WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.040 --> 00:00:12.039 Welcome to the Seafood Matters Podcast. I'm your host Jim Cowie. In each 2 00:00:12.039 --> 00:00:18.079 episode will dive into the world of seafood and by chatting with fishermen, fishery 3 00:00:18.160 --> 00:00:23.679 scientists, and seafood chefs, will highlight the importance of seafood in our daily 4 00:00:23.760 --> 00:00:30.160 lives, economy, and environment. Whether you catch your own seafood, love 5 00:00:30.239 --> 00:00:34.560 cooking it, or want to learn more about where your fish comes from, 6 00:00:35.079 --> 00:00:40.799 you'll find it all here on the Seafood Matters Podcast. Today, we have 7 00:00:40.840 --> 00:00:46.200 the privilege of hosting doctor Mark Dickie, colis the Chair of the Advisory Committee 8 00:00:46.240 --> 00:00:52.840 of the International Council for the Exploration of the Sea, ices to discuss fishery's 9 00:00:52.880 --> 00:01:00.799 management and stock assessment, shedding light on how quotas are calculated, explains how 10 00:01:00.920 --> 00:01:07.159 seasonality is factored into the science of stock assessment. We also discuss how unreported 11 00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:14.719 and unregulated catches are accounted for in the realms of fishery science. Join us 12 00:01:14.799 --> 00:01:19.079 as we journey through the geography of c areas, delving into the factors that 13 00:01:19.280 --> 00:01:33.680 influence quota assessments for different species. I sees the International Council for the Expiration 14 00:01:33.879 --> 00:01:40.959 the Sea carries out about two hundred bits of advice that we give to governments, 15 00:01:41.200 --> 00:01:45.560 and that's mostly based on stock assessments, about one hundred of the bits 16 00:01:45.560 --> 00:01:51.480 of advice, and the stock assessments look at the information, the data that 17 00:01:51.599 --> 00:01:57.319 comes from fishing industry and also from surveys and puts it all together and we 18 00:01:57.400 --> 00:02:04.200 look at how quickly the fish are dying, and we look at the general 19 00:02:04.400 --> 00:02:10.199 number of fish that are in the in the system as a whole. The 20 00:02:10.240 --> 00:02:15.560 other one hundred or so we actually use what we call data limited approaches, 21 00:02:15.599 --> 00:02:20.039 which aren't really stock assessments in terms of the old fashioned type, but they're 22 00:02:20.080 --> 00:02:25.840 based on what trends can we detect from things like survey information alone rather than 23 00:02:27.120 --> 00:02:32.360 using the catches as well. And hope do you go about that the vessels 24 00:02:32.520 --> 00:02:38.280 at sea or dear are you on board fishing board? Personally myself, I'm 25 00:02:38.360 --> 00:02:46.680 extremely land based. My job is now to work and oversee the entire system 26 00:02:46.719 --> 00:02:51.080 which produces the two hundred and forty pieces of annual advice that come through. 27 00:02:51.560 --> 00:02:58.000 But the network as a whole is over three thousand scientists working with fishing industry 28 00:02:58.199 --> 00:03:04.439 and working with institutes to gather all the information, data and the catch statistics 29 00:03:04.840 --> 00:03:14.759 and other relevant things such as plankton and TV service. Could you give us 30 00:03:14.759 --> 00:03:17.520 an example of some of those two hundred and fifty pieces of annual advice? 31 00:03:17.560 --> 00:03:23.599 What an earth is that? What on earth is that is? It's the 32 00:03:23.639 --> 00:03:29.520 classic ones are, for instance, once a year for northern shelf cod we 33 00:03:29.960 --> 00:03:34.120 give the advice to Norway, UK and EU, which feeds into all their 34 00:03:34.120 --> 00:03:39.280 different policies. Another one might be for such as spur Dog, which is 35 00:03:39.319 --> 00:03:44.599 a bit data limited, and that feeds into all of the organizations in the 36 00:03:44.599 --> 00:03:51.159 Northeast Atlantic because they're so widespread. Another piece of advice could be the bycatch 37 00:03:51.520 --> 00:03:55.639 of dolphins in the Bay of Biscayale the Baltic Sea, by fishing industry and 38 00:03:57.479 --> 00:04:06.280 other organizations and other activities that are ongoing. So it's it's a real mix 39 00:04:06.360 --> 00:04:12.319 of stuff that comes through. But about about two hundred of the two hundred 40 00:04:12.319 --> 00:04:17.040 and forty focus very much on what we call the fishing opportunities advice. And 41 00:04:17.079 --> 00:04:23.759 you're talking about in a global perspective or a European I'm talking North Atlantic, 42 00:04:23.920 --> 00:04:29.800 Northeast Atlantic. The icy's advisory area goes from the Baltic Sea to the Arctic 43 00:04:29.959 --> 00:04:33.279 to the assorb and in the case of salmon, all and eel all the 44 00:04:33.319 --> 00:04:40.000 way over to the USA and Canadian coast and certainly around Greenland as well. 45 00:04:41.879 --> 00:04:48.519 Yes, it's as in market, I thing that I often find fisherman like, 46 00:04:51.160 --> 00:05:00.439 it's refraser. Fishermen tell me that it confuses me, and I just 47 00:05:00.480 --> 00:05:04.279 wonder how they handle it in their log when they're logging it. But when 48 00:05:04.279 --> 00:05:10.839 you're seeing the North Atlantic, like a boat's fishing at rocal, some species 49 00:05:11.639 --> 00:05:15.959 can if they just say that to me. Let's say we're out in the 50 00:05:15.639 --> 00:05:20.560 We're out on rocal at Rocal on a fishing boat. We just hauled our 51 00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:30.319 net. We have multispecies in the net, and when it's coming to the 52 00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:38.079 if there were, say example, monkfish and cord and haddock in the same 53 00:05:38.560 --> 00:05:43.000 net in the same fishing area at the same time, and yet they have 54 00:05:43.079 --> 00:05:47.120 to be recorded differently, one will maybe be west of Scotland and another would 55 00:05:47.160 --> 00:05:57.240 be roccal. Yeah, that's based on our understanding of the biology of those 56 00:05:57.360 --> 00:06:00.000 organisms, where the fish are likely, how much which they are going to 57 00:06:00.120 --> 00:06:05.560 migrate, and also how they interbreed. So, for instance, in the 58 00:06:05.600 --> 00:06:11.560 North Atlantic, all of the eel are one stock and yet all of the 59 00:06:11.600 --> 00:06:16.680 salmon come from different rivers. And in the case of for instance, hake 60 00:06:17.040 --> 00:06:23.680 and blue whiting, we're assuming there's one large, biologically distinct stock across the 61 00:06:23.720 --> 00:06:28.959 whole area. And in the case of some of the flatfish, for instance, 62 00:06:29.279 --> 00:06:33.040 we're assuming there's a lot less movement and they're much more associated with specific 63 00:06:33.079 --> 00:06:38.800 areas, so you will catch them in your nets mixed together. But actually 64 00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:43.759 the life histories can be quite different of those organisms, and that's why they 65 00:06:43.800 --> 00:06:46.959 come out in advice by stocks. It is a weakness in our system. 66 00:06:47.000 --> 00:06:53.560 You're right in highlighting that, because actually what fisheries management is trying to do 67 00:06:53.680 --> 00:06:59.240 is manage fisheries. We don't manage fish stocks, and yet we give advice 68 00:06:59.319 --> 00:07:03.439 on the basis of fish stocks, and that is a real conundrum for us. 69 00:07:03.560 --> 00:07:10.040 It's that we need to move to a system where the fleets and the 70 00:07:10.120 --> 00:07:16.240 gears are managed rather than those stocks themselves. I'd like to ask you how 71 00:07:16.800 --> 00:07:24.279 scientists determine the territorial history of a lemon sool or a monk fish. Which 72 00:07:24.360 --> 00:07:30.680 part of the fish tells you where it's from. Well, we're assuming that 73 00:07:30.920 --> 00:07:35.639 it's in a place because that's well it's caught somewhere where it should be. 74 00:07:38.680 --> 00:07:43.920 These things do change, like mackerel running off to Iceland and Greenland, but 75 00:07:44.439 --> 00:07:50.319 generally we look at overall this goes back to where the fissuer is begun and 76 00:07:50.360 --> 00:07:55.600 how the stock structure was built up. In two thousand and nine I published 77 00:07:55.600 --> 00:08:01.720 a paper on the genetics structure of stocks in the North atlandetic with the chap 78 00:08:01.759 --> 00:08:09.639 called Reese, and from that we showed that historically the original stocks were based 79 00:08:09.680 --> 00:08:15.879 on the catch statistics, and then as the biology became better and better known, 80 00:08:16.360 --> 00:08:22.639 we managed to adapt those labels of stocks to those life histories. So 81 00:08:22.279 --> 00:08:28.639 we know a really good local fish is a dab. A dab hardly moves 82 00:08:28.639 --> 00:08:31.800 at all, and if you put a dab next to a place, they 83 00:08:31.879 --> 00:08:35.879 look quite similar, but place move a huge amount. Something a bit similar 84 00:08:35.919 --> 00:08:41.840 with whiting and cod move a huge amount. From the biology, we assume 85 00:08:41.960 --> 00:08:46.519 that the whiting don't move as much as the cod. So those are the 86 00:08:46.559 --> 00:08:52.399 things that we're taking into account in those situations. And now in the last 87 00:08:52.440 --> 00:08:56.679 five to ten years we have a large number of genetic studies going on. 88 00:08:56.399 --> 00:09:03.200 The Pelagic industry have paid for a huge amount of work on horsemackerel, and 89 00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:07.039 there's ongoing work on the herring stock structure across from the Baltic all the way 90 00:09:07.080 --> 00:09:13.399 over to Iceland. So there's a lot of work going on to try and 91 00:09:13.759 --> 00:09:20.399 confirm or disprove these stock structures. Certainly at ices for the last fifteen years 92 00:09:20.919 --> 00:09:24.679 with the United Kingdom and with the EU, we're pushing very hard that the 93 00:09:24.759 --> 00:09:30.480 advice needs to be what we call more mixed fissure is based. And that's 94 00:09:30.559 --> 00:09:35.240 because, as you well know, if you have a lot of haddock in 95 00:09:35.279 --> 00:09:39.080 the North Sea and you have a limitation caused by the cod, you're not 96 00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:46.120 going to give the right management advice based on only cod when you have a 97 00:09:46.240 --> 00:09:52.080 need to catch haddock as well. So what went wrong is we became focused 98 00:09:52.159 --> 00:09:58.240 quite heavily on assuming that the system is fixed and the system can be managed 99 00:09:58.279 --> 00:10:07.000 by only trying to to manage each individual fish stock through some specific lever of 100 00:10:07.080 --> 00:10:11.519 fisheries management, and that can't work because almost all of our fisheriesm mix fisheries, 101 00:10:11.080 --> 00:10:16.279 and all of our fisheries have impacts on the ecosystem and benefits from the 102 00:10:16.320 --> 00:10:22.559 ecosystem, and there's no way in a single stock approach that we can really 103 00:10:24.519 --> 00:10:28.519 move forward, and certainly with climate change that's going to get eaten trickier. 104 00:10:30.159 --> 00:10:35.480 I mean the spread of hake. No one has that sort of on their 105 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:39.759 radar fifteen twenty years ago, did they, that you're going to have so 106 00:10:39.840 --> 00:10:46.559 much hake coming around Scotland. So all of those things are an assumption that 107 00:10:46.639 --> 00:10:50.279 everything in the system is fixed. And it's not. Regarding your comment there 108 00:10:50.279 --> 00:10:56.120 about climate change the way you just said that, you've almost suggested climate change 109 00:10:56.120 --> 00:11:00.559 is something that's just started, that there's always been climate change. Yeah, 110 00:11:00.600 --> 00:11:05.000 but these temperature increases are really quite radical that we're seeing now. I mean, 111 00:11:05.000 --> 00:11:09.200 we'd just been through twenty twenty three with this rampant heat wave across the 112 00:11:09.240 --> 00:11:13.200 North Atlantic and we see it in the planktern, we see it in the 113 00:11:13.240 --> 00:11:20.960 fish. That these are unprecedented changes. Don't get confused though, I see 114 00:11:20.960 --> 00:11:26.399 a lot of people saying that the arrival of bluefin tuna is due to climate 115 00:11:26.480 --> 00:11:31.000 change. But blue in tuna have been around these the islands of the United 116 00:11:31.080 --> 00:11:35.440 Kingdom for centuries and in fact they come and go the whole time. So 117 00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:41.720 the heating of the water would help the tuna. But we've had periods in 118 00:11:41.759 --> 00:11:43.919 the nineteen fifties, in the nineteen thirties when there were lots of blof in 119 00:11:43.960 --> 00:11:52.279 tuna around. Yeah, I agree. I've thought it has been my thought 120 00:11:54.559 --> 00:12:01.799 Mark that when you see there about multi species, I often think that our 121 00:12:01.840 --> 00:12:07.159 own Scotland did particularly. But maybe we'll say the UK must be one of 122 00:12:07.200 --> 00:12:13.679 the biggest multi species fisheries in the world. I've actually heard you say that 123 00:12:13.799 --> 00:12:18.679 before, Jim, and I'm not sure that's true, nor am I, 124 00:12:18.120 --> 00:12:24.679 because because fishermen in the Mediterranean would be a ghas to hear you say that, 125 00:12:24.279 --> 00:12:31.679 and the and in the Caribbean and Hawaii they really are exceptionally multi species. 126 00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:37.759 We are multi species and have nicked fisheries, but when we're not quite 127 00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:43.639 in the same league as the med or the Caribbean, or Hawaii or some 128 00:12:43.840 --> 00:12:48.519 parts of South Asia. The professhermen in the Caribbean referred to the North Atlantic 129 00:12:48.559 --> 00:12:52.840 as a dead grace fishing area compared to what's available in the North Pacific and 130 00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:58.080 in the Caribbean. It's it's they feel they've been graced with the law gods 131 00:12:58.240 --> 00:13:03.840 with what's a bell to them here compared to what the perceived happens up north, 132 00:13:03.919 --> 00:13:07.600 and if you take the cellular organisms all the way through to the actual 133 00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:13.120 fish, I think you'll find that it's in quite a number of degrees more 134 00:13:13.360 --> 00:13:16.679 in the warmer waters compared to the North Atlantic. Would you agree with that 135 00:13:16.759 --> 00:13:20.200 mark or do you think that it's something else. Am I perceiving this wrong? 136 00:13:20.840 --> 00:13:26.039 As the Caribbean abundant compared to the North Atlantic? Yeah? Yeah, 137 00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:31.039 there's more species that are available to fish in those kind of regions. What 138 00:13:31.080 --> 00:13:35.799 we're lucky to have in the northern whether that be New Zealand and Chile or 139 00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:41.919 up in the North Atlantic, we have extremely high biomass single species which are 140 00:13:41.960 --> 00:13:46.960 there which we can utilize and work with. But that's not to deny that 141 00:13:48.200 --> 00:13:54.279 many of our bottom troll fisheries and others are very mixed and do take a 142 00:13:54.440 --> 00:14:01.879 large range of species which should be celebrated. I'm still not going away completely 143 00:14:01.960 --> 00:14:07.600 in my view, because I yes, I've been in the Mediterranean and countries 144 00:14:07.679 --> 00:14:18.360 like that, but maybe what I think more you'll see local fishing close and 145 00:14:18.519 --> 00:14:24.320 sure, and they're getting very small fish for their buya bases and sprats and 146 00:14:26.679 --> 00:14:31.159 bokaro needs all that type of thing. But to get to get so many 147 00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:41.240 mature species of different species fully mature. I don't often see that many places 148 00:14:41.840 --> 00:14:48.399 well in the med The challenge there is they're fishing too hard and not letting 149 00:14:48.399 --> 00:14:52.080 those fish get mature. If they were unfished, you would get much better 150 00:14:52.159 --> 00:14:58.039 yields and much more mature fish there. So I don't think that's an indication 151 00:14:58.200 --> 00:15:03.080 of ecological or biolog difference, but it's an indication that the fishing pressure is 152 00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:11.919 too high and that results in this this paucity of larger, more mature fish. 153 00:15:11.960 --> 00:15:16.720 I think because those small fish have to come from somewhere, so there 154 00:15:16.720 --> 00:15:22.960 have to be some mature fish there. Mark going on to the proposal for 155 00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:31.679 cod, your ices are suggesting a seventeen percent reduction, and I think it's 156 00:15:31.720 --> 00:15:39.519 the North Sea and the concern with a lot of fishermen. It's a sixty 157 00:15:39.559 --> 00:15:46.320 percent, sixty three percent increase last year, seventeen percent dropped this year. 158 00:15:46.919 --> 00:15:56.519 They don't ever see that volatility, and the problem they felt last year was 159 00:15:56.639 --> 00:16:00.519 sixty three percent. Sounds good, but it's a going from such a law 160 00:16:03.080 --> 00:16:08.000 point as sixty eight percent of nothing. There's nothing type of thing and no 161 00:16:08.240 --> 00:16:22.519 do it's what's your feelings on that well, the case of cod is quite 162 00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:29.399 a challenging one for fishers, for the scientists and for the managers as well. 163 00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:37.159 We have shown scientifically that in fact, the whole structure of how we 164 00:16:37.159 --> 00:16:44.879 were addressing cod around the British Isles was incorrect, in that there was no 165 00:16:44.960 --> 00:16:48.559 such thing as the North Sea cod stock and there was no such thing as 166 00:16:48.600 --> 00:16:51.840 the West of Scotland stock. There're one stock that comes and goes, that 167 00:16:51.919 --> 00:16:57.840 moves in between. So we went through a multi year I think it's over 168 00:16:59.039 --> 00:17:03.840 four year process and that also involved a number of workshops with the fishing industry 169 00:17:04.279 --> 00:17:10.960 in twenty twenty two, in twenty twenty three, working with Mike Park and 170 00:17:11.079 --> 00:17:18.119 others to try and look at how the fisherman's information feeds into what was to 171 00:17:18.160 --> 00:17:25.240 become the brand new stock assessment for what we're calling Northern Shelf cod. Now, 172 00:17:26.039 --> 00:17:29.759 our problem is that we now have a brand new stock assessment and that 173 00:17:29.799 --> 00:17:34.240 does result involvativity, and we also have a very fixed management system, and 174 00:17:34.839 --> 00:17:41.400 our new stock assessment doesn't feed well into the existing management system because it existing 175 00:17:41.440 --> 00:17:48.799 management system is still assuming that there's Western Scotland and there's still north Sea and 176 00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:53.319 the Skagarat, Categat and the Southern English Channel Earned English Channel are not mixing, 177 00:17:55.039 --> 00:17:57.480 and that gets rather tricky for us all when we try and look for 178 00:17:57.559 --> 00:18:04.319 solutions. So I'm not going to in any way say that the advice for 179 00:18:04.920 --> 00:18:18.480 less cod to be taken is in any way wrong from our point of view. 180 00:18:18.880 --> 00:18:25.000 What we're struggling with is that the management system can't as yet find a 181 00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:30.079 solution to deal with the new way that the evidence is coming through, and 182 00:18:30.279 --> 00:18:36.400 it's very difficult. And this is a regular feature. We know that individuals 183 00:18:36.440 --> 00:18:42.359 in different parts of different seas see dynamics which are different from the overall population 184 00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:47.920 as a whole. And the Shetland cod is a really really good example. 185 00:18:48.599 --> 00:18:53.720 Yes, there are large catches of cord around Shetland, but overall we're seeing 186 00:18:53.880 --> 00:19:00.359 a real paucity of cod in other parts of an area where we think we 187 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:08.079 know the cod are mixing and integrating together. It would appear that northern quote 188 00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:14.039 has been offset against southern quota. Is there any way you can see to 189 00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:18.039 rectify the disparities between the management and what the fishing boats are actually experiencing. 190 00:19:19.880 --> 00:19:25.000 That question is a question for the managers. I'm afraid and they need to 191 00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:27.880 work with fishers and with scientists to find the solution. It's not the job 192 00:19:27.880 --> 00:19:34.759 of ICs in any way to propose management, to propose management, or to 193 00:19:34.920 --> 00:19:44.839 propose solutions that are not coming from the people impacted and affected and managed fishermen 194 00:19:44.880 --> 00:19:52.519 our own Shedland feel it's not that very accurate as far as the quote is 195 00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:59.880 concerned, because there's abundance of cord our own Shetland, and that there are 196 00:20:00.640 --> 00:20:08.759 been cut because there's layers about the southern part. What about cut in the 197 00:20:10.599 --> 00:20:18.079 separate in it so that there are quotas for different areas. This touches a 198 00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:26.400 bit on the seasonality of this of the populations, because if you have cod 199 00:20:26.480 --> 00:20:30.799 which are caught in one season in one area but moving around another and we 200 00:20:30.920 --> 00:20:36.519 know that the cod populations are distinct at spawning time, but if you have 201 00:20:36.599 --> 00:20:41.000 cod which are moving around to the other areas and being impacted by fisheries there, 202 00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:45.400 then that does cause a challenge in terms of how do you manage it. 203 00:20:45.920 --> 00:20:52.359 But I think you touch on a really important point that it's crucial that 204 00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:56.720 management is effective and it works with the fishers and with the scientists and all 205 00:20:56.759 --> 00:21:03.240 the other knowledge providers. To ensure that the management objectives are met. And 206 00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:07.200 the management objectives are very clearly and I'm going to use that horrible phrase maximum 207 00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:11.640 sustainable yield. So that is about maximizing catches. And if you have a 208 00:21:11.720 --> 00:21:17.799 local problem in that you have a lot of fish, but it's in a 209 00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:22.920 larger stock where we're saying that there aren't enough fish, You've got to find 210 00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:26.920 management solutions. And that's where we need innovation, and that's where we need 211 00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:33.440 communication and conversations between scientists, between fishes, between managers because as you said, 212 00:21:33.599 --> 00:21:40.319 this currently is very very difficult, especially for those who see catch potential 213 00:21:40.359 --> 00:21:51.359 catch that they can't utilize. Let me give you a cord mark from people 214 00:21:51.400 --> 00:21:59.279 that were you mentioned earlier, make Park. So it obviously shuws there's a 215 00:21:59.319 --> 00:22:08.759 breakdown in the between the managers and whatnot and yourselves in Northern Fishing Alliance. 216 00:22:08.839 --> 00:22:15.440 As you know, it is concerning the Northern Fisher Alliance members that ICES has 217 00:22:15.480 --> 00:22:22.920 appeared to adopt the role of managers, which is clearly not their function. 218 00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:30.039 The role of ICES to provide advice rather than to determine management measures to reduce 219 00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:40.279 the risk to stocks. Do you know what I think that statement I agree 220 00:22:40.319 --> 00:22:42.640 with. It's not our job to be managers, it's our job to provide 221 00:22:42.680 --> 00:22:49.440 the evidence and that indication. That statement shows that we have a problem, 222 00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:56.720 and the problem is that we're not finding ways together to find a way to 223 00:22:56.799 --> 00:23:02.839 exploit the stocks in the right way, particularly the cod. So we ran 224 00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:10.960 the workshop with the with all the well not all, but representatives of codfishers 225 00:23:11.359 --> 00:23:15.680 in twenty twenty two and twenty twenty three. We then took that information into 226 00:23:15.079 --> 00:23:21.079 our new stock assessment approach and then, unfortunately, we found that it was 227 00:23:21.160 --> 00:23:27.119 very difficult to apply that information into the current system. And the current system 228 00:23:27.240 --> 00:23:33.440 is based on a framework that we have agreed with managers overall, whether that 229 00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:38.559 be the UK or Norway or the EU, and that's our framework, and 230 00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:48.240 we work very hard to try and adapt to this framework that we have published 231 00:23:48.279 --> 00:23:52.599 and all of the people that pay for our advice agree to. And yet 232 00:23:52.960 --> 00:23:59.839 we've ended up in the situation where there are some people rightly complaining that they 233 00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:07.000 cannot utilize catch they see because the stock is considered much broader than those local 234 00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:12.400 areas. Now that was quite a waffly answer, but it is about having 235 00:24:12.519 --> 00:24:18.640 flexibility in management somehow to deal with the knowledge and also the expectations of the 236 00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:29.200 industry. Do you feel that with what connection you've heard recently and going on 237 00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:40.319 to the cod Sympausium, do you feel that that's been a success. Well, 238 00:24:40.839 --> 00:24:45.799 certainly, the goodwill and the conversation that led to what we call the 239 00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:56.079 Northern Shelf Cod Benchmark process we view as a success because we we found it 240 00:24:56.119 --> 00:25:03.119 extremely useful to take the information from the fish industry and also to hear their 241 00:25:03.200 --> 00:25:10.680 experiences and bring that together with the quantitative science that we're doing as well. 242 00:25:11.359 --> 00:25:18.880 What isn't a success is the way in which our advice is then used in 243 00:25:18.920 --> 00:25:23.359 the system, which is so constraining, and that's the real challenge. I 244 00:25:23.400 --> 00:25:27.119 think, where do we go? What's that? How do we take that 245 00:25:27.240 --> 00:25:36.559 forward? You have to take that forward by having a dialogue with the managers, 246 00:25:36.559 --> 00:25:41.200 the fishers and the scientists. And unfortunately it's complicated because you've got Norway, 247 00:25:41.240 --> 00:25:45.160 you've got the UK, and you've got the EU now all with fishing 248 00:25:45.279 --> 00:25:53.400 nation rights, all of them trying to ensure that their fishermen get the maximum 249 00:25:53.480 --> 00:25:57.640 that they can based on their national positions. So they come in with a 250 00:25:57.720 --> 00:26:03.319 negotiation stant that we cannot in any way lose catch for our fishers. So 251 00:26:03.359 --> 00:26:11.079 it's already setting up a combative environment. But the only way to move forward 252 00:26:11.319 --> 00:26:15.240 is to say, we need to address how to manage considering that this is 253 00:26:15.319 --> 00:26:21.680 now considered a large stock, how do we manage it best in terms of 254 00:26:21.720 --> 00:26:29.960 the objectives, the international objectives of MSY and the precautionary approach. We recently 255 00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:37.799 spoke with doctor Michael Kaiser from Harriet Watt University and we got into the complexities 256 00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:45.519 of you basing your findings on scientific data and then been asked to build in 257 00:26:45.559 --> 00:26:52.799 the anecdotal experiences of fishermen. He suggested that the development of visual technologies cameras 258 00:26:52.960 --> 00:26:57.799 on every boat, above the nets and the holdrooms, might decrease that distance 259 00:26:57.880 --> 00:27:04.759 between anecdo fishermen experience and scientific How do you foresee the application of technology help 260 00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:11.640 in the situation? I think technology will create more data. Yeah, that's 261 00:27:12.039 --> 00:27:18.640 perfectly fine. But what technology doesn't do is bring together the experiences of each 262 00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:26.200 individual fisher. If someone is in one place and sees and feels and remembers 263 00:27:26.319 --> 00:27:32.000 something in the past that isn't picked up by technology. So improving the databases, 264 00:27:32.160 --> 00:27:37.079 improving the amount of data flowing into those helps all of us in terms 265 00:27:37.079 --> 00:27:41.440 of the quantitative science. But what that doesn't do is help deal with the 266 00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:48.240 values, with the experiences and the feelings of people, and sometimes we get 267 00:27:48.279 --> 00:27:52.880 the science wrong. I'm going to give you a couple of examples. A 268 00:27:52.920 --> 00:28:00.599 good one is mackerel in the Northeast Atlantic. Ices continued with the store assessment 269 00:28:00.640 --> 00:28:04.680 approach a number of years ago, where the industry as a whole shouted, 270 00:28:04.720 --> 00:28:12.839 you're wrong, we are seeing more fish than you claim, and we said, 271 00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:17.119 no, the numbers say this, and they shouted louder and around it, 272 00:28:17.160 --> 00:28:22.000 and we ran a workshop in twenty nineteen which charted a way forward to 273 00:28:22.119 --> 00:28:27.440 bring in more information and more of the understanding of the system as a whole, 274 00:28:27.839 --> 00:28:32.920 and we did change the macro stock assessment in response to that. And 275 00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:37.839 those kind of things can't be dealt with by technology alone. You've got to 276 00:28:37.880 --> 00:28:44.279 work with the fishes. Another really good one is Blue Whiting, where back 277 00:28:44.279 --> 00:28:48.359 in the nineteen nineties Icy said Blue Whiting is going to collapse, it can't 278 00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:55.279 cope with this level of catch, and yet the catch is kept coming and 279 00:28:55.319 --> 00:28:57.799 the stock didn't collapse, and in fact, it was years later we realized 280 00:28:57.799 --> 00:29:03.160 that there's this dynamic change with the ecosystem which impacts blue whiting, and so 281 00:29:03.480 --> 00:29:08.640 we were thinking that everything was stationary across the whole type series, but in 282 00:29:08.680 --> 00:29:15.559 fact the productivity was changing over time. And once we listened to people who 283 00:29:15.559 --> 00:29:18.559 said there's still blue writing out there, a lot of blue whiting, we 284 00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:22.960 realized that in fact our projections of what was going to happen was considering it 285 00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:26.200 was lowly in a low production state, and in fact it was in a 286 00:29:26.240 --> 00:29:32.559 high production state. So new technology helps, new data helps, but we 287 00:29:32.680 --> 00:29:41.119 need to find a way to bring together the quantitative scientific understanding from the likes 288 00:29:41.160 --> 00:29:45.200 of people like me and my organization, with the experiences and the stories and 289 00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:49.000 narratives, and I mean stories in a powerful way, not a diminutive way, 290 00:29:51.559 --> 00:29:59.640 to bring that together to ensure sustainable fisheries. You use the words feel, 291 00:30:00.359 --> 00:30:07.440 experience, and remember now orthodox science doesn't really have categories for feelings, 292 00:30:07.480 --> 00:30:11.279 but you seem to be quite focused on building in the fisherman's feelings. The 293 00:30:11.400 --> 00:30:15.319 question is, how on earth do you start doing that? Where would you 294 00:30:15.359 --> 00:30:21.359 even start? I use those words on purpose, and I knew you would 295 00:30:21.440 --> 00:30:30.720 react. I think it's important that we understand that we manage fisheries and fisheries 296 00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:37.720 are people and those people every person has something of value to add to the 297 00:30:37.759 --> 00:30:41.119 system. And I sees has taken despite being labeled the way we are with 298 00:30:41.240 --> 00:30:48.960 our databases and our conservative methods and our obsession with quantitative mathematics, which is 299 00:30:48.039 --> 00:30:53.279 the underli like that has helped us bring down phishing effort and increase catches around 300 00:30:53.559 --> 00:30:59.640 the North Atlantic hugely. But we can do better, And you asked about 301 00:30:59.640 --> 00:31:07.079 method and recently we've had two big workshops, one with Natalie Stein's chairing and 302 00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:11.720 beataborgstat In from Norway in the Netherlands, and this was on developing guidance were 303 00:31:11.799 --> 00:31:18.119 ensuring integrity of scientific information submitted to Icy's and they looked at how do we 304 00:31:18.319 --> 00:31:26.039 ensure that when we start broadening the sources of our information and data that we 305 00:31:26.160 --> 00:31:30.720 ensure that it stays it maintains integrity. And then the second workshop we had 306 00:31:30.920 --> 00:31:37.920 just a few months ago was run by Steve Mackinson from the Northern Polgic oh 307 00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:44.960 no that's the wrong group from the Plagic Association in Scotland and Neil's Hintson who 308 00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:48.680 works now for the PFA and that was a workshop on accounting for fishers and 309 00:31:48.759 --> 00:31:56.519 other stakeholders' perceptions in the dynamics of fish stocks, and those two workshops together 310 00:31:57.000 --> 00:32:04.400 are part of our initial state as I sees in trying to develop those methods. 311 00:32:05.519 --> 00:32:07.400 I think it's better that if you want to learn about some of the 312 00:32:07.559 --> 00:32:14.799 methods, perhaps you should speak to Steve or to Nils. But it's certainly 313 00:32:15.559 --> 00:32:19.440 important, and me as chair of the Advisory Committee, I have pushed really 314 00:32:19.519 --> 00:32:24.519 hard for this, particularly with the likes of some of the acts. And 315 00:32:24.559 --> 00:32:29.000 I know the UK now isn't part of the ACT system, but many of 316 00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:32.640 the acts the advisory councils are saying, look, we're seeing different things or 317 00:32:32.640 --> 00:32:37.680 we're seeing the same things. I mean. Famously, we had the North 318 00:32:37.720 --> 00:32:44.759 Sea Survey that went on for quite a while, which began I think in 319 00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:49.039 the early two thousands and went through to I think about twenty ten, and 320 00:32:49.079 --> 00:32:52.640 there we found the signals from fishers were broadly the same as the signals in 321 00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:58.200 the data that the scientists were collecting. Wonderful. I need to ask you 322 00:32:58.240 --> 00:33:02.160 to do something editorially here. You guys have talked about two people now who 323 00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:07.279 we don't have any context for I'd just like you to quickly answer these two 324 00:33:07.400 --> 00:33:10.200 questions Mark from my edit. First of all, could you tell me who 325 00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:16.960 Mike Park is please? Mike Park is the head of the Scottish Whitefish Producers 326 00:33:17.079 --> 00:33:23.240 organization based mostly in Scotland. You mentioned Natalie Steins, who's Natalie Stein's. 327 00:33:25.079 --> 00:33:32.240 Natalie Stein's is a senior researcher at the Dutch Fisheries Institute, which is now 328 00:33:32.279 --> 00:33:37.640 part of Wachninger Marine Research. And forgive me for saying it as Vasheninger. 329 00:33:37.759 --> 00:33:43.359 You would say it as Wagainingen, but I'm Dutch and so I put the 330 00:33:43.400 --> 00:33:50.519 little twang in there. But she specializes in human dimension in fisheries and is 331 00:33:50.559 --> 00:33:54.839 in fact just now has been elected the chair of the Steering Group on Human 332 00:33:54.880 --> 00:33:59.960 dimension in ices. I'm so glad I asked you that because we're getting an 333 00:34:00.039 --> 00:34:07.480 A with our Friend episode, You're really should It's fantastic, Mark. I 334 00:34:07.519 --> 00:34:14.719 would like to ask your views on whether they're in tune. We are a 335 00:34:14.719 --> 00:34:22.519 lot of the fishermen here for as a conservation where they're closed the areas we've 336 00:34:22.840 --> 00:34:28.519 it's almost like history is shown as from the past. To know an idea 337 00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:36.199 that's not been feshed, nobody ever gets fished in it. Again, the 338 00:34:36.280 --> 00:34:40.840 issue of closed areas is a very interesting one because all of the governments have 339 00:34:42.079 --> 00:34:51.159 made commitments now to have thirty percent closed or protected by twenty thirty and ten 340 00:34:51.199 --> 00:34:59.199 percent to be highly protected. Now, the evidence comes and goes as to 341 00:34:59.360 --> 00:35:04.519 the effect ofness of those measures in terms of increasing fish productivity, and it 342 00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:08.800 really does depend on the size of those closures. I know you've had Ray 343 00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:15.599 Hillbourne on your podcast series, and Ray has some quite clear views and statements. 344 00:35:15.880 --> 00:35:21.599 And there are also many people who go to the other extreme, which 345 00:35:21.679 --> 00:35:25.559 say any closed area will give a fishery huge value, but that doesn't necessarily 346 00:35:25.800 --> 00:35:30.760 mean that will happen. We're seeing also, and I'm going to broaden it 347 00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:36.960 from the mane protected area issue to the wind farms. I mean, I'm 348 00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:40.159 set up hearing people saying wind farms are good for fish, and I'm saying, 349 00:35:40.199 --> 00:35:45.039 well, fish aggregate around them, it doesn't mean the productivity is increasing. 350 00:35:45.239 --> 00:35:50.119 The jury, in my mind is still out as to whether wind farms 351 00:35:50.159 --> 00:35:54.119 result in greater opportunity for fishing for others beyond those areas from which they've been 352 00:35:54.159 --> 00:36:00.159 excluded. And we need a lot more study, and are not more understanding 353 00:36:00.199 --> 00:36:04.880 of the areas, of the dynamics of closed areas in relation to fish production 354 00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:09.639 and the opportunities to have a sustainable fishery around them. So that's a really 355 00:36:09.679 --> 00:36:15.440 fuzzy answer, but I really think the jury is out for the sake of 356 00:36:15.480 --> 00:36:22.599 the audience. My father's question to you this proposition was that when you close 357 00:36:22.679 --> 00:36:28.559 a freshing area, fisher never caught again. As an outsider looking in, 358 00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:34.039 I would make the assumption that by closing a fish area you would be creating 359 00:36:34.079 --> 00:36:37.880 an environment with unintruded breeding and you would see an amplification in stocks. Can 360 00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:44.039 you explain why that doesn't occur? Well, it might occur, but it 361 00:36:44.079 --> 00:36:49.880 depends on the size of the area closed. I know you mentioned Mike Kaiser 362 00:36:49.920 --> 00:36:53.280 already, but the experience around the Isle of Man, where I also was 363 00:36:53.320 --> 00:36:59.880 based for three years, is that the closed areas for scollops help you know. 364 00:37:00.360 --> 00:37:05.800 And we see that we have the the whole issue of Norway pout in 365 00:37:05.880 --> 00:37:07.920 the North Sea. We have the sprat boxes, we have some of the 366 00:37:07.960 --> 00:37:14.119 others. We we also see the quite poor example of the place box in 367 00:37:14.159 --> 00:37:17.599 the southern North Sea, where we had a closed area where actually over time 368 00:37:17.679 --> 00:37:22.719 the place moved out of it, so there's almost no discernible benefit from the 369 00:37:22.719 --> 00:37:27.239 place box. And I'm going to get attacked for saying there's no discernible benefit 370 00:37:27.280 --> 00:37:31.559 from the placebox. But the place moved out they as the waters warned the 371 00:37:31.639 --> 00:37:36.880 place the place box was too shallow and too warm, and the place moved 372 00:37:36.880 --> 00:37:39.239 out of it, so there was no protection. And yet that area, 373 00:37:39.440 --> 00:37:44.239 as you said, remains closed. You're seeing they found a better place. 374 00:37:44.679 --> 00:37:52.039 Oh dear, oh dear, would you would would you agree? Mark that 375 00:37:52.239 --> 00:37:59.400 the wind sock is exact same? What's the wind sock? The wind sock 376 00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:06.079 sorry, the wind sox audios area that was closed for it must be fourteen 377 00:38:06.159 --> 00:38:13.440 or fifteen years. And the way sed shedland. Oh that I don't know 378 00:38:13.519 --> 00:38:16.960 the details of that one. I'm afraid, Jim So. Another example which 379 00:38:17.119 --> 00:38:22.960 is less applicable in the UK at the moment, but is the EU is 380 00:38:22.960 --> 00:38:29.800 the big ferrari about the vulnerable marine ecosystems, the VMEs which have been introduced 381 00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:37.519 by the European Union and lots of organizations are saying that the evidence base is 382 00:38:37.800 --> 00:38:44.679 iffy, but the knowledge of the impact of phishing on those vulnerable marine ecosystems 383 00:38:44.719 --> 00:38:49.280 is quite strong. So there's a there's a degree of what is what is 384 00:38:49.320 --> 00:38:54.239 the purpose and what is the evidence base required to close an area, And 385 00:38:54.280 --> 00:38:59.519 that's that's a tricky one, very tricky. The area I was coming at 386 00:38:59.800 --> 00:39:06.599 with my question to you, it's just my past. I'm originally born and 387 00:39:06.679 --> 00:39:10.239 brought up in a fishing village called Helmstale. It's on the Murray Firth, 388 00:39:10.320 --> 00:39:17.400 which is the east coast of Scotland, and that relatively small firth or small 389 00:39:17.480 --> 00:39:23.280 sea area. If you went down one coast and up the other wick Leibster, 390 00:39:24.079 --> 00:39:30.239 Helmsdale and then go along the south coast which is Burghead, Hopeman, 391 00:39:30.440 --> 00:39:38.039 lossy Mouth, mac Duff, but bamf right out the Fraser. But as 392 00:39:38.079 --> 00:39:45.119 a child, I'm going up until the seventies and that there would have been 393 00:39:45.360 --> 00:39:52.639 hundreds of boats fishing out of all that harbors every day and now there's not 394 00:39:53.679 --> 00:40:01.159 one boat and anybody that does go in and try it never gets a fish. 395 00:40:00.599 --> 00:40:06.880 I think there's there's a there's a there's an issue that we need to 396 00:40:06.880 --> 00:40:10.760 be aware of that a lot of these closed areas need to be need. 397 00:40:10.880 --> 00:40:15.960 Two things you need really clear management objectives as to why they're closed, and 398 00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:21.239 sometimes that's lacking. And also you need some if you have closed an area, 399 00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:24.440 you need to have some monitoring to understand what the impact and implications of 400 00:40:24.480 --> 00:40:31.119 that closure has been. And that again is a really weak area in terms 401 00:40:31.159 --> 00:40:37.480 of the evidence base coming through. And we have so many closed areas which 402 00:40:37.519 --> 00:40:45.039 are put in to parently help, and yet there's no money spent. There's 403 00:40:45.039 --> 00:40:50.480 no understanding either on the ecology that's happened, that's changed after the areas are 404 00:40:50.519 --> 00:40:55.280 closed, or how it's impacted people. And what I think I would say 405 00:40:55.280 --> 00:41:00.719 to you, Jim, is you can't just close an air without realizing that 406 00:41:00.800 --> 00:41:07.320 you need to keep monitoring and understanding the repercussions of that closure. So I'm 407 00:41:07.360 --> 00:41:10.440 agreeing with you. If you don't have the evident space, we can't comment 408 00:41:10.719 --> 00:41:16.719 on what's happening and why people are. You see the concern with a lot 409 00:41:16.760 --> 00:41:25.000 of fishermen, even going back to brush on the cut in the cod coda 410 00:41:25.760 --> 00:41:32.519 and take it forward with to talk about some of the government measures, as 411 00:41:32.559 --> 00:41:39.360 you rightly say about wind farms, marine protected areas, highly protected mean protected 412 00:41:39.480 --> 00:41:46.280 areas. The concern for the fishermen at this end is the serious concern about 413 00:41:46.280 --> 00:41:51.639 their viability. So it's not just a case of greed and try to catch 414 00:41:51.719 --> 00:41:55.840 more. There is serious, serious concern about the viability of the Scottish fleet. 415 00:42:00.039 --> 00:42:04.920 I agree with you, I completely agree with you. The the the 416 00:42:04.920 --> 00:42:08.960 the forcing out and they use the word forcing because there is the objective, 417 00:42:09.079 --> 00:42:15.599 the high political objective for renewable energy, there is the biodiversity objective as well. 418 00:42:15.960 --> 00:42:21.280 All of those do challenge the people who are making their livelihoods from the 419 00:42:21.360 --> 00:42:28.800 sea, and that is a real political challenge for people. And in the 420 00:42:28.880 --> 00:42:36.079 same way that we always lose out, or I say we those of us 421 00:42:36.119 --> 00:42:39.320 who work in fisheries overall, we were always trumped by oil and gas. 422 00:42:40.280 --> 00:42:44.960 They always had, they always came top, and now we're always going to 423 00:42:44.960 --> 00:42:50.840 be trumped by wind. There's it's very difficult and people are being having their 424 00:42:50.880 --> 00:42:53.760 voices taken away. That's my personal opinion. By the way, I'm not 425 00:42:53.800 --> 00:42:59.559 speaking for ices at all by saying that, well, I one hundred percent 426 00:42:59.639 --> 00:43:02.559 agree were there and even in our small area, which I don't expect you 427 00:43:02.639 --> 00:43:08.000 to know the names of the grounds they marked. But if we go to 428 00:43:08.039 --> 00:43:15.800 the east side of the county and living in Caithness, we have what is 429 00:43:15.840 --> 00:43:20.880 called the Beatrice oil field, and now there is covered in wind farms. 430 00:43:22.400 --> 00:43:27.280 That was that in a fisherman's term in the past, that was a smith 431 00:43:27.400 --> 00:43:32.360 bank, one of the most prolific fishing areas in the east coast of Scotland. 432 00:43:32.960 --> 00:43:40.719 Now there's a proposed wind farm farms on the north of the county, 433 00:43:42.119 --> 00:43:45.880 north of Caithness. In a fisherman's world, that is a stormy bank. 434 00:43:46.320 --> 00:43:52.239 And so there with this for all the size of the sea is away. 435 00:43:52.280 --> 00:43:58.880 A fisherman looks at it. Why why can and put your wind farms right 436 00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:08.320 on our gardens or fishing roads. I'll give you another example, a bit 437 00:44:08.360 --> 00:44:15.159 bigger dogger bank, very prolific fishing ground is about to be covered or in 438 00:44:15.199 --> 00:44:21.360 the process of becoming a wind farm. Do you feel that this situation is 439 00:44:21.400 --> 00:44:27.639 because of the four year electoral system where people are making investments based on their 440 00:44:27.880 --> 00:44:32.000 four year stint, not on the next fifty years of what's best for fisheries 441 00:44:32.079 --> 00:44:38.559 and wind farms. Is it restricted by that political system. I'm speaking now 442 00:44:38.920 --> 00:44:44.239 not as a stock assessor. I'm speaking to someone who's observing the fisheries system 443 00:44:44.480 --> 00:44:52.280 and the annual round of negotiations is actually the biggest driver in terms of fisheries, 444 00:44:52.800 --> 00:44:55.119 and that takes all the attention, and it's almost impossible to get the 445 00:44:55.159 --> 00:45:02.159 attention of a fisheries manager in Northern Europe. Between September to December. They're 446 00:45:02.199 --> 00:45:06.719 gone. You've lost them, so you can't have any conversation with them because 447 00:45:06.719 --> 00:45:12.519 they're busy doing the annual rounds of fisheries negotiations, so of course there's no 448 00:45:12.679 --> 00:45:16.159 voice for them. For some of the year they are away at their own 449 00:45:16.199 --> 00:45:22.079 tables, busy negotiating quotas. So I'm not sure if it's the electoral system 450 00:45:22.440 --> 00:45:28.920 or what, but somehow the voice of the people impacted by decisions of how 451 00:45:28.960 --> 00:45:34.719 to manage the sea and manage the space of the sea is not coming through 452 00:45:35.159 --> 00:45:39.719 if you prioritize their livelihoods and their communities and their culture. If, however, 453 00:45:39.920 --> 00:45:45.679 you want to prioritize renewable energy and wind, then you're not going to 454 00:45:45.679 --> 00:45:53.840 listen to their voice anyway, A very valid point. Can I go forward? 455 00:45:54.199 --> 00:46:04.920 Mark? And another real concern for fishermen, genuine concern for Scottish fishermen 456 00:46:05.159 --> 00:46:12.440 just now, which I'm sure you'll be probably aware of is the amount of 457 00:46:12.960 --> 00:46:21.400 unrecorded and regulated and monitored fish that has been caught by let's say non UK 458 00:46:21.679 --> 00:46:28.719 boats and there isn't there's no monitoring when they're landing, they're not boarded, 459 00:46:29.119 --> 00:46:36.360 and see there is there is completely out of control and fishermen, Scottish fishermen 460 00:46:36.679 --> 00:46:43.039 under the tight rein and looking at losing cord again next year. This is 461 00:46:43.079 --> 00:46:49.679 all happening in there around their their fishing grounds and it's we're seeing it with 462 00:46:49.800 --> 00:46:55.400 our own eyes as they're landing in in our in our market, and the 463 00:46:55.880 --> 00:47:05.039 other part of us as well as annoyance for our fisherman is oh, well, 464 00:47:05.400 --> 00:47:07.599 what can an impact is that going to have in your figures? If 465 00:47:07.599 --> 00:47:16.239 they're not if you're not getting them the figures, Well, I can't I'm 466 00:47:16.239 --> 00:47:20.320 going to disappoint you. I can't really comment on that because we don't have 467 00:47:20.360 --> 00:47:27.039 evidence of that coming through and the observers that we have monitor catches from and 468 00:47:27.480 --> 00:47:30.599 the only boats that are allowed to fish in the waters are the spoats that 469 00:47:30.599 --> 00:47:37.920 have traditionally done so, for instance with the non European boats are certainly not 470 00:47:38.039 --> 00:47:45.440 allowed to be brought in to European waters and UK waters unless there's further agreement 471 00:47:45.599 --> 00:47:51.719 with coastal states. So I can't really comment further on that. I do 472 00:47:51.760 --> 00:47:53.199 think we have to be very careful though, and I'm going to point a 473 00:47:53.239 --> 00:47:59.199 finger here. It's very easy to say other people are doing it, but 474 00:47:59.280 --> 00:48:04.519 we don't have to have long term memories to remember the mackerel situation through the 475 00:48:04.599 --> 00:48:08.599 nineteen nineties and two thousands, when we had extra pipes and new keys brought 476 00:48:08.639 --> 00:48:14.400 in for secret shipping of mackerel from Scottish boats. And I know those Scottish 477 00:48:14.400 --> 00:48:15.639 fishermen who were doing it, and they hold their hands up and say, 478 00:48:15.719 --> 00:48:19.880 yes, we did, and some of them were prosecuted. We know that. 479 00:48:20.440 --> 00:48:22.800 So we have to be very careful when pointing fingers because it's not always 480 00:48:22.840 --> 00:48:29.760 the other side. All of us have some degree of challenge. But I 481 00:48:29.800 --> 00:48:32.440 can't comment on current behavior because we don't have evidence for that. Sorry. 482 00:48:34.360 --> 00:48:39.559 Accepting that historically Scottish fishermen were upt all sorts of nonsense, but also accepting 483 00:48:39.599 --> 00:48:45.320 that there are a lot of Portuguese, French and Spanish boats landing in Shetland 484 00:48:45.320 --> 00:48:50.639 in the North of Scotland unmonitored, you would never see these figures coming through. 485 00:48:51.519 --> 00:48:54.880 There's no track record or logbook for illegal landings. And this is what 486 00:48:54.920 --> 00:49:01.079 I think Jim was getting at. Oceano reported four months ago that they expect 487 00:49:01.159 --> 00:49:06.599 the figure to be as high as forty percent. Even if that figure's doubled. 488 00:49:06.960 --> 00:49:10.440 They're suspecting forty percent of the fish stocks in the North Atlantic are being 489 00:49:10.960 --> 00:49:17.119 caught and landed illegally. Is there a number that you put into your calculations 490 00:49:17.119 --> 00:49:24.639 to account for it or it does it not even come into your reckoning our 491 00:49:24.800 --> 00:49:30.239 estimates And I can't comment on the specifics. I can't comment on who is 492 00:49:30.360 --> 00:49:37.880 landing were in Shetland of dony Goal or wherever, or Newlyn. But the 493 00:49:37.079 --> 00:49:45.440 issue is that where we have evidence of differences between the official catch and the 494 00:49:45.480 --> 00:49:52.239 actual catch, then we do our best to incorporate those bits of information into 495 00:49:52.320 --> 00:49:58.000 it. I started my career in Belfast in the nineteen nineties and we went 496 00:49:58.079 --> 00:50:02.400 down to the auctions three week and we counted the number of boxes and then 497 00:50:02.440 --> 00:50:07.440 we looked at what was reported and we readjusted the catch to account. Now, 498 00:50:07.480 --> 00:50:10.559 as scientists we got into trouble, and you can imagine in Northern Island 499 00:50:10.639 --> 00:50:16.800 it got a little bit ticy, but we gave estimates that were different from 500 00:50:16.840 --> 00:50:22.239 the official catches, and that happens across the ISIS system. We have different 501 00:50:22.280 --> 00:50:27.519 countries of different ways to bring that together. Now. I can't talk about 502 00:50:27.519 --> 00:50:31.880 the specifics of what's happening now in different places, but we try our best 503 00:50:31.920 --> 00:50:37.400 to get the right levels of catch to come through in the data flow. 504 00:50:42.480 --> 00:50:45.480 I feel that thoroughly answers that you asked their Jim and me too. I 505 00:50:45.639 --> 00:50:53.000 was expecting a different answer because there are enormous fishing groups of boats sometimes include 506 00:50:53.039 --> 00:50:58.760 you know, hundreds of them on forums and social media, and there is 507 00:50:59.000 --> 00:51:05.599 a virtual war going on in the sense that the acquisition has been made by 508 00:51:05.760 --> 00:51:09.880 some of the Northern fishermen against the illegal landings. I mean, they're talking 509 00:51:09.920 --> 00:51:15.639 about thousands upon thousands of tons of fish, not just a discrepancy in four 510 00:51:15.679 --> 00:51:22.159 boxes of cord on a day boat. The only solution I can see is 511 00:51:22.199 --> 00:51:25.599 to have twenty four hour monitoring on every port of a boat lands it's catch 512 00:51:25.679 --> 00:51:30.400 is monitored, and I can't accept the fact that it's too costly to do 513 00:51:30.480 --> 00:51:39.159 that when we're talking about correct fish assessment for our generational sustainability I'm not going 514 00:51:39.199 --> 00:51:44.360 to comment on specifics of what is being claimed at the moment because we don't 515 00:51:44.360 --> 00:51:50.440 have evidence. We don't anyway, But what I would say is just in 516 00:51:50.480 --> 00:51:54.880 the last month, the European Union has passed new legislation in terms of the 517 00:51:54.880 --> 00:52:00.679 control and enforcement and the greater use of ams for small boats as well for 518 00:52:00.840 --> 00:52:06.280 electronic monitoring on big boats and all of that coming through. So and I 519 00:52:06.360 --> 00:52:14.079 know that Scotland is bringing in some extremely tough electronic monitoring requirements of boats that 520 00:52:14.159 --> 00:52:20.480 come into Scottish waters. So there are mechanisms and initiatives coming forward. But 521 00:52:21.280 --> 00:52:28.039 yeah, we actually asked the question incorrectly because we should have asked you what 522 00:52:28.239 --> 00:52:31.480 solutions are in the offing to address that problem, rather than what the problem 523 00:52:31.599 --> 00:52:36.320 is. So this is really encouraging that the Scottish government, you do come 524 00:52:36.400 --> 00:52:40.440 under quite a lot flak from the fishing industry, are actually making steps towards 525 00:52:42.119 --> 00:52:45.159 monitoring all landings or getting as close to that as they can for all boats 526 00:52:45.239 --> 00:52:51.440 landinggains Scottish waters with that include foreign landings. Yeah, my understanding is for 527 00:52:51.639 --> 00:52:55.679 certain for access rights to Scottish waters, there's a number of regulations that are 528 00:52:55.679 --> 00:53:02.840 coming in that will require certain certain other mechanisms to be there, and I 529 00:53:04.000 --> 00:53:08.639 can't remember the details, but I understand that some of that is electronic monitoring 530 00:53:08.920 --> 00:53:14.920 and other element Yes, it'll be interesting to see what happens because they've already 531 00:53:15.000 --> 00:53:24.079 the Scottish government already have the Marine in Scotland in place and their officers monitor 532 00:53:24.400 --> 00:53:31.760 local boats that never never monitor the foreign boats. But also there's an extra 533 00:53:34.320 --> 00:53:38.480 complication because a lot of them when I class them to start with as non 534 00:53:38.800 --> 00:53:45.800 UK, it's because quite a lot of them are have got the British flag. 535 00:53:45.760 --> 00:53:52.519 They're registered in this country, but they're not owned or crewed by this 536 00:53:52.679 --> 00:54:00.719 country. Well that's that's that's that's not a question for me chair of the 537 00:54:00.719 --> 00:54:05.000 Advisory Committee, but that's a management question for people in Edinburgh and London. 538 00:54:05.599 --> 00:54:09.440 Yeah, no, Mark, I know, I totally appreciate that and respect 539 00:54:09.480 --> 00:54:14.440 what you're saying. What I and I wasn't trying to pin anything and you 540 00:54:14.480 --> 00:54:24.239 what I meant and dead ask was how how can that impact on the figures 541 00:54:24.280 --> 00:54:30.079 that you do work with? Well, as I said, we try our 542 00:54:30.079 --> 00:54:36.400 best to estimate the actual catch coming through and we are not naive to the 543 00:54:36.440 --> 00:54:42.679 situation that official figures may be slightly different in certain circumstances, and the scientists 544 00:54:42.760 --> 00:54:46.960 across the whole Icis region actually have different mechanisms in different countries. To try 545 00:54:47.000 --> 00:54:55.079 and address those differences. On your on your assessments, Mark, do you 546 00:54:55.360 --> 00:55:01.239 what's your view when you say the different things that you're looking at? What's 547 00:55:01.440 --> 00:55:09.039 your views on mesh size? And do you believe in which some scientists speak 548 00:55:09.079 --> 00:55:15.719 the dawn predator stalks and non predator stock. I've heard you comment on this 549 00:55:15.760 --> 00:55:20.599 in previous podcasts, and I find the concept a little difficult. Jim, 550 00:55:20.679 --> 00:55:24.440 I'm sorry, because all fish are predators. Every fish is a predator. 551 00:55:24.519 --> 00:55:29.880 A herring is a predator. A herring is like a zebra that eats lion 552 00:55:29.960 --> 00:55:36.880 cubs because cod eggs are in the water and cod larvae and they're all eaten 553 00:55:37.320 --> 00:55:43.119 by other fish planktibles. Cod themselves are cannibalistic, and we include that in 554 00:55:43.159 --> 00:55:50.320 our models, particularly in the in the northern CODs around Spoalbart, etc. 555 00:55:51.039 --> 00:55:58.000 We have specific models that work on the basis that cod eat themselves. So 556 00:55:58.960 --> 00:56:02.519 the concept of a predator stock and a non predator stock, I think doesn't 557 00:56:02.559 --> 00:56:10.280 capture the real confusion that happens out in our oceans. Were used to thinking 558 00:56:10.400 --> 00:56:15.280 terrestrially of shape and cows and wolves, et cetera. Doesn't happen that way 559 00:56:15.280 --> 00:56:22.639 in the ocean. Everything eats everything at different life stages. Yeah, but 560 00:56:22.000 --> 00:56:27.239 yeah, we have a hag in our head and haka huge and big teeth, 561 00:56:27.920 --> 00:56:30.599 and then we have a basking shark. A basking shark is eating, 562 00:56:30.639 --> 00:56:37.519 in fact, more fish at earlier life stages than a hare. This is 563 00:56:37.599 --> 00:56:42.159 fascinating, Mark, because we have heard this proposition of a predatorial hierarchy. 564 00:56:42.239 --> 00:56:46.840 But I do I've always suspected that we're projecting terrestrial values into the ocean because 565 00:56:46.920 --> 00:56:52.039 the way I've been brought up is there are two apex predators, the orca 566 00:56:52.079 --> 00:56:57.800 and the Great White shark, whereby nothing lives on the Great White shark and 567 00:56:57.840 --> 00:57:00.400 nothing lives on the orca, but they do kill each other. I find 568 00:57:00.440 --> 00:57:05.079 that a great refreshing answer, because the next person we have on that talks 569 00:57:05.119 --> 00:57:08.480 about this predatorial hierarchy, we get to pop back to them. I think 570 00:57:08.480 --> 00:57:13.880 it's very I think I think that's a great as an answer. What's your 571 00:57:13.880 --> 00:57:19.559 thoughts there, Jim, that there is no predatorial hierarchy. I respect, 572 00:57:20.320 --> 00:57:23.719 and that's why I asked the question, and I i've had you know, 573 00:57:23.880 --> 00:57:32.320 obviously everybody has different views, and I think it's in a previous podcast. 574 00:57:34.079 --> 00:57:39.440 I remember asking you on Christians and from Iceland and he was doing some surveys 575 00:57:39.440 --> 00:57:44.840 in the North Sea and it was mentioned to him about waiting. But he 576 00:57:45.199 --> 00:57:49.920 gutted some whiting and not one, not one of whiting that they got it 577 00:57:49.960 --> 00:57:58.119 had any immature fishing. It's a good I have the beginning of my career 578 00:57:58.239 --> 00:58:02.079 in the Irish Sea worked on fish survey, specializing a lot in stomach sampling. 579 00:58:02.880 --> 00:58:07.800 We would find whiting with juvenile whiting inside them, and in fact we 580 00:58:07.840 --> 00:58:13.920 would often find a whiting with a whiting with a whiting inside them, so 581 00:58:14.360 --> 00:58:17.000 that's very clear. And cord just the same. And yeah, the only 582 00:58:17.000 --> 00:58:22.239 one which was always different was of course haddock because they they specialized in a 583 00:58:22.320 --> 00:58:27.559 very different food type. If we're talking about those gadalis, have you found 584 00:58:27.599 --> 00:58:31.719 any bizarre artifacts or items inside I haven't. I'm afraid I've just found rubbish 585 00:58:32.000 --> 00:58:38.599 and fish. There's a fisherman in Wick, I think it's a by Andre. 586 00:58:38.760 --> 00:58:45.639 He was on board and they gotted a cord fully mature cord and there 587 00:58:45.639 --> 00:58:54.000 was an empty cork con in the stomach. Was there really now? Was 588 00:58:54.000 --> 00:59:00.400 it diet cork or was it just regular cork? It wasn't at the turning 589 00:59:00.440 --> 00:59:15.840 cord. Okay, important question, indeed, Mark, if you're you mentioned 590 00:59:15.840 --> 00:59:21.360 it earlier, I just like to take it a wee bit forward. You 591 00:59:21.440 --> 00:59:28.760 mentioned season seasonal is do seasonality comment your reckoning when you're doing your assessments. 592 00:59:29.360 --> 00:59:35.960 Yes, And firstly, there are a number of stocks that we work with 593 00:59:36.400 --> 00:59:43.159 where we do quarterly stock assessments, so good example being things like Sandel's or 594 00:59:43.239 --> 00:59:49.000 the wipe out and there it's important because the productivity and they're so short lived. 595 00:59:50.039 --> 00:59:55.519 Another seasonal issue, which does come into the stock assessments as a whole, 596 00:59:57.159 --> 01:00:01.480 is actually where and when we then, so we're catching and we're looking 597 01:00:01.639 --> 01:00:05.840 sorry, we're looking at the catch data, and we're looking at our own 598 01:00:05.920 --> 01:00:13.199 surveys and also increasing the some surveys run by industry, and actually the time 599 01:00:13.280 --> 01:00:16.880 of year of that survey will impact our assessment of the abundance in that survey 600 01:00:16.880 --> 01:00:22.800 as well, and also if the seasonality is shifting, so we take those 601 01:00:22.800 --> 01:00:27.000 into account. The other thing that we take into account in terms of seasonality 602 01:00:27.280 --> 01:00:32.159 is things like the timing of where in the year that the fish spawn, 603 01:00:32.280 --> 01:00:37.239 so classic being herring, which of course are spawning in the autumn. So 604 01:00:37.280 --> 01:00:44.360 we try to estimate our biomass for north sea herring at the time of year, 605 01:00:44.599 --> 01:00:47.039 which is generally the autumn, rather than the standard which is the beginning 606 01:00:47.079 --> 01:00:52.239 of the year. So we take those into account in terms of seasonality. 607 01:00:53.280 --> 01:00:59.400 But if I haven't addressed a seasonal issue that you think is what else is 608 01:00:59.440 --> 01:01:07.840 there? The reason I ask is because it's been said to me just well 609 01:01:07.000 --> 01:01:15.239 once recently. A cousin of mine he almost fifty year ago, and I 610 01:01:15.280 --> 01:01:20.880 don't know which scientists, but they wanted to do a survey and go for 611 01:01:22.159 --> 01:01:25.760 haddick. I can't remember the time of the year, but he said to 612 01:01:25.840 --> 01:01:31.159 them, you'll not catch haddock just now, and they said, oh yeah, 613 01:01:31.199 --> 01:01:35.320 we need to get our figures, we need to do it away they 614 01:01:35.360 --> 01:01:40.440 went. And that was over certainly going on for forty or fifty year ago, 615 01:01:42.000 --> 01:01:47.519 and only last year I heard it's almost the same thing from a Shetland 616 01:01:47.559 --> 01:01:54.719 fisherman who's seemingly with herring, and they wanted to scientists wanted to do a 617 01:01:54.760 --> 01:02:01.599 survey, and he said to them, you won't cut, you'll not get 618 01:02:01.679 --> 01:02:06.719 any heading where you're going and what you want to do. You won't cutch 619 01:02:06.760 --> 01:02:12.639 any hair in that says, oh, but we need to go Jim. 620 01:02:12.719 --> 01:02:15.239 This is a very very important point. If you're going to build up a 621 01:02:15.280 --> 01:02:22.320 time series of abundance through a survey, it's a relative time series, so 622 01:02:22.639 --> 01:02:29.199 it's generally a very low abundance, but it thereies at that low level that 623 01:02:29.400 --> 01:02:34.159 still is a time series that might be of value. But you've also touched 624 01:02:34.199 --> 01:02:39.119 on the issue of what's appropriate gear to survey. And for instance, I'm 625 01:02:39.159 --> 01:02:45.800 going to use an unusual example anchovy in the North Sea. We know that 626 01:02:45.960 --> 01:02:50.679 anchovy are picked up a lot in bottom troll surveys done by the scientists every 627 01:02:50.760 --> 01:02:53.719 year. However, when we do an acoustic survey of the North Sea, 628 01:02:53.760 --> 01:02:59.920 we don't see anchovy. Now that we think is due to the fact that 629 01:03:00.119 --> 01:03:06.000 the anchovy are coming in shore and spawning in a way at a time when 630 01:03:06.079 --> 01:03:10.360 the acoustic survey is inappropriate. And yet in the Bay of Biscay, almost 631 01:03:10.360 --> 01:03:15.960 all of our advice on anchovy is done using acoustic survey results because the timing 632 01:03:16.039 --> 01:03:22.679 works very well. Now the North Sea Acoustic Survey is targeting herring and sprat, 633 01:03:24.519 --> 01:03:30.000 so not getting anchovy is a problem. But actually our main priority is 634 01:03:30.039 --> 01:03:34.360 hering and sprat biomass. So yes, seasonality matters, and it's all about 635 01:03:34.360 --> 01:03:37.400 designing those surveys with the right gear and the right timing. But if you 636 01:03:37.440 --> 01:03:42.440 have a long time series and enough catch, you will get a signal. 637 01:03:44.280 --> 01:03:46.559 You mentioned anchovies, We don't not inndicate something of a the claim it. 638 01:03:50.840 --> 01:03:57.159 Ah, we're back to the bluefin tuna question. We anchovy again, a 639 01:03:57.199 --> 01:04:00.679 bit like bluthin tuna has come and gone in the North Sea and also in 640 01:04:00.719 --> 01:04:05.960 the Skaggarat in Katagat, getting right round into the Baltic Sea, and it 641 01:04:06.000 --> 01:04:13.079 is very definitely associated with warmer periods in those areas. And I've published a 642 01:04:13.119 --> 01:04:17.519 load of papers when I was in the Netherlands on this subject. The anchovy 643 01:04:17.679 --> 01:04:24.599 need a certain temperature to be able to overwinter in those regions. And the 644 01:04:24.679 --> 01:04:29.039 other thing with things like anchovy is we've shown genetically that in fact it's a 645 01:04:29.079 --> 01:04:32.880 local population that's going up and down. It's not a population from the Bay 646 01:04:32.880 --> 01:04:38.480 of Biscay or the southwest coming through into the southern north Sea. But yeah, 647 01:04:38.480 --> 01:04:44.519 absolutely, the ecosystem keeps changing going on. From TV's podcasts, one 648 01:04:44.559 --> 01:04:49.039 of the things that fascinated me was I'm sure you'll make sense of it, 649 01:04:49.079 --> 01:04:56.360 but that survey when you're on. Christiansen was in the North Sea. He 650 01:04:56.440 --> 01:05:01.599 was doing the kutchin haddock, which as he clus called them like hering lick 651 01:05:02.360 --> 01:05:09.000 size of hearing that was small from Anceland point of view, and he did 652 01:05:09.000 --> 01:05:13.840 an age taste on them and they were between four and five year old, 653 01:05:14.599 --> 01:05:17.119 and he said, if that fish was caught in Iceland it would have been 654 01:05:17.239 --> 01:05:25.679 two kilos. Lots of things are changing in our system overall. A good 655 01:05:25.679 --> 01:05:32.159 one is seeing how the maturity of whiting is declined. Let me get this 656 01:05:32.199 --> 01:05:36.519 the right way around. They are becoming more mature, smaller, and so 657 01:05:36.679 --> 01:05:41.679 things like that are happening in our system. Another one which I'm going to 658 01:05:41.719 --> 01:05:46.760 take you way away from Scotland is in the Baltic. Baltic Sea cod is 659 01:05:46.800 --> 01:05:50.480 in real trouble because of the state of the Baltic and we now have fish 660 01:05:51.159 --> 01:05:56.880 that are so small and so skinny they're not fit for markets anymore. And 661 01:05:56.960 --> 01:06:01.400 yet they're probably two three, four years old. And if this was twenty 662 01:06:01.480 --> 01:06:05.800 years ago they would be healthy, big fish ready for market fulfility. But 663 01:06:05.920 --> 01:06:11.199 they're not anymore. And it's a real concern that in some areas this is 664 01:06:11.239 --> 01:06:15.599 happening and it's only some species. And for instance, Place is doing very 665 01:06:15.599 --> 01:06:20.119 well in the nausea and the size of maturity. Isn't that changing? How 666 01:06:20.199 --> 01:06:26.960 on Earth can a fish that's so skinny sustain spawn? How can that fish 667 01:06:27.000 --> 01:06:31.239 sustain young or is that the thread that actually is one of the challenges. 668 01:06:31.320 --> 01:06:36.880 We do see that they are these cod are also maturing younger and also giving 669 01:06:36.920 --> 01:06:41.079 off eggs, and there are new year classes coming in. But your question 670 01:06:41.239 --> 01:06:45.800 is are they healthy year classes? This is a self perpetuating things. We 671 01:06:45.880 --> 01:06:48.480 don't know what's happening in the Baltic. Well, we kind of know. 672 01:06:48.599 --> 01:06:55.199 There's a mixture of eutrophication, the nutrients too high and the oxygen is running 673 01:06:55.199 --> 01:07:00.840 out. We have parasites in the Baltic which are affecting the cod coming a 674 01:07:00.880 --> 01:07:03.599 lot from the seals. There's a whole host of things which are impacting the 675 01:07:03.639 --> 01:07:09.360 size of the fish there. But it's one of the most outrageous, outrageous 676 01:07:09.400 --> 01:07:18.320 the onward clear documented systems in decline and it really and the hellcom the environmental 677 01:07:18.400 --> 01:07:24.719 organization there, the governmental organization has just published a report on the poor state 678 01:07:24.920 --> 01:07:29.320 of the sea there and it has really impacted the fishing industry. And if 679 01:07:29.360 --> 01:07:34.840 you speak to Polish or Latvian fishermen, they really are struggling. Mark I 680 01:07:35.199 --> 01:07:43.559 can think that Stad further. We see that sometimes and it's really interesting. 681 01:07:44.199 --> 01:07:50.280 Good ask you can you explain it? Just certain smaller idiots rowned over shores 682 01:07:50.760 --> 01:07:58.639 were they'll catch fish. And the way we put it, it'll be in 683 01:07:59.639 --> 01:08:05.119 just see this time a year October, anything between September October November, where 684 01:08:05.360 --> 01:08:10.360 we would be looking at our fate, our fish in absolute prebo condition, 685 01:08:11.360 --> 01:08:16.079 and we'll see some huddache and stuff which you would almost swear was in it 686 01:08:16.239 --> 01:08:21.720 was March and April when they had just spawned and the odor completely oda condition. 687 01:08:24.279 --> 01:08:30.279 What course is that, I don't know, But we make these assumptions 688 01:08:30.359 --> 01:08:32.199 that they all spawn at the same time, in the same place, in 689 01:08:32.279 --> 01:08:35.279 the same way. That may not be the case. There might be these 690 01:08:35.319 --> 01:08:40.159 odd one or two I mean a classic is in heering. We see this 691 01:08:40.640 --> 01:08:45.279 dynamic between spring spawning and autumn spawning, and this change is over decades and 692 01:08:46.039 --> 01:08:51.920 across all of the areas, there is flexibility and change. But what why 693 01:08:53.399 --> 01:08:57.479 particular fish is in a bad state? Could be the environment, could be 694 01:08:57.600 --> 01:09:05.039 parasites, could be port feeding you as a host of things. Well, 695 01:09:05.760 --> 01:09:10.640 i'd just like this on behalf of the Seafood Matters podcast. I would just 696 01:09:10.800 --> 01:09:15.000 like to say I must have thank you Mark. I really enjoyed, genuinely 697 01:09:15.159 --> 01:09:19.159 enjoyed speaking with you, and thank you. Jim has been very great talking 698 01:09:19.199 --> 01:09:27.479 to you all and very similar, funny enough to what I felt with Michael 699 01:09:27.680 --> 01:09:34.600 Kaiser and the previous podcast. Was the resounding message I'm getting ringing in my 700 01:09:34.760 --> 01:09:44.399 ears, is that the importance and industry and scientists speaking together, and it's 701 01:09:45.079 --> 01:09:48.600 that we're getting that message coming through from all sides. Thank you very much. 702 01:09:49.680 --> 01:10:02.159 Yeah, it's crucial, crucial the battle