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Hey everybody, thanks for coming to
another episode of Adventures and Angular. I'm

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your host, Aaron Frost. I
work with Hero Devs, I work with

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ng Kom and I'm a GDE as
well. Today on the panel we have

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everyone's favorite Listen, Nicole, you
got me in a really bad time.

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I'm not eating a carrot right now, but hello everyone. I think you

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wanted to eat the carrot as you
Introe, because you I know, I

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thought I could eat it faster.
You got me off guardman, you got

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me off the guarden. So listen, let everyone know who you are,

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what you're doing. So. I
am an Angular developer advocate for Kindo UI

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at Progress. We make cool components. I've always loved the like I like

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to help the front end of the
front end more so. Yeah, and

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I'm here to just avidly love on
Angler. Cool cool And as our guests

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today, we've got a guy who
I met a few months ago and now

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I love him. We got Craig
Spence. Craig, go ahead and introduce

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yourself. Man. Hi, I'm
Craig. I'm from New Zealand but I

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live in Stockholm now. The last
couple of months i've been selfware engineer at

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Spotify. I'm not doing any angular
stuff, but in a past life I

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did quite a bit. So I
been lucky enough to talk to a couple

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conferences, got a female coming up, love the angel community, and came

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to chat about some stuff cool.
So today we're going to talk about probably

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one of the most important problems facing
the world, which is packs of wild

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dogs taking over most of the major
populated cities in North America. We're going

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to talk about what's up with New
Zealand and the spiders. Are you guys

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have a lot of spiders over there? Nah, coming misconception. New Zealand's

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got like a couple of bad ones. Australia has got all the really bad

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ones. New Zealand's fine, come
visit. Really, it's an island,

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so the spiders don't make it pretty
much. I think we've got like one

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quite bad one. And even then
it'll just kind of like bite you and

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bubble off a bit and then you'll
be Okay, that might be a lie.

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I feel like you're not gonna die, so just it's fine. Like

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I think, I think the most
dangerous animal in New Zealand is like a

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wild pig. Blo's dangerous. Those
are scary. Let's not underestimate them.

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More often than not. You might
see like a little tunic if it's like

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cut in the world. Yeah,
I wong one. So Craig, we

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brought you on. You're an expert
in quite a few things. I know.

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You're an expert in in your X, You're an expert in angular jazz,

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You're an expert with Angular. Spotify
brought you on because of a lot

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of his expertise. So I figured
it's not when we were talking before the

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show. Let's just talk about maybe
some of the stuff you learned in your

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time with with Angular and Angular jazz. Yeah, I guess some. So

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I for we're a bit of context. Before I am. Before I left

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New Zealand, my whole time,
I hope of career after university was spent

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at at one company called trade Me. Trade Me as like New Zealand's New

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Zealand's basically vision of eBay. They
kind of got into the market before we

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met eBay existed there. They expanded
to do things like property and motors and

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jobs and those kinds of things.
Pretty New Zealand kind of institution, like

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very deep market saturation. I really
loved brand, and so I spent six

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years there between between union and leaving
the country, and a big deal of

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that time was on a basically a
complete site rebuild of taking existing dot net

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application and a backbone mobile site,
trying to figure out a way to smash

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them together into one, one responsive
experience. And that was about you know,

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five years of my life doing that
stuff, crossing the bridge from Angelo

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Jas all the way through the angular
I think we were almost on eight before

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before I LEPs, and so yeah, covered a lot of things. I

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helped figure out, you know,
our test approach, our test tooling.

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I helped work on our component library
and how to scale this across to you

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know, a whole big number of
teams building a pretty big and get out.

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So I learned quite a bit how
many teams. So when it started,

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we were I guess about eight of
us working centrally on starting setting up

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the kind of architecture and some of
the decisions. By the time I left,

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we were more like twenty teams across
across three cities. How many people

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are on a team. Just so
that we can do some simple math between

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five and eight kind of thing a
cross functional teams to develop a testers,

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designers, a significant amount of developers
basically, yeah, enough enough to be

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having the kind of problems that you
see at that kind of live yeah,

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and working on an app that does
a lot of stuff. So you know,

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you can buy and sell a car, you can buy and sell a

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house, you can buy and sell
a phone, you can list a job,

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you can find someone to clean your
car. It's like all the same

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ap or they have like a bunch
of different apps that do these things.

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This is one one web at so
there's a bunch of native apps that don't

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do a lot of those things.
But from a from a code based point

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of view, one app, one
API, one API with one version that

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you can't remove anything from. Oh
yeah, So I think the listeners want

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to know what are some of the
weirdest things people sold on your tradeing website

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that you saw. So there's some
pretty famous ones. The one that kind

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of springs to my mind, there's
a book that kind of has the top

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ten, and I think it's pretty
close to the top. But somewhere in

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New Zealand's history, I believe the
story is that one of the kind of

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captains of a rugby team, one
of one of New Zealand's most prominent rugby

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teams, who was also a fairly
prominent rugby player, had some kind of

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altercation in a bar and either got
hit or hit someone with a lady's handbag,

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which eventually ended up on trade me
and got lady's handbag. Yeah,

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that there was used to beat someone. Did it get sold as a weapon

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or did they get sold as a
handbag. I'm pretty sure it got sold

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as a chair any item, so
it kind of went went and made some

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money for someone. I'm not sure, but that was a pretty common thing,

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the kind of big ones with things
like someone you know, someone sold

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you know, you can put a
tattoo on my butt kind of thing like

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the body space. Yeah, exactly
advertising that sounds like that was a selling

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advertising space. Exactly, exactly like
that. Lots of those kind of things.

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Great, it's a pretty weird st
anyone ever like auction like they're on

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kidney, Like a college student that's
hungary. I mean maybe your college students

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starting as hungry as the American ones. No, we feed. That's good,

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that's good your country. Yeah.
I think because of the tradeing's position,

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they can kind of have quite an
interesting influence on some like small social

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policy. So for example, guessing
people heard about the shooting prash Church last

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year and the follow up to that, we kind of realized that we're able

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to sell pretty serious weapons on trade
me and as a company we found decided,

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hey, we're not going to do
that anymore, you know, at

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the same time that the government was
sudden the same. So it was a

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pretty cool place to work. I
really miss everyone there, and they were

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really smart and doing really really cool
things. And you just switched over.

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How you said they were almost on
eight So it had to have been recent,

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right that you got the new job. Yeah. Yeah, So I

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finished up there kind of middle of
May, jumped on a plane, came

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over this way, and then jumped
on a plane the next week and went

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to tele Aviv to hang with Frosty
at angular Up, which was cool,

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which was amazing, What a beautiful
country. I learned some things about Craig.

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The dude has serious I would have
for David. He has superpowers.

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He has superpowers, so it's it's
insane. It's one of those stories that

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you tell it people won't believe you. So we gotta we're gonna sign something

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on that Yeah, if you tell
the story, people are here will be

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like I don't believe it. You're
like, now you're gonna give us a

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clue, Like I'm not going to
be the guy that what happens in tel

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Aviv stays in tel Aviv. Yeah, we had a good time. We

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went up north with Yuri check It
and it shy Rsnik and we we checked

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out the Syrian border. We listen, we went to Syria. Bro dude,

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almost like five yards like we're like
five yards away, I'm calling it.

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Just go up to him? Can
we just cross over like real quick?

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Like just like real fast. They
told us stories about how it's pretty

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like the fence was like it's it's
got monitoring and stuff. So we couldn't

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do that, but we wanted to. Yeah, we went to Syria.

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That was I thought that was a
little irresponsible as shy maybe to take some

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tourists up to the Cyria border.
But but it was fun. It was

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fun. It goes in the fun
calumn. I got my feet so so

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burned with the dee wait, how
did you know? Me? Me and

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Mike Cottington, we were so the
tour after the conference, we were all

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the Dead Sea and it was hot, but it wasn't that hot, and

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so both of us took like a
sandals off up on the beach and they

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basically like ran down it. Well, it's not that far. It's only

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like fifty yards where your chair is
to get into the water. And it

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wasn't wasn't any It looks like a
beach, but the sand was like I

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had blisters on my fate for a
few few days after. So the sand

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is like thick in mineral elicit because
of what the dead sea is, it's

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like such a high extra so the
sun just bakes it. Yo. I

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took my sandals off like ten feet
from the water, and I had to

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immediately put them back on because my
female on fire. So that was a

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lot of spit. This dude walked
fifty yards with no sandals, insane.

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And then I also managed to get
my kid under the dead sea. You

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got water in my eyes, got
it in my mouth. So I had

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a dumb stuff and television. But
yeah, there's like three things they said,

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don't know what, like you don't
want your barefoot, don't put your

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eyes in the water. He immediately
put his eyes in the water. It

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was an accident. He's like,
hey, guys, look, look how

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I'm floating weird. Watch this,
I can float weird. And then all

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of a sudden he floated upside down
and his head water And you can't clean

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your eyes out with your hands because
your hands have the water on it,

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right, So just pitching me just
pulling my eyes out in the middle of

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the see, I mean like your
eyes were closed, So like even with

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your eyes closed you go under.
Its bad news. Well they would have

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been closed, but I was surprised
with your eyes. I was just like

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lying on my back and I sort
of rolled it to cobag that I'm so

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sad I missed this. I was
pregnant at the time and I missed Look,

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I missed this awesome trip that you
guys did you did? You didn't?

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It was a really really good comfort
So I had such a nice time.

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You missed it. So yeah,
it was fun. Everyone should,

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if you get a chance, go
to Anguler up next year. I had

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a lot of fun. I really
enjoyed it. I hoped to go back.

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The one thing I didn't know,
which I've since found out, is

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because I've been to television, because
I've been to Israel, there's now a

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few countries that I'm not allowed to
go to overhaul that. Like I think

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it's like a kind of past forty
thing. So if I really want to

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go to Syria account but that's okay, I don't. I just I just

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applied for like the TSA pre check
stuff. Yeah, and I'm hoping that

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I pass. I did put Israel
on the list, but I'm hoping that

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did you Are you doing global entry
or just pre check? Well, I

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did both because I don't know what
the difference is, so I just didn't.

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Yeah. No, So pre check
is like for when you're going through

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security and you want to have an
easier time of it. In the US,

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you can do PreCheck and you get
a shorter line. You don't take

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your shoes off, you don't take
anything like electronics or anything out of your

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bag, and you just kind of
go through and it's faster. Global entry,

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which does include both, is when
you're coming back from other countries,

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you get the like you don't have
to go through that what is it called

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when it's like you're all these officers
and customs, you don't have to go

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through customs your passport and then get
a print out and go so that's what

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I want. I want that,
I want both. I don't go out

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of the countries often, so I
want more of the first one. All

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right, so let's get back.
I feel like tangents and way too all

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right. So you're at this,
you're at trade me. You're helping people

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sell weird stuff, and uh,
you've got one hundred and something developers and

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you're building an Angular jazz website and
then you got to go to Angular.

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It sounds like you you're one of
the daring people that went to Angular early

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early because you you said Angie up
didn't even exist. Yeah, we were

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in there pretty early on. So
we fell in the camp of those who

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were kind of putting a few too
many hopes into Angular and so when when

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the really big breaking changes started getting
announced, we were like, oh,

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you know, how's this going to
work for us? And culturally we knew

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that there were a few things that
might be a bit hard to navigate,

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and so we didn't want to get
into a world where we had both Angular

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JS and Angular running. So at
that point in time, we had teams

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who were building on the angle of
the JS website. They were not having

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a good time. Developer experience was
particularly poor. The mobile performance was particularly

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poor, and we were trying to
replace the old mobile site is kind of

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like a test so that that wasn't
going so well, and so my team

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kind of regrouped, We got a
space of our own in one of our

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other buildings and kind of just nipled
down and started saying, cool, we

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built this thing. Now we know
some of the pitfalls. How do we

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lean on angula, how do we
lean on this in your architecture? And

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how do we get to a place
where we can deliver all the kind of

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goals that we have for this project. So with n zeb grade like it

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does a lot of things for you, it makes a lot of things easier.

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And you sounds like you had to
do all that manually. So just

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explain to us some of the things
you had to manually do. The glue

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those two together, because I think
a lot of us to get en yebgrade

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take that for granted potential, and
I think it's good to hear maybe from

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your experience, you know what you
had to do manually. Yeah, So

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we actually specifically made it so that
we didn't have to do anything manually.

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So what we what we said about
to do was to do a visual rebuilt

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from the Angler JAS to the Angular
version. So we play builts from ground

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up a new new saite just built
it again from scratch, So no inner

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up, No, no, okay, we knew. How did that take

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to get up to future compatibility with
the old one was probably another year to

215
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be, to be totally honest with
you, if not a bit longer than

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that. We took on a huge
amount of organizational risk with that. It

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took a huge of you know,
the trust that the other teams in the

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company had with us. We took
a lot of that, and I think

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I think we ended up doing doing
a really good job. There were definitely

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some hard things. I would say
that the main thing that saved us was

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that in the angular jas war would
already built out quite a rich component library,

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and so basically once we rebuilt that
in an angular a lot of the

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views just kind of came together.
We tried to stick to some slur APIs

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for most of those components. That
meant we could automate quite a big deal

225
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the upgrade. I'm talking like co
generation automation rather than Because again the CLI

226
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was very new, we didn't really
have schematics and stuff like that yet,

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But as as the new tools kind
of came along and got more more developed,

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we started using those and by the
time, by the time the other

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teams were on board, you know, we had the full CLI. We

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had all the schematics and all the
ways you can kind of spend up a

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new Angular application now along with this
kind of custom test tooling that we built,

232
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this custom component library that we built. We definitely learned a lot and

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there was kind of a lot of
stuff to unpack there, but we managed.

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Sure we're doing an upgrade at least. I think it's time for a

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00:15:37,679 --> 00:15:46,200
new segment called halftime Show where Craig
pulls out as a guitar and there's a

236
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little gig. There's a little road
gig for us. I'm going to find

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a little one because it's probably better. I'll be back going to say,

238
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yeah, get to you, bro, I see it on the wall.

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Yeah yeah, that one. Yeah
yeah. All right, listen, this

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00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:07,360
is the first ever Adventures in Anger
halftime show. First. Yeah, we've

241
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always picked at the end, we
haven't half time, Yep, what we

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got. I'm just trying to think
of something that will make Mike Caddington jealous.

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00:16:27,639 --> 00:16:44,679
This is definitely not a June.
This is an Angela Famus song for

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00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:48,360
you. Thanks man, that's great
bro. All right, halftime show.

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I think I think apparently we're going
to have some guitars and angel Oh really

246
00:16:55,679 --> 00:16:57,559
yeah, so that might be fun. That's good. Apparently it's a rock

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stop. I didn't know you were
going. Yeah. Oh yeah, I'll

248
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be there. That's awesome. Yeah, I should really finish my talk.

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You know, the conference isn't you
got plenty of time yo, I know

250
00:17:15,559 --> 00:17:19,039
I was gonna say, you've got
like days, you have multiple days once

251
00:17:19,079 --> 00:17:23,559
you so I'm fine. Once you
get the email that says you can check

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in for your flight, that's really
when you should That's that's kind of when

253
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you should start. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's just when you come

254
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up with the first idea. Yeah, I like, I like the pressure.

255
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Okay, like we joke, but
no kidding, some of the best

256
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ideas come. Then like I don't
know why, I like, it'll be

257
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fine, and then like fifty I
need to get rid of all right.

258
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All right, So there's a lot
of strategies for upgrading from angular to any

259
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famenular just right, really, from
from anything day anything else. There's a

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lot of strategies. There's the strategy
of do we go view by view,

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do we try and do this inter
opt thing in an Angular jests angular world.

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That's called ange upgrade. But there's
ways to do that with you know,

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Angular jets to react or Angular jests
to anything. Really, So you

264
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guys chose this path of a you
know, when we when we want to

265
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rewrite a feature or upgraded feature,
I guess will migrate to Angular and then

266
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I'm guessing you had some hard separation
of routes so that you'd get folds page

267
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loads on those Is that is that
kind of how that would work for the

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user. So literally for the user, they just did not see the site

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change for about a year while we
were upgrading yet. Oh, because at

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this point we had three different sites
run. So we had the original trav

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site from ninety ninety nine, we
had the backbone site from you know,

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twenty twelve, and then we had
this other news site that we were working

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on. We had started opting people
into, but the feedback that we got

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was so underwhelming that we had to
take another tree and so that that other

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track was Angular real angry, So
you did the close the doors rerate path.

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Yep, when you unveil it,
it sounds like you had rewritten the

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whole entire thing in the new thing. So you ask how that works,

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like did you slowly introduce a certain
amount of users or did you just be

279
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like boom, overnight it gets So
we had it as an opten for the

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people who were already seen the new
site, and then we had some some

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pretty hardline goals onto what we wanted
to actually be like before we got people

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on it again. So one of
the really key things there was mobile performance.

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We kind of had this goal of
making it as fast as the previous

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backbone, which was pretty small and
thankfully pretty quick, and so we actually

285
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ended up going through, you know, several phases trying to get to that

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kind of performance. You know,
as as the tooling around Angular got better,

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our understanding of you know, how
how route splitting works, how route

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pre load strategies work, how you
know, individual performance optimizations for individual opponents

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works, how we can lean on
NGRX to make performance better, and then

290
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all the way through to cool Let's
story, Angular universal in the next because

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we wanted to be fast and we
wanted to have good SEO. There was

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these pretty distinct phases of getting the
new thing ready and just kind of saying,

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like, you know what, the
way we try to do this with

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Angular GS wasn't good enough. It
wasn't good enough for our teams, it

295
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wasn't good enough for our users.
How do we take this new basically entirely

296
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new framework at Angular and really lean
on that to get a good experience?

297
00:20:30,319 --> 00:20:33,000
So what do you ruin the ending
and tell us how it worked? Like

298
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ultimately successful? Ultimately should have gone
back to backpoint, how did it go?

299
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Ultimately? I consider it a success. So they're still rolling it out,

300
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They've got all mobile users on it. As far as I understand,

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this is a we're talking you know, an almost twenty year old company with

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00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:53,279
some pretty change versus users and so
figuring out a good strategy to introduce this

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at that kind of bigger break point. It's an ongoing thing, and I

304
00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:00,279
was pretty sad to have to have
to leave it. Actually, I'm kind

305
00:21:00,279 --> 00:21:03,839
of still interested to see how it
plays out. But to me, the

306
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:08,680
more interesting challenges around that were kind
of some of the cultural ones, like

307
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how you actually get big teams to
shift technology, how do you get people

308
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to ultimately trust a brand new stack, because that's what it was right at

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the time. It was like,
we're we writing this, yeah, And

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honestly, one of the last things
I did before I left was essentially sell

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the idea of shifting to Basil and
say, hey, our bills aren't fast

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00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:37,119
enough. That's slowing down our abilittle
experiment. I think this company needs to

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00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:41,359
make a big technology there again,
trust the Angular team, trust that tool

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00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:42,920
chain, and go for it.
And so I kind of left with that

315
00:21:44,079 --> 00:21:45,960
ticked off, and I don't know
what happened. So I'm heading home in

316
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,200
September for a few weeks and I'm
kind of keen to see how everyone's been

317
00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:55,160
getting on. But as a company, they've invested really heavily in Angular.

318
00:21:55,279 --> 00:21:59,039
They got Thomas Belson and the fort
Ram team, and then later when Thomas

319
00:21:59,079 --> 00:22:02,799
was at Nable, he ran a
bunch of amazing training with us. We

320
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:04,759
got to know got to know Thomas
really well. He came out I think

321
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:08,680
four times to run Angular training with
our teams. And so they've actually got

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00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:14,000
a really a really tight sharp of
some really really smart Angular developers just just

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00:22:14,079 --> 00:22:18,839
ticking away down there some really cool
stuff. So that's awesome. That's this

324
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:26,880
cute logo for trade me, so
that that's Kiv Kiv the Kiwi. He's

325
00:22:27,519 --> 00:22:33,920
he's a fave. He had a
bit of a facelift a few years ago.

326
00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,559
Like what did he look like before? If you said to trade me

327
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:38,720
old logo, you should see.
But I could actually show you because I

328
00:22:38,799 --> 00:22:48,799
have a tattoo of them my foot. Yeah, do it. This happening

329
00:22:49,920 --> 00:23:02,519
he was so much. That's funny. So let's say you you could go

330
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:07,880
back to your Angular jess and you're
going to do your upgrade migration again.

331
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What would you do different? What
would you do the same? I'm only

332
00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,960
asking because a lot of the users
sitting here staring those decisions in the face

333
00:23:15,039 --> 00:23:17,960
right now totally What would you do
the same? What would you do different?

334
00:23:18,319 --> 00:23:19,480
It's a really it's a really good
question, and I've thought about it

335
00:23:19,519 --> 00:23:25,119
a ton. A question that gets
asked me a lot is well got asked

336
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,359
of me a lover, is why
didn't we build it and react? I

337
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:33,720
stand by Angular being the right decision
for a few reasons. One was that

338
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:37,680
we knew we wanted to have a
complicated, massive application. We also knew

339
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:42,920
that we didn't have time or necessarily
the cultural buy in to hash out all

340
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:48,079
the decisions that you have to make
to build a really good React application.

341
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At the time we first started,
React didn't exist, so the initial choice

342
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,759
was not even a choice. It
was kind of Backbone or Angular at the

343
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point in time. And by the
time that Reacting along, we had built

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00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:03,119
up so much We've know, Angular
skills and house we'd built up some pretty

345
00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:07,319
strong ties with the community, and
those things were really valuable to us.

346
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:12,960
New Zealand is pretty constrained for talent, so we probably knew that either way

347
00:24:14,079 --> 00:24:15,640
React or Angular, we weren't going
to be able to hire a whole bunch

348
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,759
of debs really easily. But we
knew Angular and we knew we could train

349
00:24:18,799 --> 00:24:22,759
people in Angular, and so that
was a pretty important consideration for us.

350
00:24:22,839 --> 00:24:26,519
We had teams who we used to
you know, building dot net kind of

351
00:24:26,599 --> 00:24:30,720
MVC applications, and so that was
a big part of the original Angular GS

352
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,480
decision. Was MVVM or mb whatever
or whatever we call it these days,

353
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that pattern was going to be familiar
to them already. Originally, even when

354
00:24:37,839 --> 00:24:41,920
we were doing Anglar JS, we
went with touchscript, so we'd been using

355
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,359
that with an Angular GS app and
that made it part of the migration quite

356
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:49,839
quite easy to We already had types
generated for our API coverage that kind of

357
00:24:49,839 --> 00:24:55,079
thing, and that's something I definitely
definitely have done again. So Touchescript Touchscript

358
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,960
for us really solved a few problems
that we just would have had to solve

359
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:04,279
other ways. So I stick with
Angular. I think it's the right choice

360
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:10,240
for that particular company. It's the
right choice for building an application of that

361
00:25:10,319 --> 00:25:12,640
scale where you don't want to necessarily
make decisions and you want to be able

362
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:18,000
to depend on the Angelar team who
are building pretty incredible tooling to build out

363
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,759
a really big application. I'd stick
with type scripts. You know. Again,

364
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,240
types have saved me enough times to
believe in them now. I really

365
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:32,480
strongly believe in design systems obviously,
things like Angular material which are incredible resources

366
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:36,759
for people who are building applications.
There are obviously other options out there as

367
00:25:36,759 --> 00:25:38,680
well, you know, things like
the Kendo and all those. For us,

368
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,799
it was really important for us to
have the really strong brand. Really

369
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:47,079
that trade me you can feel that
we wanted to be able to develop as

370
00:25:47,079 --> 00:25:49,359
the application grew and kind of tweak
it as time went on. Without having

371
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:53,720
to do big, big whole site
changes. So the design system really saved

372
00:25:53,799 --> 00:25:59,960
us. We invested really heavily in
testing and I think getting a pretty good

373
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,759
good level of test coverage of it
the things that mattered. So I remember

374
00:26:03,839 --> 00:26:07,680
over the time we kind of swapped
from from web pack to system JS,

375
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,160
back to web pack and then to
the angulocy of life, you know,

376
00:26:11,279 --> 00:26:15,400
completely rooking out how the whole way
that our application worked a number of times

377
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,480
with a really comfortable test head underneath
it. And so I think that test

378
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:22,680
approach really really paid off for us. It's certainly not an angular specific thing,

379
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:26,960
but there are lots of things that
I changed too. I think I

380
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:33,559
think we made some big cultural mistakes. My kind of final reflection on the

381
00:26:33,599 --> 00:26:37,599
whole project was that we didn't clearly
express the goals of the project, like

382
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:42,000
we as a central team knew or
the goals were, but we didn't communicate

383
00:26:42,079 --> 00:26:45,559
them them well enough. None of
the none of the things we did wrong

384
00:26:45,599 --> 00:26:51,079
with technology choices, there were more
people difficulties, you know, communication and

385
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,359
trust and how you build those things
up when you've when you've lost a bit

386
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:57,039
of trust by saying, hey,
are we're rebuilding this thing again? You

387
00:26:57,079 --> 00:27:00,720
know, we changed people's job else. You know, I think one of

388
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:07,640
the biggest things we miss underestimated was
how hard building a good front end is.

389
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:11,839
This is a conversation we've seen play
out a few times, but kind

390
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:17,000
of the unconscious biases around front end
versus back end, what it takes to

391
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:21,799
build an application that is truly responsive, that cares about things like accessibility,

392
00:27:21,839 --> 00:27:26,000
about performance, about loading states,
about you know, fast transitions between pages,

393
00:27:26,079 --> 00:27:30,400
and all those things that are actually
really tough engineering things to make.

394
00:27:30,559 --> 00:27:33,880
And we just set this expectation that
people would just care about that stuff.

395
00:27:34,039 --> 00:27:37,720
And so I think we made a
few few missteps in that and that side

396
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:41,759
of thing technology wise. What's the
answer, though, I mean, just

397
00:27:42,279 --> 00:27:48,279
more communication and try harder. Yeah, I think it's always more communication.

398
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:52,599
I think it's about a little bit
more bravery when you muck up. I

399
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:56,799
think it's it's a two way thing. Though there's a lot of forgiveness involved

400
00:27:56,839 --> 00:28:00,920
as well, you know, saying
hey, look, this has taken a

401
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,799
while. Here's the stuff that we've
got for you. It's not perfect,

402
00:28:03,839 --> 00:28:07,359
we want to work with you.
This is this is the thing that we're

403
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,759
doing together. Some of some of
those messages got lost of it along the

404
00:28:10,759 --> 00:28:15,599
way. It was pretty tough at
sometimes you know, this isn't a unique

405
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,920
problem or a unique story, even
in software. You know, we lost

406
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:22,680
people who decided that it wasn't the
right place to work anymore. We made

407
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,960
promises to people that we couldn't keep, and then they hadn't worked on Angula

408
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,160
for a few years, and so
they went and got other jobs. Which

409
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:34,079
was all really hard, But ultimately
it was an incredible thing for my own

410
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:40,720
personal development, seeing what those fails
pleaers look like, and seeing seeing how

411
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:44,480
I change in the way that I
was approaching some of these problems. My

412
00:28:44,559 --> 00:28:48,279
own understanding of change management. Not
that I can claim a deep understanding of

413
00:28:48,279 --> 00:28:51,599
it, but I certainly know a
bit more than I did at the start.

414
00:28:52,079 --> 00:28:55,279
I think I think the biggest the
biggest thing that I would have done

415
00:28:55,480 --> 00:29:00,880
would be just to get a few
more minds in the room as soon as

416
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,559
possible, more often, like when
there's a problem, or just like before

417
00:29:03,599 --> 00:29:07,480
there's a problem, I mean ideally
before right Like, you know, we

418
00:29:08,079 --> 00:29:12,319
weren't solving particularly unique problems. We
were solving a lot of problems, Like

419
00:29:12,559 --> 00:29:15,640
there are a lot of things to
consider when you're going to reactitecting an application.

420
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,240
But sometimes we just kind of got
in the room, the few of

421
00:29:19,319 --> 00:29:22,119
us and just figured something out,
and more often than not we came up

422
00:29:22,119 --> 00:29:27,079
with a good solution. But there's
a part there about bringing people into a

423
00:29:27,119 --> 00:29:30,079
solution, and it's actually a thing
I'm learning a lot about it Spotify.

424
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:37,759
So Stockholm and Sweden are a very
consensus based culture, and that can be

425
00:29:37,839 --> 00:29:40,920
really challenging, right, Like,
sometimes you might just need someone to make

426
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,880
a decision. But one of the
benefits of like actually reaching consensus is once

427
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,759
you get to a decision, you
could move forward really quickly. Yeah,

428
00:29:47,799 --> 00:29:52,599
because everyone's on board. Exactly the
number of conversations we ended up having to

429
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,440
have, we were kind of reselling
the same idea to the people that you

430
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,039
know, we're going to be building
this thing. It wasn't a wasted time.

431
00:29:59,079 --> 00:30:02,359
It was really important communication to have. But if you can shift that

432
00:30:02,359 --> 00:30:04,839
stuff left, do it faster,
and that's something I would have tried to

433
00:30:04,839 --> 00:30:07,519
do better. One of the things
that I'm really really proud of was,

434
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,319
by the end of my time it
trade me. I was in a team

435
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:15,319
of what we called just evangelists.
You know, it was kind of a

436
00:30:15,599 --> 00:30:19,480
evangelist advocate role, but it was
entirely internal, so it was on us

437
00:30:19,519 --> 00:30:23,640
to manage basically the training of the
teams, the onboarding of the teams,

438
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,359
getting them up to speed working in
the application, but also kind of selling

439
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,279
them on the vision, you know, doing some of that explaining of the

440
00:30:30,319 --> 00:30:34,519
problem space, doing some of that
explaining of like here's why accessibility is important.

441
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:38,039
You know, we can you know, get twenty percent more people using

442
00:30:38,119 --> 00:30:41,240
our product. And if you're you
know, if you're a Businus person,

443
00:30:41,279 --> 00:30:45,759
you say, hey, that's twenty
percent more money, or if you're more

444
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,680
design oriented, like it's a it's
an inclusive thing. It's about you know,

445
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,680
bringing people on board, having those
conversations all the way through to it.

446
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:57,440
Sounds like you were so many hats
in that job. That was really

447
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:03,920
incredible. I cared a lot about
this project. Again, it was you

448
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,519
know, six years of my life, so I certainly wasn't doing all these

449
00:31:06,519 --> 00:31:10,319
things at once. I started as
an intern and I ended up as a

450
00:31:10,359 --> 00:31:14,480
tech league, So I did wear
a few hats. You know. I

451
00:31:14,559 --> 00:31:19,119
got to rebuild New Zealand's biggest website
before I do thirty and I'm sure as

452
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:23,119
hell I'm very grateful for that experience
and I learned I look so so much,

453
00:31:23,319 --> 00:31:27,319
and I think that's part of why
I feel not obligated, but like

454
00:31:27,319 --> 00:31:30,599
like it's the right thing for me
to do. The talk about a lot

455
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,000
of the stuff you know. You
see you see blog posts about all the

456
00:31:33,039 --> 00:31:37,960
amazing things that people are doing,
all the things that you know people have

457
00:31:37,079 --> 00:31:41,559
overcome and succeeded. Quite frankly,
we just stuffed up, like in quite

458
00:31:41,599 --> 00:31:45,519
a big way, and you we
recovered from it. But talking about that

459
00:31:45,559 --> 00:31:51,759
stuff up is pretty interesting, I
think too, it is interesting. I'm

460
00:31:51,799 --> 00:31:53,519
glad that you came on and shared
this. I think that there's a lot

461
00:31:53,519 --> 00:31:57,400
of people who are the opposite of
you where you were like, hey,

462
00:31:57,839 --> 00:32:02,279
I'm gonna adopt either way before it's
ready, which I think is nuts.

463
00:32:02,519 --> 00:32:06,000
But I think there's a lot of
people who are the opposite where it's like,

464
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:09,440
hey, seriously, angular has been
ready, react has been ready.

465
00:32:09,759 --> 00:32:14,720
Stop writing an angular JSS. Is
all I'm saying. There's probably a lot

466
00:32:14,759 --> 00:32:17,640
of lessons that you've learned that that
it may be some courage from your experience

467
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:22,160
is that that people can hardess.
So I hope people that are listening that

468
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:25,839
are still on Angular jass, You're
really only a few really hard conversations away

469
00:32:25,839 --> 00:32:30,079
from being on a modern, non
legacy based framework. So if anyone has

470
00:32:30,079 --> 00:32:32,880
any questions, can they reach out
to you? Oh? Yeah, hell

471
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:37,759
ya, I'm on Twitter. My
my link is a bit long, but

472
00:32:37,799 --> 00:32:43,000
I'm all, I'm sure we'll get
it out. Same same, it's phenomenon

473
00:32:43,119 --> 00:32:49,279
nomenalenmenomenal. Yeah, yeah, I
don't know, Frosty follows, you'll be

474
00:32:49,279 --> 00:32:58,519
able to find me phenomenomenal. Yeah, maybe it's a phenomenmenal phenomenomenal. So

475
00:32:58,599 --> 00:33:01,400
the real thing is and that's that's
his name everywhere. So like I was,

476
00:33:01,519 --> 00:33:07,319
I was looking through the n PM
the other day and and I found

477
00:33:07,319 --> 00:33:10,200
this thing. I was like,
what is this? And I click out.

478
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:14,680
I'm like, oh, it's from
the phenomenomenal. So immediately I just

479
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:21,440
created an issue and started talking with
Craig on his his really old angular JS

480
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,039
thing. So, hey, yeah, phenomenal everywhere. So you know what

481
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:37,960
time for our guest guest appearance?
Hello, I made it? Yeah,

482
00:33:37,119 --> 00:33:40,720
how are you Craig? I'm good
man. How are you are you recovered

483
00:33:40,799 --> 00:33:46,519
from your experiences at Israel? I
am just my fate have stopped blustering after

484
00:33:46,599 --> 00:33:52,880
they did. Say I heard some
stories about you and like how you endangered

485
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:59,640
the lives of guests in your country. Craig, Yeah, he said that

486
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:01,599
was he said that that was what
he was told to do. Yeah,

487
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:07,599
that's what we do here. So
what are you talking about when you across

488
00:34:07,599 --> 00:34:10,480
the board at the Syria and almost
got a shot. Oh yeah, that's

489
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:15,920
that's Monday here, Yeah, Monday. What about the other what about the

490
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:20,840
other days? Now we're talking about
Craig's experience that trade me some of the

491
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:23,000
weird stuff that they used to sell
on the website. Sounds like they sold

492
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:29,119
some organs and stuff. Oh and
using Angular, Yeah, they're upgrade path

493
00:34:29,119 --> 00:34:31,960
from angular. Jest tangular. We're
just kind of talking about lessons learned type

494
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:37,559
thing. Nice. Yeah. Now
he's at Spotify working on the same bug

495
00:34:37,639 --> 00:34:42,280
for thirteen days in a row.
Now I didn't hear that story. There

496
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:46,440
was a bag what still going?
So I don't know how much of it

497
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:54,079
I'm allowed to talk about, but
right about i'll tell you. Hopefully I'm

498
00:34:54,079 --> 00:35:00,000
going to fix by then put it
this way. My my Spotify recommendations absolutely

499
00:35:00,079 --> 00:35:02,480
and because of this bug and everyone
has been of you. Really really thankful.

500
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,719
I do, I do have made
some Spotify, so this is amazing

501
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:14,239
company. I'm very, very very
you just got like Patsy Kline and Delli

502
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:16,920
Parton, that's sick you recommended listen. Now that's funny. All right,

503
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:21,400
Well, Craig, I'm I'm a
fan. Hopefully people can go out and

504
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,559
follow you if you have any questions
for him. Phenomenomenal on the Twitter,

505
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:29,159
on the GitHub, on the other
things. I'm guessing too, yeah,

506
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:35,840
Instagram. Maybe does people still do
that? Youngsters. By the time this

507
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:39,159
episode goes out, you'll have been
in Denver, Will hung out in Denver

508
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:44,239
and otherwise I tell him to come
check out you're talking Denver, but maybe

509
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:47,199
go check out his talk online.
Please give men. Yeah, yeah,

510
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:52,400
we're gonna be talking about angling Universal
and and pot off. This figureup right,

511
00:35:52,599 --> 00:35:57,840
so cool. So let's move on
to ze picks and uh Alyssa turned

512
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,400
her camera off, so I'm guessing
she doesn't want to go for some of

513
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:06,880
the picks. I'm here, I'm
just feeding baby on the picks. No,

514
00:36:07,519 --> 00:36:12,239
she's gone, all right, maybe
I will I will go next,

515
00:36:12,519 --> 00:36:15,960
and maybe when she goes back she
can go. My pick is the one

516
00:36:16,039 --> 00:36:21,840
plus seven pro Okay, and so
again, did I pick it already?

517
00:36:22,159 --> 00:36:25,840
Yes, I'm picking it again.
Okay, it's that good. Yeah.

518
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:29,719
So there's a there's a feature on
it that I'm gonna I'm gonna pick.

519
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:35,000
So I read about like the Zoom
hack, where like you're randomly your Mac

520
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:37,800
all Mac users, your webcam can
just turn on and you won't even know

521
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:42,599
that it's on. Like if you've
ever installed Zoom, any website you go

522
00:36:42,679 --> 00:36:46,320
to can just turn on your webcam
for fun because Zoom's awesome. But there's

523
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:50,559
this that guy got me scared.
That cain't got me scared. So the

524
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,840
one plus seven has this cool feature
where the screen is like edge to edge,

525
00:36:54,960 --> 00:37:00,800
so there's no camera, there's no
front facing camera until you were I

526
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:02,159
don't know if you guys can see
it. It pops up right there out

527
00:37:02,159 --> 00:37:08,360
of the top of the camera.
MM cute. Yeah. So I'm just

528
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:13,679
saying, my phone, if it
ever gets zoomed, my phone isn't just

529
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:17,639
gonna start like randomly spying on me
because there's no camera until I turned it

530
00:37:17,679 --> 00:37:22,239
on, and I suppose I would
know if it was on because it was

531
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,440
just pop out randomly, right,
Yeah, I'm also gonna pick Chloe Condon.

532
00:37:25,679 --> 00:37:30,159
She's gonna pick this week. She's
gonna work with us at Engiecomf on

533
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:36,320
making Angie Comf's next conference, and
the theme of next year is called Ergie

534
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:39,639
Coomf the Musical, So Chloe's gonna
help us get all the music ready and

535
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:45,559
get our Angular parody well well taken
care of. So anyway, Chloe's my

536
00:37:45,639 --> 00:37:51,199
other Picklyssa, would you we hear
you again? Okay? So like what

537
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:52,800
I lost, Like I couldn't hear
you, like could you hear me?

538
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,719
Or now? It was like totally
gone. You know. As soon as

539
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:59,199
we said, hey, would you
like to go? We saw you talking,

540
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:04,480
we heard oh that's hilarious. Uh. My pick was derivative. It

541
00:38:04,519 --> 00:38:07,280
was Angular Denver. I was talking
about how I'm super excited to see you

542
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,039
all there and I'm doing a talk
on dark patterns and UX. So yeah,

543
00:38:10,079 --> 00:38:13,920
I'm really pumped about it and I
can't wait. Cool. I'm excited

544
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:15,960
to see there is Zach coming and
a baby baby will be there. Zach

545
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:23,000
will not be all right. Baby
loves Angular, but Zach doesn't. He's

546
00:38:23,039 --> 00:38:27,199
still on the Ember boat. I
keep telling him that's not a boat anymore.

547
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:34,480
But I saw Tom Tom Dells do
fine the ams. He's in the

548
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:40,320
background yelling it's a boat. I
missed the last one and I wanted to

549
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:44,679
do No. He's Canadian. It's
a boat. It's a boat time.

550
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:49,000
It's a boat time, all right, Shan, Yeah, yeah, he

551
00:38:49,079 --> 00:38:53,800
picks. Yeah. I have a
new version for Jasmine alto Spies the library

552
00:38:53,840 --> 00:39:00,679
I created, so hello link in
the show notes, and that's basically a

553
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:06,679
library that helps you like create spies
for your test automatically, and then you

554
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:10,639
have like easy refectoring and all that
stuff and don't deal with strings anymore and

555
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:15,199
all that crap. So check it
out, check it out. That's my

556
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:21,480
pick, all right, Craig.
My pick is this trusty being the telecaster

557
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,199
in sid Green. I put myself
in your guitar when I moved here,

558
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:29,320
and it's very nice. Everyone should
get one twice so shy, I didn't

559
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:31,880
know. We did our first ever
feature on the podcast. We had We

560
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:37,880
had a halftime show. Yeah,
Craig did a halftime show with his miniature

561
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:44,519
guitar. Nice. It was great. He played the Angie rap song because

562
00:39:44,519 --> 00:39:47,199
you have all three of us and
we can sing it for you. That's

563
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:52,920
true, Craig, what did you
play? I played the intro to a

564
00:39:52,039 --> 00:39:57,360
song by mister Frank Turner by the
name of the favor all straight face,

565
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,639
straight one of those. So yeah. Frank tinor is Frank Tinner, is

566
00:40:00,679 --> 00:40:07,199
an amazing British musician. He's currently
launching a album which is all about incredible

567
00:40:07,199 --> 00:40:15,039
women through history and he's actually running, so it's all about the Who was

568
00:40:15,079 --> 00:40:22,920
it about incredible women in history?
Yeah? That's awesome. I want to

569
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,320
hear it. I want to hear
it. You won't be hearing it.

570
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:31,800
It sounds like because you messed up
your Spotify movie, the rest of us

571
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:35,679
can hear it. So all right, well, Craig, it's been good

572
00:40:35,679 --> 00:40:38,559
having you on here. Everyone reached
out to Craig on Twitter give him a

573
00:40:38,599 --> 00:40:45,159
follow and no, no, no, no, I'm really close to a

574
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:49,480
thousand people following me too, which
is stupid. You can get him over.

575
00:40:50,199 --> 00:40:54,360
Let's do a thousand. Let's do
a thousand. We'll catch everyone next

576
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:57,239
time. Peace. Peace,