Welcome to another episode of Art Discourse today and privileged to have a very special
guest, none other than doctor your Own Brook. Welcome your Own. Yeah,
it's going to be here. If you don't know your Own, it's
the chairman of the board of directors of the other institute. But more importantly
for this show, your Own, I think is one of the biggest proponents
of art, of proper art in our worlds. I don't I can't think
of many other public intellectuals that speak so much in his show public lectures and
panels about art and also giving us practical advice on how we can apply ore
to our own life, advice that I also took from him where I got
and printed my favorite paintings to hang in my house. So I hope we
all can learn from you today. So let's just jump right into it because
we don't have much time. So first of all, you're on I know
it's a difficult question, but what is art? But but but please describe
it in your words. We don't need too many difficult definitions. What is
art? I mean, definition is important, so it's it's important to have
a definition. But but artists basically, it's a it's an individual expressing his
most his deepest beliefs about the world, his deepest understanding of the world,
a deep understanding I belief that he might not even know he has, but
he might not even know he has, in a medium, in some kind
of medium. And the medium can be obviously, could be in color,
painting, in three dimensional three dimensionality, sculpture in a whole, in a
story, literature, in visual the moves, and music, cinema. I
mean, there's a lot of and and they might be new art forms we
don't even know about yet. Basically to stimulate in the viewer and an emotional
response to those fundamental, deeply grounded belief that the artist has. So art
is something that stimulates a response. It stimulates an emotional response, not in
everybody, but it in most people. Good art certainly does that in most
people. And it is it is that emotional response is ultimately driven by those
very fundamental ideas uh and views that the artist has manifest in his creation.
So it most profoundly saying art is about about ideas. It's about ideas and
also also values. Right, there's well, it's dangerous to say ideas because
ideas takes it to it to a particular level because you know, I rantoxic
in the definition of art, which is a selective recreation of reality based on
an artist metaphysical value judgment. Metaphysical value judgments are particular type of ideas that
particular types of values. And you know, for example that in modern day
today, for you know, artist viewed is almost exclusively political. Everything is
political. Every piece of art has some political meaning and political statement. But
that's exactly and that's exactly the opposite of It's exactly not the case. Real
art might have a political statement, but that's not it's crux, nuts done,
it's essence, and that's not the value it represents. What the value
represents is these very very basic ideas that we have about the world, the
metaphysical value judge, which is a hard concept to grasp, but these are
these are statements about the very nature of man, the very nature of reality,
and our view of that. Right, So it's a value. So
this is something that I, you know, the artist wants. If you
have a malevolent view of the universe, if you think life sucks and the
universe is going to collapse and all life on Earth will end in ten years
because of whatever AI or or a meteoroid, or climate change or whatever your
choice of catastrophe is. If that's what you're obsessed about, then that will
reflect in your art. Even if you do something that's pro capitalist and pro
technology and everything, it'll come through in the art. If it's good art.
The ultimate theme will be something that that reinforces that metaphysical view that you
have about nature and the world and life and whatever. You Whatever you're attempting
to do politically, let's say, defin capitalism, it won't. You won't
be able to pull it up because capitalism contradicts the very basic, this vade
basic basic assumption. So art recreates something in reality. It has to because
it's the only way in which people can understand it, and it art needs
to be understood. It can be just in the mind. I'm sure that
when Kandinsky is putting blotches of pain or dots of pain or whatever it is
on a canvas, it means something to him. I'm sure it means something,
right. It probably just an emotional outbust more than anything else. But
it's not understandable to anybody else. He's not communicating, and art is definitely
a form of communication, and in that it is communicating, it has to
be identifiable, and in order to be identifiable, it has to be recreating
something that is identified as a human experience. Now we'll get to music.
Music is it's hard to We don't really understand completely what it is the music
is we're creating, although Iran had some theories about that which I think,
which I think makes sense. But but every other art form it just has
to be within our experience. And blocks is of color. Yeah, I've
seen blocks of color, but it doesn't mean anything. It doesn't have any
significance, and it certainly it's not a reflective of any kind of metaphysical value
judgment. It's not a reflective of any kind of fundamental, basic idea conclusion
that you have come to about reality. But if we have something more simple,
like still life painting, for example, painting over flowers, what does
that mean? Well, I mean it depends on the the what is what
is actually being painted? Right? So you can you can put a vase
of flowers in a very dark set, the flowers can be half dead on
the way to dye. That would say something. You could make the painting
blotchy and blurry, and hot to exactly figure out, you know, really
an effort it takes to even see that there's flowers. They Well, you
could make it sharp and crisp and alive and full of light. That would
be something else. And I'm not saying one is better art than the other.
All of them aught, but they all reflect different metaphysical value judgments about
it. You could also just do flowers. Most still lives that I see
painted. You know they mean something, but it's just they're boring. How
do you That's another thing about aut It has to it has to interest you.
It has to want you to look at it. It has to want
you to stay looking at it. So it has to be interesting, So
there has to be something of interest in it. So to make flowers interesting
and to convey something is a challenge, but I think it's it's doable.
Again, the way you portray the flowers and the context in which the light
draw the drama lack of drama or whatever that light is a dramatic means is
going to determine what ideas of being reflected by the particular painting. I think
one interesting thing about painting, specifically because I write about painting, is some
works are so universal, like the one behind me, for example, everybody
has a specific feeling that he feels when he sees that, and I can
show you maybe later. There's a very interesting picture of this painting in the
museum where it's it's hanging and there's a group of students and you can see
how they are looking at that painting. Everyone he has his own face that
he's pulling, is pointing to these things, to that thing. So this
is also about communication and it touches us right when when we see something like
that, it really touches us. How do we explain that? Well?
I think I think the painting that is universal is going to be a painting
of a subject that people can relate to it. There has to be something
there that is reflective of some of the experiences that are more universal than other
experiences. If he was an astronaut, it would be, you know,
and he was looking at some thing in space, and you could create something
I'm sure just as impactful, but it would be it would be hard for
people to relate to because it wasn't something they've experienced. Nature is something we're
all experienced. Man alone in front of nature is something most of us have
experience, we know what that feels like. So it I think it gives
it a certain universality. And then of course it's a genius of the artist
to make it something interesting, right, because that also gives is it If
it's boring, if it's uninteresting, people are just gonna walk by it.
They're not going to stop and look. So in this painting, the contrast
between dark and light, it gives a drama that gives you, gives it
a silhouette almost is something that makes you stop and look. They all kinds
of, if you will, tricks of the trade, you know, ways
in which great artists know how to There's at least one pyramid there. There's
actually, you know, triangles are very powerful. Uh, you know,
geometry is in painting. There's there's at least two that you know, and
I haven't studied this painting, so this is the first time I'm looking at
it. There's the two right there, one obviously very you know, with
the figure in it so very dark, and in the front, and in
the mountain in the background, which is reflective of the same shape. Again,
it's interesting, right, there's perspective, there's something close, there's something
far so all of that other kind would add the figure, the figure himself,
we don't see his face is so we can imagine ourselves there as well.
Yes, yes, I mean I was just even without even talking about
that a theme or about you know, just just in terms of the the
way of painting a structure is going to determine whether you stop and gaze at
it and whether you don't. And so a lot of it's universe, but
a lot of it will says cultural. So for example, if you take
a if you take a Leonardo da Vincio, or you take a car a
vidual painting of a saint or some religious scene, and you stick it somewhere.
You don't put the sign call a vidual Leonardo da Vinci. You just
put it up on a wall. Someone today, Yeah, some people will
stop and look at it. I will immediately say that's either a Leonardo or
influenced by him. I'm not sure I identify the actual thing, but influenced
by a lot of people will stop and look at but a lot of people
just walk by it. If you'd put it up in the Renaissance, everybody
would have stopped and looked at because it was speaking into a theme and in
a medium and with symbolism that related to the culture, and which has made
what makes it universal and timeless is the fact that if you learn a little
bit about the context, you're blown away by it, right, you'll stop
and watch it. But most people don't. Some of most people will walk
by it without thinking twice about it, whereas in the Renaissance they would have
all stopped and they're all dimned and recognized it. And this is the thing
recognized it as a masterpiece because they were already attuned to, you know,
religious paintings, and this is different. And what makes it different. So
the universality of it is some of it's educational. Sometimes there are paintings out
there that are great paintings that should be universal, and people don't respond to
them because they don't have the information they need to know to respond to them.
They did in the past, because maybe it's a stoical context or something
like that. Particularly with painting, which is more. Painting is more.
There's more of a story in painting than the business sculpture, at least some
painting sculpture. There's no story in sculpture. Very there are a few sculptures
of stories but most sculptures, you know, the stories irrelevant with painting.
Often you need to know what's going on now, not here in the In
the painting, you are behind you. You don't need to know anything about
the story. A lot of portraits you don't need to know anything about the
story. But when they're multiple figures and they're clearly interacting with one another,
often the story it has some significance and it adds to your appreciation of an
artwork. So what do we have we have? It needs to Art needs
to communicate, It needs to be within reality. It also relates to our
culture. That affects how we react to it. It's and it's all because
of communication, right. You can't communicate if it's not in reality. You
can't communicate if you're not using tools that are culturally understood. So it really
is communicate. Captures a lot of that, and it needs to communicate.
But of course there's a lot of stuff out there that there's a lot of
art out there that communicates, but it's shallow and and and and doesn't have
any kind of deep meaning. It's it's or it's communication is so in your
face that there's no you look at it. Maybe it inspires you for five
minutes, and then every time you look at it afterwards you're board. So
I call that most of that is often illustration or just not very good art,
and it's it's just it's it's gimmicky, it's and and it doesn't it
doesn't capture you, and it doesn't keep your interest over the long run.
One of the things that iron Run talks about in their writings in The Romantic
Manifesto is the connection between art and epistemology and human cognition. She talks about
that we think in visual terms. When we get something that is concrete and
visual to us, it can reduce a wide array of abstractions. For example,
if we have we can imagine in our mind five elephants, but if
we were to imagine one hundred elephants, it will be impossible. But when
we see it in a painting, we can understand how that looks like.
So it's impossible to imagine a hundred elephants. I think you can imagine everything.
You can imagine a hundred elephants. Sure, through a visual you create
a visual in your mind. Of through the visual you needed, there's a
sension which is not a hundred. It's it's many, right, it's there's
not a hundred, it's many, but it's I mean, what I mean
is saying, is most of our most important none most all of our most
important ideas of really abstract. It's not about a hundred elephants. It's about
love, or it's about liberty, or it's about even more importantly, it's
about you know, the life is worth living, and the universe is norble,
and and a is a and you know things that are very very fundamental
and yet very very abstract. And and what what it's very odd to hold
that right. You hold it in your mind as concepts. You hold it
in your mind as propositions, and that is that is a lot of work.
Your mind is doing a lot of work and holding that and then in
then you have the whole proof or the whole justification of that proposition, justification
of that axiom, or justification of that value. All of that is is
conceptual. It's it's it's And what odd does is it takes all that and
it replaces it with a picture. So you know the concept of hero,
well, you replace that with a story. You replace that which is whi
which which you can you know you read about and and you can hold in
your mind as I don't know Ivanhoe. You know, I've got Ivanhoe in
my mind. I know hero, Yeah, I or or in the same
with Uh, I don't know the the clarity the clarity of of of of
the universe. The universe is is knowable, it's clear, it's identifiable.
Yeah, you can hold my mind. Uh. You know painting by Vermeo
where where everything is is clear and knowable and and uh and uh and and
reflecting back to you. So what what odd does is it? It is
it creates a condensation, a concrete for a a massive abstraction, right,
the role of the mind in human life. That's a massive abstraction. But
once you read out shrugged, then it's act let's talk. Okay, I
get it. It's it's it's it's it's all those characters and out shrug and
what they did. I get the role of the mind in in in human
life. Uh. And if I don't mind myself particular way in which it
manifests yourself, I can run through a particular character. Uh. And and
you know, if I need an image of a determined hero facing amazing odds,
I can think of a sculpture of David or something like that. So
there's it's a it's a quick condensation that allows us to hold these abstractions and
live with these abstractions without being overwhelmed by them. So it makes it,
makes it real, makes it real, It makes it real, but it
it it. It reinforces there. It reinforces what they mean to you,
whether the true or not. Art is not what's important. They reinforce what
they mean to you. They reinforce your view of them, and so it
reinforces that, and it it confirms it for you, not in the sense
of proving them because it doesn't prove them right in that sense. It doesn't
make it real, but it confirms it for you because it condenses kind of
whatever proof or whatever conviction you have around it in something concrete that you can
actually see. Okay, so let's move to another chapter in the Romantic Manifesto,
which deals with a sense of life. Sense of life is for me,
it's been I'm still trying. I think I'm still trying to figure it
out. And it plays a big role in art. So to my understanding
could be wrong. Applied to art. What an artist does with his sense
of life. He has specific things that he cares about more. He has
specific values, He has a specific style, specific ways in which he specific
approach to life. You know, he likes to have beautiful things around him,
or he likes to have ugly things around him. All of that manifests
into a canvas or piece of marble, and that is artists the manifestation of
that of his It's essentially an art is the artist himself. He's showing us
the most candid personal image of his own conscious I mean, it's it's it's
something like that, but it's look at sense of life is a is the
almost emotional, but it's it's it's a it's a particular state of consciousness that
you have. That that is underlize everything that you do and underlize your style,
the way you deal with the world, and the way uh you you
interact with the world out there, and the way in a sense, you
interact with yourself. It's the kind of the conclusion of given the values that
you've chosen, given the metaphysical values that you have, it's the kind of
personality and character that is the result of that. And it's an manifestation of
that. So it's not something that you consciously work on. It's something that
is the consequence of all the things that you might have consciously worked on or
not consciously worked on. And therefore it's it's it's a consequence of somewhat accident,
and to some that it is going to be a consequence of accident,
because a lot of it is a sense of life. A lot of it
is a consequence of things that we experience and conclusions we come to when we're
young, and we can change it, but it's not it's not easy.
And then what artist does is an artist in that he is put in that
he is painting based on his metaphysical value judgments. That is that what is
reflected in the art those metaphysical values that are molding and shaping a sense of
life. So has the art reflects his sense of life. The art is
an expression of the metaphysical value judgment which operationalize in a sense in in in
the sense of life, and every artwork has a particular sense of life.
You and the way you respond to an artwork of a based on your sense
of life, again, based on the conclusions you have come to about the
world and about the metaphysical value judgments. And yeah, that so it's the
interaction between your sense of life and the artist sense of life, which which
you get. What you get is the emotional response that you get. Is
it always the case that a walk of art represents the artist's sense of life
or it could be that it doesn't represent it. I think to some extent
or another, it always represents this in some question because I'm thinking like paintings
of someone like Adolf Fitler. I know he had very ugly but you know,
realistic, boring, banal paintings doesn't look like a painting by Adolf Fitler.
A guy was you know it was a monster? Yeah, but are
they not particularly good paintings? I mean that's the point. You know,
anybody can anybody can, anybody with a little bit of skill can paint something
on a canvas. And but to be meaningful, tot to, to to
really be substantive as a painting, it has to reflect a sense of life.
So not everything that everybody paints is a flection of sense of life.
Over if I if I scribble something in a piece of paper, it's not
a reflection of my sense of life. Partially to a reflection of fact,
I can't paint right, so you know, and I do think you can
say that, well, I don't think you can read anything into bad aught.
I don't think you can read a lot into bad art. Bad in
a sense of just boring, banal meaning it. Yeah, it's if somebody
goes to art school and they paint because the teacher told them to paint in
a particular way. He can't read anything into that of this sense of life.
Yeah, yeah, I see that. Okay, So so now let's
talk about the inherent selfishness of art. We consume art on our own,
almost unless we go to movies with someone. But when we experience a painting,
our experience with the painting is entirely our own. Also with the movie.
And you were talking in one of your panels with on Car about there's
a sense of duty that you have to go to a museum and see all
the all the artworks. And I, for example, when I go to
the museum, I skip all the I don't like the medieval art, for
example, so I go right into the type of art that I want.
But most people they have to go through the it's exhausting. So maybe you
can elaborate on there. Yeah, I mean, I think, I think
we all, you know, honest to be experienced. It's experience as a
you know, as as a personal it's a personal experience. And there's a
men's sell fish pleasure that one can get from experiencing great art. And you
know, particularly when you're new to art, it you know, it can
be over it can be overwhelming because you know, people talk about museum fatigue,
and the primary reason for museum fatigue is that all of this art is
impacting you, even if you don't know it's impacting you, it's it's it's
it's it's doing something to your subconscious it's doing something to your emotional state.
And when you're overloaded sense solely, when you've got so much going on,
you experienced so many things, you get fatigued. It's it's it's exhausting.
And you don't know why exactly, but but it's because you're walkings is exposed
to a lot. There's a lot of work going on in your head to
deal with all of this. So so you know, I I tell people
focus on the things that you love, Find the things that you love,
you know, and go straight there. But right as as you mature in
your art appreciation, or as you know more about art, or as you
know you know more about what you like or don't like, it makes a
lot of sense to try to understand and to expand the things that you like.
Right, So, for example, you know there's a lot of there's
a lot of art that you need context in or to fully appreciate, and
so you know, you might skip a lot of the Renaissance that's Jesus again
and again and again and again. But when you know more about what's going
on, when you know more about art history, when you know more about
the story that's being depicted, when you know more about the style of the
particular painter, then suddenly a lot more becomes interesting to you, and a
lot more becomes and then there are all kinds of other reasons you might be
interested. So I I drive my friends and my wife crazy because I often
go to the medieval sections and go look, because I you know, I
am actually interested in the way Jesus is depicted in the Dark Ages and the
Middle Ages and the Renaissance in the modern world because I find it historically interesting,
and and in different countries you see different expressions. So there's a different
way in which religious paintings are done in the Netherlands and in Italy and Spain,
they're just not very good painters, and you know, so it's interesting
to actually go and see this stuff. And whenever you see, you know,
often when you see a really good painting from that, particularly from early
on in Spain, it's almost always an Italian paint who came to Spain to
paint, because you know, later they have good you know, they have
Velasquez and but but but there's a lot of so trying to understand, you
know, like people, most people will walk by now the Da Vincian go
yeah, okay, you know, there's a joke around them. Mona Lisa.
Why does anybody go see the Mona Lisa? It doesn't you know.
But the Mona Lisa is a brilliant painting. It is a magnificent you know,
and it's a true masterpiece. But I'm not sure just a casual viewer
could look at it and see it's a masterpiece. You have to have some
background info, so over time it's worth expand. And plus, when we're
young, we often like paintings that we outgrow in a sense that they might
not be as complex, or they might not be as interesting, or we
might develop a finer aesthetic. So you've got to constantly learn and expand and
try to understand. It doesn't mean you want to expose yourself to a bad
art, but if the experts out there, if the artistorians are saying this
is a great painter, it's at least worth going to explore why they think.
I mean, there's some paint is I still don't get why considered great
painters. Goya and and Uh comes to mind, and there are a few
others. But I think it's valuable, suddenly pre twentieth century to at least
experiment with going to museums and doing different things in museums and looking at different
and why it's it's nice to live in a city that has a museum and
you can go there many times, so you don't you're not like, I'm
visiting in London, I have to see everything in the National Gallery tomorrow,
so I I But when I'm in London, I have no problem going in
the National Gallery and just going to see the five paintings that I know I
want to see. And then sometimes like a few years ago and I did
a show on this. I actually went and started with the Dark Ages and
just did the whole museum. I did every painting in the museum, and
it was fascinating to see the progression of art, like you got art history
and you got this, you know, and I know enough about art history
to be able to say what's going on in each period and what's happening.
So it was fun, It was it was It was a blast to do
that. So you can go different times and do different things at me in
different museums, and different museums are gonna be different. Some museums I don't
know. The other museum in London, the Tate, Tate Britain, Tate,
the Tate British, which is one of my favorite museums. But it's
I mean, it isn't It isn't right because one of the problems in the
Tate is that they have the good artwork, they all cram together, one
on top of the other, and it's like you can't appreciate it because there's
too much. Your eye is distracted, there's no mental focus. And they
do the golden stuff there too. Yeah, but you can ignore that,
that's easy. I'm much more concerned about the fact that the good stuff is
displayed in ways that it's hard to fully appreciate. So you know, different
visits you can focus on different layers and different you know, there's the stuff
way up in the ceiling and it's hard to even see. But but yes,
it's one of the museums I try to go to in London periodically,
and they also have some good visiting exhibits or temporary exits they have. They
have an unbelievable storage facility somewhere with some amazing paintings that they never remember.
I wanted to see a specific turner and they said it was in storage.
I remember that. Oh yeah, ninety five percent of everything they have is
in storage. Yeah, it's particularly the good stuff because they have they have
a bias against the good stuff. Crazy. So another thing I would suggest
myself listen to lectures some YouTube youtubes of museums. They have some really good
lectures by their local artist storians. For example, I listened to one from
the National Gallery in London about John Constable, who's always found very boring,
but when he started to really explain what he was about his childhood, it
became much more interesting to me. So I also like paintings. But yeah,
I still find the painting is boring. But but yes, but no,
there's a ton of lectures. Artist stylians are generally good. Again,
if they deal with pre twentieth century, they're typically good. They know what
they're talking about. It's always interesting. When I was in Rome, I
got somebody to give us a tour of the Carravadios and the different churches in
Rome, a private tour, and it was phenomenal because you can look at
a painting and you kind of get it. And I know Cavadua pretty well.
But actually are the what are the breakthroughs here? What's new, what's
challenging? Why did you do this? Way did you do that? Interwoven
into his whole life, which is which was a fascinating life on top of
it gives you a whole other dimension and appreciation for the artwork. So yeah,
definitely definitely try to take courses in art history and lectures on particular artists.
It's definitely worth it. But also no no rush. If if you
if you're still trying to figure out something specifically that you like, I think
it's okay not to have a rush about it. Yeah, so I want
to talk to you about a bit about heroes. Why do we need heroes
and why is it so central to art well, because I think heroism is
something that is definitely something that we need a competization for because it's something that
is often we're in our own lives, particularly in a grand scale, and
it's something that is for the most part there for an abstraction. We don't
have personal experiences necessarily with it. It's also something that's hard. It's not
easy to be a hero. It's hard to be a hero. So it's
an extent that you want to be heroic in your own life, you want
to pursue heroism, you know, you need to have some kind of inspiration
to get you through it because it's hard. So for example, having integrity
and you know which I think heroism is a sub branch of as a virtue.
You know, requires effort and requires focus and requires and to have a
model for that makes it makes it easier. It's also the case that god,
I was going to make a second point that it's slipped my mind.
So you know, heroes are people who overcome incredible obstacles in order to attain
a particular particular value or particular goal, and a lot of us have that.
Most people live bland on heroic lives, and most people's conception of the
hero is pretty bland and stupid. It's it's on a Schwarzenegger, you know,
or you know, it's it's a basically physical it's all about physical effort,
and it's all of physical courage, whereas the real courage is a courage
of values, a coverage of integrity, of a courage of sticking to your
your your chosen values. And so it's it's hot, and therefore we need
we need an image. Another thing about heroes is an inspirational you know,
heroes represent what we would like to be, what we would like to achieve,
what we would like to attain, and having that image is incredibly emotionally
powerful. It reaffirms us, It shows us that it's possible. Rand has
that quote. Yeah, definitely, it shows us what is possible, and
in that sense, it reflects to us what we are capable of, even
if we are never going to be in a situation with that particular form of
heroism is required. So let's talk about beauty. I know it's a it's
a big subject, but for me, it's of paramount importance trying to It's
an advice I think I took from you. I try to surround myself with
beauty wherever I am, also with what I'm wearing, with my house.
For example, now I made an historical move from andreid to iPhone. I
can I can now also do that And and for me it was eating my
iPhone gig. Yeah, everybody's staying that. So for me, I'm still
bewildered by that. It's so esthetic, it's so beautiful, and everything for
me is just it's it's improving a lot of things for me. So just
it's a small thing, but it shows what is it about beauty? Yeah,
I mean I think beauty is really really important. It's really crucial.
It's a it's a difficult topic because you know what they say, beauty is
an I have to beholder. Well not really. I mean there's some the
universal principles around this, and I think great designers understand this and know this.
And if you look even across cultures, there's certain things that are just
perceived as beautiful, but there is there is some extent, there's a there's
a lot of optionality and beauty. There are definitely differences in how people conceive
of what is beautiful, you know, and you can tell they by how
they live and what they choose to surround themselves with. They I off,
would go to people's homes and they think it's beautiful, and I just think
it's horrific. Part of it is second handedness, part of it is trying
to be like everybody else or impressing people. There's a lot of reasons why
people do what they do, but it's also people do have different perceptions of
beauty. Exactly why where that comes from. I don't know enough about you
know, what what the psychological elements to construct beauty are. But there's clearly
something about, at least for me, about symmetry, about clean lines,
and about and about space spaciousness. Uh, that that that I find beautiful.
I find particular kinds of furniture beautiful, particular kinds of architecture beautiful,
you know. So it's it's and other stuff I can't stand, right,
It's like but uh, and and again it's very contextual in a sense of
the culture. Right, So what I find beautiful today, if I had
been born in the eighteenth century, I probably would have a very different taste
right. So I hate eighteenth century architecture, I hate eighteenth century furniture,
and I don't understand antiques. I don't. I love the art and I
hate everything about it. Uh and uh, you know, and I think
that there's something clean and about the modern world that is reflect that should be
reflected in architecture and in furniture and things like that. But yeah, to
the extent that you have control over it, why not make the environment in
which you live esthetically pleasing so that you are inspired or you enjoy the space
in which you are living. The space in which you're living has there's meaning,
it has, it's important, it has a substance, and if you
can enjoy it because it's just, it's one more element to helping you enjoy
life more broadly and helping you be happy more broadly. So to the extent
that you have opinions about it, to the extent that it's important, a
particular thing is important to you, focus on it. I couldn't care less
what clothes I wore. Indeed, ideally I wouldn't wear clothes at all.
It's it's you know, so it's you know, I like to be you
know, it's my comfort is like, what is a magnitude more important to
me than how I look? So so I go for comforts. You have
to figure out your particular, your independent, particular hierarchy of values and figure
out what makes sense for you in terms of and and And that's also part
of how you relate to a space. Right. If you're uncomfortable, it's
going to affect you in all kinds of ways. So for me, wearing
a tie is like I can't be completely myself because I feel like somebody is
trying to strangle me. It's just a question of when they're going to hang
me from the nearest tree. But I get that it's symmetrical, you know,
But it's in that sense it's nice. So it's you have to figure
out what and way, And then of course when it comes to even your
environment, the space. You know, some people can afford small homes that
don't have a lot of space or they can't. They can afford whatever furniture
they can pick up any use. You know, I've been there, I've
done that, I've lived that life. But even then, you know,
the furniture that I we brought home for whatever used store, used furniture store,
was always I mean we look. If you look at the forty years
I've been married and the kind of furniture we've had in every single place,
you'll see a theme. There's definitely a theme to every software we've ever had.
There's a theme to kind of the way we set up our wounds.
There are themes that carry through the different periods. But that's me, right,
those are the things that are important to me. I would only add
that I think it's a false dichotomy between comfort and beauty, but I can
prove it to you later. So let us talk about the supply. I
haven't spoken to you about it, so maybe you don't have anything interesting to
say about it. But for me, yeah, that's what I thought.
So for me, it's a it's a big deal because I like nineteenth century
German paintings, so I go to for example, I was in Leipzig in
Germany last week and they had a very beautiful art museum. There a lot
of paintings about similar to this, about the greatness of nature, you know,
things like that. What do you think about that about German painting or
about the sublime as an idea in painting? I mean, I think the
sublime is is a yeah, I mean it's a it's a it's a fantastic
something to express in a painting. Whether nature is the only way you can
do it, I'm a little skeptical. I have to think about what the
sublime means. But it doesn't strike me as it requires beautiful nature when it
comes to painting paintings of nature. I prefer the Americans to the Germans.
They were taught in Germany. The American yeah, they learned their style,
but then they show what they chose in terms of their themes is grandeur and
and and drama. That I think they think that, you know, beer
studd and people like that achieve these magnificent, magnificent effects. But what is
the sublime. I don't know what the sublime is exactly. I mean,
it's it's us really about God, the notion that there's something greater than man.
In that sense, it's a negative idea, but it also I think,
but I don't think it has to be greater than man. It's just
that there's that there's a grand year to the world, that there's a grand
year to man and tower the world and uh, and that you know,
we can and have the potential to achieve that kind of grande that it's that
it's attainable. I think that's that's what a rational view of sublime would be.
And I think a lot of paintings, a lot of the great paintings,
have that it. You know, the theme has to be something that
transcends a particular story or a particular narrative. It has to be something grander
and bigger than that. I certainly think, although I don't know how you
would prove this or you would show this, that a lot of music is
definitely reflective of this year there for example. Sometimes yeah, but I think
a lot of music, I think a lot of the romantic music achieves that.
You know, when when when you know, there's a sort of sublime.
So I don't think it necessitates to God, but it doesn't necessitate kind
of the sense of grandeur of the world, of nature and of oneself.
So now let's move to more personal issues. I wanted to ask you you
yourself. You you're a PhD in finance, You talk about economics, feel
about politics about I don't know what does that have to do with art?
Nothing. I mean, art is not something that so I think everybody should
be interested in on. So I don't consider myself having any kind of special
anything with regard to art. I just have identified that it's something everybody should
should take a serious interest in, and I do. I think a lot
of other people don't or don't identify it or don't I'm not known publicly to
have identified it, but I don't think I'm unique in any regard. I
think everybody should have an interest. Doesn't matter what you do, as long
as we all hold abstract concept as long as we're all human. Really,
as long as we're all human, art is a need. I'm then describes
it as a need. It's like food. It's food for the soul,
it's food for your character, it's food for your mind. So I think
everybody should be engaged in it and should be interested in it. I talk
about art because I like it, and because nobody else seems to not so
much because I feel like I'm qualified to talk about it, because I'm probably
not, but it's or less qualified than many others. I wish more people
were talking about it. There's so much to say, and there's so much
to do, and there's so much to think about it, and there's so
much to experience of it. You know, I've taken it seriously for years.
So I've read books, I've listened to courses. I've traveled all of
the world going to art museums, I've taken tours. So I've just experienced
a lot of it. So i have a lot of experience. But beyond
that, I'm not an artist. I can't paint, I can't sculpt,
I can't write music I have. I'm completely incompetent when it comes to any
art form in terms of production. So I'm stuck with liking and and learning
as much as I can about it, and that's what I've done. I've
done that for when did I start, Probably, you know, forty two,
forty forty one, forty two years ago. Let's talk about music.
Well, I know it's also a big deal for you myself because I don't
know much about music. There are some works that I really like. I
listened to a lot of music, but I don't know. I don't know
much beyond that. So I've been about music and also have some tips on
how to start listening to classical music. Yes, again, I don't know
anything about music. I can't read sheet music, I don't know what a
chord is. I don't, you know, just the basics. I do
not know, right, I know what I like, and I know I
know, I know, reasonable, amma. But the history of music,
because I read some books about the history of music, which I found fascinating.
Again, I find it interesting to connect the history of music with history.
I think those relationships between the history of art and history, what's going
on in the world at the time, it's fascinating. So I find that
all interesting, so I read about it. I think music is, of
all the art forms, the one that can evoke the strongest emotions and can
evoke them and evokes them directly. It doesn't require any kind of mental effort.
It requires some focus, particularly when you're talking about classical music. It
requires some focus, but focus exclusively on the music, not an antimpting it,
not understanding it, not what happened before, not what happens after,
but just being in the moment and really really experiencing it. And I think
that's what's really really necessary to have a deep, under deep appreciation of music.
Most popular music is not intended is intended for instant gratification. It's it's
candy, it's it's sugar coated candy and some of its sugar coated poison.
It's just there to be danced too. It's there to be listened to and
tap your foot, and some of it's great, but it's there to be
experienced in the moment, and most of it to forgotten. Is there are
some great pieces of kind of what you call contemporary music, contemporary to what
period, but contemporary too different periods in the twentieth century. But once everybody
figured out that everybody likes a beat and people are willing to spend a lot
of money on being entertained by having a beat, then forget about it.
You know, all you get is a beat. So modern modern popular music
is just a beat. There's there's almost nothing there. There's no complexity,
there's no sublime, there's no nothing interesting. You hear a song once,
it could be like ten other songs. They all follow the same formula.
That gets that in some gratification. It's like the fact that if you stick
sugar in every piece of food, I mean a lot of food, people
will gravitate towards sugar because sugar is just too it's it's it's addictive in a
sense, it's not really addictive, but it's addictive in a sense. Addiction.
The use of the term addiction, of the of addiction is blown up.
I mean, but yeah, it's it's too gratifying to let go of
and you lose the real, the real depth and emotion that music has.
And again, a beat and a popular music can get you to feel good
in the moment, but it doesn't have any lasting effect. It doesn't affect
your psychopismology, doesn't affect your emotional state, it doesn't affect your sense of
life. It's just it's just Classico music as a real can have a really
profound impact on you, and it can really evoke powerful emotions in you.
It can. It can also teach you a lot about your own sense of
life and and about your own what you like and what you don't, your
own values. Uh. Class ga music does. It requires work because it
requires focus, and focus is something that in modern society attention span. Another
reason why music is so appealing popular music is because it doesn't require attention,
and we have we've been again trained to have very very very short attention spans.
You can blame iPhones if you want, but television, lots of things
cause us to have very very short attention s plans and everything has to be
visual. It's not visual, we lose interests. And music videos were big
once upon a time because it was you can focus on the music alone,
yet I actually see something because the classico music has to have you know,
has the potential for this, but it does require real effort, and it
requires real focus, and it requires real attention. It requires being in the
moment without letting your mind drift and just experiencing something not for one or two
or three minutes, but for twenty minutes, for an hour, and and
and letting that experience overwhelm you. And that's how you get to the sublime.
You get to the sublime by by really immersing yourself in it. You
know, I hate when classico music is used as background music because it's not
something to be experienced in the background. That's that's contemporary music. Even jazz,
I think could be used for that. But classgow music needs to be
really you need to devote time and you need to devote effort to it.
But the rewards are stunning when you do that. And then and then again
with music, the more you listen to, the more you learn. The
more you can listen to, you can you know. You can start out
by finding I don't know, Valganer very very difficult to listen to, but
you can train yourself, and by listening to other composers, ultimately it makes
Valkaner easier. You can find you can start out by listening to Bach and
thinking blurs, there's nothing there. But as you learn more about music,
you find that you can appreciate Bach. I don't think he'll ever rise the
level of Beethoven, but you can appreciate him. The same with the same
with a lot of the great composers. Again, if you read a history
of if you read an history of music, the people who identified as great
composers are probably great composers. There's probably something there that makes them great composers
esthetically. So whether you want to figure it out or not is up to
you, but it's it's there's value in figuring it out why they're considered great.
It expands you your breath in terms of the music, even if you
never fully enjoy them. The only period in which I think they started.
Ends of music are too dismissive. And this is true of painting and sculpture.
As well, is the nineteenth century, where there were so many great
composers, so many great painters, so many great sculptors, that it's easy
just to focus on a few names and dismiss everybody else, even though the
second third tier sculptors and painters were better than first tier sculptures and painters and
maybe any other era. So the nineteenth century is just there's so much.
There's so much literature, there's so much painting, there's so much music,
there's so much art. Generally, it's just this explosion of great arts.
And actually there's a great lecture there about connecting that to capitalism and the enlightenments
and there maybe I'll do that one day. That's a good idea. I
have a suggestion, by the way, if somebody is interested to spand is
music playlist what I do. For example, there's for example, I like
rothemine Off second piano Concerto. I go to chat GPT and I tell him
I love rothmin Off second piano Concerto. Recommend me other works that could be
similar to that, and it gives you a whole list of great works.
So it's not hard in classic because there's so much there is it's difficult to
pick from so for so much it makes it not anyway, you know,
there's so much it's it's but yeah, I mean, if you can use
chat GPT, that's great, but there really is. I mean, I'm
still discovering pieces I don't know that are beautiful. And yeah, there's there's
just and and the other thing about music, but like painting and sculpture is
the really good stuff you can listen to again and again and again and again
and it doesn't get It never gets born, never gets whereas most pop songs,
even the best, Like I can listen to Pink Foid, I love
Pink Foid, Okay, I can listen to an album once and then I
probably have to wait three years before I listen to it again. Like it's
not something that I want to listen to once one, But you put on
Beatovin and I'm into it no matter when, right, and it doesn't it
doesn't change that fact. So and if you get to the really mediocre popular
music once is too much. So let's end with your favorite paintings. One
of your favorite paintings and one of your have a lot of favorite paintings.
I don't have strong favorites. I have a lot of favorite paintings. I
mean, I mean the painting right back there. The the Astronomer by Vermeer
is one of my favorites, and as is the even more and I like
even better as the Geographer, which is harder to find. I mean,
this is one of my favorite paintings among many. I was looking for Frederick
Clayton. This is Dick Layton. It's a painter's honeymoon. It's just I
think it's a The whole organization of the painting is to focus you on a
triangle. Again, there's always triangles and great paintings, right, And that
is their their heads, their faces linked together, drawing you down to their
hands linked together, drawing you to his hand painting. I mean, he
is, he is a painting, But she is completely in on on this
career choice, right. She's not She's not fighting him over his choice to
be a painter. She's completely committed. It's it's clearly reflective of of of
of you know, of a real bond between them, of real love.
Who expression is an expression of interest. His expression is of a certain intensity
that comes from being a painter. This scene is a beautiful scene it's beautifully
painted, it's shop it's in focus. But but you know that doesn't mean
it's flat in the sense that your eye will go anyway. Your eye goes
where the paint and wants you to go. It goes to to her face.
Looking at the drawing. If you look at the whey that where does
the light shine. The light shines on her face, on their hands together,
and on and on his hand drawing that and that again is a triangle
there the garment. If you look at her dress and the light and the
folds and the dress all moving your eye upwards towards her face and her head.
It's it's driving, it's driving their eye, eye up. So a
good painting always has the artist has always thought about where your eye is gonna
go, and where he wants your eye to go, and what are the
details he wants you to capture. Whether you're capturing it consciously is subconsciously.
Most people just look at this painting. They're not seeing anything, you know,
beyond wow. I mean, look at that. That that's beautiful.
But you must have got a place, right, You've got a sense of
a place. There's a not an emphasis on three dimensionality, but there's three
dimensionality here. Uh, you've got you've got a sense of a rich kind
of background of you know, a beautiful location wherever this is happening. That
tree in the background with with fruits, and that that golden wall in the
back. But the real emphasis is on them, is on the couple and
and what painting means to them. There's a real warm fere with the color
palette. It's really really warm. Yes, yes, it's very it's it's
a very what do you call it, there's a term. But the color
palette is all the same. It's all brown, right, I mean everything
here is a shade of brown. Monochromatic. What's that monochromatic? You want
this chromatic? Thank you? It's very monochrome attic, and the whole painting
is monochromatic. There's there's gold, but even the gold is shaded towards brown.
Even the food is shaded towards a brownish color. So it's it's very
monochromatic. And it's very difficult to pull off a good painting with monochromatic because
it's it often becomes boring, it's often uninteresting. But I think that their
theme here and the use of light here is very powerful. You'll notice the
light is all coming in from the top left hand corner, and and and
and and going down. No for the top right, sorry, top to
the right, Yeah, I think that, like there's a window light left
as well. Yes. Now for the sculpture, yeah, I mean this
is a good one on the issue of heroism. This is at the louver.
This is a sculpture of Spotocus. But nobody has to tell you it's
Spotocus. You know, this is somebody who's just broken the chains, right
if you if you look at his right he's holding a sword, but on
his wrists is the remnants of a chain. In his left hand he is
actually holding what is left of the chain. So he's already freed himself.
He's got the sword, he's fighting back. He's got this amazing pose of
confidence and determination and readiness for action, which I like a lot in painting.
I mean, yes, I think if you think heroism, here's heroism.
Here's a He is a man who's slave, enslaved and rebelled against it
and stood up to his enslavers and ultimately gets killed. But who you know,
But that's in the distant futures. Who kiss and it's not in right.
The outcome is not in the sculpture. I like the I'm thinking of
the guys looking at he's going to kick his ass like he's going to concrete.
Yeah, and there's a lot there's a little bit of similarity here to
Michael Anzels David in terms of the look and the angle of the head.
There's there's actually another copy of this they just recently discovered, is in another
museum. I think in fans it's breath taking. For me, it's I
still haven't gotten into sculpture, so it's always interesting to see new examples.
I wasn't aware of this one. Yeah. And and and the thing about
sculptures, I think Leonard once said the sculpture should always be nude. We
should we should don't put clothes on sculpture because it's centralized. It's it's very
very essentialized. There's only so much you can convey in sculptures that it's all
very condensed into a figure. Okay, so we have I think we have
come to our conclusion. What is our call to action to the viewers,
besides becoming a your own Brook Show member, go experience art, Go go
out there and visit museums, put on stream up, put it on your
stream some classical music. But don't do it while riding a bus and while
running around. I've often recommended, you know, turn off the lights,
light down on the floor, blast the music to eleven and and put on
Beetoven's fourth Piano Concerto and and let it take over. They're on Brooke.
It's been a pleasure. Thank you very much. This was fun. Thanks you