WEBVTT

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M hm hm hmm. I think
is that just taking me a little biting?

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Let's see? This is this is
cruzy? Yeah, okay, well

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a lot of people don't, okay
more than merry are. Oh yeah,

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that'll be crazy. So it's just
on speakers. That basically what we do

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there, okay, and we'll just
plug it in that your mics will beat

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it once you plug it into that
adapter. Oh great, okay, so

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we'll just be a little bliger than, you know, than as more m

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Let's see, can people hear me? I think they can hopefully, so

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let's hopes yeah, m hm hm. Do you want to test the audio

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with it bucked into the would you
prefer to keep its Yeah? It should

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work? Um, this is I
think this is working? Um great,

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yes, it's working. Okay,
okay, all right, well we can

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go. All right, you're getting
ready. I want to have a frank

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of water, take a deep breath
a right, let's go. You're good

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yeah? Sure, oh yeah,
thanks, okay, all right, we're

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ready to go here yep, okay, production lines moving. It's just such

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a great thing to watch. Yeah, all right, we're gonna get started

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in just a second, just a
second. Is this is this live live?

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Great? Yeah, okay, yeah, I wanted to do it live.

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Yep. I'm ready. When they
are, I'll tell them we're live

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on Twitter spaces too, should absolutely
okay, M yeah, Carl, thank

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you. I am here with the
Elon Musk. He's he's getting everything ready

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on Twitter spaces, so join us
there as well. But of course you

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can just watch us live here at
the gig of factory in Austin. Thank

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you for allowing us to be here. You're welcome. H It's quite something

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to just sit and watch for quite
some time. UM. Yeah, this

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this is actually where Um, I
don't actually have an office here. I

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either walk the floor or I hold
meetings in this room, okay, And

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this room allows me to see what's
going on with production while I'm holding meetings.

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Is there one particular production that you
focus on when you're here or that

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you sort of your eyes always go
to, or you you actually walk over

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to. Um, well, this
is the end of line that we're seeing

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here. So if if cars aren't
moving, um, that means this there's

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some blockage upstream, and then I
can go and see what that blockage is.

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UM, So I think we might
be on a break right now.

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But uh, this, if this, this is um, if this,

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if vehicle end of line is not
moving, that means there's something upstream that's

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wrong. Got it. Well,
it's been amazing just to walk around the

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facility a bit and get a sense
for the size. All Right, you

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just finished your annual meeting. You
took a lot of questions from a very

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eager audience. I feel like most
of it you've shared before, but there

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was some news and I want to
start there advertising. You got a big

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applause. You didn't sound like you're
going to advertise that much, but you

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did at least seem to open the
way to saying, okay, we might

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consider doing some advertising. Why Well, I mean, I believe in listening

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to listening to the shareholders, and
I actually was surprised by the level of

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enthusiasm for advertising, since we are
not historically done that. But there perhaps

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is some good logic to it in
that if we're simply saying out information by

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I say that the Tesla Twitter account
of my Twitter account, we're somewhat preaching

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to the converted and not reaching people
that are not already convinced. Essentially,

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so I think the I have a
good point. Well, I mean I

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think it's worth a try and we'll
see, we'll see. How do you

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have any idea how you'd like to
try it or what that would involve?

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Um? Well, I mean I
have some general thoughts about advertising. Um

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that that you know, if advertising
is informative um and and entertaining, then

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it is it can start to approach
content. Um. So I think sometimes

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advertising is perhaps a non informative or
perhaps in some cases a bit misleading.

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Um. And in fact, we've
lost some advertisers on Twitter because community notes

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applies to advertising too, and so
if somebody advertises something that isn't perhaps a

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bit inaccurate, then it gets community
noted, and then they get mad and

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stop advertising. But we're we're care
enough about the truth that we're willing to

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give out averting, give up advertising
dollars on Twitter even you know, in

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order to have the most the least
inaccurate, right. And I want to

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talk about that, but I want
to obviously spend some time on Tesla again.

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Back to adds though, I mean, am I going to start to

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seek Tesla ads? During the NFL
broadcast on a given Sunday Monday Thursday,

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The NFL's always on. Well,
bar in mind. I mean I only

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just agree to it, so it's
like I have a fully formed strategy.

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Okay, Well, how much time
does go into when you think about these

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things? I mean, was it
something you decide to do up on stage

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or at least did you know coming
in I may you know this comes up

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that I may go there? No, I mean the questions are not scripted

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in any way, right, So
so in that moment, you just said,

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all right, we'll do some ads. That's right. So We're only

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like twenty minutes later and I'm asking
you detailed questions. Yeah, have any

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answers? I guess I'm not sure
what the most spectrum thing is, except

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that, like I said, I
believe that advertising should be informative about a

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product. It should be ideally esthetically
pleasing. It should be you know,

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beautiful, should have some autistic element
to it, and it should be something

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that you don't regret watching after it's
done. And I think if advertising fits

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those criteria, that it starts to
approach content, and you want advertising that

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is as close to content as possible, such that you don't regret the time

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you spent watching it, but you
did say something as well, which is

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that you know you've been preaching to
the converted. You mentioned a few statistics,

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for example, about safety, about
price during the meeting that may not

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be fully understood by the general auto
buying public at large. Yeah, so

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a lot of people still think Teslas
are super expensive because we did start out

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with an expensive sports car, then
slightly less expensive sedan and suv. But

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now we're at the point where the
starting price of a Tesla is actually below

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the average selling price of a car
in the United States. So it Teslas

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are actually much more affordable than people
realize, and so we should just make

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sure people at least know that,
right um, and that it tells is

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also the safest cars in the road
US in so many ways that people at

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a lot of people with Tesla don't
even know, um, you know,

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sort of the cabin overheat protection for
example, or the fact that we continuously

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update the automatic emergency breaking software and
the way the airbags deploy. So we

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look, we look at an accident, we say, is there anything we

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can do from a software standpoint to
improve the cars that are already on the

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road, And then what can we
update in the design to improve safety?

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So um, and I think that
you know, the statistics speak for themselves.

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This is not simply a matter of
opinion. It's statistically it's safer than

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anything else. Um. You mentioned
affordability. It's something you discussed during your

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meeting. You've also discussed it a
bit on the call on the earnings call

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recently as well, in relation to
the Federal Reserve raising interest rates and obviously

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the monthly cost for a typical autobuyer. You think it's going to be a

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tough twelve months ahead. You've said
that a few times times. Yes,

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for everyone not just has understood.
So it's um, I mean simply uh,

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you know you can you can think
of raising there fred rate as as

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somewhat of a brake pedal and the
economy frankly, so it's um. It

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makes a lot of things more expensive, certainly things that are bought with credit,

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but then it has downstream effects on
on even things that are on board

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with credit. So um, you
know, if if the car payment or

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your home mortgage payment is absorbing more
of your monthly budget, then you have

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less money to buy other things.
So actually it affects everything, even those

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that aren't things that aren't bortant or
on credit so UM and my concern with

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the with the way that the Federal
Reserve is making decisions is that they they're

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just operating with um too much latency. Basically, the data is somewhat stales,

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so they So the Federal Reserve was
was slow to raise interest rates um

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and and now I think they are
slow to they're going to be slow to

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lower them. That's that's that appears
to be the case. Yeah, that

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may well be. We spent a
lot of time talking about that, perhaps

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too much. But when it comes
to latency, that takes me to pricing,

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because you've discussed the lack of latency
in your own ability to understand exactly

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what's going on in the market for
those cars as opposed to yea many of

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the legacy and other Yes, yes, we have real time information on demand

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so UM. So we know how
many people place an order for it has

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yesterday, so the computer calculates that
will UM and literally every day we get

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a you know, an automated email
to the exact staff that says how many

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people place an order in which countries
for which cars, So we know what

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demand, we know, we know
what the orders were yesterday. Um.

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And you don't want to overreact to
these things because sometimes you get like little

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dips for you know, reasons that
are hard to explain. Do you look

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at them every day? Yeah?
Yeah. Um but like I said,

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you don't want to over react to
to you know, if like a week

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is slow or something, you don't
overreact to that. Um. But uh,

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if but if you look at the
trend, say for over two weeks

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span or something like that, you
can see that, Okay, there's this

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for some reason the demand is is
less than it was or it's higher.

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Um. Just pricing Yeah yeah that
I mean is that are are you almost

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like an airline at this point in
terms of kind of dynamic pricing model?

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Yes? So, Um, we
we're basically adjust pricing to match demand.

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Um and um we obviously did a
big price drop in Q one. But

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you no, no, January is
it's usually a terrible type of car binding.

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Um. So there's there's seasonality to
car purchases. Um with January.

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January, January is often the worst
month. So um, so we did

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we did a big price drop and
then and then then recently we did a

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price increase. So, as I
mentioned to the audience. The reality is

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that all companies do significant All car
companies make significant adjustments to price because you've

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got the MSRP number, and then
if demand is high, a dealist will

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charge some premium over MSRP. If
demand is lower, they'll they will have

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manufacturing setups so that you can actually
see a very big difference over the course

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of say six months, between the
peak to trough of all cars. It's

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just that Tesla is so immediate and
obviously transparent. It's not a question of

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MSRP and then mock ups or discounts. Right, But after your last earnings,

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a lot of investors came away wanting
to talk about your margins and wanting

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to talk about your pricing in particular. I think you know, you talked

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about vehicle cost reduction. You sort
of even said it's hard to explain the

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profundity of technically selling cars now for
no profit and still yielding tremendous economics over

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time. Yes, I'd like you
to explain a little bit more of what

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that means. You did a bit
in the meeting as well. You're talking

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about sort of the move I think
from manual to autonomous and the value add

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that will come along with that,
But explain to people why that's profound and

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why conceivably not that you want to
You could sell automobiles now for no profit

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and still make enormous profit in the
future. Yeah, so Tesla is the

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only car company selling cars that where
we believe the car is capable of achieving

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full autonomy with a software update.
So the value of a folios or folio

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autonomous car is we think perhaps five
times more valuable than an autonomous car.

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Why, well, the utility of
a car, typically a passenger car is

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going to be maybe ten ten hours
a week, maybe twelve if you say,

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like somebody's going to drive an hour
and a half a day on averaging,

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so maybe maybe in our commute per
day and then an occasional long trip.

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But figure it's like ten twelve hours
a week is typical for um,

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a passenger vehicle. UM. And
then, uh, you also have a

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lot of costs associated with parking.
You need a garage, or you've better

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buy a parking space, or you've
got to get you know, get a

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parking ticket at them at the mall. It's there's there's a lot of costs

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associated with cars. UM and uh, you know if you've got a car

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that's autonomous, UM, that can
go around and essentially be like an autonomous

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uber. UM. The utility I
think is going to be what's gonna be

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much higher? Perhaps you know?
And then this again there was there's so

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much speculative I understand we're talking about
robot taxis here or at least what people

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have called and you have called.
Yeah, autonomous uber is what you think

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about. So perhaps the utility that
would be on the order of fifty hours

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a week. It's just a guess, say there's one hundred and sixty eight

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hours a week, UM, and
probably as rough guests an autonomous car is

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we'll be able to be active instead
of four or four ten hours a week,

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probably in argue for about fifty But
it's the same car, so the

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and it costs the same to build. Um, You're I want to understand

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the business model a little bit because
I'm buying the car and instead of it

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parking at my lot while I'm working, it goes off and picks people up

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and drops them off. Yes,
who's making the money from that? I

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assume that that's the value add you're
talking about. Is it a revenue share?

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Do you have this model sort of
planned out specifically is how it would

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look. Um, yeah, it's
it's it's been tens of terms and conditions

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for for quite a long time.
It has. Yeah, So the the

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owner of the car would make I
don't know some amount, who knows what

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would be, but perhaps, uh, you know, it could be a

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fifty fifty split or seventy thirty I
don't know. But um, the cars

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are are if you buy it tells
a car it can only be used in

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the tells a network, I cannot
be used in someone else's at work.

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So um that that means that if
the car is able to be used five

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times as much and and Tesla is
likely to make basically two or three times

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the original value or sale value of
the car um in in robotaxi revenue.

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Right. This this is this is
gigantic. Um as it said, it'll

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be like selling cars for software margins
because in fact it is software. Right.

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So um, instead of effectively having
say twenty five cent margins, it

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might be seventy seventy percent or more. Um and uh, I mean the

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pre cash flow associated with that it
is actually truly a staggering amount. The

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best analysis that I've seen thus far
about This is from Kathy Woods from ARC

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invest Yeah. She's great. Ye, I would assume you like her obviously,

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she's been a used proponent of your
stock for many years. Was right,

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by the way, very early on
she was right. Yeah. Um,

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so I thought she was being optimistic, but I she turned out to

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be in fact almost spot on.
Yeah. Um, and I am familiar

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somewhat with her analysis. What a
lot of investors come back to where everybody

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is your promises of full autonomy.
Um, and you seem to be saying

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again it's close. Yeah, you
said it before, you know that?

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Yeah, So, I mean you
said nineteen, I think about twenty and

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I've certainly been Um. You know
if I guess I have somewhat of a

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pathological optimism. Um, well,
it works, by the way, because

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you don't end up with this unless
you're optimistic. But yeah, exactly,

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I mean, who would try to
do this and this and rockets if they

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weren't pathologically opted? No, you'd
have to be. Yeah, so there's

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a you know, there's a double
edged sword, I guess, um.

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But but you know, do you
ever say to yourself, are I'm getting

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a little ahead of myself here?
I mean when you said again, we're

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gonna have full autonomy. No,
I didn't say, well, I said,

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I think you think, my opinion, we probably will. Okay,

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right, there's a number of qualifiers
there. I think my opinion, we

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probably will. So what do you
think in your opinion you probably will win?

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I mean, it does look like
it's going to happen this year.

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Why, well, we're not at
the point where the car can drive on

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highways and in cities with and where
a human intervention is extremely rare. So

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I mean, just I was able
to drive for several days just dropping a

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navigation pen in random locations in the
Greater Wilson area with no interveentions on the

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same in San Francisco, which is
a very dificult place to drive. So

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I mean it's you got bus lanes, one way streets. You know,

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it's quite quite a challenging a homeless
situation. You were driving recently in San

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Francisco. The car was I have
been doing doing that quite a lot because

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of the Twitter's headquartered quarter. Maybe
less, maybe a little less soon.

241
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Yeah, well we'll get to that. But finished your point though, in

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terms of why you feel more why
you're optimistic. I'm optimist for that reason,

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which is that the I've actually never, um, the first time I've

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had a situation where there's been several
days in a row going picking random destinations

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and having no safety related intervention,
So the first time ever. UM.

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I want to get to a lot
of other topics, but you know,

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I am curious on Tesla in particular. UM. One thing I haven't heard

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you discuss is the impact on your
business of the Inflation Reduction Act. At

249
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least I haven't heard it. Maybe
you've discussed it. UM. You know

250
00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:56.519
Adam Jonas, who follows your company, Morgan Stanley said, we believe the

251
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IRA is so advantageous to Tesla in
terms of absolute dollar versus the legacy OAMS

252
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it could equal as much as forty
five percent of current earnings per share.

253
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Is the IRA going to be usually
beneficial to your company? I'm not sure

254
00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:17.559
it'd be it's gonna be that beneficial. Uh, there's UM, there are

255
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there are significant advantages for having domestic
production of batteries, which I think is

256
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important for strategic reasons. You know, I think as we moved to an

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electric transport economy, I think it's
important for the United states to UM have

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some independence with respect to battery production, including all of the precursors necessary for

259
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a battery. So the the IRA
strongly incents that, and I think that

260
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will prove to be something of important
of national strategic importance in the future.

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So I'm not sure I would say
it's as good as a forty five percent

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increase and only share or it's it's
a it's helpful. Yeah, yeah,

263
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I would say it's maybe it's a
half that or something, okay, But

264
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I mean it's quite significant. Have
you mapped that at all? Do you

265
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have a sense. I mean,
obviously you talk about storage, for example,

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which is so important. You spend
time on that as well with megapac.

267
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Is it beneficial in that particular area
beyond obviously the the credits, the

268
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tax credits that certain people get for
buying a Teslam. Yeah, there's two.

269
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There's really two posts to the IRA. There's the incentive for battery manufacturing

270
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UM and it's really quite a detail. It's's actually a very well written

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uh well in that it's it really
makes sure that you can't game it,

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you know, so you actually have
to build the batteries in the US,

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and you actually have to build the
precursis to the batteries. Um. But

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if you do it is um Uh, I believe thirty dollars at the at

275
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the cell level and fifteen dollars I
believe partly so that that is very significant

276
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batteries. And then you've got the
consumer tax credit for evs provided they are

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built in the US. Uh.
And and that the package built in the

278
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US. So UM, no,
this this this is the really the first

279
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time that we've we've actually had the
you know, the first time in many

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years that Tesla has actually had the
consumer tax credit. Yes, because we

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actually exceeded the limit for the consumer
tax credit several years ago. Um.

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And so up until December, until
January this year, I should say,

283
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there was no consumer tax in center
to buy a Tesla, but there was

284
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for the other car companies because they
had not reached They've not made that many

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electric cards, right, they didn't
reach their moment. Yeah. Um.

286
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You know, before I wrap on
Tesla, I would like to get to

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China, which is obviously an important
market for you. Um. You know,

288
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I noticed that chart you put up
by D's the only company that seems

289
00:22:56.759 --> 00:23:00.759
to be making money so far.
Um, are you concerned at all about

290
00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:03.119
UM, you know, ruthless pricing
sort of at the low end and the

291
00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:08.160
Chinese market and what that will mean
to your market share though well, currently

292
00:23:08.359 --> 00:23:15.160
a limitation UM with it is that
is the is the production rate of our

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00:23:15.160 --> 00:23:25.000
Shanghai factory. It's not demand so
UM. I mean, so that's there's

294
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some constraints on our ability to expand
in China and UM and so it's we're

295
00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:33.920
making as many conis we can't it's
not a demand issue. And you can

296
00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:40.319
be making batteries soon as well.
Yes, yes, UM for the Mega

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00:23:40.359 --> 00:23:45.720
pac UM for for mostly for non
US markets. So are you concerned at

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00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:49.720
all about the growing belligerence between China
and the US? UM. I think

299
00:23:49.799 --> 00:23:55.640
that should be a concern for everyone. I think you're right. I think

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it is shared by many people who
run large organizations and smaller ones. Do

301
00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:03.839
you think, for example, China
will will make a move to take control

302
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of Taiwan? The official officially,
the official policy of China is that Taiwan

303
00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:18.880
should be integrated. One does not
need to read between the lines. One

304
00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:22.880
continually read the lines, do you
think so? I think there's a certain

305
00:24:22.920 --> 00:24:30.400
there's some inevitability to the situation that
would not be good for Tesla conceivably or

306
00:24:30.480 --> 00:24:34.000
for any any company in the world. Frankly, yes, for any company

307
00:24:34.039 --> 00:24:41.799
in the world. I think most
almost no one really realizes that the Chinese

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economy and the global the rest of
the global economy are like conjoin twins.

309
00:24:47.839 --> 00:24:51.359
It would be like trying to separate
conjoin twins. That that's the severity of

310
00:24:51.359 --> 00:24:56.400
the situation. Um. And it's
actually worse for for a lot of other

311
00:24:56.440 --> 00:25:00.319
companies than it is for for I
mean, I'm not sure, I'm sure

312
00:25:00.319 --> 00:25:04.640
where you're gonna get an iPhone for
example. UM, and Apple's recently started

313
00:25:04.640 --> 00:25:08.559
doing some some small amount of production
in India, but it's tiny compared tiny,

314
00:25:08.680 --> 00:25:12.039
not to mention an advanced semiconductor chip
if they take over Taiwan Semi.

315
00:25:12.599 --> 00:25:17.480
Correct, you design your own chips, but you manufacture them a Taiwan Semi

316
00:25:17.480 --> 00:25:21.200
too, right, we do some
we do. We do. We use

317
00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:26.759
Samsung an TSMC um. But uh, you seem to think it's it's likely

318
00:25:26.799 --> 00:25:33.839
to happen. I'm so only saying
that that is their policy, and I

319
00:25:33.880 --> 00:25:40.359
think you should take their word seriously. They mean it. Um, you

320
00:25:40.400 --> 00:25:42.519
know your time. I think you've
said in fact, some of the brief

321
00:25:42.559 --> 00:25:45.000
conversations we've had, you know,
it's one of the most valuable things in

322
00:25:45.039 --> 00:25:49.440
your own control. And I am
curious now. And Tesla investors sort of

323
00:25:49.480 --> 00:25:52.599
seemed to rejoice at the announcement of
a new CEO of Twitter, in part

324
00:25:52.640 --> 00:25:56.960
because they thought, well, he's
gonna have more time for Tesla. That's

325
00:25:56.960 --> 00:26:00.519
true. Is it true? How
do you see sort of allocate your time

326
00:26:00.559 --> 00:26:03.839
now that you will suit no longer
be the CEO of Twitter? Um?

327
00:26:03.920 --> 00:26:08.319
Yeah, so, um, you
know it was. It was really a

328
00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:14.000
very very challenging um situation at the
point in which the Twitter position closed because

329
00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:19.039
um, you know, in rough
terms, uh, there was a billion

330
00:26:19.079 --> 00:26:22.920
and a half dollars of debt sipcing
was added. Um, while at the

331
00:26:22.920 --> 00:26:26.960
same time there was a massive side
exactly you've said, you were four months

332
00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:30.160
away from bankruptcy. It was three
billion dollars in a year, conceivably negative

333
00:26:30.160 --> 00:26:33.359
three billion dollar cashload, and had
a billion billion dollars in the bank.

334
00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:36.359
Yeah. Um, no, that's
not good. No, anybody who knows

335
00:26:36.359 --> 00:26:40.079
anything about corporate finance knows it's bad. No. I mean, I say,

336
00:26:40.119 --> 00:26:42.039
like the analogy as using was,
it's like being teleported into a plane

337
00:26:42.079 --> 00:26:47.359
that's in a nose dive, headed
to the ground, with the engines on

338
00:26:47.359 --> 00:26:51.039
the fire and the controls don't work. Right, you were the guy that

339
00:26:51.720 --> 00:26:55.480
you chose to get into the plane. Well, well, I did try

340
00:26:55.480 --> 00:26:57.440
to exit the deal and it wouldn't
let me. I mean, it was

341
00:26:57.519 --> 00:27:02.559
it was a funny situation where when
when I first first proposed the acquisition,

342
00:27:02.599 --> 00:27:06.960
they said, hell no, they
adopted a poison pill, basically saying they'd

343
00:27:07.079 --> 00:27:12.319
rather die than be then be acquired, like they'd rather chew on cyanide.

344
00:27:14.799 --> 00:27:17.559
Then a few months later that they're
like, basically have a gun to my

345
00:27:17.599 --> 00:27:19.240
head saying no, you must acquire
us. I mean, that's quite a

346
00:27:19.319 --> 00:27:23.160
change. It is quite a change. But you seem to think I can

347
00:27:23.160 --> 00:27:26.880
figure out a way out of this, until finally, I guess you realized

348
00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:29.920
that I can't. It was made
clear to me that the decision would not

349
00:27:29.960 --> 00:27:33.480
come down in my favor legally.
Yeah, all right, Well, now

350
00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:38.119
you have a new CEO. Why
I think little Linda Yaqoan is gonna be

351
00:27:38.119 --> 00:27:44.400
great? Why? Um, well, Twitter is it's very much an advertising

352
00:27:44.400 --> 00:27:48.200
dependent business. Linda's obviously incredble with
that, and she's just a great executive

353
00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:55.960
in general. Um so, the
and you know, my skills and interests

354
00:27:56.000 --> 00:28:00.279
are in technology. Um so,
you know I will continue to play a

355
00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:07.240
role advancing the software. Um and
you know, you know, getting the

356
00:28:07.279 --> 00:28:14.400
futures and product stuff basically. M
So. I mean the general idea is

357
00:28:15.240 --> 00:28:18.279
Lenda will operate the company and I
will build products. Yeah, and that's

358
00:28:18.319 --> 00:28:21.480
I think that's that's that's a good. That's a good, and that will

359
00:28:21.519 --> 00:28:23.880
take less of your time. Yeah, and I have I have that situation

360
00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:30.599
at SpaceX. Um you know,
Gwyn Shotwell's amazing um uh, you know

361
00:28:32.079 --> 00:28:36.279
operates the company and I and I
booken the sort of advanced technology, right,

362
00:28:36.359 --> 00:28:37.920
both sort of designing in your rockets
and that kind of thing. And

363
00:28:38.079 --> 00:28:41.119
then that's uh, you know,
every once you play to their strengths.

364
00:28:41.119 --> 00:28:45.000
And that's that's that's mine. That's
although I wonder you mean in twenty twenty

365
00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:47.880
one you said you spend most of
your time on the development of Starship.

366
00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:51.359
I think you've also been quoted,
I've read I think I heard you say

367
00:28:51.400 --> 00:28:55.559
actually most of your mental energy at
certain points has been on Starship. Yes,

368
00:28:55.799 --> 00:28:57.720
So I wonder have you been diverted
from Starship a little bit and we'll

369
00:28:57.759 --> 00:29:03.759
return to it as the main focus. Or is it Tesla you know again,

370
00:29:03.799 --> 00:29:07.759
your time, I know, having
tried to schedule this interview with time.

371
00:29:07.799 --> 00:29:12.480
Time treach is a real thing.
Yeah. In fact, I i'd

372
00:29:12.480 --> 00:29:17.200
say that the only real currency is
time. Time is the only true currency.

373
00:29:17.240 --> 00:29:18.559
So where you're going to spend the
currency now that you don't have to

374
00:29:18.599 --> 00:29:22.519
spend as much on Twitter, Well, I'm going to be devoting a lot

375
00:29:22.559 --> 00:29:33.640
more time to to Tesla UM and
especially on the AI development UM and your

376
00:29:33.640 --> 00:29:38.440
product development, the and and then
there's and I'll also be allocating some more

377
00:29:38.480 --> 00:29:45.759
time to getting Starship to orbit.
UM. In the case of SpaceX UM,

378
00:29:47.160 --> 00:29:52.960
what I was able to do there
was as as the Starlink constellation I

379
00:29:52.960 --> 00:29:56.960
started working, I was able to
move some of the best people from the

380
00:29:56.960 --> 00:30:03.440
Starlink program to the Starship program UM, so they were you know, the

381
00:30:03.799 --> 00:30:07.279
timing kind of worked out well that
that UM. I mean, we have

382
00:30:07.400 --> 00:30:12.720
really some of the world's best engineers
it SpaceX and Tesla really some incredible human

383
00:30:12.759 --> 00:30:17.519
beings. There was some statistic you
shared. I think three point six million

384
00:30:17.559 --> 00:30:19.200
people applied for a job at Tesla. I think I didn't I wrote it

385
00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:22.400
down. I didn't write it down
here since member, but that was that

386
00:30:22.519 --> 00:30:27.319
the number. Yeah, it's crazy. There's a lot of demand. One

387
00:30:27.400 --> 00:30:32.000
hundred and twenty seven almost hundred twenty
thousand employees, but three point six million

388
00:30:32.079 --> 00:30:37.119
people applying for a job. Yes, and I mean there's you know,

389
00:30:37.279 --> 00:30:41.880
we would only add like to twenty
or thirty thousand jobs. So it's it's

390
00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:48.319
it's sort of the acceptance rate for
for Tesla is it's much more difficult to

391
00:30:48.359 --> 00:30:52.680
get into Tesla or SpaceX than Harvard, right, the acceptance rate is even

392
00:30:52.720 --> 00:30:56.359
lower one for two. Well,
yeah, it's it's. It's it's the

393
00:30:56.400 --> 00:31:02.640
excerptance rate is lower than than the
most demanding universities in the world. It's

394
00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:07.440
insane. Speaking of employment, though, you had seventy eight hundred people at

395
00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:10.759
Twitter when the plane was nose diving, I think you're at fifteen hundred.

396
00:31:10.799 --> 00:31:15.720
Now we're roughly sixty three hundred people. Were they all superfluous? No?

397
00:31:15.759 --> 00:31:19.079
Not all. Do you figure out
which ones aren't or is it a little

398
00:31:19.160 --> 00:31:22.720
late? You know, sometimes it
gets a little late. I mean,

399
00:31:22.759 --> 00:31:26.640
look, desperate time was called for
desperate measures. So um, there's no

400
00:31:26.759 --> 00:31:30.960
question that some of the people who
are let go probably shouldn't have been let

401
00:31:30.960 --> 00:31:37.079
go because we we simply did not
have the time to figure out we had

402
00:31:37.119 --> 00:31:41.279
to be you know, make make
widespread cuts to get the run rate under

403
00:31:41.279 --> 00:31:47.079
control. So um you know.
And uh so this is not to say

404
00:31:47.119 --> 00:31:49.759
that hey, everyone who is like
go from Twitter is like somehow terrible or

405
00:31:49.759 --> 00:31:56.440
something. It's just we have to
with very little information. You get get

406
00:31:56.480 --> 00:32:02.319
the the the headcount expenses and that
the non posonal expenses down to where we're

407
00:32:02.319 --> 00:32:06.640
at least break even. And we're
not quite a break even yet, but

408
00:32:06.680 --> 00:32:09.559
we're close. We need to do
it fast and if you if you,

409
00:32:09.759 --> 00:32:14.559
if you do it fast, unfortunately, there are gonna be some babies thrown

410
00:32:14.559 --> 00:32:17.559
out with the death orders. So
um so, I definitely, I definitely

411
00:32:17.559 --> 00:32:22.119
would not want to say, uh, you know, disparage you know,

412
00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:24.480
any I understand. But it's funny, you know, I hear from other

413
00:32:24.599 --> 00:32:30.720
I've heard from other tech CEOs quietly
they look at what you did at Twitter,

414
00:32:30.799 --> 00:32:34.440
and they sort of they won't admit
it publicly, but you know,

415
00:32:34.480 --> 00:32:37.039
they said, wow, that was
something I mean to cut that deeply and

416
00:32:37.119 --> 00:32:40.359
still be able to shroun the company. People will argue about how well or

417
00:32:40.440 --> 00:32:44.640
things are running. Have you heard
from any of the CEOs and said,

418
00:32:44.680 --> 00:32:47.359
thank you for doing that giving us
sort of runway or leeway to at least

419
00:32:47.359 --> 00:32:51.640
make some cuts of our own.
Um I have. I've heard that from

420
00:32:51.680 --> 00:32:53.319
a few people, and and I've
heard that through the grapevine. Yeah.

421
00:32:53.680 --> 00:33:00.319
Um, but um, like I
said, if desperate times call for desperate

422
00:33:00.359 --> 00:33:02.720
measures, unfortunately that those were desperate
times. So do you see starting to

423
00:33:02.960 --> 00:33:06.279
I mean, we'll lend up hire
people. Do you think are you reading

424
00:33:06.319 --> 00:33:08.200
from people to be hired a twitter? You know, I think we absolutely,

425
00:33:08.440 --> 00:33:13.039
um, I need to need to
hire people, and and and if

426
00:33:13.039 --> 00:33:15.480
they're not too mad at us,
probably re hire some of the people.

427
00:33:15.640 --> 00:33:21.319
But they were like go um,
and they're gonna have to come into the

428
00:33:21.400 --> 00:33:25.079
office. Look, I I'm a
big believer that that that that people need

429
00:33:25.119 --> 00:33:31.400
to are more productive when they're in
person, um, and and and and

430
00:33:31.279 --> 00:33:36.799
and really man and who the whole
sort of work from home thing, it's

431
00:33:36.839 --> 00:33:44.000
like, I think it's if there
are some exceptions, but I kind of

432
00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:45.880
think that that the whole notion of
work from home is a bit like the

433
00:33:46.240 --> 00:33:51.240
you know, the the fake Marie
Antoinette quote let them eat cake. It's

434
00:33:51.279 --> 00:33:53.559
like it's like, it's like,
really, you're gonna work from home,

435
00:33:53.599 --> 00:33:57.759
and you're gonna make everyone else who
made your car come work to the fact

436
00:33:57.799 --> 00:34:00.880
work in the factory. You're gonna
make the people who your food that gets

437
00:34:00.880 --> 00:34:04.480
to live it that they can't work
from home. That you know, the

438
00:34:04.480 --> 00:34:07.199
people that come fix your house,
they can't work from home but you can.

439
00:34:07.880 --> 00:34:12.800
Does that seem morally right? That's
messed up? You see there's a

440
00:34:12.800 --> 00:34:15.639
moral issue. Yes, I mean
I see it more. It's a productivity

441
00:34:15.639 --> 00:34:20.960
issue, but issue. People should
get off the moral high horse with the

442
00:34:21.039 --> 00:34:24.039
work from home bullshit. Um because
they're asking everyone else to not work from

443
00:34:24.079 --> 00:34:28.639
home while they do, and they're
still pushback. By the way, it's

444
00:34:28.639 --> 00:34:31.480
still going on. This battle is
still happening. I mean leaders of organizations

445
00:34:31.480 --> 00:34:34.960
and I speak to plenty of them. I want people back. I want

446
00:34:34.960 --> 00:34:38.440
people back three days a week.
They're still battling. It's not clear that

447
00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:45.360
it's ever going to change to people
are not people the laptop classes living in

448
00:34:45.440 --> 00:34:50.880
Lala land. Okay, As I
said, you can't but look at the

449
00:34:50.920 --> 00:34:54.519
cars or people working from from home
here? Of course not um so so

450
00:34:54.559 --> 00:34:59.360
the people were, you know,
building the cars, servicing the cars,

451
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:04.440
holding houses, fixing houses, making
the food, um, making all the

452
00:35:04.519 --> 00:35:09.639
things that that people consume. It's
it's messed up to assume that that this

453
00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:14.960
they have to go to work,
but you don't. How is that that

454
00:35:15.119 --> 00:35:17.480
is? It's not just a productivity
thing. I think it's Marley Marley wrong.

455
00:35:20.079 --> 00:35:24.000
Although productivity is definitely impacted too,
and the ability people learn, I

456
00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:29.119
mean on and on list. So
I mean, look, you know people

457
00:35:29.119 --> 00:35:30.920
will disagree with me about this,
but I you know, it's like,

458
00:35:31.800 --> 00:35:35.440
um, so if you want to
work at Tesla, you want to work

459
00:35:35.480 --> 00:35:37.400
at SpaceX, you want to work
at Twitter, You've got to come into

460
00:35:37.400 --> 00:35:42.599
the office every day. Yes,
I mean you know, Like I'm not

461
00:35:42.639 --> 00:35:46.440
saying, um, I'm saying,
like, look, we put forty hours

462
00:35:46.440 --> 00:35:49.639
in you know, and it frankly, it doesn't even even need to be

463
00:35:49.719 --> 00:35:52.920
like, you know, Monday through
Friday. You know, you work Monday

464
00:35:52.920 --> 00:35:57.280
through Thursday. And also not saying
no one should take I mean I think

465
00:35:57.519 --> 00:36:00.639
people should take vacations, Like I
work seven days a week, but I'm

466
00:36:00.639 --> 00:36:04.639
not expecting others to do that.
How much sleep do you get, by

467
00:36:04.679 --> 00:36:07.920
the way, about six hours you
do six hours typically. Yeah, no,

468
00:36:08.039 --> 00:36:10.679
that's not bad. I thought it
would be less. I've tried less,

469
00:36:10.719 --> 00:36:15.320
but my productivity even though I'm awake
more hours, I get lest one,

470
00:36:15.480 --> 00:36:17.760
okay, and the brain pain level
is bad if I get lessen in

471
00:36:17.800 --> 00:36:22.840
six hours. But you work seven
days a week? Yes, yeah,

472
00:36:22.519 --> 00:36:29.480
I actually only um in terms of
actually you say, like, how many

473
00:36:29.559 --> 00:36:32.000
days in a year do I not
put in some meaniqual amount of work?

474
00:36:32.079 --> 00:36:37.639
It's probably about two or three,
right, two or three days a year?

475
00:36:37.800 --> 00:36:42.920
Yeah? A year? Yeah?
Yes, um. I want to

476
00:36:42.920 --> 00:36:46.079
get to some more specific questions about
Twitter that's sort of have a more global

477
00:36:46.119 --> 00:36:49.159
aspect, and I still want to
get to AI. You're gonna give us

478
00:36:49.159 --> 00:36:51.199
some time here, can we still? Um? Yeah? I think about

479
00:36:51.199 --> 00:36:52.880
a board meeting coming up, but
I'm happy to give as much time as

480
00:36:52.880 --> 00:36:55.400
reasonally possible. I think it's maybe
it's six or something. Okay, Well,

481
00:36:55.440 --> 00:37:00.400
let's our time, isn't now?
I love another twenty years? Another?

482
00:37:00.920 --> 00:37:04.320
All right? At least twenty great? Um, let's talk about free

483
00:37:04.360 --> 00:37:07.119
speech a bit. You know,
you call yourself a free speech absolutist.

484
00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:09.559
You want Twitter, and this isn't
aspirationally. Aspirationally you want Twitter to be

485
00:37:09.559 --> 00:37:14.719
as truthful as possible, most accurate
source of information about the world. Um,

486
00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:20.199
So what does that mean for how
you police lies on the platform?

487
00:37:20.239 --> 00:37:23.760
You mentioned community notes? Is that
I think community Yeah? I mean,

488
00:37:24.199 --> 00:37:30.760
I'd say so. My overall kind
of vision for actual Twitter is to be

489
00:37:31.360 --> 00:37:38.039
a cybernetic collective mind for humanity.
This is going to sound quite esoteric and

490
00:37:38.079 --> 00:37:44.960
sci fi bit um. So the
if if you know, in pursuit of

491
00:37:44.960 --> 00:37:50.000
that objective, you want to have
information move quickly, have that information be

492
00:37:50.440 --> 00:37:52.239
accurate, and you want to have
error correction on that information. So you

493
00:37:52.239 --> 00:37:57.719
can think of community notes as like
an error correction on information in the network.

494
00:37:58.239 --> 00:38:01.119
Um. And the effective community notes
is actually bigger than it would seem.

495
00:38:01.159 --> 00:38:05.760
It's bigger than the number of notes
because if somebody knows that they're going

496
00:38:05.840 --> 00:38:09.719
to get noted, they are less
likely to say something that is false because

497
00:38:09.760 --> 00:38:15.239
it's embarrassing to get community noted.
Okay, And and that applies even to

498
00:38:15.320 --> 00:38:22.440
advertisers. Right, We've lost that's
so far forty million dollars in advertising because

499
00:38:22.480 --> 00:38:29.159
it was misleading or because because the
community notes get to two pretty big advertisers

500
00:38:29.199 --> 00:38:37.199
got community noted. Um and I
yes, UM, I think on balance

501
00:38:37.239 --> 00:38:42.239
the community notes who are correct?
And I did I did say to those

502
00:38:42.280 --> 00:38:51.840
advertisers, look provide just go on
Twitter and provide some facts that contradict the

503
00:38:51.840 --> 00:38:54.000
community note. That's the way to
deal with the community note is to say,

504
00:38:54.320 --> 00:38:59.119
is that the community note is saying
that the ad is misleading for the

505
00:38:59.159 --> 00:39:05.280
following reasons. You've got the information
that rebuts that note, then just add

506
00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:07.639
that to the ad. Okay,
well, we're coming up on an election.

507
00:39:07.760 --> 00:39:10.320
I mean it's a ways a way, but it's going to all start.

508
00:39:10.760 --> 00:39:15.800
Um. Yeah, President Trump is
allowed back on the platform. He

509
00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:17.719
hasn't actually come back, right,
but one would imagine if and when he

510
00:39:17.760 --> 00:39:22.199
does, or there are others who
will say twenty twenty election was rigged?

511
00:39:22.039 --> 00:39:28.599
Is that something I assume that saw
something you believe? I well, I

512
00:39:28.599 --> 00:39:35.440
think the answer the answer is is
nuanced, Like do I believe Biden?

513
00:39:35.519 --> 00:39:37.679
One? Yes, I believe you
want and you voted for I did?

514
00:39:37.840 --> 00:39:49.239
Actually do you regret that? I
mean, man, I wish we could

515
00:39:49.239 --> 00:39:52.760
have just a normal human being as
president. That's what I wanted. I

516
00:39:52.800 --> 00:39:55.039
think if if if we could,
you know, there's that that old saying

517
00:39:55.079 --> 00:40:00.599
of like we're better we're better off
being run by um, by people picked

518
00:40:00.599 --> 00:40:04.480
at random from the phone book then
the faculty of Harvard. Yeah. I

519
00:40:04.480 --> 00:40:07.119
don't know who said that, but
someone very wise. UM. And and

520
00:40:07.239 --> 00:40:12.199
I would I would say if we
could do that for the president, that

521
00:40:12.480 --> 00:40:16.360
would be So you're not obviously you're
not happy with don't we all just want

522
00:40:16.360 --> 00:40:22.360
an all human beings whatever? What
I mean? Like you know, just

523
00:40:23.440 --> 00:40:28.480
I don't know. So you want
somebody's competent it's helpful, Yes, I

524
00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:32.440
think definitely. Um, somebody's executive
ability is underrated. Since the president is

525
00:40:32.440 --> 00:40:37.119
effectively the chief executive officer of the
country. UM, it actually matters if

526
00:40:37.159 --> 00:40:39.639
they are a good executive officer.
Yeah, it's it's not simply a matter

527
00:40:39.719 --> 00:40:44.840
of do they share your beliefs and
you know, um, but but are

528
00:40:44.880 --> 00:40:47.639
they good at getting things done?
There's a lot of decisions that need to

529
00:40:47.679 --> 00:40:53.159
be made every day. UM,
many of them are unrelated to moral beliefs,

530
00:40:53.519 --> 00:41:00.000
you know. And and you just
want a good executive because their CEO

531
00:41:00.039 --> 00:41:05.360
of America they are they are.
We want a good CEO of America who's

532
00:41:05.360 --> 00:41:10.679
going to do being effective? Fortunately, we live in highly partisan times where

533
00:41:10.719 --> 00:41:15.880
there is war about everything. Including
ideas, including the truth, which gets

534
00:41:15.880 --> 00:41:20.199
back to it's not true that the
election in twenty and twenty was rigged.

535
00:41:20.199 --> 00:41:22.679
It wasn't stolen. And I wonder
on the platform when you see that,

536
00:41:22.920 --> 00:41:25.800
does that end up in a community
note or is that something you take more

537
00:41:25.800 --> 00:41:29.000
action on? And obviously the place
is so many I mean, to be

538
00:41:29.039 --> 00:41:35.039
clear, I don't think it was
there was a stolen election, um um.

539
00:41:35.599 --> 00:41:37.519
But by the same token, if
somebody's going to say that there's there's

540
00:41:37.599 --> 00:41:43.440
never any election fraud anywhere, this
is obviously also false. Yeah, if

541
00:41:43.639 --> 00:41:46.159
you if you if one hundred million
people vote, the probability that the fraud

542
00:41:46.239 --> 00:41:51.039
is zero is zero. Of course, there's always going to be something.

543
00:41:51.960 --> 00:41:57.079
I mean, perhaps this election was
audited. It was so many judges.

544
00:41:57.159 --> 00:41:59.360
I mean, it went on and
on and on, and there was no

545
00:41:59.679 --> 00:42:02.519
nothing whatsoever that. I don't want
to debate this with you. My question

546
00:42:02.639 --> 00:42:06.679
is more about what I think it's
important to say, like that in any

547
00:42:06.719 --> 00:42:08.559
given election, even if you try
your hardest, if you've got one hundred

548
00:42:08.559 --> 00:42:12.400
million votes, there's gonna be some
some amount of fraud that is not zero,

549
00:42:12.639 --> 00:42:16.280
and that that it's important to acknowledge
that without saying that that the fraud

550
00:42:16.360 --> 00:42:22.960
was of sufficient magnitude to change the
outcome. So, uh so my opinion

551
00:42:22.960 --> 00:42:24.599
would be that there was some there
was some small amount of fraud, but

552
00:42:24.639 --> 00:42:27.559
it was not enough to change the
right and by the way, it might

553
00:42:27.599 --> 00:42:29.400
have been either way. I mean, you know, yeah, this is

554
00:42:29.440 --> 00:42:31.320
probably a little bit. But again
it's gonna be You're gonna let people say

555
00:42:31.360 --> 00:42:35.199
that though on on Twitter, and
then you're gonna hope that they're corrected,

556
00:42:35.199 --> 00:42:39.599
and they will be corrected. They
will be Oh, let's talk a bit

557
00:42:39.599 --> 00:42:45.360
about your tweets, um, because
it comes up a lot um even today,

558
00:42:45.639 --> 00:42:49.079
it came up in you know,
anticipation of this. I mean,

559
00:42:49.719 --> 00:42:52.199
um, you know, you do
some tweets that seem to be or at

560
00:42:52.280 --> 00:43:00.400
least give support to some who would
call others conspiracy theories. Well yes,

561
00:43:00.440 --> 00:43:07.000
but I mean honestly, you know, some of these conspiracy theories, uh

562
00:43:07.119 --> 00:43:10.840
I've turned out to be true.
Which ones, well, like the hunter

563
00:43:10.880 --> 00:43:15.599
Biden laptop that's true. Yeah yeah, so, uh you know that that

564
00:43:15.719 --> 00:43:20.800
that that was a pretty big deal. There was Twitter and and and and

565
00:43:20.880 --> 00:43:23.800
others engaged in active suppression of information
that was relevant to the public. M

566
00:43:23.840 --> 00:43:27.719
that's that's a that's a terrible thing
that happened. That's like your interference.

567
00:43:27.880 --> 00:43:31.039
But how do you make a choice
you don't see I mean in terms of

568
00:43:31.079 --> 00:43:34.719
when you're going to engage. I
mean, for example, even today,

569
00:43:35.000 --> 00:43:38.920
elon you you you tweeted this thing
about George Soros. Well, I'm looking

570
00:43:38.960 --> 00:43:42.400
for because I want to make sure
I quote it properly. But I mean,

571
00:43:42.440 --> 00:43:45.039
you know what you wrote, but
you basically this is like, you

572
00:43:45.079 --> 00:43:51.159
know, calm down, people,
this is not like you said, he

573
00:43:51.199 --> 00:43:54.440
wants to rot the very fabric of
civilization and so hates humanity. Like when

574
00:43:54.480 --> 00:43:58.800
you do something like that. Yeah, I think that's true, that's okay,

575
00:43:59.039 --> 00:44:00.840
But why share it? Why share
it? Especially because I mean,

576
00:44:01.639 --> 00:44:07.119
why share it when people who buy
Teslas may not agree with you, advertisers

577
00:44:07.199 --> 00:44:10.280
on Twitter may not agree with you. Why not just say hey, I

578
00:44:10.320 --> 00:44:13.760
think this. You can tell me, we can talk about it over there,

579
00:44:13.800 --> 00:44:17.199
you can tell your friends, But
why share it widely? I mean,

580
00:44:19.320 --> 00:44:22.119
this is a freedom of speech.
I'm allowed to say whatever you absolutely

581
00:44:22.159 --> 00:44:23.400
are, But I'm trying to understand
why you do, because you have to

582
00:44:23.400 --> 00:44:27.679
know it's gotta there. It puts
you in a in the middle of a

583
00:44:28.440 --> 00:44:31.719
the partisan divide in the country.
It makes you a lightning rod for criticism.

584
00:44:31.760 --> 00:44:36.079
I mean, do you like that. You know people today saying he's

585
00:44:36.079 --> 00:44:37.760
an anti Semite. I don't think
you are. No, I'm definitely.

586
00:44:37.840 --> 00:44:43.039
I'm like, I'm like a pro
Semite. If anything, I believe that

587
00:44:43.159 --> 00:44:46.719
probably is the case. Why would
you even introduce the idea of it that

588
00:44:46.719 --> 00:44:50.800
that would be the case. I
mean, it looks we don't want to

589
00:44:50.800 --> 00:44:52.199
make this a George Stars interview.
No, God, no, I don't.

590
00:44:52.199 --> 00:44:54.480
I don't want it at all.
But I'm what I'm trying even came

591
00:44:54.559 --> 00:44:58.280
up then when the annual meeting.
I mean, you know, do your

592
00:44:58.280 --> 00:45:00.800
tweets hurt the company? Are there
test loan ers to say I don't agree

593
00:45:00.840 --> 00:45:05.719
with his political position because and I
know it because he shares so much of

594
00:45:05.719 --> 00:45:07.840
it? Or are there advertisers on
Twitter that Linda Yak Greena will come and

595
00:45:07.880 --> 00:45:12.519
say you gotta stop man, Or
you know, I can't get these ads

596
00:45:12.559 --> 00:45:27.400
because of some of the things you
tweet. You know, I'm reminded of

597
00:45:28.840 --> 00:45:39.039
as a scene in The Princess Bride, Great Movie, Great Um where he

598
00:45:39.119 --> 00:45:50.599
confronts the person who killed his father. He says, offer me money,

599
00:45:52.239 --> 00:46:02.000
offer me power. I don't care. So you just don't care. You

600
00:46:02.000 --> 00:46:05.760
want to share what you have to
say, I'll say I don't want to

601
00:46:05.800 --> 00:46:08.519
say. And if, if,
if the consequence of that is losing money,

602
00:46:08.519 --> 00:46:15.239
so be it. Okay. But
I mean when you when you when

603
00:46:15.280 --> 00:46:21.119
you link to somebody who's talking about
the guy who killed children in a mall

604
00:46:21.239 --> 00:46:25.440
in Allen, Texas, you say
something like it might be a bad siop.

605
00:46:25.519 --> 00:46:34.599
I'm not quite sure what you meant
in that particular case. Uh,

606
00:46:34.800 --> 00:46:45.119
there was a somehow that that's that's
not not not that the that the people

607
00:46:45.199 --> 00:46:49.480
people were killed, but the it
was I think incorrectly ascribed to be a

608
00:46:49.480 --> 00:46:55.960
white supremacist action. Um. And
the evidence for that was some obscure Russian

609
00:46:57.000 --> 00:47:02.199
website that no one's everihood of that
had no followers, UM and the like.

610
00:47:02.400 --> 00:47:07.239
The company that that found this is
belling Cat. Right. Did you

611
00:47:07.239 --> 00:47:10.800
know what belling cat does? Psy
ops? Right? I couldn't really even

612
00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:15.480
follow exactly what it was you were
trying to express there, So that's part

613
00:47:15.519 --> 00:47:17.679
why I was curious. But I'm
saying I thought that the ascribing a two

614
00:47:17.679 --> 00:47:22.000
white supremacy you is bullshit okay,
and and uh and and and that the

615
00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:29.400
information for that came from an obscure
Russian website and was somehow magically found by

616
00:47:29.639 --> 00:47:34.880
Belling Cat, which is a company
that does psy ops. And there's no

617
00:47:34.920 --> 00:47:37.760
proof, by the way that he
was not. There's no I would say

618
00:47:37.800 --> 00:47:42.559
that there's no proof that he is. And that's a debate you want to

619
00:47:42.559 --> 00:47:46.199
get into on Twitter. Yes,
because we should not be ascribing things to

620
00:47:46.199 --> 00:47:52.199
why supremacy? If if there if
it's false. Okay, Um, can

621
00:47:52.199 --> 00:47:54.679
we talk about AI now? Actually
I want to talk about AI. Well,

622
00:47:54.840 --> 00:47:59.119
let me end with Twitter in the
sense of Sam Altman was on the

623
00:47:59.159 --> 00:48:05.960
Hill today and he said AI's ability
to manipulate interactive disinformation is a significant area

624
00:48:05.960 --> 00:48:10.159
of concern. It's moving so quick, it is. And how do you

625
00:48:10.199 --> 00:48:14.159
know, I'm curious to whether you
agree with that? How you see that

626
00:48:14.199 --> 00:48:17.800
even playing out on Twitter with people
who know somebody could you know look like

627
00:48:17.840 --> 00:48:22.280
you and or me and use our
voice. I don't know what it could

628
00:48:22.280 --> 00:48:25.039
be. Oh that that that that
that is happening in big time. Um.

629
00:48:25.239 --> 00:48:34.119
So the so the reason that I'm
uh asking people to be verified on

630
00:48:34.480 --> 00:48:38.559
Twitter and and and and that we're
saying okay. Verification means you've got a

631
00:48:38.559 --> 00:48:43.960
phone number from a reputable carrier,
which means that you've at least passed through

632
00:48:44.000 --> 00:48:50.360
whatever they're uh security mechanisms are that
you have a credit card, which so

633
00:48:50.440 --> 00:48:54.760
you now have passed through whatever security
mechanisms the credit card company has. And

634
00:48:54.800 --> 00:49:00.239
that there's some small amount of money
paid for a month. Um uh.

635
00:49:00.280 --> 00:49:06.760
That that set of actions um uh
significantly increases the cost of of fake accounts.

636
00:49:07.320 --> 00:49:14.480
Um and the with with modern with
with with the latest AI um it

637
00:49:14.559 --> 00:49:19.840
can bypass basically every test for are
you a human? So so then how

638
00:49:19.840 --> 00:49:23.440
do you know that a million accounts
were created? How do you know that

639
00:49:23.480 --> 00:49:29.039
those are people? I don't know. How do you exactly you have to

640
00:49:29.079 --> 00:49:32.519
do? You have to do account
verification? Um and and the thing that

641
00:49:32.559 --> 00:49:37.280
makes the like I sort of put
myself in a position of like, if

642
00:49:37.280 --> 00:49:42.280
it was my goal to manipulate public
opinion and create millions of accounts and make

643
00:49:42.280 --> 00:49:45.840
it seem as though a topic was
trending, um and and that and that

644
00:49:45.840 --> 00:49:50.599
this is actually what public beliefs um
and But in order to do so,

645
00:49:50.679 --> 00:49:54.559
I had to get a million phone
numbers, a million credit card numbers and

646
00:49:54.719 --> 00:50:00.480
pay uh you know, eight bucks
a month, um and and and have

647
00:50:00.639 --> 00:50:06.519
that old not be traceable and clustered. I'd say it's impossible, impossible,

648
00:50:06.920 --> 00:50:12.960
So that the goal of the uh
of the sort of Twitter verification is fundamentally

649
00:50:13.360 --> 00:50:17.599
to prevent AI manipulation of the system. UM. Final question on Twitter,

650
00:50:19.159 --> 00:50:23.239
Walter Isaacson, your biographer, He
said your big goal for Twitter is disrupting

651
00:50:23.239 --> 00:50:30.400
the banking industry. Oh. Um, I'd say that's that's that's a that's

652
00:50:30.480 --> 00:50:34.880
a look. First of all,
I don't want to disrupt something with the

653
00:50:34.920 --> 00:50:37.159
sake of disrupting it. It's more
like, if there is a better product,

654
00:50:37.239 --> 00:50:40.719
that's great. But I'm not output
disruption for thesatic disruption. I'm like,

655
00:50:42.159 --> 00:50:45.039
if if you're gonna make a product
that improves a quality of life for

656
00:50:45.119 --> 00:50:51.280
people that they find more useful,
that that's great. UM and Uh,

657
00:50:51.840 --> 00:50:54.519
what what people see in PayPal is
sort of like sort of a halfway.

658
00:50:55.719 --> 00:51:00.039
It's sort of a sort of it's
frankly a half baked version of what it

659
00:51:00.039 --> 00:51:06.000
could be. UM and um and
so I think there's potential to create,

660
00:51:06.360 --> 00:51:14.280
um a more efficient financial system.
UM and here we can get again quite

661
00:51:14.360 --> 00:51:19.000
quite esoteric sort of into sort of
information theory. But um, the actual

662
00:51:19.039 --> 00:51:23.559
financial system today is a heterogeneous set
of databases running on mainframes and cobal um

663
00:51:23.599 --> 00:51:30.400
that still engage in batch processing.
It's really quite uh, very inefficient UM

664
00:51:30.639 --> 00:51:35.360
so UM things are still not real
time UM and and so it's possible to

665
00:51:35.400 --> 00:51:40.320
have um a much more efficient homogeneous
real time data system. Money is just

666
00:51:40.400 --> 00:51:49.119
information um and and so the so. But that's not like the only reason.

667
00:51:49.159 --> 00:51:53.320
It's it's just a thing that that
would be I think poetic to fulfill

668
00:51:53.440 --> 00:52:01.079
ultimately the vision that I had for
X over twenty three years ago, and

669
00:52:01.320 --> 00:52:06.000
and and actually see that count tuition
would be nice. But but there are

670
00:52:06.039 --> 00:52:09.320
many other things for Twitter, it's
not just financials. Well, you talk

671
00:52:09.360 --> 00:52:14.639
about enhancing humanity. You know,
I'm curious than a bad AI, which

672
00:52:14.679 --> 00:52:19.800
many people say will lead to great
productivity gains. You showed those robots.

673
00:52:20.239 --> 00:52:22.519
I mean, I can imagine what
they conceivably could do empowered by AI.

674
00:52:22.599 --> 00:52:27.760
But I'm also curious, because you've
certainly been concerned, what percentage do you

675
00:52:27.800 --> 00:52:36.199
give the chance that it will destroy
humanity? Well, the advent of artificial

676
00:52:36.239 --> 00:52:40.480
general intelligence is cool to seeingularity because
it is so hard to predict what will

677
00:52:40.480 --> 00:52:46.960
happen after that. I think it's
it's it's very much a double double edged

678
00:52:47.000 --> 00:52:51.679
sword. I think it's there's there's
a there's a strong probability that it will

679
00:52:51.719 --> 00:52:58.000
make life much better and that will
have an age of abundance, and there's

680
00:52:58.000 --> 00:53:02.960
some chance that it goes wrong um
and UH destroys humanity. Hopefully that chance

681
00:53:04.039 --> 00:53:06.639
is small, but it's not zero
um. And so I think we want

682
00:53:06.639 --> 00:53:09.880
to take whatever actions we can think
of to minimize the probability that AI grows.

683
00:53:10.159 --> 00:53:13.639
You've called for a pause, along
with the number of other people.

684
00:53:13.719 --> 00:53:15.760
Yes, I look when I call
for the A friend of mine, Max

685
00:53:15.800 --> 00:53:20.960
Tegmark, as a business said at
M I t um, you know,

686
00:53:21.000 --> 00:53:22.920
I wanted me to sign onto the
letter, and it's it's like I knew

687
00:53:22.960 --> 00:53:27.760
it would be futile. It is
futile. I knew it would be futile.

688
00:53:27.800 --> 00:53:29.599
I just want to could call it
like it's one of those things.

689
00:53:29.599 --> 00:53:32.400
Well, for the record, I
recommended that we pause. Uh. Did

690
00:53:32.480 --> 00:53:37.559
I think we would there would be
a pause? Absolutely not. So you're

691
00:53:37.639 --> 00:53:44.079
starting uh x AI, I think
that's what you're calling it or some new

692
00:53:44.119 --> 00:53:47.599
AI effort. UM. How is
it going to be different than Open AI

693
00:53:49.440 --> 00:53:57.360
or alphabet this is this is not
the time to to this. I we

694
00:53:57.400 --> 00:53:59.800
don't have enough time and and order. Is this the moment to really talk

695
00:53:59.800 --> 00:54:05.480
at it? Um, we will
have a launch event and will explore the

696
00:54:05.760 --> 00:54:12.000
issues in more detail. But UM, I should say that that, and

697
00:54:12.039 --> 00:54:20.239
I mentioned this at the shareholder meeting, that UM Tesla has actually um tremendous

698
00:54:20.320 --> 00:54:23.360
capability in real world AI. Yes, in fact, it is very far

699
00:54:23.400 --> 00:54:28.039
ahead of of anyone. I know. People actually on Twitter prior to our

700
00:54:28.079 --> 00:54:30.400
interview, we're saying, you know, he never gets asked about how advanced

701
00:54:30.679 --> 00:54:37.119
his AI is A Tesla. You
always talk about the other names. TESLAI

702
00:54:37.320 --> 00:54:40.880
is like said by It's like there's
not I'm not even sure who's second.

703
00:54:40.920 --> 00:54:44.280
Frankly, Um, why is that? What? Then? What? What

704
00:54:44.320 --> 00:54:45.880
are people not understanding about what you
have? And why are we talking so

705
00:54:45.920 --> 00:54:51.760
much about chat GPT in generative AI, that open AI and what Microsoft's cann

706
00:54:51.760 --> 00:54:53.719
be able to do with it and
not about Tesla. I don't know.

707
00:54:53.840 --> 00:55:00.719
I mean people do talk about it
online. UM. I think I think

708
00:55:00.760 --> 00:55:04.920
Tesla will have sort of a chat
GPT moment maybe that If not this year,

709
00:55:04.960 --> 00:55:07.599
i'd say no. Later the next
year, Um, wait, say

710
00:55:07.639 --> 00:55:09.960
that again. I'm sorry, You're
gonna have a sort of chat GPT moment.

711
00:55:10.079 --> 00:55:14.400
Oh you will. In terms of
suddenly it will Yeah, suddenly,

712
00:55:14.440 --> 00:55:15.920
three million cars we will drive themselves
with no one. Right, it goes

713
00:55:15.960 --> 00:55:19.639
back to that, right, yeah, and then five million cars and then

714
00:55:19.840 --> 00:55:24.599
ten million cars. So um,
the and and and and and I would

715
00:55:24.599 --> 00:55:30.840
I would also say that if if
positions were reversed, um and say um,

716
00:55:30.960 --> 00:55:32.559
Well, in fact, the positions
are are reversed. For example,

717
00:55:32.880 --> 00:55:37.599
Google has way Moo, which is, you know, sort of attempting self

718
00:55:37.679 --> 00:55:40.599
driving, and they are able to
make self driving work in a very limited

719
00:55:42.400 --> 00:55:45.199
geography with with very tightly mapped streets. But as soon as any as soon

720
00:55:45.239 --> 00:55:49.519
as that anything goes wrong with those
streets, like there's an accident or a

721
00:55:49.519 --> 00:55:55.880
parade um or road construction, uh, it stops working. Basically, Google

722
00:55:55.960 --> 00:56:01.760
is unable to produce a generalized alution
to self driving that works anywhere. They've

723
00:56:01.760 --> 00:56:06.480
been trying to that for a long
time they have been unsuccessful. Tesla basically

724
00:56:06.679 --> 00:56:10.840
has that and is far more advanced
that than Google. Yea, and so

725
00:56:12.360 --> 00:56:16.400
if the positions were reversed and you
said, okay, um, Tesla's got

726
00:56:16.400 --> 00:56:22.880
to produce a large language model that
has output equal to a greater than Chat,

727
00:56:22.920 --> 00:56:27.199
GBT or Microsoft. Opening Eye has
to do self driving, and we

728
00:56:27.519 --> 00:56:30.920
just we flipped the tasks. Tesla
would win, you'd win. Yes,

729
00:56:30.239 --> 00:56:34.199
you have a computing power and everything
else. You have to do it absolutely.

730
00:56:35.239 --> 00:56:37.840
Um I'm being told we don't have
that much time. You can you

731
00:56:37.880 --> 00:56:42.599
give me another five minutes or yeah, I think so, I do have

732
00:56:42.599 --> 00:56:45.000
a board meeting. I know I
five five minutes is probably fine. Sure,

733
00:56:45.119 --> 00:56:52.840
okay, thank you, um um
open Ai. I mean you seem

734
00:56:52.880 --> 00:56:57.239
somewhat frustrated with them. You were
one of the big contributors early on the

735
00:56:57.280 --> 00:57:00.440
reason I am the reason Opening Eye
exists. How much money did you give

736
00:57:00.519 --> 00:57:07.360
them? Um so. Uh,
I'm not sure the exact number, but

737
00:57:07.360 --> 00:57:14.679
it's some some number on the order
of fifty million dollars. So the man

738
00:57:14.760 --> 00:57:20.320
fate loves irony next level, um
So. I used to be close friends

739
00:57:20.320 --> 00:57:22.320
with our page, and I would
say at his house and we'd have these

740
00:57:22.320 --> 00:57:28.000
conversations long long into the evening about
AI and I would I would be constantly

741
00:57:28.119 --> 00:57:32.079
urging him to be careful about the
danger of AI, and and and and

742
00:57:32.159 --> 00:57:37.599
he just he was really not concerned
about the danger of AI, and was

743
00:57:37.239 --> 00:57:45.920
quite cavalier about it. Um and
and and and At the time, Google,

744
00:57:45.000 --> 00:57:49.039
especially after their acquisition of deep Mind, had three quarters of the world's

745
00:57:49.079 --> 00:57:52.440
AI talent. They had obviously a
lot of computers and a lot of money.

746
00:57:52.920 --> 00:57:55.719
Um, so it was a unipolar
world for four AI and and we've

747
00:57:55.719 --> 00:58:00.960
got a unipolar world. But but
the the person who who controls that does

748
00:58:00.000 --> 00:58:04.880
not, or at least do not
seem to be concerned about AI safety.

749
00:58:05.440 --> 00:58:09.239
That that sound that sounded like a
real problem. So um. And then

750
00:58:09.400 --> 00:58:16.079
the final straw was Larry calling me
a speciist for being um pro human consciousness

751
00:58:16.159 --> 00:58:19.960
instead of machine consciousness. And I'm
like, well, yes, I guess

752
00:58:20.039 --> 00:58:22.840
I am. I. I am
a specist. And so right, so

753
00:58:23.000 --> 00:58:27.360
you helped to the creation of open
AI. You put as much as fifty

754
00:58:27.760 --> 00:58:30.320
dollars more than help. It wouldn't
exist with that. It wouldn't exist with

755
00:58:30.320 --> 00:58:34.880
that. I came up with a
name. The name opening Eye refers to

756
00:58:34.880 --> 00:58:37.599
open source. So it's the intent
was what's the okay? So what was

757
00:58:37.639 --> 00:58:43.880
the opposite? What's the opposite of
of Google? Would would be an open

758
00:58:43.920 --> 00:58:49.519
source nonprofit because Google is closed sourced, poor profit um and that profit motivation

759
00:58:49.599 --> 00:58:54.599
can be potentially dangerous. Um.
So uh, should you've gotten governance for

760
00:58:54.639 --> 00:58:58.920
that money? Should you have gotten
some level of control perhaps in retrospect?

761
00:59:02.760 --> 00:59:09.960
Yeah, I fully admit to being
a huge ilient here um so um anyway,

762
00:59:10.000 --> 00:59:14.039
So, so Opening I was meant
to be. Opening I opened as

763
00:59:14.079 --> 00:59:17.880
an open source. It was created
as a buy one C three um and

764
00:59:19.920 --> 00:59:22.840
but but so so part of it
is also in the beginning, I thought,

765
00:59:22.920 --> 00:59:24.960
look, this is this is probably
a hopeless endeavor. How could we

766
00:59:25.000 --> 00:59:30.639
possibly compete with How could Opening I
possibly compete with with Google Deep Mind?

767
00:59:30.719 --> 00:59:34.800
I mean this, this seemed like
an ant against an elephant, you know,

768
00:59:34.840 --> 00:59:42.199
which is not a contest um and
um. And I was also,

769
00:59:45.559 --> 00:59:53.440
I mean I I was instrumental in
recruiting that the key scientists and engineers,

770
00:59:53.519 --> 01:00:00.400
most specifically, most notably Elias skier
Um. In fact, Elia went back

771
01:00:00.440 --> 01:00:05.719
and forth several times because he would
say he's going to join an Opening Eye,

772
01:00:05.760 --> 01:00:07.920
then Demis would convince him not to. Then I would convince him to

773
01:00:07.920 --> 01:00:10.679
do so, and then and this
went back and forth several times, and

774
01:00:10.840 --> 01:00:15.480
ultimately decided to join an Opening Eye, and really Eliot joining was the was

775
01:00:15.760 --> 01:00:21.039
the lynchman for Opening Eye being ultimately
successful. You're very disappointed in what's happened

776
01:00:21.039 --> 01:00:30.119
there. In terms of it becoming
a for profit. I do think that

777
01:00:30.159 --> 01:00:37.960
there's some Look, it does seem
weird that something can be um a nonprofit

778
01:00:39.239 --> 01:00:46.440
open source and somehow transform itself into
a for profit closed source. UM.

779
01:00:46.480 --> 01:00:50.440
I mean this would be like like, let's say you funded an organization to

780
01:00:50.480 --> 01:00:54.719
save the Amazon rain forest and instead
they became a lumber company and chopped down

781
01:00:54.719 --> 01:00:59.599
the forest and sold it for money. And you'd be therefore like, well,

782
01:00:59.679 --> 01:01:01.880
wait a second, that's the exact
opposite of what I gave the money

783
01:01:01.920 --> 01:01:07.719
for. Is that legal? That
doesn't seem legal? And if it is,

784
01:01:08.079 --> 01:01:14.320
and in general, if it is
legal to start a company as a

785
01:01:14.400 --> 01:01:19.039
nonprofit and then take the IP and
transfer it to a for profit that then

786
01:01:19.159 --> 01:01:22.679
makes tons of money, shouldn't everyone
start? Shouldn't that be the default?

787
01:01:25.840 --> 01:01:31.280
And and and then I also think
it's important to understand the like like when

788
01:01:31.280 --> 01:01:36.039
push comes to shove, let's say
they do create some some digital superintelligence,

789
01:01:36.679 --> 01:01:42.079
almost godlike intelligence, Well, who's
in control and what exactly is the relationship

790
01:01:42.159 --> 01:01:46.039
between Open and I and Microsoft,
and I do worry that Microsoft actually may

791
01:01:46.039 --> 01:01:50.679
be more in control than say,
the leadership team and Opening Eye realizes.

792
01:01:51.800 --> 01:01:54.920
I mean Microsoft had as part of
the Microsoft investment, they have rights to

793
01:01:54.960 --> 01:02:00.159
all of the software, all of
the model weights, and everything necessary each

794
01:02:00.239 --> 01:02:04.360
run the inference system, so they
essentially have a great deal of control.

795
01:02:05.639 --> 01:02:09.599
At any point, Microsoft could cut
off Open the Eye. Elan, I'm

796
01:02:09.599 --> 01:02:14.280
being told we have to wrap up. Your board has been very satient.

797
01:02:14.519 --> 01:02:16.960
I want to end on one AI
question. You have a lot of kids.

798
01:02:17.079 --> 01:02:22.280
I have some kids. I have
one who's actually soon to go into

799
01:02:22.320 --> 01:02:27.400
the workforce. I struggle with how
to advise him about a career when this

800
01:02:27.480 --> 01:02:31.000
technology exists and will only improve.
I'm just curious when you think about advising

801
01:02:31.000 --> 01:02:35.880
your children on a career with so
much that is changing, what do you

802
01:02:35.960 --> 01:02:52.679
tell them there's going to be a
value. Well, that's a tough question

803
01:02:52.679 --> 01:03:02.800
to answer. I guess UM.
I would just say, you know,

804
01:03:02.880 --> 01:03:07.000
to to sort of follow their heart
in terms of what they find interesting to

805
01:03:07.039 --> 01:03:13.639
do or fulfilling to do. UM
and UM, you know, try to

806
01:03:13.679 --> 01:03:20.000
be as useful as possible to the
rest of society. UM. You know,

807
01:03:20.039 --> 01:03:22.920
if we do get to the sort
of like magic Genie situation where um,

808
01:03:23.039 --> 01:03:29.199
you can ask the A for for
anything. Um. And let's say

809
01:03:29.199 --> 01:03:31.320
it's even the benign scenario. Let's
say it's a benign scenario. How do

810
01:03:31.360 --> 01:03:37.079
we actually find fulfillment? You know, it's a how do we find meaning

811
01:03:37.079 --> 01:03:39.719
in life? If the air I
could do your job better than you can.

812
01:03:40.559 --> 01:03:47.000
Um. I mean, if I
think about it too hot it correctly,

813
01:03:47.000 --> 01:03:54.880
it can be uh just dispiriting and
demotivating. Um, Because I mean

814
01:03:54.920 --> 01:04:00.840
I I go through I mean I
I've put a lot of blood, swen

815
01:04:00.880 --> 01:04:03.440
and tears into building companies. And
then and then I'm like, wait,

816
01:04:03.480 --> 01:04:09.519
well should I be doing this?
Because if I'm sacrificing time with friends and

817
01:04:09.559 --> 01:04:14.400
family that I would prefer to do. But then ultimately the AI can do

818
01:04:14.440 --> 01:04:19.119
all these things. Does that make
sense? I don't know. To some

819
01:04:19.199 --> 01:04:24.360
extent, I have to have deliberate
suspension of disbelief in order to remain motivated.

820
01:04:26.320 --> 01:04:31.960
So I guess I would say,
just you know, welcome things that

821
01:04:32.000 --> 01:04:39.000
you find interesting, fulfilling and that
contribute some good to the rest of society.

822
01:04:39.039 --> 01:04:41.840
Well, that's a great place to
end. There's so much we didn't

823
01:04:41.840 --> 01:04:44.239
get to. I hope you'll give
me another chance to sit down with you.

824
01:04:44.280 --> 01:04:46.079
But Elan, thank you for being
so generous with your time, Thanks

825
01:04:46.079 --> 01:04:49.800
to your board for waiting as well, and thanks for having us here at

826
01:04:49.840 --> 01:04:56.920
this incredible facility. Appreciate it.
Thank you all right, pleasure Carl.

827
01:04:56.960 --> 01:05:15.679
I'm going to send it back to
you numberststst