WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.080 --> 00:00:05.679 How'd you like to listen to dot NetRocks with no ads? Easy? Become 2 00:00:05.679 --> 00:00:09.839 a patron for just five dollars a month. You get access to a private 3 00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:14.279 RSS feed where all the shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month, 4 00:00:14.279 --> 00:00:18.640 we'll get you that and a special dot net Rocks patron mug. Sign up 5 00:00:18.640 --> 00:00:35.359 now at Patreon dot dot NetRocks dot com. Hey, welcome back to dot 6 00:00:35.439 --> 00:00:40.000 net rocks. I'm Carl Franklin, Amergard Campbell, and you probably know who 7 00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:42.560 we are if you've been listening to the show as long as we've been making 8 00:00:42.560 --> 00:00:44.920 them. Hey, if it's your first one, welcome, Yeah, where 9 00:00:44.960 --> 00:00:47.759 you've been? We've done eighteen hundred and something of it? Where Were you? 10 00:00:50.399 --> 00:00:54.159 Episode eighteen hundred and eighty nine? Can you believe it? There you 11 00:00:54.200 --> 00:00:58.039 go? And I love listening to podcasts that started like in the two thousands 12 00:00:58.039 --> 00:01:00.359 and brag about how long they've been doing podcast a. Yeah, we don't 13 00:01:00.359 --> 00:01:03.719 do that, right, we don't. We really don't. We just go 14 00:01:03.799 --> 00:01:07.120 to work and talk to people. But we were talking the other day about 15 00:01:07.120 --> 00:01:10.680 it. I think we may be the longest continuous running podcast in the world. 16 00:01:10.760 --> 00:01:12.599 Now we may be. Yeah, yeah, it might be true. 17 00:01:12.959 --> 00:01:19.159 Well that's uh yeah, I know we got that going for us. Or 18 00:01:19.200 --> 00:01:25.560 if you're in Mexico, it's fifty five pisos. Don't rub it in anymore 19 00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:29.920 possibly than you possibly can. My friend Richard's in Mexico. Yep, two 20 00:01:29.959 --> 00:01:33.879 weeks he's making us feel cold. Yeah, you guys are having weather. 21 00:01:34.879 --> 00:01:38.480 Although weather in Vancouver. I don't want to just talk about the weather. 22 00:01:38.560 --> 00:01:44.400 But man, yesterday was the first day in Connecticut here where we could actually 23 00:01:44.480 --> 00:01:47.680 go out on the back deck at night. It was sixty two degrees fahrenheit. 24 00:01:47.799 --> 00:01:49.480 Oh good, so broke. That's good. I'm glad. Yeah, 25 00:01:49.680 --> 00:01:56.840 he had snow that turned the rain in Vancouver and we're like, hah, 26 00:01:57.280 --> 00:01:59.840 well, Magnus Martinsen is here. We're going to talk to him in a 27 00:01:59.840 --> 00:02:02.560 minit and Magnus, if you want to jump in on this story that I 28 00:02:02.560 --> 00:02:13.800 have for better know framework feel free. Let's roll the crazy music. A 29 00:02:14.120 --> 00:02:15.639 man, what do you got? Okay? So you know, I do 30 00:02:15.719 --> 00:02:21.840 this show called Security this week with Patrick Hines and Duane Flotten, So I'm 31 00:02:21.879 --> 00:02:27.280 aware. I'm more aware now of the stories that come across my desk about 32 00:02:27.599 --> 00:02:31.840 security, and AI is one of them. Because everybody's worried about AI taking 33 00:02:31.840 --> 00:02:36.479 over the world, of course. So this is an article from PC magazine 34 00:02:36.800 --> 00:02:42.919 and the headline is new malware worm can poison chat, GPT and Gemini powered 35 00:02:42.960 --> 00:02:47.159 assistants. Generative AI models aren't immune to viruses. A new worm can target 36 00:02:47.199 --> 00:02:53.360 AI powered assistance and break some of Gemini and chat GPT security features. Research 37 00:02:53.400 --> 00:03:00.639 reveals, well, they're pointing to an article in Wired and this this is 38 00:03:00.680 --> 00:03:06.599 a really irresponsible article. I don't know what you thought, Richard when you're 39 00:03:06.599 --> 00:03:08.560 written, No, that's exactly what I thought. And I was going to 40 00:03:08.560 --> 00:03:10.599 be annoyed with you for even bringing it up. But if you want to 41 00:03:10.599 --> 00:03:14.639 come at the fact that there's some irresponsible reporting coming on, I'm glad, 42 00:03:14.960 --> 00:03:17.879 yeah, because this is pretty irresponsible at reporting. So the article from Wired 43 00:03:19.039 --> 00:03:22.919 is here, come the AI worms. Security researchers created an AI worm in 44 00:03:22.960 --> 00:03:29.319 a test environment and that can automatically spread between generative AI agents, potentially stealing 45 00:03:29.360 --> 00:03:32.599 data and sending spam emails along the way. And okay, this is a 46 00:03:32.680 --> 00:03:38.000 lab experiment right in a controlled environment. And PC magazine is like, hey, 47 00:03:38.199 --> 00:03:44.680 guess what you're don't use chut, GPT and Gemini because you get this 48 00:03:44.759 --> 00:03:49.159 worm and you're screwed. Yeah it's no worm, and yeah there is and 49 00:03:49.639 --> 00:03:53.240 Wired is a little more reasoned about that. And actually the piece underneath this, 50 00:03:53.439 --> 00:03:55.639 which is you know, from a set of researchers, is better still 51 00:03:55.680 --> 00:03:59.639 because right, really what they're talking about is we do need to be prepared, 52 00:03:59.759 --> 00:04:01.759 Sure we do. Yeah, I mean the most important part to me 53 00:04:02.039 --> 00:04:08.080 was the fact that it spanned open Ai and Gemini and Lama. Yeah, 54 00:04:08.120 --> 00:04:13.520 because that's Facebook, because it shows this is inherent to lllm's right, nothing 55 00:04:13.560 --> 00:04:16.879 to do with any particular model, right, And basically, you know, 56 00:04:16.920 --> 00:04:21.399 they they gave it a what do they do? They gave it a prompt 57 00:04:21.480 --> 00:04:27.720 that allowed it to they've been basically jail broke it, right, And well, 58 00:04:27.800 --> 00:04:30.079 yeahs and jail break is one thing, but the bigger thing here was 59 00:04:30.120 --> 00:04:34.439 the recursion engine to have it generate an output that then it then needs to 60 00:04:34.439 --> 00:04:38.879 immediately respond to. Yeah, you know, the best answer I have to 61 00:04:38.920 --> 00:04:44.560 that is don't do that. Don't do that exactly. So it's it's like 62 00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:47.480 fud right, it's a fun machine. So if you if you're on your 63 00:04:47.720 --> 00:04:53.079 chat rept channel and you've logged in and you're authenticated and you're having a nice 64 00:04:53.079 --> 00:04:56.519 little conversation with chat chept. You don't have to worry about any of this, 65 00:04:57.160 --> 00:05:00.399 right, Yeah, No, I think they're thinking about a future where, 66 00:05:00.959 --> 00:05:03.040 you know, the thing they also promise us with with the Amazon device 67 00:05:03.079 --> 00:05:06.040 which I won't see the name of, just enough ruin people's day, where 68 00:05:06.040 --> 00:05:10.399 you're supposed to be done with that joke. Yes, automatically, you know, 69 00:05:10.600 --> 00:05:14.279 just order me more laundry soap. Now you're imagining this agent doing that, 70 00:05:14.319 --> 00:05:18.560 and could that if it has full authority to go make the order and 71 00:05:18.600 --> 00:05:24.000 complete the sale, you have a risk of exploitation. That's true, whether 72 00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:28.040 it's an LM or in there or not. Yeah, they And it comes 73 00:05:28.079 --> 00:05:31.600 back to our least privilege argument that we've been having about computing ever since the 74 00:05:31.639 --> 00:05:35.920 dawn of computers. Well, and having some gates around Okay, if you're 75 00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:39.839 going to write emails on my behalf, should I look at each one of 76 00:05:39.839 --> 00:05:43.279 them before they send? Or should rules of what you can send? Like, 77 00:05:43.920 --> 00:05:46.920 you know, you could set some parameters around that, but recursively generating 78 00:05:47.120 --> 00:05:53.360 code that then sends email. Yeah, all right, it's good that I 79 00:05:53.399 --> 00:05:57.360 can fix that. That's ten minutes. There we go. Yep, don't 80 00:05:57.360 --> 00:06:03.120 do that's all right. Well I wanted to. I wanted to bring that 81 00:06:03.199 --> 00:06:06.240 up. Agreement on this one. Yeah, we are in violent agreement and 82 00:06:06.279 --> 00:06:10.800 it's a good laugh. But you know, sometimes we need to put these 83 00:06:10.839 --> 00:06:14.160 things in context. And you know that's why you listen. And I want 84 00:06:14.160 --> 00:06:15.839 to believe the Cornell guys were working in faith. It's like, hey, 85 00:06:16.120 --> 00:06:20.680 is there an exploit risk here just to help lead folks into we should deal 86 00:06:20.720 --> 00:06:25.319 with this before it becomes a problem. But I'm on all the rest. 87 00:06:26.240 --> 00:06:29.120 Indeed, Well, I don't know, magnety, have anything you want to 88 00:06:29.120 --> 00:06:30.839 add to that. I mean, mister cloud guy. I was just listening 89 00:06:30.879 --> 00:06:36.399 to this and we've heard this time and again that that it seems like sometimes 90 00:06:36.480 --> 00:06:44.399 the the the journalist or whatever we should call this person is so desperate to 91 00:06:44.439 --> 00:06:47.360 do something, but they're they're going to write just anything, whether it's you 92 00:06:47.399 --> 00:06:50.560 know, remotely true or not, and and they, like you said, 93 00:06:50.560 --> 00:06:56.959 it's completely irresponsible and that I loathe it. It's not it's not journalism. 94 00:06:57.000 --> 00:06:59.680 I don't know what that is. Yeah, and if anybody would like cite 95 00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:02.639 this article on a podcast or something, and then nobody would do that, 96 00:07:02.759 --> 00:07:05.000 you know, put that in the links. Who would do that? That's 97 00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:14.839 irresponsible, that's irresponsible clickbait. Just it reprehensible. All right, Well that's 98 00:07:15.240 --> 00:07:17.800 the fun, fun way to start the show today. Who's talking to us? 99 00:07:17.920 --> 00:07:20.959 Richard? Hey, I grabbed a comment off of show eighteen eighty one, 100 00:07:21.000 --> 00:07:24.439 so not that long ago. That's the one we did about dot net 101 00:07:24.439 --> 00:07:28.920 Aspire with David Fowler. Yeah, and the comment comes from codeputier otherwise known 102 00:07:28.920 --> 00:07:31.480 as Richard Rukima, one of our longtime listener and occasional guests. He's done, 103 00:07:31.560 --> 00:07:34.360 he lives in both worlds, and he said, I've enjoyed dot net 104 00:07:34.439 --> 00:07:36.480 rocks for over a decade. Yeah, like it's longer than that. I 105 00:07:36.560 --> 00:07:40.680 found emails from you from the aughts, my friend. Oh yeah. I 106 00:07:40.720 --> 00:07:43.399 can't put my finger on it, but this show really felt like this show 107 00:07:43.480 --> 00:07:46.160 is of old such great ton in the conversation with an internal resize that we 108 00:07:46.199 --> 00:07:51.360 all need so desperately, Like David hearing his perspective on Aspire was very inspirational 109 00:07:51.399 --> 00:07:54.720 as well as educational. And to be clear, this is not a diss 110 00:07:54.759 --> 00:07:58.680 of previous content, but this episode is a gold standard on wireless. Oh 111 00:07:58.720 --> 00:08:01.800 cool, And I was thinking about it of a. I know, we're 112 00:08:01.839 --> 00:08:03.519 talking to the guy who invented the technology. I mean, admittedly, David 113 00:08:03.560 --> 00:08:07.120 had a team around him and he's still trying to figure out what he's made. 114 00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:11.399 You know. I saw him at NBC Sydney and they were workshopping it 115 00:08:11.480 --> 00:08:15.439 and literally still trying to figure out how to describe it. So, you 116 00:08:15.439 --> 00:08:18.399 know, one of the things I like about that particular show is we were 117 00:08:18.439 --> 00:08:20.399 trying to understand what he was talking about, and he was trying to understand 118 00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:24.279 what he was doing. So there's this real wrestling match about I know you 119 00:08:24.439 --> 00:08:28.079 got something here, David, I just don't know how to describe it. 120 00:08:28.120 --> 00:08:33.120 Yeah. I thought it was a very fun show, definitely. And Richard, 121 00:08:33.159 --> 00:08:35.440 you know you already have a copy of Music co b. I goodest 122 00:08:35.480 --> 00:08:39.080 noticed about every other thing, but thank you so much for your comment, 123 00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:41.399 And if you'd like a copy of Music Coobe, I read a comment on 124 00:08:41.440 --> 00:08:43.120 the website at dot na Rocks dot com or on the facebooks. We publish 125 00:08:43.200 --> 00:08:46.159 every show there, and if you comment there and I read on the show, 126 00:08:46.360 --> 00:08:48.559 we'll send you a copy of Music COBA. And you can follow us 127 00:08:48.600 --> 00:08:50.799 on Twitter or x or whatever the heck you want to call it, but 128 00:08:50.360 --> 00:08:54.080 all the cool kids are hanging out. I'm Masterdon, so follow us there. 129 00:08:54.240 --> 00:08:58.240 I'm at Carl Franklin at tech hub dot social, and I'm Rich Campbell 130 00:08:58.279 --> 00:09:01.480 at McDon social. And you can find all the other ways. You can 131 00:09:01.519 --> 00:09:05.840 reach me at Carl Franklin dot com. But yeah, send us a two 132 00:09:05.279 --> 00:09:09.399 Rudy too too. Okay, let's bring on Magnus. I'm going to formally 133 00:09:09.440 --> 00:09:15.720 introduce him with his latest bio. Magnus Martinsen is an entrepreneur, a Microsoft 134 00:09:15.840 --> 00:09:20.759 Most Valuable Professional for Azure since the start of the cloud, and a Microsoft 135 00:09:20.799 --> 00:09:24.600 Regional Director. He's a consultant, architect, product development lead, and he 136 00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:31.039 runs his own company, Loftysoft. As an international speaker, Magnus travels the 137 00:09:31.039 --> 00:09:35.399 world to teach, network, learn and experience. His passions include connecting with 138 00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:41.120 audiences and organizing conferences such as Cloudburst and Global Azure. He is, of 139 00:09:41.159 --> 00:09:45.879 course, also very much into good food, wine and great company. Except 140 00:09:45.919 --> 00:09:48.639 for that crap that he tried to make us drink at Ted Neward's party, 141 00:09:48.639 --> 00:09:54.080 I would not recommend taking that tomping. That was my editorial. Tompy all 142 00:09:54.320 --> 00:09:56.240 is mind sharing. So when you see him at a conference, come over 143 00:09:56.279 --> 00:10:01.039 and say hi, welcome back, Magnus. Well, thank you, thank 144 00:10:01.039 --> 00:10:03.759 you very much. Good good of you to have me. What the hell 145 00:10:03.879 --> 00:10:07.000 was that thing that you gave us at Ted Newart's party back in the day. 146 00:10:07.480 --> 00:10:11.360 Uh, it's it's well, it's based on the wormwood, so it's 147 00:10:11.399 --> 00:10:18.480 it's very very bitter and straight. It was the most vile stuff I've ever 148 00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:24.120 It tasted like bile because I've tasted that coming up out of my liver before 149 00:10:24.159 --> 00:10:28.879 when I was a drunken teenager say some fairly horrible things. I remember a 150 00:10:28.919 --> 00:10:35.759 particular tin of fish, but that's that's a different thing. Yeah, you 151 00:10:35.759 --> 00:10:41.279 don't inside, you'll clear a neighborhood. But here's the thing. It was 152 00:10:41.399 --> 00:10:45.840 just like, try this. All the real men in Sweden drink this. 153 00:10:46.440 --> 00:10:48.440 It's good for you, absolutely, and we do. And we do this 154 00:10:50.399 --> 00:10:52.879 when when they when they are hunting in the in the lodge somewhere and they 155 00:10:54.000 --> 00:10:58.279 put this this twig of the wormwood in the bottle and then leave it there. 156 00:10:58.399 --> 00:11:01.519 So like the first the first three shots are pretty okay, but the 157 00:11:01.919 --> 00:11:11.000 bottom line is like whoa da the states I think you got? I think 158 00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:13.399 you got from the top of a bottle car and you're just so, You're 159 00:11:13.480 --> 00:11:18.720 just a week So I guess I wasn't meant for the manliness of the Swedish 160 00:11:18.759 --> 00:11:24.000 liquor clouds. What can I tell you? Yeah? So what are you 161 00:11:24.039 --> 00:11:26.200 thinking about these days? Magnus? Oh? Wow, I'm thinking about a 162 00:11:26.200 --> 00:11:31.480 lot of things. Top of mind in the community world is global Azure of 163 00:11:31.480 --> 00:11:35.039 course is coming up again. But overall I'm working and I'm working with with 164 00:11:35.240 --> 00:11:43.440 enterprises of various various kinds. So really helping large organizations fully adopt the cloud 165 00:11:43.879 --> 00:11:48.600 is a huge journey for for many of them. The biggest challenge is that 166 00:11:48.639 --> 00:11:54.360 they don't have enough experienced people on team on on on in their teams, 167 00:11:54.960 --> 00:12:01.039 so they're kind of struggling to really really fully get you get all of those 168 00:12:01.080 --> 00:12:03.840 promises that we hear about the cloud. You know, it's pay per use, 169 00:12:03.919 --> 00:12:07.120 it's automation, it's agile, it's quick, and it's all those things. 170 00:12:07.519 --> 00:12:11.879 But they can't really reach it because it's hard when you don't have enough 171 00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:13.840 folks that can help you along the way. So that's what I do. 172 00:12:13.919 --> 00:12:18.559 I help them make asure better. How much of this is a dev problem 173 00:12:18.639 --> 00:12:24.159 versus an assisted problem? Wow, dude, there is a dev problem in 174 00:12:24.200 --> 00:12:28.039 there, but there is a huge governance problem in there because you just don't 175 00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:31.879 know what it is that you're supposed to do. You can't even ask the 176 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:35.120 questions. So that's a challenge, right. So I work with teams of 177 00:12:35.159 --> 00:12:39.000 people, scores of people who have twenty thirty years of experience. They're really 178 00:12:39.039 --> 00:12:43.039 good engineers of all kinds, and they're really good at what they do, 179 00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:46.840 except they don't have mileage in the cloud, so they don't know which questions 180 00:12:46.879 --> 00:12:50.039 to ask. I mean, if somebody tells you have twenty years of experience 181 00:12:50.039 --> 00:12:54.320 in the cloud, they're lying. Not in the cloud. No, not 182 00:12:54.440 --> 00:12:58.440 in the cloud, they are it professionals. Yeah. To illustrate not knowing 183 00:12:58.480 --> 00:13:01.759 what to do, I'm going to in a new acronym FO D A R 184 00:13:03.320 --> 00:13:09.559 FODD are fear of deleting Azure resources because you know you have hundreds and hundreds 185 00:13:09.600 --> 00:13:13.000 of resources. You just create one website you have You've created resources you may 186 00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:16.879 not even know about, and you come back later and you're like, hmm, 187 00:13:16.039 --> 00:13:20.519 what's this? Should I delete it? That is an excellent, excellent 188 00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:24.039 acronym. It's costing me a lot of money. We should you should? 189 00:13:24.120 --> 00:13:28.879 You should trademark, that acronym. It's it's amazing, that's exactly. That's 190 00:13:28.960 --> 00:13:31.360 exactly a huge problem with many of my customers is that they don't know. 191 00:13:31.679 --> 00:13:37.320 And so they a pretty recent study indicated by you know, self engaging. 192 00:13:37.519 --> 00:13:43.480 They asked people who consume another cloud roughly how much how much of your cloud 193 00:13:43.559 --> 00:13:48.559 spend would you say is waste? And the self estimation was at about a 194 00:13:48.639 --> 00:13:50.399 third. So you got, you gotta, you got, you got a 195 00:13:50.399 --> 00:13:54.919 million dollar you know. Ea with Microsoft three hundred and thirty three thousand, 196 00:13:54.919 --> 00:13:58.799 it's just burning on the lawn. And that's exactly it, Carl, that 197 00:14:00.039 --> 00:14:03.919 they don't know exactly what they have, and they do not use the automation, 198 00:14:03.159 --> 00:14:05.080 and they do not use the you know, the things that you should 199 00:14:05.080 --> 00:14:09.519 the things that most most people know that you should be doing, except they're 200 00:14:09.519 --> 00:14:11.559 not doing it. And when they're not, yeah, I've found you know, 201 00:14:11.960 --> 00:14:16.480 oh look look at this. I found this this cluster of vms here. 202 00:14:16.480 --> 00:14:18.360 What are you using that for? Oh? Those five vms? Oh 203 00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:22.159 I don't know, Wow, do we use them? I didn't. I 204 00:14:22.159 --> 00:14:24.600 didn't. I didn't even know. I didn't even know three months ago, 205 00:14:24.679 --> 00:14:28.320 right, So that's like, you know, ten months of compute just burning 206 00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:31.240 for not real Have you ever you should? You could write a whole you 207 00:14:31.240 --> 00:14:35.679 could do a whole class on understanding and itemized Azure bill. Have you ever 208 00:14:35.759 --> 00:14:41.000 looked at one of these things? Yeah, by the way, this week 209 00:14:41.080 --> 00:14:45.399 because they keep changing the frickin thing too. Yeah, fair enough. The 210 00:14:45.399 --> 00:14:48.559 point is that you never should get to that position in the first place, 211 00:14:48.559 --> 00:14:52.799 so you should do it right. And and and companies again, they're coming 212 00:14:52.840 --> 00:14:56.519 from a world of vms and and let's order. Order a VM means by 213 00:14:56.600 --> 00:15:01.960 hardware, and that's where they're coming from. And there's nothing wrong with that, 214 00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:03.559 except that's not what you're supposed to be doing in the cloud. And 215 00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:07.679 so they transposed that thing to the cloud and it just doesn't work. I 216 00:15:07.759 --> 00:15:11.759 had a nerving experience in Azure the other day. I went to start a 217 00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:16.399 VM that I use for, you know, video recording, and it said, 218 00:15:16.759 --> 00:15:22.440 can't start this VM because there aren't enough resources in this region to support 219 00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:28.799 it. And I'm thinking, aren't enough resources? You're Azure. You've got 220 00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:33.200 you know, underwater data centers all over the world or whatever you have, 221 00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:37.559 you know, and you can't change it. So I had to just wait. 222 00:15:37.960 --> 00:15:41.240 Well, the cloud is infinite for infinite for you, but it's not 223 00:15:41.360 --> 00:15:48.000 infinite for Microsoft. Sure, I'm throwing the sissemin hat on this thing because 224 00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:50.320 I do this conversation on run as all the time. And one of the 225 00:15:50.440 --> 00:15:54.759 essential issues has been, and this is you know, big in the pandemic, 226 00:15:54.879 --> 00:15:58.840 was we did this fast migration to the cloud. And when you architect 227 00:15:58.879 --> 00:16:03.799 an app on pre or architect the resources for an app on prem you architecture 228 00:16:03.840 --> 00:16:07.480 for peak. Right, if the most we're ever going to consume, that's 229 00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:11.360 what I'll buy, even though it'll represent one percent of the utilization. But 230 00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:15.399 that one percent is probably the most profitable point. I don't want it out. 231 00:16:15.600 --> 00:16:18.799 And if you architect that way and throw it into Azure, you're spending 232 00:16:18.840 --> 00:16:22.919 a ton of money on wasted resources. Yeah, absolutely right, and that's 233 00:16:22.960 --> 00:16:26.480 a terrible way to do it. So the migration wizards that Microsoft have been 234 00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:30.519 working on for quite some time now, they're getting better and better, more 235 00:16:30.519 --> 00:16:33.360 and more sophisticated. They actually doing a fair job. So long as you 236 00:16:33.759 --> 00:16:37.519 deploy a bunch of agents inside of your network. First, you let them 237 00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:40.360 be there for a while and listen to the traffic and see what's what, 238 00:16:41.200 --> 00:16:45.480 and then you process that data and then you can write size as they call 239 00:16:45.519 --> 00:16:48.720 it when you migrate to the cloud, and sayf for you, I want 240 00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:52.039 to use this size of thing instead in the cloud because that just makes more 241 00:16:52.080 --> 00:16:56.799 sense. And then you just right sizing is a way of making sure that 242 00:16:56.840 --> 00:17:00.440 you just don't move it like one to one on to the cloud and then 243 00:17:00.639 --> 00:17:03.599 you know, waste a lot of money. And I love that idea that 244 00:17:03.640 --> 00:17:07.240 hey, you know, we don't know any secrets here, we need to 245 00:17:07.279 --> 00:17:10.759 watch you. Yeah, so load up these tools and let them run. 246 00:17:10.759 --> 00:17:15.000 And again, if you're a dev probably listening to this show, you have 247 00:17:15.160 --> 00:17:18.319 to ask it, hey, let's deploy these agents into the network, which 248 00:17:18.359 --> 00:17:22.559 is not going to make that person happy, Like true, that's going to 249 00:17:22.599 --> 00:17:26.039 be a battle, but the alternative is worse. Arguably, we had to 250 00:17:26.079 --> 00:17:33.279 do a security review and things like that before that was allowed in the network 251 00:17:33.279 --> 00:17:37.039 of a large customer that a public sector again that I'm working with right now. 252 00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:40.640 And so after having done all of that, all the due diligence and 253 00:17:40.799 --> 00:17:44.440 figured out that this is not going to steal our information or anything, then 254 00:17:44.599 --> 00:17:49.039 then that was allowed. And the the we're migrating in the size of like 255 00:17:49.480 --> 00:17:55.039 eight nine hundred VMS is the first migration step. Just moved move the things 256 00:17:55.039 --> 00:17:56.559 first, and that's not the biggest thing we've ever seen, but it's it's 257 00:17:56.599 --> 00:18:02.000 sizable for sure, and move that to the cloud to begin with. And 258 00:18:02.119 --> 00:18:07.039 that's kind of when the work starts because the the Migration Wizard is basically automation. 259 00:18:07.400 --> 00:18:10.480 So now we have moved. Now, we have moved them. Now 260 00:18:10.480 --> 00:18:12.480 we have lots of service running in the cloud. Now is where the work 261 00:18:12.519 --> 00:18:18.240 actually begins to to migrate some of that those workloads off the machines that they're 262 00:18:18.319 --> 00:18:21.839 running on. They could be like just hey, we're running on a we're 263 00:18:21.880 --> 00:18:25.640 running a sequel server on a VM. Well, dude, why you could 264 00:18:25.720 --> 00:18:30.440 use database database service same thing except no VM that do you know? The 265 00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:34.680 problems aren't always our fault, right one of the but you know, usually 266 00:18:34.759 --> 00:18:40.359 there's something that we can do to remedy the situation. But one of the 267 00:18:40.400 --> 00:18:45.720 problems that I had recently was that Microsoft was changing the IP address of a 268 00:18:45.759 --> 00:18:49.079 web app on me without telling me they were going to do that. Had 269 00:18:49.119 --> 00:18:52.680 no notification except that, you know, somebody tweeted me and said, hey, 270 00:18:52.720 --> 00:18:57.279 this site's down. And when you go and look oh that IP address, 271 00:18:57.319 --> 00:19:03.440 the A record is different, and so yeah, yeah, I guess 272 00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:07.200 I have to fix it in DNS. I wrote a little I wrote a 273 00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:11.119 little PowerShell app. I know that I can fix that in another way. 274 00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:15.400 But in the meantime, I have this PowerShell app that I wrote that runs 275 00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:22.960 against dot net rocks and other websites that I have and tests for content that 276 00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:26.359 I know is going to be there. Yeah. So that's running once an 277 00:19:26.359 --> 00:19:30.839 hour and just in a script on my machine. Yeah, well that works. 278 00:19:32.680 --> 00:19:37.039 It's emails the way if dot rocks is down. Yeah, that's one 279 00:19:37.079 --> 00:19:40.640 way. I'm sure there are other ways, but you know, you use 280 00:19:40.680 --> 00:19:44.279 the tools that you know before you dive into the tools that you don't know. 281 00:19:44.799 --> 00:19:48.359 Yeah. Well, nowadays we have enterprises and things that are ready to 282 00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:52.400 move to the cloud. Again. It's it's weird for someone like me who 283 00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:56.000 has been in the cloud since the very beginning. Means I have well, 284 00:19:56.200 --> 00:19:59.000 not the twenty years of experience that's going to be hard, but at least 285 00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:03.599 the plug ten plus now right, and now I'm talking to companies that have 286 00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:08.200 never touched it because you know, reasons, because compliancy, because of you 287 00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:11.359 know, it's public sector and it's been difficult and we haven't been able to 288 00:20:11.400 --> 00:20:18.480 move right and now they're getting there and they're moving into this huge enterprise grade 289 00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:25.880 platform which has everything and everything extra. When we started using Windows Azure in 290 00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:27.920 the beginning as it was called Windows, it's called Windows in the beginning, 291 00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:32.079 right, it had like five services. That was that was it. That 292 00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:34.359 was that was all you could do. No VM, no VM. Even 293 00:20:34.519 --> 00:20:38.400 you only had a huge post of service. Was the only thing you could 294 00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:44.880 do. So it's it's really interesting to see these people who are coming into 295 00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:48.799 this now and haven't been part of the journey. It's harder for them, 296 00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:51.279 I think. I mean, there's an upside to being in early that you 297 00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:55.039 got to see the pieces built, although you also went through all the convulsions 298 00:20:55.480 --> 00:20:59.440 of the sure getting because they made new ones. Yeah, at the same 299 00:20:59.480 --> 00:21:03.079 time, like in New now with stuff like those Migration wizard things seem to 300 00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:07.200 make life easier. But you ever look at the portal, like that's a 301 00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:11.200 lot of stuff. There's a lot of stuff, all the stuff. It 302 00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:17.279 is overwhelming and I'm so surprised at you know, the questions that you get, 303 00:21:17.480 --> 00:21:21.960 the comments that you get, because obviously I've lost that perspective. I 304 00:21:22.039 --> 00:21:25.000 know how the sausage was made, how the cookies were baked. I know 305 00:21:25.079 --> 00:21:29.400 all of it. I know why Azure Monitor is working the way it does. 306 00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:33.200 You know how the wormwood was mixed, my friend, I know exactly 307 00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:37.880 how the wormwood was mixed, and it was strong. It was very very 308 00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:42.880 strong. Yeah. Yeah, it's good to be able to lead them through 309 00:21:42.920 --> 00:21:47.680 that, but it definitely I feels like it's a better time now. There 310 00:21:47.759 --> 00:21:53.039 is a whole conversation going on around repatriation of I'm take people taking stuff back 311 00:21:53.079 --> 00:21:56.960 out of the class. Yeah, I've heard a couple of cases of that, 312 00:21:57.039 --> 00:22:02.079 and some some kind of notable that that somebody like wrote up a post 313 00:22:02.119 --> 00:22:03.599 about it then said hey, we were going to use the cloud, and 314 00:22:03.640 --> 00:22:07.799 we started doing this and then we just realized how expensive and crazy it was 315 00:22:07.839 --> 00:22:11.119 and we just moved away again. Like Okay. When I look at that, 316 00:22:11.160 --> 00:22:14.599 I go like, okay, so it's my specific expertise to help companies 317 00:22:14.680 --> 00:22:18.759 just make the cloud better. Okay, So I'm looking at what you're doing, 318 00:22:18.200 --> 00:22:22.799 and I just realized that you did not approach this in a responsible way. 319 00:22:23.160 --> 00:22:27.000 You did not approach it in a learning way. You didn't have the 320 00:22:27.559 --> 00:22:33.440 people to do this, and now you're like finding that it's not pay per 321 00:22:33.599 --> 00:22:37.000 use, it's not you know, optimized, and it's costing you too much, 322 00:22:37.039 --> 00:22:38.680 and it's not secure and all the things that you're saying that it's not 323 00:22:40.200 --> 00:22:42.160 it's because you didn't do your homework. And now you're backing out. Now 324 00:22:42.160 --> 00:22:48.599 you're backing out and blaming the cloud. Hm, that's not fair. So, 325 00:22:48.680 --> 00:22:52.559 I mean, I was trying to work through reasonable that seemed to me 326 00:22:52.599 --> 00:22:55.480 seems the most likely scenario. You shipped a bunch of vms up in the 327 00:22:55.480 --> 00:23:00.119 cloud. Oddly enough, they cost money, no surprise. Yeah, now 328 00:23:00.119 --> 00:23:03.240 you're going to ship a bunch of vms back out of the cloud again where 329 00:23:03.400 --> 00:23:07.319 moving up to services and all those other options. You know, you could 330 00:23:07.400 --> 00:23:11.039 have tuned this better, But I'm trying to find better scenarios. I mean, 331 00:23:11.160 --> 00:23:14.039 one would argue, if you're running a twenty four to seven knock, 332 00:23:14.079 --> 00:23:18.119 if you already have around the clock SIS submits and so forth, your more 333 00:23:18.200 --> 00:23:21.680 or less could be operating your own clouds, So why are you using somebody 334 00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:27.680 else's That the rest of the arguments become so much harder, Like I'm just 335 00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:30.279 trying to figure out what the cloud isn't good at that you could point it 336 00:23:30.319 --> 00:23:33.519 a service and go, yeah, maybe that's better to keep on premp. 337 00:23:33.799 --> 00:23:37.039 I don't know. I mean, if it's the only thing I come down 338 00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:40.920 to is if the service has, you know, very very strict restrictions on 339 00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:45.039 data governance and where you can where you can host it, and where you 340 00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:48.279 can run into But that's a feature, that's a yeah, And I feel 341 00:23:48.319 --> 00:23:52.599 like Microsoft is done a huge amount of work on that, Like if all 342 00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:55.880 you got to do is search, when it comes down to I need to 343 00:23:55.880 --> 00:24:00.039 comply with this set of regulations for this country. They have ratifications in place 344 00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:04.359 for it. Yeah, yes, and they support a lot of the services 345 00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:08.000 today support such things as bring your own key and so forth. Right, 346 00:24:08.039 --> 00:24:12.519 so you have your own, your very own key that that no one can 347 00:24:12.640 --> 00:24:18.279 decrypt, not even Microsoft. So it's encrypted with your key except as your 348 00:24:18.279 --> 00:24:22.440 secretary because he left it on your desktop. Oh yeah, post posted underneath 349 00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:26.079 the desk exactly. And there and therein lies the bigger joke, which is 350 00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:32.200 arguably like I have seen a small third party data center get rated by the 351 00:24:32.279 --> 00:24:37.519 FBI because of one of their customers, and they took and the FBI took 352 00:24:37.720 --> 00:24:41.680 all of the racks, and so I had that customer that was in there 353 00:24:41.039 --> 00:24:45.960 and their machine. They would get their machines back two years later, but 354 00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:48.680 in the meantime they're at the corridor. You know, the judge didn't understand 355 00:24:48.680 --> 00:24:52.720 the ratifications what they were doing. They cleared that building. You can't do 356 00:24:52.759 --> 00:25:00.720 that with the cloud data center. A nobody's got enough for cliffs like getting 357 00:25:00.759 --> 00:25:03.119 access to that data center. Are those machines going to be even worth anything 358 00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:06.559 in two years? That's another question. That was the thing. It was 359 00:25:07.519 --> 00:25:10.440 largely destructed. It was with the destruction of the business that we couldn't replace 360 00:25:10.440 --> 00:25:14.440 them. It's crazy because of one customer. Wow, yeah, and yeah 361 00:25:15.160 --> 00:25:17.559 terrible. So you know that in that sense, I said, you know, 362 00:25:17.599 --> 00:25:21.079 the upside to the cloud is go ahead, knock yourself out, like 363 00:25:21.160 --> 00:25:25.559 it's just at that scale, that's not possible. Great, agreed, But 364 00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:32.160 we were we were there before that, before such time where companies were legitimately 365 00:25:32.480 --> 00:25:34.799 legitimately they were saying that we can't go to the cloud because it's not secure 366 00:25:34.920 --> 00:25:37.839 enough. We don't know that it's secure, we haven't seen the evidence of 367 00:25:37.880 --> 00:25:41.680 that. We also don't know that it's compliant. That was like a blocker, 368 00:25:41.720 --> 00:25:45.359 an adoption blocker in the early days. Nowadays people go to the cloud 369 00:25:45.400 --> 00:25:49.039 because it's more secure. Yeah, and nothing you ever do is going to 370 00:25:49.119 --> 00:25:52.680 change that, you know, and arguabily it always has been. It's just 371 00:25:52.720 --> 00:25:56.640 that now you can't deny it. Yeah, yeah, true, fair enough. 372 00:25:56.720 --> 00:26:00.480 Yeah, And we used to say that do you think that you're security 373 00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:04.319 team who actually goes to bed at night and works eight hours a day is 374 00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:10.920 more vigilant than you know, a team of hundreds of people that are watching 375 00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:15.759 what's going on behind the scenes and Azure twenty four to seven. It's just 376 00:26:15.799 --> 00:26:18.480 there's just no way. It's it's not possible. There's no way. And 377 00:26:18.519 --> 00:26:23.880 somebody was saying, it's funny. There was a networking company that was saying 378 00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:30.039 that, well, basically the slur that that you know, networking for Microsoft, 379 00:26:30.079 --> 00:26:32.559 well it's not the best product, it's not you know, I don't 380 00:26:32.599 --> 00:26:33.799 know that it's the most secure, and so forth. I was like, 381 00:26:34.119 --> 00:26:37.000 are you shitting me? You just pull that out of the air. You're 382 00:26:37.039 --> 00:26:41.880 talking about the company that probably has the most of network of anyone on the 383 00:26:41.960 --> 00:26:47.640 planet, with with like the best teams that do networking and networking security that 384 00:26:47.799 --> 00:26:52.319 even exists at all, and you're just you're just blurting out there that you 385 00:26:52.400 --> 00:26:56.599 think that their product is not good enough based on what dude? Yeah right, 386 00:26:56.160 --> 00:27:00.319 yeah, I can't wait to hear your analysis in detail. I please 387 00:27:00.359 --> 00:27:04.039 have it at my desk by nine o'clock tomorrow morning, exactly. Pass on 388 00:27:04.160 --> 00:27:10.880 stunt Kirk out. But it's a it is, without a doubt, an 389 00:27:10.920 --> 00:27:14.480 extremely hard problem. Yes, and gentlemen, we should stop at this moment 390 00:27:14.599 --> 00:27:21.319 for this very important message, and we're back. It's done in rocks. 391 00:27:21.319 --> 00:27:25.039 I'm Richard Campbell, let's Carl Franklin, and we're talking to our friend Mangus 392 00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:29.559 Martins and about it his work in the cloud, and we you mentioned it 393 00:27:29.599 --> 00:27:34.680 briefly at the top, but certainly the Global Azure move event is a thing 394 00:27:34.759 --> 00:27:37.440 coming up in about another month, right, it's in April, Yeah, 395 00:27:37.720 --> 00:27:44.920 April eighteen to through twenty. Is what's happening this time, And it's been 396 00:27:44.960 --> 00:27:48.039 going on for a while now. It's Global azer is a thing. Lot 397 00:27:48.200 --> 00:27:52.680 Lasher dot net is a thing that has been around for quite some time. 398 00:27:53.359 --> 00:28:00.200 And what it really is more than ten years, it's been twelve, so 399 00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:06.759 really what it is, it's I guess it's instigation on learning, instigation on 400 00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:11.039 a global scale. If you will, we just hang out together and run 401 00:28:11.079 --> 00:28:15.400 this event everyone at once, and everyone is. Any organizer of a community 402 00:28:15.400 --> 00:28:19.559 meet up anywhere who wants to learn about Ashure, they simply just register their 403 00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:25.119 event as well on the same site. And the idea is that they can 404 00:28:25.119 --> 00:28:29.920 then benefit and their attendees can then benefit from the shared sponsorships that we get, 405 00:28:29.960 --> 00:28:33.400 for example, from Microsoft. We get ASHU passes from Microsoft, and 406 00:28:33.480 --> 00:28:36.599 if they need some, they can get them through us. So we just 407 00:28:36.640 --> 00:28:40.799 do it all at the same time. Nice and it does speak too. 408 00:28:40.920 --> 00:28:45.720 I think a huge topic here, which is learning to right size the utilization 409 00:28:45.759 --> 00:28:49.440 of Azure to get out of the VM world and into the services world and 410 00:28:49.480 --> 00:28:55.000 into what it could be a platform piece like the rethinking of the way you 411 00:28:55.039 --> 00:28:59.759 provide services to your company. Absolutely right. We didn't even know what we 412 00:28:59.759 --> 00:29:03.359 were starting. When Global Azure did start. We had no idea what was 413 00:29:03.400 --> 00:29:07.599 going to happen or what we what we found. If you will, you 414 00:29:07.640 --> 00:29:11.839 know, they say that innovation is just taking two pre existing ideas and combining 415 00:29:11.920 --> 00:29:15.400 them in a new way that no one ever thought of yet. So I 416 00:29:15.400 --> 00:29:19.799 guess we did community and the Globe because we just said, hey, how 417 00:29:19.799 --> 00:29:22.759 about you guys do an event at the same time as we do, And 418 00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:26.319 then more and more people like, hey, you also want to join, 419 00:29:26.400 --> 00:29:30.440 and you and you, and I posted that thing internally at Microsoft for the 420 00:29:30.559 --> 00:29:33.680 MVPs, there is an alias called the for Azure MVPs. I posted it 421 00:29:33.680 --> 00:29:37.160 there. I said, Hey, a bunch of us are doing this community 422 00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:41.880 events on this one day, you want to join, and ca boom. 423 00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:47.599 It was like an understatement. I think it was like almost one hundred locations 424 00:29:47.680 --> 00:29:52.559 the first year we did it, so apparently we found a potential that nobody 425 00:29:52.640 --> 00:29:56.200 knew would be there. Yeah, that's kind of cool. There is noise. 426 00:29:56.240 --> 00:30:00.680 So how big is it now? Well, it took a huge bump 427 00:30:02.079 --> 00:30:07.640 during the pandemic of this section. Yeah, it's an important topic to cover. 428 00:30:07.839 --> 00:30:11.160 That community took a huge, you know, whack on the head, 429 00:30:11.200 --> 00:30:18.160 and a lot of people just stopped doing community and there weren't enough other people 430 00:30:18.200 --> 00:30:23.880 coming into doing community because you were simply not allowed to have meetups TOLT. 431 00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:29.559 Yeah. Yeah, but just before twenty nineteen was our largest year, and 432 00:30:29.960 --> 00:30:33.599 that year I think we were around three hundred and thirty six locations at the 433 00:30:33.599 --> 00:30:37.759 same time. Wow, which is huge. I don't know of any any 434 00:30:38.160 --> 00:30:44.160 larger community event than that. And and what's one thing that I find is 435 00:30:44.440 --> 00:30:48.400 amusing is if you would aggregate all the community events of the same kind that 436 00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:55.039 are called global something in you know, boot camp, there's there's AI, 437 00:30:55.200 --> 00:30:59.160 there's DevOps, there's plenty of them, even a couple coming out from Microsoft 438 00:30:59.160 --> 00:31:03.279 that are using the same naming standard. We were the first ones to ever 439 00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:08.200 do a global something boot Camp, Global Azure, Azure boot Camp as it 440 00:31:08.240 --> 00:31:12.359 were. Nowadays there's tons of them doing the same kind of thing. So 441 00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:18.200 I guess we showed to the world that it is possible to do community activism 442 00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:22.359 on a global scale, and now kind of everyone does that. Yeah, 443 00:31:22.359 --> 00:31:25.759 I'm thinking net comp which is very much around the world kind of thing. 444 00:31:25.880 --> 00:31:30.960 But I do think it came after the the Azure Global Yeah, well, 445 00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:33.119 it's it's fine a new idea though, I mean, no, you know, 446 00:31:33.319 --> 00:31:37.640 the Internet kind of encourages us to do that, you know, it 447 00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:41.759 really does. Well, you think about the original RDS in the nineties doing 448 00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:45.279 the simul past events right really before the Internet was even up for that, 449 00:31:45.279 --> 00:31:51.319 there were going to say accept no Internet. Yeah that was when we had 450 00:31:51.359 --> 00:31:56.400 regions and we directed something weird. Yeah yeah, those funny titles of art. 451 00:31:56.559 --> 00:32:02.880 Yeah yeah. I do think the interaction between the sissigmin and the DEV 452 00:32:04.079 --> 00:32:08.599 around right sizing resources here about you know that because on one hand, I 453 00:32:08.680 --> 00:32:14.039 know, as the sissidmin, Hey these vms are running all the time, 454 00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:16.359 but they're not actually busy, like how does this break apart? But you've 455 00:32:16.359 --> 00:32:21.200 got to interact with the dev to say, can you give me a measure 456 00:32:21.279 --> 00:32:24.079 to know when to dial something down and to dial it up for what we 457 00:32:24.079 --> 00:32:29.359 can move to a service. And so you're thinking, I think mostly about 458 00:32:29.440 --> 00:32:35.440 things such as you know, CPU or utilization or those kinds of things. 459 00:32:35.440 --> 00:32:38.359 What I even I even include a third role in this conversation normally, And 460 00:32:38.400 --> 00:32:42.279 I stated, it has to start there. It has to start with what 461 00:32:42.319 --> 00:32:46.640 the business people wants to measure. What actually is a measurable something for the 462 00:32:46.799 --> 00:32:51.079 for the industry for what we are doing. Is it number of sales? 463 00:32:51.480 --> 00:32:53.359 Is it, you know, a number of users? Is it a number 464 00:32:53.359 --> 00:32:58.920 of What is it that that makes the day for the business owner in this 465 00:32:59.039 --> 00:33:04.200 context? And I always say that you start by measuring that you don't put 466 00:33:04.240 --> 00:33:07.119 anything out there. You don't put anything in the cloud unless you have a 467 00:33:07.160 --> 00:33:12.240 measurement that satisfies that what they are, what the suits, the being counters, 468 00:33:12.279 --> 00:33:15.000 they excel people what they are, what they are asking for. That's 469 00:33:15.039 --> 00:33:17.880 what we really want to see. And if we can have that on a 470 00:33:17.960 --> 00:33:24.200 dashboard in the beginning right arguably before the workload moved, would be nice. 471 00:33:24.519 --> 00:33:28.160 Exactly, that would be the best. That would be the absolute best. 472 00:33:28.319 --> 00:33:31.680 And then we can actually see that trend line over time and they can understand 473 00:33:32.720 --> 00:33:37.000 and that that I think is the most important. And of course then then 474 00:33:37.079 --> 00:33:40.960 comes you know, CPU percentage and memory usage and other things that are Yeah, 475 00:33:42.680 --> 00:33:49.240 I appreciate that those are very abstract measures where we're yeah, cost of 476 00:33:49.319 --> 00:33:53.000 transaction, value of transaction, like those kinds. I'm an email I did 477 00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:58.279 a lot of e commerce work. Yeah, we made the dashboard that showed 478 00:33:58.279 --> 00:34:00.640 when the website was faster, we made more money for customer. Yeah, 479 00:34:00.880 --> 00:34:06.839 which which needle is it that moves the business? That's what we want to 480 00:34:06.880 --> 00:34:09.920 note that if I can get a CFO excited, I can get more budget. 481 00:34:10.199 --> 00:34:15.960 That's correct. And also you won't have you won't have that surprise conversation 482 00:34:15.159 --> 00:34:19.440 in the future where it's like, why is our costing this much? We 483 00:34:19.440 --> 00:34:21.920 didn't think it was going to cost this much. Oh, we're backing out 484 00:34:21.920 --> 00:34:23.480 of the cloud, We're moving away. This is not what we expected. 485 00:34:23.719 --> 00:34:28.320 Well, I also feel like we did not measure stuff on prem Well, 486 00:34:29.559 --> 00:34:32.599 that's true. The side effective azure is you are getting a monthly bill and 487 00:34:32.679 --> 00:34:39.199 that varies. It is and that yes, And it's hard because we have 488 00:34:39.320 --> 00:34:45.719 been taught for decades that i T is a budget item. It's a huge 489 00:34:45.199 --> 00:34:49.320 piece piece of Yes, cost center on the budget. This like this, 490 00:34:49.320 --> 00:34:52.639 this many this many millions and and that's it. And now there's no more 491 00:34:52.679 --> 00:34:57.360 conversation between the business and the i T until next year. We're going to 492 00:34:57.440 --> 00:35:01.519 have the same conversation once. And it's really weird. And that's exactly what 493 00:35:01.760 --> 00:35:06.719 how the cloud does not work. Yeah, maybe that's the real issue bank 494 00:35:06.800 --> 00:35:12.159 This is that when I was directing it, I had an annual conversation with 495 00:35:12.280 --> 00:35:15.360 finance about our spend for the year. That's right. And occasionally you go 496 00:35:15.400 --> 00:35:19.159 in for exceptions because hey, we're making this big push and that I need 497 00:35:19.159 --> 00:35:21.320 to get a few more machines. And it's got a two month leap time, 498 00:35:21.679 --> 00:35:25.199 but that was an exception. But I had one year and typically four 499 00:35:25.320 --> 00:35:29.320 year horizons, like we're going to renew the data set of contract, We're 500 00:35:29.320 --> 00:35:31.880 going to buy new hardware. And these were two Comma spends right Like they 501 00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:36.679 were big spends. So you would sit in the boardroom with the finance guys 502 00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:39.440 and hammer this stuff out and we'd look at leasing deals and all these other 503 00:35:39.480 --> 00:35:44.599 things, and all of that goes away with the cloud in exchange for a 504 00:35:44.719 --> 00:35:50.079 monthly bill that kind of like your cell phone bill can surprise you. Yeah, 505 00:35:50.159 --> 00:35:52.519 well, when I turn on my phone in bangal Or, it costs 506 00:35:52.559 --> 00:35:57.960 five bucks a minute, and good luck trying to decipher and how well does 507 00:35:58.119 --> 00:36:01.119 az your advisor help with this kind of thing? And do you use it? 508 00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:06.599 And what is it? So I use azur Advisor to to look up 509 00:36:06.639 --> 00:36:08.760 the recommendations that are in there. Is like saying there are things like, 510 00:36:08.800 --> 00:36:13.760 okay, you're you seem to be running a lot of virtual machines, would 511 00:36:13.800 --> 00:36:19.480 you maybe consider using a reserved instance plan instead? And makes like are you 512 00:36:19.519 --> 00:36:21.719 going to keep these machines for a year? Are you going to keep them 513 00:36:21.760 --> 00:36:24.159 for three years? Does that look like a thing you might do? Well? 514 00:36:24.559 --> 00:36:29.559 Then here's the recommendation that says you should be buying a reserved instance plan 515 00:36:30.559 --> 00:36:35.840 to get to get a really really big discount if you do. But that 516 00:36:36.079 --> 00:36:39.199 that really it sounds such a it sounds like such a technical question, right, 517 00:36:39.599 --> 00:36:44.079 but it really is not. This is this is a very very interesting 518 00:36:44.159 --> 00:36:47.320 question that I've been using for for quite some time to illustrate what the problem 519 00:36:47.400 --> 00:36:52.800 really is. So you're saying, it sounds like I can just say next, 520 00:36:52.800 --> 00:36:55.440 next, finish on this dialogue, and and and all of a sudden, 521 00:36:55.440 --> 00:37:00.440 I have this great discount because I now bought a reserved instance plan. 522 00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:04.559 Wonderful. Okay, So now I just spent a couple one hundred thousand dollars 523 00:37:04.960 --> 00:37:07.000 doing that. Because if we had a many we had many machines, maybe 524 00:37:07.000 --> 00:37:10.880 I should ask, you know, the business people first. And now it 525 00:37:10.880 --> 00:37:16.880 becomes this question of are we going to continue using vms as in infrastructure services 526 00:37:17.159 --> 00:37:21.760 or are we actually going to migrate the applications away from those vms and put 527 00:37:21.760 --> 00:37:25.360 them on platform services instead. That conversation, are you going to have that 528 00:37:25.400 --> 00:37:30.360 with a bunch of people who are business people and IT people. Well, 529 00:37:30.400 --> 00:37:32.360 now you have to talk to the devs. Are the debvs ready to actually 530 00:37:32.440 --> 00:37:37.920 move them out of the vms the applications. That is right, and that 531 00:37:37.119 --> 00:37:44.239 strategy is much much larger conversation than the question of should I activate reserve instances. 532 00:37:44.960 --> 00:37:47.119 You're right, but it also makes more sense because I should have the 533 00:37:47.119 --> 00:37:50.239 finance guys in the room at that point, I should have dev room. 534 00:37:50.280 --> 00:37:52.639 Now we're going to make a schedule. Hey, here are all the apps 535 00:37:53.199 --> 00:37:58.599 that are all running in vms right now. We can do one a quarter, 536 00:37:59.480 --> 00:38:01.800 yes, these one, these ones that are ten down the line, 537 00:38:01.840 --> 00:38:07.239 you can start buying years of reservedances for them, lowering their for sure. 538 00:38:06.840 --> 00:38:09.840 For some of the other one absolutely one hundred percent. For some of them. 539 00:38:09.960 --> 00:38:14.519 It is not even worth it to you know, that application, it's 540 00:38:14.559 --> 00:38:17.559 not so important, it's not that expensive, and rebuilding it to move off 541 00:38:17.559 --> 00:38:22.320 of it. That fix it, forget about it. That's not we'll just 542 00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:24.920 we'll just leave that one. But the other one here is magnus. It's 543 00:38:24.960 --> 00:38:29.280 getting it's getting those guys in the room. Like so often, we're doing 544 00:38:29.320 --> 00:38:32.800 our own job and not worry not recognizing that this is a strategic conversation where 545 00:38:32.840 --> 00:38:36.880 all the players need to be in the room and making a plan. Well, 546 00:38:37.000 --> 00:38:38.960 you know which person we haven't called out yet, And I would argue 547 00:38:38.960 --> 00:38:42.800 that this is this is the most important person to have in the room for 548 00:38:42.840 --> 00:38:49.599 this conversation. You want to know the human resource director. Interesting, Yes, 549 00:38:50.039 --> 00:38:53.079 I only call it HR when I've got problems. That's right. But 550 00:38:53.239 --> 00:38:57.000 you have a problem, but you just don't know it yet. The problem. 551 00:38:57.280 --> 00:39:00.119 The problem is that you don't have enough people with enough skills in azure. 552 00:39:00.519 --> 00:39:04.360 You have wonderful, wonderful people in your business. They work there for 553 00:39:04.400 --> 00:39:06.679 a long time. They know their stuff, they know it t they know 554 00:39:06.760 --> 00:39:08.559 dev, they know all that, but they just don't know how to make 555 00:39:08.599 --> 00:39:14.159 an optimized, secure, compliant deployment of your application in the cloud. The 556 00:39:15.199 --> 00:39:21.320 factory. That's a that's that's that's exactly you have a factory pattern. Now 557 00:39:21.320 --> 00:39:25.519 you have two problems, right, yeah, yes, So that means that 558 00:39:25.559 --> 00:39:30.880 you have to have a solid plan for either acquiring skilled people. Good luck 559 00:39:30.880 --> 00:39:35.079 with that. Those the people who are really skilled with cloud stuff, they 560 00:39:35.079 --> 00:39:37.800 already have a job. But you also, yeah, they're busy. Uh. 561 00:39:37.840 --> 00:39:42.199 And then you have to also include uh, you know, the training 562 00:39:42.280 --> 00:39:46.039 or retraining or upskilling or changing the skill of your your existing people so that 563 00:39:46.079 --> 00:39:51.199 they will understand how to actually use the cloud in a good way. I 564 00:39:51.239 --> 00:39:57.639 mean, I do debate the value of training getting skilled in migration because that's 565 00:39:57.639 --> 00:40:01.360 going to end, yes in x men years. It's operations that you want 566 00:40:01.400 --> 00:40:07.679 to be skilled. Operations, governance, the security and compliance pieces that are 567 00:40:07.679 --> 00:40:10.119 going to be so important. Maybe you didn't know that to begin with that 568 00:40:10.320 --> 00:40:15.199 compliance was going to be important because you didn't realize. And then much later 569 00:40:15.320 --> 00:40:17.719 you have an application running in the cloud and your customer says, we want 570 00:40:17.760 --> 00:40:21.199 to be we need to be compliant with so and so. Are you complied 571 00:40:21.280 --> 00:40:23.119 with so and so? Otherwise we can't buy your service? And now compliance 572 00:40:23.199 --> 00:40:27.360 is very important, but it wasn't before, So now we have to go 573 00:40:27.480 --> 00:40:30.519 fix compliance after the fact. Is there any AI that Azure has, or 574 00:40:30.519 --> 00:40:37.119 maybe even chat GPT that can help us find problems and correct them. It's 575 00:40:37.360 --> 00:40:42.559 getting to that point you can't You can't release anything from Microsoft right now except 576 00:40:42.960 --> 00:40:45.320 going through like this AI wash first, right, is it AI enough? 577 00:40:45.480 --> 00:40:50.559 If it's not a enough, they can they can get it. I mean, 578 00:40:50.599 --> 00:40:53.280 at the simplest level, you could ask chat GPT here, tell me 579 00:40:53.320 --> 00:40:58.199 how to get a list of resources that haven't been used in the last six 580 00:40:58.239 --> 00:41:04.039 months and help help me deactivate them. Yeah, but imagine having a complete 581 00:41:04.079 --> 00:41:07.559 AI engine inside of your governance in your cloud use. I'm not so sure 582 00:41:07.559 --> 00:41:10.880 I want that. You'll ask it. You'll ask it. Hey, dude, 583 00:41:12.840 --> 00:41:15.079 what can I like? How can I optimize my cost? And it's 584 00:41:15.119 --> 00:41:20.159 going to base that on your utilization, your usage, and it's going to 585 00:41:20.159 --> 00:41:23.199 base it on the experience of the entire usage of everyone using Yeah, that 586 00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:27.760 I would like. I would like something to tell me what to do when 587 00:41:27.760 --> 00:41:32.119 I ask a question. But as we discovered in the better known framework story, 588 00:41:32.639 --> 00:41:37.639 you don't want something that just has agency and it's going to go do 589 00:41:37.719 --> 00:41:40.320 things on your behalf without you being involved. You know. No, No, 590 00:41:40.719 --> 00:41:44.400 that's not what we're talking about. I guess no, No, I'm 591 00:41:44.400 --> 00:41:46.920 talking about just help me figure this out. What am I doing wrong, 592 00:41:47.679 --> 00:41:52.320 you know, or why this application seems to be down. And then this 593 00:41:52.480 --> 00:41:54.639 also comes back to this age old question of what is an application in the 594 00:41:54.639 --> 00:41:59.159 cloud? If you have you know, my application consists of twenty five different 595 00:41:59.199 --> 00:42:02.920 resources, multiple different you know, locations around my subscriptions and various things. 596 00:42:04.320 --> 00:42:07.920 I want to be able to see that thing as one application because to me. 597 00:42:08.280 --> 00:42:12.679 It is one. So what is this wonderful AI you're talking about? 598 00:42:13.800 --> 00:42:15.400 I was getting to it. I mean Microsoft is getting to it. They're 599 00:42:15.440 --> 00:42:20.920 they're working all of these things into their their existing services. They're taking all 600 00:42:20.960 --> 00:42:22.840 the services that they had and just adding AI to them. If you yeah, 601 00:42:22.880 --> 00:42:25.760 we think it. Azure Advisor will have an LM and it's sooner or 602 00:42:25.840 --> 00:42:30.440 later. Yeah, probably sooner. Yeah. Yeah, and Azure monitor and 603 00:42:30.920 --> 00:42:35.719 you know this has been this has been a while coming. Know that there 604 00:42:35.800 --> 00:42:39.559 was this Azure graph thing you could have. Yeah, so Azure graph is 605 00:42:39.559 --> 00:42:44.679 is just a little graph that explains that all the resources, all all the 606 00:42:44.719 --> 00:42:49.000 things you have. So that's one step in that direction. But Microsoft is 607 00:42:49.000 --> 00:42:52.360 not taking multiple steps in that direction over the I believe over the next six 608 00:42:52.400 --> 00:42:57.719 months is going to be an exciting time for monitoring Azure. Okay, fair 609 00:42:57.840 --> 00:42:59.960 enough. Yeah, do you think it's going to It's going to evolve. 610 00:43:00.039 --> 00:43:04.400 But I appreciate that probably they're not going to introduce new tools. I mean, 611 00:43:04.639 --> 00:43:07.079 haven't helped me if they do, but rather take the tools that we're 612 00:43:07.119 --> 00:43:14.000 already supposedly understand and add more LM to them right here and there. Yeah, 613 00:43:14.039 --> 00:43:16.880 that would be wonderful. Yeah, that's what we're going to get. 614 00:43:16.920 --> 00:43:22.559 I'm sure. I'm certain there's plenty of evidence to show that they're doing deep 615 00:43:22.679 --> 00:43:25.280 out Like you look at some of this other sentinels doing this day and its 616 00:43:25.320 --> 00:43:30.639 ability to look across multiple logs and events and so forth and say, hey, 617 00:43:30.679 --> 00:43:34.320 there's some unusual behavior here. As a composite of that view, that's 618 00:43:34.360 --> 00:43:37.199 a good summarizer engineer, Yeah, it is. And that argument is what 619 00:43:37.239 --> 00:43:40.119 we have been using for a while to talk about, for example, security 620 00:43:40.119 --> 00:43:45.079 in the cloud. Why is a company why are the huge cloud giants so 621 00:43:45.239 --> 00:43:51.000 good at security? Well, it's because they have a data pool of security 622 00:43:51.159 --> 00:43:54.719 data which is larger than anyone's. Yeah, you might be on your business, 623 00:43:54.760 --> 00:43:58.840 your tiny little business, which you think is huge, is very small 624 00:43:58.880 --> 00:44:01.920 in the cloud. It's being attacked right now, except you can't see that 625 00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:07.360 based on the data you have. But Microsoft can see the attack on you, 626 00:44:07.400 --> 00:44:09.599 an attack on other people as a larger pattern, and they can tell 627 00:44:09.639 --> 00:44:14.480 you listen, this thing here that you don't perceive as an attack is in 628 00:44:14.519 --> 00:44:19.320 fact an attack, right, And that, you know, is why you 629 00:44:19.360 --> 00:44:22.920 want to have the power of that information size, that data size, and 630 00:44:22.960 --> 00:44:27.639 if you put an NLM on that then you have something. Yeah, you 631 00:44:27.679 --> 00:44:30.880 have some interesting things, So I am looking. It will be interesting to 632 00:44:30.880 --> 00:44:34.840 see what that's going on. Of course, we're recording this just before the 633 00:44:34.920 --> 00:44:37.760 MVP summit. You and I are going to be there, I think magnets 634 00:44:37.880 --> 00:44:42.360 so exactly. You know, there's some briefings along these lines we're not going 635 00:44:42.400 --> 00:44:45.880 to be allowed to talk about, right, Yeah, clearly there's motion there. 636 00:44:45.920 --> 00:44:52.280 This last year seemed like the hype cycle for especially from Microsoft, with 637 00:44:52.360 --> 00:44:55.519 the Copilot. Of all the things. I'm hopefully this is the year that 638 00:44:55.559 --> 00:45:00.599 we see a bunch of implemented stuff that can make our lives better. Yeah, 639 00:45:00.599 --> 00:45:02.719 you get a copilot, you get a call a copilot, everybody gets 640 00:45:02.719 --> 00:45:07.119 a co pilot. At one point I was poking some friends inside of the 641 00:45:07.119 --> 00:45:09.000 company. There was like, there's one hundred and eighty of these and most 642 00:45:09.000 --> 00:45:12.920 of them should not see the light of day. Oh my god. No. 643 00:45:13.440 --> 00:45:17.840 Yeah, I can see why as well. But that's to that point. 644 00:45:17.920 --> 00:45:21.599 It feels a little bit in the beginning here, which is where we 645 00:45:21.639 --> 00:45:25.440 are in the beginning of the co pilot era, is that some of these 646 00:45:25.480 --> 00:45:31.440 are so bland or they really they really can't do anything yet that it's just 647 00:45:31.480 --> 00:45:34.960 like, if you're going to release a new version of whatever you have, 648 00:45:35.400 --> 00:45:37.719 it's going to have to have AI and a co pilot in it, or 649 00:45:37.719 --> 00:45:39.639 you're not shipping. So they are like shipping this tiny little thing that they 650 00:45:39.679 --> 00:45:45.039 call a co pilot for whatever, and it can't do anything yet. Yeah. 651 00:45:45.199 --> 00:45:47.440 But one of the reasons I mentioned Aspire at the top of the show 652 00:45:47.719 --> 00:45:52.599 is it's it's about cloud native behavior too, Like I'm hoping that our tools 653 00:45:52.760 --> 00:46:00.000 as devs get better at thinking helping us fall into cloud thinking. Yeah. 654 00:46:00.039 --> 00:46:06.119 Yes, it's not just that I identified that these are these are secure related 655 00:46:06.159 --> 00:46:08.320 strings or special tokens and so forth. Is that I'm also you know, 656 00:46:08.440 --> 00:46:13.840 pushing towards key vaults or where is the secure stur for this that we can 657 00:46:14.239 --> 00:46:17.519 read against like that sort of cloud native behavior so that we tend to do 658 00:46:17.559 --> 00:46:21.880 the right things that we're building software. Mm hmm, that's right, that's 659 00:46:21.960 --> 00:46:24.119 right. Well, I can't wait to see what happens. I hope so, 660 00:46:24.159 --> 00:46:29.079 because I don't know that it's true yet, we'll see, we'll see. 661 00:46:29.119 --> 00:46:30.480 I think it. I think it will be true because it seems like 662 00:46:30.760 --> 00:46:36.119 an actual good use case of of L MSM, so I saved the most 663 00:46:36.119 --> 00:46:40.920 important question for last. What flavors of ice cream? Does lofty soft serve? 664 00:46:43.960 --> 00:46:50.119 Serves? That? Definitely observes it serves chocolate, chocolate. Nice. 665 00:46:50.920 --> 00:46:53.440 I really can't pick on you for a crazy name with a name like pwop 666 00:46:53.960 --> 00:46:55.920 Yeah, yeah, where are you going to go with that? But I 667 00:46:55.960 --> 00:47:00.159 applaud your you know, being funny there with lofty soft. It's kind of 668 00:47:00.159 --> 00:47:06.079 a funny sounding name, but you won't forget it. Well, I just 669 00:47:06.079 --> 00:47:07.280 wanted to buy it a man that had dot com at the end. I 670 00:47:07.400 --> 00:47:13.639 wasn't too expensive. It's not a bad reasons the name you can get yeah, 671 00:47:13.719 --> 00:47:15.920 exactly. And people be like, lofty does that mean that because you're 672 00:47:15.960 --> 00:47:19.119 doing things in the cloud? I'm like, yeah, sure, yeah, 673 00:47:19.119 --> 00:47:22.880 that's exactly what that was. That was what I was going for all along. 674 00:47:22.960 --> 00:47:28.519 Actually, yes, all the truth is out Magnus now we know yep. 675 00:47:29.039 --> 00:47:34.079 Yeah. And Howard and meatballs at home. It was the last time 676 00:47:34.159 --> 00:47:37.039 Jessica whipped up a batch of those, so they're good as ever. You 677 00:47:37.079 --> 00:47:40.480 know you should you should pop over Yeah, be right there. It's been 678 00:47:40.519 --> 00:47:44.480 a long time, so we av that's all started at an or dev right 679 00:47:44.519 --> 00:47:47.159 yeah, that's what we met. Yeah, yeah, network keep seeing each 680 00:47:47.159 --> 00:47:52.480 other at every freaking conference around the world. I guess I would go to 681 00:47:52.679 --> 00:47:55.760 ordev just to attend to go to the bishop's arms and to come over for 682 00:47:55.840 --> 00:47:59.679 meatballs. I would do that. There you go. Well, I'm happy 683 00:47:59.719 --> 00:48:06.159 to have It's just we can't do it October November when it's freaking it's terrible. 684 00:48:06.320 --> 00:48:12.079 That's when you drink the wormwood my mouse. Sorry. I don't know 685 00:48:12.079 --> 00:48:14.760 if they serve that at the Green Lion, but I'd rather have scotch. 686 00:48:15.519 --> 00:48:19.519 Yeah, fair enough. Those are those are good bars. So is there 687 00:48:19.519 --> 00:48:22.599 anything else you want to talk about before we jump off? I mean, 688 00:48:22.079 --> 00:48:27.039 so, I'm really looking forward to the next steps on the cloud, and 689 00:48:27.119 --> 00:48:30.719 I guess we kind of all we already covered that. But I think that 690 00:48:30.199 --> 00:48:37.480 the new Horizons scenario, it's just to continue to make it easier for people 691 00:48:37.519 --> 00:48:40.760 to get it. And that's hard when you keep adding new things all the 692 00:48:40.800 --> 00:48:44.760 time. And I think, I think though, I think though, that 693 00:48:44.880 --> 00:48:49.400 we are we are at a place now where the cloud is It's hard to 694 00:48:49.440 --> 00:48:52.880 say it's stabilizing, but I think it is, and it seems to be. 695 00:48:52.519 --> 00:48:57.119 It seems to be and a challenge now is that now everyone is talking 696 00:48:57.159 --> 00:49:00.960 about AI. Okay, cool, we love AI. AIR services are cool? 697 00:49:00.039 --> 00:49:04.159 AIR services are great? I get it, I get it. Where 698 00:49:04.199 --> 00:49:07.599 are all the AI services running? They're running in the cloud. So what 699 00:49:08.639 --> 00:49:13.000 a company, and this is kind of a cautionary tail here, what a 700 00:49:13.039 --> 00:49:17.480 company really needs to understand is to use AI services with you know, oh 701 00:49:17.559 --> 00:49:21.559 we have we're going to put you know, all of our massive amounts of 702 00:49:21.639 --> 00:49:25.400 data and we're going to do our own copilot and whatnot. We're going to 703 00:49:25.679 --> 00:49:29.239 run it on our own data and so forth. Oh, that's good for 704 00:49:29.280 --> 00:49:32.559 you, except you now realize that you have to understand how to use the 705 00:49:32.559 --> 00:49:37.159 cloud platform as well, because you're moving petabytes of data into the cloud now, 706 00:49:37.400 --> 00:49:42.119 and they're security and governance and data transport and all the things and costs. 707 00:49:42.920 --> 00:49:46.079 But the conversation right now seems to be all about AI and how cool 708 00:49:46.119 --> 00:49:49.360 AI is and how we're going to use that. Well, guess what, 709 00:49:49.480 --> 00:49:52.519 there's a platform underneath called Azure that you may need to look into as well. 710 00:49:52.679 --> 00:49:57.159 So that's kind of a cautionary tale here, and all that AI excitement 711 00:49:57.239 --> 00:50:01.000 is that you actually need to understand the platform. Well, center enough sure, 712 00:50:01.320 --> 00:50:05.400 mangus. Thanks, it's been a pleasure catching up with you again. 713 00:50:05.800 --> 00:50:07.239 Yeah, thank you very much. All right, we'll talk to you next 714 00:50:07.239 --> 00:50:31.599 time on dot net rocks. Dot net Rocks is brought to you by Franklin's 715 00:50:31.679 --> 00:50:37.639 Net and produced by Pop Studios, a full service audio, video and post 716 00:50:37.639 --> 00:50:42.360 production facility located physically in New London, Connecticut, and of course in the 717 00:50:42.440 --> 00:50:47.320 cloud online at pwop dot com. Visit our website at d O T N 718 00:50:47.360 --> 00:50:52.920 E t R O c k S dot com for RSS feeds, downloads, 719 00:50:52.039 --> 00:50:57.320 mobile apps, comments, and access to the full archives going back to show 720 00:50:57.400 --> 00:51:01.119 number one, recorded in September two thousand into and make sure you check out 721 00:51:01.119 --> 00:51:05.800 our sponsors. They keep us in business. Now go write some code. 722 00:51:06.360 --> 00:51:15.079 See you next time. You got JAD metal vans by the Means Home, 723 00:51:15.599 --> 00:51:16.599 then my Texes