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You're listening to the Mind Over Murder
podcast. My name is Bill Thomas.

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I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now

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trying to use my experience as the
brother of a murder victim to help other

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victims of violent crime. I'm working
on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway

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murders and I'm the co administrator of
the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with

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Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin
Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher,

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a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media

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manager and co administrator for the Colonial
Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in

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crime, Bill Thomas. And we're
joined today by Judy Nobling here to talk

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to us about David Nobling. Judy, thank you so much for joining us

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on Mind Ever Murder. You're welcome, christ nice being here. Judy,

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what are some of the words that
you would use to describe David as a

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person. David was a little awkward
who was like a fifteen year old all

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in a six foot body like.
At times, he was very protective,

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he was kind, gentle. He
was also a people pleaser. He wanted

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everybody to get along, very considerate. Yeah, that pretty much described him

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a very gentle giant. We've seen
a lot of pictures of David over the

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years, and we see this freckle
faced, cute kid who looks a little

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mischievous, perhaps then grow up to
be this really handsome young guy. Yeah.

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Did he realize that he wasn't the
awkward kid anymore and that he was

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particularly you see him in his military
uniform, and did he understand that he?

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I think he finally did when he
was in his military uniform and everything

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after that, But before then,
no, he was. It was very

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awkward and very immature for his age, he really was. But just because

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he's very protective. He was very
protective. I had David when I was

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sixteen, and it was just him
and me for a long time because I

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got divorced right away, so it
was him and me for a long time

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there. And so when you say
protective, you mean of you in particular,

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of me, of his brother,
of anybody. He was a very

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protective type. He would look out
for anybody. He was. He thought

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he was a big, strong,
strapping dude, you know what I mean?

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When actually he was skinny as a
runch. Oh, it's funny.

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The pictures are deceptive because he looks
very broad shouldered. Yeah, maybe it

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might be. Was about a twenty
one for our listeners, give us a

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little context about your family in David's
place in it was his birth order in

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the family. Who did he relate
to the best, that sort of thing.

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It took family very seriously. He
was the oldest grandchild, okay,

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the first grandchild born, and he
took that very seriously. I can remember.

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He tried to look out for everybody
else. I remember one time his

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last Easter at my grand at my
parents, and the kids then were about

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twelve thirteen, most of them,
okay, and he's like the eighteen nineteen

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year old, right, So he's
saying, okay, let's have an Easter

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egg hunt, and they're all going, we're too old for that. He's

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a whome. No, everybody get
inside. We're having an Easter egg hunt,

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you know. Of course, And
of course he goes out there and

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hides Easter eggs and all these kids
come out there and everybody had a blast.

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Of course. That was him though, right there. He wanted to

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be. He was a people person. He liked to be around people and

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wanted everybody to have fun, everybody
to like him. And it sounds like

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he was the Easter egg hunt organizer
in that example. He was yeah,

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he was yeah, he had to
be in charge. Now. Was that

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part of the military training that he'd
had or was that just his nature?

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I think that was just his nature. I think it was. He didn't

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care for military school when he first
went. He was like thirteen fourteen years

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old, I think. But he
went to military school up in Chatham at

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Hart Great Military Academy, and it
was really difficult. It was really difficult

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for him. At first, he
hated it. He was complaining. Way

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to come home, he had to
march for hours in the rain. I

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shuddered to think what he did to
deserve that. And then he finally got

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used to it a little bit.
My brother lived up there and his family

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would come get him for weekends and
that helped out a lot. So then

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when he come back here, I
couldn't afford but that first year. But

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then when he come back that summer, he decided he wanted to go to

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military school. So he enrolled in
at Frederick Military Academy in Portsmouth. So

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that was closer and less expensive.
Michael and I could run over every Friday

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afternoon and pick him up and then
take him back every Sunday. It was

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really good. Then life was really
good. Then that was a great time.

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He and Michael developed a close bond. Unfortunately, yeah, unfortunately the

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school closed down. Though. What
was the idea of the military school?

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Did you feel that he needed that
level of discipline or some focus? You

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see his stepdad, Carl and I
separated when he was eleven and Michael was

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seven. Okay. I didn't realize
how devastating that would be for the boys,

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and it was, and Carl was
very upset with me at the time,

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and he refused to visit with the
boys, okay, and that just

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hurt him, and they both just
acted out. And here I am with

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the two boys at home, and
I'm trying to go to work, and

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I'm getting calls of busted windows and
this and that, and I just I

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couldn't work and worry about them.
So something had to be done, and

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I couldn't send them to Carl.
So I enrolled David in military school in

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retrospect to work. At the time, it did seem to work at the

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time, it was helpful. Yeah, but he did end up when he

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came back home, then he surprised
me by getting his ged. He didn't

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want to go back to public school, so he got his ged because he

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knew how much I valued education.
So I went out and immediately got him

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a high scho ring. He was
just tickled to death with that. What

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you prompably gave to a girlfriend and
lost. So then when it was found

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after his death, though, it
ended up being turned over to Carl,

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so I haven't seen it. So
what were some of David's hopes and dreams

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and future plans at the time of
his death? What was he eventually hoping

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to do long term? I honestly
don't know. I really don't know.

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First of all, his Tara was
pregnant at the time, so he was

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looking forward to being a father.
But he worked at the time at the

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Water Purification Plan selling water purification systems
and he had just got to his first

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paycheck that week when he died,
and he was really good at that.

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He was a talker. He can
talk his way pretty much into anything.

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Yes, I honestly don't know what
would have happened. I really don't know.

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I'm sure he would have been successful
because he's he was hard headed and

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determined. I can remember when he
went to when he wanted to get a

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truck after he got his driver's license, and I told him that I would

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co sign for him, and I
put the down payment down right off.

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We go to the store and he
wanted a brand new truck, A brand

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new truck. Blah blah blah.
We'll come back another day. And then

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I think the next day he comes
driving up in this truck that we had

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looked at that I told him he
couldn't have. He says, I financed

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it, so, yeah, he
could manage to do that. I said,

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okay, fine, I'll do it
anyway. So after he died,

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I ended up having to pay for
the truck. Oh that's right. Some

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people, his brother and other friends, had said that he was almost like

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a super salesman though in other words, he connected with people. I don't

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know if it was Michael or somebody
else's brother who said he was one of

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those ice cubes to Eskimo's kind of
salesman, that he could have sold anyone

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anything because he had that charm.
He did, he really did. Of

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course, I was strict on him. I can remember one time I got

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a call from Ford Motor Credit saying
they hadn't received his payment on that truck.

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So I go over to his place
in the middle of the night because

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I had a key, after all, I co signed part my car,

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right, that's right truck rather,
So I go over and I move his

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truck so he couldn't find it.
Then I call him and tell him,

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if you can't make the payments,
then you can't get the car the truck.

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Anyway, a little lesson and responsibility
exactly. Turn out the check was

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in the mail and it just didn't
get there. But anyway, that didn't

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happen again. He was very careful
about making the payments and ahead of time.

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What was David's relationship like with Tara
You mentioned her previously. We know

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she was pregnant at the time of
his death. What were their plans were

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you were aware of? They had
dated for a couple of years. She

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lived with her grandparents and David was
over there all the time. He thought

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a lot of her grandparents, and
they felt the same way about him up

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until she got pregnant anyway, and
of course he died before the baby was

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born. I think they were breaking
up. I'm not sure it wasn't.

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They were not on the best of
terms at the time, and he was

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trying to decide if he should marry
or not marry, or it wasn't any

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issue about taking care of the baby. He was looking forward to the baby.

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But I don't know what would have
happened with that relationship because he really

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wasn't quite sure that the baby was
his at the time. But Tarah no

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Tera seems to have a different perception. Of course, she's looking back on

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things more than thirty years later as
well. Yeah, true, Yeah,

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I visited in the hospital and the
baby was born, and then I kept

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up the relationship with her. And
just for clarification for our listeners, in

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this next section, we are talking
about David and Tara's daughter Ashley until she

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moved got married and moved away to
Texas really and then she got divorced after

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five or six years and come back
here, and she didn't have custody of

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the boys, two boys by then. But I had gone to visit her

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down there, and I realized that
her life was miserable. She was working

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as a waitress or something, and
she was just paying child support. That

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was all she did. She was
renting a room. She had a crummy

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job and no car, no training, no family in Texas. So I

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convinced her to come back to Virginia
and go to school, which she did.

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She come back, she became a
paralegal and stayed here for several years,

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and then she missed the boys.
They needed her, and so she

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moved back there. And that's where
she is now. So I don't get

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to see her, but but a
couple of times a year, and the

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boys maybe once a year. Really
missed. No, she moved back to

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Texas about year and a half ago. Yeah, I guess it's possible she

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might have been up in Virginia when
we were shooting the Lover's Lane. Oh

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yeah, she was here then,
yeah, Okay, got it. So

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she's back in Texas now, Oh
yeah, yeah. And then she was

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up here and she she went to
school. She worked at the law firm

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where I worked for five five to
six years. Yeah, Oh, I

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didn't know that. That's very interesting. Are you still with that law firm?

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No, I retired. I retired
about five years ago, but she

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was still there when I left.
We're talking about Ashley, Tara's daughter,

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Ashley would not have anything to do
with her mother. M h. I

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have never talked to Tara at all
since this, since any of this.

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Maybe one time, but no,
Tara was a drug addict, Okay.

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That's why Ashley was with her grandmother
on her mother's side, got it,

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Okay, Sorry for the Yeah.
When all this happens, and I've tried

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to convince Ashley to talk to her
mother, but she won't. She just

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she will not forgive her for the
way she treated her. It was very

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difficult for and Ashley. We were
referencing him a few minutes ago. It's

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Ashley that's been back and forth between
Texas and Virginia. Yes, and she

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had two sons. How did David
know Robin Edwards and her family? He

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really didn't, okay. So he
had his own apartment. I convinced him

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to move in with me because I
was having financial problems and it wasn't all

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great for him either. So he
moved in and moved back home. And

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he was hanging around the house one
night when their cousin, Jason, who

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is more Michael's age, okay,
was spending the night, and then he

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had he had been talking to a
girl that he knew who was Robin,

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who had been in some kind of
a I don't know, halfway house or

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something like that, and she had
just gotten back home again and she wanted

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to go out. I think they
wanted to go to movies or something,

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so David agreed to take them all
out. You're listening to mind Over Murder.

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00:14:31,759 --> 00:14:35,960
in mindover Murder podcast. You can
also look for links on our social media

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00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:43,000
pages and in our show notes.
We're back here at Mindover Murder. Anyway,

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they go out, Jason, Michael
David, and they come back in

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just a little while and tell me
the movie sold out. David wants to

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know if he should go back to
her house and tell her parents that the

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movie sold out. We want to
go to the arcade and play some video

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games, and I said, no, I don't think so just get her

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back when she's supposed to be on
time. I think that would be fine.

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And so off they go again.
And then later on they come back.

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They had already dropped her off and
everything. We're sitting around eating pizza

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anyway, so David decides he's going
out again. It was late eleven thirty

216
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or so, but he's twenty years
old. I don't tell him whatever.

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So he goes, and so that
was it. I did not hear from

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him anymore. We went on to
bed next morning with Sunday, so we

219
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slept in and I didn't think it
unusual that he wasn't there, because lots

220
00:15:31,799 --> 00:15:33,840
of times he gets He's a get
up and go kind of person. So

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I figured maybe he got up and
he's gone on his way wherever. But

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then by the afternoon I hadn't heard
from him. By dinner time, I

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hadn't heard from him. That's when
I started getting worried and started calling all

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00:15:46,039 --> 00:15:52,120
around everywhere, and I couldn't nobody
had ever seen him heard from him or

225
00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:56,240
anything. I finally called the police. I don't know who was dinner the

226
00:15:56,240 --> 00:16:00,039
next day or whatever. There was
no problem to them, there was It

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00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,240
hadn't been enough time. He's not
a missing person, he's an adult.

228
00:16:03,799 --> 00:16:07,080
Couldn't do anything about it. And
would that have been twenty four or more

229
00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:11,240
hours since you had seen him by
that point when you were talking with the

230
00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:14,600
police, it had been twenty four, but at that time I think it

231
00:16:14,639 --> 00:16:17,639
had to be at least forty eight. And he was a grown man from

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the and he was a grown man. Yeah. Police, even when they

233
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found his truck over at Ragged Island, they said, it doesn't look like

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there's been foul play, and he's
an adult, there's still no problem.

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Even with the clothes in the cab
of the truck. They didn't see a

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problem. Nope. They didn't see
a problem. Nope. Did they offer

237
00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:42,440
any thoughts as to why they thought? From everything we've heard from Michael David's

238
00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:48,240
brother, that Ford Ranger pickup was
his pride and joy. Oh yeah,

239
00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,879
that was definitely his baby. Oh
yeah, nobody. They would not have

240
00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:55,200
left it like that. He would
not have left it. We all knew

241
00:16:55,279 --> 00:16:59,879
he would not have left his truck
unattended, and Mules made the point as

242
00:16:59,879 --> 00:17:03,960
well that David was in the habit
of always parking his truck nose out.

243
00:17:04,519 --> 00:17:07,720
It was a thing was back into
the space, which I know is is

244
00:17:07,759 --> 00:17:12,200
a car guy truck guy thing.
And yet here the truck was pulled nose

245
00:17:12,279 --> 00:17:18,079
in to the space, unlocked,
unlocked with the keys in the ignition,

246
00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:23,039
if we understand correctly, I think
so, yeah, and his wallet up

247
00:17:23,039 --> 00:17:29,319
on the dashboard. I think law
enforcement didn't seem to think that all those

248
00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:33,519
little things were unusual. Nope.
I just said, maybe he was in

249
00:17:33,519 --> 00:17:37,240
a hurry to get somewhere. And
there's no broken windows, and there's no

250
00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:42,799
drag marks or anything. There's no
blood anywhere. Everything's fine. So it

251
00:17:42,839 --> 00:17:47,880
took carassing them for several days,
or maybe it took forty eight hours for

252
00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:49,759
him to be missing. I don't
know what it was. But finally they

253
00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:53,799
took us seriously. But by then
they had insisted that we moved the truck,

254
00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:57,720
so I had the truck toed over. I asked Carl if it keep

255
00:17:57,759 --> 00:18:02,200
it at his place, because I
really didn't. I said, look,

256
00:18:02,279 --> 00:18:06,440
something's wrong and I really don't want
to reminder at my house constantly. So

257
00:18:06,519 --> 00:18:10,240
anyway, so they took it over
there, and it seems that eventually they

258
00:18:10,279 --> 00:18:12,640
come over there to take fingerprints or
something, but by then the truck has

259
00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:18,279
already been gone through. I'm sorry, go ahead. I think they ended

260
00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:21,599
up dropping the fingerprints or something.
Maybe I don't know if they've dropped them

261
00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:26,000
or lost them or what. But
anyway, we've heard a story that the

262
00:18:26,079 --> 00:18:30,720
print cards were dropped in the driveway. I think that's what Carl told us.

263
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,559
David's dad, Carl did agree to
take the truck. Did they toe

264
00:18:33,599 --> 00:18:37,799
it to Carl's house or did they
drop I don't remember. Yeah, I

265
00:18:37,839 --> 00:18:41,240
don't remember. Yeah, I don't
remember. I think they towed it,

266
00:18:41,279 --> 00:18:45,480
but I don't remember. We're talking
about when we say they regarding law enforcement,

267
00:18:45,599 --> 00:18:48,720
what agency are you dealing with?
Do you recall, no, was

268
00:18:48,759 --> 00:18:52,559
this Isle of White, Sheriff.
I would think it would be all of

269
00:18:52,599 --> 00:18:55,759
White. I think it was Isle
of Light. And you were living in

270
00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:59,480
Newport News at the time. Correct. I was living in Hampton, Hampton,

271
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Okay, So you were not dealing
with Hampton PD or any agencies on

272
00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:07,319
that side of the river. You
were dealing with Isle of Wight on the

273
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far side of the James River,
but that's where the truck was. Am

274
00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:15,559
I reading into things? It sounds
like you had some difficulty having Isle of

275
00:19:15,599 --> 00:19:19,799
Wight take things seriously. Oh yeah, definitely. And were any other agencies

276
00:19:19,839 --> 00:19:23,519
involved at that point, Not that
I know of, Not that I know

277
00:19:23,599 --> 00:19:27,400
of. I don't even remember talking
to them. After I talked to them

278
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:33,640
that first time. My dad and
I went back up there several times before

279
00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:37,640
he was the body was found.
Carl was up there. I think we

280
00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:42,319
had just gotten home one time when
they found the body and I saw it

281
00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:47,000
on television. That's how I knew
my son was dead. Do you mind

282
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was on the news? Do you
mind telling us how that happened? I

283
00:19:51,599 --> 00:19:53,319
don't know how that happened. I
was from your point of view though,

284
00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:57,759
In other words, you're at home
watching television. And did they say that

285
00:19:59,319 --> 00:20:03,240
they had a a break in that
case or did they just blurted out over

286
00:20:03,319 --> 00:20:07,880
the over the television news. No, this was just the news. Okay,

287
00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:11,160
this was just the news. And
actually I do remember being over there

288
00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:15,440
one time though, when David and
I were over there, when we realized

289
00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:19,640
that the shoes in the truck belonged
to Robin Michael recognized them as I don't

290
00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,920
know if they had writing on them
or be dazzled or something like that,

291
00:20:23,039 --> 00:20:26,920
but there were doodles on them like
drawings. Yeah, that was when I

292
00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:30,880
called his dad then and told him
that he was missing and all that kind

293
00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:33,599
of stuff. So I had called
my boss and told him I wouldn't be

294
00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:37,640
in and he came over and picked
me up, and we went over there

295
00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:40,640
and he walked through it. But
anyway, I went back. He wanted

296
00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:41,559
me to go back to work.
So I went back to work for a

297
00:20:41,599 --> 00:20:45,960
couple of hours, and who could
concentrate, do you know what I mean?

298
00:20:45,079 --> 00:20:48,200
So I left to care. Sure, Yeah, we went back over

299
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:52,839
there. We just kept hanging back
over there. And so anyway, so

300
00:20:52,079 --> 00:20:56,799
the police did asked that we moved
his truck, and I asked Carl to

301
00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:00,960
keep it to his place. And
I don't remember talking to the hardly at

302
00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,359
all. I'm sure I must have, but I was totally in shock.

303
00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:07,559
And after I heard he was dead, and it was on the news is

304
00:21:07,799 --> 00:21:11,920
where I heard it. They were
showing a body bag being hauled off.

305
00:21:11,279 --> 00:21:17,200
And did they actually use David and
Robin's names? No? Not. Then

306
00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:21,680
I don't think God immediately they were
just but of course I knew at end

307
00:21:21,839 --> 00:21:26,119
it showed a picture of my dad
there. Yeah, okay, And this

308
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:30,440
is just a reminder for our listeners. This is before cell phones, So

309
00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:34,319
this is definitely before cell phones.
Yeah, it must have been difficult to

310
00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:40,839
even get updates in terms of what
was going on in the three day search

311
00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:45,799
because they're out there looking in the
Ragged Island area, which is very spread

312
00:21:45,799 --> 00:21:49,400
out and swampy with paths and that
sort of thing, and then looking along

313
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:53,680
the water's edge. It must have
been difficult for you to try to just

314
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,839
follow along with whatever was going on. It was, it was, it

315
00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:03,000
was. It was difficult just sit
home and try to wait to hear something.

316
00:22:03,759 --> 00:22:06,880
So I would go out there for
a while, and then I'd come

317
00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:10,680
back home, and then I'd go
out there again. It was just it

318
00:22:10,799 --> 00:22:15,079
was horrible. So with Ragged Island
a place that David frequented, or was

319
00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:19,079
it a place that he would not
have had any occasion to be at,

320
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:23,160
I really don't know. I didn't
even know about the place, and I

321
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:27,400
can't imagine him knowing about the place. I don't think it was a place

322
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:33,160
he frequented but maybe I really don't
know. Talking to Robin's family, they

323
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:37,799
said they had no familiarity with the
place either. It was on the far

324
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:41,359
side I know of the river,
and not a place that they recall ever

325
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:45,480
going, and they didn't think that
Robin had ever been there either. I

326
00:22:45,559 --> 00:22:48,440
know. It's weird. As far
as I could figure, I don't know.

327
00:22:48,799 --> 00:22:52,680
I don't know why she wanted him
to pick her up later. I

328
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:57,000
don't know why they were meeting.
That was just strange, although I will

329
00:22:57,039 --> 00:23:03,559
admit I did find a road in
his ashtray, so they had been smoking

330
00:23:03,599 --> 00:23:07,119
marijuana, I think, but of
course I took it before the cops got

331
00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:11,519
there. Did you ever discuss it
with the police? I don't think so.

332
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:14,559
I don't know that they ever asked
or, like I said, I

333
00:23:14,559 --> 00:23:18,440
don't remember talking to them. I
think they pretty much talked to Carl.

334
00:23:18,559 --> 00:23:21,839
I don't think I talked to him. And have you and Carl ever talked

335
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:26,559
much about this in the years since? No, No, Carl just took

336
00:23:26,599 --> 00:23:30,240
over be in our family all of
a sudden, even though he wasn't even

337
00:23:30,319 --> 00:23:36,079
in David's family before then, which
after we separated, he decided not to

338
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,799
visit anymore. He was out of
it. I just I called him in

339
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:44,000
when David was missing. That's the
only time up until then. I think

340
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:48,119
he went to Christmas parties at his
dad's house, and that might have been

341
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:52,599
it. It does sound like Carl
was trying to help in some way in

342
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:56,119
his own way. Yes, yes
he was. He was in searching,

343
00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:00,759
and I know that Carl tells a
story about pushing asked some of the investigators

344
00:24:00,759 --> 00:24:04,519
who didn't want to allow him to
search the water's edge. Yeah, I'm

345
00:24:04,519 --> 00:24:11,720
sure he would do that. That
sounds consistent with his personality what little I

346
00:24:11,759 --> 00:24:17,440
know of. Yes, he has
a persistent personality, A man of strong

347
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:23,000
opinions. I think is probably fair. Would you agree? I will.

348
00:24:25,039 --> 00:24:27,640
But it was this whole saying was
really difficult. There was a lot of

349
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:33,079
publicity and stuff right after this,
and Carl and his new wife taking over,

350
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:37,480
and I just I could handle it. I try to commit suicide.

351
00:24:37,799 --> 00:24:42,400
Oh my god, I'm so sorry. But that was about six months that

352
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:48,359
afterwards. Do you feel like that
was all related to what was going on

353
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:53,519
with losing David? Oh yeah,
definitely, yep. Yes, And I

354
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:57,279
was such a horrible mom at that
time with Michael. He ended up turning

355
00:24:57,279 --> 00:25:04,079
to drugs. I was in the
hospital and then he was on drugs for

356
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:10,000
years. So sorry. Now we've
gotten to know Michael a bit in the

357
00:25:10,079 --> 00:25:12,799
last couple of years, and he
actually is an amazing young man. He

358
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:18,559
really is, isn't that something between
I've finally got my stuff together though,

359
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,640
And then when he was on drugs, I realized that I've got him to

360
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:26,519
deal with now. So it was
me and him against the world, and

361
00:25:26,759 --> 00:25:30,519
together with drug Court that really saved
his life. Then he came through it

362
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:37,279
on the other side and he could
not be more perfect, and he really

363
00:25:37,319 --> 00:25:41,440
could not be. He appreciates everything
he's got. He met his current wife

364
00:25:41,559 --> 00:25:45,640
right after he got off the drugs
and all that, and she saved Yeah,

365
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,359
yeah, she actually saved him and
he didn't go back to drugs then.

366
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,799
But I don't think he ever would
have been on them if it wasn't

367
00:25:52,799 --> 00:25:57,680
for David's murder. He was always
a good student to behave. Now he's

368
00:25:57,759 --> 00:26:03,440
got two step daughters he considers his
own. Yes, I've never seen such

369
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:07,799
a happy family, and he has
taken over David's role of taking care of

370
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:14,000
everybody, his grandmother, me,
his cousins, anybody, got car trouble,

371
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:18,119
Colin Michael, anybody need a place
to stay? Colin Michael took that

372
00:26:18,279 --> 00:26:22,039
over for David. All of us
who've gotten to know him in the last

373
00:26:22,039 --> 00:26:26,440
few years, and of course he's
a grown man now, were incredibly impressed

374
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:30,720
with him. And I remember being
there with the television cruise twice when we

375
00:26:30,759 --> 00:26:37,160
shot interviews with Michael and he impressed
everyone. And he and Tonda were absolutely

376
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:42,079
lovely and so kind and gracious,
and he's a very thoughtful guy, he

377
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:48,839
really is. You're listening to Mind
Over Murder. We'll be right back after

378
00:26:48,880 --> 00:27:14,599
this word from our sponsors. We're
back here at mindover Murder. Oh my

379
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,079
gosh, did he tell you the
story about going out on a park to

380
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:22,759
a party one night and seeing David's
picture up in someone's house? No,

381
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,799
what do you know? What do
you know about this? Yes, So

382
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:30,400
he went to a party one night
and they stopped by this somebody's a friend

383
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,160
of a friend, and there we
are and he saw his brother's picture up

384
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:34,799
there, and he asked, why
do you have this? And he says

385
00:27:34,839 --> 00:27:38,039
it's my brother. And he says, no, that's my brother. What

386
00:27:38,079 --> 00:27:42,680
are you talking about? And it
turns out that was his David's stepbrother.

387
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:51,559
David had gone and unbeknownst to me
or Michael, looked up his biological father

388
00:27:52,039 --> 00:27:55,720
and had developed a relationship with them. He used to visit them all the

389
00:27:55,759 --> 00:27:57,519
time. Oh my god, I
didn't know that. I didn't even know

390
00:27:57,599 --> 00:28:03,720
that until after he passed. Oh
how interesting. And so, like I

391
00:28:03,759 --> 00:28:07,319
said, he was a people person. He liked to have friends, he

392
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,720
wanted to be around people. And
I guess he missed having a dad.

393
00:28:10,759 --> 00:28:14,759
Maybe that got him interested in it. I don't know. Did he have

394
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:19,480
contact with his biological father, Yes, he did, and then met his

395
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:26,759
brother as well, his stepbrothers.
Yeah. Interesting. Wow, Now we'd

396
00:28:26,799 --> 00:28:32,279
never heard that. And so David, excuse me, Michael's at this party

397
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:37,839
and he realizes that he's actually related
to this young guy as well, is

398
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,559
he not. No, he wouldn't
be because Michael, because Michael is Carl's

399
00:28:41,559 --> 00:28:47,599
son. But David was Justin's son, got it. Okay, So no

400
00:28:48,039 --> 00:28:52,680
direct blood relationship, but a family
relationship. Right. One of the things

401
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:57,960
we're curious about, Judy, is
do you recall when the Virginia State Police

402
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:04,319
became an involved in the case nos
a long time after David died. Do

403
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,960
you think we're just asking you a
guest, but remember, your educated guest

404
00:29:08,039 --> 00:29:14,240
is better than anybody else's. Are
we talking about months or perhaps years after

405
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:18,720
David died that the Virginia State Police
got involved. I would think it would

406
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,720
be closer to years. And do
you know we've been told But I'm curious

407
00:29:22,759 --> 00:29:26,759
if anyone ever told you, as
a family member, as a mother,

408
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:33,559
why the Virginia State Police were getting
involved at that point. No, actually,

409
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:37,480
other than was it of a state
park or something? I think that

410
00:29:37,599 --> 00:29:41,559
was what we were told. That
answer has come up recently, which was

411
00:29:41,079 --> 00:29:45,960
new to Kristen and me. What
we've been told for years And I'm not

412
00:29:47,279 --> 00:29:51,319
saying this is one hundred percent accurate, but we've been told that Isle of

413
00:29:51,359 --> 00:29:55,839
Wight was a very small sheriff's department, bigger now than thirty years ago,

414
00:29:56,519 --> 00:30:00,759
but they didn't have the resources,
supposedly to investigate a case. I think

415
00:30:00,799 --> 00:30:04,400
maybe that is another Yeah, I
think that maybe that is another reason why.

416
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,960
But also because it was a state
part that's just I don't know,

417
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:14,839
weird. And did investigators reach out
to you at any point with updates or

418
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,440
questions? Once or twice? I
know I have a phone number, and

419
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:22,720
I called a couple of months ago
to the state police and they're very nice.

420
00:30:22,759 --> 00:30:26,960
They just you know, yeah,
we're doing we're still following leads and

421
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:30,319
we're doing this DNA whatever, and
we'll get back to you. And then

422
00:30:30,359 --> 00:30:34,799
I don't hear back. Did they
say specifically what they were doing with DNA?

423
00:30:36,319 --> 00:30:38,240
They did, but I don't remember, okay, And would this have

424
00:30:38,319 --> 00:30:44,720
been what I was told a while
back is they have a very small part

425
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,559
a DNA sample and they really can't
do much with it. Okay, That's

426
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:52,720
what I've been until they find something
to try to match it with. Get

427
00:30:52,759 --> 00:30:57,599
stuck. But they did say that
they are still actively investigating the case,

428
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:03,559
like they said that they're working on
Yes, yes they did. Do you

429
00:31:03,599 --> 00:31:08,640
recall if this was investigator Dustin Weymouth, German or a different investigator. No,

430
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:12,680
that was him, and that was
just months ago. And did he

431
00:31:12,759 --> 00:31:17,839
initiate the caller? Did you do
you remember? No? I did?

432
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:21,039
I did. If you call,
will they return your call? Probably are

433
00:31:21,079 --> 00:31:23,480
usually texting, but yes, So
when you text him, how does he

434
00:31:23,559 --> 00:31:29,559
reply? Then he replies by text? If there were new scientific opportunities which

435
00:31:29,599 --> 00:31:37,160
we're aware of to test this DNA
using much more advanced search technology. Is

436
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:41,160
that something that you would be interested
in and would support. Oh, yes,

437
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:42,799
definitely. As a matter of fact, I think that's what he said

438
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:47,160
at the time, that there's something
new that they were going to try.

439
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:53,960
We're pushing the FBI on Kathy Thomas
and Rebeccadowski's case to use more advanced forensics.

440
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:57,920
And I am aware of the fact
that there is a small sample available

441
00:31:59,039 --> 00:32:02,119
from David and Robins case, which
is as I understand it, it's not

442
00:32:02,279 --> 00:32:07,799
in great shape. It's thirty plus
years old, and they were exposed to

443
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,440
water and perhaps seawater. And I
believe, and I'm trying to be fair

444
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:15,599
to law enforcement here, I believe
they've conducted tests over the years, but

445
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:22,119
some of those tests consumed the DNA
so that there's not very much left.

446
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:28,799
One of our questions is we think
they should be using this new what they

447
00:32:28,799 --> 00:32:36,160
call full genome sequencing DNA testing,
which uses dramatically less of the sample and

448
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,400
it's much more precise than ever before. And all these developments are in the

449
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:45,279
last five years, so this obviously
wasn't I really think that's what he mentioned.

450
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:47,440
That's good news. Then, yeah, I really think that's what he

451
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:52,799
mentioned. Let me ask a question, though. Let's say that we knew

452
00:32:52,799 --> 00:32:55,519
we only had a very small amount
of DNA left, we knew we only

453
00:32:55,559 --> 00:33:00,119
had one shot if left with the
DNA that we have had, would you

454
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:07,559
be okay if we took a final
shot with whatever DNA was left, using

455
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:12,000
the most advanced testing available. But
it might mean that we have nothing left

456
00:33:12,039 --> 00:33:15,359
at the end of the process.
I'm just asking you a theoretical here.

457
00:33:15,519 --> 00:33:19,000
Would you support that? I think
we ought to use the best that we've

458
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,759
got, Yes, even if we
have to use it a hall because heck,

459
00:33:22,839 --> 00:33:28,119
it's it's going to be thirty four
years coming up. So what difference

460
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:35,160
does it make at this point?
What's been your overall view of the way

461
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:39,759
the case has been handled by Isle
of Weight in Virginia State Police. Naturally,

462
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:45,160
I feel like they dropped the bucket
on the very initial in stages.

463
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:50,160
They wouldn't even consider that I knew
what I was talking about, that he

464
00:33:50,319 --> 00:33:53,720
was missing and there was no reason
for it. I don't know, especially

465
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:59,119
what else they could have done well, especially given your close relationship and the

466
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,799
fact that there were so many things
that were wrong about that. The way

467
00:34:02,839 --> 00:34:08,039
the truck was found, and the
circumstances that were just so not what David

468
00:34:08,119 --> 00:34:12,320
was all about as we understand it, I know, And they just would

469
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,800
not listen to us until a body
pretty much was found. They weren't interested.

470
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:20,199
I know that. Michael was very
insistent. He just said, there

471
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:24,159
is no way my brother would have
left the truck the keys in it.

472
00:34:24,639 --> 00:34:28,800
And he said it just and we
he said, we'd worked on that truck

473
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,320
in the garage and the driver at
the house, and he said we'd hardwired

474
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:36,280
the radio so we could play the
tunes when we were doing stuff at the

475
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,079
beach and that sort of thing.
And he said, you didn't need to

476
00:34:38,119 --> 00:34:43,320
have the key in the accessory position
to play the stereo. And he said

477
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,679
that's right, because the police kept
telling us maybe he had this sere on

478
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:50,199
and David Michael was explaining to him
that he didn't need to do that,

479
00:34:50,519 --> 00:34:52,880
and this was all something that the
two brothers shared. And it's funny.

480
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:57,039
We know Michael, he's a total
car guy to this day, Oh my

481
00:34:57,079 --> 00:35:02,440
god, yes, total. But
he remembered all of those details about the

482
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:06,639
Ford Ranger truck and the things they'd
done to fix it up, and he

483
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:12,079
said, there's no way, and
he ticked off the nose out position.

484
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:17,239
There's no need to leave the car
in the accessory position to play tunes,

485
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:21,400
and he said, and there's no
way in the world. He said that

486
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:25,039
his brother would ever leave that truck
unless he was forced to. He said

487
00:35:25,079 --> 00:35:30,880
he'd close and lock the truck at
McDonald's. When they went inside to get

488
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:37,079
a hamburger, it really looked like
the truck had been set up the way

489
00:35:37,199 --> 00:35:42,000
everything was positioned in it, the
shoes and it underwear on the gear shift,

490
00:35:42,679 --> 00:35:46,239
is wailap up on the dashboard,
that these are not the way things

491
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:51,880
would have been less personally, I
think they had gotten out of the truck

492
00:35:52,119 --> 00:35:55,360
and walked down to the beach area. At one point there was a towel

493
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:59,280
there that looked like it would have
been like it was one of mine,

494
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,880
But I really could be sure,
so I didn't say anything. But it's

495
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:07,000
like they were down at the beach
when this happened, and that would have

496
00:36:07,039 --> 00:36:10,000
been this straight one hundred or two
hundred yards paralleling the bridge that would have

497
00:36:10,039 --> 00:36:15,199
taken you right down to that sandy
area. Right. What do you think

498
00:36:15,199 --> 00:36:19,000
of this question that's come up about
whether or not, they would have gone

499
00:36:19,119 --> 00:36:23,679
straight towards the water, paralleling the
James River Bridge. As opposed to this

500
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:30,079
idea that they might have been forced
to walk through the paths in the marsh

501
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:34,920
to a place further along. Does
any of that long walk through the I

502
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,920
don't know. There's no way they
could have walked through that long walk to

503
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:42,840
where the bodies were found. They
couldn't have done that. I guess if

504
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,679
somebody has a gun to you,
you probably could, but this was all

505
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:51,400
marsh back then. This was they
would but it was not a place where

506
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,199
you would be. I think it
was somebody on a boat. I think

507
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:57,960
somebody was doing a drug dealer or
something on a boat and they were there

508
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:01,840
and they stumbled across them something and
then I don't know if they shot them

509
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:06,079
first, or they made them get
in the boat and go up to where

510
00:37:06,119 --> 00:37:08,400
that other little island is, made
them get often and that's where it all

511
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:13,920
happen. So that puts them in
a wrong place, wrong time kind of

512
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:17,159
scenario. Yeah, I really think
that's what happened. So when we talked

513
00:37:17,159 --> 00:37:22,639
to Jennette in our last episode,
she said that she does not think that

514
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:28,559
this case is necessarily related to the
others in the Colonial Parkway Murders series.

515
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:30,480
Do you feel the same way.
I don't think I do feel the same

516
00:37:30,519 --> 00:37:35,199
way. I don't think it's related
either. And the state police are kind

517
00:37:35,199 --> 00:37:37,400
of fifty to fifty on it too. They really some of them don't feel

518
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,880
that way at all. So the
way they see it and the way you

519
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:45,559
see it, this is an independent
event, this idea of the Colonial Parkway

520
00:37:45,639 --> 00:37:50,519
murders, And I'm putting air quotes
around that may not apply here at all.

521
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:54,360
It may not know ultimately. What
do you want to see happen with

522
00:37:54,440 --> 00:38:00,840
the case moving forward? You mentioned
earlier it will be thirty four years in

523
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:06,000
September. What would you like to
see happen to bring some answers and justice

524
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,679
for Robin and David. I would
like to see the killer caught, but

525
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:14,119
I don't see that. I really
don't see that unless somebody has already arrested

526
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,519
on death row and decides to admit
to it, or maybe they die and

527
00:38:17,519 --> 00:38:22,280
they had told someone else that they
did it. Other than that, I

528
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,760
don't think it's going to be solved. And considering how much it's destroyed me

529
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:30,519
and my family, it's just hard
to believe somebody would deliberately do that.

530
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:36,159
Yeah, for us as well.
Is that something that, in any way,

531
00:38:36,199 --> 00:38:39,920
shape or form you can make peace
with I don't know. I don't

532
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:44,360
think you can make peace. I
think you just survived stuff. I don't

533
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:46,920
think you get over it. I
don't think you make peace with it.

534
00:38:47,039 --> 00:38:51,679
You just survive it. And that's
just what I've been doing. We're glad

535
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:54,280
of it. Judy. I can't
thank you enough for taking the time to

536
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:58,599
talk to us today. You're welcome, Bill, and I appreciate all you

537
00:38:58,639 --> 00:39:04,639
too. Sure hope we find justice
one day. We're working on it.

538
00:39:05,119 --> 00:39:08,199
Yeah, Kristin, it was nice
talking to you. I was wonderful talking

539
00:39:08,199 --> 00:39:10,559
to you too. I hope we
get to meet in person at some point

540
00:39:10,599 --> 00:39:15,360
now that I think you seem to
have calmed down around here. Thank you

541
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:19,079
so much for joining us on mind
Over Murder. We'll see you next time.

542
00:39:28,079 --> 00:39:32,119
Mind Over Murder is a production of
Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions.

543
00:39:32,679 --> 00:39:37,639
Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and
Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by

544
00:39:37,679 --> 00:39:44,119
Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is
by Kevin McLoud. Mind Over Murder is

545
00:39:44,159 --> 00:39:49,320
distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook,

546
00:39:49,519 --> 00:39:52,639
Twitter, or Instagram. You can
also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway

547
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:58,360
murders on Facebook, and finally,
you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at

548
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:02,400
Bill Thomas. Five six. Thank
you for listening to Mind Over Murder