1 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:21,760 We're back with another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Kashinsky, 2 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:24,920 culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show 3 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:28,879 at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on x at FDR l 4 00:00:29,039 --> 00:00:32,479 s T, make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts, and of 5 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:36,280 course to the premium version of the Federalist dot com as well. Speaking of 6 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:40,799 the Federalist dot com, I'm joined today by Nathan Lemur. Nathan is the 7 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:44,560 CEO of Fixed Gear Strategies. You can follow him on Twitter at Nathan Lemur 8 00:00:44,679 --> 00:00:47,799 DC. He has an article about what we're going to be talking about today 9 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:52,439 up on the Federalist dot com. Right now, Before I bring Nathan in, 10 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:55,840 I just want to say, of course, I'm also joined by a 11 00:00:55,920 --> 00:01:00,799 co pilot today, none other than Christopher Bedford, a contributor at the Federalist. 12 00:01:00,159 --> 00:01:03,200 Chris, how are you doing today? I'm excellent? How are you, 13 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:08,439 Emily? I'm great? Chris set up this conversation. So Nathan, 14 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:11,599 first of all, welcome to Federalist Radio Hour, and thank you so much 15 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:15,400 for joining us on a very busy week. Yeah, indeed, thanks for 16 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:22,280 having me a longtime listener first time caller. I haven't heard that in a 17 00:01:22,359 --> 00:01:26,760 while, Nathan, So we wanted to talk to you about TikTok. That's 18 00:01:26,799 --> 00:01:32,239 what your article on the Federalist is about right now, and we're basically thinking, 19 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:34,959 you know, we're recording this on Tuesday morning. The CEO of TikTok 20 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:40,680 is about to testify, so things will change as the day progresses, but 21 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:46,400 that doesn't matter because we know the basics of the situation and they will endure. 22 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:49,680 So could you tell us, just Nathan, about the current bill that 23 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:55,599 has provoked the most recent wave of debate, because it feels to a lot 24 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:57,560 of people like it came out of absolutely nowhere, Like there was this total 25 00:01:57,719 --> 00:02:02,280 lull in what was happen happening with TikTok, and then suddenly it exploded because 26 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:07,239 this bill passed through committee. So basically what's going on right now? Yeah, 27 00:02:07,439 --> 00:02:10,479 So for several months there have been serious conversations in both the House and 28 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:15,520 the Senate about what to do about TikTok. A number of different legislative proposals. 29 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:23,719 Many have been based off of President Trump's original concept of forcing a divestiture 30 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:29,719 of TikTok back into twenty twenty and then this has been just ongoing and a 31 00:02:29,719 --> 00:02:32,240 lot of people are trying to figure out how to do this. So two 32 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:38,120 weeks ago there was a classified briefing that triggered represented Polone, a Democrat in 33 00:02:38,159 --> 00:02:43,120 the Energy e Commerce Committee, and represented Mike Gallagher, a Republican who runs 34 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:46,319 the CCP Select Committee. It's really kind of narrowed down and hammer out this 35 00:02:46,439 --> 00:02:52,240 legislative proposal, which is not really aptly titled, but it's called the Protecting 36 00:02:52,319 --> 00:02:55,960 Americans from Foreign Adversary Controlled Applications Act, which what it would do is it 37 00:02:55,960 --> 00:03:04,360 would force the divestiture of TikTok or similar apps that are owned by the CCP. 38 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:08,680 TikTok is has a parent company known as byte Dance, which is controlled 39 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:14,560 by the CCP and base in China. And this bill really is a narrow 40 00:03:14,599 --> 00:03:20,560 approach to basically, you know, get rid of the cancer that is the 41 00:03:20,599 --> 00:03:24,840 CCP's ability to to spy out Americans while also allowing Americans to enjoy the TikTok 42 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:30,240 app. So if TikTok does not it does divest. If Byte Dance does 43 00:03:30,319 --> 00:03:35,319 divest within one hundred and eighty days of the passage of the law, TikTok 44 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:42,360 could continue, but if they don't divest, then that's where the legislation would 45 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:46,759 kick in. TikTok over the past couple months been able to fight any of 46 00:03:46,759 --> 00:03:49,919 the tech. With Trumps out of office for three years, he had been 47 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:54,919 big on this, and then Republicans and Democrats combined, we're not really able 48 00:03:54,960 --> 00:04:00,840 to push the fight on anti trust and then suddenly it's just kind of lasting 49 00:04:00,919 --> 00:04:03,759 back in. Is that simply a national security aspect that pushed us back through 50 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:08,599 Congress? I think that's a really fair point. The fact there's a lot 51 00:04:08,599 --> 00:04:13,080 of conversation around privacy or antitrust or Section two thirty, a lot of time 52 00:04:13,159 --> 00:04:17,639 focused on the content of platforms and the focus of what's going on from the 53 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:23,720 user experience. This is actually about the conduct of the entity, specifically how 54 00:04:23,759 --> 00:04:29,160 they are beholden to a foreign own power as opposed to other companies which honestly 55 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:34,240 do not have the same requirements to hand over data to China or send that 56 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:39,480 information to the CCP. And so one of the things that's been happening recently 57 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:43,120 is there's been efforts to look at privacy and anti trust in Section two thirty, 58 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:46,839 but a lot of them have been held up because people in most sides 59 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:49,160 of the aisle feel that TikTok should we address first, and so looking at 60 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:54,480 TikTok, which I think is a separate issue from larger big tech concerns, 61 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:59,639 kind of allows us to hit that lower fruit and then look at these larger 62 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:02,920 kind of your questions about the holistic future of the Internet. It's hard to 63 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:09,680 keep some of the TikTok bills and plans, like different plans straight, because 64 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:15,720 there was one particular bill that was just atrociously bad, sort of like big 65 00:05:15,879 --> 00:05:18,480 power grab from the national security state, it seemed like, at least based 66 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:23,000 on the senators who are involved in introducing it. So, Nathan, could 67 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:26,800 you walk ins through like the various attempts like what has been tried when it 68 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:30,920 comes to regulating TikTok, and how they sort of compare and contrast and whether 69 00:05:30,959 --> 00:05:35,800 this particular solution, in your opinion, is a good one, because they 70 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:38,800 know a lot of people are concerned about that too. There are a lot 71 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:42,040 of people in the sort of right now, at least on the right. 72 00:05:42,079 --> 00:05:45,920 It seems like people are going into the anti anti TikTok camp, but they're 73 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:47,519 like, I don't like TikTok, I just also don't like the solution, 74 00:05:47,959 --> 00:05:54,199 and just what are the sort of pros and cons of the different approaches that 75 00:05:54,199 --> 00:05:59,639 have been tried. Yeah, So the main one that got a lot of 76 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,639 the ten was within the past few years was a bill called the Restrict Act. 77 00:06:02,759 --> 00:06:09,959 This is a bill introduced by a Senator Warner and Senator Thun bipartisan, 78 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:15,279 but to your point, it really did expand overarching kind of powers of the 79 00:06:15,319 --> 00:06:20,240 administration in a way that honestly went far beyond TikTok and far beyond kind of 80 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:27,439 the question at hand about their relationships with CCP, and could allow the government 81 00:06:27,439 --> 00:06:30,480 to kind of use these powers in ways that I don't think would be helpful 82 00:06:30,519 --> 00:06:34,600 for our economy and helpful for actually security as well or the free expression of 83 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:40,839 Americans. This is much more tailored in a way that specifically looks at the 84 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:46,120 conduct of these companies, specifically TikTok, and how they are being uniquely used 85 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:51,920 by the People's Republic of China in a way that is really detrimental to the 86 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:57,160 US. And so because that tailored approach, because it's limited in its scope 87 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:00,279 and authorities, and honestly the definitions are really thought out that way focus on 88 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:05,720 foreign owned, not foreign owned, but foreign adversary owned. So that just 89 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:11,160 applies to four nations. So if you are a tech company that is run 90 00:07:11,639 --> 00:07:15,199 at the behest of China, Iran, North Korea, or Russia, you're 91 00:07:15,199 --> 00:07:18,360 going to get caught up in this type of this type of framework. But 92 00:07:18,439 --> 00:07:23,480 if you're Spotify, which is based in Sweden, or if you're Chrysler which 93 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:27,959 has foreign entity, or Firestone or ABM Bev, you know you're not going 94 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,680 to be caught up in the same dragnet. And I think that's the that 95 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:36,519 that that that tailored approach allows this, I think to get around some concerns 96 00:07:36,519 --> 00:07:42,560 that people may have and actually help it strengthen its case in the courts and 97 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:46,399 also the court of public companion. In Capitol Hill, you've got some Senators 98 00:07:46,439 --> 00:07:48,879 that are pushing back against the targeted aspect of that of the House bill. 99 00:07:48,959 --> 00:07:55,759 You've got Dan Well, who's a share shairwoman of the Senate Commerce who's kind 100 00:07:55,759 --> 00:08:01,519 of got her own version of a bill a target tiktab or TikTok. You've 101 00:08:01,519 --> 00:08:07,920 got Republican Young coming out and saying he doesn't like that it's so targeted at 102 00:08:07,959 --> 00:08:13,160 TikTok and one wants to have something that's broader. Why is the House bill 103 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:18,120 the best of these? And if so, why, Yeah, for you 104 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:20,600 answer that, I think we all just need to pause and take a moment 105 00:08:20,639 --> 00:08:24,639 to appreciate that. Christopher Bedford just referred to TikTok as tic tac. I 106 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:31,600 heard it. I heard it. That was pretty good. Yeah, I'm 107 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:35,159 a boomer. He's on his iPad pro talking about the damn tick tack. 108 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:41,600 Embrace it, Chris, you know it comes for us all. You know. 109 00:08:41,639 --> 00:08:45,919 A couple of thoughts. One is I think Senator Cantwell's bill is written 110 00:08:45,919 --> 00:08:50,440 in a way that specifically looks at activities. But you know, the problem 111 00:08:50,519 --> 00:08:54,600 is that TikTok has shown now I have Tiktak in my head. Geez, 112 00:08:54,799 --> 00:08:58,360 Chris, thank you. TikTok has shown that they will, you know, 113 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,879 basically metamorphosize as they as they can to try to like, you know, 114 00:09:03,919 --> 00:09:07,799 fit into any situation. So like whether it's Project Texas, which they claimed 115 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:13,279 would keep data from China which proved to be false, actually was through Project 116 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:18,200 Texas that they were able to spy on American journalists and and and catch key 117 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:22,200 strokes of American individuals and all sorts of data, So it didn't really protect 118 00:09:22,399 --> 00:09:26,720 the American data from the Chinese. So if it was first off that point, 119 00:09:26,799 --> 00:09:31,320 But then second point is this has real momentum. This bill compared to 120 00:09:31,399 --> 00:09:33,480 can't well as approach. And so I think that that that that's something that's 121 00:09:33,519 --> 00:09:37,159 worth noting to your point about the Bill of a tainder question. So the 122 00:09:37,519 --> 00:09:43,480 question is like whether because it names TikTok, would that be a problem and 123 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:48,720 and and the fact is that like as written, this fits into other previously 124 00:09:48,759 --> 00:09:52,600 written language that that would allow the US to to to specifically name an entity 125 00:09:52,799 --> 00:09:58,240 that is actually breaking our laws. The Bill of Attainder uh does not not 126 00:09:58,279 --> 00:10:03,559 does not preclude, you know, prohibitions on government agencies regarding to purchasing telecom 127 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:09,240 equipment. For example, we banned Huawei ZT and China Telecom just a few 128 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:13,120 years ago naming those entities, and they were still allowed under the court. 129 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:18,080 So you know, a recent district court held that wah wahweih might maybe specify 130 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:22,120 in the law. Congress's actions burdening Huawei were lawful because it was not denying 131 00:10:22,159 --> 00:10:26,799 Huawei a trial for past offenses. So the bill attainder question is about previous 132 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:31,879 past offenses and their ability to kind of litigate that. But this targeted approach 133 00:10:31,919 --> 00:10:35,960 actually would allow of that process to proceed and should hold up in the courts 134 00:10:39,919 --> 00:10:45,440 role where the stock market has seen some unprecedented fluctuations just over the last several 135 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:50,000 years. Silver, though has historically been considered a safe haven asset during times 136 00:10:50,039 --> 00:10:54,000 of market volatility. When that uncertainty rises, investors often turn into precious metals 137 00:10:54,080 --> 00:11:01,559 like silver to preserve wealth and hedge against economic instability. Owning physical silver coins 138 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:05,320 also just provides you with a tangible asset that you can actually hold in your 139 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:09,879 hand. What a thought. In times of economic uncertainty, having that tangible 140 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:13,480 asset can provide a sense of security and peace of mind. Now, CSN 141 00:11:13,519 --> 00:11:20,720 Mint has been providing certified US mint collectible coins and precious metals for over twenty 142 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:24,240 years, and they're one of the most trusted names in numismatics. You can 143 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:31,559 explore CSN Mint's extensive catalog of bullion bars, coins and numismatic collectibles. Whether 144 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:35,720 you're a seasoned investor or a passionate collector, you'll find a diverse range of 145 00:11:35,759 --> 00:11:39,600 products to suit your own needs and your own preferences. So At csn mint, 146 00:11:39,639 --> 00:11:43,879 trust is paramount rest assured that every product you purchased includes the original certificate 147 00:11:43,879 --> 00:11:50,679 of authenticity or is certified and graded by a third party grader to ensure origin 148 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,840 and purity. With CSN mint, you can build your collection with confidence, 149 00:11:56,240 --> 00:12:00,519 experience world class customer service and support. With CSN mint, their team of 150 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:05,360 knowledgeable professionals is here to assist you every step of the way, from product 151 00:12:05,399 --> 00:12:09,360 selection all the way to order fulfillment and beyond. So if you're going to 152 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:13,720 collect something, it might as well be money. Go to csnmnt dot com, 153 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:18,480 slash Federalist and use promo code Federalist at checkout to get a free silver 154 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:22,720 American Eagle over thirty dollars in value with your purchase of seventy five dollars or 155 00:12:22,799 --> 00:12:28,960 more. I don't know what you make of this criticism. Is it a 156 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:35,080 sort of Is there a criticism that basically one of the only companies that would 157 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:41,559 be in a position to take TikTok over would be Facebook or another huge tech 158 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:45,879 giant that has many problems of his own. Is it possible that there's cronyism 159 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:48,480 behind the scenes of this, or is this you know, maybe this is 160 00:12:48,519 --> 00:12:52,080 the only approach that makes any sense or is possible at all. I think 161 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:58,600 the concern about Facebook being the number one competitor is an earnest one. I 162 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:03,480 think it fits into an overall conversation that many are having about anti competition concerns 163 00:13:03,519 --> 00:13:09,240 in the tech space and whether there's one or two or three large players who 164 00:13:09,279 --> 00:13:11,840 are kind of dictating the terms of the conversation. And also, I think 165 00:13:11,879 --> 00:13:15,799 that's actually why a lot of people were excited about the concept of TikTok, 166 00:13:15,879 --> 00:13:20,120 because it was an alternative to Instagram, it was an alternative to YouTube shorts. 167 00:13:20,279 --> 00:13:26,399 I understand that thinking however, TikTok can exist apart from ByteDance. And 168 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:28,879 the other point is that there are some other players in this space who could 169 00:13:28,919 --> 00:13:33,480 participate in the conversation in a way that you know, buying up TikTok if 170 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:37,759 it was allowed to be divested by the CCP. That's the big question with 171 00:13:37,879 --> 00:13:41,120 the CCP, and allow it to divest. But if they did, you 172 00:13:41,159 --> 00:13:43,799 know, there's entities like Spotify, There's entities like Elon Musk who have been 173 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:48,120 interested in this activision. Microsoft has showed an interest in this, so, 174 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:52,639 like you know, I think there's reasons to wonder about what the future of 175 00:13:52,639 --> 00:13:54,639 competition could look like. But also I think this creates an opportunity for new 176 00:13:54,759 --> 00:14:00,440 entrants into the market place that could actually make it even a more robust area 177 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,399 of competition. One more point on that I would say is if you have 178 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:07,919 a Chinese owned entity, I'm not sure how large you could actually get in 179 00:14:07,919 --> 00:14:09,519 the US market share. The reality is, I think there's going to be 180 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:15,120 a cap whether it's TEAMU trying to compete with Amazon or whether it's TikTok trying 181 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:18,080 to compete with other American entities. At some point there's going to be further 182 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:22,960 in for their scrutiny about what is going on between this entity in the Chinese 183 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:26,879 government, And so in some ways, I think actually getting away from TikTok, 184 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:31,120 getting TikTok away from bytdance would actually allow it to be more competitive going 185 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:35,960 into the future. Why can't the government use existing statutes to kind of plays 186 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:41,440 this. There are pretty strict rules with the FCC would step in on foreign 187 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:52,240 ownership of newspapers cable that we need in existing existing structures. Yeah, I 188 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:56,279 think that's I think that's a fair question. So I'll just put it back 189 00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:01,159 with the FCC whenever they banned Huawei, you know, we banned Whahwei. 190 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:03,720 But then also we had Congress work on rip and replace. So basically, 191 00:15:03,759 --> 00:15:09,720 Huawei are our telecommunications networks that were owned by the Chinese government and was a 192 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:13,480 big competitor in telecom space, and the FCC went after it, and when 193 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:18,039 they did so, Congress also stepped in and established a program called the Rip 194 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,559 and Replaced program that basically said, if you you know, ripped out this 195 00:15:20,679 --> 00:15:26,480 Whiawei infrastructure, We're going to replace it. I think there needs to be 196 00:15:26,559 --> 00:15:30,639 a component of Congress involved in this. This is not a federal agency power 197 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:33,279 graph. This is something that the American people need to be part of, 198 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:37,200 part of that conversation. It's not sufficient. I don't think through just the 199 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:43,200 cefists or through commerce theot to to take this step, but to actually involve 200 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:48,159 Congress to also establish a pattern looking at potential, you know, new social 201 00:15:48,159 --> 00:15:52,879 media entities or new ways in which foreign adversaries could could affect our, whether 202 00:15:52,919 --> 00:15:58,200 it's our the integrity of our data, or whether it's uh, you know, 203 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:00,600 propaganda like TikTok has owned in the past couple of years. Well, 204 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:04,639 that's a good opportunity actually to sort of just take a step back and go 205 00:16:04,679 --> 00:16:11,000 to the thirty thousand foot view, because maybe take thirty thousand steps back because 206 00:16:11,639 --> 00:16:15,960 we haven't quite you're sort of taking for granted here because we cover TikTok on 207 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:18,600 this podcast all the time, and Nathan, you work on this issue so 208 00:16:18,679 --> 00:16:22,720 closely that TikTok is obviously a really bad thing, and it is. It's 209 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:27,399 really bad in a number of different ways. But right now it's also sort 210 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:37,559 of like Pravda owning NBC News in nineteen seventy the sort of national security implications 211 00:16:37,679 --> 00:16:41,480 of TikTok. The situation there is unique. There really is no precedent for 212 00:16:41,519 --> 00:16:45,159 what's happening with it. But there's so much ground to cover when it comes 213 00:16:45,159 --> 00:16:49,799 to why TikTok is bad. We learn more from different reporting and from children's 214 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:55,279 experiences, people's experiences all of the time. A lot of people saw what 215 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:57,960 was happening after October seventh on TikTok, and that sort of was an eye 216 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:03,559 open air, an eye opener for many parents and educators. So, Nathan, 217 00:17:03,079 --> 00:17:07,119 what's your sort of description of the many evils of TikTok? You know, 218 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:14,160 how do you explain why this product is so bad that actually Congress needs 219 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:19,319 to take steps to actively have it divested, have have it divested from the 220 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:26,200 CCP byte Dance and the Beijing based operation. Yeah, it's it's a fair 221 00:17:26,279 --> 00:17:27,839 question to be like, hey, what are the facts, what what's what's 222 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:32,559 what's going on here? And I think there's a litany of examples of ways 223 00:17:32,599 --> 00:17:37,960 that uh TikTok has shown that it's uniquely bad specifically, and it's in its 224 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:41,240 ability to be used as a as a weapon of espionage against the United States 225 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:45,119 and it's and its citizens. I would start out with the fact that every 226 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:51,559 step of the way, TikTok has been less than forthcoming to Congress or the 227 00:17:51,839 --> 00:17:56,559 US government about questions relating to what they do with their data. For example, 228 00:17:56,799 --> 00:18:00,640 they once testified that no, they would never send data to China, 229 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:06,880 and then it becomes clear through whistleblowers reporting and through various great reporting by some 230 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:11,079 good journalists that no, indeed they are sharing data back to China. The 231 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:18,599 other question is like how TikTok data has been used to catch up Hong Kong 232 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:22,400 protesters in ways that were really problematic. As the other example I could use 233 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:29,519 earlier is they were literally spying on American journalists through TikTok, looking at geolocation 234 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:34,440 data, looking at ways in which they were using the app to use their 235 00:18:34,519 --> 00:18:40,559 keystrokes and other data to basically give a picture of where who these reporters were 236 00:18:40,559 --> 00:18:44,200 talking to. So there was a forest reporter I believe who is working with 237 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:48,839 a whistleblower from TikTok, and they used this geo location data to track that 238 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:52,720 journalist so that they could, you know, try to punish them or try 239 00:18:52,759 --> 00:18:56,119 to keep them away from the whistle blower. You know, that's just the 240 00:18:56,160 --> 00:19:00,240 type of power that they have that should not be in the hands of a 241 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:07,200 foreign adversary. There's other examples of a way that they can use your voice 242 00:19:07,519 --> 00:19:12,880 or your of facial recognition in a way that stored and could be used by 243 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:18,160 the Chinese government down the road. We also have a recent history, recent 244 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:22,359 revelations from od and I, the Office the Director of National Intelligence, of 245 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:30,000 unique ways in which TikTok was trying to spread direct misinformation relating to the election. 246 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:33,880 Now, we've heard a lot about election misinformation over the past several years, 247 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:36,599 one way or the other, but this is a whole new threat, 248 00:19:36,599 --> 00:19:40,119 a direct way in which China is trying to affect our elections and in a 249 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:44,240 way that it's unclear whether it would be towards one side or of the isle 250 00:19:44,319 --> 00:19:47,720 or other. And if we're looking at twenty twenty two, twenty twenty four, 251 00:19:47,759 --> 00:19:49,519 and twenty twenty six going forward, we need to do, you know, 252 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:55,839 bipartisan measures to mitigate those concerns, and you know, the way of 253 00:19:56,160 --> 00:20:02,000 mobilizing young Americans through TikTok is I think pretty concerned. We saw last week 254 00:20:02,559 --> 00:20:06,640 TikTok literally sent a push notification to all of it's one hundred and seventy million 255 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:10,680 users that they couldn't use the app until they called their member of Congress. 256 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:15,400 To opt out of that push notification was very, very difficult. Capitol Hill 257 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:21,119 was flooded, flooded with thousands of phone calls from young people who seem to 258 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:25,039 be depressed and have mental issues. There's a number of reporting both from Spectator 259 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:30,799 Politico Onnaxios that many of these callers threatened self harm and threaten assassination of their 260 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:37,079 representatives if they banned TikTok and just spoke to sort of the hyperbole and the 261 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:41,519 tantrums that these activists were having and you can't help but think where these individuals 262 00:20:41,519 --> 00:20:47,079 polluted, their minds polluted by the propaganda they're seeing through the algorithms of TikTok. 263 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:55,000 Today's episode is brought to you by surf Shark. Surf Shark is a 264 00:20:55,039 --> 00:21:00,039 cybersecurity product that improves your online privacy and protects you from hacker how well, 265 00:21:00,079 --> 00:21:06,000 their main product, VPN, basically acts as a shield and hides your IP 266 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:10,519 address, so everything you do online actually stays private, whether it's reading the 267 00:21:10,599 --> 00:21:14,640 news, maybe googling some dodgy info, which as a journalist you have to 268 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:18,640 do all the time, streaming some shows, listening to podcasts, or honestly 269 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:22,880 anything else. Plus, if you use a VPN, you can virtually travel 270 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,440 the world from the comfort of your own home, and surf Shark gives you 271 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:30,839 over one hundred countries to choose from. Once you change your virtual location, 272 00:21:30,079 --> 00:21:34,039 you'll be able to bypass censorship and restrictions. You can find your favorites on 273 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:40,400 Netflix or Hulu or other streaming services, and even access new libraries to watch 274 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:44,079 even more content. So maybe you can't see a YouTube video because of your 275 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:48,279 location, just use surf Shark VPN. Maybe you can't access that one website 276 00:21:48,319 --> 00:21:53,960 to buy let's say limited edition sneakers, use surf Shark VPN. Try surf 277 00:21:55,000 --> 00:22:00,359 Shark today totally risk free with a thirty day money back guarantee. Gets serf 278 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:07,799 Shark VPN at surf Shark dot deals slash Federalist enter promo code Federalist for three 279 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:11,079 extra months for free. And you heard me right, that's three extra months 280 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:19,279 for free. So serf Shark dot deals slash Federalist. That's one thing I 281 00:22:19,279 --> 00:22:23,599 feel like it's been overlooked. And I understand that sometimes when you have to 282 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:32,440 move Congress, there are certain arguments that will ring stronger Congress and national security 283 00:22:32,759 --> 00:22:36,759 argument often seems to ring a little louder. But the Chinese real I think 284 00:22:36,759 --> 00:22:38,880 one of the real problems with TikTok because the Chinese have a massive cultural weapon 285 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:45,279 that targets American youth, feeds the sloping garbage, sprinkles in propaganda, addicts 286 00:22:45,319 --> 00:22:49,720 them, and can be used to activate them when needed. And you know 287 00:22:49,799 --> 00:22:56,640 that's why you said you've seen TikTok be banned in other countries that recognize China's 288 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,799 role. I mean, where does that play in? Where does understanding that 289 00:23:00,839 --> 00:23:04,160 and and if you can give us all a background in other countries' actions against 290 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:08,279 TikTok and their own in their own domestics. Yeah, so, first off, 291 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:14,960 it is illegal for for federal employees to be using TikTok on their government 292 00:23:15,519 --> 00:23:18,200 phones. This is a big step taken over the past couple of years, 293 00:23:18,519 --> 00:23:22,279 UH that that is to basically recognize that, you know, UH government employees 294 00:23:22,599 --> 00:23:27,920 information is sensitive and could be far more vulnerable on government phones and obviously with 295 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:33,319 other data on those phones could even be more problematic. We've also seen different 296 00:23:33,319 --> 00:23:38,000 states like Montana ass a ban on TikTok and the states that's currently being fought 297 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,759 in the courts right now, but also kind of speaks to the fact that 298 00:23:41,759 --> 00:23:45,440 there are states who really want to take action on this and represent their people 299 00:23:45,039 --> 00:23:51,880 and engaging in this conversation. Europe Europe is actually also has a ban on 300 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:56,680 federal UH devices being used with TikTok, and they are also considering their own 301 00:23:56,759 --> 00:24:03,359 version of a divestit or proposal that that that honestly could in some ways that 302 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,079 look like ours. It could look a little different because you know, the 303 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:10,519 Europeans do things a little differently over there. But that's currently a conversation of 304 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:14,720 note, I would also point out that like the rest of the Europe stronger 305 00:24:14,759 --> 00:24:19,119 on China than America, that's not great. They're usually kind of kind of 306 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:23,039 weak about cutting off foreign adversaries when there's an economic benefit to them. To 307 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:27,079 be fair, I would actually say that Europe has actually changed their approach to 308 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,960 being far more hawkish on China because of the leadership of President Trump and his 309 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:36,440 administration. And I'm not just saying that, uh just just just just for 310 00:24:36,559 --> 00:24:41,240 political points, but the reality is that Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, a 311 00:24:41,279 --> 00:24:45,799 former SEC chairman a GPI, my former boss, they worked really close to 312 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:49,839 with the administration to make it clear to the Europeans that like their internet infrastructure 313 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:56,400 should not be infested with Chinese products. In fact, Europe has actually taken 314 00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:03,480 steps to unwind their relationships with Huawei and ZT and China Telecom, mainly because 315 00:25:03,519 --> 00:25:07,039 of what we were doing four or five years ago. Explained to them that 316 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:08,160 this is a problem. And you know, I got to actually go over 317 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,640 to Europe and be part of those conversations and be part of those efforts to 318 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:18,759 help mitigate the threats of China, Chinese tech and so it's a growing concern. 319 00:25:18,759 --> 00:25:22,960 It's also one that more people across the world are very much aware of. 320 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:26,680 In fact, if you look at you know, Australia and other people 321 00:25:26,759 --> 00:25:30,839 other entities in the Southern Pacific, they're also concerned about TikTok, and not 322 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:37,880 just TikTok, but other examples of Chinese vulnerable technology right right, And TikTok 323 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:45,519 is understandably freaking out about this. Nathan, can you talk to us a 324 00:25:45,559 --> 00:25:49,319 little because so again, the CEO of TikTok is about to testify again today, 325 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,079 so by the time this goes up, that may have already started. 326 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:56,880 We've seen him testify before and it's been bad. I mean, I think 327 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,799 it's been bad because the bottom line is, Nathan, and as you've pointed 328 00:26:00,799 --> 00:26:06,519 out, there is no way to divest from the CCP, there is no 329 00:26:06,599 --> 00:26:11,400 way for byte Dance unless it fully gets rid of TikTok. There's no way 330 00:26:11,599 --> 00:26:17,039 because through Chinese law, the government will always have access to TikTok data. 331 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:21,480 And by the way, that's the point, so there's absolutely no workarounds so 332 00:26:21,519 --> 00:26:25,799 they can spend literal billions on Project Texas. It does not make a difference. 333 00:26:25,839 --> 00:26:30,400 It's a public relations campaign, and you know, it's there's some things 334 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,640 that it's like, it's better than the alternative. If it's Project Texas, 335 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,279 I guess it's more hoops that the CCP has to jump through. But you 336 00:26:37,279 --> 00:26:40,720 know, TikTok has, like many or I'm sorry I should say Byte Dance, 337 00:26:40,759 --> 00:26:47,000 Byte Dance has, like many Chinese companies, an active CCP Chinese Communist 338 00:26:47,079 --> 00:26:52,519 Party group in its halls. In the company, there's a basically there's a 339 00:26:52,559 --> 00:26:56,079 Byte Dance Communist Party. Uh, what's the branch? I guess that's probably 340 00:26:56,079 --> 00:27:00,079 the chapter however you want to put it not uncommon if you're in China, 341 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,680 but there are people who work for Chinese media. Forbes has reported this who 342 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:08,319 are also literally working in the Bye Dance headquarters. So you can Project Texas 343 00:27:08,319 --> 00:27:14,359 all you want, but the problem still remains. But how is TikTok Do 344 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:18,640 you expect Nathan this time around? Now that the threat feels as serious as 345 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:22,119 it ever has, how are they responding to all of this? Yeah, 346 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:26,079 so it's a full court press, and I don't know either the CEO is 347 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:32,519 testifying or just on the hill doing meetings with with with offices trying to get 348 00:27:32,559 --> 00:27:36,440 meetings to try to like, you know, make his case, but you 349 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:40,079 know, we can double check that. But yeah, he's on the hill 350 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:42,319 today, and he also like not just him, but like a lot of 351 00:27:42,839 --> 00:27:47,480 his lobbyist, paid lobbyists are on the hill. His top lobbyist, Michael 352 00:27:47,519 --> 00:27:52,759 Beckerman, was a number of radio hits or interview hits over the past couple 353 00:27:52,759 --> 00:27:59,480 of days. In fact, he didn't apologize for the young activists who called 354 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,519 threatening self arm. In fact, he actually thought it was problematic that members 355 00:28:03,519 --> 00:28:07,680 of Congress who are upsets that these people work quote unquote exercising their first amendments. 356 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:12,440 So like it's okay for those kids to call in and threaten suicide, 357 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:17,279 but it's not okay for members of Congress to be turned off by that type 358 00:28:17,279 --> 00:28:22,440 of behavior or to recommend that those individuals called nine to eight the suicide hotline, 359 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,440 which is what they should be doing instead of calling Congress. But you 360 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:27,839 know, the fact is that they have a whole you know, team of 361 00:28:27,839 --> 00:28:30,799 lobbyists, both on the left and the right, trying to get meetings on 362 00:28:30,839 --> 00:28:34,839 the Hill. And I think to your point also about Project Texas, something 363 00:28:34,839 --> 00:28:41,119 I get kind of fed up with is is sure it looks like it's an 364 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,559 effort to protect your data, but honestly, it's a front. It's no 365 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:52,279 different than the Sopranos setting up a trash company to cover their misdeeds. Let's 366 00:28:52,319 --> 00:28:56,839 just be real here, Project Texas is Windo addressing to protect them from further 367 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,759 scrutiny. It's not actually about protecting data. And the reporting shows that and 368 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:06,559 more. If TikTok and byt aancer is more honest with the American people in 369 00:29:06,599 --> 00:29:08,640 the public, they would also know that too. So, you know, 370 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,440 I just you know, I just want to point out that I have we'll 371 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:17,039 a consternation with that definition. But also, to be fair, it's not 372 00:29:17,119 --> 00:29:21,240 just people on TikTok's payroll. It's people who are you know, by proxy 373 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:25,400 on TikTok's payroll or who directly benefit from TikTok, who are going on their 374 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:30,960 own in a way that advocating for this particular position in favor of TikTok that 375 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:37,359 I just think is disingenuous and really honestly is about enriching certain individuals and not 376 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:45,680 protecting American American data. How much do you spend from your paycheck in about 377 00:29:45,759 --> 00:29:48,640 one hundred days the watched out on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every 378 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,480 day Chris helps unpack the connection between politics and the economy and how it affects 379 00:29:52,519 --> 00:29:57,079 your wallet. The federal government is on pace to spend over one trillion dollars 380 00:29:57,119 --> 00:30:03,279 per every one hundred days. Our Speaker Johnson and congressional Republicans doing anything about 381 00:30:03,319 --> 00:30:06,200 it. Enough is enough. Whether it's happening in DC or down on Wall 382 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,119 Street, it's affecting you financially. Be informed. Check out the Watchout on 383 00:30:08,119 --> 00:30:11,480 Wall Street podcast with Chris Mrkowski on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get 384 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:18,160 your podcasts. Yes, and that was a really helpful point, Nathan, 385 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:22,319 Sorry, Chris, just quickly. He's the TikTok CEO is meeting with senators 386 00:30:22,319 --> 00:30:26,559 today. It's not a formal testimony, so thank you for the correction. 387 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,519 No, that's fair. That's fair. So, speaking of people getting rich, 388 00:30:30,799 --> 00:30:37,000 tell us about Jeffrey Yass. He's a right wing as far as I 389 00:30:37,039 --> 00:30:44,599 know, or libertarian, pianthropists, technologists. I one time met him at 390 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:51,079 a CATO dinner in New York City where he was involved years ago. I 391 00:30:51,119 --> 00:30:56,599 think he's still involved with CATO. Yeah, he didn't get involved whatever project. 392 00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:00,920 I was there to picturemon I remember that, but I heard of him, 393 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,759 and he's popping up everywhere. He seems to be moving Donald Trump. 394 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,400 He seems to be moving parts of the GOP. He seems to be he 395 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:15,680 seems to be everywhere that that opposition to this bill is yeah, and I 396 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,480 should be clear. I mean, you know, I you know, look, 397 00:31:18,519 --> 00:31:21,359 there there are a lot of great mega donors. There are a lot 398 00:31:21,359 --> 00:31:26,240 of great Republicans who have money who like to use it to engage in different 399 00:31:26,279 --> 00:31:30,680 activities and focus on educational campaigns and public policy initiatives, and so you know, 400 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,119 I don't follow anyone from being engaged in that. In fact, from 401 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,799 what I understand, he's very much involved in the school choice movement and trying 402 00:31:36,799 --> 00:31:40,400 to help young teens and kids, you know, have better educational opportunities, 403 00:31:40,559 --> 00:31:44,000 which I think is actually why I get finance so ironic that he's pushing an 404 00:31:44,079 --> 00:31:47,599 app and has invested thirty three billion dollars into an app that's about, you 405 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:52,559 know, undermining the sanctity and privacy of young underage children across the country. 406 00:31:52,559 --> 00:31:55,960 You know, the fact is that you know, he has about ten to 407 00:31:55,960 --> 00:32:01,680 fifteen percent ownership stake in the in the large TikTok uh behemoth and is you 408 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:07,559 know, leveraging his his personal interests to convince a number of individuals, both 409 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:13,359 high level politicians and third party organizations desperate for cash to take his position on 410 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:15,359 this. And what kills me about it is that it's not part of some 411 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:19,559 like holistic worlds view of the Internet. It's not some part of some like 412 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,200 you know, philosophical orientation. A lot of these groups are engaging on a 413 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:27,519 lot of these people are tough on China. They claim to care about protecting 414 00:32:27,519 --> 00:32:30,359 our data, yet on this specific issue, you know, some organizations like 415 00:32:30,359 --> 00:32:32,759 you know, I'm going to name out Club for Growth, have really taken 416 00:32:32,799 --> 00:32:37,519 a position or honestly, vivek Ramashwami, who took a pretty large check from 417 00:32:37,599 --> 00:32:40,240 him as well, are now like you know, trying to figure out a 418 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:46,240 way to square the circle, to take the position that TikTok is bad and 419 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:51,279 should not be banned. But we should look at all these other you know, 420 00:32:51,319 --> 00:32:54,359 examples of Chinese threatning through our nation and we should we should look at 421 00:32:54,400 --> 00:33:00,960 that. So it's been really honestly hard to watch these yas men come together 422 00:33:00,039 --> 00:33:02,960 and kind of take this position. You know, Look, I mean there's 423 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,559 only one. There's only one. Yeah, ask man out there, and 424 00:33:06,599 --> 00:33:08,440 that's George and that's a Cramer. You know, we don't need more of 425 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:17,079 them running on Capitol Hill. Yeah, so Club for Growth and Trump Vivicara 426 00:33:17,119 --> 00:33:22,359 Maswami. I think Politico reported that Kellyan Conway does work for Club for Growth 427 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:27,079 and uh does work on this issue for Club for Growth. Is that right, 428 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,160 Nathan. It's that's the way that it worked, that it was through 429 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,559 the club. Yeah, this is this is what's fascinating is that if you 430 00:33:32,599 --> 00:33:37,119 are on the board of an organization, you don't have to disclose your you 431 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,559 know, efforts to try to tell people who work under the organization that you're 432 00:33:39,599 --> 00:33:43,720 a board of what they do. There's no far hour requirement, there's no 433 00:33:43,839 --> 00:33:46,359 nine nineties, there's no you know, financial disclosures we have to give. 434 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:50,640 If you if you're the godfather running an organization, you just have to flick 435 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:52,079 your finger. You have to just tell them go ahead and do this, 436 00:33:52,119 --> 00:33:55,079 and they do it. That's that. That's how it can work, especially 437 00:33:55,119 --> 00:33:59,599 whenever you're worth billions upon billions of dollars. One thing I would one thing 438 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,000 I would flag on this is is and I just want to make a separation 439 00:34:02,079 --> 00:34:06,359 about President Trump's comments if I Yeah, that's actually what I was going to 440 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:07,719 ask about. Okay, great, Maybe do you want to ask the question 441 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:09,719 because and you can kind of get into kind of what the tweet was and 442 00:34:10,079 --> 00:34:13,559 kind of go from there. Basically, I was just going to say it 443 00:34:13,599 --> 00:34:17,119 was do you think it's specifically Yas that got to Donald Trump or because it 444 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:22,000 was a change from his position when he was president to how he kind of 445 00:34:22,039 --> 00:34:28,320 explained it in Squawkbox and the Squawkbox interview yesterday and with a social post. 446 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:32,360 So what kind of explains that? Yeah? I think I think President Trump 447 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:37,199 and it actually was actually kind of helpful on his Squawkbox interview where he explained 448 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,920 it, like he has major concerns about the whole ecosystem of the Internet. 449 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:45,719 He's concerned about the competition question that that Chris alluded to earlier, He's concerned 450 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:50,280 about, you know, other ways to protect American data, et cetera. 451 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:52,599 And so you know, I see the banning TikTok as a step in the 452 00:34:52,679 --> 00:34:58,519 right direction to fulfill what he wanted long term. I don't know what the 453 00:34:58,519 --> 00:35:02,039 connection between Yass and him is. Honestly, I think the president, the 454 00:35:02,079 --> 00:35:07,800 former president, and hopefully a future president as well. Can Can Can you 455 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:09,559 know, has a lot a lot on his play and focus on a holistic 456 00:35:09,639 --> 00:35:15,440 vision for kind of restoring you know, American greatness, and so I think 457 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:19,719 what his leadership on the TikTok issue in general kind of moved it forward. 458 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,239 I think it's fair to have questions about the legislation, and I look forward 459 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:25,400 to further people kind of educating and sharing what's going on in that space. 460 00:35:25,599 --> 00:35:29,000 Because one of the things he pointed out was that it was a lobbyist who 461 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,239 stopped him last time, and the reality is that we're doing our best to 462 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:35,480 mitigate those same lobbyists now. And so, you know, I just look 463 00:35:35,519 --> 00:35:39,119 forward to that conversation continuing and and you know, I look forward to seeing 464 00:35:39,599 --> 00:35:43,920 more of the effort to kind of combat China from him going forward. One 465 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,039 point I would say is I am a little frustrated by Kelly and Conway's comment 466 00:35:47,159 --> 00:35:51,119 initiatives recently, you know, being a favorite TikTok. I mean, she 467 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:53,920 was a spokesperson for Trump when he went after TikTok in twenty twenty. So 468 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:58,920 to see that flip is very fascinating to basically undermine your previous work. And 469 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,360 then also you know, honestly, we know what happened with her family. 470 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:05,639 We know what's happened with her family, daughter on TikTok, herself who had 471 00:36:05,639 --> 00:36:07,760 a lot of issues, and it was having bullying issues and being attacked by 472 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:13,239 Taylor Wrenz on Twitter on TikTok and things like that, and so to see, 473 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,840 you know, those personal issues take a side because you know she wants 474 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:22,039 to advocate now for TikTok is concerning, and I hope people ask questions. 475 00:36:22,079 --> 00:36:24,320 I know she's doing a political event today about mental health and healthcare, and 476 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:28,719 I'm kind of curious what she thinks about the mental health implication to TikTok. 477 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:35,880 Where do you think this goes in the US Senate? What I mean two 478 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,519 weeks ago, I was pretty bearished that you were going to see really any 479 00:36:38,559 --> 00:36:43,400 action from Capitol Hill on big tech, and then there was a sudden flory 480 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,679 of activity. But it looks like, I mean, the Senate is certainly 481 00:36:46,679 --> 00:36:50,840 not aligned. Yet they like to do their own thing. Generally. They 482 00:36:51,079 --> 00:36:52,880 one of their favorite things to do is tell the House to take a hike. 483 00:36:54,159 --> 00:36:58,960 What are you bush bearish? What do you think the future is here. 484 00:37:00,199 --> 00:37:04,719 I mean, I'm more I think there's a higher probability of this passing 485 00:37:05,519 --> 00:37:07,320 than my philadelphy atilities way in the World Series this year, And I'm spending 486 00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:12,800 a lot of money on my gambling on the affillies. So that's how I'm 487 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,559 feeling right now. Look, I mean, we did not expect to get 488 00:37:15,599 --> 00:37:21,360 a vote till the end of March in the House. When I originally talked 489 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:22,679 to the House leadership, they said, look, maybe by the end of 490 00:37:22,679 --> 00:37:27,000 this work period, before before Easter, we can get this pass. And 491 00:37:27,039 --> 00:37:31,119 the reality is that within days of introducing it they got a unanimous vote out 492 00:37:31,159 --> 00:37:35,360 of the Energy and Commerce Committee. Now, those fifty members can't agree on 493 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:37,800 anything at all, so the fact that they're able to come together and recognize 494 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:42,039 that this is a real national security threat and this is the right template to 495 00:37:42,079 --> 00:37:45,800 solve that problem was really really encouraging, so encouraging that, you know, 496 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:49,440 Majority Leader Steve Scalice is bring it up for a vote on Wednesday, March 497 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:53,920 thirteenth, depending when this is released, that's tomorrow or today, and it 498 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:59,239 looks like that's going to pass with overwhelming support. If that passes, man, 499 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,159 I think it's can be hard for the Senate to not take a real 500 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:06,480 look at it. And you know, we did see some comments from from 501 00:38:06,519 --> 00:38:08,800 Senator Cantwell and Senator Schumer that said, you know, hey, maybe we 502 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:13,760 should take this slowly and think about it. But we also saw comments from 503 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:19,559 Senator Blackburn, from Senator johny Ernst, from Senator Tom Cotton, from Senator 504 00:38:19,599 --> 00:38:23,320 Mark or Rubio, from Senator Mark Warner, honestly a leading Democrat in this 505 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:28,239 issue, saying hey, let's not let's not allow the perfect to be the 506 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:30,920 enemy the good, and let's actually take a real look at this. And 507 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,800 so I think the real push is going to be getting moderate Democrats in the 508 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,639 Senate to recognize that this is the right path forward. And yes, it 509 00:38:37,639 --> 00:38:40,719 doesn't mean that they have to, you know, take everything the House says 510 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:45,039 and just pass it as is. That's what Senate's for, That's what the 511 00:38:45,039 --> 00:38:50,039 most deliberate, deliberative body is for, to have this conversation, to look 512 00:38:50,079 --> 00:38:52,159 at it and then move forward from there. And so I do look forward 513 00:38:52,199 --> 00:38:55,280 to the Senate Commerce Committee, which is probably going to be who will next 514 00:38:55,519 --> 00:38:59,880 look at it to see what they do. I know Senator Ted Cruz is 515 00:39:00,199 --> 00:39:04,760 very open in his opposition to TikTok and concern with the way TikTok is polluting 516 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:10,719 our minds and being a poison pill example of vespionage and the Chinese. So, 517 00:39:12,039 --> 00:39:14,559 you know, I'm excited to see what it looks like in the Senate, 518 00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:19,960 and I'm pretty encouraged if there's a fan dual option out there, put 519 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,920 a little cash on it. Let's go, Well, maybe it's good in 520 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:27,840 this case that one of Senator Schumer's daughters, I think one works for Meta 521 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,760 and the other works for Amazon. So if Meta wants to take over TikTok, 522 00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:35,760 maybe in this case it's actually this glaring conflict of interest in trek Schumer's 523 00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:42,760 behalf will be helpful. But my last question is just the big, raging 524 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:46,719 debate. This is not an easy question, but I know what my position 525 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:50,599 on it is. I don't want to put words in the mouths of people 526 00:39:50,679 --> 00:39:54,119 like Kellyan or jeff Yas, but I think one of the big arguments we're 527 00:39:54,119 --> 00:40:00,639 now hearing is our homegrown technology companies are poisonous us enough. They're you know, 528 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:10,280 these toxic DARPA cronious projects that are poisoning children's minds and turning Americans on 529 00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:16,079 each other, suppressing speech, engaging in collusion with the government over censorship efforts 530 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:21,480 they are. You know, a lot of people are saying a bigger threat 531 00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:27,559 to the American people than TikTok is, and that opens up a huge can 532 00:40:27,599 --> 00:40:29,880 of worms, I know, And we don't have to, you know, 533 00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:34,239 exhaust the debate here, but if you want to, just Nathan, give 534 00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,360 us your response to that big argument we're hearing more and more of as we're 535 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:42,599 sort of tying a bow on this conversation, that would be great. Yeah. 536 00:40:43,119 --> 00:40:46,239 First and foremost big tech lobbyists has spent the past five years telling members 537 00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:51,119 of Congress that they can't look at the ecosystem of the Internet until they fix 538 00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:53,840 TikTok. And every time members of Congress bring up legislation, whether it's on 539 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:58,199 kid privacy, whether it's on competition, or whether it's on Section two thirty, 540 00:40:58,519 --> 00:41:00,840 they will like way their little magic wand and say, hey, it's 541 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:05,199 TikTok, TikTok, TikTok. And they did that because they assumed members of 542 00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:07,360 Congress would never actually take action on TikTok, and it would be a long 543 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:13,159 standing talking point that would delay action against big tech. The reality is now 544 00:41:13,159 --> 00:41:15,480 that we have members of Congress on both the left and the right who recognize 545 00:41:15,519 --> 00:41:20,039 TikTok is the problem, have a build before them that can solve this problem 546 00:41:20,119 --> 00:41:22,960 right now and also allow them to seed the ground, if you will, 547 00:41:23,159 --> 00:41:27,840 soften up the ground to allow them to actually work on big tech issues. 548 00:41:28,159 --> 00:41:32,039 So instead of actually using TikTok as a distraction, it is now actually going 549 00:41:32,119 --> 00:41:36,360 to be an example of us moving forward in a way that actually can rein 550 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,599 in the power big tech and also allow for American innovation to push back against 551 00:41:39,639 --> 00:41:45,280 the Chinese. And so I'm actually encouraged that by moving forward on TikTok on 552 00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:49,280 the House and the Senate deliberating on this, it opens up the airways, 553 00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:53,880 It opens up the opportunity for a real conversation about those other entities that now 554 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:58,480 if TikTok goes away, they no longer have a boogeyman to distract members of 555 00:41:58,519 --> 00:42:01,920 Congress. They now no longer have that opportunity. And also one other point 556 00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:07,920 that I bring up is the unique challenges of TikTok are different than than the 557 00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:13,599 issues of privacy when it comes to other big tech platforms. The issues of 558 00:42:13,639 --> 00:42:16,800 TikTok are unique to to what's going on in the app store and their treatment 559 00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:22,119 of of of app users. It's different than Wi Fi routers like tp link, 560 00:42:22,519 --> 00:42:25,199 which are China you know, uh uh pervert uh you know, sucking 561 00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:30,079 up information to the from from the US and Sanda that China. It's at 562 00:42:30,079 --> 00:42:32,280 all like long standing concerns and issues, and if we start with one, 563 00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:36,360 we can then go down down the pipeline and kind of look at all these 564 00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:39,920 issues that that that that they're popping up. Look like Google Gemini is an 565 00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:45,400 issue, but it's an issue that fits into a conversation about American innovation. 566 00:42:46,079 --> 00:42:50,760 And that's I think different than looking at issues to to push back on the 567 00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:54,280 conduct of Chinese owned entities, you know. And the only thing I'd add 568 00:42:54,320 --> 00:43:00,760 to that, Nathan, is just the possibility of a hot conflict with China 569 00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:04,719 is not remote, or a hot conflict with the country that is allied with 570 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:08,239 China is not remote. In fact, it is imminent. And if Americans 571 00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:13,800 are sent boots on the ground to die, whether it's in a conflict with 572 00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:20,280 a Chinese ally or with China itself, I think we will be better off 573 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:24,760 taking our odds with the DARPA companies than with one that is in the pocket 574 00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:30,079 of almost every American under the age of thirty five and allied with the people 575 00:43:30,079 --> 00:43:35,320 who are actively trying to kill Americans. And again, that is not a 576 00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:39,199 remote threat. That's something that's very real, could basically happen at any moment. 577 00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:44,480 Hope to God that it doesn't. But the sort of latent threat of 578 00:43:44,519 --> 00:43:50,599 TikTok with the military context in the background, is truly a terrifying one because 579 00:43:50,639 --> 00:43:54,079 that's bigot in the same way it's sent all of those kids into hysteria calling 580 00:43:54,159 --> 00:43:59,039 House and Senate offices, even if it was just a handful of kids, 581 00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,679 as we heard, that is a terrifying thing to have in the hands of 582 00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:07,000 again, just about every American under the age of thirty five, controlling the 583 00:44:07,039 --> 00:44:10,360 flow of political information, controlling the flow of cultural information, and controlling the 584 00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:15,840 flow of for example, voting information. They have a voting project that secks 585 00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:17,519 up your information and tells you where to go to the polls, all of 586 00:44:17,559 --> 00:44:20,960 that. I mean, this is just a vast power. We don't know 587 00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:23,320 how it changes. You made this point earlier, Nathan, down the line, 588 00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:27,800 ten years from now, what China does with that data fifty years from 589 00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:30,639 now what China does with that data, some of which is biometric. I 590 00:44:30,679 --> 00:44:34,960 mean, it's just it's terrifying, chilling stuff. So thank you for coming 591 00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:37,760 here to break it down and for explaining it to all of us. Absolutely, 592 00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:40,800 Thanks again for having me. Really appreciate the opportunity kind of share with 593 00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:46,079 your audience and look forward to answering other questions or seeing how this develops. 594 00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:50,280 Yeah, and again as a reminder, you can go read Nathan's piece up 595 00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:53,199 on The Federalist right now about some of this. Chris Bedford, thank you 596 00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:58,320 so much for setting this up and for joining us. Of course. All 597 00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:00,480 right, everyone, you've been listening to another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. 598 00:45:00,519 --> 00:45:04,280 I'm Emily Dashinski, culture editor here at the Federalist. Will be back 599 00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:07,480 soon with more. Until then, be the lovers of freedom. I'm anxious 600 00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:14,000 for the first. You got me right, well, you