1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:04,040 So what do you hope the viewer gained by seeing the movie. Well, 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:09,880 I think there's something going on we can't explain ordinary scientific methods. Social worker 3 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:13,240 challenged me. She said, well, have you ever asked any of your 4 00:00:13,279 --> 00:00:18,199 patients? And I said no, So she said, well, go and 5 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:21,440 do it for me. So I did, and the third patient I talked 6 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:30,480 to had a near death experience. Welcome to another edition of the Chicks on 7 00:00:30,519 --> 00:00:34,719 the Right podcast. Very excited because we have been talking about the film After 8 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:38,439 Death for a couple of weeks now. We're huge fans of the film and 9 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:42,799 actually huge fans of our special guests that we have with us today, Doctor 10 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:47,880 Michael Sabam. I hope I'm saying that right, because I know it looks 11 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:54,759 like Sam. And we're very excited to have you specifically as our guest, 12 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:59,439 because your appearance in the film was actually our favorite, so we were hoping 13 00:00:59,439 --> 00:01:02,200 that we would get to talk with you, and I think one of the 14 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:07,159 reasons that you are our favorite is because you were initially a skeptic about this 15 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:10,879 whole topic, and so we'll talk to you about that, but first we 16 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:14,159 want to let people know exactly who you are and for those of you who 17 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:18,640 haven't seen the film. Doctor Sabam is a cardiologist in private practice and on 18 00:01:18,879 --> 00:01:23,920 staff at Northside in Saint Joe's Hospital in Atlanta, Georgia. You have a 19 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:27,519 book. Your first was Recollections of Death, a medical investigation, and a 20 00:01:27,599 --> 00:01:34,319 second book, Light and Death, One doctor's fascinating account of near death experiences, 21 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:37,599 and that is all based on your work founding the Atlanta Study, which 22 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:42,799 is the first comprehensive investigation of its kind into NDEs. So you've been featured 23 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:48,599 on several television programs. You're obviously very accomplished, and yet you were a 24 00:01:48,719 --> 00:01:53,760 skeptic going into this. What changed your mind? What made you a believer 25 00:01:53,879 --> 00:01:57,400 in near death experiences? Well? I had never heard of these experiences before 26 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:02,200 until I was said by cardiology fellowship at the University of Florida. And this 27 00:02:02,319 --> 00:02:07,280 was in nineteen seventy five, probably long before either one of you were born. 28 00:02:07,319 --> 00:02:09,800 That's very kind. Yeah, not true, we were born in the 29 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:15,280 seventies. It's very kind. Yeah. Anyway, I was shown Raymond Moody's 30 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:20,400 book Life After Life by a psychiatric social worker I was working with, and 31 00:02:20,439 --> 00:02:24,159 she was going to be giving a talk at a Methodist Church on near death 32 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:29,680 experiences at the time, and Moody's book had only been out for a few 33 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:34,560 months at that time. That was his first edition book. And when I 34 00:02:34,599 --> 00:02:38,319 read the book, I thought it was hogwash. I'd never heard of these 35 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:44,479 experiences before. I actually went around the hospital asking some of the older physicians 36 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:50,000 whether they had and they said no, and so I was very skeptical of 37 00:02:50,039 --> 00:02:54,639 it. I thought Moody was making these up to sell books. And so 38 00:02:55,039 --> 00:02:59,960 Sarah, who was the social worker, challenged me. She said, well, 39 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:05,039 have you ever asked any of your patients And I said no, So 40 00:03:05,319 --> 00:03:07,919 she said, well, go and do it for me. So I did, 41 00:03:07,439 --> 00:03:12,479 and the third patient I talked to had a near death experience, and 42 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:16,400 so that sort of got me interested in it, but certainly not convinced of 43 00:03:16,439 --> 00:03:22,800 it. The presentation she gave she used the case that I gave her, 44 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:25,520 and after that we got together and said, you know, maybe there is 45 00:03:25,599 --> 00:03:31,719 something to this. Why don't we devise a scientific study to look into it. 46 00:03:32,319 --> 00:03:38,080 And so we did that and we started interviewing patients and over a period 47 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:44,840 of five years, one hundred and sixteen patients with near death experiences were recorded. 48 00:03:45,319 --> 00:03:51,560 So I got the genu Cell three trace and I have used it and 49 00:03:51,599 --> 00:03:54,120 I love it because you know, we've had the geni cel, you know, 50 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:59,520 Uno, the geni cell dose, and now we have the geni cell 51 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:03,280 and it's pretty amazing. I use anything in everything that I can get under 52 00:04:03,319 --> 00:04:06,520 my eyes because I have to get up at the crack of dawn to do 53 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:11,560 our show every single morning. And this stuff is bomb. It's completely awesome. 54 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:14,479 It is bomb. 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So it's basically like 64 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:03,480 just giving yourself your own personal facial at every single day and it helps with 65 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:08,879 longevity of your skin because like I I'm in it for the long haul. 66 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:12,199 When it comes to my eye, when it comes seriously, I've always like 67 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:16,439 tried to take care of my under eye area, but like Genucel has taken 68 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:20,560 it to the next level. So it's it's included in the Genucell Fall Classics 69 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:26,279 package and at a crazy introductory discount. You guys have got to take advantages. 70 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:29,480 Yeah, take advantage of it. Go to genucell dot com slash chicks 71 00:05:29,519 --> 00:05:34,000 for deep discounts on this amazing Fall package. Or call eight hundred Skin two 72 00:05:34,079 --> 00:05:38,120 eleven now and you can get rid. I love that they have a phone 73 00:05:38,199 --> 00:05:40,519 number now, I know, right because you can talk to the lovely people 74 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:44,800 at Genucell and for results in twelve hours or less. The immediate effects are 75 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:48,199 included for free. Get ready for Thanksgiving because people you know, like you're 76 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:53,000 really judgy, ant is going to be looking at you and you're under ipacks 77 00:05:53,079 --> 00:05:58,240 is aging, right, So so go to genucell dot com slash chicks now 78 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:01,759 are called eight hundred Skin to one one that's ge and u Cel dot com 79 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:06,040 slash Chicks. Now, we didn't do it the way Moody did it. 80 00:06:06,519 --> 00:06:12,160 Raymond will fully admit, he actually admits it in his book that he did 81 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:15,720 not do a scientific study. And I was really into science at that time, 82 00:06:16,319 --> 00:06:21,959 and so we had a protocol, we followed, went through the necessary 83 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:30,120 preliminaries of talking to patients on studies, et cetera, and we completed the 84 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:35,800 study. She had moved to Louisiana at the time, she was pursuing a 85 00:06:35,879 --> 00:06:41,240 PhD in social work, and I went to Emery in Atlanta at the time 86 00:06:41,439 --> 00:06:46,120 also, so we split ways, but the study continued. The thing that 87 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:51,720 really hooked me on was that I was interested in what I called at the 88 00:06:51,839 --> 00:07:00,199 time the autoscopic which is a word meaning self visualization or commonly out of the 89 00:07:00,319 --> 00:07:04,480 experience, part of the experience where they people feel as if they flowed up 90 00:07:04,519 --> 00:07:09,000 out of their body and they can actually see what's going on in the room. 91 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:13,319 Now, as a cardiologist, I said, okay, so you're seeing 92 00:07:13,399 --> 00:07:15,959 what's going on in the room. I felt sure I could poke holes in 93 00:07:16,079 --> 00:07:21,639 that story. So I would then go and interrogate them further about what they 94 00:07:21,759 --> 00:07:30,160 had seen, and most of the descriptions were very general, like people standing 95 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:35,560 around the bed, etc. Etc. There wasn't anything unique or specific about 96 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:41,279 what they had said or seen. But six of them were very, very 97 00:07:41,399 --> 00:07:46,480 detailed, and so I took those six cases and verified their accuracy by medical 98 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:51,639 records or talking to other people who had been there, including myself, and 99 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:57,480 what I found was that they were extremely accurate. I then went to the 100 00:07:57,639 --> 00:08:03,759 literature and look to whether there could have been some mundane other explanation for it, 101 00:08:05,279 --> 00:08:09,240 and could not find any. And this was all then written up in 102 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:13,319 a book. But the thing that hooked me was the accuracy of their experience 103 00:08:13,439 --> 00:08:18,560 that I could not explain that they said they saw from out of their body 104 00:08:18,959 --> 00:08:24,399 during the resuscitation. And it had been shown many times in several studies that 105 00:08:24,439 --> 00:08:31,279 if somebody has a cardiac arrest, they're fully unconscious with a flat EEG. 106 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:37,000 Fifteen to twenty seconds after the arrest starts. So in a hospital situation, 107 00:08:37,759 --> 00:08:41,159 you're not going to get to the patient and resuscitate them within the fifteen or 108 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:46,799 twenty seconds. So they were unconscious and near death at the time, and 109 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:50,600 I did not know. I could not find any way they could have known 110 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:58,159 about these visual observations. They were having during their unconscious period. So you 111 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,799 know, at that point I've said, well, I really at the end 112 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:03,679 of the book, I left it kind of opened. I said, this 113 00:09:03,879 --> 00:09:09,639 is truly happening. I think they're having these experiences, but the explanation really 114 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:16,279 was not known in science at that Oh so fascinating. Okay, So when 115 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:18,720 it comes to viewers coming in, the people that are skeptics or whoever, 116 00:09:18,799 --> 00:09:24,240 people that believe in these what do you want the impact to be on the 117 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:28,200 viewer? So what do you hope the viewer gains by seeing the movie. 118 00:09:28,639 --> 00:09:33,639 Well, I think there's something going on we can't explain about ordinary scientific methods. 119 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:37,879 I think that this is a spiritual experience. If it's not a material 120 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:43,559 experience, I think it's a spiritual experience. And I think what they're seeing 121 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:50,279 is actually occurring. Now, whether or not you consider these to be after 122 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:58,399 death experiences or not is another question. The definition of death medically is very 123 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:03,159 vague. We don't have a really good moment at which we know that the 124 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:13,279 patient is actually finally physically, irreversibly dead, So that point is still under 125 00:10:13,519 --> 00:10:20,960 contention, and that's certainly something something that comes into play when when when you're 126 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:24,799 considering a patient for transplant transplanting their organs, you want to make sure that 127 00:10:24,919 --> 00:10:30,480 they're physically dead at the time before you start taking their organs out. So 128 00:10:30,919 --> 00:10:33,000 that's still up in the air, really, Like, I had no idea 129 00:10:33,039 --> 00:10:39,639 that that was a thing. Yes, that is a thing, And there's 130 00:10:39,919 --> 00:10:46,600 controversy now in the medical field and has been forever exactly how soon you can 131 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:54,200 take what's called an unpaired organ out of a person before, before they're or 132 00:10:54,480 --> 00:11:00,840 at the point after they're they've died. You want to get the organ out 133 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:03,120 as soon as possible, that's the key, but you don't want to get 134 00:11:03,159 --> 00:11:07,440 it out while they're still alive. Otherwise you're killing them when they're when you're 135 00:11:07,519 --> 00:11:13,519 taking the organ out. So there's a real tension there and sometimes that's creates 136 00:11:13,639 --> 00:11:18,399 problems. But anyway, that's a that's a medical problem. That's not a 137 00:11:18,519 --> 00:11:22,639 problem with what's going on with a near death experience, except for the fact 138 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:28,159 that if you're trying to say that this is a before death or after death 139 00:11:28,279 --> 00:11:33,159 experience, if you can't define the moment of death very clearly, then you 140 00:11:33,279 --> 00:11:37,600 have a problem with determining whether it's before or after death. I personally believe, 141 00:11:39,399 --> 00:11:45,679 as a Christian and biblically that these are before death experiences and not after 142 00:11:45,799 --> 00:11:50,480 death experiences. And I know there have been a lot of books written about 143 00:11:50,759 --> 00:11:54,360 I went to Heaven and I saw this, I saw that I met God, 144 00:11:54,440 --> 00:12:01,879 I saw the golden a pathway up to God, etc. And deceased 145 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:07,399 relatives and friends. I do not buy into the fact that they're actually in 146 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:13,559 heaven doing that at that time. I think there's clear evidence in scripture that 147 00:12:13,759 --> 00:12:18,840 shows that people are appointed to die once and then the judgment. That's Hebrews 148 00:12:18,919 --> 00:12:24,679 nine twenty seven, and they're multiple verses in the Bible that back that up 149 00:12:24,799 --> 00:12:28,879 also, So I think that it's a spiritual experience. I think it's a 150 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:37,480 very powerful experience which has powerful impact on their religious beliefs and belief in life 151 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:43,759 after death and other things in the patient who has the experience. But I 152 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:50,120 don't think it's a glimpse or what we call a tourist view of heaven. 153 00:12:52,159 --> 00:12:58,039 The whole genre of books that I won't be mentioning names but basically claim that 154 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:03,759 it's trips to heaven, and they're called heaven tourism books, and that's come 155 00:13:03,879 --> 00:13:11,519 under fire because from both the religious community and the medical community, because it's 156 00:13:11,639 --> 00:13:13,639 not back down. So do you think that when these people, if they've 157 00:13:13,759 --> 00:13:20,879 experienced these they've had these NDEs, do you think that when they die that 158 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:28,039 it could be totally different when they actually do die. I think I think 159 00:13:28,799 --> 00:13:35,559 to know what heaven is like, you can read the scriptures scriptures and get 160 00:13:35,759 --> 00:13:43,039 a picture of it from the word of God. You can't rely upon what 161 00:13:43,279 --> 00:13:48,399 you saw or think you saw when you were only near death and not after 162 00:13:48,519 --> 00:13:52,440 death. You haven't been there. Done now come back and tell you what 163 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:58,279 it's like. I have people coming into my house NonStop until literally New Year's 164 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:03,080 until we go on a trip after Christmas, and it's NonStop. So I've 165 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:07,600 got like three sets of family members coming in and the only thing that's gonna 166 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:09,960 save me is Omaha steaks because you know, I don't cook, but my 167 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:13,080 husband grills, and so this is what we do. We have a freezer 168 00:14:13,159 --> 00:14:15,960 full of Omaha steaks, all the good stuff, you know, the filet 169 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:20,480 like the bacon rat filets. We have pork chops. We have the yummy 170 00:14:20,559 --> 00:14:22,600 juicy hot dogs, which the kids love. I'm telling these are not normal 171 00:14:22,639 --> 00:14:26,519 hot dogs. These are like no unbelievable hot dogs. We've got just regular 172 00:14:26,639 --> 00:14:31,519 burgers, which are not regular when they come from Omaha because they're absolutely freaking 173 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:33,840 amazing. So everything is in our freezer ready to go, and we just 174 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,840 at a moment's notice, we'll be like, let's grill out, and this 175 00:14:37,039 --> 00:14:41,080 is what we do. It's the absolute best. You have to do this, 176 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:43,799 you have to stuck up. Plus it's great for gifts. We give 177 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:50,159 Omaha steaks to people at you know, Thanksgiving, at Christmas. My mom 178 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:54,120 loves Omaha. I give her Omaha steaks like every year for Christmas. I'll 179 00:14:54,159 --> 00:14:56,159 give her like a nice little curated package of stuff, and she loves the 180 00:14:56,200 --> 00:15:01,600 little potatoes. She'll make herself like a little filet and potatoes like she's single 181 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:05,440 lady. And she'll make yourself a nice little dinner like she treats her. 182 00:15:05,559 --> 00:15:07,879 And you can even feel like you're helping, like when your husband is grilling, 183 00:15:07,919 --> 00:15:11,559 you can do the side right in the oven because it's super easy. 184 00:15:11,919 --> 00:15:13,080 I feel like it. Yeah, I mean I may do that, or 185 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:16,720 I may make him just do all of it. Yeah. But anyways, 186 00:15:16,759 --> 00:15:18,759 but this is why you need Ama steaks in your life, because they make 187 00:15:18,799 --> 00:15:22,200 your life a lot easier, especially during the holidays, when it comes to 188 00:15:22,279 --> 00:15:26,159 gift giving, when it comes to just entertaining all the things. This is 189 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:30,360 the time stop up you guys. Everybody loves them, especially right now there's 190 00:15:30,399 --> 00:15:33,879 a fifty percent site wide sale. So now is the time to fill up 191 00:15:33,919 --> 00:15:39,480 your freezers because everything's fifty percent off at their semi annual sale. And if 192 00:15:39,519 --> 00:15:41,320 you use code chicks at checkout, you get an extra thirty bucks. There 193 00:15:41,399 --> 00:15:46,840 may no breanimum purchases apply, but thirty bucks off your order when you go 194 00:15:46,879 --> 00:15:52,679 to Omaha Steaks dot com and make sure to use code s Buie. Frankly, 195 00:15:52,799 --> 00:16:00,879 we have ordained ministers who've had these experiences who say exactly that is the 196 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,600 one I have in mindsets that he has now changed the way he does funerals 197 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:10,440 based upon the fact that he can tell the people standing at the grape side 198 00:16:10,799 --> 00:16:14,799 where this person is, what it's like, what they saw, and what 199 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:21,240 they can expect themselves. So it gets to be that that I speak out 200 00:16:21,279 --> 00:16:27,159 against because I think that's wrong, overreaching. And also so before we get 201 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:33,320 off the subject, I think it's very important to state that and this is 202 00:16:33,399 --> 00:16:40,799 where this is very important that if you have non Christians who are having pleasant 203 00:16:40,919 --> 00:16:48,840 near death experiences and you have Christians who are having almost identical pleasant near death 204 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,279 experiences. You would say, well, okay, the Christian is a Christian 205 00:16:52,639 --> 00:16:57,120 and are my Christian belief is that they will go to heaven. The non 206 00:16:57,279 --> 00:17:03,160 Christian is having the same experience, and the Christian with authority says I went 207 00:17:03,279 --> 00:17:07,559 to heaven. Well, then the non Christian will say I went to heaven 208 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:11,920 too, So I don't need your religion. I'll do it my own way. 209 00:17:11,519 --> 00:17:15,440 It makes no difference. That's called universalism, as you will know, 210 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:22,599 and that is a I would think the biggest problem with claiming you went to 211 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:26,039 heaven if you're a Christian, because the non Christians are going there too, 212 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:30,799 because they have them. That's such a great point because I've had these discussions 213 00:17:30,839 --> 00:17:36,119 with people where they're like, I don't who gets, like how that is 214 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:40,039 such a great point because I've heard that about non Christians and Christians and how 215 00:17:40,079 --> 00:17:42,240 they do and these near death experiences go to the same place. So how 216 00:17:42,279 --> 00:17:45,480 do you differentiate between Christians and non Christians? And I've had the discussion with 217 00:17:45,559 --> 00:17:49,359 people and I'm so glad, I'm so glad you brought that up because it 218 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:53,039 is a little it's frustrating for Christians, right because you're like, wait, 219 00:17:53,799 --> 00:17:56,319 I'm doing things right and I'm a Christian, so I don't get it, 220 00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:00,599 Like that doesn't make any sense to me. That's so interesting that you brought 221 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:03,799 that up. Yeah, so right, many times in the New Testament said 222 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:08,319 I am the way the truth of life. No one comes Father except through 223 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:14,000 me. Well, you're coming to the Father and the near death experience and 224 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:18,319 you're seeing the Father and having a conversation with him and it's all great, 225 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:26,559 beautiful, and you're a non Christian. Boila makes no difference. So there 226 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:33,319 in the people that have had these experiences, did you find through the research 227 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:40,200 that there's something that is a common denominator with those people specifically, because my 228 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:42,920 dad, for example, suffered cardiac arrest and he was down for the count 229 00:18:44,039 --> 00:18:48,720 for a few minutes before he got shocked back to life, and he did 230 00:18:48,799 --> 00:18:52,319 not have any kind of experience like this at all. So I'm wondering if 231 00:18:52,319 --> 00:18:57,640 there's any if there's something that the people who do have the experiences have in 232 00:18:57,799 --> 00:19:03,119 common that you were able to uncover. No, nothing, We really don't 233 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:07,480 have the answer to that question, and it's a very very good question. 234 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:12,319 Only about ten to fifteen percent of people who have a bona fide cardiac arrest 235 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:18,319 will have a near death experience or at least recall having a near death experience 236 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:25,000 because all sorts of things are happening at the time. They're getting different drugs, 237 00:19:25,319 --> 00:19:27,759 They could be forgetting it, or they could not actually have it have 238 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:33,079 the experience. We don't know. That's up for grabs. That's not a 239 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:37,960 good But the key here is though, if you don't have the experience and 240 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:41,640 you do have a cardiac arrest, that doesn't mean that you're not a Christian 241 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:47,359 or that you're not going to heaven if you're a group. Right, So 242 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:52,880 your dad needs to be reassured if he's a Christian that he's going to heaven, 243 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:56,440 not because he didn't have or not. And the fact that he did 244 00:19:56,559 --> 00:20:02,400 not have the experience does not mean he is not going to heaven because these 245 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:06,400 other people were not going to heaven or hell either. So how is how 246 00:20:06,519 --> 00:20:11,279 did all of your research into this change your own your own life, your 247 00:20:11,319 --> 00:20:17,839 own perspective about life after death or near death experiences. Well, it changed 248 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:22,279 my life. It did not change my religion. I was a Christian to 249 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:27,000 begin with, albeit a much stronger Christian now than I was way back then. 250 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:34,119 What it did was reinforce my beliefs that there's more to this life than 251 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:41,720 the physical body. The spiritual part of life is real, and it has 252 00:20:41,039 --> 00:20:47,440 ups and downs and the good and the bad to it. And I personally 253 00:20:47,599 --> 00:20:52,400 feel, after dealing with these people and studying these experiences, that the spiritual 254 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:57,359 realm is a very real thing. It's just is there anything else, Miriam, 255 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:00,880 that you wanted to ask? Well, I guess the last thing would 256 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:06,440 just be what you're hoping that audiences will take away from this experience, because 257 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:08,279 I know, you know, for me personally, there was a moment where 258 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,039 I was so riveted the entire time, And then there was the one gentleman 259 00:21:12,039 --> 00:21:18,599 whose name I can't remember now, who doesn't want to be here more because 260 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:26,319 of how overwhelmingly joyful the experience was. And that was hard to watch that 261 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,880 party, and yeah, to think, man, he's feeling like he's missing 262 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:34,559 out on something and he's still here to tell his story. Yeah. Yeah. 263 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:38,480 That was one of the fears when we first started investigating these things, 264 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:45,519 is that people would be seeing these experiences, claiming that they've been to heaven, 265 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:52,359 how wonderful it is, and whether we would encourage suicide at him because 266 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,880 of that, because people say, well, if that's the way it is, 267 00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:00,480 and I believe him, then why don't I just go there? Now. 268 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:06,240 What's interesting, though, is that if someone who does attempt suicide and 269 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:12,039 has a near death experience, it causes them not to repeat the experience itself. 270 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:18,759 It does the exact opposite of what we had initially been afraid of when 271 00:22:18,839 --> 00:22:23,880 we first started doing this work, and studies medical studies have been published in 272 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:33,039 good medical journals showing that a suicide attempter who has a near death experience will 273 00:22:33,079 --> 00:22:40,759 be much less likely to attempt it again compared to one who did not have 274 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:45,000 the near death experience. And as you both probably know that suicide tends to 275 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:52,759 there's a high recidivism rate in suicide attempting, so it's actually a therapeutic deterrent 276 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:59,480 against repeating the suicide that is fascinating. Well, we really enjoyed the film, 277 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:03,440 enjoyed you in the film, and we have been encouraging everybody to visit 278 00:23:03,519 --> 00:23:06,680 angel dot com slash Chicks to get tickets and make sure to see it. 279 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,519 Get tickets for your friends through the pay it Forward program at angel dot com. 280 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:15,359 Slash Chicks doctor Michael Sabam, we appreciate you being with us to talk 281 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,160 to you. Thank you so much. Okay, now we know the secret 282 00:23:18,319 --> 00:23:23,079 of what makes the my pillow towels so special, and it's something that I've 283 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:29,079 never taken us years. 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