Hello, and welcome back to Desks and Dorks, your favorite game design podcast.
I don't know if it's ever once been brought by you, but maybe
this time will be the first time. I am the best DM Graham games.
I use heat and they pronouns, and I am joined by I'm Kyle
Lott and apparently I'm on the back of a milk carton. Yeah. Yeah,
you know, if you've been tuning in weekly to Desks and Dorks,
I believe Kyle transmitted last last episode from the bottom of a deep hole maybe
a well and I've been looking for him. I've been concerned about Kyle's well
being. So for those of you who are not watching this, I went
to my front store in Michigan to do a celebrity appearance, which is how
they advertised it, and I sent a picture of myself lying next to the
signs and Graham just goes, it looks like you're on a missing person's poster.
Actually, what I said was, it looks like you're you're lying in
front of your own gravestones, which is honestly just kind of incredible. So
when you're watching this on YouTube, I would encourage you, even if you
don't watch other stuff on YouTube. To go to YouTube. Just for the
first thirty seconds you can see Graham's master photoshop ability has put me onto a
milk carton. Yeah, I think. I think the real of the real
key is making sure that we've gotten you out of the well and that you
are back where you need to be, and then we get you know,
last he can run over and save me. How how was your trip?
The trip was awesome. I think one of the best things about it was
a I finally get to see my friend's store and his store is massive,
Like, the store is huge. It is like a mecca of gaming and
it's really great. I joke that I also and can walk into a game
store and I can tell if it's good if I go to the bathroom and
there's feminine hygiene products for free in the bathroom of a game store. That's
that metric has never failed me before. And I came in and it was
like a rack for like free pads and free tamp I'm like, yes,
I mean, I don't really want to call you out, but how many
women's bathrooms do you walk into? The gender neutral bathrooms? So most teams
tours will have like the mix the mixed gender general neutral bathroom, and then
they'll have that rack of the feminine hygiene products. I mean, I liked
the what you were doing. It started good, Like I always this is
my barama. I'm like, yeah, you're right, that is the gather
this information. You know, you really well because most teams played yourself.
Most games, for as I've been too, don't have like male female bathrooms
anymore or like right, you know what I mean, I haven't been anyone
that has that, and I don't have a good brick and mortar where I
am anymore. So it's it's a big shame part of the community that I'm
starting to build. I have this new day job, which is essentially mythology
LARPing with kids who have may possibly told me they have googled me and are
now listening to the episodes. Oh yeah, um, you know I'm gonna
you know, watch my language. I'm not even gonna say fuck um because
I know the kids are listening except for that one time obviously are you talking
about me? M But no, in all seriousness, the store was great.
So my friend Ben James, who runs the store, owns the store.
This has been a dream of his for like ninon eight years, um,
And so to sort of watch it come to fruition and to be there
for events and to be part of his like in store community was super cool.
I got to meet his employees and play games with them. I got
to draft Magic with like his locals. Like it was just it was a
really cool time. We had a signing. The signing went very well as
well. We were in play tests for one of the two kickstarters that's coming
up this year through Desks and dorcs. That playtests went gangbusters. U.
The people there were like, Okay, I know we work for Ben,
and I'm sure Ben could get this from set discount, but like, if
you had this today, we would have bought it, which was wonderful to
hear. Um. And I was paid the ultimate compliment, So the ultimate
sacrifice, the ultimate sacrifice. As why I'm in well, um no,
they're they're the three uh these three kids that were there on Friday for the
Magic event that they did, and they were talking to me that all kinds
of questions, which was adorable because they were like, oh my god,
you make games, How do you make games? When did you make games?
Where do you publish your games? Is it hard to make games?
And it was. It was great, right, But as somebody who grew
up, you know, going to their local game store and like scrounging together
like their their pennies basically to buy games. At the end of the night,
the three kids would run off and they were whispering about something, and
I was like, what are they doing. It turns out the three of
them all had gift cards that they had won or that their parents had gotten
them, and they didn't have enough money individually to buy a copy of After
the Rain. They pulled their gift cards together to buy a copy that the
three of them could share. And as somebody who has done that exact activity
with his friends, were like, Okay, we don't have enough money to
buy this game. How much do you have? How much do you have?
And like that's probably all their game money for the next three months,
and for them to spend that on me is the ultimate compliment I think that
I could ever be given as a game designer. And it's a full circle
moment for me as well, having grown up and bend that kid and being
like wow, holy crap like that, Like I'm like what an honor?
Like like again, any nomination is great. But I was like, when
when you get those three kids who like live at that game store and that's
their life and they cared enough about what you did and what you interested them
in to do what they did, it was it was a huge compliment.
So that was a highlight of that. They pulled all their money together to
get your game. Yes, yeah, they're gonna be so disappointed. Yeah,
probably. Uh did you tell them? Did you tell the children that
you were Emmy nominated? Both of us are up for any award and at
gen Con, I not DevCon as my kids at Camp Chu, but or
keep trying to tell me. They keep trying to call it DevCon. Yeah,
actually, uh no, I uh, I don't know. If I
talked to them about the Any nomination. Um, we talked a lot about
magic. They talked a lot about Fortnite memes, which is I mean,
they're like ten that makes sense, um, And I definitely when they I
was like, guys, like, just give me your email on them.
I hooked them up with some more PDFs of some other desks and Dirk stuff
that they did not ask for. But I was like, I was like,
I don't know. It was so touch. I probably shouldn't be giving
away my games for free, but I don't know it was worth it.
Yeah, I mean, you know their parents are gonna see that they're getting
emails from a strange man in his thirties, and your career is gonna take
off. No, you know, no such thing as bad press. You
know it's gonna it's gonna be great. You know. Hey, I'm gonna
well though, so what are they gonna do? They can't find me,
not anymore, I can hear you. That's true. I'm out. I
am out of the well now officially, but you have Wi Fi down there.
Make sure you get desks and dorks dot org in your local well.
Start it's it's going well, it sure is, it sure is, buddy,
h do you want to enjoy the episode and television? That what we're
working with today? So uh, As I was brainstorming new things to talk
about in terms of the sign, it occurs to me as a writer how
much import I place on openings and endings. You need to capture your audience,
and oftentimes in games you are doing the double feature of both teaching and
also grabbing the emotional hook. I mean, that's really really important and so
I started to think about what we're formative experience for me, What are my
favorite opening dungeons, what are my favorite intros and games? And made a
nice list so that we could talk about them in terms of why these are
so important to us and how it informs the games that we want to make.
Yeah, and I picked So there are some board games as I was
reflecting on this list that had really great introductory moments for introductory levels. So
for example, if a board game says, hey tried this first scenario and
the first scenario is really strong, really arresting, really grabbing, I think
that's super cool. So I picked a couple of board games, and I
did pick a couple of video game game, so we got a little got
a little mixed media going on. So yeah, I certainly in terms of
mixed media, I think about a TV and movies UM that have been influential
on storytelling and my storytelling style. UM. And I really tried to think
about board games that had I thought good kind of on ramp stuff, but
I really couldn't think of any. But that's because I'm so particular about what
I think works in terms of demo and in teaching from the few different board
game cafes that I was running. Um, you know, I tried.
I tried and tried to think of anything, but I really I nothing really
stuck out to me in terms of stuff. So I'm really curious to think
of to hear what board games that you you think do stick the landing on
that? All right, Yeah, I'm gonna go first. Yeah, I'll
go first. We'll start with one of my board games. This is sort
of a guinea at least for me. Um. I love your classic swords
and story stuff. Obviously, Gramma is so that you and I have bonded
over a lot as our love of shared sword and sorcery, and it was
a genre that as a kid I was really unfamiliar with and was introduced too
through a phenomenal board game. Those of you who have been longtime fans of
the show will know I love hero Quest as a kid. The introduction to
hero Quest, that first introductory mission is it's nothing to write home about in
terms of like its narrative interest. Right, It is either classic, you
are in a dungeon, you are fighting, there's an evil wizard. It
literally feels like all of the same tropes that have been done to death a
bajillion times over, but something that I love and something I think I need
a little bit more of now in media, having been a sort of outsynical
in the last thing is it does it with so much earnest fervor and so
much appreciation for the tropes that it's using that as a little kid, I
remember thinking, oh my god, this is the coolest thing in the world.
And then a friend of mine was very generous actually gifted me his original
hero Quest set, and so I played it with some of my friends who
had never touched it before, and we played the introduction set, the introduction
scenario, and it had the same level of gravitas that I wanted. And
I think for me as a designer, one of the things that I always
take from that first initial level that I find really interesting is that you don't
always have to do something new or fresh or exciting, or it doesn't have
to always be different just for difference's sake. You can impress people if the
quality of what you're doing is excellent, and it truly is, and I
think if you have a certain level of earnest appreciation for what you're doing,
there is not an ounce of cynicism in that opening. There is not an
ounce of like nudge nudge, wink wink. It is fantasy tropes for the
sake of fantasy tropes. And I think it instead of like maybe like playing
it safe and doing like, oh, these are fantasy tropes, were like
riffing on them, It's like no, they just go hog wild with it.
And I think that's what makes it such a great opening level for me.
And it worked too, I think as well. If you know your
audience for your introduction, and this is the thing with Her Request, right,
this was designed to introduce eight to ten year olds to the world of
high fantasy, so you don't want to overload them with too much stuff and
nuanced, it's okay to just kind of be the base boom fantasy stuff.
And again, having replayed it literally, like I think last year, I
replayed the first level of Hero Request in its original form as intended, and
it was still as impactful, still as grabbing, and I think ultimately still
as entertaining as I wanted it to be. So that's that's one of my
picks for some of the best introductions in a board game. I really liked
Your Request. Your Request is a beloved kind of connective game between your you
know, burgeon indie scene and what these you know, high fantasy tropes are
you talking about. It's from nineteen eighty nine, I want to say.
And so this cyticism about their own tropes, they predates a lot of that.
There wasn't any winking, there was any nudgeon. I mean, that
was the era of we will sequester into the basement and we will play this
game. UM. And that I think is is why it. I I'm
not sure the lack of cynicism was an active choice because the idea of being
cynical wasn't really like it yet. It wasn't it didn't exist yet. But
but I think that's a fabulous lesson. UM. And maybe I'm just thinking
about it because I continue to hang out with middle schoolers every single day now.
UM. The power of earnestness UM. I My journey as a as
a creative and a designer UM is sort of a a recovering cynic It's the
idea of incorrectly equating, um, being pretentious with being intelligent or being exacting
and knowing things have their time and place. That the variety of art that
exists in the world. World is there for a reason, and not to
ran on people's parade for no reason. And the true power of I love
this thing and I wanted to exist and not having to worry about being laughed
at or pointed at. So taking something into a very pure form, exploring
it, deconstructing it, yes, but presenting it as earnestly as possible,
I think is unbelievably powerful. It is. And this was something too,
I reflected on when I went to visit you for the last ep like for
one of our episodes, Yeah, when you and I were talking about Majesty,
and I was thinking about, like how much I genuinely enjoyed Majesty the
Fantasy Kingdom sim and having replayed it again, I was like, oh my
God, like this. I like this not because it's trying. It's not
trying to reinvent anything. It just takes all of these fantasy tropes into glories
in them. And that was that that level of just fantastic earnestness of like
the bad guys are bad, the good guys are good. It just I
don't know, there's something so refreshing about someone who loves what they do and
is passionate about it, and there's so much passion in that weird look game.
So yeah, I think there's a cycle. There's a cycle of presented
a simple idea, than complicating it, than making it dark, including anti
heroes, and then that becoming tired because it's a trope in and of itself,
and then cycling back to the earnestness. And I think that that's ultimately
where things get reside you you you fall where you want to in the side.
Yeah, correct, Oh yeah that's true, is your Yeah? Yeah?
Yeah, So I got four, We got four and four For this
list, I'm sticking mostly to video games. So when I was thinking about
these experiences that I had, some of it was what is this opening cut
scene? What is it teach you in terms of design? And the other
section that I realized between the my top four here that I placed, there
is a strong musical component to all of these. So I music is a
big part of my life, but also how I love running tables because ultimately
what I'm doing is I'm trying to create an emotional experience. And so these
four games that I'm talking about all have this in common is that they're deeply
emotional for different reasons. And so this first game I want to talk about
is the opening to Hitman to Silent Assassin. That was my favorite hit Man
game. It's on the PS two and PS two into PS three was a
time in which, you know, the graphics were getting vastly more complicated,
games were taking a lot more time to be made, they were much much
more expensive, and the identity crisis was all of a sudden struggling to try
and find an adult audience. It wasn't just kids in arcades in the eighties
and nineties. They were starting to come of age, and so there was
this insecurity back to earnestness, and insecurity about the art form. Oh,
movies are pop culture and as seen as high art. Why can't we be
high art? And so a lot of these games were immediately then trying to
mimic cinema, and for me, that was at some at some level missing
the point because all of a sudden, they were missing what could and couldn't
be done as the medium, you know, trying to just like blanket copy
all of it. Um. I think that the opening cut scene and the
opening levels of Hitman felt so mature to the kind of game that I was
playing, UM, things like your grand theft autos and whatever. Um,
it's it's sophomoric satire. But the earnestness of this story, UM, the
setting, the incredible music, UM, the story you got and then then
being introduced into your first little sandbox, UM was all emotionally connected to who
you were. UM In Hitman you're a clone hits um and the current generation
of games You're Hitman one, two, and three that are all there being
absolutely exploded in the complexity of their level design. They've really come about into
this new renaissance, which is so exciting. But I think that Hitman two
Silent Assassin really nailed it and I cared emotion that was going on. I
have a palette of music that I continue to use for all these games,
and Hitman two selet Assassin continues to be a high benchmark to me in terms
of adult storytelling, strong themes, excellent characterization, and just really selling beat
to beat to beat, the intro not feeling there and really placing you into
its world. That was both. It hadn't reached peak cartoon. It kind
of became a meme for a while. We're gonna dress up like a chicken
and you know I'm going to stand on the round. Yeah, exactly.
Hitman two really managed to find it stride in a huge way, and I
remember feeling so respected because I hadn't been talked down to that it was it
was going for a thing. It wasn't just trying to mimic cinema, but
also it felt emotional and connected to what I was curious about at the time.
Yeah, there's a lot of I remember playing hit Man games and checking
out even the newer hit Man ones, and I'm still it's not like an
intro necessarily, but I'm always really impressed by how they approach the start of
a level because you really are kind of given that sandbox feel. So,
I mean it's still a little cartoony now, but I don't know something about
being able to approach a problem in any number of different ways, Like I
don't play Hitman like nearly not only thing I played Hitman in like he hears.
But it's interesting to watch Hitman speed runners play because each way they approach
it. I don't know, when you talk about being treated with respect as
a consumer of the products, right, there's the consumer of that story,
the consumer of those characters. I yeah, Hitman does it pretty well like
and then continues to do so. I would argue, at least in some
ways in terms of level design, pure level design. This it's it's the
best has ever been and which is good news to me because some of the
middle games kind of in this in this series, I feel like dipped in
quality. They kind of had an identity crisis. So I'm so glad that
they're better. That are better, But I will always have a soft spot
in my heart for Hitman two stelf Assassin on the On the PS two,
I think it is a stone cold classic and is a game that still emotionally
resonates with me very hard today in this talking about it, Oh that's awesome.
There's a couple of PS two um honorable mention to Shadow of the Colossus,
which almost made my list introductions because you talk about emotional games from the
PS two that still resonate with you, I'm like, oh man, it's
like it almost you don't want to kill those big cool things. I still
don't you that one. I hate that one, UM so chilling, and
you can kill them they are just killings are pretty nice. Um So my
second one so I'm gonna bounce back and forth. I'm gonna do board game,
video game, board game, video game. Uh So, those of
you who are familiar to the show, and I know Graham knows this,
I love me some Dragon Age. Um and my introduction for this one is
Dragon Age Origins. I loved the different character openings. It was the first
time that in a traditional RPG like that, it felt like what you chose
for your starting character really impacted the story, and those reverberations continued on for
the rest of the game. Like I remember doing a major playthrough and being
like, Wow, this is really interesting and I'm bypassing some serious challenges because
somebody from that playthrough that I had helped in a really strange way wound up
remembering my character and remembering that backstory. Or like, if you're the Noble
spoilers, I guess if you're going to all play Dragon Age, I'm sorry
it came out like twenty years ago at this point, like a while ago,
but like, if you're the Noble, your family gets wiped out like
in the first opening things and that stuff continues on into the late game if
you chose that as your like opening origin status and it was interesting to see
part of how part of what I love about a good story is does it
relate to my character choices. In this case, it did relate to how
I built my character and are those going to have far reaching implications to the
rest of the game. And part of my enjoyment of dragon Age is a
franchise at least or was going back and trying every single different origin point because
they were all so wildly different. They were all really good. I really
liked them, and they all did different things for different characters, and like
none of them were really saney, which was kind of cool. Like if
you play the Dwarf Noble, you're basically running a dwarf and bank cartel mob
for like the first two hours of the game. I like, and it's
wildly different than being like a wild Elf, where you're like running around and
there's like a werewolf curse that's a flinting your people, and I'm like,
this is such a weird it pinballs around. But it was very, very
good, and I remember origins continuing to impress me. And again, part
of the reason I came back and did so many different playthroughs was because I
was like, I just want to see what happens when I make a new
character. Those first two hours are really really strong, so dry new Origins
it is my second pick. Yeah, I don't love everything about Origins,
but the opening is exceptional and special. It hasn't really ever been and done
that way again um A lot of as games again continue to get more expensive
and take longer to make. Um uh, there is this continued conversation about,
well, if we do these open ended design choices, then that means
that the majority of the players won't see all the content that we spend years
of crunch, not seeing our families and being underpaid in order to make um
and um by aware you know, has not mutated in the way that I
wish that they had. I mean just for me. Obviously, they're not
calling me every day to say, Graham, how do we make our games
better? They're making business decisions, and as they and the best business decisions
either. Unfortunately, Dragon Age's Origins Origins is so special. Many of my
favorite games, particularly CRPGs, play with this idea because ultimately, what are
you trying to do? You're trying to emulate the tabletop RPG experience and the
variation that you're like, we're going to your first two hours basically of the
game are going to be completely different. You're going to play into it,
and then they're gonna sock at you into the main uh campaign. Um,
it's not something that's cast off. And then you have your you know,
we're gonna go to four regions before we go to the final region, and
one of those four regions is going to be your home, which means that
as you go back, it feels like less like a video game and more
like a tabletop experience. Yeah. Um, And they leaned away from that
in later titles, which was really kind of heartbreak. I've never been out.
I mean I've seen CRPGs that have done that, but not a game
kind of like of not not to this degree and not to the way that
it's specialized. I you know, it was such a cool idea and continues
to be there. You know, we've talked about other novel systems in games,
like the Nemesis system, which is I think cooler in prem then a
lot of it ends up being but origins I do think completely sticks the landing
in a way that it feels like a magic trick. The sheer amount of
work that was put into it. They didn't have to do that stuff they
did, and yeah, I have nothing for respect for it. And I
think that's part of the reason why I dislike the other games in the franchise,
because it feels like a lot of that storytelling and a lot of that
work was cast off for the the ub Soft. Let's go around a map
and find checkpoint. I'm like, come on, team, all right,
what's your second one? Graham? I'm ready? All right. So this
is another deeply emotional experience based on music, based of time my life.
We are talking about my favorite Final Fantasy, Final Fantasy seven. Final Fantasy
seven, from its opening cinematic to its dynamic camera, to the storytelling of
basically the first the first section. I mean, I could talk about all
all of until you leave midguard, but really I'm talking about the quiet music
and seeing this incredible city and then you zoom out into the sky and you
get to see the reactor and the camera comes barreling down onto a train.
The train pulls into a station, and your characters flip off that train and
start attacking people and you have no idea what you're playing. You're so sold,
and the music is pounding, and after you get through this, this
three dimensional experience, and you're overtaken by like, wow, this guy Cloud
looks awesome and you like slice people in half, and then you just get
again just enough storytelling jess An exhibition to keep you going. You're oh,
I'm a cold mercenary, but these people are taking part in some kind of
ecological terrorism. That's interesting, what does that mean? And then just a
little bit of a mystery, a solid boss fight and a timer to run
out and you blow up a reactor like to this day, I think it's
one of the best introductions in gaming RPGs and certainly Final Fantasy. As a
younger gamer, I eight Breathe Lept the first basically ten Final Fantasies. Everything
after that falls off really harshly for me. And I've talked about this,
you know, I'm a victim of when I was born. Why I think
seven is so exceptional. But I think that the emotion, the music,
the world that it pulls you into the way that you get character, it
works perfectly. And his lessons that I've learned many times when I do a
no prep story, how much of a hook do you get? How much
mystery do you have How do you combine that with the character letting you focus
in and really fall into a story and a world that felt like the stakes
were real, that it mattered, the choices were being made, and you
were excited to see what was going to happen next. Perfectly based, exceptional
and it felt so fresh too, Like I just thinking about the eco terrorist
angle, like I remember no one had done or tried anything like that.
Like having the environment and the impact of other people on the environment be such
a big part of that story, right, was something As a kid I
was even like this is really different, and as an adult like I can't.
I can't think of another piece of media that kind of does that,
either as well or at all in the way their Final Fantasy seven does.
Yeah, For me, what was so powerful about the double edged sort of
it was being Final Fantasy and the game's previous to it. In the series
six played with a lot of themes and if you line them both up to
together, there's there's a lot of things that are directly taken that are copy
carbon copies. Um. But for me, I would rather fight this big
corporation than a Star Wars and empire like it's just you know, it's it's
it's a lot less interesting to me. But the idea that the fantasy tropes
are so strong, and then jump in into three D. But then also
it became this cyberpunky magic, fading technology rising thing again and the camera lets
you see this city, you're on a train, all of this technology everywhere.
So not only was it suddenly new based on the idea that it felt
more modern, felt more technological. Why it was because this ecological terrorism angle
was the reason for it. How the light's power? Where does where's power
come from? It's being drawn out of the planet, which is killing it.
And so you have both the reason for this high tech and the reason
for the conflicts being the same thing. Wow, yeah, it's a it's
a beautiful thing. It really is. We honestly probably could do a whole
episode on Final Fantasy seven and it would it might have Yeah, it might
have to be uncomfortably self indulgent because it's it would be good, though,
I don't know, because I think his Final Fantasy seven, there are games
like it. Final Fantasy seven I think is one of them. Act Arena
of Time or Major's Mask, whichever one. Take your pick um that continued
to stand the test of time as like hallmarks and game design. And I
don't think it's just because the gameplay is super fun um. I think there's
a lot of stuff that goes into the creation of those games, those themes,
the exploration of them, and what those characters do when you combine it
with that theme, right, that term of like ludo narrative, like how
does the play and the story interact together that makes them stand out and makes
us keep coming back to them over and over again? Would it be a
little indulgent? Yeah, but like would it be an interesting case study to
talk about, especially from a designer's perspective? I think yes too, because
like, why are we still talking about Final Fantasy seven? You know,
god n Iron? Like how long? Because I was born in nineteen eighty
eight? Well, and because well, but it's awesome though, right,
that's not just because you know, I don't think you're the if you were
the only one talking about Final Fantasy seven generation of course I'm not the only
person. Why it feels self indulgent is that like saying hello Internet, have
you thought about how Final Fantasy seven is like pretty sweet? Uh? You
know, I don't know if I've added it anything to the conversation, but
in terms of the intro specifically implanted as themes and how it affected me emotionally,
yes, that's something that I feel absolutely happy talking about. Yeah,
you know, I think maybe we just do a classic games breakdown. I
think that I too, could be kind of cool. Speaking of classic games.
I am what some people in one of Graham's discord chats would call a
gloom Haven stand Um I am. I am a thousand percent of gloom Havens,
and gloom Haven is my pick for another way do it. And yeah,
I thought about it, was like, oh, I can't pick glue
Behaven. It's intro is awful. And then I moved on and I was
like, I wonder if Kyle will oh I should have called my shot.
You should have. You absolutely should have. But yeah, I loved,
I loved the intro for gloom Haven. Um. I love. At the
time that I played gloom Haven, I was looking for something different for fantasy.
Um. I had played a lot of fantasy. They do though they're
iox technically am actually they are, They're they're orcs. But um, I
think what I was looking for was I wanted a little bit of teeth.
Um. I wanted to feel challenged or in danger or horns. I guess
if you want to go it that way. UM. In my fantasy RPG
and I remember a being shocked at almost dying in the opening scenario of a
board game. I remember being grabbed by the combat system the second it was
used. I thought the opening scenario did a good job of giving you opportunities.
I think to use a lot of the systems without overwhelming you. And
I think my favorite thing about it though, is that when you know,
when you start off Gloomhaven, you are a rags to riches, down on
your luck mercenary. And there's a little line at the end of it that
I absolutely love, where like the bandit Gike draws his sword and Reverend's like,
all right, well, we're gonna take all of your money or your
life, and then there's a little line that says, jokes on them,
you had money, you probably wouldn't be here in the first place. Like,
I don't know, I loved that part. It immediately grabbed me,
and I recently taught this to a group of players who are out a local
game store who are like, oh my god, Gloom even looked so cool.
We've heard all about it, and I was like, all right,
let's try it. And they had never played a game like Bloomhaven before.
They were used to dungeon and dragons. They were used to other classic fantasy
games where like a bandit is cannon fodder. And then one of them ran
head first knew a group of bandits and nearly got killed in the first two
seconds of the thing. And he was like, oh, oh, they're
actually dangerous, and I was like, yeah, budding this. You know,
when we we talked about this, I tried to warn you guys,
everything in this world is dangerous, um, and you need to approach the
children. That sounded like your teacher voice. It was, Yeah, it
turns out people who want to steal you and have a bunch of swords will
stab you for your money. Um, who wants to steal me, mister
Ott? Someone in a well? Uh No, I love Gloom haveven uh.
It is a game that has continued to enchant me. I guess,
but I think that opening level is a pretty strong one in terms of a
tabletop RPG experience. That's my that's my pick for number three is Gloom haveven
baby. Yeah, so I want to ask you, um I, I
feel like gloom Haven as a whole is you know, the strength of it.
It's the system, it's the cards. Um So, what is it?
I'm gonna press you. What is it about the trow you think does
well in in doing so? Um I. I do have a memory of
a going into It's like when I was still living in Washington Heights and I
went into a game shop and people were like, we're gonna play Gloomhaven.
I'm like, great, you know, let's sit down. And the guy
who owned it turned and said, I have played the opening scenario seven times
and lost seven times. And I'm like, that's how it's hard, but
only when like hard. It's not that hard. And we sat down and
I beat it with them, and they, you know, looked at me
like I was some kind of like gaming messiah, and I was like,
no, you just gotta play it a little more conservatively until the point in
which you say, oh god, my deck is almost ran it out,
and then you blow through and hope you don't make it. So I think
in general, the game teaches you that because it is difficult, it's it's
more eurowe it's thinkier than your dudgeon crawl. So what is it about the
intro specifically you've done. You've pretty much done a good job of explaining what
my point's gonna be for me, which is, oh, yeah, this
is a game world where you're not the big hero. You were not the
I mean, eventually, yeah, you get to that point, but you
don't start off as the chosen one. You don't start off as you know
this mythical prophesize. Although although maybe you did at Graham, because you clearly
you were the gaming messiah for that group who filled seven times. It's a
role that I I take, you know, with much sorrow, but if
it needs be forward, it's a tough cross debate. But no, you're
you already down on their luck mercenary and you play that game. If you
play that game like you are the chosen one, you're gonna get killed.
But if you play that game like a down on your luck mercenary who pulls
every dirty tree, and you know, the chosen one and abandoned, I
don't think you're mutually exclusive. You're not. But but I compare this again,
I think I compared a lot to dungeon Dragons or games like that,
which, um, you know, have you slogging through a lot of lower
tier monsters with very little fanfare. This world treats everything like it's dangerous and
everything like it's deadly, and it would be to you this basically pour down
on their luck, cell Sword and I loved that angle, and I thought
that the first mission did a great job of connecting that theme of this world,
that this is not like we can go save the world or you can
do what my grip did and just immediately just mess off to the furthest corner
of the universe to harvest poison mushrooms because they were really expensive and we can
sell them fir stuff. But like that's part of the charm of it.
And I liked the world was like, Nope, this is really dangerous.
And if you treat everything like it's dangerous and you pull no punches, you
use every dirty trick in your book, you abuse these systems to beat the
monsters, You're going to be okay because the monsters are going to abuse the
systems to try to kill you. And I liked that. I like that
angle, and I continue to light that angle. If I want to play
right, I have my hero Quest for My Earnest, my Earnest Power Fantasy,
and I have my gloom Haven for I want to I want to kick
people my selling mushrooms Senulator. Yeah, that's it, that's I enjoy about
it. Um that man, what a what a rush opening that box up
for the first time. Having never played a Legacy game before, that was
my first. That was my first Legacy game. That was that was an
experience. So what do you mean I get stickers? Yeah, it was
like one thing, what are all these boxes like? We didn't even look
at any of the character classes. We didn't know what they did. We
picked a box based on the symbol that we thought looked cool, and we
all agreed. We're like, this is it you you were You're riding this
character until they're gone, dead or retired. And that was cool. That
was cool too because it forced it to try new things. So I played
Risk Legacy in college with a group and uh, you know, we were
we were pretty much hooked. And there's all these different envelopes, largely that
have different instructions on them. Whoever wins by x number, if you win
by new game, if you blah blah blah, you could be able to
open under these different scenarios, and at the bottom is a sheet I don't
need everything that you pull out all the plastic everything. There's an envelope on
the inside the box. It says never opened this ever, m And we
just thought that was the greatest thing in the world. This did you open
it? I don't remember when I have read things online where people like didn't
take it, like they like burned it in like a Viking funeral and like
all kinds of stuff like never you know whatever. That's Rob Davio said in
interviews. He's like, I never thought anyone would listen to me. Um.
So that that's a lesson of itself at the board game Police, like
if you have game given you instructions like how often will people cheat? And
how often will people treat it like it's scripture? You know, Yeah,
it's I don't know. Yeah, that was super exciting. I did love
to when we like we opened it up. There's a I guess a small
spoiler for Bloomhaven. If you pull everything out of the box. At the
bottom of the box, there's an envelope that just has opened this when you
think you deserve it. Um, I don't know if that's a direct call
back to what I was doing. But I remember being like, that's so
cool, um so, and I just don't think it's cool. All right,
what's what's your next one? Grandm I'm excited. But when I first
pitched this idea to you, part of it was like opening dungeons, intro
dungeons. That was a big part of it. And this was definitely part
of the game that inspired me making this pitch specifically because again, these are
all games formative to my process as growing older and developing, as what my
taste was and what appealed to me. It didn't help also that this game
is like really in depth and exciting, and so I made new characters for
it over and over and over again, heard the same intro music over and
over and over again, and then the incredible voiceover from the villain David voiced
by David Werner coming up to your cell and talking to you, and then
you're getting your NPCs, Like I can do all of this dialogue of Balder's
Gate two front to back from memory, doing all of the voices for all
of the characters. Oh, the child of Ball has awoken and and part
of it is the fact that wake up in a prison cell and escape out
I think is an incredible cold open. Plenty of video games have a scene
in the middle somewhere where you take your stuff away and you have to get
out, and there's really only a couple of solutions that that happened. Okay,
you're gonna distrack the guard, or you need to pull them over the
bars, or there will be a key in your pillow. Like I feel
like the solutions are you know, I could count them on one hand,
sure, but I love the wake up in a prison try and escape scenario
a lot. And it's probably a result of Balder's Gate two. If you're
trying to create party a party dynamic and create that grittiness that like low level
thing that you're praising in gloom Haven. Ah, we're not heroes. We
have a lot at stake. I think taking away stuff initially and then having
everybody have a in game experience for why that they are needing to survive together,
why they need to coordinate, having to think outside the box, but
then also not having a single solution, I think that that immediately draws this
incredible synergy between the role play and combat and strategy. I want any solution
to be discussed or create the immersion at the table right, and Balder's Gate
two does that. The writing is exceptional. It's really weird and really dark.
A lot of the stuff you find initially it builds up the villain,
which to me is another great part of media when you love the villain and
they're not at an Act three reveal, or they're a mystery villain the whole
time, or at somebody you suspect and you know there's a twist of the
end. Actually, the unassuming Lamb is in the mastermind the entire time.
When you have an exceptional performance and part of the game is understanding the villain
and their motivation, you will have a much stronger story and all of these
lessons are part of it. Only then, once you overcome this prison dungeon
which is special and has such a flavor, do you get spit out into
the city, um sandbox, and then you get to do all the urban
D and D stuff. Oh, we're going to explore all these back alleys
and find all the politics, do this other thing. But you feel like
you've you've literally emerged from this this great trial to come into the city and
it's great. It has inspired me many times and continues to do so incredible
music that that intro, that intro screen where I've made so many characters over
and over and over again. Bad's Gate too, No question. Absolutely,
it's one of my favorite tropes. Is well, I'm happy that you you
touched on it. I love when, maybe it's not in Silia prison,
but I love when characters have nothing are forced to scrape by with their wits
and what they can find, and then emerge into what unto the greater setting.
Right. I've done it for many of my fantasy camp pains, many
many, many many many of my games, my favorite video games and board
games have done the same thing. But I love it. It's like one
of the best parts. Yeah, excitedly awake must have gotten oh blah blah,
Juni prairies, JUNI prepares so stupid. I was thinking about that,
actually, be like, I wonder if this did jest there, Like,
oh my god, yeah, I even though nobody likes Oblivion, I think
Oblivion's intro dudget is great, but like, oh my god, it's the
same thing. You're in a prison cell. Patrick Stewart breaks you out,
and I think that opening dudget is one of the best, uh that all
the Elder Scrolls ever did. Yeah, I'm a sucker for Mora Wind and
Mora Wins weirdness, and I think Skyrim is a walking meme at this point.
Um, that's why the Patrick Stewart intro and and that dungeon, Like
I still think I feel like one of the strongest parts of that game.
So yeah, I would agree. I was actually gonna be I was actually
gonna bring up both Elder Scrolls, both Skyrim and Um, it's not is
it Oblivion or Moro Wind, It's it's obliving Moro Wind Oblivion. Yeah,
it's that's three four and five. Because I haven't really played Daggerfall, but
it's much before my time. But I've watched plenty of video essays on it.
I've watched fun and one person because I know my new one guy who
was a computer science dude in college who like got dost work on this computer
and played every Elder Schools game from the Bigger than Great Britain and so you
could crazy cross it, which is nuts, but it's all boring. It
is the thing like it's all procedurally generated and it all looks really sane.
So yeah, it's it's it's it's such an interesting time in RPG development.
Yeah, oh god, this is I love RPGs. I love I love
rg I know, I know that's I'm pitching to, you know, I'm
appreaching of the choir as it were, But like, god, it's just
it's it's like, what kind of mad lad just makes a game the size
of Britain? And then like just because why not when you had MUDs and
other things online and it was all RP and Ultima was kind of the this
this level of design to those early times of what is an immersive salmon was
an RPG like trying to immulate what you got as a tabletop experience. The
idea that you have somebody who is able to react to you in real time,
that you're able to have all these decisions, how do you codify that
in this specific way? And so what if we make a giant map that
really feels immersive? Was a huge swing and that's what they that's what they
did with the tech of the time. So and I this is something I've
said many times about game design, especially bout games that I hate and games
that I love, because people are like why do you like, you know,
you dunk on like t Dragon Society or something, but you're like you
don't necessarily for the exact reason that I respect when someone goes and they take
a huge swing. I'd rather someone take a huge swing and make a huge
miss and try something really interesting then phoned in and try to do something they
think everyone else is gonna like like the Oreos. They didn't even try,
like some of the Oreos. Yeah, like, come on, guys,
all the thing is that college humor sketch where he did you see that one
where Brendan y Mulligan is the fake CEO of Oreos And like at one point
that you brought it up on that episode. Okay, I couldn't remember straight
face being like, literally, that's literally the entire joke I'm gonna make for
fifty minutes. Yeah, it's good, you guys. Can you can just
you can just phone and just and Jesus, he asked, here though,
I stand by that. I love it, cheesier, Um, noah,
I love it. All right, I'm ready for my last intro. All
right, hit me. This was something you touched on a lot. I
m emotions and games are I don't know, if it's just me, or
if it was just that I was at a point where I hadn't been feeling
a lot of emotions when I played my games. Um, but I played
a game during grad school and it just it's sort of I guess hit me
at a really formative point. Were there times in which you played games where
you weren't feeling emotions? Yeah, some of them. Some of them,
I'm like some of them. I think I was too, Like, I
guess I should check in with you. No, no, no, it's
okay. Some people are just like, oh, I felt so much when
I played are Political Majora's Mask. But I was like, I was seven
at the time that I played Madora's Mask or nine, And the sword made
fire when I held it down, and then I ran around and I got
a cool mask, and I'll remember a whole lot of No, obviously I've
got of that world. Didn't strike you, No, I did. Actually,
that's uh not the skullboy. That moon is terrifying. That move exists
in a plane of existence that I'm not sure I ever want to be a
part of. But in grad school, I played a game and I think
it was just at a really particular point in my life where it was the
story and what it was trying to say resonated with me in a particular way.
And I love love, love, love love super giant games. UM.
I have mentioned this, but Hades is not my favorite super Giant game.
UM Transistor is. And the opening to Transistor was such a wild,
wild introduction to that game for a lot of different reasons. One UM,
a jazz punk aesthetic was amazing a wash in this soundtrack that felt wistful and
sorrowful, but still had this sort of gravitas and power like you talked about,
I think it sound like a soundtrack and really grab you, really shake
you, really be like, yo, this is what we're doing, and
then pulling the sword or the transistor out of who you later find to be
the main characters dead lover, dead boyfriend, dead husband, whatever you want
to call him, and his voice coming from the sword really being the only
sort of character dialogue as you kind of go through these levels. It felt
it was such a weirdly stark contrast for a game to have such a vibrant
soundscape and a vivid sense of visual design and basically couple that with some of
the most sparse character dialogue and sparse, bleak sound design that I have heard,
and it was that juxtaposition that grabbed me and did not let me go
until I had finished and beaten the game for the first time, and in
many ways still kind of hasn't let me know. I have played many,
many games, and for whatever reason, that opening to Transistor continues to just
be like, Wow, I can't believe that that was a thing that I
got to experience. Are you feeling particularly melancholy? And I was, yeah,
nothing about that at the time that it definitely was. I think it
was a combination of that, but also the me being in that headspace world
liked you this is like and this is I was like, I was ready
and I was ready to feel the sad boy hours. I was. I
was given the sad boy hours. But again, that bleak contrast between how
vivid and bright and beautiful the world looked and the sparseness of that soundscape are
is a wonderful juxtaposition. Um so yeah, Transistors, Transistors my last one.
I love it. I know it's not technically in the intro, but
there's one point where she takes her more like a motorcycle across a bridge and
it's that long. It's almost like a long shot of just her riding in
silence with the soundtrack. Um. Yeah, very very grabbing, very arresting.
So Transistor. But yeah, I know I Transistor. I feel like
it's in in this Like then, the great thing about Super Giant games is
that they continue to you know, innovate and grow upon each other. Um.
When Bastion came Advocate, everybody loved it and it's a really solid,
awesome game. Um. But Transistor and Pyre really started to kind of play
with more ideas and got really experimental in like a really exciting way. Um
talk about big swings. Um, I think definitive definitively Hades is their best
kid. Um. But and and again I'm not I'm not having this's not
a hot take for whatever. No no, Um, but it's hard to
argue that the Transistor was really special and all of Super Giants games are really
special. So um that affecting you in such a strong way speaks to the
power of their storytelling. Yeah, and they they don't they don't ever seem
to like deviate from that either, Like they take big swings all the time.
Like you said, they keep innovating. Um, I was surprised that
Hades is getting a sequel, the first sequel ever, but like, Hades
is so good and they completely nailed something like absolutely no shade for coming up
with no play done. Uh for a sequel to the best game they've ever
made and one of the best games anyone has ever made. So like,
well, and I'm interested because it's for that, it's Super Giant. How
are they going to innovate on it? Because I know they're not just doing
anything about the game. I know nothing about Hades too. Nothing. Then
I'll tell you one thing. I know that, sister. That's it.
That's all I know. You're going from the bottom to the top right here,
You're going to the top to the bottom bottom. The only thing I'm
gonna tell you, Okay, Yeah, I would say I want to know
nothing, because I also know that if there's one thing Super Giant does and
does well, they're like, if they're doing a sequel, it's because they
think they could do something special with it. Yeah, And I'm I'm I'm
pumped. I'm ammed out of my brain. I'm like, it's gonna be
sick, it's gonna be so good. I still haven't played a bad Supergiant
game. I don't think I ever. Will they keep their philosophy the way
in there for sure? What is your last one? Graham? I'm excited.
Yeah, absolutely so um. In terms of influence on the way that
I've run tabletop games, like it's no question balls Kate too. UM.
But one of my favorite experiences as a curator and as an evangelist for good
media, good stories, good comic books, good music. UM. I
love sharing with the with people. And that's why I love tabletop games.
That's why I love board games and role playing games is because they are experiential
by design, and by placing myself in a role where I get to say,
hey, come over here, come look at this thing, it means
that I am responsible for creating that kind of environment and I and I take
that very seriously and it's really important to me. This is a game that,
probably more than any other game, I said here and I put a
controller in somebody's hand and I sat them down and I didn't say anything,
and I was like, just play. Because I think the first minute is
exceptional. I think the second minute is exceptional. I think the first five
minutes, ten minutes twenty minutes thirty minutes are all perfection, and I'm excited
because we've broached this as well as it's sequel, which is nowhere near as
good, but you like more, and that's BioShock one. BioShock ones opening
is potentially the strongest of any video game ever. I there's there's certain things
designed wise that I prefer about system Shock, particularly systems talk too but in
terms of not wasting your time those talkie opening sequences, and I'm not gonna
really talk about much of anything in any detail at all as best I can,
just to say that the number of excellent hits within the first five,
ten and twenty minutes are all there, and you're the point where the opening
cut scene is so short that more than once, and I was very excited
when this happened in college, when I handed the control to a friend and
the first time you can control it, it's so overwhelming that you just sit
there and you're staring at the imagery. People don't realize that they can move,
which is exciting, and then finally a little thing will pop up that's
you can use the left control or move and they're like ah, immediately,
it's just so exciting. The opening cut scene is so short. I'm so
excited about it every time because I love a Lord of the Rings opening monologue.
I'm a huge sucker for it. Like let's talk about the war twenty
thousand years ago, and let's do this, and like let's get the emotion
of Galadriel and then finally place you in the shire. I'm a huge sucker
for that. The idea that BioShock gives you just this tiny little to tease
and then this incredible opening image, and then everything you do for the first
hour are interesting and scary and weird and beautiful and fascinating. It's the best
video game intro ever made. Yeah, I don't get tired of it,
and I think it's exceptional. Yeah. Yeah, there's a reason why plenty
of people tattooed the dang things on their wrist, Like I know so many
people who have done that, just because, like like Transistor for You and
like F seven, BioShock hit at a time where a lot of people hadn't
played games like that. It was mainstream enough it looked like a first person
shooter but really isn't, and so a lot of people who hadn't played games
that philosophical or political or scary or again taking the huge swings. It introduced
people to this idea. But for me, again, it's all about the
emotion. It's all about how complicated you can give it and have people actually
absorb what you're doing in such a short period of time. I'm shocked we
haven't said the phrase master class yet in this episode. Right now it goes
to us. Kudos to us, but I'm gonna break it. Yeah,
that whole series again, that was one that again to follow me. No,
no, I love you stop there. I love the whole series.
I'm one of the people who I loved BioShock Infinite. I loved bosh is
very bad. Wow, that's wild to me because I loved Infinite. Um
I thought two was the weakest out of all of them. Um. Yeah,
but again, big swing, it was a different Big swing. Playing
is a big Daddy is wild. And then it has one of the best
DLCs. Um of generation have not played the DLC for it. That's my
DLC is significantly better than the main game. Interesting, it like it.
It saves the game in such a way. And Wow, I could talk
about the difference between the main game and the DLC a whole episode and about
what it teaches about to sign that's how good it is. Okay, cool
interest all right, Well then that means that's something that I I definitely need
to kind of, you know, get get into then because I loved again,
I loved all of BioShock um and I. But I do remember playing
one and having a very similar experience where I was at a friend's house and
they said, I'm not going to tell you anything, can you just so
happy? And it was awesome. It was it was sick, and I
was sitting there going, oh my god, like half of this is you
could do this in a game. I was like, what the what what
it's it's about the third or fourth hit. There's two or three or four
things that all happen in a row. And I'm not going to be specific
again because I don't want to ruin this. Even even if this game I
will never ruin. No spoilers for this at all. But there's there's like
the fourth big reveal, uh and my friend is sitting on the couch and
he turns to me wide eyed. Not a bit of video game player,
so like struggles with the first person controls kind of and wide eyed goes this
is just storytelling, which I feel like you could put on the box.
Yeah. I was so pleased that that was his reaction. This is just
lit, old fashioned storytelling, storytelling. I will also go one step further
too, I think um in praise of BioShock Infinite or not, although I
would BioShock UM, I think the environmental storytelling of that is just as strong
as the as the everything like finding the different like notes and audiologs and all
this stuff that paints a vivid picture of the fall of this place, UM
and the people in it is as starkly, starkly, starkly starkly arresting then
as it was when I played it like two months ago, and I was
like, oh my god, this is so bleak, and that's such a
good job of sucking you into that world. Like I remember minor characters who
don't appear in the game at all except an audiol I know their names,
like it's crazy. Yeah. Environmental storytelling really became the buzzword of a generation,
you know, like or buzz phrase, uh, you know, just
just below ludo narrative dissonance because people realized, oh wow, how do I
do these things when you have a kind of media that is based on player
agency, Like how do I tell these stories without cut scenes? So it
was audiologs became really in vogue again, this all systems shock stuff. Listening
to other people talking, Um, it's theres all this absive sim innovation that
sort. It infected all these other games through the mainstream booming success of Hioshock
one. So, yeah, what a game? What a game? Shouts
Kendlov game shout outs Kenlo mean shouts irrational. He's kind of a trash human.
But oh no, oh yeah, shout out to pull Pot, shout
out to Kenn space Sty Why what did he do? I feel like I
can't game. People are terrible folks, you know. Oh that's sad.
That makes me sad. Well, hey, great game though, great game.
Game, that's just that's just good old fashion storytelling. Don't give.
I don't give pull Pot of pass. He didn't write by Yeah, that's
true. Maybe if he did. How to get more bad? So terrible?
I can't even make I can't even finish that joke. Mary Mary kiss
kill, Ken Levine, pull Pot, and Kevin Spacey, Oh god,
might kill myself three times over. Um, I'm supposed to do the weird
question at the end. I know, I know, I'll I'll wait for
your weird question, do your plug, your plug, and then I'll do
your weird questions. Um, so simple plug. If you've not gone after
rain, it's still available over our friends and ipr um. Right now the
desks Dork's storefront is officially open. Everything says out of stock, um because
we're Why are you telling them? Because it should be because it will be
open very soon. That's what I'm saying. If you go there, it's
not an error. Don't worry about it. Just keep check her back.
I promise. I'm just excited. It works and it looks good. Listen,
let me let me share my excitement the world. Let let let you
know that to let you buy absolutely nothing. Yeah that's true. Um,
I don't think that works, you know, but it's cool and it's pretty
and I like it. Um No, but it should be getting updated very
soon. Just okay. I know. Well. The reason I'm telling people
is people have been looking and they're like, hey, stuff sits out of
stock. There's a reason. It's the back ends almost done. Um.
Just I wanted to share the progress of that, which makes me really happy
because you can go ahead and you can get yourself a copy of Fear within
very soon, which is cool because we have more copies to sell. We
bought partners. We can do that now. Just wild to think about.
Shout out to us, I guess for continuing to grow at a rapid clip,
which is really cool. Man, Kevin Levine, I don't know if
I want to be a peace in the pot with him if he's a bad
I was because I didn't know he was a bad person. I mean,
if you run a video game company, you're probably a bad person. Oh
no, well, I hope you're on a board game company. I hope
that doesn't a I mean, you know, the the crunch culture is not
quite the same. Yeah, you know that's true, especially because the only
person who would be crunching is me, the designer of You Do your Crunches?
Mister, I was gonna say, but it's like us whipping myself in
the back to keep to keep working faster. It's like, have you ever
seen the there's a meme? So Panic at the Disco recently announced that they're
retiring. But Panic at the Disco is just brendan jury like it's just the
one guy, and so the meme is like him pointing at himself in the
mirror, and it's like panic at the disco discussing whether or not it's going
to go on hiatus. And it's just fun. That's what it is.
Um. No, just you know, get get a copy aafter him my
pr You can follow all of us on all of our socials. Um.
Though some support to our our man, Graham Cans. Um. It's pretty
cool, dude, we like him. Thank you to everybody voted in the
Annies. Uh. It closed this week. Um Uh. Kyle and I
are both Any nominated designers as part of the Level one anthology, and we're
both gonna be a gen con attending that ceremony to see if we win.
Um. The ENnies are open to the public for voting, so that's kind
of what makes them special. Um. If you voted for us, thank
you. If you didn't vote for us, UM, that's okay. You
know, I wanted to vote for the games you like. Yeah, I'm
no inconvental about such things. You probably voted for, you know, maybe
the five V supplement or call cthlulhu or you know something else. That's okay.
You know we're coming. We're coming in and hot when our own games
are individually uh nominated. Next year, next year, Oh yeah, next
year. Next year is the year, man, it's gonna happen. It's
the year it's gonna happen. It is. I'm excited to stay tuned to
see if we're any winners. Yeah. Oh man, dude, being in
anyone winner what that'd be wild. That'd be wild to say, that would
be cool. And they're gonna be just got to go off the deep end,
go all these crazy parties, like I'll be stuck at a well,
I'll have to make a second print run of these golf cartons. It's gonna
be crazy. Listen. That's why we get to the money and the it's
the money in the richest money in the glory. I just imagine how much
diet Cooke you could buy. Oh my god, dude, just imagine.
I'd be drowning and ascertain. Um are you are you ready for your weird
question? I am ready excellent? So uh you Ken Levin? Yeah?
Uh is there or what cryptid do you think would make the best mall cashier?
That's a good one, thank you. Um, let's see all right,
So cryptic crypted would make the best mall cashier. Well, let's see,
just even thinking about cryptids that I don't think or like, um unredeemably
silly is such a short list. Um because many cryptids uh um, like
previously what Cyclopean was, are intensely important. They're not just like fun spooky
stories. Um. And then there's ones that are un absurdly silly, like
Nessie or the Jersey Devil or something. You know. Um. I think
Mothman has a nice soft face. Uh. You know I most of the
time I've seen Mothman, Um, he looks really hairy uh and is usually
drawn adorably. Um. If if you get a troop of cabra, um,
he's gonna be sucking all of people's products. You know you don't want
that, no, um And uh you know, so I think I think
Mothman has the most like welcoming face, you know, uh, just like
kind of an Adams fan Adams family kind of like softness to him that I
think that the Malgoths they're gonna love, They're gonna love, They're gonna love
him. Man particularly worked at like hot topic, like it'd be the most
famous hot topic in the country. I was gonna go with Mothman as well,
because you can't put you can't put a big man, big our big
man, Bigfoot. You can't put big you can't put a big foot in
the corner. He's gonna disappear. He's gonna disappear at every shift. You're
gonna be like, Bigfoot, can you cover me? It just like it.
Just put the camera on him. You know, he doesn't show up
on the stuff. Yeah, why do you think Mothman? Then you're gonna
steal my answer. Not Well, So, for one thing, I think
people just like Mothman. I think he's just a fun dude. He's attracted
to bright things. I think that makes him decent as a cashier. He's
not gonna get too distracted because the coins are bright and he just that defines
distraction. He would get very distracted. He's gonna be fine, He'll be
great. And he's kind of cuddly. I don't know every depiction of exactly
kind of cuddly, like I feel like you'd be welcoming. Like if Mothman
was like, hey, do you want to try you don't know, do
you want to sign up for our hot topic loyalty card. I'd like,
yeah, buddy, I don't know what I'm gonna I don't know what I'm
gonna buy a lot of. Yeah, I'm definitely measured mouth man. It's
like a gangly teenage cashier. You know. He definitely has that energy of
like Hillo, sir, welcome to hot topics for sure, like really tall
and skinny, you know, like just grew into the body kind of mouth
man. This is very gangly. He's kind of hanging around like oh big
Foot. Bigfoot is definitely that like manager of the store who's worked there a
little too long and is kind of bitter, like has a suit and tie.
That's that's big Foot. Here's here's our here's our next, our next
big animated hit. We're gonna have Cryptid's like with mall jobs. We'll make
a billion dollars from adult Swim. You know, we'll hit all the stereotypes.
I'm ready. I'm ready for this. I just imagine big Foot being
like you know, they had dreams once, really saddling. Now yeah,
yeah, he can't work at um like sketchers because nothing fits it. That's
like this most sisifician nightmare keeps trying on new shoes just like everywhere, like
every time, every time, and then he throws it over his shoulder and
there's a cartoon network splat sound as we like fast pan over to this huge
pile of busted tennis. It's just trying his best and he just he just
can't. A poor guy. It's just big foot going like a Pretzels pluts
across the mall. Yeah, all the Prezels have sucked by the super Cobra
because the tuper Cobra got the pro he sucks. He sucks all the cheese
dust or the cheese stuff out, like oh, Cabra has really like nasally
vice because he keeps like sloping stuff. He drinks like a bunch of nails
spray by accent, Like, dude, what are you doing? It's like
us, you know the animators. I'll do all the voices, you know.
I mean I do know an animator I think somewhere. I don't know
if he's still animating or not. Right, um, but well, I
need to make my quick my first billion first, because they they already took
my Star Trek Idea, which is the Star Trek Academy and do all the
like kids, uh, and like school drama in Star Trek and have a
few legacy characters from the series as like teachers. They're finally doing that as
a series. Like I'm like, that's my other billion dollar idea. Dang,
I didn't realize that was gonna be a series now, I kind of
I would watch that like that might be how you give me. It's been
my pitch for ten years. For ten years, I'm like, put me
in, put me in, coach, Like, I will be the show
runner of the Starfleet Academy TV show and I'll bring Star Trek back in a
quality way. That's like I love Star Trek. That's like Young Hercules,
the high school Hercules. Yeah yeah, yeah, that was the young whatever
you know, Yeah, pretty little liars. But it's it's Star Trek Academy
and a couple older actors from you know the shows are the professors, like
people Love That or Gossip Girl. Isn't that the same premise with like shows
it's the school school dramas. Yeah, yeah, dramas. I would watch
Warf as a professor loved right, my god, professor would be hysterical.
He's like trying to like, have you watched the Kids and three of Picard.
I have not. I have not watched season I have don't only watched
season three, warps in it. Yes, it's my boy, my boy.
All right. So Mothman, Mothman, we've established is the best,
the best mall or the best mall worker, mall cashier in general. Well,
folks, that has been it for deskined works for today. Huge out
out to all of you for listening. If you are still listening to Graham
and I brattle on about the new billion dollars cryptia, actually you should be
listening to that. That was awesome. Love apologize earnestness. What have we
learned? Mister Earnestness always will get you out of the well every time.
Well, that's I know where to look for you. Now I'm out of
the well on good behavior at the very waist. Okay, well based cryptids,
I'm gonna well throw you in there with the well is cryptids with the
ring girl. Oh yeah, I guess, yeah, she does come out
of will she crypted? We'll count ring you as a crypted Is that her
name? Ghost? Yeah? Ghostcrypted? She can date maf Man. That'll
be fine. Oh yeah, heck yeah, you gotta have a Japanese ghost
girl as a as a mall goth. Yeah, you absolutely do. A
really offered teenage relationship. He's attracted to like bright lights and she always comes
out of the bright TV screen like it's it's perfect. Billion dollars, We're
gonna make billion dollars. I love it all right, folks, thank you
all again so much for listening. I've been Kyle out for Desk and Dorks.
I've been Graham Dance and a big old Zippanyes Apps out. All of
you. Stay boggy, my friends,