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this is Less Striving. Yes, yes, I know aka Surviving Man
and you're listening to Brian on sais He if you want to welcome back to
sasquatch Otis. Thank you so much for being with us for the show.
It is Friday. I hope you guys have had a great week. You
have an amazing show line up for you. But as always, I want
to start the show by inviting you. If you've had an encounter and you'd
like to be on the show, shoot me an email you get me a
Brian at Paranormal World Productions dot com. Can head over to the website,
check it out, become a member there and help support the show. As
I said, we've got a great guest lined up for you. I got
to sit down and talk to Daryl Collyer of the North American would Ache Conservancy
and we talked about all of his personal experiences and all the other goings on
out there in Area X. It was an amazing conversation and I think you
guys are really going to enjoy it if you would take a couple of seconds
to rate and review the show wherever you're listening to the podcast, and make
sure you check us out and follow us on Instagram at Sasquatch Odyssey, on
TikTok as Sasquatch Odyssey podcast, and we'd love to have you joined us in
the Sasquatch Odyssey Fans group on Facebook. But enough of that, I'm gonna
let the music play. You guys, sit back, relax, and enjoy
the show. Folks at welcome our guests to the show. It is Darryll
Callier from the North American Woodape Conservancy. Welcome to the show, Daryl,
Hello, Brian, how are you. I'm good man. I appreciate you
taking time to be here. I'm glad we could line up our schedules.
I've been looking forward to this conversation forever, so I'm glad you're finally here.
So let's get right into it. Let's talk about this bigfoot thing first
and foremost. What got you interested in the subject to begin with? And
goes back to when I was a little kid. I'm originally from northeast Texas.
I was born in a little town called Atlanta. When I was born,
we lived in a house that was on the Arkansas side of the state
line, about five miles from the famous infamous area of Body Creek Falk,
Arkansas. So from the time I was a little child, I heard all
kinds of stories, in particulate from my father, my father. The way
my father told it, he was stalked one night on his way home,
walking down a long in this long road that he had to take to get
from his uncle, my uncle, my great uncle's place, to his place.
He was twelve years old, and it was dark and he's walking along
and he could see the shadow of this thing shadowing him on the other side
of the spence in the piney woods. He's walking down and he started jogging,
and it started jogging with him, keeping up with him, and it
followed him all the way to the house, and he jumped up on the
porch and my grandmother came out and said, you know, you look like
you've seen a ghost. And from that time forward, you know, Brian,
I was just sort of intrigued by the whole idea, and I wanted
to I wanted to find out what it was that it chased my father that
night and got older and went in to the Air Force and made a promise
to some some buddies that I was going to look into this. And here
I am, all these years later, and I am definitely looking into it.
And I have seen some things that I never thought I would ever see
in my entire life. I have those answers personally, and now I just
want to I want to solve this on the world stage for the entire world.
Well, I definitely want to get into those personal experiences, and that's
one of the things that I've talked to so many people about recently what is
it that keeps you going out in the woods. And I certainly want to
talk about that as well. But before we get into that, I want
to put the cart before the horse. Let's talk a little bit about the
North American wood Ape Conservancy. I mentioned it in the Open of course,
we've had map proved on the show. He's a friend of the show,
he's a friend of mine, and we've talked about it a little bit.
But for those that aren't familiar with the North American wood Ape Conservancy, can
you give us sort of the dime store tour of what that organization is,
how it came to be, and then how you got involved with them.
The North American wood Ape Conservancy is a nonprofit research organization and we are dedicated
to conclusively demonstrating that the sasquatch, the wood ape is a legitimate species in
North America. It started out back early two thousands as the Texas Bigfoot Research
Center, founded by Craig Willheater. We became a nonprofit in two thousand and
seven name changed the Texas Bigfoot Research Conservancy. Twenty thirteen changed the name again
to the North American would Ape Conservancy. We liked the name would Ape based
on our experience of the data that we've collected, we believe that it is
a it's an undiscovered great ape. We decided to go with that name.
We feel like that's a legitimate name and we didn't make that name up.
That name was already established in the literature, and we think it is very
aproposed for this animal. And it is, Like I said, we're a
nonprofit research organization. Now we have about one hundred members. We spend anywhere
from three, four or five months out of the year in the field.
Much of that time is around the clock for fifteen, sixteen, seventeen,
eighteen weeks consecutively or instance. This year we have the annual field study.
We call that Operation New Dawn, where now in the ninth week we've had
teams on the field for the last nine weeks. It amounts to about fifteen
hundred man hours. It's twenty four hours a day, seven days a week,
all month. Out of the fifteen hundred hours, we've had about I
would say, about three seconds of visual this year, so we've actually had
three visuals, but the amount to about three seconds in duration. Very very
very tough to see these things, but yeah, that's what it's all about
I mean, the hypothesis is that there is a legitimate species behind the sasquatch
a wood a phenomenon, and now we are attempting to validate that hypothesis.
Well, let's talk about your hours spent out there. I know you spend
a ton of time in the woods. That's one of the things I love
about you the most is you're one of these boots on the ground, real
deal guys. People are probably seen you as I have and some of the
bigfoot documentaries that are out there, and that's where I really fell in love
with the Nawac and what you guys are really trying to do. Because I've
had Kathy Strain on the show, and Kathy and I have talked at length
about what you guys go through and what you actually do while you're out there,
so I certainly want to talk about that. Well, let's talk about
your hours in the woods and how much time you spent in this area X
And if you wouldn't mind tell a little bit about let the audience know what
Area XE is and then what have you experienced when you've been out in that
area? Well, Brian, Area X is an area that we focus on
now for our studies, and it wasn't always the primary area of focus for
us. It was designated Area X just arbitrarily. That was not some spooky,
creepy name we came up with. We had alpha designators for all these
different areas. We had an Area Y, we had an Area Z,
we had Area X, we actually had an area Area Area S. We
had all these different areas, and it just so happened that, you know,
when we called them all away and we got down to the area where
we had the most activity, the most data collected, it was Area X.
An Area X is an area in the Washington Mountains, which is an
east west mountain range situated on the border of Oklahoma and Arkansas. It's about
three hundred miles wide, about one hundred and seventy five or two hundred miles
from north to south. It's a very remote area, partly any population there.
If you look at a map of lights, you know, they having
those maps of lights that you where you can see like a urban areas lit
up, you'll see that's it's a big dark void area for lights. It's
just not a lot of people that live there, and it's it's extremely rugged,
very remote. I don't have any cell phone coverage. We just this
year we just started getting cell phone coverage out in the field out there,
and that's only It's not everybody. The last team I was there with two
weeks ago with Alton Higgins, he got coverage and Matt and I were out
there with him into and we had to hot spot his phone and able to
get coverage there. It's it's it's really remote. You know. From the
highway it takes us an hour and a half just to get to the cabin
that we have, and the it's it's like twelve miles as the pro flies.
But the oh, it is so horrible. You know, it takes
us an hour and a half just to get from the highway to the cabin.
Once you get out there to that area, I know you've had personal
experiences, and this is an encounter show, so obviously people want to hear
about that. Can you talk about some of the many experiences you and I
were talking before we get on the area's We probably don't have time to go
through everything you've experienced, but some of those things that have stuck out to
you over the last decade plus that you've been out there, and researching these
things. Man's a tough question because there's a lot. There's a lot.
You know. You and I had talked a little bit before we started recording
for the show, and you mentioned something about wood knocks and that sort of
thing. I remember in twenty thirteen, I had a visual that came very
close to substantiating actually seeing one of these animals produced wood knocks. So it
was there was I think there were five of us there at the time.
This is Operation Relentless in twenty thirteen. It's about ten in the morning,
and we were standing in front of a cabin and we had had a pretty
active night. We were discussing. We were debriefing of what we had observed
the previous night and that morning. And from about seventy five yards to the
way I'm facing now would be my left up the mountain in this area we
called bottleneck area. It was just where the woods just sort of bottleneck into
this trail and then it just went up the slope of a mountain. Here
heard two distinct, clear, loud wood knocks. Just wow, and I
just turned to look. And when I looked up there where the sounds came
from, I see this tall black figure about seventy five yards away, just
walking on almost like creeping down the mountain. I mean it was almost like
somebody just like like this thing was like trying to avoid being seen in the
way that it was walking. But I clearly saw it. I mean it,
you know, just walked right through this gap of the trees and told
the guy, I said, gentlemen, I just saw something. So I
just want to be lying straight for it. So I went there and I
went into the woods, and then I could hear this thing just just tearing
off through the woods. I couldn't see it at that point, but I
could hear it sound like a freight train. Then I hear running to my
ride and I look to the trees and I see my buddy, Travis Lawrence.
He's running down the tree. He's on the trail, running forward the
direction We're gonna try to cut this thing off. I'm still in the woods
and I'm trying to get through all this greenbrier and all this brush, and
I get down on my knees. I stand up, and I can still
hear it, and I'm looking and I'm I still can't see it. I
mean, it's just all I can hear is just this movement? Well,
Travis runs down past me. I lose it. I get stuck in there.
And Travis comes back about twenty five thirty seconds later and says he never
never saw it, but he heard what we call fox speech, and some
people call like a chatter or whatever. It was just some sort of gibberish,
indecipherable gibberish. It just sounds. It usually has like a yeah,
it's just something like that. And he heard it clearly, and it was
up on the mountain. So I step out of the woods, meet with
Travis, and just at that instance, the guys back of the cabin start
yelling. We hear these banging. Cabin gets hit with a rock and then
another one, and so it's like this all happened within the span of like
thirty seconds. I hear the wooden knox. I go after it. I
hear the wood knox, I see the thing. I go after it.
I go in the woods. I get kind of stuck in the brush.
Travis runs down, he hears the gibberish, the foe speeches we call it.
And then Alton and a couple of other guys were back at the cabin
they're there as rocks start getting thrown at the cabin. So for most people
that would be enough to say, Okay, you know this is I'm done
here. But that was just I'm telling you for a while that that stuff
was almost like routine for us. He didn't have it all the time,
but there were times where it would happen and it would just be like NonStop
for you know, like thirty minutes, and then for the next ten hours
you wouldn't hear anything, or the next two days, and then all of
a sudden it would start up again. But yeah, I mean, that's
so that's just one of the you know, the more fascinating I've had.
Well, let's talk a little bit about the wood Knox because that's something that
I have really struggled with with me looking into the subject for years, because
I honestly felt, in Cliff and I've had this conversation, I felt like
it was something that was sort of created for television by shows like Finding Bigfoot,
because you have to have something to do to keep an audience entertained,
right, you have to go out and you have to beat on some trees,
you gotta make some noise, you gotta go out at night and do
some whoops and yales and these big calls. And I never really understood if
they were doing wood knocks, because, like you said, you almost caught
one doing one visually. You know, I'm a one to one correlation guy,
right, I was in law enforcemuth so I kind of need something to
say, Okay, I saw this thing doing this. Therefore they do wood
knocks. But it's something that's really prolific throughout. Most of the investigators and
researches you talked to, they say the experience these wood knocks. So was
that something that was immediate for you guys in Area X or has that evolved
over the years and how has that went as your time out there has progressed?
Right? We were just like you, seriously we were. We were
all very skeptical about them, and I would say as late as twenty ten,
but we started hearing them because back at twenty ten and before we were
not going in there for prolonged field studies. We were we were reliant on
camera traps at the time, and the entire idea up until then was put
out the camera traps and you get the heck out of Dodge and just you
know, you want to be as unobtrusive as possible. You want to leave
this place pristine. You don't, you don't want to be part of the
experiment. And so we would put the camera traps out, leave them,
come back six months later, spend three maybe four days, you know,
servicing those cameras, pulling all the cards, changing batteries, and then we'd
get back out. We didn't spend a whole lot of time there. We
didn't really hear these knocks until we started spending a little more time there.
In fact, late twenty ten, November of twenty ten, we decided to
go in there for five six days in November, and that's and we heard
a number of these knocking sounds and if that it was during that point that
many of us came to terms with that. We said, Okay, something
is going on here. We're hearing these percussive sounds. They're clean, they're
clear. Something out here in these woods and there's no people. Again,
it's it's difficult for many people to conceive, but there's just it's virtually impossible
for somebody to come in there and hoax us. It's just the place is
so hard to get to to begin with, it's so hard to get around
on foot that you have to be in very good condition physically. You have
to be physically fit to get around in the place, particularly at night.
Nobody, nobody's ever going to go in there at night without some sort of
visual aid, without lights and just walk around those mountain slopes and those mountains.
It's hard enough with lights. So the whole point there is that hoaxing.
We can we can pretty much just rule that out. So we came
to terms with the knocking. Okay, and now it's axiomatic for us.
That is a wood ape signpost. We are firm that these things produce these
percussive sounds as some sort of communication. We have not broke the code.
We've not broken the code yet, but it is a code of communication for
them. We've experienced them in a number of different settings. Just like the
one that I just told you about, there's another fascinating one. So this
was again in twenty thirteen, Travis Lawrence and I we're conducting what we call
overwatch. Overwatch is we take a canopy tent with the open sides, you
know, it's just got the four bars with the roof on it. We
wrap those walls with black plastic trash bags. And the reason we do that
is because a thermal scope will see right through it as if the black plastic
is not there, nothing else can see you because you're concealed behind the black
plastic. So what you essentially have as a tent, but it's made of
black plastic trash bags. And then when you get your thermals, you can
look around as if there's no walls. It's like you're sitting there with no
walls on the tent. And so we constructed what we called an Overwatch tent
in twenty thirteen, and we started doing what we would call Overwatch, which
was we would go in this at night with thermal scopes and we would we
would have a team of two people and they would man these Overwatch tents for
six eight hours and we just collected a treasure toll of data. And one
of the more fascinating things that we collected happens to be the wood knocking.
It was just fascinating. So, for instance, one night, and I
don't remember the exact time, probably two am, two thirty three, three
o'clock in the morning, Travis and I were on Overwatch and you know,
we're sitting there, we're scanning. You know, I might stand up.
He's he's seated, he's looking one way and I'm looking another way. And
then all of a sudden, you hear, you know, from the east,
you hear bam. I mean it literally sounds like somebody out in the
woods with a Louisville slugger. That's literally what it sounds like. From sixty
yards away. You hear that. Ten seconds later from the west, bam,
from the north, bam, bam. Five seconds later from the south,
bam, bam, ten seconds later from the east, bam. In
solid. Forty five minutes later, you hear from the north bam, from
the east, BAM. I can't tell you how many times that happened to
us, how many times we documented that. And then we would have rock
throws, you know, in between the wood knocking. Oftentimes we will have
wood knocking. Historically, we've had it over the last ten years, twelve
years. When Pete right before people come in the guys at Campbell here,
wood knock. Two minutes later, a guy rolls up, right after somebody
leaves camp thirty seconds forty five seconds a minute, you'll hear a wood knock
once time. I told the team I was going to come in like seven
pm on a Friday evening. So what they did is they sent two guys
out away from camp up the mountain on the main road end. It's not
really a road, it's like a mule trail and it's very rocky, very
steep, very nasty. You gotta have you really have to have temply tires
with thick rubber off road tires to get you should anyway, So five minutes
before I show up, they document a massive wooden hicky and they radio to
each other and said, I'll bet you he's I bet you Darrell's coming.
Sure enough, you know. Four or five minutes later, here I come
down the mountain. So that's just one example of so many that we've had.
Stay tuned for more Sasquatch out to Sea Warding right back after these messages.
It's a form of communication. And the thing is chimps. Chimps do
they do something similar. They do they do it's called drumming. It's not
exactly the same, but it is kindred and that they beat on trees.
They'll beat on trees with rock, they'll beat on trees with their feet,
so it's not unprecedented. In the Great Apes. We sometimes refer to it
as would ape or sasquatch Morse code, and there are times. In fact,
last year Matt Pruitt and I were out together on a team and Brian
uh we lost count of the wood knocks, and we were at that time
we were eliciting. We had we both had little baseball bats, and we
would, you know, we would knock and then we would get a response.
We would wait fifteen, twenty minutes, twenty five minutes, knock again,
get another response, or then you would hear like a double response.
And this went on for hours. And of course the hope is you'll get
them to come in close enough to you so you can get footage, film,
whatever. It never happened, but you know, we both agreed the
probably the closest woman was fifty meters, but when you're in a jungle like
environment, fifty meters is forever. I mean, it's it's just it's a
long way. But yeah, it's axiomatic for US wood knocking. You know,
academic, we totally don't. It's not even controversial with this in the
least, it's not debatable they do it. You know, I could just
go on and on and on about it. Yeah, talked to so many
people that have their own opinions about what it is, but clearly I have
come to realize as well that it is something that they do because so many
people experience it. I had a conversation with Carter Bouchard a couple of years
ago, and Carter had been in situations where it was like they were counting
people, like you said, were coming and going in the group, and
as they would leave, they would hear the knocks correspond with the amount of
people that were coming and going. So it was almost a communication that they
were going back and forth to say, hey, there's two coming or there's
three leaving, or whatever the case may be. The what knocking and the
rock throwing is something that has always fascinated me. Obviously we've seen everybody seen
videos of apes and chimps and other lesser apes and in greater apes throwing things
right, whether it be feces, rocks, whatever. What do you make
of the throwing of the rocks that you guys experience. Has it been in
a threatening way or is it more of a curiosity thing. What are you
guys finding as far as the rock throwing as concerned, we think your intimidation
displays. Yeah, And we've had everything, Brian, from small small rocks,
the size of a nickel, size of a golf ball, size of
a baseball, softball, soccer ball, basketball, watermelon. And we've not
seen these, but we've heard them big boulders, and there's nowhere to know
how big they are, but they sound massive. I mean they sound like,
you know, like boulders being thrown in the creeks in the rock and
when it makes an impact, it definitely leaves an impression because you know,
the valley we're in is it's a long valley that's situated between mountains, and
it's a deep valley and it's very rocky. So when there's a very very
loud sound, it just has an echo and it reverberates. And so when
they throw these big rocks, it doesn't happen very often, but you know
you'll hear like uh. And the old valley's flat, I mean there's no
and even the slopes, I don't know what is it, thirty degrees or
whatever, they're not. There's no overhangs where rocks are just falling down there.
It's it's these are these are slopes and they're wooded. They're densely wooded
slopes of mountain. And then you have this valley that's you know, I
don't know, it ranges from anywhere from a thousand to two or three thousand
meters across, and there's you know, rocky creeks, and the whole valley
floor is just covered with rocks. It's got dense brush, but but the
floor itself is rocky. There's rocks everywhere, and so you hear these big
rocks being tossed from time to time. Again stress, it doesn't happen all
the time, on occasion, maybe once a year if that, but when
you hear it, it absolutely makes an impression. I think Matt Matt Crewitt's
first trip there, he was he was pretty I wouldn't say he was shaken,
but he was definitely. It definitely left an impression on him because you
know, he heard that boulder toss and he was in disbelief. Because it's
pretty scary because when you when you contemplate something having the stream to pick up
whatever it is you're hearing. I mean it sounds large, you know,
size of a kitchen table. When you think about a rock that size being
picked up and tossed and it bounces three or four times. That's, man,
that's some incredible strength and that I don't think that can be for anything
other than some sort of intimidation display. When the rocks are thrown at us
or toward us, I think it's for intimidation purposes. The team I was
there with two weeks ago, Alton had just gone gotten up in the middle
of the night to relieve himself, and he came back in and I got
up right after him, and I went out did the same thing. And
so I get through and I grabbed the vinyl thermals. It's like four in
the morning, and we have some binoculars, thermal binoculars. I get the
thermal binoculars and I'm just standing there looking and all of a sudden, I
hear through the leaves and then bow on top of the roof. As I'm
standing there looking up the mountain, and you know, I'm just okay,
where are you? And I you know, I scanned all around. I
couldn't see anything. But again, the vegetation is so thick, and man,
they're so good. It just hit and runs. They're so good.
At it. It just doing what they gotta do, and then they just
disappeared. They're gone. You know. They know how to they know how
to use cover. They're fast, they're very very wily, crafty up to
get a visual on them. You know, let's stick with that for just
a second. As far as the threatening behavior, I've documented a ton.
I mean, we're three hundred plus episodes in on the Sasquatch Odyssey, and
I've documented one case that comes to mind. Jeff Harding out in the Pine
Island Research Area. He had an experience when he was like eighteen, and
one of these things was he surprised it on a trail and it kind of
chunked a stick at him and hit him in the chest and knocked him down.
That's the only time I've every documented an encounter where there was a physical
interaction and this thing was appeared to be a great and Jeff says it was
more of a surprise thing. He doesn't feel like it was trying to hurt
him, because it certainly could have. Are you guys experiencing any other type
of threatening stuff you're out there in these woods. It's clear, at least
in my mind that with some of the behavior they're expressing, they probably don't
want you there, at least on some level. They're trying to assert dominance.
Have you had other experiences, maybe you or anybody else in the groups
that have experienced something that would be considered more threatening and where they might have
even feared for their safety. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So we
think what this area is is what we call a core, which is different
from a range or a territory. A core is where it's a refuge i'e.
It's where they give birth, it's where they raise young. And we
think we're very close to that core area, and we think you're very protective
of it, and we think that's why they don't leave, because this is
a core for this group, this troop of apes. And so, yes,
we've definitely experienced behaviors before that were overtly aggressive, and those were in
the forms of bluff charges and it never happened to me, but it's happened
to at least two of our people, and yes, it scared them quite
a bit. In fact, one guy he wanted us to call off everything.
We have no idea what we're dealing with here. You know, somebody's
gonna get killed. We need to stop this, and he was he was
pretty he was pretty distraught over it. But yeah, the bluff charge that's
happened I think at least twice, maybe three times. And then you have
you know, people don't believe this. Course, they don't believe any of
this stuff. But we've had we've had trees pushed over before. Look,
I don't know how they do it. So in twenty fourteen, it was
Bob and Cathy Strain, Brian Brown, Daniel Falconer and me. We were
Quebec Team Operation Tenacity. September twenty fourteen. It rained for like two or
three straight days. We were just sort of just stuck on the porch.
To me, it was just pouring eight inches overnight one night and so I
finally the rain broke and it was like, you know, this first day
when we wasn't raining on us and we're sort of standing out in front of
the cabin talking about what we're gonna do, and all of a sudden we
start hearing this big tree cracking near the cracks. We all turn and look
and you see this tree. We could see the top of the tree and
it's a healthy hickory tree just is swaying on this and you hear this.
So I just take off in a dead sprint for this tree, and Brian
bought the rest of them. They're coming. They're right behind me. So
I take off into the woods after I'm trying to find this tree, trying
to find what just trying to find out what just happened. So I take
off that direction. So I get I don't know how far in I get
into the woods, and then all of a sudden, I hear Brian and
Daniel yelling at me, Daryl, Daryl, come back, you have an
animal. And I run back. I get to the woods. I get
to the edge of the woods where they are, and Brian is like dumbfounded.
He said, I just saw one. I was like, what did
Yeah, Daniel and I were looking in the woods where you are, and
we heard a wood knock behind us. I turned and look, and I
see one run across the trail and then it peeks out from behind the trail,
and then I just took off after this, and look, I know
that I've seen them. I know that I can't chase one down. But
here's the whole idea behind running after them, because what happens sometimes or even
oftentimes when we do that is it causes other ones trying to reveal themselves,
because then they'll try to distract you. You're chasing after the first one,
so then they'll start throwing rocks from other directions. They'll start knocking on trees
to get you off of the one you're chasing. I don't chase it because
I think I can chase it because I can catch it. I chase it
because I want them to make a mistake. I want them to reveal.
I want these other ones to reveal themselves because all we we have this this
saying in area X, where there's one, there's more. It's not we
don't there's not some solitary animals. There's a group of them, and they
don't hang out by themselves. We've had multiple visuals of two we've seen.
I mean, one time, two guys. Two of our guys saw four.
Four of them. I've seen two. Travis Lawrence has seen two,
and Harrison is scene too. Brian Brown and Brendan Lynz saw two together.
There have just been numerous, just a number of encounters where we've seen two
together. So we have this saying where there's one, there's more and so
we always that's that we always keep that in our mind. So anyway,
the whole tactic is chase after it, get them to make a mistake.
That's why I went after it. So the point is we saw the tree,
we saw it, we heard it, we went there to the tree.
Brian sees this ape and it could becausious coincidence, but I don't think
so. I think it was an ape that knocked the tree down because we
think that possibly they equate noise with power. You think about it in their
environment, in their world, if you could make a lot of noise,
it presents this image, this air of prowess of strength, because noise can
be very intimidating. Is particularly loud. Noise rocks big rocks trees. And
that's not the only time we've had trees come down. We actually filmed something
in twenty thirteen jumped down from a tree. After they filmed the tree coming
down, and then it felt this thing came out of the tree so fast
it was like a blur, but then and then it just runs off.
That was Brian. Brian Brown filmed that. So anyway, we've had a
number of instances where we've seen the trees come down. We've heard the trees
come down. We think they bring trees down, and that is that's like
the nuke of intimidation that in the big boulders. When they do that,
that's like they're you know, they're bringing out they're bringing out the big guns,
because that's that's like a it's a very very intimidating thing when you witness
it. I've had a tree almost come down on top of me before with
my wife. My wife was with me. We had we'd just called blasted,
and not even five seconds after the last how that we play is the
Ohio How, just standard Ohio How. We played that. Five seconds after
that, all of a sudden we hear this big tree cracking and we're ducking
because it's a night. It sounds like it's coming right on top of us.
I mean it literally sounds like Brian like it's right there. We're literally
ducking, we're getting on the ground, and this tree comes down. I
still don't know where it landed, but it was a massive tree. You
can hear the cracks and it just comes down and just crashes, and it's
like, Okay, you made your point, Yeah I get it. You're
strong yeah, you know, you know, those things are very intimidating.
You know, anybody who tells you they don't get scared up there, even
even if they've been doing as long as some of us, there's there are
times you still you still still get rattled a bit, you know, I
can only imagine. Let's talk a little bit about the vocalizations. You mentioned
a couple of things, and that's one thing that always sticks out, And
a lot of the encounter stories that I document is people here would they hear
trees being pushed down and they get vocalizations you mentioned, Ohio, how I've
heard something very similar to that here on our property in North Carolina. I
know it's been documented many other states around the country. What kind of vocalizations
are you guys hearing? Are you hearing a ton of them? And are
you seeing a certain time of day or night when they're most active? When
you're getting the vocalizations and some of the other things that are going on out
there. Most of the vocalizations come at night. Conversely, most of the
visuals we've had have been during the daytime. But we've got we've got a
page on our website Woodape dot org and it is dedicated to some of the
sounds we've recorded, some of the most fascinating or the huffs that we have
that we recorded at close range. We had a recorder hanging we had a
recorder inside the cabin, and we ran a microphone outside through the window.
So the only thing that was outside was this little Sunheiser microphone about that big
that just dangled off the cord. It was right down hanging right down the
window. And though those allowed us to make some of the most fascinating recordings
of these things coming up to the cabin throwing rocks. Well, first they
make this hut sound almost like a it's like a sound of exertion, and
then they throw the rock and you can go to our website and you can
hear I don't know how many we have, half dozen. They're they're very
clear, very distinct, because they were right there. I mean I was
in one room when one of those was recorded. I was there. I
heard it with my own ears when it happened, you know, while it
was being recorded. And that's the one where you hear you hear this thing
whistle, and then you hear like footfalls and you're who and then you hear
this like wo bam. You know it hits the cabin with the rock.
I was there for that. I heard it through my window as it's being
recorded. So those are some cool recordings that we got and those are on
the website. We've had a ton of whoop recording. They sound like gibbons,
these these whoops. We don't know if it's a juvenile female, what
the nature of these calls are, but they are clearly they're no birds.
They're very very much like a lesser or grade A. Most people that hear
them would mistake them for givens. We've sent them to a number of people
at institutions and they all come back and say that the closest thing I can
come up with gibbons. Those are on our website. They're whoops there.
The audio recordings are called whoops. And we have crush two dozen maybe I
don't know, twelve, fifteen, twenty, I'm not sure how many we
have. There's a bunch of them. We've managed to record one long howl.
We've recorded what we called a roar. Some whistles. We've recorded whistles.
We've heard them whistle. Travis Lawrence and I got followed by a whistler
one time were probably the better part of a of a mile same thing,
just a single tone whistle. We would whistle back and it just followed us
the whole time. They followed us up a mountain. We did this big
loop and we got back to the cabin and I was standing out in front
of the cabin and I thought Travis was taught. I thought I thought he
was. He was inside the cabin, just inside the door, and I
could hear this, just this sort of mumbling, Travis, what are you
saying? I didn't hear anything. And Travis, he steps out there was
what and what were you saying? Goes. I wasn't saying anything. I
said, I just heard you. He said, No, that was not
me. I guess what it was was some more of that Foe speech or
the chatter. I guess it was back behind the cabin, and I thought
it was Travis, but it wasn't him. And we were the only two
there. We recorded the Foe speech. We've got one instance of that on
there. Heard it a lot more than that. One of the craziest things
that I ever heard. I've got two things to talk about here. Two
of the craziest things that A three. There are three three things that I
want to share. So Alton Higgins and I were sitting out one night in
front of the cabin. We're the only two guys there were the only two
were the last two left on the team. It was dark, I guess
about ten thirty at night. We're sitting in front of the cabin and it's
quiet, and all of a sudden, back behind us, just inside the
woods, i'd say thirty forty meters away, we just hear a this goes
on for like forty five seconds, sixty seconds, just this low consistent pant
hoot, and this goes on for you know, a better part of a
minute, and we're just like, listen to that in the world, you
know, I mean, it's it was just it was clear as a bell,
you know. It's like it was right there behind us, right inside
the woods. So that was one. It was very fascinating. Twenty seventeen
Bob Strain, Tony Schmidt, Phil Burrows, and Sean bober Warner team and
it was about ten o'clock at night. We were sitting around the fire circle.
We had a fire going, and off to our west, probably one
hundred meters or so, we just hear this, this big loud whoop.
We're like cool, Tony answered, But Tony answers, and Tony does his
own whoop and he has his own distinct sound. Well, here's the cool
thing, Brian. It started modifying it sound to sound more like Tony's whoofs.
So it starts, It starts this this exchange off with its own original
sound. Tony answers, I can't do Tony's woof. I mean, he
would have to do it, but he answers in his way, and then
it answers, and it's starting to sound like Tony Tony. I said,
Tony, do it again. Tony does it again. It does it again.
And each time they do this, like four or five times, back
and forth. Each time it responds to Tony, it sounds more and more
like Tony. It's like was changing its sound to sound like the way Tony
was producing these woods. That was really cool. If I didn't know better,
better man, I mean, it just sounded like this just this really
big person. This person out there is creepy. It's really wild. And
then I think the kicker, I think the best. Well, these things
just keep popping up. Stay tuned for more sasquatch out to sea. Wo
be right back after these messages In two thousand and five sam Houston National Horse,
this is not even an area of X. A colleague ANAB wanted to
test this call blaster out and we just stopped at this place randomly in the
sam Houston National Force. It turned out to be a really, really good
spot. This is what got us started in this place. We turned down
this road and the far service room in the Samuston National Horse said, look
at this trailhead. Let's pull up in this trailhead this park here. Let's
wait till dark and then we'll call blast. So we went up to trail
about two hundred three intermeters. We sat there until dark and opened up the
call blaster. Turned it loud. The Ohio how three house no sooner had
we closed the lid. But from just right, I mean just right out
there, you know, fifty meters. I guess this thing responds six times
six hours. At the end of each house. Is this big gnarly growl
after the sixth how you hear this? This tree branch or tree cracking.
Hear the cracks and then you just a you hear the snap of a massive
lamb or tree after the sixth pow and so, and then the last one
I want to tell you about. So it was Brian Brown, another guy
in me twenty eleven. And so we were removing these three logs from across
the trail, the road trail, which was suspicious in and of itself.
Yeah, trees fall, absolutely, but this was three right in one spot.
And we kind of have our own theory about that that we think that
the wood axe may have done this. But anyway, so we could move
them, didn't have the means to move these big logs. They're huge,
they're massive, so we had to cut path around to get around these things.
I could drive my truck through. We had gone, we had left
the valley and we'd gone to the nearest place to get some fix the flat
for an ATV we had, so it came back and that's when we we
get out. All we have is a bone saw. We start cutting these
saplings so we can, you know, cut our way around these down logs
so we can drive through and get back to camp. Took us about twenty
minutes, and the whole time we're cutting, got this bones saw and you
know the sound it makes when you cut your tree. We do that for
like twenty minutes, so finally we can get finished. We're worn out,
you know, we all turned cutting these trees, and um, we didn't
have a chain saw. All that was, you know, back at camp
or wherever. And so I get in my truck and I'm driving through and
uh, you know, Brian and the other guy they're giving me these signals,
you know, to turn. And I look at Brian. He's like,
stop, stop, stop, it's to stop. And I rolled down
the window and I can hear this vocalization. They've already been hearing it for
like ten seconds, and I rolled down my window and then I started hearing
it. And it's just this massive sounding pant hoot. You can hear the
thing breathing in, and it's like wheezing when it breathes in, and it's
rolling out. When it blows out, it makes us, you know,
And it breathes in, it's like it's a it's this weird wheezing sound and
it does this like and it's so loud you can hear it reverberate. I
mean, it's just loud, like what in the world. And so it
just as it stops, then you hear these cloudies like whimpering and like crying
and whimpering. We go after this thing. We start going in thereafter it
and we never could find it. But that was like that was from Bizarro,
you know. And yeah, so those are you know, those are
some other things we've heard. Yeah, the vocalization thing has always fascinated me
because people hear some weird stuff, even with the mimicry. As you were
talking, I wrote down mimicry because I've talked to people. Ron Moorehead comes
to mind. Ron's been on the show a couple of times and talked about
some of the weird metallic sounds that they heard eight miles deep in the woods,
like card doors slamming, and even I think he's described once hearing a
cowbell, you know, and it just doesn't make sense. And I think
these things are sort of like the parrots of the forest in some cases.
I think they really do a lot of mimicry, you know, it's really
strange stuff. I want to talk a little bit about when Matt was on
Gosh almost two years ago now, we had Matt on the show. We
were talking about sort of the North American Woodape Conservancy motto, and what the
goal was was to basically harvest a specimen of one of these creatures, because
science demands what it demands, right, I believe that, you know,
I've had conversations with people recently who think that we can even you know,
maybe move past this and not have to have a body to prove the species.
But I know, when at least you guys started going out there,
and I may be wrong, was that not one of the things that you
guys were trying to do is harvest a specimen. And is that still the
case today or are you guys sort of amending the way that you're going about
your research. Well, that wasn't always that. It wasn't always that way.
In the early years, we were all about getting photographs, and then
we got away from that for a while and we focused solely on the specimen
collection. We don't like to use the word harvest, that's that sounds more
like hunting. We are trying to collect holotide or purposes of scientific documentation and
validation because science requires a specimen because it has to be independently has to be
independently verified, as to be independently examined, has to be poked has to
be prodded, and I didn't. We didn't make the rules. We don't
make the rules for science. But that is what science demands it to this
day, it does. You still have people think that those days were from
the nineteenth century. That's not correct. Scientists still collect specimens today. A
recent there's a recent monkey listed as a as a new species, and they
collected two of them. So it's sausage making process. Nobody wants to talk
about it. People want to use emotion and talk about how horrible it is
and how mean we are, and you know how you know we're despicable,
we're disgusting because we want to collect one and one that we don't want to.
It's been this a science requires and if if this thing's going to be
listed as a species, it's going to have to be done with the collection
of a specimen, whether somebody actively proactively does it, whether someone passively does
it with a logging truck, whether someone finds body corpus, it's going to
take a specimen to have the thing conclusively demonstrated as a legitimate species. Now,
having said that, we have done a pivot, and I will say
by that, what I mean by that is that we are now focusing at
least fifty percent of our efforts on getting photographs and film, and that is
because we believe there can be great value in collecting clear photographic videographic evidence.
In and of itself, it's not going to get the species listed. However,
we believe it is our position, our firm conviction, that photograph and
film could then start a chain of events that could then lead to definitive validation
of the species. In other words, about bringing in others with resources,
bringing in other people who can help, other people who can contribute and can
help us, can help whoever facilitate what needs to be done so the species
can be formally documented and recognized. So we believe there's great value in good
photographs and family. And I don't mean I don't mean blob squatches. I
don't mean a photograph that's controversial. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking
about clear photographs where you have a series of photographs, maybe a good thirty
second video, as you would, you know, a gorilla in the zoo.
I'm talking about good, clear photographs. We think that's possible. I've
seen these things a number of times, and I used to carry along gun.
Now I carry a camera. I believe I'm oftinit that I can get
the next time I see one. If I if I get another opportunity like
I've had in the past, I'll be able to get good film, good
photographs film. I'm not trying to get film, I'm trying to get photographs.
But I can get good photographs, I'm confident of, you know,
that is if I'm presented with another opportunity. So we have now part of
our organization it's called the Camera Corp and those are those are people who are
designated to get photographs and film. We only have a small number of people
who are actually designated as collectors. They're specialists and they're highly trained at an
extensive background. It's like maybe a half dozen people out of a hundred that
have that designation. And then a large portion of the rest of the rest
of the organization and is dedicated to the Camera Corps. So, yes,
it's going to take a body. Unfortunately, I don't want to have to
do it. Nobody really does. Nobody does, none of us do.
It's dirty, dirty business. And unfortunately, like I said, we didn't
make the rule because if we did, we'd set the bar as low as
we could. You know, we would have already met the bar if we
if we made the rules, but we didn't. The rules have a very
high setting. It's a very high standard, and it should. We're talking
about a species here that spies reason. Really, it's tough to wrap your
mind around. And I was that way before I saw one with my own
eyes. It was even though I heard all the stories growing up, even
though I'd heard them all my life, it was difficult for me to wrap
my mind around, and I didn't fully until I saw one. At that
point, that's when I said, oh, my gosh, they aren't.
We all gotta be kidding me. Things are real, man, And it's
just a matter of time. Because I'm telling you, man, there is
a troop of apes in area Eggs and the Washington Mountains. And reasonable inference
then tells us that if there is one of those these troops in the Interior
Highlands of North America, then there are other areas in North America that have
them as well. You know, they got to the Interior Highlands, they
must have you know, again, it's a reasonable inference to say that they
crossed the Bearing Land Bridge like every other North you know, some of the
other North American species, and they made it this far into the middle of
the content. Gott to be in the Northwest, you got to be in
other places. People that just want to turn their nose at this and just
say it's silly, there's no way these things can exist. I think they're
just it's just heading the sand. You know. For me, science is
all about discovery. It's all about inquisitiveness, curiosity, you know, seeing
what's out there, seeing why can't you just investigate it? It's certainly worthy
of that when you have tens of thousands of eyewitnesses. So anyway, I
definitely agree, And that's what I keep coming back to the whale, and
I keep doing the show and document as many encounters as possible because I too
want to see those answers answered. And I think we've had this sort of
back and forth on the show over the last six or eight months. I've
been so frustrated with just the way things are. Cliff and I kind of
had this conversation when I had him on recently about the lack of or what
appears to be a lack of real forward progress with the subject in general,
right, And I say, like lack of evidence. And you know,
Cliff of course caused me to the car, and he's like, there's tons
of evidence out there, Yeah, but for most people like me who have
never seen one of these things. I've talked to so many people who have
had those experiences, but I have not, So we look at it as
or we've used the inference on the show so many times recently. The Patterson
Gimblin film put us on the five yard line back in nineteen sixty seven,
and the ball hasn't really moved a whole lot. There's a lot of shysters
out there who fake videos and fake evidence over the years. I mean,
we've got the Freeman footage in addition to the Patterson Gimblin film that I sort
of hold up. There's sort of one and two and the as far as
the video footage or even photographic evidence of these things are real, but outside
of that, there's not a ton of that. So I guess we'll close
out there with as much time as you guys have spent an area X and
I think you said twelve maybe fifteen years, you've been out there yourself and
you've had these experiences, but there's not a whole lot outside of that for
people like me who've never had those experiences to point to and say I can
latch onto that and say these things are absolutely real. So I guess question
is that was a really long winded question, So I'll simplify the easiest way
to put it. I guess is, why do you think it is so
difficult to capture what people would consider good video or good photographic evidence that these
things are out there? Why do you think they're so elusive? Yet?
I joke all the time on the show, at least a couple of times
a month, I'll have somebody reach out to me and said, they almost
hit one with a prius while it's crossing the road. It's really this extreme
polar opposites. You guys are out there trying to find them for fifteen years,
and there you've catched a three second glance over the course of fifteen hundred
hours. Yet Joe Schmo's driving to work and he almost hits one with a
prius. Why do you think it's so difficult to capture the evidence that everybody's
looking forward to answer that question? I guess is the final question I have
for you, Well, there aren't that many people. Look, you have
some people that go out occasionally for two days, three days. There's nobody
that's nobody other than us that are out there conducting field studies the way that
promatologists do or the known grade age who go and spend months at a time
out in the field without respite. There's there's no concentrated effort, there's no
funding, there's no there's no sort of you know, widespread endeavor to study
the wood age. For the most part, you can't get academia involved because,
you know, because they're hindered by you know, wanting to keep their
tenure secured politics rather than the pursuit of discovery. You know, it's again,
there's there's there are no organizations that have even anywhere close to the resources
that we have. We're really the only ones doing what we're doing, and
it's not easy. We've never had any sort of donor. Everything that we
do is self funded and we don't make any money. It costs us tens
of thousands of dollars every year to do what we're doing. We buy all
our own equipment, we lease the land that we're on. We all take
time away from work from family and what we're pursuing Brian. Unless you've experienced
it, you can hear me say this all day, but it's really not
going to amount to much because again, unless you've experienced it, it's it's
abstract. I mean, we're dealing with a species that is extremely elusive,
very intelligent, at least as intelligent as orangs and chimps, at least as
intelligent, at least the strength of guerrillas, I'm sure, much more than
that, as stealthy as a tiger or mountain lion that lives in remote pockets
in North America. The guy in the prius, we hypothesize he's seeing a
wayward young male that has left his troop and is now going out to procreate.
So, just like the other the other great apes that you know,
the young males, they leave the troops, they go to find mates.
That's probably what he's this person seeing in the prius. Well, we have
an area X, what we believe is a refugim We believe we have the
core. It's just like I don't know if you've seen this documunity chimp empire
they talk about on there. Unless those chimps are clamated to you, you're
not going to see them, You're going to hear them, you're going to
find their sign. Well, that's what we find with these things, and
when you do see them, it's going to be very fleeting and it's going
to be rare. And that's exactly what we have with this thing. Again.
Until we can get the conclusive proof, it's going to continue to remain
this controversial subject. And until people can just choose to get involved in this
and not be bound by politics, university politics, or institutional politics, then
it's going to continue to remain this way unless we can become fortunate and get
and do what needs to be done. We've come very close. We've had
at least two occasions where we actually almost did collect a specimen, very very
close. Some would say within a quarter of an inch. You know,
we've come that close. It seems, you know, logic seems to dictate
that we can come close, we can get you know, we can get
that opportunity again, where certainly it's not for lack of trying. We've got
seventeen weeks lined up this year. We're halfway through it now, We've had
three fleeting visuals and we still got eight nine weeks left and I'm going out
a couple of weeks and then I'll be going out again. You can rest
assured that we're giving it everything we've got. We're you know, our teams
go out there and they work their butts off. It's a very unforgiving,
hostile environment. You know, running water, there's no you don't have a
c you know, you have an outhouse. I mean, you know,
it's it's just very primitive. And we're out there for seven days and and
it rains all the time, it's hot, it's you know, ticks,
snakes everywhere, black bears coming into camp. And you've got these things you're
dealing with. You've got, you know, some of our guys. One
of our guys got you know, stocked by Mountain lion, you know,
been charged by black bears. So it's you know, it's not easy to
do. I don't think the odds are very high at all at all of
anyone going out there for a day or two and bringing back conclusive evidence.
I'll just say it. I think we offer the best, the best chance
right now for the sasquatch to be fully documented as a legitimate species until until
somebody else gets involved. It has has great resources and great numbers and organization
and coordination. We're the only game in town. Nobody wristwat That doesn't matter
to me. It's just the way it is. I mean, we're gonna
be out there for four months straight. Who else can say that. That's
every day, twenty four to seven, around the clock for four months straight.
So we are collecting data. It's not that no one's out there.
There's no one out there collecting data. We are absolutely collecting data. Now.
You know, we can have a discussion about whether or not it's going
to move the ball down the field. You know that's open to interpretation.
But we just continue to collect mounds and mounds of data. Again, you
can go to our website. You can hear the vocalizations. We've recorded those
vocalizations. That's a form of evidence. Take those vocalizations, send them,
send them to whoever, ask them what they think they are. Send them
to a promatologist, get their thoughts on it, and they're gonna, I
know where they're gonna tell you. They're gonna tell you they don't know.
And if you mention the Sasquatch, they're probably not even gonna listen to them.
If you can get one with an open mind who will listen to them.
They're gonna say, you know, I don't know what that is.
Those sound like gibbons, or that sounds like a guerrilla or I'm not sure,
I don't know what that is. But anyway that those are my thoughts.
I mean, it's just just shy of being impossible to get this done
based on the current state of what all it takes to get this done and
the shortage of people that are out there doing it at the level that it
needs to be done. Now, if we had five or six in awacs
across the continent committed to four and five months every year, it's gonna happen,
man, you know, using techniques that we have been trying for the
last ten to twelve years. That's part of the problem too. In Area
X, these apes are very smart. They learn just like we learn.
So you teach them a trick, they get keen to it, and chances
are they're not going to respond to it much, if at all, anymore
in the future. Whereas if you go to a new area that hasn't been
exposed to some of the things we've done, chances of success are going to
be a lot greater. It's like we wish we could go back in time,
knowing what we know now, back to twenty twelve, it'd be a
different game. Well, I definitely appreciate it, Darryl Callier. I'm glad
you guys are out there doing what you're doing. I sit behind the microphone
and collect my dad so I don't have to deal with the things that you
do, and I am certainly glad that you guys are out there doing it.
Everybody, go and check out the website. I have at linked in
the show notes for you guys to go over and check it out. You
can check out some of those vocalizations that Darrel's talked about and some of the
other things that they've collected over the years. Darrel, I really appreciate you
taking time out of your schedule and coming on the show. Man. I've
had a blast. It's been an honor to pleasure to have you on.
It really asks my pleasure. Brian, thank you very much for having me.
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