1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,760 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:29,120 Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,840 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:49,159 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Over Murderer. I'm Kristin Dilly and 10 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:53,840 I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined today by Greg Aracker, private investigator and 11 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:58,000 newly minted author of the book The Hunt for Brianna Maitland. Greg, thank 12 00:00:58,039 --> 00:01:00,439 you for joining us today. Thank you for to me so for those of 13 00:01:00,479 --> 00:01:04,760 our listeners who might not remember you from our second season, which was two 14 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:07,840 full years ago, tell us a little bit about who you are and what 15 00:01:07,879 --> 00:01:12,000 your very unique job description is so, I'm a private investigator that I work 16 00:01:12,159 --> 00:01:17,719 almost specifically for the Maitland family, whose daughter Brienna has been missing since March 17 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:22,599 nineteenth, two thousand and four. The book is the relentless pursuit of answers 18 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:27,200 to one of Vermont's biggest mysteries. I know Brianna's case is complicated. If 19 00:01:27,239 --> 00:01:30,560 someone is less familiar with the case and they haven't bought your book yet, 20 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:36,280 which we strongly recommend, tell us a little bit about the Brionna Maitland disappearance. 21 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:40,680 The winteen year old Brianna Maitland went missing in Montgomery, Vermont, March 22 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:44,079 nineteenth, two thousand. She left work lack Lantern and which was a historic 23 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:47,560 in She left eleven to twenty pm two miles down the road. Her car 24 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:52,239 was found crashed into band and was backed off the road into an abandoned home 25 00:01:52,439 --> 00:01:55,640 quite hard, punched a hole inside of the house, and no one's ever 26 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:57,599 seen her again. We've been searching for her ever since I got balled around 27 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,359 two thousand and six. How did you go about getting involved in this case? 28 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:06,200 I was actually at my brother's house at Father's Day. My brother's house 29 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:08,039 in Albany and I was on the throughway with my daughter and we went in 30 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:12,080 to use the restroom at one of the three way stops, and there was 31 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:15,719 a poster there. And I've seen those posters. I worked for years as 32 00:02:15,719 --> 00:02:17,400 a Bonnie Hunter. I traveled up and down the East Coast, in and 33 00:02:17,439 --> 00:02:22,080 out of police stations, probably a thousand different police stations, and you'd see 34 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,319 these posters everywhere. I don't know why I caught my eye, but did, 35 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:28,159 and I asked my daughter to commit it to memory, and she did. 36 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:30,280 And I came home and I started looking for things on the internet. 37 00:02:30,479 --> 00:02:35,520 I ended up reaching out to Class Kids. Class Kids is an organization that 38 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:39,039 was started by Holly Class's father Mark. Holly went missing and she was abducted 39 00:02:39,159 --> 00:02:43,680 at a little m California, and I think nineteen ninety three, was subducted 40 00:02:43,719 --> 00:02:46,560 and murdered young girl. He started this organization that does searches and things like 41 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:51,240 that for families of missing people. They had gone up and helped the Maitlands 42 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:54,159 out. Now I was two years out from her disappearance, two years afterwards, 43 00:02:54,199 --> 00:02:58,159 so I got a hold of Brad who headed up to search for the 44 00:02:58,199 --> 00:03:00,840 Maitlands. He put me in touch with Bruce and Kelly, Brianna's parents, 45 00:03:01,039 --> 00:03:05,479 and Kelly was happy to hear from me and asked me to come sit down 46 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:07,960 with him, and that's how I met him. They had moved from Vermont 47 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:10,199 at the time. By that they had moved to governor of New York, 48 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:14,639 and they had moved to get outside of the news coverage area try to have 49 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:16,400 a little normalcy in their life. They wanted to be able to go back 50 00:03:16,479 --> 00:03:20,199 and deal with the police and do searches and things like that, so they 51 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:23,039 just moved a little bit away in a New York state. And that's where 52 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:27,199 they were at the time. Had you transitioned by this point from being a 53 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:31,560 bounty hunter and you trace people down on skip tracing that sort of thing. 54 00:03:32,039 --> 00:03:36,039 Yeah, I was still doing it a little bit when I got married. 55 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:38,599 I was married for a short time. I gave it up. I went 56 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:40,800 back afterwards, I get a divorce, and some of my clients had moved 57 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:43,800 down and stuff. It was never quite the same again, but I still 58 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:46,639 did it. I had a process serving business where I live. I still 59 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:50,719 do that to this day. And we did auto repossessions and stuff like that, 60 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:53,240 all the stuff nobody else wanted to do. All the legal stuff nobody 61 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:55,719 else wanted to do. Yeah, I would still do it for old clients 62 00:03:55,719 --> 00:03:59,960 here and there and stuff like that. Once that came up, I dedicated 63 00:04:00,039 --> 00:04:02,400 a lot of my time to Brionne's case. Some of the best interludes in 64 00:04:02,439 --> 00:04:05,360 the book, I think before you get into the case, or about your 65 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:10,000 life as a bounty hunter, definitely some. I think you've got a lot 66 00:04:10,039 --> 00:04:13,000 of material here when you're ready to do your second book. Quite frankly, 67 00:04:13,639 --> 00:04:17,279 how has your work as a bounty hunter helped you in your current work as 68 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:21,519 a private investigator and now as an advocate for Brianna's case. I get asked 69 00:04:21,519 --> 00:04:25,000 that a lot when I do podcasts and stuff, and I don't know, 70 00:04:25,079 --> 00:04:28,600 other than the fact that experience is a hard thing to explain. It just 71 00:04:28,639 --> 00:04:31,480 comes with time. It's just looking for missing people. Looking for fugitives was 72 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:35,639 one thing. This was a lot different and it became very parent right away. 73 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:39,920 But it's a lot of hard work. It's a lot of being patient, 74 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:43,560 which oftentimes I don't have. It's a lot of soaking up a ton 75 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,800 of information and collecting a lot of information, recording a lot of information. 76 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:49,839 Stuff like that. I thought it translated well, from one job to another. 77 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,839 I was used to being on the road a lot traveled when I did 78 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:57,560 bail skips and stuff like that. So when I travel now to Vermont, 79 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:00,120 New Hampshire and stuff like that, it doesn't bother me as much, I 80 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,399 think is with most people. One of the things you point out in the 81 00:05:02,439 --> 00:05:09,480 book, Greg is the difference between trying to track down a fugitive and trying 82 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:13,959 to track down a missing person, and you contrast those two things. Can 83 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:17,000 you talk a little bit about that when you're looking for someone who jump bell. 84 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:20,839 Some of these guys are on some pretty serious charges and stuff like that. 85 00:05:21,079 --> 00:05:25,680 They're attempting to People are creatures that habit and they fade in and out 86 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:30,160 of their life. They're still staying in contact with their parents or their girlfriend 87 00:05:30,319 --> 00:05:32,519 or whatever. We will used to go. We used to joke about we 88 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,639 would go after the girlfriend and she wasn't wanted for anything, but if we 89 00:05:35,639 --> 00:05:39,959 could find a girlfriend, we'd find the guy. Work that way. If 90 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:42,680 you know that your fugitive is a gambler, you're not going to find him 91 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:45,120 in the library. You're going to find him in because you know there's things 92 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,040 like that. You just have to pick up on and know there's certain things 93 00:05:47,079 --> 00:05:49,800 to look for. They have to survive, they have to find a way 94 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:53,680 to get by, and they have to find a way to do that while 95 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:57,800 they're hiding. It can be really interesting and to see how low people will 96 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:01,199 stoop to try to stay hidden like that. In a case like a missing 97 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:06,160 person's, like Brianna's case, none of that really applies. It's looking at 98 00:06:06,199 --> 00:06:11,959 everyone else and you're looking at the circumstances and it's quite different and it's difficult, 99 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,600 and the police on Brianna's case, I think for people who are familiar 100 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,079 with Brianna's case s they'll understand this. For people who are not, once 101 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:21,000 they if they read the book and they look into it more, they'll understand 102 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:25,319 this. Initially it wasn't treated as well as it should have been. Police 103 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:30,160 made some mistakes which they acknowledge now. It's really unfortunate because that time was 104 00:06:30,199 --> 00:06:32,800 really important. But coming into something and working on it that the police have 105 00:06:32,959 --> 00:06:38,160 dedicated years to after that phase was gone and other people worked on it, 106 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:42,319 it's difficult. A lot of talented, really knowledgeable people have worked on this, 107 00:06:42,639 --> 00:06:46,040 but you start to understand that you're seeing things from different perspectives. Now 108 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:49,560 my perspective that, given the end of the book, I think is correct, 109 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:53,959 and I don't think it's something that people on the outside would see or 110 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:58,480 may acknowledge. If that makes sense. It totally does. And from having 111 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:02,079 read the book and from no I can tell you're a really keen observer of 112 00:07:02,199 --> 00:07:04,920 human nature, which you would have to be in your line of work. 113 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:09,079 And I could definitely get a sense of the real feel that you have for 114 00:07:09,199 --> 00:07:12,959 people. As I was reading through the book and you were discussing all the 115 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:16,639 various facets of Brianna's case, I did want to ask you mentioned this very 116 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:18,399 briefly at the end of the book, but I want to go ahead and 117 00:07:18,399 --> 00:07:23,639 get that out on the record here. When you approached Brianna's family about writing 118 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:26,240 the book, how did they feel about it? Were they cool with you 119 00:07:26,519 --> 00:07:29,959 writing all of this down and putting this out. I had gotten pretty close 120 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,600 to Bruce over the years, Brianna's father, Brianna's mother, Kelly, who 121 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:38,399 initially brought me in. She initially asked me to get involved, and when 122 00:07:38,439 --> 00:07:41,560 I sat down with him, Bruce was really disenchanted with what was going on. 123 00:07:41,959 --> 00:07:45,319 It was still at that point where the police and the family didn't have 124 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:47,879 a good relationship. He didn't talk a lot. Then it flipped the other 125 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:53,720 way. I think Kelly kind of processes things differently than Bruce does, and 126 00:07:53,759 --> 00:07:57,240 that's okay. We still talk occasionally, but we're not close. We don't 127 00:07:57,279 --> 00:08:00,720 talk often, and I respect. However, she's going to process it and 128 00:08:00,759 --> 00:08:03,839 deal with it. That's her thing. Bruce gave me the go ahead one 129 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:07,040 hundred percent. He said I wouldn't want anyone else to write it. In 130 00:08:07,079 --> 00:08:09,639 fact, I think it would have upset him if someone else did. A 131 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:13,399 lot of times when you see true crime books, people don't actually have the 132 00:08:13,439 --> 00:08:18,399 information. It's very frustrating. If you read this book, it's the facts 133 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:22,519 you're getting exact, and it's information people don't have. I mean every time 134 00:08:22,519 --> 00:08:24,240 I read comments on the internet. As a matter of fact, before I 135 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:26,680 got on with you guys, today, I was watching a short video about 136 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:30,399 her case. It popped up on YouTube, and in the comments, people 137 00:08:30,439 --> 00:08:33,720 are saying things are patently false, that they obviously believe things that just aren't 138 00:08:33,759 --> 00:08:39,559 true, and they also commented about how her case is not related to another 139 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:43,039 case that I entirely think it is. I think it's related to another missing 140 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:46,080 girl. And I came to that conclusion because I have the inside information and 141 00:08:46,159 --> 00:08:50,399 I have spent years studying it. It gets confusing. Oh but yeah, 142 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:54,440 Bruce did endorse it. Yeah for sure. So in those situations like on 143 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:58,840 social media, which is of course become such a force during the time since 144 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:05,360 Brehanna has gone missing, is it worth your engaging with these people who are 145 00:09:05,639 --> 00:09:07,919 making statements and I'm going to assume that these people are well meaning, in 146 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:13,039 other words, they're not just being trolls or just writing stuff just to be 147 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:18,519 jerks. Is it worth your engaging with them and setting the record straight or 148 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:22,000 do you not see that as a good use of your time. I don't 149 00:09:22,039 --> 00:09:24,399 know. I don't do it a lot, but I like to try to 150 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:28,320 tell people, look, this is incorrect information, and here's what's the correct 151 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:33,360 information. It's funny how people relay information on Facebook. A lot of my 152 00:09:33,399 --> 00:09:37,200 advertisements on Facebook. And it's a complete picture of the book cover. It 153 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:41,559 says this book can be purchased at online or at the Eloquent Page bookstore in 154 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:45,840 Saint Albans, And underneath in the comments it'll say where can I get this 155 00:09:45,879 --> 00:09:54,320 book? And it drives me nuts, even though it says call me from 156 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:56,240 at a bookstart. Called me from Burmington recently and they said, we want 157 00:09:56,279 --> 00:10:00,000 to carry your book. And I said, great, we have this discuss. 158 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,279 And so everybody keeps coming in and saying, I saw your advertisement in 159 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:07,840 the Burlington Free Press for the advertisement for the book, where do I get 160 00:10:07,879 --> 00:10:13,559 it? The advertisement literally was this is where you can get my book. 161 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:16,399 It's difficult. That's the one thing about this book that I thought was pretty 162 00:10:16,399 --> 00:10:18,600 important, and I think Bruce did too, and I think Lotu Berry, 163 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:22,559 the other private investigator A thought it was really important. Was that it tells 164 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:26,159 you what is wrong about the theories and the rumors that are going around and 165 00:10:26,159 --> 00:10:28,320 why they're wrong, and here's the facts, and this is why you shouldn't 166 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:33,360 believe this. It's nonsense. One of the comments I got going really go 167 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:35,720 around with people, I just say, look, you should read the book. 168 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:37,960 One of them was, look, I already told the police who this 169 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:39,840 is who did it? And I said, okay, I'd like to hear 170 00:10:39,879 --> 00:10:41,799 what you have to say. And he said it was this guy. This 171 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:45,720 is what happened to her, and this is where she is and it's not 172 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:48,799 my job. As he said, I don't know what that's supposed to be. 173 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:50,000 But I said, okay, it's not him. If you read the 174 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,440 book, it'll explain to you why it's not him. It's not possible. 175 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:56,440 And then I doesn't hear anything. But I thought that was important because and 176 00:10:56,480 --> 00:11:00,639 there's a community up there that wants answers, and it's the unknown is scary. 177 00:11:00,919 --> 00:11:03,919 They don't know what to think and you can't help. But hear rumors. 178 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:07,399 It's just natural. So hopefully people will read it. It's gotten rave 179 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:11,240 reviews, absolutely rave reviews. Everyone loves it. People reach out to me 180 00:11:11,279 --> 00:11:13,559 on Facebook all the time. I want to talk about it and stuff like 181 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,639 that. Just great. But I think it gives people perspective on what happened, 182 00:11:16,919 --> 00:11:22,519 and it's minute to minute sometimes some of it, and it's absolutely detailed. 183 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:24,679 And I tell people this before they read it, if I talked to 184 00:11:24,759 --> 00:11:26,200 before they read it, as look, just so you understand. It's very 185 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:31,480 heavy reading at some points because it's times, places, dates, people, 186 00:11:31,639 --> 00:11:35,159 and it can get a little confusing. And then it's also a little repetitive 187 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:39,720 because I put two lengthy articles written by Hank Albarelli, who was a journalist 188 00:11:39,759 --> 00:11:43,639 who wrote articles early on in two thousands, I think six and seven about 189 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:46,919 the case. So it gets a little it seems a little repetitive. But 190 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:50,200 if you look at it as this is helping me learn this material, it 191 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:56,159 helps. That's the only one thing I heard two people say out of probably 192 00:11:56,159 --> 00:12:00,679 a thousand they said this book was repetitive. But it's that way by one 193 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:03,480 girl got ennasty about it without maybe thinking that through that it was that way 194 00:12:03,519 --> 00:12:07,000 by design. There's a couple of things. By designing the book the chapter 195 00:12:07,039 --> 00:12:11,200 about the Maitland's is then it gives you everything you need to know, and 196 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:13,639 it does paint a good picture of where they were living, how they were 197 00:12:13,639 --> 00:12:16,039 living, and who they are and all this other stuff. Didn't need to 198 00:12:16,039 --> 00:12:18,840 be any deeper than that. People in this situation feel like everyone's peaking in 199 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:24,159 their windows all the time and it's intrusive. Out of respect for them, 200 00:12:24,279 --> 00:12:26,200 I didn't want it to be intrusive. Bruce read the whole book before it 201 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:28,519 was released. I said, I'm not putting anything out that you don't want 202 00:12:28,519 --> 00:12:31,320 out there, and when he read it, he said, no, this 203 00:12:31,399 --> 00:12:35,320 is good. Did Bruce ask for any changes in the manuscript. I think 204 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:39,000 he made some corrections, but I don't think he made changes so much. 205 00:12:39,039 --> 00:12:43,000 I can't think of that. I let a small audience about twelve people read 206 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:46,000 it, and I asked I'd give him a list of questions so Bruce and 207 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:48,799 Lou, which if people are familiar with case too, they know Lou because 208 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:52,120 Lou works, we work together. Lou's thirty five year retired police chief law 209 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:56,200 enforcement professional. So I would say, is this factually correct? So that 210 00:12:56,360 --> 00:13:00,159 was the main point of that, and the other people that read, I 211 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:01,679 just want to see how much they enjoyed it and if it made sense, 212 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:05,200 because to me, I knew the material so well that I would find myself 213 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:09,159 when I explained it to people, I would maybe gloss over things, or 214 00:13:09,399 --> 00:13:11,559 when they asked me a question. When I got done, I'd be like, 215 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:13,600 oh, I didn't fill that in. So I wanted to make sure 216 00:13:13,639 --> 00:13:16,080 the book build most of the stuff because the book has to be read and 217 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:22,519 understood by civilians like Kristen and Bill, and also by people that have no 218 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:28,000 familiarity with Brianna's story, and it is important that you reach thousands of people. 219 00:13:28,519 --> 00:13:31,639 The hope is obviously that this will help move the case forward. And 220 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:35,360 then at the same time, when you have experts like Bruce and Kelly Maitland 221 00:13:35,759 --> 00:13:41,159 or your fellow PI Lou Barry. They're reading it from a much more sophisticated 222 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:46,679 level in terms of their understanding of Brianna's life and this loss. Do you 223 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:50,080 feel like you could please all of those audiences? What was your thinking there? 224 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:54,600 It's odd. So I've obviously never written a book before, especially the 225 00:13:54,639 --> 00:13:58,399 part that was about me, but all of it it feels like you're pulling 226 00:13:58,399 --> 00:14:01,320 your pants down in public. Just a weird thing. It's intrusive. A 227 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:05,320 lot of people have said, including my publisher, you need to write a 228 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:07,159 whole book just about Bonnie Unting, and I'm like that, it's weird to 229 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:11,240 write something about your own stuff. Kristen said that just a moment ago. 230 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:15,600 Yeah, I get it. I get I get that for sure. I 231 00:14:15,639 --> 00:14:18,120 could. I don't know how exciting it would be. I could, though 232 00:14:18,159 --> 00:14:22,080 it was when you do that kind of stuff, it doesn't seem crazy at 233 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:24,919 the time, but then i'd look back at it and talk to people about 234 00:14:24,919 --> 00:14:28,639 it. I'm like, that was nuts. I was I thinking. I 235 00:14:28,679 --> 00:14:33,720 was young too, I was pretty young at the time. Would everybody feel 236 00:14:33,759 --> 00:14:37,320 inclusive when you put material out like that. You hope. I hoped I 237 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:41,879 presented everything well enough that everybody understood. That was the whole idea. It's 238 00:14:41,879 --> 00:14:45,000 don't expect when if you read it, don't expect like a book that you 239 00:14:45,039 --> 00:14:46,759 know, how you read a true crime book and they try to describe the 240 00:14:46,799 --> 00:14:50,639 area that you went into, and oh, you're in northern Vermont and that 241 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:54,519 the maple sugar whatever is going on and the trees thaves are turning, and 242 00:14:54,519 --> 00:14:58,360 there's none of that in my book. It's fact, this is what takes 243 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,960 place, this is that's what happened. This was other crimes that were going 244 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:03,759 on at the time. So it of going into all that other than there's 245 00:15:03,799 --> 00:15:07,320 a drug scourge going on at the time and stuff. So I'm not that 246 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:11,720 author that's going to paint you a picture of about nineteen twenties Vermont that morphed 247 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:18,399 into this other thing, other than the fact that maybe that oddly Vermont was 248 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:24,159 almost completely crime free. Certain years they didn't even record any murders. That's 249 00:15:24,159 --> 00:15:26,480 all changed in the last couple of months up there, just now, I've 250 00:15:26,519 --> 00:15:31,200 had seven homicides. I think in the last month they just had three young 251 00:15:31,279 --> 00:15:35,559 Palestinian guys college students get shot on the street. They were walking together and 252 00:15:35,559 --> 00:15:39,639 somebody walked out and shot them. It's just things have changed, I think. 253 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:43,080 And that was another thing I saw. One of the comments was a 254 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:45,679 guy and he was very played about it. He said, I really liked 255 00:15:45,679 --> 00:15:48,399 the book. It was really formative. I wish it was more about me, 256 00:15:48,639 --> 00:15:52,200 which wasn't going to happen, and a little lefts heavy on the facts. 257 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:54,799 That's the purpose of the book was to be heavy on the facts. 258 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:58,879 That was my whole goal. It is definitely meant to be, like the 259 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:03,399 book, a record for the case. You can very clearly see that this 260 00:16:03,519 --> 00:16:08,480 is the definitive work. Yeah. It's drawn from police interviews, from court 261 00:16:08,559 --> 00:16:15,039 records, from my own experience, from newspaper articles, people with firsthand knowledge, 262 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:18,320 and some of it is insane. My brother read one of the chapters 263 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:22,240 and he called me up because I'm traumatized from reading that. That was funny. 264 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:27,879 We can't get into every single aspect of the roadblocks and the issues that 265 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:32,879 has plagued this case because we would be here all night, and although we 266 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,240 love talking to you, I don't think any of us would have spend seventeen 267 00:16:36,279 --> 00:16:40,440 hours doing a recitation of all of the issues, but can you highlight just 268 00:16:40,559 --> 00:16:47,480 some of the roadblocks and issues that have caused this case to become old and 269 00:16:47,519 --> 00:16:51,879 cold. That goes to I think people got really frustrated that read it. 270 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:55,039 I heard from a lot of people up in that community. They would reach 271 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:56,320 out to me on Facebook and they would want to talk, and I would 272 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,919 talk to them, I would FaceTime with them, or I would just chat 273 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,000 with him or whatever, and they were frustrated at the way the police handled 274 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:04,920 things. And I discussed that at the end of the book too, about 275 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,799 how that's changed. But in the beginning it was handled really poorly. So 276 00:17:08,839 --> 00:17:12,640 one of the things that really went south is that when her vehicle was there, 277 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:17,079 it was spotted there on the night of the nineteenth at the Dutch burned 278 00:17:17,079 --> 00:17:19,599 home, the abandoned home. The police ended up coming around one o'clock the 279 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,880 next afternoon. In the morning, the car was spotted a bunch of times 280 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,000 as it sat there, but when the police officer showed up, he viewed 281 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:30,640 the vehicle and stuff. He saw her paychecks on the front seat from the 282 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:33,279 lantern, the black lantern in and he had the car towed away, and 283 00:17:33,319 --> 00:17:37,960 he went to the end and the end was closed and he left and he 284 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:41,880 went on a long weekend and never filed anything. If he ran the registration 285 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:45,599 and stuff like that, he never contacted Kelly Maitland who it was registered to, 286 00:17:45,079 --> 00:17:48,039 which would have put things in motion. The alarm bell would have rang, 287 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:52,599 and it didn't. So by the next week she was staying at a 288 00:17:52,599 --> 00:17:55,759 friend's house. The next week, her friend came home. She had been 289 00:17:55,759 --> 00:17:59,200 away for the weekend. There's another problem. She returned home on I think 290 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:02,640 a Monday. She ended up calling the maintenance and the maintland started looking for 291 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:04,359 her. They end up going to the police station when they really started to 292 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:07,880 panic. They go back to the police station later that week and the top 293 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:12,039 that was at the scene pulled a picture out of his effects and showed it 294 00:18:12,039 --> 00:18:17,079 to him and said, is this her car? And they added Kelly physically 295 00:18:17,079 --> 00:18:18,759 got sick. They realized, okay, where did he get towed to? 296 00:18:18,839 --> 00:18:22,400 And they went to the tow yard and they popped the trunk looking for her, 297 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:26,480 and they're just baffled what took place here. Now there's a huge time 298 00:18:26,559 --> 00:18:29,519 frame. You're talking from Friday night when she left work and went missing. 299 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,960 So I'd have to look in the book, it's there by almost to the 300 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:37,440 minute, but I think it was Friday, the following Thursday that no one's 301 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:41,960 been looking for. So whoever did this, make no mistake. Somebody did 302 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:44,079 this. A deer didn't run out the road, and she went off the 303 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:45,759 road and had a tree or something like that. She backed up off a 304 00:18:45,759 --> 00:18:48,839 busy road, a busy a fast road, I should say, fifty mile 305 00:18:48,839 --> 00:18:52,440 an hour a road, backed up off the opposite side of the road into 306 00:18:52,519 --> 00:18:56,240 a building and had to have been extracted from the vehicle because it sat right 307 00:18:56,279 --> 00:19:00,839 there, hung up on the foundation. But you have this huge and then 308 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:03,839 the police just I don't know if it was because they were so sparse up 309 00:19:03,839 --> 00:19:07,640 there, the police are so sparse up there or what, but the Mainlands 310 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:11,160 really had a hard time with them. I mean they ended up nine days 311 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:14,160 after she went missing. They went to the end Bruce died and got the 312 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,319 phone records from the end. The police hadn't even been there yet. I 313 00:19:17,319 --> 00:19:19,200 hadn't even been there to ask any questions. Was she okay that night or 314 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:22,119 did she mention anything? Was anybody wait there or nothing? And then at 315 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:25,640 the end of the book, I explained that the general public and stuff. 316 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:29,319 For many years, were really pissed off at the police. But those people 317 00:19:29,319 --> 00:19:32,240 are all gone. They have nothing to do with the case for many years, 318 00:19:32,279 --> 00:19:33,680 and the people that are in there now are different. So you can't 319 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:37,559 go back and undo that. You can't just shit all over them because they 320 00:19:37,559 --> 00:19:40,759 did that, because it doesn't solve anything that was part of the issue. 321 00:19:40,759 --> 00:19:42,640 For sure, that was what you were looking for. Yeah, no, 322 00:19:42,799 --> 00:19:49,960 absolutely it is. Bruce has talked about his incredible unhappiness with the Vermont State 323 00:19:51,039 --> 00:19:55,960 Police, and it's worth mentioning here we're talking about beautiful northern Vermont. In 324 00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:00,240 a lot of those towns, there are no local law enforcement officers. It's 325 00:20:00,279 --> 00:20:03,680 all done on a regional basis by the Vermont State Police, and Bruce has 326 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:10,039 talked about how incredibly unhappy he was with how they handled things from the beginning 327 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:15,359 of Brianna's disappearance. At what point do things begin to turn around and they 328 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:22,359 begin to build more of a relationship between Bruce and his family and the Vermont 329 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:27,160 State Police executives where the case begins to move forward in a more positive way. 330 00:20:27,559 --> 00:20:32,279 I don't remember specifically, but I do remember he's long since retired now, 331 00:20:32,279 --> 00:20:34,400 but Glen Hall headed up the case for a while and Bruce had a 332 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,119 very good relationship with him, and I think it was just a matter of 333 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:41,400 them being honest and working with him. And the people are in there now 334 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:45,839 sincerely want to out and they do a good job and they listen to Bruce 335 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:48,440 and brucell'sys to them, and it's a whole different story now. But I 336 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:52,000 don't remember exactly when that took a change. I've talked to him about this 337 00:20:52,039 --> 00:20:56,640 before, where other cases where you see people are very frustrated in our odds 338 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,960 of the police and really give them the business, and so it doesn't help 339 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,079 anything. Both have to try to work together in function with each other, 340 00:21:03,559 --> 00:21:07,440 but it's hard because the emotions are so high and it's difficult. It's got 341 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,799 to be an effort on both part of the family and the police. And 342 00:21:10,839 --> 00:21:12,200 in his case, at worked because he worked at it for a long time, 343 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:15,599 and Bruce is a tough guy, he's fair. You're listening to Mind 344 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:22,799 over Murder. We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're 345 00:21:22,839 --> 00:21:27,440 back here at mindover Murder. So the case will be twenty years old next 346 00:21:27,519 --> 00:21:34,160 year. We know that it can be sometimes very difficult to solve cases that 347 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:41,480 are heading into the double digits. What are your main concerns about Bree's case, 348 00:21:41,759 --> 00:21:45,880 the older and colder it gets. I don't know. We still work 349 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:49,240 as hard as ever, and luckily we've got lou Berry with us. Now. 350 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,680 There are things happening right now that I'm excited about. It's difficult, 351 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:57,119 but I think there was something that was overlooked, and I'm pretty confident that 352 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,519 I hope that the book brought it. People said I, maybe I should 353 00:22:00,559 --> 00:22:03,480 have been a little more clear about it, because I didn't realize this that 354 00:22:03,519 --> 00:22:08,920 people that read the book everyone sees it differently. Everyone paints a different picture 355 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,440 in their mind when they read the book. Maybe I should have been brutally 356 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:15,440 clear about what I was trying to say. But I have a very good 357 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,240 point to make at the end of the book, and I think it's important 358 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:22,240 that people understand me clearly. But I don't know. It's a difficult situation, 359 00:22:22,599 --> 00:22:26,000 for sure, but I'm pretty confident that there's something some pretty exciting stuff 360 00:22:26,039 --> 00:22:30,640 going on. Are you saying you wish you'd been clearer or more blunt, 361 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:37,720 but more blunt? Probably. Yeah, it's a strange thing. I'll ask 362 00:22:37,799 --> 00:22:40,200 people we'll talk about the book and I'll say, because in the end, 363 00:22:40,279 --> 00:22:42,599 I tell who I think is involved, and they'll say, I'll say who 364 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,440 do you think it is? And they'll they'll name people that I get told 365 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,240 in the book it's not it's And I'm like, how did you get to 366 00:22:48,279 --> 00:22:52,960 that? Everybody has their pet theories when it comes to a case that they're 367 00:22:53,079 --> 00:22:56,480 very invested in. And we have people who come up to us and they're 368 00:22:56,519 --> 00:23:02,240 like, I still think actually supposition about our case and we're like, okay, 369 00:23:02,279 --> 00:23:03,759 but probably that's not likely, and they're like, Oh, I don't 370 00:23:03,799 --> 00:23:07,680 care. I like that anyway. Like I read this, read this great 371 00:23:07,839 --> 00:23:11,440 magazine. I've got a subscription to Skeptic magazine, and then they have different 372 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:15,920 scientists and stuff, and I like the sociological type stuff. One of them 373 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,200 I was reading was that if people have a belief and they are presented with 374 00:23:18,319 --> 00:23:22,880 empirical evidence that it's not true, they will dig their heels in even deeper. 375 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:27,359 Instead of saying that's emotional maturity. Instead of saying, you know what, 376 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:32,160 you've presented me with evidence that proves that I am incorrect. I stand 377 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:34,039 corrected. Most people don't do that. They will dig the heels in even 378 00:23:34,079 --> 00:23:37,839 deeper. No, they just don't want to be wrong. That's emotional immaturity, 379 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,640 just to just not be able to say if you have evidence in front 380 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:42,559 of you. So that's what I try to do with the book, is 381 00:23:42,599 --> 00:23:47,559 look, this isn't true and here's why. And ABC inded, it's a 382 00:23:47,559 --> 00:23:51,319 lot of the stuff I couldn't prove definitively that it wasn't true, but it 383 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:53,960 was so close to impossible. One of the guys that was always thought to 384 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:57,039 be involved, he had no relation to brand Me. He wasn't even in 385 00:23:57,079 --> 00:24:00,480 town long enough to even knowwher, but I did. I really liked that 386 00:24:00,599 --> 00:24:04,359 final chapter where you're giving and you call it not the final chapter, but 387 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:10,640 the fact that this is and you systematically state here is people have said X, 388 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,200 here's the way that's not true. I liked that approach to it because 389 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,400 it really does like it is you being able to stand up and say, 390 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:19,200 look, as someone who has worked on this case, if you're saying it's 391 00:24:19,279 --> 00:24:22,839 this person, I'm here to tell you here's why it's not. I like 392 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,880 the bluntness of it. Yeah something And Kristen said, just a minute ago, 393 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:30,359 and this happens in the Colonial Park by murders. People don't even say 394 00:24:30,559 --> 00:24:36,240 I think. They say it's so and so. Yeah, and then when 395 00:24:36,279 --> 00:24:41,440 you explain to them that here are reasons why it's likely not so, they 396 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:45,440 do dig in their heels in a very bizarre way. Yeah. I get 397 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:48,519 a theory about that. I think that a lot of people that have a 398 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:52,039 regular life, which I don't, but a lot of people that just let's 399 00:24:52,039 --> 00:24:56,119 say they go to a job and let's say a factory or something, or 400 00:24:56,279 --> 00:24:59,680 at whatever. Where can a retail store or something. If you're not like 401 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,880 with all these situations where you have to think critically all day long, I 402 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,799 just don't think you exercised that part of your mind. And we run into 403 00:25:07,799 --> 00:25:10,759 this situation where and I don't know what this is, it's in the book 404 00:25:10,799 --> 00:25:12,960 when I talk about it often, but interviewing people up there, a lot 405 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,440 of them didn't seem to have a clear understanding of the difference between gossip and 406 00:25:17,599 --> 00:25:21,119 fact. And I don't know what that is, but it was difficult. 407 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:22,920 We actually had a lot of people who tell us more than one story. 408 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:26,599 They'd say, I'm what happened to her? Say okay, I want to 409 00:25:26,799 --> 00:25:29,799 tell me, and they would tell two different stories, sometimes three, and 410 00:25:29,839 --> 00:25:32,119 I'd go, wait a minute, they can't all be true, and they 411 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:33,160 would be like, what are you talking about? Well, you just be 412 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,480 three different stories. They can't all be true. Which one's true? Which 413 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:37,480 one of the one? You want to? Just didn't know? Just look 414 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:41,480 at you a blank look, I don't know. You're a teacher, Kristen. 415 00:25:41,519 --> 00:25:45,160 Why don't they teach critical thinking in high school? We try very hard, 416 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,960 we really do, but I think it is literally it is something that's 417 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,880 hard to be taught, especially if you have, like you were saying, 418 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,400 people who want to dig in their heels. If you've got a teenager who's 419 00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:00,359 bound and determined to always be right at the expense of all other things, 420 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,000 never mind the fact that I have, you know, a college degree and 421 00:26:03,279 --> 00:26:07,400 a postgraduate degree in all of that. If they want me to be wrong 422 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:08,519 and they're right, then by gosh, that's how it's going to be. 423 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,279 I get that whole dig your heels in mentality. I'm around it all day. 424 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:17,680 I would like to see somebody teach logical fallacies, because you in my 425 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,519 class. I do. Yeah, I do. That's awesome because once you 426 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:23,880 learn that, you literally look at I've given my daughter a bunch of study 427 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,759 materials for that, because once you learn that stuff, you start to look 428 00:26:26,759 --> 00:26:30,200 at the world differently. And I'll tell you right now that I should probably 429 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,039 should have expanded there. When I put the book out. Other people who 430 00:26:33,079 --> 00:26:36,400 had written books told me, they said, once you put this out, 431 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:38,279 you're going to regret that you didn't add stuff and put stuff in. So 432 00:26:38,279 --> 00:26:41,279 I kept going over and asking other people like Bruce and Blue, what did 433 00:26:41,319 --> 00:26:44,839 I miss? What should I expand on something that? And then it went 434 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,839 to the publisher and the editor. There is a very important thing to understand 435 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,559 at the end, and it's that I believe it's just my opinion. Did 436 00:26:52,599 --> 00:26:56,319 the police and the general public have been looking at this wrong for years? 437 00:26:56,119 --> 00:27:00,480 And it's like a logical fallacy, is when you look at something in your 438 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,119 mind just is illogical. How do I want to explain this. I'm trying 439 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:07,440 to think of an example of something that's illogical, So I might as well 440 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,640 tell you this that I think that Brianna's case is This is the first time 441 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,920 I've ever publicly said this. I think Brianna's case is related to more on 442 00:27:15,039 --> 00:27:18,799 Murger's case. Doesn't surprise me, You do I do absolutely, and let 443 00:27:18,839 --> 00:27:22,079 me tell you why. And this is another thing I read in the comment 444 00:27:22,079 --> 00:27:23,319 earlier. And I know a lot of people are going to disagree with me, 445 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,960 and I know that Lou and I having a conversation about this. So 446 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:32,160 back in the early days, prior to me even being involved, the police 447 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:34,920 from from Vermont went to New Hampshire and they had a meeting and the FBI 448 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:38,000 sat in, and they came out publicly and they said after the meeting, 449 00:27:38,079 --> 00:27:41,240 they give a public release and they said, we don't believe these two things 450 00:27:41,279 --> 00:27:42,839 are related. And they said it a couple more times, but then they 451 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:48,160 never didn't hear about it. But after that and then when Hank Calbertrelli wrote 452 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,759 his articles, one of them was entitled is something about is there a Seriah 453 00:27:51,799 --> 00:27:53,799 killer around the Lucids? In the book the whole original articles. Yeah, 454 00:27:53,799 --> 00:27:56,599 I remember the article. And the police came forward and they said, there's 455 00:27:56,599 --> 00:27:59,960 no serial killer out there. We're looking for evidence, We're not looking for 456 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,200 some ghost and all this other stuff. In their first meeting, what did 457 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,119 they do. They looked at just like I did in the book. They 458 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:07,839 compared the two. Okay, so if you compare the two, you look 459 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,960 at Brianna. Brianna was staying with a friend with her and her father in 460 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,599 a home. So she woke up in the home. There was other occupants 461 00:28:15,599 --> 00:28:17,119 in the home. When she went to bed at night, there was other 462 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:18,400 occupants in the home. She got up, she drove a short distance to 463 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,839 her job. She went into this job in a small building where there was 464 00:28:22,319 --> 00:28:26,079 a few customers coming in here and there. It's an end. She worked 465 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,519 in the kitchen. She could see her car outside out the window. She 466 00:28:29,599 --> 00:28:33,599 knew everybody. She left there and she disappears literally two minutes down the road. 467 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,000 Maura was at college. She fabricated a story about a death in her 468 00:28:38,039 --> 00:28:41,400 family to her professors. She went to a liquor store and about alcohol. 469 00:28:41,599 --> 00:28:45,920 She drove hundreds of miles away and it ended up on a remote road, 470 00:28:45,119 --> 00:28:48,480 went off the road in an unpredictable accident. She left at an unpredictable time 471 00:28:48,519 --> 00:28:53,599 to an underpredictable destination and an unpredictable accident, and within minutes she disappeared. 472 00:28:53,759 --> 00:28:56,279 Okay, so they looked at that and they go, these two things are 473 00:28:56,319 --> 00:29:00,880 not the same, and you can understand look at why they would look at 474 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:06,240 this as a logical fallacy. Okay, what is a random abductor give a 475 00:29:06,279 --> 00:29:10,279 shit what these what their backgrounds are, or where they're going or where they're 476 00:29:10,319 --> 00:29:12,279 from. He doesn't care about anything, correct. All he cares about is 477 00:29:12,279 --> 00:29:15,799 that he put himself in the right place at the right time. It's conducive 478 00:29:15,839 --> 00:29:19,440 to his activities. That's all he cares about. So to look at those 479 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:23,480 two things and say these two things aren't related, these two girls that live 480 00:29:23,559 --> 00:29:29,319 totally different lives, is a complete wrong way of looking at that. That's 481 00:29:29,319 --> 00:29:33,599 almost like failing in the logical fallacy. You see what I'm saying. It's 482 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:37,839 like saying something is better because it's popular. No, that doesn't make any 483 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:41,359 sense by that line of thinking. Hitler was the man. That's not true. 484 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,640 It's the same idea. You can't take these two girls and say that's 485 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:48,279 what they did early on. That's they didn't have any other information. Now 486 00:29:48,319 --> 00:29:52,799 I'm guessing I wasn't in the meeting, But how would they take these two 487 00:29:52,839 --> 00:29:56,200 cases and look at them and say, Brianna, it was in this situation. 488 00:29:56,359 --> 00:29:59,079 More was in this situation. These things can't have anything to do with 489 00:29:59,119 --> 00:30:02,680 each other. These girls are totally different. Bullshit, A random Inductor doesn't 490 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,200 care about any of that. He's just trying to find someone put himself in 491 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:10,960 the right place at the right time that's conducive to his activities. And when 492 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,119 you read the book. In the contents of this book is a person who 493 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:18,440 was a prolific rapist and a murderer, and the police knew this because he 494 00:30:18,519 --> 00:30:22,160 was caught, and they never not one person said I wonder if he was 495 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,640 involved. Does that make any sense? It makes sense when you look at 496 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,440 the system, because the system failed because of the way it's set up. 497 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:33,640 Are you in a position then to say whether you think this offender is alive 498 00:30:33,759 --> 00:30:36,440 or dead. I don't know how much of that I should give away. 499 00:30:37,039 --> 00:30:38,519 And the only reason I say that is because I have my opinion. If 500 00:30:38,519 --> 00:30:41,720 you read the book, I think you. I think when someone reads the 501 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,160 book, they know they'll know what my opinion is. I hope did I 502 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:45,359 get that across in the book, Kristen, you read yes, No, 503 00:30:45,559 --> 00:30:48,440 very definitely. And I was just as you were talking, I was going 504 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,799 back and reviewing and making sure, Okay, did this come across Well, 505 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,680 yes, I think it did. I think it came across one okay, 506 00:30:56,119 --> 00:30:59,680 Bill said earlier people will definitively say something like it's this person, there's that 507 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,160 person. So the other day, almost daily, I'll see in the comments, 508 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,720 one specifically and a thread that I read, this guy said these two 509 00:31:06,759 --> 00:31:10,160 things are not related More and Brianna are not related, And I wrote back, 510 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:11,359 you have no way of knowing that. How would you know that? 511 00:31:11,359 --> 00:31:14,839 That doesn't make you sense to make that kind of a statement. You have 512 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,480 no way of knowing that the fact of the matter is you should be thinking 513 00:31:17,519 --> 00:31:21,559 that they are because of what I just said that it is at least possible 514 00:31:21,599 --> 00:31:25,119 you should at least entertain it. In Brianna's case, for people that know 515 00:31:25,319 --> 00:31:29,160 about her, everyone did this thing, which Kristin helped me out with this. 516 00:31:29,599 --> 00:31:33,000 If this is a logical fail, see also where people try to take 517 00:31:33,039 --> 00:31:36,519 things that happened in her life prior and make it fit that this is the 518 00:31:36,559 --> 00:31:38,720 cause of this. For instance, she was in a fight post hoc ergo 519 00:31:38,839 --> 00:31:42,920 propter hawk. What is the post hoc ergo propter hoc? Is that what 520 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:45,839 it is? What do they call it? When you cherry pick things to 521 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:51,720 fit post talk ergo proptroc is after this? Because of this? Okay, 522 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,839 what's the one where you try to find information to support your already made idea. 523 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:57,920 You're already I got that one. Yeah, cherry picking. This is 524 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:00,559 good a term for it right now as we can think of. I haven't 525 00:32:00,559 --> 00:32:05,759 looked at my logical fallacy materials yet so well, so I'm running short. 526 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,119 So she was in a fight twenty two days or twenty four days prior to 527 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:12,319 her disappearance. So everyone thinks that this has this must have something to do 528 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,319 You still see that counts today. This had to do something to do with 529 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:16,240 this must be what it is. This girl punched her in the face. 530 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,359 It's had to have something to do with it. You got to keep something 531 00:32:19,359 --> 00:32:22,200 in mind. I think people forget that they were sixteen and seventeen year old 532 00:32:22,279 --> 00:32:24,559 kids. These weren't adults, and they were immature, and they were partying 533 00:32:24,599 --> 00:32:28,240 and all kinds of stuff, and there were goofballs. And if you think 534 00:32:28,279 --> 00:32:31,160 back when you were sixteen and Brianna had been with this girl's boyfriend, she 535 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:35,160 had left town, that girl and she'd gone to the family. When she 536 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,640 came back, she found out brian had been with her boyfriend, and she 537 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:39,359 got in a fight with her. And everybody accuses this girl of having something 538 00:32:39,359 --> 00:32:42,640 to do with it, merciless. And when you talk to her now, 539 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:44,799 this girl will say, Look, if she did it to me today, 540 00:32:44,799 --> 00:32:46,440 I do I punch her again. And it wasn't just that she was with 541 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:51,279 her boyfriend. They were friends, and it was hurtful to know that she 542 00:32:51,359 --> 00:32:53,519 did this. Her friend did this to her. So it's understandable. It 543 00:32:53,559 --> 00:32:59,000 doesn't necessarily equate to murder. And there's other things that she had contact with, 544 00:32:59,039 --> 00:33:00,920 these guys that are dealers and stuff like that. I don't think that 545 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:05,160 could be avoided. Up there, there was always this talk of all this 546 00:33:05,279 --> 00:33:07,039 money being owed and all this other stuff. Look, she was a seventeen 547 00:33:07,119 --> 00:33:09,880 year old kid that worked a part time job. The two checks that were 548 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:13,200 on her car seat, people made a big deal. Why did they take 549 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,799 her checks? The checks were for almost nothing. She only worked three days. 550 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:19,039 I think they were eeached for a day's pay or something. They were 551 00:33:19,039 --> 00:33:21,799 almost nothing. And she worked at that kj's diner. She made a few 552 00:33:21,799 --> 00:33:24,799 bucks there. She wasn't this big independent adult. She drove a car that 553 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,640 friends would work on it and stuff like that and keep it running and stuff. 554 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:30,799 And she was sleeping from going from house to house, spending time with 555 00:33:30,839 --> 00:33:35,160 people. The only reason she was doing it, and everybody makes it Maitland's 556 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,400 out to be a bad family because of that. And I think the only 557 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:39,319 reason she was doing that was because they lived in a remote area and she 558 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:43,359 was felt isolated and she wanted to be down with her friends and be running 559 00:33:43,359 --> 00:33:45,960 around with friends and stuff. Yeah, it was what it was, and 560 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:49,200 it's not horribly uncommon in that there. You talk to the locals and they're 561 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,759 like, I moved out at fifteen. I moved out at seventeen. It's 562 00:33:51,759 --> 00:33:53,799 not that big of a deal. But what ends up happening is that she 563 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:59,799 gets into this situation where she's not monitored like most people are. Most people 564 00:33:59,799 --> 00:34:02,039 who have continuity in their life. Bill walks out his door and says hi 565 00:34:02,119 --> 00:34:06,119 to the mailman, and he gets his coffee at the corner shop and everybody 566 00:34:06,119 --> 00:34:07,880 sees them all day long. She wasn't like that. She didn't have clear 567 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:12,360 continuity, so no one and then her friends were mad at her because of 568 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,079 the fight. So everybody just and her friends will tell you, look d 569 00:34:15,039 --> 00:34:16,599 that would have blown over with time, It would have blown over. But 570 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:21,400 everybody who's staying away from everybody, no more phone calls and we're hanging out 571 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,000 partying at night, and so she starred laying loon. Now she's not being 572 00:34:24,039 --> 00:34:28,480 mined. So it all ended up being a kind of a perfect storm, 573 00:34:28,519 --> 00:34:32,119 I think. And she wasn't a seventeen year old girl who was living at 574 00:34:32,119 --> 00:34:37,360 home with mom and dad and coming and going each day with her whereabouts being 575 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:43,519 known by family and friends. If she was involved in a more conventional living 576 00:34:43,559 --> 00:34:47,079 situation for a seventeen year old girl. I think it's important to ask the 577 00:34:47,159 --> 00:34:52,519 question at this point, what do you think it's going to take to solve 578 00:34:52,599 --> 00:34:57,960 this case? Now that we're approaching the twenty year mark, is finding Breez's 579 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:00,880 body going to be a step in the right direction, or given the information 580 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:05,480 that you have, is it maybe not possible that we're going to find her. 581 00:35:06,119 --> 00:35:08,320 I think it would help, but I already think I know the police 582 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:10,559 have to get that over the finish line, but I think I know it 583 00:35:12,119 --> 00:35:15,599 at least the basic framework, So I don't know. We also don't want 584 00:35:15,639 --> 00:35:21,480 to let you loose before we ask a little bit about private investigations for the 585 00:35:21,559 --> 00:35:25,440 missing, because they're doing some really excellent work in addition to all of the 586 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:30,199 work on Brand's case. So can you talk about private investigations for the missing? 587 00:35:30,639 --> 00:35:34,800 So that organization was started. Bruce and I used to talk about that 588 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:38,079 quite often and how families couldn't afford a private investigator to help them and stuff, 589 00:35:38,079 --> 00:35:42,960 and it's not the police's fault. Where As time goes on and the 590 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,719 years go by, they're the police. They have present commitments, they have 591 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:50,519 to do other things. It doesn't become like a Really they're not extremely proactive 592 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:52,559 maybe and not by choice. A lot of them want to be that way, 593 00:35:52,599 --> 00:35:57,559 they just can't. So having a private investigator is the families hope it 594 00:35:57,679 --> 00:36:00,559 helps. Private investigators can get people to a cops can't things like that. 595 00:36:00,599 --> 00:36:06,480 So we talked about it and when Brianna's reward money came up six times out, 596 00:36:06,599 --> 00:36:09,039 he took the money and he started this organization and it's doing well and 597 00:36:09,079 --> 00:36:14,440 it's providing private investigators for families all over the country and we need donations. 598 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:16,719 We can go to the website check it out. Some really good stuff on 599 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:21,079 there. And they just had a five k run of walk and which I 600 00:36:21,159 --> 00:36:24,039 participated in. I did. I did it virtually, yes, but I 601 00:36:24,079 --> 00:36:29,440 did. Yeah. It was in Reading, mass where Lance lives. Lance 602 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:31,760 and his girlfriend put it on. It was fun, it was a good 603 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:36,480 day and it was a good turnout. And did you run? I walked, 604 00:36:37,119 --> 00:36:42,239 not a runner, my sister and some friends. So if our listeners 605 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,320 want to help, they can check out private investigations for the missing. We'll 606 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:49,639 put the link in the show notes. They can find out more about the 607 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:53,840 organization. They can make donations. We're actually recording this on Giving Tuesday. 608 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:59,880 It never goes out of fashion to give money to deserving organizations, particularly this 609 00:37:00,079 --> 00:37:02,400 time of year, so we do urge people to check that out. You 610 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:07,480 continue to work this case, correct, Oh, yeah, absolutely. I'm 611 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:10,159 in Vermont, New Hampshire often and Greg. If people want to buy the 612 00:37:10,199 --> 00:37:14,800 book, they want to buy the book. So if you google the name 613 00:37:15,119 --> 00:37:19,679 hunt for Brianna Maitland you will find it for sale through my publisher. It's 614 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,920 sold at the Eloquent Page Bookstore in St. Albans. If you go in, 615 00:37:23,199 --> 00:37:25,880 Donna owns the store will help you out. She's awesome, she's great, 616 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:29,519 She's been really good to me. And if you want a signed copy, 617 00:37:29,639 --> 00:37:31,400 can reach out to me on Facebook, pay me on PayPal or credit 618 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:35,079 card or whatever you want to do and I will mail you a signed copy. 619 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:37,639 We both love the book. We really enjoyed it. I'm sorry that 620 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:43,079 we may not get a Tales from the Bounty Hunter from Greg over a hacker. 621 00:37:43,199 --> 00:37:47,159 I think I'm to continue to hope it's a great idea. I'm telling 622 00:37:47,199 --> 00:37:51,559 you Tales from the Bounty Hunter. There you go. I think that would 623 00:37:51,559 --> 00:37:54,239 be tremendous. It might be fun. That was a lot. I didn't 624 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:58,679 realize what I was getting myself into when I wrote the book. There's a 625 00:37:58,679 --> 00:38:01,239 lot of work. It was fun though. It was good. It was 626 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:05,960 good therapy and this is I think this is going to be the book of 627 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,199 record about the case, and there is nobody better to have written it. 628 00:38:08,519 --> 00:38:12,159 Greg, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today. 629 00:38:12,199 --> 00:38:15,199 We appreciate it. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Guys, 630 00:38:15,519 --> 00:38:17,320 that is going to do it for this episode of Mind Over Murder. Thank 631 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:30,559 you so much for listening. We'll see you next time. Mind Over Murder 632 00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:37,719 is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are 633 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:43,119 Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our 634 00:38:43,159 --> 00:38:47,239 theme music is by Kevin McLoud. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with 635 00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:52,400 Coral Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 636 00:38:52,599 --> 00:38:57,599 You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, 637 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,079 and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas. Five 638 00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:07,360 six. Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.