You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas.
I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now
trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other
victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway
murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together
with Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a
researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social
media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner
in crime, Bill Thomas. Thank you so much for coming. We're so
excited to have you here for this live podcasting event. This is a very
first time we've hosted a podcast, let alone one that was also live recording
at the same time, so we're excited about it. I don't know if
you're familiar with the Mind over Murder podcast. How many people listen? Wonderful
yay, So I'm guessing you might know two of these people up here and
maybe more. We wanted to welcome Kristin Dilly and Bill Thomas along with their
guest Joyce Call Canada, who's the sister of Keith Call. This is definitely
a different format for them, but they're gonna start with the presentation and then
there will be questions and answers afterwards, So hold your questions until then and
you'll be able to hang out on this awesome mic for those questions. Without
further ado, I'm gonna hand it off to Kristin and Bill and we'll go
ahead and start with our traditional opening. So thank you so much to everybody
you're listening to the Mind of a Murder podcast. I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm
Bill Thomas, and we're here for a live podcasting event at the Yorktown Library
and this is definitely a first for us. Thank you to everybody who came
out tonight. We appreciate you so much. Give yourselves a NDI applause.
We're coming out with us. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
So we're gonna go ahead and start with a little bit of a presentation.
We know not everybody comes to the case with the same amount of information,
so we will go ahead and talk a little bit about us as a podcast,
and then we'll get into case specific details. So a little bit about
Bill and I. We are obviously true crime podcasters and victims' advocates. Bill
is the brother of Kathy Thomas, who was the first victim along with her
girlfriend Rebecca Adowski, in the Colonial Parkway murders. And I am an advocate
who in twenty sixteen cold called Bill and said, Hey, I think I'd
like to write a book about your case. And he said that's a little
weird, but okay. So and after extensively vetting me for a couple of
hours, he was like, yeah, I think she's fine. So we
have been working together on this podcast since January twenty twenty. We're in our
fourth successful season with more than one point five million downloads to date, and
I don't know how that happened. We are dedicated to exploring and discussing all
of the facets of the Colonial of Parkway murders, case forensics, investigation,
suspects. We rile up the FBI occasionally. They don't seem to enjoy that
very much, but we get some fun out of it. Right. Fun
might not be exactly how I put it, but our goal ultimately is to
be advocates for the victims and their families, like Bill and Joyce. And
we want to thank you guys again so much for being here tonight for our
very first live event. This is very new and a little terrifying, but
we're just going to do our best. Yeah, because usually when we're doing
the podcast. Now, I live in Connecticut, Kristin lives in Williamsburg,
just down the road. I guess that might be up the road anyway,
which every direction over there. Normally when we're doing Mind over Murder, we're
just looking at each other, and for example, if we have Joyce on
as a guest, so there might be two people on the screen in front
of you. We're doing it remotely, and we know we're talking to ultimately
millions of people, but you try not to think about that, and you're
mostly focused on the conversation and maybe your notes in front of you and talking
to your guests. Kristen said earlier, we've never done this with a room
full of people, so this is all on experiment. I do teach in
front of teenagers on the regular, so you guys are a much less demanding
audience. Thank you for that. You're not as tough as a room full
of teenagers. We hope that you enjoy the presentation this evening, and we
are happy to take your questions afterward. Also, so far, I don't
know a lot about the teenagers you teach, but based on what you've told
me, these folks seem better behaved generally. Yes, yes, absolutely,
thank you very much for that. By the way, so obviously we've done
some brief introductions already, Phil, Joyce, and Kristen, and we want
to spend a little bit of time before we start letting Bill and Joyce talk
about their loved ones. Bill, can you give us a couple of words
about Kathy to start us off, please. The Colonial Parkway murders begin sadly
with the murder of my sister Kathy Thomas, who's three years stronger than I
am, along with her girlfriend Rebecca Dowski, whom we had not met at
the time time of their murder. We were supposed to meet Becky, her
new girlfriend, at Thanksgiving that year, and those of you that know anything
about the history of the case know that Kathy and Becky died in October nineteen
eighty six. A little bit of bragging about Kathy, she really is an
amazing pioneer. Let me give you a few facts about Kathy. None of
this is as a result of anything I did. This is my sister's doing.
She was graduate of the United States Naval Academy in the second class with
women. At a time when I wouldn't be exaggerating at all to say this,
the Navy was extremely unwelcoming of women heading towards command. The Naval Academy
wasn't much better. So there was a tremendous amount of flat out harassment and
they were made to feel incredibly unwelcome. And this carried over by the way
into the fleet. So when I meet young naval officers, both women and
men, now I love hearing no one's saying it's perfect. The military is
always going to be a challenge in career choice. It sounds like things have
come a long way. Clearly, we all know, especially the women in
the room, that we have a lot more work to do. Kathy and
her classmates are an amazing group of women and men, but those women in
particular really stand out. Kathy's graduate of the Naval Academy. My father,
Joe Thomas, graduated from the Naval Academy as well in fifty three. My
older brother Richard graduated from Annapolis in seventy five. They're the first father daughter
son graduates of the Naval Academy. It's happened a bunch since, but somebody
had to be first, and it was Kathy. She graduated and she served
in the Navy for five years. She served aboard the submarine tender, the
l Y Spear, which was homeported here in Norfolk. She made a decision
to leave the Navy after five years. If you go to Annapolis or any
of the service academies, they educate you for four uo the services five.
She made a decision to leave the Navy as a result of being investigated for
being a lesbian, which she was, and she felt like this wasn't the
right time or the right place for her, despite the fact that she had
helped to have a long navy career like my dad had and my older brother
Richard did. She was working as a stockbroker in Virginia Beach at the time
of her death, and she's survived by me. I'm her middle brother,
my older brother Richard, and our younger brother, Jack Thomas. We also
have a half sister through the wonders of DNA, the amazing things you can
discover on ancestry dot com. You have a half sister, you don't know
anything about Stephanie as well. And then Joyce, funny, you spend a
couple of minutes and tell us a little bit about Keith. You can see
on the screen right back there, Keith to your microphone. Joyce, by
the way, loves public speaking. It's her favorite thing. Keith was my
younger brother. He's seven years younger. There was five of us in the
family. He turned nineteen on March eighth, and he was murdered on April
the tenth, so just a month after he turned nineteen years old. He
was still a kid. I still called him a kid. He was attending
his first year at Christopher Newport College it was then Christopher Newport University, and
he was going for computer science. He liked computers, even back then,
in nineteen eighty eight, before they were the thing. He was really into
it. All in all, I didn't get beat up by Keith like my
younger brother Doug did. Here so said he. All in all, Keith
was just a regular good kid. I know, he wasn't perfect, but
he went to school he was going to school, he worked part time,
he graduated from high school. He was happy, He enjoyed harassing the youngest
brother here, Steven a lot, and just he had his whole life ahead
of him. So it was five of us in the family, so it
could be a little chaotic at times. And I don't know. He just
left one evening to go out with a friends and never came back home.
That was it. That's what happened. Thank you, Joyce for telling us
about Keith. Does bring us to our overview of the Colonial Parkway murders.
Now, because many of you have said that you are fans of the podcast,
Thank you, You're probably very familiar with the overview that we're going to
give you, but we are going to get into some territory that you may
not be familiar with. So if you're familiar with the case already, just
hang in here with us for a couple of minutes so as you can see
on the map behind us, and it's also on the screen right behind you,
by the way, in case you don't want to look over our shoulders.
The Colonial Parkway murders essentially are a series of four double homicides from nineteen
eighty six to nineteen eighty nine, with recent events unfolding the way that we
have also learned that there is another case with relation to the Colonial Parkway murders,
and that is the murder of Teresa Howell in nineteen eighty nine. So
at some point or another, we're going to have to update this map.
Yep. So the Colonial Parkway murders victims are as followers, and I would
like to put them up here on screen so that you can see them.
Anna, Maria Fell, Rebecca Dawski, Cassandra Haley, Kathy Thomas, daniel
Lewler, David Nobley, and Keith Call and Robin Edwards something. Let me
add something here to. We have postcards here which we want to encourage you
to take, particularly the postcards about Alan Wade Wilmer. Will we talk about
him in a minute. The photographs of the victims, and that map which
we actually reference all the time. All of them are there available. So
if you flip over the postcard, there's the map on the backside with all
of the detail that you're seeing there. And A we really appreciate your interest,
but B we know we're going to hit you with a lot of information
tonight before we get to the questions and answers. So that's what those are
there for, so please feel free to take them, especially the Wilmer postcard,
which we just had printed up specially for tonight. Bill. You're typically
tend to do the best summary of this, so do you really quickly want
to go through a quick summary of the four cases? Will continue, okay
with the Colonial Parkway murders. What I've said for years is you have strange
sequence of events. It's four couples, a lesbian couple and three straight couples.
It's actually a three year period from beginning to end nineteen eighty six to
nineteen eighty nine. You've got a situation where you have two FBI cases,
Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Dowski, and the disappearance of Keith Colin Cassandra Haley.
Both of those incidents happened on the Colonial Parkway. As best we can tell,
as as we'll get into some conversation with Joyce about this, We're not
even one hundred percent certain that Keith and Sandy ever made it to the Parkway.
All we know is that his car was found on the parkway. So
incidents one in three the odd numbers are FBI cases Incidents two and four.
The even numbers are Virginia State Police cases the murder of David Lee Knobling and
Robin Edwards, And of course we had the very exciting news, which we'll
talk about in more depth in a few minutes. That case is now effectively
solved, with the exciting development that finally, through DNA testing, identified Alan
Wade Wilmer Senior as the killer of Robin Edwards and David Nobling. Skipping ahead
to incident number four, Daniel Lower and Anna Maria Phelps. They are traveling
along Interstate sixty four over Labor Day weekend and they are found probably stabbed to
death at a hunt club off Interstate sixty four. Kristin and I we spend
a tremendous amount of time discussing this case with other family members. For us,
incident number four was always the one that stuck out that we felt didn't
fit as well as the others. It's not near water, and the way
that the bodies were treated it always felt very different to us. We'll have
to see where things go. Hopefully in the coming months we're going to see
more developments in this case and from talking to our friends and law enforcement who
were working in this case very actively, were very hopeful that we'll see further
developments in the Colonial Parkway murders incident number four at least for quite some time.
And I'm perfectly content to be wrong here, but Phelpslower was the case
that always felt like it didn't quite fit. Let me stop there, because
there's so much more to talk about. There is a lot that we want
to unpack. So let's move ahead to January eighth, which if anybody here
was following local news at that time, I'm sure you were aware of what
happened. Then on January eighth of this year, the FBI and the Virginia
State Police announced the first significant case break, and I would say it's thirty
seven year history, correct, And they did name Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior,
sixty three, of Lancaster County, Virginia, and said that he had
been connected via DNA to the murders of Robin Edwards, David Noveling, and
then a name that we had not heard before, Teresa Howell. And we
will get to Teresa in just a couple of minutes. So Teresa marked the
first time that a single homicide victim was definitively connected to the Colonial Parkway murder
series. Phil Joyce, what would you guys like to talk about with regard
to the January eighth presser? What was that day like for you? All?
Shocking? Shocking? Yes? Absolutely, yes, you know, it
was to me so real because when this happened to our family, when it
happened to Keith, it was just like, and I think I can speak
for most of my family, everything was normal as normal could be in our
family. And then just one day the phone rang and they said we found
Keith's carr And then when we got this call on January to eighth, or
a couple of days before, and it was just We've always been hoping for
it, but I was just a shocked. Although I've always had a feeling
in my heart that when we do find out what happened that it's just going
to be it's going to be like that I won't be expecting it. So
it was a lot of emotion, a lot of emotion. It was also
very frustrating because those of you that listened to the podcast, and I'll reiterate
this, I was really thrilled to find out that we had answers for the
Edwards Nobbling and Howell a new name to us families, because it's fairly easy,
I think, for all of us to put ourselves in the place of
any of the Colonial Parkway murders families or any family that's lost a loved one,
because we've been through it and this is what they call it, the
club that no one wants to be asked to join. But I was very
frustrated at the same time because full disclosure, Kristin and I knew this was
coming. We knew in October we had heard from media sources that there'd been
a significant development in the Colonial Parkway murders. Now I'm not going to out
those media people, but they reached out to us and said there's going to
be a significant announcement in the Colonial Parkway murders. So in October, Christin
Dilliy and Bill Thomas knew Alan Wade Wilmer's name, we knew the names of
his brothers, We knew where he was from. We actually had a fair
amount of information that was then presented to the public on January eighth. But
I was very frustrated and still am that the FBI and the Virginia State Police
didn't answer questions from the reporters that were there in a very straightforward manner.
So it's frustrating and even maddening to know the facts of a case. And
although it's good news, no one's dancing a happy dance here. But when
you've been looking for answers for over thirty years to find out who killed your
loved one, your signing, your daughter, your brother, your sister,
that's a significant moment. But at the same time, when you know the
details of the case and you hear questions and I knew the answers to those
questions, and the Virginia State Police spokeswoman, and I'm not blaming her personally,
she literally refused to answer the question, which was asked twice, When
did Alan Wade Wilmer Sr. First move on to your radar. I don't
think that's an unfair question. I really don't. And it was asked twice,
and they refuse to answer the question twice. And as the brother of
a murder victim, I think that's outrageous, and I still think it's outrageous
three months later, and I'm still mad about it. Is you can probably
tell? Is it time? For Bill to go on one of his ranswers.
I think that was one. I want to make sure. I have
a feeling there's going to be more thought. But what I'll see, we'll
see. The one thing that we did learn that was new information to both
of us and probably Joyce. I imagine this was new to you as well.
Correct the identification of Teresa's Howell, who disappeared from outside the Zodiac Club
in Hampton on July first, nineteen eighty nine. Teresa was identified after a
missing person's report was filed on her behalf only fourth, nineteen eighty nine.
We had no knowledge of Teresa's case at the point we learned it right along
with everyone else. That was particularly interesting information. We have been in touch
with Teresa's family and we were eager to learn more about her and share more
about her with all of you. Joyce, is there anything you want to
say? I know your family was briefed two days before the press conference privately,
so the Colin Haley families were briefed privately beforehand. Is there anything you
can or are willing to say about that private briefing? I was thinking of
the actual face to face when we went in. One thing I will say
is that they suggested fairly strongly that Alan Wade Wilma Alan Wade Wilmer was one
of the first suspects our brother's case. We had heard my father talk about
it. We were all young back then, so I remember even hearing my
father talk about it. They didn't have a name, He didn't have a
name, but they were talking about the watermen. And then to find out
that they had this guy from the very beginning was pretty overwhelming, And in
the meantime, a lot of my parents have died they didn't get to find
out. So he's still not linked by DNA yet, but we're working on
it. They so strongly suggested that he is connected, and I think one
of the things that's troubling about the January eighth press conference, which is two
days after they met with the Colin Haley families. So after telling the families
we believe this man is responsible for the disappearance and likely homicide of Keith Collin
Cassandra Haley, they won't say it publicly, and it's three months later and
they still haven't said it. For those of you that follow the news locally.
After Blaine Pardo, who wrote the book on the Colonial Parkway borders a
special kind of evil. Myself and other local media people called them out on
it. They did quietly admit that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior was suspect number one
in Keith Collin Cassandra Haley's murder. But why does it take the families and
media people calling out the FBI and the Virginia State Police to get them to
say something which is factually correct he was the leading suspect. Now they haven't
said definitively to Joyce and her family that they know for a fact that it's
him. He was questioned, he was interrogated on more than one occasion.
He was given we believe it may have been two polygraph examinations, and he
passed one and the other one was the neutral. Neither we can't tell if
he's telling the truth or not telling the truth result and ultimately they let him
go. And it's really frustrating to know this story. I heard this story
in nineteen eighty eight. At the time that it happened, his name was
never attached to it. But we were told by the FBI that they had
questioned this man, and they had given him a polygraph, and they let
him go. It's only a few months ago until we find out what his
name is, and the fact that he died in twenty seventeen. No one's
making this story up. My father told me this story in nineteen eighty eight
because he was in touch on probably a weekly basis back then with the FBI
agents who were in charge of the case. I think it's also a good
point to mention it is a as a direct result of the fact that he
was polygraphed and let go. Teresa Howell died a year later. Let's not
gloss that over. They let him go and as a result, she died.
I think it's really important that the FBI get transparent about this. As
a result of their negligence, someone died. When you get the sense that
they're not happy with me in particular, let's be frank here. As I
said in a television interview with one of the stations earlier today, this can't
be about reputation management. We understand it's been thirty seven years since the start
of the Colonial Parkery murders. We get the fact that we didn't get here
without problems and mistakes. But mistakes happen. The focus has to remain on
solving these cases, not about preserving the reputation of the FBI and the Virginia
State Police. I think, as a citizen, I live in Connecticut,
I don't live here in Virginia. I think it's outrageous. You can't be
more concerned with how your agency looks than you can about being honest with people.
And I'm talking about the citizens of Virginia, not necessarily just the family
who are talking to you this evening. Solving a case needs to be the
principal focus of an investigation, not covering up your mistakes. Now, this
is where the teacher in me is going to say, please refer to your
handouts. It's the number of you pick up that postcard. Bill, let
me have that postcard please, if you would. We have a whole bunch
of tas. We have a ton of them on that table over there.
This was created by Bill's partner, Pamela Arnwass. I want to give Pamela
mad props for doing this. This is amazing. And on the back we
have all of the information that you see right here on the screen about Alan
Wade Wilmer Senior. We also, on the other side have lots of information
about the truck that he was driving, the boat that he regularly used for
his work as a waterman, and then we have a series of photographs of
Wilmer throughout the years. We encourage you if you have any information whatsoever about
Alan Wade Wilmer Senior, the people that he worked with, the places he
hung out, or any other information, please take that to the FBI.
Let me give you an example. I got to Joyce and her husband Steve's
house in Glosster on Saturday night and they had some friends over and they introduced
me to a guy, David. His name is and he is a tugboat
captain. Really super nice guy. I'd never met him before, but he
knew why I was here working with Joyce and Kristen on the podcast. He
stuck out his hand and he said hello, and if we get to talking,
he knew Alan Wade Wilmer. This guy who, by the way,
totally looks like the tugboat captain that he is, big, burly guy with
a beard. He started out as a waterman and he used to dock his
boat at the same marina that Wilmer docked his boat, and he actually had
some insight. We're not investigators and we're not experts. Our goal then is
to get David and anyone and also has any information about Alan Wade Wilmer.
Senior. Law enforcement has a significant challenge. Now they're needing to rebuild this
guy's life and build out a timeline thirty something years later and he's been dead
since twenty seventeen. This is going to be a significant challenge. But if
people like David remember, even though it might be only one or two things,
it might place Wilmer at a particular place and time. In other words,
he used to dock at this marina. This was back in and this
guy remembered a lot. That's the kind of guy that we want to not
just have him tell his old friends or someone that he just met for the
first time, but ultimately connect with Virginia State Police or FBI and give them
that information. It could be very helpful to moving this investigation forward. You're
listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back after this word from our
sponsors. We're back here at mindover Murder. No tip is too small.
Anything that you may know, you don't know what significant. The FBI may
find something very significant that you think is maybe just a little detail. So
please, no matter what you know, no matter how small it is,
please send that information into the FBI. The email and tip lines are right
up there. They're also on this informational postcard. We printed up four thousand
postcards for tonight's meeting. We really want you to take a stack of these
postcards because someone you know probably gonna be an old timer like my age,
or maybe even older, if there is such a thing, They may know
something and we really need the public's help here. Feel free to take a
bunch of postcards. So we had alluded to the fact already, the one
of the things that was unset at the presser is the fact that Wilmer was
suspect number one in the disappearance of Keith call and Casey Andrew Haley. What
we have not mentioned yet but would like to get into is the fact that
he did have a known history of harassing couples on the Colonial Parkway. We
have had people reach out to us with chips again and again alluding to this
very startling history of harassment. Do you want to go into that a little
bit? And then, yeah, First of all, we've had some fantastic
conversations with a number of people, and then of course there's all my new
friends from Lancaster County, Virginia, which is new to me. We've learned
a lot in the last three months. One of the things we've learned,
though, is very disturbing. A number of people have come forward, and
of course we are urging these people to talk to law enforcement, because talking
to Kristen and Bill or Joyce is great, but ultimately you need to put
this information in the hands of the investigators. A number of people have come
forward and said they were harassed by a guy who matches Wilmer's description. Remember,
this guy's five foot five five inches tall. He is definitely short than
the average. He's a big guy. He's pretty buff actually, but he's
very distinctive. And we have very good photographs thanks to the Virginia State Police
and the FBI with age progression, that show what he looked like over the
course of his life. What some of these people are telling us is particularly
Two news stories came forward to me. People that were parking down near the
Yorktown the Victory Monument Victory Monument. They were harassed by a guy who came
up very aggressively. He behaved like a cop, but he was dressed like
a mechanic, like in a jumpsuit. Banged on the window, demanded that
they roll the window down, demanded driver's licenses. Interestingly, not registrations,
which are those of us that have been pulled over like me. No,
they asked for your license and your registration. For some reason, he would
only ask for driver's licenses. But remember now we're talking about young people.
That's when I was getting stopped by the cops too. He demanded driver's licenses,
and he actually he had managed to get the driver's licenses in most of
these examples. And then he goes back to his truck and guess what,
he's driving, the same truck that he is in this picture, this very
distinctive blue green truck, which is how he originally got onto FBI's radar.
He terrified these couples. Now these couples live to tell the tale because here
they are talking to us and law enforcement all these years later. What's very
disturbing to me is, I believe there's a very distinct pattern here. I've
heard about it from the investigators over the years, that this guy was out
there doing this any number of times it doesn't mean it always resulted in a
double homicide. What's disturbing is if he has this known history of harassing couples
on the Colonial Parkway, it's a shame they were never able to put that
together. That was the same guy who was ultimately responsible for the murders.
What do we still want to know about Wilmer? A lot? So much.
We really want to know how did he these victims? What sort of
emotional need was he fulfilling with his victim choices? How did he ultimately approach
his victims? Was it on foot? Was it in the distinctive truck?
Was it on his boat? Was he sailing up to people for example,
or docking outside of Ragged Island and waiting ann We want to know what locations
Wilmer was frequenting when he was visiting this area. And again, that is
something that those of you who knew him can help us with. For those
who did know him, did he exhibit behavior that alarmed his friends and family?
Question that probably we will never get an answer to from VSPRFBI. We
can dream why was Wilmar allowed to go free even after passing that polygraph?
If he was a prime suspect in the disappearance of Keith Collin Cassandra Haling.
I think there's a typo in that question. I think that originally read why
the hell was Wilmar allowed to go free? We would really like to know.
I could be wrong. I'm sorry, you're right, although the language
might have been stronger than that originally. That's Joyce. Actually, Joyce has
a very edgy side, always the quiet ones. It totally is. Seriously,
we are very concerned about whether or not there might be cases out of
state that he might be connected to. Several of our listeners have brought to
our attention the case of Imber Lungren in North Carolina and the suspect sketches and
the truck that the suspect in that case was driving looks very similar to Alan
Wade Wilmer Senior. Was he moving out of state to do this? And
what other local cold cases might he be potentially connected to? And we want
to talk about that in just one second, Joyce, anything you want to
add questions that you have no bill, how about you? I think that
last question, I think there are a number of other cold cases. I
don't think that Alan Wade Wilmer who was officially a serial killer by FBI definition.
He killed three people that we know of in two separate incidents, and
that makes him officially a serial killer. I think he's responsible for a number
of other unsolved rapes and murders if law enforcement does its job, and I
underline if I think that he will be linked to a number of other unsolved
cases. The two that I think the law enforcement officials in this area really
need to be closely looked at, and we have said this before on the
podcast a number of times. I think they really need to be looking at
the case of Brian Pettinger, aged twenty five, and Laurie and Powell,
age eighteen. The reason that I say this is because both of those murders
were bookended around the Edwards noveling murders in nineteen eighty seven, which we know
he's good for, and the Call Haley disappearance in nineteen eighty eight, which
he circumstantially is connected to. The particulars of Brian and Laurie's cases are something
that we have outlined before on the podcast, and so we will put links
to those episodes on our show notes for our episode when this goes live and
We will also release those as bonus episodes so you can catch up. But
I think that if you were looking at cold case murders from the mid eighties,
the first place that you need to start is Brian Pettinger and Lauri and
Pella. And we would ask anyone who knew Brian or Laurie, if you
have information that you think may be helpful, please reach out to the FBI
or the VSP or any other law enforcement agency that you think may be helpful.
You could spend an entire podcast which we have talking about the possible connection
of Liberty Security, this oddball security company that seems to be connected to a
number of unsolved murders. Brian Pettinger and Laurie and Powell both worked for Liberty
Securities. It's still a real head scratcher. Could there be a connection to
Liberty Security? And that does take us directly into the next thing. There
are people who have asked us, Okay, so is this all Wilmer or
are there other potential suspects in this case? And we do think that the
late Ron Little of New Zealand is still a suspect who deserves some attention,
largely because, as Bill was just saying of his connection to Liberty Security also
called advanced security. He has known connections to Brian Pettinger, Lauren Powell,
Robin Edwards, Keith and Sandy so I think it is very important that law
enforcement continues to look at that connection. In addition to his criminal history here,
he also has a significant criminal record in New Zealand. I know you're
doing some work with the folks at New Zealand on that, correct, Yeah,
the television producers from New Zealand are coming to meet with me this Saturday
and Sunday to talk to me because they were interested in exploring Ron Little's connection
to the Colonial Parkway murders, Powell, Pettinger and then a series of unsolved
murders in New Zealand. And by the way, I know it was the
eighties, but tell me you like that photograph that is they're just it just
says I'm creepy, aren't I? And it's not just the hair, it's
the glasses. He's got those, the Jeffrey Dahmer glass. There's also a
video clip of Andy Fox from w A. B Y interviewing him and he's
got this cropped pink pink Michael like Michael Jackson style leather jacket, and you're
like, dude, I know it was the eighties. I was there,
but come on, do you and ho hold I wasn't the eighties? Sure,
go ahead and tell us Kristen dilly oh, I would say single digits.
Maybe at least you were born. I was worried you were going to
say I wasn't even born then, e one eighties baby right here, Joeyce.
How soon into the investigation was your family aware that Ron Little was that
his name had come up, or that liberty security had become an issue of
concern. It's been so long ago, I don't remember any exact times,
but I know it was fairly soon. His name has been linked ever since
I can remember. Really, Hilman others, I think he's worth a look,
And I would argue too, given what has recently come out about Wilmer
in the polygraph, I would say that anyone who has previously been cleared by
a polygraph, let's give them a second look as well, just in case.
One of the questions that we've been asking ourselves recently, and I'm going
to let Bill do most of the speaking on this, I think is should
we even still be using the term Colonial Parkway murders, because one thing that
we have noticed is that law enforcement is making a notable effort to divorce the
Edward Nobbling cases from the rest of the Colonial Parkway Murders series. They are
now referring to them as the Isle of Wight murders, and we have never
heard them called that. I've been involved in this case for thirty seven years.
No one ever called Awards noveling the Isle of White Murders. This is
like they just made this up. So that has led us to wonder what
is it that they are trying to accomplish by divorcing that case from the rest
of it. And so we have had to ask ourselves, do we need
to still be using the term Colonial Parkway murders or should we be calling it
something else? Should we be dividing it up into specific individual cases. Should
we be going with Isle of White Murders? Bill? What are your thoughts
on do we use this name? Do we continue to use this name,
which is a media construct, by the way, not a law enforcement construct.
Yeah, My recollection having lived this is that they obviously weren't called the
Colonial Parkway Murders from the beginning, local television and newspapers and news radio started
referring to this case as the Colonial Parkway murders. It is confusing, and
I've said on Mind Over Murder that sometimes I think that the name the Colonial
Parkway Murders maybe the biggest rabbit hole of all, because we talk about all
the different complicated rabbit holes you can go down. In this case, I
think it would be very confusing to start referring to this case by some other
name. Our friend Keith has said he wonders if the whole thing should be
called the rout seventeen murders. I think on some level that ship has sailed.
I do agree that the name is a little confusing, because even the
four double homicides, only two happened on the Colonial Parkway. Two clearly did
not happen on the Colonial Parkway, one at Ragged Island and one up on
Interstate sixty four, probably starting at the rest area. I know it's a
little bit of a confusing name, but it seems odd at this point,
thirty seven years later, to erase the whiteboard and start over again. I
do push back on the idea that at the January eighth Press conference, all
of a sudden, we're calling the murder of Robin Edwards and David Nobling the
Isle of White murders. Like it or not, it's part of this series.
And by the way, now it appears more and more every day with
Wilmer's identification that this is a series of murders and Wilmer is responsible for at
least some of them. He could be responsible for all of them. I
just think it is more to our advantage as families have to keep the name
Colonial Parkway because that's what everybody knows it as how many of you in this
room, we're already familiar with the Colonial Parkway murders case long before you heard
our podcast. Yeah. Absolutely, Okay, So we would like to put
forth some action steps that we'd like to see law enforcement take. We're not
pushy, and they have to do this, and we know they love this
when we start telling them what to do. Yes, they don't like the
fact that they think we are telling them how to do their job. We're
not, As we have said a number of times, we are not investigators.
I am an overworked, underpaid educator. Can't we have them focus their
ire on you for a while? Sure, absolutely, we can make that
happen. Okay, I think that. Okay, that is exactly what I
mean. Just in case when you're telling friends about this and they should why
they should come. On May thirteenth, make a point of saying Kristin Dilly
made a number of really good points about what she would like to see that
law enforcement do next. Absolutely, you should get me in as much trouble
as possible because you why not taken the brunt of it from the FBI.
Either that or we can blame Joyce. Oh, nobody would believe that she's
too nice. She's too nice. We love Joyce. So we have four
action steps that we'd like to see law enforcement take now, and again we
are not telling them how to do their job, but we are recommending strongly
that these are things we think you ought to do. I think we're going
to change the slide from May thirteenth. This is going to say Kristin Dilly's
recommended action steps, go ahead, tell us I love working with this guy.
I do. We do think that they should take a second look at
those area cold cases from the eighties, in particular Lori and Pellambryan Pettinger.
As we've said there's also Donna Cannady and in Chesapeake and blenn Ann Ashburn down
on the North Carolina line over Kuratak, any number of different cases that we
want them to take a look at. So we are recommending, not ordering,
that they take a second look at some area cold cases. We would
ask that they test or retest all of the remaining evidence in this case with
the best DNA labs, especially the ones that specialize in small samples and integrated
DNA, because the DNA in this case is not in the best shape unfortunately.
The big sticking point for us, and I'll let you talk about that
or fulminate about that in a second bill is number three, submit Alan Wade
Wilmer Senior's DNA into the CODIS system. Thank here he needs to be ruled
in or ruled out in other local cases, and the only way to do
that is to get him uploaded to CODIS. And I know you can explain
in just a couple of minutes why he's not in COTIS, but I like
that round of applus so let me floating on that for one. Actually go
ahead and explain it, okay, according to the rules, and we're told
it's actually not a law, but a policy. The Commonwealth of Virginia's policy
is that if you've never been convicted of a felony, and Wilmer had not
ever been convicted of a felony, your DNA cannot be loaded into COTIS.
Now. I'm just the brother of a murder victim here, but I find
it baffling that a man who is being identified by the FBI as a confirmed
serial killer, he's been dead since twenty seventeen. I can't believe we can't
find a way put Alan Wade Wilmer Senior's DNA into the CODAS system. We
have a number of people that are pulling for us, shall we say,
Some of them are retired law enforcement. Many of them have worked this case
in the past. More than one of them has said to me, Bill,
they don't want to put Alan Wade Wilmer Senior's DNA into the CODAS system
because it will light up like an f and Christmas tree, because he is
likely going to be linked to so many other unsolved murders, and he could
even be linked to some allegedly solved murders. There could be people who are
currently incarcerated for cases that they were convicted on and Wilmer could be actually the
responsible killer or rapist. So I'm having a real hard time finding an excuse,
which is what this really is, as to why we can't find a
way to put Wilmer's DNA into CODIS. I don't think violating a dead man's
rights is really a problem, And I am the last person on the planet
that would ever want to see an innocent person go to jail. Alan Wade
Wilmer, Senior is not that guy, and I call on the FBI and
the Commonwealth of Virginia to work together to find a way to put Wilmer's DNA
into CODIS so that we can find out exactly how many cases he should be
properly linked to. I agreed, because, as you said, Bill,
the question really does come down to this, why do the civil rights of
a serial killer trump the rights of the family members of a murder victim to
find answers. The other thing that we would like them to do is to
look for single and double homicide cold cases in surrounding states, not just Virginia,
North Carolina and Maryland, for example, places that are easily accessible by
boat. So the law enforcement agencies that are no doubt listening to this podcast.
These are just recommendations. We are not asking you to do your job,
but we are actually Oh and I know we've said this on the podcast,
and this episode will air next Monday, a week from tonight, so
it's April fifteenth. It'll actually go out worldwide. We've forgotten our manners.
I think we want to thank the FBI and Virginia State Police analysts who listen
to our podcast every week and wish them all the best and thank them for
taking the time to listen to the podcast. Keep working it and keep smiling.
We have lots of faith in you. You said you work and antagonize
the FBI. I didn't have an eye. This is the dialed down version.
Before we move to our question and answer session, we do want to
talk about why we keep telling the FBI to do their jobs, and that's
not really what this is. Honestly, we're joking a lot about this.
The reason that we do this the family members of the victims and me,
who is a I hope you guys think I'm a friend. You think I'm
a friend? Right? Good friend? Oh? Good, okay, someone
who is a friend to these families. The reason why we do. Advocacy
is because while we truly appreciate law enforcement for the great strides that they make
in this case and I'm not joking, I'm not tweaking it that I really
truly do mean we are appreciative of that because without their efforts St. Edwards
and the novelin and how families wouldn't have answers. There are still families without
answers, and there are potentially more families out there who have been victimized by
Wilmer and other suspects who may come up in this case, and so all
of those families deserve answers as well. Advocacy the kind that we're doing allows
families to take action, and it allows them to take action in a situation
that I know you both can speak to, this can leave them feeling powerless,
helpless, and confused. Advocacy allows us to do something, and so
that is why we are up here tweaking the FBI and the VSP. It
allows us to do something. I just want to speak to that well.
I think it's very important because Joyce would won't admit this, but the Call
family in particular, and there's a number of members of the Call family in
this room tonight have been unbelievable advocates for well over thirty years. That f
Fact of Life headline refers to an organization that they established to help the families
in the Colonial Parkway murders and other unsolved murders here in Virginia years ago.
They lobbied for new life legislation. They fought for increased budgets, worked tirelessly
to see this case in the early going get the kind of coverage and publicity
that it needed because the calls and the other families knew that you needed people
to be talking about your case and cold cases. As the months go by
and new things happen every single day, some good, some bad, but
people start to forget. I have to acknowledge their incredible work. Yeah,
let's have am out of a plus for the call family. Do you want
to speak to them or did we embarrass you too much? Embarrass me?
But I will say that my dad and my aunts and a lot of people
when this happened back in the eighties, like the Noblings and a lot of
them had got together. Because I was very young then and my brothers were
young, they didn't know what else to do. There was nothing to do.
So they kept it going that way, and they would have meetings every
week and they would have speakers, and they would write letters, and there
wasn't cell phones or anything back then. They spent a lot of time doing
all that and it was hard on my family and all the other family members.
And I remember watching it when my father died. He died very young.
He died in nineteen ninety six. Some years went by, nobody was
doing anything. I can just remember sometime laying in the bed at night saying,
I don't know what to do. What am I going to do?
Because I didn't I was never brought up in law enforcement. We were just
thrown into this. It just happened. I had no experience in this.
And that's when I was like Facebook was just starting to come out, and
I'm like, I can start putting it on there. That's when we started
drumming up a lot of support again, and that's how I met Bill.
It's just what do you do. I don't know what to do. Just
reach out. The Cole family does run whatever happened, Richard Keith Collin,
Cassandra Haley on Facebook, We do encourage you to join that if you have
not done so already. They also run the Colonial Parkway Victims Gone but Not
Forgotten page, and then Phil and I of course run Colonial Parkway Murders and
the Mind of a Murder podcast pages. So a lot of times, as
Joyce was just saying, advocacy through social media is the best alternative that we
have because we can't go out there and beat the bushes and search and do
various other things. This is what we can do, this is what we
have, So this is why we advocate. Let me add something here.
I believe actually that the Call family who started the whatever Happened page, I
actually believe you may be, to my knowledge, you are the first family
group to use social media to solve an unsolved murder. You'll notice even the
page doesn't even mention the word murder. My sense of it was that Facebook
was even a little uncomfortable they use social media before anybody else. I actually
think they may be the first families in the country to do this, and
that is incredibly important and innovative and leads us to where we are today,
which is getting closer to answers. Now Joyce is thoroughly embarrassed. Yeah,
sorry about that, Joyce. So We do have one other piece of advocacy
work that we do, and that is going to crime con. Crime Con
is incredibly, incredibly influential in making sure that the families of murder victims have
the voice that they so desperately need. And we want to thank Kevin Balf,
Kelly Maclear, and the folks at crime Con for helping us keep this
case in the spotlight because we've made appearances with Joyce in twenty eighteen, twenty
nineteen, twenty twenty one, twenty two, twenty three, and we will
be at crime Con Nashville in just a couple of short weeks for our what
is it fifth or sixth crime constertalstract A lot of them, there's been a
lot of them. But another way that we can advocate is going to crime
Con and making sure that our story is known and that the families have a
voice. So we do ask if anybody is going to crime Con in Nationville,
please do join us. We are once to get on creators wherever you
can pick up all of that lovely, lovely postcard and signogen sticker action.
All right, I think we're getting down to the Q and A portion,
but we do want to mention. One thing that always seems to come up,
and that is this concept of closure. People use the term closure and
it is You've said it before, Bill, and I agree with you.
It is kindly meant. It truly is. But I think it's important for
everyone to understand that there is no such thing as closure for families who have
lost someone to violent crime. There can be answers, and a lot of
times those answers are incomplete or unsatisfactory. Knowing who committed a crime does not
mean that you understand why it happened to that loved one. And sometimes,
if you're lucky, there is justice, but even that I'm sure is cold
comfort. So the Edwards, the Nobling, and the Howe families, and
hopefully very soon the Calls and the Haleys will have answers, but they do
not have closure. And because Wilmer has died, there is no way to
see justice done in this case. We do ask that you reframe the word
closure, because it really is not possible for someone who has lost a loved
one to have closure, And just as a way to close this portion,
I want to keep in mind where these victims should be today as of twenty
twenty four. Had they lived, Robin Edwards would be fifty one years old.
Anna Maria Phelps would be fifty three, Sander Haley would be fifty four,
Laurie and Powell would be fifty four, Keith Call would be fifty six,
Daniel Lower would be fifty six, David Nobling would be fifty seven,
Becky Dalski would be fifty nine, Brian Pettinger would be sixty one, Terry
Hall sixty four, and Kathy Thomas would be sixty five years old. These
victims deserve to live, and now they deserve the only kind of justice that
we can get for them, and that is to know the name of their
killer. So we implore the FBI and the VSP please do everything that you
can to find answers for these families. So maybe some of the folks that
are here tonight, if they have social media, they can do that and
maybe there might could lead to smart tips. We would love that. We
would love that, Thank you very much. Yeah, absolutely, please do
feel free to take those, share those, post them everywhere. Our goal
is to get as much information out about the case and about Wilmer. I
think we're going to wrap it up that is going to do it for this
episode of Mind Over Murder live at the Yorktown Library. Thank you so much
for joining us. We'll see you next time. Please take postcards, That's
why we printed them, and thank you. Thank you all, and thank
you to Beth and the library staff. They did an incredible job. Thank
you very much. Gods so much. Join us next time on mind over
Murder as we continue our live mindover Murder podcast event from Yorktown, Virginia.
We'll be taking questions from the audience in a no holds barred discussion of questions
and concerns regarding the Colonial Parkway murders. We look forward to seeing you next
time on mind over Murder. Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero
and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilly.
Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod.
Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. You can
follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow our
page on the Colonial Parkway murders on Facebook, and finally, you can follow
Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five. Six Thank you for listening to
Mind Over Murder.