WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.440 --> 00:00:06.559 Our next article is about an inmate in West Virginia. The article is called 2 00:00:06.599 --> 00:00:13.519 West Virginia can't require incarcerated atheist to participate in religious programmings was by AP News 3 00:00:13.599 --> 00:00:18.920 by Leah Willingham, published on July twentieth of this year. So what's going 4 00:00:18.960 --> 00:00:26.120 on here is there has been a hullabaloo in a prison where Andrew Miller, 5 00:00:26.440 --> 00:00:31.160 an inmate for breaking and entering, was serving a one to ten year sentence. 6 00:00:31.480 --> 00:00:36.079 And now drugs were not part of his issue with the breaking and entering. 7 00:00:36.119 --> 00:00:41.479 As a matter of fact, he'd been seeing a secular psychiatrist therapist for 8 00:00:42.039 --> 00:00:46.000 quite a while and he'd been sober for four years. So this was before 9 00:00:46.000 --> 00:00:49.359 the breaking and entering though, and that was on his record. So when 10 00:00:49.359 --> 00:00:52.560 he went to jail, they said, you're going to have to do our 11 00:00:52.679 --> 00:00:57.520 rehab program. Problem is, the rehab program is one of those twelve step 12 00:00:57.600 --> 00:01:03.280 deals, and those things are remarkably religious. And that is what this judge 13 00:01:03.520 --> 00:01:10.159 found. And because he refused to participate in a situation where they're telling him 14 00:01:10.480 --> 00:01:15.959 that he has to hear about how he's sinful for rejecting God and be encouraged 15 00:01:17.000 --> 00:01:21.319 to give his life to God. And be discouraged from taking personal agency. 16 00:01:22.959 --> 00:01:26.959 His sentence was going to be a lot longer than if he had. So 17 00:01:27.239 --> 00:01:34.239 this effectively has become go to church or stay in jail long. And that's 18 00:01:34.280 --> 00:01:38.879 what this judge has decided. And finally we have some good news here. 19 00:01:38.959 --> 00:01:44.000 This is the right call I think it is. What do you guys think? 20 00:01:44.079 --> 00:01:47.760 What's up? Chris? This is awesome? This is like a really 21 00:01:47.799 --> 00:01:51.439 good ruling. It's it's kind of crazy to me that a the taxpayers have 22 00:01:51.560 --> 00:01:56.760 been subsidizing this sort of a religious program, and it's it's crazy also that 23 00:01:57.359 --> 00:02:00.280 I mean incarcerations ostensibly for the purpose of rehabilitation, and it's hard to be 24 00:02:00.319 --> 00:02:04.799 rehabilitated if part of your requirements to be rehabilitated or to at least, you 25 00:02:04.799 --> 00:02:09.159 know, shorten your sentence via the rules are actually violate your freedom of religion 26 00:02:09.280 --> 00:02:13.560 or freedom from religion. UM. So this is a really good ruling. 27 00:02:13.840 --> 00:02:16.680 UM. I hope this. I hope this helps across the board and in 28 00:02:16.759 --> 00:02:20.719 more states than just just this one. Um, and that at least to 29 00:02:20.759 --> 00:02:23.680 an overall change in the way the prison system works and the way the parole 30 00:02:23.759 --> 00:02:25.759 system works. What do you think, Scott? Yeah, um um, 31 00:02:25.840 --> 00:02:29.680 I agree. I think this is a great Uh, this is definitely a 32 00:02:29.680 --> 00:02:32.680 step in the right direction. Tm. But but but I think it's a 33 00:02:32.680 --> 00:02:36.800 it's a good example of of what I think is one of the themes on 34 00:02:37.159 --> 00:02:42.319 the nonprofits, and that is a religion garner's unwarranted trust from the public. 35 00:02:42.439 --> 00:02:46.919 And it's just based on the fact that it's religious alone, that it's it's 36 00:02:46.960 --> 00:02:51.240 seen as a good thing or you know, you hear the phrase good Christian, 37 00:02:51.400 --> 00:02:53.240 right, Well, those words don't always necessarily have to go together. 38 00:02:53.639 --> 00:02:58.039 We know that Christians can be just as nasty as anyone else. Um. 39 00:02:58.159 --> 00:03:00.520 But but it's just, uh, it's it's unwarranted trust. We see the 40 00:03:00.599 --> 00:03:05.240 same thing happen. And these stories actually, sadly, very sadly, are 41 00:03:05.439 --> 00:03:07.960 are much more common in the news, the about the child abuse, the 42 00:03:08.039 --> 00:03:13.599 child sexual abuse in the church and particularly in the Catholic Church. But families 43 00:03:13.639 --> 00:03:17.919 trust these clergy members with their children because they're religious figures and they're and they're 44 00:03:19.080 --> 00:03:22.439 they're taught from an early age that you know, the religion is good, 45 00:03:22.560 --> 00:03:25.680 Christianity is good, or whatever whatever the religion happens to be. These religious 46 00:03:25.759 --> 00:03:30.639 leaders are trustworthy and to put our money where our mouth is. And it's 47 00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:34.759 almost like maybe a virtue signaling as well, look at us we trust with 48 00:03:34.800 --> 00:03:38.080 our children, you know, our most valuable possession or what should be our 49 00:03:38.080 --> 00:03:40.719 most valuable valuable possession, go, you know, go off and you know, 50 00:03:40.879 --> 00:03:46.080 teach them and do them well, and and you know we've seen what 51 00:03:46.120 --> 00:03:47.599 happens there, and so this is the same kind of thing. Um. 52 00:03:47.599 --> 00:03:53.319 You know, we know that these twelve step programs there's questionable success rates at 53 00:03:53.400 --> 00:03:57.400 best. I mean, there's numbers all over the place, and I think 54 00:03:57.400 --> 00:04:01.319 it's it's really difficult to tie them down on because well, because you know, 55 00:04:01.360 --> 00:04:04.719 many of these programs are anonymous. They're not allowed to gather data. 56 00:04:04.759 --> 00:04:08.800 And I wonder if that is intended or I wonder if that is. You 57 00:04:08.840 --> 00:04:11.400 know, the cynic in me is saying, well, they just don't want 58 00:04:11.400 --> 00:04:15.240 to have to be accountable and responsible. Um, although the skeptic in me 59 00:04:15.360 --> 00:04:17.319 says, well, you know, maybe not, maybe they're just maybe they're 60 00:04:17.399 --> 00:04:23.000 maybe there's good intent behind that anonymity, and you know it's just a side 61 00:04:23.040 --> 00:04:25.720 effect here. But um, you know, but we see that this kind 62 00:04:25.759 --> 00:04:30.360 of this effectiveness of these programs is like I said, uh, variable at 63 00:04:30.439 --> 00:04:33.240 best, and so but it's trusted because oh it says God right there. 64 00:04:33.319 --> 00:04:35.639 Okay, so that means we need to go along with that. Maley, 65 00:04:35.720 --> 00:04:40.360 I know that you had something to say on that topic of success rates. 66 00:04:41.040 --> 00:04:44.920 Yeah. Well, like you said, it's it's very hard to pin it 67 00:04:45.040 --> 00:04:48.079 down. And I tried to look all over the place for results, and 68 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:54.199 you know, I saw as high as sixty percent, six zero percent and 69 00:04:54.600 --> 00:04:59.519 uh so the Skylance dodes Um. You can listen to his interview on NPR, 70 00:04:59.680 --> 00:05:04.680 get his book about this stuff. But he really looked into the numbers 71 00:05:04.759 --> 00:05:09.360 and did the best he could with the information he had. He's a very 72 00:05:09.360 --> 00:05:13.439 good approach and I forget exactly what he did, but he talks about it 73 00:05:13.480 --> 00:05:18.040 in the interview to check it out, and he estimates somewhere between five and 74 00:05:18.160 --> 00:05:24.519 ten percent. You know, wow, that is definitely not sixty And I 75 00:05:24.560 --> 00:05:28.199 think he talks specifically about that sixty percent figure. Again, I need to 76 00:05:28.240 --> 00:05:30.759 listen to it again to be sure, but it's a twelve minute interview worth 77 00:05:30.800 --> 00:05:34.319 listening to. When it does work though, and this is the key part 78 00:05:34.639 --> 00:05:42.040 it's about. It seems to boil down to being around people with a similar 79 00:05:42.319 --> 00:05:46.199 mindedness to you, you know, being in a community of people who are 80 00:05:46.240 --> 00:05:48.120 trying to better themselves in the same way that you are. You know, 81 00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:55.040 shoulders to lean on encouragement, you know, and you can get that without 82 00:05:55.120 --> 00:06:00.439 the God thing for good and darn sure. But that's that's what's effective when 83 00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:04.839 it is effective. So what are they touting this these kind of programs for. 84 00:06:05.040 --> 00:06:10.240 What is it? It's not for the effectiveness. Um, it's just 85 00:06:10.480 --> 00:06:16.360 because it's religious, I guess. And the state is mandating this, well, 86 00:06:16.480 --> 00:06:23.720 I guess maybe not quite mandating so much as not giving you because you 87 00:06:23.759 --> 00:06:27.879 know, parole isn't required, you're not guaranteed it, right right, Yeah, 88 00:06:27.879 --> 00:06:30.399 it's mandating, not mandating, but gun to your head you have. 89 00:06:31.399 --> 00:06:40.079 It's it's a difference between the stick and threatening you by saying no carrot for 90 00:06:40.160 --> 00:06:46.920 you. It's effectively the same thing. It's jail or church, take pick 91 00:06:46.959 --> 00:06:50.120 your poison. That's what it boils down to. Yeah, I wonder if 92 00:06:50.319 --> 00:06:55.720 just being um opposed to a program like this, a Christian program like this, 93 00:06:55.920 --> 00:07:00.160 is just dangerous as to somebody trying to get parole out of some places 94 00:07:00.319 --> 00:07:02.839 in this country. Anyway, Mally, before we started the show, you 95 00:07:02.839 --> 00:07:06.759 mentioned the Bible belt. If somebody's down in the Bible Belt, then they're 96 00:07:06.759 --> 00:07:11.040 in prison and they are a known atheist. Is that going to hurt them 97 00:07:11.120 --> 00:07:14.319 on their chances for parole? And I'm afraid it would it? Really, 98 00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:16.639 I really am. One of the things that really stood out to me really 99 00:07:16.680 --> 00:07:19.639 about this program was and I'm going to read this, I'm going to risk 100 00:07:19.680 --> 00:07:24.240 myself sounding like a middle school or talking doing a book report. But this 101 00:07:24.319 --> 00:07:28.879 came from a US Justice Department memo from nineteen ninety four. As part of 102 00:07:28.920 --> 00:07:33.480 their rehabilitation, many inmates are ordered to attend alcoholics anonymous meetings. This practice 103 00:07:33.600 --> 00:07:38.639 is ineffective and maybe a violation of prisoners civil rights. This is from the 104 00:07:38.720 --> 00:07:44.040 Justice Department nineteen ninety four. Prisons should offer a variety of treatment options for 105 00:07:44.079 --> 00:07:48.439 alcoholic inmates. So it surprises me somewhat that West Virginia it took this long 106 00:07:48.600 --> 00:07:53.680 to come on board with this Justice Department memo. This is what like thirty 107 00:07:53.800 --> 00:07:58.720 years later? What were they thinking? You know? And I wonder if 108 00:07:58.759 --> 00:08:03.879 the state legislature has a bill right now how to make teaching intelligent design in 109 00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:07.480 public schools legal now, because I mean, this is this seems so backwards 110 00:08:07.639 --> 00:08:11.560 to me in this state, and I'm really worried about things like this. 111 00:08:11.959 --> 00:08:16.839 Uh, Chris, you have something you'd like to add. Yeah, it 112 00:08:16.920 --> 00:08:20.079 really doesn't surprise me unfortunately, Um, that it did take this long, 113 00:08:20.199 --> 00:08:24.199 especially in a state in this area. M What bothers me is that I'm 114 00:08:24.279 --> 00:08:26.680 very skeptical that, well, this is a good story. I'm very skeptical 115 00:08:26.839 --> 00:08:31.279 that it's actually gonna have a lasting impact because I mean, what are the 116 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:35.360 chances that people on that parole board that we're making that decision did or didn't 117 00:08:35.440 --> 00:08:39.559 know about the religiosity of this specific program and in the objections I mean, 118 00:08:39.600 --> 00:08:43.159 I believe that he would have had the opportunity to, you know, voice 119 00:08:43.159 --> 00:08:46.159 his objections to that specific program. So they made this decision with the full 120 00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:50.240 knowledge of of the the issue. So I'm just sort of wondering if these 121 00:08:50.279 --> 00:08:54.960 sort of biases are just going to take another form at the end of the 122 00:08:54.039 --> 00:08:58.080 day. Well, I think you're onto something there, because because these parole 123 00:08:58.120 --> 00:09:01.960 boards are people. They're human beings. You know, they're not robots interpreting 124 00:09:01.039 --> 00:09:05.759 the law or executing the law or whatever not yet, but um, but 125 00:09:05.799 --> 00:09:11.000 these are these are human beings. They're from that area. And I think 126 00:09:11.080 --> 00:09:16.320 if what I'm hoping that something like this would do would be to clarify the 127 00:09:16.759 --> 00:09:22.840 decision making process for for these boards so that way they can so a they 128 00:09:22.879 --> 00:09:26.679 have guidance on how to make their decisions and whether parole is warranted or not, 129 00:09:26.840 --> 00:09:31.320 but also be that there's accountability for these people. They're making very important 130 00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:35.200 decisions about these people's lives. This was a decision on whether or not somebody 131 00:09:35.240 --> 00:09:37.480 was going to stay in prison or was going to be set free, you 132 00:09:37.480 --> 00:09:41.039 know, having satisfied the requirement, you know, they're paid their debt to 133 00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:45.960 society, as it were, And so these are big things for these people. 134 00:09:46.159 --> 00:09:48.960 And it's and it's almost it's almost like a flippancy. It's almost like 135 00:09:50.039 --> 00:09:56.320 a like a it's more important to stress the religiosity or it's more important to 136 00:09:56.399 --> 00:09:58.720 make that point than to oh, well, oh it's gonna you know, 137 00:10:00.039 --> 00:10:01.960 this person's going to stay in jail because of my decision. Oh well, 138 00:10:03.000 --> 00:10:05.000 you know, that's the way it goes. You know, it's we need 139 00:10:05.039 --> 00:10:09.720 to take the decision making out out of the out of the dark. Out 140 00:10:09.759 --> 00:10:11.679 of the dark, right, we need to shine light on it, we 141 00:10:11.720 --> 00:10:16.519 need to have clarity of purpose. We have to have clarity of execution. 142 00:10:16.639 --> 00:10:20.279 We have to have clarity accountability, who's done what, and so that way, 143 00:10:20.320 --> 00:10:22.879 if something does happen, then you know, we can go back and 144 00:10:22.279 --> 00:10:26.440 look at it. So I think so hopefully my hope would be that that 145 00:10:26.559 --> 00:10:30.559 it would be something that we could get out of this. If this brings 146 00:10:30.600 --> 00:10:33.360 attention to this type of thing, Like you're saying, nineteen ninety what was 147 00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:37.200 it, nineteen ninety four, that the ninety four, Yeah, that this 148 00:10:37.320 --> 00:10:41.000 had been decided already, and so what we're thirty years later? Okay, 149 00:10:41.000 --> 00:10:45.080 well thirty years is better than nothing, but you know, if it's taking 150 00:10:45.080 --> 00:10:48.960 this long. There are other places. I tried to find out how religious 151 00:10:48.000 --> 00:10:52.159 West Virginia is. I'm not really familiar with that area. What what I 152 00:10:52.200 --> 00:10:56.000 gathered was they were slightly more religious than the nation as a whole. Um. 153 00:10:56.039 --> 00:11:00.279 If anybody knows better than that, then let me know. But don't 154 00:11:00.320 --> 00:11:03.000 I just lost my track train of thought there, So I don't know, 155 00:11:03.200 --> 00:11:05.519 Kelly, take bail me out here. I'm going to send it back to 156 00:11:05.559 --> 00:11:11.360 Chris because I know Chris has something, so no, I just I'm kind 157 00:11:11.360 --> 00:11:13.919 of wondering how they're really going to be able to fix this because there's really 158 00:11:13.919 --> 00:11:18.159 only two options, um, now that this has been ruled unconstitutional, and 159 00:11:18.200 --> 00:11:20.799 that is either to give to give an another option to give some sort of 160 00:11:20.840 --> 00:11:26.480 a program that is a religious So they have those two options, which is 161 00:11:26.519 --> 00:11:30.440 just going to highlight who chooses which one and give them another area to be 162 00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:33.799 biased about, or it's going to lead them to have to remove the religiosity 163 00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:37.559 from the program entirely. Um, And like Scott was saying, to bring 164 00:11:37.600 --> 00:11:41.159 the sort of the decision making out out of the out of the darkness and 165 00:11:41.159 --> 00:11:43.720 into the light and removing the ability to have that sort of a bias. 166 00:11:43.919 --> 00:11:46.799 That's what I That was my That's the point that I forgot that would lost 167 00:11:46.799 --> 00:11:50.559 track of that was it? Thank you Chris for reading my mind and for 168 00:11:50.799 --> 00:11:52.759 putting that period right at the end of that sentence for me. I appreciate 169 00:11:52.799 --> 00:11:54.919 that we need to have Chris around Bore. I guess, yeah, no 170 00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:58.360 kidding. Can you come and hang out with me in the classroom sometime? 171 00:12:01.279 --> 00:12:05.039 And you know, I to follow up on that. Though these programs are 172 00:12:05.120 --> 00:12:09.399 usually voluntary, they're run by volunteers, they're not they're not funded by the 173 00:12:09.440 --> 00:12:13.759 state. And if we are going to offer another program, a secular program, 174 00:12:15.039 --> 00:12:18.159 we need to get the volunteers for it. I'm always talking about volunteering 175 00:12:18.200 --> 00:12:22.440 for a good cause. This is a good cause. I'm not saying it 176 00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:24.000 telling everyone they should go out and do it. But if you are going 177 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:26.639 to do something, this might be something that you want to think about to 178 00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:31.440 change the world into a better place. So um, that's what I'd like 179 00:12:31.519 --> 00:12:35.639 to see is to see more volunteers come out to run these programs. And 180 00:12:35.720 --> 00:12:37.720 I don't think we're going to be able to change this until we have that 181 00:12:39.039 --> 00:12:43.919 ability to provide these other programs to people. Without being able to provide the 182 00:12:43.960 --> 00:12:48.120 program, the people like our defendant here are going to be stuck. They're 183 00:12:48.120 --> 00:12:50.799 just going to be stuck. So I don't I don't know where to go 184 00:12:50.840 --> 00:12:52.879 without that. So, Mally, what what do you got for us? 185 00:12:54.360 --> 00:12:58.720 Well, you know, I don't know that it would be that difficult to 186 00:12:58.720 --> 00:13:05.360 take the religiosity out of it. The framework's there, The camaraderie that solves 187 00:13:05.399 --> 00:13:09.240 the problems, when the problems get solved, is there. You know that 188 00:13:09.399 --> 00:13:13.559 you have the high I'm you know, Malle, and I'm an alcoholic. 189 00:13:13.639 --> 00:13:16.879 I actually, well, no, I'm not. Well, it's there, 190 00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:22.000 so there's not a whole lot that needs to be subtracted. The major points 191 00:13:22.120 --> 00:13:28.720 are things like, you know you'll die in alcoholic hopeless death without God. 192 00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:35.559 Maybe take that out. And you know you are irresponsible in lack of agency. 193 00:13:35.799 --> 00:13:39.639 Maybe take that out. And you know there's um, there's not a 194 00:13:39.679 --> 00:13:43.279 whole lot more to be done. I don't think you know, you could 195 00:13:43.320 --> 00:13:46.759 have two tracks in this program, you know, one where you know you 196 00:13:46.799 --> 00:13:50.720 are responsible for yourself and you're gonna learn the coping skills, and another one 197 00:13:52.039 --> 00:13:56.600 for the people who feel too helpless to do anything without a daddy involved. 198 00:13:56.519 --> 00:14:00.840 It's just a thought. I mean, I don't know that. I's it's 199 00:14:00.840 --> 00:14:05.399 not a bad thought. If that was the case, the Christians would probably 200 00:14:05.399 --> 00:14:07.720 withdraw the funding. My dad ran an Alano club. That's the club the 201 00:14:07.759 --> 00:14:11.840 AA sets up an Alano club. He ran his local Alano club for like 202 00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:16.799 fifty years, and he was not a believer. And I when he passed 203 00:14:16.799 --> 00:14:20.000 away, and they had a memorial service for him there, and I went 204 00:14:20.039 --> 00:14:24.159 there and it went on for six hours of people coming up and talking about 205 00:14:24.159 --> 00:14:28.919 how he had changed their lives and got them out of alcoholism. And he 206 00:14:30.039 --> 00:14:33.320 did it being an atheist. I mean, he did it with the alcoholics 207 00:14:33.320 --> 00:14:35.279 anonymous, with the twelve step program, but he did it as an atheist. 208 00:14:35.279 --> 00:14:39.039 So I know it's possible to do it. And I know that, 209 00:14:39.159 --> 00:14:41.240 like I have heard that again, like it was mentioned before, five to 210 00:14:41.279 --> 00:14:46.879 ten percent success rate, My dad seemed to have a lot bigger better success 211 00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:50.480 rate than that. It seemed like anyway, at least that's six hours of 212 00:14:50.480 --> 00:14:52.240 people coming up there. I can't say how many people dropped out of the 213 00:14:52.279 --> 00:14:56.080 program, but maybe maybe that they need to get rid of God. Maybe 214 00:14:56.120 --> 00:15:01.159 that might be a key to making more people successful in the well. There 215 00:15:01.159 --> 00:15:05.480 are other options too besides uh, you know, talk therapy or group therapy, 216 00:15:05.519 --> 00:15:07.200 that kind of thing. There's medication out there. There's was it now 217 00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:11.720 trek Zone is that the anti addiction drug. I mean they've had great success 218 00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:16.720 with with NAL trek Zone and there's uh, there was a good uh Malle 219 00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:20.720 mentioned Lance Dode and that reminded me of this article that I saw in the 220 00:15:20.759 --> 00:15:26.039 Atlantic many years ago, and they did a big review of all the different 221 00:15:26.039 --> 00:15:30.320 types of programs and they found that the AA was the worst and that the 222 00:15:30.679 --> 00:15:37.120 most effective, uh treatment was just take a pill and and and it affected 223 00:15:37.159 --> 00:15:39.720 the uh you know, the pleasure centers in the brain that are triggered by 224 00:15:39.720 --> 00:15:43.879 this addictive behavior. And you know, that's that's attacking the problem. But 225 00:15:43.879 --> 00:15:48.039 but you know that doesn't have God, and so you know, I don't 226 00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:50.960 know how that would go. But there are options. I mean, there 227 00:15:50.039 --> 00:15:54.600 are options, that's the thing. And so they're they're kind of um and 228 00:15:54.639 --> 00:15:58.159 I you know, I maybe making this full circle back to that unwarranted trust. 229 00:15:58.200 --> 00:16:00.159 You know, if they have options that that are effective and that do 230 00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:04.399 work, they're putting this this unwarranted trust in this program just because it says 231 00:16:04.840 --> 00:16:08.480 that maybe they just do a word search for God and the document and any 232 00:16:08.559 --> 00:16:11.559 you know, oh, it mentions God forty eight times there and only two 233 00:16:11.600 --> 00:16:17.039 times over here. God can solve all of our problems. So exactly right. 234 00:16:17.120 --> 00:16:19.440 Of course, God would also be the source of all of those problems 235 00:16:19.480 --> 00:16:22.759 too, is the source of all right. But uh but that's you know, 236 00:16:23.039 --> 00:16:26.399 that's a that's that's I'm taking that out of context. I guess I 237 00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:30.799 forgot one thing to add, and that is ya, science exactly definitely, 238 00:16:32.559 --> 00:16:37.039 Yes, yeah, we can figure out what works and what doesn't if we 239 00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:41.399 apply the right methods to what we look out crazy, you know, all 240 00:16:41.480 --> 00:16:45.600 right? Um, I guess we'll wrap it up there then, And if 241 00:16:45.639 --> 00:16:49.480 you like continue this conversation, you can check out some of our ACA fan 242 00:16:49.639 --> 00:16:56.679 run social media like the Facebook groups and the Discord servers. So if you'd 243 00:16:56.679 --> 00:17:00.159 like to hear more from the nonprofits, you can find it right here or