Hey everybody, thanks for coming to another episode of Adventures and Angular. I'm
your host, Aaron Frost. I work with Hero Devs, I work with
ng Kom and I'm a GDE as well. Today on the panel we have
everyone's favorite Listen, Nicole, you got me in a really bad time.
I'm not eating a carrot right now, but hello everyone. I think you
wanted to eat the carrot as you Introe, because you I know, I
thought I could eat it faster. You got me off guardman, you got
me off the guarden. So listen, let everyone know who you are,
what you're doing. So. I am an Angular developer advocate for Kindo UI
at Progress. We make cool components. I've always loved the like I like
to help the front end of the front end more so. Yeah, and
I'm here to just avidly love on Angler. Cool cool And as our guests
today, we've got a guy who I met a few months ago and now
I love him. We got Craig Spence. Craig, go ahead and introduce
yourself. Man. Hi, I'm Craig. I'm from New Zealand but I
live in Stockholm now. The last couple of months i've been selfware engineer at
Spotify. I'm not doing any angular stuff, but in a past life I
did quite a bit. So I been lucky enough to talk to a couple
conferences, got a female coming up, love the angel community, and came
to chat about some stuff cool. So today we're going to talk about probably
one of the most important problems facing the world, which is packs of wild
dogs taking over most of the major populated cities in North America. We're going
to talk about what's up with New Zealand and the spiders. Are you guys
have a lot of spiders over there? Nah, coming misconception. New Zealand's
got like a couple of bad ones. Australia has got all the really bad
ones. New Zealand's fine, come visit. Really, it's an island,
so the spiders don't make it pretty much. I think we've got like one
quite bad one. And even then it'll just kind of like bite you and
bubble off a bit and then you'll be Okay, that might be a lie.
I feel like you're not gonna die, so just it's fine. Like
I think, I think the most dangerous animal in New Zealand is like a
wild pig. Blo's dangerous. Those are scary. Let's not underestimate them.
More often than not. You might see like a little tunic if it's like
cut in the world. Yeah, I wong one. So Craig, we
brought you on. You're an expert in quite a few things. I know.
You're an expert in in your X, You're an expert in angular jazz,
You're an expert with Angular. Spotify brought you on because of a lot
of his expertise. So I figured it's not when we were talking before the
show. Let's just talk about maybe some of the stuff you learned in your
time with with Angular and Angular jazz. Yeah, I guess some. So
I for we're a bit of context. Before I am. Before I left
New Zealand, my whole time, I hope of career after university was spent
at at one company called trade Me. Trade Me as like New Zealand's New
Zealand's basically vision of eBay. They kind of got into the market before we
met eBay existed there. They expanded to do things like property and motors and
jobs and those kinds of things. Pretty New Zealand kind of institution, like
very deep market saturation. I really loved brand, and so I spent six
years there between between union and leaving the country, and a big deal of
that time was on a basically a complete site rebuild of taking existing dot net
application and a backbone mobile site, trying to figure out a way to smash
them together into one, one responsive experience. And that was about you know,
five years of my life doing that stuff, crossing the bridge from Angelo
Jas all the way through the angular I think we were almost on eight before
before I LEPs, and so yeah, covered a lot of things. I
helped figure out, you know, our test approach, our test tooling.
I helped work on our component library and how to scale this across to you
know, a whole big number of teams building a pretty big and get out.
So I learned quite a bit how many teams. So when it started,
we were I guess about eight of us working centrally on starting setting up
the kind of architecture and some of the decisions. By the time I left,
we were more like twenty teams across across three cities. How many people
are on a team. Just so that we can do some simple math between
five and eight kind of thing a cross functional teams to develop a testers,
designers, a significant amount of developers basically, yeah, enough enough to be
having the kind of problems that you see at that kind of live yeah,
and working on an app that does a lot of stuff. So you know,
you can buy and sell a car, you can buy and sell a
house, you can buy and sell a phone, you can list a job,
you can find someone to clean your car. It's like all the same
ap or they have like a bunch of different apps that do these things.
This is one one web at so there's a bunch of native apps that don't
do a lot of those things. But from a from a code based point
of view, one app, one API, one API with one version that
you can't remove anything from. Oh yeah, So I think the listeners want
to know what are some of the weirdest things people sold on your tradeing website
that you saw. So there's some pretty famous ones. The one that kind
of springs to my mind, there's a book that kind of has the top
ten, and I think it's pretty close to the top. But somewhere in
New Zealand's history, I believe the story is that one of the kind of
captains of a rugby team, one of one of New Zealand's most prominent rugby
teams, who was also a fairly prominent rugby player, had some kind of
altercation in a bar and either got hit or hit someone with a lady's handbag,
which eventually ended up on trade me and got lady's handbag. Yeah,
that there was used to beat someone. Did it get sold as a weapon
or did they get sold as a handbag. I'm pretty sure it got sold
as a chair any item, so it kind of went went and made some
money for someone. I'm not sure, but that was a pretty common thing,
the kind of big ones with things like someone you know, someone sold
you know, you can put a tattoo on my butt kind of thing like
the body space. Yeah, exactly advertising that sounds like that was a selling
advertising space. Exactly, exactly like that. Lots of those kind of things.
Great, it's a pretty weird st anyone ever like auction like they're on
kidney, Like a college student that's hungary. I mean maybe your college students
starting as hungry as the American ones. No, we feed. That's good,
that's good your country. Yeah. I think because of the tradeing's position,
they can kind of have quite an interesting influence on some like small social
policy. So for example, guessing people heard about the shooting prash Church last
year and the follow up to that, we kind of realized that we're able
to sell pretty serious weapons on trade me and as a company we found decided,
hey, we're not going to do that anymore, you know, at
the same time that the government was sudden the same. So it was a
pretty cool place to work. I really miss everyone there, and they were
really smart and doing really really cool things. And you just switched over.
How you said they were almost on eight So it had to have been recent,
right that you got the new job. Yeah. Yeah, So I
finished up there kind of middle of May, jumped on a plane, came
over this way, and then jumped on a plane the next week and went
to tele Aviv to hang with Frosty at angular Up, which was cool,
which was amazing, What a beautiful country. I learned some things about Craig.
The dude has serious I would have for David. He has superpowers.
He has superpowers, so it's it's insane. It's one of those stories that
you tell it people won't believe you. So we gotta we're gonna sign something
on that Yeah, if you tell the story, people are here will be
like I don't believe it. You're like, now you're gonna give us a
clue, Like I'm not going to be the guy that what happens in tel
Aviv stays in tel Aviv. Yeah, we had a good time. We
went up north with Yuri check It and it shy Rsnik and we we checked
out the Syrian border. We listen, we went to Syria. Bro dude,
almost like five yards like we're like five yards away, I'm calling it.
Just go up to him? Can we just cross over like real quick?
Like just like real fast. They told us stories about how it's pretty
like the fence was like it's it's got monitoring and stuff. So we couldn't
do that, but we wanted to. Yeah, we went to Syria.
That was I thought that was a little irresponsible as shy maybe to take some
tourists up to the Cyria border. But but it was fun. It was
fun. It goes in the fun calumn. I got my feet so so
burned with the dee wait, how did you know? Me? Me and
Mike Cottington, we were so the tour after the conference, we were all
the Dead Sea and it was hot, but it wasn't that hot, and
so both of us took like a sandals off up on the beach and they
basically like ran down it. Well, it's not that far. It's only
like fifty yards where your chair is to get into the water. And it
wasn't wasn't any It looks like a beach, but the sand was like I
had blisters on my fate for a few few days after. So the sand
is like thick in mineral elicit because of what the dead sea is, it's
like such a high extra so the sun just bakes it. Yo. I
took my sandals off like ten feet from the water, and I had to
immediately put them back on because my female on fire. So that was a
lot of spit. This dude walked fifty yards with no sandals, insane.
And then I also managed to get my kid under the dead sea. You
got water in my eyes, got it in my mouth. So I had
a dumb stuff and television. But yeah, there's like three things they said,
don't know what, like you don't want your barefoot, don't put your
eyes in the water. He immediately put his eyes in the water. It
was an accident. He's like, hey, guys, look, look how
I'm floating weird. Watch this, I can float weird. And then all
of a sudden he floated upside down and his head water And you can't clean
your eyes out with your hands because your hands have the water on it,
right, So just pitching me just pulling my eyes out in the middle of
the see, I mean like your eyes were closed, So like even with
your eyes closed you go under. Its bad news. Well they would have
been closed, but I was surprised with your eyes. I was just like
lying on my back and I sort of rolled it to cobag that I'm so
sad I missed this. I was pregnant at the time and I missed Look,
I missed this awesome trip that you guys did you did? You didn't?
It was a really really good comfort So I had such a nice time.
You missed it. So yeah, it was fun. Everyone should,
if you get a chance, go to Anguler up next year. I had
a lot of fun. I really enjoyed it. I hoped to go back.
The one thing I didn't know, which I've since found out, is
because I've been to television, because I've been to Israel, there's now a
few countries that I'm not allowed to go to overhaul that. Like I think
it's like a kind of past forty thing. So if I really want to
go to Syria account but that's okay, I don't. I just I just
applied for like the TSA pre check stuff. Yeah, and I'm hoping that
I pass. I did put Israel on the list, but I'm hoping that
did you Are you doing global entry or just pre check? Well, I
did both because I don't know what the difference is, so I just didn't.
Yeah. No, So pre check is like for when you're going through
security and you want to have an easier time of it. In the US,
you can do PreCheck and you get a shorter line. You don't take
your shoes off, you don't take anything like electronics or anything out of your
bag, and you just kind of go through and it's faster. Global entry,
which does include both, is when you're coming back from other countries,
you get the like you don't have to go through that what is it called
when it's like you're all these officers and customs, you don't have to go
through customs your passport and then get a print out and go so that's what
I want. I want that, I want both. I don't go out
of the countries often, so I want more of the first one. All
right, so let's get back. I feel like tangents and way too all
right. So you're at this, you're at trade me. You're helping people
sell weird stuff, and uh, you've got one hundred and something developers and
you're building an Angular jazz website and then you got to go to Angular.
It sounds like you you're one of the daring people that went to Angular early
early because you you said Angie up didn't even exist. Yeah, we were
in there pretty early on. So we fell in the camp of those who
were kind of putting a few too many hopes into Angular and so when when
the really big breaking changes started getting announced, we were like, oh,
you know, how's this going to work for us? And culturally we knew
that there were a few things that might be a bit hard to navigate,
and so we didn't want to get into a world where we had both Angular
JS and Angular running. So at that point in time, we had teams
who were building on the angle of the JS website. They were not having
a good time. Developer experience was particularly poor. The mobile performance was particularly
poor, and we were trying to replace the old mobile site is kind of
like a test so that that wasn't going so well, and so my team
kind of regrouped, We got a space of our own in one of our
other buildings and kind of just nipled down and started saying, cool, we
built this thing. Now we know some of the pitfalls. How do we
lean on angula, how do we lean on this in your architecture? And
how do we get to a place where we can deliver all the kind of
goals that we have for this project. So with n zeb grade like it
does a lot of things for you, it makes a lot of things easier.
And you sounds like you had to do all that manually. So just
explain to us some of the things you had to manually do. The glue
those two together, because I think a lot of us to get en yebgrade
take that for granted potential, and I think it's good to hear maybe from
your experience, you know what you had to do manually. Yeah, So
we actually specifically made it so that we didn't have to do anything manually.
So what we what we said about to do was to do a visual rebuilt
from the Angler JAS to the Angular version. So we play builts from ground
up a new new saite just built it again from scratch, So no inner
up, No, no, okay, we knew. How did that take
to get up to future compatibility with the old one was probably another year to
be, to be totally honest with you, if not a bit longer than
that. We took on a huge amount of organizational risk with that. It
took a huge of you know, the trust that the other teams in the
company had with us. We took a lot of that, and I think
I think we ended up doing doing a really good job. There were definitely
some hard things. I would say that the main thing that saved us was
that in the angular jas war would already built out quite a rich component library,
and so basically once we rebuilt that in an angular a lot of the
views just kind of came together. We tried to stick to some slur APIs
for most of those components. That meant we could automate quite a big deal
the upgrade. I'm talking like co generation automation rather than Because again the CLI
was very new, we didn't really have schematics and stuff like that yet,
But as as the new tools kind of came along and got more more developed,
we started using those and by the time, by the time the other
teams were on board, you know, we had the full CLI. We
had all the schematics and all the ways you can kind of spend up a
new Angular application now along with this kind of custom test tooling that we built,
this custom component library that we built. We definitely learned a lot and
there was kind of a lot of stuff to unpack there, but we managed.
Sure we're doing an upgrade at least. I think it's time for a
new segment called halftime Show where Craig pulls out as a guitar and there's a
little gig. There's a little road gig for us. I'm going to find
a little one because it's probably better. I'll be back going to say,
yeah, get to you, bro, I see it on the wall.
Yeah yeah, that one. Yeah yeah. All right, listen, this
is the first ever Adventures in Anger halftime show. First. Yeah, we've
always picked at the end, we haven't half time, Yep, what we
got. I'm just trying to think of something that will make Mike Caddington jealous.
This is definitely not a June. This is an Angela Famus song for
you. Thanks man, that's great bro. All right, halftime show.
I think I think apparently we're going to have some guitars and angel Oh really
yeah, so that might be fun. That's good. Apparently it's a rock
stop. I didn't know you were going. Yeah. Oh yeah, I'll
be there. That's awesome. Yeah, I should really finish my talk.
You know, the conference isn't you got plenty of time yo, I know
I was gonna say, you've got like days, you have multiple days once
you so I'm fine. Once you get the email that says you can check
in for your flight, that's really when you should That's that's kind of when
you should start. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's just when you come
up with the first idea. Yeah, I like, I like the pressure.
Okay, like we joke, but no kidding, some of the best
ideas come. Then like I don't know why, I like, it'll be
fine, and then like fifty I need to get rid of all right.
All right, So there's a lot of strategies for upgrading from angular to any
famenular just right, really, from from anything day anything else. There's a
lot of strategies. There's the strategy of do we go view by view,
do we try and do this inter opt thing in an Angular jests angular world.
That's called ange upgrade. But there's ways to do that with you know,
Angular jets to react or Angular jests to anything. Really, So you
guys chose this path of a you know, when we when we want to
rewrite a feature or upgraded feature, I guess will migrate to Angular and then
I'm guessing you had some hard separation of routes so that you'd get folds page
loads on those Is that is that kind of how that would work for the
user. So literally for the user, they just did not see the site
change for about a year while we were upgrading yet. Oh, because at
this point we had three different sites run. So we had the original trav
site from ninety ninety nine, we had the backbone site from you know,
twenty twelve, and then we had this other news site that we were working
on. We had started opting people into, but the feedback that we got
was so underwhelming that we had to take another tree and so that that other
track was Angular real angry, So you did the close the doors rerate path.
Yep, when you unveil it, it sounds like you had rewritten the
whole entire thing in the new thing. So you ask how that works,
like did you slowly introduce a certain amount of users or did you just be
like boom, overnight it gets So we had it as an opten for the
people who were already seen the new site, and then we had some some
pretty hardline goals onto what we wanted to actually be like before we got people
on it again. So one of the really key things there was mobile performance.
We kind of had this goal of making it as fast as the previous
backbone, which was pretty small and thankfully pretty quick, and so we actually
ended up going through, you know, several phases trying to get to that
kind of performance. You know, as as the tooling around Angular got better,
our understanding of you know, how how route splitting works, how route
pre load strategies work, how you know, individual performance optimizations for individual opponents
works, how we can lean on NGRX to make performance better, and then
all the way through to cool Let's story, Angular universal in the next because
we wanted to be fast and we wanted to have good SEO. There was
these pretty distinct phases of getting the new thing ready and just kind of saying,
like, you know what, the way we try to do this with
Angular GS wasn't good enough. It wasn't good enough for our teams, it
wasn't good enough for our users. How do we take this new basically entirely
new framework at Angular and really lean on that to get a good experience?
So what do you ruin the ending and tell us how it worked? Like
ultimately successful? Ultimately should have gone back to backpoint, how did it go?
Ultimately? I consider it a success. So they're still rolling it out,
They've got all mobile users on it. As far as I understand,
this is a we're talking you know, an almost twenty year old company with
some pretty change versus users and so figuring out a good strategy to introduce this
at that kind of bigger break point. It's an ongoing thing, and I
was pretty sad to have to have to leave it. Actually, I'm kind
of still interested to see how it plays out. But to me, the
more interesting challenges around that were kind of some of the cultural ones, like
how you actually get big teams to shift technology, how do you get people
to ultimately trust a brand new stack, because that's what it was right at
the time. It was like, we're we writing this, yeah, And
honestly, one of the last things I did before I left was essentially sell
the idea of shifting to Basil and say, hey, our bills aren't fast
enough. That's slowing down our abilittle experiment. I think this company needs to
make a big technology there again, trust the Angular team, trust that tool
chain, and go for it. And so I kind of left with that
ticked off, and I don't know what happened. So I'm heading home in
September for a few weeks and I'm kind of keen to see how everyone's been
getting on. But as a company, they've invested really heavily in Angular.
They got Thomas Belson and the fort Ram team, and then later when Thomas
was at Nable, he ran a bunch of amazing training with us. We
got to know got to know Thomas really well. He came out I think
four times to run Angular training with our teams. And so they've actually got
a really a really tight sharp of some really really smart Angular developers just just
ticking away down there some really cool stuff. So that's awesome. That's this
cute logo for trade me, so that that's Kiv Kiv the Kiwi. He's
he's a fave. He had a bit of a facelift a few years ago.
Like what did he look like before? If you said to trade me
old logo, you should see. But I could actually show you because I
have a tattoo of them my foot. Yeah, do it. This happening
he was so much. That's funny. So let's say you you could go
back to your Angular jess and you're going to do your upgrade migration again.
What would you do different? What would you do the same? I'm only
asking because a lot of the users sitting here staring those decisions in the face
right now totally What would you do the same? What would you do different?
It's a really it's a really good question, and I've thought about it
a ton. A question that gets asked me a lot is well got asked
of me a lover, is why didn't we build it and react? I
stand by Angular being the right decision for a few reasons. One was that
we knew we wanted to have a complicated, massive application. We also knew
that we didn't have time or necessarily the cultural buy in to hash out all
the decisions that you have to make to build a really good React application.
At the time we first started, React didn't exist, so the initial choice
was not even a choice. It was kind of Backbone or Angular at the
point in time. And by the time that Reacting along, we had built
up so much We've know, Angular skills and house we'd built up some pretty
strong ties with the community, and those things were really valuable to us.
New Zealand is pretty constrained for talent, so we probably knew that either way
React or Angular, we weren't going to be able to hire a whole bunch
of debs really easily. But we knew Angular and we knew we could train
people in Angular, and so that was a pretty important consideration for us.
We had teams who we used to you know, building dot net kind of
MVC applications, and so that was a big part of the original Angular GS
decision. Was MVVM or mb whatever or whatever we call it these days,
that pattern was going to be familiar to them already. Originally, even when
we were doing Anglar JS, we went with touchscript, so we'd been using
that with an Angular GS app and that made it part of the migration quite
quite easy to We already had types generated for our API coverage that kind of
thing, and that's something I definitely definitely have done again. So Touchescript Touchscript
for us really solved a few problems that we just would have had to solve
other ways. So I stick with Angular. I think it's the right choice
for that particular company. It's the right choice for building an application of that
scale where you don't want to necessarily make decisions and you want to be able
to depend on the Angelar team who are building pretty incredible tooling to build out
a really big application. I'd stick with type scripts. You know. Again,
types have saved me enough times to believe in them now. I really
strongly believe in design systems obviously, things like Angular material which are incredible resources
for people who are building applications. There are obviously other options out there as
well, you know, things like the Kendo and all those. For us,
it was really important for us to have the really strong brand. Really
that trade me you can feel that we wanted to be able to develop as
the application grew and kind of tweak it as time went on. Without having
to do big, big whole site changes. So the design system really saved
us. We invested really heavily in testing and I think getting a pretty good
good level of test coverage of it the things that mattered. So I remember
over the time we kind of swapped from from web pack to system JS,
back to web pack and then to the angulocy of life, you know,
completely rooking out how the whole way that our application worked a number of times
with a really comfortable test head underneath it. And so I think that test
approach really really paid off for us. It's certainly not an angular specific thing,
but there are lots of things that I changed too. I think I
think we made some big cultural mistakes. My kind of final reflection on the
whole project was that we didn't clearly express the goals of the project, like
we as a central team knew or the goals were, but we didn't communicate
them them well enough. None of the none of the things we did wrong
with technology choices, there were more people difficulties, you know, communication and
trust and how you build those things up when you've when you've lost a bit
of trust by saying, hey, are we're rebuilding this thing again? You
know, we changed people's job else. You know, I think one of
the biggest things we miss underestimated was how hard building a good front end is.
This is a conversation we've seen play out a few times, but kind
of the unconscious biases around front end versus back end, what it takes to
build an application that is truly responsive, that cares about things like accessibility,
about performance, about loading states, about you know, fast transitions between pages,
and all those things that are actually really tough engineering things to make.
And we just set this expectation that people would just care about that stuff.
And so I think we made a few few missteps in that and that side
of thing technology wise. What's the answer, though, I mean, just
more communication and try harder. Yeah, I think it's always more communication.
I think it's about a little bit more bravery when you muck up. I
think it's it's a two way thing. Though there's a lot of forgiveness involved
as well, you know, saying hey, look, this has taken a
while. Here's the stuff that we've got for you. It's not perfect,
we want to work with you. This is this is the thing that we're
doing together. Some of some of those messages got lost of it along the
way. It was pretty tough at sometimes you know, this isn't a unique
problem or a unique story, even in software. You know, we lost
people who decided that it wasn't the right place to work anymore. We made
promises to people that we couldn't keep, and then they hadn't worked on Angula
for a few years, and so they went and got other jobs. Which
was all really hard, But ultimately it was an incredible thing for my own
personal development, seeing what those fails pleaers look like, and seeing seeing how
I change in the way that I was approaching some of these problems. My
own understanding of change management. Not that I can claim a deep understanding of
it, but I certainly know a bit more than I did at the start.
I think I think the biggest the biggest thing that I would have done
would be just to get a few more minds in the room as soon as
possible, more often, like when there's a problem, or just like before
there's a problem, I mean ideally before right Like, you know, we
weren't solving particularly unique problems. We were solving a lot of problems, Like
there are a lot of things to consider when you're going to reactitecting an application.
But sometimes we just kind of got in the room, the few of
us and just figured something out, and more often than not we came up
with a good solution. But there's a part there about bringing people into a
solution, and it's actually a thing I'm learning a lot about it Spotify.
So Stockholm and Sweden are a very consensus based culture, and that can be
really challenging, right, Like, sometimes you might just need someone to make
a decision. But one of the benefits of like actually reaching consensus is once
you get to a decision, you could move forward really quickly. Yeah,
because everyone's on board. Exactly the number of conversations we ended up having to
have, we were kind of reselling the same idea to the people that you
know, we're going to be building this thing. It wasn't a wasted time.
It was really important communication to have. But if you can shift that
stuff left, do it faster, and that's something I would have tried to
do better. One of the things that I'm really really proud of was,
by the end of my time it trade me. I was in a team
of what we called just evangelists. You know, it was kind of a
evangelist advocate role, but it was entirely internal, so it was on us
to manage basically the training of the teams, the onboarding of the teams,
getting them up to speed working in the application, but also kind of selling
them on the vision, you know, doing some of that explaining of the
problem space, doing some of that explaining of like here's why accessibility is important.
You know, we can you know, get twenty percent more people using
our product. And if you're you know, if you're a Businus person,
you say, hey, that's twenty percent more money, or if you're more
design oriented, like it's a it's an inclusive thing. It's about you know,
bringing people on board, having those conversations all the way through to it.
Sounds like you were so many hats in that job. That was really
incredible. I cared a lot about this project. Again, it was you
know, six years of my life, so I certainly wasn't doing all these
things at once. I started as an intern and I ended up as a
tech league, So I did wear a few hats. You know. I
got to rebuild New Zealand's biggest website before I do thirty and I'm sure as
hell I'm very grateful for that experience and I learned I look so so much,
and I think that's part of why I feel not obligated, but like
like it's the right thing for me to do. The talk about a lot
of the stuff you know. You see you see blog posts about all the
amazing things that people are doing, all the things that you know people have
overcome and succeeded. Quite frankly, we just stuffed up, like in quite
a big way, and you we recovered from it. But talking about that
stuff up is pretty interesting, I think too, it is interesting. I'm
glad that you came on and shared this. I think that there's a lot
of people who are the opposite of you where you were like, hey,
I'm gonna adopt either way before it's ready, which I think is nuts.
But I think there's a lot of people who are the opposite where it's like,
hey, seriously, angular has been ready, react has been ready.
Stop writing an angular JSS. Is all I'm saying. There's probably a lot
of lessons that you've learned that that it may be some courage from your experience
is that that people can hardess. So I hope people that are listening that
are still on Angular jass, You're really only a few really hard conversations away
from being on a modern, non legacy based framework. So if anyone has
any questions, can they reach out to you? Oh? Yeah, hell
ya, I'm on Twitter. My my link is a bit long, but
I'm all, I'm sure we'll get it out. Same same, it's phenomenon
nomenalenmenomenal. Yeah, yeah, I don't know, Frosty follows, you'll be
able to find me phenomenomenal. Yeah, maybe it's a phenomenmenal phenomenomenal. So
the real thing is and that's that's his name everywhere. So like I was,
I was looking through the n PM the other day and and I found
this thing. I was like, what is this? And I click out.
I'm like, oh, it's from the phenomenomenal. So immediately I just
created an issue and started talking with Craig on his his really old angular JS
thing. So, hey, yeah, phenomenal everywhere. So you know what
time for our guest guest appearance? Hello, I made it? Yeah,
how are you Craig? I'm good man. How are you are you recovered
from your experiences at Israel? I am just my fate have stopped blustering after
they did. Say I heard some stories about you and like how you endangered
the lives of guests in your country. Craig, Yeah, he said that
was he said that that was what he was told to do. Yeah,
that's what we do here. So what are you talking about when you across
the board at the Syria and almost got a shot. Oh yeah, that's
that's Monday here, Yeah, Monday. What about the other what about the
other days? Now we're talking about Craig's experience that trade me some of the
weird stuff that they used to sell on the website. Sounds like they sold
some organs and stuff. Oh and using Angular, Yeah, they're upgrade path
from angular. Jest tangular. We're just kind of talking about lessons learned type
thing. Nice. Yeah. Now he's at Spotify working on the same bug
for thirteen days in a row. Now I didn't hear that story. There
was a bag what still going? So I don't know how much of it
I'm allowed to talk about, but right about i'll tell you. Hopefully I'm
going to fix by then put it this way. My my Spotify recommendations absolutely
and because of this bug and everyone has been of you. Really really thankful.
I do, I do have made some Spotify, so this is amazing
company. I'm very, very very you just got like Patsy Kline and Delli
Parton, that's sick you recommended listen. Now that's funny. All right,
Well, Craig, I'm I'm a fan. Hopefully people can go out and
follow you if you have any questions for him. Phenomenomenal on the Twitter,
on the GitHub, on the other things. I'm guessing too, yeah,
Instagram. Maybe does people still do that? Youngsters. By the time this
episode goes out, you'll have been in Denver, Will hung out in Denver
and otherwise I tell him to come check out you're talking Denver, but maybe
go check out his talk online. Please give men. Yeah, yeah,
we're gonna be talking about angling Universal and and pot off. This figureup right,
so cool. So let's move on to ze picks and uh Alyssa turned
her camera off, so I'm guessing she doesn't want to go for some of
the picks. I'm here, I'm just feeding baby on the picks. No,
she's gone, all right, maybe I will I will go next,
and maybe when she goes back she can go. My pick is the one
plus seven pro Okay, and so again, did I pick it already?
Yes, I'm picking it again. Okay, it's that good. Yeah.
So there's a there's a feature on it that I'm gonna I'm gonna pick.
So I read about like the Zoom hack, where like you're randomly your Mac
all Mac users, your webcam can just turn on and you won't even know
that it's on. Like if you've ever installed Zoom, any website you go
to can just turn on your webcam for fun because Zoom's awesome. But there's
this that guy got me scared. That cain't got me scared. So the
one plus seven has this cool feature where the screen is like edge to edge,
so there's no camera, there's no front facing camera until you were I
don't know if you guys can see it. It pops up right there out
of the top of the camera. MM cute. Yeah. So I'm just
saying, my phone, if it ever gets zoomed, my phone isn't just
gonna start like randomly spying on me because there's no camera until I turned it
on, and I suppose I would know if it was on because it was
just pop out randomly, right, Yeah, I'm also gonna pick Chloe Condon.
She's gonna pick this week. She's gonna work with us at Engiecomf on
making Angie Comf's next conference, and the theme of next year is called Ergie
Coomf the Musical, So Chloe's gonna help us get all the music ready and
get our Angular parody well well taken care of. So anyway, Chloe's my
other Picklyssa, would you we hear you again? Okay? So like what
I lost, Like I couldn't hear you, like could you hear me?
Or now? It was like totally gone. You know. As soon as
we said, hey, would you like to go? We saw you talking,
we heard oh that's hilarious. Uh. My pick was derivative. It
was Angular Denver. I was talking about how I'm super excited to see you
all there and I'm doing a talk on dark patterns and UX. So yeah,
I'm really pumped about it and I can't wait. Cool. I'm excited
to see there is Zach coming and a baby baby will be there. Zach
will not be all right. Baby loves Angular, but Zach doesn't. He's
still on the Ember boat. I keep telling him that's not a boat anymore.
But I saw Tom Tom Dells do fine the ams. He's in the
background yelling it's a boat. I missed the last one and I wanted to
do No. He's Canadian. It's a boat. It's a boat time.
It's a boat time, all right, Shan, Yeah, yeah, he
picks. Yeah. I have a new version for Jasmine alto Spies the library
I created, so hello link in the show notes, and that's basically a
library that helps you like create spies for your test automatically, and then you
have like easy refectoring and all that stuff and don't deal with strings anymore and
all that crap. So check it out, check it out. That's my
pick, all right, Craig. My pick is this trusty being the telecaster
in sid Green. I put myself in your guitar when I moved here,
and it's very nice. Everyone should get one twice so shy, I didn't
know. We did our first ever feature on the podcast. We had We
had a halftime show. Yeah, Craig did a halftime show with his miniature
guitar. Nice. It was great. He played the Angie rap song because
you have all three of us and we can sing it for you. That's
true, Craig, what did you play? I played the intro to a
song by mister Frank Turner by the name of the favor all straight face,
straight one of those. So yeah. Frank tinor is Frank Tinner, is
an amazing British musician. He's currently launching a album which is all about incredible
women through history and he's actually running, so it's all about the Who was
it about incredible women in history? Yeah? That's awesome. I want to
hear it. I want to hear it. You won't be hearing it.
It sounds like because you messed up your Spotify movie, the rest of us
can hear it. So all right, well, Craig, it's been good
having you on here. Everyone reached out to Craig on Twitter give him a
follow and no, no, no, no, I'm really close to a
thousand people following me too, which is stupid. You can get him over.
Let's do a thousand. Let's do a thousand. We'll catch everyone next
time. Peace. Peace,