What's up y'all is Drewski and I've teamed up with Mountain Dew to produce a hilarious new basketball podcast called The due Zone with Drewski. Learn the backstories of your favorite balls and celebrities like Jamal Murray. Did you have like a favorite team? Was it the Raptors at the time? Or no? Was the Raptors even started on the topic? Come on, broid that tell you like I'm fifty, Taylor Rogues, Asian Wilson, and anymore. You won't want to miss this. Listen to The Due Zone with Drewski on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and wherever you listen to podcasts. Hey, there we have Blueire. Just wanted to take a second. Thank you for listening to this podcast. You know, everything outside it's pretty scary and uncertain, but we're committed to helping you get through your day by talking about the sports and teams that you love most. If you're looking for more great podcasts to distract you, check out Blue iirepods dot com. Thanks for listening, enjoy the podcast and stay safe. What did It do? Hardwoodknox listeners, I am Dan for Valley coming at you without Andrew d Bailly. This time, we are, as usual, super pleased to be joined by Adam Frommel, the founder and editor in chief of nbamath dot com and also a quality editor for a Bleacher Report. We are going to continue on with our decade player rankings. We are moving on to the Dallas Mavericks. This was an incredibly difficult one before we get started, though, just the usual housekeeping notes first and foremost, please please please pretty please with sugar on top, continue rating, reviewing, and subscribing to us on iTunes. The ratings and reviews will specially help out at this point, since someone was mad about something I said about Kyrie Irving on the last podcast, even though I think I defended him, or maybe they were just mad at Kyrie Irving existed in general. So let's try and offset some of those little one star shenanigans that are that are going out there. We really appreciate it. You can also find us wherever else you're consuming your podcast, be its Spotify, Google Play, Stitcher, all that good stuff. Also be sure to check us out on YouTube, where we are posting all this these podcasts if that's where you like to get your audio fix. YouTube dot com search Hardwood Knox and you will find us last, but certainly not least. Shout out to this week's sponsor for making this podcast possible. Bet online dot Ag. Remember to use the promo code blue wire all one word to receive your welcome bonus. You'll be hearing from them again in just a little bit with all of those housekeeping though it's now complete. Adam, how the hell are you doing? I'm doing great. I'm excited to be here as always, and I'm also very curious about this one star review that centered around Kyrie Irving. Can you can you elaborate on that for me? So the title of the comment was Kyrie Irving and the actual comment was foe intelligible who thinks he knows better than everyone else. And I'm wondering if they were trying to describe me or Kyrie Irving. I guess they could tectually be trying to describe you. I just thought it was he's a pseudo intellectual that thinks he knows more than everyone else, was the comment, and it was titled Kyrie. So if they're describing Kyrie, maybe they were mad that we had him at number two were in Cleveland's rankings and thought he should be lower. It sounds like a way to describe Kyrie, because I think that's like a pretty common characterization of them at this point. It might be, but then why are you giving us one star? That's all I'm saying. I don't know, but I don't think either of us would be described as a pseudo intellectual because it's like very clear that we're just not at all. Yeah, we're definitely large children. So that's like, that's another inaccuracy. So if you're mad that we spoke about Kyrie Irving, I make zero apologies, but whatever be if you have with Kyrie Irving, maybe take it up with Kyrie Irving. He said of the one star ratings on the podcast. Well, the good news is that we don't have to talk about Kyrie Irving on this podcast. We get to talk about a point guard who's much better. At some point, Wow, you really have like high opinion of JJ Berrera. I mean, I was referring to Jason Terry, but but yeah, sure, fair enough. So who do we have? Just as a quick review for maybe people who are just tuning in for the first time, Adam and I ranked our top ten players of the decade for the Dallas Mavericks. Beginning with the twenty ten twenty eleven season. We also sent out a fan survey. We compiled those three rankings together to come up with a composite score, and that's what we will be reading off. We'll also give our opinions on where we had said players and where you the fans the listeners had the players are as well. But Adam, can you get us started with who checked in at number ten? I know you were angry about this, Yeah, I can so. At number ten, we had a point guard who historically is better than Kyrie Irving, but has not been better than Kyrie Irving during the last decade. I'm just gonna try to mention him as many times as possible throughout this podcast now. But yeah, number ten, as Jason Kidd. He checked in at number seven from the fans, at number ten for you, and he did not make my top ten, though I did consider him ultimately, like his performance on the twenty eleven finals, as as great as it was and as effective as he was throughout the postseason, just didn't overcome the lack of theirness throughout this decade. He only spent two seasons there during the scope of our analysis and wasn't very good during the regular seasons. Look, Dallas is where he learned to shoot, basically, I feel like, and he shot well over those two seasons with the Mavericks I do. I would guess that there's a little bit of conflation with his entire Mavericks tenure where some people probably thought that he was there this decade longer than he was because he did arrive there in two thousand and eight, but his first you know, two plus seasons with the Mavericks don't fall under our purview. That being said, this man was absolutely huge for them during the finals with their championship run. And I totally get not putting him higher than tenth or ninth or around there because the samples isn't that huge. He was older, wasn't contributing at the level of that you would maybe expect from a top ten player in a franchise that actually has good choices to choose from. But the finals run, that entire playoff run, he was huge for them. He shot incredibly well from three during the finals. I can't overlook that that team was special and he was sort of a big part of it, and that presence he eventually brought over to the Knicks in twenty twelve. There's that steadying game, managing presence while he was on the floor, no matter how old he got, and I do think that that was valuable as well, was in theme with the other type of characters that they had on that roster when you look at a Tyson Chandler or Jason Terry and so I totally get again not putting him higher than ten, especially because of the way he dipped out in twenty twelve where he was like, yeah, I'll come back and then it was I'm actually gonna go to the Knicks. So I get all that. If you don't like Jason Kidd as a person, I totally understand that as well too. I would be inclined to think that a lot of people in Milwaukee and Brooklyn agree with you. At this point, I still think outside of those locations like in Denver for example. Yeah, there's also places in New York too, So there's just but again I understand not having him on, but there's a clear case to me for putting him in the top ten here. And just to drive home my point, he shot forty three percent basically from deep in the Finals against against the Heat, and so six point three assists per game there as well. And so when that kind of performance just results helps result in a title while playing over thirty seven minutes per game, mind you, at his age, which that was his age thirty seven season, I just can't overlook that and that that swung it for me compared to the other players that we're up for consideration, which we will obviously talk about at the end. Yeah, I totally understand having him in the top ten. I can't begrudge that. I can get a little annoyed that multiple people actually had him in second place on their ballots, which I assume, as you mentioned, was probably because they didn't limit to this decade when they were trying to come up with their rankings. Yeah, I mean, there were there were so many players in contention for these bottom of spots. It really felt like, I don't know, I don't know how you felt, but for me, it was like, there are six players who were definitely going to be on here, but then like seven through fifteen or sixteen were all pretty tightly squeezed together for me and really could have gone in a number of different directions, and kid just got left off, because I have trouble with how how you value such a small sample size that was the NBA Finals, even if that was like quite obviously the most seminal portion of this decade for Dallas. Totally makes sense to me. Who rolls in at number nine, at number nine, we had Dwight Powell who did not make the Fans top ten. He was actually down at number eleven. I had him at number eight, and you had him at number eight as well. Yeah, I'm not a big fan of White Powell's game that he's always been a shooter in fury but never in practice. However, I respect the verness. There we go. We have to get that in there. He's been, he's been, you know, for a second round pick. The career that he's carved out is absolutely spectacular. And he's sixthen minutes played during this decade for Dallas and he does do a lot of important things. He's been a solid rim runner for them, and the fact that he can play with other bigs in large part, not necessarily because he's shot the three well at different points of his career when you look at some of those end of season terrors that he's gone on, but also because he can defend essentially both front court spots and that's huge. It was huge early on with with Kristaps Porzingis. It allowed him to really act as the defensive center, and I think there's a ton of value in that. And so that plus the longevity, which is of course in jeopardy a little bit following his Achilles injury, I just think that he had to be in this list. I thought about putting him higher, but I really just couldn't do it again. And this is me saying I'm not really a huge fan of Dwight Powell's game. I think he's become a little bit overrated in the macro, but I do recognize that what he's done for this team and his career arc in general is pretty special. I actually am a bigger fan of Dwight Powell's game, and it's largely because of how good he is as a finisher on the interior without being solely a finisher on the interior. I don't really view him as someone like a Rudy Gobert or a DeAndre Jordan who's taking every single shot from within five feet. And that is in no way meant to denigrate that archetype, like, that's a very valuable offensive style of play, but he did a little bit more than that, and yet still every season of his career he's shot above seventy percent from inside three feet, including before the Achilles tear this year eighty one point three percent inside three feet, and like, the ability to be that consistent as as a finisher around the hoop is really valuable, especially when coupled with the ability to shoot free throws at an above seventy percent clip, because he doesn't have to be scared of drawing fouls when he's so consistently crashing towards the hoop. So I've always really enjoyed the way he plays because of that element, even if I also wish that he could have expanded his offensive arsenal a bit more. So I'm with you where it was like I was looking for I was looking for an excuse to move him up higher, but I ultimately couldn't do it because despite the fact that it feels like he's been around forever, like and the barness factor that is so obviously there to some extent, like, he is still only six ten minutes played for the decade, which actually surprised me a little bit. I thought he'd be higher. I actually didn't think he'd be higher. But it's weird to also say only six, because right right, that is pretty high. Now we both I had we mentioned my number nine because he was off the list. Correct, he did not make the composite cut. That is correct. And it's my ten who also did not make the cut, obviously, Devin fucking Harris. Look one, if you choose for yes one and if you want to look at it through this, if he helped them yet Jason Kidd because he was traded for Jason Kidd in two thousand and eight, but always a guy who was just solid, and I really viewed that second go round with the Mavericks like there were there were minutes where he played small forward for them this decade where they would go with those three guard lineups and just someone that you could really rely on to do that. And some of those lineups were actually super potent and weren't these defensive train wrecks. I'm not giving him full credit for that, but when you just look at his versatility, I think it was just one of those understated things. When we're looking at guards, you wouldn't name him as as a guard that would fall under that umbrella, and yet he was there. Like he gave you a lot of positional optionality, definitely at the one in two, and the Mavericks probably stretched beyond that by giving him these spurts at the three, and there was just something that you know when you factor in the theirness. Because he's seventh and minutes played for the Mavericks, it was tough for me to leave him off the list, I understand, because there are so many options why the fans would He's also I think, at least during these years, he's a better shooter in reputation than what the actual numbers say. He shot thirty three point three percent this decade with Dallas, but a good amount of that was the tal end of his career. Still just love what he brought to the table as sort of a game managing pass for a little bit. And like you've already said, a smooth scorer at his peak, which he wasn't at during this decade for Dallas, but even when he came back, someone who was plugging play, even despite these topsy turvy three point clips. And that might be the best way to encapsulate what he did because I feel like sometimes players are harder to fit in when they're not hitting their three ball, because that's the easiest way to be plugging play is stand behind the three point line, catch and shoot. That wasn't always the strength of his game, but yet he seemed to fit every single iteration of the Mavericks. So Harris did check in at thirteen in the fan vote, but he was kind of like the start of a new tier below the top twelve, So he, Wesley Matthews, and Darren Williams were all kind of tightly packed together. I'm not sure that third name is fair to include with the first two, but he was like pretty far removed from the top ten for the fans, which is interesting. I also did want to clarify, like you were talking about his second stint in Dallas, and I assume you're talking about twenty thirteen fourteen through midway through the twenty seventeen eighteen season. And I only asked because it's kind of weird that Harris has actually had three separate stints with the Mavericks. He began his career there, spent the first three and a half seasons of his career with the Mavericks. Came back in twenty thirteen and then ended up back in Dallas for the twenty eighteen nineteen season. Yeah, so I just consider that stint just like the same because he ended up He started twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen in Dallas, ended it in Denver. You're just gonna forget about the Devon the Denver. He just went back to Dallas. So I was like, did he ever really leave if it was consecutive seasons, But yeah, he left hit his body left, but his heart never left. And remember how everyone was excited when they weren't over the moon, but when the Nuggets picked up Paris, it was considered like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Attention Hardwood Knox listeners. With currently no NBA, NHL, or MLB, you might think that there's nothing to bet on. Well you'd be wrong. Our exclusive partner, bet online still has hundreds of events, games and props to wager on, from their online casino to poker and blackjack. They're bringing Vegas to you. Missing the NFL no problem. Bet online has live daily Madden NFL twenty simulations you can bet on. You can also bet on Survivor Big Brother, American Idol stock prices, even the Nathan's Hot Dog Eating Contest, all open twenty four hours a day and all online. Use promo code blue wire to join today and receive your new welcome bonus. That's promo code blue Wire all one word bet online, you're online wagering experts. Who comes in at number eight? No one does, because we have a tie at number seven. We'll talk about Vince Carter first because shout out to Vince, who didn't get to finish his NBA career quite like he wanted to with the season on hiatus, but still enjoyed a very memorable career. He was not in the top ten for the fans, he was number nine for me. He was actually up at number six for you, and I kind of regret not having him higher because like he was his time in Dallas, even if it wasn't as memorable as what we saw earlier in his career with New Jersey and with Toronto, it kind of like encapsulated his ability to completely reinvent his game as an effective role player who didn't need to be that star demanding touches at all times, but could still add a lot of values a veteran presence as a versatile defender as a spot up three point shooter, don't. I don't remember if it was in Dallas where he started taking more threes and twos, but it had to be close. And I think that that's just like a good summary of how he was willing to kind of have this amorphous identity that just bettered his team, which is not something you see from a lot of former stars, right. And that's part of the reason I put him so high is because that Dallas is really really where he mastered that transition. And we have the shot against the Spurs in the playoffs, of course, just one of the biggest playoff shots in Mavericks postseason history. And just he also he has to lead, He has to be the leader in the player that you thought was on the twenty eleven Mavericks but he actually wasn't. That's the biggest like brain fart that I hear when just talking to people in passing conversation about that is where they think that Vince Carter has a ring with that team, and it's like, Oh, he actually doesn't, which is sad because he would have been perfect for that team. Everything you said, though, I can really only echo it and the transition, So I don't want to see seamlessly but so effectively from someone who is operating as a star to like the super valuable role player who could hold his own on defense a little bit, who gave you, uh, you know, an off ball option from from beyond the arc during his time in Dallas. I just respect the hell out of it. And that shot, at least against the Spurs is going to be one of the ones that I remember just the most watching live. I'm sure maybe it'll fade a little bit as I see more just playoff games, but I still remember where I was, what I was doing when when he hit that look, and it really, you know, put san Antonio on tilt in that moment, So that was absolutely huge. And the fact that he wasn't on the twenty eleven team, he probably has the next best type of credential there when you look at that game winner against the Spurs. Yeah, no, I'm with you. I do like throwing some trivia questions at you during these podcasts because it's fun to watch you kind of squirm a little bit in front of the backdrop of ten thousand shoes back there. So if you could click away from Vince Carter's basketball reference page if you have it open, okay, not open. Can you name all of the teams he's played for throughout his career? No, I won't even come close. Let's see how many I could get though. The next the Raptors, the Mavericks, the Hawks, the Grizzlies. There are three more. My god, there are three more. I'm not even three more. I'm not even going to come close to this. Yeah, I'm gonna let me go on through them. I would have been one short. I think I'm three short. That hurts. He was never No, that's not him, glad. I didn't say that one. That would look bad. Well, I want to know what it was gonna be. Tell you off the air, Adam looking, Oh, okay, secrets from the listeners. Holy shit? Oh he was on the Kings. He was on the Kings. That's one that I definitely thought you'd get because that was like, they're they're gonna make the playoffs, but no they're not. And then they're going to call out writers who said that they were trying to make the playoffs. But that's a that's a story for another time. I'm not I already said the Raptors, right, I didn't like you already said the Raptors. That would be an embarrassing one to forget. Well, I think we did this with someone else, and I forgot like the most obvious team that they were on, So that tends to happen. No, it was. I know we did it with Joe Johnson, and I think you forgot Phoenix. Yes, that was a fairly obvious one. Was he on the Magic? He was on the Magic. There we go, so how many? And now we got the one left that I don't think I would have got, even though you just said it, because it's Phoenix. He spent, he spent. He's spent fifty one games in Phoenix during the twenty ten eleven season. He was he was traded there from Orlando. I believe, yeah, he uh he. Marshing Gortatt and Michael Petrice and a twenty eleven first round draft pick that became Nicolamiratich were traded for Earl Clark, Jason Richardson and Pito Turkulu. I don't remember Vince Carter on the Suns at all. You can either him at all. I'm not even sure that happens. I'm gonna need someone's gonna need to check that. Someone going to the tape. I'm not I'm not googling it now. I choose to believe that Vince Carter was never on the Suns. We can, we can go with that, but you know who else was never on the Suns? Because that's a great segue. That's a fantastic segue. There's still no we're not. I definitely need to verify this now because I'm second guessing my memory. But yeah, tied for seventh. We have the one and only Harrison Barnes, who I can confer has only played for the Golden State Warriors, Dallas Mavericks, and Sacramento Kings. Can we say that Harrison Barnes is like the King of free agency? Always hits it at the right time, always plays well enough or gets a stock high enough to where he's gonna get these big deals. Maybe I should have put him on my list just for that, as he's able to. I don't want to say swindle these teams because he's a really good player, probably borderline top one hundred in the NBA today. I will helpever say. I know Dallas is where he kind of branched out as a score and it was like, oh, he can do some stuff in isolation, but he was never really effective at getting the line or is a secondary playmaker. And his tenure there was just kind of I would call it borderline verging on, if not unequivocally forgettable. And that took me aback that he was not only on this list, but that he was so high. Yeah, so you did not have him in the top ten. I had him at number seven, The fans had him at number eight, and I kind of like, I just respected the ability to get paid. So I think he did play well enough to justify that. Granted for some bad teams, and he wasn't the superstar that they maybe hoped that he could be coming off of those like smaller role years with Golden State, but he was still a pretty potent three level scorer. His defense, I thought was always underrated because he could body up against bigger players. He was still switchable against smaller forwards. Like he was never a defensive superstar, but he was. He was a good, good to better than good defender against a lot of different matchup types, and I think that that versatility on that end really helped those teams a lot, even if they never really experienced much success. But then again, like during the two and a half years that he were there, he was there, like I don't think they were like terrible with him on the court, Yeah, but he never I felt like elevated then, And that's just not Look, if you can have someone that's just going to go out there and score like a number one guy, your offense is still not going to be highly rated if he is your number one guy, And so there's that trade off there. But he's he's a good player, and he does better teams or where he's not the number one guy. He does know how to play within those confines and there's definitely value in that. And he's someone who could defend both forward spots, maybe even a few twos at this point. So just a very good player. I just I don't know, it was maybe I'm not giving him enough credit because of what everyone viewed him as when he was going from Golden State to Dallas. Just wasn't someone I considered a top ten guy, even desp He's also fifth and minutes played during the decade, which again was a little bit surprising to me, just because he didn't spend that much time there. But like, if you look at the guys who are ahead of him, JJ Baret, Wesley Matthews, Shawn Marian and Durknoviski, We're going to talk about three of them in more details. He's being number three is wild. It is. It is, But and I was going to bring him up here because even though he was there for a lot, like he forgot how to shoot coming off those injuries in Dallas, and it was you know, that was even more disappointing than Harrison Barnes's tenure if you consider that disappointing, Like the Barness factor is big for me, the ability to get paid, the kind of understated defensive defensive prowess that he displayed. Maybe prowess is too strong word for Harrison Barnes, but you know what I mean, there were There were just a couple of factors that wanted me to have him at the head of my should they be included class which encompassed so many different players we need to catch all term for ability to get paid. We just let's keep it there with the nesses and go with like walletness or bank account walletness. I know it's walletness. First thought is always the best thought, also exact when it's not. Also, when Harrison Barnes is done in the NBA, he could make a killing narrating audio books. I'm just throwing it out there. He just has one of those. Always been a great interview. Like even even dating back to North Carolina, didn't he like take public speaking classes or something to make sure that he was really good in interviews? Yeah, he's he's he's super smart and you could tell, but not everyone. It's a Black Falcon brand. Wasn't that what it was? Didn't he like try to brand himself while he was still in college? Am I remembering that? Right? I have no idea. Yeah, I did not pay attention to college basketball except for crash courses. But right before the draft, you guys can come here for your draft analysis this year. By the way, it is, it is it was a Black Falcon back as a freshman at UNC, and he was already like so polished and he was he was trying really hard to create the brand back then. All right, So we just need to find the book that he can do, an audiobook that he could do. It should be long, though, because he just think you should write it. You should write it specifically for him on Wildness narrated by Harrison Barnes, it's a great idea. Who came in at number six? At number six? For me, this was kind of the step up to like the guys who I didn't think there was any doubt that they were going to appear fairly high in these rankings. And it's Jason Terry, who I had at exactly six. The fans had him up at number four, you had him down at number seven. I think the airplane celebrations after the three pointers were so memorable, especially on that twenty ten eleven title winning team. But even if we're not counting the first five years of his time in Dallas and only looking at the two seasons that count, like he was so incredibly valuable as a floor spacer, as an energy guy, as a secondary scoring option. I just I didn't think there was any doubt that he belonged here. No, there's no doubt to me. It's just when you got to this point looking at where I put him. The not that the top seven could have gone on any order, but for me probably four, five, six and seven. I think you could have ordered anyway that you wanted to, and he's just looking at you know, like he said, only two of his season's fall under this purview. He definitely he's during these two seasons. If I had a guess, do you know what his numbers were for these two seasons. Yeah, all right, Well, if you would have given me an over under Diddy average fifteen points per game, I probably would have taken the under. It was, of course the over because it's it's Jason Freak and Terry so shot the three well well for them, like you said, valuable floor spacer. The celebrations loved his personality. Again, I think it was having someone like him in that locker room that that two eleven Mavericks team was just so special and he was a mammoth part of that equation. All right, So, so my my hot take of the podcast, I think Jason Terry is one of the most underrated scorers in NBA history who never averaged twenty points a game. I mean, once you throw in that car one of the best, one of the best scorers who didn't score twenty points per game, that's I feel like, just because you threw in the under twenty points for game qualified or that's not really a hot take. You need to call m one of the most underrated scores in the NBA history period for that to be even sore of spicy. All right, I'll go with that then, I mean, I'm with it. I would, I would probably agree. It's also kind of amazing. I mean, when you spend so much time in the sort of the meat of your career like he wasn't He was a starter in like the first half of his career. Then he kind of transition into the sixth man role. It was probably a little bit harder for him to crack that, but nineteen point six points per game with thousand in two thousand and eight, two thousand and nine, and just a guy who always shot the three ball, not just relatively well, but but really well. Had a few down seasons, but his numbers were by and large, particularly compared to the years when you're looking at the leave at Lee average, were superb. And he's one of the best headband rockers in NBA history. I think that's important too. I think it matters like some people were just born to wear a headband and he was one of them. That's the kind of analysis, that's the pseudo intellectual analysis that's earning US one star reviews. Do you know what he shot in the twenty eleven flightoffs, I don't, but it's probably high. I'm gonna go with like forty two, forty four percent, forty four point two percent from three hit almost fifty percent of his twos. And if you saw the twos, if anyone remembers the twos that Jason Terror used to take, it's actually that's a pretty good clip. And he ever seventy point five points per game, just another guy where I was like, oh, that's his age thirty three season and he's averaging thirty minutes per game, and it really just doesn't even It really just doesn't even matter. I hope we never forget about how fun that twenty ten eleven Dallas Mavericks team was because it was like it was so clearly the Dirk Show, but they had so many fun veterans who just really played great basketball in their roles. It was just it was one of those examples of a team like fully embracing its identity and its roles from top to bottom, and obviously that pays off, like it was very spursy in I don't think it will ever get lost to history just because of the team that they write down. But I don't mean the results so much as the aesthetic pleasure of watching that team. Yeah, that's fair. That will probably get lost because it always does. Who do we have coming in at number five? Speaking of the esthetic pleasure of watching someone, we have JJ Barea at number five. He was number six for the fans. I actually had him up at number three and you had him at number five. So tell me why I'm wrong. I mean, look, the theirness factor is through the roof. I don't know. I guess how important, Like how good is J. J. Berrera like he had, Like look at the seasons he's had during this decade, like still really good and a shot the three ball well for them, a bunch of studying presence when you're looking at backup point guards. But aside from the theairness, I want to know what distinguishes him for you from the players that you put him in front of. We're talking guys like Sean Mary and Tyson Chandler, right, It's it's largely the theirness. And I refuse to acknowledge that his three year in Minnesota Timberwolves tenure happened. He's always played for the Mavericks. He spent his entire career there in my head. But it's the it's the ability to not do more was was big for me. Like it's which we talk about that twenty We need to cut in that Paul rud clip from Forgetting Sarah Marshall d less Less. Yeah, might as well have been talking about J. J. Barriet, who who listened because it was like, you know, when his three point shot wasn't falling, he didn't force the issue, when he wasn't finishing around the rim, he didn't force the issue. But just like that guy who who played hard, who defended as best as he could given the limitations of his five ten frame, and was just he was not just there, but he was there in the right ways. So even if that didn't necessarily manifest in box score numbers, even if he never scored more than what like ten eleven point six points per game, is his career high. So also high with the Mavericks. I thought he scored more than Minnesota, But again we're not acknowledging that part of his career. You know, it was it was just that that knack for avoiding mistakes and doing the right things for so long and I think he his personality and the competitiveness I think really permeated through that roster throughout the time he was there. And like, as hard as it is to say, a guy who wasn't a starter, who wasn't a star kind of lent his identity to the team, I think he largely did that during both their more competitive seasons and the ones where they struggled but still played hard and overachieved under Rick Carlisle's tutelage. Maybe I'm under selling him too because they brought him back and have kept him basically for the past two seasons. I know he's dealing with the Achilles injury now, but where you didn't necessarily need him, And the other thing I'll say is you look up like most of the bench units he headlined during his separate stays with Dallas, and they always just destroyed people and it didn't really matter who was around him. So maybe I'm under selling him in that regard. But I think everything you said is justified. But as you mentioned at the top of this podcast, figuring out really the meat and potatoes on this list, not just the lower guys for me, but yeah, there might have been a consensus six to put on here, but ordering like four of those six was extremely difficult. This was the toughest by far, so far, Yeah, so far, Yeah, I think without a doubt for me. Speaking of though, let's get tougher. Who did you have at number four? So number four, the composite rankings have Sean Mariam, who was number five for me, number five for the fans, and number three for you. And while we're rewriting history and forgetting about JJ Burre's tenure with the Minnesota Timberwolves, we're also going to make Sewan mary In a fucking Hall of Famer because he absolutely deserves that. And it's one of my biggest gripes with like anything related to basketball, that he's not because he is a generational defender. He was an immensely valuable offensive player during his prime. And even if he wasn't in his crime with those Dallas teams, like he was so damn good throughout throughout his brief time, they're just filling a smaller scoring role, just wreaking havoc everywhere on defense, even though his three point shot like completely abandoned him in Dallas, like he was still just so valuable. Yeah, there's Sean mary needs again into all of fame. Him and Chris Webber. Those are my probably two biggest gripes at the moment in regard to absence of Hall of Fame. I'm actually surprised he wasn't higher, obviously because I had him at three. But I'm just wondering what the argument is for him not to be, Like, I thought, the top three were pretty obvious. I thought I really struggled, honestly with two through with two through five, and that was that was reflected to some extent in the fan vote as well, where three through five were all basically interchangeable with the scores that they generated, and then the top two were very much a consensus. But yeah, I think I think there's a great case to be made for for any of these guys to be number three. Yeah. I mean, dude, Sean Marry just defended the toughest Wings while he was in Dallas, absolutely monstrous for them during that twenty eleven title run. I stand Shawn Marion and his Hall of Fame case. It would have been imagined he would have probably been in the Hall of Fame already if he shot better from three. I feel like some people were maybe had a better jump shot for him. I feel like that I was gonna say, I think that that really helped held him held him back a little bit too so. But like you said, one of just the best defenders in recent NBA history, And when you look at the assignments that he had a cover just and he was like, he gave you optionality on defense that now you expect your defensive anchors to have on the perimeter. But he did it really before it was a necessity or even novel at that point. And I don't know if that's part of why he's so underrated, is he wasn't as appreciated as he should have been in real time. Perhaps, But I don't think I can add anything beyond what I said to what you already said. And I think what I just said is just circling a bunch of what you just said. Yeah, I mean, I don't think Shawn Marion was always the primary defender on Lebron James during those twenty eleven NBA Finals, But Lebron James does not end up standing in the corner of Shawan Marrion is not on that team, right, And he did cover Lebron James for like a like a good chunk of possessions too, of memory serves me correctly. Yeah, So moving on from one great defender to another, we have Tyson Chandler at number three. He was number three for the fans. He was number four for both of us. You know, he's it's another guy. Like I feel like we're saying the same thing about all of these Mavericks who are on that twenty ten eleven team. But like he wasn't what he was at his peak, which probably came in New Orleans for Tyson Chandler, but like he accepted his role and he just flat out thrived in it. The thereness factor is not there for him. He only played that twenty ten eleven season before going to New York. He came back for the twenty fourteen fifteen season, where he averaged another double double. He was again a pretty valuable big man on the interior before he has kind of gotten phased out in recent years as the game has stylistically evolved, But what he did during those two seasons was so valuable that again, like it's tough to balance the airness factor with the maximizing of you of your role factor. But I think there's a legitimate case for him in any of these two through six spots. Yeah, And I grappled with the lack of a sample size the yo should I move him while where as the top five maybe, But there are three players on that Mavericks team that I think you could say they don't win a title without, and he's one of them. Just the way being a defensive quarterback, what he could really do for them, and he brought that to New York when he went there in twenty eleven, just absolutely huge. And you talk about finishing just such a reliable during that season in Dallas specifically, just such a reliable guy to have setting screens and rolling towards the basket, and really just the commitment he showed to playing hard on every possession is just it's borderline peerless. And so because that season ends in a title, it definitely buttresses his case in ways that it wouldn't otherwise had as if that team had lost in the conference finals or just been the footnote to the Miami Heats title run that they were supposed to be. Still, everything he did for that team, everything he represented for that team, the fact that they basically brought him back, I feel like because they knew that they fucked up and never should have let him leave or just let that team dissolve in the first place. That serves a purpose too. You know, if we're gonna look at Harrison Barnes's walletness, let's look at let's look at regret and the level of regret that he basically invited from the Mavericks franchise forever letting him walk away. Because it's so tough to find I would say, yeah, you know what, particularly now and even maybe then, you can find rim runners. But what he did intellectually, I'll say on defense, just being the quarterback of everything for them is invaluable and they're it's indescribable really, and it really manifested in that postseason push and was kind of a huge essence of just what that Mavericks team was. When you think of that Mavericks team, you almost think not you wouldn't think of Tyson Channel before Dirk Nivitski, but he might be the second player you think of, just because of the defensive identity that they established and the overall identity that they had where it was this team that kept pushing, kept playing hard, was just gritty and Ayson Chandler just embodies that ethos more so than anyone else on that roster, right, And they won fifty seven games in the finals with him there in twenty ten eleven. Then they won thirty six games in the lockout shortened season forty one and twenty twelve, thirteen, forty nine, and twenty thirteen fourteen. Then he comes back and they win fifty games again. And he actually led that fifty win team and win shares, which is an interesting footnote as well. But what could they have done during that three season stretch if he had stayed there instead of going to New York. I mean, you still got prime durk Navisky, you still got Vince Carter there as a role player, You still got JJ Barea there as a role player because he never went to Minnesota. You know that team still had the pieces. And if and if you have that defensive quarterback, that rim protector, that rim runner who's so immensely valuable in his role, Like, are we talking about like more of a dynastic team than we saw. Probably, And as you mentioned with the win shares, he's third in the decade in win shares for the Mavericks. But thirteenth in minutes, and I know that those catch offs can really favor bigs, but that's still pretty impressive. Resolutely, number two, tell me why it's Tell me why it's I can't even think of a random name right now. I'm slack, and I was gonna say, tell me why it's Delan Right, but that felt mean because I really like Delan Right. Delan Right actually did not get a single vote, which surprised me. We've seen far worse players get votes. But yeah, no, Number two. We have Luca don Chich, which is a fascinating one because he's only played one hundred and twenty six games for Dallas. He's fourteenth and minutes played, so from the volume standpoint, from the birness standpoint, he's obviously not there, especially on a franchise that has had so many valuable players. But you know, I had him at two, You had him at two, and the fans had him at two, and it's largely because of the level that he's already reached. I mean, we're talking about a twenty one year old player who I think we can say, without a hint of joking, that there's a legitimate chance that Durknivitzky isn't always going to be the best player in this franchise's history. Like he's on that kind of trajectory in his sophomore season. That's probably the strongest case to make for anyone who thinks that maybe too is a little bit too high for him right now, is that he's on the trajectory to be perhaps the best franchise player in Maverick's history. And I mean, we have to clarify that, like a lot has to go right for that to happen. So saying that he's on the trajectory, like Zion Williamson is on the trajectory to be one of the all time greatest players, but he's only played twenty games, Like a lot has to go right for that to happen. It's just that there's a chance, right and the fact that he's been able to sustain Basically, I know he trailed off towards the end of his rookie season, but you know, rookie walls are a real thing, and Dallas blew up its team that year towards the end of the season. So just everything, the triple doubles, the types of shots that he's taking, the way that he Ben's defenses. He's really improved his touch and feel inside the arc, has a legitimate floater. Just Reek's absolute havoc is probably one of the NBA's is seven best passers. Too generous? Is that not high? I think that's fair just looking at the types of dimes that he's to throw. Easily one of my favorite players to watch in the league right now. And like you said, a lot has to go right if he's going to overtake Dirk Naviski. But the fact that they have someone who could, if everything goes right, being the running to overtake Dirk Naviski before Dirk Naviski even technically left is just absolutely mind melting. Yeah. Absolutely, And I think the other thing here is from from a purely intangible standpoint, Like I think there's there's something to the idea that a player can like can operate with a level of joy on the basketball court that's just infectious, and I think we see it a lot of times from role players like Kent Baysmore comes to mind, just as a guy who like so obviously loves playing basketball and is happy first teammates that it helps, but we also see it occasionally from superstars, and I think when that happens, it really matters a lot. And like maybe maybe the best example is pre unhappiness Orlando Magic era Dwight Howard, where like he was just he was so obviously a fan favorite, he's so obviously just loved being on the basketball court. He was always smiling. He was reveling in the good plays that he made, not in a self serving way, but in more of a like an ultruistic like this is good for my team way. And I think we see that a lot from Luca where when he finishes an allue or makes the allue pass, like you see the smile and you see how happy he is for his teammates and how happy his teammates are for him. And I think it's I think it's really important. And it's not something that shows up in the box score. It's not something that shows up in advanced stats or catchall metrics. But it matters, the one thing I'll say, and I know better, so I overlook it when we're talking about him in the context of the NBA. He's probably been a top five player this season twenty nineteen, twenty twenty. It's there's still something just weird about talking about how incredible and valuable his shot is when he is only hitting thirty two point two percent of his threes for his career, there's still something just off about it because of the level of difficulty on them and the volume and how it opens up the floor for everybody else and even himself and he can leverage his game off the dribble. Now I totally get it, there's just still something weird about it. I think it's I think it's similar to like the pre draft scouting reports where when he was playing in EuroLeague play, like he was taking such difficult shots, he was facing so many double teams, he was taking so many end of shot clock heaves that his numbers were lower than the talent indicated. And I feel like it's similar here, where it just he's so obviously the fulcrumb of that entire offensive system that the degree of difficulty ramps up in the numbers decline. But we know it's It's like Devin Booker and Phoenix, right, And I think that's an example we use a lot of where the system is not necessarily conducive to posting good surface level numbers, but as soon as you watch him play like, it's very obvious why that's the case and why that shouldn't be held as a knock against him. Yeah, I totally agree with everything you said there. I believe he entered a drum roll for number one because everyone's dying to know who it is. Yeah, we can do that Chandler Parsons roll. I was I was shocked. I was really surprised the Chandler Parsons, I mean, Dirk Navitski ended up at number one and it was unanimous. You know, I had Chandler Parsons number one. You had Chandler Parsons number one. The fans at Chandler Parsons number one. Sorry, I think I'm getting him and Dirk confused because they play really similar games, right. Yeah, basically they both partied with Mark Cuban at some point, so that's a pretty safe assumption. I feel like most Dallas Mavericks players at party with Mark Cuban, Dirk Naviski, you could, you could talk about the game. Just as far as Superstar personalities go. Seems like an actual dude with depth that you would like to hang out with. Where some of the personas that are adopted by NBA players or anyone in the public eye can feel forced and inauthentic. His felt real and seems like someone you would just want to go have a beer with if if I drank beer, which which I don't. And just the story about him, just the easygoing personality where he never seemed to take himself too seriously. I know a lot of that really happened after the twenty eleven title, but that's still that's still something you look at, just the promo videos he cut for the Mavericks. I still love the game day playoff, the hump Day commercials, still one of the best things ever. Even stories about like retirement, Derk just eating all the ice cream just absolutely yeah, just absolutely incredible. And then to know that he spent his entire career at this team, even though that's not necessarily decade related, but also the fact that he adjusted during towards the back end of his prime, where he more if you look at it, more and more of his shots just came from these stands still situations or are off of assists, and that's what enabled him to be such an effective player. Before it was just he got too old and the injuries just really built up for him I respect that too. It's like it's sort of the Vince Carter progression where I don't know that you would ever called Dirk a full on role player, mostly because he was too important to this franchise, but the fact that he was able to adjust his game to account for all the different types of players Dallas put around him, all the different types of iterations of teams he was on the ball, dominant players that played alongside him toward again, mostly towards the back end of his primes. It's a really big deal. And that's not, I feel like something that we don't even talk about enough. It's Oh, it's the shooting, it's the how he was sort of this trailblazer for an archetype of offensive player, the bigs who can shoot and really do stuff off the dribble. But he also was able to stay effective really late into his career because he was willing to make these stylistic adjustments. Maybe I'd fall short of calling them overhauls. But watching old Dark Nivitski was fun too, and it was definitely in the context of this conversation that that's absolutely important. Yeah, I mean, he was a role player. It's just that his role was winning and being an offensive machine, and he did that in a variety of ways throughout his career. And I like that we're just dancing around his resume because we really need to like justify him at number one, because it's such like a known quantity at this point, right right, I mean, if you have anybody other than Dirk and you're as your number one player of the Mavericks for the last decade, then like, thank you for admitting that you're brand new to basketball. I appreciate the honesty, but yeah, I mean, he's he's so obviously number one. I and to me, like, you know, it's it's obvious to say, but I'm always going to associate him with with what I've always called the Flamingo fade away, that one legged kickback lean back jumper. I think it's one of the five deadliest signature moves that we've seen in NBA history. You know, it was it was just unstoppable, and he used it from all over the court throughout his career. No one ever figured out how to defend it well, and it is it deserves to be so strongly associated with him, even though so many different things could be Listen if they were ever changed the logo from Jerry West that Dirk shot be one of the nominations. I'm with you. We'll we'll call Adam Silver after this. Yeah, good idea, the one. There's nothing else going on right now, so he'll he'll definitely be willing to listen to us. The one thing I will say. And I know this is largely a function of how they played and who he was playing with, but one of my favorite statistical quirks of his age thirty eight, Durk Navisky posted the highest defensive rebounding rate of his career, twenty eight point three. He had never had any defensive rebounding rate higher than twenty five during his prime. He actually did have twenty five point two the following season, which is the second highest of his career. So age thirty nine, Dirt Navski, I just find again. I know it's a function of how they played, and we can get into I'm gonna be a little cynical here. I think that it's also him putting on a little weight and not being as mobile and just spending all of his time around the basket because they didn't want to switch him to the perimeter. Well, he's also playing during those years is when he's playing more center right too. So he's just going to be and it's not to take anything away from him like you just did. You called were fat, out of shape and the ball just gravitated towards him as not That's exactly what I said. I'm impressed that you edited that into the podcast. Uh, Derek was one that was obvious. Who were some of the honorable mentions that that got votes? All right, So we had a lot of players who were appearing on ballots at some point. We actually the two entries from the fans in their top ten that did not make the composite rankings. Out the fans had Christops Perzingis at number nine. I'm not sure there's much of an argument there, as you know, even even though he was clearly reverting to an impressive level post ACL recovery before the season was suspended, like he's only spent a handful of games in a Maverick's uniform. Number ten. We had Monte Ellis a lot of a lot of points, maybe some empty points. Did you have a problem with either of those being in the top ten or in the conversation Christops, I would have it just like he's been king down all year. It just didn't make sense to me. I get it because of what he represents his an acquisition, I suppose, but nah, and Mantels takes me a little bit off guard. But at the same time, like you said, he scored, and it does seem that Mavericks fans, or at least a huge subsection of them, I really loved Monte Ellis and so just a kind of persona that he had where it felt like he played through a bunch of injuries there and that they respected it. So I could, you know if you want to put him in the top ten, particularly because he had larger samples than perhaps some of other of these guys on the list, although I'm looking at the minutes play now to see where he ends up. Yeah, he's nights, so he was higher than Vince Carter, Terry Chandler, So you know that that can factor into it as well. Jason Kidd too, So I wouldn't have an issue with that. The Christops one is just like no for me. Yeah, I agree with you, so stop me as we can move beyond the top ten for the fans. If there's anyone you want to talk about but at eleven we had Dwight Powell. At twelve, we had the tragically undersold Vince Carter. At thirteen, we had the kind of less tragically undersold but still undersold Devin Harris. At fourteen, we had Wesley Matthews. At fifteen, we had Darren Williams. At sixteen, that high they actually signed Darren Williams in free agency, and then even that he didn't that Darren Williams wasn't even really that good after free agency. Well, and anyone Dallas signs and free agency, you know that they were automatically a third target because they've been so bad at getting their first targets throughout this decade. Hashtag White Howard, hashtag DeAndre Jordan. They did eventually bag DeAndre Jordan, though, congratulations to death and and he got he did get a vocal. We'll get to that in a bit. At sixteen, we had Brandon Wright, who I thought was deserving a little more love. At seventeen, we had Moxie Kliba, who I thought was deserving of a lot more love. But I'm not surprised that he's underrated here because he's underrated everywhere. Are you on board with that that Kliba is underrated. Yeah, I would say that. And did you did you call him MOXI? Is that actually how to pronounce it? I thought, I said MAXI, maybe I'm just miss hearing it. What he's clearly underrated, probably most so is a defender by the way we carry on. And speaking of underrated defense first players, he was tied with Dorian Finney Smith, who I thought deserved a little bit of consideration for a top ten spot, but not enough to really come close to getting one. Tied at nineteen we had Seth Curry, DeShawn Stephenson, and Dennis Smith Jr. Which Yeah, much more deserving of the votes than than DSJ I think. Yeah. At twenty second we had a tie between Tim Hardaway Junior, Karan Butler, and Chandler Parsons. The only add thing I'll add in there, as the Marrow juniors had a hell of a season, does not belong in this conversation at all. Tied at twenty fifth with one last place vote a piece, we had six different players. We had Zaza Pachulia. I'm always down for Zazi getting votes. Jose called he own Rodrigue Beaubois, who it has there. I feel like within the last decade he's got to be one of the the people that we were most excited about who just totally never panned out. Wasn't it like year after a year, it was like, Yep, this is going to be the year. He's looking good in preseason, He's going to be a big contributor. He looks so athletic, and then just injuries or ineffectiveness. Yeah, him, and like, wasn't around the same time Rudy Fernandez too, Yeah, probably so, but at least Rudy Fernandez was good internationally fair enough. Also tied for twenty fifth, we have Boban Marianovich. I'm a little surprised you didn't get more votes just as a fan favorite. And then Jalen Brunson and DeAndre Jordan. Jalen Brunson plays his ass off, So I respect that Jalen Brunson inclusion DeAndre Jordanson GTFO from this list. That's all I have to say. Yeah, it doesn't belong here, but shout out to whoever included him. Well, that doesn't for us. This was It was tough, but this was I thought this was a fun conversation to have. Adam thank you for rolling through this right back at you. As always, we will be back next time. I'm with the Denver Nuggets are up next, so that's going to be an exciting one. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe to Hardwood Knocks on iTunes and wherever else you're getting your podcast. Follow Adam on Twitter at promo zero nine. That will do it for us until next time. No, I'll leave you with the shout out to the One the Only Way for the Dallas Mavericks, OJ Mayo, Sugar Ray, Leonard, Roberto Duran, Marvelous, Marvin Hagler, and Thomas Hearns. Legends whose four way rivalry define one of the greatest errors in boxing history. Relive their decade of dominance in the new Showtime Sports documentary The Kings, a four parts series premiering Sunday, June sixth, only on Showtime