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Hello, everyone, Welcome to the
latest episode of Hardwood Knocks. This is

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Adam from wal here with my fantastic
co host Dan Pavalley. We have a

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special midweek episode for you this time
around. Later on in the episode,

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Dan will be talking to Jake Fisher
about tanking in the NBA and Jake's new

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book, Built to Lose How the
NBA's tanking era changed the league forever.

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You'll definitely want to stick around for
that conversation. But before we get there,

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we're going over a trio of current
event topics, the Celtics organizational restructuring

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with Danny Ames stepping down and Brad
Stevens's promotion to an executive role rather than

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the head coaching role. Embid Joel
Embid and his injured knee, and the

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Philadelphia seventy six ers as they are
officially set for a second round matchup against

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the Atlanta Hawks. And because that
matchup is officially set, we have to

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do a brief post mortem on a
rather feisty New York Knicks team that just

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seemed to out of steam during that
first round of the playoffs. Before we

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get into any of that, as
always, I have to ask Dan,

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how's it going. I am doing
well under the circumstances. How about yourself,

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You've got to be celebrating Hawks making
it's a round two. Yeah.

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I didn't feel like rubbing it in
quite as much after this game because it

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kind of felt like the series is
a foregone conclusion going into Game five,

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So like Game four was definitely the
cause for celebration, and now it's just

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kind of basking in the aftermath and
getting ready for a tough second round battle.

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But I'm doing good. Yeah,
And look, we'll get to that

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in second but I think we have
to start with the Celtics stuff. Danny

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Ainge stepping down, I'm not sure
if he's actually retiring. He's been linked

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to the Jazz, which doesn't make
any sense to me because I don't know

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why they need another decision maker when
they've been doing as well as they've been.

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He was also linked to the Blazers, which is slightly interesting because if

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they do lose to the Nuggets,
will there be changes? Most people thought

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it would be just a coach,
but I think that Neil O'Shea is got

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to be equally on the hot seat
at this point. Brad Stevens is now

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the president of basketball operations. We
are going to have a deeper discussion on

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all of this, which will hopefully
have more information on the Celtics future coaching

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candidates later in I think ready for
next week. But what were your just

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general impressions of this didn't develop quickly
behind the scenes, But the news broke

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sort of like dip the toe in
the water, but then it really broke.

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It was just in tandem with everything
else that happened on Wednesday. It

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was just a wild couple hours of
news breaks. Yeah. I think my

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initial reaction because the first trickle before
the dam just broke was that Danny Ainge

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was thinking about taking a step back
or a step down or retiring. It

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was always a little bit vague,
and you know, I, along with

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basically everyone else, took the low
hanging fruit, which is, you know,

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like, I'm sure that Danny Ainge
is just going to toy with the

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idea of stepping down before not actually
doing anything and talking for months about how

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he was close to doing something.
But then he actually did, and it

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was just kind of shocking. I
don't think you could have expected this kind

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of restructuring, at least to this
magnitude, even coming off a first round

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series loss because Jaylen Brown was out, this team was never healthy. We

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never got to see what it could
do at full strength. So I don't

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think this was a move necessitated by
what happened during the twenty one season so

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much as just these individuals deciding that
it was in their best interest and possibly

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the organization's best interest, to make
these changes. The Danny Age news wasn't

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as surprising to me because he's been
around for such a long time. He's

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made his mark. The Brad Stevens
promotion was pretty interesting. I mean,

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we're not that far removed from him
being viewed as such a ridiculously good coach

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in the NBA that there were,
you know, the polls that everyone has

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seen about whether you would take him
or Jannazanda Dakumpo or any other NBA player

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to build around, which were foolish
from the start, but they still existed.

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But still we're talking about a young, relatively inexperienced, at least at

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the NBA level coach now getting this
promotion into a role that he doesn't really

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have experience with. Now, being
the president of basketball operations in the NBA

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is far different than being a coach, and Grousbeck and the other higher ups

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within the Celtics organization talked about how
they do want to have delineation between the

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coaching roles and the general managing roles. So it is very clear that Stevens

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will be operating purely in a roster
building capacity. That's not something he's done

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before, even with his success at
Butler. Like, there's a big difference

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between recruiting high schoolers and potential transfers
to your collegiate program and running an NBA

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organization. Those are entirely different things. I don't think that this is a

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great example of like failing upward or
anything. Stevens's resume, both in college

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and in the NBA is pretty darn
impressive. I mean, sure, he

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did not take the Celtics to the
NBA Finals, much less win a title,

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but three Eastern Conference Finals appearances with
a constantly shifting cores and a large

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young roster for some of those runs. It's easy to view his brief tenure

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through a lens of disappointment, but
I think that that's just setting the bar

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way too high, and given what
almost every other coach in NBA history has

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experienced in those first few seasons he's
been pretty successful. So I'm I went

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from shock to intrigue pretty quickly.
I think I'm with you on everything you

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said. One of the things when
you look at Stevens specifically, I am,

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yeah, I feel like it's not
homerism, but I'm happy that there's

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a national media during the moments like
these, and I know the national media

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played a role in trumpeting up Brad
Stevens's reputation. But I think a lot

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of the coverage has shifted, especially
when you look at the podcast world,

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towards these teams, specific podcasts or
people who cover not beat writers, but

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people who cover a specific team.
I think that's great. They're going to

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be able to bring you more nuanced
to their specific team than you or I.

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That's why we bring them on this
podcast. But the lack of knowledge

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about Brad Stevens and the Celtics among
people who did not cover or follow the

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Celtics religiously was eminently clear on Twitter, and it was there was a difference

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between getting off jokes, which I
can appreciate, versus what seemed like ignorance,

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where it was just looking at the
Celtics record without any context of saying

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Brad Stevens underachieved. The roster was
flawed to begin with, based off what

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the front office did over the offseason
and in previous off seasons. And you

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had Jason Tatum dealing with COVID.
You didn't have Jalen Brown in this year.

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He's Marcus Smart missed a ton of
time this year. Kema Walker dealt

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with knee injuries. He dealt with
an oblique injury. Like this is.

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There were reasons that the Celtics were
this bad. They're not as bad of

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a team as they showed if they're
fully healthy. And I know a ton

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of other teams dealt with injuries,
but that context is important, and so

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it reminds me that I am happy
with Yeah, I want to go to

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the Celtics coverage for this as well. Those Celtics specific people, they're going

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to know this best. But there
is this outcry over national media when I

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do think and I feel like I'm
old man yelling at cloud here. Maybe

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I don't want my slant or livelihood
of the league to be obsolete. But

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it was pretty clear just with the
way that people were viewing Brad Stevens,

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it was like, Okay, there
is a middle ground here. It was.

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I think it's fair to say that
Brad Stevens is not a better building

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block than you honest attempt to coompo. I also think it's fair to say

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that he didn't have to leave his
job, and this was not him failing

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upwards. If you want to get
into the racial element of this, as

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Steven A. Smith did, I
don't want to whitewash that conversation, and

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so I'd be hesitant to comment of
this. I don't view this as Brad

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Stevens failing upward, though. I
think there are probably twenty nine other organizations

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that would love to have Brad Stevens
with them in some capacity. And he's

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been builed by previous players as a
genius when you look at is after the

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time out plays. He's taken rosters
that and played them basically coached them above

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their talent level. Yeah, did
he, I guess mess up the integration

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of Gordon Hayward when they had all
these other pieces. Sure there was that

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talk about him force feeding Gordon Hayward, but like that team, when you

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even look at Gordon Hayward's first arrival, when you also had Marcus Morris and

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Terry Rozier, when Gordon Hayward was
injured, there were just so many not

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just mouths to feed on the offensive
end, but guys playing for their next

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contract. It was putting him in
a very difficult situation to begin with,

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and then you had this constant turnover, not with just injuries, but of

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players leaving, where Kyrie Irving became
disenchanted. So I don't have sympathy for

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him. Like every team, he's
dealing with these circumstances. But Brad Stevens,

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to me, is a really good
coach. If he's overrated in the

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sense that if you think he's the
best coach in the league, then yeah,

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maybe, or if you think he
is a better building block than a

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superstar, that's just flat out falls. But the takes have just skewed two

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In the era of extremes, I
find myself increasingly exhausted, and it's these

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people that like to dunk on the
national media for stuff, as they should,

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but when you don't actually cover or
maybe even watch this Celtics team,

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or at least take into account the
context of what's going on behind the scenes,

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it was just kind of frustrating to
see that slant take on a life

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of its own. And again that
might just be a totally selfish perspective on

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this because I'm not covering a specific
team, but i think I've been pretty

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open where I'm not insecure about the
state of how the media coverage is.

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I think it's important that these teams
have their such specific people covering and that

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you can go and get more nuanced
covers that you can't get from the more

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national pods. But this was just
like so many of the responses to this

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were egregious, And I'll wrap up
by saying that Danny Age stuff didn't surprise

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me at all, just because I
think he arguably ran his course and between

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what he said about race a week
at Starigo where no Celtics players ever brought

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up the concern about hearing racial slurs
in Boston or I don't know if he

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said anywhere else in that, plus
just the failure of his job where you

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look at, yeah, he put
them in a position to have Jason Tatum

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and Jalen Brown and trade for Kyrie
Irving, but you failed at talent retention,

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and you probably overvalued your assets a
little too much and overplayed your hand

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when looking at other opportunities that arose
in the looking back to Jimmy Butler,

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Paul George Kawhi Leonard, not the
derailists too much, but you talking about

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the difference between national media and local
media. I just wanted to take a

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quick second to extend an ri ip
and well wishes to the family of Rick

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Finel, the Charlotte Observer reporter who
has been with the Hornets since their inaugural

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season in nineteen eighty eight and was
found dead in his home at sixty three

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on Tuesday. And I never met
him, unfortunately while I was covering Nuggets

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games or anywhere else, but from
all accounts, just a wonderful human being

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who was so dedicated to those around
him and his family and the Hornets,

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and just has broken so much news
over the last three plus decades, and

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just an unfortunate story, and just
wanted to give him a quick shout out.

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Yeah, and I will say,
talk about a standard bearer for beat

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writers, And again I'm not trying
was not trying to crap on local coverage

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on especially beat writers whose jobs are
tough. I don't think it came across

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that way. Yeah, but I
want to make that clear. I never

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met Rick in person, but he
was guest hosting a radio show that I

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went on in Charlotte, and he
was asking me questions about the Hornets.

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One time I stammered through the whole
thing, just because I was awestruck by

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the entire context of the situation.
Just to give you a little insight into

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I think how prominent he was,
or just how well known he was within

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NBA circles. So condolences to his
family and rip to him. Just given

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it a moment there. So back
to the Celtics though, before we move

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on to the other topics. I'm
just curious, and I know you will

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cover this in more depth, probably
next week, but do you have any

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early favorites for replacements for Stevens.
I got nothing because I'm curious to see.

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I think the big names will be
attached, because it's the Celtics if

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you're looking at it, Kenny Atkinson. I don't know how deep into the

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bag of retreats that they'll go,
but Jason kids already been mentioned. I

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could see him go with not I
don't want to say lesser known names,

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but maybe guys have only had a
single head coaching kid like a Lloyd Pierce

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has already been mentioned. It also
wouldn't surprise me if we saw him go

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the route of hiring a first time
or like himself, do you poach someone

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from college? Are you looking at
assistance like west On Cell, Junior,

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Will Hardy, even Johnny Bryant with
the Knicks, Darvin Ham with Milwaukee.

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There are just a lot of names
that I could see the Celtics going after

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here, and it'll be curious to
see how Brad Stevens goes about this.

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You know, they've already mentioned Udoka
from San Antonio as well. This feels

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like a hugely wide net is going
to be cast, and it should be.

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You know, I always want to
preface this by saying this is probably

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the area that I personally have the
least insight into. It's hard enough to

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comment on coaching decisions and coaching success
from the outside, much less what an

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organization is looking for in a coaching
candidate unless they make that criteria very explicitly

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clear. So I've just been looking
at the most prominent names that we would

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attach to any organization. So,
David Vanterpool, if you're looking at the

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player turned coach route, you want
to hear Chauncey Billups mentioned Sam Cassell seems

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to be getting some love. I'm
sure we're going to hear talk about Becky

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Hammon and possibly getting her first opportunity
as a head coach. I have no

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idea what's going to end up happening. I just I hope that the net

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is cast wide because I think the
worst thing the Celtics could do is just

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promote internally. And that's not to
discredit a top assistant like Jim Laranega just

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they need to be looking everywhere,
and he would be someone I would expect

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them to give heavy consideration too,
because maybe how much has he called from

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working under Brad Stevens and that many
Krad Stevens comfortable. What's leave me my

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final question about all of this,
and I don't think anyone could have answer

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to this. Rad Stevens has coached
a lot of the players that are still

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going to be on the roster for
quite some time. How do you go

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about building out this team when there's
going to be that attachment to them?

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Because I think you look at Jason
Tatum, Jalen Brown, that's it.

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Those are your intouchables, that's your
base. J is Jalon Brown in touchable

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with the right player comes along,
maybe not, but they weren't heavily involved

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in the James Harden sweepstakes, so
that I think that gives you an idea

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of at least how much they value
Jalen Brown there. But look at a

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Marcus Smart, a Kema Walker's contract
is probably pretty tough to move, and

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they're not in the rosiest situation next
season unless you can guarantee that Walker's knees

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are going to hold up, which
I don't think can be guaranteed at this

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point. This roster is still going
to be shallow. They do project,

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I believe as a taxpayer right now, what are going to be the moves

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here? What are the moves there? What can you add? Yeah,

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they'll be the MLA, but who
can you get for that? What do

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they need most, what's feasible for
them to do on the trade market?

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And how aggressive will Brad Stevens being
his first offseason. I think everything has

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to be on the table, and
at this point that's probably as specific as

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we can get. I don't think
there's any scenario in which you trade Tatum.

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I find it highly unbelievable that they
would even consider moving Brown. I

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doubt they're going to move like Peyton
Pritchard because he's an effective rotation player on

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a rookie scale contract. The same
might be said about Robert Williams. Everyone

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else is going to be fair game. I think we're going to hear a

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lot about them trying to shop Kemba
Walker, but not necessarily to like enter

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a rebuild or anything more to retool
around Jaylen Brown and Jason Tatum. But

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those are probably the only two core
players that I would be shocked if they're

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not in being talent at the start
of next year. And just for context

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to the limited flexibility, if they
can renounce all their own free agents,

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which they might do, they also
might not do because Emmin Fornier is one

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of them. If you've interest in
retaining him, that cap hold is massive.

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Though they're not going to pay him
twenty six million dollars, they're into

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the tax if you renounce everybody,
it's very slight and I don't care whether

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they pay the tax or not.
But looking from a team governorship perspective,

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do you want to pay the tax
for a team that's clearly, as currently

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constructed, not prepared to win a
title? Right there? Are a lot

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of decisions to make in Boston.
I'm so curious to see how and I

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do think there's the level of awkwardness
or at least ambiguity about how Brad Stevens

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goes about this when he just coached
these players and he's new to his role.

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I just want to see how aggressive
he's going to be in his first

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offseason as the team president. It's
probably best to move on to Joel Embiid

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and six Ers slash versus the Hawks. What do you make of the one?

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I feel terrible for Joel Embiad.
This is just absolutely awful, having

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an MVP campaign and he just can't
seem to catch a good break. There's

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always just something lingering with him.
The Sixers classified it as a small lateral

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meniscus tterror in his right knee.
Also when they announced me the injury will

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be managed with the physical therapy and
treatment program, meaning surgery as of right

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now is not deems necessary and Embiad's
considered day to day, which is why

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to me, because you still have
to treat him with kid gloves. Just

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he is so important to your long
term But impression of the imbead injury on

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it being day to day, but
also what kind of chances do you give

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the Sixers against a Hawks team if
Joel Embie can't go. I mean,

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my first thought was to compare this
to another former Sixers big who had what

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I believe is the same injury,
and that's Andrew Baina, and he tried

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to play through it for a little
bit and just was never the same again.

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And I just given Embiad's lengthy injury
history, and this is probably going

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to come across as a biased Hawks
fan wanting Embid not to play, and

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that's not the case, but they
should send him out. His long term

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health is more important than whatever happens
this postseason. And I would, speaking

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as a Hawks fan, not an
NBA analyst, I would rather see him

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play because I would I want to
play teams at full strength. You know

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you don't want those asterisks attached.
I want to see what a full strength

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Talks team can do against a full
strength Sixers team. As an NBA analyst,

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like I want what's best for him
beads a long term health, and

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I just I cannot wrap my head
around a guy who missed multiple seasons at

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the beginning of his career and has
always been wrapped in a bubble and needed

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to be monitored for injury maintenance purposes. Having a small meniscus tear and only

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being day to day, that just
that doesn't make any sense to me.

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I'm not a doctor, but I
would imply because they don't think it needs

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surgery, I think the implication would
be that it could get worse, because

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getting worse would be it needs surgery. Yeah, it's a It's a tricky

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situation for sure. If if he
doesn't play, though, then this is

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a toss up, right. I
mean the Sixers say throw bodies at Trey

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Young, I mean a tist old
Ben Simmons. They have the person Green

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even yeah, Danny Green, to
take him on in individual matchups? Do

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they have the offensive firepower to keep
up? Though? That's a fantastic point.

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I think I would skew more towards
the Hawks in this where if you

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told me Embide isn't playing, I
might be like Hawks and five, Hawks

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and six. Maybe Hawks and five
is underestimating Phillis defense, but they're going

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to struggle to generate half court offense
without Embied And I think the not the

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00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:34,720
the solution, but the thing you
want the sixers to inherently look at more

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is just the reality of their situation
is now. N Simmons should probably spend

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more time. Is the only big
and I know that's not fair to him,

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but you can't do Ben Simmons.
Dwight Howard just isn't sustainable for long

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minutes and the minutes with Simmons is
alone big this year have not been great,

285
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and they've had he hasn't necessarily been
classfied as the five in those situations

286
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they normally classified to buyas Harris,
but the Danny Green to Bias Harris,

287
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Ben Simmons, Matisse thybol like,
those are the four that I would absolutely

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pencil into that lineup, and you
need to see where you can get with

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it, and maybe you can get
away with it against the Hawks because they're

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not too big. Like is Clint
Coppela versus to Bias Harris or Ben Simmons

291
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on the glass a huge advantage.
I mean probably Clint Coppela just absolutely gobbled

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up the Nicks on the last and
even John Collins there, so maybe you

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can't get away with that. I
just don't know what they do offensively,

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even putting the hand the ball in
the hands of Simmons more where Doc Rivers

295
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I feel like wants to put Simmons
in the dunker spot a lot, and

296
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I don't know if that's the solution, because he is going to be one

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00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,559
of your speedsters on the ball,
and he's one of your just best.

298
00:20:37,839 --> 00:20:42,839
He is your best passer on the
team. The rise recently of Tyrese Maxey

299
00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:47,720
becomes massive for them. Can score
at every level, has just shown some

300
00:20:47,759 --> 00:20:51,319
good defensive pressure. He can still
be a little hesitant to not shoot the

301
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wide open threes, but I feel
like he's getting better at those. That's

302
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a lot of responsibility to saddle him
with, though, to sort of elevate

303
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the ceiling of your half court offense. Without who was a bona fide MVP

304
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candidate, I think my biggest concern
for Philadelphia is that this team was twenty

305
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six during the regular season and three
point attempts per game. Sure, they

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connected on thirty seven point four percent
of them, which was slightly above the

307
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:19,039
league average of thirty six point seven
percent. But this is not a deadly

308
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:22,880
three point shooting team. And if
we're taking a bead out of the equation,

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00:21:23,319 --> 00:21:26,440
you have to be able to hit
threes from all over to draw Clint

310
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:30,799
Capella out of the paint, because
he's just been masterful at shutting down the

311
00:21:30,839 --> 00:21:34,680
rim, and if you can't drag
him away from his comfort zone, you're

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00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:41,039
not going to score much in a
half court setting. So I think that's

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my biggest concern for Philadelphia right now
and for the Hawks. I think there's

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going to be a tendency to view
the first round series with the Knicks more

315
00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:56,119
as a Knicks failure than a Hawks
success, and I'm not sure that's the

316
00:21:56,279 --> 00:22:00,839
right approach because this was a young, inexperience Talks team that came in and

317
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had to play in front of fans
at Madison Square Garden for I believe three

318
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of the five games and did not
shrink in the moment. Came out with

319
00:22:11,039 --> 00:22:15,200
a great defensive game plan from the
start, adhered to it, executed it

320
00:22:15,279 --> 00:22:19,559
well. The offense rolled regardless of
who was on the floor. Everything was

321
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:25,839
cohesive. When some players struggled,
others stepped up. This was a really

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00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:30,920
excellent, masterful performance from the Hawks, admittedly against a Knicks team that seemed

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00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:36,200
fatigued and gassed towards the latter portion
of the series, but that's also probably

324
00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:40,799
in part because of how well the
Hawks executed from start to finish. Yeah,

325
00:22:40,839 --> 00:22:42,480
Bogey coming on for them when he's
knocking down his three, they're an

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00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:48,440
impossible team to defend. They might
have another gear too, where if Danielle

327
00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:52,880
Gallanhari plays better for them, it
opens up plays well at all. That's

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00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:56,559
true too, that's the best way
to frame it. That might be their

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00:22:56,759 --> 00:23:00,759
their ticket to an extra gear.
I guess the the big thing for them

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is Philadelphia is much better built to
limit Trey Young and is going to make

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life harder on him, So that
will be a thing to watch. But

332
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I would come back to the Sixers
on offense being the difference without Embiid eighty

333
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nine percentile and half court efficiency this
year when he's on the court, twentieth

334
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:15,839
percentile on half court efficiency when he's
off the court, And that just kind

335
00:23:15,839 --> 00:23:19,759
of matches up with everything you see
on paper and just everything in theory that

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they do. And you mentioned their
three point shooting. He's been uber important

337
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:29,319
to their outside shot making this season, and so without Embiid, I would

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00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:36,359
probably go Hawks in six, maybe
five. With Imbid, I think I

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00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:38,880
might still just go Hawks in seven
because it's Embid going to be Embiad is

340
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,480
the other question if he does play. I'm right on the same page on

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00:23:42,559 --> 00:23:48,519
both fronts. The Knicks, though, as their mini post mortem this,

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I think it can be easy to
be a captive of the moment and just

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00:23:53,559 --> 00:23:57,799
be disgruntled about the way that they
played and read too much into this and

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then forget that, Hey, they
were billed as one of the five worst

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teams in the league. They ended
up with a four seed in the Eastern

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Conference. That is a great season. Anyone would have taken that if they

347
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were a Knicks fan. We also
have to acknowledge their actuality, which is

348
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they got really good health in general, aside from some stuff to Mitchell Robinson

349
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Alec Burks with their key players relative
to the rest of these teams, and

350
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I don't know if you ran it
back next season how good they would actually

351
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:30,799
be. I would say that they
are probably seventh or eighth in the East

352
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at best. I'm definitely putting the
Celtics in front of them. I'm still

353
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putting the Heat in front of them. I think you put the Pacers in

354
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,680
front of them, assuming they're healthier, right just looking at if there are

355
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no major changes. What I also
think needs to be acknowledged. Is this

356
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,440
was clearly I think maybe a positive
reminder that they are still so far away

357
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:53,640
and the roster needs to be treated
accordingly. You don't need to go all

358
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,599
out to retain some of these free
agents. I think Reggie Bullock is probably

359
00:24:56,599 --> 00:24:59,880
your most important free agent, and
that includes Derek Rose. To me,

360
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,680
Derek Rose is not important in your
future, and I think we saw the

361
00:25:03,759 --> 00:25:06,640
limitations of an offense that was so
dependent on Derek Rose this series because he

362
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:11,480
had a rough game at five against
the Hawks. So I'm looking if I'm

363
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,400
the Knicks at keeping Bullock. I'm
not against extending Julius Randall. I don't

364
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,880
think this is a referendum on how
good he is. I think he was

365
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,160
gassed and he played so many minutes
during the regular season. He can't be

366
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:26,559
the number one on a really good
team. I think that that is what

367
00:25:26,599 --> 00:25:29,400
this at minimum showed, and so
you need to figure out on getting that

368
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,480
player. But you also need to
be cautious of not spending on the wrong

369
00:25:32,519 --> 00:25:34,039
guys. Because you have all this
cap space. There are a lot of

370
00:25:34,079 --> 00:25:37,400
players you know, there are activing. There are very few players that are

371
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,480
gonna be worth that money. Unless
Kauai is coming to New York, you

372
00:25:41,519 --> 00:25:44,319
know, can you you know Kyle
Lowry, he might be interesting for this

373
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:45,640
team if they can get him on
a two year max, But I think

374
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he wants to be on more already
made contender and the Knicks aren't quite there

375
00:25:48,839 --> 00:25:52,160
yet, and I think they need
to be brutally honest about where they're at,

376
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and that is there's still the level
of To me, R J bat

377
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,519
is the single most important player of
this ranchise right now. I know Julius

378
00:25:59,559 --> 00:26:02,640
Randall might make all MBA, it
doesn't matter to me like he is your

379
00:26:03,079 --> 00:26:07,079
your swing still at having the sustainable
superstar, because I don't know that Julius

380
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:11,119
Randall is necessarily that he's at least
your ticket, your best ticket right now

381
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:17,279
or shot at getting the costar to
what Julius Randall is doing. And I

382
00:26:17,279 --> 00:26:19,240
don't think you need to bend over
backwards to try and bring a lot of

383
00:26:19,279 --> 00:26:22,160
the other these other players back and
no one's the well as important. But

384
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,960
you also have Mitchell Robinson who could
be your free agent, maybe you pick

385
00:26:26,039 --> 00:26:27,599
up his team option. You have
to make a decision there, and you

386
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,079
also need to balance you know,
Obi Coop and played more towards the end

387
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,359
of the year and played better,
and we even saw and play some key

388
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,480
minutes in Game five. You have
Julius Randall here, Where does he fit

389
00:26:37,559 --> 00:26:40,559
in with that? And you need
Emmanuel Cooky needs time to develop. He

390
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:45,119
was criminally underused throughout the Hawks and
Knicks series, and that comes back to

391
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:49,720
TIBs too. Can he show better
adjustments? And I'm not saying, if

392
00:26:49,759 --> 00:26:52,160
you ask me right now, I
was wrong about the TIBs higher. If

393
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:56,279
you ask me right now, if
I think he's the coach to lead this

394
00:26:56,319 --> 00:27:02,319
team to the next contender level iteration, my answer would be no, just

395
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:04,480
because I haven't seen the willingness to
adjust. Maybe he was just looking out

396
00:27:04,559 --> 00:27:08,279
lack of options regular season. Specifically, I'd like to see a focus on

397
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:12,000
actual player development because it wasn't given
to Kevin Knox and Frank Neil Keenan this

398
00:27:12,079 --> 00:27:15,599
year. It just didn't happen,
and then to bail from IQ a little

399
00:27:15,599 --> 00:27:19,799
too much in the postseason. In
my opinion, it's a critical offseason in

400
00:27:19,799 --> 00:27:22,799
the sense that I don't think the
Knicks need to view this as well.

401
00:27:22,799 --> 00:27:26,000
We need to build upon this four
seed finish. You need to be realistic

402
00:27:26,039 --> 00:27:29,920
about where you stand in the Eastern
Conference, and I think that your record,

403
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,079
your situation right now was at least
slightly inflated. There's nothing wrong with

404
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:37,240
that, but let's be brutally honest
here. Ask those tough questions, provide

405
00:27:37,279 --> 00:27:45,519
those difficult, awkward answers. I
cannot emphasize enough that it is okay to

406
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:49,720
say both that this season, despite
a five game loss in the first round

407
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:56,079
of the playoffs, was an unmitigated
success and all of what you said is

408
00:27:56,119 --> 00:28:00,000
true, and that there are significant, important questions that have to be answer

409
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,240
because the long term future of this
team is still in question. Those are

410
00:28:03,319 --> 00:28:08,079
not mutually exclusive concepts, because we
cannot lose sight of just how much progress

411
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:11,319
was made in New York. Now. You and I went on the Subway

412
00:28:11,319 --> 00:28:18,359
Sports Talk podcast with Pete Kennedy,
and we were asked by Pete what needed

413
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,680
to happen in the playoffs for this
to be a success. And you know,

414
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:23,799
right then and there, I was
all on board with no matter what

415
00:28:23,839 --> 00:28:27,799
happens in the playoffs, this is
already a success. And the playoff series

416
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:33,359
probably went about as poorly as Knicks
fans could have hoped for. It's still

417
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:40,119
a success. The fact that Madison
square Garden was bumping in a postseason scenario,

418
00:28:40,519 --> 00:28:45,039
that Julius Randall developed into an All
NBA caliber player, those are all

419
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:51,680
unmitigated successes. They just don't lessen
the importance of those big offseason questions.

420
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:59,440
I think it is very Nicks of
the last two decades to have this successful

421
00:28:59,559 --> 00:29:03,519
year and knock yourself out of contention
for one of the top picks in a

422
00:29:03,519 --> 00:29:10,079
absolutely loaded draft class. I think
it's very Nixy that there are a ton

423
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:15,960
of offseason questions and roster holes that
need to be filled with a historically poor

424
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:21,440
free agent class when a lot of
teams have money, and that just makes

425
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:26,480
it even more clear that the answers
to these questions aren't simple, and some

426
00:29:26,559 --> 00:29:30,079
of the questions just aren't going to
be answered at this time. I think

427
00:29:30,119 --> 00:29:33,759
that you can very reasonably stick with
Julius Randall on an extension of any size,

428
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,279
but by doing that to your point
of RJ. Barrett being the most

429
00:29:37,319 --> 00:29:44,000
important player on the roster, you're
almost requiring him to develop into the number

430
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:48,480
one option, which frankly, he
did not look the part of during this

431
00:29:48,559 --> 00:29:52,920
first round loss. I wholeheartedly agree
that the focus next season, now that

432
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:57,640
you've established yourself as a playoff team
in the East, needs to be on

433
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:03,319
development. It is criminal that Emmanuel
quickly got so little run during this loss

434
00:30:03,319 --> 00:30:10,079
when it was inordinately clear that the
Knicks needed way more offensive firepower, especially

435
00:30:10,119 --> 00:30:11,640
with Randall struggling. You would have
thought that you wanted to go to that

436
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:17,200
spark plug scorer off the bench even
more frequently, and it just didn't happen.

437
00:30:17,559 --> 00:30:21,359
Alec Brooks was fantastic in Game one, couldn't do anything the rest of

438
00:30:21,359 --> 00:30:23,559
the series. You would think that
that would be the impetus for quickly to

439
00:30:23,599 --> 00:30:29,200
play more. Doesn't happen. And
you know, Tom Thibodeau has his strengths

440
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:33,240
and he has his flaws, and
not playing young players and adhering to a

441
00:30:33,319 --> 00:30:37,839
strict rotation and giving heavy minutes to
the starters is among those flaws. So

442
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:41,960
there has to be a little bit
more flex going forward from that, because

443
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:47,240
I don't see many paths towards dramatically
altering this roster in a positive fashion this

444
00:30:47,359 --> 00:30:51,400
offseason in particular. Yeah, I
would agree with you there. I would

445
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:53,000
just want to re emphasize that I
do think this season was a success and

446
00:30:53,039 --> 00:30:56,839
we'll see how much the culture is
actually shifted based on how appealing are they

447
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:02,039
in free agency, or the bigger
thing will be a next star that comes

448
00:31:02,039 --> 00:31:03,839
on at the trade market. I
don't know who it's going to be.

449
00:31:03,359 --> 00:31:07,599
Are the Knicks on their list really
on their list, not this Anthony Davis

450
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,519
ceremonial kind of throw in. It's, you know, the Lakers or the

451
00:31:10,559 --> 00:31:11,960
Knicks, when you know that the
Knicks didn't really have the firepower at the

452
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,319
time to trade them. And I
also the one thing I will add,

453
00:31:15,359 --> 00:31:18,359
I don't lament the absence of their
draft pick as much as you do.

454
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:22,559
I think just because of the they
would have needed to have been. They

455
00:31:22,599 --> 00:31:26,000
were just so far and away not
pad this year that what would their lottery

456
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:26,960
odds have been. Would you rather
if you want to say you'd rather have

457
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,799
the lottery pick, then this first
round appearance. I don't regret you.

458
00:31:30,839 --> 00:31:33,279
I think that's a fair take.
But that's the thing I just don't really

459
00:31:33,279 --> 00:31:34,440
remember. But I do I agree
with the fact that it is kind of

460
00:31:34,519 --> 00:31:37,920
Knicks to have been bad for this
long and then this loaded, So I

461
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,720
don't lament it at all, Like
they did the right thing by competing.

462
00:31:40,759 --> 00:31:44,480
It's just there's probably like a tier
of six or seven players that you really

463
00:31:44,519 --> 00:31:47,880
want in this draft. And of
course this is the year they're they're finally

464
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,400
not in the bottom six or seven. Yeah, that would that is very

465
00:31:51,519 --> 00:31:55,279
Nicks. You are correct there,
so they'll they'll be in. There's a

466
00:31:55,279 --> 00:31:57,319
lot of teams that'll be interesting to
watch over the offseason. There's I think

467
00:31:57,359 --> 00:32:01,599
it's probably more interesting than most,
just given how much they overachieved this year.

468
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,920
Do you have anything else that you
want to get to before we hop

469
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,000
out of here? We said thirty
minutes, and we did like thirty two.

470
00:32:07,319 --> 00:32:10,000
I'd call out a w for Dan
and Adam. I don't know about

471
00:32:10,039 --> 00:32:15,599
you. You had to get one
today, rude, and now I'm angry

472
00:32:15,799 --> 00:32:19,319
until next time. This isn't until
next time. You'll be hearing from me

473
00:32:19,359 --> 00:32:22,480
in just a few seconds, but
please remember to rate, review and subscribe.

474
00:32:22,799 --> 00:32:27,400
So this national podcast trolling my own
little ranch. From the beginning of

475
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,119
this, I will catch you in
a few seconds, Adam and I will

476
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:36,759
catch you together very shortly. Talk
to y'all soon. Hey, hardw Knox

477
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,720
listeners, It's Dan again, this
time to talk to you about hosting your

478
00:32:39,759 --> 00:32:45,559
own podcast with our parent distributor,
blue Wire Pods, and there's no better

479
00:32:45,599 --> 00:32:49,440
place to host than blue Wire Hustle. Hustle was created to give everyone the

480
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,359
opportunity to take their podcast to the
next level. Or if you want to

481
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,759
host a podcast and just don't know
where to start, Hustle is the perfect

482
00:32:55,839 --> 00:33:00,440
place for you. As part of
the program, you'll receive personal cover art,

483
00:33:00,599 --> 00:33:04,880
q and a's with Bluewire's top podcasters
that has included me so apologies in

484
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,960
advance, access to our community discord, and an e learning course full of

485
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:12,000
tips and tricks. On top of
all that, we'll help you get your

486
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,160
show pushed out to Apple, Spotify, Google, Stitcher, and all the

487
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,599
other listening platforms. The best part
is you get all of this from only

488
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:22,279
fifteen dollars a month. That's the
same rate any other hosting site which charges

489
00:33:22,319 --> 00:33:24,119
you just for the initial setup.
So if you're ready to do more than

490
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:30,319
just listening to Hardwood Knoxes sub mediocre
basketball takes, then make your voice heard

491
00:33:30,359 --> 00:33:34,240
in Hustle. Acceptance into the program
is limited, so get your application in

492
00:33:34,279 --> 00:33:37,880
today. To apply, go to
BW hustle dot com slash joint check out

493
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:42,720
the description box in this episode to
find out more. But that's BW Hustle

494
00:33:43,039 --> 00:33:47,480
dot Com slash Join what is up
Hardwood Knox listeners. I am Dan Pavalley

495
00:33:47,559 --> 00:33:52,079
coming at you without my fantabulus co
host Adam frommel I am, however,

496
00:33:52,319 --> 00:33:59,079
super stoked to be joined by Jake
Fisher, the author of Built to Lose

497
00:33:59,279 --> 00:34:02,480
How the NBA Tanking Era Change the
League Forever. He is also an MBA

498
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:07,159
insider writer reporter for Bleacher Report,
which I also write for them too,

499
00:34:07,159 --> 00:34:10,320
So I guess Jake Fisher is also
a colleague. If you guys don't follow

500
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:15,440
him on Twitter, do it immediately
at Jake L. Fisher. That's at

501
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:20,119
JA K E L f I S
C h E R Jake. How are

502
00:34:20,119 --> 00:34:22,280
you doing today? Two? Wo
man? No, no one has ever

503
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:27,320
ever spelled out my full name to
me, so it's an honor for that,

504
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,800
and it's an honor to be here. I mean, doesn't like won't

505
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:34,760
people just assume sometimes that like the
H, like you know, the C

506
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,639
won't be in there. I don't
want people searching f I S A g

507
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:43,679
R sometimes look at Fisherman C.
But no, yeah, I think they

508
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:45,639
snuck that C. And when my
family came in over from Ellis Island.

509
00:34:45,679 --> 00:34:51,400
That's like the the urban legends.
So look anything to make it distinct,

510
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:53,280
so that someone will spell out your
last name. That's the key to a

511
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:55,320
good last name, is you,
I think you want someone to spell it

512
00:34:55,360 --> 00:35:00,760
out. But we are here to
talk about this book that I just recently

513
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:05,119
finished, Built to Lose, How
the NBA's tanking era changed the leak forever.

514
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:09,239
It's fantastic. Listeners can find the
link in the description of this podcast

515
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:13,079
to go buy it, and it
could be purchased from what I've seen anywhere

516
00:35:13,119 --> 00:35:15,480
there are books. I enjoyed it. I said, I loved the beginning.

517
00:35:15,519 --> 00:35:20,079
But before I ask you specifically about
the book, you mentioned in the

518
00:35:20,119 --> 00:35:23,679
epilogue how you weren't necessarily sure that
the material you were cultivating for this was

519
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:28,400
going to be a book. When
did you first realize that, oh,

520
00:35:28,519 --> 00:35:30,599
this is going to be a book. And when that realization hit and this

521
00:35:30,679 --> 00:35:35,239
is just me personally think about it, was there that overwhelming sense of oh,

522
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,000
holy crap, I'm about to write
a book. Yeah, I mean,

523
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:44,119
I've always wanted to write books.
I was that Sports Illustrated before bleacher

524
00:35:44,119 --> 00:35:47,119
Report. And for those who don't
know, got laid off that whole very

525
00:35:47,159 --> 00:35:52,840
public blood letting that happened in twenty
nineteen, and was I was quietly working

526
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:57,840
on this for like a year before
I got let go, but that that

527
00:35:57,920 --> 00:35:59,960
kind of just opened the door for
me to kind of dry and dive in

528
00:36:00,159 --> 00:36:02,679
and do this full time. So
here's too you know, many more,

529
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:09,320
but you know, so that's to
say that the breadth of the project never

530
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,679
seemed too too intimating. I knew
it was going to be a lot of

531
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:16,760
work in the beginning. I thought
it was just like a moment, right

532
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:22,840
Like I was covering the Sixers for
Liberty Ballers at Espionation right around twenty thirteen

533
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,679
when Sam Hanky got hired. I
was also covering the league for Slam Magazine,

534
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:29,800
as you know, I was as
an intern there and a contributing writer

535
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:32,079
when I was in school up in
Boston at Northeastern, and I was going

536
00:36:32,159 --> 00:36:37,079
to Celtics games at TV Garden,
and you know, people forget Boston traded

537
00:36:37,159 --> 00:36:42,719
kag and Paul Pierce to Brooklyn the
same night that Hanky traded Drew Holidays in

538
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,679
New Orleans at twenty thirteen draft.
So covering covering the Sixers, being in

539
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:50,320
Boston, going to those games at
TD Garden, I felt like I was

540
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,440
in that eye of the taking hurricane, if you will. And it really

541
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:57,320
was kind of like a narrative of
you know, well, Boston or Philly,

542
00:36:57,519 --> 00:37:00,599
get back there faster, all that
type of stuff. I realized it

543
00:37:00,639 --> 00:37:02,920
was happening in Orlando and Phoenix and
other cities that will talk about it,

544
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:07,440
I'm sure later on too. So
it just felt like I was in something

545
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,159
and it followed me, you know, wherever I did go to talk to

546
00:37:10,199 --> 00:37:13,840
people throughout the league, if I
was at a shoot around or whatnot,

547
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:15,840
wearing an Equals hat, you know, oh you're from Philly, all the

548
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:22,119
process out tanking, blah blah blah. And at a certain point it just

549
00:37:22,119 --> 00:37:24,039
felt like a topic that I couldn't
escape, and it felt like something that

550
00:37:24,079 --> 00:37:30,039
I needed to kind of chronicle in
a couple hundred pages. Another question about

551
00:37:30,039 --> 00:37:34,280
the process, un ironically of writing
this book. The two things that stayed

552
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,280
out. I consider myself a very
organized person, but even thinking about how

553
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:42,039
you had to organize these interviews or
understand what was going to be quoteworthy for

554
00:37:42,079 --> 00:37:45,280
the book, that seemed harrowing.
And then also as someone personally again who

555
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:52,599
pivoted entirely out of doing reporting earlier
on because I felt intrusive upon everyone's life

556
00:37:52,679 --> 00:37:57,840
and just couldn't muster the courage to
speak in scrums or sidle up to people

557
00:37:58,679 --> 00:38:00,440
when they you know, when you're
not really supposed to be talking to them.

558
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:04,239
But that's when you're gonna get the
best stuff. What was that like,

559
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,719
one organizing all these interviews, but
also two, like having to go

560
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:12,639
through so many people. I'm sure
that had to be a fairly stark challenge.

561
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,480
Yeah, I mean that's my biggest
selling point on the book. I

562
00:38:16,519 --> 00:38:20,719
think I talked over three hundred people
for this players, agents, coaches,

563
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:22,159
executives, and from that, like
you mentioned, you know, you get

564
00:38:22,199 --> 00:38:27,840
the good stuff, you get new
original material and and and I really think

565
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:31,239
that is what this book's all about. I've got new details on pretty much

566
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:36,800
every single page, and stuff that
I think you're gonna make NBA twitterheads,

567
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:38,360
you know, go kind of nuts, fall in love with some guys,

568
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:43,880
hate some people. I think it's
really that that is what you know,

569
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,280
the book's all about. And to
do that, You're right, it does

570
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:51,079
take a little bit of a courage
to you know there's a coach and a

571
00:38:51,119 --> 00:38:52,519
scrum, and the scrum is breaking
down and you kind of have to like

572
00:38:52,559 --> 00:38:55,480
elbow the PR guy or guy out
a little bit and just say, hey,

573
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,159
you know what's screw it, Like, Hey, coach, I have

574
00:38:58,159 --> 00:39:00,559
one more question for you. I'm
right on this book. But to me,

575
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:06,480
I've always wanted to do that,
like I've been I've been reporting I

576
00:39:06,519 --> 00:39:09,440
think since twenty thirteen was when I
interned at SLAM. But that's kind of

577
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:14,119
like my first year covering the league. Like I was stuck on this back

578
00:39:14,119 --> 00:39:16,599
corner of the magazine and they basically
said, like, go do whatever you

579
00:39:16,599 --> 00:39:20,360
want. We don't have anything for
you to do, Like this is kind

580
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,360
of make it what you will.
So I just started calling agents because SLAM

581
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:28,440
I wasn't covering the draft. This
was twenty thirteen, right before Draft Twitter

582
00:39:28,559 --> 00:39:30,519
was a thing. There was only
one raft I think it was the only

583
00:39:30,639 --> 00:39:34,800
draft express. So I would just
call them people and saying, hey,

584
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,639
let me tell me the right about
your player. And then I went to

585
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:40,320
like the Nets had some second round
pick Combine and I was talking to this

586
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:44,559
kid named DJ Stephens who had been
who went to Memphis, who was a

587
00:39:44,679 --> 00:39:49,159
super athletic guy people might remember who
like kissed the rim and I saw Scouts

588
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,079
saw me talking to him and came
up to me and wanted to know what

589
00:39:52,119 --> 00:39:54,679
I knew about him, And I
felt from I mean I was eighteen years

590
00:39:54,679 --> 00:39:58,920
old, nineteen years old, I
felt from a very young age what you

591
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,920
know a report of role can be
in this MBA information ecosystem. And also

592
00:40:04,639 --> 00:40:07,360
I like being on my couch on
a Wednesday night and seeing some you know,

593
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:13,760
rotation tweak and being able to text
assistant coach just saying like, hey,

594
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:17,440
like why'd you do that? I
don't really feel like it's intrusive to

595
00:40:17,519 --> 00:40:22,760
a certain extent when you're just honest
about what you're doing. And in order

596
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:27,039
to organize all that to get to
your first question, I'm a big Google

597
00:40:27,119 --> 00:40:32,920
dot guy, and I definitely will
like zoom out a thousand foot view of

598
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:37,199
a topic, of a person,
of a team, whatever, put down

599
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:42,199
every single person I can think of
or research that is at least tangentially related

600
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:45,440
to that subject, and then start
going down the list and keeping track of,

601
00:40:45,559 --> 00:40:49,519
Oh, I emailed this person on
Tuesday, I texted this person in

602
00:40:49,559 --> 00:40:52,199
that day, Oh, this person
can get me that person's contact info,

603
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:57,360
and it just kind of keep hammering
away at it until at a certain point

604
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,800
you've heard enough stories and you feel
like you can transcribe at all and start

605
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:06,079
figuring out how to outline it into
you know, something that makes sense.

606
00:41:07,599 --> 00:41:09,599
You mentioned that you interviewed over three
hundred people for this I think, and

607
00:41:09,639 --> 00:41:13,079
I know he was. The two
conversations you had with Sam thinky were off

608
00:41:13,119 --> 00:41:15,800
the record, But that is the
hook at the beginning of the book that

609
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:19,559
got me where you mentioned that you
had dinner with Sam Hinky and so when

610
00:41:19,599 --> 00:41:22,840
you know that someone had like the
gall to go up and talk to Sam

611
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:24,400
in the first place, then actually
talked with him, whether it's on the

612
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:28,599
record or not, that's the that's
the flashbol moment of the book where it's

613
00:41:28,639 --> 00:41:30,920
like, all right, like you're
in for a real ride. I know

614
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:35,039
they were off the record, but
what can you share about that experience of

615
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:40,639
approaching him, having a conversation with
him. Yeah, I've talked to Sam

616
00:41:40,639 --> 00:41:44,280
more than those two dinners, I
will say, not to pat myself on

617
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:49,519
the deck, right, they felt
like important to include because hey, like

618
00:41:49,599 --> 00:41:52,519
the first one, I think,
like you mentioned in the prologue, I

619
00:41:52,639 --> 00:41:57,119
was I think twenty at the time, not in eighteen nineteen. Going back

620
00:41:57,119 --> 00:42:00,559
to Summer League in twenty fourteen,
it was a year and two his tenure,

621
00:42:00,159 --> 00:42:04,679
and I covered it from Afar from
Liberty Ballers, and I wanted to

622
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:07,039
know who this guy was. I
kind of shook his hand and gave my

623
00:42:07,119 --> 00:42:10,000
business card. He was a nice
guy the year before, but then a

624
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:15,480
whole mb accolendar had flipped, and
you know, at that summer everyone was

625
00:42:15,559 --> 00:42:20,119
kind of trying to That's when a
lot of deform conversations first started, and

626
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:22,719
you know, he was being considered
to be this guy who was kind of

627
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:27,119
sticking up his middle finger at the
sanctity of the NBA, and he was

628
00:42:27,199 --> 00:42:30,320
kind of painted as a caricature,
and I knew he wasn't that. Like,

629
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:35,840
no one is as polarizing as the
figure that they are created in the

630
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:38,440
media, right, So I want
and I hate that term the media,

631
00:42:38,679 --> 00:42:43,400
right, it's a whole other that's
a whole other podcast. But you got

632
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:45,480
the point of what I'm saying.
I wanted to meet him myself and get

633
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:51,079
a full understanding so I can say
that. I mean, I really think

634
00:42:51,159 --> 00:42:55,719
it's ironic that not talking to the
public was ultimately I think a big portion

635
00:42:55,760 --> 00:43:00,519
of his downfall, because he is
a really charming guy, and he's funny

636
00:43:00,559 --> 00:43:04,239
and insightful, and he has a
lot of great relationships around the league through

637
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:07,159
a lot of people who I've met
in the NBA, either through Sam or

638
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:12,960
we have that mutual contact of me
and the person across the table or you

639
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:16,519
know, down the hall, in
the backstage of you know, an arena,

640
00:43:16,679 --> 00:43:21,119
whatever, both know Sam and like
Sam or whatever, and that's kind

641
00:43:21,159 --> 00:43:23,960
of been a kinship factor for a
lot of people. So I think the

642
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:29,800
one thing I can say to you
is that he's not this Excel spreadsheet calculator,

643
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:34,840
nerdy, non personable person that he
was painted to be. I think

644
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:39,679
that's just how he kind of operated
behind the scenes. I would think though,

645
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:44,280
that him having placated the medium more
I think is the way that you

646
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:46,079
put it in the book, would
have done him a pretty big service in

647
00:43:46,159 --> 00:43:51,079
terms of building that reputation. Because
when you've seen other stories about him,

648
00:43:51,119 --> 00:43:52,920
or even when he did I think
he did a podcast with Pablo Toore was

649
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:57,719
when he did a podcast with you
can kind of like you see the level

650
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:00,159
of humanity there were like at the
beginning of that pabulatory pod. Yes,

651
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:02,679
I remember it was kind of awkward, and it was that was very humanizing

652
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:06,760
for him based off what everything you
know. He was this sort of cult

653
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:10,760
mysterious mystery box hero. I do
wonder, though, had he I think

654
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:15,000
the two things that betrayed him publicly
were and you talked about this a lot

655
00:44:15,079 --> 00:44:17,280
in the book, were his relationships
or the way he went about business with

656
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:22,559
agents and fringe roster players. And
then also just a limited insight he gave

657
00:44:22,599 --> 00:44:25,840
to the media of what he was
thinking. And I do wonder, and

658
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:30,159
I'm curious now you've had written this
book, do you think his tenure could

659
00:44:30,159 --> 00:44:31,679
have played out, or at least
the end of it a lot differently.

660
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:36,760
Had he handled those two elements of
his job a little bit better? I

661
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:39,119
guess maybe not better, because you
could say that he did just fine,

662
00:44:39,199 --> 00:44:45,199
but differently. Yeah, I definitely
think so, because I think the overall

663
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:50,320
factor of why he got pushed out
was I think the flashball moment, to

664
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:53,119
use your term from earlier, when
Jueli Okafour is in that fight in the

665
00:44:53,119 --> 00:44:59,400
streets in Boston and TMZ's reporting on
it and there's an arrest warrant out from

666
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:02,519
him in Boston, and he plays
another game before they even suspend him.

667
00:45:02,599 --> 00:45:07,000
And then when the team announces it, it's in a statement, and no

668
00:45:07,039 --> 00:45:12,320
one speaks publicly before Brett Brown's pregame
press conference scrum at the Guardian, when

669
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:15,559
Sam's at the arena and is still
refusing him to talk from there. I

670
00:45:15,559 --> 00:45:20,199
mean, everything that happened before that, taking new Lands, then taking Joel

671
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:22,280
and Dario and two more guys that
weren't going to come over, and then

672
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:27,199
John and he's running around the streets
of Boston fighting people. Blah blah blah

673
00:45:27,199 --> 00:45:32,320
blah. That's that media swirl.
He never ever, ever took any moment

674
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:37,119
to try to quell that tide and
try to you know, quiet the fireworks

675
00:45:37,119 --> 00:45:40,119
and all that type of stuff.
I really think if he got ahead of

676
00:45:40,119 --> 00:45:45,079
it, because as I've been saying
all along, I've definitely been able to

677
00:45:45,079 --> 00:45:46,480
air it out a little bit more
of late with this book being out.

678
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:52,159
I don't think Sam's plan originally was
to just tank and tank and tank and

679
00:45:52,159 --> 00:45:55,480
tank and tank. Like Joel Embiid
only goes to Philiate three because he did

680
00:45:55,519 --> 00:45:59,400
get hurt. He would have gone
number one in the draft, and I

681
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:02,039
have it in the book. Clauds
officials to this day maintain he broke his

682
00:46:02,079 --> 00:46:06,360
foot in that workout. And then
the Bucks Mark Lasrye told me on the

683
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:09,000
record in the book they weren't taking
Joel because they wanted to make the playoffs.

684
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:13,559
So that's the only reason he even
fell there to three and Philly was

685
00:46:13,599 --> 00:46:17,360
making hires like Todd Ray was a
trainer and Chris Babcock was an assistant from

686
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:22,320
Texas. Who you know twenty sixteen, Kevin Durant was going to be a

687
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:24,480
free agent. They're making those stealthy
moves like the nixt day with the Royal

688
00:46:24,519 --> 00:46:30,559
Ivy and other situations to dip into
free agency in twenty sixteen. So I

689
00:46:30,599 --> 00:46:34,800
think if he was able to get
out on a microphone and talk to people,

690
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:37,639
I mean like like we like my
dinner with them, he was more

691
00:46:37,679 --> 00:46:39,840
than happy to speak off the record
and more than happy to get to know

692
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:45,239
people on background. But that's not
what you know fuels the fire for sports

693
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:52,519
Centers nightly agenda. You know,
you need to actually give not the fans,

694
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:55,199
but you need you need to give
the peanut gallery something chew on and

695
00:46:55,400 --> 00:47:00,280
because he refused to do it.
It allowed all these narratives to come up

696
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:04,840
and ultimately swallowing hole. Yeah,
and there was also what probably wasn't talked

697
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:07,280
about enough in real time is you
mentioned the Joel and Beat injury, like

698
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:12,440
the New Orleans Noel stuff too,
like his debut being deferred a year and

699
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:15,239
then having him and Beat stuff.
Some of that was, yes, they

700
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:17,440
get Dario SARTs, knowing he's not
going to come over right away, but

701
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:21,960
there were just these elements of if
these players were healthy and here the stitchers

702
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:23,679
wouldn't have been as bad, and
like you said, the machinations behind the

703
00:47:23,679 --> 00:47:29,239
scenes where they were putting at least
connections in place to maybe go after these

704
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:34,400
big these big stars in future years. The thing that I guess might have

705
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:37,639
also benefited him too, like would
have been coming on the record and talking

706
00:47:37,679 --> 00:47:40,800
about we recognize that there are three
centers on this roster now, like after

707
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:45,039
the Julia Oka for pick is when
it was like what the hell is going

708
00:47:45,079 --> 00:47:47,079
on here? Like in Bid Noel
and Oka for And so I'm wondering if

709
00:47:47,119 --> 00:47:52,360
that like might have also just been
a tipping point among the many behind the

710
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:54,559
scenes. For sure, I mean, I will say I think the jul

711
00:47:54,679 --> 00:47:59,079
Oka for selection. A lot of
it had to do with the fact that

712
00:47:59,119 --> 00:48:02,079
in Bide broke Is again days before
that draft in twenty fifteen. I mean,

713
00:48:02,119 --> 00:48:07,400
I had Lance Pearson and analytics guy
from that front office in the book

714
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:10,400
saying pretty much that they had to
do it to kind of double down in

715
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:15,239
the case that maybe Joel was going
to be a bust that never play ever,

716
00:48:15,559 --> 00:48:16,760
like that was a real fault on
that front office. I mean,

717
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:20,800
I think they also would have wanted
to take Chris tops prezingis. As we

718
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:22,840
also be tail in the book,
Andy Miller has representative at the time was

719
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:27,960
not going to let that happen,
and and the other behind the scenes stuff

720
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:30,960
got back to ownership and got back
to the league office too, like that

721
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:35,920
you mentioned he was. He refused
to negotiate off that four year non guaranteed

722
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:38,719
quote unquote. Hanky Special was so
many of those guys. And there were

723
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:43,679
situations like when he traded for Andre
Carlinko with the nets. You know,

724
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:46,719
Hinky told Billy King the GM at
the time that they were just gonna wave

725
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:51,920
Andre and allowing to test you know, the veteran buyout market type situation,

726
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:53,960
and the Sixers were gonna get their
second round picks back, and everyone's gonna

727
00:48:53,960 --> 00:49:00,519
wipe their hands clean and move on. But Billy was an adamant that Carolinko

728
00:49:00,639 --> 00:49:06,400
report to them, and Carolinko had
his wife was having a really difficult pregnancy

729
00:49:06,599 --> 00:49:09,719
in New York and he wasn't going
to uproot his wife from her doctors to

730
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:14,320
go play for the Sixers that were
consider one of the worst teams of all

731
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:17,119
time, right, and they were
finding him to show up to the point

732
00:49:17,159 --> 00:49:21,840
where they ended up having to go
to the players. You didn't have arbitration

733
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:24,519
with his agents because they were just
like finding this guy who didn't want to

734
00:49:24,519 --> 00:49:29,480
report there. They had already conducted
the trade on the like conduit that he

735
00:49:29,559 --> 00:49:32,400
wouldn't play for them. That type
of stuff definitely got back to the league

736
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:37,039
office for sure as well. There
is and I'm sure I'll have many more

737
00:49:37,119 --> 00:49:40,599
questions about the actual Sixers. But
you take a look at the NBA at

738
00:49:40,679 --> 00:49:44,440
large a time, but you zero
in on a few franchises a bunch like

739
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:46,400
it's Milwaukee, it's Boston, it's
Sacramento, it's Phoenix, it's the Lakers.

740
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:52,360
So that's another reason to look at
this book. I think what was

741
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:54,599
interesting is I guess I didn't realize
or you realize in real time that all

742
00:49:54,599 --> 00:49:58,760
this stuff is happening at once.
But now that we're removed you look back,

743
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:00,159
it's like, oh, all this
was opening at once, where this

744
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:06,280
wasn't just the Sixers being bad.
There were these other tanking structures in place.

745
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:10,679
I think Phillies was the most flagrant
and deliberate of the bunch. But

746
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:15,599
I'm wondering, of all these other
teams, which one were you most interested

747
00:50:15,599 --> 00:50:19,519
by when looking back at at this
era. Yeah, you're you hit the

748
00:50:19,599 --> 00:50:22,039
nail on the head. I think
I wrote it out in the book particularly,

749
00:50:22,119 --> 00:50:25,559
but for those who haven't read it
yet, there was a there was

750
00:50:25,599 --> 00:50:30,400
a clear emphasis from a lot of
different analytical minded executives around the league that

751
00:50:30,519 --> 00:50:36,440
this twenty fourteen class was considered to
be the draft class with Joel and obviously

752
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:38,440
Andrew Wiggins and Jabari Parker were the
headlines at the time, but all the

753
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:43,000
way on down to Julius Randall,
it was considered a seven player draft where

754
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:45,440
it was the best class since two
thousand and three. That was the hype.

755
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:50,199
Remember, Wiggins and Parker were on
a side covers and slam covers and

756
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:53,000
whatever, and who was running the
league at the time, but the Miami

757
00:50:53,039 --> 00:50:57,519
Heat, who had three of the
top five guys from that other three class.

758
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:00,719
So all these all these people,
Rob Henning, get In, Orlando,

759
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:04,880
Ryan McDonough and Phoenix, David Griffin
and Cleveland, even the Bucks,

760
00:51:05,119 --> 00:51:07,000
like you mentioned, they were originally
planning to tank that year, but when

761
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:10,480
they had a couple of injuries,
they sure as hell flipped a switch and

762
00:51:10,519 --> 00:51:15,880
immediately started taking at twenty fourteen class
because they all thought, we're not going

763
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:20,159
to beat Miami anyway. Let's get
the next generation of these guys and by

764
00:51:20,199 --> 00:51:22,519
the time they're on the outs,
by the time they're in the you know,

765
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:25,960
the twilight of their primes will be
here and we'll be contending. And

766
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:31,400
I think Orlandos are really fascinating an
example because it didn't work out, but

767
00:51:32,199 --> 00:51:36,800
Boston as well. I mean,
I think Boston until this last couple of

768
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:40,360
years, they did it as well
as anybody. They bottomed out really really,

769
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:44,599
really hard. Then they still had
other pieces to trade off with Ray

770
00:51:44,639 --> 00:51:49,360
gen Rondo. But the trick that
the Celtics had in their back pocket was

771
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:52,920
they had those nets picks. Jason
Tatum and Jaylen Brown were picked with those

772
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:55,440
Nets picks, and they were able
to swing a deal at the twenty fifteen

773
00:51:55,480 --> 00:52:00,960
trade deadline to get Isaiah Thomas and
jump right back into the offs. And

774
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:07,039
they hired their own young analytical mind
to developing coach, Brad Stevens from Butler

775
00:52:07,119 --> 00:52:09,239
and Pluckton out of the out of
the college ranks and kind of gave them

776
00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:14,400
full carte blanche to run that program. I think the Lakers are also really

777
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:17,440
fascinating too, because, unlike Boston, their rival from eight to ten,

778
00:52:19,119 --> 00:52:22,360
they refused to rebuild off the Kobe
right, even though he tore his achilles,

779
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:27,159
even though he hurt his knee and
hurts his shoulder, they still kept

780
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:31,800
trying to build a contender around this
guy's aging body and it never worked out.

781
00:52:31,679 --> 00:52:36,039
At the point where the Lakers were
the worst team in the NBA from

782
00:52:36,679 --> 00:52:39,000
twenty seventeen, that five year stretch, they were worse than Philly by far.

783
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:43,400
They were worse than Boston, Orlando, Phoenix, sacrament and Milwaukee,

784
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:46,000
Cleveland. Whatever it was the Lakers. But that's why tanking, I think

785
00:52:46,079 --> 00:52:50,679
is so prevalent in today's NBA.
If you want to get these stars like

786
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:54,719
Lebron, Wade and Botched and Beat
or Randall or whoever to win to ultimately

787
00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:59,440
win a championship, you have to
get them through the draft, because you're

788
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:01,599
not the Lake Carus who can be
the worst team for five years and still

789
00:53:01,599 --> 00:53:06,239
get Lebron in free agency in twenty
eighteen, then Anthony Davis wants to come

790
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:08,960
play for you, and you win
the title. Like everyone else, doesn't

791
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:12,880
have that margin for error, Which
is why I think it was really interesting

792
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:15,360
to include the Lakers futility and all
that. Yeah, there's was sort of

793
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:20,280
like an accidentally on purpose situation right
where it's they were trying to build a

794
00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:22,920
contender around Kobe. But I feel
like if you had to put like gave

795
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:25,239
them truth theorem, there's no way
that they could have thought like any of

796
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:29,599
those rosters were going to be good
at those times. Well, in twenty

797
00:53:29,639 --> 00:53:32,599
twelve thirty one, they truly thought
limit title for sure. Then they lost

798
00:53:32,679 --> 00:53:37,679
White in free agency in twenty thirteen, and they did think, all right,

799
00:53:37,719 --> 00:53:40,199
we'll piece together a couple of one
year contracts and we'll put together this

800
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:45,360
roster for thirteen fourteen. Kobe will
come back when his Achilles, we'll make

801
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:47,400
the playoffs a little bit, we'll
get some momentum, and then we'll sign

802
00:53:47,519 --> 00:53:51,079
Lebron and Mellow in twenty fourteen free
agency. We'll be good to go.

803
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:55,000
They definitely had that hubrisk, But
as I wrote in the book, given

804
00:53:55,079 --> 00:54:00,119
Kobe that big two year contract extension
before the season even started ended up shooting

805
00:54:00,119 --> 00:54:05,559
themselves in the foot anyway, because
they didn't have two MAX cap spaces to

806
00:54:05,559 --> 00:54:09,400
get Lebron and Mellow, and Lebron
was only going somewhere for his full max

807
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:15,039
contract and he wasn't going to the
Lakers without Carmelo, So they kind of

808
00:54:15,119 --> 00:54:17,639
ruined that opportunity before they even gotten
the door to pitch those guys in the

809
00:54:17,639 --> 00:54:22,039
first place. Yeah. You mentioned
in the book too that Kobe might have

810
00:54:22,079 --> 00:54:24,320
accepted a two year deal with roughly
half of what they offered him right out

811
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:28,760
of the gate. So not the
best negotiating takets on the Lakers end.

812
00:54:29,199 --> 00:54:32,280
Of all these teams that uzzered on
specifically, aside from the Sixers, was

813
00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:37,719
there one that was particularly challenged challenging
to get like the you know, the

814
00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:40,239
more honest low down of or what
was the most challenging Which team was the

815
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:45,000
most challenging to report on throughout this
book. The Lakers stuff was hard to

816
00:54:45,039 --> 00:54:50,880
get a hold of, like a
true like inside, like this person was

817
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:54,000
in the room, because the Lakers
aren't like a family. The Lakers are

818
00:54:54,079 --> 00:54:59,599
this big fraternity of oh, you
played for the Wine and Gold, like

819
00:54:59,639 --> 00:55:02,960
we you know, we hold up
this logo that the Banners, the Busses

820
00:55:04,079 --> 00:55:10,519
like, it's definitely this super interconnected
like they're they're they're sensitive to the lake.

821
00:55:10,599 --> 00:55:14,360
I mean, if you talk to
any Lakers fan about their team,

822
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:17,039
right, they're like they're holding they
hold it a little more and higher regard

823
00:55:17,039 --> 00:55:20,960
than the average fan does to their
team. I think I think that the

824
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:22,960
same thing applies. There were a
lot of people for the Lakers didn't want

825
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:27,800
to talk because they knew it was
like a black eye on that franch especially

826
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:31,159
because you not only was a Kobe's
you know, final few years and obviously

827
00:55:31,159 --> 00:55:37,199
they felt like they were souring,
uh this this opportunity to prop him up

828
00:55:37,239 --> 00:55:39,840
and to you know, ride him
out into the sunset. But it was

829
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:44,239
right after Jim Buss died too,
and that that kind of sent the franchise

830
00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:47,199
into a tailspin. And those details
I think hurt a lot of people,

831
00:55:47,639 --> 00:55:52,159
and a lot of people didn't really
want to talk. So I did,

832
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:54,159
you know, ultimately get some good
stuff, as we believe it to already

833
00:55:54,400 --> 00:56:00,639
some really interesting practice scenes from like
the Kobe uh Farman told the paper scene,

834
00:56:00,679 --> 00:56:02,480
I think I have that, you
know, in fuller detail than anyone's

835
00:56:02,519 --> 00:56:07,599
happening for the Chris came in on
the bench in Cleveland. That mean where

836
00:56:07,639 --> 00:56:09,760
he's lying on the bench and you
know, gets photoshop left and right on

837
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:15,880
social media, other Steve Nash details. But it was a challenge I think

838
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:19,079
for a while to get some microstoffteff
and on. Yeah, that was the

839
00:56:19,079 --> 00:56:22,920
two of the things I highlighted from
among the Lakers section was I don't think

840
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:27,400
I I from Afar, I just
can't get excited about like practices and scrimmages.

841
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:30,039
But the Lakers and even their players
like seemed to really read a lot

842
00:56:30,119 --> 00:56:35,320
into what Kobe Bryant was doing in
practice. Was there an element of like

843
00:56:35,519 --> 00:56:37,559
do you look at that having reported
this and be like okay, wow,

844
00:56:37,639 --> 00:56:40,920
like seriously, its just I'm just
looking at it like it's practice, And

845
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:45,159
they just seemed to be putting so
much weight into what he was doing in

846
00:56:45,239 --> 00:56:49,199
practice against guys by his own claim, who didn't block in the league.

847
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:52,599
It's a great point that you just
made. Yeah, I think, well,

848
00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:57,199
there's one thing to keep in mind
is that for those last two years

849
00:56:57,320 --> 00:57:00,480
the head coach was Byron Scott,
who comes from the pat rye you know,

850
00:57:00,599 --> 00:57:04,760
coaching tree, and practice did matter
a lot to those types of guys,

851
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:07,320
like they they rolled the ball out
and played fives and wanted to scrimmage

852
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:14,440
and like make these guys better.
And Kobe was one of those types of

853
00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:16,679
people that whenever he set foot between
those lines, and it was three on

854
00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:19,719
three, two on two, whatever, he wanted to kill who was on

855
00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:22,599
the other side, it didn't matter
if they were a teammate either. So

856
00:57:22,639 --> 00:57:27,480
I think that definitely brought the degree
of competition up the level. And also

857
00:57:28,159 --> 00:57:30,840
I think he was trying to prove
it to himself too. Obviously he's no

858
00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:34,800
longer with us, but I think
if he was and you would directed some

859
00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:37,000
true seramon to him, I think
he probably would have told you that he

860
00:57:37,119 --> 00:57:39,599
was trying to prove it to himself
that he still had it. He had

861
00:57:39,599 --> 00:57:44,719
never really had injury issues until that
run that he had that we mentioned the

862
00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:46,480
achilles on the knee of and the
shoulder, and every single year he'd worked

863
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:51,280
on his way back only to get
hurt again. It's like pretty amazing that

864
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:54,400
that fifteen sixteen, that like magical
last year he had, and then with

865
00:57:54,519 --> 00:57:59,159
that sixty point game, obviously it's
pretty amazing that he didn't get hurt and

866
00:57:59,159 --> 00:58:01,079
that he I mean, he sat
a lot of games, but the three

867
00:58:01,199 --> 00:58:07,679
years prior considering, I think it's
like no short feat that he actually played

868
00:58:07,719 --> 00:58:09,880
in that sixty point game and he
was healthy, let alone put up fifty

869
00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:15,000
points. So when you look at
that the tail end of that Lakers era,

870
00:58:15,159 --> 00:58:17,400
it does seem there was some self
acknowledgement on their part because of the

871
00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:22,800
way they structured Byron Scott's contract that
Okay, this is like placeholder stuff.

872
00:58:22,840 --> 00:58:23,960
We don't really know what we're in
for, but we're probably not going to

873
00:58:24,039 --> 00:58:29,960
be great. The thing that I
found boys, it was the most disarming

874
00:58:30,039 --> 00:58:31,840
quote because I wasn't expecting it,
but D'Angel Russell just comes right out and

875
00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:37,559
says he sucked. Is I think
was the quote from there was that a

876
00:58:37,599 --> 00:58:40,039
moment where you're like, back,
quote has to go in the book because

877
00:58:40,039 --> 00:58:44,400
he said DANNELRS has some like really
more good, intricate stuff that he says

878
00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:46,159
in the book. But that was
one where it was of everyone you talked

879
00:58:46,159 --> 00:58:49,920
to on the record, a lot
of people were able to play both sides,

880
00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:52,719
even when they were critical or though
some of the quotes on the King's

881
00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:55,280
front office in here, my god, read this book. Just you think

882
00:58:55,320 --> 00:59:00,079
the Kings are dysfunctional? Read this
book. But a lot of shit it

883
00:59:00,119 --> 00:59:02,320
and all the things, but the
DeAngelo Russell stuff. Are you surprised that

884
00:59:02,360 --> 00:59:07,159
he was just so open about saying, yeah, Bayard's got sucked. Yeah,

885
00:59:07,199 --> 00:59:10,119
I mean especially the backstory behind that
also is I took a bus down

886
00:59:10,119 --> 00:59:15,800
to Philly last January twenty twenty,
right before the pandemic happens, and I

887
00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:20,440
went to Drexel for the warriors Tuesday
night shoot around or whatever it was,

888
00:59:20,760 --> 00:59:23,079
and I sat. I got there
a little early, and then it turns

889
00:59:23,119 --> 00:59:27,599
out because I told us that they
were gonna have media availability before practice,

890
00:59:27,679 --> 00:59:30,039
turns out the Warriors got held up
in transit get to wait for like a

891
00:59:30,039 --> 00:59:34,159
couple of hours. We get there, they let us in and de Angel

892
00:59:34,239 --> 00:59:37,559
doesn't want to talk because Kobe had
just died and he was feeling, you

893
00:59:37,599 --> 00:59:40,119
know, they didn't want to talk
about it, so then show up pregame.

894
00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:45,320
He doesn't want to talk till postgame. So I'm waiting for Dan.

895
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:47,159
I'm in this arena, you know, I already took the bus down and

896
00:59:47,199 --> 00:59:50,440
went to the night before, and
now I'm at the game, like it's

897
00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:52,119
a free ticket to go to see
a basketball game. But like, I'm

898
00:59:52,159 --> 00:59:57,320
only there to talk to de Angelo
and I'm only getting him one on one

899
00:59:57,920 --> 01:00:01,639
as he's like undressing at his lock
and a PR guy was like, you

900
01:00:01,679 --> 01:00:05,079
can't talk to that now. I
said, oh, like Raymond Ridgerd said,

901
01:00:05,119 --> 01:00:06,960
the PR guy for the lawyer said
I could, and he was like

902
01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:10,440
all right, fine, And D'Angelo
was cool with it, and he said

903
01:00:10,440 --> 01:00:14,159
to me at one point like I
don't want to say much more to put

904
01:00:14,159 --> 01:00:16,880
Byron Scott on the last, but
I just think he was an idiot.

905
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:21,239
I think I think it's what the
quote was, because he really it was

906
01:00:21,280 --> 01:00:25,039
a huge underscore of that season,
an undercurrent, if you will, to

907
01:00:25,079 --> 01:00:29,320
the whole Kobe stuff that like Byron
Scott was kind of trying to mess with

908
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:31,599
d'anzel's head to try to put him
in place, and kind of like haze

909
01:00:31,639 --> 01:00:35,639
him a little bit, like he
was still a player and he was hazing

910
01:00:35,719 --> 01:00:38,000
the rookie almost because Byron Scott was
a Lakers point guard and he wanted to

911
01:00:38,639 --> 01:00:43,400
There's already all this talk in the
draft and in the whole year prior that

912
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:45,599
D'Angelo might not have been mentally prepared
to be in the NBA. It was

913
01:00:45,639 --> 01:00:50,519
a little immature kid that was That
was the word that was being circulated among

914
01:00:50,559 --> 01:00:53,159
a lot of NBA personnel. So
I think Byron took it personally that like,

915
01:00:53,480 --> 01:00:59,000
I'm here to grill this kid and
to make this kid into, you

916
01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:01,199
know, a man. And I
don't think that's how the NBA works anymore.

917
01:01:01,199 --> 01:01:06,239
Obviously, It's like circa nineteen eighty
nine. Yeah. Yeah, we're

918
01:01:06,280 --> 01:01:09,840
in this era where you know,
teams are catering their franchises to make these

919
01:01:09,840 --> 01:01:14,000
guys want to stick around long term, let alone trying to needle them and

920
01:01:14,079 --> 01:01:16,320
whatever. Sure it works every now
and then, you know, Pop a

921
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:21,679
Bitch obviously historically has been great at
using the media to get to his players.

922
01:01:21,719 --> 01:01:25,880
I think the Nurse has done it
pretty effectively in Toronto. But yeah,

923
01:01:27,239 --> 01:01:30,199
Byron Scott was as sitting duck.
No, he was never gonna last

924
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:34,679
longer than two years, and be
he didn't have a lot of support from

925
01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:37,360
the non like people who just wanted
him to be there with Kobe and rioting

926
01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:40,360
out. People knew he was kind
of a lame duck coach, and I

927
01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:45,039
think the Angelo and a lot of
players soft through it too, was there

928
01:01:45,320 --> 01:01:47,480
and I'll premise it's mine. I
think my favorite like extended moment in the

929
01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:52,280
book is the Phoenix Suns bus scene
along the trade deadline. It's a reminder

930
01:01:52,360 --> 01:01:55,920
that there are the reporters who after
the freed to talk along lines of all

931
01:01:55,960 --> 01:02:00,199
the trades that didn't happen, or
the trades that happened, how how long

932
01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:02,239
they were in the air. But
this was one of those situations where you

933
01:02:02,239 --> 01:02:07,079
remember that there are players who will
be genuinely shocked by what happens in those

934
01:02:07,119 --> 01:02:09,840
moments because they came without warning.
That was just one of my favorite anecdotes

935
01:02:09,880 --> 01:02:13,639
from the book. So again,
by the book, what was your do

936
01:02:13,679 --> 01:02:16,079
you have like a favorite moment or
one of your favorite moments that you were

937
01:02:16,079 --> 01:02:19,440
able to include the book or maybe
even in you were doing the interview or

938
01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:22,480
you found out this information you pieced
together the anecdote and you were like,

939
01:02:22,559 --> 01:02:24,760
oh, this is gonna hit in
the book. Yeah, the Sun's thing

940
01:02:24,800 --> 01:02:29,559
is awesome being that. To give
a little more insight to the listeners,

941
01:02:29,719 --> 01:02:32,639
they're like, they're literally idoling in
the suns Arena waiting to take off to

942
01:02:32,639 --> 01:02:37,159
the airport as that buzzer, that
ticker is getting closer and closer to the

943
01:02:37,199 --> 01:02:40,800
deadline, and Isaiah, someone else
gets traded, someone else gets straded,

944
01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:45,119
someone else getstraded, and finally the
Sun's even rallied together on the bus and

945
01:02:45,199 --> 01:02:47,719
like put up their hands in the
hotel and sound like this is our group.

946
01:02:47,719 --> 01:02:52,079
We're finishing the years strong. And
someone goes, oh, Isaiah Thomas,

947
01:02:52,119 --> 01:02:55,039
you got traded too. So the
scene that I think is the craziest

948
01:02:55,039 --> 01:02:59,920
scene of all. We kind of
tease some kink stuff earlier, the fact

949
01:03:00,119 --> 01:03:06,480
that there was already speculation from the
second that the King's hired Pete Delassandra to

950
01:03:06,480 --> 01:03:09,039
be their GM again, one of
these other young analytical minor executives like we've

951
01:03:09,039 --> 01:03:13,880
been talking about. They hired him
a month or so after they hired Michael

952
01:03:13,880 --> 01:03:17,639
Malone to be their head coach,
and then immediately started the firestorm of will

953
01:03:17,880 --> 01:03:22,920
Mike Malone last. It's a pretty
tried and true troupe if you hire an

954
01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:29,280
executive after the coach, like will
that executive want to keep that coach.

955
01:03:29,320 --> 01:03:32,039
So those whispers were swirling all year
long. Then they trade for Rudy Gay

956
01:03:32,519 --> 01:03:36,760
and it starts this win now clock
on that situation, which they shouldn't have

957
01:03:36,800 --> 01:03:38,559
had. Michael Malone took that job
thinking they had a two year window and

958
01:03:38,639 --> 01:03:42,679
make the playoffs. So they get
to that summer when they didn't make the

959
01:03:42,679 --> 01:03:45,719
playoffs, they're feeling all this pressure
and George Carl starts to be the loudest

960
01:03:45,800 --> 01:03:50,880
name being whispered as a potential Michael
Malone replacement. He had a connection with

961
01:03:51,239 --> 01:03:57,159
Pete Alsandro and another King's advisor,
Chris Mullen, who they both went to

962
01:03:57,199 --> 01:04:00,119
Saint John's, and there was a
connection with George Carl with the Warriors,

963
01:04:00,519 --> 01:04:04,760
with Kars Molin and all that type
of stuff. So flash forward to the

964
01:04:04,840 --> 01:04:11,159
summer of twenty four team, which
six months before Michael Mullen gets fired,

965
01:04:12,239 --> 01:04:15,400
their coaching staff is out to launch
in Vegas Summer League, and for anyone

966
01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:18,760
who's ever been to the strip in
Las Vegas, you know there's thousands of

967
01:04:18,840 --> 01:04:23,719
restaurants on the strip, literally thousands, And at Summer League, every team

968
01:04:23,760 --> 01:04:26,639
was put up at their own hotel, and you know, you can bump

969
01:04:26,679 --> 01:04:30,360
it into literally anyone all over Las
Vegas is sometimes an NBA person. It's

970
01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:35,199
the number one reason why I go
every year, Just an amazing like playground

971
01:04:35,280 --> 01:04:39,840
to meet anybody who's ever been affiliated
with the league. But sure enough,

972
01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:42,960
as the King's coaching staff hearing all
this noise for a year, at this

973
01:04:43,039 --> 01:04:45,760
point, they're out to lunch at
this restaurant called law Pesheria. I forget

974
01:04:45,760 --> 01:04:48,920
what restaurant it was at. I
forget what hotel it was in, but

975
01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:55,199
law Pesheria. They're kind of there's
this air and already that like they need

976
01:04:55,239 --> 01:04:58,000
to win Summer League to get the
pressure off their back, which like,

977
01:04:58,079 --> 01:05:00,599
no one needs to win Summer League. Summer it's a hotel if nothing,

978
01:05:00,840 --> 01:05:04,880
Yeah, work on exhibition, like
it's just to make money and develop young

979
01:05:04,920 --> 01:05:09,559
guys or whatever. So as they're
feeling that pressure, hearing George Carl's name,

980
01:05:10,000 --> 01:05:13,760
as they're walking out of the lack
of Pressureia who is walking into that

981
01:05:13,880 --> 01:05:18,239
very same restaurant. The background at
Dday, the King's owner Chris Mallen and

982
01:05:18,320 --> 01:05:23,079
George Carl, And it's just like
you can't draw up that a scene,

983
01:05:23,159 --> 01:05:27,639
like it's just something that happened in
real life, and it's unbelievable that it

984
01:05:27,719 --> 01:05:30,920
did, and sure enough foreshadowed what
happens, you know, a couple months

985
01:05:30,000 --> 01:05:35,280
later, Michael Malone gets fired and
the replacement was very much George Carl.

986
01:05:35,400 --> 01:05:41,119
So that stuff is just like one
page out of many of the King's crazy,

987
01:05:41,159 --> 01:05:44,360
crazy, crazy chaos. Yeah,
the Kings are a curriceature of a

988
01:05:44,360 --> 01:05:47,079
caricature, but that was a Yeah, that scene was wild. Have your

989
01:05:47,320 --> 01:05:53,280
after writing and reporting on this book, has your impressions or feelings on tanking

990
01:05:53,360 --> 01:05:55,760
change at all or I guess it's
impossible for them not to have changed.

991
01:05:55,800 --> 01:06:00,320
How is writing this book impacted your
view of tanking in the NBA. I

992
01:06:00,480 --> 01:06:04,960
think it's just really doubled down the
fact that, you know, especially as

993
01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:09,199
the league has grown and evolved more
into this arms race of just trying to

994
01:06:09,239 --> 01:06:13,440
paara superstars together. The only way
for a lot of these teams to get

995
01:06:13,440 --> 01:06:16,519
them is through the draft, and
any team you only have three avenues,

996
01:06:16,639 --> 01:06:20,320
right, It's the draft, through
free agency, through trade, and if

997
01:06:20,320 --> 01:06:24,400
you want to sign someone in free
agency, or if you want to trade

998
01:06:24,400 --> 01:06:27,119
for them like the Lakers David with
a NFTE Davis and hope they'll stay for

999
01:06:27,199 --> 01:06:30,159
you long term. The easiest way
to do so is to already have an

1000
01:06:30,199 --> 01:06:33,920
All Star on your roster, and
the easiest route for anyone to get one

1001
01:06:34,119 --> 01:06:39,000
is through the draft. And I
think it's only it's it's become more and

1002
01:06:39,039 --> 01:06:42,280
more clear this last season where you
see, you know, James Harder just

1003
01:06:42,320 --> 01:06:44,800
says I want to go to Brooklyn, and sure enough he lands up in

1004
01:06:44,800 --> 01:06:48,679
Brooklyn. And the Rockets have no
other have no other alternative but to be

1005
01:06:48,719 --> 01:06:53,719
the worst team in the league.
Obviously, they've been criticized for the return

1006
01:06:53,760 --> 01:06:56,400
package, and maybe they could have
done a little bit better and put themselves

1007
01:06:56,400 --> 01:07:00,599
in more of a contending capacity.
But they're Houston, and as much as

1008
01:07:00,639 --> 01:07:03,920
Houston's the number four medium mark or
wherever it is in America, no player

1009
01:07:04,000 --> 01:07:09,079
is thinking of Houston as a free
agent destination. They were thinking of it

1010
01:07:09,079 --> 01:07:12,239
when they had James Harden and Darrel
Murray pushing the chips in the middle of

1011
01:07:12,239 --> 01:07:16,480
the table. It's the same thing
in Orlando, in Milwaukee and Detroit even

1012
01:07:16,519 --> 01:07:20,599
more so, like these markets that
aren't going to be a marquee and aren't

1013
01:07:20,599 --> 01:07:26,079
going to be throwing, you know, a player into the upper echelon of

1014
01:07:26,119 --> 01:07:29,920
superstardom. You're only going to get
that guy if you land them in the

1015
01:07:30,000 --> 01:07:33,840
draft, or you have somebody there
like Jannie for example, who then you

1016
01:07:33,840 --> 01:07:36,920
can trade for Drew Howiday and then
Drew Howiday will sign his extension to be

1017
01:07:38,039 --> 01:07:42,760
there. So I think as the
NBA has continued to become more and more

1018
01:07:42,800 --> 01:07:46,679
of this stockpiling of players, I
think tanking makes more and more sense you

1019
01:07:46,880 --> 01:07:51,679
and I think the shift in lottery
odds posting ky era obviously, and then

1020
01:07:51,760 --> 01:07:56,000
even now with the play in tournament, I do think it diswades tanking,

1021
01:07:56,039 --> 01:07:58,599
and we kind of saw that effect. At least they are more teams competing

1022
01:07:58,599 --> 01:08:00,320
for something to the end of the
year. My two questions on this are,

1023
01:08:00,559 --> 01:08:04,159
though, do you think that could
have more organically happened where you know,

1024
01:08:04,239 --> 01:08:08,840
a good trunk of this book is
kind of taking place where the Warriors

1025
01:08:08,880 --> 01:08:13,519
exist or the Miami Heat with Lebron
exist when there's not that fore gone title

1026
01:08:13,559 --> 01:08:15,000
threat, which we don't have that
dynasty now, and even if you look

1027
01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:18,720
at the nets, is one looking
at the ages of those players, they're

1028
01:08:18,720 --> 01:08:21,439
not built to last, and then
looking at how these other teams have cycled

1029
01:08:21,439 --> 01:08:25,920
through championship windows so quickly. They're
not built to last. And so the

1030
01:08:25,960 --> 01:08:29,920
idea that teams aren't just looking at
it as well, why even shry because

1031
01:08:30,039 --> 01:08:33,640
Team X exist? Could that have
organically dissuaded tanking? And then do you

1032
01:08:33,720 --> 01:08:40,920
think that the shift in lottery odds
now has irrespective of tanking, has that

1033
01:08:41,039 --> 01:08:45,000
hurt smaller markets ability to rebuild?
Because, as you argue the three ways

1034
01:08:45,039 --> 01:08:47,079
to get a star, the draft
is the easiest way, but I think

1035
01:08:47,119 --> 01:08:50,279
for certain markets they probably view it
as the only way to get a star.

1036
01:08:51,000 --> 01:08:56,880
For sure, I think the odds
definitely played more into I mean,

1037
01:08:56,960 --> 01:09:00,600
everyone will admit anyone who plays the
lottery admits that it is kind of a

1038
01:09:00,840 --> 01:09:03,319
bit of an exercise and utility,
being that it ultimately does come down to

1039
01:09:03,439 --> 01:09:08,399
chance. I mean. Sam Presty
opened his end of year press conference on

1040
01:09:08,520 --> 01:09:12,399
Zoom a couple of weeks back saying, for like, get literally went on

1041
01:09:12,439 --> 01:09:15,880
a half hour preamble before we took
any questions, talking about you know,

1042
01:09:15,920 --> 01:09:20,279
the measured or approach and how this
ultimately does play risk, you risk and

1043
01:09:20,439 --> 01:09:25,079
chance, and that does play a
big factor in your ultimate success. But

1044
01:09:25,319 --> 01:09:28,439
you know, you scout and you
draft well and you mitigate those factors.

1045
01:09:28,479 --> 01:09:32,039
But I mean, we still saw
all those teams play the lottery because this

1046
01:09:32,159 --> 01:09:35,800
twenty twenty one class is considered to
be the best Classes four team that we

1047
01:09:35,880 --> 01:09:41,239
talked about in the book. So
the worst team Houston, there's still guaranteed

1048
01:09:41,239 --> 01:09:44,760
the top five pick. Those bottom
two three teams that are only getting a

1049
01:09:44,800 --> 01:09:48,319
fourteen percent chance now they're only getting
that they have still have a chance of

1050
01:09:48,399 --> 01:09:53,039
getting six and seven where you're still
getting you know, Jamal Murray went seven.

1051
01:09:54,119 --> 01:09:58,239
Now there's still a lot of players
available, and the higher you get

1052
01:09:58,279 --> 01:10:00,880
an opportunity to pick, the higher
the likelihood is that you're going to get

1053
01:10:00,880 --> 01:10:05,439
it a franchise changing guy. Obviously, the playing tournament forced teams like Washington

1054
01:10:05,479 --> 01:10:11,880
and Sacramento to not forced, but
encourage them to chase it. But I

1055
01:10:11,960 --> 01:10:16,399
still think as long as your record
is dependent it is, as long as

1056
01:10:16,439 --> 01:10:20,079
you're draft positioning is dependent on your
record, we're still going to see teams

1057
01:10:20,079 --> 01:10:25,960
do it. Because in basketball,
you know, it's like one player means

1058
01:10:26,000 --> 01:10:29,520
so much more in basketball than any
other sports, as much as the quarterback

1059
01:10:29,560 --> 01:10:31,520
and the NFL is considered gonna be
the you know, the most important position

1060
01:10:31,560 --> 01:10:35,680
in sports. Lebron has made the
finals eight or nine to the last ten

1061
01:10:35,760 --> 01:10:39,560
years. Whatever it is. As
much as it's a testament to him,

1062
01:10:39,600 --> 01:10:42,840
it's a testament to how much agency
one player can have on the court.

1063
01:10:42,880 --> 01:10:45,520
Because they play the both sides to
the court, they can play the whole

1064
01:10:45,520 --> 01:10:47,880
game. You don't see that in
any other team function. And I think

1065
01:10:48,279 --> 01:10:53,439
that you know, true absolute power
that those guys have. Sure, we're

1066
01:10:53,439 --> 01:10:56,479
gonna see teams, not we're gonna
see teams, you know, straight away

1067
01:10:56,520 --> 01:10:59,399
and try to get into playing tournament
or looked at those odds and say,

1068
01:10:59,520 --> 01:11:02,039
all right, it's not as guarantee
of an opportunity, but we're still going

1069
01:11:02,079 --> 01:11:05,399
to see teams do it. Especially
we're going to see teams tanking down the

1070
01:11:05,439 --> 01:11:10,039
stretch too, because that first year
in twenty nineteen, when the Lakers jumped

1071
01:11:10,079 --> 01:11:13,880
up to four and the Grizzles turns
up to two, those teams moved because

1072
01:11:14,000 --> 01:11:16,880
the lower odd the flattening of the
odds, it gives those teams in the

1073
01:11:16,880 --> 01:11:20,479
middle of the lottery even higher of
a change, So it actually incentive bysed

1074
01:11:20,520 --> 01:11:27,279
teams in that tend to like seven
range in the lottery to actually lose more

1075
01:11:27,319 --> 01:11:30,920
games on the scratch. So there
are some complicated factors. I think a

1076
01:11:30,920 --> 01:11:32,680
lot of there's no way they just
snap their fingers and tank them to solve

1077
01:11:34,119 --> 01:11:39,279
new questions before I get you out
of here is do you think that we

1078
01:11:39,319 --> 01:11:43,319
will see One of the things I
think rubbed people around way about the Hinky

1079
01:11:43,359 --> 01:11:45,279
stuff was it was whether he set
out to do it for so long.

1080
01:11:45,319 --> 01:11:47,960
It was clearly more than his one
year tank job. It was set up

1081
01:11:47,960 --> 01:11:50,760
to do that. Do you think
we'll ever see because as you mentioned,

1082
01:11:50,760 --> 01:11:55,079
the odds are still in favor of
losing regardless of them being flattened. Do

1083
01:11:55,119 --> 01:11:59,760
you think that we'll ever see someone
even push it close to that extreme again,

1084
01:12:00,479 --> 01:12:01,840
or do you think one the NBA
wouldn't let it get to that point

1085
01:12:01,920 --> 01:12:05,399
or has those flatten dodds Where it's
gone from twenty five percent when you have

1086
01:12:05,479 --> 01:12:11,079
the league's worth record to fourteen percent
is a pretty substantial difference. They've disincentivized

1087
01:12:11,119 --> 01:12:15,359
that from happening to the extreme that
Sam Hinky brought it in Philly, we

1088
01:12:15,479 --> 01:12:18,640
might see, okay, see,
I mean obviously the Thunder have Shay Gildas

1089
01:12:18,720 --> 01:12:23,840
Alexander and the piece that the six
has never had in those early years.

1090
01:12:23,880 --> 01:12:29,640
But we'll see. There's conflicting intel
on the league depending on who you talk

1091
01:12:29,680 --> 01:12:33,560
to about how committed the Thunder are
to this timeline and say, you know

1092
01:12:33,800 --> 01:12:39,159
he is. He's a borderline all
star right now. So will he ultimately

1093
01:12:39,199 --> 01:12:41,760
speed this thing up? I don't
know. Like we saw at Boston,

1094
01:12:42,439 --> 01:12:45,880
the Thunder can't take seventeen first round
picks over the next three years and put

1095
01:12:45,880 --> 01:12:48,680
them all on one roster. They
just can't do that. So they have

1096
01:12:48,800 --> 01:12:54,880
the opportunity too because they have those
picks. But will they start to package

1097
01:12:54,920 --> 01:12:58,479
those and try to trade for a
Bradley Dealers something. I don't know,

1098
01:12:59,000 --> 01:13:02,920
but I think the Thunderer the clearest
position to do. So it's just gonna

1099
01:13:02,960 --> 01:13:08,039
be, you know, a couple
of factors here in there that swim them

1100
01:13:08,000 --> 01:13:10,399
in one direction. I'm sorry,
I don't remember what was your second question,

1101
01:13:11,840 --> 01:13:14,720
just whether you think I didn't,
I didn't ask the execond question yet.

1102
01:13:14,720 --> 01:13:18,119
That's why I guess really quickly that
whatever happens with say, will be

1103
01:13:18,159 --> 01:13:21,600
a good harbinger of what the thunder
plan on doing because he is extension eligible

1104
01:13:21,640 --> 01:13:27,039
and if you decide to move him, or like did negotiate because he's he's

1105
01:13:27,079 --> 01:13:29,880
a max extension eligible player, Like, if you're not gonna offer the max,

1106
01:13:29,880 --> 01:13:31,399
he's probably not going to sign that
deal. They're decision making on him

1107
01:13:31,439 --> 01:13:34,560
will probably hint on where this thing
is going. It would be my guess

1108
01:13:35,039 --> 01:13:40,359
I would agree. Is there anything
about this book I have not asked you

1109
01:13:40,479 --> 01:13:43,359
or that no one in previous interviews
has asked you that that you would like

1110
01:13:43,439 --> 01:13:49,039
to discuss. It's an interesting question. I've been trying to prepare for this

1111
01:13:49,159 --> 01:13:55,600
answer, but I'll say that,
you know, a lot of people didn't

1112
01:13:55,640 --> 01:14:00,239
ask that much about what's really I
think it was really fascinating the summer of

1113
01:14:00,279 --> 01:14:05,319
twenty fourteen how the Calves were balancing
the potential sign on Lebron and having the

1114
01:14:05,399 --> 01:14:10,640
number one pick, And I think
that just as another further testament to how

1115
01:14:10,720 --> 01:14:15,439
valuable the draft capital is for these
small market teams like Lebron is a total

1116
01:14:15,159 --> 01:14:19,399
different conversation, being that he was
obviously from Akron and that was a whole

1117
01:14:20,279 --> 01:14:26,439
major driving point and bringing them back
to Cleveland. But I think the decision

1118
01:14:26,479 --> 01:14:31,279
making that teams have to do well
planning for the president while while also planning

1119
01:14:31,279 --> 01:14:34,199
for the future. Everyone has to
do that. It's such a difficult balance,

1120
01:14:34,479 --> 01:14:40,760
but especially with that draft free agency
being like literally free agency opens the

1121
01:14:41,079 --> 01:14:44,880
week after the draft happens. And
I know there's been a conversation for years

1122
01:14:44,920 --> 01:14:47,199
amongst the leaves dec but it's about
flipping that. I think it's great.

1123
01:14:47,319 --> 01:14:51,079
I think it's really interesting that it's
not that easy and that teams have to

1124
01:14:51,119 --> 01:14:55,680
make these picks and trades around the
draft, not knowne what they're going to

1125
01:14:55,760 --> 01:14:59,600
get in free agency, and I
think that plays a big role behind the

1126
01:14:59,600 --> 01:15:04,479
scenes and under the surface, that
fansn't necessarily realize all the time how much

1127
01:15:04,520 --> 01:15:10,399
free agency ultimately plays a factor in
a lot of teams draft decision. I

1128
01:15:10,439 --> 01:15:14,439
mean, that's why Yannis landed the
Milwaukee the Mavericks. This is the last

1129
01:15:14,479 --> 01:15:16,399
story I'll say before we get at
here. The Mavericks had the thirteenth pick

1130
01:15:16,399 --> 01:15:21,760
in twenty thirteen and Atlanta was desiperately
trying to trade up to get Jannest.

1131
01:15:23,079 --> 01:15:25,720
They had seventeen and eighteen that year, and they thought you know, why

1132
01:15:25,800 --> 01:15:29,640
wouldn't you trade down four spots to
get an extra pick. The Mavericks were

1133
01:15:29,680 --> 01:15:33,319
trying to save salary cap for the
following summer twenty fourteens. They were trying

1134
01:15:33,319 --> 01:15:36,039
to go out for Lebron and Melow
too. They didn't want to add two

1135
01:15:36,039 --> 01:15:40,279
more rookie scale contracts. They didn't
want to add one more rookie scale contract

1136
01:15:40,359 --> 01:15:44,279
had four guaranteed years, and that's
they traded out of that pick. That's

1137
01:15:44,279 --> 01:15:47,600
how Kelly Lennick lands to Boston because
they didn't want to have extra money on

1138
01:15:47,640 --> 01:15:51,439
their books for the next July.
And that's why Yannis ended up going fifteen

1139
01:15:51,479 --> 01:15:56,680
to Milwaukee because Atlanta couldn't trade above
them. So I think it's really fascinating

1140
01:15:56,680 --> 01:16:00,880
how much free agency tinkering is in
the back and sometimes the of team's minds

1141
01:16:00,880 --> 01:16:03,399
when they were making these reaction and
decisions. The other thing I'll plug too

1142
01:16:03,439 --> 01:16:06,640
is because you mentioned the Cethlics,
the aggression with which Danny Ainge tried to

1143
01:16:06,680 --> 01:16:13,760
get Justice Winslow in Boston far exceeds
just the Charlotte Hornet's anecdote that everybody knows

1144
01:16:14,119 --> 01:16:17,680
by now. So buy this book. Built to Lose how the NBA's tanking

1145
01:16:17,680 --> 01:16:21,960
era change the league forever. It's
by Jake Fisher, who's also a writer

1146
01:16:23,159 --> 01:16:27,279
insider does everything about the NBA for
Bleacher Report. Follow him on Twitter at

1147
01:16:27,399 --> 01:16:32,039
Jake L. Fisher spelled out Jake
L. Fish Er Jake, thank you

1148
01:16:32,079 --> 01:16:35,239
so much for taking the time.
This was I thoroughly enjoyed this book and

1149
01:16:35,319 --> 01:16:39,680
I hope to be able to talk
to you soon or meet you in person

1150
01:16:39,720 --> 01:16:42,840
one day. Yeah, man,
well you know we're opening back up,

1151
01:16:42,960 --> 01:16:46,520
so I hope to see you and
Arena a pleacherport functioning in your future.