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MMHPI dot org. Well, hello,

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and welcome to the Texas Tribune trip
Cast for August eighteen, twenty twenty three.

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My name's Matthew Watkins, Managing editor
for News at the Tribune, and

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this week we're going to be talking
about the state's takeover of Houston, ID.

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When classes began at Texas's largest school
district later this month. They will

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be done under the supervision of a
school board and superintendent handpicked by the state.

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The previous board, which is elected
by the voters in the city,

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was deposed in June under the authority
of a law passed in twenty fifteen that

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mandated state takeover if a district or
one of its campuses receives failing grades from

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the TEA for five consecutive years.
In Houston, that was Phyllis Wheatley High

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School, which reached that threshold in
twenty nineteen. The new superintendent, Mike

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Miles, has already been making waves, firing multiple principles and administrators, pursuing

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whole sales, systemic changes at dozens
of campuses, and perhaps most controversially,

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repurposing some libraries into discipline centers.
Joining us to discuss this our two reporters

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for the nonprofit news site Houston Landing. We have Miranda Dunlap, a staff

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writer for The Landing who has written
more than twenty stories on this topic.

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Came Miranda there. And we have
Asher layer Small, who's the reporter for

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covering K twelve for The Landing.
Hey. Asher, Hey, Maddy,

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glad to be here. Yeah,
thanks for joining. So Miranda, I

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want to start with you. You
know, one of the more controversial aspects

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of this taker takeover is the rationale
behind it. I already mentioned Phyllis Wheatley

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the High School is a school that
has struggle academically for a long time.

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It is also one of just two
hundred and seventy six schools in a district

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that had a B rating from the
TEA when this takeover occurred. But that

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being said, the district has slipped
in the ratings in the latest scores that

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released this week. I'm wondering if
you could just sort of kind of lay

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the framework here and kind of describe
what the academic climate and situation was at

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HISD, you know, leading up
to this decision in June for the takeover.

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Yeah, I think the fact that
the district had a B rating has

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kind of been a reason why a
lot of people have opposed the takeover and

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maybe not been in support of it, because, you know, a B

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rating is an averagely good rating,
and so what we're going to see this

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year though, is that it's entirely
possible that the district falls back a little

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bit and it's a through F rating. The state is kind of like hardening

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up and raising some bars through their
accountability system that would make it a little

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bit harder for HISD to receive that
B rating. Again. We had a

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story about this, but if HID
had the same scores at their schools as

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they did last year, the essentially
the formula would result in a HI s

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C having a C rating this year. Those scores come out in September,

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and we saw just a few days
ago some star scores came out and the

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district fell back a little bit in
reading and stayed flat in math, and

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that is behind several like light districts
across the state who did a little bit

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better in growth. So that's kind
of where we're at. Don't know for

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sure, but it the way it's
looking, it's possible that the district could

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have a C rating this year.
That being said, a lot of the

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a lot of the takeover, you
know, did some from the scores at

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Wheatley High School and their consecutive failing
grades. There were some other reasons that

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went into that. Specifically, there
was a TEA investigation into the board about

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misconduct, and the investigations findings was
that there was multiple instances of misconduct and

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there is a law that if there
is a finding of misconduct within the board,

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that the Tea can appoint a board. You know, some board members

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did say that it was a biased
investigation, that those findings weren't you know,

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accurate, but regardless, there were
findings that they violated Open Meetings Act

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or you know, made false statements
to investigators during that time. Yeah,

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and there's also a third aspect that
another another provision of law is that if

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the district has a state appointed conservator
for more than two years, that the

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district that the TA can take over
the district and appoint a school board.

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Now Hie had a state appointed conservator
for six years to kind of remedy some

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district issues. So there's it's kind
of threefold essentially. Essentially Miranda's getting at

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there is that there's several state laws
that lay the legal groundwork and legal framework

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for why the state was able to
take over. There's the consecutive failing grades

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which happened at Wheatley, and I
think there are a lot of Houston residents

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who ask, like, hey,
why can the state take over this district

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of two hundred and seventy three schools
based on the rating of one school.

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So that is a state law that
went into effect in twenty fifteen, and

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then there are a couple other provisions
that also allowed the takeover to be triggered,

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and that is what has led us
to where we are today. Jumping

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on the star scores piece, so
pretty much there were star scores that came

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out this week. They said the
state standardized tests and then how those play

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into the district's accountability ratings, So
like abcd F that comes out later in

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September. But I was on a
press call with Superintendent Miles earlier this week

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and he said, you know,
we have to wait and see what's going

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to happen with the with the accountability
rating, but we're expecting to see How

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would you kind of classify the community
feeling about the state of the schools,

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you know, leading into this,
And I know there's been some pushback about

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the idea of the state's involvement here
and in the kind of extent of the

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takeover, But was there a large
contingent of a feeling that, you know,

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this this board is dysfunctional. There
were a lot of kind of public

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spats that rolled out. There was
there a feeling that schools do need to

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turn around? Or was there not
much of a clamoring for dramatic change in

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the schools leading up to this?
I can start. I think it's hard

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to say what the general consensus is
because it is so mixed. You have

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a lot of parents who who have
children at these schools that are being you

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know, immediately overhauled this year,
and a lot of them, you know,

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maintain that their schools are great schools. Some of these schools have good,

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you know, scores, But then
you have a lot of people who

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you know, have really grown tired
of really the dysfunction of the previous board

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and all of the you know,
like in fighting that was just so rampant,

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and their kind of inability to address
these longstanding issues in the district.

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So you have, you know,
some people who really are proud of their

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schools and don't understand why so much
change is you know, now falling upon

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them. But then you have,
you know, people who recognize that a

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lot of schools in the district are
not doing well and are not serving kids,

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and they want change. And you
know, maybe some of this is

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really uncomfortable to them, but they're
more trying to stay positive. It really

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is mixed. It's hard to say
what the overall feeling is. But but

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Miranda and I spend a lot of
the summer going to community events that the

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superintendent held. So twice a week
he would go to a school and kind

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of go over his vision for the
district and then have give community members a

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chance to kind of say their peace
or ask him questions. And not at

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every school, but at most schools. In most instances, the feedback was

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largely negative. There were a lot
of people who are really upset about these

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changes and feeling like they were losing
their you know, their their their voice

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in all of this, because they
did lose their democratically elected school board.

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So we went to I'm thinking of
a community meeting at an elementary school called

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p Elementary. It's a predominantly Hispanic
area where most parents are either Spanish speaking

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or bilingual, and so they used
to have a bilingual principle who was then

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replaced with a non Spanish speaking principle. The parents were really worried about that.

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They're concerned about the future of their
dual language program. Superintendent Miles said

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he would maintain in that program,
but he has made changes to allow him

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to modify Magnet programs as he sees
fit. So there are people who have

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a lot of concerns about what's to
come. I think to encapsulate it.

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A lot of parents I've spoken to
feel like they're kind of between a rock

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and a hard place because they do
acknowledge that there were changes that were needed

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in the district, and at the
same time, what they're seeing happen to

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Houston is sd are not the sort
of changes they're looking for, and they

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feel like they're boxed out of giving
their input because there's no one really to

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hold Superintendent Mike Miles accountable other than
the TEA, other than the state and

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the board. But the board was
appointed by the state. So that's that's

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what we're hearing from a lot of
parents and community members. It's just such

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a complicated issue because, of course, the way parents and community members evaluate

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their schools is not just by looking
at test scores. It's you know,

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a whole lot of different things,
including the community around the school, their

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relationship with the teachers, and the
principle and things like that. So hard

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to just look at, you know, a TEA report card and decide,

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you know, this school is doing
well or this school is not doing well.

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Let's talk a little bit about Mike
Miles here. Though I am a

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former Dallas Morning News reporter, I
was there when he was overseeing Dallas.

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I s d. He was a
very he elicited a lot of passion from

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both his supporters and his detractors,
and I it seems as though the same

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thing is going on in Houston right
now. Can can you give us a

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little bit about his background and the
approach he's taking to this to this big

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task. Sure. Yeah, I
mean I think the word that comes to

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mind for me is polarizing. So
exactly like you know, exactly how you

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said, He's a really polarizing guy. And we've spoken to even you know,

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folks at at many points in his
tenure. I spoke to someone in

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Harrison County too, or in the
first the first school district out in Colorado

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Springs where he was superintendent, and
they told me his legacy continues to be

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polarizing. There are people who won't
touch certain reforms because they're associated with Mike

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Miles, and there are others who
are still trying to carry them forward.

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Miranda did a good amount of reporting
into his most recent stop, which was

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leading a charter network called Third Future
Charter Schools. So yeah, I can

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speak to that better than I can. Yeah, you know, under so

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the the charter network that he ran, the way that the rules that were

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tied into that we're run are very
similar to how HISD schools will run.

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It's, you know, his model
of how a school should be, and

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you know, there's striking similarities.
And it was you know, once again,

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there were some mixed feelings towards certain
policies at schools, and I don't

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know, Sorry, I don't know
how specific we want to be, But

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are you asking more like general or
Yeah, let's talk a little bit about

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his methods because I think that we'll
get into what is going on here in

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Houston. I think you know,
he has, as you have written,

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has has taken on a lot of
situations where he has identified specific schools and

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kind of proposed or begun to implement
wholesale changes. He'd tell us a little

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bit about what some of those changes
are. What this is looking like at

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the ground level. Yeah, there's
a lot of changes. I guess the

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the broad picture is that there are
eighty five schools that are seeing the immediate

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changes this year, seeing a complete
overhaul. And what that looks like is,

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you know, it looks similar to
what he's done in the past,

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but it will be a very uniform
model of how a school will be run.

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And with that comes some several very
like controversial changes that you've probably heard

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about, such as the repurposing of
libraries to make quote unquote team centers or

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people call them zoom rooms, and
kind of this like very tough, no

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nonsense approach that comes out in some
policies, like you know, elementary middle

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schoolers walking single file in the hallways
or carrying a traffic cone to the bathroom,

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or you know, the jobs of
teachers and principles are being effectively re

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engineered. So teachers won't be grading
papers, teachers won't be making copies.

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Someone's gonna be doing all that for
them. They'll be using a scripted curriculum.

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It's kind of just very can't think
of the world, I want to

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say, but it's very systematic.
And so you know that that has been

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controversial. There are a lot of
people who are not excited about those changes,

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People who you know, more so
believed that school should be a very

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comforting place where a teacher brings their
unique touch and believes in more of like

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the holistic education approach. Those those
people are upset about this. Some people

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that I talked to in Odessa and
Midland who went to a school under this

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model, you know, we're specifically
concerned about the use of the team centers

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and felt like, you know,
it just gave way for students to be

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ejected from class more often and set
to a team center where their teacher wouldn't

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have to deal with them. So
there's a lot of fear and angst not

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knowing exactly what this is going to
look like, but it is. It

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is a model that has been seen
before, essentially. Yeah, and I

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wanted to give some context too,
because these sorts of changes where it's where

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the model is much more systematized,
is particularly significant in Houston because this is

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a school district that has this long
history of what's called decentralized you know,

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school government or education governance. And
what that meant was that principles really had

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wide discretion over all sorts of things
at their school, including hiring or you

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know, budgeting or adding specific programs. And at these eighty five schools that

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Mike Miles and his administration are overhauling, that's all changing. So now at

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those schools it's very centralized. It's
all the same curriculum, it's all the

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same teaching style, and so that
has that has some people worry. Then

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it also has some people who felt
like a change was needed excited that someone

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is taking account for this. And
also I will say, just to be

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fair to the to the model that
Mike Miles is implementing is the teachers at

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several of the schools that he's overhauling. I do have to make a distinction

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here because there's twenty eight schools that
he targeted and then there's another fifty seven

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that opted into the changes. At
the twenty eight that he targeted, teachers

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are going to get a really significant
bump in salary. So somewhere in the

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like eighty to nine DK on average
per per teacher will be their their annual

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salary. And his idea is,
these are the schools that have historically struggled

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the most in HISD or some of
the most. Let's attract at the very

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best teachers we can to these schools
by paying top dollar. And so that's

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what they're doing there. They're trying
to professionalize the the job of a teacher

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by taking away busy work such as
grating quizzes. And you know, we've

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heard from a lot of teachers who
still say, we don't like this.

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This isn't about the money. It's
about the fact that we can't We like

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to be able to plan our own
lessons. We don't want to have a

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curriculum that's handed to us. But
at the same time, like a raise

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is a raise, and that's the
idea behind the model. Yeah, it's

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so funny to see how much this
has played out similarly to what we saw

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in Dallas when he was doing this, because I remember those same arguments,

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you know, a really big focus
on teacher pay, which is not also

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you know, not just rewarding good
teachers in the district, but also trying

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to really incentivize people to enter the
profession enjoying the profession that may not have

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otherwise because of how much they were
paid. But you did still see a

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lot of pushback from you know,
union groups, teacher groups and things like

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that over the issues you're talking about
autonomy or even questions of fairness, right

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if there were discrepancies between you know, what were deemed the highest performing teachers

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in the in the lowest performing teachers. So I'm kind of fascinating to watch

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this all play out again. Miranda, what would you what can you say

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about the success of these programs in
the past. I mean, how did

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this work out in Midland in his
most recent stock Yeah, I mean on

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paper, it was successful, it
produced So these schools were in a similar

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situation to Hi SC where they either
you know, partner gave up control of

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these schools, surrendered it to a
charter network who could turn it around,

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or they would have faced takeover by
of the entire district, and so they

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opted to partner with Third Futures,
and you know, they went from failing

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grades too. I believe Midland and
Odesks are both be rating at this point.

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So you know that that's kind of
Superintendent Miles's entire arguments, like this

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is uncomfortable. Change is uncomfortable for
parents, teachers, students, but it's

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gotten the results for him so far. So I think that's you know,

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a lot of the reason why Marath
has put him up in this position in

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hi ST is because of those jumps
and scores. Let's plus for a minute

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00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:48,960
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stimulates creative solutions to key educational challenges throughout

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00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:56,599
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get a quote, go to t
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241
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seven seven five hundred zero one four
zero. All right, So I'm ready.

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00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:15,160
I mean, we've talked a lot
about the experience for the teachers and

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you know the reaction from the parents. I mean, what is the impact

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on the student experience here? Do
we even know the answer to that yet?

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As you know, I think that
is something that you know, we

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are committed to trying to figure out. I think a lot of you know,

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a lot of what you when you're
reporting on education, A lot of

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what you've find out about, like
what's going on inside the school does come

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from parents of young children. But
you know, talking to parents and Midland

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and Odessa, while there was you
know, that growth in those scores,

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there was you know, some parents
who said it didn't matter to them and

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that you know, their children like
lost interests in the subjects and you know,

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their favorite subjects weren't as fun for
them anymore, and to them that

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mattered a little bit more so,
it's it's a mixed bag, sure,

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a lot of complexities and all this
go ahead. Ashure, Yeah, well

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this was Miranda's story. But but
one quote that jumped out to me,

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I think was one parent said it
felt more militaristic the school, which you

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know, Superintendent Miles does have a
background in the military. He's someone who

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has a really strong vision. Some
people see that as a good thing.

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Some people see that as a bad
thing. But what's undeniable is that these

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schools are more system of ties and
more regimented. So we have seen a

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considerable backlash among politicians in the Houston
area around this. Sylvester Turner, the

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mayor, really blasting in particular,
and some local members of Congress in particular,

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the targeting the discipline centers the use
of libraries for that center, after

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how how is this plane out among
the other elected officials there. Sure.

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Yeah. So there was a little
bit of drama a few weeks ago when

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Superintendent Miles and Mayor Turner, we're
going back and forth on this library issue.

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Mayor Turner started talking about the issue
in a city council meeting, and

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then at the end of the day, Mike Miles put out a statement saying,

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Hey, Mayor Turner, we welcome
you to check out our nes schools.

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The schools were turning around the schools
that will be implementing this library.

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Paulicy, we welcome you to come
by when school starts, see what it's

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all about. And he's kind of
repeated this refrain that people don't really understand

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what's going to be happening in these
team centers, the places where misbehaving students

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can be sent to learn via zoom. And so then the next day I

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went and grab Mayor Turner at a
at a ribbon cutting event he was doing,

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and just held the microphone up,
asking like, are you going to

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take uh su the superintendent up on
his offer to come check out these these

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00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,960
team centers, these overhauled schools,
And pretty much what he said was like

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he he just went off for several
minutes. I didn't really get any other

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questions in because he clearly had a
lot to say about this, but he

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was saying, like, this is
a gimmick from the superintendent. You know,

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he just wants a photo op with
me. He could have picked up

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the phone and called me if he
wanted to, but instead he like put

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out this statement that was really here
for the press and the way the way

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the mayor sees it is the schools
that the superintendent is overhauling. These are

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predominantly low income schools, and so
now these are schools that are going to

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have their libraries repurposed. The superintendent
has said books will remain on the shelves

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and that students can check them out
under an honor system. But a lot

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of library advocates say that having a
dedicated staff member kind of building up that

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program of a library is one of
the essential parts of actually getting books in

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students' hands. So folks really feel
like this is cutting down access to reading

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in some of the schools that have
historically, you know, had lower reading

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scores for example, and less access
to more resources. The superintendent does counter

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like that he is putting a lot
of reading programs into approach. There's this

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whole science of reading push, which
is a whole other issue, And I

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can quickly just say, like,
pretty much, there were decades in which

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the US used a certain type of
reading instruction that has now been shown to

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be fairly ineffective students the incentive to
guess at words rather than learning to sound

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them out. And now Houston is
moving towards this other model called the science

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of reading. So it's a big
issue. But the library is really just

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like a piece that pulls on people's
heartstrings. Like you can picture going into

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your school library and pulling a book
off the shelf, and there's a lot

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of schools now where that will look
different. I think very broadly, when

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Also when you you know, ask
about the elected official response to this in

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Houston, I think it's very fair
to say that most elected officials in the

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city, you know, do view
this as an attack on democracy from a

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00:26:53,839 --> 00:27:00,200
republican statewide government, you know,
targeting a democratic city out seeing a democratically

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00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:07,799
elected school board, you know,
handpicked school board brought in, you do

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00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:12,680
get the sense a lot of elected
officials see this as an attempt to control

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by a republican state government. And
so that is a lot of the discourse

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as well, and I think that
is the broad sentiment from city leaders.

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Yeah, and of course this is
something that extends beyond the realm of education,

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right I mean, Harris County has
seen this with its election administration right

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now, recent laws passing, you
know, in which the state is kind

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00:27:36,039 --> 00:27:40,160
of inserting itself more in that realm. We've seen this in policing and a

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00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:44,880
lot of the different cities, bigger
cities in Texas as well, so kind

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of fitting into that broader fight.
But it's also just interesting to see,

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00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:52,359
I mean, Miles was selected to
lead d I s D by the school

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00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:59,480
board there, you know, also
a democratic controlled city, so the kind

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of complian cities there are are interesting
to watch as well, and I think

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00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:08,680
we're seeing just sort of contrasting as
as you guys have laid out contrasting kind

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00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:14,519
of theories as to how education should
work, particularly in these big city school

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00:28:14,519 --> 00:28:17,359
districts where there are a lot of
challenges. Right, A lot of the

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00:28:18,079 --> 00:28:22,279
students that you're teaching are you know, economically disadvantaged, a lot of them,

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00:28:22,319 --> 00:28:26,200
many come from immigrant communities, many
maybe aren't even speaking English as the

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first language. And you know,
this is not an easy solution for either

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00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:37,400
either method. One thing I wonder
is what y'all are watching as this plays

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00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:41,759
out in the coming months even years. I mean, how will we how

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should we judge this in terms of
whether it's a success or not. What

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00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:51,119
factors should we be looking at?
And what factors will y'all be looking at?

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Yeah, I think one thing to
know is that, you know,

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00:28:56,519 --> 00:29:02,160
in order for this state takeover to
end, no schools can have failing ratings.

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00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,279
So I think that is like for
several years. So I think that

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00:29:04,359 --> 00:29:10,000
is like the most obvious first step
is, you know, is this fixing

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00:29:10,359 --> 00:29:15,680
school ratings? And asher maybe you
want to take it away on some of

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00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,519
these other things will be looking at. Sure. Yeah, I mean that

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00:29:18,519 --> 00:29:23,720
that the no failing schools is one
of three exit criteria, and the other

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00:29:23,759 --> 00:29:30,400
two are that the the school board
politics kind of need to be under control,

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00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,400
and then the other is that the
district needs to be in compliance on

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00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:38,279
special education. So all these three
things are things that have been problems historically,

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00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,880
but you know, in a on
a on a closer time frame,

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00:29:44,319 --> 00:29:48,640
like we said, star scores came
out this week, but there are other

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00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:53,680
tests that we're watching. There's the
NWEA test, there's the Dibbles tests.

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00:29:53,960 --> 00:30:00,559
These are all nationally normed tests that
students in his d will be taking over

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00:30:00,599 --> 00:30:06,319
the coming months. So I think
that's one marker that a lot of people

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00:30:06,359 --> 00:30:11,880
are looking at. The superintendent has
celebrated that they do have fewer vacancies staff

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00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:18,319
vacancies going into this school year than
last year, so that is one important

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00:30:18,319 --> 00:30:26,839
piece where there will be more students
who have a dedicated teacher in front of

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00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,480
them at the beginning of this school
year, or there will be fewer students

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00:30:30,519 --> 00:30:36,440
that are taught by say a substitute
or a long term substitute. So that

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00:30:36,599 --> 00:30:41,240
is a win. But I think
there's all sorts of markers that families are

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00:30:41,279 --> 00:30:45,759
looking at. So when students go
back to school in August twenty eight,

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00:30:45,279 --> 00:30:52,720
there's gonna be many of them that
look really different because their staffs were switched

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00:30:52,799 --> 00:30:57,759
up, were reconstituted, maybe their
principle was replaced. At all twenty eight

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00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:03,160
schools targeted for reforms, all the
teachers were required to reapply for their jobs,

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00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:10,279
So in many cases, the staff
composition will look really different, and

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00:31:10,319 --> 00:31:14,119
I think students are going to have
to feel that out of like what's the

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00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:21,119
new culture on my campus? And
we've we've spoken to students who are nervous

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00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:26,960
about that. They knew what to
expect from their school and now things are

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00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,319
different, so they don't really know
what to expect come August twenty eight.

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00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:38,279
So there's there's a lot of markers
that we're watching, all right. Well,

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00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:44,000
Houston Landing dot org is where you
can keep track of this. Miranda

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00:31:44,039 --> 00:31:47,400
and nashuy yalboth done really great work
on this, and I appreciate you taking

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00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,920
some time to explain it to us. Thanks for joining us, Thank you

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00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:53,920
so much. Yeah, thanks for
having us, Matthew. Yeah, and

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00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:59,440
thank you to our sponsors, Texas
State Technical College, Meadows Mental Health Policy

368
00:31:59,519 --> 00:32:02,880
Institute, Educate Texas and Texas Farm
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00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,880
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