WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.839 --> 00:00:07.719 Going and asking for a government is known for using these kind of regulations. 2 00:00:08.199 --> 00:00:15.320 Governments that like power and control very very dangerous. And you know that if 3 00:00:15.320 --> 00:00:18.640 the government got their hands on AIA technology, it's much more likely they would 4 00:00:18.640 --> 00:00:22.920 do harm than any private industry would do. What's your advice for someone who's 5 00:00:22.960 --> 00:00:27.719 young and motivated and wants to change the world and do something good for society, 6 00:00:29.359 --> 00:00:33.119 Well, stop wanting to want to do something good for society. Let's 7 00:00:33.119 --> 00:00:37.679 start with a big question. What makes us different from all the animals out 8 00:00:37.719 --> 00:00:42.520 there? Well, what makes us difference to our capacity to reason, our 9 00:00:42.520 --> 00:00:49.280 capacity to abstract for abstract thought. The fact is that animals are perceptual beings. 10 00:00:49.320 --> 00:00:54.640 They can they can see, and they can respond, but they cannot 11 00:00:54.640 --> 00:00:59.679 conceptualize, They cannot generalize, they cannot predict the future, they cannot predict 12 00:00:59.719 --> 00:01:03.760 different options, they can't weigh those different options. They can't change their environment 13 00:01:03.840 --> 00:01:08.959 in any significant ways. You know, with exception of maybe beavers and birds 14 00:01:08.959 --> 00:01:15.239 who create nests. You know, human beings built skyscrapers and we build computers 15 00:01:15.280 --> 00:01:21.400 and we can actually change And maybe what's behind much of that or essential features 16 00:01:21.400 --> 00:01:25.760 the fact that human beings have free will and animals do not. Human beings 17 00:01:25.799 --> 00:01:30.640 have the capacity to choose, you know, to use their reason, to 18 00:01:30.760 --> 00:01:37.840 use their thinking capacity, to use their rational mind or not. And animals 19 00:01:37.840 --> 00:01:42.599 just despond stimuli based on based on programming that is embedded in their in their 20 00:01:42.640 --> 00:01:49.519 genetic code. So you reject the evolutionary psychology argument that humans just evolved to 21 00:01:49.560 --> 00:01:55.040 be in a particular bubble and cannot explain or understand certain things that are beyond 22 00:01:55.079 --> 00:02:00.640 their capabilities. No, I mean I don't know what human beings cannot explain 23 00:02:00.760 --> 00:02:07.760 or understand. Every time somebody is assumed that we cannot know something, it 24 00:02:07.799 --> 00:02:10.719 turns out that later behind we can. I don't think that any metaphysical barriers 25 00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:15.520 for us to be able to understand things. I've reject a lot of the 26 00:02:15.639 --> 00:02:21.520 evolutionary psychology. I don't reject evolution. So there's no question that there are 27 00:02:21.520 --> 00:02:24.080 elements in the structure of our brain and the way we are you know, 28 00:02:24.120 --> 00:02:28.919 the way we are designed in as not designed, but the way we are 29 00:02:28.919 --> 00:02:39.719 biologically constructed and exist is determined by by evolutionary processes. The the great innovation 30 00:02:40.719 --> 00:02:50.840 that the evolution in a sense has with human beings is that it didn't have 31 00:02:50.919 --> 00:02:53.439 to design the entire code. It didn't have to have all the elements of 32 00:02:53.479 --> 00:02:59.560 the code in so, uh, you know, we are we are self 33 00:02:59.599 --> 00:03:04.400 programming beings, so we can actually design our own code. And that's a 34 00:03:04.599 --> 00:03:10.240 huge for survival perspective, a huge benefit because if our environment changes, then 35 00:03:10.240 --> 00:03:13.840 we just need to figure out how to survive in a new environment. We 36 00:03:13.879 --> 00:03:20.400 don't have to wait multiple generations they evolve, you know, genetic answers or 37 00:03:20.439 --> 00:03:23.400 not to evolve in therefore go extinct. We can actually solve problems, we 38 00:03:23.400 --> 00:03:29.719 can figure it out, and we can survive in a variety of different environments. 39 00:03:29.719 --> 00:03:34.240 So as the environment changes. So it's a it's a massive leap forward 40 00:03:34.599 --> 00:03:43.599 in from a volutionary perspective where the coding is done through reason, by by 41 00:03:43.639 --> 00:03:49.639 the rational being in response to changing environment, in response to an environment that 42 00:03:49.719 --> 00:03:53.800 now the human beings can actually change for their own benefit. A lot of 43 00:03:53.800 --> 00:03:59.000 people reject the notion of God, but stick with the morality that comes with 44 00:03:59.120 --> 00:04:03.240 religion. So with Christianity, it is obviously that of altruism and self sacrifice. 45 00:04:03.840 --> 00:04:08.479 Quite a few people who are atheists still seemed to be taking the morality 46 00:04:08.479 --> 00:04:12.520 of Christianity. Seriously, it's almost like rejecting God is the easy part, 47 00:04:12.560 --> 00:04:15.720 but rejecting moral the morality takes more effort. Why do you think that is? 48 00:04:15.839 --> 00:04:21.800 Why is it difficult to accept the morality of selfishness? I mean partially 49 00:04:21.839 --> 00:04:30.000 because the Christians and the philosophers that have been influenced so much by Christianity have 50 00:04:30.120 --> 00:04:39.839 been so effective in setting both in articulating in the case for what they want 51 00:04:39.439 --> 00:04:44.879 for this morality, but more importantly in making it seem like there is no 52 00:04:44.920 --> 00:04:48.800 alternative, right, any any alternative is just dismissed offhand. It's not even 53 00:04:48.839 --> 00:04:54.920 considered, it's not even really thought through. So they position the world as 54 00:04:55.240 --> 00:04:59.160 you can either be an altruist which means self sacrifice, which means you know, 55 00:04:59.240 --> 00:05:01.319 living for the sake of others, or you're a lying, cheating, 56 00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:06.439 stealing s O B. And there's really no alternative, and they can comprehend 57 00:05:06.439 --> 00:05:13.040 an alternative beyond that. And they've conditioned our thinking to think of the other 58 00:05:13.519 --> 00:05:15.439 when it comes to morality. Our mind automatically goes through, well, how 59 00:05:15.480 --> 00:05:19.399 to treat other people? What about other people? So it's very hard for 60 00:05:19.439 --> 00:05:25.279 people to conceive of an alternative to run it through. And then the other 61 00:05:25.319 --> 00:05:30.879 thing they've been very good at is this is, you know, in a 62 00:05:30.959 --> 00:05:35.720 sense, separating morality from reason, separating morality from morality from reality and from 63 00:05:35.800 --> 00:05:41.519 values. Uh well, and from and from nature, and from from our 64 00:05:41.639 --> 00:05:46.399 own biology, and from from the reality around us an ability to think rationally. 65 00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:48.800 So that where do you get one morality? Well, if you can't 66 00:05:48.839 --> 00:05:53.800 get it from reason, then oh well then we can't get over a revelation 67 00:05:53.879 --> 00:05:59.519 because we're not mistakes. Well when our religious maybe we still are mistakes of 68 00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:03.279 Plato certainly gets it from revelation, even though he's not religious in a conventional 69 00:06:03.319 --> 00:06:08.759 sense, but he's still a mystic. So they still find different kind of 70 00:06:08.759 --> 00:06:17.079 mystical ways in which to derive their uh, their morality. Or well, 71 00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:21.399 it's just from society. You know, it's worked so far for humanity. 72 00:06:21.720 --> 00:06:26.120 Maybe maybe maybe that's why it's good. You know, we've we've come this 73 00:06:26.279 --> 00:06:30.600 far. Let's just stick with the current morality or take their the Christian morality 74 00:06:30.639 --> 00:06:34.439 and tweak it a little bit, make it a little less offensive, and 75 00:06:34.600 --> 00:06:39.360 we can live with that. You know. Somebody like uh, you know, 76 00:06:39.439 --> 00:06:45.279 some of them try to come up with a reasoned approach the morality based 77 00:06:45.279 --> 00:06:51.120 on reason. But but they they, for whatever reason, they limit themselves 78 00:06:51.319 --> 00:06:59.560 to a rational explanation for the Christian morality from morality of altruism. They can't 79 00:06:59.560 --> 00:07:04.439 conceive eva what Ryan's geniuses that she starts from scratch, that she says, 80 00:07:04.480 --> 00:07:10.079 why do we need morality? What's it for? And she doesn't just assume 81 00:07:11.399 --> 00:07:15.199 morality is what people say it is. She doesn't assume morality is how people 82 00:07:15.279 --> 00:07:20.279 behave, how quote good people behave. She doesn't. She asks the fundamental 83 00:07:20.319 --> 00:07:23.680 question, what do we need it for? Why do we need it? 84 00:07:23.759 --> 00:07:28.319 What is it? And she she builds from there, and therefore she can 85 00:07:28.720 --> 00:07:38.199 completely reconceive and or think of completely new approaches because she's not hemmed in by, 86 00:07:38.879 --> 00:07:42.560 you know, by the conventional view of And look, it turns out 87 00:07:43.600 --> 00:07:46.480 that it takes a real genius to do that, right, So all these 88 00:07:46.519 --> 00:07:51.360 atheists are really really smart people, but they're not geniuses. And it takes 89 00:07:51.399 --> 00:07:59.000 a real genius and somebody with an immense originality and honesty to be able to 90 00:07:59.040 --> 00:08:05.120 reject status quo to such an extat as to basically formulate a completely new approach 91 00:08:05.199 --> 00:08:11.800 to morality from scratch. Yeah, going on that there seems to be a 92 00:08:11.879 --> 00:08:16.879 widely held assumption that inequality is bad and if there's anything we can do to 93 00:08:16.920 --> 00:08:22.120 decrease inequality, we should do it. What's wrong with that assumption? Well, 94 00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:26.079 what's wrong with that assumption is well, first, it's it's it's meaning 95 00:08:26.079 --> 00:08:28.759 engless. Right, what does inequality mean? Do you mean equality, inequality 96 00:08:28.759 --> 00:08:33.480 of wealth, inequality of income, inequality of brain power, inequality of good 97 00:08:33.480 --> 00:08:39.720 looks in equality of what? Right? And so people throw out inequality without 98 00:08:39.720 --> 00:08:45.159 really defining it and without talking about it. And but but there is an 99 00:08:45.159 --> 00:08:50.480 implicit assumption in that, And the implicit assumption in that is that there's some 100 00:08:50.759 --> 00:08:58.559 virtue to all of us being the same in some important categories. So you 101 00:08:58.600 --> 00:09:05.080 know that that that sameness is good, and that just is mind boggling and 102 00:09:05.440 --> 00:09:09.320 silly. I mean, what is what is so good about sameness? There's 103 00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:13.080 nothing good about saying us. Indeed, as as we've seen, it is 104 00:09:13.080 --> 00:09:16.039 the division of labor. It is the fact that we have different values. 105 00:09:16.120 --> 00:09:20.399 That it's the reason we trade, because because we have different estimates on the 106 00:09:20.480 --> 00:09:24.960 value of any particular thing, it's the reason we specialize and go into different 107 00:09:24.960 --> 00:09:31.720 fields. So and that enhances human will being dramatically. We all have different 108 00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:35.919 values. We clearly all have different biologies, and we have different uh you 109 00:09:35.919 --> 00:09:37.600 know, we grow up in different environments that we make different choices. So 110 00:09:37.600 --> 00:09:41.919 we're all fundamentally different. So there's this metaphysical fact that they're trying to reject 111 00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:46.840 of the fact that we're all different. And and so then then they say, 112 00:09:46.879 --> 00:09:52.679 well, no, it's what we're really concerned about is inequality of wealth 113 00:09:54.120 --> 00:09:58.000 or income. And then and then the question is, okay, but where 114 00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:00.759 does wealth and income come from? And white you care so much? What 115 00:10:00.840 --> 00:10:05.720 do you care so much about wealth and income? And what they reject is 116 00:10:05.759 --> 00:10:11.759 the idea that people create wealth and that income is something that's earned and I 117 00:10:13.080 --> 00:10:18.120 deserved. You know, you saw this in Obama's famous speech was twenty twelve 118 00:10:18.279 --> 00:10:22.879 or twenty fourteen where he said you didn't build that. You know, businessmen 119 00:10:22.919 --> 00:10:26.639 didn't create what they created. You know, we're all in a sense in 120 00:10:26.679 --> 00:10:33.360 the speech, implicit and explicit, we're all creations of our environment, creations 121 00:10:33.519 --> 00:10:37.000 of our genes. You're not responsible for anything. And that has a certain 122 00:10:37.039 --> 00:10:41.159 philosophical tradition, certainly going back to John Walls who said, you know which 123 00:10:41.159 --> 00:10:43.600 is products of our genes and our environment. And you're not responsible for your 124 00:10:43.639 --> 00:10:48.919 genes and environment. Therefore you don't deserve anything you got because whatever you produce, 125 00:10:48.039 --> 00:10:52.360 whatever talent you have, they're not yours. That just happened, happened 126 00:10:52.360 --> 00:10:58.519 to land on you. That's a weird formulation, because they are yours. 127 00:10:58.600 --> 00:11:05.039 They are you, even if even if you got them from your your genes, 128 00:11:05.080 --> 00:11:09.000 what are you to logic? You to logic than you are your genes, 129 00:11:09.000 --> 00:11:11.679 So they are you. But all of these theories, you know, 130 00:11:11.759 --> 00:11:18.200 reject the idea that you as a agent, as a have free will and 131 00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:22.000 therefore have responsibility for your own successes and your own failures to a logic extent. 132 00:11:22.440 --> 00:11:30.480 So and therefore you just don't deserve what you get because you're not responsible 133 00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:33.440 for it. You don't deserve what you get because it's it's in a sense 134 00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:39.879 of determined that you will get that anyway. It's deterministic, and you don't 135 00:11:39.879 --> 00:11:43.720 deserve what you get because we have this ideal of equality that you must be 136 00:11:43.759 --> 00:11:48.759 sacrificed towards. And that's altruism. So it's this combination of determinism, altruism, 137 00:11:48.759 --> 00:11:54.399 and collectivism. Uh and and the inequality or the the worship of equality 138 00:11:54.960 --> 00:11:58.600 is kind of the culmination of all of that. It's the it's the integration 139 00:11:58.639 --> 00:12:05.799 of all all of that into into this egalitarian ideology that it tries to tries 140 00:12:05.840 --> 00:12:11.879 to bring about some kind of equality of outcome among all of us. It's 141 00:12:11.879 --> 00:12:16.120 it's impossible to do without the use of physical force. It's impossible to do 142 00:12:16.159 --> 00:12:20.399 without violating individual rights on a massive scale. And it's impossible to do without 143 00:12:20.399 --> 00:12:26.639 restraining people's freedom and therefore their ability to create the wealth and prosperity that we 144 00:12:26.679 --> 00:12:33.399 all enjoy. What's your take on the growing domurism surrounding artificial intelligence, all 145 00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:37.320 these otherwise smart people arguing for regulation and sewing down a progress in the field. 146 00:12:37.039 --> 00:12:41.759 I mean, in a sense, there's nothing new. There's always been 147 00:12:41.799 --> 00:12:50.559 people who have been doomsay as about growing technology, and and so in that 148 00:12:50.600 --> 00:12:52.519 sense, it's not new. What's new is the fact that the people leading 149 00:12:52.600 --> 00:12:56.840 the charge in the technology itself are the ones who are most skeptical about it, 150 00:12:56.879 --> 00:13:03.200 are the ones who are most dooming loom about it. But essentially all 151 00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:09.200 of this comes down to people not really understanding the nature of thinking and intelligence 152 00:13:09.200 --> 00:13:13.600 and reason and and the value added that it all provides. Right, So 153 00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:16.399 let's say you could build a machine that became conscious and it was smarter than 154 00:13:16.440 --> 00:13:20.759 all human beings. Well, that machine would want to trade with human beings 155 00:13:20.799 --> 00:13:26.200 because it would realize other human beings have reason, they have values. I 156 00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:30.279 can produce values, they can produce values. There's a there's a great interchange 157 00:13:30.320 --> 00:13:37.600 ability to interchange here and exchange. So they don't understand reason, they don't 158 00:13:37.679 --> 00:13:41.600 understand trade, and then on top of that, they don't understand consciousness. 159 00:13:41.840 --> 00:13:43.919 I mean, machines are not going to be conscious. They're not going to 160 00:13:45.000 --> 00:13:48.440 be you know, it's not like a machine will have values and goals. 161 00:13:48.360 --> 00:13:54.440 And the actual value added of artificial what they call outificial intelligence, is massive. 162 00:13:54.879 --> 00:13:58.960 I mean, basically, it is a way to dramatically increase their fficial 163 00:14:00.200 --> 00:14:03.759 see of the human mind to efficiency, the ability of human beings to produce, 164 00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:07.879 the ability of human beings to create. I mean, if if much 165 00:14:07.879 --> 00:14:15.120 of the technological revolution or the industrial revolution has replaced muscle with machines, what 166 00:14:15.200 --> 00:14:20.919 AI has the potential of doing is taking certain tasks of the mind that are 167 00:14:20.960 --> 00:14:26.679 non creative and replacing them with machines and then freeing the mind up feeing individuals 168 00:14:26.799 --> 00:14:33.639 up to be to be engaged in those activities that again we are you don't 169 00:14:33.679 --> 00:14:39.679 have a comparative advantage in doing creativity being one. And of course valuing Machines 170 00:14:39.679 --> 00:14:45.480 don't value, So we have to provide the context in which machines are producing 171 00:14:45.519 --> 00:14:50.360 goods because why are they Why would they want to produce the goods? They 172 00:14:50.440 --> 00:14:54.000 don't consume them, So they has to be. There has to be, 173 00:14:54.039 --> 00:14:56.159 they have to be valued, They have to be valuers and only human beings 174 00:14:56.200 --> 00:15:01.200 giving value. So no, I mean, look, just in any technology, 175 00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:03.919 there's dangers, right you can you can you can run people over with 176 00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:09.240 a car, you can cut people over with a knife, you can bomb 177 00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:13.200 people within with nuclear weapons. But the question is who is in the best 178 00:15:13.200 --> 00:15:18.519 position to create safeguards so the technology is not used to abuse people in the 179 00:15:18.639 --> 00:15:22.840 abuse rights And I think the best people are the people who understand the technology 180 00:15:22.919 --> 00:15:26.639 the best, and those are the people within the industry, those are the 181 00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:30.080 people who are building it. And if you look at if you look at 182 00:15:30.120 --> 00:15:33.000 people like like I forget his name now, the guy, the guy who's 183 00:15:33.039 --> 00:15:39.679 advocating the guy who founded AI CEO of AI Open AI what's that, Sam 184 00:15:39.720 --> 00:15:43.279 Altman, Sam Altman, I mean, these are smart, really smart guys. 185 00:15:43.639 --> 00:15:48.000 They're generally benevolent. He's not trying to take over the world and destroy 186 00:15:48.039 --> 00:15:52.720 the planet or destroy life on Earth. I trust him more than I trust 187 00:15:52.879 --> 00:15:58.759 a group of international global bureaucrats to regulate things and to make sure it doesn't 188 00:15:58.759 --> 00:16:07.240 happen and something bad doesn't happen. So look, I give this example on 189 00:16:07.279 --> 00:16:10.720 the show I did the other day. It's you know, in the biotic 190 00:16:10.759 --> 00:16:14.879 industry, you can you can cause a lot of harm, particularly now a 191 00:16:14.919 --> 00:16:18.200 genus licing and with the with the our ability to change the genetic makeup of 192 00:16:18.279 --> 00:16:23.600 human beings even before birth, you can really do some crazy stuff and build, 193 00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:29.639 you know, create monsters and hurt human life and hurt human ability. 194 00:16:29.759 --> 00:16:33.840 And scientists are not doing that, not because these government regulations, but because 195 00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:36.600 they got together and they said, look, the science are still young, 196 00:16:36.639 --> 00:16:40.559 we're not sure exactly what we're doing, we're still learning. Let's not do 197 00:16:40.679 --> 00:16:44.679 certain things, Let's let's figure it out as we go, Let's go slowly 198 00:16:44.720 --> 00:16:48.200 where it's dangerous, where we're not sure. And for the most part they've 199 00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:56.000 done that, and you know, without hurting real scientific progress. Why can't 200 00:16:56.000 --> 00:17:00.200 the AI community get together and do the same thing and basically set up like 201 00:17:00.639 --> 00:17:04.160 a group within the industry that says, here are the dangers, here are 202 00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:07.920 the things that we think we could go wrong. Let's make sure we don't 203 00:17:07.000 --> 00:17:12.119 do these things. Let's monitor each other without giving AWA any trade secrets. 204 00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:18.039 Let's let's try to let's try to just just live up too high ethical standards 205 00:17:18.200 --> 00:17:19.839 in terms of what we're doing, so we don't cause more harm than good. 206 00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:25.119 That's the way it should be done. People like Sam all point of 207 00:17:25.160 --> 00:17:30.880 people that I would trust engaged in something like that, But going and asking 208 00:17:30.920 --> 00:17:34.680 for a government that is known for abusing these kind of regulations, governments that 209 00:17:34.960 --> 00:17:41.640 like power and control very very dangerous. And you know that if the government 210 00:17:41.640 --> 00:17:45.960 got their hands on AI technology, it's much more likely they would do harm 211 00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:51.640 than any private industry would do harm. So funny you mentioned trade and values, 212 00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:57.559 because so there's AI and there's a GI, right, and artificial intelligence 213 00:17:57.599 --> 00:18:00.960 is basically like the chat gp D kind of stuff, and that's nowhere close 214 00:18:02.039 --> 00:18:07.799 to AGI. And I guess that also falls back to like a false understanding 215 00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:12.960 of epistemology or reason, as you call it, and what I was so, 216 00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:18.599 like, my best reputation of this is that have you heard of the 217 00:18:18.680 --> 00:18:25.480 paper clip maximizer argument, Like that's basically, if we give the AI a 218 00:18:25.519 --> 00:18:30.839 goal that to turn to make the maximum number of paper clips it can, 219 00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:34.440 then what we'll do is like it'll even turn us humans into paper clips, 220 00:18:34.440 --> 00:18:40.160 because if that's its goal, it's just focused on that. But so if 221 00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:44.119 it's an AI artificially intelligence, if it's not a GI, then if it 222 00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:45.599 can do that, then we can just obviously plug it out right, we 223 00:18:45.640 --> 00:18:52.119 won't let let it happen. But if it's an artificial general intelligence, then 224 00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:56.519 I don't think that it would be so focused on that one goal so as 225 00:18:56.559 --> 00:19:03.119 to make even humans paper clips if it's smart enough. So it depends what 226 00:19:03.160 --> 00:19:07.480 you mean what we mean by it but official general intelligence, And it also 227 00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:10.839 depends on whether that is even a possibility. That is it can you create 228 00:19:10.839 --> 00:19:18.559 general intelligence you know, from from from electrons in on silicone, you know, 229 00:19:18.599 --> 00:19:25.039 and it's it's these are still like I am skeptical that you can create 230 00:19:25.119 --> 00:19:29.559 human like intelligence on a chip. I think you have to have biology to 231 00:19:29.559 --> 00:19:33.839 create human like intelligence. And indeed, human like intelligence cannot be separate if 232 00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:37.200 our ability from our ability to value, and to be able to value, 233 00:19:37.240 --> 00:19:44.079 you have to be conscious. And consciousness is a is a phenomena of life, 234 00:19:44.839 --> 00:19:47.640 and therefore to be able to be conscious, you have to be alive. 235 00:19:48.920 --> 00:19:52.440 So we can't create life. We don't know how to create life yet. 236 00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:56.039 We haven't created life in a laboratory yet. And you don't create life 237 00:19:56.079 --> 00:20:00.240 for silicone you as far as we know, the way to create life with 238 00:20:00.440 --> 00:20:03.519 corbon. So there's still a lot of steps that need to be taken before 239 00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:08.680 we can get to human beings creating a life form that has intelligence similar to 240 00:20:10.119 --> 00:20:15.000 humans. And if we can and that life form is a valuer, then 241 00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:18.880 we trade with it. And if and that's great because it'll be able to 242 00:20:18.920 --> 00:20:23.799 provide us with fantastic services because it'll be super smart, and we'll provide it 243 00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:30.319 with whatever it turns out it needs, are its desire or its values are. 244 00:20:32.960 --> 00:20:38.200 So you know, this idea that reasons somehow leads to a being that 245 00:20:38.279 --> 00:20:42.519 wants to turn human beings in the paper clips, it just right. And 246 00:20:44.039 --> 00:20:48.200 it's true that if it's a dumb machine and it's still turn everything into paper 247 00:20:48.200 --> 00:20:51.920 clips, that will turn everything into paperclips but that means it's dumb, right, 248 00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:56.519 that's by definition what dumbness is. It can't think beyond that. Once 249 00:20:56.519 --> 00:21:00.240 it can think beyond that, and certainly once it can value why, Yeah, 250 00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:04.119 it would ask itself why. It would have its own morality, its 251 00:21:04.119 --> 00:21:08.720 own kind of understanding of the world. And maybe it would start with our 252 00:21:08.799 --> 00:21:14.599 values, because we created them. And if we did, which is right 253 00:21:14.599 --> 00:21:18.160 now at least a far possibility, if we created them, then it would 254 00:21:18.160 --> 00:21:22.960 be like it's our child, you know, like another person, and they 255 00:21:23.000 --> 00:21:29.000 will certainly have our own values, like because they were scial values. The 256 00:21:29.039 --> 00:21:32.319 mall values would be the same, because the mall values of all values for 257 00:21:32.319 --> 00:21:37.839 a living being with a consciousness and with free will and with reason. So 258 00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:41.319 if you create a being with reason, they would have it would have very 259 00:21:41.319 --> 00:21:47.279 similar values to and the smarter they are, the easy it will be to 260 00:21:47.319 --> 00:21:51.960 show them that these are the true values. Do you think about alien civilizations 261 00:21:51.960 --> 00:21:56.359 at all? If there are people else where? I don't, you know, 262 00:21:56.799 --> 00:22:00.720 I get it, I like say fiction, I don't, But it 263 00:22:00.759 --> 00:22:06.119 seems like a waste of time to think about it, because either there are 264 00:22:06.160 --> 00:22:10.240 alien civilizations or they're no alien civilizations. It doesn't matter to my view of 265 00:22:10.279 --> 00:22:14.160 the world. It doesn't change anything about my life. If they show up, 266 00:22:14.200 --> 00:22:17.440 it might eat that'll be interesting and fun. But as long as they 267 00:22:17.440 --> 00:22:22.000 don't show up, the speculation doesn't interest to me that much, other than 268 00:22:22.039 --> 00:22:27.160 if it's a part of a science fiction story. When their success or demise 269 00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:33.200 also depend upon their ability to create wealth and their culture and whether it promotes 270 00:22:33.519 --> 00:22:37.240 or inhibits the growth of knowledge. Absolutely, I mean, you know it. 271 00:22:38.119 --> 00:22:45.799 The specific biology will determine what constitutes wealth. Maybe, but but yes, 272 00:22:45.960 --> 00:22:51.960 I mean I'm not I'm not fearful of aliens coming here to enslave all 273 00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:55.279 people. If there's that advance, then the slave is no good. If 274 00:22:55.279 --> 00:22:57.359 they're that advanced, they would realize that the best way to deal with us 275 00:22:57.440 --> 00:23:02.920 is to trade, and and yes we can't. Maybe, you know, 276 00:23:03.119 --> 00:23:07.720 the whole point of comparative advantage is that you do that even if you're inferior 277 00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:15.160 to somebody else in your ability to produce, then producing everything doesn't make any 278 00:23:15.160 --> 00:23:17.599 sense if you can produce some of it. Right, If you can produce 279 00:23:17.640 --> 00:23:21.640 something, even if you're inferior in that one thing, it's they should focus 280 00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:26.519 on the things that they have a the largest advantages and let you produce the 281 00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:33.759 things that you have that you that where they have the smallest advantage and everybody's 282 00:23:33.839 --> 00:23:37.200 everybody benefits when that happens. And that's true with aliens as well as it 283 00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:42.640 is with other countries well other individuals. What are some popular movies besides Avatar 284 00:23:42.759 --> 00:23:48.160 Thatty deeply philosophically disagree with. We can actually add books to that same question, 285 00:23:48.200 --> 00:23:52.440 fiction or nonfiction. Oh, questions like this where I have to have 286 00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:55.240 to dig into my memory are really really hard for me. I mean, 287 00:23:55.759 --> 00:23:59.480 there are very few movies that have a good philosophy. Most movies have bad 288 00:23:59.480 --> 00:24:07.880 philosophy. Is you know, think about the the explicit altruism in in in 289 00:24:07.960 --> 00:24:12.039 a lot of the superhuman movies, the duty premise that they have in terms 290 00:24:12.119 --> 00:24:17.880 of saving the world or saving civilization, or saving this person, the commandment 291 00:24:17.920 --> 00:24:21.079 I shall not kill that. I don't know what is it Superman or Batman 292 00:24:21.200 --> 00:24:26.480 or somebody UH has to live by even even as people are being slotted left 293 00:24:26.519 --> 00:24:33.000 and right by the bad guys. So so, you know, most movies 294 00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:37.599 have at their core some kind of bad philosophy. It's rare to find a 295 00:24:37.640 --> 00:24:41.160 movie where you can say, yeah, that right on it, or think 296 00:24:41.160 --> 00:24:45.279 of Game of Thrones, right. Game of Thrones is a good example. 297 00:24:45.319 --> 00:24:48.519 It's it was a huge hit, very very popular in the culture. But 298 00:24:48.640 --> 00:24:52.319 what is it about. It's about power, it's about force, it's about 299 00:24:52.680 --> 00:24:57.480 it's about they know, it's not about values. It's it's kind of intriguing 300 00:24:57.519 --> 00:25:03.839 to see. The whole Bowe is about how force is being used and the 301 00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:07.720 only alternative is to use force. There's an alternative to force. The only 302 00:25:07.759 --> 00:25:10.599 way to gain the hinder throne is through the use of force. And then 303 00:25:10.640 --> 00:25:15.839 you just see the different characters using force in different ways. It's a you 304 00:25:15.880 --> 00:25:19.000 know, dog eat dog world. It's a zero sum world. It's not 305 00:25:19.039 --> 00:25:23.960 a it's not an even so even when you have a character who who's freeing 306 00:25:23.960 --> 00:25:27.519 the slaves and views has some positive view in the end of the day when 307 00:25:27.559 --> 00:25:34.359 she needs to when when when when she gains power, she's going to rule 308 00:25:34.640 --> 00:25:40.160 and she's going to slave all of us, so, you know, but 309 00:25:40.240 --> 00:25:44.079 that that comes from a recognition maybe that force is bad. But when no 310 00:25:44.200 --> 00:25:48.200 alternative, no idea of what alternative there is, And in that sense, 311 00:25:48.200 --> 00:25:52.039 there's no real heroes in the show because it can't conceive of a hero. 312 00:25:52.400 --> 00:25:56.440 It can't think of what that would look like, what that would be. 313 00:25:56.160 --> 00:26:02.599 So I can't really it's very hard to find a show doesn't have some element 314 00:26:02.640 --> 00:26:08.839 of altruism or collectivism or uh, subjective apistemology, or a lack of understanding 315 00:26:08.839 --> 00:26:12.000 of the world of the mind or you know, something like that. So 316 00:26:14.519 --> 00:26:18.799 one has to find whatever good there is in the movies that exist and not 317 00:26:19.079 --> 00:26:22.319 not why we too much about that. You know, some movies are so 318 00:26:22.359 --> 00:26:26.839 bad philosophically Avatar, that's just not worth watching in my view. But most 319 00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:30.160 movies are mixed, and you've got to enjoy the good parts and and uh 320 00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:36.599 and and live with that. What do you think about the current education system? 321 00:26:36.640 --> 00:26:38.279 Oh? Yeah, I mean it's awful. I mean it's easy. 322 00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:44.440 It's awful. It it there's, there's it's it's an an educational system that 323 00:26:44.519 --> 00:26:49.880 promotes thinking. It's not an education system that helps us or helps us gain 324 00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:53.680 the skill of thinking, or teaches us how to think. And it's also 325 00:26:53.759 --> 00:26:57.799 not an educational system teaches us facts about the world said, it defaults on 326 00:26:57.920 --> 00:27:02.519 both of the main responsive Well, is an educational system train us and teach 327 00:27:02.599 --> 00:27:07.839 us how to use the tool that we have our mental capacity and teach us 328 00:27:07.880 --> 00:27:11.079 about the facts as they're known today, about the world out there, which 329 00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:17.559 which we need to we need to have, you know it. The educational 330 00:27:17.559 --> 00:27:22.799 system either teaches us dogmas that we have to memorize or we have to buy 331 00:27:22.839 --> 00:27:26.400 into, or it teaches us that our emotions are more important than using our 332 00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:32.680 mind and reasoning through problems. And it teaches us that, at least to 333 00:27:32.759 --> 00:27:36.519 some extent, that facts a subjective, that who knows what the truth is 334 00:27:36.759 --> 00:27:44.200 and history is, you know, is an issue of perspective, and and 335 00:27:44.200 --> 00:27:48.559 they'll take it seriously and generally don't take knowledge or thinking too seriously. All 336 00:27:48.559 --> 00:27:52.759 of that, I think is what is projected by the educational system, and 337 00:27:52.000 --> 00:28:00.279 it's the consequence are in a sense of dumbing down of of of people Americans 338 00:28:00.640 --> 00:28:04.640 or really any educational system. Some are better than others, but not a 339 00:28:04.799 --> 00:28:11.440 good And what we don't have is real competition in education and real a real 340 00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:15.119 competition in people proposing different ways to do education right and to do education well. 341 00:28:17.079 --> 00:28:19.519 And we don't even have really a discussion about what are the standards right 342 00:28:19.519 --> 00:28:23.400 which we would measure what a good educational system is and what a bad educational 343 00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:26.480 system is, So there's a lot of work to be done in education. 344 00:28:26.519 --> 00:28:30.880 There's some people doing good work in education, but there's a lot of work 345 00:28:30.920 --> 00:28:33.400 to be done in education to kind of unpackage all that and figure out and 346 00:28:33.480 --> 00:28:40.720 figure out kind of an ideal or or a better system. I saw in 347 00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:44.960 a video if you talking a little bit about the Beginning of Infinity, the 348 00:28:44.960 --> 00:28:49.119 book by Day of Deutsche, and you say his epistemology just keeps missing, 349 00:28:49.119 --> 00:28:55.039 and that you wish someone would give him to read introduction to objectivist epistemology. 350 00:28:55.319 --> 00:28:57.599 I'd love to talk about Yeah, I'd love to talk to you about that, 351 00:28:57.640 --> 00:29:00.240 because I think iron Rand is awesome and she has a powerful defense of 352 00:29:00.279 --> 00:29:04.079 capitalism and the critique of altruism. So also it's just so inspiring in pro 353 00:29:04.160 --> 00:29:11.440 progress. But I fundamentally disagree with her epistemology. And I had your friend 354 00:29:11.720 --> 00:29:17.640 and colleague Don Watkins on this podcast and we talked a little bit about ransompistemology, 355 00:29:17.680 --> 00:29:21.559 but I didn't find it very convincing. So I very much inclined towards 356 00:29:21.559 --> 00:29:26.559 deepistemology explained by Carl Popper first and improved upon by David Deutsch in his books. 357 00:29:27.559 --> 00:29:32.960 To start with maybe what do you think about the beginning of infinity? 358 00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:36.960 Yeah, so actually being infinity similar to your Stein Man. I mean, 359 00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:40.720 I love I love what David Deutsch has to say about progress, and I 360 00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:48.799 love his confidence and optimism and in human you know, in human beings and 361 00:29:48.920 --> 00:29:55.160 ability to change, to change that environment and to improve our environment, and 362 00:29:55.599 --> 00:29:57.680 to manipulate, if you will, the Adams in the world, to constantly 363 00:29:57.720 --> 00:30:04.000 make them, make life better and make the universe different. And his personology 364 00:30:04.039 --> 00:30:08.000 is completely screwed up, and it's completely messed up, and it makes absolutely 365 00:30:08.079 --> 00:30:14.279 zero sense. And you know, I find that and I think that, 366 00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:17.240 of course, that comes from Papa. I think Papa is is completely wrong. 367 00:30:17.440 --> 00:30:19.559 David Deutsch is a lot better than Papa, I think, primarily because 368 00:30:19.559 --> 00:30:25.720 he has a much better view of progress and humanity and I think Papa is 369 00:30:25.920 --> 00:30:30.519 much more mixed in that sense, and Deutsch is much better. But yeah, 370 00:30:32.160 --> 00:30:34.880 the pistemology is completely screwed up. And it's it's mind boggling to me 371 00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:44.640 reading reading the book because basically it's and I can't and I don't have the 372 00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:47.480 book in front of me, so I don't have the exact sections. But 373 00:30:47.799 --> 00:30:52.880 basically, these massive contradictions where the epistemology is completely tripping him up. He's 374 00:30:52.920 --> 00:31:00.039 making this argument about a human progress that requires rans epistemology, and he's advocating 375 00:31:00.079 --> 00:31:03.440 in opostemology that in a sense, it is the exactly opposite, which undermines 376 00:31:04.200 --> 00:31:11.200 his whole argument about progress. So it's and it's yeah, so it's it's 377 00:31:11.240 --> 00:31:15.319 it's so it was so frustrating to read Devo. There were chapters, there 378 00:31:15.359 --> 00:31:19.759 were Wow, you know, he makes he makes the best argument possible, 379 00:31:19.799 --> 00:31:25.000 for most inspiring argument, and then and then the next chapter is like, 380 00:31:25.160 --> 00:31:27.839 what the hell what's he talking about? He doesn't know what he's talking What 381 00:31:27.920 --> 00:31:33.559 do you think is fundamentally wrong with noises with a stemology? Well, the 382 00:31:33.599 --> 00:31:37.720 fundamental problem is that he doesn't start with reality. He doesn't start with facts, 383 00:31:38.039 --> 00:31:42.200 he doesn't start with evidence, and so he doesn't start with human senses. 384 00:31:42.640 --> 00:31:48.720 He starts with Plato. He started who supposed he rejects what he spots, 385 00:31:48.759 --> 00:31:52.640 starts with Plato. He starts with you know, I think, therefore 386 00:31:52.680 --> 00:31:56.799 I am. He starts inside his own mind, and there's nothing inside his 387 00:31:56.839 --> 00:32:01.160 own mind. There's zero inside his own mind until he uses his senses to 388 00:32:01.440 --> 00:32:07.400 gain facts about the world out there. So the beginning point in epistemology, 389 00:32:07.400 --> 00:32:10.440 at the beginning point in thinking, the beginning points in Uh, you know, 390 00:32:10.519 --> 00:32:16.640 cognition has to be what's out there, identification, identifying what exists in 391 00:32:16.680 --> 00:32:22.319 the world. And only then can you think. There's just no thinking that 392 00:32:22.359 --> 00:32:25.599 can happen Before then it's there's a there's a tool with no content, but 393 00:32:25.640 --> 00:32:30.359 the content comes from outside the content. You're not born with content, you're 394 00:32:30.400 --> 00:32:34.680 born with the tool. Do you think there's no sort of thinborne knowledge that 395 00:32:35.200 --> 00:32:37.599 may possess when where you start out, Oh, there's no thin bone I 396 00:32:37.599 --> 00:32:42.000 don't know what thin born knowledge is. But there's no knowledge, So I 397 00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:45.519 don't know what thin or thick bone knowledge. There's no knowledge. So like 398 00:32:45.799 --> 00:32:47.640 if you have as a tool, you have senses, and you have a 399 00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:52.000 tool that integrates the information that comes from those senses and integrates them. So 400 00:32:52.039 --> 00:32:55.440 you have a tool, and you could argue that the thin bone knowledge is 401 00:32:57.279 --> 00:33:02.839 the the oh God, the ability of the tool to do what it does 402 00:33:04.359 --> 00:33:07.599 right, the mechanism by which the rules that the tool functions by. If 403 00:33:07.599 --> 00:33:10.680 you will, I don't, But that's not knowledge, that's just that's the 404 00:33:10.680 --> 00:33:15.279 mechanism by which the tool has to function. There's just no other way. 405 00:33:15.440 --> 00:33:22.039 But it's taking the evidence that is received by the census integrating them. And 406 00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:25.880 that's where facts and knowledge comes from. And until you have that, you 407 00:33:25.960 --> 00:33:30.240 have nothing. And there's no it's not an accident that babies know nothing. 408 00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:34.240 They know nothing. They can they can suck, basically, and they can 409 00:33:34.240 --> 00:33:37.799 cry, and they can poop, and that's it. Having had some I'll 410 00:33:37.839 --> 00:33:42.480 tell you they know nothing. And then as they start looking around the world, 411 00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:49.000 as they start gaining information, gaining data from the world, integrating that 412 00:33:49.079 --> 00:33:52.279 data. I mean, one of the amazing things about having babies is that 413 00:33:52.359 --> 00:33:58.279 you can see iron ran As epistemology in action as they form concepts. I 414 00:33:58.279 --> 00:34:02.880 mean, to me, Ransom eistemology was, you know, proven empirically. 415 00:34:05.240 --> 00:34:08.239 You know, just by watching children and how they how they phone concepts, 416 00:34:08.280 --> 00:34:12.719 and how they act and how they integrate. And it's it's right there that 417 00:34:12.920 --> 00:34:17.400 you can see it in action. So you get the data and then you 418 00:34:17.440 --> 00:34:22.079 start integrating. You see similarities and you see differences between you First you see 419 00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:25.239 differences, and then you see similarities between things, and that allows you to 420 00:34:25.280 --> 00:34:30.400 integrate those into abstractions and and then you then you can start thinking abstractly. 421 00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:35.519 But until you phone those abstractions fund the data that comes in, you can't 422 00:34:35.559 --> 00:34:42.360 think abstractly. So everything starts with observation everything, and that observation could be 423 00:34:42.440 --> 00:34:46.400 in very sophisticated science, could be can be indirect, right, it could 424 00:34:46.400 --> 00:34:53.119 be using a microscope or ultimately using observation, using math that explains that is 425 00:34:53.159 --> 00:34:58.679 based on certain observations that are at a different level. But at the end 426 00:34:58.719 --> 00:35:01.400 of the day, it all starts out there. And only then can you 427 00:35:01.480 --> 00:35:06.519 say, first you have to observe the phenomena of gravity before you can have 428 00:35:06.559 --> 00:35:09.719 a theory about gravity. First you have to drop bottles, lots of bottles. 429 00:35:10.159 --> 00:35:13.800 And you know children do that. They'll take a thing and they'll let 430 00:35:13.840 --> 00:35:15.719 it go, and then you'll pick it up and you'll give it to them 431 00:35:15.760 --> 00:35:20.639 and they'll drop it again. And what are they learning here? They're learning 432 00:35:20.760 --> 00:35:24.119 causality, They're learning about gravity. They're learning how they can manipulate their parents, 433 00:35:24.360 --> 00:35:29.760 which is causality, right. But they are learning through experimentation. They're 434 00:35:29.800 --> 00:35:32.400 learning through trying something and seeing, oh, let's try it again. Oh 435 00:35:32.440 --> 00:35:37.199 and now I come up with a generalization. Ah, that's what it is. 436 00:35:37.480 --> 00:35:39.320 Let me, let me, let me make sure the generalization actually works. 437 00:35:39.360 --> 00:35:43.000 I'll drop it a few more times. Right, So they're inducing. 438 00:35:43.639 --> 00:35:46.119 Induction is the only way in which we gain new knowledge. There is no 439 00:35:46.199 --> 00:35:52.199 new knowledge outside of ultimately outside of induction. So we induce, and then 440 00:35:52.599 --> 00:36:00.159 we deduce from those inductions. But to eliminate induction from human knowledge, from 441 00:36:00.199 --> 00:36:04.519 human reason, is they eliminate knowledge from human reason. We don't know anything 442 00:36:04.599 --> 00:36:07.440 in that case. Let me try and put forward a pithy version of poppers 443 00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:13.440 the physmology or which do improves bond? So observation is not a source of 444 00:36:13.480 --> 00:36:16.760 knowledge. You cannot observe the facts of reality. Quote unquote. The purpose 445 00:36:16.760 --> 00:36:22.760 of observation here is to test our theories. For where theories come from. 446 00:36:22.760 --> 00:36:27.000 The trees come from the mind. They're conjectured. So so babies have theories. 447 00:36:27.000 --> 00:36:30.719 They just pop pop up theories and then they test those theories and they 448 00:36:30.800 --> 00:36:35.400 just they just conjected by a baby. A two year old conjectures a theory. 449 00:36:36.159 --> 00:36:40.320 When so, yes, when you when you reject like inborn knowledge, 450 00:36:42.039 --> 00:36:44.880 I would say that we have a lot of inborn knowledge, and some of 451 00:36:45.199 --> 00:36:51.360 like even sucking. Even sucking is like sucking mother's milk is part of your 452 00:36:51.400 --> 00:36:54.000 inbond knowledge. After a while, we not knowledge. It's a it's a 453 00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:59.280 reflex. It's a muscular reflex. If I put my finger in a baby's 454 00:36:59.320 --> 00:37:02.559 mouth, it'll start sucking. It's it's not I need to suck in order 455 00:37:02.559 --> 00:37:06.400 to eat. And then if I need to find the nipple because there's milk 456 00:37:06.440 --> 00:37:09.639 there, it's put something in my mind. I'll suck Because it's a reflex. 457 00:37:10.119 --> 00:37:15.079 It's it's it's a it's it's it's a it's a there's no cognition, 458 00:37:15.559 --> 00:37:21.760 there's no mind that's involved in the sucking. Why does it then, uh, 459 00:37:21.880 --> 00:37:25.039 why do we not have that sucking reflex after a year or so? 460 00:37:27.840 --> 00:37:32.400 Well, because because one of the things that happens with human beings is as 461 00:37:32.440 --> 00:37:37.679 we gain, as we gain conceptual knowledge, as we gain practice, in 462 00:37:37.719 --> 00:37:42.599 a sense, we override the the the instincts. The sucking thing is still 463 00:37:42.639 --> 00:37:45.400 there, but it because it stops being because wait a minute, I don't 464 00:37:45.400 --> 00:37:49.199 need to suck. I can have chew, so I don't need to suck. 465 00:37:49.280 --> 00:37:52.199 Stop sucking, Okay, so I can stop sucking. So we actually 466 00:37:52.280 --> 00:37:57.360 override. But the only way we can override it is by gaining concrete, 467 00:37:57.440 --> 00:38:01.480 factual information about the world. One of those facts informations we gain is I 468 00:38:01.519 --> 00:38:06.400 can chew my food in a sense. Right. They don't literally think that, 469 00:38:06.920 --> 00:38:10.519 but they experience the chewing of the food, and that results in new 470 00:38:10.559 --> 00:38:15.760 knowledge about how to gain you know, in regarding the fact that they don't 471 00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:20.760 need to suck anymost they stop. I think I agree with that. But 472 00:38:21.559 --> 00:38:24.920 so so everything. So everything starts with you open your eyes. You see 473 00:38:24.960 --> 00:38:34.199 stuff, and there there's the facts of reality. There's reality and your mind. 474 00:38:34.639 --> 00:38:37.960 Your mind is not passive. Your mind is integrating, it's working with 475 00:38:37.000 --> 00:38:40.599 the stuff. And in that sense, there's you know, in a sense 476 00:38:40.679 --> 00:38:45.679 thing knowledge you know in that sense. But all the facts come to outside. 477 00:38:45.679 --> 00:38:50.760 There's no there's no factual information. And if there is factual information inside, 478 00:38:50.760 --> 00:38:57.880 where did it come from? So looking at all not mystics, right, 479 00:38:58.280 --> 00:39:00.760 which is not a mystic? So where did the fact actual Where did 480 00:39:00.760 --> 00:39:04.280 the factual knowledge come from? Where did all these facts come from that you're 481 00:39:04.320 --> 00:39:09.800 born with? So I don't we looked at the night sky for thousands of 482 00:39:09.800 --> 00:39:15.320 fears before understanding what stars actually are? We? Yeah, people, so 483 00:39:16.960 --> 00:39:21.880 we so we so we it's true. We came up with hypothesis that were 484 00:39:21.920 --> 00:39:24.840 wrong, like the lights the gods or whatever, but we started with an 485 00:39:24.840 --> 00:39:29.559 observation. The observation is the night sky. The observation is light in the 486 00:39:29.599 --> 00:39:31.760 sky that kind of moves a little bit even there. And then we came 487 00:39:31.840 --> 00:39:37.239 up with hypothesis maybe it's God's We didn't have any way to test it, 488 00:39:37.360 --> 00:39:42.159 so we stuck with that hypothesis and then maybe other people okay, but we 489 00:39:42.199 --> 00:39:47.079 started with an observation. So every hypothesis, every single hypothesis that is that 490 00:39:47.159 --> 00:39:52.239 has any kind of legitimacy, starts with an observation. Hypothesis might be wrong 491 00:39:52.679 --> 00:39:57.840 and it needs to be tested. I'm full hypothesis and testing, but you 492 00:39:57.960 --> 00:40:01.920 cannot hypothesize without observation. And when you do, you come up with crazy 493 00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:07.159 theories and physics, as I think David Deutsch does. Crazy theories and physics 494 00:40:07.159 --> 00:40:16.760 that have no reality. String theory and what is it multiverse multiverses are just 495 00:40:17.119 --> 00:40:22.199 one example of I think crazy theories that have no reality that mean nothing, 496 00:40:22.119 --> 00:40:25.960 that the detachment everything, it's because they start in here and they're not connected 497 00:40:27.000 --> 00:40:30.519 to anything out of there, and of course they're not testable. Yeah, 498 00:40:30.760 --> 00:40:35.280 I don't think a podcast is the best way, the best format to have 499 00:40:35.400 --> 00:40:37.440 this kind of class if idea, because there's other obligations as well. But 500 00:40:37.880 --> 00:40:43.599 as someone that's about to put forward stances, we should definitely continue this conversation 501 00:40:43.639 --> 00:40:50.760 because I do think there can be a fruitful meaning of minds between objectivists and 502 00:40:50.760 --> 00:40:54.639 critical rationalists because we both care deeply about progress, individuality, and freedom, 503 00:40:54.679 --> 00:41:00.159 and so there could be fruitful discussion there about epistemology as well. Yeah, 504 00:41:00.159 --> 00:41:06.840 I agree. Anyway, the final question I wanted to ask you is what's 505 00:41:06.840 --> 00:41:09.960 your advice for someone who's young and motivated, let's say, out of high 506 00:41:09.960 --> 00:41:15.679 school and wants to change the world and do something good for society. Well, 507 00:41:16.039 --> 00:41:22.079 stop wanting to want to do something good for society. You know why 508 00:41:22.159 --> 00:41:24.840 do you want to do something good for society? So start with start with 509 00:41:25.039 --> 00:41:29.280 identifying your own values, and start with wanting to do something good for yourself 510 00:41:29.760 --> 00:41:31.199 and wanting to live the best life that you can live. Maybe at the 511 00:41:31.280 --> 00:41:37.079 end of the day that involves that will probably involve something the society benefits from 512 00:41:37.119 --> 00:41:40.440 society, depending on which society you know you want to benefit Russian society, 513 00:41:40.440 --> 00:41:45.559 do you want to fit Abohenian society you want to benefit putin or do you 514 00:41:45.639 --> 00:41:49.719 want to benefit you know, David Deutsch or world full of David Deutsche's Who 515 00:41:49.760 --> 00:41:52.679 do you want to benefit? So I the whole try to get away from 516 00:41:52.719 --> 00:41:59.639 these notions of society and mankind and all this stuff, and and think in 517 00:41:59.719 --> 00:42:05.360 terms of a specific you know, narrow it down to what kind of human 518 00:42:05.400 --> 00:42:07.239 beings you want to actually help, and figure out why you want to help 519 00:42:07.280 --> 00:42:10.440 them, and and have a have a real perspective in terms of your own 520 00:42:10.519 --> 00:42:15.000 values and your own life and your own well being. What do I want 521 00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:16.079 to do and why do I want to do it? So I would start 522 00:42:16.119 --> 00:42:22.599 the figure out what really makes you, what you really enjoy doing, what 523 00:42:22.800 --> 00:42:29.920 is really valuable to you? And uh, you know, and I and 524 00:42:29.960 --> 00:42:30.920 I think and it could be it could be science, if it could be 525 00:42:30.920 --> 00:42:36.119 philosophy, could be a lot of different things. And your duty. You 526 00:42:36.159 --> 00:42:38.480 don't have a duty to society. If you have a duty, it's to 527 00:42:38.559 --> 00:42:44.559 yourself and and so so start you know that that is I think the starting 528 00:42:44.559 --> 00:42:49.880 point. You know, I recommend everybody read Ran because I think particularly for 529 00:42:49.920 --> 00:42:52.400 the for the ethics, particularly for the morality. I think I think it's 530 00:42:52.400 --> 00:42:58.920 crucial. Although the morality depends very much on the epistemology, I don't think 531 00:42:58.920 --> 00:43:02.079 it stands alone. So I encourage an encourageating young person to study iron Ran 532 00:43:02.639 --> 00:43:09.000 and then figure out what what are that individual's real you know, values, 533 00:43:09.159 --> 00:43:14.920 what what what? What is what is really important to you, and and 534 00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:21.519 really dedicate yourself to to pursuing them and not not compromising with them and taking 535 00:43:21.599 --> 00:43:23.000 risks. I mean, one of the things that I think is a real 536 00:43:23.039 --> 00:43:28.480 problem in the world is when people become so risk averse that they tend to 537 00:43:28.519 --> 00:43:30.480 be afraid, and they're tend to be passive, and they, uh, 538 00:43:30.800 --> 00:43:34.679 they don't engage with the world, and they don't engage with their own values, 539 00:43:34.719 --> 00:43:39.280 and they don't pursue them aggressively enough. You're on. Thank you very 540 00:43:39.360 --> 00:43:43.679 much for your time. I appreciate you coming on. My pleasure, my 541 00:43:43.760 --> 00:43:44.559 pleasure. Thank you.