WEBVTT

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One of the most interesting experiences of
my time. There was going to Trump

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towards see Steve Bannon, who had
built breadfart into or helped build breakfart into

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this machine to support Donald Trump,
And he was so curious and confused why

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we hadn't done that with Bernie Sanders, Why we hadn't turned BuzzFeed just into

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a machine to support and promote Bernie
Sanders over Hillary Clinton. Not because he

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had some idea a lot of maybe
he liked Bernie, I don't know,

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but mostly just because that's obviously where
the traffic was. Welcome to the News

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not Noise podcast. I'm Jessica Yellen. Ben Smith is a celebrated and feared

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politics and media reporter. He is
a new media entrepreneur, and he is

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unique in the political press for his
willingness to take risks on new ventures and

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tell old ventures what they're doing wrong. His career tracks the dizzying changes in

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the media landscape over the last fifteen
years. Smith was one of the first

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reporters at Politico. He went on
to become the founding editor of BuzzFeed News,

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as a must read media columnist at
The New York Times, and is

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now co founder of a global media
outlet, Semaphore, Smith is out with

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a new book, Traffic, Genius, Rivalry, and Delusion In the billion

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dollar race to go viral. It
chronicles the rise and decline of BuzzFeed and

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Gawker, and the online ascent of
right wing populist figures like Andrew Breitbart and

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Ben Shapiro. Here we dive into
the forces that changed the press, how

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the web and Facebook got the media
addicted to virality, clicks, and traffic.

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We explore what could come next and
where you can turn for trustworthy news

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and information today. I hope you
enjoyed this conversation. Ben, Hi,

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congrats on all the things on Semaphore, on this book. It's great to

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see you. Thank you so much
for having me, Jessica, and congrats

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on what you've built. Thank you. You know, I was trying to

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remember when we first met, and
I think it was either in late two

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thousand and seven or two thousand and
eight, when we were both covering the

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presidential campaign. You'd just gone to
Politico then, is that right? Yeah,

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the Politico. It was this new
thing that had just launched. Yeah,

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And I think at the time,
everything we were covering and the way

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we did it felt pretty intense,
but in retrospect it was way less noisy,

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and I wonder, how how do
you sort of capture that or explain

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what was different then from how we
do things now. Well, in a

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way, I mean, you were
this big shot reporter for CNN and people

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were lugging cameras around, and Politico
was in a way to the beginning of

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the chaos and the noise. I
think like our advantage was that while you

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were bringing your tape back to the
truck and winding it up and doing whatever

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those TV people were doing, we
were just like blogging and putting things on

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the Internet really really fast and stressing
everybody out. And I could certainly feel,

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as the person who was sort of
bringing the speed most of all of

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the Internet into this more traditional campaign
structure, just how disruptive it was,

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how much it kept people on their
toes, And there were certain candidates and

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political staffers who figured it out and
adapted and used it to their own advantage,

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and others who were very discombobulated by
it. We'll talk about speed and

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disruption first. I want to give
people just a sense of you in your

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career. I think one of the
great things about being a journalist is you

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often find yourself in a room where
you have access to either extremely intimate moments

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or real power, or moments when
history is being made. If you had

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to make a sizzle of some of
those moments in your career, what would

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be among those moments? Oh,
my gosh, I mean I I you

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know, I came up covering New
York politics and sort of rise of Mike

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Bloomberg, which not that not that
interesting or intimate, I wouldn't say.

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And then it was lucky enough to
cover the Obama Clinton campaign of OA,

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which was, yeah, an incredible
ride and one of those things where you

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find yourself stumbling into the gym at
six thirty am in a Tumwa, Iowa

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and there's Barack Obama on the StairMaster. And then and then went over from

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Politico, where I covered you know, his the you know that campaign,

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to BuzzFeed, which was the strange, you know, idea that this cat

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website was gonna do political journalism.
And I went over there and covered the

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the Obama Romney campaign, which felt
very exciting for the time in retrospect,

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the most boring presidential campaign the United
States for Busfeed and then did also you

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know, all sorts of other stuff
there and you know, really kind of

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in a way like brought the internet
fully into journalism and journalism into the internet.

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You know, lots of things was
proud of there. Also, it

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was ultimately ended really badly and they
shut down busfeed News last week, which

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makes me quite sad. We're going
to talk about that. I want to

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start first with other news from the
week, which was that Tucker Carlson is

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out at Fox, Don Lemon is
out at CNN. The loudest voices at

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each network is now gone. You're
not just a figure in the media and

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a person who's built media companies.
You cover the media. Do you think

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their departures mark a move away from
extreme bombast, perpetual outrage, or do

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you think their work will actually look
quaint a few years from now? You

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know, I do think that the
big mainstream outlets, to the degree agit

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you could call Fox mainstream as well, are trying to move away from,

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you know, essentially the Trump berea, which is which is you know what

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defined figures like Tucker Carlson and Don
Lemon, who are by the way,

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very different from each other, but
I mean, I think, I mean,

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aren't you know, aren't you say
of it? I mean I think,

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I think there is a broad social
sense that, like nobody, that

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level of divisiveness and bombast is really
tiring and unhealthy, and I do think

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there's certainly an effort to move away
from it. But it's also very seductive,

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and I don't know if it will
succeed. Well, let's see who

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Fox names as Tucker's replacement. That'll
be some indication if we're headed to more

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or less noise. So, Ben, your career has tracked the evolution of

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new media and new business models for
the press. For everyone listening, I

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think this conversation is an opportunity for
people outside the media to understand some of

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the pressures on the press and why
the news has changed so dramatically in the

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last ten to fifteen years. The
book you've written, Traffic, is largely

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about BuzzFeed, where you became founding
editor in chief of their news division.

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It's since shut down last week.
As you mentioned, I remember, at

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one moment, BuzzFeed was the envy
of all media because it had this massive

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reach going back to its earliest days. What was BuzzFeed's genius forgetting eyeballs and

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how did that change the way we
did the news? Yeah, I mean

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BuzzFeed was I think the founder of
BuzzFeed, this guy Jonahretti. The thing

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that he saw before everybody else was
this tidal wave of social media that you

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know, didn't just transform journalism,
transformed all of our lives and sort of

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came crashing through society and had the
idea that you know, a sort of

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news organization of the future wasn't going
to try to get you to come to

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its website. It was going to
distribute its content through these huge new platforms,

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first of all Facebook, but also
Twitter, also Interests, also Google,

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and you know, I think there
was an idea that in a way,

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those things were the new cable.
In the eighties, cable had been

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laid into the ground, and these
companies like ESPN, CNN, MTV had

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built this new way of telling stories
that was defined, you know, that

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was rooted in this new medium and
this new technology. And I think what

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he thought, and what we thought, with the people who poured hundreds of

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millions top dollars into this project,
thought was that there would be a new

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wave of media companies for these new
pipes, these new digital pipes. There

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are ways in which legacy media has
actually started to emulate BuzzFeed or and it

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still does. You know, traffic
really matters. Clickbait often competes with deep

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reporting. Would the press be where
it is now if there had never been

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a BuzzFeed? You know, I
think BuzzFeed was better at understanding what people

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on social media wanted and what contemporary
consumers wanted than our competitors. But I

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think that ultimately what the you know, what these outlets are doing is responding

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not to some technological trick, but
to what people want, for vetter and

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for worse. I guess is it
the press's responsibility to sometimes give them what

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they need and not what they want, oh for sure, And in a

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way, just the decision to do
news and to try to I mean,

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it's easier to it's easier and cheaper
just to make stuff up and tell you

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exactly what you think, and it
is to go gather facts and check facts.

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There's a constention of us Feed where
we really knew what the story was

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that would go most viral, but
if it wasn't true, we weren't going

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to publish it. But you know, we could feel that, probably very

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tangibly. I mean, for me, one of the most interesting experiences of

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my time there was going to Trump
Towers see Steve Bannon, who had built

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a breakfart into or help build breakfart
into this machine to support Donald Trump,

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and he was so curious and confused
why we hadn't done that with Bernie Sanders,

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Why we hadn't turned BuzzFeed just into
a machine to support and promote Bernie

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Sanders over Hillary Flynt. Not because
he had some idea a lot of maybe

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he liked Bernie, I don't know, but mostly just because that's obviously where

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the traffic was. The people who
performed the best are intent agnostic, and

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they just give the audience what it
wants in the short term. Absolutely,

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Let's talk about Facebook, because it's
been a pretty destructive force for the press,

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and I think you see that it's
sort of distilled in the BuzzFeed story.

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On the one hand, Facebook did
drive reporting out to a much much

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broader audience, but it decimated or
kneecapped the business model. I think newsrooms

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are still struggling to figure out how
to survive financially in a world dominated by

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social media. How was BuzzFeed in
particular helped and hurt by Facebook. And

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what is that? How is that
a narrative of a microcosm of what's happened

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to the media at large. Yeah, and buzzed it was closer to Facebook

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than any other media company when I
when I got to BuzzFeed, they had

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just turned down an attempt to acquire
them by Facebook, and the Jonah who

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ran it was going to come and
run Facebook's newsfeed. He did not.

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He stayed outside, but he talked
to Mark Zuckerberg all the time, and

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we had a very clear handle on
what they were trying to do and vice

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versa. And that gave us just
this enormous reach and into the you know,

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to this huge audience a lot.
But but what it didn't prohide was

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revenue. Ultimately. I mean,
I think that one of the core misunderstands

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and the mistakes that the media made
was the idea that traffic, which and

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then the people clicking on our sites
and looking our sites, that its value

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would go up. That it was
sort of this digital commodity like oil,

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where like, if you had something, you'd be able to sell it.

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But the problem is that valuable commodities
are limited, you know, they're scarce.

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And as Facebook and Google built these
enormous stores of traffic, the small

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amounts of traffic that we had didn't
really have any value, and the price

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of our traffic kept going down instead
of up. And that's I mean,

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that's fundamentally what kind of you know, hit these business models so hard and

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they stopped paying for media content.
News content, well, Facebook, Facebook

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never wanted I mean these One of
the big the reasons that that that metaphor

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that it was going to be like
cable never panned out was that Google and

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Facebook and others just profoundly believed in
relying on user generated content and liked a

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lot that user rated content was free
to them. And we're basically hostile the

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idea that these media companies, We're
going to stand in the middle and try

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to build the next MTV or CNN
on their back like they wanted one hundred

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percent of that revenue. You left
a hot news outlet to join BuzzFeed and

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to found their news vertical. At
the time, you did not everybody understood

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when you did that. What was
the I'm sort of curious, what was

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the dream vision in your mind,
in your most evangelical moment. What did

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you think an outlet with that much
reach and those resources could do with news?

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Well, I mean, such is
funny to sort of try to put

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your head back into twenty eleven.
But one of the things that was happening

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then there was this new thing called
Twitter, and if you were a journalist,

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it was so much fun. Your
sources were on there, your colleagues

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were on there. It was this
very frank, real conversation and you were

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able to break news and see other
people break news. And the notion and

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I was sort of hooked on it, and the idea that you build a

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news organization that was just directly connected
to plat, to Twitter and to Facebook

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and to where his authentic conversation was, rather than try to drag the conversation

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back to your own sight, felt
just very felt like the kind of journals

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that I want to do, like
very transparent, just speaking directly to your

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audience exactly where they were, responding
to their questions when they had questions,

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none of the kind of artifice and
you know, the built up there's something

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so wooden about the old newspaper and
television media of the of the early auts,

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which and I think it is another
thing sort of hard to put your

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mind back. We're talking just after
the Iraq War, after the Great Financial

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Crisis, there was a sense these
institutions had really also discredited themselves. They'd

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failed, they'd missed the story.
And you felt that at a buzz at

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a buzz feed, at a place
that was new and fast and where you

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had more direct connection, you'd be
more responsive to what was happening in the

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moment and more responsive to what our
audience wanted and was interested in. That's

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certainly where we've gone. I mean, doing the news on social media,

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you're constantly hearing from the audience,
and it is really helpful and substantive.

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You know, you see what they
don't understand. People's smart, good questions,

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often better questions than the sort of
official questions. So that was sort

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of the dream when you went.
And in the end it turns out that

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the news division couldn't turn the profit
that the company needed and it's been shut

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down. So what made it harder
to do news in a traffic first environment

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than you expected? Well, I
mean, I'd say the broader story of

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all these companies isn't so much about
news, is that they wedded themselves to

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these social platforms that are falling apart. I mean Facebook is struggling. Twitter

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is really struggling. People are watching
TikTok, which is a different kind of

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a thing that's not social, in
the same way they're watching Netflix. I

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mean, it's just the world has
changed a lot, and companies that made

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a big bet on Facebook are all
in trouble, I think, basically,

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but news specifically, you know,
I think particularly as news and digital news

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became the substance that we were covering, became so toxic and divisive and polarizing

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and polarized. It was pretty hard, I mean, have been hard anyway

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to build a good advertising business on
there. And I think we spent more

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money than even a good advertising business
would have supported that. I think that

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kind of Trump era scared also scared
a lot of you know, the kind

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of revenue that you could have used
to build a stable business away. I

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mean, it was a really it's
kind of a toxic wasteland. I just

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always think that it was the Trump
era also became so toxic because of social

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and how news was already being done. Like there's which came first, Like

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could Trump have succeeded in the way
he did. Were we not already doing

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news in a social trafficky way.
It's an interesting counterfactual, But I think

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sometimes the media give ourselves too much
credit. Like if you think with this

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vast global wave of right wing populism
that from the Philippines to Brazil to the

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United States, to Britain to China
have come up with, you know,

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in the absence of Facebook specifically or
specific Facebook product choice is like probably,

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yes, you know, might it
have been different and played out differently without

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this kind of media also, but
I think it's hard. I wouldn't want

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to say it's quite that straightforward.
Well, let's talk about that. In

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the book, you explained that right
wing media has been better at using and

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winning on social and digital media than
the left. You talk about bright Bart,

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who I didn't remember that bright Bart
had sort of been Matt Drudges,

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Aaron boy in a way online Aran
boy, and then he went to work

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for Ariana. Like what a figure
from bright Bart to Steve Bannon to Ben

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Shapiro and even that a proud boy
co found advice They know how to build

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really airtight online ecosystems. Why and
what's different and better about what they do.

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Well. I think I wouldn't say
this is true of like all political

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conservatives or anything, but there's this
kind of right wing populism that is about

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crossing the lines, driving outrage,
pretty unconcerned with facts and rooted in anger.

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And I think that you know,
and that particularly in kind of mid

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century Facebook and mid mid decade Facebook, that was exactly what people would share.

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And it's also what the system Facebook
built specifically amplified. They were looking

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trying fear, how do you get
people stay engaged and stay really connected,

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And they were looking at signals that
you were really connected to the content,

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like are you sharing it? Are
you writing comments? And so what they

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would do is you would post something
incredibly divisive on your page and I would

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see it and I would comment kill
yourself. And they would see that as

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like wow, that's great engagement and
show it to more people. So they

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effectively tuned the algorithm and the platform
to accelerate the rage, vitriol and even

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I mean borderline violence content. Yeah, that's right. I mean I would

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say like human nature also fed that
like that. A lot of that is

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in US and in our politics,
and wasn't invented by Facebook, but it's

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certainly for a period the algorithm was
like very specifically amplifying it. But as

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we pointed out at the beginning of
our conversation, when with Tucker and Going

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in particular, you know that people
have kind of gotten exhausted by that bombast

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and rage and that it really leaves
us with such bad feelings you don't even

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want to go back and re engage. Do you think we're at a moment

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where we could be pivoting away from
that kind of brand of content winning apart

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from cable news on social in the
media in general. Well, I think

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we're pivoting away from I think people
are spending less time on social media.

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I mean TikTok is, to my
mind, not exactly social media. Then

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that is where a lot of the
time is going. It's it's a more

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leaned back, one way experience.
But yeah, and so I think that

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stuff is I think we're going to
look back at a lot of that.

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It's like, oh, that's what
the twenty tents were like, And I

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think it's not in the news business
entirely clear what comes next. I think

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the problems are clear. People feel
totally overwhelmed, and they're looking for mostly

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individual voices, not sort of faceless
brands who can help them steer through the

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news. I realize I am describing
what you do, but I do think

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that that's, you know, and
it's funny like journalists in particular, when

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you say words like influencer and personal
brand kind of like tend to like throw

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up in our mouths a little bit
crne, But it is that. I

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mean, it's you know, I
think that's just sort of how the world

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is organized now. So people are
more likely to connect with an individual they

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trust and who can kind of r
and keep that thrust, who's open to

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different points of view a little less
polarizing. I mean that's our hope.

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Well, let's talk about Semaphore.
Because you ended up leaving BuzzFeed. You

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went to the New York Times,
where you instantly started making news and got

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everyone's attention as always, then you
found it an outlet semaphore that's constitutionally buzzfeeds

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opposite. Semaphore is about reporting plus
context on issues of global importance, nuance

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over clickbait and an elite audience over
viral sharing. That's a little bit the

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old news model do you think that
the only path to survival for news then

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is going to a sort of smaller, more elite audience. I think that,

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you know, what a lot of
people are looking for now is in

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set the antidote to the thing they
were looking for ten years ago. I

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mean, I think people feel really, really overwhelmed and do not want to

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go to these chaotic platforms. He's
increasingly messy, canadic platforms to try to

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sort their way through. They're looking
for someone who can help. It's probably

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a person, not a faceless institution, who can help them put the news

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in contact. Who's going to bring
it. You're going to give you new

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information to tell them in a transparent
way, you know what do you think

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of that information? But also bring
in other voices that might disagree and try

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to sort of do that service of
pulling the this chaotic system together in a

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way that is useful and interesting and
informs you and doesn't leave you feeling they've

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been manipulated. I'm curious from your
experience at all these places, do you

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think there's a way for news outlets
broadly, not some reform particular, but

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broadly to get eyeballs and clicks without
leaning into negative sensationalism and outrage or do

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you think to some extent they all
have to push these buttons to survive and

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win. I mean, I think
you develop a relationship with your audience,

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and you should you know, and
you tell them the things that you think

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they want to want and need to
know. And obviously sometimes those are horrifically

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negative things. The world is full
of tragedies and catastrophes. I don't think

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anybody is asking to be shielded from
that. I think people don't want to

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feel their being manipulated. And that's
a little hard to put your finger on,

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but you know, when you see
it, that's so true. It's

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my whole case for what I do. And at the same time you see

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that as other media outlets keep doing
the manipulative thing, it gets them traffic.

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So it's kind of this tension the
media is living inside of. And

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if you're running a newsroom, that's
something that all these newsleaders have to constantly

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navigate. If you look at a
place like Vices, just downside their news

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BuzzFeed is closing news closed at Fox
Prime Time, which is where they make

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their money, but where you have
the most bounbassed and outrage and conspiracy is

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at war with daytime where there's actual
reported information. Are we at a place

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where the forces, the investors who
own a lot of these major companies are

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so determined to squeeze profit out of
every corner that it's necessarily going to keep

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news wedded to that model as well. I think that's probably true. If

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cable tell vision, yeah, you
know, we are headed into a world.

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One of the things about Facebook was
it created this kind of monoculture where

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everybody was, every publisher, every
journalist was sort of competing for space in

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the same on the same channel,
which was Facebook, which had a certain

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set of incentives. I think we're
just headed into a much more splintered world

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where people are getting all sorts of
different kinds of things from different places.

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You do, and I actually think
that's probably healthier. That is probably more

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like what it used to be.
I mean, it can get, it

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can be, it can has its
own risks, it can send people into

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silos where they choose their own reality. But I don't think in the end

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it felt particularly healthy to everyone screaming
at their top of their lungs in the

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same room. No, I agree, we're headed sort of into like valued

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communities where you can sort of find
your people and your interests together. Yeah,

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which feels cozier and safer at a
chaotic time. We're also headed into

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twenty twenty four, which is going
to be extremely chaotic. What do you

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predict for the media in the twenty
four cycle? And if if you had

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to give this audience five places where
you think it's worth their time their money

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to pay for content to understand what's
going on in twenty twenty four, what

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outlets would you suggest that they followup? So I'm not sure it is going

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to be that chad like. It
looks like it is Donald Trump and Joe

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Biden kind of lumbering toward when toward
an inevitable contrat Like maybe that'll change,

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but it's almost the opposite of the
chad. It seems sort of boring.

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I hate to say that, but
with deep fakes and AI and concern about

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what's real and not online, I
tend to think some of that is overstated,

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and I think people and consumers and
the consumers are pretty sophisticated about about

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what they say, particularly in the
big high stakes stuff. You're not going

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to fall for a deep fake of
Donald Trump, you might fall for a

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deep fake of your spouse, you
know, on the phone scam. I

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think to me like that and maybe
even in a city council race, right.

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I think the more attention, the
more like focused, high level attention,

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is the harder it is going to
be to insert that kind of digital

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past. I think people are exhausted
by at the last two cycles, and

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I'm sure by the time and people
have very strong feelings about Donald Trump,

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I don't think they're like changing their
minds at this point. And I'm sure

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by the time twenty twenty four comes
around, particularly if he is on the

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ballot, people feel incredibly strong way
about voting. But I'm not sure there's

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a really interesting, heated debate about
Donald Trump. I think people kind of

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know what they think and aren't always
super interested in talking about him all the

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time. That's true. I have
to put a trigger warning up before I

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report on Trump. Good Good.
What are a couple outlets you think are

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worth spending money to get your important
news content from spending money? Well,

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some force free, but I think
it's important. I think you should go

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there as well. I mean,
I think I'm going to give you such

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boring answers like I think The New
York Times is you know, which where

355
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I used to work, has all
sorts of problems, but is doing a

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pretty good job covering politics. I
think there are sub stacks that give you

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thoughtful, interesting individual perspectives from pretty
you know, diverse you know, from

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a diverse range that can be pretty
interesting, and you feel when you pay

359
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money you actually know who you're paying, which is nice. I don't know,

360
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actually, for whatever reason, I
think The Financial Times is right now

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the best newspaper in the world,
and that is the thing I pay money

362
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for. Most of the characters in
your book are guys, and most of

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00:24:12.799 --> 00:24:18.960
the investment money in new media flows
to guys. Both Tucker Carlson and Don

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Lemon made chauvinism kind of part of
their brand. You say they're very different.

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They are, but that is also
true both of them. I think

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there are some breakout women, but
would you agree that they are the exception

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more than the rule, and if
so, does that need to change.

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I actually was surprised in the reporting
of the book because the two characters who

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are sort of the central threads are
men, but actually women were the ones

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who did most of the work.
I'm sure you'll be. Well, that's

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always true to learn. And who
created a lot of this new media,

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you know, the sort of bloggers
at both at BuzzFeed and a half,

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those who kind of shaped these forms
were mostly women, and and you know,

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and to me, yeah, and
I think sorry, the question was

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is it good if women do the
work credit? I would say, would

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you agree that though the money and
acclaim flowed to the men more than the

377
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women who did the work, with
the exception of Ariana and a couple other

378
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women, Yeah, I guess I
would say, actually, more broadly that

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like the style of really bombastic populist
politics that dominated the last several years is

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like very like specifically about masculinity.
Like it's not just incidentally about that.

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It is this sort of jaw jutting, chest thumping, sort of wife adoring

382
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at your side style of politics that
all over the world is led by a

383
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certain kind of guy. And who
were the end a television host to sort

384
00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:45.079
of go along with And I want
to I mean, I don't know,

385
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I hope that will change. There's
also neuroscience that shows that style of communication

386
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connects well with the male brain and
not with a female brain. So maybe

387
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maybe all of this is going to
shift. So tell us about semaphore.

388
00:25:59.079 --> 00:26:00.119
You told us a little bit,
But what is it aim to do,

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00:26:00.400 --> 00:26:04.279
why is it different? And what
lessons from new and old media did you

390
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learn that you're going to put to
work there. So, I mean,

391
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our sort of horror goals to make
journals and really transparent, To both have

392
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the journalists themselves front and center.
You know who you're hearing from, you

393
00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:18.839
know what their facts they've gathered are, you know what their opinions are,

394
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and they're going to and then and
then also to curate and distill the best

395
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of everything else that's out there and
have them bring into the story in a

396
00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:30.920
very literal sense, like here is
a great piece that disagrees with my opinion,

397
00:26:30.240 --> 00:26:33.200
here's other important, notable stuff to
read. And our stories are kind

398
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of structured to do that. That
runs through all our coverage. And then

399
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the third pieces is that we really
are kind of born globally and see a

400
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world where both the stories are very
global. If you want to think about

401
00:26:45.640 --> 00:26:48.799
social the stuff we've been talking about
the rise of the rights social media,

402
00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:52.960
you kind of have to understand these
as global stories. They're not primarily local

403
00:26:53.079 --> 00:26:56.960
or American story, and so we
launched in the US and in Sub Saharan

404
00:26:56.000 --> 00:27:00.400
Africa, and have you know,
big aspirations of going elsewhere. I think

405
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one of the big lessons I learned
from the previous era was not betting off

406
00:27:03.920 --> 00:27:07.960
more than you can chew all of
punts. And so we're proceeding fairly cautiously.

407
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Well, you are also launching a
book tour at the same time you're

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00:27:10.759 --> 00:27:15.240
juggling a newsroom. So I am
not proceeding personally that cautiously. I know

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how busy that makes you. Well, Thank you Ben for your time and

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00:27:19.960 --> 00:27:22.759
for your thoughts on the media.
I think it's really helpful for the audience

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00:27:22.759 --> 00:27:26.240
to get your perspective. You've been
there at the creation of so much.

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00:27:26.319 --> 00:27:29.240
Thank you, Jessica. It's so
great to see. He is a co

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00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:33.599
founder of Semma for an author of
the new book Traffic Genius, Rivalry Delusion

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00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:36.799
in the Billion Dollar Race to Go
Viral. It is on sale now.

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00:27:36.880 --> 00:27:41.720
Go get your copy. Thanks for
listening today. If you liked what you

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00:27:41.839 --> 00:27:47.720
heard, please subscribe or follow this
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00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:52.039
can follow me at Jessica Yellen on
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