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Hello, and welcome back to Desks
and Dorks, your favorite game design podcast.

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I don't know if it's ever once
been brought by you, but maybe

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this time will be the first time. I am the best DM Graham games.

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I use heat and they pronouns,
and I am joined by I'm Kyle

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Lott and apparently I'm on the back
of a milk carton. Yeah. Yeah,

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you know, if you've been tuning
in weekly to Desks and Dorks,

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I believe Kyle transmitted last last episode
from the bottom of a deep hole maybe

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a well and I've been looking for
him. I've been concerned about Kyle's well

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being. So for those of you
who are not watching this, I went

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to my front store in Michigan to
do a celebrity appearance, which is how

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they advertised it, and I sent
a picture of myself lying next to the

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signs and Graham just goes, it
looks like you're on a missing person's poster.

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Actually, what I said was,
it looks like you're you're lying in

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front of your own gravestones, which
is honestly just kind of incredible. So

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when you're watching this on YouTube,
I would encourage you, even if you

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don't watch other stuff on YouTube.
To go to YouTube. Just for the

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first thirty seconds you can see Graham's
master photoshop ability has put me onto a

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milk carton. Yeah, I think. I think the real of the real

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key is making sure that we've gotten
you out of the well and that you

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are back where you need to be, and then we get you know,

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last he can run over and save
me. How how was your trip?

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The trip was awesome. I think
one of the best things about it was

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a I finally get to see my
friend's store and his store is massive,

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Like, the store is huge.
It is like a mecca of gaming and

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it's really great. I joke that
I also and can walk into a game

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store and I can tell if it's
good if I go to the bathroom and

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there's feminine hygiene products for free in
the bathroom of a game store. That's

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that metric has never failed me before. And I came in and it was

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like a rack for like free pads
and free tamp I'm like, yes,

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I mean, I don't really want
to call you out, but how many

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women's bathrooms do you walk into?
The gender neutral bathrooms? So most teams

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tours will have like the mix the
mixed gender general neutral bathroom, and then

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they'll have that rack of the feminine
hygiene products. I mean, I liked

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the what you were doing. It
started good, Like I always this is

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my barama. I'm like, yeah, you're right, that is the gather

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this information. You know, you
really well because most teams played yourself.

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Most games, for as I've been
too, don't have like male female bathrooms

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anymore or like right, you know
what I mean, I haven't been anyone

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that has that, and I don't
have a good brick and mortar where I

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am anymore. So it's it's a
big shame part of the community that I'm

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starting to build. I have this
new day job, which is essentially mythology

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LARPing with kids who have may possibly
told me they have googled me and are

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now listening to the episodes. Oh
yeah, um, you know I'm gonna

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you know, watch my language.
I'm not even gonna say fuck um because

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I know the kids are listening except
for that one time obviously are you talking

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about me? M But no,
in all seriousness, the store was great.

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So my friend Ben James, who
runs the store, owns the store.

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This has been a dream of his
for like ninon eight years, um,

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And so to sort of watch it
come to fruition and to be there

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for events and to be part of
his like in store community was super cool.

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I got to meet his employees and
play games with them. I got

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to draft Magic with like his locals. Like it was just it was a

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really cool time. We had a
signing. The signing went very well as

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well. We were in play tests
for one of the two kickstarters that's coming

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up this year through Desks and dorcs. That playtests went gangbusters. U.

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The people there were like, Okay, I know we work for Ben,

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and I'm sure Ben could get this
from set discount, but like, if

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you had this today, we would
have bought it, which was wonderful to

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hear. Um. And I was
paid the ultimate compliment, So the ultimate

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sacrifice, the ultimate sacrifice. As
why I'm in well, um no,

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they're they're the three uh these three
kids that were there on Friday for the

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Magic event that they did, and
they were talking to me that all kinds

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of questions, which was adorable because
they were like, oh my god,

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you make games, How do you
make games? When did you make games?

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Where do you publish your games?
Is it hard to make games?

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And it was. It was great, right, But as somebody who grew

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up, you know, going to
their local game store and like scrounging together

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like their their pennies basically to buy
games. At the end of the night,

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the three kids would run off and
they were whispering about something, and

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I was like, what are they
doing. It turns out the three of

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them all had gift cards that they
had won or that their parents had gotten

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them, and they didn't have enough
money individually to buy a copy of After

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the Rain. They pulled their gift
cards together to buy a copy that the

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three of them could share. And
as somebody who has done that exact activity

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with his friends, were like,
Okay, we don't have enough money to

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buy this game. How much do
you have? How much do you have?

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And like that's probably all their game
money for the next three months,

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and for them to spend that on
me is the ultimate compliment I think that

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I could ever be given as a
game designer. And it's a full circle

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moment for me as well, having
grown up and bend that kid and being

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like wow, holy crap like that, Like I'm like what an honor?

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Like like again, any nomination is
great. But I was like, when

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when you get those three kids who
like live at that game store and that's

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their life and they cared enough about
what you did and what you interested them

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in to do what they did,
it was it was a huge compliment.

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So that was a highlight of that. They pulled all their money together to

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get your game. Yes, yeah, they're gonna be so disappointed. Yeah,

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probably. Uh did you tell them? Did you tell the children that

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you were Emmy nominated? Both of
us are up for any award and at

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gen Con, I not DevCon as
my kids at Camp Chu, but or

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keep trying to tell me. They
keep trying to call it DevCon. Yeah,

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actually, uh no, I uh, I don't know. If I

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talked to them about the Any nomination. Um, we talked a lot about

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magic. They talked a lot about
Fortnite memes, which is I mean,

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they're like ten that makes sense,
um, And I definitely when they I

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was like, guys, like,
just give me your email on them.

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I hooked them up with some more
PDFs of some other desks and Dirk stuff

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that they did not ask for.
But I was like, I was like,

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I don't know. It was so
touch. I probably shouldn't be giving

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away my games for free, but
I don't know it was worth it.

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Yeah, I mean, you know
their parents are gonna see that they're getting

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emails from a strange man in his
thirties, and your career is gonna take

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off. No, you know,
no such thing as bad press. You

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know it's gonna it's gonna be great. You know. Hey, I'm gonna

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well though, so what are they
gonna do? They can't find me,

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not anymore, I can hear you. That's true. I'm out. I

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am out of the well now officially, but you have Wi Fi down there.

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Make sure you get desks and dorks
dot org in your local well.

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Start it's it's going well, it
sure is, it sure is, buddy,

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h do you want to enjoy the
episode and television? That what we're

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working with today? So uh,
As I was brainstorming new things to talk

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about in terms of the sign,
it occurs to me as a writer how

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much import I place on openings and
endings. You need to capture your audience,

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and oftentimes in games you are doing
the double feature of both teaching and

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also grabbing the emotional hook. I
mean, that's really really important and so

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I started to think about what we're
formative experience for me, What are my

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favorite opening dungeons, what are my
favorite intros and games? And made a

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nice list so that we could talk
about them in terms of why these are

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so important to us and how it
informs the games that we want to make.

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Yeah, and I picked So there
are some board games as I was

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reflecting on this list that had really
great introductory moments for introductory levels. So

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for example, if a board game
says, hey tried this first scenario and

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the first scenario is really strong,
really arresting, really grabbing, I think

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that's super cool. So I picked
a couple of board games, and I

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did pick a couple of video game
game, so we got a little got

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a little mixed media going on.
So yeah, I certainly in terms of

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mixed media, I think about a
TV and movies UM that have been influential

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on storytelling and my storytelling style.
UM. And I really tried to think

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about board games that had I thought
good kind of on ramp stuff, but

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I really couldn't think of any.
But that's because I'm so particular about what

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I think works in terms of demo
and in teaching from the few different board

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game cafes that I was running.
Um, you know, I tried.

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I tried and tried to think of
anything, but I really I nothing really

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stuck out to me in terms of
stuff. So I'm really curious to think

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of to hear what board games that
you you think do stick the landing on

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that? All right, Yeah,
I'm gonna go first. Yeah, I'll

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go first. We'll start with one
of my board games. This is sort

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of a guinea at least for me. Um. I love your classic swords

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and story stuff. Obviously, Gramma
is so that you and I have bonded

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over a lot as our love of
shared sword and sorcery, and it was

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a genre that as a kid I
was really unfamiliar with and was introduced too

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through a phenomenal board game. Those
of you who have been longtime fans of

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the show will know I love hero
Quest as a kid. The introduction to

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hero Quest, that first introductory mission
is it's nothing to write home about in

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terms of like its narrative interest.
Right, It is either classic, you

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are in a dungeon, you are
fighting, there's an evil wizard. It

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literally feels like all of the same
tropes that have been done to death a

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bajillion times over, but something that
I love and something I think I need

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a little bit more of now in
media, having been a sort of outsynical

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in the last thing is it does
it with so much earnest fervor and so

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much appreciation for the tropes that it's
using that as a little kid, I

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remember thinking, oh my god,
this is the coolest thing in the world.

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And then a friend of mine was
very generous actually gifted me his original

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hero Quest set, and so I
played it with some of my friends who

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had never touched it before, and
we played the introduction set, the introduction

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scenario, and it had the same
level of gravitas that I wanted. And

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I think for me as a designer, one of the things that I always

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take from that first initial level that
I find really interesting is that you don't

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always have to do something new or
fresh or exciting, or it doesn't have

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to always be different just for difference's
sake. You can impress people if the

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quality of what you're doing is excellent, and it truly is, and I

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think if you have a certain level
of earnest appreciation for what you're doing,

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there is not an ounce of cynicism
in that opening. There is not an

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ounce of like nudge nudge, wink
wink. It is fantasy tropes for the

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sake of fantasy tropes. And I
think it instead of like maybe like playing

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it safe and doing like, oh, these are fantasy tropes, were like

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riffing on them, It's like no, they just go hog wild with it.

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And I think that's what makes it
such a great opening level for me.

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And it worked too, I think
as well. If you know your

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audience for your introduction, and this
is the thing with Her Request, right,

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this was designed to introduce eight to
ten year olds to the world of

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high fantasy, so you don't want
to overload them with too much stuff and

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nuanced, it's okay to just kind
of be the base boom fantasy stuff.

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And again, having replayed it literally, like I think last year, I

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replayed the first level of Hero Request
in its original form as intended, and

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it was still as impactful, still
as grabbing, and I think ultimately still

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as entertaining as I wanted it to
be. So that's that's one of my

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picks for some of the best introductions
in a board game. I really liked

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Your Request. Your Request is a
beloved kind of connective game between your you

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know, burgeon indie scene and what
these you know, high fantasy tropes are

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you talking about. It's from nineteen
eighty nine, I want to say.

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And so this cyticism about their own
tropes, they predates a lot of that.

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There wasn't any winking, there was
any nudgeon. I mean, that

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was the era of we will sequester
into the basement and we will play this

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game. UM. And that I
think is is why it. I I'm

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not sure the lack of cynicism was
an active choice because the idea of being

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cynical wasn't really like it yet.
It wasn't it didn't exist yet. But

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but I think that's a fabulous lesson. UM. And maybe I'm just thinking

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about it because I continue to hang
out with middle schoolers every single day now.

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UM. The power of earnestness UM. I My journey as a as

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a creative and a designer UM is
sort of a a recovering cynic It's the

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idea of incorrectly equating, um,
being pretentious with being intelligent or being exacting

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and knowing things have their time and
place. That the variety of art that

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exists in the world. World is
there for a reason, and not to

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ran on people's parade for no reason. And the true power of I love

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this thing and I wanted to exist
and not having to worry about being laughed

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at or pointed at. So taking
something into a very pure form, exploring

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it, deconstructing it, yes,
but presenting it as earnestly as possible,

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I think is unbelievably powerful. It
is. And this was something too,

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I reflected on when I went to
visit you for the last ep like for

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one of our episodes, Yeah,
when you and I were talking about Majesty,

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and I was thinking about, like
how much I genuinely enjoyed Majesty the

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Fantasy Kingdom sim and having replayed it
again, I was like, oh my

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God, like this. I like
this not because it's trying. It's not

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trying to reinvent anything. It just
takes all of these fantasy tropes into glories

206
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in them. And that was that
that level of just fantastic earnestness of like

207
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the bad guys are bad, the
good guys are good. It just I

208
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don't know, there's something so refreshing
about someone who loves what they do and

209
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is passionate about it, and there's
so much passion in that weird look game.

210
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So yeah, I think there's a
cycle. There's a cycle of presented

211
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a simple idea, than complicating it, than making it dark, including anti

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heroes, and then that becoming tired
because it's a trope in and of itself,

213
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and then cycling back to the earnestness. And I think that that's ultimately

214
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where things get reside you you you
fall where you want to in the side.

215
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Yeah, correct, Oh yeah that's
true, is your Yeah? Yeah?

216
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Yeah, So I got four,
We got four and four For this

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list, I'm sticking mostly to video
games. So when I was thinking about

218
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these experiences that I had, some
of it was what is this opening cut

219
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scene? What is it teach you
in terms of design? And the other

220
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section that I realized between the my
top four here that I placed, there

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is a strong musical component to all
of these. So I music is a

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big part of my life, but
also how I love running tables because ultimately

223
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what I'm doing is I'm trying to
create an emotional experience. And so these

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four games that I'm talking about all
have this in common is that they're deeply

225
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emotional for different reasons. And so
this first game I want to talk about

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is the opening to Hitman to Silent
Assassin. That was my favorite hit Man

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game. It's on the PS two
and PS two into PS three was a

228
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time in which, you know,
the graphics were getting vastly more complicated,

229
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games were taking a lot more time
to be made, they were much much

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more expensive, and the identity crisis
was all of a sudden struggling to try

231
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and find an adult audience. It
wasn't just kids in arcades in the eighties

232
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and nineties. They were starting to
come of age, and so there was

233
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this insecurity back to earnestness, and
insecurity about the art form. Oh,

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00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:58.240
movies are pop culture and as seen
as high art. Why can't we be

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high art? And so a lot
of these games were immediately then trying to

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mimic cinema, and for me,
that was at some at some level missing

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the point because all of a sudden, they were missing what could and couldn't

238
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be done as the medium, you
know, trying to just like blanket copy

239
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all of it. Um. I
think that the opening cut scene and the

240
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opening levels of Hitman felt so mature
to the kind of game that I was

241
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playing, UM, things like your
grand theft autos and whatever. Um,

242
00:16:29.879 --> 00:16:34.759
it's it's sophomoric satire. But the
earnestness of this story, UM, the

243
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setting, the incredible music, UM, the story you got and then then

244
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being introduced into your first little sandbox, UM was all emotionally connected to who

245
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you were. UM In Hitman you're
a clone hits um and the current generation

246
00:16:55.120 --> 00:16:57.240
of games You're Hitman one, two, and three that are all there being

247
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absolutely exploded in the complexity of their
level design. They've really come about into

248
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this new renaissance, which is so
exciting. But I think that Hitman two

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Silent Assassin really nailed it and I
cared emotion that was going on. I

250
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have a palette of music that I
continue to use for all these games,

251
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and Hitman two selet Assassin continues to
be a high benchmark to me in terms

252
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of adult storytelling, strong themes,
excellent characterization, and just really selling beat

253
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to beat to beat, the intro
not feeling there and really placing you into

254
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its world. That was both.
It hadn't reached peak cartoon. It kind

255
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of became a meme for a while. We're gonna dress up like a chicken

256
00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:41.319
and you know I'm going to stand
on the round. Yeah, exactly.

257
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Hitman two really managed to find it
stride in a huge way, and I

258
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remember feeling so respected because I hadn't
been talked down to that it was it

259
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was going for a thing. It
wasn't just trying to mimic cinema, but

260
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also it felt emotional and connected to
what I was curious about at the time.

261
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Yeah, there's a lot of I
remember playing hit Man games and checking

262
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out even the newer hit Man ones, and I'm still it's not like an

263
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intro necessarily, but I'm always really
impressed by how they approach the start of

264
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a level because you really are kind
of given that sandbox feel. So,

265
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I mean it's still a little cartoony
now, but I don't know something about

266
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being able to approach a problem in
any number of different ways, Like I

267
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don't play Hitman like nearly not only
thing I played Hitman in like he hears.

268
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But it's interesting to watch Hitman speed
runners play because each way they approach

269
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it. I don't know, when
you talk about being treated with respect as

270
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a consumer of the products, right, there's the consumer of that story,

271
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the consumer of those characters. I
yeah, Hitman does it pretty well like

272
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and then continues to do so.
I would argue, at least in some

273
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ways in terms of level design,
pure level design. This it's it's the

274
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best has ever been and which is
good news to me because some of the

275
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middle games kind of in this in
this series, I feel like dipped in

276
00:18:56.240 --> 00:18:57.960
quality. They kind of had an
identity crisis. So I'm so glad that

277
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they're better. That are better,
But I will always have a soft spot

278
00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:06.000
in my heart for Hitman two stelf
Assassin on the On the PS two,

279
00:19:06.079 --> 00:19:10.319
I think it is a stone cold
classic and is a game that still emotionally

280
00:19:10.359 --> 00:19:14.440
resonates with me very hard today in
this talking about it, Oh that's awesome.

281
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There's a couple of PS two um
honorable mention to Shadow of the Colossus,

282
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which almost made my list introductions because
you talk about emotional games from the

283
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PS two that still resonate with you, I'm like, oh man, it's

284
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like it almost you don't want to
kill those big cool things. I still

285
00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:36.039
don't you that one. I hate
that one, UM so chilling, and

286
00:19:36.079 --> 00:19:41.119
you can kill them they are just
killings are pretty nice. Um So my

287
00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:42.359
second one so I'm gonna bounce back
and forth. I'm gonna do board game,

288
00:19:42.400 --> 00:19:45.720
video game, board game, video
game. Uh So, those of

289
00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:48.799
you who are familiar to the show, and I know Graham knows this,

290
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I love me some Dragon Age.
Um and my introduction for this one is

291
00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:57.200
Dragon Age Origins. I loved the
different character openings. It was the first

292
00:19:57.200 --> 00:20:02.279
time that in a traditional RPG like
that, it felt like what you chose

293
00:20:02.680 --> 00:20:08.319
for your starting character really impacted the
story, and those reverberations continued on for

294
00:20:08.359 --> 00:20:11.920
the rest of the game. Like
I remember doing a major playthrough and being

295
00:20:11.920 --> 00:20:15.200
like, Wow, this is really
interesting and I'm bypassing some serious challenges because

296
00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:21.160
somebody from that playthrough that I had
helped in a really strange way wound up

297
00:20:21.200 --> 00:20:23.559
remembering my character and remembering that backstory. Or like, if you're the Noble

298
00:20:23.880 --> 00:20:26.400
spoilers, I guess if you're going
to all play Dragon Age, I'm sorry

299
00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:30.119
it came out like twenty years ago
at this point, like a while ago,

300
00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:33.319
but like, if you're the Noble, your family gets wiped out like

301
00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:38.759
in the first opening things and that
stuff continues on into the late game if

302
00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:45.400
you chose that as your like opening
origin status and it was interesting to see

303
00:20:45.720 --> 00:20:48.359
part of how part of what I
love about a good story is does it

304
00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:52.599
relate to my character choices. In
this case, it did relate to how

305
00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:56.200
I built my character and are those
going to have far reaching implications to the

306
00:20:56.279 --> 00:20:59.000
rest of the game. And part
of my enjoyment of dragon Age is a

307
00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:03.359
franchise at least or was going back
and trying every single different origin point because

308
00:21:03.400 --> 00:21:07.640
they were all so wildly different.
They were all really good. I really

309
00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:12.359
liked them, and they all did
different things for different characters, and like

310
00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:15.160
none of them were really saney,
which was kind of cool. Like if

311
00:21:15.200 --> 00:21:21.440
you play the Dwarf Noble, you're
basically running a dwarf and bank cartel mob

312
00:21:21.960 --> 00:21:23.519
for like the first two hours of
the game. I like, and it's

313
00:21:23.559 --> 00:21:27.039
wildly different than being like a wild
Elf, where you're like running around and

314
00:21:27.039 --> 00:21:30.359
there's like a werewolf curse that's a
flinting your people, and I'm like,

315
00:21:30.519 --> 00:21:33.799
this is such a weird it pinballs
around. But it was very, very

316
00:21:33.799 --> 00:21:37.839
good, and I remember origins continuing
to impress me. And again, part

317
00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:40.559
of the reason I came back and
did so many different playthroughs was because I

318
00:21:40.599 --> 00:21:42.279
was like, I just want to
see what happens when I make a new

319
00:21:42.359 --> 00:21:47.759
character. Those first two hours are
really really strong, so dry new Origins

320
00:21:47.759 --> 00:21:52.640
it is my second pick. Yeah, I don't love everything about Origins,

321
00:21:52.799 --> 00:22:00.880
but the opening is exceptional and special. It hasn't really ever been and done

322
00:22:00.920 --> 00:22:04.319
that way again um A lot of
as games again continue to get more expensive

323
00:22:04.440 --> 00:22:10.799
and take longer to make. Um
uh, there is this continued conversation about,

324
00:22:10.839 --> 00:22:15.039
well, if we do these open
ended design choices, then that means

325
00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:18.319
that the majority of the players won't
see all the content that we spend years

326
00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:23.960
of crunch, not seeing our families
and being underpaid in order to make um

327
00:22:25.759 --> 00:22:30.960
and um by aware you know,
has not mutated in the way that I

328
00:22:32.680 --> 00:22:34.440
wish that they had. I mean
just for me. Obviously, they're not

329
00:22:34.599 --> 00:22:37.759
calling me every day to say,
Graham, how do we make our games

330
00:22:37.799 --> 00:22:42.519
better? They're making business decisions,
and as they and the best business decisions

331
00:22:42.519 --> 00:22:49.440
either. Unfortunately, Dragon Age's Origins
Origins is so special. Many of my

332
00:22:49.519 --> 00:22:55.279
favorite games, particularly CRPGs, play
with this idea because ultimately, what are

333
00:22:55.279 --> 00:23:00.440
you trying to do? You're trying
to emulate the tabletop RPG experience and the

334
00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:07.839
variation that you're like, we're going
to your first two hours basically of the

335
00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:11.000
game are going to be completely different. You're going to play into it,

336
00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:15.920
and then they're gonna sock at you
into the main uh campaign. Um,

337
00:23:15.960 --> 00:23:21.119
it's not something that's cast off.
And then you have your you know,

338
00:23:21.279 --> 00:23:23.559
we're gonna go to four regions before
we go to the final region, and

339
00:23:23.640 --> 00:23:26.480
one of those four regions is going
to be your home, which means that

340
00:23:26.519 --> 00:23:30.480
as you go back, it feels
like less like a video game and more

341
00:23:30.599 --> 00:23:34.000
like a tabletop experience. Yeah.
Um, And they leaned away from that

342
00:23:34.039 --> 00:23:40.799
in later titles, which was really
kind of heartbreak. I've never been out.

343
00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:42.960
I mean I've seen CRPGs that have
done that, but not a game

344
00:23:44.200 --> 00:23:45.720
kind of like of not not to
this degree and not to the way that

345
00:23:45.759 --> 00:23:49.759
it's specialized. I you know,
it was such a cool idea and continues

346
00:23:49.799 --> 00:23:53.480
to be there. You know,
we've talked about other novel systems in games,

347
00:23:53.480 --> 00:24:00.599
like the Nemesis system, which is
I think cooler in prem then a

348
00:24:00.640 --> 00:24:04.400
lot of it ends up being but
origins I do think completely sticks the landing

349
00:24:04.440 --> 00:24:07.559
in a way that it feels like
a magic trick. The sheer amount of

350
00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:11.799
work that was put into it.
They didn't have to do that stuff they

351
00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:15.119
did, and yeah, I have
nothing for respect for it. And I

352
00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:18.759
think that's part of the reason why
I dislike the other games in the franchise,

353
00:24:18.799 --> 00:24:19.799
because it feels like a lot of
that storytelling and a lot of that

354
00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:23.519
work was cast off for the the
ub Soft. Let's go around a map

355
00:24:23.519 --> 00:24:29.519
and find checkpoint. I'm like,
come on, team, all right,

356
00:24:29.559 --> 00:24:32.400
what's your second one? Graham?
I'm ready? All right. So this

357
00:24:32.440 --> 00:24:36.240
is another deeply emotional experience based on
music, based of time my life.

358
00:24:37.400 --> 00:24:45.079
We are talking about my favorite Final
Fantasy, Final Fantasy seven. Final Fantasy

359
00:24:45.079 --> 00:24:52.319
seven, from its opening cinematic to
its dynamic camera, to the storytelling of

360
00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:57.039
basically the first the first section.
I mean, I could talk about all

361
00:24:57.160 --> 00:25:03.960
all of until you leave midguard,
but really I'm talking about the quiet music

362
00:25:03.279 --> 00:25:08.039
and seeing this incredible city and then
you zoom out into the sky and you

363
00:25:08.079 --> 00:25:12.359
get to see the reactor and the
camera comes barreling down onto a train.

364
00:25:12.920 --> 00:25:17.640
The train pulls into a station,
and your characters flip off that train and

365
00:25:17.720 --> 00:25:22.599
start attacking people and you have no
idea what you're playing. You're so sold,

366
00:25:22.839 --> 00:25:26.079
and the music is pounding, and
after you get through this, this

367
00:25:26.279 --> 00:25:30.480
three dimensional experience, and you're overtaken
by like, wow, this guy Cloud

368
00:25:30.599 --> 00:25:34.880
looks awesome and you like slice people
in half, and then you just get

369
00:25:34.920 --> 00:25:41.160
again just enough storytelling jess An exhibition
to keep you going. You're oh,

370
00:25:41.200 --> 00:25:47.200
I'm a cold mercenary, but these
people are taking part in some kind of

371
00:25:47.359 --> 00:25:52.039
ecological terrorism. That's interesting, what
does that mean? And then just a

372
00:25:52.039 --> 00:25:56.599
little bit of a mystery, a
solid boss fight and a timer to run

373
00:25:56.599 --> 00:26:00.359
out and you blow up a reactor
like to this day, I think it's

374
00:26:00.400 --> 00:26:07.319
one of the best introductions in gaming
RPGs and certainly Final Fantasy. As a

375
00:26:07.400 --> 00:26:15.359
younger gamer, I eight Breathe Lept
the first basically ten Final Fantasies. Everything

376
00:26:15.359 --> 00:26:19.319
after that falls off really harshly for
me. And I've talked about this,

377
00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:22.359
you know, I'm a victim of
when I was born. Why I think

378
00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:26.599
seven is so exceptional. But I
think that the emotion, the music,

379
00:26:27.079 --> 00:26:32.200
the world that it pulls you into
the way that you get character, it

380
00:26:32.279 --> 00:26:37.200
works perfectly. And his lessons that
I've learned many times when I do a

381
00:26:37.240 --> 00:26:40.240
no prep story, how much of
a hook do you get? How much

382
00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:45.039
mystery do you have How do you
combine that with the character letting you focus

383
00:26:45.079 --> 00:26:48.680
in and really fall into a story
and a world that felt like the stakes

384
00:26:48.680 --> 00:26:52.759
were real, that it mattered,
the choices were being made, and you

385
00:26:52.799 --> 00:26:56.599
were excited to see what was going
to happen next. Perfectly based, exceptional

386
00:26:56.759 --> 00:26:59.880
and it felt so fresh too,
Like I just thinking about the eco terrorist

387
00:27:00.039 --> 00:27:03.319
angle, like I remember no one
had done or tried anything like that.

388
00:27:03.400 --> 00:27:07.279
Like having the environment and the impact
of other people on the environment be such

389
00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:10.599
a big part of that story,
right, was something As a kid I

390
00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:12.960
was even like this is really different, and as an adult like I can't.

391
00:27:12.759 --> 00:27:15.480
I can't think of another piece of
media that kind of does that,

392
00:27:15.599 --> 00:27:19.000
either as well or at all in
the way their Final Fantasy seven does.

393
00:27:19.759 --> 00:27:23.079
Yeah, For me, what was
so powerful about the double edged sort of

394
00:27:23.119 --> 00:27:29.559
it was being Final Fantasy and the
game's previous to it. In the series

395
00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:33.440
six played with a lot of themes
and if you line them both up to

396
00:27:33.480 --> 00:27:36.920
together, there's there's a lot of
things that are directly taken that are copy

397
00:27:37.599 --> 00:27:41.240
carbon copies. Um. But for
me, I would rather fight this big

398
00:27:41.160 --> 00:27:48.160
corporation than a Star Wars and empire
like it's just you know, it's it's

399
00:27:48.279 --> 00:27:51.640
it's a lot less interesting to me. But the idea that the fantasy tropes

400
00:27:51.680 --> 00:27:55.000
are so strong, and then jump
in into three D. But then also

401
00:27:55.039 --> 00:28:00.000
it became this cyberpunky magic, fading
technology rising thing again and the camera lets

402
00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:03.640
you see this city, you're on
a train, all of this technology everywhere.

403
00:28:03.759 --> 00:28:07.880
So not only was it suddenly new
based on the idea that it felt

404
00:28:07.880 --> 00:28:14.440
more modern, felt more technological.
Why it was because this ecological terrorism angle

405
00:28:14.599 --> 00:28:18.480
was the reason for it. How
the light's power? Where does where's power

406
00:28:18.559 --> 00:28:21.559
come from? It's being drawn out
of the planet, which is killing it.

407
00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:25.279
And so you have both the reason
for this high tech and the reason

408
00:28:25.359 --> 00:28:27.559
for the conflicts being the same thing. Wow, yeah, it's a it's

409
00:28:27.559 --> 00:28:32.279
a beautiful thing. It really is. We honestly probably could do a whole

410
00:28:32.279 --> 00:28:36.079
episode on Final Fantasy seven and it
would it might have Yeah, it might

411
00:28:36.119 --> 00:28:41.799
have to be uncomfortably self indulgent because
it's it would be good, though,

412
00:28:41.880 --> 00:28:45.200
I don't know, because I think
his Final Fantasy seven, there are games

413
00:28:45.200 --> 00:28:48.000
like it. Final Fantasy seven I
think is one of them. Act Arena

414
00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:52.240
of Time or Major's Mask, whichever
one. Take your pick um that continued

415
00:28:52.279 --> 00:28:55.160
to stand the test of time as
like hallmarks and game design. And I

416
00:28:55.160 --> 00:28:57.599
don't think it's just because the gameplay
is super fun um. I think there's

417
00:28:57.640 --> 00:29:00.519
a lot of stuff that goes into
the creation of those games, those themes,

418
00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:04.720
the exploration of them, and what
those characters do when you combine it

419
00:29:04.799 --> 00:29:07.440
with that theme, right, that
term of like ludo narrative, like how

420
00:29:07.480 --> 00:29:11.559
does the play and the story interact
together that makes them stand out and makes

421
00:29:11.599 --> 00:29:15.079
us keep coming back to them over
and over again? Would it be a

422
00:29:15.119 --> 00:29:18.720
little indulgent? Yeah, but like
would it be an interesting case study to

423
00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:22.440
talk about, especially from a designer's
perspective? I think yes too, because

424
00:29:22.440 --> 00:29:25.759
like, why are we still talking
about Final Fantasy seven? You know,

425
00:29:26.079 --> 00:29:29.000
god n Iron? Like how long? Because I was born in nineteen eighty

426
00:29:29.000 --> 00:29:30.240
eight? Well, and because well, but it's awesome though, right,

427
00:29:30.319 --> 00:29:33.599
that's not just because you know,
I don't think you're the if you were

428
00:29:33.640 --> 00:29:37.680
the only one talking about Final Fantasy
seven generation of course I'm not the only

429
00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:41.799
person. Why it feels self indulgent
is that like saying hello Internet, have

430
00:29:41.839 --> 00:29:45.720
you thought about how Final Fantasy seven
is like pretty sweet? Uh? You

431
00:29:45.759 --> 00:29:49.480
know, I don't know if I've
added it anything to the conversation, but

432
00:29:49.599 --> 00:29:55.160
in terms of the intro specifically implanted
as themes and how it affected me emotionally,

433
00:29:55.279 --> 00:29:59.119
yes, that's something that I feel
absolutely happy talking about. Yeah,

434
00:29:59.160 --> 00:30:02.440
you know, I think maybe we
just do a classic games breakdown. I

435
00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:06.200
think that I too, could be
kind of cool. Speaking of classic games.

436
00:30:06.240 --> 00:30:08.599
I am what some people in one
of Graham's discord chats would call a

437
00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:14.680
gloom Haven stand Um I am.
I am a thousand percent of gloom Havens,

438
00:30:14.920 --> 00:30:18.519
and gloom Haven is my pick for
another way do it. And yeah,

439
00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:19.920
I thought about it, was like, oh, I can't pick glue

440
00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:25.519
Behaven. It's intro is awful.
And then I moved on and I was

441
00:30:25.559 --> 00:30:27.480
like, I wonder if Kyle will
oh I should have called my shot.

442
00:30:27.759 --> 00:30:30.680
You should have. You absolutely should
have. But yeah, I loved,

443
00:30:30.799 --> 00:30:33.920
I loved the intro for gloom Haven. Um. I love. At the

444
00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:37.200
time that I played gloom Haven,
I was looking for something different for fantasy.

445
00:30:37.519 --> 00:30:41.039
Um. I had played a lot
of fantasy. They do though they're

446
00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:48.519
iox technically am actually they are,
They're they're orcs. But um, I

447
00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:52.039
think what I was looking for was
I wanted a little bit of teeth.

448
00:30:52.519 --> 00:30:56.279
Um. I wanted to feel challenged
or in danger or horns. I guess

449
00:30:56.319 --> 00:30:59.039
if you want to go it that
way. UM. In my fantasy RPG

450
00:30:59.160 --> 00:31:03.200
and I remember a being shocked at
almost dying in the opening scenario of a

451
00:31:03.240 --> 00:31:08.000
board game. I remember being grabbed
by the combat system the second it was

452
00:31:08.079 --> 00:31:11.839
used. I thought the opening scenario
did a good job of giving you opportunities.

453
00:31:11.839 --> 00:31:15.799
I think to use a lot of
the systems without overwhelming you. And

454
00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:18.079
I think my favorite thing about it
though, is that when you know,

455
00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:22.440
when you start off Gloomhaven, you
are a rags to riches, down on

456
00:31:22.440 --> 00:31:25.960
your luck mercenary. And there's a
little line at the end of it that

457
00:31:25.960 --> 00:31:29.279
I absolutely love, where like the
bandit Gike draws his sword and Reverend's like,

458
00:31:29.279 --> 00:31:30.759
all right, well, we're gonna
take all of your money or your

459
00:31:30.799 --> 00:31:33.759
life, and then there's a little
line that says, jokes on them,

460
00:31:34.119 --> 00:31:37.000
you had money, you probably wouldn't
be here in the first place. Like,

461
00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:40.880
I don't know, I loved that
part. It immediately grabbed me,

462
00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:44.559
and I recently taught this to a
group of players who are out a local

463
00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:47.000
game store who are like, oh
my god, Gloom even looked so cool.

464
00:31:47.039 --> 00:31:48.200
We've heard all about it, and
I was like, all right,

465
00:31:48.279 --> 00:31:51.640
let's try it. And they had
never played a game like Bloomhaven before.

466
00:31:51.640 --> 00:31:55.400
They were used to dungeon and dragons. They were used to other classic fantasy

467
00:31:55.400 --> 00:31:57.440
games where like a bandit is cannon
fodder. And then one of them ran

468
00:31:57.519 --> 00:32:01.640
head first knew a group of bandits
and nearly got killed in the first two

469
00:32:01.680 --> 00:32:05.960
seconds of the thing. And he
was like, oh, oh, they're

470
00:32:05.960 --> 00:32:07.319
actually dangerous, and I was like, yeah, budding this. You know,

471
00:32:07.400 --> 00:32:09.839
when we we talked about this,
I tried to warn you guys,

472
00:32:10.039 --> 00:32:14.480
everything in this world is dangerous,
um, and you need to approach the

473
00:32:14.599 --> 00:32:19.640
children. That sounded like your teacher
voice. It was, Yeah, it

474
00:32:19.640 --> 00:32:22.799
turns out people who want to steal
you and have a bunch of swords will

475
00:32:22.920 --> 00:32:27.519
stab you for your money. Um, who wants to steal me, mister

476
00:32:27.559 --> 00:32:32.799
Ott? Someone in a well?
Uh No, I love Gloom haveven uh.

477
00:32:32.839 --> 00:32:36.400
It is a game that has continued
to enchant me. I guess,

478
00:32:36.440 --> 00:32:38.039
but I think that opening level is
a pretty strong one in terms of a

479
00:32:38.200 --> 00:32:43.240
tabletop RPG experience. That's my that's
my pick for number three is Gloom haveven

480
00:32:43.319 --> 00:32:46.960
baby. Yeah, so I want
to ask you, um I, I

481
00:32:47.000 --> 00:32:53.519
feel like gloom Haven as a whole
is you know, the strength of it.

482
00:32:53.519 --> 00:32:58.079
It's the system, it's the cards. Um So, what is it?

483
00:32:58.200 --> 00:33:00.640
I'm gonna press you. What is
it about the trow you think does

484
00:33:00.720 --> 00:33:07.599
well in in doing so? Um
I. I do have a memory of

485
00:33:07.880 --> 00:33:12.279
a going into It's like when I
was still living in Washington Heights and I

486
00:33:12.359 --> 00:33:15.640
went into a game shop and people
were like, we're gonna play Gloomhaven.

487
00:33:15.680 --> 00:33:17.400
I'm like, great, you know, let's sit down. And the guy

488
00:33:17.400 --> 00:33:22.440
who owned it turned and said,
I have played the opening scenario seven times

489
00:33:22.680 --> 00:33:27.319
and lost seven times. And I'm
like, that's how it's hard, but

490
00:33:27.359 --> 00:33:30.359
only when like hard. It's not
that hard. And we sat down and

491
00:33:30.400 --> 00:33:34.200
I beat it with them, and
they, you know, looked at me

492
00:33:34.279 --> 00:33:36.720
like I was some kind of like
gaming messiah, and I was like,

493
00:33:37.079 --> 00:33:39.640
no, you just gotta play it
a little more conservatively until the point in

494
00:33:39.640 --> 00:33:43.000
which you say, oh god,
my deck is almost ran it out,

495
00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:45.759
and then you blow through and hope
you don't make it. So I think

496
00:33:45.799 --> 00:33:51.200
in general, the game teaches you
that because it is difficult, it's it's

497
00:33:51.240 --> 00:33:55.160
more eurowe it's thinkier than your dudgeon
crawl. So what is it about the

498
00:33:55.200 --> 00:34:00.559
intro specifically you've done. You've pretty
much done a good job of explaining what

499
00:34:00.599 --> 00:34:04.680
my point's gonna be for me,
which is, oh, yeah, this

500
00:34:04.759 --> 00:34:07.319
is a game world where you're not
the big hero. You were not the

501
00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:08.519
I mean, eventually, yeah,
you get to that point, but you

502
00:34:08.559 --> 00:34:14.199
don't start off as the chosen one. You don't start off as you know

503
00:34:14.280 --> 00:34:16.719
this mythical prophesize. Although although maybe
you did at Graham, because you clearly

504
00:34:16.760 --> 00:34:21.639
you were the gaming messiah for that
group who filled seven times. It's a

505
00:34:21.760 --> 00:34:23.880
role that I I take, you
know, with much sorrow, but if

506
00:34:23.880 --> 00:34:30.840
it needs be forward, it's a
tough cross debate. But no, you're

507
00:34:30.920 --> 00:34:35.199
you already down on their luck mercenary
and you play that game. If you

508
00:34:35.199 --> 00:34:37.840
play that game like you are the
chosen one, you're gonna get killed.

509
00:34:37.039 --> 00:34:42.079
But if you play that game like
a down on your luck mercenary who pulls

510
00:34:42.119 --> 00:34:45.599
every dirty tree, and you know, the chosen one and abandoned, I

511
00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:50.039
don't think you're mutually exclusive. You're
not. But but I compare this again,

512
00:34:50.079 --> 00:34:52.719
I think I compared a lot to
dungeon Dragons or games like that,

513
00:34:52.800 --> 00:34:55.599
which, um, you know,
have you slogging through a lot of lower

514
00:34:55.639 --> 00:35:01.199
tier monsters with very little fanfare.
This world treats everything like it's dangerous and

515
00:35:01.199 --> 00:35:07.280
everything like it's deadly, and it
would be to you this basically pour down

516
00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:09.360
on their luck, cell Sword and
I loved that angle, and I thought

517
00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:13.119
that the first mission did a great
job of connecting that theme of this world,

518
00:35:13.119 --> 00:35:15.440
that this is not like we can
go save the world or you can

519
00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:21.119
do what my grip did and just
immediately just mess off to the furthest corner

520
00:35:21.119 --> 00:35:24.159
of the universe to harvest poison mushrooms
because they were really expensive and we can

521
00:35:24.199 --> 00:35:28.400
sell them fir stuff. But like
that's part of the charm of it.

522
00:35:28.880 --> 00:35:30.360
And I liked the world was like, Nope, this is really dangerous.

523
00:35:31.000 --> 00:35:35.840
And if you treat everything like it's
dangerous and you pull no punches, you

524
00:35:35.960 --> 00:35:39.079
use every dirty trick in your book, you abuse these systems to beat the

525
00:35:39.119 --> 00:35:43.039
monsters, You're going to be okay
because the monsters are going to abuse the

526
00:35:43.079 --> 00:35:45.960
systems to try to kill you.
And I liked that. I like that

527
00:35:45.000 --> 00:35:49.000
angle, and I continue to light
that angle. If I want to play

528
00:35:49.480 --> 00:35:52.920
right, I have my hero Quest
for My Earnest, my Earnest Power Fantasy,

529
00:35:52.920 --> 00:35:55.079
and I have my gloom Haven for
I want to I want to kick

530
00:35:55.119 --> 00:36:00.679
people my selling mushrooms Senulator. Yeah, that's it, that's I enjoy about

531
00:36:00.679 --> 00:36:04.239
it. Um that man, what
a what a rush opening that box up

532
00:36:04.239 --> 00:36:07.119
for the first time. Having never
played a Legacy game before, that was

533
00:36:07.159 --> 00:36:09.519
my first. That was my first
Legacy game. That was that was an

534
00:36:09.519 --> 00:36:14.559
experience. So what do you mean
I get stickers? Yeah, it was

535
00:36:14.599 --> 00:36:16.599
like one thing, what are all
these boxes like? We didn't even look

536
00:36:16.599 --> 00:36:19.599
at any of the character classes.
We didn't know what they did. We

537
00:36:19.639 --> 00:36:22.119
picked a box based on the symbol
that we thought looked cool, and we

538
00:36:22.159 --> 00:36:25.480
all agreed. We're like, this
is it you you were You're riding this

539
00:36:25.559 --> 00:36:30.480
character until they're gone, dead or
retired. And that was cool. That

540
00:36:30.519 --> 00:36:32.960
was cool too because it forced it
to try new things. So I played

541
00:36:34.039 --> 00:36:37.679
Risk Legacy in college with a group
and uh, you know, we were

542
00:36:37.719 --> 00:36:42.000
we were pretty much hooked. And
there's all these different envelopes, largely that

543
00:36:42.119 --> 00:36:45.400
have different instructions on them. Whoever
wins by x number, if you win

544
00:36:45.440 --> 00:36:46.840
by new game, if you blah
blah blah, you could be able to

545
00:36:46.840 --> 00:36:52.320
open under these different scenarios, and
at the bottom is a sheet I don't

546
00:36:52.360 --> 00:36:54.599
need everything that you pull out all
the plastic everything. There's an envelope on

547
00:36:54.639 --> 00:37:00.239
the inside the box. It says
never opened this ever, m And we

548
00:37:00.440 --> 00:37:02.199
just thought that was the greatest thing
in the world. This did you open

549
00:37:02.239 --> 00:37:07.880
it? I don't remember when I
have read things online where people like didn't

550
00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:12.719
take it, like they like burned
it in like a Viking funeral and like

551
00:37:12.840 --> 00:37:15.840
all kinds of stuff like never you
know whatever. That's Rob Davio said in

552
00:37:15.880 --> 00:37:20.480
interviews. He's like, I never
thought anyone would listen to me. Um.

553
00:37:20.760 --> 00:37:22.679
So that that's a lesson of itself
at the board game Police, like

554
00:37:22.760 --> 00:37:27.480
if you have game given you instructions
like how often will people cheat? And

555
00:37:27.480 --> 00:37:30.519
how often will people treat it like
it's scripture? You know, Yeah,

556
00:37:30.599 --> 00:37:32.719
it's I don't know. Yeah,
that was super exciting. I did love

557
00:37:32.760 --> 00:37:37.400
to when we like we opened it
up. There's a I guess a small

558
00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:40.440
spoiler for Bloomhaven. If you pull
everything out of the box. At the

559
00:37:40.480 --> 00:37:44.079
bottom of the box, there's an
envelope that just has opened this when you

560
00:37:44.119 --> 00:37:46.440
think you deserve it. Um,
I don't know if that's a direct call

561
00:37:46.480 --> 00:37:51.760
back to what I was doing.
But I remember being like, that's so

562
00:37:51.840 --> 00:37:54.119
cool, um so, and I
just don't think it's cool. All right,

563
00:37:54.239 --> 00:37:57.239
what's what's your next one? Grandm
I'm excited. But when I first

564
00:37:57.280 --> 00:38:00.199
pitched this idea to you, part
of it was like opening dungeons, intro

565
00:38:00.360 --> 00:38:06.039
dungeons. That was a big part
of it. And this was definitely part

566
00:38:06.119 --> 00:38:14.360
of the game that inspired me making
this pitch specifically because again, these are

567
00:38:14.360 --> 00:38:20.519
all games formative to my process as
growing older and developing, as what my

568
00:38:20.599 --> 00:38:24.480
taste was and what appealed to me. It didn't help also that this game

569
00:38:24.599 --> 00:38:31.559
is like really in depth and exciting, and so I made new characters for

570
00:38:31.639 --> 00:38:36.159
it over and over and over again, heard the same intro music over and

571
00:38:36.159 --> 00:38:42.599
over and over again, and then
the incredible voiceover from the villain David voiced

572
00:38:42.639 --> 00:38:45.360
by David Werner coming up to your
cell and talking to you, and then

573
00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:50.280
you're getting your NPCs, Like I
can do all of this dialogue of Balder's

574
00:38:50.320 --> 00:38:53.920
Gate two front to back from memory, doing all of the voices for all

575
00:38:53.960 --> 00:39:00.320
of the characters. Oh, the
child of Ball has awoken and and part

576
00:39:00.360 --> 00:39:05.880
of it is the fact that wake
up in a prison cell and escape out

577
00:39:06.400 --> 00:39:10.360
I think is an incredible cold open. Plenty of video games have a scene

578
00:39:10.400 --> 00:39:14.840
in the middle somewhere where you take
your stuff away and you have to get

579
00:39:14.840 --> 00:39:19.079
out, and there's really only a
couple of solutions that that happened. Okay,

580
00:39:19.119 --> 00:39:21.599
you're gonna distrack the guard, or
you need to pull them over the

581
00:39:21.599 --> 00:39:24.440
bars, or there will be a
key in your pillow. Like I feel

582
00:39:24.480 --> 00:39:28.199
like the solutions are you know,
I could count them on one hand,

583
00:39:28.440 --> 00:39:35.599
sure, but I love the wake
up in a prison try and escape scenario

584
00:39:36.480 --> 00:39:40.880
a lot. And it's probably a
result of Balder's Gate two. If you're

585
00:39:40.960 --> 00:39:47.840
trying to create party a party dynamic
and create that grittiness that like low level

586
00:39:47.920 --> 00:39:52.360
thing that you're praising in gloom Haven. Ah, we're not heroes. We

587
00:39:52.440 --> 00:39:57.559
have a lot at stake. I
think taking away stuff initially and then having

588
00:39:57.679 --> 00:40:04.320
everybody have a in game experience for
why that they are needing to survive together,

589
00:40:04.360 --> 00:40:07.320
why they need to coordinate, having
to think outside the box, but

590
00:40:07.400 --> 00:40:13.599
then also not having a single solution, I think that that immediately draws this

591
00:40:14.760 --> 00:40:22.039
incredible synergy between the role play and
combat and strategy. I want any solution

592
00:40:22.159 --> 00:40:28.000
to be discussed or create the immersion
at the table right, and Balder's Gate

593
00:40:28.039 --> 00:40:31.599
two does that. The writing is
exceptional. It's really weird and really dark.

594
00:40:32.159 --> 00:40:36.280
A lot of the stuff you find
initially it builds up the villain,

595
00:40:36.519 --> 00:40:39.920
which to me is another great part
of media when you love the villain and

596
00:40:39.960 --> 00:40:44.840
they're not at an Act three reveal, or they're a mystery villain the whole

597
00:40:44.840 --> 00:40:47.360
time, or at somebody you suspect
and you know there's a twist of the

598
00:40:47.400 --> 00:40:52.360
end. Actually, the unassuming Lamb
is in the mastermind the entire time.

599
00:40:52.960 --> 00:40:59.599
When you have an exceptional performance and
part of the game is understanding the villain

600
00:40:59.719 --> 00:41:04.320
and their motivation, you will have
a much stronger story and all of these

601
00:41:04.400 --> 00:41:08.239
lessons are part of it. Only
then, once you overcome this prison dungeon

602
00:41:08.480 --> 00:41:13.719
which is special and has such a
flavor, do you get spit out into

603
00:41:13.760 --> 00:41:16.800
the city, um sandbox, and
then you get to do all the urban

604
00:41:16.920 --> 00:41:21.440
D and D stuff. Oh,
we're going to explore all these back alleys

605
00:41:21.480 --> 00:41:23.559
and find all the politics, do
this other thing. But you feel like

606
00:41:23.599 --> 00:41:29.480
you've you've literally emerged from this this
great trial to come into the city and

607
00:41:29.800 --> 00:41:35.880
it's great. It has inspired me
many times and continues to do so incredible

608
00:41:35.960 --> 00:41:38.559
music that that intro, that intro
screen where I've made so many characters over

609
00:41:38.559 --> 00:41:43.039
and over and over again. Bad's
Gate too, No question. Absolutely,

610
00:41:43.480 --> 00:41:45.000
it's one of my favorite tropes.
Is well, I'm happy that you you

611
00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:47.880
touched on it. I love when, maybe it's not in Silia prison,

612
00:41:49.119 --> 00:41:52.880
but I love when characters have nothing
are forced to scrape by with their wits

613
00:41:52.880 --> 00:41:57.639
and what they can find, and
then emerge into what unto the greater setting.

614
00:41:57.920 --> 00:42:00.400
Right. I've done it for many
of my fantasy camp pains, many

615
00:42:00.440 --> 00:42:04.159
many, many many many of my
games, my favorite video games and board

616
00:42:04.159 --> 00:42:06.679
games have done the same thing.
But I love it. It's like one

617
00:42:06.679 --> 00:42:10.760
of the best parts. Yeah,
excitedly awake must have gotten oh blah blah,

618
00:42:10.880 --> 00:42:16.360
Juni prairies, JUNI prepares so stupid. I was thinking about that,

619
00:42:16.400 --> 00:42:20.960
actually, be like, I wonder
if this did jest there, Like,

620
00:42:20.960 --> 00:42:24.480
oh my god, yeah, I
even though nobody likes Oblivion, I think

621
00:42:24.480 --> 00:42:28.519
Oblivion's intro dudget is great, but
like, oh my god, it's the

622
00:42:28.559 --> 00:42:30.519
same thing. You're in a prison
cell. Patrick Stewart breaks you out,

623
00:42:30.760 --> 00:42:35.960
and I think that opening dudget is
one of the best, uh that all

624
00:42:36.119 --> 00:42:38.800
the Elder Scrolls ever did. Yeah, I'm a sucker for Mora Wind and

625
00:42:38.880 --> 00:42:44.719
Mora Wins weirdness, and I think
Skyrim is a walking meme at this point.

626
00:42:45.039 --> 00:42:51.639
Um, that's why the Patrick Stewart
intro and and that dungeon, Like

627
00:42:51.920 --> 00:42:54.199
I still think I feel like one
of the strongest parts of that game.

628
00:42:54.239 --> 00:42:57.519
So yeah, I would agree.
I was actually gonna be I was actually

629
00:42:57.559 --> 00:43:01.800
gonna bring up both Elder Scrolls,
both Skyrim and Um, it's not is

630
00:43:01.800 --> 00:43:06.719
it Oblivion or Moro Wind, It's
it's obliving Moro Wind Oblivion. Yeah,

631
00:43:06.760 --> 00:43:10.000
it's that's three four and five.
Because I haven't really played Daggerfall, but

632
00:43:10.159 --> 00:43:15.440
it's much before my time. But
I've watched plenty of video essays on it.

633
00:43:15.679 --> 00:43:20.360
I've watched fun and one person because
I know my new one guy who

634
00:43:20.400 --> 00:43:22.880
was a computer science dude in college
who like got dost work on this computer

635
00:43:22.960 --> 00:43:30.239
and played every Elder Schools game from
the Bigger than Great Britain and so you

636
00:43:30.280 --> 00:43:32.880
could crazy cross it, which is
nuts, but it's all boring. It

637
00:43:34.039 --> 00:43:37.400
is the thing like it's all procedurally
generated and it all looks really sane.

638
00:43:37.480 --> 00:43:43.440
So yeah, it's it's it's it's
such an interesting time in RPG development.

639
00:43:43.880 --> 00:43:47.880
Yeah, oh god, this is
I love RPGs. I love I love

640
00:43:49.000 --> 00:43:52.039
rg I know, I know that's
I'm pitching to, you know, I'm

641
00:43:52.039 --> 00:43:53.199
appreaching of the choir as it were, But like, god, it's just

642
00:43:53.280 --> 00:43:57.480
it's it's like, what kind of
mad lad just makes a game the size

643
00:43:57.480 --> 00:44:01.880
of Britain? And then like just
because why not when you had MUDs and

644
00:44:02.239 --> 00:44:08.400
other things online and it was all
RP and Ultima was kind of the this

645
00:44:08.400 --> 00:44:13.039
this level of design to those early
times of what is an immersive salmon was

646
00:44:13.039 --> 00:44:19.119
an RPG like trying to immulate what
you got as a tabletop experience. The

647
00:44:19.159 --> 00:44:22.639
idea that you have somebody who is
able to react to you in real time,

648
00:44:22.679 --> 00:44:25.599
that you're able to have all these
decisions, how do you codify that

649
00:44:25.679 --> 00:44:30.360
in this specific way? And so
what if we make a giant map that

650
00:44:30.400 --> 00:44:32.920
really feels immersive? Was a huge
swing and that's what they that's what they

651
00:44:32.960 --> 00:44:37.039
did with the tech of the time. So and I this is something I've

652
00:44:37.079 --> 00:44:39.159
said many times about game design,
especially bout games that I hate and games

653
00:44:39.159 --> 00:44:42.800
that I love, because people are
like why do you like, you know,

654
00:44:42.840 --> 00:44:45.760
you dunk on like t Dragon Society
or something, but you're like you

655
00:44:45.760 --> 00:44:51.280
don't necessarily for the exact reason that
I respect when someone goes and they take

656
00:44:51.320 --> 00:44:52.800
a huge swing. I'd rather someone
take a huge swing and make a huge

657
00:44:52.800 --> 00:44:57.639
miss and try something really interesting then
phoned in and try to do something they

658
00:44:57.679 --> 00:45:00.199
think everyone else is gonna like like
the Oreos. They didn't even try,

659
00:45:00.400 --> 00:45:04.400
like some of the Oreos. Yeah, like, come on, guys,

660
00:45:04.679 --> 00:45:07.000
all the thing is that college humor
sketch where he did you see that one

661
00:45:07.039 --> 00:45:09.320
where Brendan y Mulligan is the fake
CEO of Oreos And like at one point

662
00:45:09.400 --> 00:45:14.320
that you brought it up on that
episode. Okay, I couldn't remember straight

663
00:45:14.400 --> 00:45:16.920
face being like, literally, that's
literally the entire joke I'm gonna make for

664
00:45:16.920 --> 00:45:20.760
fifty minutes. Yeah, it's good, you guys. Can you can just

665
00:45:20.920 --> 00:45:24.159
you can just phone and just and
Jesus, he asked, here though,

666
00:45:24.199 --> 00:45:28.440
I stand by that. I love
it, cheesier, Um, noah,

667
00:45:28.480 --> 00:45:30.480
I love it. All right,
I'm ready for my last intro. All

668
00:45:30.559 --> 00:45:31.840
right, hit me. This was
something you touched on a lot. I

669
00:45:32.920 --> 00:45:36.719
m emotions and games are I don't
know, if it's just me, or

670
00:45:36.920 --> 00:45:38.480
if it was just that I was
at a point where I hadn't been feeling

671
00:45:38.480 --> 00:45:42.079
a lot of emotions when I played
my games. Um, but I played

672
00:45:42.119 --> 00:45:45.079
a game during grad school and it
just it's sort of I guess hit me

673
00:45:45.079 --> 00:45:47.719
at a really formative point. Were
there times in which you played games where

674
00:45:47.719 --> 00:45:51.800
you weren't feeling emotions? Yeah,
some of them. Some of them,

675
00:45:51.880 --> 00:45:53.000
I'm like some of them. I
think I was too, Like, I

676
00:45:53.000 --> 00:45:54.719
guess I should check in with you. No, no, no, it's

677
00:45:54.760 --> 00:45:58.000
okay. Some people are just like, oh, I felt so much when

678
00:45:58.039 --> 00:46:01.360
I played are Political Majora's Mask.
But I was like, I was seven

679
00:46:01.440 --> 00:46:05.639
at the time that I played Madora's
Mask or nine, And the sword made

680
00:46:05.639 --> 00:46:07.639
fire when I held it down,
and then I ran around and I got

681
00:46:07.639 --> 00:46:10.480
a cool mask, and I'll remember
a whole lot of No, obviously I've

682
00:46:10.519 --> 00:46:15.159
got of that world. Didn't strike
you, No, I did. Actually,

683
00:46:15.199 --> 00:46:22.960
that's uh not the skullboy. That
moon is terrifying. That move exists

684
00:46:22.159 --> 00:46:27.239
in a plane of existence that I'm
not sure I ever want to be a

685
00:46:27.239 --> 00:46:30.079
part of. But in grad school, I played a game and I think

686
00:46:30.119 --> 00:46:32.760
it was just at a really particular
point in my life where it was the

687
00:46:32.800 --> 00:46:37.880
story and what it was trying to
say resonated with me in a particular way.

688
00:46:37.920 --> 00:46:42.840
And I love love, love,
love love super giant games. UM.

689
00:46:42.880 --> 00:46:45.760
I have mentioned this, but Hades
is not my favorite super Giant game.

690
00:46:46.119 --> 00:46:52.239
UM Transistor is. And the opening
to Transistor was such a wild,

691
00:46:52.639 --> 00:46:55.519
wild introduction to that game for a
lot of different reasons. One UM,

692
00:46:57.280 --> 00:47:06.440
a jazz punk aesthetic was amazing a
wash in this soundtrack that felt wistful and

693
00:47:06.559 --> 00:47:09.079
sorrowful, but still had this sort
of gravitas and power like you talked about,

694
00:47:09.079 --> 00:47:13.079
I think it sound like a soundtrack
and really grab you, really shake

695
00:47:13.119 --> 00:47:16.280
you, really be like, yo, this is what we're doing, and

696
00:47:16.320 --> 00:47:21.400
then pulling the sword or the transistor
out of who you later find to be

697
00:47:21.440 --> 00:47:24.000
the main characters dead lover, dead
boyfriend, dead husband, whatever you want

698
00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:29.480
to call him, and his voice
coming from the sword really being the only

699
00:47:29.519 --> 00:47:32.719
sort of character dialogue as you kind
of go through these levels. It felt

700
00:47:34.559 --> 00:47:38.119
it was such a weirdly stark contrast
for a game to have such a vibrant

701
00:47:38.639 --> 00:47:45.679
soundscape and a vivid sense of visual
design and basically couple that with some of

702
00:47:45.679 --> 00:47:51.599
the most sparse character dialogue and sparse, bleak sound design that I have heard,

703
00:47:51.840 --> 00:47:54.079
and it was that juxtaposition that grabbed
me and did not let me go

704
00:47:54.400 --> 00:47:58.119
until I had finished and beaten the
game for the first time, and in

705
00:47:58.199 --> 00:48:00.000
many ways still kind of hasn't let
me know. I have played many,

706
00:48:00.039 --> 00:48:05.800
many games, and for whatever reason, that opening to Transistor continues to just

707
00:48:05.840 --> 00:48:08.119
be like, Wow, I can't
believe that that was a thing that I

708
00:48:08.159 --> 00:48:14.079
got to experience. Are you feeling
particularly melancholy? And I was, yeah,

709
00:48:14.280 --> 00:48:16.079
nothing about that at the time that
it definitely was. I think it

710
00:48:16.199 --> 00:48:21.400
was a combination of that, but
also the me being in that headspace world

711
00:48:21.440 --> 00:48:22.880
liked you this is like and this
is I was like, I was ready

712
00:48:22.920 --> 00:48:27.079
and I was ready to feel the
sad boy hours. I was. I

713
00:48:27.119 --> 00:48:30.679
was given the sad boy hours.
But again, that bleak contrast between how

714
00:48:30.760 --> 00:48:35.719
vivid and bright and beautiful the world
looked and the sparseness of that soundscape are

715
00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:40.280
is a wonderful juxtaposition. Um so
yeah, Transistors, Transistors my last one.

716
00:48:40.320 --> 00:48:44.559
I love it. I know it's
not technically in the intro, but

717
00:48:44.599 --> 00:48:47.840
there's one point where she takes her
more like a motorcycle across a bridge and

718
00:48:47.880 --> 00:48:52.119
it's that long. It's almost like
a long shot of just her riding in

719
00:48:52.159 --> 00:48:57.679
silence with the soundtrack. Um.
Yeah, very very grabbing, very arresting.

720
00:48:57.880 --> 00:49:05.039
So Transistor. But yeah, I
know I Transistor. I feel like

721
00:49:05.119 --> 00:49:08.440
it's in in this Like then,
the great thing about Super Giant games is

722
00:49:08.440 --> 00:49:13.559
that they continue to you know,
innovate and grow upon each other. Um.

723
00:49:13.599 --> 00:49:17.199
When Bastion came Advocate, everybody loved
it and it's a really solid,

724
00:49:17.239 --> 00:49:22.440
awesome game. Um. But Transistor
and Pyre really started to kind of play

725
00:49:22.519 --> 00:49:29.280
with more ideas and got really experimental
in like a really exciting way. Um

726
00:49:29.679 --> 00:49:35.559
talk about big swings. Um,
I think definitive definitively Hades is their best

727
00:49:35.639 --> 00:49:38.400
kid. Um. But and and
again I'm not I'm not having this's not

728
00:49:38.440 --> 00:49:42.960
a hot take for whatever. No
no, Um, but it's hard to

729
00:49:43.039 --> 00:49:50.039
argue that the Transistor was really special
and all of Super Giants games are really

730
00:49:50.039 --> 00:49:54.559
special. So um that affecting you
in such a strong way speaks to the

731
00:49:55.440 --> 00:49:59.800
power of their storytelling. Yeah,
and they they don't they don't ever seem

732
00:49:59.840 --> 00:50:02.039
to like deviate from that either,
Like they take big swings all the time.

733
00:50:02.159 --> 00:50:05.559
Like you said, they keep innovating. Um, I was surprised that

734
00:50:05.639 --> 00:50:08.920
Hades is getting a sequel, the
first sequel ever, but like, Hades

735
00:50:09.039 --> 00:50:15.000
is so good and they completely nailed
something like absolutely no shade for coming up

736
00:50:15.039 --> 00:50:21.360
with no play done. Uh for
a sequel to the best game they've ever

737
00:50:21.400 --> 00:50:23.239
made and one of the best games
anyone has ever made. So like,

738
00:50:23.719 --> 00:50:27.559
well, and I'm interested because it's
for that, it's Super Giant. How

739
00:50:27.599 --> 00:50:30.119
are they going to innovate on it? Because I know they're not just doing

740
00:50:30.280 --> 00:50:35.880
anything about the game. I know
nothing about Hades too. Nothing. Then

741
00:50:35.960 --> 00:50:38.679
I'll tell you one thing. I
know that, sister. That's it.

742
00:50:38.760 --> 00:50:44.519
That's all I know. You're going
from the bottom to the top right here,

743
00:50:44.519 --> 00:50:47.599
You're going to the top to the
bottom bottom. The only thing I'm

744
00:50:47.599 --> 00:50:50.480
gonna tell you, Okay, Yeah, I would say I want to know

745
00:50:50.559 --> 00:50:53.119
nothing, because I also know that
if there's one thing Super Giant does and

746
00:50:53.199 --> 00:50:57.039
does well, they're like, if
they're doing a sequel, it's because they

747
00:50:57.039 --> 00:51:00.280
think they could do something special with
it. Yeah, And I'm I'm I'm

748
00:51:00.320 --> 00:51:02.159
pumped. I'm ammed out of my
brain. I'm like, it's gonna be

749
00:51:02.239 --> 00:51:06.960
sick, it's gonna be so good. I still haven't played a bad Supergiant

750
00:51:07.000 --> 00:51:08.480
game. I don't think I ever. Will they keep their philosophy the way

751
00:51:08.480 --> 00:51:12.840
in there for sure? What is
your last one? Graham? I'm excited.

752
00:51:13.400 --> 00:51:20.280
Yeah, absolutely so um. In
terms of influence on the way that

753
00:51:20.320 --> 00:51:23.280
I've run tabletop games, like it's
no question balls Kate too. UM.

754
00:51:23.320 --> 00:51:31.559
But one of my favorite experiences as
a curator and as an evangelist for good

755
00:51:31.679 --> 00:51:36.719
media, good stories, good comic
books, good music. UM. I

756
00:51:36.880 --> 00:51:40.800
love sharing with the with people.
And that's why I love tabletop games.

757
00:51:40.840 --> 00:51:45.440
That's why I love board games and
role playing games is because they are experiential

758
00:51:45.760 --> 00:51:50.679
by design, and by placing myself
in a role where I get to say,

759
00:51:50.679 --> 00:51:53.000
hey, come over here, come
look at this thing, it means

760
00:51:53.079 --> 00:51:58.719
that I am responsible for creating that
kind of environment and I and I take

761
00:51:58.760 --> 00:52:02.159
that very seriously and it's really important
to me. This is a game that,

762
00:52:02.760 --> 00:52:07.400
probably more than any other game,
I said here and I put a

763
00:52:07.400 --> 00:52:10.480
controller in somebody's hand and I sat
them down and I didn't say anything,

764
00:52:10.519 --> 00:52:15.880
and I was like, just play. Because I think the first minute is

765
00:52:15.920 --> 00:52:19.079
exceptional. I think the second minute
is exceptional. I think the first five

766
00:52:19.119 --> 00:52:25.079
minutes, ten minutes twenty minutes thirty
minutes are all perfection, and I'm excited

767
00:52:25.400 --> 00:52:32.599
because we've broached this as well as
it's sequel, which is nowhere near as

768
00:52:32.639 --> 00:52:39.440
good, but you like more,
and that's BioShock one. BioShock ones opening

769
00:52:39.840 --> 00:52:47.079
is potentially the strongest of any video
game ever. I there's there's certain things

770
00:52:47.119 --> 00:52:52.880
designed wise that I prefer about system
Shock, particularly systems talk too but in

771
00:52:53.000 --> 00:53:00.800
terms of not wasting your time those
talkie opening sequences, and I'm not gonna

772
00:53:00.039 --> 00:53:05.199
really talk about much of anything in
any detail at all as best I can,

773
00:53:06.079 --> 00:53:09.159
just to say that the number of
excellent hits within the first five,

774
00:53:09.320 --> 00:53:15.519
ten and twenty minutes are all there, and you're the point where the opening

775
00:53:15.559 --> 00:53:19.519
cut scene is so short that more
than once, and I was very excited

776
00:53:19.519 --> 00:53:22.599
when this happened in college, when
I handed the control to a friend and

777
00:53:22.719 --> 00:53:27.400
the first time you can control it, it's so overwhelming that you just sit

778
00:53:27.480 --> 00:53:30.719
there and you're staring at the imagery. People don't realize that they can move,

779
00:53:31.360 --> 00:53:35.559
which is exciting, and then finally
a little thing will pop up that's

780
00:53:35.679 --> 00:53:37.880
you can use the left control or
move and they're like ah, immediately,

781
00:53:37.920 --> 00:53:43.000
it's just so exciting. The opening
cut scene is so short. I'm so

782
00:53:43.039 --> 00:53:47.360
excited about it every time because I
love a Lord of the Rings opening monologue.

783
00:53:47.360 --> 00:53:51.920
I'm a huge sucker for it.
Like let's talk about the war twenty

784
00:53:51.960 --> 00:53:54.400
thousand years ago, and let's do
this, and like let's get the emotion

785
00:53:54.440 --> 00:53:59.039
of Galadriel and then finally place you
in the shire. I'm a huge sucker

786
00:53:59.079 --> 00:54:04.079
for that. The idea that BioShock
gives you just this tiny little to tease

787
00:54:04.519 --> 00:54:09.079
and then this incredible opening image,
and then everything you do for the first

788
00:54:09.119 --> 00:54:16.639
hour are interesting and scary and weird
and beautiful and fascinating. It's the best

789
00:54:16.800 --> 00:54:22.000
video game intro ever made. Yeah, I don't get tired of it,

790
00:54:22.079 --> 00:54:28.119
and I think it's exceptional. Yeah. Yeah, there's a reason why plenty

791
00:54:28.159 --> 00:54:30.880
of people tattooed the dang things on
their wrist, Like I know so many

792
00:54:30.880 --> 00:54:35.960
people who have done that, just
because, like like Transistor for You and

793
00:54:36.119 --> 00:54:40.599
like F seven, BioShock hit at
a time where a lot of people hadn't

794
00:54:40.639 --> 00:54:45.519
played games like that. It was
mainstream enough it looked like a first person

795
00:54:45.599 --> 00:54:50.360
shooter but really isn't, and so
a lot of people who hadn't played games

796
00:54:50.639 --> 00:54:58.480
that philosophical or political or scary or
again taking the huge swings. It introduced

797
00:54:58.480 --> 00:55:00.599
people to this idea. But for
me, again, it's all about the

798
00:55:00.599 --> 00:55:07.480
emotion. It's all about how complicated
you can give it and have people actually

799
00:55:07.559 --> 00:55:12.280
absorb what you're doing in such a
short period of time. I'm shocked we

800
00:55:12.320 --> 00:55:16.199
haven't said the phrase master class yet
in this episode. Right now it goes

801
00:55:16.239 --> 00:55:23.360
to us. Kudos to us,
but I'm gonna break it. Yeah,

802
00:55:23.440 --> 00:55:27.159
that whole series again, that was
one that again to follow me. No,

803
00:55:27.360 --> 00:55:30.039
no, I love you stop there. I love the whole series.

804
00:55:30.159 --> 00:55:36.000
I'm one of the people who I
loved BioShock Infinite. I loved bosh is

805
00:55:36.599 --> 00:55:40.320
very bad. Wow, that's wild
to me because I loved Infinite. Um

806
00:55:40.320 --> 00:55:44.280
I thought two was the weakest out
of all of them. Um. Yeah,

807
00:55:44.320 --> 00:55:46.039
but again, big swing, it
was a different Big swing. Playing

808
00:55:46.119 --> 00:55:50.880
is a big Daddy is wild.
And then it has one of the best

809
00:55:51.000 --> 00:55:54.599
DLCs. Um of generation have not
played the DLC for it. That's my

810
00:55:54.840 --> 00:56:00.119
DLC is significantly better than the main
game. Interesting, it like it.

811
00:56:00.599 --> 00:56:04.159
It saves the game in such a
way. And Wow, I could talk

812
00:56:04.159 --> 00:56:07.440
about the difference between the main game
and the DLC a whole episode and about

813
00:56:07.440 --> 00:56:09.559
what it teaches about to sign that's
how good it is. Okay, cool

814
00:56:09.719 --> 00:56:13.639
interest all right, Well then that
means that's something that I I definitely need

815
00:56:13.679 --> 00:56:15.639
to kind of, you know,
get get into then because I loved again,

816
00:56:15.719 --> 00:56:21.159
I loved all of BioShock um and
I. But I do remember playing

817
00:56:21.239 --> 00:56:23.360
one and having a very similar experience
where I was at a friend's house and

818
00:56:23.400 --> 00:56:28.679
they said, I'm not going to
tell you anything, can you just so

819
00:56:28.880 --> 00:56:30.320
happy? And it was awesome.
It was it was sick, and I

820
00:56:30.320 --> 00:56:32.719
was sitting there going, oh my
god, like half of this is you

821
00:56:32.760 --> 00:56:37.199
could do this in a game.
I was like, what the what what

822
00:56:37.719 --> 00:56:40.840
it's it's about the third or fourth
hit. There's two or three or four

823
00:56:40.920 --> 00:56:44.320
things that all happen in a row. And I'm not going to be specific

824
00:56:44.360 --> 00:56:47.039
again because I don't want to ruin
this. Even even if this game I

825
00:56:47.079 --> 00:56:52.239
will never ruin. No spoilers for
this at all. But there's there's like

826
00:56:52.280 --> 00:56:57.320
the fourth big reveal, uh and
my friend is sitting on the couch and

827
00:56:57.480 --> 00:57:00.039
he turns to me wide eyed.
Not a bit of video game player,

828
00:57:00.440 --> 00:57:06.199
so like struggles with the first person
controls kind of and wide eyed goes this

829
00:57:06.320 --> 00:57:08.679
is just storytelling, which I feel
like you could put on the box.

830
00:57:08.840 --> 00:57:13.440
Yeah. I was so pleased that
that was his reaction. This is just

831
00:57:13.719 --> 00:57:19.360
lit, old fashioned storytelling, storytelling. I will also go one step further

832
00:57:19.400 --> 00:57:23.199
too, I think um in praise
of BioShock Infinite or not, although I

833
00:57:23.199 --> 00:57:29.519
would BioShock UM, I think the
environmental storytelling of that is just as strong

834
00:57:29.679 --> 00:57:35.760
as the as the everything like finding
the different like notes and audiologs and all

835
00:57:35.800 --> 00:57:39.079
this stuff that paints a vivid picture
of the fall of this place, UM

836
00:57:39.239 --> 00:57:46.199
and the people in it is as
starkly, starkly, starkly starkly arresting then

837
00:57:46.239 --> 00:57:49.599
as it was when I played it
like two months ago, and I was

838
00:57:49.599 --> 00:57:52.800
like, oh my god, this
is so bleak, and that's such a

839
00:57:52.800 --> 00:57:57.320
good job of sucking you into that
world. Like I remember minor characters who

840
00:57:57.440 --> 00:58:00.760
don't appear in the game at all
except an audiol I know their names,

841
00:58:00.760 --> 00:58:07.360
like it's crazy. Yeah. Environmental
storytelling really became the buzzword of a generation,

842
00:58:07.719 --> 00:58:12.239
you know, like or buzz phrase, uh, you know, just

843
00:58:12.559 --> 00:58:16.760
just below ludo narrative dissonance because people
realized, oh wow, how do I

844
00:58:16.800 --> 00:58:21.760
do these things when you have a
kind of media that is based on player

845
00:58:21.800 --> 00:58:23.760
agency, Like how do I tell
these stories without cut scenes? So it

846
00:58:23.880 --> 00:58:29.639
was audiologs became really in vogue again, this all systems shock stuff. Listening

847
00:58:29.719 --> 00:58:35.239
to other people talking, Um,
it's theres all this absive sim innovation that

848
00:58:35.360 --> 00:58:40.039
sort. It infected all these other
games through the mainstream booming success of Hioshock

849
00:58:40.119 --> 00:58:44.199
one. So, yeah, what
a game? What a game? Shouts

850
00:58:44.239 --> 00:58:49.519
Kendlov game shout outs Kenlo mean shouts
irrational. He's kind of a trash human.

851
00:58:49.559 --> 00:58:54.199
But oh no, oh yeah,
shout out to pull Pot, shout

852
00:58:54.199 --> 00:59:00.519
out to Kenn space Sty Why what
did he do? I feel like I

853
00:59:00.559 --> 00:59:06.320
can't game. People are terrible folks, you know. Oh that's sad.

854
00:59:06.400 --> 00:59:09.320
That makes me sad. Well,
hey, great game though, great game.

855
00:59:09.159 --> 00:59:15.480
Game, that's just that's just good
old fashion storytelling. Don't give.

856
00:59:15.519 --> 00:59:17.639
I don't give pull Pot of pass. He didn't write by Yeah, that's

857
00:59:17.679 --> 00:59:21.880
true. Maybe if he did.
How to get more bad? So terrible?

858
00:59:21.960 --> 00:59:24.280
I can't even make I can't even
finish that joke. Mary Mary kiss

859
00:59:24.400 --> 00:59:29.719
kill, Ken Levine, pull Pot, and Kevin Spacey, Oh god,

860
00:59:30.519 --> 00:59:40.480
might kill myself three times over.
Um, I'm supposed to do the weird

861
00:59:40.559 --> 00:59:43.480
question at the end. I know, I know, I'll I'll wait for

862
00:59:43.519 --> 00:59:45.000
your weird question, do your plug, your plug, and then I'll do

863
00:59:45.039 --> 00:59:50.440
your weird questions. Um, so
simple plug. If you've not gone after

864
00:59:50.559 --> 00:59:53.400
rain, it's still available over our
friends and ipr um. Right now the

865
00:59:53.519 --> 00:59:59.199
desks Dork's storefront is officially open.
Everything says out of stock, um because

866
00:59:59.199 --> 01:00:05.159
we're Why are you telling them?
Because it should be because it will be

867
01:00:05.199 --> 01:00:07.480
open very soon. That's what I'm
saying. If you go there, it's

868
01:00:07.519 --> 01:00:08.960
not an error. Don't worry about
it. Just keep check her back.

869
01:00:09.000 --> 01:00:13.760
I promise. I'm just excited.
It works and it looks good. Listen,

870
01:00:13.840 --> 01:00:16.320
let me let me share my excitement
the world. Let let let you

871
01:00:16.400 --> 01:00:22.320
know that to let you buy absolutely
nothing. Yeah that's true. Um,

872
01:00:22.440 --> 01:00:25.480
I don't think that works, you
know, but it's cool and it's pretty

873
01:00:25.519 --> 01:00:29.599
and I like it. Um No, but it should be getting updated very

874
01:00:29.599 --> 01:00:31.360
soon. Just okay. I know. Well. The reason I'm telling people

875
01:00:31.400 --> 01:00:34.440
is people have been looking and they're
like, hey, stuff sits out of

876
01:00:34.480 --> 01:00:37.559
stock. There's a reason. It's
the back ends almost done. Um.

877
01:00:37.559 --> 01:00:39.199
Just I wanted to share the progress
of that, which makes me really happy

878
01:00:39.239 --> 01:00:42.760
because you can go ahead and you
can get yourself a copy of Fear within

879
01:00:42.880 --> 01:00:45.239
very soon, which is cool because
we have more copies to sell. We

880
01:00:45.280 --> 01:00:50.000
bought partners. We can do that
now. Just wild to think about.

881
01:00:50.280 --> 01:00:53.199
Shout out to us, I guess
for continuing to grow at a rapid clip,

882
01:00:53.199 --> 01:01:00.400
which is really cool. Man,
Kevin Levine, I don't know if

883
01:01:00.440 --> 01:01:04.760
I want to be a peace in
the pot with him if he's a bad

884
01:01:04.880 --> 01:01:07.599
I was because I didn't know he
was a bad person. I mean,

885
01:01:07.639 --> 01:01:10.840
if you run a video game company, you're probably a bad person. Oh

886
01:01:12.000 --> 01:01:14.639
no, well, I hope you're
on a board game company. I hope

887
01:01:14.639 --> 01:01:19.039
that doesn't a I mean, you
know, the the crunch culture is not

888
01:01:19.119 --> 01:01:22.199
quite the same. Yeah, you
know that's true, especially because the only

889
01:01:22.199 --> 01:01:25.400
person who would be crunching is me, the designer of You Do your Crunches?

890
01:01:25.400 --> 01:01:30.639
Mister, I was gonna say,
but it's like us whipping myself in

891
01:01:30.679 --> 01:01:32.800
the back to keep to keep working
faster. It's like, have you ever

892
01:01:32.840 --> 01:01:37.280
seen the there's a meme? So
Panic at the Disco recently announced that they're

893
01:01:37.320 --> 01:01:42.199
retiring. But Panic at the Disco
is just brendan jury like it's just the

894
01:01:42.239 --> 01:01:45.679
one guy, and so the meme
is like him pointing at himself in the

895
01:01:45.679 --> 01:01:49.639
mirror, and it's like panic at
the disco discussing whether or not it's going

896
01:01:49.679 --> 01:01:52.239
to go on hiatus. And it's
just fun. That's what it is.

897
01:01:52.800 --> 01:01:54.079
Um. No, just you know, get get a copy aafter him my

898
01:01:54.159 --> 01:01:58.280
pr You can follow all of us
on all of our socials. Um.

899
01:01:58.400 --> 01:02:00.920
Though some support to our our man, Graham Cans. Um. It's pretty

900
01:02:00.960 --> 01:02:05.920
cool, dude, we like him. Thank you to everybody voted in the

901
01:02:05.920 --> 01:02:10.800
Annies. Uh. It closed this
week. Um Uh. Kyle and I

902
01:02:10.840 --> 01:02:15.800
are both Any nominated designers as part
of the Level one anthology, and we're

903
01:02:15.800 --> 01:02:21.000
both gonna be a gen con attending
that ceremony to see if we win.

904
01:02:21.840 --> 01:02:23.840
Um. The ENnies are open to
the public for voting, so that's kind

905
01:02:23.880 --> 01:02:28.039
of what makes them special. Um. If you voted for us, thank

906
01:02:28.039 --> 01:02:31.000
you. If you didn't vote for
us, UM, that's okay. You

907
01:02:31.039 --> 01:02:34.800
know, I wanted to vote for
the games you like. Yeah, I'm

908
01:02:34.840 --> 01:02:37.400
no inconvental about such things. You
probably voted for, you know, maybe

909
01:02:37.440 --> 01:02:43.480
the five V supplement or call cthlulhu
or you know something else. That's okay.

910
01:02:43.679 --> 01:02:46.280
You know we're coming. We're coming
in and hot when our own games

911
01:02:46.280 --> 01:02:51.840
are individually uh nominated. Next year, next year, Oh yeah, next

912
01:02:51.920 --> 01:02:52.760
year. Next year is the year, man, it's gonna happen. It's

913
01:02:52.760 --> 01:02:55.400
the year it's gonna happen. It
is. I'm excited to stay tuned to

914
01:02:55.400 --> 01:02:59.679
see if we're any winners. Yeah. Oh man, dude, being in

915
01:02:59.719 --> 01:03:01.679
anyone winner what that'd be wild.
That'd be wild to say, that would

916
01:03:01.719 --> 01:03:04.719
be cool. And they're gonna be
just got to go off the deep end,

917
01:03:04.760 --> 01:03:07.239
go all these crazy parties, like
I'll be stuck at a well,

918
01:03:07.280 --> 01:03:12.119
I'll have to make a second print
run of these golf cartons. It's gonna

919
01:03:12.159 --> 01:03:16.760
be crazy. Listen. That's why
we get to the money and the it's

920
01:03:16.800 --> 01:03:22.199
the money in the richest money in
the glory. I just imagine how much

921
01:03:22.239 --> 01:03:24.760
diet Cooke you could buy. Oh
my god, dude, just imagine.

922
01:03:24.840 --> 01:03:32.360
I'd be drowning and ascertain. Um
are you are you ready for your weird

923
01:03:32.440 --> 01:03:40.920
question? I am ready excellent?
So uh you Ken Levin? Yeah?

924
01:03:42.039 --> 01:03:47.519
Uh is there or what cryptid do
you think would make the best mall cashier?

925
01:03:50.079 --> 01:03:53.000
That's a good one, thank you. Um, let's see all right,

926
01:03:53.239 --> 01:04:00.400
So cryptic crypted would make the best
mall cashier. Well, let's see,

927
01:04:00.440 --> 01:04:04.840
just even thinking about cryptids that I
don't think or like, um unredeemably

928
01:04:04.880 --> 01:04:12.480
silly is such a short list.
Um because many cryptids uh um, like

929
01:04:12.800 --> 01:04:17.239
previously what Cyclopean was, are intensely
important. They're not just like fun spooky

930
01:04:17.239 --> 01:04:24.280
stories. Um. And then there's
ones that are un absurdly silly, like

931
01:04:24.440 --> 01:04:29.599
Nessie or the Jersey Devil or something. You know. Um. I think

932
01:04:29.719 --> 01:04:33.039
Mothman has a nice soft face.
Uh. You know I most of the

933
01:04:33.079 --> 01:04:38.639
time I've seen Mothman, Um,
he looks really hairy uh and is usually

934
01:04:38.760 --> 01:04:42.920
drawn adorably. Um. If if
you get a troop of cabra, um,

935
01:04:43.000 --> 01:04:46.360
he's gonna be sucking all of people's
products. You know you don't want

936
01:04:46.400 --> 01:04:51.559
that, no, um And uh
you know, so I think I think

937
01:04:51.599 --> 01:04:57.760
Mothman has the most like welcoming face, you know, uh, just like

938
01:04:58.079 --> 01:05:01.599
kind of an Adams fan Adams family
kind of like softness to him that I

939
01:05:01.639 --> 01:05:05.960
think that the Malgoths they're gonna love, They're gonna love, They're gonna love

940
01:05:06.000 --> 01:05:11.320
him. Man particularly worked at like
hot topic, like it'd be the most

941
01:05:11.320 --> 01:05:15.559
famous hot topic in the country.
I was gonna go with Mothman as well,

942
01:05:15.639 --> 01:05:17.159
because you can't put you can't put
a big man, big our big

943
01:05:17.159 --> 01:05:19.239
man, Bigfoot. You can't put
big you can't put a big foot in

944
01:05:19.239 --> 01:05:23.039
the corner. He's gonna disappear.
He's gonna disappear at every shift. You're

945
01:05:23.039 --> 01:05:25.599
gonna be like, Bigfoot, can
you cover me? It just like it.

946
01:05:25.760 --> 01:05:28.480
Just put the camera on him.
You know, he doesn't show up

947
01:05:28.519 --> 01:05:31.320
on the stuff. Yeah, why
do you think Mothman? Then you're gonna

948
01:05:31.360 --> 01:05:33.880
steal my answer. Not Well,
So, for one thing, I think

949
01:05:33.880 --> 01:05:38.199
people just like Mothman. I think
he's just a fun dude. He's attracted

950
01:05:38.239 --> 01:05:40.639
to bright things. I think that
makes him decent as a cashier. He's

951
01:05:40.639 --> 01:05:43.880
not gonna get too distracted because the
coins are bright and he just that defines

952
01:05:43.960 --> 01:05:45.760
distraction. He would get very distracted. He's gonna be fine, He'll be

953
01:05:45.920 --> 01:05:49.159
great. And he's kind of cuddly. I don't know every depiction of exactly

954
01:05:49.519 --> 01:05:53.480
kind of cuddly, like I feel
like you'd be welcoming. Like if Mothman

955
01:05:53.599 --> 01:05:55.480
was like, hey, do you
want to try you don't know, do

956
01:05:55.559 --> 01:05:57.800
you want to sign up for our
hot topic loyalty card. I'd like,

957
01:05:58.119 --> 01:06:00.559
yeah, buddy, I don't know
what I'm gonna I don't know what I'm

958
01:06:00.599 --> 01:06:04.119
gonna buy a lot of. Yeah, I'm definitely measured mouth man. It's

959
01:06:04.159 --> 01:06:09.760
like a gangly teenage cashier. You
know. He definitely has that energy of

960
01:06:09.800 --> 01:06:15.920
like Hillo, sir, welcome to
hot topics for sure, like really tall

961
01:06:15.960 --> 01:06:17.719
and skinny, you know, like
just grew into the body kind of mouth

962
01:06:17.760 --> 01:06:23.159
man. This is very gangly.
He's kind of hanging around like oh big

963
01:06:23.159 --> 01:06:26.920
Foot. Bigfoot is definitely that like
manager of the store who's worked there a

964
01:06:26.960 --> 01:06:29.880
little too long and is kind of
bitter, like has a suit and tie.

965
01:06:30.079 --> 01:06:32.239
That's that's big Foot. Here's here's
our here's our next, our next

966
01:06:32.280 --> 01:06:38.239
big animated hit. We're gonna have
Cryptid's like with mall jobs. We'll make

967
01:06:38.440 --> 01:06:43.199
a billion dollars from adult Swim.
You know, we'll hit all the stereotypes.

968
01:06:44.159 --> 01:06:46.360
I'm ready. I'm ready for this. I just imagine big Foot being

969
01:06:46.360 --> 01:06:51.159
like you know, they had dreams
once, really saddling. Now yeah,

970
01:06:51.360 --> 01:07:00.039
yeah, he can't work at um
like sketchers because nothing fits it. That's

971
01:07:00.079 --> 01:07:06.199
like this most sisifician nightmare keeps trying
on new shoes just like everywhere, like

972
01:07:06.480 --> 01:07:12.920
every time, every time, and
then he throws it over his shoulder and

973
01:07:12.960 --> 01:07:16.119
there's a cartoon network splat sound as
we like fast pan over to this huge

974
01:07:16.199 --> 01:07:21.000
pile of busted tennis. It's just
trying his best and he just he just

975
01:07:21.079 --> 01:07:27.400
can't. A poor guy. It's
just big foot going like a Pretzels pluts

976
01:07:27.440 --> 01:07:30.840
across the mall. Yeah, all
the Prezels have sucked by the super Cobra

977
01:07:31.440 --> 01:07:34.239
because the tuper Cobra got the pro
he sucks. He sucks all the cheese

978
01:07:34.320 --> 01:07:41.440
dust or the cheese stuff out,
like oh, Cabra has really like nasally

979
01:07:41.559 --> 01:07:45.880
vice because he keeps like sloping stuff. He drinks like a bunch of nails

980
01:07:45.880 --> 01:07:46.760
spray by accent, Like, dude, what are you doing? It's like

981
01:07:47.119 --> 01:07:49.679
us, you know the animators.
I'll do all the voices, you know.

982
01:07:51.639 --> 01:07:54.679
I mean I do know an animator
I think somewhere. I don't know

983
01:07:54.679 --> 01:07:57.920
if he's still animating or not.
Right, um, but well, I

984
01:07:58.000 --> 01:08:01.159
need to make my quick my first
billion first, because they they already took

985
01:08:01.199 --> 01:08:04.960
my Star Trek Idea, which is
the Star Trek Academy and do all the

986
01:08:05.039 --> 01:08:10.840
like kids, uh, and like
school drama in Star Trek and have a

987
01:08:10.840 --> 01:08:15.119
few legacy characters from the series as
like teachers. They're finally doing that as

988
01:08:15.119 --> 01:08:18.720
a series. Like I'm like,
that's my other billion dollar idea. Dang,

989
01:08:19.079 --> 01:08:21.119
I didn't realize that was gonna be
a series now, I kind of

990
01:08:21.319 --> 01:08:26.119
I would watch that like that might
be how you give me. It's been

991
01:08:26.199 --> 01:08:28.960
my pitch for ten years. For
ten years, I'm like, put me

992
01:08:29.000 --> 01:08:30.720
in, put me in, coach, Like, I will be the show

993
01:08:30.800 --> 01:08:35.119
runner of the Starfleet Academy TV show
and I'll bring Star Trek back in a

994
01:08:35.239 --> 01:08:39.800
quality way. That's like I love
Star Trek. That's like Young Hercules,

995
01:08:39.800 --> 01:08:45.159
the high school Hercules. Yeah yeah, yeah, that was the young whatever

996
01:08:45.359 --> 01:08:49.039
you know, Yeah, pretty little
liars. But it's it's Star Trek Academy

997
01:08:49.359 --> 01:08:55.079
and a couple older actors from you
know the shows are the professors, like

998
01:08:55.520 --> 01:09:00.279
people Love That or Gossip Girl.
Isn't that the same premise with like shows

999
01:09:00.119 --> 01:09:03.199
it's the school school dramas. Yeah, yeah, dramas. I would watch

1000
01:09:03.199 --> 01:09:08.720
Warf as a professor loved right,
my god, professor would be hysterical.

1001
01:09:08.800 --> 01:09:12.600
He's like trying to like, have
you watched the Kids and three of Picard.

1002
01:09:12.840 --> 01:09:15.479
I have not. I have not
watched season I have don't only watched

1003
01:09:15.520 --> 01:09:20.840
season three, warps in it.
Yes, it's my boy, my boy.

1004
01:09:21.479 --> 01:09:26.239
All right. So Mothman, Mothman, we've established is the best,

1005
01:09:26.760 --> 01:09:30.880
the best mall or the best mall
worker, mall cashier in general. Well,

1006
01:09:30.880 --> 01:09:32.560
folks, that has been it for
deskined works for today. Huge out

1007
01:09:32.600 --> 01:09:35.800
out to all of you for listening. If you are still listening to Graham

1008
01:09:35.800 --> 01:09:41.960
and I brattle on about the new
billion dollars cryptia, actually you should be

1009
01:09:42.000 --> 01:09:45.199
listening to that. That was awesome. Love apologize earnestness. What have we

1010
01:09:45.279 --> 01:09:50.800
learned? Mister Earnestness always will get
you out of the well every time.

1011
01:09:51.079 --> 01:09:54.279
Well, that's I know where to
look for you. Now I'm out of

1012
01:09:54.279 --> 01:09:58.359
the well on good behavior at the
very waist. Okay, well based cryptids,

1013
01:09:58.359 --> 01:10:00.520
I'm gonna well throw you in there
with the well is cryptids with the

1014
01:10:00.600 --> 01:10:03.119
ring girl. Oh yeah, I
guess, yeah, she does come out

1015
01:10:03.119 --> 01:10:06.319
of will she crypted? We'll count
ring you as a crypted Is that her

1016
01:10:06.399 --> 01:10:11.840
name? Ghost? Yeah? Ghostcrypted? She can date maf Man. That'll

1017
01:10:11.880 --> 01:10:15.119
be fine. Oh yeah, heck
yeah, you gotta have a Japanese ghost

1018
01:10:15.199 --> 01:10:18.119
girl as a as a mall goth. Yeah, you absolutely do. A

1019
01:10:18.159 --> 01:10:21.720
really offered teenage relationship. He's attracted
to like bright lights and she always comes

1020
01:10:21.720 --> 01:10:27.119
out of the bright TV screen like
it's it's perfect. Billion dollars, We're

1021
01:10:27.119 --> 01:10:30.600
gonna make billion dollars. I love
it all right, folks, thank you

1022
01:10:30.680 --> 01:10:32.800
all again so much for listening.
I've been Kyle out for Desk and Dorks.

1023
01:10:33.199 --> 01:10:36.199
I've been Graham Dance and a big
old Zippanyes Apps out. All of

1024
01:10:36.199 --> 01:10:39.640
you. Stay boggy, my friends,