WEBVTT

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Well, whiskey coming thing, my
pain the moneys all right, oh whiskey,

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don't you let me? From Powerline
blog dot com and produced by Ricochet

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dot Com, this is the three
Whiskey Happy Hour with your bartenders Steve Hayward,

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John You and power Lines International Woman
of Mystery Lucretia. Thank gotta giving

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let that whiskey bloon when you're feel
in low down and low. Hello everybody,

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and welcome to the three Whiskey Happy
Hour. We're so excited to be

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here with you tonight. You have
no idea. In fact, we're gonna

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we're so excited. We're gonna start
by telling John that as good as he

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thought McDonald's could be, it's going
to get better. They are going to

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make their burgers juicier, ruined.
Yes, they're going They're not going to

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sacrifice let's see. Safety. That's
an important one, I guess, but

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also speed because five Guys has its
own entirely new method for cooking their burgers

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and making them juicy and exciting and
quality and still doing it quickly. So

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McDonald's is going to follow suit,
and they are going to instead of cooking

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eight patties at one time on their
auto cooker thinger, they're going to cook

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six and somehow this is going to
make burgers more juicy. You know,

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we have Culver's here, John,
Sometimes someday you have to come visit me.

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Culvers. It's a Midwest company.
It's a Midwest company. There they

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have. They're famous for three things. One is there they're butter burgers.

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So they cook one hundred percent real
beef on a grill in butter. Okay,

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it's not cheating, it's delicious.
It's anything of butter, and it's

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going to be yes, exactly,
why doesn't everybody instead of cooking it in

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some sort of nasty fake uh polly
whatever oil No butter burgers. Then the

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second thing is they make it's soft
or ice cream, but it's not.

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It's custard. It's a real custard, real custard, frozen custard. It's

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just the problem is the reason I
can't go there is I don't want to

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go there unless I'm gonna get custard, and you know that's not really good

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for the waistline. And then the
third thing is fried cheese curds. Well,

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you know, Lucretia, having seen
you eat your way through Milan.

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I'm surprised to hear that you worry
about the fat. Not only that,

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but that I don't weigh four hundred
pounds. Yeah, no, no,

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she's a freak of nature. John, I don't get it. I think

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that the effort to improve McDonald's is
what's great about America. We're never satisfied

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when I'm just disappointed in their their
options. They're gonna rehydrate their onions sooner.

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They're going to put their pickles in
there. Let us into smaller containers

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so they're fresher when they're put on
the burgers. They're gonna go ahead.

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I actually I went to McDonald's for
lunch today and missed my train because I

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thought that the McDonald's and Union station
to get a McRib because they haven't seen

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one in California. So I saw
to Washington got in line to get one.

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Of course, it takes so long
to make the perfection as the McRib

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that I actually missed my train.
I had to take this the next one

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later. Later, I will send
you a photo of twenty minutes. They

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had another game. It was worth
it. What I want to know is

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how is it that five guys has
become the standard of excellence in the Hamburger

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world. And why aren't they being
accused like Chick fil A? I mean,

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there aren't they sexist? It's five
guys. It's not five people.

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It's not five guys in gals,
it's five guys. How is there no

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campaign against the obvious sexism of five
guys going on? All the truth?

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John, people understand guys are better
at this than girls are. Girls are

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better at a lot of baking and
cooking, but not when it comes to

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cooking burgers. Guys know what they're
doing. I can be sexist if I

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want to about it. Yeah,
absolutely, No listeners are tuned in hoping,

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hoping for whiskey reviews, and serious
news are getting you know burgers.

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I do have to say, it
is a strange news today, you know.

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I thought when they picked up the
Wall Street Journal this morning, I

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thought that the feel good headline of
the day was the first one Israel plans

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to kill hamas leaders around the world
after war. But Dan, you scroll

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down on the page and there was
no more dry burgers. McDonald's overhauls its

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biggest item. I thought, Man, it's a two per day for good

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news indlines. We'll see how that
all works out. You have to let

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us know. I think I told
you John that I don't actually go to

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McDonald's very often. Nothing against it. I'm just not a fast food eater,

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Okay. But I stopped on the
way to from my house to Phoenix.

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Couple three hour drivers so one time, and I hadn't eaten all day,

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and I stopped and I got a
double quarter pounder with cheese, and

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it was the best hamburger I've ever
had in my life. And it's never

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been duplicated, but it was wonderful
that time. Yeah, no, I've

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actually started. I just skipped the
fries. But do we get the double

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quarter pound of cheese a lot these
days? Well you should know. Let's

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see a little update and gossip for
you. But you, Lucretia, get

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credit for me having a conversation this
week with Christopher Scalia, the late Chief

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Justices Son. There's about the tweet
you forwarded to me. I should mention

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to you and the listeners that you
know hear me our Friday night. I'm

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back in California, Johnson, Philadelphia. You're at your undisclosed location in Arizona.

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Last night, John and I were
dining together in Georgetown, you know,

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one of those different hata. Will
you guys go places without me?

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We were fulfilling our best right wing
conspiracy obligations, right plotting and scheming for

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organizations which will be unnamed and never
known, never know. I hope you

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did good work, though, promise
you did. Oh we did. But

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uh, it was fun because I
don't I don't know if you saw this,

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John, and I think you don't
look on Twitter, but there's this

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wonderful Twitter exchange. In other day
there's left wing alone named Eric Segal,

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and he had this tweet and said, to believe originalism is a good thing,

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you must think these people are wrong. Irwin Chemerinsky, Adrian vermu Lead,

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Richard Fallon, Dick Posner, Eric
Posner, Pam Carter, and he

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goes on and mentioned an under a
bunch of names. So Christopher Scalia tweeted

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back, your terms are acceptable,
and the seagull guy who's so utterly humorous,

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just went off on a rant and
he just disgraced himself. And so

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uh, I brought it up with
Christmas. We were chatting at AEI and

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had a good long conversation with him
about it. That was great fun did

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you was a big man that who
that was that? I know his brother?

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I say, well, I didn't
want to one of the brothers because

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there's like nine of them. Yeah, there's a bunch of them, one

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of them stationed here. That's how
Chris. Chris is a wonderful guy.

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I just for people who don't know
him. He is not a lawyer.

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He is an English who was an
English professor and then came over to run

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academic programs at AI and now is
a full time scholar. But he is

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an expert a Shakespeare and is from
that perspective a big believer in originalism.

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Yeah, oh of course. Occasional
listener of this show, so be careful

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about your school. A remark on
the creation, I say, nice thing

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that I'm actually what I want to
ask really quickly. This is so off

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what we said we were going to
talk about. But I had the occasion,

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as deaned, to have to look
up and find Shakespeare's scholars to be

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on a tenure review committee across the
country. But the particular professor who was

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up for tenure was a Shakespeare scholar
with in the modern technological world, in

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other words, technology and Shakespeare.
I don't even know what the hell that

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means. It's so stupid. But
anyway, that but the point is that

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I would say that ninety nine percent
of the Shakespeare scholars that I found were

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pathetic and awful, and I feel
sorry for him to have to be in

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that field because originalism has nothing to
do with the way most modern English researchers

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scare quotes approach Shakespeare. It's all, of course critical race theory, and

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you know Shakespeare's I can't even say
it. This is a family show.

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I'll I'll just leave it at that. But tell him if you see him

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that I'm very proud of him for
his originalist approach to Shakespeare. Yeah.

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Oh, I don't know if some
actually applies originalism to Shakespeare. But he

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as a literary you know, a
person who writes about literature and meaning of

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words. He thinks originalism is the
proper way to interpret the Constitution. Oh

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I see, Yeah, yeah,
I would imagine. And there's crossover,

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John, I would imagine, there
really is. There's so much to be

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learned from an originalist approach to Shakespeare. Believe it or not. I have

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some no expertise, but at least
some times spent studying that with some really

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smart people. And yes, you
can learn a lot from studying Shakespeare from

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an originalist point of view, the
meaning of words and how they're were together

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and so on. Well, I
wasn't going to do this, but it's

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worth an under thirty seconds at least. Yeah, I have soh my goodness,

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I provoked. I crossed a big
fight once ten years ago at the

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University of Colorado by talking about how
things dropping shakeheay, showing up, by

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showing up right, but also by
pointing out all the English departments that were

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dropping Shakespeare as requirement, and I
think weren't doing that. They were reading

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it in these tandentiest modernist ways,
you know, Shakespeare and feminist theory and

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this queer theory in Shakespeare and all
that kind of backward. And I've read

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a few of these articles and I
posted a couple of excerpts. I'm just

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awful, turgid, you know,
jargon laden pro and then I dropped in

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and here's where Lucretia has the experience
in this too. So you know,

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it's an interesting thing if you go
to political science departments around the country where

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there's some conservatives, I don't mean
Hellsdale I mean Boston College, Virginia,

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Notre Dame, University of Dallas.
I ticked off several Claremont. You will

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find in the political science department usually
a class on Shakespeare and politics, and

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the classes are always hugely popular.
And what does it say that political scientists

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of a certain bent find Shakespeare relevant
for understanding political life at any time in

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all time? And all you people
in English can do is try and overlay

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the latest fad on him and write
incoherently about him. And boy, people

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don't like to hear that, you
know. Actually I love the Shakespeare's politics

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classes, right, I think Shakespeare
in the Law is a popular class.

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And actually lawyers in a lot of
cities what they like to do in these

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different societies is reenact to the trials
from Sakespeare. Wow, there did that.

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But I did actually have a community
M and R. I guess,

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I don't know what you call it, some sort of community thing with a

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judge on Shakespeare's law, and we
looked up measure for measure and the Merchant

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of Venice. It was fun.
We go, yeah, yeah, A

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lot to be said about that that
we won't say tonight because we have so

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much to cover. We made a
promise that we're probably not keeping to our

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loyal listeners, that we would re
enact the cage match from last week between

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John and me. We might get
to one aspect of the cage match.

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I'm hoping, maybe the whole question
about Ukraine and realism versus Neo Khans and

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et cetera. We'll see, we'll
see how it goes, and next week

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we'll take up January sixth. I
got a lot of comments, and so

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did you, John. Quite frankly, people took sides, which is always

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fun between you and me, and
so we owe them that. But whether

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we'll get to it with all the
news we have this week to I'm hoping

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to cure you didn't. I'm sorry, I rapt. I'm hoping you didn't

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see the commenter on Ricochet who said
why is Lucretia repeating Russian propaganda? And

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I thought, oh, dude,
I didn't see that because I hadn't gotten

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back to it. Yeah, but
on Powerline I got called a pro putin

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and she accused me of oh yeah, because I called the Ukrainians Nazis,

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I was pro putin. And so
anyway, okay, let's hold it off

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till later we got that be Okay, you brought it up, not me.

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I know, I know I'm bad. I don't know exactly the order

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the best order for this, Maybe
John, we start with sandradale'connor, because

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Steve says he has a lot to
say about Sandradal O'Connor. I'm just going

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to say this and then I'm going
to be quiet about it. I told

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Steve I don't really care about Sandradale
O'Connor. She was kind of a mediocre

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at best jurist. There were lots
and lots and lots and lots of mediocre

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jurists responsible for a lot of stupid
opinions on the Supreme Court over the last

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two hundred x number of years.
Why is she famous because she was the

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first woman on the Supreme Court?
How sexist and stupid can you be?

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Who cares that she was a woman. I just went, yeah, well,

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I want to bait Lucretia and just
say that our great teacher that we

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revered, Leondard Levy, really liked
Sandrade O'Connor liked her. Yeah. It

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was a liberal. I love him, but he was a literal I know,

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I know, but I couldn't resist
saying that, I mean, yeah,

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of course you probably love her too
moderate that you are. Steve actually

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said he should moderate the cage match
because he was the only person in the

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middle who on earth would brag about
being in the middle on important political questions

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except Steve, I had to get
there. I guess that means I'm embarrassing.

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What's the old statement about who's in
the only middle? Things in the

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middle of the road or did did
armadillos dead rabbits? I guess I'm an

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Armadillo, not a Ryan, better
than being a Riyals. Well, look,

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I mean, first, we're talking
about for a bit, because I

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think there are some important lessons here. But also John, I think you

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know you met her Simon, you
know, dealt with her a little bit

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during year. I mean Arizona,
she used to come here, right Well

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anyway, well, all right,
what to say? I think, first

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of all, she's an object lesson
in the old fashion problem of people who

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go NATed when they go to Washington. You know, they grow in office,

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grow in office. Is that media
euphemism for moved to the left?

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Because I think that, you know, Reagan said in his diary during the

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controversy over appointment. I should back
up. By the way, Reagan promised

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to appoint him women. Okay,
maybe a foolish promise, but he was.

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You know's a campaign a week with
women, and yeah, how much

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as much fun of him as they
did Biden. By the way, Yeah

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well, okay, some people did
criticize it, and George will did for

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example, saying, why aren't we
just getting it over with an appointing?

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Bork and do stop. One of
the problems in nineteen eighty one is that

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there were very few women with significant
judicial experience who were Republicans. I mean

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you could probably find count them on
the fingers of one hand and have a

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couple left over. And I was
pretty young. Yeah, well, I

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don't know. I didn't see that
coming. I should have. And you

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know, Goldwater liked her, and
of course, you know, Goldwater was

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starting his drift and the left on
social issues around that time. But Reagan,

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you know, got a lot of
flak and he wrote in his diary

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and called a lot of evangelical leaders
and he said, look, I've talked

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to her. She assures me that
abortion is an area entirely legitimate for legislative

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control intervention, and by the way. The first case upon abortion on the

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Court when she was on it was
nineteen eighty four. It was Akron versus

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City of Columbus or something like that, the six or three votes striking down

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an attempt to regulate late term abortions, you know, case she voted with

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Rehnquist and Byron White, who were
the two no votes in ROW against striking

219
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it down. In other words,
her first ruling was on the pro life

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side. So you know, you
go fast forward. Sorry, sorry,

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I have to interrupt on that.
You know what, if the best you

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can do is stand on the principle
of late term abortions, that does not

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make you pro life, Steve,
I'm sorry, No, wait a minute,

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this look there's strategy. Wait a
minute, well, yes, because

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Eric Savage pross practice. However,
in the effort to bring a line of

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cases to finally unravel ROW, the
pro life movements legal strate. Just our

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friend Hadley arcis, let's start with
late term abortions. That's the hardest thing

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to defend, and the court botched
it in nineteen eighty four. But O'Connor

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is on the right side of that
at the very least, and it's later

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she becomes completely fully pro choice.
She was also the two cases that have

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always baffled me and John, you
may or may not want to sort us

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out on this is her two major
positions on property rights cases, the Midkiff

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versus Wahi Housing Authority in nineteen eighty
four and then her descent in Keiloh and

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what two thousand and five right,
Well, she I bet they they're not

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exactly the same cases, but there's
some parallels between them. In Hawaii,

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the housing authority Hawaii is this weird
land tenure system unlike any other state.

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Most of the private land was owned
by a tiny handful of landowners that went

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back to colonial days, I guess, and people who owned homes actually had

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them on ninety nine year leases.
And the initial argument was we need to

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exercise them a domain to take their
property and then sell it to the homeowners

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at a reasonable price, so they
essentially a feat simple ownership like the rest

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of us do in America. And
she wrote the opinion upholding that there were

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00:17:23.400 --> 00:17:26.839
other mischief involved that wanted to do
affordable housing. There's a lot of social

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engineering involved. But the point is
she wrote the opinion in that case upholding

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the exercise of domain to transfer property
from one private owner to a set of

246
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another private owners, which I think
is completely illegitimate in the Fifth Amendments taking

247
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claws. I think our pale Richard
Epstein agrees with that. That was certainly

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said. Seventeen ninety eight case that
called the versus Bull lays that out.

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And then Keilow, which involved the
similar principle at work transferring private property from

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one private owner to in this case
of big corporation, violated the same principle.

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And that case, again, that
was an Anthony Kennedy special, as

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I recall, he voted with the
majority of liberals, so five four.

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But O'Connor wrote a fabulous descent.
I think this was all wrong. And

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on the surface, John, it
looks to me like contradictory opinions. I

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can make out a consistency of why
she got there, why she ended up

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the way she did on those two
cases that look contradictory, except it's actually

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a bad lesson out of it,
which is she's for the little guy,

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oh the big guy, And in
Midkiff, you're taking property from the big

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guy and giving the little guy,
And in Keiloh, you were taking property

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from the little guy and giving the
big guy, and I think that explains

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her difference in those two cases.
And I think that's a terrible jurisprudential principle.

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And then that's we haven't even got
to grut her yet. But I'll

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just say that, Oh, look
before John, because I want to let

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hear John's you know, intelligent commentary
about that woos to what I'm about to

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say, which is, oh okay, about you were attacking me. I

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never thought I thought I would be
sort of the robin Hood kind of take

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from the rich, give to the
poor until today. And so you know,

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the whole idea that actually taking the
side of the poor and the little

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guy against the big guy may actually
be a principle that needs to be embraced

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this way. So all I'm gonna
say, I'm going to defer to John

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now. So I think these two
statements are consistent, are both true.

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We might think they're inconsistent. One
is I think when she was on the

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court, playing this role of the
fifth vote and doing things like that Stein's

274
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been criticizing her for, like ultimately
upholding the right to abortion in Casey or

275
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upholding affirmative action in Right Gruder,
she was I don't know what Lynda's going

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to say about this. I think
she was the most powerful woman in American

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politics. Her vote set the nation
policy on the most controversial She also issued

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a lot of important decisions on religion, right, establishment clause and religion that

279
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I think that was true. Who
else in that time period, right from

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the late eighties through to the early
two thousands was as important a woman important

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a woman, right, unless you're
saying something about Kennedy. I know that's

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what I'm saying. But she was
I think, Okay. And then at

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the same I don't disagree with that. I told you I didn't, John,

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But and remember what the second thing
you said was as a jurist,

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she was, Yes, this is
the thing. The second thing is that

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her power sprung from the fact that
she had no judicial philosophy or ideology.

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She was always the fifth vote because
she always wanted to be in the middle.

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She was a politician who never wanted
to finally decide things. And so

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I think she was really moved to
in her voting based on the way the

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facts came to her. As Steve
says in Kilo, the house that's condemned

291
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by the City of New London to
give to urban redevelopment is a little old

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grandma who's been living in that house
for a long time and doesn't want to

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move. Whereas in Hawaii it's right
as you said, rich landowners, and

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the taking is for to engage in
social redistribution, which she sympathized with in

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Hawaii. But so I think that
her she had no philosophy, said she

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would try to decide everything on the
facts and circumstances. She was a classic

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like common law lawyer. She would
have been a much better state judge state

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state judge. She was a state
judging authorized to make policy under their constitutions.

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But because she had no philosophy,
like a Scullia or a Thomas,

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for example, you knew how they
were going to vote basically in most cases

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because of their flow. She was
always in play. That indeterminacy is what

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was the root of her power.
She was always the vote that could be

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won by either side if they appealed
to her in the right way. So

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that is why I was curious what
Lucucia was going to say. I thought

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you might agree there, because her
power came from a lack of principle.

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This is very strange combination, and
I think Kennedy was like that too.

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Kennedy kind of took that and it
was like that. But power came from

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a lack of principle. And because
what I said was she had opportunities to

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write opinions in some of those cases
that I think were handed to her because

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she was a woman. Why give
her that god awful casey, the you

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know, the abortion case casey,
she sees it. She didn't get it,

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she didn't receive it. She sees
that with Kennedy and suitor and she

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the opinion. No. No,
she because a politician, and her wanted

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to have control in a way I
think some judges do, some judges don't.

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But the politician in her liked being
in the middle and start definitively controlling

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certain issues. Well, you know
what a terrible legacy from that point of

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00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:07.559
view, right, I mean,
well, you know that's fine. She

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was a politician, you know she
actually she was appointed to the Arizona Senate

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way back when supposedly she couldn't get
a job as with any law firm when

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she graduated from law school. She
got one offer as a legal secretary.

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Right, by the way, my
first job out in college was as a

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legal secretary just so you know,
well, wait a minute, find me.

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But anyway, she went to Stanford
Law School in the same class with

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William Rehnquist and my late father in
law. Totally, but here's the point.

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So, so, okay, trailblazer
whatever. I hate that stuff.

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But but here's so so she gets
opportunities. But back to your politician's comment,

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John, I think it's right on. It's absolutely right on. Because

328
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she was appointed to the Arizona Senate
and within sixty years rose to be the

329
00:24:02.200 --> 00:24:07.200
majority leader in the Senate. She
had to have some pretty significant political skills

330
00:24:07.240 --> 00:24:11.319
to do that, I would think, you know, and yeah, normally

331
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I think what you said is absolutely
right. That's great when you want a

332
00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:19.079
politician. That's not what you want
on the Supreme Court. And between her

333
00:24:19.319 --> 00:24:26.200
and Kennedy, there's just so much
bad jurisprudence during that period that had so

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much that damaged the country. You're
right about it being powerful. I don't

335
00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:37.400
dispute that, but so much damage
was done. Think if she hadn't decided

336
00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:44.319
grutterer with that ridiculously stupid, unprincipled
Yeah, you know, well it's okay

337
00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:45.920
for now, But I hope it's
come on in twenty five years. You

338
00:24:47.000 --> 00:24:49.319
know, you're saying that the most
powerful woman in America, and you were

339
00:24:49.519 --> 00:24:53.880
saying, oh my god, yeah
right. But I was just going to

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offer the comment that the Grutter case, I think you know this John was

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00:24:56.920 --> 00:25:00.319
brought by our friend Michael Grieve when
he ran in the Center for Individual Rights.

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And after they lost that case,
I remember him saying, in his

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00:25:04.799 --> 00:25:11.720
usual very splendidly snarky way, he
says, God help us when the constitution

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of the country depends upon the opinion
of some befuddled grandmother was really cranky about

345
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it, So I'm sorry. Another
thing is this is not a partisan thing

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00:25:23.119 --> 00:25:29.200
or a jurisprudential thing, because she
also issued decisions which are very good concern

347
00:25:29.319 --> 00:25:33.400
for conservatives. I think she was
pretty much responsible for the revival of federalism

348
00:25:33.480 --> 00:25:38.440
at the Supreme Court. I mean, she really was the one who pushed

349
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and pushed and pushed to give states
more of a role in the constitutional system.

350
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She did not. This is the
other weird thing about Grudery. She

351
00:25:47.799 --> 00:25:51.680
voted the wrong way in Cruder,
but she also wrote this case Crocin that

352
00:25:51.880 --> 00:25:56.519
knocked out affirmative a ration base affirm
of action in most other government programs contracting,

353
00:25:57.079 --> 00:26:02.839
government hiring. Even though this ignored
by the garment, it's an unconstitutional

354
00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:06.640
because of a con So this is
I agree with all the criticisms. I

355
00:26:06.759 --> 00:26:10.079
just want to make sure the listeners
know it's not because we happen to agree

356
00:26:10.119 --> 00:26:14.000
with her end result some all the
time or not. It's a way she

357
00:26:14.200 --> 00:26:18.200
got there, had no principle to
it. It always makes me happy that

358
00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:22.799
the first woman appointed was actually appointed
by Ronald Reagan. That that's true.

359
00:26:22.480 --> 00:26:33.880
I mean, I guess, I
guess sure women were discriminated against. Okay,

360
00:26:33.920 --> 00:26:38.599
but even back then, you couldn't
afford to if a woman was smart,

361
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if she was capable, people couldn't
afford to ignore them. That's always

362
00:26:45.039 --> 00:26:48.000
been the case. You know,
look at your mom. Look at your

363
00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:52.599
mom, John, I know we
don't want you can tell her what a

364
00:26:52.680 --> 00:26:57.839
fan of him. I mean,
she's like me. She doesn't glorify being

365
00:26:57.920 --> 00:27:03.440
the first woman doctor this or first
woman that this other interesting thing. Look

366
00:27:03.519 --> 00:27:08.680
at the difference between the way she's
treated and the way Ruth Bader Ginsburg is,

367
00:27:08.759 --> 00:27:11.160
Sir glory. Yeah, going to
be my next point, Yeah,

368
00:27:11.160 --> 00:27:14.680
because I think some of it.
You're right in this sense. Also,

369
00:27:14.720 --> 00:27:18.920
though, is that the sort of
feminists did not really embrace O'Connor. They

370
00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:21.839
didn't give her a lot of credit
for being the first woman. And look

371
00:27:21.880 --> 00:27:26.559
at all for the test, Yeah, look at all the you know,

372
00:27:26.759 --> 00:27:30.599
the love they show Ruth Bader Ginsburg
because she's really, you know, in

373
00:27:30.680 --> 00:27:34.039
their mind, the kind of trailblazer. I think it's one of the one

374
00:27:34.079 --> 00:27:37.200
other thing to say about her.
A plus a bit of trivia. You

375
00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:40.160
John, you man know the answer
this at Lucretia, You don't do you

376
00:27:40.240 --> 00:27:44.279
know who was the Justice Department lawyer
who sort of dreaded, dredged her up,

377
00:27:44.279 --> 00:27:47.119
that's too, sort of found her
and vented her and promoted her for

378
00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:52.119
the appointment. It was a guy
named Ken Starr a lot. Yeah.

379
00:27:52.240 --> 00:27:56.400
Well, my understanding is that the
idea came from red Quest actually, because

380
00:27:56.400 --> 00:28:02.559
as you said, yes, school's
right and re Quist. We forget before

381
00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:06.240
school how big a deal Redquist was
in the Conservative and he came out and

382
00:28:07.799 --> 00:28:14.000
I tell one charming story about that
shows Justice O'Connor's great political skills that come

383
00:28:14.039 --> 00:28:17.880
from my personal interaction with her.
Sure, so I don't think it's ever

384
00:28:17.960 --> 00:28:19.559
been reported this story. I mean
I've told it. I don't think I've

385
00:28:19.640 --> 00:28:25.000
told it in public. But so
I clerked for Justice Thomas in the early

386
00:28:25.119 --> 00:28:27.480
nineties. And one thing about Justice
Thomas is that he gets a lot of

387
00:28:27.599 --> 00:28:32.759
visitors, and I'm sure other justices
don't get So the year I was clerking

388
00:28:32.920 --> 00:28:38.240
was around Christmas time, Charles Barkley
came to see Justice Thomas. Now I'm

389
00:28:38.279 --> 00:28:41.920
from Philadelphia, so when I saw
that on sketchs like, Justice, just

390
00:28:42.079 --> 00:28:45.160
please let me greet him and take
him on a tour of the court.

391
00:28:45.200 --> 00:28:48.759
You've got to. I mean,
this is the most important thing other than

392
00:28:48.839 --> 00:28:52.319
like a Philadelphia Eagles or somebody coming
or you know, a Philadelphia come on,

393
00:28:52.440 --> 00:28:55.920
come on. So Justice is like, okay, you can. So

394
00:28:56.680 --> 00:29:00.000
at this time, Barkley had left
the seventies Xers and was playing for the

395
00:29:00.119 --> 00:29:06.519
Phoenix Suns of Arizona. Right eventually
got them to the finals, I think,

396
00:29:06.599 --> 00:29:10.279
but they lost. And so even
though it was my job to greet

397
00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:15.240
Charles Barkley, he doesn't. He's
not where he supposed to be at the

398
00:29:15.640 --> 00:29:18.920
nine am where I'm supposed to meet
him at the court and take him up

399
00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:22.759
to see Justice Thomas. Looking all
over. I'm looking all over for him.

400
00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:26.279
Somehow, it's not hard to miss, right, that's true the story.

401
00:29:26.960 --> 00:29:33.480
Somehow Justice O'Connor had heard he was
coming, I don't know how she

402
00:29:33.559 --> 00:29:40.079
felt, and intercepted him and dragged
him to her chambers to take a picture,

403
00:29:40.640 --> 00:29:42.359
which in the very next day showed
up on the front page of the

404
00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:52.519
Arizona Republic of Phoenix's number one basketball
politician with Pultic with no matter just on

405
00:29:52.680 --> 00:29:55.400
his you know, six foot nine
frame or whatever, six foot seven.

406
00:29:55.400 --> 00:29:59.000
I think he is putting the star
on top of her Christmas tree in her

407
00:29:59.039 --> 00:30:03.640
ey. I think when I saw
it, like, damn that woman,

408
00:30:03.720 --> 00:30:07.799
it was a great he is a
great politician. Well, I think I

409
00:30:07.880 --> 00:30:11.440
got just to finish the story.
I got to take Charles Barkley on a

410
00:30:11.480 --> 00:30:15.559
tour of the Supreme Court. And
there's a basketball court above the courtroom,

411
00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:18.240
which is called the highest court in
the land. And so, being you

412
00:30:18.319 --> 00:30:22.960
know, twenty five years old or
whatever I was, and Charles Barkley being

413
00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:26.559
a notoriously bad shooter, I challenged
him to a game of horse. Oh

414
00:30:26.680 --> 00:30:30.079
my god, I did, of
course I did. And uh, well,

415
00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:33.000
let's just say he didn't get a
single letter, because what I didn't

416
00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:37.759
realize is, yes, he's a
bad shooter in the NBA, but when

417
00:30:37.799 --> 00:30:41.279
there's no one defending you, an
NBA player can hit from everywhere without even

418
00:30:41.359 --> 00:30:45.480
looking. He made the most unbelievash
like the ones where you bounce it and

419
00:30:45.559 --> 00:30:48.240
it goes in the net and over
the court and no looking. I mean,

420
00:30:48.880 --> 00:30:55.039
did you make any I don't think
I ever got one. I don't.

421
00:30:55.119 --> 00:30:57.400
I think he just won the whole
like immediately, like that, in

422
00:30:57.519 --> 00:31:03.640
five minutes. It was amazing.
He was hitting shots from half quarter.

423
00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:08.319
Yeah, and then here's one more
story about Charles Barkley. Then I'll stop

424
00:31:08.440 --> 00:31:15.079
before I get sued for defamation.
So he asked me, could you explain

425
00:31:15.160 --> 00:31:18.759
the death penalty to me? So
I said, okay. So there's a

426
00:31:18.839 --> 00:31:22.759
stupid complicated system for that. First
you have to find they committed a capital

427
00:31:22.839 --> 00:31:26.640
murder, which is only certain kinds
of murder. And then there's a second

428
00:31:26.680 --> 00:31:30.559
trial about whether to give a death
penalty or lifeline lifelong uh, you know,

429
00:31:30.680 --> 00:31:33.599
life without parole. And he goes, no, no, some not,

430
00:31:33.880 --> 00:31:37.519
That's not what I'm interested. I
don't understand why we don't use a

431
00:31:37.559 --> 00:31:42.440
death penalty much more often. I
said, I said, I said,

432
00:31:42.519 --> 00:31:45.880
sir, Charles, you should run
for governor of Alabama, which is what

433
00:31:45.960 --> 00:31:48.799
he was thinking about at the time. I believe, Well, I think

434
00:31:49.319 --> 00:31:53.519
that's my brush with O'Connor and Charles
Barkley. Yeah. Yeah, I think

435
00:31:53.559 --> 00:31:59.079
two things say about her, one
political and one also cultural. You know,

436
00:31:59.279 --> 00:32:01.519
she did she was a loyal Republican. And here's why that's important.

437
00:32:02.720 --> 00:32:06.880
You know, David Souter, appointed
by George H. W. Bush in

438
00:32:06.880 --> 00:32:09.839
one of his biggest blunders, he
resigned a stepped down from the court went

439
00:32:09.960 --> 00:32:14.000
under Obama, so that Obama got
tough appoint his replacement, and it was

440
00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:17.759
either Kagan or so to my or
O'Connor waited for the Republican movements did the

441
00:32:17.799 --> 00:32:22.079
same thing. Stephen did the same
thing, right, and whereas O'Connor waited.

442
00:32:22.119 --> 00:32:25.119
And I've heard a couple of stories
about this. I'd heard she wanted

443
00:32:25.119 --> 00:32:28.440
to get off the court in the
late nineties because he was getting older,

444
00:32:28.519 --> 00:32:31.680
husband was was ill, but didn't
want Clinton to replace her. And then

445
00:32:31.839 --> 00:32:35.799
you know when the two thousand elections
turned out to be such a mess,

446
00:32:36.920 --> 00:32:39.359
And the story is that Robert Strauss
still then well respected the new the Bush

447
00:32:39.400 --> 00:32:42.359
family very well. Went to George
W. Bush and said, look,

448
00:32:43.000 --> 00:32:45.359
you know, because of this mess, you don't want any Supreme Court appointments

449
00:32:45.400 --> 00:32:49.200
in your first term. If you're
elected, fine, but you know,

450
00:32:49.480 --> 00:32:52.559
and the story I've heard secondhand a
couple of times is that, you know,

451
00:32:52.680 --> 00:32:57.039
after the election of Justice O'Connor was
saying to people, Dang, I

452
00:32:57.079 --> 00:32:59.279
guess I got to stick around another
four years till I can get off the

453
00:32:59.319 --> 00:33:01.920
court, and which in two thousand
and five, right, and you know

454
00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:06.039
that that's uh, that's that's not
unimportant. He'll put it that way.

455
00:33:06.440 --> 00:33:08.160
Well about it, you know.
Oh, can I say one thing about

456
00:33:08.160 --> 00:33:14.039
that precious point about how history might
have been different is the kind of core

457
00:33:14.119 --> 00:33:17.880
we have now could be completely different
too because of that. Remember when O'Connor

458
00:33:17.960 --> 00:33:22.200
retired, Bush appointed John Roberts,
and I think John Roberts would have been

459
00:33:22.240 --> 00:33:28.039
a much better Associate Justice. It's
been his chief Justice. But because O'Connor

460
00:33:28.079 --> 00:33:31.519
waited so long to retire, Renquist
died the same year and then Roberts was

461
00:33:31.640 --> 00:33:38.519
just elevated to chief nomine function replaced. So this is what happened. So

462
00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:44.759
after Roberts was okay, yeah,
and then then Alito was put into the

463
00:33:44.799 --> 00:33:47.960
O'Connor. I think how different things
could have been if John Roberts had just

464
00:33:49.039 --> 00:33:54.079
taken O'Connor's position and could just vote
the way he thinks it should really come

465
00:33:54.160 --> 00:33:59.160
out based on the merits, and
someone else has made chief justice. Well,

466
00:33:59.240 --> 00:34:01.240
that's an interesting in point. I
think that's probably right. And then

467
00:34:01.240 --> 00:34:04.359
there is I don't know if you
know this story, Johnny. It might

468
00:34:04.440 --> 00:34:07.279
have been a little before your time, but I think it was after the

469
00:34:07.880 --> 00:34:10.119
eighty four or eighty five Super Bowl
with the Redskins won. Yes, John,

470
00:34:10.159 --> 00:34:15.239
believe or not, the Redskins used
to win super Bowls, and O'Connor

471
00:34:15.400 --> 00:34:19.039
was seated next to the running back
John Riggans at the White House Correspondence dinner

472
00:34:19.159 --> 00:34:23.320
and it became a big story because
somehow he said he burns out to her,

473
00:34:23.440 --> 00:34:28.199
Oh, loosen up, Sandy Baby, which yeah, that's a famous

474
00:34:28.239 --> 00:34:34.320
story. And you know, and
later on she in some one of the

475
00:34:34.360 --> 00:34:36.920
grid Iron Dinners something a few years
later, she got back at him saying,

476
00:34:37.000 --> 00:34:38.559
loosen up, Johnny guy or something
like that. So she could roll

477
00:34:38.639 --> 00:34:42.280
that, right, She didn't.
She didn't make a big femini's defense about

478
00:34:42.280 --> 00:34:45.119
it or anything like that. It
was mostly the media freaking out, but

479
00:34:45.559 --> 00:34:49.599
he must have been freaking whatever.
Anyway, funny story. We're don Lucretia

480
00:34:49.719 --> 00:34:52.639
a great story. It's okay,
you guys. I'm sure somebody's going to

481
00:34:52.719 --> 00:34:58.599
find all that interesting. I'm kidding, I actually did. I hope said

482
00:34:58.679 --> 00:35:06.199
the others find it interesting. Before
we move on to the subject that might

483
00:35:06.320 --> 00:35:09.840
take us into our halfcage match,
I want to talk a little bit about

484
00:35:09.880 --> 00:35:19.480
what happened. We're recording this on
Friday night at the debate between Ron DeSantis,

485
00:35:19.599 --> 00:35:25.639
Governor of Florida, and Gavin Newsom, governor of California. And I

486
00:35:27.159 --> 00:35:30.320
told Steve, I asked you.
We kind of texted back and forth in

487
00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:31.880
real time as it was going on. I said, I don't have Fox

488
00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:35.320
News anymore. Should I go in
my car and listen to it? And

489
00:35:35.360 --> 00:35:37.639
he said, no, What did
you say it was a train wreck something

490
00:35:37.679 --> 00:35:40.800
like that. I mean, it
was actually pretty good. I sort of

491
00:35:40.840 --> 00:35:44.519
the process said, I thought it
was pretty good. The problem was the

492
00:35:45.920 --> 00:35:49.480
the best presidential debate we've had all
year, and maybe last year too.

493
00:35:49.800 --> 00:35:52.320
So I want to I want to
frame it. I want to frame this

494
00:35:52.599 --> 00:35:58.440
discussion not just as a wild go
anywhere you want, Gavin Newsom said,

495
00:35:58.920 --> 00:36:04.719
and you know he intended to be
an insult to Ronda Santis. He said,

496
00:36:05.119 --> 00:36:07.960
we talk about all the great insults. Ronda Santis got off, but

497
00:36:07.239 --> 00:36:12.320
let me start here, he said
to Ronda Santis. Gavin Newsen did that

498
00:36:12.719 --> 00:36:17.400
neither one of us on stage will
be the twenty twenty four nominees. Now

499
00:36:19.719 --> 00:36:25.719
I find Gavin Newson appalling, despicable. Every bad adjective you could come up

500
00:36:25.800 --> 00:36:30.639
with. You need to learn some
good, long ones like alligitius that one.

501
00:36:30.679 --> 00:36:37.960
But he's still universes ahead of just
in sort of the superficial stuff,

502
00:36:37.280 --> 00:36:43.559
Joe Biden. Yeah, Ronda Santis, I know he's been the subject of

503
00:36:43.760 --> 00:36:46.199
so much. You know, I
think you said it last week, Steve

504
00:36:46.320 --> 00:36:51.760
Trump, when it looked like he
might have a chance of beating Trump,

505
00:36:51.880 --> 00:36:54.920
they really took after him. He's
been the subject of almost as much anti

506
00:36:58.280 --> 00:37:01.840
liberal, anti whatever a Trump has
and so that's really pushed him down.

507
00:37:01.960 --> 00:37:07.800
You know, now they're championing that
woman from wherever it is she's from,

508
00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:12.199
who is the UN ambassador and didn't
call for defunding it. That's my big

509
00:37:12.280 --> 00:37:16.079
problem. Whether anyway, back to
DeSantis, So we got too pretty articulate.

510
00:37:16.320 --> 00:37:20.239
I mean, I know, it's
hard for me to say anything good

511
00:37:20.239 --> 00:37:27.599
about Newsom. I'm trying two pretty
articulate, fairly young, somewhat accomplished.

512
00:37:27.639 --> 00:37:30.559
I mean, Desanta, excuse me. Newsom is only just a pretty boy,

513
00:37:30.840 --> 00:37:35.679
a rich pretty boy who you know, everything he has was handed to

514
00:37:35.800 --> 00:37:39.480
him really on a silver platter.
But still governor of a big state,

515
00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:45.239
governor of a big state. Younger
guys. Some accomplishments in both cases.

516
00:37:45.280 --> 00:37:49.800
Whether you consider what Newsom did as
an accomplishment, he's proud of it.

517
00:37:50.440 --> 00:37:55.320
Supposedly you have right and left.
You have the two visions for the future

518
00:37:55.360 --> 00:38:01.039
of this country embodied in these two
men in a debate, and yet what

519
00:38:01.199 --> 00:38:05.559
are we going to face in twenty
twenty four? So let's go thinking about

520
00:38:05.559 --> 00:38:07.840
that as context. Let's go back
to the debate. Tell me what you

521
00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:12.480
thought you want to go first,
Sean or me? There you go ahead,

522
00:38:12.920 --> 00:38:15.320
Well, yeah, that I think. By the way, the preface

523
00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:19.760
Lucretia was he said there's one thing, the governor we can't agree on.

524
00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:22.320
That was otherwise we just were in
everything that neither one of us will be

525
00:38:22.360 --> 00:38:25.519
the nominated depart That was a dig
at DeSantis for trailing Trump so badly.

526
00:38:28.480 --> 00:38:30.519
When I said that, it was
initially as a train wreck because early on

527
00:38:30.599 --> 00:38:34.440
they were sort of talking over each
other and they wouldn't shut up, and

528
00:38:34.760 --> 00:38:37.360
Sean Handy didn't put his foot down
hard enough to stop that. I mean.

529
00:38:37.400 --> 00:38:40.559
The contrast is is you can find
this now on YouTube. The fan

530
00:38:40.760 --> 00:38:44.480
was debated and it was done by
TV, but it was between Ronald Reagan

531
00:38:44.559 --> 00:38:47.400
and Robert F. Kennedy Senior,
you know, back in nineteen sixty seven,

532
00:38:47.519 --> 00:38:51.920
and there that let each other finish. They didn't interrupt, they didn't

533
00:38:52.079 --> 00:38:53.679
you know, throw down the way. But that's very typical of our debates

534
00:38:53.760 --> 00:38:58.679
these days, because we've kind of
wrecked presidential debate when they weren't talking over

535
00:38:58.719 --> 00:39:01.679
each other, well, when they
weren't talking over each other and yelling at

536
00:39:01.679 --> 00:39:05.840
each other, the substance of it, I thought, for the most part,

537
00:39:05.920 --> 00:39:08.239
Desanta's Clabert Newsom, I mean,
I mean, my favorite one was

538
00:39:08.400 --> 00:39:13.400
is Newsom kept trying to Sanna's had
all kinds of facts and figures and a

539
00:39:13.440 --> 00:39:15.199
couple of zingers, like you know, there's this one guy moved to California,

540
00:39:15.400 --> 00:39:17.800
to California to Florida and saying,
I just love Florida. It's a

541
00:39:17.920 --> 00:39:22.400
free state. It's better governed.
And then the Santa Sads. Oh,

542
00:39:22.440 --> 00:39:24.840
by the way, that person is
covernor of Newsom's father in law. I

543
00:39:24.960 --> 00:39:29.079
thought that was a real But he
also had facts and figures are very good,

544
00:39:29.239 --> 00:39:31.960
and Newsom never had any facts and
figures in rebuttal. It was all

545
00:39:32.119 --> 00:39:36.400
generalities. He says, we're the
free state of California. You get an

546
00:39:36.400 --> 00:39:40.679
abortion here, oh joy, And
we don't ban books, and of course

547
00:39:40.719 --> 00:39:44.840
the Sancy that's not true, that's
a lie. But he had receipts.

548
00:39:44.840 --> 00:39:45.960
I mean, at one point he
held up a little piece of one of

549
00:39:46.000 --> 00:39:50.199
these books that he says, I
can't even show this right now on Fox

550
00:39:50.280 --> 00:39:52.840
News. I've had the blackout parts
of it because it's so pornographic, because

551
00:39:52.840 --> 00:39:55.760
we just don't want these in the
schools. They're not anyway. I thought

552
00:39:55.880 --> 00:40:00.519
that was very effective, holding up
the you know, an actual piece paper,

553
00:40:00.079 --> 00:40:05.280
right, yeah, the held up
the San Francisco that had to be

554
00:40:05.360 --> 00:40:13.440
a you know, and so I
mean, we're not to walk those were

555
00:40:13.440 --> 00:40:16.519
available, they all, yeah,
are they're supposed to be so you can

556
00:40:16.599 --> 00:40:22.880
report, you know, locations of
put it that way report deposits to the

557
00:40:25.719 --> 00:40:29.400
terrible We're going down the brain already
and it's not even half hour of the

558
00:40:29.440 --> 00:40:35.280
show. Okay, Anyway, my
verdict is I thought the Santa's outpointed Newsome

559
00:40:35.800 --> 00:40:40.320
uh Hannity promised to be non biased, but clearly tilted towards the Santas and

560
00:40:40.360 --> 00:40:44.360
had very tough questions produce him.
That's fine with me. Oh one way,

561
00:40:44.400 --> 00:40:46.400
I think you know the Santas one
is Newsom's complaining about it today.

562
00:40:46.760 --> 00:40:51.280
He was saying, well, did
you hear you know it's lightning story about

563
00:40:51.320 --> 00:40:55.199
the wife, about Newsom's wife,
did you guys hear about that? The

564
00:40:55.320 --> 00:41:00.639
story going out? And you know
the Newsom is denying it. But both

565
00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:07.280
DeSantis and Newsom agreed to go over
time because you know, we were still

566
00:41:07.400 --> 00:41:10.599
doing it, and DeSantis's wife,
who was backstage and there was no media

567
00:41:10.719 --> 00:41:16.639
there, said absolutely not marched out
on stage and stopped the debate from going

568
00:41:16.679 --> 00:41:21.679
any further because DeSantis was getting creamed, I mean, not to sant excuse

569
00:41:21.719 --> 00:41:23.880
me, Newsom was getting creams.
Newsom was getting yeah, yeah, no,

570
00:41:24.079 --> 00:41:29.559
I mean there was some square by
saw today where Newsom said to somebody,

571
00:41:29.679 --> 00:41:31.639
well, yeah, I'd be like
trying to some write when you're trying

572
00:41:31.639 --> 00:41:37.000
to debate Jane Fonda at Berkeley on
MSNBC. But I think it's important.

573
00:41:37.039 --> 00:41:38.280
We got to go to these forums
where they are and you know, try

574
00:41:38.400 --> 00:41:42.719
and come back to it. I
thought that was a concession that, uh,

575
00:41:43.159 --> 00:41:46.920
he had been overmatched. Yeah,
I like that the best line,

576
00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:51.719
John, did you catch the best
line of the whole night? Which one

577
00:41:51.840 --> 00:41:53.199
I thought. Actually, Desanta's got
a lot of good ones on them.

578
00:41:53.320 --> 00:41:57.559
I liked that about the father in
law. Yeah, I like them about

579
00:41:57.599 --> 00:42:00.920
the father in law. Just in
case anybody to tell him, Oh,

580
00:42:01.119 --> 00:42:07.320
Steve just mentioned it clearly, Okay, but I think but I think that

581
00:42:07.559 --> 00:42:09.360
well, yeah, so Desanta said, oh, I met this guy who

582
00:42:09.440 --> 00:42:13.559
just came from California, so I
love the low taxes, low crime.

583
00:42:14.000 --> 00:42:21.039
And it turned out to be Newsome's
father in law. Did it right?

584
00:42:21.239 --> 00:42:25.239
No, But that's what pissed off
the White supposedly. I mean, I

585
00:42:25.320 --> 00:42:30.639
think, actually it's a really interesting
study in contrast, because DeSantis is clearly

586
00:42:30.679 --> 00:42:35.679
a master of substance. Right if
if you if you want to, you

587
00:42:35.760 --> 00:42:37.840
want someone to run the government,
you would put it in his hands.

588
00:42:37.920 --> 00:42:43.639
He knows how to get things done. But he's getting clobbered in the primaries

589
00:42:43.679 --> 00:42:46.400
because he doesn't have what Newsom I
think has an abundance, which is style.

590
00:42:47.920 --> 00:42:53.039
I think Newsom is a perfect made
for TV, made for TikTok candidate.

591
00:42:53.199 --> 00:42:55.760
Right. He just speaks, and
you know, if you say he

592
00:42:55.880 --> 00:43:00.000
denies facts, he doesn't think.
He refuses to answer question. He loves

593
00:43:00.679 --> 00:43:05.880
Yeah. He just has this kind
of pre programmed latitudes. Right, Oh,

594
00:43:05.920 --> 00:43:07.920
where the state of freedom? You
know, where we don't do this?

595
00:43:08.079 --> 00:43:12.159
We don't. But so that was
one thing. The other thing I

596
00:43:12.199 --> 00:43:16.039
think was interesting about the debate was
I think it really was the most substantive

597
00:43:16.320 --> 00:43:21.480
debate we're going to see. I
would Biden and Trump debate if they both

598
00:43:21.519 --> 00:43:23.159
want. I bet it's not going
to get it to this level of detail

599
00:43:23.239 --> 00:43:28.360
of facts and real policy differences.
It'll be a lot of name calling and

600
00:43:28.440 --> 00:43:32.079
claims of corruption and tax on democracy. I thought it was really interesting when

601
00:43:32.079 --> 00:43:36.639
they had a debate about what to
do about immigration. They're right about abortion.

602
00:43:37.159 --> 00:43:40.960
It's really interesting Newsom refused to answer
questions on abortion at all because I

603
00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:45.320
think I mean DeSantis in hanned he
did gang up on them, but they

604
00:43:45.440 --> 00:43:49.480
did say where would you say what
point in the pregnancy are you not allowed

605
00:43:49.519 --> 00:43:53.519
to have an abortion? And Newsom
would not actually answer, and so I

606
00:43:53.599 --> 00:43:58.480
think was it DeSantis basically said,
althose you know they're talking at Richard.

607
00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:00.440
He said, oh, so you're
allowing abortion all the way up to the

608
00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:06.239
point of delivery, and knew some
could have easily denied that, and he

609
00:44:06.320 --> 00:44:15.199
didn't. And he didn't because how
his substance that the current the current position

610
00:44:15.400 --> 00:44:17.760
of the left that you just I
mean, he was willing to say things

611
00:44:17.800 --> 00:44:24.679
about the Biden administration that were so
false, so so obviously untrue. He

612
00:44:24.840 --> 00:44:30.760
was willing to say all that,
and yet he was unwilling to buck the

613
00:44:30.320 --> 00:44:35.480
pro abortion till they're thirteen years old
left and say, yeah, that there

614
00:44:35.559 --> 00:44:38.119
should be some limits. I mean
that that was I think you're right,

615
00:44:38.239 --> 00:44:43.519
John. It was a really telling
moment about in the crime. I mean,

616
00:44:43.599 --> 00:44:46.159
you know, he knew some had
no answers. Yeah, he basically

617
00:44:46.239 --> 00:44:50.039
just said, oh no, the
you know, the census is wrong or

618
00:44:50.800 --> 00:44:52.920
crime statistics are wrong. He had
no answer on crime, He had no

619
00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:58.400
answer on economic growth, no answer
of population movement. But he I bet

620
00:44:58.559 --> 00:45:01.039
if you did a all of the
people who watched I think knew. Some

621
00:45:01.119 --> 00:45:05.199
people say knew something did better than
they thought he was going to do because

622
00:45:05.199 --> 00:45:07.599
he never lost his cool. He
was very smooth. He seemed in command,

623
00:45:08.360 --> 00:45:12.280
even though he's a you know,
as you said, he's an empty

624
00:45:12.320 --> 00:45:15.079
suit. Yeah. Well, I've
been saying for a while that people shouldn't

625
00:45:15.519 --> 00:45:21.280
underestimate Newsome, but they shouldn't overestimate
I think there are limits to I'm not

626
00:45:21.360 --> 00:45:23.760
sure how well that would hold up. I mean, you know, Obama

627
00:45:23.840 --> 00:45:28.119
did have that sort of charisma about
him, and you know the novelty of

628
00:45:29.119 --> 00:45:31.119
what Obama was, and you knew
someone I don't look and get away with

629
00:45:31.159 --> 00:45:36.400
that for very long. Yeah,
yeah, especially because he's a white male

630
00:45:36.519 --> 00:45:42.519
that really really does look like the
penguin? Is it the one of those

631
00:45:42.800 --> 00:45:46.760
one of those characters from Batman that
you keep seeing the images on Twitter?

632
00:45:47.079 --> 00:45:51.960
I mean, it's perfect. He
He may be, you know, in

633
00:45:52.320 --> 00:45:59.679
sort of formal terms, good looking, but he's just got that slimy look

634
00:45:59.679 --> 00:46:02.159
about out him. And and when
he smiles, it's an evil smile.

635
00:46:02.360 --> 00:46:06.559
There's no if you outlaw fossil fuels, how is he going to get his

636
00:46:06.599 --> 00:46:09.239
hair cream? I mean, doesn't
he know that that's one person I saw

637
00:46:09.320 --> 00:46:14.199
on Twitter said that that's actually what
that map is for for him to collect.

638
00:46:17.039 --> 00:46:22.480
Sorry, I'm going to change the
subject because we're not obviously going to

639
00:46:22.519 --> 00:46:25.960
get to the cage match today.
We're actually very close to Steve's limit of

640
00:46:27.280 --> 00:46:30.400
an hour. And I know,
so you know, but I do want

641
00:46:30.400 --> 00:46:37.960
to ask you guys about about just
a few comments about Henry Kissinger, and

642
00:46:37.639 --> 00:46:43.159
only I believe it or not,
what I saw most today just sort of

643
00:46:43.239 --> 00:46:51.039
perusing the commentary at is, everybody
wanted to give their own personal reflections and

644
00:46:51.599 --> 00:46:55.320
the when they had dinner with Kissinger
and Buckley and when they went you know,

645
00:46:55.440 --> 00:46:58.679
da da da da da da da. Oh, who cares whatever,

646
00:46:58.920 --> 00:47:06.960
I'm so impressed about you. But
he did have a tremendous impact on the

647
00:47:07.079 --> 00:47:12.360
United States, on the Nixon and
Ford administrations that people still return to him

648
00:47:12.400 --> 00:47:16.079
for advice even up till his you
know, ninety nine and a half birthday.

649
00:47:16.840 --> 00:47:21.039
And so i'd like, I'm gonna
start with John, because John,

650
00:47:21.280 --> 00:47:22.639
you spent a long time in the
foreign policy world, and even though I

651
00:47:22.639 --> 00:47:28.119
think you're wrong about almost everything,
I'll bet your opinions about Kissinger are interested

652
00:47:28.199 --> 00:47:31.599
well you, Kissinger would have been
a good touchstone for our cage match because

653
00:47:32.199 --> 00:47:37.920
he I think shared some of your
view and some of my view, because

654
00:47:37.119 --> 00:47:43.000
if I remember, he thought that
the EU and NATO should not expand too

655
00:47:43.119 --> 00:47:46.159
far east, that it was going
to provoke Russia. And I remember he

656
00:47:46.280 --> 00:47:53.039
particularly mentioned Ukraine and some op eds
as going too far, as really starting

657
00:47:53.079 --> 00:47:57.440
to interfere with what Russia thought of
its historical sphere of interest, and we

658
00:47:57.480 --> 00:48:02.199
would provoke some kind of reaction.
That said, after Russia invaded Ukraine,

659
00:48:02.559 --> 00:48:08.519
Kissinger was pretty strong on giving all
aid that we could, and he wanted

660
00:48:08.599 --> 00:48:13.079
Ukraine to win. Now, maybe
he thought Ukraine might end up like a

661
00:48:13.199 --> 00:48:17.000
Finland or somehow like Austria was during
the Cold War, more neutral than an

662
00:48:17.039 --> 00:48:22.880
ally, but he really thought that
our stake, and it was our national

663
00:48:22.960 --> 00:48:27.960
interest, was to help Ukraine win. So I think that's very interesting actually

664
00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:31.840
to have both of those views at
the same time. The other thing about

665
00:48:32.199 --> 00:48:38.360
Kissinger is I think people are overstating
that he was the greatest Secretary of State

666
00:48:38.719 --> 00:48:43.559
of the twentieth century or even after
World War Two. I think that's clearly

667
00:48:43.639 --> 00:48:46.119
George Marshall and the Marshall Plan.
I mean, that's like I don't even

668
00:48:46.320 --> 00:48:53.039
think that's really close. But I
think what and I think Kissinger might have

669
00:48:53.079 --> 00:48:58.360
gotten something's wrong. I mean,
Steve's expert on Reagan, but we recall

670
00:48:58.480 --> 00:49:06.559
Reagan and the Conservatives who eventually won
after Kennedy. I'm sorry Carter campaigned against

671
00:49:06.639 --> 00:49:10.480
the detent of Kissinger and Nixon that
uh, you know what, and what

672
00:49:10.559 --> 00:49:15.880
Kissinger did is something a student of
diplocmatic history would try to do. He

673
00:49:15.880 --> 00:49:20.079
went try to achieve victory as Reagan
right. Reagan said, we're going to

674
00:49:20.119 --> 00:49:22.800
you know, we win, they
lose. Kissinger wanted stability. That's what

675
00:49:23.000 --> 00:49:28.199
he wanted more than everything, and
to have stability meant to he wanted to

676
00:49:28.239 --> 00:49:32.440
reach a modus vivendi with the Soviet
Union, so you have assault agreements and

677
00:49:32.519 --> 00:49:37.880
you have these ABM trees. He
tried to stabilize the relationship so we weren't

678
00:49:37.880 --> 00:49:40.039
competing against each other. I think
that was a mistake, but I do

679
00:49:40.159 --> 00:49:44.880
think the brilliant insight he had,
and I think Nixon deserves equal credit,

680
00:49:45.079 --> 00:49:49.320
was the opening to China. Now, Conservatives today, I've been hearing them

681
00:49:49.400 --> 00:49:57.599
criticize the Kissinger for the opening for
China in forty years, but then open

682
00:49:58.000 --> 00:50:00.639
the opening to China. Did how
help us beat the Soviet Union? And

683
00:50:00.880 --> 00:50:05.719
that was that was the more and
I think the Soviet Union even then was

684
00:50:05.800 --> 00:50:07.440
a greater threat to us in China
is now. We had to win that

685
00:50:07.519 --> 00:50:10.400
one first, until we ever got
to the point of worrying about what to

686
00:50:10.480 --> 00:50:14.679
do about China. Sylvie Union had
you know, just as many, if

687
00:50:14.719 --> 00:50:17.159
not more nuclear weapons that we did, and they were pursuing an aggressive foreign

688
00:50:17.199 --> 00:50:22.199
policy all around the world. So
I don't blame Kissinger and Nixon for trying

689
00:50:22.239 --> 00:50:27.719
to solve the Soviet Union challenge first
and deferring until many, many years later

690
00:50:28.360 --> 00:50:31.079
what to do if China ever turned
that way too. And then lastly,

691
00:50:31.159 --> 00:50:36.800
let me say, the unfortunate thing
about this effort to have stability and so

692
00:50:36.920 --> 00:50:40.079
on is that, as many people
point out, it can lead people to

693
00:50:40.159 --> 00:50:45.519
think that he was callous about human
life. You had the you know,

694
00:50:45.639 --> 00:50:52.000
the withdrawal from Saigon and Vietnam.
There's a terrible humiliation for the United States

695
00:50:52.880 --> 00:50:58.960
accused of overthrowing you know, Les
Alunde Allende in Chile and so on,

696
00:50:59.119 --> 00:51:05.119
you know, to you know,
get allies against the Soviets and communism,

697
00:51:05.239 --> 00:51:09.280
rather than fostering democracy and human rights. But I actually think he was right

698
00:51:09.400 --> 00:51:13.880
and Kirkpatrick were right to say,
you know, we had to alle with

699
00:51:14.039 --> 00:51:16.920
some unpleasant regimes to beat the Soviets, and that was the major issue of

700
00:51:17.079 --> 00:51:21.239
their day. And I don't blame
I actually don't blame them for it.

701
00:51:21.519 --> 00:51:23.519
I don't. You know. This
is another odd thing I've read people say,

702
00:51:23.559 --> 00:51:27.599
which I think is actually backwards,
As people have said, oh,

703
00:51:27.880 --> 00:51:30.159
he was almost more influential, more
important for what he did after he was

704
00:51:30.199 --> 00:51:35.079
Secretary of State and this advising role
of CRECIA mentioned and writing all these books

705
00:51:35.119 --> 00:51:39.199
about China. He just had a
book about Ai. But I actually think

706
00:51:39.880 --> 00:51:45.360
I'm not sure his advice was always
so good after he was Secretary of State.

707
00:51:45.400 --> 00:51:50.440
I think he did okay as Secretary
of State and his post post government

708
00:51:50.480 --> 00:51:52.519
career trying to influence presidents. You
know, people kept saying, oh,

709
00:51:52.559 --> 00:51:57.559
we advised so many presidents, a
quarter of all presidents who've ever been in

710
00:51:57.639 --> 00:52:02.119
office. I'm not sure that was
so so one mistake I think he made,

711
00:52:04.280 --> 00:52:07.639
and I think Margaret Thatcher made it. They didn't want necessary to have

712
00:52:07.760 --> 00:52:12.280
quick unification of Germany. They didn't
want Eastern Europe to fall into our lap,

713
00:52:12.400 --> 00:52:15.440
so quickly. They were so overly
worried about Russia and the Sovietian and

714
00:52:15.519 --> 00:52:20.639
the need for stability, they wouldn't
they wouldn't run. They let the table

715
00:52:20.719 --> 00:52:22.719
run when it was to our advantage, right, didn't liked it when the

716
00:52:22.760 --> 00:52:27.760
revolution was on our side. That
was a big mistake. And I'm glad,

717
00:52:27.920 --> 00:52:31.119
like Reagan and George H. W. Bush took a full advantage actually

718
00:52:31.199 --> 00:52:38.000
of the change to make sure that
Europe became democratic and capitalists and on our

719
00:52:38.119 --> 00:52:43.840
side. Yeah, so, oh
gosh, we're to start here. I'll

720
00:52:43.880 --> 00:52:47.559
start with the longevity question that you
and Lucasia mentioned. Has there ever been

721
00:52:47.599 --> 00:52:52.920
another Secretary of State who so compelled
the attention of leaders around the world for

722
00:52:53.360 --> 00:52:57.400
fifty years after he was out of
office. No, not one. I

723
00:52:57.480 --> 00:53:01.159
can't. I mean you mentioned Marshall
to be talking about it in another forty

724
00:53:01.280 --> 00:53:05.440
years. No, he's gonna go
back to being one of the reindeer.

725
00:53:05.559 --> 00:53:12.239
Wasn't blinking one of the Okay,
I mean that part of that is Kissinger's

726
00:53:12.840 --> 00:53:15.239
genius for self promotion, which he
had before he was Secretary of State,

727
00:53:15.320 --> 00:53:20.360
before Nixon. You know, Rockefeller
and Nixon, Sorry, it was Rockefeller

728
00:53:20.440 --> 00:53:22.599
and Bill Buckley. You both said
to Nixon. First, Nixon familiar with

729
00:53:22.679 --> 00:53:25.800
him, you should hire this guy. But so there's that part of that.

730
00:53:27.159 --> 00:53:30.000
Part of it too is another superficial
thing. Uh. He was so

731
00:53:30.199 --> 00:53:32.960
hated by the left for some of
the reasons you mentioned. It seemed to

732
00:53:34.000 --> 00:53:37.280
go beyond criticisms of his handling of
the war and the role in the overstated

733
00:53:37.400 --> 00:53:43.480
role in the Pinochet coup against the
end in seventy three. You know he

734
00:53:43.480 --> 00:53:46.159
should be tried as a human I
don't know. Rich Christopher Hitchins wrote a

735
00:53:46.159 --> 00:53:50.920
whole book about how it should be
tried by international tribunal. Ridiculous stuff that

736
00:53:51.039 --> 00:53:53.280
almost wants you to make you defend
him, right for the same reason you

737
00:53:53.400 --> 00:53:57.800
kind of rally behind Nixon because the
enemies he had were deranged. It's a

738
00:53:57.920 --> 00:54:00.440
certain way, but it is important
gild your point, John. In nineteen

739
00:54:00.519 --> 00:54:07.360
seventy six, both Reagan and Jimmy
Carter ran against Kissinger, you kissing at

740
00:54:07.400 --> 00:54:10.679
the cost of detent and especially abandoning
an emphasis on human rights. And then

741
00:54:10.719 --> 00:54:15.079
of course the famous Helsinkia or you'll
talk about that if we want. Perhaps

742
00:54:15.719 --> 00:54:22.119
it gave Carter an opening to attack
Kissinger from the right, and that was

743
00:54:22.239 --> 00:54:24.400
part of what made Jimmy Carter appealing
to even some conservatives. By the way,

744
00:54:24.400 --> 00:54:27.280
if you go back to a lot
of conservatives saying, hey, this

745
00:54:27.360 --> 00:54:30.239
Carter guy might be pretty good,
and you know they were disabused later.

746
00:54:30.360 --> 00:54:36.320
But and in nineteen eighty when Reagan
wins, it was you know, I

747
00:54:36.360 --> 00:54:37.519
don't know how much does ever in
the press, but I know for my

748
00:54:37.559 --> 00:54:42.679
own researches, and you know,
people, I know a lot of people

749
00:54:42.840 --> 00:54:45.639
wanted Kissinger, and Kissinger wanted to
be brought back to Secretary of State.

750
00:54:45.800 --> 00:54:49.920
And you know the word came down
from a lot of important conservatives. No

751
00:54:50.159 --> 00:54:53.679
way know how he's never getting near
the State Department ever again. And my

752
00:54:53.760 --> 00:54:59.880
mentor Stan Evans, he said,
I've got a long account this in my

753
00:55:00.039 --> 00:55:02.840
book that I only met Henry Kissinger
three times and he lied to me every

754
00:55:02.920 --> 00:55:08.320
time and did a transcript. Yeah, well, I found a transcript of

755
00:55:08.519 --> 00:55:13.960
when when the conservatives were after Nixon
seventy one and Kissinger you know this academic.

756
00:55:14.039 --> 00:55:15.480
But I'll meet with all these conservatives, some a few of whom are

757
00:55:15.519 --> 00:55:19.920
still alive, like I think Neil
Freeman was there at the meeting, and

758
00:55:20.480 --> 00:55:23.119
most of them were passed away.
But Stan was the ringleader at this meeting.

759
00:55:23.320 --> 00:55:27.559
And I found a transcript of you
know, sort of an aid memoir

760
00:55:27.920 --> 00:55:30.599
of from Kissinger's office that are in
the archives, and it's like fifteen pages

761
00:55:30.639 --> 00:55:34.760
long. It's very verbatim, and
I'm thinking, damn that sob tape that

762
00:55:34.880 --> 00:55:37.519
meeting, because it's just too good
to have been from a note taker.

763
00:55:37.639 --> 00:55:39.920
Right. So and so there's you
know, Kissinger, and there's Stan Evans

764
00:55:40.000 --> 00:55:45.159
just laying into him. It was
that's great stuff. Oh sorry, yeah,

765
00:55:45.360 --> 00:55:49.920
well I will say finally, last
point. Here's the real difficulty about

766
00:55:49.960 --> 00:55:55.159
Kissinger that you say he wants stability, John true, why do you want

767
00:55:55.199 --> 00:55:59.800
stability? And let's try to await
conflict. That's because people think, deep

768
00:56:00.079 --> 00:56:06.559
down he was a pessimistic Splierian person
who thought the West was going to lose

769
00:56:06.679 --> 00:56:08.880
the Soviet Union in our job.
His job was to try and stave it

770
00:56:09.000 --> 00:56:15.480
off and preserve our viability as long
as possible. There's a lot of evidence

771
00:56:15.480 --> 00:56:19.159
to this going back to the fifties. I have that in my first Reagan

772
00:56:19.199 --> 00:56:22.000
book about some people who heard him
when he was a young academic at Harvard,

773
00:56:22.119 --> 00:56:25.119
very impressed with a guy and you
know, being very pessimistic about the

774
00:56:25.639 --> 00:56:30.119
progress of democracy. So the point
is Dayton was a strategy of losing slowly.

775
00:56:30.519 --> 00:56:34.960
Whereas Angelo Codevilla put it, Dayton
wasn't was the attempt to bribe the

776
00:56:35.119 --> 00:56:40.239
Soviet Union not to use their weapons
against us. And oh and then finally

777
00:56:40.280 --> 00:56:45.840
I guild that point is Kissinger is
great to read, and I did read

778
00:56:45.960 --> 00:56:49.800
all three of his volumes of his
White House Years. The interesting thing is

779
00:56:49.840 --> 00:56:52.639
the first they're great book. The
first two came out in what the seventies

780
00:56:52.679 --> 00:56:54.280
and the eighties, and the third
one came out around two thousand and two

781
00:56:54.320 --> 00:56:58.599
thousand and one, at which point
the Cold War was over. And the

782
00:56:58.679 --> 00:57:00.519
first two it was like, by
the way, I think Kissinger's the guy

783
00:57:00.559 --> 00:57:04.719
who says, nobody ever comes out
second best in their account of you know,

784
00:57:04.880 --> 00:57:07.719
some episode. And so a lot
of it is how brilliant he was.

785
00:57:07.719 --> 00:57:10.679
Okay, you discount all that.
That's still great reading. And I'm

786
00:57:10.719 --> 00:57:15.400
sure he's right about a lot of
things. But that third volume his theme,

787
00:57:15.719 --> 00:57:19.480
his subtle theme, but it's unmistakable
was you know, Reagan was great,

788
00:57:19.559 --> 00:57:22.679
we won the Cold War, and
boy things were tough for us under

789
00:57:22.800 --> 00:57:25.679
Nixon. Proof But and so we
saw our job really is holding the line

790
00:57:25.760 --> 00:57:30.079
until someone like Reagan could come along
and build on our work to win the

791
00:57:30.119 --> 00:57:34.079
Cold War. I'm thinking, oh, come on, Henry, that was

792
00:57:34.199 --> 00:57:37.119
just okay, five Hans, Joe, okay, go ahead. That was

793
00:57:37.239 --> 00:57:42.760
told about Kissinger. I'm not even
going to wear Kissinger, it seems,

794
00:57:43.079 --> 00:57:46.920
obtained a length of top quality tweed
cloth that he wished to have made into

795
00:57:47.000 --> 00:57:51.960
a suit. Taylor's in Washington and
New York, after measuring him, said

796
00:57:52.039 --> 00:57:57.360
there was insufficient material for trousers and
a jacket that would fit. In London,

797
00:57:57.480 --> 00:58:00.400
France, and Germany, where he
went on diplomatic mission, the same

798
00:58:00.440 --> 00:58:02.880
morning was repeated by the best tailors
in these countries. Then he came to

799
00:58:04.000 --> 00:58:07.559
Jerusalem and was told by a Jewish
tailor to leave the material and return in

800
00:58:07.639 --> 00:58:13.559
ten days. When Kissinger came back
after meetings in Egypt, Arabia, Syria,

801
00:58:13.719 --> 00:58:16.119
and Iran, he was astonished to
find not only a suit that fit

802
00:58:16.199 --> 00:58:21.079
him perfectly, but a vest an, additional jacket, and two extra pairs

803
00:58:21.119 --> 00:58:24.360
of trousers, all made from that
same length of material. How is it

804
00:58:24.480 --> 00:58:29.480
possible, asked Henry Kissinger that in
New York, Washington, London, Paris,

805
00:58:29.519 --> 00:58:31.119
in Germany, I was told there
was not enough material for even a

806
00:58:31.199 --> 00:58:36.519
suit. And here in Israel you
were able to make so much because here

807
00:58:36.599 --> 00:58:39.119
in Israel, said the Jewish tailor, you are not such a big man.

808
00:58:46.000 --> 00:58:52.519
There's my contribution to the Kissinger stuff
today that we kind of hoped that

809
00:58:52.559 --> 00:58:58.239
it might lead us into taking up
the discussion that John and I just barely

810
00:58:58.280 --> 00:59:01.039
had a time to start last week
when John was confused about whether he should

811
00:59:01.079 --> 00:59:06.000
call me. I don't know about
Steve. Steve who knows the moderate that

812
00:59:06.079 --> 00:59:10.960
he is, Steve me a neo
khon or a realist, and we were

813
00:59:12.039 --> 00:59:15.039
going to take that up along with
a larger discussion of Ukraine. I do

814
00:59:15.119 --> 00:59:19.800
want to point out that, you
know that big meeting at the and Seemi

815
00:59:19.920 --> 00:59:25.440
Valley today hosted by the Reagan Library
people, where you know Lloyd Austin is

816
00:59:25.519 --> 00:59:30.559
there, and this, and that
they came out with this. Does does

817
00:59:30.599 --> 00:59:37.320
the Reagan Library the Foundation have some
sort of polling meccan polling company polling your

818
00:59:37.400 --> 00:59:42.400
unis anyway, So every year they
take a poll and this, among other

819
00:59:42.480 --> 00:59:47.159
things. Their poll indicated that something
on the order of seventy one percent of

820
00:59:47.280 --> 00:59:59.440
Americans favored additional money for the Ukrainian
effort, additional for Congress to pass more

821
01:00:00.000 --> 01:00:02.679
and slow and behold, this poll
came out right out before all of these

822
01:00:02.920 --> 01:00:07.360
you know, Lloyd Austin, all
these important people came to decide how,

823
01:00:07.800 --> 01:00:09.199
you know, how we're going to
go forward on the question of Ukraine and

824
01:00:09.280 --> 01:00:13.320
China and this and that. What
crap. But anyway, because every other

825
01:00:13.400 --> 01:00:17.639
polse is just the opposite, right
that we don't know we have to solve.

826
01:00:19.119 --> 01:00:22.960
Sorry, John, but it's actually
everywhere solve our border crisis before you

827
01:00:23.079 --> 01:00:27.679
solve Ukraine's border crisis, right anyway, And that's you know, that's a

828
01:00:27.760 --> 01:00:30.400
fight in Congress right now, right, fair enough, right, I mean,

829
01:00:30.440 --> 01:00:32.079
I'm not even making that up,
John, it's the fight in Congress.

830
01:00:32.679 --> 01:00:36.199
But I'm kind of think, well, don't the polls also show that

831
01:00:36.320 --> 01:00:39.760
a majority of Americans want to continue
supporting Ukraine. Actually, the majority of

832
01:00:39.840 --> 01:00:45.440
polls don't show that, but this
one did. Well. I've seen different

833
01:00:45.559 --> 01:00:47.360
results, and you know I won't
repeat them. Now. You know my

834
01:00:47.480 --> 01:00:52.440
views on issue polling and how bad
that is and how valueless it really is.

835
01:00:52.000 --> 01:00:55.639
I do think though, here's my
sense of it is there's a bit

836
01:00:55.719 --> 01:01:01.119
of a paradox right now, which
is, I do think that all the

837
01:01:01.159 --> 01:01:04.519
polls show pretty much the same thing. I think this is true. There's

838
01:01:04.639 --> 01:01:08.440
overwhelming American public support for Israel,
except among college campus crazy kids and the

839
01:01:08.519 --> 01:01:13.599
faculty, and that has kind of
put the Ukrainian war on the back burner,

840
01:01:13.800 --> 01:01:15.079
right. It's you know, it's
not the first thing we're talking about

841
01:01:15.119 --> 01:01:20.360
now. The thing we're talking about
now is the Israeli Gaza war. And

842
01:01:20.440 --> 01:01:22.000
at the same time, I'll bet
there's an undertow from that. I'll bet

843
01:01:22.039 --> 01:01:24.599
there are a lot of people.
And of course the other thing in Lucretia

844
01:01:24.719 --> 01:01:29.119
is that a lot of opinions are
weekly held, and so you know,

845
01:01:29.159 --> 01:01:32.239
you don't want to take these to
the banks when maybe accurate. But the

846
01:01:32.320 --> 01:01:35.559
point, well, that's right,
But the point is, well, you

847
01:01:36.159 --> 01:01:38.280
well know, I won't go through
my progression of how to think about these

848
01:01:38.360 --> 01:01:42.079
things. But the point is is
that there may be an undertow where people

849
01:01:42.519 --> 01:01:45.039
say, yeah, and actually,
I guess I'm for Ukraine too. I

850
01:01:45.039 --> 01:01:51.159
wouldn't be all surprised to see rising
support for Ukrainian aid as as sort of

851
01:01:51.280 --> 01:01:54.480
a you know, an undertow or
I don't know what you put it a

852
01:01:54.599 --> 01:01:59.920
collateral sentiment with the Israeli war.
I think if you ask the Mary,

853
01:02:00.119 --> 01:02:02.320
my hunch is if you did a
really serious serve of Americans, they'd say

854
01:02:02.400 --> 01:02:06.800
Israel's more important. Ukraine. Yeah, I don't like Russia, but Israel's

855
01:02:06.840 --> 01:02:08.840
really important. That should be prior
to one. This is what I don't

856
01:02:08.880 --> 01:02:13.800
get about this question. So one
thing is I don't think it's a binary

857
01:02:14.280 --> 01:02:21.280
or tri trinitarian choice. I don't
want to get back into this council argument

858
01:02:21.400 --> 01:02:24.519
with you guys. No, but
it's you could secure the border and give

859
01:02:24.679 --> 01:02:29.679
a to Ukraine and give a to
Israel. I think they're all well worth

860
01:02:29.760 --> 01:02:32.679
The amount of money roots the return
to the country of one hundred billion to

861
01:02:32.760 --> 01:02:37.280
each of those is well worth it. In fact, I don't think a

862
01:02:37.480 --> 01:02:42.079
to Israel or securing the border require
that much. So I don't think it's

863
01:02:42.119 --> 01:02:45.679
like a either or choice. Why
can't we do No, that's a that's

864
01:02:45.719 --> 01:02:51.039
a very clever way, John of
driving Lucretia into Paul Ryan's arms to be

865
01:02:51.119 --> 01:02:54.039
a death of the talk. Oh
my gosh, I didn't even know I

866
01:02:54.199 --> 01:02:58.920
was doing that. But I'll try
to do more in the future. Well,

867
01:02:59.119 --> 01:03:01.519
no, I mean it's a serious
point now that our spending is so

868
01:03:01.800 --> 01:03:06.239
out of control that even one hundred
billion dollars A yeah, I mean that's

869
01:03:06.400 --> 01:03:09.400
that's the problem that the conversation goes
in that direction though, I don't mean

870
01:03:09.440 --> 01:03:15.639
inew but understand how awful things are
for you to say when we're how many

871
01:03:15.719 --> 01:03:21.280
trillion dollars in debt, what's another
one hundred billion? Right, that's what

872
01:03:21.559 --> 01:03:25.480
everybody says, what's another I think
of it as budget dust, right,

873
01:03:25.639 --> 01:03:30.559
I think of it as the return
on the expenditure. Are we getting good

874
01:03:30.679 --> 01:03:34.000
value for them? And look,
the budget is not going to be cured

875
01:03:34.119 --> 01:03:37.880
or not based on stopping ad in
Ukraine or Israel or the border. It's

876
01:03:37.920 --> 01:03:40.840
going to be fixing titlements. Right. You could just change the inflation the

877
01:03:40.920 --> 01:03:45.920
CPI adjustment for social cure payments and
you can easily pay for all this.

878
01:03:45.199 --> 01:03:47.719
Right, this is this is not
a lot of money, because this is

879
01:03:47.840 --> 01:03:52.440
not the real threat being caught.
Look, and I think Lucasian and I

880
01:03:52.480 --> 01:03:55.960
would agree we should measure each one
in terms of national interest, right.

881
01:03:57.280 --> 01:04:01.400
I'm not saying we should fight European
wars for Europeans or Middle Eastern World wars

882
01:04:01.480 --> 01:04:04.440
for Israelis, we got to fight
them when they're in our interest. So

883
01:04:04.599 --> 01:04:11.320
let me ask you this, why
is Israel more important than Ukraine? So

884
01:04:11.440 --> 01:04:15.000
here in Ukraine, let meus lay
that the strategy has been. We had

885
01:04:15.039 --> 01:04:19.679
to go to war twice over there, lost lots of American lives, destroyed

886
01:04:20.360 --> 01:04:26.800
billions of trillions of dollars in American
wealth to restore order in Europe, we

887
01:04:26.880 --> 01:04:30.880
got dragged into two world wars.
I think one of the great achievements of

888
01:04:30.039 --> 01:04:36.400
the Cold War is that we made
Europe free market based and all the way

889
01:04:36.480 --> 01:04:41.880
up to Ukraine members of NATO and
the EU. It's an incredible achievement.

890
01:04:42.079 --> 01:04:47.360
Europe has been the center of fighting
in the modern history system for five hundred

891
01:04:47.440 --> 01:04:53.039
years. They've been killing each other
and dragging us into it. I think

892
01:04:53.079 --> 01:04:55.599
you just answered young question. But
to me, it seems to me that

893
01:04:55.800 --> 01:04:59.760
Ukraine and Europe maintaining a piece there
is far more important to our national and

894
01:05:00.000 --> 01:05:03.960
trusts actually than israel Is. Unless
and this is why accused the Crucia of

895
01:05:04.000 --> 01:05:09.679
being a neocona at heart, is
unless you care about the regime you're saving,

896
01:05:10.440 --> 01:05:13.800
right, you like Israel? I
like Israel because it's a democ it's

897
01:05:13.800 --> 01:05:16.280
a Western democracy, it's a lot
like America, and so we're going to

898
01:05:16.320 --> 01:05:19.599
go to greater lengths to save them
than Ukraine. Eve, though, I

899
01:05:19.639 --> 01:05:24.519
think from a strategic perspective, the
Middle East is just not as important as

900
01:05:24.559 --> 01:05:29.280
Europe to our security. There's not
time to pick that one up today,

901
01:05:29.360 --> 01:05:31.679
Steve. I hate to say it. I think I got a bar next

902
01:05:31.800 --> 01:05:36.599
time. It's just fair question,
John, It's an absolutely fair question.

903
01:05:38.079 --> 01:05:41.679
But I don't I have a whole
week to get your remarks ready. No,

904
01:05:41.920 --> 01:05:45.400
I've got plenty of remarks. I
can I just try a very brief

905
01:05:45.679 --> 01:05:49.840
plant, a very brief flag in
the way of response, which is this

906
01:05:50.000 --> 01:05:56.000
is not a question that should be
answered primarily materially, which I think is

907
01:05:56.039 --> 01:05:59.639
what you just did, John.
And it's not that it's invalid, but

908
01:06:00.440 --> 01:06:03.519
I will repair to Winston Churchill's single
sentence in the last volumes of World War

909
01:06:03.599 --> 01:06:08.000
Two Memoirs, which how's that go? The crease? It was like all

910
01:06:08.079 --> 01:06:14.559
that is best in Western civilization comes
to us from Jerusalem and Athens. Athens,

911
01:06:14.599 --> 01:06:16.000
if you want to say that as
a traditional reason, is under assault

912
01:06:16.039 --> 01:06:19.960
at home in our universities, et
cetera. But Jerusalem, however, you

913
01:06:20.039 --> 01:06:24.880
can sive it, and certainly Jerusalem
today still stands for that proposition, and

914
01:06:25.000 --> 01:06:30.960
so as an idea and as a
vindication of the essence of Western civilization.

915
01:06:30.400 --> 01:06:36.400
That's why Israel is more important than
Ukraine. That's all. We have to

916
01:06:36.440 --> 01:06:45.280
protect Jerusalem and Athens because they gave
birth to doesn't matter what saying, but

917
01:06:45.360 --> 01:06:50.559
it's very Yeah, the ideas,
the idea, those places. Okay,

918
01:06:50.719 --> 01:06:55.079
so I'm going to the auto control
both of those places. I'm going to

919
01:06:55.159 --> 01:07:00.440
give you this simple answer. If
I'm sorry, my dogs, If I'm

920
01:07:00.480 --> 01:07:04.719
a human being, especially quite frankly, okay, I'll be. I'll be

921
01:07:04.800 --> 01:07:11.960
a feminist here for a moment.
I'll be a feel I have a female.

922
01:07:12.199 --> 01:07:14.679
I may not be a feminist,
but I am a female. If

923
01:07:14.719 --> 01:07:18.559
I have a choice of living in
Ukraine versus Russia, no difference to me.

924
01:07:19.679 --> 01:07:25.480
Corrupt the backward societies to some extent, Okay, maybe neither one of

925
01:07:25.519 --> 01:07:30.639
them are so terrible. I don't
see a clash of civilizations there. I

926
01:07:30.760 --> 01:07:34.320
see a clash of just mirror petty. From a grand point of view,

927
01:07:34.440 --> 01:07:45.679
interest the clash of civilizations between the
Muslim world a lie a raid against Israel.

928
01:07:46.679 --> 01:07:49.559
I don't want to live in a
Muslim country. It will never even

929
01:07:49.760 --> 01:07:54.320
go to a Muslim country unless I
can be guaranteed that I can live exactly

930
01:07:54.360 --> 01:07:57.840
the way I want that I live
here. I would go to Israel.

931
01:07:58.000 --> 01:08:00.360
I would go to Israel to live. It would be a place that I

932
01:08:00.679 --> 01:08:05.440
believe is consistent with the way human
beings ought to live in civilizes. I

933
01:08:05.519 --> 01:08:09.320
understand, I did. I understand
your points, and I didn't get it

934
01:08:09.440 --> 01:08:13.000
until this Athens drew some stuff.
Now I understand what you mean. But

935
01:08:13.119 --> 01:08:17.880
then you really are like a neocon
because Neokons really did care about the nature

936
01:08:17.960 --> 01:08:23.159
of the regime they were helping.
They did not want to be bigger help

937
01:08:23.680 --> 01:08:26.359
John. No. But but that's
the point is you want to help Israel

938
01:08:26.880 --> 01:08:31.079
because it is like a free Western
market democracy. You don't want to help

939
01:08:31.239 --> 01:08:34.840
Ukraine because, as you said,
the regime is just like Russia. You

940
01:08:34.920 --> 01:08:40.439
don't care about the strategy right like
which one is like war in our national

941
01:08:40.600 --> 01:08:46.359
They do care about the ideology of
national interest terms, national security interest terms.

942
01:08:46.640 --> 01:08:49.880
There are all sorts of second and
third order effects that follow from that.

943
01:08:50.159 --> 01:08:57.199
From my silly, oversimplified way of
expressing it in national security terms.

944
01:08:57.239 --> 01:09:02.760
There are in fact many many second
and third order effects that have a very

945
01:09:03.239 --> 01:09:09.880
significant impact on how this country is
able to govern, live in the world,

946
01:09:09.960 --> 01:09:13.399
and so on, and we don't
have time to get into it today.

947
01:09:13.520 --> 01:09:16.439
Yeah, well it was really interesting
conversation. Well, I want to

948
01:09:16.439 --> 01:09:18.880
put a pin on this point and
come back to it, John, because

949
01:09:18.920 --> 01:09:23.399
I do think that we need to
add in what I think Lucretian I do

950
01:09:23.520 --> 01:09:29.479
agree about, which is well from
our perspective. What is the defects of

951
01:09:29.520 --> 01:09:33.199
the neo cons and the way the
way you characterize them. I'll just stop

952
01:09:33.239 --> 01:09:36.199
there. I'm not going to say
efective. I'm just saying you, guys,

953
01:09:36.239 --> 01:09:42.119
actually we think it is defective.
See well, except that we certain

954
01:09:42.279 --> 01:09:45.039
very much more fundamental ways I think
we don't and that we need to try

955
01:09:45.039 --> 01:09:46.920
and explain to you and the listeners
and maybe vain in your case, but

956
01:09:47.119 --> 01:09:53.039
listeners. But okay, we got
to move out of here to Lucretia really

957
01:09:53.119 --> 01:09:57.319
quickly, Babylon B. I sent
Steve a whole bunch of stuff this week,

958
01:09:57.359 --> 01:10:00.359
and unfortunately we're not going to get
to and we didn't even just discuss

959
01:10:00.199 --> 01:10:08.159
elon Musk and his You know people
all over the world actually actually diverted one

960
01:10:08.239 --> 01:10:12.239
hundred thousand dollars of advertising to Twitter. That's a story for next time.

961
01:10:12.319 --> 01:10:15.439
But that that's been so great,
we don't but child grooming content on x

962
01:10:15.520 --> 01:10:20.640
reduced by eighty three percent after Disney
pulls ads. Okay, there's that one.

963
01:10:23.079 --> 01:10:30.600
Chinese state media proclaims Gavin Newsome winner
of debate. Or how about this

964
01:10:30.720 --> 01:10:34.760
one? There's two more on that. One nation in shock after Gavin Newsom

965
01:10:34.920 --> 01:10:45.880
murdered on live TV and Newsome sorry, Newsome Desanti's debate to be sponsored by

966
01:10:45.000 --> 01:10:50.520
you Haul. I have many more, but go ahead. It's your guys's

967
01:10:50.600 --> 01:10:54.079
turn. By the way, I
don't know if you don't have a camalism,

968
01:10:54.199 --> 01:10:56.640
John, because you and I have
both been traveling. There was one

969
01:10:56.680 --> 01:10:58.680
of a debate last night. I
was gonna say, I don't have a

970
01:10:58.760 --> 01:11:03.640
camalism, but I have a mention
of her in the debate De Santa's Newsom,

971
01:11:03.680 --> 01:11:09.439
which is that De Santislake many of
us is not really sure how to

972
01:11:09.560 --> 01:11:14.800
pronounce our current vice president's first name
until they hear Lucretia's pronunciation, and then

973
01:11:14.880 --> 01:11:21.000
they are schooled. So I think, actually I thought the Santis pronounced it

974
01:11:21.159 --> 01:11:27.560
much low way Lucretia did to which
you might called new sum snapback, that's

975
01:11:27.680 --> 01:11:33.560
madam, vice President to you.
I didn't even send that to you,

976
01:11:34.159 --> 01:11:36.880
John. I just thought to myself, that's what John should talk about to

977
01:11:40.239 --> 01:11:45.319
great minds and all that. All
right, John, I'm going that's mad

978
01:11:45.960 --> 01:11:51.640
that's my I'm gonna have my Lafreud
neat here while you start sending us out.

979
01:11:53.760 --> 01:11:57.800
Yeah. Actually I was. By
the way, listeners, Costco has

980
01:11:57.880 --> 01:12:00.479
some very good low prices on the
Freud right now, I mean shockingly low.

981
01:12:01.119 --> 01:12:08.079
Yeah. I bought that because it's
shockingly awful. Sorry. You know

982
01:12:08.159 --> 01:12:11.000
what. They also have really good
low price on GluN liver right now.

983
01:12:11.439 --> 01:12:16.319
Yeah, yeah, for like twenty
nine yeah, when all the other scotches

984
01:12:16.319 --> 01:12:21.840
are wildly overpriced. Anyway, as
we've just been discussing, always drink your

985
01:12:21.880 --> 01:12:29.039
whiskey, neat. Let's go Brandon
and Steve God save the Queen man.

986
01:13:00.680 --> 01:14:06.399
Many Hm Ricochet joined the conversation