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Hello, and welcome to Open Mind
Radio. This is your host Alejandro Rojas,

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and I am joined by the wonderful
Jason Super Jason McClellan. Today,

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I'm wonderful and super wonderful. What
no, I said, just the super

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Jason. And because you were recently
at New York Comic Con with all kinds

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of superheroes, or at least people
dressed like superheroes, and yeah, does

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that rub off on you where you
feel kind of a bit like a superhero?

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No, And in fact, I
think you feel even less like a

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superhero if you're not dressed in the
cogeplay that they're dressed in. Yeah,

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everybody's a superhero but me? Yeah, is it? Most people dressed up

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there? It was a lot of
us play, like a lot more than

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I was expecting. Yeah, yeah
cool, Yeah, some really really good

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costumes and tons of people. Man, I mean, nothing keeps growing every

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year. It's almost as mobbed inside
the event as San Diego is now.

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In San Diego is you know the
this Mammoth Comic Con and New York it's

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it's it's growing at an incredible rate, and almost to that level. You

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don't have surprise it as much in
my opinion, really you don't notice is

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as much from the outside that means
San Diego, because New York is New

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York City. I mean it's gigantic
and there are millions of people going around.

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So the convention center where this event
is held, it kind of contains

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the entire event where San Diego.
Kind of that event takes over the entire

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city. So you don't have to
be at the convention center. You're down

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the streets, you're at a restaurant. I mean every restaurant, every hotel,

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every place, Superheroes all over associated
with absolutely, so that you kind

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of get more of a feel of
this gigantic event taking over a city or

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New York that's not really possible,
right, right, And I mean it's

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funny too because everything's mobbed in New
York. Yeah, I mean there's just

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so many people. You've lot of
people. Definitely can't be like claustrophobic,

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no, no, and if you
are, you've got to get over it

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pretty fast. Yeah, exactly.
So cool. That sounds like a lot

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of fun. And I think one
of the most important things you got to

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do, at least for our field, is you got to meet Jillian Anderson.

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Well, you're you're being a little
too kind saying meat. No with

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it, well not really. See
with a with a photo op, you

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get maybe half a second to go
and stand by the person. They snapped

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the photo and then you're done.
Did you get to say hi? At

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least? Uh? Yes? I
said hi, and I don't think she

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said hello. But when I was
done, she said thank you. And

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it looked like you were touching her. Did you get to put your hand

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on her shoulder or something? I
don't think I actually touched her. Oh,

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okay, I was going to,
but they might have had security throw

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me out. Yeah that you wanted
to, don't touch She looked really pretty.

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She looked good. Yeah, yeah, she's looking pretty good. Yeah.

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But that was a lot of fun. And I wore my alien T

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shirt in the photo too, so
I got that in there. It was

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fun. Yeah, that's sweet.
Well, cool job man, good job,

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thank you. So our guest for
today, I'm not even sure you're

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aware. Do you know who the
guest is for this week? No,

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tell me hello. It is Nancy
Burns. So she is the wife of

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Bill Burns, and she's so funny
because she's like, well, I don't

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really do interviews, I'm not very
interesting and what people don't realize, although

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if you were a subscriber to UFO
magazine you do realize this, like Jason,

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you were, that she is the
editor or was the editor of UFO

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magazine. So of course she's an
editor of you know, probably the longest

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running UFO specific magazine because Fate's been
around forever, and very popular magazine.

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So yeah, So I talked to
Nancy and she is has a lot to

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say and really fascinating stuff. So
a lot of fun Nancy Burns on the

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show today, and you're a good
person to talk with her about that because

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you know a thing or two about
popular UFO magazines. Yeah, yep,

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given that we did Open Minds magazine, which by the way, you can

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still get the archives and buy lots
of those and they're really cool. So

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yeah, so we have this commonality
where you know, she was an editor,

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she went to go seek stories.
She didn't write them, unlike you

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and I wrote stories, and also
sought to get stories from people on the

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outside. So yeah, so a
lot of fun and really interesting and she's

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been around for some interesting stuff and
it seems like maybe she's maybe a tag

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gun shy, maybe should I say, just because you know how it is

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in this field where even if you
don't seek to create enemies, you people

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just kind of get disappointed with your
work and and you do find enemies.

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And we know what that's like,
don't we, Jason, something that can't

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be avoided. Yeah, exactly.
Sometimes people just kind of be mean about

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stuff. Those jerkis so a lot
of fun. Of course, Jason and

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nor I like to create enemies.
So we like to think everybody's our friend

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until they say, screw up me
and I'm not talking to you, and

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then we'll be like, well,
but we still like you and we want

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to talk to you. But so
we talked to Nancy and had a lot

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of fun because she thought that we
were mad at her for some reason.

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Were you ever mad at Nancy?
No? But I love these rumors.

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Yeah, dude, the rumors are
kind of fun. I guess. Yes,

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I need to start keeping track of
all these various rumors. Yeah,

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and you were a subscriber to UFO
magazine. I certainly will, and a

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lot of people were. And one
of the things I think we got to

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clear up was what happened to UFO
magazine because a lot of subscribers, like

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you started to see them coming far, you know, not coming out as

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frequently, and then it ended and
we're probably left wondering what happened. So

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we got to talk about that.
Excellent. That sounds like a great interview.

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Yeah, and almost more interesting too, or equally interesting, is how

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they got involved with it. So
yeah, so it's a lot of fun.

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We'll talk to Nancy about all this
stuff. But before we get to

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Nancy, why don't you and I
talk some UFO news. That sounds like

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a great idea. You know What's
funny every time I get to this section

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and I'm like, well, in
transition over to UFO news, I always

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think of the little graphic in music
on spacing out little UFO news. Excellent,

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that's a good vision to have in
your mind. Yeah, so why

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don't you go first? Well,
Alejandro, I want to just throw this

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one out there because I think this
is a big deal. The fact that

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last week NASA announced that they are
infusing nearly fifty million dollars into search for

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extraterrustrial life. Now, this is
big news to me because I think astrobiology

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is an incredibly important field for not
only searching for signs of past and president

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extraterrestrial life, but also looking here
and getting a better understanding of life and

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what life is and how life works
and where it could possibly exist. I

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think it's incredibly an important field.
It's great science, and I think it's

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going to be vital in not only
discovering but also convincing the public at large

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that extraterstrial life does exist. Now, fifty million dollars is awarded to seven

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different groups, including some of NASA's
own groups, the Jet Propulsion Laboratory,

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the Goddard Space Flight Center, but
also the Seti Institute was awarded some of

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this money. So these teams are
receiving approximately eight million dollars in grant money

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and this is going to last them
for five years of astrobiology research. So

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thank you NASA. I know a
lot of people are skeptical of NASA and

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might not be the biggest NASA fans. They might suspect that NASA isn't truthful

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with us and withholds information. I
am not of that opinion. I know

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some people are, but that aside, I think it's fantastic that money is

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being spent in this field of science
that I think is incredibly important and will

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yield results very quickly. See I
agree with you about NASA. I love

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NASA. I have a glow in
the Dark NASA T shirt that I love

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to wear. Were at camping nice
last weekend, so that was a lot

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of fun. But I have mixed
feelings about this story. It frustrating on

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one end, and I'm disappointed with
NASA when it comes to astrobiology. I

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think they do a crappy job with
it. To be honest, I think

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there's a lot of other people doing
much better work when it comes to astrobiology.

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And here's some of my points.
One giving money to SETI Seti's gotten

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nowhere. I hope they do something
more worthwhile I'm not. I think they

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do a great public service reaching out
and talking to people, and I love

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them for that. I think they
have brilliant minds. I really like them.

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But the radio signal thing is a
waste of time and kind of silly,

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and I hope they do branch out
and try some new and different things

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and come up with new ideas.
That's what's exciting about this news. Hopefully

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people get some new ideas. The
other thing I mean, when it comes

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to astrobiology, like the rovers not
being able to look at things at a

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microscopic level. That means they're a
waste when it comes to astrobiology. All

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they can detect is chemicals and minerals
that might indicate, but they can't confirm

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or observe that unless it's like a
fossil or something. And even then,

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like the interview with Robert Hoover,
which I'm getting to, even when they

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observe fossils like they did in the
past, they've destroyed them and not done

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further research. So I'm really disappointed. And here's one thing I'm really disappointed

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with too. It's because the other
story that came out of of course our

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buddies at the University of Sheffield and
the University of Buckingham at the Center of

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Astrobiology, they had another story come
out where once again they say they have

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proof of extraterrestrial life. This is
nothing new, They say this periodically,

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but their evidence is growing and growing
and growing. So we talked about a

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year ago when they talked about this
and this experiment they did where they retrieved

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some stuff from the stratosphere and they
had some arguments as to why the biological

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entities that they found out there could
not have been from Earth, and now

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they have more evidence in that.
You know, this guy from Professor Milton

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Waynewright from the University of Sheffield talks
about how those were the only things up

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there. If there was wind or
something that blew these things up there,

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they would see pollens, they would
see a lot of different things, but

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they're not seeing that. So how
did they all get filtered out? And

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we're just getting these little you know
what they're calling dragon particles, these little

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what they say they're calling biological entities, single cell organisms. So I think

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what they're doing is amazing and it
would have been great to see NASA throw

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them some money or incorporate them because
I think they're really on the cusp of

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something. I'm really excited about what
those guys are doing. Well, I

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get it's about it's about, you
know, piling up that evidence. Yeah,

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it does keep mounting. And until
we can actually get people to these

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bodies and the proper scientific equipment there
in person, for these people to physically

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take specimens and do the proper analysis, everything is always going to be marked

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up as most likely contamination. You
know. I hate how absolutely everything even

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when you see like this detailed fossil
or something that they took all the necessary

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precautions, they still say, oh, that's contamination. It could be and

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it could not be. But you
know, until they actually get people there,

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I don't think they're going to be
convinced. Yeah, and you know,

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we had because Richard Hoover, who
had worked with the University of Buckingshire

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in fact, he was what was
he He was like a temporary he worked

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with him for a while, but
he's a NASA scientist astrobiologist. We had

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him at the conference last year and
he talked about also, you know,

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the evidence that he feels that as
a mass that NASA's kind of just not

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taking serious yet. Yeah. It's
always interesting with things like this. There

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have been so many great stories and
stories that involve nasta's own people like Richard

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Hoover, that you know, just
get kind of pushed to the side.

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So I am very confused by responses
like that. But I'm hoping that,

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you know, future research will pave
the way to conclusive evidence that people just

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can't ignore anymore. Yeah, it
is exciting. I mean that's why I

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feel so you know, happy that
we had Hoover there last year. You

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were able to get him. You
were really persistent to talk to him and

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to get him to come to the
conference. And that's so cool because I'm

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just amazed by what they're doing and
it seems like they're really getting close to

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something, and to me, it
seems like they're really kind of the most

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cutting edge and most prompt when it
comes to astrobiology. So really cool.

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I'm happy that you were able to
get him. That I think was really

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one of the biggest highlights of the
Congress that in the last few years.

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And what I really like about some
of the research that those guys are doing

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is that they are up against this
huge opposition and their work is constantly criticized,

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but you know what, they keep
at it and they keep coming back

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more and more and more. It's
just great that you know, they don't

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they don't get I mean, they
probably do get frustrated, as they should.

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It's frustrating, but they don't let
that stop them. Right. So

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the first story I want to talk
about even not I kind of slipped in

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that astrobiology when Night we wrote about
both all of this, so people can

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go check those out. But this
is really cool. I think you probably

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saw this since you got back,
But American University, Leslie Kane had put

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this on Facebook that she was going
to speak speaking at American University. So

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I went and looked it up and
wrote about it, and this is really

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really cool. So there is a
professor there, John Weisskopp, and he

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has a honors colloquium colloqui. How
do you say it, quem colloquium,

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colloquium colloquium. I think that's what
it is. I loved hearing that progression.

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That was great, and that's called
alien contact science and science fiction.

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So he's not clear necessarily on his
views of this, but I think the

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panel that he's bringing to the university
does show that. It's called UFO's Encounters

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by General's Pilots and Government Officials of
course, very similar to Leslie Kyne's book,

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UFO's General's Pilots and Government Officials go
on the record and American University,

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if people don't know, this is
in DC, and this is like a

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big deal. This is like where
we're world leaders and it's one of their

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things. They like to have world
leaders on their campus and they go there

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and talked it was This university was
created by charter by an Act of Congress.

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I mean, this place is a
big deal in DC when it comes

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to politics. And they are having
a UFO panel in November. They're going

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to have leslie Kine there. They're
also going to have Charles Holt of course,

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the Rendalsham witness, the man who
is the deputy base commander during the

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Rendalshim event. They're going to have
Tom Kerry, who's really Don Schmidt's research

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partner and an author and one of
the leading experts on roswell. And then

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they're going to have doctor Richard Haynes
who works with the National Aviation Reporting Center

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on anomalist phenomena NARACAP and he is
a former NASA researcher. He was actually

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chief for Space Human Factor's Office at
NASA's Ames Research Center. And these are

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all pro UFO people that are and
very very credible people that are going to

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do this panel on UFOs in November. And it's going to be hosted by

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Miles O'Brien who was a CNN anchor. He made some news most recently where

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sadly he had an accident and his
left arm was amputated from above the elbow

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down, but he had this amazing
positive attitude about it and I think shocked

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the world. If you follow the
news, you probably saw this where he

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was just had these really positive aspects. So he's going to be hosting.

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And what's great about this is that
he did some UFO reporting a few years

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ago. He did a whole week
long, different story each week, and

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he talked about his UFO siding.
So he's had a UFO siding. He

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says, he's a pilot. He
knows what things should do. And he

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saw like, you know, this
bright thing flying across the sky and then

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it took off at quick speed at
common citing that people have and so really

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really cool. I think this is
important and this is going to be a

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big deal. I mean, it
just blew my mind that this is going

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to be held at American University.
Yeah, that's very cool. I'm glad

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to see that they're doing this.
I'm glad to see it's you know,

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on a platform like that. And
more and more universities are addressing this topic

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and having guest speakers and special lectures
on the extraterrestrial topic, this one being

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in DC. It's good to have. It's kind of on a national platform

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with a former CNN anchor as a
moderator. I think that's cool. So

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I hope that this generates some attention, and I hope the university actually appreciates

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it and continues to have events like
this. And I think it's so cool

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that Leslie. I mean, I
love the way Leslie approaches this field.

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I think it's important. I think
it's it's what quite frankly, I think

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it's what mouf On should be doing
because they say they, you know,

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their mission is the scientific study of
the field. And I think people hesitate,

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you know, because the kind of
stuff she does isn't always the main

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focus of what we would call you
the UFO enthusiast or something like that.

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But she is demonstrating because she gets
more attention and serious attention than anybody.

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Her book is a New York Times
bestseller, she has gotten positive comments from

245
00:20:40.920 --> 00:20:47.640
Mitchell Okaku other big astronomers, and
what she's doing is getting the big time

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attention that you know is needed.
So I really got to say it's wonderful

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that she does what she does and
hats after her. Yeah, I agree,

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absolutely. Looking a move on a
couple other things, who we could

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talk about another thing that I disagree
with move On with and I want to

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get your idea real quick. Just
that move On put out their UFO alert

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and they change their system luckily thankfully, because it wasn't as accurate. I

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don't think they now they do it
by population, which is much more accurate.

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So you can see that on our
website. They posted a new story

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with these multiple UFOs showing up in
Georgia, but it kind of a cheesy

255
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picture. I'm not a big fan
of this case. But the Colorado,

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Utah case that you wrote about,
Jason, of course, is a really

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awesome case. That's incredible, and
it's kind of cool because Roger did post

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a story Roger marsh from mofon on
a bunch of cases in Colorado and Utah

259
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of similar sightings. Their researchers are
saying they're mostly Google loon balloons, which

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I completely disagree with. I think
that's it's kind of silly to even be

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saying that, quite honestly, but
I do agree that most of what they're

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spotting here is most likely balloons.
However, I note that at least one

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move On investigator tried to get Ahold
of nine News and tell them that nine

264
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News ignored them, which I would
have done also because you have to have

265
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some evidence. And what the reporter
reported doesn't sound like a balloon because he

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says it sat there for fifteen minutes
before a bright flash and then this thing's

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speeding off at great speed. You
know, these other cases may be a

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balloon, probably are balloons, but
his you got to explain that. You

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got to explain how a balloon would
do that, and you've got to prove

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that these are loon balloons. They
could be any balloons. Why are they

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saying loon balloons? I don't get
that. Well, that's because it's trendy

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now, you know. Yeah,
they've they've come forward and claimed responsibility for

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UFO sightings in the past, and
now they're more public with the distance and

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what they are and where they launched
from and things like that. So yeah,

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it's going to become kind of a
trendy thing like Chinese lanterns. But

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yeah, I think that's, you
know, really kind of sloppy. It

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You can't just choose some facts to
pay attention to and ignore others. I

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mean that. Yeah, again,
we say this with all sightings. It

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comes down to how much you want
to believe the witness testimony or not.

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If we are to believe the newscaster
who went out and recorded these things for

281
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fifteen minutes saw them hovering and then
shoot off at incredible speeds, that's not

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a balloon. Yeah, yeah,
I agree with you. And he didn't

283
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get a video of that, so
we have to rely on his testimony,

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so which of course can be difficult. But you can't You definitely can't go

285
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tell this reporter, hey, we
think that you were totally wrong and you

286
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didn't see what you see and you
should report on this. Uh yeah,

287
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right, Okay, I'm gonna write
a story about how, oh it was

288
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a balloon and I was completely fooled. I didn't see this thing shoot off.

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I mean, that doesn't make sense. The other problem I have is,

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I know part of the reason they're
calling it a Google balloon is because

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in September, I think it was, yeah, September, there was a

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couple of sightings that they did find
were Google balloons. But they were able

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to go to this flight flight Radar
twenty four thing that tracks the Google balloons,

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and they were able to show that
the Google balloons were there because they

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saw the signature, the transponder signal. So in these cases, if you're

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gonna call them Google balloons, which
is even possible maybe one or two were

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you have to go get that data. Otherwise all you can say is it's

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most likely an unidentified balloon. But
you can't say Google balloon, for God's

299
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sakes. And then when it comes
to the nine News reporter, I think,

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yeah, you got to look for
some other explanation there. I agree.

301
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I mean, the responsible thing to
do is say, look based on

302
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the appearance and things like that.
In many other cases, these turn out

303
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to be balloons because that's what the
behavior and the appearance would lead us to

304
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believe. But this one little nugget, this important nugget hanging out there,

305
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is the fact that the eyewitnesses saw
these things shooting off. You can't ignore

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them. Yep. I agree.
So some more work needs to be put

307
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in on this one, I think. So any any other news or anything

308
00:25:33.680 --> 00:25:37.759
you wanted to talk about before we
move on to the interview to there,

309
00:25:37.839 --> 00:25:41.279
Jason, No, I don't think
there's anything else I need to talk about

310
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except thank you for calling me super
and wonderful or whatever you called me today.

311
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I really appreciate you called you wonderful
and super Jason wonderful and super.

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00:25:51.039 --> 00:25:52.720
Yeah, if I didn't feel like
a superhero at Comic Con, I assure

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00:25:52.799 --> 00:25:59.039
do now, good good, all
right, So, without further Ado,

314
00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:07.359
let us listen to the interview with
Nancy Burns. I am so excited to

315
00:26:08.160 --> 00:26:15.559
have on the show Nancy Burns,
who who feels like she isn't as relevant

316
00:26:15.599 --> 00:26:18.759
to this field, which I think
is silly because you were the editor for

317
00:26:18.920 --> 00:26:23.319
UFO magazine for so long, right, but I'm not the original editor by

318
00:26:23.319 --> 00:26:29.680
any stretch. But how long did
you edit for REFO magazine? Ten years?

319
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Wow? That is a long time. Yeah, yeah, you know

320
00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:40.359
because with our magazine, a lot
of the people who worked here weren't in

321
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the field before we started. But
by editing and being involved with in a

322
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magazine, you learned so much.
You have to read so many stories,

323
00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:52.119
yes you do, and you you
have to make decisions. That's I think.

324
00:26:52.160 --> 00:26:56.759
The only thing you bring to the
table is your taste and your your

325
00:26:57.519 --> 00:27:02.319
In my case, I try to
make sure that it's the truth if at

326
00:27:02.359 --> 00:27:07.960
all possible, because our field is
fraught with uh con artists, you know,

327
00:27:07.039 --> 00:27:12.559
and hoaxers and people who are troubled, who are out and out to

328
00:27:12.920 --> 00:27:17.359
uh, you know, government plans, and then I think we have a

329
00:27:17.559 --> 00:27:22.000
nice, healthy group of real solid
citizens who are honest and true. And

330
00:27:22.039 --> 00:27:26.559
that's kind of what what I wanted
to publish the magazine for that healthy group

331
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in the middle. Yeah. But
you know, I the thing is,

332
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I came into the magazine under the
auspices of the Eckers Don and Vickie Ecker

333
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and that colored everything about my entrance
in the field. It just completely you

334
00:27:45.640 --> 00:27:48.880
know, I was under the I
was under the guidance of two people who

335
00:27:49.000 --> 00:27:56.079
had worked really hard to make a
magazine, you know, which they've done.

336
00:27:56.160 --> 00:28:00.839
You know, that's a huge legacy. Were they the one who started

337
00:28:00.839 --> 00:28:08.839
the magazine? Just Vicky Vicky?
Yeah, because Vicky her friend Sherry Stark

338
00:28:10.279 --> 00:28:12.440
started it in I believe nineteen eighty
six, I believe, I know.

339
00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:21.440
And you know, by the time
Bill and I came into their lives because

340
00:28:21.440 --> 00:28:25.839
of the Corso book, they had
gotten to the point where they were just

341
00:28:25.880 --> 00:28:30.279
sick of it. They were done. They had just basically had their fourth

342
00:28:30.359 --> 00:28:36.880
or fifth burnout, and so we
came in and you know, the rest

343
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:41.480
is history. So there's yeah,
there's that, but yeah, but it's

344
00:28:41.599 --> 00:28:45.640
very rocky, and that's why I
wanted to ask you the question, how

345
00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:49.359
did you get hired? In other
words, how did open Minds come about?

346
00:28:51.039 --> 00:28:53.480
It's not I know, I'm not
supposed to do that, but you

347
00:28:53.480 --> 00:28:57.039
you're already doing this. I was
expecting that, and I got to answer

348
00:28:57.079 --> 00:29:00.880
because I you know, just just
really, yeah, you can do it.

349
00:29:00.279 --> 00:29:04.759
So it started with really, you
know, my boss John Reyo,

350
00:29:06.720 --> 00:29:11.960
he had made himself a lot of
money, and he makes a lot of

351
00:29:11.960 --> 00:29:15.599
money with his other businesses, and
he just wanted something to do. I

352
00:29:15.640 --> 00:29:19.079
mean, he's kind of in a
semi retired mode and gets bored with the

353
00:29:19.160 --> 00:29:25.000
regular day to day. He actually, this is interesting. He went to

354
00:29:25.400 --> 00:29:29.279
Las Vegas with his wife. She
was going to a conference. He was

355
00:29:29.359 --> 00:29:33.880
bored. He wandered down the street
and saw there was a UFO Crash conference

356
00:29:33.920 --> 00:29:37.759
going on. This is the one
that the Bill probably spoke there at some

357
00:29:37.839 --> 00:29:41.519
point, but that was Woods perhaps, yeah, the Woods conference. He

358
00:29:41.559 --> 00:29:45.279
thought it sounded ridiculous, but he
would pop in there. And not a

359
00:29:45.319 --> 00:29:48.839
lot of people knew about this conference
because really, the Woods weren't the best

360
00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:52.799
at networking and getting the word out
not only that, Alejandro, I have

361
00:29:52.880 --> 00:29:56.680
to tell you, before you guys
came into the business, the conference,

362
00:29:59.680 --> 00:30:03.960
the conference business was petering out into
true I would agree, Oh my goodness,

363
00:30:03.960 --> 00:30:07.680
you have no idea. I just
wrote a piece about all this because

364
00:30:07.680 --> 00:30:11.079
I'm starting to try to come out
of the shadows of this thing and try

365
00:30:11.119 --> 00:30:14.559
to figure out what I'm going to
do with my life. Because you know,

366
00:30:15.440 --> 00:30:21.880
the fellow that we licensed the magazine
from pulled the license this past let's

367
00:30:21.880 --> 00:30:26.759
say this year, and we basically
have found ourselves, you know, the

368
00:30:26.839 --> 00:30:30.319
magazine had to and it's a very
again, it's a rocky road, and

369
00:30:30.799 --> 00:30:33.400
the rocky road ends and it kind
of a crash at the end. So

370
00:30:33.480 --> 00:30:38.000
and I wanted to ask about this
because and you know, we'll finish off

371
00:30:38.079 --> 00:30:41.720
even though we're going into a tangent, but I think this is important.

372
00:30:41.119 --> 00:30:45.880
So you all at some point,
did you and Bill own the magazine?

373
00:30:47.319 --> 00:30:52.359
No, we never owned it.
Okay, See, how could I put

374
00:30:52.359 --> 00:30:57.039
this? You know, you don't
probably handle the financial part of the magazine.

375
00:30:57.079 --> 00:31:00.400
You only do the editorial. I
would bet, right for the most

376
00:31:00.400 --> 00:31:03.880
part, that is true. I
mean I'm aware of the financial part,

377
00:31:06.400 --> 00:31:10.720
but you're correct. Yeah, So
you're aware that it's expensive to make a

378
00:31:10.720 --> 00:31:14.240
print application, right, So that's
that's the only real thing you need to

379
00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:19.039
be aware of. And it's expensive, and you can make crucial mistakes.

380
00:31:19.599 --> 00:31:25.920
At various times. We were monthly, which is really killer, you know.

381
00:31:26.960 --> 00:31:30.519
It's it's many. It's twenty or
so thousand dollars a month just to

382
00:31:30.519 --> 00:31:34.519
get the thing on the press,
off the press, into the mail trucks,

383
00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:38.880
so forth and so on. So
it's a very expensive operation and everything

384
00:31:38.960 --> 00:31:44.079
has to be kind of working in
coordination. Your subscriptions have to be coming

385
00:31:44.119 --> 00:31:45.759
in, your advertising has to becoming
in that sort of thing. So it's

386
00:31:45.759 --> 00:31:51.200
a financial it's a financial thing that
you have to learn how to do.

387
00:31:52.039 --> 00:31:56.799
And when we so basically what happened
was the Ackers had fallen apart on the

388
00:31:56.839 --> 00:32:00.519
financial part. By the time they
met Bill in ninety seven, their finances

389
00:32:00.640 --> 00:32:06.480
were crashed. It happens all the
time in the magazine businesses. No fault

390
00:32:06.559 --> 00:32:10.160
of the Eckers, but it's hard
and so another thing that happens back in

391
00:32:10.200 --> 00:32:16.359
the day, the distribution of a
magazine is the rougher part of the of

392
00:32:16.440 --> 00:32:24.759
the equation. That's where truckers and
unions and burly guys who call you up

393
00:32:24.799 --> 00:32:30.240
and will make you a deal.
And so the Eckers made a deal for

394
00:32:30.480 --> 00:32:35.160
you know something, if you print
an extra thirty thousand, we'll put your

395
00:32:35.240 --> 00:32:40.119
magazine right up front in the stores. A deal like that. And unknown

396
00:32:40.200 --> 00:32:45.720
to the Eckers, they had involved, you know, they had their own

397
00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:50.319
house of mortgage involved in this deal. Yeah, so it was a crisis

398
00:32:50.359 --> 00:32:54.160
when they met Bill, and they
met Bill only to interview him for the

399
00:32:54.240 --> 00:33:00.319
Day after Oswell in nineteen ninety seven. And so Bill is a kind of

400
00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:06.920
person who can put things together.
He can, he's he's he's he knows,

401
00:33:07.160 --> 00:33:09.079
you know, he knew the people
who were involved with the Day after

402
00:33:09.160 --> 00:33:14.400
Roswell book, they were a movie
company, and he, you know,

403
00:33:14.440 --> 00:33:16.200
he brought the idea to them that, you know, maybe they would want

404
00:33:16.240 --> 00:33:20.759
to buy a magazine. And that's
what happened. They bought the magazine and

405
00:33:21.119 --> 00:33:27.160
they retained ownership of it. Uh. And at a certain point after a

406
00:33:27.200 --> 00:33:30.480
few years, they wanted to sell
the magazine. They wanted to sell it,

407
00:33:30.519 --> 00:33:35.240
I think from the from the beginning. But they sold it to Bill

408
00:33:35.480 --> 00:33:37.119
or they sold it to a group
of five of us, including me and

409
00:33:37.160 --> 00:33:42.519
Bill. Uh. And the Eckers
and one other fellow for a dollar.

410
00:33:44.119 --> 00:33:47.079
They simply wanted they wanted out of
them, of the UFO business, partly

411
00:33:47.119 --> 00:33:51.680
because they were doing a lot of
work with Christian groups. Uh, this

412
00:33:51.839 --> 00:33:55.240
is a this is a this is
a motion picture licensing corporation, and they

413
00:33:55.359 --> 00:34:01.920
licensed, they used to license movies
to girls, Scouts and church groups.

414
00:34:01.960 --> 00:34:06.839
And so they wanted away from the
UFO magazine name. And in fact,

415
00:34:07.559 --> 00:34:10.920
you know, that's probably a smart
thing because, as you know, the

416
00:34:12.039 --> 00:34:16.360
UFO field dips into every other field. It doesn't stay the UFO field.

417
00:34:16.360 --> 00:34:23.320
It dips into new Age, and
it dips into demonology, it dips into

418
00:34:23.559 --> 00:34:28.880
conspiracy, and so if you're a
purely Christian kind of situation, you're not

419
00:34:28.880 --> 00:34:30.519
going to want to go go into
those places. So they want it,

420
00:34:30.719 --> 00:34:35.559
they want it rid of the magazine. So I'm answering your questions and I

421
00:34:35.599 --> 00:34:37.840
never get a chance to talk about
this, and so I'm thrilled to be

422
00:34:37.880 --> 00:34:39.880
able to answer in a long way. Yeah. Well, that's what's great,

423
00:34:39.920 --> 00:34:44.440
because I don't think people know this, and I think people are extremely

424
00:34:44.480 --> 00:34:46.559
curious. Well I know they are, because you know, because we had

425
00:34:46.599 --> 00:34:52.480
a magazine, people would always ask
us about UFO magazine, and we didn't

426
00:34:52.519 --> 00:34:58.480
know details. But you know,
we subscribed here at the office, and

427
00:34:59.679 --> 00:35:07.079
some of us as individuals were subscribers, and so we ended up fighting all

428
00:35:07.119 --> 00:35:09.719
the time. There was endless fighting
behind the scenes. It wasn't a good

429
00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:16.159
match. The Eckers are independent,
the Burnses are independent. We clashed.

430
00:35:16.199 --> 00:35:20.400
We didn't. And then here's the
big thing, and this is the legacy

431
00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:29.519
that I'm now having having fun with. The Eckers had created their friends and

432
00:35:29.559 --> 00:35:32.840
their enemies lists, their friends list, their enemies list, and I coming

433
00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:37.960
in felt that I had out of
loyalty, I had to kind of abide

434
00:35:37.960 --> 00:35:40.760
by those two lists, you know, and I didn't know anybody in the

435
00:35:40.760 --> 00:35:45.639
field zero and so I just simply
you know, it's it wasn't written down,

436
00:35:45.719 --> 00:35:51.199
but every editorial meeting, uh,
they would definitely you know, let

437
00:35:51.239 --> 00:35:54.199
us know who they liked and who
they didn't like. And I now am

438
00:35:55.400 --> 00:35:59.920
like, in the case of yourself, I'm only now making friends with people

439
00:36:00.280 --> 00:36:06.599
after the magazine kind of blew apart
this year and we lost our license.

440
00:36:07.360 --> 00:36:10.039
I'm now making friends with people that
I felt that I shouldn't have been friends

441
00:36:10.039 --> 00:36:15.000
with before, just out of loyalty. Loyalty is a huge thing for both

442
00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:19.599
Bill and myself. We really,
you know, we'll stand there and be

443
00:36:19.639 --> 00:36:23.519
loyal till the last person leaves the
room, basically, even though it's not

444
00:36:23.559 --> 00:36:29.760
necessary. But that's but because of
that, So there's that I had to

445
00:36:29.840 --> 00:36:35.000
honor. You know, like Donaker
would get gets into a lot of fights

446
00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:38.760
with people, and I felt that, like it happened so much in this

447
00:36:38.960 --> 00:36:45.119
field, and it's so hard to
remain friends. I'm embroiled in a debate

448
00:36:45.199 --> 00:36:51.519
with dand Freedman right now, but
we stay friendly. I don't think I

449
00:36:51.599 --> 00:36:55.639
have any enemies. The closest would
be maybe Michael Horne, because you know,

450
00:36:55.800 --> 00:37:00.480
I'm at my WIT's end with that
guy, and he's just been so

451
00:37:00.559 --> 00:37:05.239
blatantly deceitful with some things that he's
went. But I don't know that i'd

452
00:37:05.239 --> 00:37:07.840
call him an enemy so much.
Well, here here's the thing. When

453
00:37:07.880 --> 00:37:12.519
you started, but I'm done with
the guy, I understand that. And

454
00:37:12.519 --> 00:37:16.079
and if you have, if you
bring on an editorial assistant, you would

455
00:37:16.159 --> 00:37:21.760
like that assistant to not start up
Michael Horn again saying we should investigate this.

456
00:37:21.800 --> 00:37:24.159
I don't agree. Yeah, Well, so when you came into the

457
00:37:24.199 --> 00:37:30.440
field when you started to see.
But I don't mind so much what you

458
00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:35.239
don't get. You know, if
if I brought on someone who wanted to

459
00:37:35.280 --> 00:37:37.119
go do that, I would say, go for it. I would just

460
00:37:37.199 --> 00:37:45.199
say that there there will be some
boundaries because for instance, you know this

461
00:37:45.239 --> 00:37:47.280
week, you know, they'll they'll
focus him. And if guys will focus

462
00:37:47.360 --> 00:37:52.360
and they'll come at and try to
blitch you with stuff and and the buseys

463
00:37:52.400 --> 00:37:55.559
bully tactics that I'm just not gonna
fall prey to. I'm just not going

464
00:37:55.639 --> 00:38:00.239
to let that happen. And so
i'd have to tell that person, well,

465
00:38:00.679 --> 00:38:04.519
just so you know, you know, we're going to limit that conversation.

466
00:38:05.079 --> 00:38:07.719
But you write whatever you want,
you know, because I don't like

467
00:38:07.800 --> 00:38:12.679
to push my view. You know, we try to be real German.

468
00:38:12.760 --> 00:38:15.000
Well, that's what I wanted to
ask you. When you first started,

469
00:38:15.239 --> 00:38:19.719
did anybody give you a list of
friends and enemies? No? Okay,

470
00:38:19.760 --> 00:38:24.440
I came though. I was.
There were there were three euphologists, essentially,

471
00:38:24.480 --> 00:38:32.039
people who've been in this field for
a long time who and I don't

472
00:38:32.079 --> 00:38:35.760
know. I I think out of
the three, I probably had the strongest

473
00:38:35.800 --> 00:38:42.639
personality. You're familiar with the other
two Marizio Bayada, who, oh goodness,

474
00:38:42.800 --> 00:38:45.880
yeah, who certainly has his own
opinions and stuff. No, no,

475
00:38:45.880 --> 00:38:50.039
no, no, no, way, worse, way worse. I

476
00:38:50.039 --> 00:38:54.800
don't know that. Well are you
friends with him? I would say that

477
00:38:55.119 --> 00:38:59.320
I. Well, here's and you
know, I don't know if people,

478
00:39:00.119 --> 00:39:02.760
not many people really know the whole
background. But the difficulty came he he

479
00:39:02.800 --> 00:39:08.840
doesn't speak English very good. He
at least my views were very different,

480
00:39:10.159 --> 00:39:15.119
and you know, I didn't certainly
didn't agree with his conspiracy theories, with

481
00:39:15.280 --> 00:39:20.519
his enemies, you know, he
created Oh yeah, I'm sure that's where

482
00:39:20.519 --> 00:39:25.159
you're going to go. But oh
yeah, anybody who's his enemy has to,

483
00:39:25.480 --> 00:39:29.199
you know, be in with the
government or something like that. I

484
00:39:29.280 --> 00:39:32.159
liked him as a person and stuff, but what happened was, you know,

485
00:39:32.360 --> 00:39:37.360
he just couldn't start up the magazine, which was his job, so

486
00:39:37.800 --> 00:39:44.159
and so he had to move on
and the job was his only ticket to

487
00:39:44.159 --> 00:39:46.199
stay in the country, so he
had to go home. I didn't know

488
00:39:46.239 --> 00:39:50.920
that. Yeah. So the other
person, just so you're aware, was

489
00:39:51.000 --> 00:39:57.719
Antonio Junez, who he's amazing.
His mind is like an encyclopedia in this

490
00:39:57.800 --> 00:40:00.920
field. He's been a journalist in
this field for a long time. He

491
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:05.960
and I, because he was much
more journalistic, were more aligned and he

492
00:40:06.079 --> 00:40:09.119
was absolutely amazing. So he was
the other guy there. But he doesn't

493
00:40:09.159 --> 00:40:15.480
really have much in the way of
enemies either. So you always get people

494
00:40:15.480 --> 00:40:19.039
who kind of get wary of you
or just disappointed maybe in the way you've

495
00:40:19.079 --> 00:40:22.400
covered something, and he had that, but no real enemy. So that

496
00:40:22.559 --> 00:40:28.079
was kind of the scene. And
I'm kind of bold enough where it's been

497
00:40:28.119 --> 00:40:31.239
my thing since the get go.
I mean, I was the Moufon spokesperson

498
00:40:31.280 --> 00:40:35.639
before I came here. That's exactly
what I was doing. So of course

499
00:40:35.719 --> 00:40:39.960
Moufon has a lot of enemies and
people disappointed with them, so I learned

500
00:40:40.000 --> 00:40:46.000
how to be very diplomatic. So
I've always been really diplomatic and allow people

501
00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:51.519
to share their views. I like
to share the facts, not call out

502
00:40:51.559 --> 00:40:55.599
hoaxers. But you know, the
facts speak for themselves in many cases,

503
00:40:55.719 --> 00:41:00.199
so a lot of hoaxers feel I'm
calling them out when I'm just sharing the

504
00:41:00.239 --> 00:41:06.599
facts and the facts don't play well
from them. But so that was the

505
00:41:06.679 --> 00:41:10.159
kind of landscape there. I didn't
know that Mauricio was involved at all.

506
00:41:10.199 --> 00:41:14.239
I kind of I think I might
have forgotten that because it was early on.

507
00:41:14.360 --> 00:41:16.800
So he was gone before things got
rolling, because he was supposed to

508
00:41:16.840 --> 00:41:22.119
be the guy to get stuff rolling
and he really couldn't. So okay,

509
00:41:22.159 --> 00:41:25.920
so let me fill you in on
our relationship with Mauricio and this you'll be

510
00:41:27.000 --> 00:41:30.800
fascinated. I think I know some
of the history, and I'm fascinated with

511
00:41:30.880 --> 00:41:35.079
at least the side of things that
I do know. Right well, you

512
00:41:35.119 --> 00:41:40.440
know, the thing is that if
another thing about coming into this UFO field

513
00:41:40.679 --> 00:41:46.320
is if you're lucky enough to have
a successful book or a successful TV show,

514
00:41:46.440 --> 00:41:53.719
or a successful magazine or anything successful, you'll suddenly get your share of

515
00:41:55.880 --> 00:42:00.159
wolves and sheep's clothing, people who
come at you saying, I want to

516
00:42:00.159 --> 00:42:04.199
be your friend. What can you
know? I love this story, I

517
00:42:04.280 --> 00:42:10.880
want to interview yours whatever. And
so when and before there was UFO magazine,

518
00:42:10.880 --> 00:42:15.679
there was the day after Oswell and
and and I'm Bill's wife, I'm

519
00:42:15.719 --> 00:42:22.840
Bill Burns' wife, and so let's
see here. People saw a gold mine

520
00:42:22.960 --> 00:42:29.760
in that book. And for people
who aren't aware, because that's what's interesting

521
00:42:29.760 --> 00:42:31.360
about this field. There's people coming
into this field. Yeah, I love

522
00:42:31.440 --> 00:42:35.480
the time. And so you got
to update. I'm on the history and

523
00:42:35.519 --> 00:42:38.199
of course some people don't know.
Yeah, you all wrote the book on

524
00:42:38.800 --> 00:42:45.760
our bill helped with Corso writing the
book about Philip Corso and his involvement with

525
00:42:45.119 --> 00:42:50.480
extraterrestrials and ets from the Pentagon.
And it was a New York Times bestseller,

526
00:42:50.920 --> 00:42:53.239
right it was on the front page
of the New York Times around the

527
00:42:53.280 --> 00:42:58.679
fourth of July. When we timed
the book, we actually had to hustle

528
00:42:58.719 --> 00:43:01.519
that book into production really quickly,
and back in the day, there was

529
00:43:01.559 --> 00:43:05.800
always nine months. It was always
like a baby. Your book took nine

530
00:43:05.800 --> 00:43:10.960
months from you know finished to hand, you know, physical book, and

531
00:43:12.360 --> 00:43:15.400
so we really really worked hard to
do that, and there was no index,

532
00:43:15.159 --> 00:43:21.039
partly because of the rush, and
then because we've you know, Bill

533
00:43:21.079 --> 00:43:25.719
and I have been book packagers since
book packages are a term for book producing.

534
00:43:27.159 --> 00:43:30.840
We are agents and illustrators and we
do all kinds of book stuff since

535
00:43:31.880 --> 00:43:36.559
I think eighty one when we started
our company nineteen eighty one, shadow On

536
00:43:36.679 --> 00:43:43.400
Press, and so as packagers,
we knew things like there's a fiftieth anniversary

537
00:43:43.440 --> 00:43:45.639
coming up, it'd be really nice
to you know, have the book ready.

538
00:43:45.679 --> 00:43:49.800
We knew that would be important,
and so we entered the field,

539
00:43:49.920 --> 00:43:54.800
you know, and again we entered
the field with Lordie. There is more

540
00:43:54.880 --> 00:44:00.920
behind it. There's the uninteresting stuff
is that I'm a novelist and I was

541
00:44:00.960 --> 00:44:06.039
working on a novel about the UFO
phenomenon. That's kind of how Bill got

542
00:44:06.039 --> 00:44:09.639
interested, because I was sharing my
research with him. And this is before

543
00:44:09.679 --> 00:44:15.960
the internet, and this is when
we came west. We came west to

544
00:44:15.960 --> 00:44:20.880
in nineteen ninety. I believe we
moved to California for twenty years, almost

545
00:44:20.880 --> 00:44:24.000
twenty years. And I was at
that time, in nineteen ninety writing a

546
00:44:24.039 --> 00:44:30.840
book about UFOs and stuff because I
was born in nineteen forty seven and felt,

547
00:44:31.599 --> 00:44:37.559
you know, I felt I could
use the idea of being switched at

548
00:44:37.639 --> 00:44:39.239
birth, and I was going to
make a fictional thing and so forth and

549
00:44:39.239 --> 00:44:44.400
so on, and so I have
the kind of interest just because of my

550
00:44:44.480 --> 00:44:49.000
birth here and because you look at
what year were you born? Seventy three,

551
00:44:49.079 --> 00:44:52.079
which was another big UFO year,
actually was it? Yeah? Well

552
00:44:52.079 --> 00:44:55.400
see also, everything that happens in
seventy three just kind of feels kind of

553
00:44:55.519 --> 00:45:00.800
friendly to yourself, right, It's
kind of like your year your mom might

554
00:45:00.840 --> 00:45:05.480
have saved the front page women you
were born and stuff, and so,

555
00:45:05.480 --> 00:45:07.800
you know, so nineteen forty seven
resonates with me because it's just, you

556
00:45:07.840 --> 00:45:13.360
know, I came here and so
I think I've gone off. I've gone

557
00:45:13.360 --> 00:45:15.960
I've skidded onto a cult sect.
But anyway, so of course the Corso

558
00:45:16.039 --> 00:45:21.079
Book comes along. We do the
Corso Book, and our lives are forever

559
00:45:21.159 --> 00:45:24.719
changed because now we are. For
example, when we went to Roswell to

560
00:45:24.760 --> 00:45:30.880
do the you know, to introduce
the book, that's the first time we

561
00:45:30.920 --> 00:45:35.360
met Stanton and he was in the
back of the room, angrier than a

562
00:45:35.920 --> 00:45:38.519
than a you know, than a
pile of beas, because he had gotten

563
00:45:38.519 --> 00:45:43.000
I'm sure he'd gotten the galleys.
Kevin Randall was there. He's a big,

564
00:45:43.039 --> 00:45:45.280
handsome man, I think, you
know, you know, Bill and

565
00:45:45.280 --> 00:45:47.800
I are both short, and Kevin
is a good looking guy. And he

566
00:45:49.360 --> 00:45:52.559
had his arms folded the whole time
I was talking to him, and he

567
00:45:52.599 --> 00:45:54.480
had you know, I had a
cowboy hat on. I became see it,

568
00:45:54.800 --> 00:45:59.679
yeah, and he just these guys
were the leaders in the field.

569
00:45:59.679 --> 00:46:01.159
They are the leaders in the field. They were not having any of this.

570
00:46:01.559 --> 00:46:05.440
And Bill's kind of you know,
of course, I was a little

571
00:46:05.440 --> 00:46:09.760
guy. He's a weird little guy, comes out of nowhere, and and

572
00:46:09.920 --> 00:46:14.280
he came with his whole family to
the Roswell fiftieth thing and all that,

573
00:46:14.360 --> 00:46:16.840
and and and so you know,
I'd like to tell these stories. And

574
00:46:16.880 --> 00:46:20.599
I'm thinking of, you know,
I'm kind of putting the stuff together now,

575
00:46:21.000 --> 00:46:24.199
and I'm just kind of scanning stuff
in and you know, and that's

576
00:46:24.239 --> 00:46:29.840
the other thing, Alejandro. You
also were born before the internet kind of

577
00:46:30.360 --> 00:46:35.239
happened, and so all of your
baby pictures have to be scanned if you

578
00:46:35.400 --> 00:46:38.360
want your grandkids to see them on
the internet. Yeah, and so I'm

579
00:46:38.440 --> 00:46:43.519
scanning stuff. I'm literally living in
front of the scanner, scanning stuff in

580
00:46:43.719 --> 00:46:47.760
so but anyway, so you had
a question in there somewhere and I think

581
00:46:47.800 --> 00:46:51.519
I lost. We all lost,
arthurriads. No, it was kind of

582
00:46:51.519 --> 00:46:58.079
the inception of UFO magazine. And
and actually you were gonna You're talking about

583
00:46:58.119 --> 00:47:01.280
how you know, you had list
and how this came all this came about,

584
00:47:01.320 --> 00:47:06.280
and how you inspired the ire of
so many people, which I can

585
00:47:06.480 --> 00:47:14.639
see especially with these guys, because
you know, it's kind of a you

586
00:47:14.679 --> 00:47:21.679
know, this field largely was led
by and a lot of the old timers

587
00:47:21.679 --> 00:47:24.920
are grumpy old men. And I
think you really got a kind of and

588
00:47:25.480 --> 00:47:29.599
you know, and I think you'd
probably admit since you're you're a bold and

589
00:47:29.719 --> 00:47:34.039
open person, I think you won't
you won't take offensive. I say,

590
00:47:34.239 --> 00:47:37.760
Bill Burns can kind of be one
of those grumpy old men. Well no,

591
00:47:37.800 --> 00:47:42.119
I think just the opposite. He
came in as a young, crazy

592
00:47:42.159 --> 00:47:45.559
guy, like a New yorkhow oh, but these you know, well,

593
00:47:45.599 --> 00:47:50.280
and maybe it's just because he gets
a he's gotten embroiled and battles and and

594
00:47:50.400 --> 00:47:53.079
started some here and there. Well, here's the thing. The Corso book,

595
00:47:53.480 --> 00:47:59.239
frankly is full of inaccuracies. And
there was never here's the big thing.

596
00:47:59.559 --> 00:48:06.599
I think, you know, it's
full of inaccuracies because it's kind of

597
00:48:06.639 --> 00:48:10.039
hard to explain it happened. We
had to do it quickly. Corso has

598
00:48:10.119 --> 00:48:16.639
a firm, solid core story that
we did as much research as we could

599
00:48:17.440 --> 00:48:21.000
in the short period of time we
had. And Corso had done a lifetime

600
00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:25.159
of research, and so that's sort
of. But Corso had never experienced New

601
00:48:25.280 --> 00:48:30.760
York publishing big time. This is
Simon and Schuster, this is and it

602
00:48:30.800 --> 00:48:36.920
was a New York Times bestseller.
For fourteen weeks. That means every single

603
00:48:37.320 --> 00:48:43.920
week, you know that they keep
records of number one to number fifteen.

604
00:48:43.960 --> 00:48:47.960
I believe they go beyond the top
ten. So this is in the nonfiction

605
00:48:49.440 --> 00:48:52.440
list. This is way before Amazon
New York Times and it went. It

606
00:48:52.480 --> 00:48:58.199
was on there for fifteen weeks,
fourteen weeks it stayed above number fifteen.

607
00:48:58.639 --> 00:49:02.679
And so that's phenomenal. And except
for Whitley Strieber, I don't know of

608
00:49:02.880 --> 00:49:07.119
too many other people who have been
you know, front page and all that,

609
00:49:07.199 --> 00:49:15.440
and so so even Corso didn't really
expect, you know, that NBC

610
00:49:15.480 --> 00:49:17.599
would be following him around in Roswell
et cetera, et cetera. And so

611
00:49:20.159 --> 00:49:25.119
in the course of that weekend in
nineteen ninety seven, we became mortal enemies

612
00:49:25.159 --> 00:49:31.280
forever with Linda Moulton How and Paula
Harris. That's that's never gone away since

613
00:49:31.320 --> 00:49:39.159
that weekend because Bill and I,
particularly you know, behind the scenes,

614
00:49:40.440 --> 00:49:45.960
set up kind of exclusive interviews with
so that Linda Moulton How could could have

615
00:49:46.039 --> 00:49:51.920
Corso on coast as she would be
the she'd be the one kind of bringing

616
00:49:52.000 --> 00:49:54.559
him to the Coast audience. It
was sort of like a favor to Linda

617
00:49:57.360 --> 00:50:04.679
art Bell wanted Corso on. Obviously
everybody wanted Corso, and we let Linda

618
00:50:04.760 --> 00:50:08.880
be the conduit and we did that. We had to do that with Corso's

619
00:50:08.880 --> 00:50:15.079
son being very angry about this.
He despised Linda Molten how because she kind

620
00:50:15.079 --> 00:50:20.960
of came in like a journalist does, with her notebooks and her tabbed dividers

621
00:50:20.960 --> 00:50:22.480
in her notebooks, and she had
a lot of questions and she had,

622
00:50:22.519 --> 00:50:25.400
you know, an agenda. She
wanted to be the one who was kind

623
00:50:25.440 --> 00:50:31.880
of interviewing Corso for Art Bell on
art Bell And I won't tell today right

624
00:50:31.920 --> 00:50:38.039
now, because already I'm in difficult
territory. I won't tell the horrible stuff

625
00:50:38.079 --> 00:50:44.639
that happened to everybody while that interview
was going on and what we all had

626
00:50:44.679 --> 00:50:47.400
to do to make that interview happen. But once Linda got the interview,

627
00:50:47.840 --> 00:50:52.760
she basically never spoke to us again. It was sort of like you don't

628
00:50:52.840 --> 00:50:55.960
exist in my book. And in
fact, she hardly spoke to us that

629
00:50:57.760 --> 00:51:01.000
weekend once we cleared the way and
set it up. So I feel very

630
00:51:01.079 --> 00:51:05.559
hurt by that, and you know, and Paula Harris was the same way.

631
00:51:05.599 --> 00:51:10.519
Paula Harris speaks Italian. Obviously Corso
is Italian, and they kind of

632
00:51:12.000 --> 00:51:16.559
they kind of hit it off because
Corso was a great old guy who missed

633
00:51:16.559 --> 00:51:21.920
his wife, who was a redhead. Paula Harris has reddish hair, and

634
00:51:22.079 --> 00:51:25.599
they just hit it off and went
toddling off and and she was able to

635
00:51:25.639 --> 00:51:30.840
take him to Italy. Uh.
Well, he has fond memories because he

636
00:51:31.000 --> 00:51:37.719
was essentially right in charge of Rome
once we liberated Rome, so he had

637
00:51:37.719 --> 00:51:42.159
a history there right right. Yeah, good friends with Maditio. Madicio and

638
00:51:42.199 --> 00:51:45.719
Paula obviously see things very well,
see the thing. Yeah, but we're

639
00:51:45.719 --> 00:51:51.039
in a we were in a huge
lawsuit that we won because they stole everything.

640
00:51:51.159 --> 00:51:54.880
They basically tried to steal everything and
and take it to uh, you

641
00:51:54.960 --> 00:51:58.719
know, publish it in Italy.
And you know, in other words,

642
00:51:59.320 --> 00:52:02.480
there are that you have to abide
by if you're in the big publishing world.

643
00:52:02.519 --> 00:52:07.480
You really can't, you know,
take somebody's copyright. It's not considered

644
00:52:07.920 --> 00:52:13.119
kosher. You just don't do that
in this in this country. And Marizio

645
00:52:13.639 --> 00:52:16.199
just said, you know, basically
I'm going to do the thing. In

646
00:52:16.239 --> 00:52:21.880
other words, he had Simon and
Schuster on as he lost. Obviously there

647
00:52:22.039 --> 00:52:24.840
was I don't think there was a
settlement, a financial settlement. But he

648
00:52:24.960 --> 00:52:28.519
was going to try to print the
book. He did, he did,

649
00:52:28.599 --> 00:52:31.000
he did, he don't Italian.
Yeah, they did, they all did.

650
00:52:31.239 --> 00:52:34.719
They took it away, they called
it something else, so forth,

651
00:52:34.760 --> 00:52:37.119
and so on and and and then
if you were to see all of course

652
00:52:37.159 --> 00:52:42.559
those original stuff, the stuff they
did publish, you'll see what a package

653
00:52:42.760 --> 00:52:45.679
or what a co writer or what
a ghostwriter, or what a writing partner

654
00:52:45.719 --> 00:52:49.719
will do, if that writing partner's
professional, And you'll see that it's a

655
00:52:49.760 --> 00:52:57.239
smooth narrative. It's at least hangs
together intellectually from the first page to the

656
00:52:57.320 --> 00:53:01.559
last page. And Corso's books that
he published or they published, wouldn't be

657
00:53:01.719 --> 00:53:05.639
like that. They'll just be a
pile of notes. You'll see the difference.

658
00:53:07.079 --> 00:53:10.239
So I've got a copy of those
original Courso notes. Oh good,

659
00:53:10.360 --> 00:53:15.559
I don't even remember how but so
yeah, yeah, that's a couple of

660
00:53:15.719 --> 00:53:21.400
questions. So uh and and I
can see. And I think that's one

661
00:53:21.400 --> 00:53:27.079
of the problems, especially with the
old timers getting extremely territorial. That's the

662
00:53:27.320 --> 00:53:32.920
other thing they do, is there
to territorial over the phenomena in general.

663
00:53:34.000 --> 00:53:37.639
And these are two things that I
decided I'm not going to do this because

664
00:53:37.880 --> 00:53:42.199
all that gives is heartache campaign and
these are things you can't control anyway.

665
00:53:42.519 --> 00:53:49.400
So whenever anything UFO comes that they
feel is really controversial or sheds a bad

666
00:53:49.519 --> 00:53:52.239
light on the UFO field, they
get all ruffled feathers and it's like,

667
00:53:52.960 --> 00:53:57.199
you can't control this field. I
mean, it is what it is.

668
00:53:57.599 --> 00:54:00.519
All you can do is cover it, share your opinion, share your research,

669
00:54:00.679 --> 00:54:04.360
but you can't control those sort of
things. So, yeah, a

670
00:54:04.400 --> 00:54:07.679
lot of people get so upset.
But you did say that there were a

671
00:54:07.679 --> 00:54:12.840
lot of inaccuracies in the book.
But why did that happen? Was it

672
00:54:12.880 --> 00:54:16.920
because Corso Corso's memory, he couldn't
remember the details. Is that what you

673
00:54:16.920 --> 00:54:20.599
were getting? I think he was
only interested in kind of one thing for

674
00:54:20.679 --> 00:54:24.760
that particular book, and that was
the technology. What he specifically had hands

675
00:54:24.800 --> 00:54:31.159
on experience with was a bunch of
stuff that he didn't understand that he was

676
00:54:31.320 --> 00:54:39.119
tasked with seeding into industry, and
he didn't care at all about the Roswell

677
00:54:39.199 --> 00:54:45.760
crash. All he knew was he
had stuff in his hands that Trudeau said,

678
00:54:45.800 --> 00:54:51.480
do something with. Now A thing
I've found out about Corso over my

679
00:54:51.639 --> 00:54:57.639
own experience of going through his stuff
is that he I think was a bit

680
00:54:57.639 --> 00:55:00.559
of an exaggerator. Was a bit
of an exaggerator. I was gonna say,

681
00:55:00.639 --> 00:55:06.639
is he he exaggerated? I think
exaggerated his own importance. I think

682
00:55:06.840 --> 00:55:14.280
this stuff probably existed, and Trudeau
probably told him to seed industry, which

683
00:55:14.320 --> 00:55:16.519
is you know. But at the
same time, I don't think Trudeau patted

684
00:55:16.599 --> 00:55:22.239
him on the head as many times
as he said, you know you,

685
00:55:22.239 --> 00:55:27.400
you know you're you're my man.
And in other words, Courso inflated.

686
00:55:27.440 --> 00:55:31.719
If it's it's his right, everybody
else is dead and and and Courso was

687
00:55:32.000 --> 00:55:39.599
in army intelligence and and that should
be a signal to everybody that what he

688
00:55:39.599 --> 00:55:47.519
helped release with this book was done
in complete. Whatever he didn't, he

689
00:55:47.559 --> 00:55:52.440
didn't break any ohs. He's not
a whistleblower. He was allowed to get

690
00:55:52.440 --> 00:55:59.679
this information out because the Pentagon fully
supported this book. Uh Strom Thurman knew

691
00:55:59.679 --> 00:56:02.599
about all this and knew about it
when the book was coming out. He

692
00:56:02.760 --> 00:56:09.440
was relatively old and senile, but
he did give a forward. He knew

693
00:56:09.440 --> 00:56:14.480
it was for UFO or this stuff. I don't I think I think the

694
00:56:14.480 --> 00:56:17.760
stuff stopped being UFO stuff so early
and it became stuff from it. It

695
00:56:17.800 --> 00:56:22.760
was not manufactured here, I think
is what they not made here? I

696
00:56:22.800 --> 00:56:27.159
think they had they had terms for
the stuff. And so so when it

697
00:56:27.199 --> 00:56:30.360
comes to let's say, not caring
about the Roswell story at all except his

698
00:56:30.440 --> 00:56:36.800
little experience with it, he said
that he the bodies kind of passed his

699
00:56:36.800 --> 00:56:44.519
his In other words, how can
I put this? For sake Kevin Randall

700
00:56:44.599 --> 00:56:50.000
and for Stanton Freeman, the Roswell
story is important. And these inaccurates,

701
00:56:50.039 --> 00:56:54.719
the inaccuracies, inaccuracies that came in
where they were a result of Bill and

702
00:56:55.159 --> 00:57:02.639
Corso and Simon Schuster's lawyers, everybody
trying to put this story together cleanly.

703
00:57:02.679 --> 00:57:07.800
And of course you're gonna make mistakes. You're gonna make mistakes about how many

704
00:57:08.079 --> 00:57:15.280
all the anyway, So, when
Corso was premiering this book in Roswell,

705
00:57:15.679 --> 00:57:19.719
people were coming up to him one
after the other, and he was comparing

706
00:57:19.719 --> 00:57:22.719
notes, and he was comparing notes
with people in ways that would shock you,

707
00:57:22.800 --> 00:57:27.719
Like he and Whitley had a lot
more to talk about than people would

708
00:57:27.719 --> 00:57:34.760
have thought. Phil Courso's son Phil
Junior, and Whitley really hit it off.

709
00:57:36.639 --> 00:57:38.960
And I think there's more to the
story that may never come out,

710
00:57:40.159 --> 00:57:44.800
because I don't know whether you've ever
kept track of whatever happened to Phil Corso

711
00:57:44.880 --> 00:57:52.159
Junior at various times, seeing this
money thing happening, seeing this potential gold

712
00:57:52.199 --> 00:57:57.400
mine, he began to look around
to see who he could sell the story

713
00:57:57.440 --> 00:58:00.719
to. Everybody everybody had the wrong
idea about how you sell a story.

714
00:58:00.760 --> 00:58:07.599
Phil Courso had had given his life
rights over to the movie company and they

715
00:58:07.079 --> 00:58:10.119
guard those with the passion, and
Phil sort of thought, well, I

716
00:58:10.119 --> 00:58:13.719
don't care. I don't want them
to have it anymore. I'm going to

717
00:58:13.800 --> 00:58:16.280
give my life story rights to John
Alexander. I'm going to give my life

718
00:58:16.280 --> 00:58:22.039
story rights to Steven Segal. And
he did. He did all these things.

719
00:58:22.119 --> 00:58:25.639
And so you know, my husband
Bill uh eventually became a lawyer,

720
00:58:28.000 --> 00:58:30.400
an attorney. He's a he's got
a he's got the degree, but not

721
00:58:30.559 --> 00:58:35.559
the I didn't didn't do the bar
or he didn't do the bar in California.

722
00:58:36.280 --> 00:58:37.760
And so when he takes the bar, then he's an attorney, I

723
00:58:37.840 --> 00:58:44.119
think, but he's I don't know
how it goes. But so so there

724
00:58:44.280 --> 00:58:46.800
was there was. If this book
had not been made any money, if

725
00:58:46.800 --> 00:58:50.920
it hadn't sold many copies, none
of this would have happened. Nobody would

726
00:58:50.960 --> 00:58:53.639
have cared, nobody would have bothered
little for Phil course, so there wouldn't

727
00:58:53.639 --> 00:58:57.960
have been any art bill show and
stuff, and so you know, that's

728
00:58:57.960 --> 00:59:06.000
what it is. But these the
so lifetime enemies. One could say,

729
00:59:06.119 --> 00:59:09.320
yeah, so anyway, so well
hopefully, I mean, I think that

730
00:59:09.400 --> 00:59:14.679
people have loosened up a bit,
uh in that if they disagree, they

731
00:59:14.719 --> 00:59:20.119
still become like I think of like
you know, Ruben Uriarte with the Mexico

732
00:59:20.440 --> 00:59:23.880
Roswell, who I don't think Stanton
really cares for the story, and I

733
00:59:23.920 --> 00:59:29.559
know Kevin Randall, you know,
despises it, but they're still friends.

734
00:59:29.599 --> 00:59:32.880
So at least I think that that
people have loosened up, especially over the

735
00:59:32.960 --> 00:59:37.320
years. Yeah, I agree.
You see each other at conferences all year

736
00:59:37.360 --> 00:59:39.400
long. It's like you got to
start interacting, and they're all good people.

737
00:59:39.519 --> 00:59:42.559
So it comes down where I was, you know, I was gonna

738
00:59:42.599 --> 00:59:47.000
I was gonna add that because if
let's say Kevin Randall or Stanton Freeman believes

739
00:59:47.039 --> 00:59:52.119
that you're doing your research and maybe
you're getting blinded by your research. But

740
00:59:52.159 --> 00:59:57.880
you really are honest and true and
you're really trying. Then of course everybody

741
00:59:57.960 --> 01:00:01.079
can agree to disagree or this or
that. But if if you're coming into

742
01:00:01.119 --> 01:00:06.719
this field as an out and out
scam artist, well then and that's of

743
01:00:06.760 --> 01:00:09.599
course they thought was going on with
the Corso story. But over the years

744
01:00:09.599 --> 01:00:14.920
they I think understand that Bill is
not a scam artist. He tried very

745
01:00:14.920 --> 01:00:17.239
hard to get it accurate. He
never had a chance to do a revised

746
01:00:17.360 --> 01:00:23.840
edition. I'm telling you that that
whole Corso UH circus went off with other

747
01:00:23.880 --> 01:00:31.519
people pretty early in UH and each
person you know so so so at Core

748
01:00:31.639 --> 01:00:36.719
I think it's an important story,
and at Core I thought it is always

749
01:00:37.239 --> 01:00:40.760
Rubens, how did you all meet
Corso? So? How did you get

750
01:00:40.760 --> 01:00:45.159
this story? Because I mean,
the way from an outsider, my perspective

751
01:00:45.280 --> 01:00:50.639
is Bill got there first. For
whatever reason at all, he became Yeah,

752
01:00:50.719 --> 01:00:52.840
he became friends with Corso, and
Corso decided to let him do it.

753
01:00:52.960 --> 01:00:58.719
No all is fair, that's that's
but I mean my point was I

754
01:00:58.719 --> 01:01:01.360
didn't believe it in a can or
anything. Bill was the one who got

755
01:01:01.480 --> 01:01:07.320
to do the story, so so
be it. And it looked like at

756
01:01:07.440 --> 01:01:12.199
least to me seeing interviews, it
was the book was as accurate as it

757
01:01:12.239 --> 01:01:15.880
could be, and I didn't see
any other because of course there's speculation of

758
01:01:15.920 --> 01:01:20.639
oh, Bill was the guy in
there trying to cover up for the government

759
01:01:20.719 --> 01:01:23.679
and change things and lord and keep
the real story from coming out, which

760
01:01:23.679 --> 01:01:28.519
I think is kind of silly,
But well, what would be the real

761
01:01:28.519 --> 01:01:32.559
story? Do you think? Well, that's the whole problem with the theory

762
01:01:32.840 --> 01:01:38.760
is it doesn't make any sense because
you still have this man with an incredible

763
01:01:38.880 --> 01:01:45.800
background coming out and saying these extraordinary
things, and that's really what you have

764
01:01:45.840 --> 01:01:49.679
to contend with. And I think
it was, Well, all of those

765
01:01:49.679 --> 01:01:53.760
things that I questioned about Corso,
I'm just gonna blame those on Bill Burns.

766
01:01:53.800 --> 01:01:55.920
I think a lot of that story. I love that. I love

767
01:01:55.960 --> 01:02:00.639
that. That's that's easy. And
here's the cool thing. Bill came into

768
01:02:00.679 --> 01:02:07.159
this, not again, nothing to
do with UFOs. Corso has multiple stories

769
01:02:07.719 --> 01:02:12.639
and at least three important stories.
But one of them, i'd say,

770
01:02:13.920 --> 01:02:21.480
yeah, yeah, one of them
is pretty pow prisoners of War. And

771
01:02:21.519 --> 01:02:25.360
that's how Bill got involved. Because
before the Corso book, Bill had Bill

772
01:02:25.400 --> 01:02:29.559
has been a co writer with lots
of different people, and one of the

773
01:02:30.039 --> 01:02:34.360
and and in every other case,
well not every other case, but in

774
01:02:34.440 --> 01:02:37.400
many of the cases he has become
lifetime friends with the people he co writes

775
01:02:37.440 --> 01:02:42.920
books with. Bill's the kind of
person that most of the people from our

776
01:02:43.000 --> 01:02:45.880
business have been friends with us for
thirty or so years. Now ye're in

777
01:02:46.119 --> 01:02:50.280
year out. We do more books, we do this. And one of

778
01:02:50.320 --> 01:02:54.719
that situation is a fellow named Jim
Sanders, James Sanders, and James Sanders

779
01:02:55.320 --> 01:03:00.840
got himself yanked into the TWA eight
hundred, the shooting down of t w

780
01:03:01.000 --> 01:03:07.320
A eight hundred. He got yanked
into that story because his wife was as

781
01:03:07.360 --> 01:03:12.199
a stewardess or a flight attendant.
She was actually a trainer of flight attendants.

782
01:03:12.559 --> 01:03:16.280
And when the thing went down,
one of her pals got to her

783
01:03:16.760 --> 01:03:22.599
this little sample from the back seats
that proved that a missile went through the

784
01:03:22.599 --> 01:03:25.920
plane. It left a missile trail
of missile debriy. And so she ended

785
01:03:27.000 --> 01:03:31.960
up with this. In other words, his wife, you know, had

786
01:03:32.000 --> 01:03:36.760
evidence, so forth, and so
on and so so Bill wrote that book

787
01:03:36.800 --> 01:03:42.519
with Jim Sanders, the Shooting Down
the Flight eight hundred book. And but

788
01:03:42.639 --> 01:03:49.000
Sanders True Love, among other things, was the Pow story. And that's

789
01:03:49.000 --> 01:03:52.360
how Courso came into our lives because
they were all doing this movie company was

790
01:03:52.400 --> 01:03:58.440
doing they they had the movie company
had bought Jim Sanders information, you know,

791
01:03:58.480 --> 01:04:01.320
they were going to do something with
him. And they had Phil Corso's

792
01:04:01.360 --> 01:04:08.239
life rights because Phil Corso was one
of the important whistleblowers that telling the world

793
01:04:08.599 --> 01:04:15.360
that we consistently left prisoners of war
behind. Sometimes we use them as Manchurian

794
01:04:15.840 --> 01:04:20.119
exchange types. You know, it's
a it's a it's a nasty part of

795
01:04:20.159 --> 01:04:24.519
our history, but it's a true
part of our history. And Courso testified

796
01:04:24.760 --> 01:04:28.159
to this, et cetera. So
Bill was writing that book, the book

797
01:04:28.159 --> 01:04:31.639
with Corso about the prisoners of war
and stuff, and Corso mentioned this is

798
01:04:31.719 --> 01:04:36.119
ninety six, ninety five, ninety
six. Corso mentioned to Bill when they

799
01:04:36.159 --> 01:04:42.920
were they were doing all the interviews
for the Pow stuff. Ah, yeah,

800
01:04:42.960 --> 01:04:46.199
and I and I took care of
all that junk from Roswell. Yeah.

801
01:04:46.199 --> 01:04:50.119
And it was like, what you
know, and I'm born in ninety

802
01:04:50.119 --> 01:04:57.639
four, ninety seven and I'm you
know, so Roswell forty seven is it's

803
01:04:57.719 --> 01:05:02.639
part of our little household history old
stuff. So Bill knew immediately that that

804
01:05:02.800 --> 01:05:08.480
was critical and important. Wow,
so we convinced the movie company to put

805
01:05:08.480 --> 01:05:12.920
aside the Pow stuff for now and
put aside the Rome stuff. And then

806
01:05:13.039 --> 01:05:16.360
Courso also had a lot to do
with kennedy assassination. Put aside all that

807
01:05:16.400 --> 01:05:23.159
stuff. Courso was amazing character and
they're all true stories. And so therefore,

808
01:05:23.159 --> 01:05:26.119
why wouldn't the roswel story be true? I mean, why would this

809
01:05:26.280 --> 01:05:30.760
man suddenly with the Stellar. He's
a very right wing guy, always saw

810
01:05:30.800 --> 01:05:34.639
the CIA in bed with the communists. He was an FBI kind of guy.

811
01:05:34.719 --> 01:05:38.320
In spite of you know, he
loved over. Those were some of

812
01:05:38.360 --> 01:05:43.880
that fascinating parts of the book.
Yeah, when he's talking about espionage and

813
01:05:44.280 --> 01:05:47.679
the whole thing, how they all
fight each other and all this espionage against

814
01:05:47.719 --> 01:05:53.239
each other in counter intelligence against the
Navy and the Air Force, and you

815
01:05:53.280 --> 01:05:56.079
can't trust the CIA if they get
it, you know, the Soulvias have

816
01:05:56.199 --> 01:05:59.480
it so and you see it now, you see it's all kind of each

817
01:06:00.079 --> 01:06:02.960
each and and then when they did
Homeland Security to kind of bring all this

818
01:06:03.039 --> 01:06:09.320
together, they just basically made another
silo and they're all going to be shooting

819
01:06:09.320 --> 01:06:12.400
at each other basically they're all trying
to funny secrets. Yeah, I'm a

820
01:06:12.400 --> 01:06:15.280
real news hound. And that book, you know, is one of the

821
01:06:15.280 --> 01:06:19.559
books I feel that that had some
of the best insight into how all of

822
01:06:19.599 --> 01:06:24.440
that works. Well, that's Bill's
specialty. Bill is really good at putting,

823
01:06:24.920 --> 01:06:29.039
you know. He's he he can
he can retain from his let's say,

824
01:06:29.039 --> 01:06:32.800
his PhD. He can retain medieval
history. He's medieval. His PhD

825
01:06:32.880 --> 01:06:39.440
is and linguistics and medieval medieval England. And so he can give you the

826
01:06:39.480 --> 01:06:44.639
history of law and and and tie
that to how the government is breaking the

827
01:06:44.719 --> 01:06:47.159
law. And he can tie and
so he brings that. That's what he

828
01:06:47.199 --> 01:06:51.000
brought to the book. And why
did we go off on the course,

829
01:06:51.039 --> 01:06:54.760
so say, but anyway, so
why of course a lie about one little

830
01:06:54.800 --> 01:06:59.239
thing that meant nothing to him?
The POWs meant a lot to him,

831
01:06:59.599 --> 01:07:02.360
and so did the Kennedy assassination mean
a lot to him? And this and

832
01:07:02.400 --> 01:07:06.840
then of course, as you all
know, we all we thought there was

833
01:07:06.880 --> 01:07:11.519
going to be no end of the
lawsuits coming from industry, but there were

834
01:07:11.559 --> 01:07:14.119
never. There was never a peep. It's just sort of like, yeah,

835
01:07:14.199 --> 01:07:16.159
okay, now the world knows how
some of the stuff happened. And

836
01:07:16.199 --> 01:07:19.920
I to this day I wish I
knew for sure if it was, if

837
01:07:19.960 --> 01:07:25.239
it's true, because I'm not still
I'm still not convinced. I'm going to

838
01:07:25.320 --> 01:07:30.079
be more skeptical than everybody else probably, but you know, oh, so

839
01:07:30.159 --> 01:07:33.480
you're still skeptical, unsure of Corso's
story yourself. I'm unsure of it all.

840
01:07:33.639 --> 01:07:36.480
I'm unsure of the whole UFO thing, to be honest. Know what,

841
01:07:36.639 --> 01:07:42.880
Yeah, I'm a I feel for
you because I have a hard time

842
01:07:44.360 --> 01:07:49.239
landing on any one answer on anything. Anything is so enigmatic but so terribly

843
01:07:49.280 --> 01:07:53.800
interesting. Courso is a great example
of how I feel about this field.

844
01:07:54.480 --> 01:07:59.000
Such an amazing story. Yeah,
and people will say, well, why

845
01:07:59.000 --> 01:08:00.280
would he do this? And why
do you do that? I don't know.

846
01:08:00.559 --> 01:08:03.360
Yeah, just because I can't figure
it out doesn't mean that it's all

847
01:08:03.519 --> 01:08:06.199
right. He was never writing that
book. He was writing the book.

848
01:08:06.480 --> 01:08:11.440
He was always going to going to
make himself seem important. So, yes,

849
01:08:11.480 --> 01:08:14.960
he was in Rome. Was he
the leader of Rome? Was he

850
01:08:15.119 --> 01:08:19.000
really pulling you know, swords out
of his he had he had special uh

851
01:08:19.319 --> 01:08:25.680
he you know, mafia knives or
not mafia Sicilian knives and things. Yeah,

852
01:08:25.720 --> 01:08:30.680
he's a he was a short guy
who liked to you know, puff

853
01:08:30.760 --> 01:08:34.159
himself up, but he was also
hilarious and as and I think he was

854
01:08:34.199 --> 01:08:41.520
a relatively honest person, but within
the intelligence community, like you know,

855
01:08:41.640 --> 01:08:45.960
honest to what are Yeah, he
told me once that the way that you

856
01:08:46.079 --> 01:08:49.399
become a good spy or a good
you know, citizen in the in this

857
01:08:49.479 --> 01:08:54.560
government is that when somebody tells you
something and says I don't want you to

858
01:08:54.560 --> 01:08:57.600
tell anybody, you you have a
way of listening. And I kind of

859
01:08:57.640 --> 01:09:00.239
learned this. I think you have
a way of listening and not really putting

860
01:09:00.239 --> 01:09:03.319
it in long term memories. You
kind of forget it. It's like you're

861
01:09:03.359 --> 01:09:06.720
never going to tell anybody. You've
said you're not going to tell anybody.

862
01:09:06.760 --> 01:09:12.039
And so he said, that's how
that's how it is. And so maybe

863
01:09:12.119 --> 01:09:15.279
I'm not a scatter brain. I'm
actually a great spy, yes exactly.

864
01:09:16.399 --> 01:09:23.439
Yeah, So I did want to
because know this this is all so fascinating

865
01:09:24.079 --> 01:09:28.359
that but uh, and it does
play into how you guys got into the

866
01:09:28.399 --> 01:09:31.079
field and how you came to get
UFO magazine. But just to kind of

867
01:09:31.079 --> 01:09:36.239
finish up on that, it sounds
like then, Uh so the guys who

868
01:09:38.399 --> 01:09:41.279
the gentleman who? Well, did
he buy the five of you out?

869
01:09:41.319 --> 01:09:44.960
Then did this one guy buy you
guys out and become the sole owner?

870
01:09:45.199 --> 01:09:48.079
Well? No, he always retained
the license. Oh he sold us.

871
01:09:48.319 --> 01:09:51.760
He didn't sell us the magazine for
a dollar. He sold us the license

872
01:09:51.800 --> 01:09:56.760
for a dollar, and that he
could pull anytime he wanted, and he

873
01:09:56.840 --> 01:09:59.560
did. And why did he do
that? Did he pull the license?

874
01:10:00.199 --> 01:10:03.319
Uh, because he'd gotten a dispute
with you all or because he wanted to

875
01:10:03.319 --> 01:10:06.760
sell the magazine? I think the
latter. And I also think because he's

876
01:10:06.800 --> 01:10:11.640
of a certain age, he's kind
of retiring. He loves to be in

877
01:10:11.680 --> 01:10:15.720
Europe. He's not a hidden man. People thought this was a big mystery.

878
01:10:16.840 --> 01:10:20.000
He's a successful man. His name
is Peter Kuiper and he's k u

879
01:10:20.159 --> 01:10:26.920
y p e or and like the
like the liquor. And he's a very

880
01:10:26.920 --> 01:10:29.920
successful man. And I think he
just wants to retire and wants to begin

881
01:10:30.000 --> 01:10:33.000
to divest himself of stuff. And
I just think or or and he was

882
01:10:33.039 --> 01:10:36.840
looking for a loophole. And what
happened, of course, that you know

883
01:10:36.960 --> 01:10:44.680
that gave him the loophole was digital
publishing. We just simply and also we've

884
01:10:44.680 --> 01:10:47.560
been doing this thing with no staff
and just you know, I hit a

885
01:10:47.600 --> 01:10:51.720
burnout wall after ten years of just
like, uh, I don't think but

886
01:10:51.760 --> 01:10:55.600
anyway, but now you know,
So he just pulled it. I think

887
01:10:55.640 --> 01:10:58.800
because probably he wanted to retire.
Maybe he thought he had a buyer.

888
01:10:59.359 --> 01:11:01.720
Who knows. I know he thought
he had a buyer in my boss for

889
01:11:01.800 --> 01:11:04.399
a period of time. I think, yeah he did. I think he

890
01:11:04.560 --> 01:11:08.439
just thought that for sure he would
do it. But little does he know.

891
01:11:09.239 --> 01:11:15.159
See, one of the things we
did is we went because my boss's

892
01:11:15.239 --> 01:11:17.920
company, you know, they do
advertising with big magazines, and part of

893
01:11:17.920 --> 01:11:23.399
it when it comes to advertising is
you have to sell x amount of magazines,

894
01:11:24.119 --> 01:11:26.720
so they deal with big magazine.
So we went through one of the

895
01:11:26.720 --> 01:11:30.319
big publishers, which is even more
expensive. So we're dealing with, you

896
01:11:30.359 --> 01:11:33.960
know, a big company that handles
this stuff. So my boss wanted to

897
01:11:34.000 --> 01:11:38.760
do the best of the best and
make it look beautiful and be wonderful,

898
01:11:38.800 --> 01:11:42.359
which it was, but he was
spending so much money. That's what it

899
01:11:42.720 --> 01:11:45.680
came down to. That's what happened
with Peter Kaiper and and the A and

900
01:11:45.760 --> 01:11:49.279
so and this guy you know,
then comes to John after John is losing

901
01:11:49.319 --> 01:11:53.119
money already on the magazine, say
hey, do you want to buy UFO

902
01:11:53.239 --> 01:11:56.680
Magazine? And it's like, yeah, yeah, right would buy something that

903
01:11:56.720 --> 01:12:01.159
doesn't make money, And it seemed
to parents and that UFO Magazine was struggling

904
01:12:01.159 --> 01:12:06.079
financially as well, so that was
just not going to happen. And so

905
01:12:06.640 --> 01:12:12.199
I guess UFO Magazine's dead unless he
does find a buyer. Well that's a

906
01:12:12.239 --> 01:12:16.239
good question. Well, we're not
a lass. He got a little bit

907
01:12:16.439 --> 01:12:20.760
like mister Potter in It's a Wonderful
Life. At the end he was sort

908
01:12:20.760 --> 01:12:25.840
of like, you can't associate yourself
with it anymore or used ufon and Bill

909
01:12:25.880 --> 01:12:29.079
was saying, hello, it's in
our history. You can't like erase our

910
01:12:29.159 --> 01:12:31.640
history. We did, in fact
work for it. I think. Well,

911
01:12:31.640 --> 01:12:35.239
and when people think UFO Magazine,
they think the burns. That's nice,

912
01:12:35.359 --> 01:12:40.159
that's it doesn't make the Effors happy. But but well that was a

913
01:12:40.159 --> 01:12:43.319
long time ago. So yeah,
but you know, memory don't last that

914
01:12:43.399 --> 01:12:46.279
long. I know, I know
I'll be I'll be watching that very same

915
01:12:46.319 --> 01:12:53.680
thing happen. But the the so
in my mind, and I'm sure you

916
01:12:53.760 --> 01:12:58.000
probably well, you tell me this, you guys. How many issues did

917
01:12:58.000 --> 01:13:01.720
you put out? Okay? And
that was? Were they monthly or bi

918
01:13:01.800 --> 01:13:04.960
monthly? Bi monthly? Yeah,
because as you said, it's a lot

919
01:13:04.960 --> 01:13:08.920
of work. And we, right, we put the first one together.

920
01:13:08.960 --> 01:13:11.560
We were like, there's no way
we can put all this together in a

921
01:13:11.600 --> 01:13:14.279
month, right? And how many
pages was it? Is? It?

922
01:13:15.399 --> 01:13:21.760
Ours was typically I think around one
hundred No, pretty long, I mean

923
01:13:21.760 --> 01:13:27.279
it was like around because we did
eighty pages every time. Yeah, we

924
01:13:27.279 --> 01:13:30.680
were we were around eighty ninety I
think, yeah, yeah, And what

925
01:13:30.840 --> 01:13:35.760
happened? Yeah? And and when
when when we shortened it to seventy something?

926
01:13:36.840 --> 01:13:40.960
See, that's the thing. When
when we inherited it in ninety seven,

927
01:13:41.359 --> 01:13:46.159
it had had its run for several
years, very glossy and you know,

928
01:13:46.279 --> 01:13:49.920
heavily, you know, all all
color and one of them when we

929
01:13:49.960 --> 01:13:57.000
took it over and we never changed
this. We we we made half black

930
01:13:57.039 --> 01:14:01.800
and white, half color, really
cheap paper. Uh. And just because

931
01:14:01.920 --> 01:14:05.560
I thought, and I still think, that people cared about the content,

932
01:14:05.600 --> 01:14:09.520
they didn't care about I mean,
how beautiful a picture are you going to

933
01:14:09.600 --> 01:14:14.479
put of a cattle mutilation? You
know, it's pretty icky stuff? Or

934
01:14:15.079 --> 01:14:18.000
every time, you know, every
time we get these. I'm sure you

935
01:14:18.039 --> 01:14:20.720
do the same thing every time you
open up your email and there's a there's

936
01:14:20.720 --> 01:14:26.239
an image and it's some kind of
a blob of light and the poor person

937
01:14:26.319 --> 01:14:29.600
taking it says, you know,
you have no idea what I really saw.

938
01:14:30.000 --> 01:14:32.079
Well, it made it hard,
yeah, because we you know,

939
01:14:32.199 --> 01:14:36.359
wanted it to be beautiful as well, and our graphic designer really pushed us,

940
01:14:36.399 --> 01:14:42.199
so it was it was just as
difficult getting the content is getting together

941
01:14:42.600 --> 01:14:45.760
you know, the graphics too,
right right, make it that way.

942
01:14:45.840 --> 01:14:49.319
So it's another aspect that's very difficult. Are you you know? Are you?

943
01:14:51.199 --> 01:14:55.119
How can I put this? The
future? What is? What?

944
01:14:55.159 --> 01:14:59.840
Are? I wonder what I'm going
to do? And I wonder what the

945
01:15:00.520 --> 01:15:05.479
well A radio has has blossomed on
the internet. We're on radio right now,

946
01:15:05.520 --> 01:15:10.439
we're talking and people will then go
to internet sites and stuff. But

947
01:15:10.920 --> 01:15:14.800
there your site, I think,
has a has a whole new life of

948
01:15:14.800 --> 01:15:18.560
its own, doesn't it In terms
of the news is still there right yeah?

949
01:15:18.600 --> 01:15:25.119
And I think that's what's really sustaining
us is that, Uh, there

950
01:15:25.199 --> 01:15:29.880
really isn't a UFO news hub out
there. There isn't yet, But you

951
01:15:29.960 --> 01:15:32.079
should be it, don't you think? Well, and we are so,

952
01:15:32.640 --> 01:15:35.760
I mean right now, I think
we definitely are. I mean some people

953
01:15:35.840 --> 01:15:40.880
have been starting to call us,
you know, almost like mainstream media,

954
01:15:40.960 --> 01:15:45.119
which is it is nice because we
do interact a lot with mainstream media more

955
01:15:45.119 --> 01:15:48.960
and more, which is also nice. But so that's great. I really

956
01:15:49.000 --> 01:15:53.960
appreciate that. And like you know, I'm mister Pollyanna, you know,

957
01:15:54.039 --> 01:15:59.079
I love everybody and Stephan. You
have like UFO digests out there and everything,

958
01:15:59.119 --> 01:16:01.880
which is great, but they do
a lot of opinion pieces and a

959
01:16:01.880 --> 01:16:08.239
lot of other stuff, which is
good. You know, I think that's

960
01:16:08.279 --> 01:16:11.880
great. People should definitely check them
out. They may be somewhat similar to

961
01:16:11.920 --> 01:16:14.680
as UFO Chronicles, who we work
with quite a bit, because he,

962
01:16:15.119 --> 01:16:19.000
you know, does a kind of
an aggregate of news out there. But

963
01:16:19.479 --> 01:16:24.079
you know, we every day are
focused on all the news going on.

964
01:16:24.479 --> 01:16:27.840
And really that's what you know you
had asked me about burnout when I was

965
01:16:27.840 --> 01:16:31.119
on your show. That's what I
can't pull myself away from because even with

966
01:16:31.359 --> 01:16:35.520
mouf on, John Schushler was the
one who used to send out emails and

967
01:16:35.600 --> 01:16:40.319
information about UFO stories and got me
into it. And once he stopped.

968
01:16:40.720 --> 01:16:45.840
I picked that up and I couldn't
stop. So I've been doing that ever

969
01:16:45.880 --> 01:16:49.399
since. Then. I started up
my own web page and podcast, UFO

970
01:16:49.520 --> 01:16:55.840
Think Tank, and really that all
evolved into Open Minds to where we do

971
01:16:55.960 --> 01:16:59.039
that now every day, where we
post all of the stories that are out

972
01:16:59.039 --> 01:17:03.079
there and then write about some of
them ourselves. And even when I got

973
01:17:03.119 --> 01:17:06.680
my own burnout a couple of years
ago, I even left Open Minds for

974
01:17:08.079 --> 01:17:12.119
nine month period or something like that. Yeah, I couldn't stop. I

975
01:17:12.239 --> 01:17:15.039
was still. That's exactly. That's
that's that I'm glad to hear this,

976
01:17:15.079 --> 01:17:19.760
because yeah, it's like breathing.
I created a website called UFO Daily News,

977
01:17:20.439 --> 01:17:27.319
and I still kept posting news on
there because it's like, I don't

978
01:17:27.359 --> 01:17:30.560
know, I watched the news and
I can't help but want to share it

979
01:17:30.600 --> 01:17:34.560
with people. Yeah, me too. When I see the whole out there,

980
01:17:34.600 --> 01:17:38.439
I'm like, you know, there's
people need this news and information.

981
01:17:39.000 --> 01:17:43.159
And there are some other news outlets
out there here and there, but they

982
01:17:43.199 --> 01:17:45.800
get so clicky and they're not inclusive, and then it's like, oh,

983
01:17:45.880 --> 01:17:49.199
we're just going to share it with
our friends and researcher. It's worse there's

984
01:17:49.319 --> 01:17:54.079
number one. Number one. You
and I probably appreciate more than most that

985
01:17:54.199 --> 01:18:00.319
this field has a very distinct history
that shouldn't be lost in time. Just

986
01:18:00.319 --> 01:18:04.239
just what how how you were curious
about the history of Upho Magazine and one

987
01:18:04.239 --> 01:18:08.359
thing leads to another. It's also
the history of the UFO field. And

988
01:18:09.000 --> 01:18:13.479
you know, the you know,
like Terence McKenna is in the pages,

989
01:18:13.560 --> 01:18:19.560
the old pages of Upho magazine crop
circles that that phenomenon sort of started again.

990
01:18:19.840 --> 01:18:25.000
Uph Magazine started in eighty six,
and Vickie was careful to to include

991
01:18:25.000 --> 01:18:30.560
everything. She included new age stuff, she included conspiracy stuff. And when

992
01:18:30.840 --> 01:18:36.600
Don came into the picture, he
was a he was a former uh uh,

993
01:18:38.119 --> 01:18:43.039
let's say, uh, you know
he was he was he was more

994
01:18:43.039 --> 01:18:46.119
interested in nuts and bolts, and
so the magazine kind of, you know,

995
01:18:46.640 --> 01:18:50.399
thank god, stayed in that arena. But they did, in fact

996
01:18:50.439 --> 01:18:54.600
cut off like a like a disease
limb. They cut off everything to do

997
01:18:54.680 --> 01:18:59.000
with spirituality and all that stuff that
was too woo woo. But then but

998
01:18:59.039 --> 01:19:02.439
then alien of deduction kind of began
to become a thing. During those years,

999
01:19:02.439 --> 01:19:06.520
Whitley Streeber and and babies being taken
away from women, you know,

1000
01:19:06.600 --> 01:19:12.399
in the in the night, you
know, fetuses and stuff. So you

1001
01:19:12.439 --> 01:19:15.640
know, so there's this weird history
about this. It's a it's a hit.

1002
01:19:15.840 --> 01:19:19.439
Oh and then the biggest thing I'm
proud of is Colin Bennett. I

1003
01:19:19.479 --> 01:19:24.720
love Colin Bennett. He's a great
thinker, and he ties all this stuff

1004
01:19:24.760 --> 01:19:28.560
together. This is part of our
mythology, our American mythology at this point.

1005
01:19:29.199 --> 01:19:33.840
And and so when you talk about
some some sites are clicks. Some

1006
01:19:33.920 --> 01:19:41.399
sites only specialize in hybrid interactions,
and some sites only do nuts and bolts,

1007
01:19:41.399 --> 01:19:45.279
And so it's a I can't stay
away from it either. That's what's

1008
01:19:45.880 --> 01:19:51.279
fascinating about the whole thing. And
I yeah, but the thing is you

1009
01:19:51.359 --> 01:19:57.520
at least joined moufon and did this
with an Well, I joined the magazine,

1010
01:19:57.560 --> 01:20:00.640
so my eyes were open. But
but for me, I'm I'm kind

1011
01:20:00.680 --> 01:20:06.359
of aware of how much I've lost
in terms of how many kooties have gotten

1012
01:20:06.399 --> 01:20:12.520
stuck on me now and how I
can't go back to mainstream. I don't

1013
01:20:12.560 --> 01:20:17.760
think just like Bill does not get
he thinks he doesn't get the right response

1014
01:20:17.800 --> 01:20:21.119
for some of his nonfiction books that
are not in this field. At all

1015
01:20:21.199 --> 01:20:28.119
because of UFO stuff. So it's
but I think we are going to be

1016
01:20:28.439 --> 01:20:30.720
You're going to be the one probably
to break into the mainstream. I really

1017
01:20:30.720 --> 01:20:33.720
think so. And that's what I
wanted to ask you. Because it's called

1018
01:20:33.720 --> 01:20:39.079
open minds. Do you feel an
obligation to keep your mind open and to

1019
01:20:39.119 --> 01:20:44.920
look at everything? Well? And
you know, you know who challenges us

1020
01:20:44.960 --> 01:20:50.520
on this is Mike Clellan and he
wrote a story and he did an excellent

1021
01:20:50.640 --> 01:20:58.279
job with his story. I think
about abduction and how his feeling and he

1022
01:20:58.399 --> 01:21:02.039
showed how there are abduction researchers who
feel lots of people who see UFOs have

1023
01:21:02.079 --> 01:21:05.520
also been abducted, they just don't
know. It pretty out there story,

1024
01:21:05.840 --> 01:21:09.359
but it's a it's a valid story, like you said, you know,

1025
01:21:09.399 --> 01:21:13.920
it's part of the mythology. It's
worth writing about and sharing with people.

1026
01:21:14.399 --> 01:21:17.359
And I love the story because he
went and did interviews. He got interviews

1027
01:21:17.399 --> 01:21:21.359
from all of the leading abduction researchers
and you know, so it's a very

1028
01:21:21.479 --> 01:21:27.840
journalistically done, great story. And
he came to us and how this came

1029
01:21:27.880 --> 01:21:30.920
about is he's like, you guys
don't cover enough of this sort of stuff.

1030
01:21:30.560 --> 01:21:33.920
And we told him well, it
just doesn't come across our desk that

1031
01:21:34.119 --> 01:21:40.119
much. You know. It's not
that we're against it. And maybe our

1032
01:21:40.159 --> 01:21:44.800
bias, you know, keeps us
from writing that stuff, and but we're

1033
01:21:44.800 --> 01:21:48.479
not against it, and it's not
a conscious thing we're doing. And if

1034
01:21:48.479 --> 01:21:53.239
you wanted to write something about that, we would love to review it and

1035
01:21:53.319 --> 01:21:58.239
guide you and print that. So
he called us on that, and I'm

1036
01:21:58.239 --> 01:22:00.119
glad he did, and he wrote
a story and we and I think he

1037
01:22:00.199 --> 01:22:04.960
did a great job. So yeah, sometimes people do question we are open

1038
01:22:05.000 --> 01:22:09.359
minded. Do a lot of people
say, well, you debunked too much?

1039
01:22:09.439 --> 01:22:14.880
Well, you know what you're looking
for answers number one, blind faith

1040
01:22:15.159 --> 01:22:17.560
exactly, that's number one. That's
your number one mandate, I think,

1041
01:22:17.920 --> 01:22:23.239
is to debunk if it's if it's
possible, because it's the stuff you can't

1042
01:22:23.279 --> 01:22:27.000
It's just like blue Book, it's
the stuff that they can't debunk that we're

1043
01:22:27.079 --> 01:22:30.640
focusing on here. We can care
less. I mean. But on the

1044
01:22:30.640 --> 01:22:35.159
other hand, we as Americans are
too quick to be told it's swamp guts

1045
01:22:35.199 --> 01:22:39.119
and then everybody walks away and says, oh yeah, thank god, we

1046
01:22:39.159 --> 01:22:43.880
all want we all want it to
be debunked. Really, because we only

1047
01:22:44.119 --> 01:22:46.600
okay, we want the ones that
are hovering over our house to be debunked.

1048
01:22:47.359 --> 01:22:50.239
Yeah, but if it's on the
other side of the world, you

1049
01:22:50.239 --> 01:22:56.239
know, maybe not maybe you know, but I mean we're just really yeah,

1050
01:22:56.399 --> 01:23:00.399
looking for answers, keeping open mind
and covering that stuff when it comes

1051
01:23:00.439 --> 01:23:04.039
around because it is interesting and it
is part of the mythology. And I

1052
01:23:04.039 --> 01:23:06.640
think that's great. And I don't
know, you can't blame its too much.

1053
01:23:06.680 --> 01:23:13.479
I mean, we have videos on
on Dan Burush and you know a

1054
01:23:13.520 --> 01:23:17.239
lot of really out there stuff that
you know, even you know, we

1055
01:23:17.279 --> 01:23:24.560
personally don't feel ash. Yeah,
we real deal. But that story haunts

1056
01:23:24.640 --> 01:23:30.800
me because I really when because because
I can't forget who, I forget who

1057
01:23:30.800 --> 01:23:35.520
brought us that story, but very
much made a big, the theatrical kind

1058
01:23:35.520 --> 01:23:42.680
of thing about it, you know. In other words, Ron Garner his

1059
01:23:42.760 --> 01:23:45.119
name is, he was. He
brought us the story, and he made

1060
01:23:45.159 --> 01:23:48.600
it very serious, and he made
us sit down and in a darkened room

1061
01:23:48.720 --> 01:23:54.399
watch Veris and stuff, and we
investigated like crazy and came up to we

1062
01:23:54.439 --> 01:23:59.199
came to our own conclusions and wrote
a cover story on it and felt that

1063
01:23:59.239 --> 01:24:04.439
it was completely hogwash and and The
reason I bring this up or talk about

1064
01:24:04.439 --> 01:24:11.760
this one is because Project Camelot drives
me crazy because they do it all.

1065
01:24:11.800 --> 01:24:15.119
They do everybody, and they give
them all the same level. There there's

1066
01:24:15.159 --> 01:24:18.920
no editorial. It's like, we're
gonna take everybody in and we're just gonna

1067
01:24:19.000 --> 01:24:25.119
let you judge. And I think
when you find out something's not true,

1068
01:24:25.159 --> 01:24:29.239
you owe it to your readers to
tell them that. Why waste people's time?

1069
01:24:29.960 --> 01:24:31.520
You know, why ask other people? I mean, if you know

1070
01:24:31.640 --> 01:24:36.399
for a fact it's not true,
if you saw the person kind of you

1071
01:24:36.439 --> 01:24:41.680
know, making stuff up as as
they're going along, that's your you know,

1072
01:24:42.159 --> 01:24:45.840
why be a reporter if you don't
report that that you know, I'm

1073
01:24:45.880 --> 01:24:47.840
not believing so anyway, So yeah, and so yeah, I agree,

1074
01:24:47.880 --> 01:24:51.439
And I mean people get you know, what we brought to the public.

1075
01:24:51.520 --> 01:24:57.439
This guy Frank I can't remember his
name right now, but it got an

1076
01:24:57.479 --> 01:25:01.800
Air Force guy, old and old
many he just kind of makes stuff up.

1077
01:25:01.920 --> 01:25:08.119
And when Antonio interviewed me, knew
this, but we posted the interview

1078
01:25:08.119 --> 01:25:12.119
and it went wild. Yeah,
people get so upset. But you know,

1079
01:25:12.159 --> 01:25:15.760
there's so many holes and changing of
the story and and well and the

1080
01:25:15.800 --> 01:25:19.359
same thing with you know, people
burish. Luckily these days, borish was

1081
01:25:19.399 --> 01:25:24.039
more popular before. But you know, one of the funny things is is

1082
01:25:24.039 --> 01:25:27.359
my boss was really into his story
and he really liked it, and he

1083
01:25:27.439 --> 01:25:30.520
treated him so nice. Oh nice. They came to the conference. I

1084
01:25:30.560 --> 01:25:35.640
remember that. I remember reading about
that because they funny. Yeah, and

1085
01:25:35.960 --> 01:25:41.800
because yeah, well this was weird
because there was his wife's name was Marcia

1086
01:25:41.840 --> 01:25:45.680
Kane, and there was another lady
named Marcia Kane who was their same name,

1087
01:25:45.720 --> 01:25:48.199
which is weird. So they came
in to check in. They said,

1088
01:25:48.239 --> 01:25:50.680
you know, it should be under
Marcia Kane. It was actually under

1089
01:25:50.800 --> 01:25:56.439
his name. They said, Marcia
Kane's already checked in. They got upset

1090
01:25:56.520 --> 01:26:00.159
and left. People saw them because
you know, our conference, we have

1091
01:26:00.239 --> 01:26:02.479
so many people. There's people all
over the place. People saw them walk

1092
01:26:02.520 --> 01:26:05.960
in to their little red car and
drive away. He writes this big thing

1093
01:26:06.000 --> 01:26:12.159
that the government had people waiting for
them in their room, and so m

1094
01:26:12.239 --> 01:26:16.760
J twelve whisked them away in a
black helicopter. Ah, yeah, well

1095
01:26:16.760 --> 01:26:21.319
that's the see, that's the thing. It's it's yeah, I lost my

1096
01:26:21.319 --> 01:26:25.680
train to flow. Because that's shocking, really, isn't it? Funny?

1097
01:26:25.960 --> 01:26:28.479
Yeah? Well, the thing is, yeah, I can't think I was

1098
01:26:28.520 --> 01:26:30.399
gonna say I was going to add
something to that, but but you're sorry.

1099
01:26:30.479 --> 01:26:36.520
Yeah, but yeah, anyways,
Yeah, that's interesting. But that's

1100
01:26:36.560 --> 01:26:44.479
a demonstration of well I guess something. Yeah, yeah, when you know

1101
01:26:44.560 --> 01:26:46.720
something, and we certainly share that. We share when we know stuff and

1102
01:26:46.800 --> 01:26:51.079
sometimes people don't like it, or
I always share when Michael Horn tries to

1103
01:26:51.279 --> 01:27:00.199
kind of be completely fraud false and
his claims, and well, well that's

1104
01:27:00.359 --> 01:27:02.479
and then of course what you're going
to run into or get mad and blow

1105
01:27:02.520 --> 01:27:05.359
it off. And it's like,
oh yeah, a lot of these people

1106
01:27:05.399 --> 01:27:11.800
that we're mentioning, they are themselves
little economic empires, you know. They

1107
01:27:12.680 --> 01:27:15.960
they bring in the they well you
know, they bring in they fill the

1108
01:27:15.960 --> 01:27:23.560
auditorium and oh but what yeah and
the controversy. Yeah, so anyway,

1109
01:27:24.800 --> 01:27:30.159
this brings them in the spotlight.
So I guess before I let you go,

1110
01:27:30.720 --> 01:27:32.800
now that we're on this topic,
and I know because we've been talking

1111
01:27:32.800 --> 01:27:35.960
for a long time and we could
probably go on forever, But like you

1112
01:27:36.000 --> 01:27:41.199
said, you'd like to share the
truth with Who are the Charlatans out there?

1113
01:27:41.640 --> 01:27:45.720
Is there are there any some that
really catch your eye that where you're

1114
01:27:45.760 --> 01:27:49.319
like, everybody needs to know that
this person or that person is. I

1115
01:27:49.359 --> 01:27:56.720
want to give you the a chance
to say warn my audience on who to

1116
01:27:56.800 --> 01:28:00.800
stay away from. So I'm in
trouble with like an additional group of people.

1117
01:28:02.640 --> 01:28:04.479
If you want, you don't have
to, if you don't want to,

1118
01:28:05.600 --> 01:28:10.359
if you would like to, there
are so many more I don't want.

1119
01:28:10.479 --> 01:28:15.840
Well, here's the thing. Each
of these entities, they have economic

1120
01:28:15.000 --> 01:28:18.399
reasons to keep on making their story
bigger and bigger. And you know,

1121
01:28:18.640 --> 01:28:21.680
you know that sometimes somebody will come
to you with a really good story and

1122
01:28:21.720 --> 01:28:26.600
it's real and it's true, and
then they become famous and then they have

1123
01:28:26.640 --> 01:28:30.359
to keep making that story bigger and
better and then you know, so there's

1124
01:28:30.399 --> 01:28:32.560
a lot of that. That's a
really big problem. What you just said

1125
01:28:32.600 --> 01:28:38.520
too. I think people would be
shocked to find out how much that really

1126
01:28:38.600 --> 01:28:42.359
happens. And it's so sad.
Yeah, well what else can they do?

1127
01:28:42.600 --> 01:28:44.640
You know? I mean, if
you if you're only one story,

1128
01:28:45.159 --> 01:28:49.640
you have to make it worse and
worse and worse and bigger and so forth

1129
01:28:49.680 --> 01:28:53.279
and so on, because you're going
to ask for donations and then you're going

1130
01:28:53.359 --> 01:28:57.199
to ask for more donations and well, maybe you'll agree, but I think

1131
01:28:57.239 --> 01:29:00.840
Travis Walton is an example of someone
who doesn't blow up or create more stories,

1132
01:29:01.439 --> 01:29:06.840
and he does well with you know
ther that's true. That's true,

1133
01:29:06.880 --> 01:29:12.960
and and it's a profoundly life changing
thing that he could say, oh,

1134
01:29:13.199 --> 01:29:15.640
you know what, the aliens came
back. I saw him. Yeah.

1135
01:29:15.680 --> 01:29:19.920
Last Well, on the other hand, have you talked well, he's he

1136
01:29:20.119 --> 01:29:25.920
is ripe with additional information. Let's
just put it that way. More things

1137
01:29:25.960 --> 01:29:29.199
seem to be happening to him,
and I think there's a there's a deeper

1138
01:29:29.319 --> 01:29:31.720
well there than he has even lit
on. And I think, you know,

1139
01:29:31.880 --> 01:29:38.680
I think there's many more interviews with
Travis. I'm kind of we have

1140
01:29:38.720 --> 01:29:43.760
future theaters, so we still keep
our hand in. But because it's future

1141
01:29:43.800 --> 01:29:47.760
theater, and like Open Minds,
it's not UFO magazine, we can go

1142
01:29:47.800 --> 01:29:51.800
to other things a little bit.
We have an audience that gets really mad

1143
01:29:51.840 --> 01:29:59.720
if we stay too far away from
UFOs. But we're right now exploring spiritual

1144
01:29:59.760 --> 01:30:05.359
thing a bit. And I have
to say, someone gave sent a link

1145
01:30:08.000 --> 01:30:12.760
last night to a movie that I've
thoroughly enjoyed, and it's all about channeling

1146
01:30:13.520 --> 01:30:19.640
and I've always liked channeling the least
of all the things in the field.

1147
01:30:20.039 --> 01:30:24.039
I have felt that so many people
come in and they just kind of put

1148
01:30:24.079 --> 01:30:28.000
on a funny voice. Why the
funny voice, and they've just you know,

1149
01:30:28.760 --> 01:30:31.159
But this movie is. The minute
I saw it was about channeling,

1150
01:30:31.159 --> 01:30:33.560
I was going to turn it off, but out of respect for the person

1151
01:30:33.600 --> 01:30:38.399
who sent the link, I watched
it and I was I found it totally

1152
01:30:38.439 --> 01:30:41.720
gripping, and I think it's called
tuned in. I should give you the

1153
01:30:41.800 --> 01:30:46.960
exact thing since I watched it last
night. It's really shockingly fascinating. And

1154
01:30:46.960 --> 01:30:51.279
if you're a person who feels channeling
is kind of icky, you might want

1155
01:30:51.319 --> 01:30:56.319
to check this movie out. It
is astounding and you might stay with it.

1156
01:30:56.880 --> 01:31:00.439
And looking as we speak, I
believe it's called tune to end.

1157
01:31:00.960 --> 01:31:05.560
And in fact, let me just
kind of let me find my little pile

1158
01:31:05.640 --> 01:31:13.159
of stuff here. Okay, oh
yeah, yeah yeah, digital Yeah,

1159
01:31:13.199 --> 01:31:16.600
So are you staying with it?
You're staying as editor for a bit,

1160
01:31:16.720 --> 01:31:23.119
right, yeah? Indefinitely. Really
the plans are you know, we can

1161
01:31:23.279 --> 01:31:28.439
run pretty tight and that we have
the Congress, we're looking at options,

1162
01:31:28.479 --> 01:31:32.319
possible options for twenty sixteen to grow
it. We just got, you know,

1163
01:31:32.359 --> 01:31:36.000
the Guinness World Record for the biggest
conference, so I know, I

1164
01:31:36.039 --> 01:31:40.199
know, and I believe we'd be
in the book the Guinness World Record for

1165
01:31:40.239 --> 01:31:45.399
the smallest. I believe we went
well. We sponsored the least attended smallest

1166
01:31:45.439 --> 01:31:48.239
one ever, I believe. Oh
wow, I don't know. They get

1167
01:31:48.239 --> 01:31:53.760
pretty small. No, this was
bad. Literally, at the end of

1168
01:31:53.840 --> 01:31:57.079
a showing in one of the movies, you know, there are only three

1169
01:31:57.079 --> 01:32:00.600
people left in the audience, and
two of them were billing me. You

1170
01:32:00.720 --> 01:32:03.119
know. It's this is called tuning
in. That's the name of this video.

1171
01:32:03.239 --> 01:32:05.760
And I don't have too much more
information, but if you can just

1172
01:32:05.800 --> 01:32:12.760
go on YouTube or google tuning in, you will find this, you know.

1173
01:32:12.920 --> 01:32:16.399
I And the director is David Thomas, uh so you can kind of

1174
01:32:16.399 --> 01:32:19.399
put him in there too. I
don't know. And this was from two

1175
01:32:19.439 --> 01:32:24.319
thousand and eight, so and it's
people that you've probably heard of. There

1176
01:32:24.319 --> 01:32:28.720
were these five channelers. One is
a guy who channels a thing called Bishar,

1177
01:32:29.920 --> 01:32:32.720
so forth and so on. And
I'm going I'm personally right now doing

1178
01:32:32.720 --> 01:32:36.560
my research. I'm going down each
of these people trying to find the holes

1179
01:32:36.560 --> 01:32:42.000
in their story because it's a very
compelling movie. You won't have You won't

1180
01:32:42.039 --> 01:32:45.560
be wasting your time if you watch
this, I think, so okay,

1181
01:32:45.680 --> 01:32:49.479
I'm gonna check it out. Yeah, it sounds very interesting. This was

1182
01:32:49.520 --> 01:32:56.199
not so bad, Alejandro. I
told you this was completely fascinating. I

1183
01:32:56.359 --> 01:32:59.920
know people are gonna love this.
They're gonna hate it. They're gonna know,

1184
01:33:00.119 --> 01:33:03.279
they're gonna you're crazy. They're gonna
love I know my audience, they're

1185
01:33:03.279 --> 01:33:08.119
gonna love this. And I knew
they would. I knew you would have

1186
01:33:08.159 --> 01:33:12.640
a lot. I've been fascinated getting
the history with I know there's tons of

1187
01:33:12.640 --> 01:33:15.319
people who want to hear them because
they're asking us all the time, what

1188
01:33:15.399 --> 01:33:17.880
happened with UFO magazine? What happened? So tons of people are gonna want

1189
01:33:17.880 --> 01:33:23.079
to know this whole history. Yeah, and history with you all and Courso

1190
01:33:23.279 --> 01:33:27.199
it's it's it's very fascinating. Well, let me let me make sure I

1191
01:33:27.199 --> 01:33:30.640
say this at the end. I'm
saying this about Linda Moulton Howe and Paula

1192
01:33:30.720 --> 01:33:32.880
Harris. I don't like to I
don't really like to knock down other people

1193
01:33:32.920 --> 01:33:36.680
who are working hard. And I'm
saying both these things as a way of

1194
01:33:36.760 --> 01:33:41.279
kind of making a bridge if possible. If they were to hear such things,

1195
01:33:41.359 --> 01:33:45.039
I would like to bury the hatchet
and you know, start a new

1196
01:33:45.079 --> 01:33:47.039
I don't. I'm not doing this
to say either of those two people.

1197
01:33:48.439 --> 01:33:54.560
They've got a huge body of work, each of them. But this corso

1198
01:33:54.680 --> 01:33:57.359
thing, you know, personally has
made it so that I've never been able

1199
01:33:57.359 --> 01:33:59.960
to be friends and stuff. So
I wanted to just kind of put it

1200
01:34:00.039 --> 01:34:03.119
out there that way. I'm a
person too, I guess, but and

1201
01:34:03.199 --> 01:34:05.960
I you know, I believe you
know, Paulin and I have been able

1202
01:34:06.000 --> 01:34:11.119
to stay friends. We've at times
been very close, even though we don't

1203
01:34:11.159 --> 01:34:15.520
see eye to eye on everything.
Yeah, and uh, I know she

1204
01:34:15.520 --> 01:34:20.439
I think has more problems with that
than I do, because I don't mind.

1205
01:34:20.520 --> 01:34:25.760
But I sometimes feel like maybe she's
kind of like Alon and Drew and

1206
01:34:25.960 --> 01:34:30.600
keeps me at a distance sometimes.
But I understand what you're saying, so,

1207
01:34:30.079 --> 01:34:33.800
uh, and I think that it's
important that you said that. Yeah,

1208
01:34:33.840 --> 01:34:36.520
Well that's the thing I think this, and it's okay to disagree,

1209
01:34:36.880 --> 01:34:41.359
Yeah, but but try to support
your fellow journalists here and try to get

1210
01:34:41.399 --> 01:34:46.359
the story out and expect each other
for the exactly exactly. Try to go

1211
01:34:46.399 --> 01:34:48.760
as a group. If we go
as a group, we will become the

1212
01:34:48.800 --> 01:34:53.359
mainstream you wait and say, but
but not if we're you know. Of

1213
01:34:53.359 --> 01:34:56.720
course, of Courso said this,
he never had to worry about uh,

1214
01:34:57.119 --> 01:35:00.840
disinformation because the u ful field takes
care of that. They there on the

1215
01:35:00.840 --> 01:35:05.000
back. So he was right,
yeah, yeah, exactly nice. Yeah,

1216
01:35:05.039 --> 01:35:09.399
Well, thank you so much.
Yet, this has been wonderful.

1217
01:35:10.039 --> 01:35:13.640
I think we'll definitely need to talk
again because this has been so fun and

1218
01:35:13.680 --> 01:35:18.039
I'm sure there's more we can we
can talk about. Thank you so much

1219
01:35:18.079 --> 01:35:23.079
for coming on the show, and
I think that many many other people should

1220
01:35:23.119 --> 01:35:27.039
interview you because you have a lot
of great stuff to say. Thanks for

1221
01:35:27.079 --> 01:35:31.079
being so persistent, and I know
I'm glad I was and I knew it

1222
01:35:31.119 --> 01:35:35.279
would be great and it has been. Thank you. Thank you so much

1223
01:35:35.880 --> 01:35:41.640
for to Nancy for joining us.
I think she was a great interview.

1224
01:35:42.079 --> 01:35:45.560
She is a really cool lady.
What a history, I mean, some

1225
01:35:45.680 --> 01:35:50.399
really interesting stuff. I personally because
I'm fascinated with you know, her and

1226
01:35:50.439 --> 01:35:55.600
Burns and there work in this field. And I'm also fascinated by the history

1227
01:35:55.840 --> 01:36:00.760
of UFO magazine because it was such
a big deal in this field has for

1228
01:36:00.800 --> 01:36:04.720
so long, and so I thought
this interview was completely fascinating and she's great.

1229
01:36:04.760 --> 01:36:09.720
She's a lot of fun. So
thank you so much to Nancy for

1230
01:36:09.880 --> 01:36:15.720
joining us. You can go to
read more about her and Bill at futuretheater

1231
01:36:15.920 --> 01:36:23.039
dot com. Future theater dot com
knows funny business. Sometimes people have an

1232
01:36:23.399 --> 01:36:27.000
underscore dash or something like that.
Nothing like that, just future theater dot

1233
01:36:27.039 --> 01:36:32.760
com. This is her and Bill
Burns podcast on DarkMatter Radio. They're also

1234
01:36:32.920 --> 01:36:40.760
on the PSN Radio network, which
also broadcasts UFO Think Tank or I'm sorry,

1235
01:36:41.159 --> 01:36:46.119
Open Minds UFO Radio formerly UFO Think
Dank Radio. But so you can

1236
01:36:46.119 --> 01:36:51.239
hear both of us on the air
there at PSN. So you can go

1237
01:36:51.359 --> 01:36:57.479
listen to Nancy and Bill interview different
UFO people on their own podcasts. So

1238
01:36:57.920 --> 01:37:01.159
really cool. Thank you again to
Nancy for being on a show that was

1239
01:37:01.880 --> 01:37:06.560
awesome. Speaking of awesome, I
do want to mention for any of you

1240
01:37:06.640 --> 01:37:11.920
that live in the Sedona area,
I'm actually going to be speaking at Sidona

1241
01:37:12.000 --> 01:37:18.079
mofon on Friday, and I'm going
to be talking about official government UFO investigation

1242
01:37:18.279 --> 01:37:25.920
agencies. So these are active official
governmental organizations. I'm going to talk about

1243
01:37:25.960 --> 01:37:29.800
them and why they got started,
the details behind that, and really the

1244
01:37:29.840 --> 01:37:32.880
amazing UFO cases that got these guys
rolling. So that's going to be a

1245
01:37:32.880 --> 01:37:38.600
lot of fun. And I'm also
speaking in Phoenix move On in December,

1246
01:37:38.720 --> 01:37:42.960
so on different topics, but we'll
talk more about that later. So if

1247
01:37:43.000 --> 01:37:45.760
you can make it, that would
be a lot of fun to see you

1248
01:37:45.159 --> 01:37:51.079
all. Also, you can see
Jason, Maureen and I on a brand

1249
01:37:51.119 --> 01:37:55.760
new episode of Spacing Out that we
just launched Friday. Of course, we

1250
01:37:55.880 --> 01:38:00.880
have one up every Friday, and
I don't think I've mentioned this before we

1251
01:38:00.079 --> 01:38:04.399
but we have a Chinese UFO Files
video up too, where we talked about

1252
01:38:04.439 --> 01:38:10.439
the history of UFOs and China and
some really interesting and cool stuff when it

1253
01:38:10.479 --> 01:38:15.479
gets to the history there, including
how the Chinese government helped get eufologies started

1254
01:38:15.640 --> 01:38:21.399
in China, printed their first UFO
magazine really for a long time, and

1255
01:38:21.840 --> 01:38:30.199
also that paid to get UFO sightings
translated for Wendell Stevens to create a book

1256
01:38:30.239 --> 01:38:33.720
on Chinese UFOs. So really really
cool stuff. I think Antonio and I

1257
01:38:33.760 --> 01:38:38.039
talked about this before on a show
we did a show on it. I

1258
01:38:38.079 --> 01:38:40.960
think if not, we should have, but really cool stuff. So you'll

1259
01:38:41.000 --> 01:38:44.760
have to check that out on our
YouTube channel. Of course, these stories

1260
01:38:44.760 --> 01:38:48.000
and everything you could get to at
openminds dot tv. Again, we've got

1261
01:38:48.000 --> 01:38:53.000
the UFO Congress coming up. The
rooms have not sold out yet at the

1262
01:38:53.039 --> 01:38:57.000
host hotel, but I'm sure they're
getting really close. It's about the time

1263
01:38:57.039 --> 01:39:01.840
of year when they do and are
sub people signing up for the conference is

1264
01:39:02.520 --> 01:39:08.000
at pace with last year, which
was our biggest one ever, So we're

1265
01:39:08.039 --> 01:39:11.680
really starting to get a lot of
registrations and I'm sure that hotel's gonna fill

1266
01:39:11.760 --> 01:39:15.760
up, So go to Ufocongress dot
com to register and look up the hotel

1267
01:39:15.800 --> 01:39:19.520
and reserve yourself a room. You
can also find that information at open mindsat

1268
01:39:19.560 --> 01:39:24.439
Tv. It's gonna be an awesome
year. We're gonna have some really really

1269
01:39:24.439 --> 01:39:27.880
cool stuff this year, so it's
gonna be a lot of fun and a

1270
01:39:27.960 --> 01:39:30.279
lot of people are gonna be able
to make it that haven't been able to

1271
01:39:30.479 --> 01:39:33.840
make it before, like other podcasters
like Martin Willis, who you know,

1272
01:39:33.880 --> 01:39:39.960
I'm on his podcast every week talking
news, and also Angel Espino and I'm

1273
01:39:40.000 --> 01:39:43.960
on his too, talking news sometimes. So a lot of friends we haven't

1274
01:39:43.960 --> 01:39:45.479
met face to face or you don't
get to see often are gonna be there,

1275
01:39:45.520 --> 01:39:49.479
so it's gonna be a lot of
fun, so be sure to register

1276
01:39:49.680 --> 01:39:55.520
for that and remember past videos.
You can watch at our video portal at

1277
01:39:55.560 --> 01:39:58.760
open mindset tv. It only costs
a couple bucks and you can watch some

1278
01:39:58.880 --> 01:40:05.520
of the incredible discussions. We've got
really the first one twenty eleven videos going

1279
01:40:05.600 --> 01:40:10.920
up now, and some of the
other videos we've done, and we've got

1280
01:40:11.000 --> 01:40:14.399
new videos going up there every month. If you just want to have full

1281
01:40:14.399 --> 01:40:17.199
access too, you can subscribe for
something like five ninety nine and then you

1282
01:40:17.199 --> 01:40:21.119
have full access to all videos and
we put more up every month for you

1283
01:40:21.199 --> 01:40:26.760
there too, So check that out
the video portal at openminds dot tv.

1284
01:40:27.439 --> 01:40:30.079
All right, thank you all so
much for listening. Thanks to Caleb Hanks

1285
01:40:30.119 --> 01:40:33.640
for the opening and closed music.
You could go listen to more of his

1286
01:40:33.840 --> 01:40:39.319
music at clerk Chronicles dot com.
You'll find a link on the radio page

1287
01:40:40.000 --> 01:40:44.159
at Openminds dot tv. Thanks Gala, but let's check out some of his

1288
01:40:44.359 --> 01:40:47.119
music now. As we wrap it
up, thank you all so much for

1289
01:40:47.199 --> 01:40:51.279
joining us. We will talk to
you next week with another great show we're

1290
01:40:51.279 --> 01:40:56.920
gonna have. Travis Walton we're gonna
talk about his upcoming conference and his upcoming

1291
01:40:57.079 --> 01:41:01.359
SkyWatch at the location where he was
taken. I'll be there, Maren will

1292
01:41:01.359 --> 01:41:04.640
be there. Hopefully we will not
get taken, but if we do,

1293
01:41:04.680 --> 01:41:10.000
we're gonna have our video guy Michael
with us and we will film the entire

1294
01:41:10.119 --> 01:41:14.720
thing and put it up on YouTube. Even if we don't get taken,

1295
01:41:14.760 --> 01:41:16.439
we're gonna film this stuff and put
it up on YouTube. So either way,

1296
01:41:16.479 --> 01:41:21.560
it's gonna make a great YouTube video. So we'll talk to you all

1297
01:41:21.960 --> 01:42:21.720
next week. Audio smooth atos your
motions,