Hey there, fellow travelers. I was recently a guest on the Exploring Tolkien
podcast from the Onering dot com. We had a great discussion looking at some
of the changes in Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings films and asking the question
are we okay with this change? Some of the issues we discussed include do
men want power more than immortality? Did Jackson screw up the last alliance of
men and elves? And does the One Ring really have a mind of its
own? I'm presenting a sample of our conversation here. To listen to the
whole thing, subscribe to the Exploring Tolkien podcast by heading over to the Onering
dot com, look for a link in the show notes, and now enjoy
this sample from the Exploring Tolkien podcast. Next question, guys, we're going
to hit is the Ring. And the Ring is rather anthropomorphized, which means
made kind of human. It's given a personality, it's given, it's given
the ability to make its own mind up in a way, So this one's
called the Ring got a mind of its own, counts it into the fire,
and the Ring of Power has a will of its own. The bottle
is abandoned column, but something happened. Then the Ring did not intend pseudious
pain is founds pain. The Rings got a mind of its own. In
fact, it kind of has a voice of its own. That's what you
heard much of the time through these clips in that when there's that whispering aj
Gnas going on, right, you can hear that in the background. And
then not only that, you hear Galadriel in the prologue talk about how the
Ring has a will of its own. It did not expect something. So
is this lore friendly? Is this what Tolkien intended? Well? I have
four quotes to read from you, and I think Michael might have even more.
Unless we're overlapping here. We haven't talked about it, so we're gonna
find out. The first comes from the Fellowship of the Ring, from the
chapter The Shadow of the Past, where Tolkien writes, or this is a
Gandalf speaking to Proto. A ring of power looks after itself. Proto.
It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. It was
not Gollum Proto, but the Ring itself that decided things. The Ring left
him, which right there, right, it has a will of its own.
It's something did not expect that, you know, Gladro says in the
prologue there and then here's another quote from the Soul Million of the Rings of
Power in the Third Age, and Saramon deemed that the ring, which was
Souron's would seek for its master as he became manifest once more. But if
you were driven out again, then it would lie hid. So he's saying
that the ring would seek for its master. And then in Unfinished Tales,
in the Disaster of the gladden Fields, which talks about how Isildur lost the
ring and was killed and how how was it the ring of Barry here I
can't remember how there was one one like squire one page that survived all that.
Anyway, that's the Disaster of the gladen Fields and the Unfinished Tails.
He writes this, so passed the first victim of the malice of the masterless
ring Isildur, second king of all the Dunadine, lord of Arnoor and Gondor,
and in that age of the world the last. So the malice right
malice is a personality trait. And then lastly, this is also from that
same chapter in Unfinished Tales, the Disaster of the gladden Fields. Yet many
have thought that the ferroscity and determination of their assault on Isildur was in part
due to the Ring. It was little more than two years since it had
left his hand, and though it was swiftly cooling, it was still heavy
with his evil and seeking all means to return to its lord, as it
did again when he recovered and was rehoused. So all those quotes seem to
point to the fact that the Ring has some sort of will or intention.
But but is it as much of a character as Jackson makes it in the
Fellowship of the Ring? That's the question, because can can can can the
Ring have its own personality? Can it have a voice? Can it speak
to us? Can it have the ability to influence people? Or is it
just Souron's will through the ring? Maybe? Michael, what do you think
the only you we did overlap in one quote. I'll just read the other
one, which is also that I have, which is supporting those ones that
you brought up. But it actually uses the word will, and this is
in the Silmar Million also of the Rings of Power in the Third Age,
and much of the strength and will of Souron passed into that one ring.
For the power of the Elvin rings was very great, and that's which should
govern them, must be a thing of surpassing potency. So it actually says
that the Suron's will will is passing into the ring. That means the wing
ring has a will, not just power. So so there is a will.
Now. Obviously it's not the same kind of will as sour On himself
has. I mean, there are so many places where the ring, if
it actually had a will, could have revealed It's like fro Do too and
Sam like I'm thinking of in Mortar they're they're they're dressing up as orcs,
as small goblins, and in the in the long line, and the ring
could have done something. It's in mortar here is like this has been its
whole purpose. Yeah, once excuse me, want to get back to its
master, and this is the perfect time to betray them. There's plenty of
other places like that where if the ring was like looking around like it was
a person looking around it and going like what should I do now, and
then acting on it, it would have done many more things than it could
then than it did. So it does seem to have a will, kind
of a passive will, almost like a magnetic will. Where it's trying to
get back to sour On. But but there is a will there, And
the question for me becomes all the whispering, like it actually has a voice
in the movie, and that's what we never see. So we never see
a voice in Tolkien from the Ring, at least I don't think so.
I don't. We never hear any whispering, So obviously you're in cinema.
Obviously, I think the Jackson team felt like it needed to emphasize the poll
of the Ring. And the Ring does have a poll. It says so
explicitly with Borimir for example, and and you know that it's not just temptation,
but there's there's an actual draw. Obviously. We see it in spades
with Gollum, we see it with Bilbo and the difficulty in letting go of
the Ring or even knowing that he's not letting it up giving it up back
in Hobbiton. So but doesn't have a voice, No, it does not.
There's no time that I've found there were it actually could say anything and
whisper to anyone. But maybe I'm maybe I missed something. So that's those
are my thoughts before we get answered the questions what about you, John,
how did you take that? The letter? So the whole question of the
voice. So I was researching this one before we recorded on on Tolkien Gateway
and just reading about, like reading about the Ring and it's past because there's
so much I feel like there's so much ambiguity about what, like this question
within it, like is it is? It? Is it just like sourn
in there like we you know, you're putting himself in there? Or just
does it become its own thing? I mean, the Ring is such a
fascinating sort of thing that encompasses all of these big questions about what power actually
is and how we make our will more quickly affect, you know, more
efficient, more effective. It's like so it's so applicable to the modern age
with all of our technology. It's like we just have rings all over the
place, you know, and we're just doing all these things. But and
it's almost like the Ring times is like a is like what we're starting to
do with AI and these kinds of things, you know, taking the words
right in my mouth many it's like the Ring is the AI for more God.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Ersal, I mean well, and and
I mean he does like it's like I know, with more Goth he told
the one of the volumes of the History of Middle Earth is called more God's
Ring because Tolkien made the point at one point that, like the whole world
was more God's ring, right like he he sought to make it this tool
of domination for himself, and more God became weaker and weaker as he poured
his creative uh like life force into other other things of his making. His
his power became like personally, his power became dispersed, and they were like
extensions of him. Uh. I'm I'm kind of just like throwing all these
ideas out there because I don't know that I have a settled a settled mind
on this. But you know, here's you're a good company, because Tolkien
didn't have a settle mind either. The one quote I did find from the
letters was from letter two eleven about this, and he says, you cannot
press the one ring too hard, for it is of course a mythical feature,
even though the world of the Tales is conceived in more or less historical
terms. So he's just even he himself isn't really coming down really particularly about
what makes what kind of whale or sentience or whatever the Ring has, so
all we can kind of go off of is his hints. The one core
thing that I would point to that's very different frotween the books and the movie
is the voice. There's never a voice described in the books, even though
there's plenty of other things. The Wing Ring does, in fact leave people.
So the whole funny bounce, the bouncing ring down there down the rock
funny looking in one sense, but but it's like, because like what,
like what is it expecting? Like it's got legs, it's gonna jump keep
bouncing down forever? Yeah, but or what? But but it is it
did. In fact, Gandalf even says it left for Bill. Yeah now,
and let me riff off what you said it with John with Ai and
the Ring. This this is what struck me in thinking about this is the
Ring is simply reflecting back or spitting back the input that it has. What
is the input that it had or the data that it had. It's Souron's
will and malice, right, he poured all that into the ring, So
what is the ring going to going to have? It's going to have his
will in his mouth because Saron can't create. He can't create a life.
There's no life in the Ring. I think that's pretty well established that there's
no way that he could create something new that has a will of its own.
So somehow it has to be Souron's will. Now we can talk about
the whole idea of the cinema thing. Let's get into that later. But
I think the whole idea that it's it's it's like it's like AI, right,
it only is going to spit back. It's only going to talk back
to you what you've put into it. And so if you give it a
bunch of crap, if you give it a bunch of uh of Siron's ideas
of what is what is the good and right thing to do, then it's
only going to spit back the whole thing. So are you suggesting, Jonathan
that we should change the U r L of the One Ring dot com to
be MORTORAI dot com? That's right, Either that or exploring Tolkien either way,
I will all right, So let's look at it. Let's let's let's
figure out let's dive into is it lore friendly? And I think this hinges
on the fact of what we think about the voice, because I will say
that the way it's portrayed is lore friendly all across the board except for the
voice maybe. But here's the thing is, I don't think you can portray
it as having a will of its own if it's just a completely inanimate object.
When you when Tolkien writes about the ring, he can tell us what
it is. He can, he can he can explain to us that it
has a will that has mouse, But how do you portray that in the
film as part of the evil that's trying to be overcome. Well, if
it's just an inanimate ring that doesn't really do anything other than, you know,
go make you go into the Middle Earth upside, it's hard to lend
it that evil credibility, that evil authority. So I would say right now,
yes, it is more friendly the way it was portrayed in Peter Jackson's
film. If you enjoyed that sample, head on over to the Exploring Tolkien
podcast to listen to the whole hour plus episode. The Tolkien Road will be
back with another episode later this week. Until then, thanks for listening,
and the Road goes ever on.