1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:05,679 How'd you like to listen to dot NetRocks with no ads? Easy? Become 2 00:00:05,679 --> 00:00:09,839 a patron for just five dollars a month. You get access to a private 3 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:14,279 RSS feed where all the shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month, 4 00:00:14,279 --> 00:00:18,640 we'll get you that and a special dot net Rocks patron mug. Sign up 5 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:35,359 now at Patreon dot dot NetRocks dot com. Hey, welcome back to dot 6 00:00:35,439 --> 00:00:40,000 net rocks. I'm Carl Franklin, Amergard Campbell, and you probably know who 7 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:42,560 we are if you've been listening to the show as long as we've been making 8 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:44,920 them. Hey, if it's your first one, welcome, Yeah, where 9 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:47,759 you've been? We've done eighteen hundred and something of it? Where Were you? 10 00:00:50,399 --> 00:00:54,159 Episode eighteen hundred and eighty nine? Can you believe it? There you 11 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:58,039 go? And I love listening to podcasts that started like in the two thousands 12 00:00:58,039 --> 00:01:00,359 and brag about how long they've been doing podcast a. Yeah, we don't 13 00:01:00,359 --> 00:01:03,719 do that, right, we don't. We really don't. We just go 14 00:01:03,799 --> 00:01:07,120 to work and talk to people. But we were talking the other day about 15 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,680 it. I think we may be the longest continuous running podcast in the world. 16 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:12,599 Now we may be. Yeah, yeah, it might be true. 17 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:19,159 Well that's uh yeah, I know we got that going for us. Or 18 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:25,560 if you're in Mexico, it's fifty five pisos. Don't rub it in anymore 19 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:29,920 possibly than you possibly can. My friend Richard's in Mexico. Yep, two 20 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:33,879 weeks he's making us feel cold. Yeah, you guys are having weather. 21 00:01:34,879 --> 00:01:38,480 Although weather in Vancouver. I don't want to just talk about the weather. 22 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:44,400 But man, yesterday was the first day in Connecticut here where we could actually 23 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:47,680 go out on the back deck at night. It was sixty two degrees fahrenheit. 24 00:01:47,799 --> 00:01:49,480 Oh good, so broke. That's good. I'm glad. Yeah, 25 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:56,840 he had snow that turned the rain in Vancouver and we're like, hah, 26 00:01:57,280 --> 00:01:59,840 well, Magnus Martinsen is here. We're going to talk to him in a 27 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:02,560 minit and Magnus, if you want to jump in on this story that I 28 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:13,800 have for better know framework feel free. Let's roll the crazy music. A 29 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:15,639 man, what do you got? Okay? So you know, I do 30 00:02:15,719 --> 00:02:21,840 this show called Security this week with Patrick Hines and Duane Flotten, So I'm 31 00:02:21,879 --> 00:02:27,280 aware. I'm more aware now of the stories that come across my desk about 32 00:02:27,599 --> 00:02:31,840 security, and AI is one of them. Because everybody's worried about AI taking 33 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:36,479 over the world, of course. So this is an article from PC magazine 34 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:42,919 and the headline is new malware worm can poison chat, GPT and Gemini powered 35 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:47,159 assistants. Generative AI models aren't immune to viruses. A new worm can target 36 00:02:47,199 --> 00:02:53,360 AI powered assistance and break some of Gemini and chat GPT security features. Research 37 00:02:53,400 --> 00:03:00,639 reveals, well, they're pointing to an article in Wired and this this is 38 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:06,599 a really irresponsible article. I don't know what you thought, Richard when you're 39 00:03:06,599 --> 00:03:08,560 written, No, that's exactly what I thought. And I was going to 40 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:10,599 be annoyed with you for even bringing it up. But if you want to 41 00:03:10,599 --> 00:03:14,639 come at the fact that there's some irresponsible reporting coming on, I'm glad, 42 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:17,879 yeah, because this is pretty irresponsible at reporting. So the article from Wired 43 00:03:19,039 --> 00:03:22,919 is here, come the AI worms. Security researchers created an AI worm in 44 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:29,319 a test environment and that can automatically spread between generative AI agents, potentially stealing 45 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:32,599 data and sending spam emails along the way. And okay, this is a 46 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:38,000 lab experiment right in a controlled environment. And PC magazine is like, hey, 47 00:03:38,199 --> 00:03:44,680 guess what you're don't use chut, GPT and Gemini because you get this 48 00:03:44,759 --> 00:03:49,159 worm and you're screwed. Yeah it's no worm, and yeah there is and 49 00:03:49,639 --> 00:03:53,240 Wired is a little more reasoned about that. And actually the piece underneath this, 50 00:03:53,439 --> 00:03:55,639 which is you know, from a set of researchers, is better still 51 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:59,639 because right, really what they're talking about is we do need to be prepared, 52 00:03:59,759 --> 00:04:01,759 Sure we do. Yeah, I mean the most important part to me 53 00:04:02,039 --> 00:04:08,080 was the fact that it spanned open Ai and Gemini and Lama. Yeah, 54 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:13,520 because that's Facebook, because it shows this is inherent to lllm's right, nothing 55 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,879 to do with any particular model, right, And basically, you know, 56 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:21,399 they they gave it a what do they do? They gave it a prompt 57 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:27,720 that allowed it to they've been basically jail broke it, right, And well, 58 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:30,079 yeahs and jail break is one thing, but the bigger thing here was 59 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:34,439 the recursion engine to have it generate an output that then it then needs to 60 00:04:34,439 --> 00:04:38,879 immediately respond to. Yeah, you know, the best answer I have to 61 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:44,560 that is don't do that. Don't do that exactly. So it's it's like 62 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:47,480 fud right, it's a fun machine. So if you if you're on your 63 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:53,079 chat rept channel and you've logged in and you're authenticated and you're having a nice 64 00:04:53,079 --> 00:04:56,519 little conversation with chat chept. You don't have to worry about any of this, 65 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:00,399 right, Yeah, No, I think they're thinking about a future where, 66 00:05:00,959 --> 00:05:03,040 you know, the thing they also promise us with with the Amazon device 67 00:05:03,079 --> 00:05:06,040 which I won't see the name of, just enough ruin people's day, where 68 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:10,399 you're supposed to be done with that joke. Yes, automatically, you know, 69 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:14,279 just order me more laundry soap. Now you're imagining this agent doing that, 70 00:05:14,319 --> 00:05:18,560 and could that if it has full authority to go make the order and 71 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:24,000 complete the sale, you have a risk of exploitation. That's true, whether 72 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:28,040 it's an LM or in there or not. Yeah, they And it comes 73 00:05:28,079 --> 00:05:31,600 back to our least privilege argument that we've been having about computing ever since the 74 00:05:31,639 --> 00:05:35,920 dawn of computers. Well, and having some gates around Okay, if you're 75 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,839 going to write emails on my behalf, should I look at each one of 76 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:43,279 them before they send? Or should rules of what you can send? Like, 77 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:46,920 you know, you could set some parameters around that, but recursively generating 78 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:53,360 code that then sends email. Yeah, all right, it's good that I 79 00:05:53,399 --> 00:05:57,360 can fix that. That's ten minutes. There we go. Yep, don't 80 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:03,120 do that's all right. Well I wanted to. I wanted to bring that 81 00:06:03,199 --> 00:06:06,240 up. Agreement on this one. Yeah, we are in violent agreement and 82 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:10,800 it's a good laugh. But you know, sometimes we need to put these 83 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:14,160 things in context. And you know that's why you listen. And I want 84 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:15,839 to believe the Cornell guys were working in faith. It's like, hey, 85 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:20,680 is there an exploit risk here just to help lead folks into we should deal 86 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:25,319 with this before it becomes a problem. But I'm on all the rest. 87 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:29,120 Indeed, Well, I don't know, magnety, have anything you want to 88 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:30,839 add to that. I mean, mister cloud guy. I was just listening 89 00:06:30,879 --> 00:06:36,399 to this and we've heard this time and again that that it seems like sometimes 90 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:44,399 the the the journalist or whatever we should call this person is so desperate to 91 00:06:44,439 --> 00:06:47,360 do something, but they're they're going to write just anything, whether it's you 92 00:06:47,399 --> 00:06:50,560 know, remotely true or not, and and they, like you said, 93 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:56,959 it's completely irresponsible and that I loathe it. It's not it's not journalism. 94 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:59,680 I don't know what that is. Yeah, and if anybody would like cite 95 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,639 this article on a podcast or something, and then nobody would do that, 96 00:07:02,759 --> 00:07:05,000 you know, put that in the links. Who would do that? That's 97 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:14,839 irresponsible, that's irresponsible clickbait. Just it reprehensible. All right, Well that's 98 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:17,800 the fun, fun way to start the show today. Who's talking to us? 99 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,959 Richard? Hey, I grabbed a comment off of show eighteen eighty one, 100 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:24,439 so not that long ago. That's the one we did about dot net 101 00:07:24,439 --> 00:07:28,920 Aspire with David Fowler. Yeah, and the comment comes from codeputier otherwise known 102 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:31,480 as Richard Rukima, one of our longtime listener and occasional guests. He's done, 103 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,360 he lives in both worlds, and he said, I've enjoyed dot net 104 00:07:34,439 --> 00:07:36,480 rocks for over a decade. Yeah, like it's longer than that. I 105 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:40,680 found emails from you from the aughts, my friend. Oh yeah. I 106 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:43,399 can't put my finger on it, but this show really felt like this show 107 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:46,160 is of old such great ton in the conversation with an internal resize that we 108 00:07:46,199 --> 00:07:51,360 all need so desperately, Like David hearing his perspective on Aspire was very inspirational 109 00:07:51,399 --> 00:07:54,720 as well as educational. And to be clear, this is not a diss 110 00:07:54,759 --> 00:07:58,680 of previous content, but this episode is a gold standard on wireless. Oh 111 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:01,800 cool, And I was thinking about it of a. I know, we're 112 00:08:01,839 --> 00:08:03,519 talking to the guy who invented the technology. I mean, admittedly, David 113 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:07,120 had a team around him and he's still trying to figure out what he's made. 114 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:11,399 You know. I saw him at NBC Sydney and they were workshopping it 115 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:15,439 and literally still trying to figure out how to describe it. So, you 116 00:08:15,439 --> 00:08:18,399 know, one of the things I like about that particular show is we were 117 00:08:18,439 --> 00:08:20,399 trying to understand what he was talking about, and he was trying to understand 118 00:08:20,399 --> 00:08:24,279 what he was doing. So there's this real wrestling match about I know you 119 00:08:24,439 --> 00:08:28,079 got something here, David, I just don't know how to describe it. 120 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:33,120 Yeah. I thought it was a very fun show, definitely. And Richard, 121 00:08:33,159 --> 00:08:35,440 you know you already have a copy of Music co b. I goodest 122 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:39,080 noticed about every other thing, but thank you so much for your comment, 123 00:08:39,279 --> 00:08:41,399 And if you'd like a copy of Music Coobe, I read a comment on 124 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:43,120 the website at dot na Rocks dot com or on the facebooks. We publish 125 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:46,159 every show there, and if you comment there and I read on the show, 126 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:48,559 we'll send you a copy of Music COBA. And you can follow us 127 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:50,799 on Twitter or x or whatever the heck you want to call it, but 128 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:54,080 all the cool kids are hanging out. I'm Masterdon, so follow us there. 129 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:58,240 I'm at Carl Franklin at tech hub dot social, and I'm Rich Campbell 130 00:08:58,279 --> 00:09:01,480 at McDon social. And you can find all the other ways. You can 131 00:09:01,519 --> 00:09:05,840 reach me at Carl Franklin dot com. But yeah, send us a two 132 00:09:05,279 --> 00:09:09,399 Rudy too too. Okay, let's bring on Magnus. I'm going to formally 133 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:15,720 introduce him with his latest bio. Magnus Martinsen is an entrepreneur, a Microsoft 134 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:20,759 Most Valuable Professional for Azure since the start of the cloud, and a Microsoft 135 00:09:20,799 --> 00:09:24,600 Regional Director. He's a consultant, architect, product development lead, and he 136 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:31,039 runs his own company, Loftysoft. As an international speaker, Magnus travels the 137 00:09:31,039 --> 00:09:35,399 world to teach, network, learn and experience. His passions include connecting with 138 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:41,120 audiences and organizing conferences such as Cloudburst and Global Azure. He is, of 139 00:09:41,159 --> 00:09:45,879 course, also very much into good food, wine and great company. Except 140 00:09:45,919 --> 00:09:48,639 for that crap that he tried to make us drink at Ted Neward's party, 141 00:09:48,639 --> 00:09:54,080 I would not recommend taking that tomping. That was my editorial. Tompy all 142 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:56,240 is mind sharing. So when you see him at a conference, come over 143 00:09:56,279 --> 00:10:01,039 and say hi, welcome back, Magnus. Well, thank you, thank 144 00:10:01,039 --> 00:10:03,759 you very much. Good good of you to have me. What the hell 145 00:10:03,879 --> 00:10:07,000 was that thing that you gave us at Ted Newart's party back in the day. 146 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:11,360 Uh, it's it's well, it's based on the wormwood, so it's 147 00:10:11,399 --> 00:10:18,480 it's very very bitter and straight. It was the most vile stuff I've ever 148 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:24,120 It tasted like bile because I've tasted that coming up out of my liver before 149 00:10:24,159 --> 00:10:28,879 when I was a drunken teenager say some fairly horrible things. I remember a 150 00:10:28,919 --> 00:10:35,759 particular tin of fish, but that's that's a different thing. Yeah, you 151 00:10:35,759 --> 00:10:41,279 don't inside, you'll clear a neighborhood. But here's the thing. It was 152 00:10:41,399 --> 00:10:45,840 just like, try this. All the real men in Sweden drink this. 153 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:48,440 It's good for you, absolutely, and we do. And we do this 154 00:10:50,399 --> 00:10:52,879 when when they when they are hunting in the in the lodge somewhere and they 155 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:58,279 put this this twig of the wormwood in the bottle and then leave it there. 156 00:10:58,399 --> 00:11:01,519 So like the first the first three shots are pretty okay, but the 157 00:11:01,919 --> 00:11:11,000 bottom line is like whoa da the states I think you got? I think 158 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,399 you got from the top of a bottle car and you're just so, You're 159 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:18,720 just a week So I guess I wasn't meant for the manliness of the Swedish 160 00:11:18,759 --> 00:11:24,000 liquor clouds. What can I tell you? Yeah? So what are you 161 00:11:24,039 --> 00:11:26,200 thinking about these days? Magnus? Oh? Wow, I'm thinking about a 162 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:31,480 lot of things. Top of mind in the community world is global Azure of 163 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:35,039 course is coming up again. But overall I'm working and I'm working with with 164 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:43,440 enterprises of various various kinds. So really helping large organizations fully adopt the cloud 165 00:11:43,879 --> 00:11:48,600 is a huge journey for for many of them. The biggest challenge is that 166 00:11:48,639 --> 00:11:54,360 they don't have enough experienced people on team on on on in their teams, 167 00:11:54,960 --> 00:12:01,039 so they're kind of struggling to really really fully get you get all of those 168 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:03,840 promises that we hear about the cloud. You know, it's pay per use, 169 00:12:03,919 --> 00:12:07,120 it's automation, it's agile, it's quick, and it's all those things. 170 00:12:07,519 --> 00:12:11,879 But they can't really reach it because it's hard when you don't have enough 171 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:13,840 folks that can help you along the way. So that's what I do. 172 00:12:13,919 --> 00:12:18,559 I help them make asure better. How much of this is a dev problem 173 00:12:18,639 --> 00:12:24,159 versus an assisted problem? Wow, dude, there is a dev problem in 174 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:28,039 there, but there is a huge governance problem in there because you just don't 175 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:31,879 know what it is that you're supposed to do. You can't even ask the 176 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:35,120 questions. So that's a challenge, right. So I work with teams of 177 00:12:35,159 --> 00:12:39,000 people, scores of people who have twenty thirty years of experience. They're really 178 00:12:39,039 --> 00:12:43,039 good engineers of all kinds, and they're really good at what they do, 179 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:46,840 except they don't have mileage in the cloud, so they don't know which questions 180 00:12:46,879 --> 00:12:50,039 to ask. I mean, if somebody tells you have twenty years of experience 181 00:12:50,039 --> 00:12:54,320 in the cloud, they're lying. Not in the cloud. No, not 182 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:58,440 in the cloud, they are it professionals. Yeah. To illustrate not knowing 183 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:01,759 what to do, I'm going to in a new acronym FO D A R 184 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:09,559 FODD are fear of deleting Azure resources because you know you have hundreds and hundreds 185 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:13,000 of resources. You just create one website you have You've created resources you may 186 00:13:13,039 --> 00:13:16,879 not even know about, and you come back later and you're like, hmm, 187 00:13:16,039 --> 00:13:20,519 what's this? Should I delete it? That is an excellent, excellent 188 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:24,039 acronym. It's costing me a lot of money. We should you should? 189 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:28,879 You should trademark, that acronym. It's it's amazing, that's exactly. That's 190 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:31,360 exactly a huge problem with many of my customers is that they don't know. 191 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:37,320 And so they a pretty recent study indicated by you know, self engaging. 192 00:13:37,519 --> 00:13:43,480 They asked people who consume another cloud roughly how much how much of your cloud 193 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:48,559 spend would you say is waste? And the self estimation was at about a 194 00:13:48,639 --> 00:13:50,399 third. So you got, you gotta, you got, you got a 195 00:13:50,399 --> 00:13:54,919 million dollar you know. Ea with Microsoft three hundred and thirty three thousand, 196 00:13:54,919 --> 00:13:58,799 it's just burning on the lawn. And that's exactly it, Carl, that 197 00:14:00,039 --> 00:14:03,919 they don't know exactly what they have, and they do not use the automation, 198 00:14:03,159 --> 00:14:05,080 and they do not use the you know, the things that you should 199 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:09,519 the things that most most people know that you should be doing, except they're 200 00:14:09,519 --> 00:14:11,559 not doing it. And when they're not, yeah, I've found you know, 201 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:16,480 oh look look at this. I found this this cluster of vms here. 202 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:18,360 What are you using that for? Oh? Those five vms? Oh 203 00:14:18,399 --> 00:14:22,159 I don't know, Wow, do we use them? I didn't. I 204 00:14:22,159 --> 00:14:24,600 didn't. I didn't even know. I didn't even know three months ago, 205 00:14:24,679 --> 00:14:28,320 right, So that's like, you know, ten months of compute just burning 206 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,240 for not real Have you ever you should? You could write a whole you 207 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:35,679 could do a whole class on understanding and itemized Azure bill. Have you ever 208 00:14:35,759 --> 00:14:41,000 looked at one of these things? Yeah, by the way, this week 209 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:45,399 because they keep changing the frickin thing too. Yeah, fair enough. The 210 00:14:45,399 --> 00:14:48,559 point is that you never should get to that position in the first place, 211 00:14:48,559 --> 00:14:52,799 so you should do it right. And and and companies again, they're coming 212 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:56,519 from a world of vms and and let's order. Order a VM means by 213 00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:01,960 hardware, and that's where they're coming from. And there's nothing wrong with that, 214 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,559 except that's not what you're supposed to be doing in the cloud. And 215 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:07,679 so they transposed that thing to the cloud and it just doesn't work. I 216 00:15:07,759 --> 00:15:11,759 had a nerving experience in Azure the other day. I went to start a 217 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:16,399 VM that I use for, you know, video recording, and it said, 218 00:15:16,759 --> 00:15:22,440 can't start this VM because there aren't enough resources in this region to support 219 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:28,799 it. And I'm thinking, aren't enough resources? You're Azure. You've got 220 00:15:28,039 --> 00:15:33,200 you know, underwater data centers all over the world or whatever you have, 221 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:37,559 you know, and you can't change it. So I had to just wait. 222 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:41,240 Well, the cloud is infinite for infinite for you, but it's not 223 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:48,000 infinite for Microsoft. Sure, I'm throwing the sissemin hat on this thing because 224 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,320 I do this conversation on run as all the time. And one of the 225 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:54,759 essential issues has been, and this is you know, big in the pandemic, 226 00:15:54,879 --> 00:15:58,840 was we did this fast migration to the cloud. And when you architect 227 00:15:58,879 --> 00:16:03,799 an app on pre or architect the resources for an app on prem you architecture 228 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:07,480 for peak. Right, if the most we're ever going to consume, that's 229 00:16:07,519 --> 00:16:11,360 what I'll buy, even though it'll represent one percent of the utilization. But 230 00:16:11,399 --> 00:16:15,399 that one percent is probably the most profitable point. I don't want it out. 231 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,799 And if you architect that way and throw it into Azure, you're spending 232 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,919 a ton of money on wasted resources. Yeah, absolutely right, and that's 233 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:26,480 a terrible way to do it. So the migration wizards that Microsoft have been 234 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:30,519 working on for quite some time now, they're getting better and better, more 235 00:16:30,519 --> 00:16:33,360 and more sophisticated. They actually doing a fair job. So long as you 236 00:16:33,759 --> 00:16:37,519 deploy a bunch of agents inside of your network. First, you let them 237 00:16:37,759 --> 00:16:40,360 be there for a while and listen to the traffic and see what's what, 238 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:45,480 and then you process that data and then you can write size as they call 239 00:16:45,519 --> 00:16:48,720 it when you migrate to the cloud, and sayf for you, I want 240 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:52,039 to use this size of thing instead in the cloud because that just makes more 241 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:56,799 sense. And then you just right sizing is a way of making sure that 242 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:00,440 you just don't move it like one to one on to the cloud and then 243 00:17:00,639 --> 00:17:03,599 you know, waste a lot of money. And I love that idea that 244 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:07,240 hey, you know, we don't know any secrets here, we need to 245 00:17:07,279 --> 00:17:10,759 watch you. Yeah, so load up these tools and let them run. 246 00:17:10,759 --> 00:17:15,000 And again, if you're a dev probably listening to this show, you have 247 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:18,319 to ask it, hey, let's deploy these agents into the network, which 248 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:22,559 is not going to make that person happy, Like true, that's going to 249 00:17:22,599 --> 00:17:26,039 be a battle, but the alternative is worse. Arguably, we had to 250 00:17:26,079 --> 00:17:33,279 do a security review and things like that before that was allowed in the network 251 00:17:33,279 --> 00:17:37,039 of a large customer that a public sector again that I'm working with right now. 252 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:40,640 And so after having done all of that, all the due diligence and 253 00:17:40,799 --> 00:17:44,440 figured out that this is not going to steal our information or anything, then 254 00:17:44,599 --> 00:17:49,039 then that was allowed. And the the we're migrating in the size of like 255 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:55,039 eight nine hundred VMS is the first migration step. Just moved move the things 256 00:17:55,039 --> 00:17:56,559 first, and that's not the biggest thing we've ever seen, but it's it's 257 00:17:56,599 --> 00:18:02,000 sizable for sure, and move that to the cloud to begin with. And 258 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:07,039 that's kind of when the work starts because the the Migration Wizard is basically automation. 259 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,480 So now we have moved. Now, we have moved them. Now 260 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:12,480 we have lots of service running in the cloud. Now is where the work 261 00:18:12,519 --> 00:18:18,240 actually begins to to migrate some of that those workloads off the machines that they're 262 00:18:18,319 --> 00:18:21,839 running on. They could be like just hey, we're running on a we're 263 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,640 running a sequel server on a VM. Well, dude, why you could 264 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:30,440 use database database service same thing except no VM that do you know? The 265 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:34,680 problems aren't always our fault, right one of the but you know, usually 266 00:18:34,759 --> 00:18:40,359 there's something that we can do to remedy the situation. But one of the 267 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:45,720 problems that I had recently was that Microsoft was changing the IP address of a 268 00:18:45,759 --> 00:18:49,079 web app on me without telling me they were going to do that. Had 269 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:52,680 no notification except that, you know, somebody tweeted me and said, hey, 270 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:57,279 this site's down. And when you go and look oh that IP address, 271 00:18:57,319 --> 00:19:03,440 the A record is different, and so yeah, yeah, I guess 272 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:07,200 I have to fix it in DNS. I wrote a little I wrote a 273 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:11,119 little PowerShell app. I know that I can fix that in another way. 274 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:15,400 But in the meantime, I have this PowerShell app that I wrote that runs 275 00:19:15,599 --> 00:19:22,960 against dot net rocks and other websites that I have and tests for content that 276 00:19:22,799 --> 00:19:26,359 I know is going to be there. Yeah. So that's running once an 277 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:30,839 hour and just in a script on my machine. Yeah, well that works. 278 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:37,039 It's emails the way if dot rocks is down. Yeah, that's one 279 00:19:37,079 --> 00:19:40,640 way. I'm sure there are other ways, but you know, you use 280 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:44,279 the tools that you know before you dive into the tools that you don't know. 281 00:19:44,799 --> 00:19:48,359 Yeah. Well, nowadays we have enterprises and things that are ready to 282 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:52,400 move to the cloud. Again. It's it's weird for someone like me who 283 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:56,000 has been in the cloud since the very beginning. Means I have well, 284 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:59,000 not the twenty years of experience that's going to be hard, but at least 285 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:03,599 the plug ten plus now right, and now I'm talking to companies that have 286 00:20:03,839 --> 00:20:08,200 never touched it because you know, reasons, because compliancy, because of you 287 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:11,359 know, it's public sector and it's been difficult and we haven't been able to 288 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:18,480 move right and now they're getting there and they're moving into this huge enterprise grade 289 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:25,880 platform which has everything and everything extra. When we started using Windows Azure in 290 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:27,920 the beginning as it was called Windows, it's called Windows in the beginning, 291 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,079 right, it had like five services. That was that was it. That 292 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:34,359 was that was all you could do. No VM, no VM. Even 293 00:20:34,519 --> 00:20:38,400 you only had a huge post of service. Was the only thing you could 294 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:44,880 do. So it's it's really interesting to see these people who are coming into 295 00:20:45,039 --> 00:20:48,799 this now and haven't been part of the journey. It's harder for them, 296 00:20:48,799 --> 00:20:51,279 I think. I mean, there's an upside to being in early that you 297 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:55,039 got to see the pieces built, although you also went through all the convulsions 298 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:59,440 of the sure getting because they made new ones. Yeah, at the same 299 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:03,079 time, like in New now with stuff like those Migration wizard things seem to 300 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:07,200 make life easier. But you ever look at the portal, like that's a 301 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:11,200 lot of stuff. There's a lot of stuff, all the stuff. It 302 00:21:11,279 --> 00:21:17,279 is overwhelming and I'm so surprised at you know, the questions that you get, 303 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:21,960 the comments that you get, because obviously I've lost that perspective. I 304 00:21:22,039 --> 00:21:25,000 know how the sausage was made, how the cookies were baked. I know 305 00:21:25,079 --> 00:21:29,400 all of it. I know why Azure Monitor is working the way it does. 306 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:33,200 You know how the wormwood was mixed, my friend, I know exactly 307 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:37,880 how the wormwood was mixed, and it was strong. It was very very 308 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:42,880 strong. Yeah. Yeah, it's good to be able to lead them through 309 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:47,680 that, but it definitely I feels like it's a better time now. There 310 00:21:47,759 --> 00:21:53,039 is a whole conversation going on around repatriation of I'm take people taking stuff back 311 00:21:53,079 --> 00:21:56,960 out of the class. Yeah, I've heard a couple of cases of that, 312 00:21:57,039 --> 00:22:02,079 and some some kind of notable that that somebody like wrote up a post 313 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:03,599 about it then said hey, we were going to use the cloud, and 314 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:07,799 we started doing this and then we just realized how expensive and crazy it was 315 00:22:07,839 --> 00:22:11,119 and we just moved away again. Like Okay. When I look at that, 316 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,599 I go like, okay, so it's my specific expertise to help companies 317 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:18,759 just make the cloud better. Okay, So I'm looking at what you're doing, 318 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:22,799 and I just realized that you did not approach this in a responsible way. 319 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:27,000 You did not approach it in a learning way. You didn't have the 320 00:22:27,559 --> 00:22:33,440 people to do this, and now you're like finding that it's not pay per 321 00:22:33,599 --> 00:22:37,000 use, it's not you know, optimized, and it's costing you too much, 322 00:22:37,039 --> 00:22:38,680 and it's not secure and all the things that you're saying that it's not 323 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,160 it's because you didn't do your homework. And now you're backing out. Now 324 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:48,599 you're backing out and blaming the cloud. Hm, that's not fair. So, 325 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:52,559 I mean, I was trying to work through reasonable that seemed to me 326 00:22:52,599 --> 00:22:55,480 seems the most likely scenario. You shipped a bunch of vms up in the 327 00:22:55,480 --> 00:23:00,119 cloud. Oddly enough, they cost money, no surprise. Yeah, now 328 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,240 you're going to ship a bunch of vms back out of the cloud again where 329 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:07,319 moving up to services and all those other options. You know, you could 330 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,039 have tuned this better, But I'm trying to find better scenarios. I mean, 331 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,039 one would argue, if you're running a twenty four to seven knock, 332 00:23:14,079 --> 00:23:18,119 if you already have around the clock SIS submits and so forth, your more 333 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,680 or less could be operating your own clouds, So why are you using somebody 334 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:27,680 else's That the rest of the arguments become so much harder, Like I'm just 335 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,279 trying to figure out what the cloud isn't good at that you could point it 336 00:23:30,319 --> 00:23:33,519 a service and go, yeah, maybe that's better to keep on premp. 337 00:23:33,799 --> 00:23:37,039 I don't know. I mean, if it's the only thing I come down 338 00:23:37,079 --> 00:23:40,920 to is if the service has, you know, very very strict restrictions on 339 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:45,039 data governance and where you can where you can host it, and where you 340 00:23:45,039 --> 00:23:48,279 can run into But that's a feature, that's a yeah, And I feel 341 00:23:48,319 --> 00:23:52,599 like Microsoft is done a huge amount of work on that, Like if all 342 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,880 you got to do is search, when it comes down to I need to 343 00:23:55,880 --> 00:24:00,039 comply with this set of regulations for this country. They have ratifications in place 344 00:24:00,079 --> 00:24:04,359 for it. Yeah, yes, and they support a lot of the services 345 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:08,000 today support such things as bring your own key and so forth. Right, 346 00:24:08,039 --> 00:24:12,519 so you have your own, your very own key that that no one can 347 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:18,279 decrypt, not even Microsoft. So it's encrypted with your key except as your 348 00:24:18,279 --> 00:24:22,440 secretary because he left it on your desktop. Oh yeah, post posted underneath 349 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:26,079 the desk exactly. And there and therein lies the bigger joke, which is 350 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:32,200 arguably like I have seen a small third party data center get rated by the 351 00:24:32,279 --> 00:24:37,519 FBI because of one of their customers, and they took and the FBI took 352 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:41,680 all of the racks, and so I had that customer that was in there 353 00:24:41,039 --> 00:24:45,960 and their machine. They would get their machines back two years later, but 354 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,680 in the meantime they're at the corridor. You know, the judge didn't understand 355 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:52,720 the ratifications what they were doing. They cleared that building. You can't do 356 00:24:52,759 --> 00:25:00,720 that with the cloud data center. A nobody's got enough for cliffs like getting 357 00:25:00,759 --> 00:25:03,119 access to that data center. Are those machines going to be even worth anything 358 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,559 in two years? That's another question. That was the thing. It was 359 00:25:07,519 --> 00:25:10,440 largely destructed. It was with the destruction of the business that we couldn't replace 360 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:14,440 them. It's crazy because of one customer. Wow, yeah, and yeah 361 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:17,559 terrible. So you know that in that sense, I said, you know, 362 00:25:17,599 --> 00:25:21,079 the upside to the cloud is go ahead, knock yourself out, like 363 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:25,559 it's just at that scale, that's not possible. Great, agreed, But 364 00:25:25,599 --> 00:25:32,160 we were we were there before that, before such time where companies were legitimately 365 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:34,799 legitimately they were saying that we can't go to the cloud because it's not secure 366 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,839 enough. We don't know that it's secure, we haven't seen the evidence of 367 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:41,680 that. We also don't know that it's compliant. That was like a blocker, 368 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,359 an adoption blocker in the early days. Nowadays people go to the cloud 369 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:49,039 because it's more secure. Yeah, and nothing you ever do is going to 370 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:52,680 change that, you know, and arguabily it always has been. It's just 371 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,640 that now you can't deny it. Yeah, yeah, true, fair enough. 372 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,480 Yeah, And we used to say that do you think that you're security 373 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,319 team who actually goes to bed at night and works eight hours a day is 374 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:10,920 more vigilant than you know, a team of hundreds of people that are watching 375 00:26:11,279 --> 00:26:15,759 what's going on behind the scenes and Azure twenty four to seven. It's just 376 00:26:15,799 --> 00:26:18,480 there's just no way. It's it's not possible. There's no way. And 377 00:26:18,519 --> 00:26:23,880 somebody was saying, it's funny. There was a networking company that was saying 378 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:30,039 that, well, basically the slur that that you know, networking for Microsoft, 379 00:26:30,079 --> 00:26:32,559 well it's not the best product, it's not you know, I don't 380 00:26:32,599 --> 00:26:33,799 know that it's the most secure, and so forth. I was like, 381 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,000 are you shitting me? You just pull that out of the air. You're 382 00:26:37,039 --> 00:26:41,880 talking about the company that probably has the most of network of anyone on the 383 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:47,640 planet, with with like the best teams that do networking and networking security that 384 00:26:47,799 --> 00:26:52,319 even exists at all, and you're just you're just blurting out there that you 385 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,599 think that their product is not good enough based on what dude? Yeah right, 386 00:26:56,160 --> 00:27:00,319 yeah, I can't wait to hear your analysis in detail. I please 387 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:04,039 have it at my desk by nine o'clock tomorrow morning, exactly. Pass on 388 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:10,880 stunt Kirk out. But it's a it is, without a doubt, an 389 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,480 extremely hard problem. Yes, and gentlemen, we should stop at this moment 390 00:27:14,599 --> 00:27:21,319 for this very important message, and we're back. It's done in rocks. 391 00:27:21,319 --> 00:27:25,039 I'm Richard Campbell, let's Carl Franklin, and we're talking to our friend Mangus 392 00:27:25,039 --> 00:27:29,559 Martins and about it his work in the cloud, and we you mentioned it 393 00:27:29,599 --> 00:27:34,680 briefly at the top, but certainly the Global Azure move event is a thing 394 00:27:34,759 --> 00:27:37,440 coming up in about another month, right, it's in April, Yeah, 395 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:44,920 April eighteen to through twenty. Is what's happening this time, And it's been 396 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,039 going on for a while now. It's Global azer is a thing. Lot 397 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:52,680 Lasher dot net is a thing that has been around for quite some time. 398 00:27:53,359 --> 00:28:00,200 And what it really is more than ten years, it's been twelve, so 399 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:06,759 really what it is, it's I guess it's instigation on learning, instigation on 400 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:11,039 a global scale. If you will, we just hang out together and run 401 00:28:11,079 --> 00:28:15,400 this event everyone at once, and everyone is. Any organizer of a community 402 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:19,559 meet up anywhere who wants to learn about Ashure, they simply just register their 403 00:28:19,599 --> 00:28:25,119 event as well on the same site. And the idea is that they can 404 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:29,920 then benefit and their attendees can then benefit from the shared sponsorships that we get, 405 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,400 for example, from Microsoft. We get ASHU passes from Microsoft, and 406 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,599 if they need some, they can get them through us. So we just 407 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,799 do it all at the same time. Nice and it does speak too. 408 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:45,720 I think a huge topic here, which is learning to right size the utilization 409 00:28:45,759 --> 00:28:49,440 of Azure to get out of the VM world and into the services world and 410 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:55,000 into what it could be a platform piece like the rethinking of the way you 411 00:28:55,039 --> 00:28:59,759 provide services to your company. Absolutely right. We didn't even know what we 412 00:28:59,759 --> 00:29:03,359 were starting. When Global Azure did start. We had no idea what was 413 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:07,599 going to happen or what we what we found. If you will, you 414 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:11,839 know, they say that innovation is just taking two pre existing ideas and combining 415 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,400 them in a new way that no one ever thought of yet. So I 416 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:19,799 guess we did community and the Globe because we just said, hey, how 417 00:29:19,799 --> 00:29:22,759 about you guys do an event at the same time as we do, And 418 00:29:22,799 --> 00:29:26,319 then more and more people like, hey, you also want to join, 419 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,440 and you and you, and I posted that thing internally at Microsoft for the 420 00:29:30,559 --> 00:29:33,680 MVPs, there is an alias called the for Azure MVPs. I posted it 421 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:37,160 there. I said, Hey, a bunch of us are doing this community 422 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:41,880 events on this one day, you want to join, and ca boom. 423 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:47,599 It was like an understatement. I think it was like almost one hundred locations 424 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:52,559 the first year we did it, so apparently we found a potential that nobody 425 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,200 knew would be there. Yeah, that's kind of cool. There is noise. 426 00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:00,680 So how big is it now? Well, it took a huge bump 427 00:30:02,079 --> 00:30:07,640 during the pandemic of this section. Yeah, it's an important topic to cover. 428 00:30:07,839 --> 00:30:11,160 That community took a huge, you know, whack on the head, 429 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:18,160 and a lot of people just stopped doing community and there weren't enough other people 430 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:23,880 coming into doing community because you were simply not allowed to have meetups TOLT. 431 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:29,559 Yeah. Yeah, but just before twenty nineteen was our largest year, and 432 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,599 that year I think we were around three hundred and thirty six locations at the 433 00:30:33,599 --> 00:30:37,759 same time. Wow, which is huge. I don't know of any any 434 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:44,160 larger community event than that. And and what's one thing that I find is 435 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:48,400 amusing is if you would aggregate all the community events of the same kind that 436 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:55,039 are called global something in you know, boot camp, there's there's AI, 437 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:59,160 there's DevOps, there's plenty of them, even a couple coming out from Microsoft 438 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:03,279 that are using the same naming standard. We were the first ones to ever 439 00:31:03,359 --> 00:31:08,200 do a global something boot Camp, Global Azure, Azure boot Camp as it 440 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:12,359 were. Nowadays there's tons of them doing the same kind of thing. So 441 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:18,200 I guess we showed to the world that it is possible to do community activism 442 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:22,359 on a global scale, and now kind of everyone does that. Yeah, 443 00:31:22,359 --> 00:31:25,759 I'm thinking net comp which is very much around the world kind of thing. 444 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:30,960 But I do think it came after the the Azure Global Yeah, well, 445 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,119 it's it's fine a new idea though, I mean, no, you know, 446 00:31:33,319 --> 00:31:37,640 the Internet kind of encourages us to do that, you know, it 447 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:41,759 really does. Well, you think about the original RDS in the nineties doing 448 00:31:41,759 --> 00:31:45,279 the simul past events right really before the Internet was even up for that, 449 00:31:45,279 --> 00:31:51,319 there were going to say accept no Internet. Yeah that was when we had 450 00:31:51,359 --> 00:31:56,400 regions and we directed something weird. Yeah yeah, those funny titles of art. 451 00:31:56,559 --> 00:32:02,880 Yeah yeah. I do think the interaction between the sissigmin and the DEV 452 00:32:04,079 --> 00:32:08,599 around right sizing resources here about you know that because on one hand, I 453 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:14,039 know, as the sissidmin, Hey these vms are running all the time, 454 00:32:14,079 --> 00:32:16,359 but they're not actually busy, like how does this break apart? But you've 455 00:32:16,359 --> 00:32:21,200 got to interact with the dev to say, can you give me a measure 456 00:32:21,279 --> 00:32:24,079 to know when to dial something down and to dial it up for what we 457 00:32:24,079 --> 00:32:29,359 can move to a service. And so you're thinking, I think mostly about 458 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:35,440 things such as you know, CPU or utilization or those kinds of things. 459 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,359 What I even I even include a third role in this conversation normally, And 460 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:42,279 I stated, it has to start there. It has to start with what 461 00:32:42,319 --> 00:32:46,640 the business people wants to measure. What actually is a measurable something for the 462 00:32:46,799 --> 00:32:51,079 for the industry for what we are doing. Is it number of sales? 463 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:53,359 Is it, you know, a number of users? Is it a number 464 00:32:53,359 --> 00:32:58,920 of What is it that that makes the day for the business owner in this 465 00:32:59,039 --> 00:33:04,200 context? And I always say that you start by measuring that you don't put 466 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,119 anything out there. You don't put anything in the cloud unless you have a 467 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:12,240 measurement that satisfies that what they are, what the suits, the being counters, 468 00:33:12,279 --> 00:33:15,000 they excel people what they are, what they are asking for. That's 469 00:33:15,039 --> 00:33:17,880 what we really want to see. And if we can have that on a 470 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:24,200 dashboard in the beginning right arguably before the workload moved, would be nice. 471 00:33:24,519 --> 00:33:28,160 Exactly, that would be the best. That would be the absolute best. 472 00:33:28,319 --> 00:33:31,680 And then we can actually see that trend line over time and they can understand 473 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:37,000 and that that I think is the most important. And of course then then 474 00:33:37,079 --> 00:33:40,960 comes you know, CPU percentage and memory usage and other things that are Yeah, 475 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:49,240 I appreciate that those are very abstract measures where we're yeah, cost of 476 00:33:49,319 --> 00:33:53,000 transaction, value of transaction, like those kinds. I'm an email I did 477 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:58,279 a lot of e commerce work. Yeah, we made the dashboard that showed 478 00:33:58,279 --> 00:34:00,640 when the website was faster, we made more money for customer. Yeah, 479 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:06,839 which which needle is it that moves the business? That's what we want to 480 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,920 note that if I can get a CFO excited, I can get more budget. 481 00:34:10,199 --> 00:34:15,960 That's correct. And also you won't have you won't have that surprise conversation 482 00:34:15,159 --> 00:34:19,440 in the future where it's like, why is our costing this much? We 483 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:21,920 didn't think it was going to cost this much. Oh, we're backing out 484 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:23,480 of the cloud, We're moving away. This is not what we expected. 485 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:28,320 Well, I also feel like we did not measure stuff on prem Well, 486 00:34:29,559 --> 00:34:32,599 that's true. The side effective azure is you are getting a monthly bill and 487 00:34:32,679 --> 00:34:39,199 that varies. It is and that yes, And it's hard because we have 488 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:45,719 been taught for decades that i T is a budget item. It's a huge 489 00:34:45,199 --> 00:34:49,320 piece piece of Yes, cost center on the budget. This like this, 490 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,639 this many this many millions and and that's it. And now there's no more 491 00:34:52,679 --> 00:34:57,360 conversation between the business and the i T until next year. We're going to 492 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:01,519 have the same conversation once. And it's really weird. And that's exactly what 493 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:06,719 how the cloud does not work. Yeah, maybe that's the real issue bank 494 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:12,159 This is that when I was directing it, I had an annual conversation with 495 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,360 finance about our spend for the year. That's right. And occasionally you go 496 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:19,159 in for exceptions because hey, we're making this big push and that I need 497 00:35:19,159 --> 00:35:21,320 to get a few more machines. And it's got a two month leap time, 498 00:35:21,679 --> 00:35:25,199 but that was an exception. But I had one year and typically four 499 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:29,320 year horizons, like we're going to renew the data set of contract, We're 500 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:31,880 going to buy new hardware. And these were two Comma spends right Like they 501 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:36,679 were big spends. So you would sit in the boardroom with the finance guys 502 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,440 and hammer this stuff out and we'd look at leasing deals and all these other 503 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:44,599 things, and all of that goes away with the cloud in exchange for a 504 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:50,079 monthly bill that kind of like your cell phone bill can surprise you. Yeah, 505 00:35:50,159 --> 00:35:52,519 well, when I turn on my phone in bangal Or, it costs 506 00:35:52,559 --> 00:35:57,960 five bucks a minute, and good luck trying to decipher and how well does 507 00:35:58,119 --> 00:36:01,119 az your advisor help with this kind of thing? And do you use it? 508 00:36:01,199 --> 00:36:06,599 And what is it? So I use azur Advisor to to look up 509 00:36:06,639 --> 00:36:08,760 the recommendations that are in there. Is like saying there are things like, 510 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:13,760 okay, you're you seem to be running a lot of virtual machines, would 511 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:19,480 you maybe consider using a reserved instance plan instead? And makes like are you 512 00:36:19,519 --> 00:36:21,719 going to keep these machines for a year? Are you going to keep them 513 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,159 for three years? Does that look like a thing you might do? Well? 514 00:36:24,559 --> 00:36:29,559 Then here's the recommendation that says you should be buying a reserved instance plan 515 00:36:30,559 --> 00:36:35,840 to get to get a really really big discount if you do. But that 516 00:36:36,079 --> 00:36:39,199 that really it sounds such a it sounds like such a technical question, right, 517 00:36:39,599 --> 00:36:44,079 but it really is not. This is this is a very very interesting 518 00:36:44,159 --> 00:36:47,320 question that I've been using for for quite some time to illustrate what the problem 519 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:52,800 really is. So you're saying, it sounds like I can just say next, 520 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,440 next, finish on this dialogue, and and and all of a sudden, 521 00:36:55,440 --> 00:37:00,440 I have this great discount because I now bought a reserved instance plan. 522 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,559 Wonderful. Okay, So now I just spent a couple one hundred thousand dollars 523 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,000 doing that. Because if we had a many we had many machines, maybe 524 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,880 I should ask, you know, the business people first. And now it 525 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:16,880 becomes this question of are we going to continue using vms as in infrastructure services 526 00:37:17,159 --> 00:37:21,760 or are we actually going to migrate the applications away from those vms and put 527 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:25,360 them on platform services instead. That conversation, are you going to have that 528 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:30,360 with a bunch of people who are business people and IT people. Well, 529 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:32,360 now you have to talk to the devs. Are the debvs ready to actually 530 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:37,920 move them out of the vms the applications. That is right, and that 531 00:37:37,119 --> 00:37:44,239 strategy is much much larger conversation than the question of should I activate reserve instances. 532 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:47,119 You're right, but it also makes more sense because I should have the 533 00:37:47,119 --> 00:37:50,239 finance guys in the room at that point, I should have dev room. 534 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:52,639 Now we're going to make a schedule. Hey, here are all the apps 535 00:37:53,199 --> 00:37:58,599 that are all running in vms right now. We can do one a quarter, 536 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:01,800 yes, these one, these ones that are ten down the line, 537 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:07,239 you can start buying years of reservedances for them, lowering their for sure. 538 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,840 For some of the other one absolutely one hundred percent. For some of them. 539 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:14,519 It is not even worth it to you know, that application, it's 540 00:38:14,559 --> 00:38:17,559 not so important, it's not that expensive, and rebuilding it to move off 541 00:38:17,559 --> 00:38:22,320 of it. That fix it, forget about it. That's not we'll just 542 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:24,920 we'll just leave that one. But the other one here is magnus. It's 543 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:29,280 getting it's getting those guys in the room. Like so often, we're doing 544 00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,800 our own job and not worry not recognizing that this is a strategic conversation where 545 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:36,880 all the players need to be in the room and making a plan. Well, 546 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:38,960 you know which person we haven't called out yet, And I would argue 547 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,800 that this is this is the most important person to have in the room for 548 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:49,599 this conversation. You want to know the human resource director. Interesting, Yes, 549 00:38:50,039 --> 00:38:53,079 I only call it HR when I've got problems. That's right. But 550 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:57,000 you have a problem, but you just don't know it yet. The problem. 551 00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:00,119 The problem is that you don't have enough people with enough skills in azure. 552 00:39:00,519 --> 00:39:04,360 You have wonderful, wonderful people in your business. They work there for 553 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:06,679 a long time. They know their stuff, they know it t they know 554 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:08,559 dev, they know all that, but they just don't know how to make 555 00:39:08,599 --> 00:39:14,159 an optimized, secure, compliant deployment of your application in the cloud. The 556 00:39:15,199 --> 00:39:21,320 factory. That's a that's that's that's exactly you have a factory pattern. Now 557 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:25,519 you have two problems, right, yeah, yes, So that means that 558 00:39:25,559 --> 00:39:30,880 you have to have a solid plan for either acquiring skilled people. Good luck 559 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:35,079 with that. Those the people who are really skilled with cloud stuff, they 560 00:39:35,079 --> 00:39:37,800 already have a job. But you also, yeah, they're busy. Uh. 561 00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:42,199 And then you have to also include uh, you know, the training 562 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:46,039 or retraining or upskilling or changing the skill of your your existing people so that 563 00:39:46,079 --> 00:39:51,199 they will understand how to actually use the cloud in a good way. I 564 00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:57,639 mean, I do debate the value of training getting skilled in migration because that's 565 00:39:57,639 --> 00:40:01,360 going to end, yes in x men years. It's operations that you want 566 00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:07,679 to be skilled. Operations, governance, the security and compliance pieces that are 567 00:40:07,679 --> 00:40:10,119 going to be so important. Maybe you didn't know that to begin with that 568 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:15,199 compliance was going to be important because you didn't realize. And then much later 569 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:17,719 you have an application running in the cloud and your customer says, we want 570 00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,199 to be we need to be compliant with so and so. Are you complied 571 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:23,119 with so and so? Otherwise we can't buy your service? And now compliance 572 00:40:23,199 --> 00:40:27,360 is very important, but it wasn't before, So now we have to go 573 00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,519 fix compliance after the fact. Is there any AI that Azure has, or 574 00:40:30,519 --> 00:40:37,119 maybe even chat GPT that can help us find problems and correct them. It's 575 00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:42,559 getting to that point you can't You can't release anything from Microsoft right now except 576 00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:45,320 going through like this AI wash first, right, is it AI enough? 577 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:50,559 If it's not a enough, they can they can get it. I mean, 578 00:40:50,599 --> 00:40:53,280 at the simplest level, you could ask chat GPT here, tell me 579 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:58,199 how to get a list of resources that haven't been used in the last six 580 00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:04,039 months and help help me deactivate them. Yeah, but imagine having a complete 581 00:41:04,079 --> 00:41:07,559 AI engine inside of your governance in your cloud use. I'm not so sure 582 00:41:07,559 --> 00:41:10,880 I want that. You'll ask it. You'll ask it. Hey, dude, 583 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:15,079 what can I like? How can I optimize my cost? And it's 584 00:41:15,119 --> 00:41:20,159 going to base that on your utilization, your usage, and it's going to 585 00:41:20,159 --> 00:41:23,199 base it on the experience of the entire usage of everyone using Yeah, that 586 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:27,760 I would like. I would like something to tell me what to do when 587 00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:32,119 I ask a question. But as we discovered in the better known framework story, 588 00:41:32,639 --> 00:41:37,639 you don't want something that just has agency and it's going to go do 589 00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,320 things on your behalf without you being involved. You know. No, No, 590 00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:44,400 that's not what we're talking about. I guess no, No, I'm 591 00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:46,920 talking about just help me figure this out. What am I doing wrong, 592 00:41:47,679 --> 00:41:52,320 you know, or why this application seems to be down. And then this 593 00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:54,639 also comes back to this age old question of what is an application in the 594 00:41:54,639 --> 00:41:59,159 cloud? If you have you know, my application consists of twenty five different 595 00:41:59,199 --> 00:42:02,920 resources, multiple different you know, locations around my subscriptions and various things. 596 00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:07,920 I want to be able to see that thing as one application because to me. 597 00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:12,679 It is one. So what is this wonderful AI you're talking about? 598 00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:15,400 I was getting to it. I mean Microsoft is getting to it. They're 599 00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:20,920 they're working all of these things into their their existing services. They're taking all 600 00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:22,840 the services that they had and just adding AI to them. If you yeah, 601 00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:25,760 we think it. Azure Advisor will have an LM and it's sooner or 602 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:30,440 later. Yeah, probably sooner. Yeah. Yeah, and Azure monitor and 603 00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:35,719 you know this has been this has been a while coming. Know that there 604 00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:39,559 was this Azure graph thing you could have. Yeah, so Azure graph is 605 00:42:39,559 --> 00:42:44,679 is just a little graph that explains that all the resources, all all the 606 00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:49,000 things you have. So that's one step in that direction. But Microsoft is 607 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,360 not taking multiple steps in that direction over the I believe over the next six 608 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:57,719 months is going to be an exciting time for monitoring Azure. Okay, fair 609 00:42:57,840 --> 00:42:59,960 enough. Yeah, do you think it's going to It's going to evolve. 610 00:43:00,039 --> 00:43:04,400 But I appreciate that probably they're not going to introduce new tools. I mean, 611 00:43:04,639 --> 00:43:07,079 haven't helped me if they do, but rather take the tools that we're 612 00:43:07,119 --> 00:43:14,000 already supposedly understand and add more LM to them right here and there. Yeah, 613 00:43:14,039 --> 00:43:16,880 that would be wonderful. Yeah, that's what we're going to get. 614 00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:22,559 I'm sure. I'm certain there's plenty of evidence to show that they're doing deep 615 00:43:22,679 --> 00:43:25,280 out Like you look at some of this other sentinels doing this day and its 616 00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:30,639 ability to look across multiple logs and events and so forth and say, hey, 617 00:43:30,679 --> 00:43:34,320 there's some unusual behavior here. As a composite of that view, that's 618 00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,199 a good summarizer engineer, Yeah, it is. And that argument is what 619 00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:40,119 we have been using for a while to talk about, for example, security 620 00:43:40,119 --> 00:43:45,079 in the cloud. Why is a company why are the huge cloud giants so 621 00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:51,000 good at security? Well, it's because they have a data pool of security 622 00:43:51,159 --> 00:43:54,719 data which is larger than anyone's. Yeah, you might be on your business, 623 00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:58,840 your tiny little business, which you think is huge, is very small 624 00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:01,920 in the cloud. It's being attacked right now, except you can't see that 625 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:07,360 based on the data you have. But Microsoft can see the attack on you, 626 00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:09,599 an attack on other people as a larger pattern, and they can tell 627 00:44:09,639 --> 00:44:14,480 you listen, this thing here that you don't perceive as an attack is in 628 00:44:14,519 --> 00:44:19,320 fact an attack, right, And that, you know, is why you 629 00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:22,920 want to have the power of that information size, that data size, and 630 00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:27,639 if you put an NLM on that then you have something. Yeah, you 631 00:44:27,679 --> 00:44:30,880 have some interesting things, So I am looking. It will be interesting to 632 00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:34,840 see what that's going on. Of course, we're recording this just before the 633 00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:37,760 MVP summit. You and I are going to be there, I think magnets 634 00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:42,360 so exactly. You know, there's some briefings along these lines we're not going 635 00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:45,880 to be allowed to talk about, right, Yeah, clearly there's motion there. 636 00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:52,280 This last year seemed like the hype cycle for especially from Microsoft, with 637 00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:55,519 the Copilot. Of all the things. I'm hopefully this is the year that 638 00:44:55,559 --> 00:45:00,599 we see a bunch of implemented stuff that can make our lives better. Yeah, 639 00:45:00,599 --> 00:45:02,719 you get a copilot, you get a call a copilot, everybody gets 640 00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:07,119 a co pilot. At one point I was poking some friends inside of the 641 00:45:07,119 --> 00:45:09,000 company. There was like, there's one hundred and eighty of these and most 642 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:12,920 of them should not see the light of day. Oh my god. No. 643 00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:17,840 Yeah, I can see why as well. But that's to that point. 644 00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:21,599 It feels a little bit in the beginning here, which is where we 645 00:45:21,639 --> 00:45:25,440 are in the beginning of the co pilot era, is that some of these 646 00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:31,440 are so bland or they really they really can't do anything yet that it's just 647 00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:34,960 like, if you're going to release a new version of whatever you have, 648 00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:37,719 it's going to have to have AI and a co pilot in it, or 649 00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:39,639 you're not shipping. So they are like shipping this tiny little thing that they 650 00:45:39,679 --> 00:45:45,039 call a co pilot for whatever, and it can't do anything yet. Yeah. 651 00:45:45,199 --> 00:45:47,440 But one of the reasons I mentioned Aspire at the top of the show 652 00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:52,599 is it's it's about cloud native behavior too, Like I'm hoping that our tools 653 00:45:52,760 --> 00:46:00,000 as devs get better at thinking helping us fall into cloud thinking. Yeah. 654 00:46:00,039 --> 00:46:06,119 Yes, it's not just that I identified that these are these are secure related 655 00:46:06,159 --> 00:46:08,320 strings or special tokens and so forth. Is that I'm also you know, 656 00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:13,840 pushing towards key vaults or where is the secure stur for this that we can 657 00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:17,519 read against like that sort of cloud native behavior so that we tend to do 658 00:46:17,559 --> 00:46:21,880 the right things that we're building software. Mm hmm, that's right, that's 659 00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:24,119 right. Well, I can't wait to see what happens. I hope so, 660 00:46:24,159 --> 00:46:29,079 because I don't know that it's true yet, we'll see, we'll see. 661 00:46:29,119 --> 00:46:30,480 I think it. I think it will be true because it seems like 662 00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:36,119 an actual good use case of of L MSM, so I saved the most 663 00:46:36,119 --> 00:46:40,920 important question for last. What flavors of ice cream? Does lofty soft serve? 664 00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:50,119 Serves? That? Definitely observes it serves chocolate, chocolate. Nice. 665 00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:53,440 I really can't pick on you for a crazy name with a name like pwop 666 00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:55,920 Yeah, yeah, where are you going to go with that? But I 667 00:46:55,960 --> 00:47:00,159 applaud your you know, being funny there with lofty soft. It's kind of 668 00:47:00,159 --> 00:47:06,079 a funny sounding name, but you won't forget it. Well, I just 669 00:47:06,079 --> 00:47:07,280 wanted to buy it a man that had dot com at the end. I 670 00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:13,639 wasn't too expensive. It's not a bad reasons the name you can get yeah, 671 00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:15,920 exactly. And people be like, lofty does that mean that because you're 672 00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:19,119 doing things in the cloud? I'm like, yeah, sure, yeah, 673 00:47:19,119 --> 00:47:22,880 that's exactly what that was. That was what I was going for all along. 674 00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:28,519 Actually, yes, all the truth is out Magnus now we know yep. 675 00:47:29,039 --> 00:47:34,079 Yeah. And Howard and meatballs at home. It was the last time 676 00:47:34,159 --> 00:47:37,039 Jessica whipped up a batch of those, so they're good as ever. You 677 00:47:37,079 --> 00:47:40,480 know you should you should pop over Yeah, be right there. It's been 678 00:47:40,519 --> 00:47:44,480 a long time, so we av that's all started at an or dev right 679 00:47:44,519 --> 00:47:47,159 yeah, that's what we met. Yeah, yeah, network keep seeing each 680 00:47:47,159 --> 00:47:52,480 other at every freaking conference around the world. I guess I would go to 681 00:47:52,679 --> 00:47:55,760 ordev just to attend to go to the bishop's arms and to come over for 682 00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:59,679 meatballs. I would do that. There you go. Well, I'm happy 683 00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:06,159 to have It's just we can't do it October November when it's freaking it's terrible. 684 00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:12,079 That's when you drink the wormwood my mouse. Sorry. I don't know 685 00:48:12,079 --> 00:48:14,760 if they serve that at the Green Lion, but I'd rather have scotch. 686 00:48:15,519 --> 00:48:19,519 Yeah, fair enough. Those are those are good bars. So is there 687 00:48:19,519 --> 00:48:22,599 anything else you want to talk about before we jump off? I mean, 688 00:48:22,079 --> 00:48:27,039 so, I'm really looking forward to the next steps on the cloud, and 689 00:48:27,119 --> 00:48:30,719 I guess we kind of all we already covered that. But I think that 690 00:48:30,199 --> 00:48:37,480 the new Horizons scenario, it's just to continue to make it easier for people 691 00:48:37,519 --> 00:48:40,760 to get it. And that's hard when you keep adding new things all the 692 00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:44,760 time. And I think, I think though, I think though, that 693 00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:49,400 we are we are at a place now where the cloud is It's hard to 694 00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:52,880 say it's stabilizing, but I think it is, and it seems to be. 695 00:48:52,519 --> 00:48:57,119 It seems to be and a challenge now is that now everyone is talking 696 00:48:57,159 --> 00:49:00,960 about AI. Okay, cool, we love AI. AIR services are cool? 697 00:49:00,039 --> 00:49:04,159 AIR services are great? I get it, I get it. Where 698 00:49:04,199 --> 00:49:07,599 are all the AI services running? They're running in the cloud. So what 699 00:49:08,639 --> 00:49:13,000 a company, and this is kind of a cautionary tail here, what a 700 00:49:13,039 --> 00:49:17,480 company really needs to understand is to use AI services with you know, oh 701 00:49:17,559 --> 00:49:21,559 we have we're going to put you know, all of our massive amounts of 702 00:49:21,639 --> 00:49:25,400 data and we're going to do our own copilot and whatnot. We're going to 703 00:49:25,679 --> 00:49:29,239 run it on our own data and so forth. Oh, that's good for 704 00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:32,559 you, except you now realize that you have to understand how to use the 705 00:49:32,559 --> 00:49:37,159 cloud platform as well, because you're moving petabytes of data into the cloud now, 706 00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:42,119 and they're security and governance and data transport and all the things and costs. 707 00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:46,079 But the conversation right now seems to be all about AI and how cool 708 00:49:46,119 --> 00:49:49,360 AI is and how we're going to use that. Well, guess what, 709 00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:52,519 there's a platform underneath called Azure that you may need to look into as well. 710 00:49:52,679 --> 00:49:57,159 So that's kind of a cautionary tale here, and all that AI excitement 711 00:49:57,239 --> 00:50:01,000 is that you actually need to understand the platform. Well, center enough sure, 712 00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:05,400 mangus. Thanks, it's been a pleasure catching up with you again. 713 00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:07,239 Yeah, thank you very much. All right, we'll talk to you next 714 00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:31,599 time on dot net rocks. Dot net Rocks is brought to you by Franklin's 715 00:50:31,679 --> 00:50:37,639 Net and produced by Pop Studios, a full service audio, video and post 716 00:50:37,639 --> 00:50:42,360 production facility located physically in New London, Connecticut, and of course in the 717 00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:47,320 cloud online at pwop dot com. Visit our website at d O T N 718 00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:52,920 E t R O c k S dot com for RSS feeds, downloads, 719 00:50:52,039 --> 00:50:57,320 mobile apps, comments, and access to the full archives going back to show 720 00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:01,119 number one, recorded in September two thousand into and make sure you check out 721 00:51:01,119 --> 00:51:05,800 our sponsors. They keep us in business. Now go write some code. 722 00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:15,079 See you next time. You got JAD metal vans by the Means Home, 723 00:51:15,599 --> 00:51:16,599 then my Texes