WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.440 --> 00:00:05.400 Hudson River Radio dot com. It beats listening to nothing. Oh my god, 2 00:00:07.799 --> 00:00:14.119 being Frank. We're the only way to be, is Frank. Oh 3 00:00:14.199 --> 00:00:17.839 and welcome to Being Frank. We're the only way to be, is Frank. 4 00:00:18.199 --> 00:00:20.760 I'm your host, Frank Lebono, and we'd like to thank you for 5 00:00:20.839 --> 00:00:26.519 joining us here on the Intelligent Conversation podcast. We know your time is valuable. 6 00:00:26.679 --> 00:00:30.640 Competition is so fierce, so many podcasts out there, but we like 7 00:00:30.679 --> 00:00:35.119 to think of ourselves as an alternative to all that noise. We appreciate you 8 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:38.759 sharing some of your day with Being Frank. You know we stream from Hudson 9 00:00:38.840 --> 00:00:43.200 River Radio dot com and beautiful and historic Stony Point, New York. And 10 00:00:43.280 --> 00:00:48.880 the Mailman because he always delivers. 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Of course, 29 00:02:01.239 --> 00:02:04.840 we go live to tape, so we give you the dates so you have 30 00:02:04.879 --> 00:02:07.719 some relevance as to when you're listening to this program. And this evening is 31 00:02:07.879 --> 00:02:13.960 July twentieth, as the date of our taping, fran Drescher, presidents of 32 00:02:14.039 --> 00:02:19.400 the Striking Sag Union, said human beings and all different walks of life are 33 00:02:19.439 --> 00:02:24.680 being replaced by robots. Actually, people have been concerned about robots for hundreds 34 00:02:24.680 --> 00:02:30.280 of years and have expressed that fear and science fiction robots through the ages. 35 00:02:30.319 --> 00:02:36.319 A new anthology, to be published very soon July twenty fifth, presents stories 36 00:02:36.319 --> 00:02:42.479 starting with Ambrose Beers Moxon's Master in eighteen ninety nine, two stories written in 37 00:02:42.520 --> 00:02:49.360 the past few years that look at robots as deadly rivals and essential friends. 38 00:02:49.400 --> 00:02:54.520 Paul Levinson, the media theorists, science fiction writer, co worker, my 39 00:02:54.639 --> 00:03:00.199 colleague and professor at Fordham, and frequent guest on Being Frank, contribut did 40 00:03:00.240 --> 00:03:05.560 one of those stories, Robinson Calculator. He joins us here tonight for this 41 00:03:05.639 --> 00:03:12.479 crucial discussion about robots and in our continuing efforts towards full transparency. I have 42 00:03:12.560 --> 00:03:16.719 to say that he actually wrote that intro, because I could have done better 43 00:03:16.879 --> 00:03:21.280 myself. Paul, Doctor, Paul Levits, and Paul, thank you once 44 00:03:21.319 --> 00:03:24.680 again for joining us here. On Being Frank, Well, it's my pleasure 45 00:03:24.960 --> 00:03:30.360 as always Frank, and obviously I mean people who know me won't be surprised 46 00:03:30.560 --> 00:03:37.280 that I wrote that, because why else would have such a great compliment that 47 00:03:37.319 --> 00:03:40.439 mentions my story. You certainly are, You certainly earned your way, and 48 00:03:40.479 --> 00:03:45.199 we're going to talk about the story in just a little bit. But since 49 00:03:45.240 --> 00:03:49.439 you started with Fran Drescher and the striking SAG union, which is very much 50 00:03:49.439 --> 00:03:53.840 in the news, the first time both the actors and writers on strike together, 51 00:03:53.919 --> 00:04:00.319 first time in sixty years, and it's affecting an enormous multi billion dollarstry 52 00:04:00.919 --> 00:04:05.280 and also millions of workers, So it's an important thing. And the statement 53 00:04:05.840 --> 00:04:12.039 human beings and all different walks of life are being replaced by robots. Is 54 00:04:12.039 --> 00:04:15.439 she accurate? Is that true? No, it's not true at all. 55 00:04:15.520 --> 00:04:19.879 And also let me person I support the unions and the strikes completely. I 56 00:04:19.920 --> 00:04:26.160 think they deserve a lot more money. I agree with Fran Dreschler and other 57 00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:33.079 people who've noted that the executives in the various studios make millions and millions of 58 00:04:33.199 --> 00:04:39.079 dollars, and they have homes that are so splendid. If you stuck your 59 00:04:39.120 --> 00:04:43.680 nose in there, you know, it would probably would be like walking into 60 00:04:43.680 --> 00:04:47.639 some magical kingdom. You'd probably think you were flipping into another dimension. So 61 00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:56.040 I think that the strike and the unions and the actors and the writers should 62 00:04:56.079 --> 00:05:00.439 be supported by the public. These studios, these productions, companies have to 63 00:05:00.480 --> 00:05:08.839 give them more money, more security, more benefits. But fran Drexler is 64 00:05:09.480 --> 00:05:13.920 wrong in so many ways with that statement. First and foremost, she is 65 00:05:14.040 --> 00:05:21.959 confusing or conflating robots with AI. The fact of the matter is robots are 66 00:05:23.120 --> 00:05:30.879 not replacing human beings in so many areas. I mean, in what ways 67 00:05:30.920 --> 00:05:33.920 are robots now replacing human beings? I guess there are. There's like a 68 00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:40.720 vacuum cleaner that rolls around, that's all. I think it's called something along 69 00:05:40.759 --> 00:05:44.600 those minds advertising, but I think they call it that a thing. Yeah, 70 00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:48.399 I think you're right, And actually, at least over ten years ago, 71 00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:53.839 probably even more the there's a Japanese company it may still be selling it. 72 00:05:53.879 --> 00:05:59.399 They developed a robot called Asimo, where you're named after Isaac Asimo. 73 00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:06.800 But what is a robot that does vacuuming replacing? It's not replacing a human 74 00:06:06.839 --> 00:06:12.360 being. Basically, it's making life easier for a human being. That human 75 00:06:12.399 --> 00:06:15.439 being is still there and can do other things. But I think what the 76 00:06:15.560 --> 00:06:23.480 actors are understandably concerned about is the use of AI to write scripts. What 77 00:06:23.519 --> 00:06:30.759 they're understandably concerned about is the use of AI to replace human actors, and 78 00:06:30.920 --> 00:06:35.439 instead of a human actor portraying a role, you basically have an AI program 79 00:06:35.480 --> 00:06:42.519 put together a compilation of what the actor or actress did in the past, 80 00:06:42.600 --> 00:06:46.399 and they have them say new words in a new film. So those are 81 00:06:46.439 --> 00:06:55.600 justifiable concerns. But the truth of the matter is not only are human beings 82 00:06:55.720 --> 00:07:01.079 not being replaced by robots. Even the great cern and we've discussed this previously 83 00:07:01.560 --> 00:07:10.839 about AI replacing us, I think is a lot overblown. I just saw 84 00:07:10.879 --> 00:07:20.560 a great interview Ari Melba interviewing Nolan, the brand director, and about his 85 00:07:20.639 --> 00:07:28.360 movie about Oppenheimer, who basically, you know, he wasn't the only one, 86 00:07:28.399 --> 00:07:30.800 but he led a tear head of the effort to create the atomic bomb, 87 00:07:31.040 --> 00:07:36.000 that's right, So you know that's something that they were concerned even back 88 00:07:36.040 --> 00:07:40.920 then in the nineteen forties, the very people who were developing it, they 89 00:07:40.920 --> 00:07:45.680 were concerned that if they set off an atomic reaction like this, it might 90 00:07:45.720 --> 00:07:48.639 not stop, it might have blown up the world. Were lucky that didn't 91 00:07:48.639 --> 00:07:55.560 happen. So that is the kind of technology, the kind of scientific advance 92 00:07:55.959 --> 00:08:01.279 that we need to be concerned about. It's a fearsome weapon of destruction, 93 00:08:01.920 --> 00:08:07.040 even if it's used to end the war that we didn't begin World War two. 94 00:08:07.079 --> 00:08:11.879 I think there's a serious ethical issue as to whether it should have been 95 00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:16.199 invented. I don't know what I would have done back then. Today in 96 00:08:16.240 --> 00:08:20.680 twenty twenty three, we have to be concerned that Putin doesn't lose his mind 97 00:08:20.720 --> 00:08:24.399 even more and unleas some kind of nuclear weapons. So there's a human element 98 00:08:24.519 --> 00:08:30.879 that is a huge factor in AI. Also you know the actual use of 99 00:08:30.879 --> 00:08:33.080 it. But well, if I might like to pressure a little bit too 100 00:08:33.120 --> 00:08:37.279 about the job replacement, because I saw a very interesting report and it was 101 00:08:37.360 --> 00:08:41.039 kind of a peppy, happy thing, but it was about a place now 102 00:08:41.080 --> 00:08:48.240 that's using robotics to make pizzas. Okay, and it sounds gimmicky, but 103 00:08:48.480 --> 00:08:50.919 but you can see where this is all going. They're already using and it's 104 00:08:50.960 --> 00:08:56.720 fun. There are certain I believe in Japan that they're actively using serving robots 105 00:08:58.080 --> 00:09:03.159 so replace as a server. We see automatic checkouts which replace people who used 106 00:09:03.159 --> 00:09:09.519 to run cash registers, etc. Now this pizza maker and for years I 107 00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:11.639 know for years, as you said, this is not new technology, the 108 00:09:11.720 --> 00:09:18.200 auto industry has used robotics to assembly line and that are replaced assembly workers. 109 00:09:18.600 --> 00:09:22.639 So this does seem to be a march towards at least some of the more 110 00:09:22.679 --> 00:09:28.240 menial work, if you will. But but it's all honest work. If 111 00:09:28.279 --> 00:09:31.480 you see what I'm driving at and it's if that goes somewhere, then what 112 00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:37.919 do we do with people who once held those jobs? So there is some 113 00:09:37.039 --> 00:09:41.360 substance to that worth worrying about. Your comments. Well, that's a fair 114 00:09:41.440 --> 00:09:48.919 point, but I think you said an essential word there, replacing menial jobs 115 00:09:48.960 --> 00:09:54.000 that human beings do. So here's something that happened years ago. Again, 116 00:09:54.000 --> 00:09:58.559 it wasn't a robot, it was I guess a form of AI, and 117 00:09:58.600 --> 00:10:01.360 we see it all over the place today. There are very few, if 118 00:10:01.399 --> 00:10:09.440 any toll collectors left doing their jobs because instead the car is driving and you 119 00:10:09.480 --> 00:10:13.320 know the little thing of a jig that you put in your window stand right, 120 00:10:13.360 --> 00:10:18.480 and that's how you pay your toll. So what kind of a job 121 00:10:18.639 --> 00:10:24.879 is it to sit there and breathing carbon monoxide eight or more hours a day. 122 00:10:26.120 --> 00:10:28.480 And I think it's great that those human beings who did that kind of 123 00:10:28.600 --> 00:10:35.720 job have been freed to seek other work. And you know, you could 124 00:10:35.759 --> 00:10:41.759 even say, and obviously depends on what the job is, but I don't 125 00:10:41.799 --> 00:10:48.159 know. If you are working all day in a pizza place and it's the 126 00:10:48.279 --> 00:10:54.720 kind of heat that we've tragically been experiencing this summer, yeah, you better 127 00:10:54.799 --> 00:10:58.679 hope the air conditioning is working one hundred percent. So I think that of 128 00:10:58.720 --> 00:11:05.039 course, like all new technologies, these are not being used perfectly. There 129 00:11:05.120 --> 00:11:09.799 are things that maybe they shouldn't be applied to be doing. But by and 130 00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:18.840 large, if the focus is on allowing human beings to do more satisfying, 131 00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:24.919 less dangerous jobs than so much the better. Look, there are robots that 132 00:11:24.960 --> 00:11:30.720 dive deep down into the sea to see certain things. It's good that human 133 00:11:30.759 --> 00:11:33.320 beings are not doing that because if something goes wrong, it's not a human 134 00:11:33.360 --> 00:11:37.559 life that's lost, as what happened, of course, just a couple of 135 00:11:37.559 --> 00:11:41.679 weeks ago. By the way, one point, and as both a science 136 00:11:41.720 --> 00:11:46.159 fiction writer and as someone who thinks about the future of technology, one area 137 00:11:46.200 --> 00:11:52.000 in which I'm not that happy about robots is sending robots out into space, 138 00:11:52.720 --> 00:11:58.519 because if you send a robot to Mars, yes, the robot can basically 139 00:11:58.639 --> 00:12:01.320 look at things. The robot can, you know, pick up materials and 140 00:12:01.720 --> 00:12:07.559 you know, do maybe some experiments with the materials, you know, drop 141 00:12:07.559 --> 00:12:11.320 it into, you know, a certain kind of acid to see how the 142 00:12:11.720 --> 00:12:20.360 material reacts. But a robot cannot appreciate the beauty the majesty of being out 143 00:12:20.399 --> 00:12:28.799 there in space. And I think nothing can and ever should replace human astronauts 144 00:12:28.840 --> 00:12:33.399 who when they're out there, they can experience things that no robot can possibly 145 00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:41.120 experience. The robot might be able to transmit images effectively, but as we 146 00:12:41.279 --> 00:12:43.759 get out into the cosmos, I think we need human beings to do that. 147 00:12:43.919 --> 00:12:50.120 So I certainly don't think human beings should be replaced in every job, 148 00:12:50.200 --> 00:12:54.360 and in fact that most jobs they shouldn't. And again there will be errors 149 00:12:54.440 --> 00:13:01.279 made, you know, as far as robots replacing way waters and waitresses. 150 00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:05.840 I wouldn't particularly like to be served by a robot. Yeah, I liked 151 00:13:05.879 --> 00:13:09.720 the personal interaction that you have with another human being. I mean that's some 152 00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:13.240 of the things that gets lost in here generally. I kind of like people 153 00:13:15.720 --> 00:13:20.120 speaking, and I like the interaction of going always friendly with waiters and waitresses 154 00:13:20.120 --> 00:13:24.600 and hopefully they are in return. That's part of the human interaction, you 155 00:13:24.639 --> 00:13:28.519 know. But that's I think it's a really good segue. You know, 156 00:13:28.600 --> 00:13:33.600 we talk about robots, we talk about a AI and androids. Sort it 157 00:13:33.600 --> 00:13:37.759 all out for us? What is the what's the difference between a robot and 158 00:13:37.759 --> 00:13:43.879 android? A human clone if you will? So what are there are so 159 00:13:43.879 --> 00:13:46.600 many terms being thrown out? Set a straight Well, first of all, 160 00:13:46.639 --> 00:13:54.320 the difference between a robot and android is like a central and very very important 161 00:13:54.360 --> 00:14:00.960 difference, and it's a very straightforward difference. The robot is the tin man, 162 00:14:01.320 --> 00:14:03.240 even worse than the tin man, because the tin man had something of 163 00:14:03.320 --> 00:14:07.879 like a human face and the rest of his body was ten. But a 164 00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:15.240 robot classically and currently it has the general shape of a human being. But 165 00:14:15.399 --> 00:14:18.840 no one in a million years would mistake it for a human being, would 166 00:14:18.879 --> 00:14:20.960 you say, Like, well, I mentioned I mean to cut you off, 167 00:14:20.960 --> 00:14:26.600 but just for clarity here, the robots that would do spot welding, 168 00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:31.159 for example, on things, they have arm like things that reach out and 169 00:14:31.679 --> 00:14:35.039 spot weld here and there, but you certainly couldn't. It's almost human like 170 00:14:35.200 --> 00:14:41.039 the movement, but you certainly couldn't mistake them for for human that's right. 171 00:14:41.879 --> 00:14:46.480 You mean by that exactly right. They have human form. They have human 172 00:14:46.639 --> 00:14:52.480 like limbs in the shape of human limbs, but they don't have human flesh. 173 00:14:52.519 --> 00:14:56.200 If you look at their faces, they look nothing, you know, 174 00:14:56.279 --> 00:15:00.559 like a human being. No one would ever mistake them for you human being. 175 00:15:01.480 --> 00:15:11.360 Androids in contrast, rather than having brains that are made of protein and 176 00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:18.000 what human being brains and what any organisms brains are made of, androids do 177 00:15:18.279 --> 00:15:26.600 have digital or some kind of non organic brains. But that's on the inside, 178 00:15:28.159 --> 00:15:31.679 on the outside. And this is why I think in many ways they're 179 00:15:31.679 --> 00:15:37.120 more much more interesting and exciting and science fiction. They look like human beings, 180 00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:41.120 and it's a question of how far you want to go. And if 181 00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:46.919 you think, for example, about the character of Data in Star Trek the 182 00:15:46.960 --> 00:15:52.759 next Generation. First of all, Data was played by a human actor, 183 00:15:52.960 --> 00:16:00.480 Brent Spiner, and so he looked human with makeup, but the actor deliberately 184 00:16:00.679 --> 00:16:07.679 talked in a more stilted way to make it clear to viewers that he was 185 00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:11.960 not a human being. He was an android. But there's no reason that 186 00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:19.399 androids have to speak in that more stilted way. And to get to give 187 00:16:19.440 --> 00:16:25.679 a little preview of Robinson Calculator, but I certainly didn't create this in Robinson 188 00:16:25.720 --> 00:16:32.759 Calculator. One of the most I think interesting and exciting things about science fiction 189 00:16:32.799 --> 00:16:38.399 with androids is can a human being in an android fall in love? Or 190 00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:45.879 can a human being and an android have sexual relations? And you know, 191 00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:52.120 you could say that's totally impossible and ridiculous. Isn't it happening? To agree 192 00:16:52.679 --> 00:16:56.320 to a degree, Paul, I just want to jump in here. I 193 00:16:56.320 --> 00:17:00.919 mean, I've seen stories where there are sex spots, if you will, 194 00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:07.960 looking incredibly like life like that some men do use for sexual pleasure. I 195 00:17:07.000 --> 00:17:11.240 think, unless those are false reports, as best as I can tell, 196 00:17:11.799 --> 00:17:15.920 there is some level of that already happening. Yeah, that's true. But 197 00:17:15.160 --> 00:17:21.119 those aren't really androids. Those are basically dolls. Okay, so that's that's 198 00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:25.200 important difference. I'm glad you Why what makes that clear? There? Okay, 199 00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:29.240 that's not quite there what you're talking about yet. Okay, Yes, 200 00:17:29.559 --> 00:17:37.079 those might be dolls that look very human, and they're even built with some 201 00:17:37.160 --> 00:17:41.400 kind of plastic that maybe it feels like flesh. But what they're missing is 202 00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:48.160 the inn Asthimov's world, the positive tronic brain and our world, we might 203 00:17:48.200 --> 00:17:53.720 say, the cybernetic brain that they're missing the intelligence that the androids have, 204 00:17:55.240 --> 00:18:00.960 and and basically, you know, that's the primary distinction in every story in 205 00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:07.359 Robot through the Ages is either one or the other. And we do, 206 00:18:07.599 --> 00:18:15.240 however, have even gone beyond that in terms of if you think also about 207 00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:18.960 science fiction and the history of science fiction, a novel like Frankenstein, Mary 208 00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:23.119 Shelley's story, what was Frankenstein, Well, he was put together by doctor 209 00:18:23.240 --> 00:18:30.039 Frankenstein played by Boris Califf in the movie. Boris Colliff played what doctor Frankenstein 210 00:18:30.079 --> 00:18:36.720 put together basically a bunch of body parts from dead humans, including a brain 211 00:18:36.759 --> 00:18:40.559 of some sort, and then you hooked up with something that connected him so 212 00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:45.079 that when a very powerful lightning strike hit it, he came to life, 213 00:18:45.200 --> 00:18:49.359 was able to stagger around and can barely talk those I think are I mean? 214 00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:55.559 And that was a great piece of science fiction. But that is not 215 00:18:55.720 --> 00:19:00.359 an android either. In other words, if you build something told organically and 216 00:19:00.519 --> 00:19:10.319 somehow you're able to put into that entity an organic brain, maybe a human 217 00:19:10.400 --> 00:19:15.079 brain, and again that's right, but that case right, then then that's 218 00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:19.000 you know, something a little different. The other point though, about both 219 00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:25.240 robots and androids, and in this on this point, they're pretty much the 220 00:19:25.319 --> 00:19:32.200 same what over and over again science fiction deals with and suggests, and in 221 00:19:32.279 --> 00:19:38.039 fact, what fran Dressler is calling up as an important point to consider is 222 00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:44.519 that we develop these entities to do work that we don't want to do, 223 00:19:45.119 --> 00:19:48.839 and we make them more and more intelligent because we want them to work more 224 00:19:48.880 --> 00:19:56.680 and more effectively. And certainly in the early stories like Carol Kpex Are You 225 00:19:56.759 --> 00:19:59.960 Are? Which was a plane in the nineteen twenties, and there's a story 226 00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:06.240 sorry that read visits Are You Are? Sanspor Rossum's Universal Robots in robots through 227 00:20:06.319 --> 00:20:11.759 the ages, Eventually these robots getting more and more intelligent or androids get to 228 00:20:11.759 --> 00:20:15.200 the point where they don't want to be slaves, and that's an important point 229 00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:18.799 also, and therefore they might turn around and want to kill us. I 230 00:20:19.319 --> 00:20:22.440 want to I want to get to that point in a minute. But you 231 00:20:22.519 --> 00:20:26.319 and you mentioned how far these stories go back. What are some of the 232 00:20:26.359 --> 00:20:30.799 oldest stories. I noticed you we mentioned one eighteen ninety nine, so the 233 00:20:30.920 --> 00:20:36.400 very end of the nineteenth century, is that considered the first story that involves 234 00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:40.240 a robot? Or are their earlier ones? Believe it or not Homer, 235 00:20:40.839 --> 00:20:45.119 you know, who wrote the Ilia and the Odyssey. There is a passage 236 00:20:45.160 --> 00:20:53.359 there in which there is talk about these artificial beings that are able to think 237 00:20:53.799 --> 00:20:59.519 and in effect that in our current Paul and so they use the word robot, 238 00:20:59.559 --> 00:21:02.519 then that, by the way, comes from r you are. But 239 00:21:03.079 --> 00:21:07.559 clearly they were describing robots. So that's way, way way back in ancient 240 00:21:07.640 --> 00:21:12.480 Greece, and then you don't have to go that much further in ancient Alexandria. 241 00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:17.559 We're talking about maybe two three hundred. No one is under cent sure 242 00:21:17.640 --> 00:21:22.599 exactly when Heron did all his work, and he invented many things, and 243 00:21:22.759 --> 00:21:29.319 although none of these kind of inventions of his have survived, there are written 244 00:21:29.400 --> 00:21:37.519 descriptions of machines that he built which walked and did and basically had the proportions 245 00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:45.039 of humans and did work. And so that's obviously a robot um. But 246 00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:52.880 robots through the ages. I guess they couldn't get permission from Homer's estate because 247 00:21:52.880 --> 00:22:00.680 he has no estate, so they did start denying with Ambrose Spiers, who 248 00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:03.519 I have to say, you know, just on a personal level, what 249 00:22:03.640 --> 00:22:08.759 a thrill it is for me to be in this anthology because I read that 250 00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:11.640 story has, by the way, two different names in the book. I 251 00:22:11.640 --> 00:22:17.759 think it's a Night at Moxon's. That was the original title of the story 252 00:22:17.799 --> 00:22:21.759 that Ambrose Spiers wrote, but for some reason it got to be known as 253 00:22:22.039 --> 00:22:26.680 Moxon's Master, which is like a more exciting story. And by the way, 254 00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:33.000 that without giving too much away there for people who don't know the story, 255 00:22:33.359 --> 00:22:37.680 there's murder in that story also. So in eighteen ninety nine, the 256 00:22:37.720 --> 00:22:45.799 concern was what would happen if the robot got too intelligent and looked at human 257 00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:51.759 beings as a rival, took unbridgid things got angry. So people like Jules 258 00:22:51.839 --> 00:22:56.240 Verne, we're writing twenty thousand Leagues under the Sea. People like H. 259 00:22:56.400 --> 00:23:02.920 G. Wells, who I think was a more profound thinker than Jules Verne, 260 00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:07.920 we're writing The Time Machine, the Islands of Doctor Moreau. But they 261 00:23:07.920 --> 00:23:15.160 are considered correctly by and Lodge the grandfathers of science fiction. But Ambrose Bierce 262 00:23:15.839 --> 00:23:22.279 is probably the first real titan. He actually wrote a combination of science fiction 263 00:23:22.319 --> 00:23:27.119 and horror, and his story about Marxon was in many ways at the beginning 264 00:23:27.519 --> 00:23:34.319 of writing about robots, and it's stimulated other people like Jack Williamson, who 265 00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:40.000 he has a story in the book, Fritz Lieber, Clifford Simak, and 266 00:23:40.039 --> 00:23:44.720 again just mentioning these names, it's thrilling for me just to mention, because 267 00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:48.319 I was like a twelve year old kid, and I don't know if I 268 00:23:48.319 --> 00:23:52.079 ever told you this story. I'll tell you very quickly. Well, I 269 00:23:52.160 --> 00:23:55.440 mean junior high school. IM in seventh grade. One day I come into 270 00:23:56.279 --> 00:23:59.839 my class in the morning, minding my own business, and the homeroom teaching 271 00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:06.359 this is funk Believed or not was a name. She was Funky. Ide 272 00:24:06.759 --> 00:24:11.519 is from the school librarian, Missus Dayson, and the note says, Paul 273 00:24:11.559 --> 00:24:15.160 would like you to come down in your free period to the library. I 274 00:24:15.160 --> 00:24:17.640 have something I want to talk to you about. So I go down to 275 00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:21.440 the library, sit there, Hi, Missus Dason, Hello Paul, And 276 00:24:21.519 --> 00:24:25.200 she said, you have any idea why I called you down to my office 277 00:24:25.640 --> 00:24:27.759 and said, no, I honestly don't. And then she with like a 278 00:24:27.799 --> 00:24:33.559 really grave expression on her face, she hands me this piece of paper and 279 00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:36.319 I look at the piece of paper and I see it's a list of all 280 00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:41.319 the books that I've taken out of the library. And it's not that I 281 00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:47.200 hadn't returned the books. I quickly realized what she was getting at because all 282 00:24:47.240 --> 00:24:51.039 the books were science fiction. And she says to me, as you can 283 00:24:51.079 --> 00:24:52.880 see all the books you read a science fiction. I said, yeah, 284 00:24:52.920 --> 00:24:56.799 I love science fiction. I mean I was like twelve years old. And 285 00:24:56.920 --> 00:25:03.680 she says, well, and then she offers me this this brilliant being sarcastic, 286 00:25:03.799 --> 00:25:06.559 and you know, metaphor, she said, you know, Paul, 287 00:25:06.599 --> 00:25:11.599 if all you do is eat one thing, you're gonna get physically. If 288 00:25:11.599 --> 00:25:17.599 all you do is you're gonna get mentally. And what happened, Paul, 289 00:25:18.039 --> 00:25:26.480 exactly science fiction and the prophet state came exactly right. But she said, 290 00:25:26.519 --> 00:25:30.039 and then she said to me, I'm not going to let you come back 291 00:25:30.039 --> 00:25:33.319 in the library and take out any more science fiction books. You know, 292 00:25:33.319 --> 00:25:36.920 there are other great books. You know, there's read you know, a 293 00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:41.759 ten or two Cities you know by by by Charles Dickens, read a Hemmingway 294 00:25:41.799 --> 00:25:47.000 book, reading Norman Mail or for God's sakes, But but don't read science 295 00:25:47.039 --> 00:25:49.400 fiction. By the way. Nowadays, things have changed so much. If 296 00:25:49.400 --> 00:25:53.000 there was a kid in the library who was only reading science fiction in the 297 00:25:53.000 --> 00:25:56.920 school library, they be thrilled. They'd be happy the kid read pornography as 298 00:25:56.960 --> 00:26:00.400 long as the kids reading. So but what I do is I never went 299 00:26:00.440 --> 00:26:03.640 back to that library. I went to the local branch of the New York 300 00:26:03.640 --> 00:26:10.559 Public Library, the Allerton Avenue branch, and I read every science fiction book 301 00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:15.240 on the shelf back then. And that's why who was in these books? 302 00:26:15.720 --> 00:26:19.319 You know, many of the people who have stories from the thirties and forties 303 00:26:19.359 --> 00:26:26.880 and fifties and sixties in Robots through the Ages, Well, you mentioned some 304 00:26:26.960 --> 00:26:30.920 of the giants, and of course that would have to include Isaac Asimov. 305 00:26:30.920 --> 00:26:37.640 And you mentioned in a lot of the stories the robots are capable of doing 306 00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:41.759 harm. And according to Asmov, and I need you to explain it more 307 00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:45.960 fully for us and certainly for me, the three laws of robotics, that 308 00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:51.599 a robot can never do harm to a human. What is this premise to 309 00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:56.039 say that why would he know that? Well, you know that he Isaac 310 00:26:56.079 --> 00:27:00.839 Asimov, in my opinion, and I've read men any many stories and novels, 311 00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:07.000 and seen obviously a lot of science fiction on television. Isaac Asimov for 312 00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:11.640 me, has always been the best and in fact I took out it was 313 00:27:11.759 --> 00:27:15.359 his novels. I took out every single Asimov novel I could find in my 314 00:27:15.720 --> 00:27:18.839 junior high school library, and I found more of his work in the Alton 315 00:27:18.920 --> 00:27:23.799 Avenue library. What Asimov did he was a very rational person. He said, 316 00:27:23.799 --> 00:27:27.720 look, if we're going to invent robots, we have to make sure 317 00:27:27.799 --> 00:27:36.319 that the robots are guided in a way that they cannot just nullify or overcome 318 00:27:36.880 --> 00:27:41.000 important principles. And the first principle was, as you said, a robot 319 00:27:41.319 --> 00:27:48.359 shall never harm a human being or by in action, allow a human being 320 00:27:48.359 --> 00:27:52.000 to be harmed. That was his first law. His second law was, 321 00:27:52.559 --> 00:27:56.279 and this is you know, you can see how sharp Asimov was. His 322 00:27:56.400 --> 00:28:03.279 second law was a robot must follow every human order, except if that conflicts 323 00:28:03.319 --> 00:28:07.039 with the first law. So why do we want robots. We want robots 324 00:28:07.119 --> 00:28:11.400 to do our bidding, but not if our bidding is Hey, that guy 325 00:28:11.440 --> 00:28:17.720 is getting on my nerves, mister robot. And then the third law, 326 00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:22.519 because robots were expensive of course money Asthmov saw that too, is that a 327 00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:29.480 robot must always act on behalf of its own survival, unless that conflicts with 328 00:28:29.599 --> 00:28:32.359 the second law. So if a human being says, hey, we do 329 00:28:32.359 --> 00:28:34.400 do me a favorite jump off the roof. I don't want you anymore. 330 00:28:34.559 --> 00:28:38.480 The robot has to do that. And even more importantly, the first law, 331 00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:45.079 you know, if if if a robot is endangering its own existence in 332 00:28:45.200 --> 00:28:49.240 order to set in order to save a human being from harm, it's going 333 00:28:49.400 --> 00:28:55.440 to do that. So so that's the brains a brilliant set of laws. 334 00:28:55.480 --> 00:29:00.359 And years later Asthmov came up with those laws in the nineteen forties and developed 335 00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:03.359 him further than the nineteen fifties. Years later, in the nineteen eighties, 336 00:29:03.759 --> 00:29:10.480 Asimov, who was a he was a professor of biochemistry at Boston University. 337 00:29:10.519 --> 00:29:14.200 He thought, I'm not going to make enough money from science fiction, and 338 00:29:14.960 --> 00:29:22.119 professors don't make that much money, and he realized a total decades to us 339 00:29:22.160 --> 00:29:25.920 in the nineteen eighties, hey, I'm making more money for my science fiction 340 00:29:26.400 --> 00:29:30.880 than being a professor here at Boston University. So he pretty much left Boston 341 00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:36.359 University and concentrated. He still had some association with them, but he concentrated 342 00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:38.759 much more in his writing, and he came up with the zero law, 343 00:29:40.039 --> 00:29:44.599 which is more important than even the first law robots, and the zeroth law 344 00:29:44.839 --> 00:29:49.319 is if a robot has a choice of saving a lot of humans or a 345 00:29:49.400 --> 00:29:55.839 few humans, or more than one human or just one human. The robots 346 00:29:55.839 --> 00:30:00.599 shall always go with saving more humans. And this was real again as a 347 00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:07.480 philosophy, this was an embodiment of John Stuart Mill's fundamental utilitarian principle, the 348 00:30:07.519 --> 00:30:12.000 greatest good for the greatest number. That's what you have to try to do. 349 00:30:12.519 --> 00:30:19.079 Perfect segue to pull because the implication is that there would be a certain 350 00:30:19.160 --> 00:30:23.839 level of self awareness, a certain level within these robots. There would have 351 00:30:23.920 --> 00:30:26.680 to be the function. I would think on that level, you have to 352 00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:30.920 be aware of the situation, the consequences, so a certain level of awareness. 353 00:30:32.720 --> 00:30:37.000 Therefore, is it right to use them in a way that we're almost 354 00:30:37.000 --> 00:30:41.680 in a way of slavery where they're only doing our bidding. They have no 355 00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:45.440 free will? And I guess I know that's a fine line. Are they 356 00:30:45.480 --> 00:30:48.880 truly sentient beings? So there's a lot of room for debate in there, 357 00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:52.960 but let's kick it around a bit. Yeah, well, there is a 358 00:30:52.039 --> 00:30:56.319 lot of room for debate. I was thinking about that in the nineteen nineties 359 00:30:56.359 --> 00:31:02.160 when I wrote an article and people can search for it called the Civil Rights 360 00:31:02.279 --> 00:31:06.480 of Robots, and I raised that very question, and I think, no, 361 00:31:06.559 --> 00:31:12.039 it's a paradox. If we continue to make our robots and androids more 362 00:31:12.079 --> 00:31:15.640 and more intelligent, it's going to get to a point where I think it 363 00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:22.640 is not ethical to order them around. And we have a really bad history 364 00:31:23.079 --> 00:31:27.799 in terms of ordering human beings around, making slaves of human beings. But 365 00:31:27.880 --> 00:31:32.039 even the way we treat our animals, you know, on the one hand, 366 00:31:32.440 --> 00:31:36.319 everywhere, oh, I love my dog, okay, But if that's 367 00:31:36.359 --> 00:31:38.240 the case, why do we order it around? And why do we get 368 00:31:38.279 --> 00:31:44.240 upset when the dog doesn't exactly follow our commands. So we're leaving the house, 369 00:31:44.519 --> 00:31:47.119 the dog wants to come out with us, and you say the dog, 370 00:31:47.160 --> 00:31:49.319 no, no, you know, daddy or whatever your name is for 371 00:31:49.519 --> 00:31:52.880 the dog is going out. You have to stay, stay, stay, 372 00:31:52.160 --> 00:31:55.559 And the dog sort of moans a little bit, you know, the dog 373 00:31:55.599 --> 00:31:59.720 wants to go out to it's a nice beautiful day outside, and we get 374 00:31:59.759 --> 00:32:06.039 a little irritated when the dog doesn't follow our commands. So we human beings 375 00:32:06.119 --> 00:32:10.400 like ordering things around, and we don't have a very good record of respecting 376 00:32:10.880 --> 00:32:15.640 what it is that we do order around. And I think that that is 377 00:32:15.680 --> 00:32:20.160 in itself a very serious problem. But let me make a very very important 378 00:32:20.160 --> 00:32:22.920 point here, and this in a way also gets back to fran Dressler. 379 00:32:22.559 --> 00:32:31.160 The reality right now there is we are so far away from developing a robot 380 00:32:31.240 --> 00:32:38.640 which is anything like Asimov's Robots, anything like Lieutenant commanded data in Star Trek, 381 00:32:38.960 --> 00:32:46.759 anything like Maxen's Master. The fact of the matter is that is in 382 00:32:46.799 --> 00:32:52.440 the realm of science fiction. And you know, the Terminator obviously was another 383 00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:55.319 crack at this, you know, and Arnold Schwarzenegger, I'd be back, 384 00:32:55.759 --> 00:33:02.640 you know, and so, but that is pure science fiction where we're not 385 00:33:02.759 --> 00:33:09.359 even close to it. And you know, as far as developing in some 386 00:33:09.480 --> 00:33:19.039 kind of digital brain, anything like our intelligence, I think is light years 387 00:33:19.519 --> 00:33:22.319 away. Well if we don't, if we don't do something now, will 388 00:33:22.359 --> 00:33:27.400 it get away from us? And they often use the Internet, which which 389 00:33:27.400 --> 00:33:30.160 came and nobody knew much about it, and then all of a sudden got 390 00:33:30.160 --> 00:33:34.480 away from us content that was harmful to children, etc. Because there was 391 00:33:34.480 --> 00:33:37.599 no control, no regulations, because we waited too long. So it is 392 00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:45.960 it hyperbole to to act now with some of these issues. Well, look, 393 00:33:45.039 --> 00:33:51.000 it's always good to be aware of potential problems. But if we're talking 394 00:33:51.039 --> 00:33:54.480 about the Internet. You're asking the wrong person in terms of your question, 395 00:33:54.519 --> 00:34:00.039 because I think by and laws, the internet has been helpful to humanity absolutely, 396 00:34:00.119 --> 00:34:06.319 yeah, And I know you know, obviously nothing you know is undludedly 397 00:34:06.480 --> 00:34:09.519 good or bad. I understand all the problems that the internet has created, 398 00:34:09.800 --> 00:34:15.679 but it has opened up the world to every human being, and it's made 399 00:34:15.719 --> 00:34:21.840 it easy for any human being to express his or her or their thoughts. 400 00:34:22.280 --> 00:34:25.840 And you know, if that person is a psycho or a bad person, 401 00:34:25.920 --> 00:34:30.639 that's not good. But by and laws that's a good development. But yes, 402 00:34:30.239 --> 00:34:35.920 you're right in this important sense. And as someone who study technology, 403 00:34:36.239 --> 00:34:39.480 one of the first things you realize when you look at the history of technology 404 00:34:39.519 --> 00:34:46.199 and the development of technology is that they always have unintended consequences. You can't 405 00:34:46.239 --> 00:34:53.800 predict what the technology is going to do. And even scientists you may know 406 00:34:53.880 --> 00:34:59.880 this because you worked in radio. Hirich Hurtz, who discovered electromagnetic carry waves, 407 00:35:00.280 --> 00:35:02.280 was asked at some point, well can these be used for communication? 408 00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:06.159 And said, no, no, what are you talking about. You have 409 00:35:06.199 --> 00:35:09.079 to have it transmitted the size of Europe, you know, to do that. 410 00:35:09.400 --> 00:35:14.880 And Marconi, I love radio, did a very good thing said, 411 00:35:14.920 --> 00:35:17.159 you know what, I think Hurts is wrong, and then he demonstrated how 412 00:35:17.199 --> 00:35:23.960 you can broadcast electromagnetic carrywaves. So technologies almost seem to have minds of their 413 00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:34.719 own. But the truth of the matter is scientists don't even understand much about 414 00:35:34.760 --> 00:35:44.199 how intelligence arose in the biological world. You probably heard that orangutangs and chimpanzees 415 00:35:44.480 --> 00:35:52.320 and guerrillas have over ninety eight percent identical DNA with human beings. We don't 416 00:35:52.440 --> 00:35:59.639 know anything really about how that one point something percent led to Isaac Asimov, 417 00:36:00.239 --> 00:36:06.719 to Mozart to being Frank the only way to be intelligent radio. We have 418 00:36:06.840 --> 00:36:10.840 no idea how that a little more than one percent difference in DNA led to 419 00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:16.000 that, and so then noose and that we are on the verge of developing 420 00:36:16.079 --> 00:36:22.840 these intelligent artificial beings. Again, it's great science fiction, it's not reality. 421 00:36:22.519 --> 00:36:25.639 One more question I'd like to ask you before we go to the break, 422 00:36:25.679 --> 00:36:28.960 and after the break, I want you to talk a little bit about 423 00:36:29.000 --> 00:36:32.840 your story Robinson Calculator in the anthology and also your radio play. It's real 424 00:36:32.880 --> 00:36:37.639 life, just one a very prestigious award and it's being again very well received 425 00:36:37.639 --> 00:36:40.760 and well reviewed. We talk about that after the break, but before the 426 00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:45.760 break, and we were talking off air before we came on, I ut 427 00:36:45.800 --> 00:36:51.519 of breaking news story and it was about Google and is developing AI artificial intelligent 428 00:36:51.639 --> 00:36:57.360 tools for journalists under something called Genesis. Now, of course that raised the 429 00:36:57.400 --> 00:37:01.440 hackles in many a newsroom around the country and around the world, and Google 430 00:37:01.519 --> 00:37:06.639 responded by saying, of course this would just be a tool. It wouldn't 431 00:37:06.679 --> 00:37:13.519 be meant to replace journalists. But I see issues for within that also because 432 00:37:13.599 --> 00:37:17.639 part of the tools they're offering is, for example, choose a writing style 433 00:37:17.880 --> 00:37:22.480 that would be most appropriate for this story. You plug that in and it 434 00:37:22.519 --> 00:37:24.519 would give you back. Well, you might want to choose this style. 435 00:37:24.920 --> 00:37:30.599 Well that's not true journal isn't That's that's letting all right, Maybe you put 436 00:37:30.639 --> 00:37:32.559 in some of the parameters, but somebody else is doing all the work. 437 00:37:32.920 --> 00:37:38.320 I can't imagine that being in that the way they're describing it being something that 438 00:37:38.360 --> 00:37:43.039 I would be very interested in it all Well, I agree with you completely. 439 00:37:43.079 --> 00:37:46.440 And my solution to this, which I've been saying but nobody ever listens 440 00:37:46.480 --> 00:37:52.599 to me, is another feeling wall. I'd like to see Congress, you 441 00:37:52.599 --> 00:37:57.480 know, once and for all, do something that makes some sense. And 442 00:37:57.960 --> 00:38:01.039 here is something rather than just ringing hand say oh my god, chat EPT 443 00:38:01.320 --> 00:38:05.679 is destroying education, it is destroying journalism. Bab bla blah blah, whatever 444 00:38:05.840 --> 00:38:09.519 name. Whether there's Chat GPT or chat x y Z, I don't get 445 00:38:09.599 --> 00:38:15.320 there. But basically, this pass a simple law that says that any product 446 00:38:15.559 --> 00:38:23.800 of artificial intelligence, any written product of artificial intelligence, have an indelible watermark 447 00:38:23.960 --> 00:38:29.079 on it in Delaware. You can erase it, you can expunge it that 448 00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:36.199 says this was created at least in part or maybe completely by an AI. 449 00:38:36.519 --> 00:38:42.320 And then let the reader decide. And you know, I'm with you who 450 00:38:42.440 --> 00:38:45.800 wants something that's put together by an AI? And this obviously not only affects 451 00:38:47.199 --> 00:38:52.360 writing, it affects art, it affects music. But I do have to 452 00:38:52.360 --> 00:38:53.920 say, as far as music is concerned, I make this point over and 453 00:38:53.960 --> 00:39:00.320 over again as well, that ever since the nineteen sixties, when you hear 454 00:39:00.440 --> 00:39:08.039 a recording, there's been some kind of electronic words. Remember pulpit. And 455 00:39:08.079 --> 00:39:12.800 then we'll go to the break. First recording session I saw many many years 456 00:39:12.840 --> 00:39:16.679 ago, and I was just astounded how they recorded separately, like they start 457 00:39:16.719 --> 00:39:21.280 with the drum somebody lays down the rhythm and then the bass, and he 458 00:39:21.440 --> 00:39:23.639 does the bass thread, and then the guitar comes in, and the last 459 00:39:23.679 --> 00:39:28.880 thing they put in is the vocals, and then they might do another altogether. 460 00:39:29.159 --> 00:39:31.559 And as you mentioned, the engineer is manipulating a little here, or 461 00:39:31.719 --> 00:39:37.639 they're sweetening there, adding there, detracting there. And that was oh God, 462 00:39:37.639 --> 00:39:38.960 I think they had to be in the late seventies that I saw that. 463 00:39:39.400 --> 00:39:43.679 Yeah, I look, Frank Sinacha started his career. Where if he 464 00:39:43.840 --> 00:39:49.880 made a mistake when he was singing a song like that Old Black Magic Got 465 00:39:49.920 --> 00:39:52.599 Me in the Days. Oh wait a second, no, the word is 466 00:39:52.679 --> 00:39:54.960 not days is in a spin? Okay, they would have to start at 467 00:39:54.960 --> 00:40:00.639 the very beginning and have him sing it over again. But at the time 468 00:40:00.920 --> 00:40:06.079 Sinatra was saying Strangers and the Night, exchanging the l answers. If he 469 00:40:06.199 --> 00:40:08.480 made a mistake, he didn't have to sing the whole thing over again, 470 00:40:08.559 --> 00:40:13.519 just how to go back into studio and just saying the correct note, maybe 471 00:40:13.519 --> 00:40:16.679 a note before and after, and they would splice that in or even pretty 472 00:40:16.679 --> 00:40:21.920 soon after that digitally be able to insert that and replace the bad notes. 473 00:40:22.159 --> 00:40:24.079 Well, well, I'm going to give away a trade secret. Neil does 474 00:40:24.119 --> 00:40:29.960 that for me on every show as I tripple all over myself on a regular 475 00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:32.199 basis. At the end of the show, Neil says, I can fix 476 00:40:32.280 --> 00:40:37.400 that, so so I very much, I very much appreciate it. Look, 477 00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:39.960 let's take let's take a quick break. When we come back. I 478 00:40:40.000 --> 00:40:44.079 want to talk a little bit about your story. Robinson Calculator gives a little 479 00:40:44.079 --> 00:40:47.199 bit more detail and what's happening with its its real life, the alternate history 480 00:40:47.199 --> 00:40:52.360 of the Beatles. My guest here on Being Frank is doctor Paul Levans, 481 00:40:52.400 --> 00:40:57.840 and we're talking all things AI, robots, androids, etc. I'm your 482 00:40:57.840 --> 00:41:00.519 host, Frank Leborno. This is Being Frank, where the only way to 483 00:41:00.599 --> 00:41:06.159 be is Frank will be right back on Coney where you at Hudson River Radio 484 00:41:06.360 --> 00:41:08.880 dot com. Bring a dash of green into your life. Check out the 485 00:41:08.960 --> 00:41:15.079 Many Shades of Green with Maxine, margar Reuben and Malcolm Burman. Get informed 486 00:41:15.119 --> 00:41:20.000 about environmental issues and current events that affect us all. Pick a shade of 487 00:41:20.039 --> 00:41:24.719 green and raise your eco consciousness with the Many Shades of Green available on Apple 488 00:41:24.719 --> 00:41:32.760 Podcasts, iHeart, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. You ought to 489 00:41:32.760 --> 00:41:37.119 be in movies. Well, at least you should watch movies. The silver 490 00:41:37.239 --> 00:41:44.119 Screen Podcast talks about all aspects of film and entertainment, current films, old 491 00:41:44.159 --> 00:41:49.599 films, how movies are made, and interviews with moviemakers, authors and musicians 492 00:41:49.639 --> 00:41:54.440 too. Check out the silver Screen Podcast at Hudson River Radio dot com or 493 00:41:54.519 --> 00:42:06.920 wherever you get your podcasts and go watch a movie. Hudson River Radio dot 494 00:42:06.960 --> 00:42:10.239 com. You're back, or I hope you're back. We're back with being 495 00:42:10.280 --> 00:42:14.760 Frank where the only way to be is Frank. I'm your host, Frank 496 00:42:14.840 --> 00:42:20.320 Lebono. You know we're here with a new topical program every week at Hudson 497 00:42:20.400 --> 00:42:24.960 River Radio dot com. But remember you can catch us whenever and wherever you 498 00:42:25.119 --> 00:42:30.199 listen to your favorite podcasts, Apple, Spotify, Speaker, ihet Radio, 499 00:42:30.719 --> 00:42:36.079 etc. My very special guest tonight is doctor Paul Levinson. We're talking AI, 500 00:42:36.400 --> 00:42:40.000 robots, androids, etc. He is going to be represented in a 501 00:42:40.079 --> 00:42:45.440 new book and anthology that's going to be published on July twenty fifth, and 502 00:42:45.480 --> 00:42:47.480 we are recording on July twentieth, and so just a few days. We're 503 00:42:47.519 --> 00:42:53.119 excited about that. It's called Robots through the Ages and again an anthology of 504 00:42:53.840 --> 00:43:00.639 all things science fiction concerning robots and androids, and Paul contributed a story, 505 00:43:00.159 --> 00:43:05.320 Robinson Calculator. Paul, Welcome back. Paul, tell us a little bit 506 00:43:05.360 --> 00:43:07.960 in some detail. What is Robinson Calculator. Where did you get the title 507 00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:13.719 from? What's it about? Well, here's where I got the title from. 508 00:43:13.760 --> 00:43:17.639 And this is a true story. The story I was first published in 509 00:43:17.679 --> 00:43:23.800 twenty nineteen, so I guess it was in two eighteen that I went to 510 00:43:23.960 --> 00:43:30.800 something called an unveiling, which in the Jewish religion, a year after a 511 00:43:30.920 --> 00:43:37.840 person passes away and has a funeral that first year, the tombstone is veiled, 512 00:43:38.280 --> 00:43:43.519 and then the family comes back the following year and there's an unveiling. 513 00:43:43.599 --> 00:43:49.519 The veil is taken off the tombstone. So it was a cemetery in Westchester, 514 00:43:50.119 --> 00:43:53.039 and we went to the unveiling. And this part is not fiction, 515 00:43:53.119 --> 00:43:59.000 this is true. I'm walking back to get my car to pick up my 516 00:43:59.079 --> 00:44:01.280 family, who's still there, you know, at the grave site. And 517 00:44:01.360 --> 00:44:07.599 I'm walking and I do a double take because I see there's a tombstone, 518 00:44:07.159 --> 00:44:15.920 and on the tombstone is carved the words Robinson Calculator. And I said to 519 00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:19.599 myself, Wow, rob it's a calculator. I mean, you know, 520 00:44:19.639 --> 00:44:23.800 I don't mean any disrespect for the dead. Yeah, it's a very usual 521 00:44:23.880 --> 00:44:30.320 name. And I couldn't stop thinking about that. And so finally, and 522 00:44:30.400 --> 00:44:34.000 you know, when you're a science fiction writer, things that I guess most 523 00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:37.880 people were just Okay, this happened, but they say, stick to your 524 00:44:37.880 --> 00:44:42.840 brain and they roll around there. And finally, after a week, I 525 00:44:42.880 --> 00:44:47.159 said, there's a story here. And what the story is is that there 526 00:44:47.280 --> 00:44:52.199 is a group of androids. I don't know how far back in history they 527 00:44:52.280 --> 00:44:57.519 go. They've been with us for centuries, you know, maybe even longer, 528 00:44:58.239 --> 00:45:04.199 called the Calculators, and they've been keeping secret all this time. But 529 00:45:04.360 --> 00:45:08.880 for some reason, either somebody made a mistake or maybe more likely that going 530 00:45:08.920 --> 00:45:13.639 out in the open now, you know, burying you know, one of 531 00:45:13.719 --> 00:45:21.639 their lost members in a public ceremony and putting the name Robinson Calculator, you 532 00:45:21.719 --> 00:45:27.400 know, on the tombstone. So that was the impetus for writing the story. 533 00:45:27.480 --> 00:45:30.440 That's what you read at the beginning of the story. But as I 534 00:45:30.440 --> 00:45:35.559 said before, when we were talking about androids, it's what has always interested 535 00:45:35.559 --> 00:45:38.679 in me, is Matt, you know, androids and robots rising up and 536 00:45:38.719 --> 00:45:43.000 destroying us. Although that's always, you know, a good thing to write 537 00:45:43.039 --> 00:45:46.639 about in science fiction. But I'm always more interested in the other side of 538 00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:54.840 life, androids as friends, androids as lovers. And so the character in 539 00:45:54.880 --> 00:46:00.360 the story of the lead character, who unsurprisingly is a professor film and philosophy 540 00:46:00.440 --> 00:46:07.000 at Fordham University. Uh, you always write best about what you know, 541 00:46:07.159 --> 00:46:14.920 so I know about being at what you know. And so he realizes that 542 00:46:15.039 --> 00:46:20.079 a friend of his had been married to a calculate early and calculator, but 543 00:46:20.159 --> 00:46:24.280 it didn't work out. His friend was human, she was a calculator, 544 00:46:24.519 --> 00:46:29.039 and so he decides he wanted he wants to try to get to know her, 545 00:46:29.440 --> 00:46:36.719 and that leads to some very very interesting consequences, including that the family 546 00:46:36.760 --> 00:46:39.480 of calculators are not going to be happy about this. The last thing they 547 00:46:39.519 --> 00:46:45.280 want is a professor at Forham University with a big mouth, again modeled up 548 00:46:45.320 --> 00:46:50.599 to me, you know, finds out more information about them. So that's 549 00:46:50.639 --> 00:46:54.880 what the story is. And I knew when I wrote the story that it 550 00:46:55.039 --> 00:46:58.960 was going to go places. You know you can always tell. I mean, 551 00:46:59.000 --> 00:47:02.159 a writer usually likes everything that the writer writes, but every once in 552 00:47:02.159 --> 00:47:07.079 a while you write something and you realize I really hit it. You know, 553 00:47:07.559 --> 00:47:14.079 there's something special about this. And so I was delighted when Brian Thomas 554 00:47:14.079 --> 00:47:17.079 Schmidt, who co edited the volume with a great science fiction writer, Robert 555 00:47:17.119 --> 00:47:22.000 Silverberg, and Brian's an excellent science fiction writer himself, sent me an email. 556 00:47:22.199 --> 00:47:24.760 I guess it was a couple of years ago, already saying hey, 557 00:47:24.920 --> 00:47:31.000 I'm putting together this volume, this anthology with Robert Silverberg. We think your 558 00:47:31.079 --> 00:47:38.599 story, Robinson Calculator, would be a great part of that volume. How 559 00:47:38.599 --> 00:47:42.559 would you feel about that? And I said I would feel great about it. 560 00:47:42.559 --> 00:47:45.960 I think I feel pretty good about congratulations. Where can people get the 561 00:47:45.960 --> 00:47:49.880 book, Well, they can get the book anywhere. And by the way, 562 00:47:50.679 --> 00:47:55.599 the publisher, Blackstone, a really great distinguished promison company. They are 563 00:47:55.679 --> 00:48:00.280 putting the book out in almost every conceivable ada. You can get it as 564 00:48:00.320 --> 00:48:05.280 a kindle, you can get it as a paperback, you can get it 565 00:48:05.360 --> 00:48:08.760 as a hardcover, you can get it as an audio book. And let 566 00:48:08.800 --> 00:48:15.639 me mention here I mentioned Lieutenant Commanded Data Apropos Star Trek. That was Star 567 00:48:15.679 --> 00:48:21.239 Trek the next generation. Well, everyone of course knows Leonard Nimoy played Spock 568 00:48:21.400 --> 00:48:23.519 in Star Trek, the original series and in a whole bunch of movies. 569 00:48:24.000 --> 00:48:30.920 And what I didn't know is that Leonard Nimoy a couple of decades ago, 570 00:48:30.599 --> 00:48:37.119 read a story written by Abram Davidson, The Golan and Appropo how far back 571 00:48:37.159 --> 00:48:45.599 this goes? The Golan was a mid evil legend in Czechoslovakia. It was 572 00:48:45.639 --> 00:48:50.719 basically a rabbi puts together some clay and he puts together in a way that 573 00:48:50.840 --> 00:48:54.360 becomes an artificial being. In the nineteen fifties, and another author that I 574 00:48:54.559 --> 00:49:00.840 read voraciously was Abram Davidson, who sadly is no longer with us. He 575 00:49:00.840 --> 00:49:05.960 wrote a great story, The Golem, and Leonard Nimoy narrates that story, 576 00:49:06.119 --> 00:49:10.880 and that is going to be in the audio book of Robots through the Ages, 577 00:49:10.960 --> 00:49:15.599 so you can read it, you can hear it. And you know, 578 00:49:15.639 --> 00:49:19.119 I've read all the stories in the book. I gotta tell you that 579 00:49:19.440 --> 00:49:22.039 most of the stories in the book I had already read, but it was 580 00:49:22.119 --> 00:49:24.719 great to see them again. Well, that's just great. And if that's 581 00:49:24.760 --> 00:49:29.920 not enough, you have its real life just won a Mary Shelley Award. 582 00:49:30.719 --> 00:49:34.760 Tell us a little bit. It's the alternate history of the Beatles you've been 583 00:49:34.840 --> 00:49:37.039 on. The program talks a little bit about it, but tell us about 584 00:49:37.079 --> 00:49:40.320 the Mary Shelley Award, what that means to you, what it means in 585 00:49:40.360 --> 00:49:44.400 general, and what it means to you, and a little bit more about 586 00:49:44.400 --> 00:49:47.719 the radio play. Well, it means the world to me. It's given 587 00:49:47.719 --> 00:49:54.880 by the Media Ecology Association, the Media Ecology program at New York University with 588 00:49:55.000 --> 00:50:00.679 Neo Postman as the primary professor. There was where I got my PhD. 589 00:50:01.280 --> 00:50:08.119 So I'm a member of the Media College Association. But they contacted me a 590 00:50:08.159 --> 00:50:13.239 couple of months ago and said, hey, we're giving you the Mary Shelley 591 00:50:13.280 --> 00:50:20.400 Award this year for your story and the radio play Robinson Calculator. And this 592 00:50:20.599 --> 00:50:25.920 also was directly tied to form University. As you know, I knew Pete 593 00:50:25.960 --> 00:50:34.000 Forna tell I've admired his work since I was a professor at Bailey Dickinson University 594 00:50:34.400 --> 00:50:38.239 and used I think his very first book, Radio in the Age of Television 595 00:50:38.280 --> 00:50:42.800 and one of my classes back then in the late nineteen seventies, early nineteen 596 00:50:42.800 --> 00:50:49.119 eighties. And so it's real life tells the story of what Pete fun to 597 00:50:49.199 --> 00:50:53.639 tell in nineteen ninety six, it goes through when he plays a couple of 598 00:50:53.639 --> 00:51:00.639 Beatles songs, gets this Incohte feeling of dread. It doesn't quite know why 599 00:51:00.360 --> 00:51:07.280 goes down to Grand Central Terminal because he has an appointment with WNET to do 600 00:51:07.440 --> 00:51:10.440 a beat you know, someone who's a special show about the Beach Boys. 601 00:51:10.480 --> 00:51:16.679 But what he discovers in Grand Central Station is, and what we the reader 602 00:51:16.800 --> 00:51:22.280 discover, is that Pete was living in a very different world than we're living 603 00:51:22.480 --> 00:51:29.639 in and that tension between these two worlds, the world as it could have 604 00:51:29.719 --> 00:51:32.599 been, the world as we know now reality. That's really the essence of 605 00:51:32.599 --> 00:51:39.400 the story, and it reflects my feeling. And I've mentioned this to you 606 00:51:39.440 --> 00:51:44.760 before. There are many things that are wrong with this world. There are 607 00:51:44.760 --> 00:51:50.000 many things that shouldn't have happened. And the killing of John Lennon, to 608 00:51:50.159 --> 00:51:54.000 me, in many ways, is the single worst thing that happened because he, 609 00:51:54.599 --> 00:52:00.760 Okay, Abraham Lincoln was assassinated. They almost killed, they just missed, 610 00:52:00.760 --> 00:52:04.760 and they wound up killing the mayor of Chicago, Franklin down Or Roosevelt. 611 00:52:05.280 --> 00:52:08.800 John F. Kennedy was assassinated. Tragically, when you're in politics, 612 00:52:09.360 --> 00:52:14.840 people take shots at you, and those are horrible, but John Lennon was 613 00:52:15.480 --> 00:52:20.800 He was a wonderful musician, a brain songwriter. And from the day that 614 00:52:20.880 --> 00:52:25.840 I heard that John Lennon was killed, I just felt that somehow I was 615 00:52:27.000 --> 00:52:31.760 living and everyone in our world was living in a universe that had been bent 616 00:52:32.639 --> 00:52:39.320 into a world that should not have happened in the first place. And that's 617 00:52:39.320 --> 00:52:43.360 what I was trying to do in both the story and the radio play. 618 00:52:43.719 --> 00:52:47.960 I would say one final thing. Vin TC, who was a student of 619 00:52:49.000 --> 00:52:52.599 mine at the New School, is the guy who produced and put together the 620 00:52:53.239 --> 00:52:59.159 radio play, and I was really delighted. He said to me, Hey, 621 00:52:59.159 --> 00:53:04.079 we need somebody play peace born a tell uh you have any ideas? 622 00:53:04.760 --> 00:53:07.639 And you know how arrogant I am. I said, yeah, how about 623 00:53:07.679 --> 00:53:15.440 me? You do I know I'm kind of showing that way too. I 624 00:53:15.480 --> 00:53:22.280 guess people haven't noticed. Where can people here hear the play? The radio 625 00:53:22.320 --> 00:53:27.400 play? Okay, so they can hear in a variety of places. Um 626 00:53:27.440 --> 00:53:31.800 but Apropoa. Vin TC, who actually now pronounces his name ventis um but 627 00:53:31.880 --> 00:53:38.840 spelled the same way. He has an internet radio station called Killer What Radio 628 00:53:39.320 --> 00:53:45.840 KLW, So just search on quote it's real life unquote and killer k I 629 00:53:46.199 --> 00:53:53.599 L L E. R. Watt Radio and you'll find the radio play there. 630 00:53:53.960 --> 00:53:58.760 And if you just search on the story, it's real life and you 631 00:53:58.840 --> 00:54:06.119 put the word vote Vocal. After that you can find the website Vocal where 632 00:54:06.159 --> 00:54:10.400 the story was published. You can also buy the story on Amazon. But 633 00:54:10.519 --> 00:54:15.280 I'm you know, I like money as much as the next person, but 634 00:54:15.360 --> 00:54:17.760 I would much rather, you know, I don't. I'm not doing this 635 00:54:17.800 --> 00:54:22.400 to make money. I would rather people know that it's available out there for 636 00:54:22.519 --> 00:54:27.000 free and avail themselves of that. All has always want to thank you for 637 00:54:27.039 --> 00:54:30.159 your intelligent conversation. Always a pleasure. We could talk all night, but 638 00:54:30.400 --> 00:54:35.679 just about that at the time, of course you'll be back. So grateful. 639 00:54:35.760 --> 00:54:39.360 Thank you, Paul, my pleasure as always anytime. And of course 640 00:54:39.360 --> 00:54:44.320 that guy where you can't see him, but because we only we only stream 641 00:54:44.400 --> 00:54:46.920 the audio but video. That guy up top with the funky hat on, 642 00:54:47.039 --> 00:54:51.920 that's that's Neil Richter. The he's the mailman. He's always driving our bus 643 00:54:51.920 --> 00:54:54.000 getting us to where we need to be. Of course, special thanks to 644 00:54:54.039 --> 00:54:58.199 our listeners who take the time to give us a voice in their lives. 645 00:54:58.599 --> 00:55:02.639 And remember we offer a fresh topic every week. Catch us wherever and whenever 646 00:55:02.760 --> 00:55:07.159 can make it easier than that. Wherever you get your favorite podcasts either at 647 00:55:07.679 --> 00:55:14.639 Hudson River Radio dot com or Apple, Spotify, iHeartRadio, Speaker and more. 648 00:55:15.360 --> 00:55:20.599 Remember we have a Facebook page Hudson River Radio Wells on website Hudson River 649 00:55:20.760 --> 00:55:24.480 Radio dot com where you can catch all the great shows that we offer. 650 00:55:25.320 --> 00:55:30.079 Let me leave you with two last little bits, a little slogan and some 651 00:55:30.239 --> 00:55:32.880 music, as is my tradition, and this one's from one of my favorites, 652 00:55:34.440 --> 00:55:37.480 Marcus Aurelia is getting really high brow here at to tonight Ball. The 653 00:55:37.599 --> 00:55:44.559 happiness of your life depends on the quality of your thoughts. Simple and direct 654 00:55:44.679 --> 00:55:47.519 enough, but right on. You've got some great music from a good friend, 655 00:55:49.039 --> 00:55:52.920 former co worker, Chris Wall and his band they called wreck Wall. 656 00:55:52.960 --> 00:55:59.360 This is a great acoustic acoustic tune on an acoustic album. This is Chris 657 00:55:59.360 --> 00:56:04.480 Wall of Right Wall. This too shall pass. I'm your host, Frank 658 00:56:04.519 --> 00:56:07.679 Labono. This has been being Frank. We're the only way to be is 659 00:56:07.719 --> 00:56:12.760 Frank, for better or worse, and hopefully we'll see you next week. 660 00:56:12.960 --> 00:56:36.760 Thanks to everybody. Nothing new, be right, free fights, maybe this 661 00:56:37.360 --> 00:56:54.440 here, Oh my good right, it's too accating out of fight. I 662 00:56:54.519 --> 00:57:10.000 am no say here, I have no right listsh O bass. I had 663 00:57:10.320 --> 00:57:27.239 a bolded crab listsh O pass at least tipting that it goes so fast, 664 00:57:29.000 --> 00:57:57.559 it goes so fast. Nothing new here, do emphisside. Maybe this time 665 00:58:00.079 --> 00:58:10.719 I will can bide. It's true, I saved it all my time. 666 00:58:14.800 --> 00:58:29.679 I'd like to stay here me before while, let's do sho pass. I 667 00:58:29.840 --> 00:58:40.559 have a fod the ground. Let's to shine bass at least I mean it 668 00:58:42.119 --> 00:59:07.320 less go to fast, it goes so fast. This is Hudson River Radio 669 00:59:07.559 --> 00:59:09.199 dot com.