WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.200 --> 00:00:09.480 Well, Hello, hello everybody, and welcome back to another exciting episode of 2 00:00:09.679 --> 00:00:14.679 JavaScript Jabber today on Well Today, on our show, we have We've got 3 00:00:14.720 --> 00:00:18.519 your hostess with the most us that's me and Joe Neil for now Yo yo 4 00:00:18.559 --> 00:00:21.239 yo, coming at you live and all that stuff. And then we've got 5 00:00:21.280 --> 00:00:30.480 Steve Yo what up from Portland? And then we have our guest today, 6 00:00:30.679 --> 00:00:40.119 Kelvin. Hey, how you doing? Ye? All right, so let's 7 00:00:40.479 --> 00:00:46.079 jump right into it. Who are you? What makes you famous? Or 8 00:00:46.320 --> 00:00:48.560 if not, what makes you famous? What do you want to be famous 9 00:00:48.600 --> 00:00:57.560 for? Okay? Thanks? AJ? So I'm Covin. I am the 10 00:00:57.719 --> 00:01:03.439 lead Mintino Sims Jiz, and I'm currently working on the borrowing jervascript stack. 11 00:01:03.400 --> 00:01:08.239 Hopefully it's the name is not a turner for most people. I him to 12 00:01:08.400 --> 00:01:14.519 make it a go to stack for building full stack web applications in JavaScript. 13 00:01:15.239 --> 00:01:19.519 So how long have you been maintainer of sales? Did you start it? 14 00:01:19.599 --> 00:01:25.400 No? Not at all. So sales was created by Mike McNeill. I 15 00:01:25.439 --> 00:01:30.079 became the maintenance of sales June last year. Cool? Why did it change 16 00:01:30.120 --> 00:01:37.159 hands? Okay? So Mike is still the BDFL you know, and but 17 00:01:37.319 --> 00:01:42.760 currently we have his hands full with being the CEO of Fleet Device Management to 18 00:01:42.840 --> 00:01:52.799 fleet Security and endpoints company based on squad. So there's your help. You 19 00:01:52.879 --> 00:02:00.079 get visibilities into your computers and all the stuff. So the sales frame of 20 00:02:00.200 --> 00:02:05.959 the more hands on midness, which is where I'm come in to like lead 21 00:02:07.159 --> 00:02:12.759 the framework. Yeah okay, And for those that are not familiar, BDFL 22 00:02:13.000 --> 00:02:16.360 is Benevolent Dictator for life, So any the person who gets to call the 23 00:02:16.400 --> 00:02:23.280 shots, all right, and then what is boring JAS because that kind of 24 00:02:23.360 --> 00:02:30.400 sounds like a generic term like vanilla JS. Yeah yeah, so the full 25 00:02:30.560 --> 00:02:36.800 okay, go ahead, Yeah for sure. So the fool it's it's kind 26 00:02:36.800 --> 00:02:39.919 of like a mouthful. So it's called the ball in JavaScript stack and it's 27 00:02:40.120 --> 00:02:47.360 my own. Like, I just think that in the gymascript space we sort 28 00:02:47.360 --> 00:02:53.159 of have a lot of excitements when it comes to building full start as apps. 29 00:02:53.479 --> 00:03:00.400 There's so much going on boats in terms of actually putting everything together is 30 00:03:00.439 --> 00:03:05.319 sort of like not complete. So the boring stack was started I think back 31 00:03:05.360 --> 00:03:08.560 in twenty twenty where I was like, you know, the old promise or 32 00:03:08.560 --> 00:03:13.159 the premise of no jars was that we can build wh JavaScript across the stack, 33 00:03:13.400 --> 00:03:15.000 right, but what we have today. Most times when we want to 34 00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:19.639 build single page applications, you have like a single page app which is like 35 00:03:19.639 --> 00:03:23.039 a like his own ripor and everything. Then if you if you're going to 36 00:03:23.080 --> 00:03:27.319 do anything sub scated, you're gonna leave like an API. So that's two 37 00:03:27.439 --> 00:03:30.719 separate Javaski apps that are in separate ritos. And of course there's a lot 38 00:03:30.759 --> 00:03:35.520 of things. You have double routing where you have to route on your API 39 00:03:35.840 --> 00:03:40.319 routes then your client side routing, and that's just scratching the surface, right, 40 00:03:40.800 --> 00:03:44.719 So I wanted something where I could piece all this together still have a 41 00:03:44.759 --> 00:03:50.360 single page application, but we did more server centric flow, right, so 42 00:03:50.439 --> 00:03:54.879 that means no more loading spinners, no more double routing and other things I 43 00:03:55.000 --> 00:04:00.680 saw for us. So that was it, Like that was the old and 44 00:04:00.719 --> 00:04:04.919 I get to use it in the old platform. And then I figured out, 45 00:04:05.039 --> 00:04:09.680 you know what. At first I called it like the vit stack, 46 00:04:09.759 --> 00:04:15.439 which is view innationial tail with that sales, but it supports react and filt 47 00:04:15.479 --> 00:04:17.639 so that's this reads and see he's just does me any sense? To me? 48 00:04:17.879 --> 00:04:20.680 I was like, you know what, let's call it what it is, 49 00:04:20.720 --> 00:04:27.120 which is like it's not exciting, it's just boring, and it gets 50 00:04:27.120 --> 00:04:31.680 to move a really quickly, so hence the name. I got to say, 51 00:04:31.720 --> 00:04:38.600 you're preaching at the choir because I'm looking at the repo. And I 52 00:04:38.639 --> 00:04:44.480 have been preaching about inertia, Tailwind and View for years, both here and 53 00:04:44.600 --> 00:04:46.399 when I was doing the Views on View podcast, because I have talked to 54 00:04:47.399 --> 00:04:54.639 Jonathan Renick, the creator of Inertia, twice on this podcast, and I 55 00:04:54.639 --> 00:05:00.480 have been using inertia in Tailwind and View for an app that I've been writing 56 00:05:00.480 --> 00:05:05.000 for last year and for other stuff. The difference between what you're using what 57 00:05:05.079 --> 00:05:11.600 I normally use is I use LERAVL on the back end. Yeah, but 58 00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:15.639 but yeah, this this stack is the bomb, and I understand what you're 59 00:05:15.639 --> 00:05:20.360 talking about double routing. It makes it really nice because Murcia handles all that 60 00:05:20.399 --> 00:05:25.720 and you only have to define your route once on the back end and everything 61 00:05:25.759 --> 00:05:30.639 gets to pass through those. So yeah, it's it's I don't I mean, 62 00:05:30.680 --> 00:05:34.519 I'll take don't. I don't know if I would necessarily coin this as 63 00:05:34.519 --> 00:05:42.920 its own separate stack simply because the point of inertia is the plug and player 64 00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:46.879 back in with your front end. And I know initially when I had first 65 00:05:46.879 --> 00:05:51.959 talked to Jonathan. Node was not an officially poor supported back end supported by 66 00:05:51.959 --> 00:05:59.839 Inertia, but the community had come up with plug ins to use no, 67 00:06:00.439 --> 00:06:04.680 so I know, like I think Ruby and Lara Bell were the first back 68 00:06:04.759 --> 00:06:09.120 end that were supported by a nurse out of the box, along with sales 69 00:06:09.319 --> 00:06:15.160 excuse me with spelt you and React. So walk us through the stack. 70 00:06:15.240 --> 00:06:21.639 What are the pieces and what how long have they been around and what's the 71 00:06:21.680 --> 00:06:30.560 goal of each? Yeah, for sure. So one thing I like about 72 00:06:30.560 --> 00:06:36.040 the stack really is that I kind of see it as basin a lot of 73 00:06:36.079 --> 00:06:43.959 cool technologies at the stable and most bowing versions, for example, we all 74 00:06:44.199 --> 00:06:48.199 like React for j exs, right, but most of the time when you 75 00:06:48.240 --> 00:06:51.360 get to like you full stack, okay, I don't really use it that 76 00:06:51.439 --> 00:06:59.439 you speak, But the void is at the components level, React to stable 77 00:06:59.759 --> 00:07:01.439 right, and it's it's really good for what it does. Stepway one of 78 00:07:01.600 --> 00:07:05.839 layer stuff like routing and all the metal frames, it just gets out of 79 00:07:05.879 --> 00:07:11.319 hand. So my thought process was, you know what legs take the components, 80 00:07:11.319 --> 00:07:15.879 which is made possible by inertia, right, and just let you build 81 00:07:15.920 --> 00:07:20.639 your pages with reacts components which are just as view which is a single fire 82 00:07:20.680 --> 00:07:27.040 component. Then it speilts own stuff and let us be the pages and a 83 00:07:27.160 --> 00:07:31.000 more selver centric web framework like sales which is really old. Serss like what 84 00:07:31.720 --> 00:07:36.000 twelve years or more now, which is really old, and just take the 85 00:07:36.040 --> 00:07:42.360 stable versions of all the step and of course stalings which makes starting super good 86 00:07:43.279 --> 00:07:49.600 and just give you an holistic mono reple like a monolith where you just build 87 00:07:50.079 --> 00:07:56.800 full start JavaScript applications. So there's Sales which is going to control everything as 88 00:07:56.959 --> 00:08:05.240 the web framework. There's Inertia which this is your view spelled or read components 89 00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:09.319 together with sales. So why I think is it makes sense to make it 90 00:08:09.319 --> 00:08:15.920 its own stack because this is just like the earliest version of it. The 91 00:08:16.040 --> 00:08:22.920 vision is to get it in social way that for you to build the pages 92 00:08:22.079 --> 00:08:26.920 the way your users are going to consumments. For example, I don't think 93 00:08:26.120 --> 00:08:33.240 your marketing page should be a single page application because you literally don't have any 94 00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:37.240 drama script that should run there. So with this stack, you should be 95 00:08:37.279 --> 00:08:43.840 able to use your jeccess and still just ship or send back HTML at the 96 00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:46.759 end of the day or like what you do when you have a single page 97 00:08:46.759 --> 00:08:52.000 application with SSR, Like there's no need for SSL in your marketing page. 98 00:08:52.080 --> 00:08:58.000 Really, so my thought process is led to dev use the DSL, which 99 00:08:58.039 --> 00:09:05.559 is the which is the views templates, to use components felled or reacts, 100 00:09:05.000 --> 00:09:11.080 and just give them the option to build either apps or websites. But's all 101 00:09:11.120 --> 00:09:18.200 in the same code base. You say, don't say no to chasing JavaScript 102 00:09:18.200 --> 00:09:26.159 trends, Yes, and then you've got view react and Felter supported tailwind, 103 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:31.879 et cetera. So what do you mean by say no to chasing JavaScript trends 104 00:09:33.399 --> 00:09:39.759 when I mean those seem kind of trendy all those things. Yeah, not 105 00:09:39.919 --> 00:09:45.559 really, So like I said, we know everything happening in the JS for 106 00:09:45.759 --> 00:09:50.440 for example, now when we have things with RSC, you know the app 107 00:09:50.480 --> 00:09:54.559 rout and the next years or the pages router whether they're just all these complexities 108 00:09:54.559 --> 00:09:58.840 that you have to learn in order to just chip your rectangles to use us 109 00:09:58.840 --> 00:10:03.039 to do stuff with. What I'm saying is that you don't really need to 110 00:10:03.039 --> 00:10:07.159 go all that trend All your need is the component, which is the basic 111 00:10:07.080 --> 00:10:13.080 cell of all this from and framework. Leave the whole state management jas because 112 00:10:13.240 --> 00:10:16.000 the borings that you don't need the state management at all. But you don't 113 00:10:16.039 --> 00:10:20.360 need to know sustained or whatever you use for state management. Neither those trendy, 114 00:10:20.799 --> 00:10:26.960 because there's some more stable and borrowing to do things that actually gets you 115 00:10:26.039 --> 00:10:31.960 moving really really quickly. So those are the trends. The frameworks, they're 116 00:10:31.000 --> 00:10:35.799 really boring. At the components level, there's not so much you could do 117 00:10:35.879 --> 00:10:39.600 with the excess than just write it. But when you start adding all the 118 00:10:39.720 --> 00:10:43.120 trends on top of it, that's where you just get out of hands. 119 00:10:43.120 --> 00:10:48.279 And we've seen applications that are just terrible for that use cases. Yeah, 120 00:10:48.840 --> 00:10:52.559 all right, I got that. So you mentioned state management. There's no 121 00:10:52.600 --> 00:10:56.279 need for state management. I'm curious to see why that is or why you 122 00:10:56.279 --> 00:11:01.559 say, because I have found niche where yes, it is still important, 123 00:11:01.559 --> 00:11:05.600 but I'm curious to see why you say it's not even needed with the stack. 124 00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:11.919 Yeah, definitely, So most times why you needed like a state manager, 125 00:11:13.200 --> 00:11:18.919 especially when you're building a single payer applications the normal way, you often 126 00:11:18.120 --> 00:11:24.559 want to sink states across your app right, because the front that is away 127 00:11:24.559 --> 00:11:28.039 from the back end. But with the star the owner sort of truth is 128 00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:33.799 the state from the back end. But we can be cashed of course to 129 00:11:33.960 --> 00:11:37.759 make it really fast, so there will be no needs. So like the 130 00:11:37.759 --> 00:11:41.039 way I've been building ups and I've even't seen this even I think Remix also 131 00:11:41.080 --> 00:11:45.639 have this as well. Where there's no state management, you don't need any 132 00:11:45.679 --> 00:11:48.879 state management. So I'm not talking about use states. Yeah, I'm talking 133 00:11:48.879 --> 00:11:54.799 about state management libraries wife like the sour stand. Like in View with Opinia, 134 00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:58.720 you don't really need to synchronize states in the front end because again it's 135 00:12:00.159 --> 00:12:03.320 centric. So all this did come from you back data and it just gets 136 00:12:03.960 --> 00:12:11.480 sent to your front that that's prop shid zta, all facilitied by Yeah, 137 00:12:11.480 --> 00:12:16.679 Okay, So the basically the premise that you're saying is is that I mean, 138 00:12:16.480 --> 00:12:20.080 is that because I don't know if it's because of a speed issue, 139 00:12:20.159 --> 00:12:22.080 because of the sort of source of truth, you don't need the state management. 140 00:12:22.120 --> 00:12:26.480 And I ran into a case using inertia with you with Lara Belle, 141 00:12:26.480 --> 00:12:31.840 where I had I was dealing with the calendar app and because of the hierarchy 142 00:12:31.080 --> 00:12:39.639 of of components without state management, I would have been having to either go 143 00:12:39.759 --> 00:12:45.320 back and forth to my server or pass props from A to B to C 144 00:12:45.519 --> 00:12:52.879 to D. Granted with View three, you can use inject yes inside the 145 00:12:52.919 --> 00:12:58.960 components whether it called provide inject I think you can do that. But for 146 00:12:58.200 --> 00:13:03.440 Jonathan, state management isn't prohibited. You can't use it if you want to, 147 00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:07.000 and I think there probably are going to be some cases where state management 148 00:13:07.080 --> 00:13:09.159 needed, But to your point, yeah, you don't need it to the 149 00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:13.919 extent, yeah you will where you're just using arrest API from the front in 150 00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:16.879 the back end. Now, I think we should probably do for those that 151 00:13:18.039 --> 00:13:20.559 might not be as similiar with inertia as you and I are, is to 152 00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:26.000 explain how exactly inertia is working and what it's how it's working behind the scenes 153 00:13:26.559 --> 00:13:31.039 that invalidates the need for state management. Yeah, definitely, thank you, 154 00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:39.519 Steve. So the old promise of inertia is that it's acts like erupting library 155 00:13:41.000 --> 00:13:48.679 rights sols of like view route or the or anyone using reacting language. Right, 156 00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:52.399 but it's kind of interesting to do it, Walks. So two things 157 00:13:52.440 --> 00:14:00.799 you have to know. It has a protocol which is like a page So 158 00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:05.799 there's a page object that initial expects to get sent from the back end, 159 00:14:07.480 --> 00:14:11.559 and that page object has the name of the components and prop which would be 160 00:14:11.639 --> 00:14:16.519 like the proper you want to pass to your components. So For example, 161 00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:20.960 if on the page we have like an initial link, if you click on 162 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:26.879 that link, Initia is going to intercept that click so that that you don't 163 00:14:26.919 --> 00:14:31.879 make a full page request, but it's going to send an AGEAX requests to 164 00:14:31.960 --> 00:14:35.320 get that page object. So once you get the page object, it uses 165 00:14:35.399 --> 00:14:41.960 the name of the component to find the component in like maybe if a pages 166 00:14:41.039 --> 00:14:48.559 slash in the extra says, and then swap the current page with that page 167 00:14:48.279 --> 00:14:54.120 as well as passing the problems that the page needs just like that. Okay, 168 00:14:54.440 --> 00:14:58.440 So doing so you find that you don't need like a loading spinal because 169 00:14:58.440 --> 00:15:00.679 as soon as you click the link, it goes to the back end. 170 00:15:00.799 --> 00:15:05.559 I guess the pitches and also the prop so it's it comes with the data 171 00:15:05.639 --> 00:15:09.159 it needs, so you don't have to make an extra request to get the 172 00:15:09.279 --> 00:15:13.399 data. So that's at the high level, that's like, well it works, 173 00:15:13.519 --> 00:15:16.200 and of course the headers you have to send we're is all going to 174 00:15:16.279 --> 00:15:20.759 be taken care of by the sem aside adapter that you're using. So I 175 00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:26.279 wrote the one for sales, so there's there's also official one for laville and 176 00:15:26.720 --> 00:15:31.679 of course rails. That's basically what it's doing. Exist the best way I've 177 00:15:31.679 --> 00:15:37.840 heard it put is that it's hijacking the request from the browser and instead of 178 00:15:37.919 --> 00:15:41.080 doing a full page reload, it's just passing the data back and forth so 179 00:15:41.159 --> 00:15:46.440 that your browser isn't doing a full load. And so when you're writing your 180 00:15:46.519 --> 00:15:52.279 back end, no rails, what have you, you say okay, in 181 00:15:52.679 --> 00:15:58.120 whatever your function is that that's saying okay, return this value. You're telling 182 00:15:58.159 --> 00:16:00.559 it, okay, this is the component that I want you to pass it 183 00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:04.799 to, and here are the props that go to this particular component. And 184 00:16:04.919 --> 00:16:08.120 so then in your in your front end component, you just expect your props 185 00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:11.600 as you normally would, you know, from anything else, and that way, 186 00:16:11.679 --> 00:16:17.000 it's that makes it very much a lot quicker because you're bypassing the page 187 00:16:17.080 --> 00:16:19.200 reloader it uses. And if you look in the inertia docks at are Ersegas 188 00:16:19.279 --> 00:16:23.240 dot com and talks about the headers that it uses to determine what's going on. 189 00:16:23.960 --> 00:16:27.759 And then even within you know, if you're within a component you want 190 00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:32.080 to click a button and you want to, you know, just go to 191 00:16:32.120 --> 00:16:34.000 your back end and get some data without reloading the page. That has some 192 00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:37.840 helper functions like visit where you can say, okay, go to this url, 193 00:16:38.639 --> 00:16:41.840 it calls your method, you do what she needs to do, and 194 00:16:41.879 --> 00:16:45.320 then it returns it. So it makes it very quick because of bypassing the 195 00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:52.480 whole page reloading. That's really all it does. And then not sure if 196 00:16:52.519 --> 00:16:55.399 we cover this in detail, but your routes, you're only defining your routes 197 00:16:55.440 --> 00:16:59.240 in your back end and it's just using those if you go to the docks, 198 00:16:59.240 --> 00:17:00.360 it just says, yeah, to find your routes in your back end, 199 00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:03.039 you call them from the front end, where normally with like a USPA, 200 00:17:04.240 --> 00:17:07.359 you would have your your view router configuration where you've got to find your 201 00:17:07.440 --> 00:17:11.400 routes and then it calls the standpoints on and so forth. So it makes 202 00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:15.799 it much neaterer and cleaner, and that you're only finding your routes in one 203 00:17:15.880 --> 00:17:18.440 place instead of instead of two different places and both your front and your back 204 00:17:18.519 --> 00:17:22.160 end. Right, So, what are some other things that you wanted to 205 00:17:22.440 --> 00:17:29.799 that you want people to know about the boring stack, either implementation details or 206 00:17:30.039 --> 00:17:37.799 philosophy. Yeah, definitely. So the first thing is that you don't need 207 00:17:37.079 --> 00:17:45.960 to because in the JavaScript cycles of new trends, and you feel if you're 208 00:17:45.319 --> 00:17:53.920 already no view and reacts or is built? Are you like the component? 209 00:17:55.000 --> 00:17:57.839 Because I find out most times what we like in these promotes is the DSL 210 00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:03.160 that they like that they to us write our U eyes in right. So 211 00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:06.359 if you if you want to shout out the noise that you have to piece 212 00:18:06.440 --> 00:18:10.880 yourself. Because why I liked Sales back in the day was I started to 213 00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:15.200 know just with Express and it was a paint to always have to go find 214 00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:19.480 for everything that I need in order to build an API. In Express, 215 00:18:19.559 --> 00:18:23.000 I have to piece everything together. So I found Sales and they just have 216 00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:27.440 everything you need. So there were a lot of conventions that work, which 217 00:18:27.480 --> 00:18:33.039 is MVC. So that's same thing that Sales let me do, which is 218 00:18:33.119 --> 00:18:36.079 the move with quick. That's what the start is trying to do, which 219 00:18:36.160 --> 00:18:41.119 is if anyone, even if you're a new by, your already know components 220 00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:45.039 in whatever you have frameworks you like, all you have to do is to 221 00:18:47.160 --> 00:18:52.039 user start right your components like sixty percent of the time because your back end 222 00:18:52.200 --> 00:18:56.960 just act like the data layer. I just just sending down a page with 223 00:18:56.039 --> 00:19:02.519 the prop. Then you do everything that you normally do components and it's just 224 00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:07.680 a brudge to work with I've had folks seeing that we're using next Years have 225 00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:11.680 a demo of the stack, and they really really loved it because of how 226 00:19:11.880 --> 00:19:14.480 simple it is, and it takes a lot of stuff, like cause is 227 00:19:14.519 --> 00:19:17.400 no longer an issue because you're backing at your front there at the same page, 228 00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:19.079 so you don't have to worry about all that, all right, so 229 00:19:19.240 --> 00:19:23.759 the old reckless hell of course it's not long your thing to worry about. 230 00:19:25.359 --> 00:19:27.319 And it just sort of like makes sense, right, like when you use 231 00:19:27.400 --> 00:19:33.200 something that is there's holistic, Like I said, no loading spinners, Like 232 00:19:33.880 --> 00:19:37.960 I've had to deal with that, where why is the page loading? And 233 00:19:37.039 --> 00:19:41.480 I still have to go fetch data for it again? Right, like to 234 00:19:41.599 --> 00:19:44.440 give you this empty share which is your spa promise, you know, just 235 00:19:44.559 --> 00:19:47.920 look the page and get the data. But there's no benefit of the page 236 00:19:47.960 --> 00:19:52.039 to the user if you've seen a loading spinner. So the page load first 237 00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:56.319 of all with the normal browser load that's some seconds. Then do you not 238 00:19:56.440 --> 00:19:59.839 have to load your own? It's just too much. So I feel like 239 00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:03.680 you want to keep the simple, keep things really really fast. You should 240 00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:07.480 use the boranch start because it just does all that. And again you're not 241 00:20:07.599 --> 00:20:14.160 construmed from what's sending Jason over the wire. You can also do that because 242 00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:18.880 it doesn't construme you not to do that, So you could still have pages 243 00:20:18.559 --> 00:20:23.279 send the inertial way and also Bill fetch your data with Jason if you want. 244 00:20:26.799 --> 00:20:30.519 Okay, so two questions, I'll try this one. I mean, 245 00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:36.359 I hear both sides of this argument about should your application use its API? 246 00:20:37.559 --> 00:20:40.759 Are you going to export an API to customers? And then, if so, 247 00:20:41.240 --> 00:20:44.279 should your application use your API? And I've kind of always been on 248 00:20:44.319 --> 00:20:48.240 the side of yes, your application should use your API. And my reasoning 249 00:20:48.359 --> 00:20:56.720 for that has been that when people design, like most people don't have experts 250 00:20:56.960 --> 00:21:03.440 on the team, right, and when people are designing their front end and 251 00:21:03.519 --> 00:21:07.240 their back end together, then everything starts to look like the front end, 252 00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:11.599 right. So when there's a form on the front end, then the data 253 00:21:11.720 --> 00:21:15.160 model starts to look like that form, and the database table starts to look 254 00:21:15.279 --> 00:21:19.240 like that form. And then when it comes time that you need to modify 255 00:21:19.400 --> 00:21:26.039 things or add an API or expose a customer integration, you're just screwed. 256 00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:37.000 And I'm curious with this stack, are you advocating it to people that are 257 00:21:37.119 --> 00:21:40.960 going to be exporting things that are going to integrate with others. Are there 258 00:21:41.079 --> 00:21:47.480 some guardrails in place to help people fall into the pit of success in terms 259 00:21:47.519 --> 00:21:53.400 of data modeling or is it really just for kind of like the javscript versions 260 00:21:53.400 --> 00:22:00.200 of rails where it's you're going to create a cookie cutter site and you're not 261 00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:03.920 You're not really going to be, you know, exporting an API or something. 262 00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:08.440 You're just building a like a like it's more customizable than WordPress, but 263 00:22:08.559 --> 00:22:11.400 you want to do it in JavaScript rather than Ruby on rails, Like, 264 00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:15.480 I guess there was a lot of stuff there, but yeah, you pick 265 00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:19.799 at any of that. Yeah, definitely. So for our sales mix for 266 00:22:19.880 --> 00:22:26.119 a really good framework for building APIs, Like I do know Postman and Pastack 267 00:22:26.240 --> 00:22:32.400 they use it Postman for micro services and Pastack for like, yeah, public 268 00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:34.960 facing a PI. You can't build an a p I a right, And 269 00:22:36.319 --> 00:22:40.559 this thing is what I've seen and I think a couple of us. So 270 00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:45.640 I used to be a very good advocate for recpis. I still am. 271 00:22:45.240 --> 00:22:52.839 But the through is for most apps you won't need to expose a sp I. 272 00:22:52.519 --> 00:22:56.039 Sometimes I get people say, like, you know what, let's vie 273 00:22:56.200 --> 00:22:59.559 the RECIPEI now and use it so that when we have to expose it, 274 00:23:00.680 --> 00:23:07.680 it's just the what the truth is your API that you use for your app 275 00:23:08.079 --> 00:23:11.279 a lot of the time, if you want to suppose it, it won't 276 00:23:11.319 --> 00:23:15.920 be the same. So I've seen this work, but like when seems that 277 00:23:17.079 --> 00:23:18.279 to be, like, you know what, let's build an API so that 278 00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:21.799 we can consume it, and of course I suppose it. It's not going 279 00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:23.519 to be the same thing, so the use case is never the same. 280 00:23:23.599 --> 00:23:29.279 That's when we have terms like back and for front end, and you start 281 00:23:29.359 --> 00:23:33.400 have like you start having to modify different parts of the Jason your center back. 282 00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:37.480 So to your point, this tack is mostly for full start applications. 283 00:23:38.359 --> 00:23:42.039 Most apps are okay being food that applications, especially if your client is on 284 00:23:42.160 --> 00:23:45.839 the web. You don't have to build an API, which is the entire 285 00:23:45.880 --> 00:23:49.759 idea of of initial which is like, you don't need an API, but 286 00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:56.079 if you must, you can expose your API routes. But I wouldn't say 287 00:23:56.160 --> 00:24:00.160 that the same API routs for you for your own private use the same you're 288 00:24:00.200 --> 00:24:07.759 going to suppose. It's most likely doesn't always work out really well, I 289 00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:15.559 know, right, So on the I think the old recipe. I thought, 290 00:24:15.640 --> 00:24:18.279 right, if you could use your your private one I used to, 291 00:24:18.359 --> 00:24:26.960 I suppose the same one. Have you had to do that? So I 292 00:24:27.319 --> 00:24:30.799 I just think that if the data is modeled well, I mean, well 293 00:24:30.839 --> 00:24:37.880 then this this comes to the SPA versus the service I render issue. But 294 00:24:38.039 --> 00:24:44.279 I think if the data is modeled well, then you you should be able 295 00:24:44.359 --> 00:24:48.079 to use it externally and internally. And yes, you may need to tweak 296 00:24:48.119 --> 00:24:55.640 it for the internal use, but but then you have to you have to 297 00:24:55.759 --> 00:24:59.119 model it well. And if it's modeled well, I mean, but this 298 00:24:59.359 --> 00:25:03.720 this is the whole thing of like the PHP style where you're exporting the data 299 00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:10.880 specifically for a form view or a gallery view or whatever, versus you're exporting 300 00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:15.759 information, Like are you exporting a view as Jason or you exporting information? 301 00:25:15.839 --> 00:25:23.319 If you're exporting a view as Jason, then it's not really an API. 302 00:25:23.480 --> 00:25:27.720 It's it's a it's a particular view of the data. It's not about the 303 00:25:29.079 --> 00:25:32.559 properties or the values of the data or the relationships of the data. It's 304 00:25:32.599 --> 00:25:37.759 about I wanted to show this gallery with this this pieces of information. You're 305 00:25:37.759 --> 00:25:40.960 selecting that, right, And that's and that's kind of like the promise of 306 00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:44.920 graph QL is that you don't have to make the decision. You get to 307 00:25:45.039 --> 00:25:48.000 do both and then you know, we saw how that turned out. But 308 00:25:48.200 --> 00:25:52.240 you know, on the other side, if the data is not modeled to 309 00:25:52.359 --> 00:25:56.599 the UI, then if you're trying to do whether you're doing client side rendering 310 00:25:56.799 --> 00:26:00.480 or service side rendering, then you have to have another layer that's going to 311 00:26:00.599 --> 00:26:03.480 consume the API, which I guess you know, either it's the back end 312 00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:08.079 for the front end, or it's the or it's it's more sophisticated front end 313 00:26:08.160 --> 00:26:12.319 where you need to fetch a bunch of objects, you need to iterate through 314 00:26:12.359 --> 00:26:15.680 them, you need to attach the extra data for them. And so I 315 00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:22.480 guess I guess maybe I think of a of an API as being a little 316 00:26:22.519 --> 00:26:26.079 bit closer to the model with some of the business logic that needs to be 317 00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:33.599 done on top of it solved, and a view is more like what what's 318 00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:36.920 going to be templated. I don't know, I don't know where I'm going 319 00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:40.480 with that. I'm just thinking out loud. No, yeah, like I 320 00:26:40.640 --> 00:26:45.440 get the thought. But I think when we go into real world we sort 321 00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:48.359 of like, see, so you just painted an ideal API hing, but 322 00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:52.240 if that was the case of every app, we wouldn't need graphs. All 323 00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:56.759 the different solutions we have tried to come up with just for like, our 324 00:26:56.960 --> 00:27:00.000 UIs to get just the data it needs, so do all over an affetching 325 00:27:00.079 --> 00:27:04.200 thing. It gets to tell us that that ideal the PI is not really 326 00:27:04.599 --> 00:27:10.319 what the end consumer would need. So if I just send you know what, 327 00:27:10.599 --> 00:27:15.000 this is my generative game, which is tied to the data and it's 328 00:27:15.119 --> 00:27:18.000 modern, really well, my UI will have to now do some extra work 329 00:27:18.119 --> 00:27:21.240 right to get just the data it needs, you know, like, okay, 330 00:27:21.279 --> 00:27:23.680 let's put the graph on top of this one. Two cannot pick face. 331 00:27:25.480 --> 00:27:30.680 So with the boring stack, now the you I only get the data 332 00:27:30.759 --> 00:27:33.440 it needs. And this is suitable for just web apps. So instead of 333 00:27:33.480 --> 00:27:37.000 you thinking of okay, graph c so I can need to pick so the 334 00:27:37.079 --> 00:27:40.720 page will only come with the data that that page need. So there's no 335 00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:42.880 overfetching, there's no un affection. You only get in the data you need. 336 00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:48.400 So we did have a couple of questions here, I'll go ahead and 337 00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:53.160 field which I think you just answered this one to confirm the boring stack compiles 338 00:27:53.279 --> 00:27:57.200 the page with the props you passed into it, right, Yes, So 339 00:27:57.960 --> 00:28:04.079 it makes an asp PA look like a static site. If you if you 340 00:28:04.200 --> 00:28:10.200 look at the source code of an inertia page, what you'll see is there's 341 00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:14.799 a big, huge data attribute of the top page that has all the data 342 00:28:14.799 --> 00:28:18.160 that's been passed into it as props. And that's how it's scoring that and 343 00:28:18.279 --> 00:28:22.559 accessing that. Yeah, I'm not sure I understand what it means. What 344 00:28:22.799 --> 00:28:27.519 makes it look static because it's still because what I guess, because the data 345 00:28:27.599 --> 00:28:30.240 is passed in before the page is actually compiled. I mean, it can 346 00:28:30.279 --> 00:28:33.680 be verysly. I do a lot of really cool dynamic stuff with the page 347 00:28:33.720 --> 00:28:38.160 as well. Once it's loaded, you know where I just send you know, 348 00:28:38.200 --> 00:28:42.119 a little bit of data back to my API and it passes it back 349 00:28:42.160 --> 00:28:45.359 and I only update that certain section of the page without the whole you know, 350 00:28:45.640 --> 00:28:49.119 browser reload, which is part of inertia, and there's some stuff you 351 00:28:49.160 --> 00:28:52.680 got to do. There's some really cool props you can pass that says okay, 352 00:28:55.640 --> 00:28:59.119 only get me to change data or only get me such and such data. 353 00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:04.440 So it's doing the absolute minimum in terms of traffic between the front and 354 00:29:04.480 --> 00:29:10.759 the back end. Yeah, definitely. And to add to that, point. 355 00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:18.200 Sometimes in the old traditional way, you often get to like if I 356 00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:22.799 submit the form, or like I want to reload the page back after like 357 00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:26.400 an update, you just get everything back, right, Like maybe I have 358 00:29:26.559 --> 00:29:30.880 like a course to space, and I just edit just one course. When 359 00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:36.880 I submit the form with my agents and everything, the data would just send 360 00:29:36.920 --> 00:29:41.079 back the JAP blog, right. But with this one, with this tag, 361 00:29:41.079 --> 00:29:45.039 which is really cool and it's powered by inertia, you could just need 362 00:29:45.079 --> 00:29:48.559 to pick what you want back, be like, okay, this course in 363 00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:53.000 this process, list was the only thing changed, return it back for me, 364 00:29:55.079 --> 00:29:56.960 right. So it's I don't want to call it giving you the power 365 00:29:57.119 --> 00:30:02.359 graphical, but it's sort of like you have control of what gets returned back 366 00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:07.400 from the server. With all the APIs that inertia is going to provide for 367 00:30:07.480 --> 00:30:12.480 you. You could preserve scroll and you could do a ton of stuff that's 368 00:30:12.559 --> 00:30:17.599 really really cool that we can't really actually get into because it's just it's simple. 369 00:30:18.440 --> 00:30:21.519 It's a routing layer, but it has so much power. Well, 370 00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:27.039 what are some other what what are some other questions that we we should be 371 00:30:27.200 --> 00:30:34.160 asking you? Oh yeah, yeah, So so Steve's point so earlier on 372 00:30:34.319 --> 00:30:38.440 in measure that it's not sure why this should be zone stack, but I'm 373 00:30:38.440 --> 00:30:41.640 making a zone stack because at the end of the day, my vision is 374 00:30:41.680 --> 00:30:48.599 that inertia it's not just so making not all pages are mediequal. Right. 375 00:30:48.920 --> 00:30:55.160 So in an SPA land, because you're using React SPA, everything should be 376 00:30:55.279 --> 00:30:59.599 a React SPA because it is in nextges, everything is SSR if you want 377 00:30:59.640 --> 00:31:02.359 that, or all the I SR and everything you have to do. But 378 00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:06.160 in my world, or in the boring staff world, we know that not 379 00:31:06.440 --> 00:31:10.960 every page should be a single page application, none, that every page should 380 00:31:11.000 --> 00:31:15.759 have SSR. Right, So we are using inertial to power these single page 381 00:31:15.799 --> 00:31:22.039 apps. Right. And there's something I'm currently working on which I've actually mentioned 382 00:31:22.279 --> 00:31:26.599 a little bit before, which is even now in sales world we use EAGs 383 00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:30.480 for templates, but I feel like having to learn to DSL to author pages 384 00:31:30.640 --> 00:31:33.960 people don't like. I think me and myself, I don't like egs at 385 00:31:33.960 --> 00:31:37.640 all. I don't like the same tax at all. So my thought process 386 00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:42.160 is, what if you can use the same jexs you write for your clients 387 00:31:42.200 --> 00:31:48.559 side up and also your back end views INSS as well, so that for 388 00:31:48.680 --> 00:31:51.880 pages like the home page, they are back page, the priceing page. 389 00:31:51.880 --> 00:31:53.759 Of pages that don't need jamas at all, you can still write the same 390 00:31:53.880 --> 00:32:01.200 gess but when it gets acts for like user, you just send them HTML, 391 00:32:01.799 --> 00:32:08.039 which is SEU friendly, does not have anything to do with the user 392 00:32:08.160 --> 00:32:14.920 in terms of JAMA scripts load. Right. So this is the key piece 393 00:32:15.079 --> 00:32:17.480 of the broying stack which is still being walked on today because I feel like 394 00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:23.599 you can have this hybrid app but the same code base, the same dear 395 00:32:23.640 --> 00:32:27.319 story you're writing. All you have to do is to know that, okay 396 00:32:27.440 --> 00:32:30.119 for this, this is so my slash dashboard, it's my single page app. 397 00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:38.799 My marketing page should be HTML because that's what value you get from the 398 00:32:40.680 --> 00:32:45.759 from the marketing page is more content, right, content and SEO. So 399 00:32:45.920 --> 00:32:52.759 I saw this this talk from someone at Netflix where they had to remove react 400 00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:59.799 from the marketing page and then saw an increase in conversion because they all hydration 401 00:33:00.519 --> 00:33:05.680 was taken too long and people were actually clicking away. So just imagine you 402 00:33:05.720 --> 00:33:15.559 are still using reacts, but you're sitting down htmoor by default. Yeah yeah, 403 00:33:15.559 --> 00:33:21.039 I mean I that as somebody who is a big fan of scraping and 404 00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:25.599 being able to get to data when no API is provided. I really do 405 00:33:25.759 --> 00:33:31.480 hate react sites because there is no data on the page. Yeah, and 406 00:33:32.160 --> 00:33:36.799 it is. Yeah, it's it's really frustrating because there's so many sites out 407 00:33:36.839 --> 00:33:39.119 there that have useful information. It's like, I just want to automate something 408 00:33:39.200 --> 00:33:42.960 off of this, and they, you know, they haven't bothered to create 409 00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:47.039 an API for it, and and so yeah, from from that perspective, 410 00:33:47.640 --> 00:33:52.799 whether it's because the search engine is going to be able to understand it better, 411 00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:57.400 or the GPT is going to be able to understand it better, or 412 00:33:57.640 --> 00:34:01.319 just because I know a lot of people don't like the idea of somebody scraping 413 00:34:01.400 --> 00:34:05.400 the content off of their site. But I don't know. I hope if 414 00:34:05.440 --> 00:34:10.280 you've got valuable content and you're not, you're not in a business where you're 415 00:34:10.360 --> 00:34:17.360 creating a product out of the content, particularly like just make it in a 416 00:34:17.480 --> 00:34:21.599 format that's easy for people to consume. Otherwise, I guess why are you 417 00:34:21.800 --> 00:34:23.599 Why are you creating the content in the first place. Some people should be 418 00:34:23.599 --> 00:34:27.440 able to use it in some some way. So, yeah, I really 419 00:34:27.599 --> 00:34:34.280 like the idea of for static pages render them. So so does this does 420 00:34:34.360 --> 00:34:37.719 this have some sort of mechanism where you can say, Okay, these pages 421 00:34:37.800 --> 00:34:44.199 are mostly static, so treat treat them as such, and then these pages 422 00:34:44.320 --> 00:34:49.679 are mostly dynamic. So you know, these pages are more component heavy and 423 00:34:49.800 --> 00:34:53.159 these pages are more content heavy. Is there a differentiation between the two or 424 00:34:53.239 --> 00:35:01.320 is it just you're always getting the static benefit by way of you know, 425 00:35:01.440 --> 00:35:07.599 it's it's it's rendering things as the as the props are past them. Yeah, 426 00:35:07.960 --> 00:35:13.239 So what's going to happen is that they're going to be two places to 427 00:35:13.360 --> 00:35:17.639 define your your components. Right. So now in the stack, so we 428 00:35:17.800 --> 00:35:27.800 have assets like jas and pages, so that page directory is where you find 429 00:35:28.119 --> 00:35:35.039 your XPA pages. Right. Then if you want to define your STML pages, 430 00:35:35.039 --> 00:35:37.360 which is going to be in your components, you could do it in 431 00:35:37.559 --> 00:35:45.440 views. So we all know the old emphys at model, views and controller. 432 00:35:45.599 --> 00:35:51.239 So once you define something in jers inside the views folder, it's going 433 00:35:51.360 --> 00:36:00.679 to be compowd at request time and send back as at right, so the 434 00:36:00.960 --> 00:36:06.519 only convention you have to know is and the views older you will are only 435 00:36:07.480 --> 00:36:14.119 defining components that are going to be used as templates for your server side rendering. 436 00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:17.639 And once it gets to the user, there is no hydration because you 437 00:36:17.719 --> 00:36:22.840 don't need this, right, It's just these pages has stating their hym but 438 00:36:22.360 --> 00:36:27.079 just for your DX you can still use the same components you're using for your 439 00:36:27.119 --> 00:36:30.519 single applications. So that's just the convention. Like I said, this part 440 00:36:30.599 --> 00:36:37.320 is still being worked on. And I saw who know from class flare. 441 00:36:37.480 --> 00:36:40.440 I think yes, I think we know from classware, so it's a new 442 00:36:40.519 --> 00:36:49.800 framework. They also do this where you can write your your templates in gxcess. 443 00:36:50.679 --> 00:36:55.079 Yeah, so's actually a very good and vible idea. I think Netflix 444 00:36:55.199 --> 00:37:00.519 does it too, and a little bit of paper as well. So we 445 00:37:00.719 --> 00:37:05.199 can't do this like for like since forever now right, but with this like 446 00:37:05.360 --> 00:37:10.239 next years and remixed, it's sort of like I've been archived for you to 447 00:37:10.440 --> 00:37:15.800 just go use next for something else. But I think those components can be 448 00:37:15.840 --> 00:37:20.519 really good templates if you just have the engineering to just make it really nice 449 00:37:20.519 --> 00:37:23.000 to use. Now, for what it's worth, is probably worth mentioning along 450 00:37:23.039 --> 00:37:27.639 these lines that I know this came in later after the initial at least, 451 00:37:27.760 --> 00:37:35.679 But Inertia has a service side rendering capability. Yes, that's mentioned in their 452 00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:43.760 docs, so there's a whole page on how they implemented, but it does 453 00:37:43.880 --> 00:37:46.920 take that capability have that capability, so that not every page has to be 454 00:37:47.360 --> 00:37:54.800 a job script rendered template. Yeah. So the the only difference with that 455 00:37:54.960 --> 00:38:01.280 one with the SSL one it needs to hydrate, right, So yeah, 456 00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:07.119 and full there sellicide views that I'm talking about. It shouldn't hydrate because you 457 00:38:07.320 --> 00:38:13.079 don't need the Joba script right And even in larre Bell I know you can 458 00:38:13.159 --> 00:38:16.199 do you can just return and you know that you do the view. You 459 00:38:16.280 --> 00:38:22.199 know in an interview, you can have your hard coded ah htmo. There's 460 00:38:22.199 --> 00:38:27.599 been ways you can do that. So but the point is even with this, 461 00:38:27.760 --> 00:38:31.599 there's not every page doesn't have to be a dynamic job screen template. 462 00:38:32.519 --> 00:38:37.440 Yeah for sure. All right, well it sounds like we're kind of wrapping 463 00:38:37.559 --> 00:38:45.159 up here. I think we've covered a fair amount of the topic. If 464 00:38:45.239 --> 00:38:49.519 people want to learn more or if they want to reach out to you, 465 00:38:49.639 --> 00:38:54.119 where should they head. Yeah, so you could go to the dogs for 466 00:38:54.239 --> 00:38:58.840 the bowling stock, which is dogs the sky, the com slash bowl stock, 467 00:38:59.519 --> 00:39:01.840 or just of com slash boring to take you to the repo. It 468 00:39:01.960 --> 00:39:06.280 can of schedule links of the dogs. So if you want to reash out 469 00:39:06.320 --> 00:39:12.719 to me, you could join this discord slash chats, or you could just 470 00:39:12.800 --> 00:39:21.960 sweet at me at Dominos And yeah, your questions and do you know about 471 00:39:22.280 --> 00:39:24.800 picks? Were you informed of that we do a thing called picks at the 472 00:39:24.880 --> 00:39:28.840 end of the show. No, I did not. What's that you have 473 00:39:28.920 --> 00:39:31.199 to feel? Met Steve, and I'll go first. It's just you pick 474 00:39:31.280 --> 00:39:35.800 something you're interested in or something that you thought was cool. Could be tech, 475 00:39:35.960 --> 00:39:38.639 could be a movie, could be uh you know, some sort of 476 00:39:40.119 --> 00:39:45.320 article and a newspaper or whatever. You just pick pick something that that you 477 00:39:45.440 --> 00:39:47.800 think is cool. And then before I do that, Steve, did I 478 00:39:47.880 --> 00:39:52.039 do everything right? Do we leave anything off before we close out the show 479 00:39:52.119 --> 00:39:57.320 here? Uh? No, I think we got to cover. If we 480 00:39:57.360 --> 00:39:59.840 do remember something, it will be after we're done. Then we'll have to 481 00:40:00.920 --> 00:40:04.519 added in somehow. I'm sure. I thank fornight. You're pretty good. 482 00:40:05.960 --> 00:40:10.079 Okay, well, I will go ahead and lead us off with a few 483 00:40:10.159 --> 00:40:16.480 picks. So, as I mentioned last time, I have gotten into the 484 00:40:16.760 --> 00:40:28.679 aquarium hobby and it's very fascinating because it's there's a lot of technical stuff to 485 00:40:28.840 --> 00:40:31.760 learn and do. Some stuff that's pretty rote, like if you learn how 486 00:40:31.840 --> 00:40:38.039 to do I like things that are functional from the perspective of if you do 487 00:40:38.480 --> 00:40:42.719 X, you get result why, and you get result why every time. 488 00:40:42.840 --> 00:40:46.360 That is something that you know has drawn me to computers and programming, and 489 00:40:46.480 --> 00:40:52.960 I like to optimize things in my life. I will take the same routes 490 00:40:53.119 --> 00:40:58.119 on a road, like my brain is like a reduced instruction set processor. 491 00:40:58.199 --> 00:41:00.440 I will take the same routes on the road, even if I know a 492 00:41:00.519 --> 00:41:06.800 more efficient route is available, because I just rather get better at these particular 493 00:41:07.400 --> 00:41:10.360 set of routes rather than every possible route. And I've got a buddy who 494 00:41:10.639 --> 00:41:14.119 when he drives with me, he's like, oh, well, you know 495 00:41:14.360 --> 00:41:15.559 if you went this way, you'd get there faster. I'm like, yeah, 496 00:41:15.599 --> 00:41:21.000 but I'm just gonna take State Street or Main Street because because that, 497 00:41:21.280 --> 00:41:23.519 you know, that's I just I travel the same roads, I do the 498 00:41:23.599 --> 00:41:30.800 same things. I even oftentimes eat the same foods very very much. That 499 00:41:31.639 --> 00:41:39.000 I just well, it's it's beyond habit. It's I am customizing for fewer 500 00:41:39.159 --> 00:41:45.719 mental inputs. But this, the aquarium hobby kind of goes against that because 501 00:41:46.239 --> 00:41:52.440 there there is no way to really jump start your aquarium. You you can 502 00:41:52.639 --> 00:42:00.039 have anyway you there's there's just a lot of levers and knobs that you you 503 00:42:00.159 --> 00:42:02.400 have to learn, and they're going to be different for everybody because your tap 504 00:42:02.480 --> 00:42:07.039 water is different where you live, The fish that you get might be used 505 00:42:07.079 --> 00:42:10.679 to different parameters. The plants that you want are different than the plants that 506 00:42:10.760 --> 00:42:15.440 somebody else wants. The type of things you're trying to combine in your tank 507 00:42:15.800 --> 00:42:21.400 to create the environment you want are different. And the ecosystem just isn't natural. 508 00:42:21.760 --> 00:42:24.760 You know that these fish don't naturally to go together, These plants don't 509 00:42:24.840 --> 00:42:29.719 naturally go together. These fish and these plants don't naturally go together, and 510 00:42:29.880 --> 00:42:35.320 so trying to create a self sustaining ecosystem is kind of impossible, or at 511 00:42:35.400 --> 00:42:38.039 least there's trade offs. There's there are no solutions, only trade offs. 512 00:42:38.119 --> 00:42:45.559 That quote certainly applies in this case. Anyway. I didn't mean to go 513 00:42:45.679 --> 00:42:50.840 that much into all of that, but I guess it's just super fascinating to 514 00:42:51.000 --> 00:42:54.559 me because I'm trying to learn how to create the ecosystem that I want inside 515 00:42:54.599 --> 00:43:00.800 of this little glass box. And it's hard to get the parameter right because 516 00:43:00.800 --> 00:43:07.079 they're living things, and you can't just even if something is generally true, 517 00:43:07.199 --> 00:43:12.000 the evolution that you're getting like that, if you breed some fish, if 518 00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:17.280 you breed some guppies or you breed some tetras or whatever. The next generation 519 00:43:17.920 --> 00:43:23.800 that you're getting from what you bought is more specific and tuned to its environment. 520 00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:29.559 So the next generation is going to be different. As you get more 521 00:43:29.679 --> 00:43:32.519 fish, the bio load of the tank is going to be different. Well, 522 00:43:32.559 --> 00:43:36.119 assuming that you're feeding them more. You know, at some point you 523 00:43:36.199 --> 00:43:39.360 can reach equilibrium by just letting things die. But then the problem with that 524 00:43:39.559 --> 00:43:43.400 is then the water starts to turn kind of a yellowy color like it is 525 00:43:43.480 --> 00:43:46.760 in real life and ponds and whatnot, because the decaying matter tends the water. 526 00:43:47.079 --> 00:43:51.119 But if you wanted to just let stuff die and grow and die, 527 00:43:51.239 --> 00:43:55.840 then things will reach in equilibrium in terms of you know, the water can 528 00:43:55.920 --> 00:44:00.239 only support this many fish, it can only support this many plants, only 529 00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:01.760 this many nutrients. You can create a clothed system like that. But it's 530 00:44:01.800 --> 00:44:08.199 just it's super fascinating and so yeah, I'll just I just pick that as 531 00:44:08.199 --> 00:44:15.400 a general concept, and it's I'm having a lot of fun learning about it. 532 00:44:15.599 --> 00:44:17.519 I'm trying to get my wife into it a little bit. She kind 533 00:44:17.559 --> 00:44:22.039 of will dip her toe into it with me. She's not as excited about 534 00:44:22.039 --> 00:44:24.920 it as I am. But she helped me. She helped me put together 535 00:44:24.960 --> 00:44:30.760 an aquarium last night. And it's it's so I tore one down. I 536 00:44:30.840 --> 00:44:34.000 bought a ten dollars aquarium on sale and I tore it down and I built 537 00:44:34.039 --> 00:44:37.800 it back up and I used a higher grade silicone. And it's so crazy 538 00:44:37.800 --> 00:44:42.760 because there's like there's like four millimeters of silicone holding this thing together. And 539 00:44:42.840 --> 00:44:46.280 that's it, Like that's that's all you actually need is the silicone in between 540 00:44:46.320 --> 00:44:52.000 the glass if you clean away everything else, Like it's the four it's it's 541 00:44:52.119 --> 00:44:57.360 like a a quarter of a millimeter thick and about four millimeters wide, and 542 00:44:57.440 --> 00:45:01.199 it's so scary, but in reality, like that is actually what holds the 543 00:45:01.239 --> 00:45:06.280 thing together. All the rest of it is just because they use a lower 544 00:45:06.360 --> 00:45:09.840 grade aquarium that's like ten cents less, and probably more importantly, they use 545 00:45:09.880 --> 00:45:14.599 a they don't they don't use people that are highly skilled to put them together. 546 00:45:14.719 --> 00:45:17.519 So at the shops they just slop on the silicone. So you see, 547 00:45:17.679 --> 00:45:20.719 you know, when you go into the pet store, you see this 548 00:45:20.920 --> 00:45:24.360 tank and it's got like a full freaking inch of silicone on it. But 549 00:45:24.480 --> 00:45:29.880 that's literally just slop that's left over because they didn't bother to clean it up 550 00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:34.239 when they put it together. The part that actually holds it together is the 551 00:45:34.320 --> 00:45:37.039 quarter millimeter. By the four millimeters, it's insane, so it's so scary 552 00:45:37.079 --> 00:45:42.280 to look at the thing, but it holds water. So anyway, so 553 00:45:43.239 --> 00:45:45.800 that pick brings a couple of things to mind. Yeah, that's great because 554 00:45:45.800 --> 00:45:50.800 it's your turn. I guess you could say that your aquarium is sort of 555 00:45:50.840 --> 00:45:57.119 an unopinion native framework, right, okay, all right. It doesn't give 556 00:45:57.159 --> 00:45:59.840 you all the rules. It lets you do things however you want to do 557 00:45:59.880 --> 00:46:02.559 it. Well, there's a lot of rules. They're just not easy to 558 00:46:02.679 --> 00:46:08.960 understand. There's basic trade offs like the nitrogen cycle, how much food you 559 00:46:09.039 --> 00:46:12.519 put in, how much water you take out. If you put up your 560 00:46:12.559 --> 00:46:15.559 plants, then you're taking out some of the nutrients, which means you have 561 00:46:15.599 --> 00:46:20.159 to add nutrients. But but yeah, it's just there's a ton of variables, 562 00:46:20.599 --> 00:46:25.119 and if you want to get the low maintenance, self sustaining aquarium, 563 00:46:25.159 --> 00:46:29.360 it's going to take like a year to do it because you have to get 564 00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:34.599 everything has to reach equilibrium and then you have to stop doing so it's just 565 00:46:34.719 --> 00:46:38.440 constant change. Yeah, well, like I said, from a code standpoint, 566 00:46:38.440 --> 00:46:45.000 it's like an unopinionated framework versus an opinionated framework. Yeah yeah, and 567 00:46:45.039 --> 00:46:49.440 then yeah, but like but like a code more framework where every time you 568 00:46:49.599 --> 00:46:53.840 run the code, the code changes, because I mean it's biology, like 569 00:46:54.079 --> 00:47:00.199 every day some different process is happening and then that affects other process. The 570 00:47:00.320 --> 00:47:02.920 other thing was I don't know if you ever heard a song I was back 571 00:47:02.920 --> 00:47:07.039 in the eighties, the guy named Kippa Data. He was real big on 572 00:47:07.159 --> 00:47:10.840 puns. He had all kinds of songs, and they had one called Wet 573 00:47:10.920 --> 00:47:16.559 Dreams. It's all the whole thing about fish puns. And he goes into 574 00:47:16.679 --> 00:47:22.360 a bar and anyway, he's talking to some some gal and he says, 575 00:47:22.440 --> 00:47:24.639 so, what's your son. She goes aquarium. He said, great, 576 00:47:24.719 --> 00:47:31.519 let's get tanked. Anyway, that reminds me of so uh picked for the 577 00:47:31.639 --> 00:47:36.280 day. I just as last week. I might have mentioned this before. 578 00:47:36.360 --> 00:47:39.639 Apologies if this is a duplicate a few months ago. But I've been studying 579 00:47:39.719 --> 00:47:45.280 to get my It's called the FAA Federal Aviation Administration Part one of seven drone 580 00:47:45.320 --> 00:47:49.800 certification and it's what you need, it's what you have to have if you 581 00:47:49.920 --> 00:47:53.519 are flying your drone in any capacity other than as a hobby for fun. 582 00:47:54.239 --> 00:47:58.960 So if you're doing you know, you're getting pictures something anything for money, 583 00:47:59.199 --> 00:48:01.239 you know, a commercial, if there's a commercial aspect to it. Those 584 00:48:01.280 --> 00:48:07.880 limitations on the types of drones, and the reason I got it is to 585 00:48:07.079 --> 00:48:12.960 be able to fly drones for our fire district. The fire department I'm with, 586 00:48:13.239 --> 00:48:15.920 We getting a drone program going and it's very useful over you know, 587 00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:22.440 some larger instincts and stuff. Anyway, it was recommended that I take study 588 00:48:22.559 --> 00:48:28.199 for the course by taking there's an online course from a place called Pilot Institute. 589 00:48:28.239 --> 00:48:32.880 Pilot institute dot com. Really good online course for this. This guy 590 00:48:34.039 --> 00:48:37.559 who does that, he's a French guy who lives in Prescott, Arizona now, 591 00:48:37.639 --> 00:48:43.079 but he has online classes for pilots as well as the drone courses. 592 00:48:43.800 --> 00:48:46.000 And you know, with the FA there's books you can get and there's FA 593 00:48:46.239 --> 00:48:51.039 has study guides for all the things you need to study. I never even 594 00:48:51.079 --> 00:48:52.639 had to crack those. I just went through this course and took all his 595 00:48:52.800 --> 00:48:55.280 course and was able to pass. I got an eighty seven percent. A 596 00:48:55.320 --> 00:48:59.199 lot of people get above ninety percent on the FA Test, which is sixty 597 00:48:59.320 --> 00:49:02.840 questions but really really great course, really thorough course. The guy's name is 598 00:49:02.880 --> 00:49:09.320 Greg Revard. But pilot Distitute dot com if that's something you want to do. 599 00:49:12.039 --> 00:49:15.320 And now for the dad jokes of the week, which is, uh, 600 00:49:16.320 --> 00:49:19.920 you might not know this, Kevin, but this is the high point 601 00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:28.000 of every podcast. So recently I told my wife that a husband is like 602 00:49:28.079 --> 00:49:30.280 a fine wine. We just get better with age. The next day she 603 00:49:30.400 --> 00:49:39.840 locked me in the cellar. Right, So I did a little bit of 604 00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:45.639 putting money on the horses, and I got I was misled, and fortunately 605 00:49:45.960 --> 00:49:51.400 I put a bet on a horse I supposedly had excellent breeding. So in 606 00:49:51.480 --> 00:49:53.079 the race, after the horse left the starting gate, he stopped and closed 607 00:49:53.119 --> 00:50:04.159 it behind him. Get that edge, No excellent breeding, you know manners, 608 00:50:04.239 --> 00:50:07.280 he stopped and closed the starting gate behind him instead of racing. Oh 609 00:50:07.719 --> 00:50:10.360 okay, all right, right. So one of the things with being highly 610 00:50:10.480 --> 00:50:15.360 pedantic and very you know, like the way I was just describing my brain, 611 00:50:16.159 --> 00:50:21.639 is that puns get more and more difficult for me every year. Oh 612 00:50:21.679 --> 00:50:25.320 okay, because I killed a joke, but for you all too, literally, 613 00:50:25.800 --> 00:50:34.400 yeah, so it gets anyway, what do you call a group of 614 00:50:34.559 --> 00:50:45.039 chubby newborns, heavy infantry about that one. That's good. Yes, thank 615 00:50:45.079 --> 00:50:50.360 you. Those are my picks for the week. All right now, Calvin, 616 00:50:50.559 --> 00:50:53.000 now you get to go hog wild. Yeah, so for the picks 617 00:50:53.039 --> 00:50:57.119 of the week. I don't have no dad jokes though, But for me, 618 00:50:58.880 --> 00:51:05.920 I've been really stick in film music. So I played the piano. 619 00:51:05.960 --> 00:51:09.559 I've been playing it for a while now, but late last year I i, 620 00:51:12.239 --> 00:51:16.280 I don't know whether I discovered Handsomer, and what it did in Interstellar 621 00:51:17.400 --> 00:51:22.440 kept me up. Like most nights, I just had it on repeat because 622 00:51:22.519 --> 00:51:25.320 it was just so good. So I was like, I think this is 623 00:51:25.360 --> 00:51:29.719 something I need to do for the next step of like playing music. It's 624 00:51:29.800 --> 00:51:36.719 like taking the emotions in pictures and infusing it in like a musical production. 625 00:51:37.639 --> 00:51:40.760 And it's something I've been like working on, you know, trying to like 626 00:51:40.960 --> 00:51:46.280 see how to really understand it because I am not classically trained. I played 627 00:51:46.320 --> 00:51:51.599 that year, but I feel like this is really really good to like interpret 628 00:51:52.400 --> 00:51:57.800 words and acts in music. So yeah, So Handsomer is someone I've been 629 00:51:57.840 --> 00:52:00.960 studying bowl on that one, and it's local and Interstellar Deprives of the Caribbean 630 00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:07.119 and even the Lion King Yeah, my son is like you. He is. 631 00:52:08.800 --> 00:52:10.840 You know, I take the piano listens too. I just started here 632 00:52:10.880 --> 00:52:14.639 a few months ago, and I'm one of those people that, you know, 633 00:52:14.719 --> 00:52:16.199 I've got to learn how to do this, and it's really slow and 634 00:52:16.320 --> 00:52:20.440 learning how to play without watching the keys and all that kind of stuff. 635 00:52:20.960 --> 00:52:24.280 My son is a musical freak, and that he can just sit down. 636 00:52:24.519 --> 00:52:28.480 I have yet to he he can't. He plays my ear and he can 637 00:52:28.519 --> 00:52:31.880 sit down and watch a demonstration of how to play a song. Uh, 638 00:52:32.280 --> 00:52:36.079 And pretty soon he's playing the stuff like he's been playing for years, with 639 00:52:36.280 --> 00:52:39.679 just a couple of hours worth of work in it keeps here. I am 640 00:52:39.760 --> 00:52:44.039 working and working in ten minutes later, he's playing his beautiful song with all 641 00:52:44.079 --> 00:52:45.000 these chords and he doesn't even know what the chords are. He just knows 642 00:52:45.079 --> 00:52:50.719 they sound good. Yeah, you know, so he's crazy gifted that way. 643 00:52:50.800 --> 00:52:52.480 It's really amazing. I was gifted. So I'm jealous of people like 644 00:52:52.559 --> 00:52:59.880 that. That's amazing, really awesome. All right, Well, with that, 645 00:53:00.079 --> 00:53:06.000 thanks for coming on the show and teaching us about the Boring Stack, 646 00:53:07.440 --> 00:53:13.599 and we look forward to catching up with you again sometime in the future. 647 00:53:14.440 --> 00:53:16.360 Yeah, definitely. I look forward to being here. Thank you, thank 648 00:53:16.400 --> 00:53:22.360 you Steve, thank you a J. This was amazing our pleasure. Sure 649 00:53:22.079 --> 00:53:23.199 have a good one. I