WEBVTT 1 00:00:15.400 --> 00:00:33.399 Welcome to the UFO Think Tank Craigier with your host Alejandrol ro Kan. Some 2 00:00:33.520 --> 00:00:39.359 mysterious music starts us off every week. It's great stuff from a guy named 3 00:00:39.960 --> 00:00:43.280 well, a group I guess named Systematics. And this was a guy who 4 00:00:43.679 --> 00:00:48.759 was a listener of the original UFO Think Tank before it became Open Minds and 5 00:00:48.759 --> 00:00:53.159 then went back to UFO Think Tank. And I thank him so much for 6 00:00:53.280 --> 00:00:56.799 his wonderful music. It is great. There have been several people to ask 7 00:00:56.880 --> 00:00:59.479 where did you get that music? It's really cool, and I've sent them 8 00:00:59.479 --> 00:01:07.000 to a couple places, although Systematics has been hard to find lately, so 9 00:01:07.040 --> 00:01:11.280 I guess he's not making music anymore. But thank goodness for the music he 10 00:01:11.359 --> 00:01:17.640 shared with me, because I really like it, just like I really like 11 00:01:18.200 --> 00:01:23.079 you. Hello, and welcome to UFO Think Tank Radio, where we bring 12 00:01:23.120 --> 00:01:33.719 you UFO news and excellent interviews regarding the UFO phenomena and all of the surrounding 13 00:01:33.920 --> 00:01:38.799 topics, including alien abduction. And that's what we're talking about today with a 14 00:01:38.840 --> 00:01:45.680 gentleman named Mike clelland Mike is I would call him an alien abduction blogger, 15 00:01:46.799 --> 00:01:49.560 and he's a gentleman who kind of started this blog because he kind of had 16 00:01:49.599 --> 00:01:55.879 his own experiences. He also was interested in the phenomena. I've seen him 17 00:01:55.879 --> 00:02:00.599 for several years now at the UFO Congress and he's a really great guy, 18 00:02:01.000 --> 00:02:07.439 and he's done a lot of research and he's found some similarities between abductees that 19 00:02:07.479 --> 00:02:12.560 he wanted to talk about and I thought it sounded really interesting, and so 20 00:02:13.159 --> 00:02:15.800 we talked to him today. So he's got a lot of very interesting things 21 00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:22.280 to say. He's an illustrator by trade. And so if you go visit 22 00:02:22.360 --> 00:02:27.919 his website, which I hope that you do, and in fact, that's 23 00:02:27.960 --> 00:02:32.080 in the episode info if you're on the blog talk but it's called Hidden Experience 24 00:02:32.199 --> 00:02:39.800 dot blog top alright, I'm sorry, Hidden experience dot blogspot dot com. 25 00:02:40.319 --> 00:02:46.360 We're on blogtop radio. He's on blogspot dot com and we'll talk about this 26 00:02:46.560 --> 00:02:53.039 you arel a little more later. But he has these wonderful illustrations of some 27 00:02:53.120 --> 00:02:55.680 of his experiences. So how wonderful would it be to be an illustrator where 28 00:02:55.719 --> 00:03:01.159 you can illustrate some of your strange experiences, especially after they happen. And 29 00:03:01.240 --> 00:03:06.199 so we'll talk about those and you'll be able to go to the website and 30 00:03:06.280 --> 00:03:09.039 see the pictures and see what he's talking about. And I think you will 31 00:03:09.080 --> 00:03:16.560 thoroughly enjoy this discussion with Mike Clellan. I know I did. We really 32 00:03:16.719 --> 00:03:23.319 just interviewed him the other day. As you may know, our interviews are 33 00:03:23.360 --> 00:03:28.759 pre recorded typically most of the time, just because it's easier to do that, 34 00:03:28.840 --> 00:03:30.479 you know, to get people together and I can make sure and edit 35 00:03:30.560 --> 00:03:35.719 out if someone makes mistakes, fall out of their chair or something like that, 36 00:03:36.800 --> 00:03:42.800 and then I can ensure that the audio quality is superior because only the 37 00:03:42.840 --> 00:03:50.479 best. For UFO Think Tank listeners. Speaking of only the best, I 38 00:03:50.639 --> 00:03:53.719 am getting so excited, and I keep teasing this, and I'm just gonna 39 00:03:53.719 --> 00:03:58.759 tease it just for a second here. This conference that I'm cooking up for 40 00:03:58.800 --> 00:04:04.439 the first weekend of October in lovely Las Vegas at the amazing Tropicana Hotel, 41 00:04:04.840 --> 00:04:09.960 which has all been redone. It's like a club med in the middle of 42 00:04:10.039 --> 00:04:14.639 Las Vegas, right there on the strip to have these giant pools with this 43 00:04:14.759 --> 00:04:23.240 courtyard with palm trees, and you know, there's fabulous glamorous people in bikinis 44 00:04:23.279 --> 00:04:29.560 and otherwise hanging out. And then of course over the palm trees you can 45 00:04:29.600 --> 00:04:35.079 see the Luxore and the Mirage and the MGM. How exciting is this, 46 00:04:36.160 --> 00:04:41.519 Well, this is where we're going to have I think one of the most 47 00:04:41.560 --> 00:04:50.879 significant conferences in this field in a very long time. It's Cosmic Exploration Conferences 48 00:04:51.000 --> 00:04:58.639 the name and I've already got like four or five PhDs lined up, I 49 00:04:58.720 --> 00:05:02.879 have mainstream media. Yeah, we're going to have just an incredible time. 50 00:05:02.920 --> 00:05:08.199 And we're also going to have people who are into the conventional sciences, so 51 00:05:08.759 --> 00:05:15.240 for instance EXO, well exoplanets talking about these new planets that are emerging that 52 00:05:15.360 --> 00:05:23.199 may house life. Also you know SETI and what they're up to, the 53 00:05:23.240 --> 00:05:28.600 search for extraterrestrial intelligence, as well as just space, commercial space, a 54 00:05:28.639 --> 00:05:33.240 lot of really cool space related things with UFOs involved. In fact, the 55 00:05:33.319 --> 00:05:40.160 subtitle is Space, UFOs and the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence. In fact, 56 00:05:40.720 --> 00:05:46.680 we talked about this not too long ago about the Atomic Testing Museum in Las 57 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:49.199 Vegas. I've talked with them, we're working together. They recently put up 58 00:05:49.199 --> 00:05:54.000 a display about Area fifty one, and most of this display is really a 59 00:05:54.079 --> 00:05:57.079 history of UFOs. So it's great if you're going to be there, and 60 00:05:57.160 --> 00:06:00.759 of course you will in October, so you'll need to pass by and check 61 00:06:00.839 --> 00:06:03.879 that out. We've got discounted rooms and actually this conference is going to be 62 00:06:04.319 --> 00:06:08.439 much less than you're used to paying, because I want to make it. 63 00:06:09.279 --> 00:06:13.000 The whole point is to try to get as many people to come in, 64 00:06:13.040 --> 00:06:20.079 converse and network and meet with these conventional scientists as well as mainstream science and 65 00:06:20.240 --> 00:06:30.000 media to move this whole thing forward, because there are certainly media palatable information 66 00:06:30.120 --> 00:06:34.759 and events. What I mean by that is very credible stuff that even Anderson 67 00:06:34.839 --> 00:06:42.560 Cooper will not be able to bulk, you know, very substantial information, 68 00:06:43.279 --> 00:06:50.800 including psychic spies and extraterrestrials. What am I talking about? Actually, this 69 00:06:50.920 --> 00:06:54.439 isn't something that's going to be in the conference. I'm moving on here. 70 00:06:54.480 --> 00:06:58.759 This is something that is in the news, and I wrote a story on 71 00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:03.160 this in the Huffington Post and you can actually find a longer piece on ufodaily 72 00:07:03.199 --> 00:07:09.279 news dot com. And this is which some of you already know about remote 73 00:07:09.360 --> 00:07:13.959 viewing, but what you may not know, or at least may not have 74 00:07:14.120 --> 00:07:18.639 seen altogether, is the history of remote viewing and the integral or very important 75 00:07:18.639 --> 00:07:25.800 part that UFOs and extraterrestrials played, meaning that remote viewers actually looked at this 76 00:07:25.920 --> 00:07:28.959 sort of thing. Some of you may be lost, what the heck is 77 00:07:29.000 --> 00:07:36.680 a remote viewer. Well, essentially the story, the impetus for this story 78 00:07:36.759 --> 00:07:44.720 is at recently the Stanford Research Institute, which actually is now just SRII International, 79 00:07:44.759 --> 00:07:48.560 their nonprofit organization, no longer affiliated with Stanford. They were affiliated with 80 00:07:48.600 --> 00:07:54.720 Stanford in the seventies. However, you know, during the Vietnam protests, 81 00:07:55.000 --> 00:08:00.759 SRI I was doing defense work and the student at Stanford didn't appreciate that, 82 00:08:00.800 --> 00:08:09.079 I suppose, and so SRAY decided to go off on its own soon after 83 00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:13.120 that. And actually about during this time, there was a scientist, a 84 00:08:13.160 --> 00:08:20.199 physicist working on lasers and such. His name was Harold put Off, and 85 00:08:20.439 --> 00:08:26.560 he decided to look into psychic phenomena, mostly because he read this book about 86 00:08:26.560 --> 00:08:33.120 psychic phenomena in Russia. And he had a friend named Cleeve Baxter who did 87 00:08:33.159 --> 00:08:37.159 some work in this arena end and there's a lot of history, oh man, 88 00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:39.159 there's so much to all of this, but this is just a little 89 00:08:39.159 --> 00:08:45.039 tidbit. And he was working with a gentleman named Ingo Swann who worked for 90 00:08:45.120 --> 00:08:50.720 him and seemed to have some very real powerful psychic abilities. They brought him 91 00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:56.200 to Sri. Harold put Off and then his partner Russell Targa at SRI, 92 00:08:56.159 --> 00:09:01.919 another scientist, they started doing some experiments. Well, these experiments seemed to 93 00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:05.120 be going well, and they invented this thing. Ingo Swan, I guess 94 00:09:05.159 --> 00:09:11.440 coined the word remote viewing. And what this was was just sitting there and 95 00:09:11.240 --> 00:09:22.000 using their psychic abilities to actually go see objects and people and places far away. 96 00:09:22.120 --> 00:09:26.919 You know, that sounds pretty wild, but these SRI scientists were able 97 00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:33.879 to prove to themselves that this was a real phenomena. Mister Swan was accurate 98 00:09:33.000 --> 00:09:37.600 enough that something real was going on here. So the CIA got interested. 99 00:09:37.639 --> 00:09:41.879 And why did they get interested because they had read the same book that Harold 100 00:09:41.919 --> 00:09:48.159 put Off had read about Russia and them the Russian government getting involved with psychic 101 00:09:48.759 --> 00:09:52.879 research. So they decided, well, we don't want to be behind the 102 00:09:52.879 --> 00:09:56.559 gun. They started watching what Russia was doing, and then they came to 103 00:09:56.799 --> 00:10:01.039 SRI to check out what they were doing. The CIA liked what they saw. 104 00:10:01.120 --> 00:10:09.600 They thought NGO really did exhibit some real ability. So eventually years later, 105 00:10:09.519 --> 00:10:15.480 the Army Intelligence was kind of the group that the formal group where they 106 00:10:15.600 --> 00:10:22.080 decided to train some officers to learn remote viewing so that they could remote view 107 00:10:22.120 --> 00:10:28.879 things for different intelligence agencies. So they did this. You actually, if 108 00:10:28.879 --> 00:10:35.360 you're a listener to this show, you're more informed than most because I had 109 00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:39.759 Joe mcmonagle on the show not too long well actually it's probably almost a year 110 00:10:39.799 --> 00:10:43.120 ago now. But anyway, he told us all about this, and why 111 00:10:43.120 --> 00:10:50.480 would he know anything about it because he was the first guy trained in the 112 00:10:50.679 --> 00:10:54.720 Army to be a remote viewer. He was remote viewer zero zero one, 113 00:10:54.840 --> 00:10:58.200 and so he's the guy to know, right, So he told us all 114 00:10:58.279 --> 00:11:01.840 about that. Put some of the quotes from him in the story, talking 115 00:11:01.879 --> 00:11:07.360 about remote viewing a UFO and one of the projects he was working with in 116 00:11:07.440 --> 00:11:11.159 the Air Force. And then he talked about, you know, remote viewing 117 00:11:11.240 --> 00:11:18.559 ets. He felt that he had successfully remote viewed ets and told us things 118 00:11:18.600 --> 00:11:22.600 about, you know, the aliens wearing suits, that those their eyes are 119 00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:24.879 not really big and black. Those are like big old glasses that are part 120 00:11:24.919 --> 00:11:31.720 of this advanced suit that protects him, almost like a super advanced skin suit, 121 00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:37.519 perhaps similar to something we'll wear in the future in space or elsewhere or 122 00:11:37.600 --> 00:11:41.480 just at the club, you know, just to be cool. So this 123 00:11:41.639 --> 00:11:45.039 is really cool. So I wrote this up because I thought it was important 124 00:11:45.039 --> 00:11:48.639 for the public to know, as I'm sure some of you. Ingo Swan, 125 00:11:48.679 --> 00:11:52.480 by the way, wrote a book is Autobiography, and he talked about 126 00:11:52.519 --> 00:11:56.759 how he remote viewed the dark side of the Moon and saw structures and aliens 127 00:11:56.759 --> 00:12:01.279 and things there as well. So I wrote about this, and I wrote 128 00:12:01.320 --> 00:12:05.039 it up for the Huffington Posts, and then I wrote a little longer piece 129 00:12:05.120 --> 00:12:09.440 with some pictures and put that on ufodailynews dot com because really they like the 130 00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:13.720 Huffington Post box to be short and concise, to really, you know, 131 00:12:15.159 --> 00:12:18.399 because there's so much information. Some people say, oh, everybody's add I 132 00:12:18.399 --> 00:12:22.080 don't know about that, maybe a little bit, but it's also a I 133 00:12:22.080 --> 00:12:26.639 think one of the big factors is that there's a lot of information being thrown 134 00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:31.840 at us constantly, and it's hard to keep up with all that information. 135 00:12:31.879 --> 00:12:33.919 And we want to we want to know what's going on, and we want 136 00:12:33.919 --> 00:12:37.639 info, info, info, infost So you can't always spend a whole lot 137 00:12:37.679 --> 00:12:43.879 of time on one piece. So that's why I think we need a lot 138 00:12:43.919 --> 00:12:46.159 of information. You got to keep those things short, and people appreciate the 139 00:12:46.200 --> 00:12:50.080 shorter, concise things, and if they want to see more, they can 140 00:12:50.120 --> 00:12:54.600 go to Ufodailynews dot com. So anyway, that's what that's all about. 141 00:12:54.639 --> 00:12:58.080 So hopefully that'll make a little bit of a buzz and you'll see that around. 142 00:12:58.240 --> 00:13:05.080 So that's some fun news. Also in the news, Robert Kolb, 143 00:13:05.159 --> 00:13:11.080 who I told you about, the great new writer for UFO Daily News, 144 00:13:11.159 --> 00:13:18.279 he wrote a little beast on the Sun and the SOHO imager. It's just 145 00:13:18.360 --> 00:13:24.120 seeing NASA has to observe the Sun and there was kind of this little streak 146 00:13:24.120 --> 00:13:26.200 in there and that kind of made the news people thinking that perhaps that with 147 00:13:26.320 --> 00:13:31.720 the UFO some people are saying and the NASA experts are saying that it's just 148 00:13:31.799 --> 00:13:39.159 a camera artifact, that this has previously happened when cosmic rays strike the camera, 149 00:13:39.919 --> 00:13:45.679 and you know, I don't know, it kind of looks like that. 150 00:13:45.799 --> 00:13:50.480 It doesn't look like a structure, but who knows. I could be 151 00:13:50.559 --> 00:13:54.080 wrong. Anyway, Robert Cole wrote a little bit about that with a link 152 00:13:54.159 --> 00:13:58.679 to some other stories. You could see that. Also. I think I 153 00:13:58.720 --> 00:14:03.080 talked about this, but I wrote a little piece up so you can get 154 00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:09.080 more on this. But the UFOs examined on US News and World Report exactly 155 00:14:09.159 --> 00:14:11.600 what we're trying to do with this conference. Talk about space, talk about 156 00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:16.919 space science, and fit UFOs into this because that's where it belongs and it 157 00:14:16.919 --> 00:14:18.960 belongs to be taken serious. If they can take Steddi serious, they can 158 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:24.440 take this serious because there are serious people with great research, as we know, 159 00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:31.600 examining the UFO mystery. This UFO or this US News and World Report 160 00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:37.919 special edition is called Mysteries of Space and it talks about UFOs. My good 161 00:14:37.960 --> 00:14:41.960 friend Leslie Kane was interviewed and she's in here. She's the one who wrote 162 00:14:41.960 --> 00:14:48.840 the book UFOs. Generals, pilots and government officials go on the record. 163 00:14:48.240 --> 00:14:52.639 Wouldn't it be cool to see her at that conference with all of these other 164 00:14:52.679 --> 00:14:56.320 people she is. She's gonna be there, So that's one of the people 165 00:14:56.320 --> 00:15:01.360 who's going to be speaking, along with a these other scientists and such. 166 00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:03.840 This is going to be great, guys. I'm just so excited. I 167 00:15:03.840 --> 00:15:05.840 hope to see you there because it's going to be a lot of fun. 168 00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:11.639 I put a lot of work into it. This place is beautiful anyway. 169 00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:16.120 How cool is this that the US News and World Report took the subject serious? 170 00:15:16.200 --> 00:15:20.039 In fact, on the front cover they have in this red little peki 171 00:15:20.159 --> 00:15:24.240 sect sticks out, you know when you have it in the Iraq. Says 172 00:15:24.279 --> 00:15:31.480 why UFOs are dangerous because people say, you know that there's no defense interest 173 00:15:31.519 --> 00:15:35.600 when it comes to UFOs, that there's no danger posed. And some people 174 00:15:35.639 --> 00:15:39.440 such as Nick Pope Poo investigated UFOs for the Ministry of Defense, disagree. 175 00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:43.279 If we've got things flying around in the sky, we don't know what they 176 00:15:43.320 --> 00:15:48.919 are, they're flying fast here and there, doesn't that pose some sort of 177 00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:52.919 danger at least shouldn't that be something that we look seriously into. Of course, 178 00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:56.600 the argument is and perhaps, and I think some people argue that, 179 00:15:56.960 --> 00:16:02.200 well, the Air Force knows about them. They believe they're there, but 180 00:16:02.279 --> 00:16:07.440 they haven't heard anybody, so that's why they're not concerned. Granted, okay, 181 00:16:07.799 --> 00:16:11.840 that could be. However, still isn't it something that we should keep 182 00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:15.240 an eye on, especially because it's something we don't control and we don't know 183 00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:23.519 what could happen. So that's the angle that's approached Usually there not necessarily that 184 00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:30.399 we need to fear an invasion, although of course there's people who believe that 185 00:16:30.639 --> 00:16:36.279 as well. Other stories that are out there. I'm going to write one 186 00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:42.679 and you can see it a little bit out here about these UFOs over Cyprus, 187 00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:47.919 and there's a video out there of these lights over Cyprus. Actually, 188 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:52.120 Robert Cole, this great writer for UFA Daily News dot com, he wrote 189 00:16:52.159 --> 00:16:56.840 a story about Cyprus and sightings that have happened over there recently. So I'm 190 00:16:56.840 --> 00:17:00.480 gonna be posting that tomorrow. That's really cool. You'll want to check that 191 00:17:00.519 --> 00:17:06.599 out tomorrow. However, remember you can see these stories in the UFO news 192 00:17:06.599 --> 00:17:11.240 feed on the website, and you can go and see this video and see 193 00:17:11.240 --> 00:17:15.480 what you think just kind of these white lights over Cyprus. There's another story 194 00:17:15.640 --> 00:17:25.720 on did a UFO land on Canuck Chase in Staffordshire. Of course, this 195 00:17:25.759 --> 00:17:30.160 is across the waters in England. And this is a case that supposedly happened 196 00:17:30.160 --> 00:17:34.000 in nineteen sixty four. It was written in a book recently where a USO 197 00:17:34.599 --> 00:17:41.440 Navy third class Petty Officer Brannigan said that he saw a UFO crash and some 198 00:17:41.079 --> 00:17:45.359 bodies be collected from there, and this was written in a book. There's 199 00:17:45.400 --> 00:17:49.240 another witness. He says he took a picture of this incident, but his 200 00:17:49.359 --> 00:17:55.960 camera was then taken away and so a mystery. Did this really happen? 201 00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:02.200 Who knows? So I guess allegedly this a triangular shaped craft. So you 202 00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:07.799 can read more about that was that was in the Sunday Mercury, an English 203 00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:12.400 paper, the Daily Mail. You know those guys, they're always up to 204 00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:18.319 something. Lithuania. They had posted a story with some pictures of a ufo. 205 00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:22.160 Really it's just a light in the skies and they say, you know, 206 00:18:22.200 --> 00:18:27.319 it looks like a cop car and the sky a police car and the 207 00:18:27.400 --> 00:18:33.480 sky with the lights all changing and flickering. Not a whole lot about the 208 00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:38.160 sighting is in here, just that it lasted four minutes and these people were 209 00:18:38.319 --> 00:18:42.680 really shocked by it. But short story. Then it goes into the Soho 210 00:18:42.839 --> 00:18:48.799 Sun story mostly, but that's in the Daily Mail also the Huffington Post. 211 00:18:48.519 --> 00:18:53.920 Huffington Post rocks. I gotta tell you how awesome these guys are, and 212 00:18:55.000 --> 00:19:00.799 how awesome Lee Spiegel is. And he's got another story about triangle shaped UFOs 213 00:19:00.839 --> 00:19:07.240 over the United States, England and Australia, and so he's of course these 214 00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:12.759 are made a big hit and they were called Dorito shaped objects. But he 215 00:19:12.880 --> 00:19:18.960 wrote a story about some triangular UFOs that have been spotted and were filmed lately, 216 00:19:19.039 --> 00:19:26.920 including one over London in April, a couple of them actually in April, 217 00:19:27.160 --> 00:19:33.440 one in Missouri, another one in Australia. So he's got a story 218 00:19:33.480 --> 00:19:38.960 on the Huffington Post all about these sightings. And speaking of Lee, everybody's 219 00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:44.920 heard of or may remember Ripley's believe it or not. Lee actually is on 220 00:19:44.960 --> 00:19:48.200 their radio show quite a bit, and they have this website because they're still 221 00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:55.200 around. You can check out their website just Ripley's dot com. But they 222 00:19:55.240 --> 00:20:00.799 wrote a story about Lee Spiegel winning UFO Researcher of the Year at the UFO 223 00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:03.559 Congress. How cool is that? So they had that on their page with 224 00:20:03.640 --> 00:20:08.039 the picture of Lee. And so that's some of what's going on in the 225 00:20:08.079 --> 00:20:12.000 news. Remember you can always keep up with the latest and greatest in UFO 226 00:20:12.079 --> 00:20:18.319 news at Ufodailynews dot com and the UFO newsfeed area, which is actually also 227 00:20:18.359 --> 00:20:22.200 the Twitter feed. If you want to be updated throughout the day, you 228 00:20:22.200 --> 00:20:26.200 know, you can join the Twitter and be updated. I also have the 229 00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:30.880 Paranormal Reporter one that's a Twitter feed with all paranormal news, and then the 230 00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:37.240 UFO Daily News. We mostly are strictly UFO News. So that's some of 231 00:20:37.279 --> 00:20:42.680 what's going on out there, exciting stuff people. But without further ado, 232 00:20:42.759 --> 00:20:48.240 I really want to get into this interview with Mike Clellan because he's got a 233 00:20:48.240 --> 00:20:52.039 lot of really interesting things to say. Hello. I'm very happy to have 234 00:20:53.200 --> 00:20:57.240 Mike Clellan on the line with me. Hello Mike, Hello, Elandra, 235 00:20:57.279 --> 00:21:02.440 how are you great? And you know you contacted me recently and we have 236 00:21:02.559 --> 00:21:07.759 been conversing, but I certainly do remember you from the UFO Congress is the 237 00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:11.599 last few years? Good good, you know it's I've made an effort to 238 00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:21.799 go to that that conference in particular, mostly just because the length of time. 239 00:21:22.359 --> 00:21:27.319 It's one of the longer conferences. And I just find that just interacting 240 00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:30.240 with the people on a day to day basis, you know, less so 241 00:21:30.920 --> 00:21:36.440 sitting in the audience and listening to the speakers give a presentation, but more 242 00:21:36.559 --> 00:21:40.759 so interacting with the people who attend. I just find that really rewarding. 243 00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:42.240 I get a lot out from that. I get a lot back from that. 244 00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:45.400 I got to do a lot of networking and getting to talk to people 245 00:21:45.480 --> 00:21:49.279 one on one. It's nice to meet people maybe you've talked to online or 246 00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:53.720 I have heard about and at the same time, it's nice to meet people 247 00:21:53.759 --> 00:22:00.799 who are, you know, there for the same reasons that they just need 248 00:22:00.839 --> 00:22:03.799 that, uh, I guess sort of kinship in a way. And uh 249 00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:07.720 and so yeah, so I definitely benefit greatly from from my uh my week 250 00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:12.759 long pilgrimage every year down there. Yeah, well, one day, one 251 00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:19.039 time, I hope to one day just be kind of a someone to go 252 00:22:19.240 --> 00:22:23.440 and experience a conference instead of having to work. I'm I don't think I've 253 00:22:23.440 --> 00:22:26.720 been to one where I haven't had to really work a lot, and so 254 00:22:26.759 --> 00:22:33.079 they're usually pretty busy and hectic for me. So one day, yes, 255 00:22:33.160 --> 00:22:36.920 And and when you're an attendee, one of the nice things you can do, 256 00:22:37.160 --> 00:22:40.079 and I did it more than once, is I just went out under 257 00:22:40.079 --> 00:22:42.440 the lawn there and I laid down on the grass and and you know, 258 00:22:42.480 --> 00:22:45.039 took a short nap. So that was very nice, you know, coming 259 00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:48.839 from I was coming from Idaho, where you can't quite do that. In 260 00:22:48.279 --> 00:22:53.160 February mm hmm. All right, So getting into your interests in all of 261 00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:59.799 this, you, before you began sharing your experiences, which you do now, 262 00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:03.759 and we'll certainly get into that, you began to kind of be interested 263 00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:11.279 in abductions and reading that material, and you've really kind of been able to 264 00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:19.200 see some similarities in people's experiences. Well, the abduction lore is what has 265 00:23:19.319 --> 00:23:25.920 fascinated me over the last oh, I will say, over twenty years now, 266 00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:32.319 since you know, just shortly after the publication of Communion. Now, 267 00:23:32.319 --> 00:23:36.519 that book did not resonate with me initially when I first saw it. I 268 00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:41.680 did remember thinking it was very curious that on every single page of that book 269 00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:47.359 it did say a true story, which I did notice that I didn't read 270 00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:52.599 the book until I don't think nineteen ninety two. But yeah, I had 271 00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:59.039 some experiences in my youth that I could always tell about. I could tell 272 00:23:59.079 --> 00:24:02.200 them, you know, around campfire, around at dinner table, and I 273 00:24:02.200 --> 00:24:03.279 could tell them in sort of a way that that I could just say, 274 00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:07.480 Oh, isn't this interesting. Here's a funny story I have, And I 275 00:24:07.519 --> 00:24:10.279 felt like I was telling them honestly, but at the same time, I 276 00:24:10.319 --> 00:24:18.680 didn't trust the implications of the stories. I just told them as sort of 277 00:24:18.039 --> 00:24:22.960 a funny little you know, a little part of a conversation in a way. 278 00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:33.160 And I found that starting probably about nineteen ninety I started reading books on 279 00:24:33.319 --> 00:24:41.559 the abduction subject. And then that's almost exclusively what I read was, you 280 00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:44.640 know, I'll say things on the I read a lot of channel books and 281 00:24:44.680 --> 00:24:48.039 a lot of paranormal books, and a lot of books on consciousness as well 282 00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:57.160 as UFO books and specifically the abduction subject. So that was, you know, 283 00:24:57.279 --> 00:25:02.079 that has continued until this day. I get this sense that at the 284 00:25:02.160 --> 00:25:07.920 beginning you were skeptical of the abduction stories or scenario. Is that true, 285 00:25:07.359 --> 00:25:11.079 Well, not so much skeptical, but I would I have always kept an 286 00:25:11.079 --> 00:25:15.480 open mind as far as like what the actual reality was. You know, 287 00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:22.039 the very simplistic conclusion would be that their metal spaceships from another planet that have 288 00:25:22.119 --> 00:25:27.759 a little scientists on them that are landing here and doing some sort of study, 289 00:25:27.960 --> 00:25:32.119 some sort of scientific study, just like we would fly in on a 290 00:25:32.119 --> 00:25:37.160 helicopter into Yellowstone National Park and then study the grizzly bear. I recognized that 291 00:25:37.640 --> 00:25:42.720 what that was was sort of anthropomorphizing, like we were seeing the phenomena in 292 00:25:42.880 --> 00:25:48.799 totally terms that we can wrap our mind around, like basically that's us. 293 00:25:48.559 --> 00:25:52.839 And I thought that was simplistic. And I remember reading the trilogy of Jacques 294 00:25:52.839 --> 00:25:57.839 Frola books, and that had a very profound impact on the way I have 295 00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:03.839 framed the phenomena. So so I've always been very aware that something profound is 296 00:26:03.880 --> 00:26:08.799 going on, though I'm cautious to give it the label that that, you 297 00:26:08.839 --> 00:26:12.480 know, the easy label you know that very well might be exactly what's happening, 298 00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:19.599 though I I just want to remain open minded to what the what the 299 00:26:18.359 --> 00:26:25.000 uh the source of the phenomena is. Now, you have read a lot, 300 00:26:25.160 --> 00:26:29.319 You've met a lot of people and heard their stories, and have you 301 00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:36.799 been able then to see similarities in these stories that perhaps aren't typically written about 302 00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:42.039 things that you what's hit you and given you in a perhaps something that's a 303 00:26:42.039 --> 00:26:45.960 little different than what's out there. It sounds like you kind of have seen 304 00:26:47.599 --> 00:26:53.200 stuff that isn't as popularly written about or in the mythology, you know. 305 00:26:53.319 --> 00:27:00.720 I think that the there's a there's a you know, a bookshelf, you 306 00:27:00.759 --> 00:27:04.200 know, in any good bookstore that has you know, abduction UFO stories on 307 00:27:04.240 --> 00:27:08.640 it. And if you pick up those books, they are you know, 308 00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:12.680 written by researchers, or they're written by people who claim the first person experience. 309 00:27:14.200 --> 00:27:18.559 And I found that the researchers sort of tell one story and then the 310 00:27:18.599 --> 00:27:23.240 people who have the first person experience tell another story. The researchers are very 311 00:27:23.759 --> 00:27:27.559 understandably and they're not doing anything wrong in a way, but they're understandably very 312 00:27:27.599 --> 00:27:37.440 cautious to you know, to tell every bizarre, strange story that that is 313 00:27:37.599 --> 00:27:45.039 that's part of the phenomena. And the you know, the person who's having 314 00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:52.920 the experience themselves will often you know, have outlining strange experiences, you know, 315 00:27:52.960 --> 00:27:59.240 experiences of high strangeness that that don't often get reported in the mainstream literature. 316 00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:03.000 And I mean, for one example is just synchronicity is something that I 317 00:28:03.079 --> 00:28:07.319 ask people about when I talk to them, I say, you know, 318 00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:11.960 you know, what's what's what do you think of synchronicity in And people who 319 00:28:11.160 --> 00:28:17.599 claim the abduction experience will literally you know, I remember one woman just kind 320 00:28:17.599 --> 00:28:18.839 of like laughing, just she kind of threw, you know, kind of 321 00:28:18.839 --> 00:28:22.279 slapped her knee and kind of laughed out loud. She says, oh, 322 00:28:22.279 --> 00:28:26.680 my gosh, my synchronicities are off the charts there over the top. And 323 00:28:26.119 --> 00:28:30.039 you know, a synchronicity, I mean, it's a coincidence. It's a 324 00:28:30.039 --> 00:28:34.599 coincidence that has a profound meeting meaning to the person at the receiving end of 325 00:28:34.599 --> 00:28:41.680 the synchronicity. But you know, they're very mystical experiences, and mystical in 326 00:28:41.720 --> 00:28:45.839 a way that that you know, where is that event emerging from? You 327 00:28:45.880 --> 00:28:49.240 know, I don't think that the grizzly bears, after being released by the 328 00:28:49.319 --> 00:28:53.319 nice scientists who who darted them and did a little medical exam on them in 329 00:28:53.400 --> 00:29:00.720 Yellowstone National Park then you know, walk away from their experience and have synchronicities. 330 00:29:02.200 --> 00:29:07.440 So something is going on that is very real, that is very much 331 00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:18.079 a pattern and gets reported consistently by people at the receiving end of of the 332 00:29:18.119 --> 00:29:22.519 abduction experience. I think you've said some interesting things there, especially in seeing 333 00:29:22.559 --> 00:29:29.079 the different difference between what the researchers rights as opposed to the first person accounts. 334 00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:32.759 I think that's great because you're right, and I can sympathize with the 335 00:29:32.799 --> 00:29:40.839 researchers who are kind of framing looking for answers. But Valet is an example 336 00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:45.400 of someone who identified there's a lot of stuff that's being shoved to the site 337 00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:48.400 that just because it's uncomfortable, but it's got to be a part of this 338 00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:53.720 phenomena, even if it points to things we can't understand yet in your case 339 00:29:55.039 --> 00:29:59.759 synchronicities. I think of Leo Sprinkle, who you know and have interviewed. 340 00:29:59.759 --> 00:30:03.839 I know, at least he used to talk about what he found fascinating as 341 00:30:03.319 --> 00:30:11.279 the vast number of abductees who after their experiences were experiencers, as he called 342 00:30:11.319 --> 00:30:18.759 them, believed in reincarnation. There was just this huge shift in their beliefs 343 00:30:18.759 --> 00:30:22.599 where so many believed in reincarnation, and that was kind of something that's kind 344 00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:29.680 of shoved under the carpet, but it's something he was able to stistically show 345 00:30:30.200 --> 00:30:34.000 was a significant change in a lot of these people. Yeah, and when 346 00:30:34.039 --> 00:30:38.400 I and I've worked with doctor Sprinkle, he's tried to hypnotize me at one 347 00:30:38.440 --> 00:30:42.079 point. I've spoken with him a bunch of times on the phone as well 348 00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:45.440 as in person. I live in Idaho and he lives in Wyoming, so 349 00:30:45.519 --> 00:30:52.519 by Western standards were actually pretty close. And he has been doing the same 350 00:30:55.240 --> 00:31:00.599 survey, the same questionnaire for over fifty years now. He started in nineteen 351 00:31:00.680 --> 00:31:06.039 sixty one with this questionnaire when who's a professor I think at that time at 352 00:31:06.039 --> 00:31:11.039 the University of Wyoming, And since then he's basically been using the same set 353 00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:15.279 of questions so he has fifty years of data, which is excuse me, 354 00:31:15.279 --> 00:31:19.839 now, fifty one years of data. And if I'm not mistaken, he 355 00:31:21.000 --> 00:31:29.680 says that the uh, the belief in reincarnation is at at one hundred percent 356 00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:33.839 you know where where. That seems extremely strange. I think you're right, 357 00:31:34.039 --> 00:31:37.240 yeah, or if not one hundred percent, you know close enough statistically to 358 00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:41.880 you know, imply one hundred percent. So that's yeah, I agree, 359 00:31:41.880 --> 00:31:45.039 that's fascinating. And one of the things that you know, I worked with 360 00:31:45.160 --> 00:31:49.519 Bud Hopkins a little bit, and I had lived in New York for a 361 00:31:49.519 --> 00:31:55.079 long time, so I was visiting New York so and I spoke with him, 362 00:31:55.880 --> 00:32:00.200 and he I think he was He's an incredibly hind sweet man. And 363 00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:04.880 it's a loss to the not just the UFO field, but the art field 364 00:32:04.920 --> 00:32:08.519 and just you know, just our fellow humans that he's no longer with us. 365 00:32:09.519 --> 00:32:14.240 But you know, in his work, in his research, I you 366 00:32:14.240 --> 00:32:16.839 know, I can say that he was very cautious how he presented the information, 367 00:32:16.880 --> 00:32:22.160 and I think he was extremely self aware of the role he was playing 368 00:32:22.720 --> 00:32:30.599 as the mouthpiece, like the the the go to person about the abduction phenomena. 369 00:32:30.359 --> 00:32:34.359 So he you know, because I basically asked him, I said, 370 00:32:34.359 --> 00:32:37.319 oh my god, I'm having these synchronicities. And then he would sort of 371 00:32:37.359 --> 00:32:39.400 say, you know, don't look too much into that synchronicity stuff, and 372 00:32:39.440 --> 00:32:43.599 you know, well, I you know that, you know why, I 373 00:32:43.640 --> 00:32:45.960 hear what you're saying, and then he would almost dismiss it. But at 374 00:32:45.960 --> 00:32:50.880 the same time, he would then follow up with a story of one of 375 00:32:50.920 --> 00:32:53.440 his patients that would have had a very profound synchronicity. So he was very 376 00:32:53.440 --> 00:32:59.079 aware of it. And you know, he did that with the if I 377 00:32:59.079 --> 00:33:01.640 don't know, if you've read his final book on UFOs, which was called 378 00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:07.119 Sight Unseen, where he definitely dives pretty deep into the really weird stuff. 379 00:33:07.680 --> 00:33:13.400 So and I can't you know, I can use as an example of someone 380 00:33:13.400 --> 00:33:15.680 who is cautious of how he presented his data. At the same time, 381 00:33:15.720 --> 00:33:20.359 in his final book, Boy, he shared some of the strangest stories that 382 00:33:20.400 --> 00:33:23.319 I've ever read, and that was sort of the premise of the book, 383 00:33:23.359 --> 00:33:29.279 that something is going on that can create these events of high strangeness. So 384 00:33:29.400 --> 00:33:34.559 getting into the synchronicities, I guess I just so people can understand what you 385 00:33:34.640 --> 00:33:42.319 mean by that, and maybe some examples oh, well, the term synchronicity 386 00:33:42.480 --> 00:33:50.200 was coined by Carl Jung, who was a contemporary of Freud, and he 387 00:33:50.279 --> 00:33:55.799 was noticing in his work that like profound coincidences were showing up, and that 388 00:33:55.880 --> 00:34:02.359 these coincidences would manifest in a way that were extremely relevant to either himself or 389 00:34:02.400 --> 00:34:08.079 to his patience. And so I'm not sure exactly what the how he let 390 00:34:08.119 --> 00:34:12.880 me just I might have a little dictionary definition here of the term synchronicity. 391 00:34:13.800 --> 00:34:19.199 Yeah, so it's the simultaneous occurrence of events that appear significantly related but have 392 00:34:19.440 --> 00:34:29.639 no discernible, discernible causal connection. So and I guess we can all say 393 00:34:29.679 --> 00:34:31.800 that we've had the funny thing where you know, the phone rings and you 394 00:34:31.800 --> 00:34:34.800 think, oh, that must be Joe, and you pick it up, 395 00:34:34.800 --> 00:34:37.679 and sure enough it's Joe. You know that, on one level, would 396 00:34:37.960 --> 00:34:43.360 would be a synchronousy that would be very easily dismissed by anyone experiencing it as 397 00:34:43.480 --> 00:34:49.440 just a coincidence. In order to tell a really profound synchronosy, yet I 398 00:34:49.480 --> 00:34:52.639 would probably need to share a story that happened to me in nineteen seventy four. 399 00:34:53.800 --> 00:34:57.280 Should I just go ahead and do that? Go for it? Okay. 400 00:34:57.360 --> 00:35:00.079 In nineteen seventy four, I was twelve years old. I'm just about 401 00:35:00.119 --> 00:35:07.480 fifty now, and I was living in the suburbs of Detroit, and I 402 00:35:07.519 --> 00:35:12.239 went to a high school football game near my house, and that was with 403 00:35:12.320 --> 00:35:15.519 a friend of mine and his name, I'm just gonna use a pseudonym. 404 00:35:15.559 --> 00:35:22.119 I'm gonna call him Mike Lewis. And there was a television show that started 405 00:35:22.199 --> 00:35:24.880 at ten o'clock at night, and I knew I wanted to be home in 406 00:35:24.920 --> 00:35:29.880 time for that television show, so I left the football game with plenty of 407 00:35:29.880 --> 00:35:36.440 time to see the football game, excuse me to see the television show that 408 00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:38.159 was on at ten o'clock. And that was a television show. Anyone my 409 00:35:38.199 --> 00:35:43.840 age will probably remember it. It's called Coleshak The Nightstalker. And I am 410 00:35:45.199 --> 00:35:46.559 you know, I should have been home to my house, which was just 411 00:35:46.599 --> 00:35:52.000 a little bit less than a half mile from the football stadium or for the 412 00:35:52.039 --> 00:35:54.519 football field there at the high school. I should have been home at about 413 00:35:54.679 --> 00:36:00.920 nine to thirty. And what happened was I was walking down the street and 414 00:36:00.960 --> 00:36:05.800 there was a girl who lived just down the street and around the corner from 415 00:36:05.840 --> 00:36:08.239 me, and her name is Cindy Gale, and that's also a pseudonym. 416 00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:15.880 And the event took place in front of her house. I feel confidently I 417 00:36:15.880 --> 00:36:20.119 could go back there with a piece of chalk and put an X on the 418 00:36:20.159 --> 00:36:25.920 sidewalk to the inch where it happened. And what I experienced with my friend 419 00:36:25.960 --> 00:36:32.519 Mike was a bright orange flash in the sky and it felt like and this 420 00:36:32.679 --> 00:36:40.480 was a calm, beautiful autumn evening in the Midwest, and I the way 421 00:36:40.519 --> 00:36:44.440 I perceived it, it felt like God flipped the light switch. The sky 422 00:36:44.599 --> 00:36:49.039 was lit up bright, iridescent orange for one second, and then God flipped 423 00:36:49.039 --> 00:36:53.039 the light switch off. It was totally silent. It was very jarring at 424 00:36:53.079 --> 00:36:55.559 the time. I remember when me and my friend Mike, you talked about 425 00:36:55.599 --> 00:36:59.880 meteors, We talked about lightning, We talked about could have been an explosion 426 00:37:00.480 --> 00:37:02.599 like over the horizon a little bit. None of those things made sense. 427 00:37:02.679 --> 00:37:07.719 It was far stranger than that. When I got home, I walked into 428 00:37:07.760 --> 00:37:12.559 the house and my parents were angry at me, and that took me completely 429 00:37:12.639 --> 00:37:14.920 by surprise. And I was like, well, what are you angry at 430 00:37:14.960 --> 00:37:17.440 me for? And they were very adamant. They said, you are out 431 00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:21.159 too late. You're too young to be out this late. And I was 432 00:37:21.159 --> 00:37:22.119 like, well, it's only nine thirty. This is the time I told 433 00:37:22.119 --> 00:37:24.800 you i'd be home. And they pointed to the clock and they said, 434 00:37:24.840 --> 00:37:30.480 no, it's getting close to eleven thirty and the and I remember very clearly 435 00:37:30.519 --> 00:37:34.400 that the eleven o'clock news was ending at that time, and at the time 436 00:37:34.440 --> 00:37:37.239 I thought nothing of it. I was just bummed out that I didn't get 437 00:37:37.239 --> 00:37:44.000 to see that television show. So let's fast forward. Well, I'll also 438 00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:49.320 add that the next Monday in school that the football games were on Friday night. 439 00:37:49.360 --> 00:37:52.760 The next Monday in school, I was sitting with a bunch of friends, 440 00:37:52.800 --> 00:37:58.119 including Mike Lewis, and I said, hey, you know, something 441 00:37:58.119 --> 00:38:01.559 odd happened on Friday night. And then Mike Lewis just chimed in and he 442 00:38:01.559 --> 00:38:06.119 said, yeah, we saw UFO with lights and everything. And I remember 443 00:38:06.159 --> 00:38:09.760 at the time thinking, wait a minute, now, I didn't see UFO 444 00:38:10.400 --> 00:38:15.760 and he must be lying. He's obviously exaggerating. He's he's exaggerating just to 445 00:38:15.800 --> 00:38:20.039 show off in front of our friends. And I dropped it and I never 446 00:38:20.079 --> 00:38:25.599 brought it up with him again. So shortly after this event, like I 447 00:38:25.599 --> 00:38:30.119 think it was somewhere while I was still in junior high school. Cindy Gale 448 00:38:30.760 --> 00:38:38.239 moved from that house and I started a blog. I'll also add under curiously 449 00:38:38.239 --> 00:38:45.920 synchronistic circumstances in March of two thousand and nine. So so my blog, 450 00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:53.840 my website is just a little over three years old now, and I I 451 00:38:53.880 --> 00:38:59.119 had a bunch of really nice synchronistic stories to tell. Initially, you know, 452 00:38:59.239 --> 00:39:00.719 I have a bunch of us, some funny ones that are cute and 453 00:39:00.800 --> 00:39:04.480 kind of have a They make perfect blog posts, you know, they're short, 454 00:39:04.519 --> 00:39:07.159 they have a little punchline. But there came a day when I realized 455 00:39:07.159 --> 00:39:12.519 I had to post the story I just told you, the Missing Time story. 456 00:39:12.760 --> 00:39:16.679 Now, I had read enough UFO books by two thousand and nine to 457 00:39:16.760 --> 00:39:23.079 know exactly what that implied. That story I just shared with you, and 458 00:39:23.119 --> 00:39:29.559 in putting it online and using my real name, I was in essence saying 459 00:39:29.599 --> 00:39:31.840 to the world, I'm insane, if you know what I mean. So 460 00:39:32.400 --> 00:39:37.440 I was very nervous. So I went to put it on the blog, 461 00:39:37.480 --> 00:39:40.199 and there's a very simple format. You cut and paste and drop the dialogue 462 00:39:40.199 --> 00:39:45.880 in and drop the text in. And along with this, I had an 463 00:39:45.960 --> 00:39:51.920 image taken from Google Earth of Cindy Gale's house and I took a yellow you 464 00:39:51.960 --> 00:39:55.119 know, used Photoshop and just put a yellow X that image. So I 465 00:39:55.199 --> 00:40:02.599 was looking at Cindy Gale's house and I was sitting there getting ready to complete 466 00:40:02.639 --> 00:40:06.119 the blog post, right, you know, I just push a button and 467 00:40:06.119 --> 00:40:10.519 you say, you know, put online, and my hands were above the 468 00:40:10.599 --> 00:40:16.039 keyboard, and I was a coward. I just I just said it to 469 00:40:16.079 --> 00:40:20.000 myself. I said, I'm not brave enough. And at that moment, 470 00:40:20.519 --> 00:40:27.280 there was a little ping from the from my email account, and I said, 471 00:40:27.280 --> 00:40:30.800 oh, I'm just gonna just just a great Now I can just avoid, 472 00:40:30.360 --> 00:40:32.159 you know, doing this thing that's making me nervous. And I'll just 473 00:40:32.199 --> 00:40:40.880 check my email. And the email that that that I received said Cynthia Gail 474 00:40:42.119 --> 00:40:45.760 wants to be your friend on Facebook. Wow. And I hadn't talked to 475 00:40:45.800 --> 00:40:50.400 her in thirty I think it was thirty six years. I should figure that 476 00:40:50.440 --> 00:40:57.199 out. So flipped out. So I flipped out, I kind of I 477 00:40:57.280 --> 00:40:59.320 it was you know, what it reminded me of was like, you know, 478 00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:00.960 when the beginning of the Wonderful World of Disney, when Tinker Belts kind 479 00:41:00.960 --> 00:41:04.920 of zaps or magic wand and the sparkles go everywhere. Yeah, so I 480 00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:07.760 was kind of it felt like there was disney dust kind of like floating in 481 00:41:07.800 --> 00:41:10.679 my you know, as I was sitting in front of the computer. It 482 00:41:10.760 --> 00:41:15.159 was absolutely magical. Now, let me just I'm gona add one more story 483 00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:21.760 to this. Now. Later that summer in two thousand and nine, I 484 00:41:21.800 --> 00:41:27.159 was feeling pretty anxious, so I did something that I that I do sometimes 485 00:41:27.239 --> 00:41:30.840 just to chill out, and I went hiking alone in the mountains. I 486 00:41:30.840 --> 00:41:34.719 live right near Grand Teton National Park, So I went out hiking alone and 487 00:41:35.000 --> 00:41:40.280 I slept out under the stars. And this would have been in July. 488 00:41:40.599 --> 00:41:45.159 I could figure out the date exactly. But and I carry a little voice 489 00:41:45.159 --> 00:41:49.360 recorder with me because sometimes when I sleep outside, I have very profound dreams. 490 00:41:50.079 --> 00:41:52.199 And I remember before going to bed, I did something that was unusual. 491 00:41:52.320 --> 00:41:57.360 I said into the voice recorder. I said, listen, I'm tired. 492 00:41:57.920 --> 00:42:00.480 I can't take this anymore. I cannot take this not knowing anymore. 493 00:42:01.199 --> 00:42:07.400 It's fatiguing me, and I just need some confirmation that this is real. 494 00:42:07.519 --> 00:42:10.760 On one level, I guess I was sort of asking the universe to like 495 00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:14.159 have a flying saucer land in front of me, and just you know, 496 00:42:14.199 --> 00:42:17.599 prove it once and for all. I went to bed that night. You 497 00:42:17.599 --> 00:42:21.320 can hear me on the voice recording, which I've posted on my blog, 498 00:42:22.079 --> 00:42:25.559 that I say it is a little bit before ten o'clock. I think that's 499 00:42:25.559 --> 00:42:29.119 what I say. And then it was a beautiful night, and I sort 500 00:42:29.159 --> 00:42:34.039 of explained where I was lying down. And the next morning I woke up 501 00:42:34.079 --> 00:42:36.480 nothing, no dreams, know nothing. I walked back to the house. 502 00:42:36.519 --> 00:42:39.559 It was a perfectly lovely walk through the trails in the mountains. And I 503 00:42:39.559 --> 00:42:45.559 get back to my house and I check my email, and at nine forty 504 00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:49.519 eight pm the night before, a little before ten o'clock, I got an 505 00:42:49.559 --> 00:42:57.840 email that said Mike Lewis wants to be your friend on Facebook. And I 506 00:42:57.880 --> 00:43:05.519 hadn't talked to him since nineteen eighty since high school graduation, So that was 507 00:43:05.559 --> 00:43:08.480 twenty nine years before. Wow, when was the last time you had talked 508 00:43:08.519 --> 00:43:14.119 to Cindy. The last time I had talked to Cindy was probably in junior 509 00:43:14.159 --> 00:43:17.119 high school in nineteen seventy five. Wow, and just get this Facebook thing. 510 00:43:19.320 --> 00:43:23.159 So yes, So those synchronicities, what they did in essence was. 511 00:43:23.280 --> 00:43:30.880 They allowed the doubts about that event to melt away, and I felt like 512 00:43:30.920 --> 00:43:37.800 I could more, I could trust them. I basically had such profoundly shocking 513 00:43:37.480 --> 00:43:43.400 mystical experience that it was like being slapped upside the head in one sense that 514 00:43:43.519 --> 00:43:49.960 I was forced to pay very close attention to that experience in nineteen seventy four, 515 00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:54.599 the missing time experience, and I was forced to trust it that, 516 00:43:54.679 --> 00:43:58.559 you know, because I had so many doubts about that experience. Obviously, 517 00:43:58.559 --> 00:44:04.079 you know, memory thirty some odd years later is is is flawed and and 518 00:44:04.159 --> 00:44:07.440 I didn't know quite what to think of that memory. But now, after 519 00:44:07.480 --> 00:44:14.599 having those two very profound synchronistic experiences, I, you know, I feel 520 00:44:14.679 --> 00:44:20.719 much more confident saying that something extremely strange and out of the out of the 521 00:44:20.760 --> 00:44:25.159 norm happened that night. And what, as you speculate, do you think 522 00:44:25.599 --> 00:44:30.559 happened? How did this happen? Well, I mean, obviously I've read 523 00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:37.000 enough UFO books to say that you know, this was a UFO abduction scenario, 524 00:44:37.960 --> 00:44:43.280 But I don't have the direct memory. I've attempted hypnosis a few times 525 00:44:43.400 --> 00:44:51.119 with no results. So but until I can have that that memory or have 526 00:44:51.239 --> 00:44:58.639 some sort of memory that feels honest. I just can't say. You know, 527 00:44:58.840 --> 00:45:00.840 I can speculate all you know whatever, I mean, you know, 528 00:45:00.920 --> 00:45:06.280 parallel dimensions and whatnot. But I mean, it's certainly the implication is certainly 529 00:45:06.280 --> 00:45:10.320 that that U that it was a some sort of UFO event that involved in 530 00:45:10.400 --> 00:45:15.960 abduction. I am very hesitant to say that just because I don't have the 531 00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:19.559 director right. It just doesn't feel honest in my gut to say that, 532 00:45:19.840 --> 00:45:22.079 Well, what about the synchronicity? What do you think that was? What 533 00:45:22.239 --> 00:45:27.079 is that? How did that? What did you think that? Was it 534 00:45:27.159 --> 00:45:31.639 just that very curious, mystical type of experience or did you read anything else 535 00:45:31.679 --> 00:45:37.039 into it? Oh? I read exact I read. I read what I 536 00:45:37.079 --> 00:45:43.159 read into it that it was a confirmation that my doubts about that experience, 537 00:45:45.280 --> 00:45:49.280 you know, that I should I should dismiss those doubts, and that I 538 00:45:49.280 --> 00:45:53.159 should trust that something very strange happened that night, you know, so that 539 00:45:53.199 --> 00:45:57.599 you know, I guess I'm repeating myself. But the but the the synchronicity 540 00:45:58.079 --> 00:46:04.280 was saying that there's something more at play here, you know than the late 541 00:46:04.360 --> 00:46:07.199 night television documentary which I think we've all seen, where they have the scary 542 00:46:07.280 --> 00:46:10.079 music, and it's only a half hour long, so they can't really tell 543 00:46:10.119 --> 00:46:15.000 the story completely, but they have a you know that they tell the story 544 00:46:15.039 --> 00:46:19.119 of a UFO abduction, but they tell it so simplistically that we the audience 545 00:46:19.159 --> 00:46:23.239 has just left to conclude that it's you know, aliens from some other planet 546 00:46:23.280 --> 00:46:28.119 here visiting us there, and they're just playing the role of scientists, just 547 00:46:28.119 --> 00:46:34.039 like we would play. What I was left to conclude was something more mysterious 548 00:46:34.280 --> 00:46:39.440 is at work here with that synchronicity. Do you have any idea behind the 549 00:46:39.639 --> 00:46:45.719 genesis? For example, do you think it was or do you speculate or 550 00:46:45.719 --> 00:46:51.400 do you even feel like you just don't know? It had a reaction, 551 00:46:52.400 --> 00:46:57.639 it created a reaction in you, but do you know have any idea if 552 00:46:57.679 --> 00:47:00.599 it had a source or what that source might be. I mean, the 553 00:47:00.679 --> 00:47:05.079 source is mysterious? Is the source? God is the source? Like as 554 00:47:05.119 --> 00:47:08.079 a guardian angel is the source like some alien on the flying saucer, just 555 00:47:08.079 --> 00:47:14.159 you know, pushing the synchronicity button. You know, I I have speculated, 556 00:47:14.320 --> 00:47:16.480 you know, all around the block and then you know, around again 557 00:47:17.119 --> 00:47:22.159 on what it might be. And uh, and I'm just left as perplexed 558 00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:27.039 as I was the night that you know that the you know, tinker bell 559 00:47:27.119 --> 00:47:30.480 dust kind of zapped me there in front of the computer. I all I 560 00:47:30.519 --> 00:47:37.119 can say is that you know that I have to pay attention to these synchronicities, 561 00:47:37.400 --> 00:47:42.480 and that they are real. And I've I've spoken a lot about synchronicities 562 00:47:44.599 --> 00:47:47.079 and studied them and talk to people about them. And you know, I 563 00:47:47.159 --> 00:47:51.719 used to say, they're They're like a little guidepost along the trail. Right, 564 00:47:51.800 --> 00:47:54.440 there's a fork in the trail of life in your own and and you 565 00:47:54.519 --> 00:47:57.679 have to choose am I going to go right or left? And then you 566 00:47:57.800 --> 00:48:04.320 let the synchronicity guide you. Another person said that the synchronicity is like a 567 00:48:04.360 --> 00:48:07.360 compass on the ocean. Right on the ocean, there's no way to tell 568 00:48:07.760 --> 00:48:13.000 where anything is. You need the compass, and so it's giving you a 569 00:48:13.000 --> 00:48:16.199 bearing on how to proceed forward. So in essence, I'm just using those 570 00:48:17.199 --> 00:48:27.079 to proceed forward. And the written work that I've done online is a direct 571 00:48:27.159 --> 00:48:30.639 result of those synchronicities, where it's forced me to be more introspective. It's 572 00:48:30.639 --> 00:48:36.000 forced me to be more honest than I think I would have been if I 573 00:48:36.119 --> 00:48:42.800 was examining these memories without the whack and the head from the synchronicity two by 574 00:48:42.840 --> 00:48:46.719 four. It's interesting and I love the topic of synchronicity because it is something 575 00:48:46.840 --> 00:48:55.280 I actually think of or at least experience and except. But it was perplexing 576 00:48:55.320 --> 00:48:58.639 to me when I felt like I've had these in the past, and then 577 00:48:58.679 --> 00:49:02.199 I've looked into the different wayhilosophies. And I love your definition because that's kind 578 00:49:02.199 --> 00:49:06.320 of how I take it. Okay, you know, it's showing me I'm 579 00:49:06.360 --> 00:49:09.559 either on the path or help guiding me to a path, and I really 580 00:49:09.599 --> 00:49:14.840 take it as that, and I follow these things, and so I do 581 00:49:15.000 --> 00:49:22.480 find it fascinating that you I guess my question would be to you, do 582 00:49:22.599 --> 00:49:29.119 you feel that these experiencers who you've talked to and they said, wow, 583 00:49:29.199 --> 00:49:32.239 you know it's synchronicities is a part of my life. It's something I've recognized. 584 00:49:32.760 --> 00:49:37.639 Do you think after their experiences they're more open to recognizing these synchronicities. 585 00:49:38.400 --> 00:49:43.920 Do you feel or do you feel that perhaps they have them more because of 586 00:49:43.960 --> 00:49:50.599 their experiences? You know, I spoke with my girlfriend about this. She's 587 00:49:50.719 --> 00:49:52.400 she's been at the receiving end of like every experience I've ever had in the 588 00:49:52.440 --> 00:49:57.199 sense that I've talked her ear off, but I and I said, you 589 00:49:57.239 --> 00:50:01.960 know, you know, the synchronicity thing is somehow interwoven with this abduction phenomena. 590 00:50:02.400 --> 00:50:06.840 And then she kind of rolled her eyes and she said, anyone on 591 00:50:06.880 --> 00:50:12.559 a spiritual journey will have synchronicities. So that that made me well, and 592 00:50:12.880 --> 00:50:15.679 she was right. You know, I suspect that the person who sits in 593 00:50:15.719 --> 00:50:19.480 the lotus position on a mountain in Tibet will have synchronicities, and I suspect 594 00:50:19.480 --> 00:50:22.760 the person who's had a near death experience will not. Suspect. I know, 595 00:50:22.880 --> 00:50:25.239 having talked to some folks that have had near death experiences, say that 596 00:50:25.239 --> 00:50:31.840 that has changed the number of experiences synchronistic experiences in their life. So what 597 00:50:31.960 --> 00:50:40.119 she said was correct. You know, people on a spiritual journey will have 598 00:50:40.199 --> 00:50:52.320 more synchronicities. That implies that the UFO abduction phenomena can be seen as a 599 00:50:52.360 --> 00:50:58.840 spiritual journey, which which I absolutely feel is accurate having talked to so many 600 00:50:58.840 --> 00:51:01.400 people. The people that have these experiences and talk about them are you know, 601 00:51:01.519 --> 00:51:07.360 are forced to be deep thinkers. You know that it's you know, 602 00:51:07.679 --> 00:51:15.599 they are they're forced to to look at something in a profound way or you 603 00:51:15.599 --> 00:51:17.440 know, a profound experience, and you know, and forced to ask really 604 00:51:17.599 --> 00:51:22.599 challenging, hard questions about what is at the source of it all. So 605 00:51:24.119 --> 00:51:30.519 the uh, the people who who have you know that I talk to who 606 00:51:30.519 --> 00:51:32.840 have the abduction experience. You know, one person, I mean, actually, 607 00:51:32.840 --> 00:51:37.239 excuse me, more than one person has actually said synchronicity is the language 608 00:51:37.440 --> 00:51:44.840 which with which they communicate. And I have that direct quote from more than 609 00:51:44.880 --> 00:51:49.800 one person who's been at the receiving end of the both synchronicities and the UFO 610 00:51:49.840 --> 00:51:53.039 abduction phenomena. That's really interesting and one of the when I look at this 611 00:51:53.079 --> 00:51:58.519 step. I'm really into psychology, Carl Jung and all of this, and 612 00:51:58.519 --> 00:52:05.320 so I love his perspectives on these because it's sort of a secular spirituality, 613 00:52:05.400 --> 00:52:10.159 which I think we seem to be moving into. Whereas science has a difficult 614 00:52:10.199 --> 00:52:17.679 time with spirituality. You want to often remove that from the data in order 615 00:52:17.760 --> 00:52:22.599 to examine it closer. I think that's one great thing that like Yung did. 616 00:52:22.639 --> 00:52:27.719 He was a scientist essentially, but he's trying to explain these things. 617 00:52:27.800 --> 00:52:31.920 Kind of this secular spiritualism and like you said, and like we talked about 618 00:52:31.960 --> 00:52:38.840 earlier, with the SPRINKLEO sprinkle, there's this new vision of reincarnation and fitting 619 00:52:38.880 --> 00:52:42.679 that into their lives. And he even said, some of these people they 620 00:52:42.679 --> 00:52:47.320 didn't change their religion, but they added this component to or these other components 621 00:52:47.360 --> 00:52:52.760 to their religion and it helped. It was something that was added to their 622 00:52:52.880 --> 00:53:00.280 lives. So it's difficult, if not impossible, to separate this spiritual aspect 623 00:53:00.679 --> 00:53:06.679 to these experiences. You know. I would have these Sunday morning conversations with 624 00:53:06.719 --> 00:53:10.639 the buddy of mine and he he meditates, and he's gone to like spiritual 625 00:53:10.679 --> 00:53:15.880 retreats and has had a guru in his life and things, and uh, 626 00:53:15.199 --> 00:53:17.320 and we would get into these kind of back and forth, you know, 627 00:53:17.400 --> 00:53:22.400 one upmanships are sort of tit for tat little arguments and and let's say, 628 00:53:22.480 --> 00:53:25.880 conversations discussions and uh. And he would listen to me and he would kind 629 00:53:25.880 --> 00:53:29.559 of he could just he could just he would just kind of bat his head 630 00:53:29.599 --> 00:53:31.159 and he would go like, I can't believe you don't meditate. And then 631 00:53:31.159 --> 00:53:34.840 I would just back at him. I was like, I can't believe you 632 00:53:34.880 --> 00:53:42.119 don't read UFO books because there's something about the phenomena that it doesn't take too 633 00:53:42.159 --> 00:53:45.639 long. You know, you get two people who are thoughtful and talk about 634 00:53:45.639 --> 00:53:49.239 the phenomena. You know, within minutes they're talking about the really big questions. 635 00:53:49.280 --> 00:53:51.719 You know, what is God? Why are we here? What is 636 00:53:51.760 --> 00:53:53.960 the meaning of reality? How do you define consciousness? I mean, all 637 00:53:54.000 --> 00:53:59.760 these unanswerable questions are forced into your lap, you know, because of this 638 00:54:00.239 --> 00:54:05.840 phenomena. It's really kind of ironic because in the one hand, it's often 639 00:54:06.000 --> 00:54:12.559 seen in uh mainstream or by the populace it's something silly. On the other 640 00:54:12.679 --> 00:54:17.360 hand, it's also something that's extremely existential and is at the root of our 641 00:54:17.480 --> 00:54:22.880 very being as serious as it gets, and you have this weird dichotomy, 642 00:54:23.480 --> 00:54:28.960 and I think that is why people get so frustrated and it being made fun 643 00:54:29.000 --> 00:54:34.159 of this whole looking into this area when it at the very least is like 644 00:54:34.239 --> 00:54:37.719 space science or like astrobiology, and that it's making you look at these really 645 00:54:37.760 --> 00:54:43.639 profound questions. Yeah, I think if the macro or the micro I mean, 646 00:54:43.679 --> 00:54:47.119 the person who looks through the electron microscope must be forced to to contemplate 647 00:54:47.159 --> 00:54:50.360 the divine, and the person who looks at the you know, through the 648 00:54:50.440 --> 00:54:53.440 Hubble telescope must be forced to contemplate the divine. You know, there's there's 649 00:54:53.480 --> 00:55:00.519 a transformative core to this experience, and you know that is one of the 650 00:55:00.559 --> 00:55:02.840 things that that I'm struggling with in a way. You know that I just 651 00:55:02.880 --> 00:55:10.320 realize, Oh, I'm playing the role of someone who's been at the receiving 652 00:55:10.400 --> 00:55:17.360 end of of what would be a UFO abduction, though I I just don't 653 00:55:17.400 --> 00:55:22.960 like that term, you know. So so you know, I hear myself 654 00:55:22.960 --> 00:55:25.800 talking right now, and and I'm almost using I'm talking in the first person 655 00:55:25.840 --> 00:55:31.840 as if I was the UFO abductee, even though I'm I'm so hesitant to 656 00:55:32.239 --> 00:55:37.519 actually verbally say it. What are the concepts or perhaps the emotions that you 657 00:55:37.639 --> 00:55:44.519 feel when you think of the word abduction that you feel resistant to. Well, 658 00:55:44.599 --> 00:55:46.559 the thing that just feels that I'm resistant to it just doesn't feel honest 659 00:55:46.639 --> 00:55:51.000 because I don't have the direct memory of you know, like I mean, 660 00:55:51.039 --> 00:55:52.880 there's I've talked to people who have the whole gambit of the you know, 661 00:55:52.960 --> 00:55:57.000 lying on the table and the evil doctors and the you know, watching the 662 00:55:57.039 --> 00:56:07.159 apocalyptic three D virtual reality experiences, and I don't have those experiences. I 663 00:56:07.440 --> 00:56:12.199 have what I refer to as like the puzzle pieces, right, so each 664 00:56:12.239 --> 00:56:15.920 one of these little experiences and synchronicities would be a puzzle piece, right. 665 00:56:15.960 --> 00:56:19.400 So the picture is emerging on the table, you know, it seems like 666 00:56:19.440 --> 00:56:23.079 most of the pieces are there, and there's holes in the picture, so 667 00:56:24.159 --> 00:56:30.719 there's enough puzzle pieces down I can perceive what the giant picture is, even 668 00:56:30.800 --> 00:56:34.960 though there are blank spots there. But it just doesn't feel honest. It 669 00:56:35.000 --> 00:56:37.719 just feels like it would be dishonest if I said that about the term abduction 670 00:56:38.159 --> 00:56:40.719 and myself. So it's less about that term, and it's just about my 671 00:56:42.159 --> 00:56:52.159 ability to to have that direct memory or that direct experience the fact, which 672 00:56:52.159 --> 00:56:54.039 I think is fine. And one of the things that's happened is that there 673 00:56:54.079 --> 00:57:00.079 are people who have found my written work on my blog and have contacted me 674 00:57:00.159 --> 00:57:06.679 through the blog and that basically say to me, you know, they'll say 675 00:57:06.719 --> 00:57:08.599 in a very heartfelt way, it's very moving for me. They'll say thank 676 00:57:08.639 --> 00:57:13.400 you for articulating what I'm experiencing. Like they'll say, you know, like, 677 00:57:13.440 --> 00:57:15.360 oh, I'm you know, like I think, and I can't come 678 00:57:15.400 --> 00:57:20.960 forward with this stuff, so thank you for saying what I'm feeling, right, 679 00:57:21.039 --> 00:57:25.880 So that's actually a very you know, it gives It makes me feel 680 00:57:25.880 --> 00:57:30.480 good at the end of the day that I've you know, tried to do 681 00:57:30.519 --> 00:57:32.719 what I've been doing on this blog in those kind of letters. Now, 682 00:57:32.719 --> 00:57:37.440 we've talked about some of those puzzle pieces, some of your experiences, but 683 00:57:37.480 --> 00:57:42.760 there's more puzzle pieces out there, and so I guess let's get into some 684 00:57:42.840 --> 00:57:45.599 of your experiences. And I don't know you could tell me if this is 685 00:57:45.599 --> 00:57:50.280 the best place to start, unless you think there's something prior to this to 686 00:57:50.400 --> 00:57:54.920 get into. But you also had in nineteen seventy four a sighting. I 687 00:57:55.000 --> 00:57:59.199 had a very vivid night time sighting. As best as I can remember, 688 00:57:59.199 --> 00:58:05.559 it was nineteen seventy four. And I say that because the friend moved in 689 00:58:05.639 --> 00:58:07.159 nineteen seventy four, and it was I was a twelve year old boy, 690 00:58:07.159 --> 00:58:10.239 and I went to visit his new house, which was just a few miles 691 00:58:10.239 --> 00:58:13.840 away. My dad drove me there and so and he was going to a 692 00:58:13.840 --> 00:58:16.440 different school at that time. His name is Kenny. And we were in 693 00:58:16.480 --> 00:58:22.760 his upstairs bedroom and if I remember correctly, we walked into the bedroom and 694 00:58:22.800 --> 00:58:25.000 the lights were off. It was it was like the weekend, so it 695 00:58:25.039 --> 00:58:30.920 was either Saturday or Friday night, and either him or I, I had 696 00:58:30.960 --> 00:58:32.480 no memory of who it would have been, basically pointed out the window and 697 00:58:32.480 --> 00:58:36.320 said look, and we ran to the window and kind of pushed our faces 698 00:58:36.400 --> 00:58:43.679 up against the glass, and we saw something that was a coffee can shape 699 00:58:44.199 --> 00:58:46.039 and it had a pencil sticking out the top of it. It was it 700 00:58:46.079 --> 00:58:51.880 was It could not have been a helicopter. It was at a very odd 701 00:58:51.960 --> 00:58:54.920 angle, and it wasn't moving like a like a helicopter a plane. And 702 00:58:55.000 --> 00:58:59.440 it was very clear in the nighttime sky. If it was if it was 703 00:58:59.599 --> 00:59:01.239 huge, could have been a half mile away. If it was small, 704 00:59:01.320 --> 00:59:05.960 it could have been a few hundred yards away. So I don't have any 705 00:59:06.000 --> 00:59:08.920 good idea about its size or its distance, but it felt like it was 706 00:59:09.079 --> 00:59:14.599 very clear to see. It was metallic, a little bit reflective in the 707 00:59:14.679 --> 00:59:17.480 nighttime sky, had lights on it, and it was rotating in a smooth, 708 00:59:17.639 --> 00:59:22.320 controlled way, and we watched it for I'm going to say less than 709 00:59:22.360 --> 00:59:27.480 a minute, and then it just blinked, you know, snap my fingers, 710 00:59:28.239 --> 00:59:37.119 it just disappeared. And do you remember this was prior to or after 711 00:59:37.199 --> 00:59:44.559 the Orange flash. My best guess is that was before and that's just a 712 00:59:44.599 --> 00:59:47.079 guess. I don't know exactly, but my best guess is that it was 713 00:59:47.119 --> 00:59:54.000 before. Yeah, interesting sighting. So then I guess your next experience wasn't 714 00:59:54.039 --> 00:59:59.480 for a while. But in the meantime you had gotten into UFOs and started 715 00:59:59.519 --> 01:00:05.559 reading book books to come across Whitley Streeaver's book, Kevin Randall's book UFO Casebook, 716 01:00:05.599 --> 01:00:09.559 and we actually had them on just a few weeks ago. So you 717 01:00:09.639 --> 01:00:15.599 had an interest that you bangan to explore. Well, yeah, and to 718 01:00:15.639 --> 01:00:17.280 be So this the event you're talking about, took place in the winter of 719 01:00:17.360 --> 01:00:23.800 nineteen ninety three February, either January or February of nineteen ninety three. And 720 01:00:23.960 --> 01:00:31.760 this one is this one is tough for me to to articulate because it has 721 01:00:31.840 --> 01:00:37.199 such a strange quality to it. It has such a hyperreal quality to it. 722 01:00:37.239 --> 01:00:40.719 So what happened was I was living alone in a house in ur Main 723 01:00:42.519 --> 01:00:45.679 and I was in bed. I have no idea what time it was, 724 01:00:45.159 --> 01:00:49.440 and I sat up in bed and said, there was just there was a 725 01:00:49.440 --> 01:00:52.920 bright light coming through the window and the way the bed was pushed up, 726 01:00:52.960 --> 01:00:55.119 it was right against the window. I've drawn a picture of this on the 727 01:00:55.280 --> 01:01:00.280 on the blog, which I think you've seen it right. It's the definitely, 728 01:01:00.320 --> 01:01:04.599 And I should mention you are an illustrator by trade and you have a 729 01:01:04.639 --> 01:01:08.480 picture of the sighting we just talked about and this event and your illustrations are 730 01:01:08.519 --> 01:01:14.920 wonderful, so people can see that at Hidden Experience dot blogspot dot com. 731 01:01:15.679 --> 01:01:19.199 Yeah, yeah, thank you. The the It was interesting when I drew 732 01:01:19.320 --> 01:01:22.119 this event that I'm going to talk about. This is a I drew it 733 01:01:22.159 --> 01:01:27.760 with a with a with the foresight, knowing that I only had one chance 734 01:01:27.800 --> 01:01:31.480 to get it right, because what was going to happen was after I did 735 01:01:31.519 --> 01:01:37.079 the drawing, my memory would warp a little bit and I would then be 736 01:01:37.199 --> 01:01:40.039 remembering the drawing and saying that and saying that I feel like I did a 737 01:01:40.079 --> 01:01:44.400 pretty good job, Like I feel like I captured it pretty closely. So 738 01:01:44.440 --> 01:01:47.679 I sat up in bed, bright light shining through the window. The bed 739 01:01:47.719 --> 01:01:51.559 is pushed right up against the window. I could literally like put my elbow 740 01:01:51.639 --> 01:01:54.519 on the window still if I wanted to, and I look out the window 741 01:01:54.559 --> 01:01:59.840 in a little bit out the window and visually just off to my left were 742 01:02:00.159 --> 01:02:05.519 five what we would call classic cray aliens, big black eyes, big bald 743 01:02:05.559 --> 01:02:08.360 heads, skinny, little spindly bodies. And the way I drew it there 744 01:02:08.119 --> 01:02:12.400 so they were all standing. I tried to draw them walking, and it 745 01:02:12.519 --> 01:02:14.840 just looked like they were doing a little dance or something like that. So 746 01:02:14.880 --> 01:02:19.320 I just it just it seemed a little less silly to just draw them standing 747 01:02:19.320 --> 01:02:22.679 there. But they were. Actually my memory was they were walking towards the 748 01:02:22.719 --> 01:02:30.000 house, and which is a scary image. And my immediate thought was I 749 01:02:30.079 --> 01:02:35.760 and I this was very clear. It was like a very clear verbal thing 750 01:02:35.800 --> 01:02:39.079 in my head, and it said, now is the time to put your 751 01:02:39.119 --> 01:02:44.039 head on the pillow and shut down. That's exactly what I did. I 752 01:02:44.159 --> 01:02:46.280 was seeing something that was creepy. I should have, you know, ran 753 01:02:46.320 --> 01:02:50.199 and locked the doors and got in a baseball bat, and I didn't. 754 01:02:50.239 --> 01:02:52.880 I put my head on the pillow and went to sleep. And but what 755 01:02:52.960 --> 01:02:58.119 I will say, now, here's something that that I have asked a lot 756 01:02:58.159 --> 01:03:05.440 of people in like UFO abduction support groups about the experience of that of what 757 01:03:05.480 --> 01:03:09.239 I was seeing was somehow warped, it was somehow hyper vivid. It was 758 01:03:09.480 --> 01:03:17.079 it was quieter than what would be like normal waking reality, so I could 759 01:03:17.159 --> 01:03:22.920 easily dismiss this as being a dream and to quite honestly, I was reading 760 01:03:23.199 --> 01:03:28.119 Bud Hopkins book Intruders at the time, so that was like on the nightstand 761 01:03:28.199 --> 01:03:31.719 right next to me when this happened, so I could very easily conclude that 762 01:03:31.840 --> 01:03:36.920 my mind was just filled with thoughts of thefos and you know, aliens and 763 01:03:36.960 --> 01:03:43.920 scary nighttime visitations, which is all in that book. But that feeling, 764 01:03:44.239 --> 01:03:52.639 that hyper real, quiet, hyper focused feeling was very real. And I 765 01:03:52.800 --> 01:03:59.559 asked about this feeling when I go to like, for instance, Laughlin or 766 01:03:59.639 --> 01:04:03.320 now just out of Phoenix at the at the Open Minds conference where they have 767 01:04:03.679 --> 01:04:08.119 a support group, I'll ask people, you know, have you experienced this, 768 01:04:08.159 --> 01:04:11.719 I'll describe it, and you know, some people will raise their hand, 769 01:04:11.719 --> 01:04:15.039 and then oftentimes after the meeting is over, people will grab me in 770 01:04:15.079 --> 01:04:16.000 the hall and say, oh my gosh, you know that that feeling. 771 01:04:16.000 --> 01:04:21.880 I know exactly what you're talking about. So you know, I am I'm 772 01:04:21.920 --> 01:04:25.440 skeptical. I'm skeptical of a lot of things, and the one thing I'm 773 01:04:25.480 --> 01:04:30.400 most skeptical of in a way is my own set of experiences. So but 774 01:04:30.519 --> 01:04:34.800 that that you know that experience in nineteen ninety three is hard for me to 775 01:04:34.840 --> 01:04:41.400 trust completely because it has that veneer of this kind of altered dream like reality 776 01:04:42.880 --> 01:04:49.440 now in ninety three. And do you prefer the the I guess experience or 777 01:04:49.599 --> 01:04:55.039 over abductee. You know, I use them all interchangeably. You know, 778 01:04:56.320 --> 01:04:59.800 I wish there was a better term. Yeah, when I understand you know 779 01:04:59.840 --> 01:05:01.719 the reason for experiencer, and I understand the reason for abductee and stuff. 780 01:05:01.719 --> 01:05:04.280 So yeah, I mean, I just wish there was another term, you 781 01:05:04.280 --> 01:05:08.440 know, experience. This would be fine for me and just make some term 782 01:05:08.519 --> 01:05:15.400 up. So I guess prior to this event you were reading Intruders. But 783 01:05:15.519 --> 01:05:20.400 did you, prior to this event, Bill, you were one of an 784 01:05:20.480 --> 01:05:27.519 experiencer? You know, I would have to say, no, it's and 785 01:05:27.840 --> 01:05:30.880 I will actually have to say after that experience, I still didn't. I 786 01:05:30.960 --> 01:05:35.559 just wrote it off as a dream. I wrote it off as as you 787 01:05:35.559 --> 01:05:41.519 know, just a hyper vivid dream that was based on having that book. 788 01:05:41.800 --> 01:05:45.599 I could have so easily walked out the door and just looked at the snow 789 01:05:45.679 --> 01:05:48.920 and seen if there were footprints. And I never even bothered to do that, 790 01:05:50.119 --> 01:05:55.639 So you know, that wasn't the confirmation in a weird way. The 791 01:05:55.679 --> 01:06:01.920 confirmation was strangely enough, when Chris Carter. I watched the very first X 792 01:06:02.079 --> 01:06:05.760 Files episode on VHS, and at the end of it it sort of had 793 01:06:06.039 --> 01:06:09.440 you know, after the pilot, they said, and now a word from 794 01:06:09.559 --> 01:06:13.320 the you know, producer and director of The X Files, Chris Carter, 795 01:06:13.840 --> 01:06:15.280 and he said. One of the first things out of his mouth was he 796 01:06:15.280 --> 01:06:20.159 said, you know, I loved this TV show as a little kid, 797 01:06:20.559 --> 01:06:24.960 and I wanted to make a TV show that would match that TV show was 798 01:06:25.039 --> 01:06:29.159 spooky and scary and fun and exciting. And the TV show is called coal 799 01:06:29.199 --> 01:06:32.440 Shack The night Stalker, and that was the TV show I was going to 800 01:06:32.559 --> 01:06:38.920 see wanted to see that night in nineteen seventy four that I was walking home 801 01:06:39.039 --> 01:06:43.599 and for some strange reason, hearing Chris Carter say the words Coleshak the night 802 01:06:43.639 --> 01:06:48.559 Stalker just freaked me out. And I realized then that something very real had 803 01:06:48.559 --> 01:06:55.360 happened, and that probably didn't happen until like probably nineteen ninety oh, maybe 804 01:06:55.360 --> 01:06:58.199 in two thousand, like maybe two thousand and two or something like that. 805 01:06:59.039 --> 01:07:03.000 So here again another synchronicity, not as I think mind blowing, as the 806 01:07:03.000 --> 01:07:09.320 other one, but still a pretty decent synchronicity that that made this profound change 807 01:07:09.400 --> 01:07:16.760 for you. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So were there other confirmations that 808 01:07:16.840 --> 01:07:26.559 came across or other events, I guess that add to that puzzle in now 809 01:07:26.599 --> 01:07:30.400 here's one that this is. This is in twenty and ten. I was 810 01:07:30.480 --> 01:07:34.760 with a friend of mine and her name is Natasha, and I was we 811 01:07:34.760 --> 01:07:40.159 were driving around the southwest. We're camping in and around of southern Utah and 812 01:07:40.199 --> 01:07:45.920 northern Arizona, and I had car trouble and this was it would have been 813 01:07:45.920 --> 01:07:49.719 in Dolores, Colorado, which is right in the four Corners area, right 814 01:07:49.760 --> 01:07:59.880 near mas Verde I think is the Maceverdi National Park. So took the car, 815 01:08:00.159 --> 01:08:04.559 my little Subaru, into the little local mechanic there, and he came 816 01:08:04.599 --> 01:08:06.760 out of the back with a little rag, you know, wiping his hands 817 01:08:06.760 --> 01:08:09.920 off, and he said to me, so like, listen, I can't 818 01:08:10.000 --> 01:08:13.360 let you take this car out of the you know, legally, I can't 819 01:08:13.400 --> 01:08:15.399 let you take the car out of the out of the shop here because you'll 820 01:08:15.399 --> 01:08:18.000 die. And he said, the breaks are just about to fall apart, 821 01:08:18.000 --> 01:08:21.000 and we have to wait four days for or five days for a part. 822 01:08:21.640 --> 01:08:27.039 So there we were stuck in this cute little town in southern Colorado, and 823 01:08:27.119 --> 01:08:30.239 we rented a car, which was easy to do and inexpensive in a small 824 01:08:30.279 --> 01:08:36.439 town like that. And so that night we Natasha and I, because it 825 01:08:36.560 --> 01:08:40.119 ate up a lot of time, we just asked someone in town, like, 826 01:08:40.119 --> 01:08:42.800 where's a good spot to camp tonight? And this young woman said, 827 01:08:42.800 --> 01:08:45.319 oh, here's a great spot. She kind of, you know, drew 828 01:08:45.319 --> 01:08:46.840 it on a napkin and said, this is out at the edge of town. 829 01:08:46.920 --> 01:08:49.399 It's a nice forest, no one's out there. It'll be it'll be 830 01:08:49.439 --> 01:08:53.560 great. So we went out. There was totally secluded, and we camped 831 01:08:53.800 --> 01:09:00.800 in a pretty forest. And and that night and Natasha was very uneas earlier 832 01:09:00.800 --> 01:09:08.000 in the evening. But that night I woke up and Natasha was screaming wow. 833 01:09:08.800 --> 01:09:13.039 And I sat up and I screamed like I've never screamed before. I 834 01:09:13.079 --> 01:09:16.279 have never in my life experienced anything like that. It was like I was 835 01:09:16.319 --> 01:09:20.159 so scared. I was so terrified. It felt like it was synthetic. 836 01:09:20.199 --> 01:09:24.359 That's the only way to describe it. It was like off the charts. 837 01:09:24.000 --> 01:09:29.039 It. I don't even have a way to articulate it. I teach camping 838 01:09:29.279 --> 01:09:32.479 for a living. I've been I've spent you know, more than three years 839 01:09:32.520 --> 01:09:35.560 of my life in a tent in the mountains, and you know, I've 840 01:09:35.600 --> 01:09:39.600 dealt with you know, moose and bears and porcupines and stuff like that, 841 01:09:39.600 --> 01:09:45.279 you know, getting into the tent and and the uh. I've never experienced 842 01:09:45.319 --> 01:09:51.680 anything like this. So it lasted a few minutes and then you know, 843 01:09:51.720 --> 01:09:56.960 poof, we both went to sleep. And before I went to sleep, 844 01:09:56.960 --> 01:10:00.279 I asked Natasha, like, what did you see? What's wrong? And 845 01:10:00.319 --> 01:10:02.079 she said, I saw a face. That's all I got out of her. 846 01:10:02.319 --> 01:10:04.960 She was just, you know, couldn't even get the words out of 847 01:10:04.960 --> 01:10:08.920 her. And then poof. I went to sleep. And I don't know 848 01:10:08.960 --> 01:10:13.640 how long after this was. And it felt very similar to the dream state 849 01:10:13.680 --> 01:10:20.520 that I described earlier. And I felt myself rising out of the rising up 850 01:10:20.520 --> 01:10:26.039 in the tent, like floating like they had that elevator up feeling. And 851 01:10:26.079 --> 01:10:30.960 then I looked to my left and I saw what looked like a mandala, 852 01:10:30.039 --> 01:10:40.279 like a pizza pan size glowing circle. And I continued floating and I suddenly 853 01:10:40.279 --> 01:10:43.600 felt like I was in a white realm. I did not see a room. 854 01:10:44.199 --> 01:10:45.680 It felt like it was a realm. It felt like it was like 855 01:10:45.680 --> 01:10:49.359 an altered dimensional reality. I know this sounds corny, but I don't know 856 01:10:49.720 --> 01:10:54.600 the way to say it. And then I remember saying to myself, I 857 01:10:54.640 --> 01:10:56.840 have to remember this. I have to remember this. I have to remember 858 01:10:56.840 --> 01:10:59.239 this. And then I said, am I on a table? Am I 859 01:10:59.279 --> 01:11:02.640 on a table? On a table? And then Natasha said, Mike, 860 01:11:02.680 --> 01:11:08.680 you're floating. And then I was back down in bed next to her. 861 01:11:09.399 --> 01:11:12.880 And I don't really remember waking up. I just remember like sort of whis 862 01:11:13.520 --> 01:11:16.119 being zipped back down there. So I don't know quite what to make of 863 01:11:16.159 --> 01:11:21.319 this now. The next morning I asked Natasha, like, what happened last 864 01:11:21.399 --> 01:11:26.199 night? And she said, oh, my gosh, I saw something. 865 01:11:26.239 --> 01:11:28.359 I said, you have to explain what it was. She said it was 866 01:11:28.399 --> 01:11:30.800 a face and she said, no, you have to do better than that. 867 01:11:30.000 --> 01:11:31.920 I want to know what it was. And I thought it was right 868 01:11:31.960 --> 01:11:34.680 above her face and she said, well, you know what actually looked like 869 01:11:34.760 --> 01:11:38.960 is just a circle, and she kind of described a little bit, and 870 01:11:39.439 --> 01:11:42.600 I used a reference of a drawing I had done, and that was what 871 01:11:42.600 --> 01:11:45.800 it reminded me of. Is this drawing I had done, which will take 872 01:11:45.800 --> 01:11:51.159 another fifteen minutes for me to tell that long thing. But so and I 873 01:11:51.199 --> 01:11:54.760 asked where was it, and she pointed to the exact same spot in the 874 01:11:54.760 --> 01:12:00.439 corner of the tent where I saw that glowing mandala circle. Now went to 875 01:12:00.560 --> 01:12:09.319 a sweat lodge the next day, and uh, you know, in you 876 01:12:09.359 --> 01:12:11.800 know, you take, I took my shirt off, and typical of what 877 01:12:11.800 --> 01:12:14.479 we'd been doing in car camp and you're all grubby and you live out of 878 01:12:14.479 --> 01:12:15.840 the back of the car and stuff. So I probably had just left my 879 01:12:15.840 --> 01:12:17.960 sweatshirt on and had been on for a couple of days. When I took 880 01:12:17.960 --> 01:12:21.800 my sweatshirt off to go into the sweat lodge, there was a big scratch, 881 01:12:23.039 --> 01:12:26.640 like a big giant scratch from my left shoulder to my belly button. 882 01:12:27.359 --> 01:12:29.960 And it looked when you looked at it, it looked like a scratch from 883 01:12:30.000 --> 01:12:32.479 like a cat claw or maybe a single rose thorn. But when you really 884 01:12:32.520 --> 01:12:35.439 looked at it closely, it was it was very strange. It was like 885 01:12:35.960 --> 01:12:41.760 tiny little blisters, like like less than a millimeter in size, all in 886 01:12:41.800 --> 01:12:45.159 a little row, little teeny fluid filled blisters that made like kind of a 887 01:12:45.199 --> 01:12:48.680 red line kind of intermittent, but it was you know, you can see 888 01:12:48.680 --> 01:12:51.960 where it started, you see where it ended. Strange, yes, And 889 01:12:53.600 --> 01:12:58.000 so Natasha and I both sort of pretend to be, you know, want 890 01:12:58.000 --> 01:13:01.159 to be UFO researchers, and we kind so this is strange. And then 891 01:13:01.520 --> 01:13:05.319 it healed up very quickly, and a few days later I took a shower 892 01:13:05.319 --> 01:13:08.439 and washed it off and it was totally gone. And as soon as it 893 01:13:08.520 --> 01:13:12.439 was gone, both Natasha and I kind of kind of said, almost simultaneously, 894 01:13:12.520 --> 01:13:15.960 like, oh my god, we didn't we didn't uh didn't take a 895 01:13:15.000 --> 01:13:21.119 picture of it. And so, you know, so there's a here's an 896 01:13:21.159 --> 01:13:25.640 experience that begins with the car mechanic saying you can't leave this town or you'll 897 01:13:25.720 --> 01:13:30.279 die, and then it ends with a sweat lodge, which is sort of 898 01:13:30.319 --> 01:13:36.039 a metaphoric traditional experience of the death, you know, of a death and 899 01:13:36.079 --> 01:13:44.720 resurrection. You know, I cannot separate those those experiences, you know, 900 01:13:44.760 --> 01:13:48.239 the beginning and end, the sweat lodge, and the mechanic from the entirety 901 01:13:48.279 --> 01:13:55.439 of this experience. Did you change afterwards? Did you feel different somehow? 902 01:13:56.439 --> 01:14:00.159 You know, at this point I had already been writing and blogging, but 903 01:14:00.239 --> 01:14:05.479 this this that experience made it really hard for me to to to sort of 904 01:14:05.600 --> 01:14:09.359 hold my ground and say that, you know, like, I'm still not 905 01:14:09.399 --> 01:14:12.359 sure what's going on. That said, you know, like I don't have 906 01:14:12.399 --> 01:14:15.159 any memories of being on a ship or anything like that. I do remember 907 01:14:15.159 --> 01:14:19.880 saying, am I on a table? Obviously I know exactly what that implies, 908 01:14:20.359 --> 01:14:24.359 but you know, without the direct memory, you know, it would 909 01:14:24.359 --> 01:14:28.119 just feel dishonest. So yeah, that was that was really that one was 910 01:14:28.399 --> 01:14:30.479 that sort of was one of the things that I just got pushed even that 911 01:14:30.560 --> 01:14:38.079 much farther down the rabbit hole. So and so when were you, assuming 912 01:14:38.119 --> 01:14:42.680 you did come to this, when were you down the hall? When down 913 01:14:42.720 --> 01:14:44.800 the hole? Well, it's interesting. Two thousand and nine was a hard 914 01:14:44.880 --> 01:14:47.079 year for me. That was the year that I had both those experiences where 915 01:14:47.159 --> 01:14:55.000 the two people that were you know kind of at the at the site of 916 01:14:55.039 --> 01:14:58.800 that nineteen seventy four experience, you know, found me on Facebook in that 917 01:14:58.920 --> 01:15:02.600 those odd synchronistic ways, you know. Two thousand and nine was a challenging 918 01:15:03.399 --> 01:15:11.079 year for me. I was really emotionally fragile because of all this. So 919 01:15:11.279 --> 01:15:15.239 there's a genesis of this whole thing where on one level, I think I 920 01:15:15.319 --> 01:15:19.039 just got bored of being all freaked out, and and it's just easier to 921 01:15:19.039 --> 01:15:25.199 proceed it with life, you know, just recognizing that I'm somehow intertwined with 922 01:15:25.239 --> 01:15:30.640 a mystery, as opposed to being so shook up by it. You know, 923 01:15:30.680 --> 01:15:33.600 I mean, everything that was happening, every bit of you know, 924 01:15:34.000 --> 01:15:41.680 synchronistic feedback I was getting was you know, was telling me something diametrically opposite 925 01:15:41.720 --> 01:15:45.119 than what mother culture is telling me. You know, mother culture, if 926 01:15:45.159 --> 01:15:46.079 you read the New York Times, tells you you know, this is the 927 01:15:46.399 --> 01:15:50.079 you know reality is this just this one way and it does not stray from 928 01:15:50.079 --> 01:15:57.119 this and and and the topic of UFO abductions is the stuff of lunacy. 929 01:15:57.239 --> 01:16:01.399 So you know that that was that was the challenge, was dealing with my 930 01:16:01.479 --> 01:16:09.760 own identity. I guess I think that you know, it's funny because a 931 01:16:09.760 --> 01:16:13.439 couple of things come to my first of all, at the time, by 932 01:16:13.600 --> 01:16:17.039 twenty ten, I'm fairly certain because you had been to the congress that and 933 01:16:17.079 --> 01:16:23.000 I remember Natasha and you at least seeing you and saying hi a couple of 934 01:16:23.039 --> 01:16:29.880 times at the conference. Because in the Laughlin Conference, I think even two 935 01:16:29.920 --> 01:16:32.159 thousand and eight, by then I was at least helping out with the conferences 936 01:16:32.560 --> 01:16:39.119 and some of the work in there and stuff I think, but prior to 937 01:16:39.159 --> 01:16:44.680 that even and it's just makes me think of, you know, at these 938 01:16:44.720 --> 01:16:46.520 conferences, you know, they're a blur. You meet so many people, 939 01:16:46.560 --> 01:16:53.159 there's so many people walking by, But how fascinating you know the experiences of 940 01:16:53.279 --> 01:16:56.840 all of these people are, and the different people coming and going, and 941 01:16:57.239 --> 01:17:00.800 that you know, even after even though we haven't really talked until recently, 942 01:17:02.239 --> 01:17:05.239 you're experiencing all of this stuff, you know, and this is going on. 943 01:17:08.159 --> 01:17:10.439 I don't know. It just makes me think of how fascinating all the 944 01:17:10.520 --> 01:17:15.520 people's stories are. And like you said, there's a New York Times reality, 945 01:17:15.600 --> 01:17:23.079 but then there's a reality that people are really living out there that unfortunately 946 01:17:24.960 --> 01:17:30.119 a lot of not everyone, and I think people don't understand there are communities 947 01:17:30.119 --> 01:17:35.960 that people out there who are experiencing They really don't have a voice I think 948 01:17:36.000 --> 01:17:44.560 in the mainstream so much, but that are living this alternate and it may 949 01:17:44.560 --> 01:17:54.359 be an r view more real life, that are not afraid to voice and 950 01:17:54.479 --> 01:18:00.920 recognize and remember and not dismiss the experiences they have that they can't explain. 951 01:18:00.760 --> 01:18:05.199 You know, one thing that's happening now, which I find fascinating is a 952 01:18:05.239 --> 01:18:11.439 lot of these people are have blogs, and some people will do their blog 953 01:18:11.520 --> 01:18:14.960 under a pseudonym, and I totally understand that and respect that others will use 954 01:18:15.000 --> 01:18:17.880 their real name. But what happened if you just turn the clock back a 955 01:18:17.920 --> 01:18:20.880 decade ago, if you wanted to study this stuff, you would have to 956 01:18:20.920 --> 01:18:24.479 go to the bookstore, or you would have to read some article on a 957 01:18:24.479 --> 01:18:29.439 magazine. You would have to, you know, the book. In order 958 01:18:29.439 --> 01:18:32.520 for the book to get published. It would have to you know, it's 959 01:18:32.560 --> 01:18:35.520 a big job to write a book. It would have to have an editor, 960 01:18:35.560 --> 01:18:38.920 it would have to you know, it's expensive to get them, so 961 01:18:38.960 --> 01:18:42.760 there's a chance it would never get published. And then when you read the 962 01:18:42.760 --> 01:18:46.399 book, you know, the the text would say, you know, well 963 01:18:46.399 --> 01:18:49.439 here's something that happened to me ten years ago, because you know, that 964 01:18:49.520 --> 01:18:54.479 might have been the beginning of the experience and the process of getting the book 965 01:18:54.479 --> 01:18:59.199 out. What happens now is you can, you know, click on a 966 01:18:59.239 --> 01:19:03.159 blog and have someone say I had an experience last night, and you can 967 01:19:03.199 --> 01:19:13.760 read it completely unedited, without any sort of editorializing from time or editorializing because 968 01:19:13.800 --> 01:19:16.600 it's being retold, let's say, by a researcher. So we are in 969 01:19:16.680 --> 01:19:24.159 a place right now where these first person experiences are being shared in a very 970 01:19:24.199 --> 01:19:27.680 public way. I mean, if someone can make it to your podcast here, 971 01:19:27.760 --> 01:19:31.239 then someone can make it to those to those first person stories from experiencers. 972 01:19:31.640 --> 01:19:36.680 And I just am left to conclude that that, you know, it's 973 01:19:36.720 --> 01:19:41.439 a one way road. We're only going to have more people having the willingness 974 01:19:41.479 --> 01:19:44.800 to share these stories. And quite honestly, I haven't really had that much 975 01:19:44.840 --> 01:19:47.279 backlash. You know, I worked as an illustrator for a job, so 976 01:19:47.520 --> 01:19:51.760 I am you know, like I don't am not like I'm not president of 977 01:19:51.840 --> 01:19:56.960 the bank, let me put it that way. So I've had very little 978 01:19:58.000 --> 01:20:00.079 backlash, you know, a few little things come up, but for the 979 01:20:00.079 --> 01:20:03.840 most part, and I've been very open with this stuff lately. And uh 980 01:20:04.840 --> 01:20:09.920 and and that would not have been the case twenty years ago. Do you 981 01:20:10.039 --> 01:20:16.720 feel that it's enhanced your life to come to terms with, at least accepting 982 01:20:16.760 --> 01:20:27.520 that you've had enigmatic, unexplainable experiences. Was it difficult? Do you think 983 01:20:27.520 --> 01:20:31.920 it caused maybe some undue stress on you prior to you really coming out and 984 01:20:32.039 --> 01:20:35.119 being more free with your stories. Well, I certainly. I mean, 985 01:20:35.159 --> 01:20:39.520 it's still stressful, to be honest, and it's still it's like a it's 986 01:20:39.520 --> 01:20:41.840 a verb, you know what I mean. It's not like it's it's not 987 01:20:41.880 --> 01:20:45.439 like I've I'm at you know. Still it seems like I'm in the act 988 01:20:45.479 --> 01:20:49.079 of coming to terms with it rather than actually gotcha like a verb. It 989 01:20:49.079 --> 01:20:53.520 feels like and it feels it, and I am not I am not exaggerating. 990 01:20:54.199 --> 01:20:58.640 The blog and the written essays and the you know, I've been doing 991 01:20:58.640 --> 01:21:03.279 some audio interviews. That is therapy for me. That is therapy for me 992 01:21:03.800 --> 01:21:09.600 to try to make sense of my own set of experiences. It is me 993 01:21:10.520 --> 01:21:14.479 wrestling with these big questions, and I, in a funny sort of way, 994 01:21:14.520 --> 01:21:18.479 I as like almost like a sociological experiment. I decided that I was 995 01:21:18.520 --> 01:21:26.720 going to share publicly, you know, right on a blog format, about 996 01:21:27.680 --> 01:21:30.680 my attempts to come to terms with this. So if you scroll back and 997 01:21:30.760 --> 01:21:33.119 look at the posts from two thousand and nine, I mean, you're you 998 01:21:33.359 --> 01:21:36.439 it. I mean, it's not hidden. I was fragile and shaky and 999 01:21:36.520 --> 01:21:41.640 freaked out, and it is. It's right there presently. I'm a little 1000 01:21:41.640 --> 01:21:45.640 more at peace, and it's allowed me a little bit better to play the 1001 01:21:45.720 --> 01:21:48.199 role of researcher, where I've been looking into other stories and writing about other 1002 01:21:48.479 --> 01:21:53.199 you know, what would be current events in this in this phenomena. So, 1003 01:21:54.319 --> 01:21:55.880 yeah, it's a verb. I don't know where I'm going to be 1004 01:21:56.000 --> 01:22:00.439 next week or how I'll feel, but you know, overall, it's it's 1005 01:22:00.800 --> 01:22:03.960 my definition of reality has certainly changed. There's nothing else. I mean, 1006 01:22:03.960 --> 01:22:06.560 I could certainly say I don't know whether it's good. I don't know whether 1007 01:22:06.600 --> 01:22:10.560 it's bad. I don't know whether I'm compulsive. I don't know whether you 1008 01:22:10.560 --> 01:22:16.239 know, there's like a like a grander purpose behind the curtain for all of 1009 01:22:16.279 --> 01:22:19.960 this. I don't have any answers to that, but I do recognize that 1010 01:22:19.960 --> 01:22:26.439 that reality is far far different than I once thought it was. And so 1011 01:22:26.600 --> 01:22:33.600 what's next for you in your journey to come to terms? You know I've 1012 01:22:33.640 --> 01:22:42.000 been I don't know, I mean maybe just I just foresee continuing writing. 1013 01:22:42.560 --> 01:22:45.119 I have like kind of scratched my head. Oh you know what. Actually, 1014 01:22:45.159 --> 01:22:48.000 I have been working on a graphic novel. I've just put it aside. 1015 01:22:48.000 --> 01:22:50.319 I have another deadline, so I had to push that off the desk. 1016 01:22:50.520 --> 01:22:56.439 I have been working on a graphic novel and my illustration skills dovetail very 1017 01:22:56.520 --> 01:23:02.720 nicely to the format of a graphic novel. And it is a fictionalizing of 1018 01:23:02.760 --> 01:23:08.039 a set of events that are a little bit tied into my events at the 1019 01:23:08.039 --> 01:23:15.760 same time, not really and just and just trying to articulate using fiction. 1020 01:23:16.520 --> 01:23:24.680 Uh, some of the more challenging and bizarre things that get reported in this. 1021 01:23:24.960 --> 01:23:28.359 And you know from talking to people who've had the first hand experience, 1022 01:23:29.600 --> 01:23:33.439 and your goal with this is it to do to is it purely therapeutic or 1023 01:23:33.479 --> 01:23:40.319 is it also to like you said, articulate maybe and help others understand what 1024 01:23:40.399 --> 01:23:45.359 it might be like to to be going through this well you know a little. 1025 01:23:45.439 --> 01:23:47.399 I mean, I recognize I have an audience out there. And actually, 1026 01:23:48.119 --> 01:23:51.800 and I will say this, I met a woman at the conference in 1027 01:23:51.920 --> 01:23:57.520 Scottsdale, and she saw my name tag and came up and talked to me, 1028 01:23:58.079 --> 01:24:03.680 and and she had been dealing with her own set of experiences that were 1029 01:24:04.760 --> 01:24:13.359 in a way similar to mine, where they were open ended enough that there 1030 01:24:13.359 --> 01:24:17.800 were all kinds of doubts in her in her set of experiences, I could 1031 01:24:17.840 --> 01:24:19.920 not give her an answer to what you know, may or may not be 1032 01:24:19.960 --> 01:24:24.800 happening with her. Though, I realized what I was doing on the blog 1033 01:24:25.279 --> 01:24:30.880 and in my written work was giving uh uh, sort of articulating some of 1034 01:24:30.920 --> 01:24:36.359 the frustrations and the confusion that that she was was experiencing. And I and 1035 01:24:36.399 --> 01:24:40.039 she said as much. So I'm not I'm not putting words into her mouth, 1036 01:24:40.279 --> 01:24:45.640 but so you know, that feeling of having an audience is a way. 1037 01:24:47.680 --> 01:24:50.079 Oh, it's just a framework, I guess when I you know what 1038 01:24:50.119 --> 01:24:56.279 I'm aiming for now, which has changed since since beginning the blog. It 1039 01:24:56.520 --> 01:25:01.479 feels a little less like therapy now and feels a little more or like oh 1040 01:25:01.560 --> 01:25:04.399 like like there's a reason for it, Like there's a you know, mott 1041 01:25:04.640 --> 01:25:11.399 teeny Niche is having you know, a benefit to it. May only be 1042 01:25:11.439 --> 01:25:14.319 a few people, but you know, hopefully it's having a you know, 1043 01:25:14.359 --> 01:25:20.119 they're they're finding some solace in my my struggles and quandaries. And although your 1044 01:25:20.119 --> 01:25:24.840 goal seemed to sounds to be more therapeutic, now that you have an audience, 1045 01:25:26.199 --> 01:25:28.800 it's a small audience. I don't get them any small audience, but 1046 01:25:28.960 --> 01:25:32.159 still does it give you comfort? You know what it does is. It 1047 01:25:32.199 --> 01:25:36.479 gives me. It makes me feel like I'm stepping into the role of researcher. 1048 01:25:36.520 --> 01:25:41.680 You know, I met someone at a difference and he's you know, 1049 01:25:41.720 --> 01:25:44.399 sort of you know, you strike up a conversation in the line for the 1050 01:25:44.439 --> 01:25:45.960 drinking fountain and he said, oh, so, what brings you here? 1051 01:25:45.960 --> 01:25:48.479 And I said, oh, I guess I'm doing research, which felt honest. 1052 01:25:48.520 --> 01:25:49.840 And he said, oh, what are you researching? I mean, 1053 01:25:49.840 --> 01:25:54.399 I didn't really know. I had to think for a second. I get 1054 01:25:54.439 --> 01:25:59.680 them researching. So I'm researching myself and that felt honest. And uh so 1055 01:26:00.319 --> 01:26:05.159 it feels like I'm I'm easing my way more into the role of the researcher 1056 01:26:05.880 --> 01:26:10.560 now, so you know, and part of that just comes from the fact 1057 01:26:10.560 --> 01:26:14.600 that I have made a very real effort to reach out and talk to people, 1058 01:26:15.319 --> 01:26:19.920 uh with this experience as well as you know, either through direct telephone 1059 01:26:19.920 --> 01:26:21.960 calls I've had I don't know how many hundred cell phone calls I've had in 1060 01:26:21.960 --> 01:26:25.920 the last three years where people will contact me and I said, well, 1061 01:26:25.960 --> 01:26:28.479 let's talk on the phone and then and then I'll listen to their story. 1062 01:26:28.680 --> 01:26:33.800 So which has been it feels like I'm pretty well versed in some of the 1063 01:26:33.840 --> 01:26:39.439 oddities that that are part of this phenomenon now and it has just given me 1064 01:26:39.439 --> 01:26:43.960 a different definition of the of the of the bigger framework. Well, this 1065 01:26:44.039 --> 01:26:47.800 has been fascinating. I mean, in researching yourself, you're also researching the 1066 01:26:47.840 --> 01:26:53.520 field, and I think we've touched on a lot of really profound and interesting 1067 01:26:54.359 --> 01:26:59.319 stuff. But I guess, before we're done, as the researcher, is 1068 01:26:59.319 --> 01:27:02.680 there something you've discovered or insight you made that you want to share before we 1069 01:27:02.720 --> 01:27:10.319 wrap up here. You know, there's a few things. One of them 1070 01:27:10.439 --> 01:27:15.600 is that there's a pattern where people sort of talked about an awakening experience between 1071 01:27:15.640 --> 01:27:20.720 about two thousand and six and two thousand and eight, which matches my self 1072 01:27:20.840 --> 01:27:26.600 exactly. There were folks that there's one guy who has a similar set of 1073 01:27:26.600 --> 01:27:30.960 experiences and he started his blog on the very same day as I did. 1074 01:27:31.079 --> 01:27:38.560 Wow, and he he's exactly the same age. His first name is Michael, 1075 01:27:39.720 --> 01:27:43.800 and we went down the checklist and figured out a bunch of things that 1076 01:27:43.800 --> 01:27:46.279 we had in common. So he started his blog on the same well less 1077 01:27:46.279 --> 01:27:57.079 than twenty four hours after I started mine. So there is you know, 1078 01:27:57.159 --> 01:27:59.600 I'm very cautious to say, like, oh, I sense, you know, 1079 01:27:59.680 --> 01:28:01.399 I I'm seeing a pattern. I don't know whether it'll pan out, 1080 01:28:01.399 --> 01:28:06.720 but I sense that there are people coming forward right now in a way that 1081 01:28:06.920 --> 01:28:13.960 seems you've only have a few minutes left. It'll be hard to articulate this, 1082 01:28:14.039 --> 01:28:16.760 but you know that comes almost from an outside source. It seems like 1083 01:28:16.920 --> 01:28:25.720 there's some organized, methodical process taking place, and I am perhaps I am 1084 01:28:25.840 --> 01:28:30.920 unwittingly playing a role in it, but I do see it as a pattern. 1085 01:28:31.479 --> 01:28:36.920 So the pattern would be the things I've seen is that there are people 1086 01:28:38.000 --> 01:28:42.960 doing something almost exactly like I'm doing, and they're doing it independently of me. 1087 01:28:43.479 --> 01:28:45.039 You know, they started it on their own about the same time. 1088 01:28:46.520 --> 01:28:49.680 And you know, a bunch of things are happening right so it's easier to 1089 01:28:49.680 --> 01:28:51.960 start a blog than it would have been. I mean, there's you know, 1090 01:28:53.439 --> 01:28:56.800 even five years ago, there was very little knowledge of how to start 1091 01:28:56.800 --> 01:29:00.840 a blog, and now it's very easy. And then, you know, 1092 01:29:00.840 --> 01:29:05.560 so there's this little snowball effect where it's a little easier for someone experiencing this 1093 01:29:05.960 --> 01:29:12.199 to come forward and share their experiences than it would have been several decades ago. 1094 01:29:12.319 --> 01:29:19.079 So it's converging right now, and I recognize that it's having an impact 1095 01:29:19.159 --> 01:29:25.920 overall to these people individually and hopefully to the collective. Well, and I 1096 01:29:25.960 --> 01:29:28.960 think it's great because we don't have to wait. And that's one thing that 1097 01:29:30.560 --> 01:29:32.680 why I like to go and do because we don't have to wait. I 1098 01:29:32.720 --> 01:29:40.159 don't think ever for anybody else to come and validate our experiences or what we're 1099 01:29:40.199 --> 01:29:44.000 interested in or what we're looking into. And a lot of people feel that's 1100 01:29:44.079 --> 01:29:47.079 necessary for some reason, the mainstream has to come validate what I'm doing, 1101 01:29:47.199 --> 01:29:53.159 or else it's not worth doing, or it's embarrassing or I'm strange for it. 1102 01:29:53.239 --> 01:29:57.840 But you know, everybody has some sort of what would be perceived as 1103 01:29:57.920 --> 01:30:02.439 odd interest or an interest that is a little off from mainstream. But that's 1104 01:30:02.479 --> 01:30:08.159 okay. We're all individuals and I think that's what's wonderful where people are more 1105 01:30:08.199 --> 01:30:11.159 and more feeling enabled. Well, you know what, I'm tired of waiting. 1106 01:30:11.159 --> 01:30:14.439 I'm just going to go out and do, which is I think a 1107 01:30:14.479 --> 01:30:17.359 big key because once people start doing, then it becomes the norm. It 1108 01:30:17.399 --> 01:30:24.479 becomes something that people do. Yeah, And I feel like that that that 1109 01:30:24.520 --> 01:30:30.880 there's a there's a snowballing acceleration in that too, you know, you know, 1110 01:30:30.960 --> 01:30:38.279 like I, I had permission in a way to well, I had 1111 01:30:38.279 --> 01:30:40.479 to give myself permission to do it, you know what I mean. I 1112 01:30:40.520 --> 01:30:44.279 had to leap for me to come forward. And and that was that one 1113 01:30:44.319 --> 01:30:46.920 synchronicity, you know, that was of when Cindy Gale, you know, 1114 01:30:47.000 --> 01:30:53.119 sent me that email. Then that was the that was by far the most 1115 01:30:53.159 --> 01:30:57.039 profound experience of all in a way, you know, her connecting to me 1116 01:30:57.079 --> 01:31:00.359 at that moment. It was all tied into the blog. It was into 1117 01:31:00.359 --> 01:31:05.920 that event of nineteen seventy four. It was tied into my own struggles trying 1118 01:31:05.920 --> 01:31:11.479 to make sense of this, my own fears, and it gave me permission 1119 01:31:11.560 --> 01:31:15.720 to go ahead. I trusted the synchronicity and just you know, jumped off 1120 01:31:15.720 --> 01:31:20.720 the cliff in essence, you know, just abandoned myself to this journey which 1121 01:31:20.760 --> 01:31:28.199 has been challenging and at the same time very very interesting and rewarding. Well, 1122 01:31:28.279 --> 01:31:30.680 this has been an interesting and rewarding talk for me. Of course, 1123 01:31:30.720 --> 01:31:33.640 we could go on and talk, but we are out of time. But 1124 01:31:33.720 --> 01:31:36.720 I do want to thank you so much for doing this interview with me. 1125 01:31:36.920 --> 01:31:41.119 I think it's going to be wonderful, and I want to remind people Hidden 1126 01:31:41.279 --> 01:31:45.920 Experience dot blogspot dot com is where they can go read your blog and also 1127 01:31:45.960 --> 01:31:50.479 see the timeline of events. Great, and I've also done a handful of 1128 01:31:51.039 --> 01:31:57.000 well I've probably got over sixty hours of audio down there too, So a 1129 01:31:57.000 --> 01:32:00.840 great long list of interviews here. Yeah, those we're all very personal. 1130 01:32:00.880 --> 01:32:03.199 I don't have any agenda when I start those, So I mean agenda in 1131 01:32:03.239 --> 01:32:05.800 the sense that I don't have a weekly schedule, I don't have a time 1132 01:32:06.119 --> 01:32:09.479 frame. So some of them are short, some of them are three hours 1133 01:32:09.479 --> 01:32:15.279 long. So all right, great, what were you gonna say? No, 1134 01:32:15.359 --> 01:32:16.920 they just they just came from a place of you know, like those 1135 01:32:16.920 --> 01:32:19.479 are the people I wanted to talk to. You know. It wasn't like 1136 01:32:19.960 --> 01:32:26.399 still a weekly slot or anything like that. Very organic. Yes, well, 1137 01:32:26.399 --> 01:32:29.279 thank you so much for being on the show. You're very welcome. 1138 01:32:30.960 --> 01:32:33.960 All right. For more information about Mike, you can visit his website at 1139 01:32:34.039 --> 01:32:40.840 Hiddenexperience dot blogspot dot com. We are out of time, don't forget to 1140 01:32:41.039 --> 01:32:46.680 check ufodailynews dot com for the latest UFO news, including all those really cool 1141 01:32:46.680 --> 01:32:50.880 stories we talked about. Don't forget to look at my thank xpi's Huffington Post 1142 01:32:50.920 --> 01:32:56.479 story. And I want to thank more than just Pablo for this closed music, 1143 01:32:56.520 --> 01:33:00.880 but the whole group two Earthmnute, Two Earthmnutes created this great close music. 1144 01:33:01.239 --> 01:33:04.600 Thank you all for listening. We will talk to you next week. 1145 01:33:04.800 --> 01:33:06.359 Are you a smooth ators