WEBVTT 1 00:00:30.640 --> 00:00:34.520 Welcome back to the Path Went Chile for part two of our series on the 2 00:00:34.600 --> 00:00:39.359 unsolved disappearance of Claudia Kershak Robin, do you want to catch everyone up on 3 00:00:39.399 --> 00:00:43.399 what we talked about in our previous episode? Well, Claudia Kershok was a 4 00:00:43.439 --> 00:00:46.880 twenty nine year old woman from New York who had just gotten a job as 5 00:00:46.920 --> 00:00:50.640 a travel writer, which was her dream job because she was now getting paid 6 00:00:50.679 --> 00:00:53.679 to travel the world and write about it. She was supposed to go to 7 00:00:53.719 --> 00:00:57.399 a resort opening in Cuba, but during a layover in Jamaica, she was 8 00:00:57.439 --> 00:01:00.840 denied access to the country because of tensions between Cuba and the US, so 9 00:01:00.880 --> 00:01:06.040 she got to spend a couple of days staying at an all expenses paid trip 10 00:01:06.079 --> 00:01:11.040 at a resort in Jamaica alongside another travel writer named Tanya Rosinger, because they 11 00:01:11.040 --> 00:01:14.640 had to wait a couple of days in order for her to get a flight 12 00:01:14.680 --> 00:01:17.879 back to New York. According to Tanya, Claudia told her that she had 13 00:01:17.920 --> 00:01:21.760 gone out in a date with a resort bartender named Anthony Grant and that they 14 00:01:21.760 --> 00:01:25.719 had smoked some marijuana and gone skinny dipping, and then Tanya took an earlier 15 00:01:25.719 --> 00:01:29.159 flight back home Claudia said she was going to return home in a few days, 16 00:01:29.280 --> 00:01:32.719 but she never did, and they checked her room at the resort. 17 00:01:32.799 --> 00:01:36.400 All her personal items were still there, and the last confirmed sighting of her 18 00:01:36.439 --> 00:01:38.840 she was seen on a beach, so it seemed like she had gone to 19 00:01:38.879 --> 00:01:42.599 go sunbathing or something before something happened to her, and there was a lot 20 00:01:42.599 --> 00:01:47.959 of shady behavior by the resort. They lost some of her personal items, 21 00:01:48.000 --> 00:01:49.799 They did not seal off the room as a crime scene. They tried to 22 00:01:49.840 --> 00:01:53.719 do a lot of victim blaming and a press conference saying that she was promiscuous 23 00:01:53.719 --> 00:01:57.200 and that Claudia ran off on her own, probably to cover up the fact 24 00:01:57.239 --> 00:02:01.120 that she was a likely victim of foul. The FBI brought in to do 25 00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:07.719 a search of Anthony Grant's residence and his vehicle, and a tracking dog detected 26 00:02:07.280 --> 00:02:12.319 Claudius sent in the trunk and also traces of her sent on Anthony's boots and 27 00:02:12.360 --> 00:02:15.439 a pair of gloves she owned, and eventually got to the point where he 28 00:02:15.520 --> 00:02:20.080 stopped talking to the authorities. He hired an attorney and he wound up failing 29 00:02:20.080 --> 00:02:23.080 a polygraph to test, but they did not find any evidence to implicate him 30 00:02:23.080 --> 00:02:27.759 in Claudia's disappearance, and sadly, here we are twenty three years later, 31 00:02:27.840 --> 00:02:30.000 no trace of Claudia has been found. They suspect she was the victim of 32 00:02:30.039 --> 00:02:34.639 foul play, but there just isn't enough evidence to implicate anyone, so it 33 00:02:34.680 --> 00:02:38.680 remains an unsolved cold case after twenty three years. So even though all missing 34 00:02:38.680 --> 00:02:44.479 persons cases are a traumatic experience for the victim's loved ones, it's particularly difficult 35 00:02:44.479 --> 00:02:46.840 when the victim goes missing in a foreign country that they are not familiar with, 36 00:02:47.159 --> 00:02:51.280 because this can lead to all sorts of additional issues with red tape and 37 00:02:51.319 --> 00:02:54.800 the local authorities. But the ironic thing about this story is that Claudia went 38 00:02:54.840 --> 00:03:00.000 missing from a country she wasn't planning to visit to begin with. Remember, 39 00:03:00.159 --> 00:03:04.159 her original assignment was to attend a travel junket in Cuba, where things were 40 00:03:04.199 --> 00:03:07.960 pretty tense at that time. So when she contacted her parents to let them 41 00:03:07.960 --> 00:03:12.080 know she was being denied entry there, they actually breathed a sigh of relief, 42 00:03:12.599 --> 00:03:15.759 never imagining that she would go missing from an entirely different country instead. 43 00:03:16.439 --> 00:03:22.199 Jamaica has always had serious issues with violent crime, but it also relies heavily 44 00:03:22.199 --> 00:03:27.000 on its tourism industry, which generates over a billion dollars per year. This 45 00:03:27.080 --> 00:03:30.319 is why the attempt to betray resort areas like beaches n grill as safe zones, 46 00:03:30.680 --> 00:03:35.360 and tourists are generally discouraged from leaving these areas for their own safety. 47 00:03:35.800 --> 00:03:38.159 But the problem with Plaudius cases is that she was last seeing at one of 48 00:03:38.199 --> 00:03:44.120 these supposedly safe resorts, and one of the resort's employees was suspected of potentially 49 00:03:44.120 --> 00:03:47.240 being involved in her disappearance. That's the kind of thing which can scare tourists 50 00:03:47.240 --> 00:03:53.159 away. Oh boy, can it right? That is exactly what these kinds 51 00:03:53.280 --> 00:03:58.759 of large tourists driven industries can't have, right. We talked on episode one 52 00:03:58.759 --> 00:04:04.120 about places like Disney World in sandals resorts and beaches. They can't have a 53 00:04:04.360 --> 00:04:11.479 headline that says young American tourist vanishes right from our resort or our last seen 54 00:04:11.560 --> 00:04:15.599 at the resort. So in this case, like you said, the family 55 00:04:15.759 --> 00:04:20.480 is not just battling a demand for answers. In a typical case, they're 56 00:04:20.519 --> 00:04:26.120 trying to figure out what are the laws, what are the investigative practices, 57 00:04:26.560 --> 00:04:30.800 what are the practices of this resort she was last at. Right, there's 58 00:04:30.920 --> 00:04:35.319 all these things that they're battling as barriers to answers in the disappearance of their 59 00:04:35.360 --> 00:04:40.920 daughters. So whereas if Reagan went missing right here, I would know Berryville 60 00:04:40.920 --> 00:04:45.160 Police Department, Carroll County Sheriff's Department, and perhaps like the FBI and things 61 00:04:45.160 --> 00:04:47.759 like that, right, but larger institutions would come and respond. Here. 62 00:04:48.120 --> 00:04:53.240 I know how our neighborhoods work. I know the people involved. This family 63 00:04:53.319 --> 00:04:58.160 was kind of at a loss and fighting so mightily for any indication of what 64 00:04:58.240 --> 00:05:02.600 happened to their baby. Like you have publicity that an American tourist goes missing 65 00:05:02.600 --> 00:05:05.439 at one of your resorts, Like that's a very bad thing because you rely 66 00:05:05.519 --> 00:05:10.639 on America for such a large chunk of your tourism industry. So it seems 67 00:05:10.720 --> 00:05:14.480 very very obvious that the resort was trying to push forward any sort of narrative 68 00:05:14.680 --> 00:05:17.160 so that they wouldn't have to admit that Claudia might have met with foul play 69 00:05:17.240 --> 00:05:23.600 on their property. It seems so political, such a shame in these countries 70 00:05:23.920 --> 00:05:29.199 when something like this happens and there seems to be pressure from politicians the institution 71 00:05:29.560 --> 00:05:33.480 in this case a billion dollar tourism industry. What almost feels like the conclusion 72 00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:39.639 of not having any answers is the foregone conclusion, right, Like, it's 73 00:05:39.680 --> 00:05:44.480 better to have some kind of ambiguity than to find out that a guest an 74 00:05:44.519 --> 00:05:48.079 American guest husband murdered in a resort, Right. I think that is the 75 00:05:48.120 --> 00:05:54.199 absolute worst case scenario because they've listened to so many different cases that are overseas 76 00:05:54.519 --> 00:05:59.319 where you have either Americans, Canadians, Australians, whomever traveling in countries that 77 00:05:59.439 --> 00:06:02.720 you believe that they would take it seriously. But it seems like there is 78 00:06:03.079 --> 00:06:09.879 like zero motivation to actually look into these things, and it's shocking, and 79 00:06:10.000 --> 00:06:15.600 especially in this situation, we can kind of understand why they're doing it because 80 00:06:15.600 --> 00:06:19.560 there probably is a lot of outside pressures and when you're trying to protect something 81 00:06:19.879 --> 00:06:25.199 like a very poor country that is worth over a billion dollars, that is 82 00:06:25.279 --> 00:06:30.319 something that people will go to great lengths to protect. One of the most 83 00:06:30.360 --> 00:06:34.079 controversial moments in this case was when Leo Lambert, the head of pr At 84 00:06:34.079 --> 00:06:40.000 Sandals resort, held a press conference in which he portrayed Claudia as a wild, 85 00:06:40.079 --> 00:06:44.240 promiscuous woman and tried to push forward the idea that she just wanted to 86 00:06:44.319 --> 00:06:47.480 run away and start a new life by living in the hills with some Jamaican 87 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:54.480 lover, but of course that idea was completely ridiculous, since Claudia always maintained 88 00:06:54.519 --> 00:06:59.079 a close relationship with her family and had recently moved into a new apartment and 89 00:06:59.199 --> 00:07:02.160 was pretty much work her dream job as it allowed her to travel the world 90 00:07:02.160 --> 00:07:06.000 and get paid for it. And even if Claudia did have a reason to 91 00:07:06.079 --> 00:07:11.600 run off, she left all of her personal items behind in her hotel room 92 00:07:11.639 --> 00:07:15.639 and literally had nothing on besides a bikini t shirt and portable radio. This 93 00:07:15.680 --> 00:07:19.800 was an obvious attempt to protect the public image of Sandals, resorts and the 94 00:07:19.879 --> 00:07:25.680 Jamaican tourist industry, as they wanted to dispel the idea that American tourists might 95 00:07:25.720 --> 00:07:30.120 have been abducted and murdered, and instead pushed forward the narrative that Claudia just 96 00:07:30.160 --> 00:07:35.240 took off voluntarily. If you guys think about media coverage of several missing persons 97 00:07:35.279 --> 00:07:41.120 and murder cases, you'll see really negative things about the victim. That victim 98 00:07:41.160 --> 00:07:44.680 blaming and shaming that we always talk about. So you'll have a story that 99 00:07:44.759 --> 00:07:47.839 has nothing to do with the fact that an individual was let's say a dancer, 100 00:07:47.879 --> 00:07:51.480 an exotic dancer, or an escort. Right, let's say her boyfriend 101 00:07:51.560 --> 00:07:55.519 murders her. Well, the fact that she was an escort means nothing. 102 00:07:55.800 --> 00:07:59.240 But you'll see that in a headline like escort murdered, you know, and 103 00:08:00.120 --> 00:08:05.079 it causes you to stop and go why why are those factors put in this 104 00:08:05.160 --> 00:08:11.360 story? Why was Claudia portrayed as a scandalous kid who messed up and therefore 105 00:08:11.480 --> 00:08:15.480 kind of deserved what was coming to her? And the reality is that if 106 00:08:15.600 --> 00:08:18.839 you don't behave the way Claudia did, you're safe. So they want to 107 00:08:18.839 --> 00:08:22.199 paint a picture that, you know, you don't engage in drugs, you 108 00:08:22.319 --> 00:08:28.279 don't have sex, you're not promiscuous, you're not kind of ignorant to your 109 00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:31.919 surroundings, so you're safe. Here's why Claudia would have been a victim. 110 00:08:33.240 --> 00:08:37.240 They paint this kind of isolated picture where I can read a news story and 111 00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:41.279 separate from it and say, oh, that wouldn't happen to me because I 112 00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:46.440 don't do these things. It's like the true crime equivalent of an urban legend, 113 00:08:46.720 --> 00:08:50.159 where it's trying to stop kids from wanting to have sex and act wild. 114 00:08:50.519 --> 00:08:52.639 And it's one of those things where it's like, well, if you 115 00:08:52.759 --> 00:08:56.679 remain chaste in your a quote unquote good girl, then things like this won't 116 00:08:56.679 --> 00:09:01.320 happen, which is so ridiculous because these factors play in those cases. But 117 00:09:01.399 --> 00:09:05.519 we see it again and again. You read publications like the Daily Mail, 118 00:09:05.559 --> 00:09:11.039 for example, and you'll see things like stripper is murdered or escort is murdered, 119 00:09:11.080 --> 00:09:13.799 and it's like ash said, absolutely zero to do with the job that 120 00:09:13.879 --> 00:09:18.320 they did. It'll be something completely random, but yet that splashed all over 121 00:09:18.360 --> 00:09:22.919 the headlines because it's delacious and it allows people to feel safe. Oh, 122 00:09:22.960 --> 00:09:24.960 you're so right. I mean, like, think about the way we teach 123 00:09:26.039 --> 00:09:30.360 sexual assault prevention, right, We're like, don't wear scandalous clothes, don't 124 00:09:30.440 --> 00:09:33.559 drink at the party, don't do these things. And it's like I will 125 00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:35.759 always tell kids that I'm talking to, I'm like, if someone wants to 126 00:09:35.799 --> 00:09:39.399 hurt you, they will like, there are definitely ways you could be quote 127 00:09:39.519 --> 00:09:45.200 safe, but when someone wants to victimize you, right, it is their 128 00:09:45.320 --> 00:09:48.759 choice and their power that somehow gets to you. There's really not a way 129 00:09:48.799 --> 00:09:54.080 to say that couldn't happen to me because all of us are not immune. 130 00:09:54.159 --> 00:09:58.639 None of us are immune from being somebody's victim if they decide they want to 131 00:09:58.639 --> 00:10:01.039 take advantage of us or they want to heard us. It always strikes me 132 00:10:01.120 --> 00:10:05.120 too that it's like young women are told so much about what they should do 133 00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:09.360 for sexual assault prevention, but I feel like the education really needs to start 134 00:10:09.399 --> 00:10:13.720 with young boys, and it really needs to start with children, right, 135 00:10:13.759 --> 00:10:18.120 But the owners shouldn't and the responsibility shouldn't have to be put entirely on women, 136 00:10:18.399 --> 00:10:22.879 and men shouldn't be treated as these creatures that are unable and incapable of 137 00:10:22.919 --> 00:10:26.320 controlling themselves, because that just isn't true, and it's just so damaging to 138 00:10:26.440 --> 00:10:33.000 both sexes when that narrative remains the pervasive one. Anyway, we've already made 139 00:10:33.000 --> 00:10:39.480 comparisons between this case and the disappearance of Natalie Holloway. Claudia story did receive 140 00:10:39.519 --> 00:10:41.879 a lot of coverage from the media at the time it originally happened, and 141 00:10:43.039 --> 00:10:46.960 was even featured on an episode of Unsolved Mysteries, but of course it was 142 00:10:46.039 --> 00:10:50.559 nowhere near as big as Natalie's story and pretty much got pushed out of the 143 00:10:50.600 --> 00:10:54.840 Spotlight after two thousand and five, I know that Fred and Mary Ann Kershaw 144 00:10:54.039 --> 00:11:00.679 supposedly reached a confidential settlement with Sandel's resorts after they filed their lawsuit against so 145 00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:03.759 I wonder if this has prevented any new information about the case from being released 146 00:11:03.759 --> 00:11:07.759 over the past decade. Now, if for any reason you're not familiar with 147 00:11:07.879 --> 00:11:13.799 Natalie Holloway's disappearance, here's a brief synopsis of the parallels with Claudia's case. 148 00:11:13.600 --> 00:11:18.799 Natalie was an eighteen year old high school graduate from Alabama who went on a 149 00:11:18.799 --> 00:11:22.720 school trip to Aruba in May of two thousand and five, but was reported 150 00:11:22.759 --> 00:11:26.960 missing after she failed to make her flight home. She was last seen leaving 151 00:11:26.960 --> 00:11:30.960 a nightclub with a local seventeen year old named Haran Vanderslout and two of his 152 00:11:31.080 --> 00:11:35.600 friends, but was never seen again. And like Claudia, Natalie left behind 153 00:11:35.639 --> 00:11:39.240 all of her personal items in her hotel room. Well. As you probably 154 00:11:39.279 --> 00:11:43.879 know, most people suspect that Haran Vanderslut was responsible for Natalie's disappearance, and 155 00:11:43.960 --> 00:11:48.600 he is currently serving time in a Peruvian prison as he murdered another young woman 156 00:11:48.679 --> 00:11:54.519 named Stephanie Flores Ramirez on the exact five year anniversary of what Natalie went missing, 157 00:11:56.039 --> 00:11:58.480 and much like Claudia's case, there have been complaints about a corrupt or 158 00:11:58.519 --> 00:12:03.639 in Compe police investigation and allegations that a cover up took place. But while 159 00:12:03.639 --> 00:12:09.360 Harod Vanderslout hailed from a prominent and influential family, the primary person of interest 160 00:12:09.399 --> 00:12:15.720 in Claudia's disappearance, Anthony Grant, was just a resort bartender without any powerful 161 00:12:15.759 --> 00:12:20.639 ties. However, there is compelling evidence to suggest that his employer took steps 162 00:12:20.679 --> 00:12:22.919 to cover up what happened to Claudia, though this may have been done for 163 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:28.799 reasons which extended beyond protecting Anthony, who still wound up losing his job just 164 00:12:28.879 --> 00:12:33.159 for going out on a date with Claudia. While Harod Vanderslout's self destructive exploits 165 00:12:33.159 --> 00:12:37.879 following Natalie's disappearance are very well documented, I have no idea what happened to 166 00:12:37.879 --> 00:12:43.919 Anthony Grant or what he's up to today. You're absolutely right. When we 167 00:12:43.919 --> 00:12:46.519 look at the difference between Anthony Grant and your Ron Vander's salute, it is 168 00:12:46.559 --> 00:12:52.559 a stark difference. Yes, they were both acquainted with this individual who went 169 00:12:52.639 --> 00:12:58.039 missing, but Anthony Grant seems like he's trying to be somewhat forthcoming while not 170 00:12:58.120 --> 00:13:01.759 telling the whole is how I feel in my gut where he's saying, yes, 171 00:13:01.799 --> 00:13:05.639 I was with her, Yes I was intimate with her, Yes I 172 00:13:05.679 --> 00:13:09.600 broke protocol, But I didn't kill her, right Like, I'm not the 173 00:13:09.600 --> 00:13:13.559 one responsible for this. So Anthony, the biggest thing I think he was 174 00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:18.039 facing was that we know he's going to lose his job because he was hanging 175 00:13:18.039 --> 00:13:20.879 out with a tourist. But then you get this dog sniffing evidence and it 176 00:13:20.919 --> 00:13:24.480 goes from a you've lost your job to you could literally lose your life to 177 00:13:24.559 --> 00:13:30.399 a prison sentence. So I would love to know if there's more pointing to 178 00:13:30.440 --> 00:13:33.759 Anthony Grant or if at this point that's all we have this dog sniffing evidence 179 00:13:33.799 --> 00:13:39.879 and that he was obviously taking her beyond that safe gate of the resort. 180 00:13:41.320 --> 00:13:43.039 Well, we'll talk more about this later on, but I definitely think there's 181 00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:46.080 evidence to the points that he knows more than he's letting on, but may 182 00:13:46.120 --> 00:13:50.240 not have necessarily been the one who killed her. So here's what we do 183 00:13:50.360 --> 00:13:56.000 know. The last person who can confirm having spoken with Claudia before she went 184 00:13:56.080 --> 00:14:00.879 missing is Tanyu Grossinger, who had breakfast with her on the morning twenty seventh. 185 00:14:01.639 --> 00:14:05.759 Claudia was then seen walking down the beach later by a lifeguarded around one 186 00:14:05.840 --> 00:14:11.000 thirty pm that afternoon, and while eye witnesses and missing persons cases can often 187 00:14:11.039 --> 00:14:15.600 be mistaken, I'm inclined to believe this one might be legitimate. Since the 188 00:14:15.720 --> 00:14:20.480 only items missing from Claudia's room were a bikini, T shirt and portable radio, 189 00:14:20.080 --> 00:14:24.759 that definitely suggests she was heading to the beach before something happened to her. 190 00:14:24.559 --> 00:14:28.360 Of course, the simplest explanation would be that Claudia walked into the water 191 00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:33.480 and drowned, but it seems like this theory has been completely discounted because everyone 192 00:14:33.519 --> 00:14:37.240 believes her body would have washed up on the shore at some point. The 193 00:14:37.320 --> 00:14:43.200 Jamaica can Stabulary Force have even dismissed the idea that Claudia drowned, and given 194 00:14:43.200 --> 00:14:46.960 how certain people from that area seemed to have an interest in getting away from 195 00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:50.840 the idea that she was a victim of foul play, the police probably would 196 00:14:50.840 --> 00:14:54.080 have pushed the drowning theory much harder if there was any possibility of it being 197 00:14:54.120 --> 00:15:00.919 true. It's very clear here what Claudia was going to do that day, 198 00:15:00.960 --> 00:15:03.120 so I don't think it's a question mark, right. She has breakfast with 199 00:15:03.240 --> 00:15:07.799 Tanya and then she's going to out to the beach. They assess her room 200 00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:11.919 and they see, obviously nothing's missing except her bikini, this T shirt, 201 00:15:11.919 --> 00:15:16.279 and a portable radio. To me, that's a typical young woman who's going 202 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:20.000 to let's say sunbathe she'd be going to sit and have drinks with friends on 203 00:15:20.080 --> 00:15:24.399 the beach. But it was very purposeful. Do you guys think she could 204 00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:28.840 have also had her cell phone or do we know that it was recovered in 205 00:15:28.879 --> 00:15:31.000 the room and then later went missing. I think they established that they did 206 00:15:31.039 --> 00:15:35.639 find it in the safe, but it went missing later on for a completely 207 00:15:35.639 --> 00:15:41.039 different reason. I have a question, how do they know what was missing 208 00:15:41.080 --> 00:15:43.480 from her room. It's not like they had an itinerary of all of her 209 00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:48.639 belongings prior to her disappearing, So it just seems strange that they're like, 210 00:15:48.679 --> 00:15:52.200 only these three items were missing. How would anybody know? Yeah, that 211 00:15:52.320 --> 00:15:54.480 is true, that's a good point. I don't know how they were able 212 00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:58.759 to determine that, say, she didn't have an extra pair of clothes on 213 00:15:58.799 --> 00:16:00.720 her at the time, because how are they going to know how much clothing 214 00:16:02.039 --> 00:16:04.320 that she brought with her on the trip. I mean, obviously she left 215 00:16:04.360 --> 00:16:07.759 most of her important items behind, like her passport and cell phone, but 216 00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:11.120 I don't know how they could be certain that these were the only items that 217 00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:15.240 she was carrying at the time she went missing. No, I didn't mean 218 00:16:15.320 --> 00:16:19.879 itinerary, meant itemized list of Okay, itinerary. That did not make any 219 00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:26.799 sense. Now. Most of the information we know about the relationship between Claudia 220 00:16:26.840 --> 00:16:30.879 and Anthony Grant is from a third hand source, Tanya Crozinger, who was 221 00:16:30.919 --> 00:16:36.039 simply relaying the information that Claudia shared with her. According to Tanya, Claudia's 222 00:16:36.039 --> 00:16:38.200 stories that she went to a nightclub with Anthony on the evening of Made the 223 00:16:38.200 --> 00:16:44.000 twenty fifth and smoke some marijuana with him before they went skinny dipping. However, 224 00:16:44.039 --> 00:16:47.759 she apparently maintained that she did not have sex with Anthony, and when 225 00:16:47.759 --> 00:16:51.200 he asked her out again the following night, she declined. Of course, 226 00:16:51.240 --> 00:16:55.279 Anthony denied even knowing Claudia for months until he was questioned by the FBI, 227 00:16:55.799 --> 00:16:59.240 but he then claimed he did have sex with Claudia and that they went out 228 00:16:59.240 --> 00:17:02.960 for a second time. I unmade the twenty sixth. Now, Tanya claims 229 00:17:02.960 --> 00:17:06.599 this isn't true because she had dinner with Claudia on the evening of the twenty 230 00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:11.599 six But I guess we can't completely discount the possibility that after they parted ways, 231 00:17:11.960 --> 00:17:15.519 Claudia could have met up with Anthony later that night. But if she 232 00:17:15.599 --> 00:17:18.119 did, she never mentioned this to Tanya when they had breakfast together on the 233 00:17:18.160 --> 00:17:22.319 morning of the twenty seventh. Now it must be stated that it really doesn't 234 00:17:22.359 --> 00:17:26.599 matter whether or not Claudia actually had sex with Anthony, because either way it's 235 00:17:26.599 --> 00:17:30.599 her own business. But if they didn't have sex and she turned out Anthony 236 00:17:30.640 --> 00:17:34.160 asking her out a second time, then this could have given him a potential 237 00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:40.000 motive to go after her on the twenty seventh. So y'all are definitely on 238 00:17:40.039 --> 00:17:41.559 the path here. I remember in episode one, I'm like, well, 239 00:17:41.559 --> 00:17:45.319 listen, he could actually be being very honest right that, yes, I 240 00:17:45.400 --> 00:17:49.559 had sex with her, and Claudia could have actually been being very respectful of 241 00:17:49.599 --> 00:17:52.559 Tanya and saying, like we're on a work trip. I respect to you. 242 00:17:52.759 --> 00:17:56.160 I want you to view me in a very clean and pure light on 243 00:17:56.200 --> 00:18:00.799 a work outeam and I didn't have sex with the He just wants you to 244 00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:03.160 know that, right, Like I could see telling my friends like, oh, 245 00:18:03.160 --> 00:18:07.480 by the way, I didn't do anything with him, right to have 246 00:18:07.640 --> 00:18:11.960 that kind of reputation kept up. But then when you start to talk about 247 00:18:12.319 --> 00:18:15.680 she goes missing, and you guys very correctly, we're like, wait a 248 00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:19.680 minute. By planting that Seamen could have been found, right, or his 249 00:18:19.799 --> 00:18:23.960 DNA might be found had her body ever been recovered, he could have also 250 00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:30.839 been covering his tracks, which then makes this a very different scenario. Looking 251 00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:34.839 at this and the way that Tanya says Claudia had gone out with him and 252 00:18:34.880 --> 00:18:40.799 then denied him the next night almost makes me feel in my gut that maybe 253 00:18:40.839 --> 00:18:45.319 something did happen where he was asking her to take it further or was trying 254 00:18:45.359 --> 00:18:49.400 to force himself on her, making her therefore uncomfortable. And then like you 255 00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:53.839 said, now Anthony has a motive to say I want Claudia, she said 256 00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:59.559 no, it's now this quest to go get what I want and or be 257 00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:04.039 with a a people who helps me kind of facilitate that social dynamic. Robin, 258 00:19:04.160 --> 00:19:10.079 let me ask you a question. Do you think that there's a possibility 259 00:19:10.119 --> 00:19:15.319 that like Anthony in the situation could look super guilty and that there is this 260 00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:22.119 other nefarious force, maybe like sex traffickers on the island. Who then maybe 261 00:19:22.200 --> 00:19:26.839 even though Anthony may have done something to her, maybe he slept with her, 262 00:19:26.920 --> 00:19:30.119 maybe he didn't, Maybe he took it too far, Maybe he was 263 00:19:30.160 --> 00:19:34.119 afraid of what made happen, and maybe he tipped off somebody that he knew 264 00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:38.599 about this woman who was staying there, who's this attractive travel writer who's there 265 00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:42.200 for a short period of time, and maybe she could be in line with 266 00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:45.799 the type of women that they may be looking to abduct, given that I'm 267 00:19:45.839 --> 00:19:51.440 sure there are certain people that would like an American woman. Has that ever 268 00:19:51.519 --> 00:19:56.279 been listed as a possibility. I haven't heard anything about sex trafficking, But 269 00:19:56.559 --> 00:19:59.880 as we're going to talk about, there have been other rumors that Anthony may 270 00:20:00.119 --> 00:20:03.759 not have been directly responsible for what happened to Claudia, but may know what 271 00:20:03.880 --> 00:20:06.480 happened, like he could have been involved in the cover up, or he 272 00:20:06.519 --> 00:20:08.400 could have witnessed her death. And as we're going to talk about, there 273 00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:12.279 was the anonymous letters saying that she went to a party and consumed a date 274 00:20:12.400 --> 00:20:17.720 rape drug and then wound up convulsing and dying. So there aren't a number 275 00:20:17.720 --> 00:20:22.079 of possibilities other than Anthony being the killer and maybe a thing where maybe he 276 00:20:22.119 --> 00:20:25.240 had no idea that she was going to be harmed, but he did something 277 00:20:25.319 --> 00:20:27.880 like maybe pointed her in the direction of the wrong person, so that he 278 00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:33.319 kind of is indirectly responsible. And obviously, even if he didn't actually kill 279 00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:37.000 her, he doesn't want to admit his culpability because he thinks it might look 280 00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:41.480 bad for him. We talked about in part one that he took a polygraph, 281 00:20:41.559 --> 00:20:45.279 and we all know that polygraphs are not admissible, they're not very reliable. 282 00:20:45.559 --> 00:20:48.799 But it is interesting that when he was asked a bunch of questions he 283 00:20:48.920 --> 00:20:52.880 failed. The one question that he did pass, was he directly responsible for 284 00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:57.599 Claudia's death? And he answered no, and it appeared that he was truthful. 285 00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:02.880 Yeah, exactly, Here's what I wonder, you know, like she's 286 00:21:02.920 --> 00:21:07.799 going to all these local places where Anthony's really to me take care on this 287 00:21:07.960 --> 00:21:12.279 very romantic, kind of culturally based experience where shoot, if I was single 288 00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:17.319 and I was in a foreign country and I found someone that I really bonded 289 00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:22.599 with and felt very safe with, I would absolutely want to go and experience 290 00:21:22.759 --> 00:21:26.720 his family, his neighborhood, his hangouts. Who knows who else she met 291 00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:33.160 at those locations. So, like you said, Anthony likely has more information 292 00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:37.079 or at least is a bigger link to this story than we're aware of. 293 00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:41.160 But I don't know that it's Anthony per se, or was it someone Anthony 294 00:21:41.240 --> 00:21:45.920 exposed her too. I'm almost leaning more towards like a bigger story and a 295 00:21:45.039 --> 00:21:52.759 bigger I don't know a bigger acquaintance group to investigate than just Anthony, because 296 00:21:52.759 --> 00:21:57.039 it is powerful that he passed that question did you directly impact the disappearance of 297 00:21:57.240 --> 00:22:03.400 Claudia? And he passed that question. Of course, even if he had 298 00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:07.880 no involvement in Claudia's disappearance, I can still understand why Anthony would have felt 299 00:22:07.880 --> 00:22:11.759 the need to lie about having gone out with Claudia, since he apparently had 300 00:22:11.799 --> 00:22:17.400 another girlfriend at the time and it was a fireable offense for employees to date 301 00:22:17.480 --> 00:22:21.359 guests. Obviously, you can't put a lot of stock into the results of 302 00:22:21.400 --> 00:22:25.559 polygraph tests, like we just said, since they're not completely reliable. YEA, 303 00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:27.920 Since he had another girlfriend at the time and it was a fireable offense 304 00:22:27.960 --> 00:22:33.920 for employees to date guests. Claudia's parents have always expressed their belief that even 305 00:22:33.960 --> 00:22:37.880 if Anthony did not directly harm her, he may have introduced her, like 306 00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:41.279 ashe just said, to someone else who did and at the very least knows 307 00:22:41.319 --> 00:22:48.480 exactly what happened and is withholding information or at least has names like that's really 308 00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:52.359 where my gut is, right, like who did you bring Claudia around? 309 00:22:52.680 --> 00:22:55.160 Now? The problem, like you said, is he has a lot of 310 00:22:55.200 --> 00:22:59.480 reasons to keep his mouth quiet. Right. Anthony is up against law enforcement 311 00:22:59.480 --> 00:23:03.079 who's invest seating him for the disappearance. He has a girlfriend, and he's 312 00:23:03.119 --> 00:23:07.039 skinny dipping and smoking weed and going on this kind of romantic rendezvous with Claudia. 313 00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:11.039 That's a problem. He has an employer who if he's caught with this 314 00:23:11.160 --> 00:23:15.400 guest, which he was obviously with, he's going to be fired. That 315 00:23:15.559 --> 00:23:18.319 is a problem. When you look at Jamaica and you look at the economy 316 00:23:18.319 --> 00:23:23.880 of Jamaica, there's many families who if they have a family member who's steadily 317 00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:29.599 employed like Anthony, would have been at a sandals resort right or a beach's 318 00:23:29.680 --> 00:23:33.759 resort. That's critical for more than just Anthony, Right, he could be 319 00:23:33.839 --> 00:23:37.799 feeding several people in his home. He could be the breadwinner of the entire 320 00:23:37.880 --> 00:23:45.200 family. So you have law enforcement, your employer, your girlfriend, the 321 00:23:45.200 --> 00:23:48.759 community, everyone's looking at you for answers. Right, that's a lot of 322 00:23:49.599 --> 00:23:55.000 stress on him. But I think he knows names of Like listen, when 323 00:23:55.079 --> 00:23:57.599 we were at this bar, my friends, you know, X, Y 324 00:23:57.640 --> 00:24:02.839 and Z were there and they took particular interest in Claudia. Does he have 325 00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:06.680 it in him to give up the people he exposed her too? Or is 326 00:24:06.680 --> 00:24:10.880 he too scared for all of the collateral damage that comes with that kind of 327 00:24:10.920 --> 00:24:14.480 information. And you're correct about Anthony's job, because he was living with his 328 00:24:14.599 --> 00:24:17.440 mother and sisters at that time, and for all we know, he may 329 00:24:17.519 --> 00:24:22.240 have been supporting them because getting a job as a resort bartender would be pretty 330 00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:26.160 high class, like pretty lavish in Jamaica. So I'm sure he felt that 331 00:24:26.200 --> 00:24:29.319 if I lose this job, I could be living in poverty, and that 332 00:24:29.599 --> 00:24:33.759 could have given an ulterior motive to lie. Oh for sure. Think about 333 00:24:33.759 --> 00:24:37.720 a sandals resort or a beach's resort, like I went to one one time, 334 00:24:38.039 --> 00:24:41.839 and it was like, if you're going to invest in that it is 335 00:24:41.960 --> 00:24:45.720 kind of like we're going to really spoil ourselves and be incredibly luxurious in this. 336 00:24:47.279 --> 00:24:51.200 And if you're in that situation to make that decision, you know, 337 00:24:51.319 --> 00:24:55.279 his tips were great. You know that he was incredibly personable. Look at 338 00:24:55.279 --> 00:24:57.759 how he got Claudia away from the resort and got her to trust him. 339 00:24:59.160 --> 00:25:03.480 So people with that kind of personality, that kind of genuine connection with the 340 00:25:03.480 --> 00:25:07.160 people, they're Surrey drinks too. You know, people were tipping big time, 341 00:25:07.559 --> 00:25:11.559 they were really enjoying having Anthony as their bartender. And so I am 342 00:25:11.599 --> 00:25:15.680 pretty convinced that this was not just a job for him, this was a 343 00:25:15.720 --> 00:25:18.559 way of life to provide for many more people than just himself. Oh can 344 00:25:18.599 --> 00:25:23.319 you imagine, like most jobs that you'd be, you'd probably just make what 345 00:25:23.480 --> 00:25:27.359 like ten dollars American a day at the time, twenty dollars American a day 346 00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:32.319 at the time, Max, And being a bartender. I remember, you 347 00:25:32.359 --> 00:25:34.039 know, I've gotten to Mexico so many times more than I can count, 348 00:25:34.160 --> 00:25:38.039 gone to Dominican and done all inclusives, and even when you're staying at a 349 00:25:38.079 --> 00:25:41.759 really nice place and you don't have to pay for drinks. I remember picking 350 00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:45.440 my favorite bartenders and then being like, you know, here's fifty bucks, 351 00:25:47.160 --> 00:25:49.640 just keep the drinks coming today type of a thing. So if you have 352 00:25:49.759 --> 00:25:53.960 that happened from several guests, you could be walking out with hundreds of American 353 00:25:55.039 --> 00:25:57.920 dollars per day on top of what you're making at the resort. So yeah, 354 00:25:59.039 --> 00:26:02.200 I would think that would be a pretty lavish life where you would be 355 00:26:02.279 --> 00:26:07.240 able to support your sisters and your mother and potentially a partner as well and 356 00:26:07.519 --> 00:26:12.559 children like that would be incredible money for somewhere like Negrille. I think one 357 00:26:12.599 --> 00:26:18.640 of the biggest flaws with the original investigation by the Jamaica Constabulary for US is 358 00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:22.200 that they automatically believed Anthony when he denied knowing Claudia and did not push him 359 00:26:22.200 --> 00:26:26.839 harder like the FBI did. One of the local detectives was interviewed on Unsolved 360 00:26:26.839 --> 00:26:32.240 Mysteries and stated that Anthony is not considered a suspect, which I find a 361 00:26:32.240 --> 00:26:34.599 bit odd, but I guess the wording might have been a bit ambiguous, 362 00:26:34.839 --> 00:26:40.480 and that doesn't necessarily mean that they've eliminated him as a suspect. I certainly 363 00:26:40.480 --> 00:26:42.880 don't believe there's enough evidence to actually make an arrest. But even if you 364 00:26:42.920 --> 00:26:47.839 discount Anthony's lying, I believe there's enough reason to be suspicious of them. 365 00:26:48.119 --> 00:26:52.079 A strand of Claudia's hair was found in Anthony's vehicle, and a tracking dog 366 00:26:52.200 --> 00:26:56.079 detected or sent there, which might not be suspicious on its own, since 367 00:26:56.119 --> 00:27:00.160 by his own admission, he did drive Claudia to a nightclub. However, 368 00:27:00.279 --> 00:27:03.480 it's a bit more troubling that our scent was detected inside the trunk. The 369 00:27:03.559 --> 00:27:07.240 scent being detected on a pair of Anthony's boots could be explained away, since 370 00:27:07.240 --> 00:27:10.920 he could have warned them on the night he went out with her. But 371 00:27:11.000 --> 00:27:14.319 it's a bit more troubling that it was detected on a pair of gloves. 372 00:27:14.799 --> 00:27:19.400 Why would Anthony be wearing those on a date he wouldn't be, so in 373 00:27:19.640 --> 00:27:26.039 my core, I have to ask, like, what was this dog detecting? 374 00:27:26.920 --> 00:27:29.799 Was it trained to pick up like let's say a bloodhound and a missing 375 00:27:29.880 --> 00:27:33.279 child, where they smell, you know, their clothes and their hair brushes 376 00:27:33.319 --> 00:27:37.000 and their teddy bears, and they get that scent of the familiar person, 377 00:27:37.119 --> 00:27:41.119 right, and they chase the scent of that living person. If that's the 378 00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:45.559 case, I truly believe it's very, very possible that a dog would hit 379 00:27:45.599 --> 00:27:51.599 on transferable sense. Why those gloves would have been mixed up. Maybe they 380 00:27:51.599 --> 00:27:53.920 were in the trunk, maybe they were folded up with towels that were in 381 00:27:53.960 --> 00:27:59.640 the car. I don't know. I'm not saying it's not possible that this 382 00:27:59.680 --> 00:28:03.960 dog is very accurate. But for some reason, dog sniffing evidence really bothers 383 00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:07.160 me, And so when I think about it, I have to know, 384 00:28:07.240 --> 00:28:10.960 like, if it's detecting decay, like in the Kaylee Anthony case, right, 385 00:28:11.000 --> 00:28:14.599 in Casey Anthony case, then we have a problem, right, like 386 00:28:14.680 --> 00:28:18.480 we have a death smell that that dog's trained to detect. But if it's 387 00:28:18.519 --> 00:28:25.200 simply transfer smells of familiarity, then how much would that really tell us? 388 00:28:25.279 --> 00:28:30.119 Could those gloves have been caught up in other things that had Claudia sent naturally 389 00:28:30.319 --> 00:28:33.440 on them? And then there's the fact that Anthony called in sick on a 390 00:28:33.559 --> 00:28:38.000 date after Claudia was last seen and did not return to work for four days 391 00:28:38.799 --> 00:28:42.519 on its own. That might not look so suspicious, but it seems like 392 00:28:42.640 --> 00:28:48.519 one hell of a coincidence that Leo Lambert, the resort's head of public relations, 393 00:28:48.039 --> 00:28:52.480 just happened to be absent from work on those exact same days. And 394 00:28:52.559 --> 00:28:57.319 I'm not trying to imply that Lambert himself personally harmed Claudia, but I get 395 00:28:57.359 --> 00:29:02.519 the impression that there had to be more than one person involved in what happened 396 00:29:02.519 --> 00:29:06.519 to her. It's really tough to know what to make of Lambert because he 397 00:29:06.680 --> 00:29:12.400 intentionally twisted information Tanya Grossinger provided to him at the press conference about Claudia's disappearance. 398 00:29:14.039 --> 00:29:17.960 In fact, he pretty much devolved into victim blaming when he pushed forward 399 00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:22.880 the idea that Claudia ran off with a secret lover. Lambert then admitted to 400 00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:26.839 lying to Claudia's parents about having seen her at the resort after the last confirmed 401 00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:30.640 sighting of her. But you have to ask was he doing all this just 402 00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:36.599 to protect the resort's reputation and dispel the idea that violent crime might have taken 403 00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:41.119 place there, or did he actually have direct knowledge or involvement in what happened. 404 00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:45.400 I think here what's really kind of crazy is Leo Lambert. Didn't he 405 00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:48.519 apply for like a passport or yes, tried to leave the country right when 406 00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:51.680 all of this happened. Yeah, like it didn't get that far. But 407 00:29:51.920 --> 00:29:53.599 he said he was trying to apply for a new one. And that really 408 00:29:53.640 --> 00:29:57.519 gives off the impression that if something is about to go down, I have 409 00:29:57.599 --> 00:30:03.160 to leave the country really quick. Yeah, and that's more than just like, 410 00:30:03.200 --> 00:30:04.799 hey, I kind of feel bad about what happened here. I'm the 411 00:30:04.839 --> 00:30:08.839 PR person. I could be at risk, like the fact that your PR 412 00:30:10.039 --> 00:30:12.440 stunt was to spin this, right, like a PR person is a spend 413 00:30:12.440 --> 00:30:15.519 doctor. I studied that. That was my major in college, So I'm 414 00:30:15.519 --> 00:30:19.720 going to spin it to benefit my institution, right, Jules like thing we 415 00:30:19.839 --> 00:30:25.000 harp on all the time. But he went dirty, he went low, 416 00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:29.000 and he made sure that everyone who knew about Beaches Resort knew that if you 417 00:30:29.079 --> 00:30:34.079 are not a scandalous drug induced, sex craved woman, that you are not 418 00:30:34.160 --> 00:30:37.039 going to be harmed at our institution, right, Like that our resort is 419 00:30:37.079 --> 00:30:42.839 safe unless you're like this woman. And so then you see him lying, 420 00:30:44.400 --> 00:30:48.160 covering, victim blaming and in this idea of like I'm chasing a passport, 421 00:30:48.599 --> 00:30:52.960 what were you running from? Why? Other than just like I mean, 422 00:30:52.160 --> 00:30:56.480 so you see Gordon Butch here take a stance where he's like, listen, 423 00:30:56.400 --> 00:31:00.279 I am sorry for what happened. I I'm going to get the reward money. 424 00:31:00.440 --> 00:31:06.039 I have chastised my employees. I am trying to make changes. Do 425 00:31:06.079 --> 00:31:08.559 I think he did enough? I don't know. I don't have enough information 426 00:31:08.559 --> 00:31:14.759 to decide that was he protecting his brand absolutely, but at least he stepped 427 00:31:14.799 --> 00:31:18.799 forward and said I am sorry for what happened. If nothing else, the 428 00:31:18.920 --> 00:31:23.119 humanity and that for the family was huge. And then you have Leo Lambert 429 00:31:23.160 --> 00:31:26.599 who literally takes exactly what Butch had said and kind of throws it in the 430 00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:32.400 family's face of your daughter is accountable for what happened to her, And I'm 431 00:31:32.440 --> 00:31:34.519 going to run away from that. I don't know. There's something about me 432 00:31:34.599 --> 00:31:37.240 that wants to grab Leo Lambert and just kind of shake him and say, 433 00:31:37.279 --> 00:31:42.079 what is wrong with you? Like the damage you do to this family and 434 00:31:42.319 --> 00:31:47.920 to your business looks really bad. So one day we have to take a 435 00:31:47.920 --> 00:31:51.880 trip to Jamaica just so you can track him down and shake him. Leo, 436 00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:56.319 I am coming for you, for you the victim blaming. I'm coming 437 00:31:56.480 --> 00:32:00.440 well. The fact that potentially important evidence happen to go missing from Beaches a 438 00:32:00.519 --> 00:32:07.680 Grille gives off the impression that something sinister took place Sharikap once the hotel staff 439 00:32:07.720 --> 00:32:10.680 realized that Claudia was missing and rented it to other guests before the police had 440 00:32:10.680 --> 00:32:15.559 a chance to process it as a potential crime scene, and they recorded over 441 00:32:15.559 --> 00:32:19.640 footage from a surveillance camera which overlooked a room. Now, I have my 442 00:32:19.759 --> 00:32:23.319 doubts that something actually happened to Claudia inside the room. But let's combine this 443 00:32:23.400 --> 00:32:28.759 with the other odd mistakes the resort made. They lost that particular month's log 444 00:32:28.839 --> 00:32:30.839 book, which kept a record of all the vehicles that went in and out 445 00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:36.000 of the hotel. They somehow lost Claudia's cell phone after collecting it from a 446 00:32:36.079 --> 00:32:39.559 room, and they took the initiative of developing the film inside or camera without 447 00:32:39.599 --> 00:32:45.319 consulting anyone and likely destroyed it. I know they claimed there were no photographs 448 00:32:45.319 --> 00:32:49.519 on the role, but I find that very unlikely, as Claudia's entire job 449 00:32:49.559 --> 00:32:52.839 involved traveling to tourist destinations and documenting them, So there's no way she would 450 00:32:52.839 --> 00:32:58.640 have spent a couple days in Jamaica without taking any pictures. No, not 451 00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:00.920 at all. And I'm just in my head, like white year, was 452 00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:06.400 this that we took this camera? Okay, at that time, I'm assuming 453 00:33:06.400 --> 00:33:08.720 they still were taking the film into the like into a Walmart or into a 454 00:33:08.799 --> 00:33:14.400 Walgreens or a photo development place, right I think? So, yeah, 455 00:33:14.480 --> 00:33:16.359 like this is still old school film where you would have to get it developed. 456 00:33:16.359 --> 00:33:19.880 You could just like pull it up like on a cell phone camera. 457 00:33:20.759 --> 00:33:24.440 Okay, So at that point, that's a lot of effort in my opinion, 458 00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:30.519 you have a room that your boss is basically saying, this room should 459 00:33:30.519 --> 00:33:34.720 have been vacated. It wasn't gathered the belongings. Move them to the front 460 00:33:34.720 --> 00:33:38.039 desk and we'll figure out what happened. Who in their right mind said one, 461 00:33:38.079 --> 00:33:42.880 I'm going to take our cell phone and two I found this camera. 462 00:33:43.400 --> 00:33:46.680 I'm going to give the film to my boss, or two you know management, 463 00:33:46.960 --> 00:33:51.160 and we're actually going to take the step to go outside of the property 464 00:33:51.599 --> 00:33:55.079 developed the film, look at it and do this assessment. That is not 465 00:33:55.240 --> 00:34:00.440 your place. It is absolutely questionable. Why this resident, why did this 466 00:34:00.559 --> 00:34:07.039 visitor not check out? There's a problem. Whether she attentially ran off, 467 00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:12.800 whether she disappeared, whether she was killed, something happened. So in my 468 00:34:12.840 --> 00:34:16.320 head, I'm just I cannot fathom who sat back and said, hey, 469 00:34:16.360 --> 00:34:22.599 take this film and go get it developed. It seems very very questionable, 470 00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:28.000 and in my opinion, it would show Anthony. It would show that local 471 00:34:28.119 --> 00:34:32.800 bar hang out. If I was me and I was sitting there traveling finding 472 00:34:32.800 --> 00:34:37.559 these new experiences with people going to local culture. If that's who I am, 473 00:34:37.239 --> 00:34:43.480 I'm a travel blogger. I'm going to take so many pictures because it 474 00:34:43.519 --> 00:34:47.599 takes one hundred pictures to get that one photo worthy magazine spread to say this 475 00:34:47.679 --> 00:34:52.679 is my experience in Jamaica. There's no way that film didn't contain information about 476 00:34:52.679 --> 00:34:57.920 her last whereabouts. There's no way, and who, like where on the 477 00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:04.920 chain did it get kicked out to these employees to make this concerted collaborative effort 478 00:35:05.239 --> 00:35:09.519 to obviously, it seems like they're concealing evidence, Like why are they so 479 00:35:09.639 --> 00:35:15.079 invested and so involved? It feels like somebody further up the chain had to 480 00:35:15.119 --> 00:35:21.599 instruct them to do this, unless they themselves were personally involved or had knowledge 481 00:35:21.639 --> 00:35:24.440 as to what had happened to Claudia exactly. I mean, it'd be one 482 00:35:24.440 --> 00:35:29.599 thing if the police took the initiative to develop the photographs, because that's technically 483 00:35:29.719 --> 00:35:32.599 potential evidence. But I just don't know why, like a hotel staff would 484 00:35:32.639 --> 00:35:36.960 go to that trouble on their own, and it seems very likely that there 485 00:35:37.039 --> 00:35:39.599 was something on that film they didn't want anyone to see. And same thing 486 00:35:39.599 --> 00:35:43.280 with the cell phone, like they could have lost it by accident, but 487 00:35:43.400 --> 00:35:46.360 maybe Claudia made a phone call to someone prior to her disappearance or received a 488 00:35:46.400 --> 00:35:51.039 call, and they did not want that person's name showing up on Claudia's call 489 00:35:51.119 --> 00:35:54.400 logs, So that's why they made her cell phone disappear. So if only 490 00:35:54.480 --> 00:35:59.199 one or two of these mistakes had occurred, we could probably just write them 491 00:35:59.239 --> 00:36:02.880 off as sloppy or incompetence. But when you combine all of these things together, 492 00:36:04.039 --> 00:36:07.960 it seems pretty deliberate. Now, I'm not trying to say that Sandals 493 00:36:07.960 --> 00:36:14.199 Resorts Incorporated perpetuated some mammoth conspiracy in order to cover up what happened. In 494 00:36:14.239 --> 00:36:17.480 our last episode, we mentioned that the owner of Sandals, Gordon Butch Stewart, 495 00:36:17.719 --> 00:36:22.639 is one of the wealthiest, most influential people in Jamaica, and Fred 496 00:36:22.679 --> 00:36:25.719 and Maryann Kershok had nothing but good things to say about how he treated them. 497 00:36:27.159 --> 00:36:30.599 Stewart covered all their travel expenses, contributed to the reward fund, paid 498 00:36:30.639 --> 00:36:35.679 for radio ads which helped spread the word about Claudia's case in the media, 499 00:36:35.800 --> 00:36:39.760 and he seemed just as disappointed as the Kerrshaks by how Beach's Negro handled her 500 00:36:39.800 --> 00:36:45.960 disappearance. However, even though Leo Lambert was supposedly reprimanded for how he conducted 501 00:36:46.039 --> 00:36:51.840 himself during that press conference, a Google search revealed that Lambert was still working 502 00:36:51.880 --> 00:36:55.920 as Sandals corporate pr director for years afterwards, so it doesn't look like his 503 00:36:57.000 --> 00:37:01.639 actions cost him his job. Again. More details about how the lawsuit between 504 00:37:01.719 --> 00:37:07.559 Sandals and the Kershaws turned out might shed more light on how complicit the resort 505 00:37:07.760 --> 00:37:12.280 was. For sure, it absolutely would. And I'm with the Kershaws where 506 00:37:12.280 --> 00:37:17.199 you look at this fact that Leo Lambert took your daughter's character and he slandered 507 00:37:17.239 --> 00:37:22.119 it in the media. Right, he's presenting that your daughter's the reason that 508 00:37:22.239 --> 00:37:28.000 this happened. Your resort has no responsibility in the issue. And then, 509 00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:30.360 like you said, you see that he's actually still in the same position. 510 00:37:30.679 --> 00:37:35.599 I remember, like you, you see this at institutions like the military or 511 00:37:35.800 --> 00:37:39.639 universities where a student comes forward and says, you know, a dean assaulted 512 00:37:39.679 --> 00:37:45.280 me or a dean abused me, and then you look after this claim has 513 00:37:45.280 --> 00:37:47.559 came out and the dean is promoted to a vice president position, right, 514 00:37:47.639 --> 00:37:53.079 and you rack your brain of saying, where was the accountability? Where was 515 00:37:53.159 --> 00:37:59.000 the punishment? Because the victim is going to hold all of those consequences. 516 00:37:59.119 --> 00:38:04.800 And it's almost as if Leo Lambert's rewarded or slapped on the wrist for what 517 00:38:04.920 --> 00:38:08.119 he did, and what he did was very damaging. When you say Claudia 518 00:38:08.280 --> 00:38:15.719 caused her disappearance, Claudia's behavior holds her accountable for what happened, you are 519 00:38:15.800 --> 00:38:20.920 basically saying like, I don't care, we are not responsible, and so 520 00:38:21.039 --> 00:38:22.800 for me, it causes a community to look at that and say, well, 521 00:38:22.960 --> 00:38:27.239 neither are we. Why would we care? Why would we come forward 522 00:38:27.239 --> 00:38:31.679 when Claudia's to blame and I don't behave in that scandalous manner that Leoso presented. 523 00:38:32.440 --> 00:38:35.760 So if you want to go to Jamaica and track him down and shake 524 00:38:35.800 --> 00:38:37.320 him, you at least know that he's still working for Beaches and a Grille, 525 00:38:37.400 --> 00:38:40.079 so it won't be hard to find him. Well, I need them 526 00:38:40.119 --> 00:38:46.280 to pay for my trip, okay, but go fund me, you guys, 527 00:38:46.320 --> 00:38:50.920 start to go fund me for me. But you have to ask if 528 00:38:50.920 --> 00:38:53.480 the resort was complicit, would they really have gone to all this trouble just 529 00:38:53.519 --> 00:38:58.800 to protect a bartender like Anthony Grant. Well, this is why some people 530 00:38:58.800 --> 00:39:02.159 have speculated that even if Anthony was not directly responsible for what had happened to 531 00:39:02.159 --> 00:39:07.360 Claudia, he might have introduced her to the person who was, And perhaps 532 00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:10.719 this person was much higher on the food chain and exerted enough influence to compel 533 00:39:10.760 --> 00:39:15.159 the resort to dispose of evidence which pointed to their involvement. But how would 534 00:39:15.159 --> 00:39:19.719 these events have played out? Well, we know that Claudia was last seen 535 00:39:19.760 --> 00:39:22.519 on seven Mile Beach, but like its title suggests, this was a very 536 00:39:22.599 --> 00:39:27.639 large beach which was seven miles long. We have no idea what exact spot 537 00:39:27.719 --> 00:39:30.079 she was planning to settle down at, or if it was isolated enough that 538 00:39:30.159 --> 00:39:35.760 she could have been attacked in broad daylight without anyone seeing anything. Now it's 539 00:39:35.800 --> 00:39:39.320 possible that nothing even happened at the beach and Claudie instead wound up meeting someone 540 00:39:39.360 --> 00:39:45.039 and left with them voluntarily. Even though all the sources described the exact items 541 00:39:45.079 --> 00:39:49.719 which were missing from Claudia's hotel room, one detail which isn't clear is if 542 00:39:49.719 --> 00:39:52.280 she took any footwear with her. If she was only planning to walk along 543 00:39:52.280 --> 00:39:55.599 the beach, she might have decided to leave barefoot, But I'm not sure 544 00:39:55.639 --> 00:40:00.320 if she would have willingly gone somewhere else without returning to her room get some 545 00:40:00.360 --> 00:40:02.960 shoes as well as change your clothing, since all she had on was a 546 00:40:02.960 --> 00:40:07.480 bikini and a T shirt. I guess it kind of depends on what the 547 00:40:07.719 --> 00:40:12.480 layout of that space was like. If you left the resort and walked straight 548 00:40:12.519 --> 00:40:15.599 onto the beach and she, in my opinion, she could have very easily 549 00:40:15.639 --> 00:40:20.199 been going to meet people that she had met, like locals that were going 550 00:40:20.239 --> 00:40:22.239 to be on the beach, other resort goers that were going to be on 551 00:40:22.280 --> 00:40:25.239 the beach, and or she was hanging out by herself and met people they 552 00:40:25.239 --> 00:40:29.840 were out of the beach. Claudia does not sound like somebody who's going to 553 00:40:29.920 --> 00:40:35.239 sit there and just be isolated from socialization. Right. She's my dale, 554 00:40:35.400 --> 00:40:38.760 my friend who makes a friend in a grocery store at the mall. Right 555 00:40:38.760 --> 00:40:42.960 Like wherever she goes, she's going to make a friend. That's how Claudia 556 00:40:43.079 --> 00:40:46.559 sounds to me. So if Claudia was then going to come back to a 557 00:40:46.679 --> 00:40:51.559 resort room or go to a quote, another place to just kind of hang 558 00:40:51.639 --> 00:40:54.639 out. If she thought she was being led to just another beach area, 559 00:40:54.840 --> 00:40:57.960 or if she thought she was going to go back to kind of a more 560 00:40:58.039 --> 00:41:01.119 resort hangout area with sand and things like that, I could see her not 561 00:41:01.199 --> 00:41:06.079 needing to go change. She's in the same environment. But the fact that 562 00:41:06.119 --> 00:41:08.440 if she was going to be going out later that night, I do think 563 00:41:08.480 --> 00:41:10.719 she would have come back and changed. I think you would have found her 564 00:41:10.719 --> 00:41:15.719 wet bait ensued and her kind of beach clothes, and you would have seen 565 00:41:15.760 --> 00:41:20.719 a different kind of outfit missing. However, would Claudia have even left with 566 00:41:20.800 --> 00:41:25.320 someone else voluntarily since she supposedly turned down a second date with Anthony Grant, 567 00:41:25.800 --> 00:41:29.840 I don't know if that would imply that she wanted nothing more to do with 568 00:41:29.920 --> 00:41:34.119 him. We also have the odd account of these two men, one of 569 00:41:34.159 --> 00:41:37.400 them a Hotel jet Ski instructor, who supposedly showed up at the front desk 570 00:41:37.519 --> 00:41:43.280 asking for Claudia after she went missing, but then denied that this ever happened. 571 00:41:43.760 --> 00:41:46.760 Details about this whole situation or sketchy. But if they're not telling the 572 00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:52.199 truth, does that mean Claudia became acquainted with these guys or any other men 573 00:41:52.320 --> 00:41:55.159 during her stay there. Well, she was at the resort for at least 574 00:41:55.199 --> 00:41:59.679 three days, so that definitely could have happened. But as far as I 575 00:41:59.760 --> 00:42:04.800 can hell, she never told Kanya Grossinger about any encounters with any men besides 576 00:42:04.840 --> 00:42:09.519 Anthony Grant. Now, the Kershaws eventually received an anonymous letter which claimed that 577 00:42:09.559 --> 00:42:14.559 Claudia died because she had a fatal reaction to a date rate drug which was 578 00:42:14.559 --> 00:42:17.599 slipped into her drink at a party. This has also been pushed forward as 579 00:42:17.599 --> 00:42:23.199 a potential theory for Natalie Holloway's disappearance, and it's certainly plausible here. Whoever 580 00:42:23.320 --> 00:42:28.800 was responsible may never have planned on killing Claudia, but once she reacted badly 581 00:42:28.800 --> 00:42:31.320 to the drug, they had to cover up the whole thing and dispose of 582 00:42:31.320 --> 00:42:36.440 her body. If one or more employees from the resort were complicit in this, 583 00:42:36.679 --> 00:42:40.239 then it would definitely explain their need to destroy potential evidence and orchestra to 584 00:42:40.280 --> 00:42:45.079 cover up. I'm with you, I mean, Anthony Grant alone was not 585 00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:51.320 worth covering all of these things, having this kind of conspiracy theory going against 586 00:42:51.320 --> 00:42:54.639 Claudia and her family. But if you had multiple people at the resort who 587 00:42:54.679 --> 00:43:00.920 were complicit in this act. Right, we also went out with this client. 588 00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:04.960 We also went out with this customer, and we were the ones who 589 00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:08.280 slipped with the drink, right, Like I could easily see this being a 590 00:43:08.320 --> 00:43:13.679 group effort that kind of wolf packs Claudia and kind of convinces her that she's 591 00:43:13.679 --> 00:43:17.079 in the safe group that came from the resort. And even as high up 592 00:43:17.079 --> 00:43:21.800 as Leo, like, I wonder what caused him to take such a negative 593 00:43:21.880 --> 00:43:25.519 view towards Claudia instead of following Bush's lead, his boss's lead and saying like 594 00:43:25.800 --> 00:43:30.079 this is tragic. We messed up. I'm so sorry. Was he in 595 00:43:30.119 --> 00:43:37.639 some way related to, very close to or knowledgeable of what was happening. 596 00:43:37.519 --> 00:43:40.039 Maybe he had a role to play though, do you know what I mean? 597 00:43:40.079 --> 00:43:43.519 Like, it's easy for the top guy to take the role. And 598 00:43:43.559 --> 00:43:45.199 I'm not saying this is what happened here, but it is easy for the 599 00:43:45.239 --> 00:43:49.719 person who's the figurehead, he's the wealthy guy, to be the quote unquote 600 00:43:49.760 --> 00:43:52.599 good guy and to have somebody lower down the food chain do the dirty work 601 00:43:53.000 --> 00:43:57.440 and say those things and then see how it lands. And then when it 602 00:43:57.480 --> 00:44:00.599 doesn't lad. It's easy to step forward and be like, I'm very disappointed 603 00:44:00.599 --> 00:44:04.280 by the way that was handled. But would that have been the same reaction 604 00:44:04.440 --> 00:44:07.480 if her parents didn't kick up a stink and the media in the US some 605 00:44:07.719 --> 00:44:12.480 outlets didn't catch on to this and make it a big deal. Is it 606 00:44:12.519 --> 00:44:15.800 more for optics or was it a genuine response? That's true, There is 607 00:44:15.840 --> 00:44:20.400 a good possibility that if this had been some other woman who didn't hail from 608 00:44:20.400 --> 00:44:22.920 such a prominent family, who didn't have a family who were such an activists, 609 00:44:22.960 --> 00:44:28.079 that the general public would have just accepted this explanation that she ran out 610 00:44:28.119 --> 00:44:30.639 voluntarily in this case would have faded from the spotlights. So that may have 611 00:44:30.639 --> 00:44:34.599 been their intention all along and went a backfire. They were like, Okay, 612 00:44:34.639 --> 00:44:37.480 now we have to try to be helpful to the family in order to 613 00:44:37.519 --> 00:44:42.559 improve our optics. But how or when did Claudia wind up at this party 614 00:44:42.639 --> 00:44:45.119 mentioned in the letter? If the sighting of her on the beach is accurate, 615 00:44:45.280 --> 00:44:49.079 did she really go from there to a party dressed to nothing more than 616 00:44:49.119 --> 00:44:52.360 a bikini in a T shirt. Well, if the party took place on 617 00:44:52.400 --> 00:44:54.960 the beach, then I guess that's a possible explanation, but we have no 618 00:44:55.079 --> 00:45:00.599 idea of Claudia's exact whereabouts after one thirty pm on the app noon of May 619 00:45:00.639 --> 00:45:04.880 twenty seventh. However, if the scenario outlined in the letter is the truth, 620 00:45:05.199 --> 00:45:07.639 that I would not be surprised if Anthony Grant was involved in some way, 621 00:45:08.039 --> 00:45:12.679 even if he was not directly responsible. He could have brought Claudia to 622 00:45:12.719 --> 00:45:16.159 this party and introduced her to the individual who slipped a date rate drugs into 623 00:45:16.159 --> 00:45:21.280 her drink. Wherever did this could have enlisted Anthony's help to get rid of 624 00:45:21.320 --> 00:45:25.039 Claudia's body, which would explain why her scent was detected inside his car trunk. 625 00:45:25.599 --> 00:45:30.559 But overall, without a body or any evidence that a crime took place, 626 00:45:30.760 --> 00:45:34.280 we can only speculate. The only thing I know for certain is that 627 00:45:34.320 --> 00:45:38.000 Claudia did not take off voluntarily and go off to live with some Jamaican lover. 628 00:45:38.639 --> 00:45:43.239 She definitely became the victim of foul play, and it's very likely that 629 00:45:43.360 --> 00:45:46.760 multiple people were involved or at least have knowledge about what happened. Given that 630 00:45:46.840 --> 00:45:51.880 two decades of past and there was so much red tape holding up the investigation, 631 00:45:52.360 --> 00:45:55.039 we may never know the actual truth and Sadly, I'm not sure if 632 00:45:55.079 --> 00:46:00.400 Claudia's loved ones will ever get full answers. All that being said, should 633 00:46:00.400 --> 00:46:04.679 you happen to have any information on the unsolved disappearance of Claudia Kirshock, please 634 00:46:04.719 --> 00:46:08.519 contact the appropriate authorities. Jules Ashley. Any final thoughts on this case, 635 00:46:09.559 --> 00:46:14.400 I guess the only final thoughts I have is it again when we look at 636 00:46:14.400 --> 00:46:19.000 a missing person's case. Claudia was twenty nine years old. She was a 637 00:46:19.039 --> 00:46:24.880 successful businesswoman who got deterred and derailed away from a trip to Cuba to cover 638 00:46:25.159 --> 00:46:30.599 a resort. And she gets put onto this resort in Jamaica where she's going 639 00:46:30.639 --> 00:46:35.039 to spend a week, and she says, yes, yes, I'm going 640 00:46:35.079 --> 00:46:37.679 to take this chance. I'm going to have this opportunity, and I'm going 641 00:46:37.760 --> 00:46:43.039 to just enjoy life, right like any twenty nine year old would do. 642 00:46:43.639 --> 00:46:47.199 She meets this bartender who's incredibly charming, who's kind, who convinces her he's 643 00:46:47.239 --> 00:46:52.440 safe enough to take on this kind of backyard tour of where he grew up 644 00:46:52.480 --> 00:46:55.320 and people he cares about and places he loves, and she says yes. 645 00:46:55.880 --> 00:47:00.679 And so I feel like, as a young woman or used to be a 646 00:47:00.760 --> 00:47:05.880 young woman. Yeah, you know, I'm not that old, but I 647 00:47:05.920 --> 00:47:08.800 can relate to that. I can relate to the thrill and the charm that 648 00:47:08.840 --> 00:47:14.719 would have come with being in a different location, finding someone who found an 649 00:47:14.719 --> 00:47:17.239 intrigue with me and saying, I'm going to show you my life. There's 650 00:47:17.239 --> 00:47:20.920 an honor in that, right and a kind of a charm in that, 651 00:47:21.280 --> 00:47:27.079 And so she says yes and goes and it's never seen again. It blows 652 00:47:27.239 --> 00:47:31.440 my mind that no one knows what happened to this girl, and no one, 653 00:47:31.800 --> 00:47:37.199 with the passages of time, has said I'm not connected to these people 654 00:47:37.199 --> 00:47:40.519 anymore. I'm not scared of these people anymore. The consequences are not big 655 00:47:40.679 --> 00:47:45.559 enough for me to keep my mouth shut anymore. That's basically all we have 656 00:47:45.800 --> 00:47:51.400 going for us is that time will eventually be a benefit where Claudia's case and 657 00:47:51.480 --> 00:47:54.880 Claudia's legacy will be honored because the passage of time allows someone to have the 658 00:47:54.960 --> 00:48:00.679 guts to say I know what happened. I think Anthony's the most likely to 659 00:48:00.719 --> 00:48:04.840 know what happened. I don't know that he's responsible, but I do know 660 00:48:04.920 --> 00:48:08.800 that Claudia's family is at a standstill of saying how do we grieve? How 661 00:48:08.840 --> 00:48:14.039 do we process? How do we heal when we don't know what happened to 662 00:48:14.039 --> 00:48:17.920 Claudia? Who hurt her? Is she's still hurting? Or are we just 663 00:48:19.159 --> 00:48:22.400 missing our baby? Like is she deceased in somewhere where we can't hold her 664 00:48:22.440 --> 00:48:25.760 and have her in a place to honor her one day? So my prayer 665 00:48:25.880 --> 00:48:30.360 is time becomes a tool in this case. It becomes a powerful thing where 666 00:48:30.360 --> 00:48:36.039 someone says, I'm willing to talk now because Claudia and her family deserve answers. 667 00:48:37.159 --> 00:48:42.039 This case, it just breaks my heart because Claudia is this young woman 668 00:48:42.079 --> 00:48:45.440 who's so vibrant. She's out there living her best life, and she meets 669 00:48:45.440 --> 00:48:50.639 this guy on vacation. She goes out, which one should do. Reminds 670 00:48:50.679 --> 00:48:53.079 me of when I went to Hawaii when I graduated high school. I went 671 00:48:53.079 --> 00:48:57.000 with one of my best friends. My aunt lived in Hawaii, and we 672 00:48:57.039 --> 00:49:00.400 went there for like eleven days. We met these two guys. One was 673 00:49:00.440 --> 00:49:04.840 a proser for one was a model, and we saw them as much as 674 00:49:04.840 --> 00:49:07.159 we could until my aunt finally was like, no more, you're grounded. 675 00:49:07.199 --> 00:49:09.639 On the last night, you're not allowed to go out, And we were 676 00:49:09.639 --> 00:49:13.639 like screw it, We're gonna go out anyways. And at that point in 677 00:49:13.679 --> 00:49:16.519 time, we're at this random person's house. You're in this strange place. 678 00:49:16.599 --> 00:49:22.159 Anything could have happened to us. So I envisioned a situation for Claudia where 679 00:49:22.199 --> 00:49:25.960 do I think that Anthony Grant is the one that's responsible? Personally? I 680 00:49:27.000 --> 00:49:30.159 don't think he is directly responsible, because I do think it's really telling about 681 00:49:30.199 --> 00:49:36.679 the one polygraph question. But I do think that he introduced Claudia somehow to 682 00:49:36.800 --> 00:49:42.320 the individuals that are responsible. Whether or not it was overdosed because somebody slipped 683 00:49:42.320 --> 00:49:45.039 her the date rape drug. That does sound like a really plausible situation. 684 00:49:45.599 --> 00:49:51.639 Then several people would be kind of incahoots trying to cover this up. And 685 00:49:51.920 --> 00:49:58.239 I don't know what Leo Lambert's connection was why he was trying to Basically, 686 00:49:58.280 --> 00:50:00.320 he was trying to slutch shame Claudia, saying she ran off with this guy 687 00:50:00.440 --> 00:50:05.079 she was out there with, kind of like implying that she had loose morals 688 00:50:05.119 --> 00:50:07.400 and that this was her fault, and then being like, she just ran 689 00:50:07.480 --> 00:50:10.639 off with a random men, which there would be no reason for her to 690 00:50:10.679 --> 00:50:15.519 do because she seemed really happy in her job she kept in close communication with 691 00:50:15.559 --> 00:50:17.760 her parents at all times, and she always came home. What does she 692 00:50:17.800 --> 00:50:22.000 have to run away from. She literally travels for a living, writes about 693 00:50:22.039 --> 00:50:25.320 it, and she gets paid. So I just don't see any situation where 694 00:50:25.360 --> 00:50:30.039 she would leave willingly. But if she wasn't her bathing suit in the middle 695 00:50:30.039 --> 00:50:31.840 of the day, I think it's likely that she was lured away to some 696 00:50:31.960 --> 00:50:36.079 party. I don't know if it was like ashe said that they were had 697 00:50:36.079 --> 00:50:37.960 the intention of wolf packing her. But I think if you're going to date, 698 00:50:38.039 --> 00:50:42.280 rape, drug this foreign this girl from a foreign country, knowing that 699 00:50:42.320 --> 00:50:45.199 she's going to be leaving soon, I think there could have been nefarious intentions 700 00:50:45.239 --> 00:50:49.960 on the part of several individuals, because it seems like this cover up was 701 00:50:50.039 --> 00:50:52.800 really far reaching, And I don't know that it was far reaching because of 702 00:50:52.840 --> 00:50:58.880 certain individuals or because of the institution, or somebody high up in the institution 703 00:50:59.199 --> 00:51:05.840 then instruct these individuals to destroy evidence, to get the camera film developed, 704 00:51:05.880 --> 00:51:08.480 and then basically being like there was nothing on there, there was no pictures, 705 00:51:08.519 --> 00:51:12.519 when we know that just isn't true. It seems like they went to 706 00:51:12.679 --> 00:51:16.599 a great deal of effort to do all of these things. There must have 707 00:51:16.639 --> 00:51:20.920 been somebody who was pulling the strings there and instructing them to do so, 708 00:51:21.159 --> 00:51:23.199 because who would do that of their own accord. You know, no one's 709 00:51:23.239 --> 00:51:28.880 going to on their spare time dig into this unless they actually had the intention 710 00:51:28.960 --> 00:51:31.400 of finding out what happened to Claudia. If they already knew and it was 711 00:51:31.440 --> 00:51:36.880 just this big cover up, then they're playing a role. They're just pawns 712 00:51:37.000 --> 00:51:40.320 in this greater scheme. Whether or not Butch knew, I'm not sure. 713 00:51:40.519 --> 00:51:44.679 I think that it could go either way, that maybe he really did just 714 00:51:44.800 --> 00:51:50.440 innocently stumble upon this resort that handled everything poorly. But maybe because I'm cynical, 715 00:51:50.480 --> 00:51:53.599 I'm more inclined to believe that he was far more plugged in and more 716 00:51:53.639 --> 00:51:59.920 aware of the situation than the public and the Kershaws might have been aware of. 717 00:52:00.559 --> 00:52:02.880 But that's just my own opinion that's obviously not based in fact. We've 718 00:52:02.920 --> 00:52:07.519 got nothing to substantiate that. But overall, I really just hope that somebody 719 00:52:07.599 --> 00:52:12.960 at some point really feels bad about this. So many years have gone by 720 00:52:13.000 --> 00:52:15.400 that I wish somebody would come forward, and I really hope that I get 721 00:52:15.400 --> 00:52:21.519 to see the day that Ashley goes and shakes Leo Lambert exactly. That's our 722 00:52:21.639 --> 00:52:24.159 number one goal here. Yeah, I'm coming guys. I'm feeling like a 723 00:52:24.199 --> 00:52:29.800 crowdsource thing. We make this happen. But yeah, like we've talked about 724 00:52:29.800 --> 00:52:34.199 this before, how missing persons cases in which someone vanishes in a foreign country 725 00:52:34.199 --> 00:52:37.400 are just like the absolute worst nightmare for their loved ones because not only do 726 00:52:37.440 --> 00:52:40.960 you have to go through the trauma of having someone you care about disappear with 727 00:52:42.079 --> 00:52:45.559 that explanation, but you also have to go through a massive red tape. 728 00:52:45.599 --> 00:52:49.800 You have to learn the new customs and the way investigations are handled in a 729 00:52:49.800 --> 00:52:52.719 country you're not familiar with. And that's what happened with Natalie Holloway. It's 730 00:52:52.760 --> 00:52:57.360 one of the most high profile missing persons cases of the modern era, and 731 00:52:57.440 --> 00:53:00.079 pretty much everyone knows who did it, but even after all these years, 732 00:53:00.119 --> 00:53:06.800 they've never found her body and it's technically still unsolved because the original investigation was 733 00:53:06.880 --> 00:53:09.800 so badly mishandled and there was likely a cover up. And the same thing 734 00:53:09.840 --> 00:53:15.320 may apply to Claudia Kershock, where we know she was last seeing on a 735 00:53:15.360 --> 00:53:17.840 beach, and we suspect that she was murdered, but we don't have any 736 00:53:17.880 --> 00:53:22.000 evidence. We don't know how this scenario would have unfolded. We have a 737 00:53:22.039 --> 00:53:27.519 promising person of interest and Anthony Grant, but it's possible that even though he 738 00:53:27.519 --> 00:53:30.960 probably knows what happened, he's not the one who directly caused her death. 739 00:53:30.480 --> 00:53:35.199 But this pretty much the same thing that applies here is that there are probably 740 00:53:35.280 --> 00:53:39.039 multiple people who do know, and we're multiple people involved, but no one 741 00:53:39.039 --> 00:53:43.960 has ever come forward and revealed the truth. I mean, we've had anonymous 742 00:53:43.960 --> 00:53:47.440 people come forward. We've had like the anonymous letter about how a date rate 743 00:53:47.519 --> 00:53:52.159 drug was slipped inside Claudia's drink at a party which caused her death. We 744 00:53:52.280 --> 00:53:57.559 had this anonymous caller who said that two men once told them that they sealed 745 00:53:57.599 --> 00:54:00.199 Claudia's body inside an oil drum and disposed of it. I mean, we 746 00:54:00.239 --> 00:54:05.400 have no idea if these scenarios is true, but it does suggest that rumors 747 00:54:05.400 --> 00:54:07.760 and hearsay have gone throughout the island and that there may be people out there 748 00:54:07.760 --> 00:54:13.079 whose conscience has got to them and know what happened, but they just are 749 00:54:13.119 --> 00:54:15.800 reluctant to come forward. And that's why I'm hoping that with the passage of 750 00:54:15.880 --> 00:54:20.079 time, someone will finally speak, because this was a pretty big deal in 751 00:54:20.079 --> 00:54:23.119 the early two thousands, but it seems once they had the civil trial with 752 00:54:23.199 --> 00:54:28.800 Claudia's parents and the resort, it has disappear from the spotlight and there have 753 00:54:28.920 --> 00:54:32.159 not been any new developments. And quite frankly, I'm not even a hundred 754 00:54:32.199 --> 00:54:36.800 percent sure if Claudia's parents are still alive after all these years, but it 755 00:54:36.840 --> 00:54:39.559 would be nice if they finally received justice and learn the truth about what happened 756 00:54:39.559 --> 00:54:43.960 to her and recovered her body, because I definitely think this is one of 757 00:54:44.000 --> 00:54:46.840 those cases in which someone knows something. All it might take for this case 758 00:54:46.880 --> 00:54:51.960 to break wide open is for the right person to come forward. Robin, 759 00:54:52.000 --> 00:54:53.639 do you want to tell us a little bit about the Trail Went Cold Patreon? 760 00:54:54.440 --> 00:54:58.360 Yes, The Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three years now, 761 00:54:58.400 --> 00:55:02.519 and we offer the standard bonus features like early ad free episodes, and I 762 00:55:02.559 --> 00:55:07.000 also send out stickers and sign thank you cards to anyone who signs up with 763 00:55:07.079 --> 00:55:12.599 us on Patreon if you join our five dollar tier Tier two. We also 764 00:55:12.719 --> 00:55:16.800 offer monthly bonus episodes in which I talk about cases which are not featured on 765 00:55:16.840 --> 00:55:21.840 the Trail Went Cold's original feed, so they're exclusive to Patreon and if you 766 00:55:21.920 --> 00:55:24.599 join our highest tier, Tier three, the ten dollar Tier. One of 767 00:55:24.639 --> 00:55:30.320 the features we offer is a audio commentary track over classic episodes of UNSAWD Mysteries, 768 00:55:30.519 --> 00:55:35.639 where you can download an audio file and then boot up the original UNSAWD 769 00:55:35.679 --> 00:55:40.159 Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or YouTube and play it with my audio commentary playing 770 00:55:40.159 --> 00:55:45.400 in the background, where I just provide trivia and factoids about the cases featured 771 00:55:45.440 --> 00:55:49.199 in this episode. And incidentally, the very first episode that I did a 772 00:55:49.199 --> 00:55:52.519 commentary track over was the episode featuring this case. So if you want to 773 00:55:52.519 --> 00:55:58.360 download a commentary track in which I make more smartass remarks about Juwel Kaylor than 774 00:55:58.480 --> 00:56:00.440 be sure to join Tier three. So I want to let you know a 775 00:56:00.440 --> 00:56:05.519 little bit about the Jewels and Ashley Patreons. So there's early ad free episodes 776 00:56:05.559 --> 00:56:08.159 of The Path Went Chili. We've got our Path Went Chili minis, which 777 00:56:08.159 --> 00:56:12.239 are always over an hour, so they're not very many, but they're just 778 00:56:12.280 --> 00:56:15.800 too short to turn into a series, and we're really enjoying doing those, 779 00:56:15.880 --> 00:56:19.159 so we hope you'll check out those. Patreons will link them in the show 780 00:56:19.199 --> 00:56:22.639 notes. So I want to thank you all for listening, and any chance 781 00:56:22.679 --> 00:56:24.920 you have to share us on social media with a friend or to rate and 782 00:56:24.960 --> 00:56:29.400 review is greatly appreciate it. You can email us at the path Went Chili 783 00:56:29.480 --> 00:56:32.079 at gmail dot com. You can reach us on Twitter at the Pathwin. 784 00:56:32.480 --> 00:56:37.239 So until next time, be sure to bundle up because cold trails and chili 785 00:56:37.320 --> 00:56:40.760 pass call for warm clothing. Music by Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers Comedy