WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:04.280 Hey there, fellow travelers. I was recently a guest on the Exploring Tolkien 2 00:00:04.320 --> 00:00:07.919 podcast from the Onering dot com. We had a great discussion looking at some 3 00:00:07.960 --> 00:00:11.560 of the changes in Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings films and asking the question 4 00:00:12.160 --> 00:00:16.920 are we okay with this change? Some of the issues we discussed include do 5 00:00:17.079 --> 00:00:21.480 men want power more than immortality? Did Jackson screw up the last alliance of 6 00:00:21.519 --> 00:00:24.399 men and elves? And does the One Ring really have a mind of its 7 00:00:24.440 --> 00:00:28.519 own? I'm presenting a sample of our conversation here. To listen to the 8 00:00:28.559 --> 00:00:32.600 whole thing, subscribe to the Exploring Tolkien podcast by heading over to the Onering 9 00:00:32.679 --> 00:00:36.960 dot com, look for a link in the show notes, and now enjoy 10 00:00:37.000 --> 00:00:44.079 this sample from the Exploring Tolkien podcast. Next question, guys, we're going 11 00:00:44.159 --> 00:00:51.439 to hit is the Ring. And the Ring is rather anthropomorphized, which means 12 00:00:51.439 --> 00:00:56.240 made kind of human. It's given a personality, it's given, it's given 13 00:00:56.280 --> 00:00:58.880 the ability to make its own mind up in a way, So this one's 14 00:00:58.920 --> 00:01:03.280 called the Ring got a mind of its own, counts it into the fire, 15 00:01:08.799 --> 00:01:15.680 and the Ring of Power has a will of its own. The bottle 16 00:01:22.599 --> 00:01:42.159 is abandoned column, but something happened. Then the Ring did not intend pseudious 17 00:01:42.239 --> 00:01:51.319 pain is founds pain. The Rings got a mind of its own. In 18 00:01:51.319 --> 00:01:53.239 fact, it kind of has a voice of its own. That's what you 19 00:01:53.319 --> 00:01:59.079 heard much of the time through these clips in that when there's that whispering aj 20 00:01:59.200 --> 00:02:02.599 Gnas going on, right, you can hear that in the background. And 21 00:02:02.640 --> 00:02:07.799 then not only that, you hear Galadriel in the prologue talk about how the 22 00:02:07.920 --> 00:02:10.240 Ring has a will of its own. It did not expect something. So 23 00:02:10.479 --> 00:02:13.639 is this lore friendly? Is this what Tolkien intended? Well? I have 24 00:02:13.680 --> 00:02:15.719 four quotes to read from you, and I think Michael might have even more. 25 00:02:15.800 --> 00:02:16.919 Unless we're overlapping here. We haven't talked about it, so we're gonna 26 00:02:16.919 --> 00:02:20.520 find out. The first comes from the Fellowship of the Ring, from the 27 00:02:20.560 --> 00:02:23.680 chapter The Shadow of the Past, where Tolkien writes, or this is a 28 00:02:23.719 --> 00:02:27.960 Gandalf speaking to Proto. A ring of power looks after itself. Proto. 29 00:02:28.319 --> 00:02:31.120 It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. It was 30 00:02:31.159 --> 00:02:37.159 not Gollum Proto, but the Ring itself that decided things. The Ring left 31 00:02:37.199 --> 00:02:38.319 him, which right there, right, it has a will of its own. 32 00:02:38.360 --> 00:02:40.520 It's something did not expect that, you know, Gladro says in the 33 00:02:40.520 --> 00:02:45.120 prologue there and then here's another quote from the Soul Million of the Rings of 34 00:02:45.159 --> 00:02:47.159 Power in the Third Age, and Saramon deemed that the ring, which was 35 00:02:47.960 --> 00:02:52.840 Souron's would seek for its master as he became manifest once more. But if 36 00:02:52.840 --> 00:02:55.000 you were driven out again, then it would lie hid. So he's saying 37 00:02:55.000 --> 00:02:59.639 that the ring would seek for its master. And then in Unfinished Tales, 38 00:02:59.800 --> 00:03:04.319 in the Disaster of the gladden Fields, which talks about how Isildur lost the 39 00:03:04.400 --> 00:03:08.080 ring and was killed and how how was it the ring of Barry here I 40 00:03:08.120 --> 00:03:13.800 can't remember how there was one one like squire one page that survived all that. 41 00:03:13.879 --> 00:03:15.439 Anyway, that's the Disaster of the gladen Fields and the Unfinished Tails. 42 00:03:16.199 --> 00:03:20.879 He writes this, so passed the first victim of the malice of the masterless 43 00:03:20.960 --> 00:03:23.800 ring Isildur, second king of all the Dunadine, lord of Arnoor and Gondor, 44 00:03:23.879 --> 00:03:27.240 and in that age of the world the last. So the malice right 45 00:03:27.280 --> 00:03:32.360 malice is a personality trait. And then lastly, this is also from that 46 00:03:32.439 --> 00:03:37.039 same chapter in Unfinished Tales, the Disaster of the gladden Fields. Yet many 47 00:03:37.120 --> 00:03:39.400 have thought that the ferroscity and determination of their assault on Isildur was in part 48 00:03:39.479 --> 00:03:43.240 due to the Ring. It was little more than two years since it had 49 00:03:43.319 --> 00:03:46.520 left his hand, and though it was swiftly cooling, it was still heavy 50 00:03:46.560 --> 00:03:51.000 with his evil and seeking all means to return to its lord, as it 51 00:03:51.039 --> 00:03:55.360 did again when he recovered and was rehoused. So all those quotes seem to 52 00:03:55.800 --> 00:04:00.120 point to the fact that the Ring has some sort of will or intention. 53 00:04:01.039 --> 00:04:11.120 But but is it as much of a character as Jackson makes it in the 54 00:04:11.120 --> 00:04:15.919 Fellowship of the Ring? That's the question, because can can can can the 55 00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:17.759 Ring have its own personality? Can it have a voice? Can it speak 56 00:04:17.800 --> 00:04:24.800 to us? Can it have the ability to influence people? Or is it 57 00:04:24.920 --> 00:04:28.839 just Souron's will through the ring? Maybe? Michael, what do you think 58 00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:32.160 the only you we did overlap in one quote. I'll just read the other 59 00:04:32.199 --> 00:04:36.120 one, which is also that I have, which is supporting those ones that 60 00:04:36.160 --> 00:04:40.199 you brought up. But it actually uses the word will, and this is 61 00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:43.879 in the Silmar Million also of the Rings of Power in the Third Age, 62 00:04:44.399 --> 00:04:48.439 and much of the strength and will of Souron passed into that one ring. 63 00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:53.120 For the power of the Elvin rings was very great, and that's which should 64 00:04:53.160 --> 00:04:58.240 govern them, must be a thing of surpassing potency. So it actually says 65 00:04:58.360 --> 00:05:03.079 that the Suron's will will is passing into the ring. That means the wing 66 00:05:03.240 --> 00:05:09.319 ring has a will, not just power. So so there is a will. 67 00:05:09.480 --> 00:05:13.040 Now. Obviously it's not the same kind of will as sour On himself 68 00:05:13.040 --> 00:05:15.680 has. I mean, there are so many places where the ring, if 69 00:05:15.680 --> 00:05:20.360 it actually had a will, could have revealed It's like fro Do too and 70 00:05:20.439 --> 00:05:25.480 Sam like I'm thinking of in Mortar they're they're they're dressing up as orcs, 71 00:05:25.560 --> 00:05:29.519 as small goblins, and in the in the long line, and the ring 72 00:05:29.600 --> 00:05:31.639 could have done something. It's in mortar here is like this has been its 73 00:05:31.639 --> 00:05:38.319 whole purpose. Yeah, once excuse me, want to get back to its 74 00:05:38.360 --> 00:05:41.800 master, and this is the perfect time to betray them. There's plenty of 75 00:05:41.839 --> 00:05:46.040 other places like that where if the ring was like looking around like it was 76 00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:48.240 a person looking around it and going like what should I do now, and 77 00:05:48.600 --> 00:05:53.360 then acting on it, it would have done many more things than it could 78 00:05:53.560 --> 00:05:58.000 then than it did. So it does seem to have a will, kind 79 00:05:58.040 --> 00:06:00.160 of a passive will, almost like a magnetic will. Where it's trying to 80 00:06:00.199 --> 00:06:05.199 get back to sour On. But but there is a will there, And 81 00:06:05.680 --> 00:06:11.240 the question for me becomes all the whispering, like it actually has a voice 82 00:06:12.160 --> 00:06:15.079 in the movie, and that's what we never see. So we never see 83 00:06:15.079 --> 00:06:17.399 a voice in Tolkien from the Ring, at least I don't think so. 84 00:06:17.439 --> 00:06:24.079 I don't. We never hear any whispering, So obviously you're in cinema. 85 00:06:24.680 --> 00:06:28.879 Obviously, I think the Jackson team felt like it needed to emphasize the poll 86 00:06:28.959 --> 00:06:30.319 of the Ring. And the Ring does have a poll. It says so 87 00:06:30.399 --> 00:06:36.279 explicitly with Borimir for example, and and you know that it's not just temptation, 88 00:06:36.519 --> 00:06:41.079 but there's there's an actual draw. Obviously. We see it in spades 89 00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:44.920 with Gollum, we see it with Bilbo and the difficulty in letting go of 90 00:06:44.959 --> 00:06:47.240 the Ring or even knowing that he's not letting it up giving it up back 91 00:06:47.240 --> 00:06:51.040 in Hobbiton. So but doesn't have a voice, No, it does not. 92 00:06:51.199 --> 00:06:55.839 There's no time that I've found there were it actually could say anything and 93 00:06:55.920 --> 00:07:00.360 whisper to anyone. But maybe I'm maybe I missed something. So that's those 94 00:07:00.360 --> 00:07:02.399 are my thoughts before we get answered the questions what about you, John, 95 00:07:03.160 --> 00:07:08.920 how did you take that? The letter? So the whole question of the 96 00:07:09.000 --> 00:07:14.439 voice. So I was researching this one before we recorded on on Tolkien Gateway 97 00:07:15.199 --> 00:07:17.800 and just reading about, like reading about the Ring and it's past because there's 98 00:07:17.839 --> 00:07:24.920 so much I feel like there's so much ambiguity about what, like this question 99 00:07:25.319 --> 00:07:28.120 within it, like is it is? It? Is it just like sourn 100 00:07:28.199 --> 00:07:30.519 in there like we you know, you're putting himself in there? Or just 101 00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:33.360 does it become its own thing? I mean, the Ring is such a 102 00:07:33.360 --> 00:07:43.000 fascinating sort of thing that encompasses all of these big questions about what power actually 103 00:07:43.120 --> 00:07:46.319 is and how we make our will more quickly affect, you know, more 104 00:07:46.319 --> 00:07:50.199 efficient, more effective. It's like so it's so applicable to the modern age 105 00:07:50.199 --> 00:07:53.920 with all of our technology. It's like we just have rings all over the 106 00:07:53.959 --> 00:07:58.519 place, you know, and we're just doing all these things. But and 107 00:07:58.560 --> 00:08:03.480 it's almost like the Ring times is like a is like what we're starting to 108 00:08:03.480 --> 00:08:07.000 do with AI and these kinds of things, you know, taking the words 109 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:11.319 right in my mouth many it's like the Ring is the AI for more God. 110 00:08:11.040 --> 00:08:16.079 Yeah, yeah, yeah, Ersal, I mean well, and and 111 00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:20.839 I mean he does like it's like I know, with more Goth he told 112 00:08:20.920 --> 00:08:22.600 the one of the volumes of the History of Middle Earth is called more God's 113 00:08:22.639 --> 00:08:26.399 Ring because Tolkien made the point at one point that, like the whole world 114 00:08:26.720 --> 00:08:31.560 was more God's ring, right like he he sought to make it this tool 115 00:08:31.600 --> 00:08:37.840 of domination for himself, and more God became weaker and weaker as he poured 116 00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:46.519 his creative uh like life force into other other things of his making. His 117 00:08:46.720 --> 00:08:50.120 his power became like personally, his power became dispersed, and they were like 118 00:08:50.159 --> 00:08:54.600 extensions of him. Uh. I'm I'm kind of just like throwing all these 119 00:08:54.639 --> 00:08:58.120 ideas out there because I don't know that I have a settled a settled mind 120 00:08:58.360 --> 00:09:03.480 on this. But you know, here's you're a good company, because Tolkien 121 00:09:03.519 --> 00:09:07.120 didn't have a settle mind either. The one quote I did find from the 122 00:09:07.200 --> 00:09:09.960 letters was from letter two eleven about this, and he says, you cannot 123 00:09:11.039 --> 00:09:13.759 press the one ring too hard, for it is of course a mythical feature, 124 00:09:15.240 --> 00:09:18.639 even though the world of the Tales is conceived in more or less historical 125 00:09:18.759 --> 00:09:24.960 terms. So he's just even he himself isn't really coming down really particularly about 126 00:09:24.840 --> 00:09:31.039 what makes what kind of whale or sentience or whatever the Ring has, so 127 00:09:31.120 --> 00:09:33.480 all we can kind of go off of is his hints. The one core 128 00:09:33.679 --> 00:09:37.639 thing that I would point to that's very different frotween the books and the movie 129 00:09:39.080 --> 00:09:41.840 is the voice. There's never a voice described in the books, even though 130 00:09:41.840 --> 00:09:46.039 there's plenty of other things. The Wing Ring does, in fact leave people. 131 00:09:46.360 --> 00:09:50.039 So the whole funny bounce, the bouncing ring down there down the rock 132 00:09:50.600 --> 00:09:54.840 funny looking in one sense, but but it's like, because like what, 133 00:09:54.320 --> 00:09:58.399 like what is it expecting? Like it's got legs, it's gonna jump keep 134 00:09:58.440 --> 00:10:03.080 bouncing down forever? Yeah, but or what? But but it is it 135 00:10:03.120 --> 00:10:07.720 did. In fact, Gandalf even says it left for Bill. Yeah now, 136 00:10:07.799 --> 00:10:11.120 and let me riff off what you said it with John with Ai and 137 00:10:11.159 --> 00:10:13.919 the Ring. This this is what struck me in thinking about this is the 138 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:18.919 Ring is simply reflecting back or spitting back the input that it has. What 139 00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:22.240 is the input that it had or the data that it had. It's Souron's 140 00:10:22.279 --> 00:10:26.240 will and malice, right, he poured all that into the ring, So 141 00:10:26.279 --> 00:10:28.840 what is the ring going to going to have? It's going to have his 142 00:10:28.879 --> 00:10:33.159 will in his mouth because Saron can't create. He can't create a life. 143 00:10:33.159 --> 00:10:37.440 There's no life in the Ring. I think that's pretty well established that there's 144 00:10:37.440 --> 00:10:39.799 no way that he could create something new that has a will of its own. 145 00:10:41.159 --> 00:10:46.120 So somehow it has to be Souron's will. Now we can talk about 146 00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:48.399 the whole idea of the cinema thing. Let's get into that later. But 147 00:10:48.440 --> 00:10:50.159 I think the whole idea that it's it's it's like it's like AI, right, 148 00:10:50.200 --> 00:10:52.320 it only is going to spit back. It's only going to talk back 149 00:10:52.320 --> 00:10:54.320 to you what you've put into it. And so if you give it a 150 00:10:54.360 --> 00:10:58.279 bunch of crap, if you give it a bunch of uh of Siron's ideas 151 00:10:58.039 --> 00:11:01.360 of what is what is the good and right thing to do, then it's 152 00:11:01.360 --> 00:11:05.279 only going to spit back the whole thing. So are you suggesting, Jonathan 153 00:11:05.360 --> 00:11:07.879 that we should change the U r L of the One Ring dot com to 154 00:11:07.919 --> 00:11:13.639 be MORTORAI dot com? That's right, Either that or exploring Tolkien either way, 155 00:11:13.639 --> 00:11:18.559 I will all right, So let's look at it. Let's let's let's 156 00:11:18.559 --> 00:11:24.279 figure out let's dive into is it lore friendly? And I think this hinges 157 00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:26.840 on the fact of what we think about the voice, because I will say 158 00:11:26.879 --> 00:11:33.200 that the way it's portrayed is lore friendly all across the board except for the 159 00:11:33.320 --> 00:11:35.279 voice maybe. But here's the thing is, I don't think you can portray 160 00:11:35.320 --> 00:11:41.039 it as having a will of its own if it's just a completely inanimate object. 161 00:11:41.279 --> 00:11:43.639 When you when Tolkien writes about the ring, he can tell us what 162 00:11:43.679 --> 00:11:46.120 it is. He can, he can he can explain to us that it 163 00:11:46.120 --> 00:11:50.600 has a will that has mouse, But how do you portray that in the 164 00:11:50.639 --> 00:11:54.519 film as part of the evil that's trying to be overcome. Well, if 165 00:11:54.559 --> 00:11:56.759 it's just an inanimate ring that doesn't really do anything other than, you know, 166 00:11:58.159 --> 00:12:03.840 go make you go into the Middle Earth upside, it's hard to lend 167 00:12:03.840 --> 00:12:09.080 it that evil credibility, that evil authority. So I would say right now, 168 00:12:09.200 --> 00:12:13.240 yes, it is more friendly the way it was portrayed in Peter Jackson's 169 00:12:13.240 --> 00:12:18.399 film. If you enjoyed that sample, head on over to the Exploring Tolkien 170 00:12:18.440 --> 00:12:22.559 podcast to listen to the whole hour plus episode. The Tolkien Road will be 171 00:12:22.559 --> 00:12:26.360 back with another episode later this week. Until then, thanks for listening, 172 00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:28.559 and the Road goes ever on.