1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:07,200 You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,719 --> 00:00:12,039 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,000 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,239 victims a violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,640 murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together 6 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:28,440 with Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a 7 00:00:28,519 --> 00:00:32,439 researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social 8 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:37,759 media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 9 00:00:37,799 --> 00:00:49,240 in crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind of a Murder. I'm Kristin 10 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:53,359 Dilley. That makes me Bill Thomas, and we are joined today by one 11 00:00:53,359 --> 00:00:58,920 of our very favorite people, Cheryl McCollum, Intrepid CSI and now podcaster Mac. 12 00:00:59,039 --> 00:01:02,719 Thank you for joining us today, Oh honey, thank you so much. 13 00:01:02,759 --> 00:01:04,359 I love talking to the two of y'all. Thank you. We just 14 00:01:04,799 --> 00:01:11,040 spent far too many minutes off air catching up and there's so much to talk 15 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:12,480 about, and we better record some of this stuff. I'll tell you the 16 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:18,959 conversation all Fair might have been a better podcast. Max start by reminding her 17 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:23,680 viewers about your professional role as a working CSI. I am a crime scene 18 00:01:23,719 --> 00:01:30,159 investigator for a Metro Atlanta police department, still active. Love my job, 19 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:34,400 Love my department. I'm also the director of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute, 20 00:01:34,159 --> 00:01:38,159 and I still work with Karen Greer on CSI Atlanta, and I have 21 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:45,280 recently added, as you mentioned, podcasting to my repertoire, which is a 22 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:48,760 little usual for me and a little out of my wheelhouse. But so far 23 00:01:48,879 --> 00:01:53,280 I've really enjoyed it. I love the fact that you've become a podcaster. 24 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:57,959 See Kristin Dilley says everybody should become a podcaster, and she helped talk me 25 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:01,200 into it. Of course, then I got to turn the tables and say, 26 00:02:01,439 --> 00:02:05,439 okay, i'll do a podcast on true crime. Kristin Dilly, if 27 00:02:05,519 --> 00:02:08,520 you'll do a podcast with me on true crime. And look how brilliant that 28 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:15,319 turned out. Thank you. Kristin doesn't know this, by the way, 29 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:19,879 I'm just gonna mention this. We're going to cross over a million downloads in 30 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:24,360 sometime around the first of March. I think, according to my calculations, 31 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:31,520 wows. Anyway, we'll announce that officially, but I just every once in 32 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:35,080 a while i'll check that. We don't think about that stuff very often. 33 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:37,439 But last night I had a couple of minutes and I went out on in 34 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:40,360 the host tells you how many downloads you have? And I did some math 35 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:43,960 and I was like, and I said to Pamela, my partner, I 36 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:46,960 think we're going to cross over a million downloads. We're at nine hundred and 37 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:53,520 something thousand as of last night. We were at nine hundred thousand, five 38 00:02:53,680 --> 00:03:00,199 hundred ninety eight downloads last night before party. Yeah, so something to talk 39 00:03:00,199 --> 00:03:05,639 about. Tell us about zone tepping. The title came about because in Atlanta 40 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:10,039 there are six police zones, and back in the day before pagers and before 41 00:03:10,159 --> 00:03:13,919 cell phones, if we wanted to get together, we would say, hey, 42 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:16,919 your core group of people, your real true buddies, let's meet its 43 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:21,000 zone seven. And we would know what that would mean for our group, 44 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:25,360 our particular bar. And so it's somewhere between what y'all know as choir practice 45 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:29,919 and what you know as the war room. So we would generally do his 46 00:03:30,039 --> 00:03:34,560 own seven. If we needed feedback about something, whether or not somebody should 47 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:38,080 take the sergeant's exam, whether or not they had something on this case that 48 00:03:38,599 --> 00:03:42,319 somebody could think of to help move it in some way, or getting together 49 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:46,280 and sitting down and really going over a cold case. So for me, 50 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:53,240 Zone seven are those people that I can trust without hesitation, those people that 51 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:55,599 have your back, those people that cheer for you, those people that tell 52 00:03:55,639 --> 00:04:00,280 you the truth and the real truth. If you're out a lie and you're 53 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:02,199 out of line, if you're off track, you're off track, and they 54 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:05,719 bring you back because they truly care about you. So you know, not 55 00:04:05,879 --> 00:04:12,120 everybody's in your zone Heaven. You may even have a person that is a 56 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,360 friend. You would go and help them if they run out of gas, 57 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:18,360 but they're not in Zone seven. It's a very small, select, serious 58 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:23,600 froup of people to you. And so that's why I thought it'll be important 59 00:04:23,639 --> 00:04:27,720 to call it zone seven because the people that I'm going to highlight and come 60 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:30,720 as experts, they are in my zone seven. So I thought that's how 61 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:33,759 we'll do it. You pick the people closest to you, and you trust 62 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,480 what they're telling you to do on these cases, and you trust it they 63 00:04:36,519 --> 00:04:41,680 have not only the best interests in mind for you, but these families and 64 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:45,879 ultimately the cases. So that's why I did it that way. I think 65 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:47,800 I'm speaking for both of us here when we say that you're in our zone 66 00:04:47,879 --> 00:04:51,959 seven for sure. Oh likewise, Sugar, no question about it, no 67 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:58,439 question. And I'll give you a story. I'm driving with my husband from 68 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:02,959 Atlanta to upstate New York for my niece's wedding. We are having a great 69 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:06,879 time all the way up and just having a wonderful time. When we get 70 00:05:06,959 --> 00:05:11,639 up there, we're leaving to come all the way back home. And it 71 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:15,680 happens to be our anniversary weekend as well, so we're staying at all these 72 00:05:15,759 --> 00:05:20,519 fabulous different airbnb type places. Yeah, and on the way back, our 73 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:26,560 car breaks down. Bill Thomas reaches out to me and says, where are 74 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:30,319 you. I'll come get you. You can stay at the house. What 75 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:35,240 I remember this, Yeah, we were very concerned, very excited about the 76 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:40,480 wedding, and then the car breaks down, which is not convenient, yes, 77 00:05:40,639 --> 00:05:43,680 but it wasn't like I was twenty minutes from him either, y'all. 78 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:46,439 I want you to understand, so just wonderful, Like he said, he 79 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:50,439 was concerned, what can I do? Can I help if y'all fly back 80 00:05:50,439 --> 00:05:53,879 to Atlantic because I had to come back to work. I'd already been off 81 00:05:53,879 --> 00:05:57,319 a week. So we flew back home and we were going to fly back 82 00:05:57,399 --> 00:05:59,639 up to get the car and Bill say, hey, I can go get 83 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:01,639 the car. Haven't waiting at the house, and I'm like, this is 84 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:06,480 too much. So again that Zone seven, those people. I recently saw 85 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:11,000 a thing with Jamie Lee Curtis, who I love, and it was some 86 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:16,759 award show where somebody that she was working with won the award. But Jamie 87 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:20,439 Lee Curtis is jumping up with her arms in the air. She's just screaming, 88 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:27,000 that's who you want? Who's clapping for me? Who's that excited for 89 00:06:27,079 --> 00:06:30,000 me? She didn't win it. I don't even know if Jamie Lee was 90 00:06:30,079 --> 00:06:32,959 up for an award that you would call from that picture that she had won 91 00:06:33,079 --> 00:06:39,399 it. And so those are the people I'm talking about. So little short 92 00:06:39,439 --> 00:06:42,399 story, but let you know that, Yeah, it's absolutely y'all are in 93 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:45,879 my Zone seven, no doubt about it. I love the Zone seven name 94 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:47,800 even more now that you gave us a little bit of the backstory. That 95 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:53,480 is so cool and I think you have their own zone seven and cultivated. 96 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:58,839 And even if it's one person, if you've got one best friend, just 97 00:06:59,319 --> 00:07:03,959 really true, solid, loyal, devoted, ride or die, you're good. 98 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:09,439 If you've got two or three, you are beyond blast to me. 99 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:13,560 And if you've got more than that, you're just living in Just gold is 100 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:16,360 all I can tell you. So, Mac, tell us, what was 101 00:07:16,399 --> 00:07:19,959 the reason that you decided to start this podcast? You, as you mentioned 102 00:07:19,959 --> 00:07:24,360 before, you were very busy, and I knew that CSA Atlanta, for 103 00:07:24,399 --> 00:07:28,040 example, has been massively successful, So why would you add more to your 104 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:30,120 plate? What made you decide, you know what, let me podcast you. 105 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:34,639 There's somebody in my zone seven that came to me and said, I 106 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:39,040 think it's important that you do it. I think you've got some stories that 107 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:43,319 need to be told, and this was the game changer. I will help 108 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:46,399 you do it. And I said, if you will help, because this 109 00:07:46,519 --> 00:07:48,879 is not my area, those of y'all that are in my zone seven. 110 00:07:48,959 --> 00:07:56,639 No, I'm not real techy. My children laugh because I can't even get 111 00:07:56,680 --> 00:08:03,000 to Netflix on our own TV, having a microphone and having a downloaded guest 112 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:07,040 rooms and I don't even know. I can't do all that. So I 113 00:08:07,079 --> 00:08:11,199 said yes to this person because I do trust this person, and I thought, 114 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:13,639 this person is not going to set me up to fail or embarrass me. 115 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:18,560 And if I listen to them, I think maybe I can do this, 116 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:20,920 even if it's for four months, even if it's for a year. 117 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:24,560 I don't know that I could do it for a long period of time. 118 00:08:24,879 --> 00:08:28,480 Sure, there are some stories that I would like to have out there forever 119 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:31,319 for people to say, Hey, this is boots on the ground, how 120 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:33,960 she does it. Maybe I could learn something from her if it's a brand 121 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:37,080 new detective. But that person that said they would help me was Nancy Grace. 122 00:08:37,879 --> 00:08:41,919 Wow, that don't know. Nancy was my prosecutor back in the day 123 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:46,440 when I was first assigned to the Major Case Division through the Crime Commission, 124 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:50,720 and we were both in our twenties and baby, we had so much fun 125 00:08:50,799 --> 00:08:56,080 in Atlanta and generous and welcoming and never made you feel stupid. She would 126 00:08:56,159 --> 00:09:01,200 walk you through why you needed a second search warrant if there was a detached 127 00:09:01,279 --> 00:09:05,759 garage. I know she saved the case then because we had a search warrant 128 00:09:05,759 --> 00:09:09,360 and we thought that just covered the whole property, covers just the house. 129 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:13,960 The address you get the garage was separate, so y'all hold this scene and 130 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:18,279 go get another search warrant. So things like that. She's been so good 131 00:09:18,279 --> 00:09:20,799 to me, and she doesn't want any acknowledgment. She doesn't even want people 132 00:09:20,879 --> 00:09:24,960 to know we know each other, because she always says if I'm on her 133 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:28,639 show, she wants people to know it's because of me, because friends, 134 00:09:28,799 --> 00:09:35,039 which I appreciate, but I also understand and I want people to hear me 135 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:37,639 say this. How many crime scene investigators are there out there in the world. 136 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:41,519 She could have any of them on her show. So she is a 137 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:46,039 loyal friend. She is a good friend. My career has a whole different 138 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:48,600 level because I know that child. And I'll tell y'all a funny story. 139 00:09:48,879 --> 00:09:52,639 I was at the second or third crime con, I think the second one, 140 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:56,759 and I'm standing with a group of people after my session because they had 141 00:09:56,759 --> 00:10:01,440 some questions and those maybe fifteen or two only people, and I was answering 142 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:05,480 none the best I could. And I didn't know these folks, and this 143 00:10:05,519 --> 00:10:09,240 woman walks up to me, interrupts me and says, I know you, 144 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:13,960 and so I look at her. I've never seen her before, and I 145 00:10:13,039 --> 00:10:16,320 have an iddic memory for faces. I've never seen her before in my life. 146 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:24,279 She said, you're that woman that rides Nancy Grace's coattails. Oh my 147 00:10:24,399 --> 00:10:30,799 god. So immediately I'm like, okay, this could go left or right 148 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:33,600 for me. And I thought, dude, I just don't cuss her. 149 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:35,639 And then I thought, what good is that going to do? And then 150 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:39,960 no, I'm just gonna tell her the truth. I'm gonna flat tell this 151 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,960 woman the truth. So I looked right at her in front of all these 152 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:46,279 people that are now staring at me, and I said, you damn right, 153 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:56,000 what possible position would I play if you have Nancy grets? So then 154 00:10:56,039 --> 00:11:00,559 the next year, when I was at Crime Can, I told that story 155 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:03,840 and I followed up, I'm on stage and I just told that story and 156 00:11:03,879 --> 00:11:05,559 everybody laughed a chorus. Take damn right, and I said, I'm gonna 157 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:09,039 tell y'all. Right Now, Nancy Grace calls me today and said, hey, 158 00:11:09,039 --> 00:11:11,240 we're done with true crime. We're now doing porn. Got it? 159 00:11:11,279 --> 00:11:15,879 Because that's who she is to me. She would not hurt me in any 160 00:11:15,879 --> 00:11:20,840 way. She never has. She is only highlighted everything that I've ever tried 161 00:11:20,879 --> 00:11:24,679 to do. She's only helped me. She's shown up places, She's given 162 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:28,600 speeches for me. I had a parent that was very ill. Nancy was 163 00:11:28,639 --> 00:11:31,000 there for me the whole time. When I had returned to the courthouse after 164 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:37,200 losing my mother, she picks me up for lunch, takes me to Marry 165 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:39,639 Max, which was our place, and she said, what do you need 166 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:43,080 from me? Can I possibly do? And that's never done. She's thrown 167 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:46,960 me baby showers. And she's that person. She's not just a TV true 168 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:52,399 crime icon. She is the most down the earth loyal right there when you 169 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:56,600 need her person. And she's been that way since I was twenty four and 170 00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:05,879 I'm fifty seven, fifty eight I am. I'll tell you that in her 171 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:09,679 loyals. Ever, one thing I'll add about Nancy Grace. Of course I 172 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:13,159 met Nancy Grace through you, and it was at one of those crime cons. 173 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:18,720 And you do something which Kristen and I both love, which is your 174 00:12:18,879 --> 00:12:22,159 connector. You've said to me, you need to know so and so, 175 00:12:22,519 --> 00:12:24,240 or you need to talk to so and so, or you need to learn 176 00:12:24,279 --> 00:12:31,279 about this new technology we were talking about Jared Bradley and the m VAC machine, 177 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:35,480 which is used to solve so many cases. Basically, it's a high 178 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:39,360 tech vacuum cleaner. I think it's the way Jared puts it. But for 179 00:12:39,399 --> 00:12:41,840 instance, you said to me at one of those crime cons, you need 180 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:46,360 to meet Nancy Grace, and a minute later you steered me over and introduced 181 00:12:46,399 --> 00:12:50,720 me. And one of the things I quickly realized is that there's two Nancy 182 00:12:50,759 --> 00:12:54,679 Graces. The Nancy Grace we see on television. And I don't know if 183 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:58,080 she'd accept this, but this is my point of view. She kind of 184 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:05,440 plays a character on TV, which is she's very aggressive and outspoken. She's 185 00:13:05,519 --> 00:13:13,159 brilliantly smart, but she's tough. But then off the air she's completely different. 186 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:16,200 And you introduced her to me. Amy to her and you said, 187 00:13:16,279 --> 00:13:18,919 miss Bill Thomas from Mclonia Parkway murders, and you gave her the quick overview, 188 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:26,759 and her interaction with me was so lovely. She's a completely different person 189 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:31,000 off the air. Here's what I tell people. Bill, you have a 190 00:13:31,039 --> 00:13:37,080 professional boxer that has never put his hands on his family or children or friends. 191 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:41,039 There's that switch. He knows what his job is. His job is 192 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:45,879 to get in that ring and beat the daylights out of that other person. 193 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:48,879 But when he goes home, he's playing with the kitten, he's cuddling with 194 00:13:48,919 --> 00:13:54,279 the baby, he's loving and tender with his wife. Nancy Grace knows her 195 00:13:54,360 --> 00:14:01,120 job. And if you ask her, does this person deserve the death penalty, 196 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:03,720 She's going to go after that person because that person killed a twelve year 197 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:07,679 old little girl. But when she meets somebody and it's her one on one, 198 00:14:09,159 --> 00:14:11,759 she's Nancy. She's not Nancy Gray. She's not in that ring right 199 00:14:11,759 --> 00:14:16,960 now. He flat knows her job, Sugar, trust me. So let's 200 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:20,639 get back to the Zone seven for a second. And I want to get 201 00:14:20,679 --> 00:14:24,080 you to talk about the first case that you covered. And I'm so glad 202 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:26,840 that it was the first thing that you covered because it was a case that 203 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,559 I've got very interested in when I heard you speak about it at Savannah CRIMEXPO, 204 00:14:31,799 --> 00:14:35,919 and that is the case of Tammy Jackson. Can you tell us a 205 00:14:35,919 --> 00:14:39,960 little bit about the Tammy Jackson case and then why it's so important to you, 206 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:43,799 important enough that you started the podcast with it. I came to know 207 00:14:43,919 --> 00:14:50,720 this case because I was just flipping and scrolling one night on social media and 208 00:14:50,919 --> 00:14:56,200 this person had written one paragraph and in that paragraph they said, seventeen year 209 00:14:56,200 --> 00:15:01,159 old Tammy Jackson was stabbed one hundred and thirty times hog tide and run over 210 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:07,399 by a car on Hudgetson Island, Georgia. That just knocked me out for 211 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:09,720 a couple of reasons. One, how have I never heard about it? 212 00:15:09,759 --> 00:15:13,200 If it happened in Georgia, Even if it's a case I haven't worked, 213 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:18,000 typically somebody will send it to me, or I'll be somewhere with colleagues where 214 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:20,480 somebody says, hey, I've got this case. Tell me what you think. 215 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:24,399 I've never heard of this case, and I just didn't know how that 216 00:15:24,559 --> 00:15:28,480 was possible. Nancy had never covered it. I'd never heard about it with 217 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,360 c SI Atlanta. I'd never heard about it. It confidences that I go 218 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:37,840 to. And then I thought, Hudginson Island. I know all the beaches 219 00:15:37,919 --> 00:15:39,559 in Georgia, and I've been to Tybee, I've been to Jekyl, I've 220 00:15:39,559 --> 00:15:43,320 been to Saint Simon's, I've been a little Saint Simmons. I never heard 221 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:46,559 of Hudgetson Island, and I'm thinking this has got to be a TYPHO. 222 00:15:46,879 --> 00:15:50,000 Then when I researched it, it said Savannah, and I was like Oh 223 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:54,080 my lord, it's a river island, no wonder, I'd never heard of 224 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:58,679 it. I thought hog tide, and then I researched one. I found 225 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:03,399 one news article. News article said she was last seeing around ten DM at 226 00:16:03,519 --> 00:16:08,039 night. Found by seven seven thirty the following morning, so she wasn't out 227 00:16:08,039 --> 00:16:11,519 in the elements long. And I thought, if they hog tighter, that 228 00:16:11,639 --> 00:16:17,039 rope is the ticket, as well as her clothing. But that rope I 229 00:16:17,039 --> 00:16:18,799 couldn't get out of my mind. So I thought, I've got to find 230 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:23,360 this families. Here's one of those divine intervention moments. For some reason, 231 00:16:23,679 --> 00:16:26,679 I couldn't, of course, find the family anywhere, but I went to 232 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:33,559 find my grave. On the grave, her sisters were named. I've never 233 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:37,360 seen that before in my life, not his star. That seems unusual, 234 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:42,679 very unusual. But there they were, and I was able to find both 235 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:48,120 of them on social media quickly and reached out to both of them. Shockingly, 236 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:51,720 I tell people, I got no response because they probably thought, who 237 00:16:51,799 --> 00:16:53,879 is this crazy person? But I waited a little bit and then I reached 238 00:16:53,919 --> 00:16:59,120 out to Stacy one more time, and I said, I know you don't 239 00:16:59,159 --> 00:17:02,559 know me, but if you would just listen to me for five minute, 240 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:04,920 and if you could get me to the detective, I think I can help. 241 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:08,839 Possibly. She called me and then she told me who the lieutenant was 242 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:12,079 over the case, and I said, I'm coming to Savannah. I want 243 00:17:12,079 --> 00:17:15,759 to meet with him in person. So she met me at the hotel and 244 00:17:15,799 --> 00:17:22,640 then the lieutenant met and I laid out what I thought would be a great 245 00:17:22,799 --> 00:17:25,880 course of action, and I said, it's gonna cost y'all money, but 246 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:27,359 we can help there, and he's, yeah, I don't think we're gonna 247 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,920 do any of that. And I was disappointed, but I told Stacy, 248 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:36,359 I said, listen, if I know anything about cold cases, that detective's 249 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:40,279 gonna change. And when it does call me, it wasn't too long cause 250 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:42,799 me. She says, we got a new detective. I said, who 251 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:47,720 is it? She said, Tara Smith. And I thought to myself, 252 00:17:48,039 --> 00:17:52,400 it's a girl. She's gonna see this different women. It's not positive or 253 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,319 negative. And I want to be very clear with everybody. Listen to me. 254 00:17:55,519 --> 00:17:59,119 If you put together any kind of task for us, you need old 255 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:04,160 young, different sexual orientation, different religions, different races. You get every 256 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:08,119 single possible person in that room you can, because they're gonna come at this 257 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:14,160 thing in a three to sixty that you couldn't have otherwise. They're gonna all 258 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:18,960 see it different. So I thought, by changing the gender, we're gonna 259 00:18:19,039 --> 00:18:23,279 change this case. And that's what happened because Tara Smith, buddy, she 260 00:18:23,519 --> 00:18:30,960 is smart, she's devoted, she's funny, she's tireless. She took a 261 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:34,839 hold of this thing and liked Bill first time I ever mentioned the impact to 262 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:37,720 Bill. The next thing I know is a picture of him and Jared Bradley 263 00:18:37,759 --> 00:18:45,799 together. And Kara took everything that I outlined, called every person that I 264 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,839 told her to call, and the next thing we knew this thing was in 265 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:52,720 motion, but we still needed money. And Kristen, that's where you and 266 00:18:52,759 --> 00:18:56,880 I have talked about before. I love people, and love wins. Love 267 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:00,759 wins every time. But you enter a call Marino in this thing. Yes, 268 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:06,960 Corl changed. So that was one of our questions. So how do 269 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:12,759 Carl and his lovely wife Alona Marino get involved? Okay, you talk about 270 00:19:12,759 --> 00:19:18,160 two beautiful people inside. Now they're young, they're sexy, they're fun, 271 00:19:18,519 --> 00:19:22,839 they're famous, they're like Walt and Igh. You know what I mean. 272 00:19:22,839 --> 00:19:26,319 I could see it. Yeah, it's like looking in the mirror. Knew 273 00:19:26,319 --> 00:19:30,839 that this thing was going to cost thousands of dollars. So I called Carl 274 00:19:32,079 --> 00:19:34,599 and I said, look, I've got an idea. I need to raise 275 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:40,039 some money for this officer in this family. February's coming up, so I 276 00:19:40,079 --> 00:19:42,720 thought we could do a fun little date night for people. And what would 277 00:19:42,759 --> 00:19:48,119 be more fun than hanging out with this beautiful couple and letting Carl talk about 278 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:55,079 behind the scenes of Homicide Hunter. So he's got fantastic stories of Joe Kenda, 279 00:19:55,279 --> 00:19:57,400 how he came to get on the show, where she is a gas 280 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:02,279 spot here and there, she's a nurse once, she's a police officer once, 281 00:20:02,319 --> 00:20:03,759 and she is so beautiful y'all. And he said, we're in. 282 00:20:04,759 --> 00:20:10,039 So they come to Atlanta and they do a two night event Friday night and 283 00:20:10,079 --> 00:20:12,799 Saturday night where couples or anybody, groups of friends, they all came. 284 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:18,720 We were sold out just like that. They tell all these wonderful stories. 285 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:22,920 He even brings other guests that are on the show that happen to live in 286 00:20:23,039 --> 00:20:27,039 or around Atlanta. So then they had all these other people they knew from 287 00:20:27,079 --> 00:20:33,519 the show. It was fantastic. Raised four thousand dollars we needed five. 288 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:38,200 We got the other thousand dollars pretty quickly after that to start the testing on 289 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:42,599 the items. And let me just tell you this part if you aren't already 290 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:47,680 a fan of Carl and his lovely bride Alona. Not only did they come 291 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:51,079 to Atlanta, so I told them, I'm gonna get your hotel room, 292 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:53,640 pay for your gasoline because they wanted to drive and get your mills and all 293 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:57,240 that. They said, okay, that's fair, no problem. They check 294 00:20:57,319 --> 00:21:03,319 in. Everything's good, everything's roll. They come to the event, they 295 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:06,200 do the first night, they do, the second night, they're about to 296 00:21:06,319 --> 00:21:07,640 go back to the hotel, and then they're gonna leave earlier. The next 297 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:12,359 morning, Alona comes up to me and hands me a chet from them, 298 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:17,519 and I said, what are you doing? We should be doing for you. 299 00:21:17,519 --> 00:21:19,359 You don't come out of pocket, You're doing this for all of us. 300 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:23,599 She would after meeting the family and listening to Detective Smith, we want 301 00:21:23,599 --> 00:21:29,160 to do more and had to me a personal chet. Wow. I look 302 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:33,720 at the cold case bank stavement or whatever, and I called Carl and I 303 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,319 said, did y'all have a bob with the hotel? Because I don't have 304 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:38,720 a bill. But we took care of it. They would take no money, 305 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:44,119 not for their travel, and that's when gasoline was really going crazy. 306 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,960 They would no money for gas, no money for food, no money for 307 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:55,160 the hotel, nothing, nothing. That's great. So that's what love wins. 308 00:21:55,599 --> 00:21:59,640 And I tell my own children all the time. Like even nine eleven, 309 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:06,319 for example, a handful of people did a horrible thing on that very 310 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:14,079 day of million people lined up to give blood. Love winds. So people 311 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:18,440 ask sometimes how do you not burn out? How do you not just walk 312 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,519 away from all this? And my question is, how the hell could. 313 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:27,400 I'm surrounded by people like Bill and Kristen and Carl and Alona and all these 314 00:22:27,519 --> 00:22:33,839 just incredible people, Nancy Grace and all the people at crime con How do 315 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:37,880 you walk away from literally heroes? And even at my own department, I'm 316 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:42,880 surrounded by people that run toward danger. I'm surrounded by people that will every 317 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:45,359 now and then say, Matthew, stay right here a minute and we'll clear 318 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,880 that scene before I get to it. I ain't trying to leave them. 319 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:55,640 What are you ultimately seeking to do with your podcast? Are you reason awareness? 320 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:59,119 Are you solving cases? He's starting a conversation. Are you doing all 321 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,960 of the above, What is your what's your final goal for this? Would 322 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:07,359 you say the first reason? In the back of my mind, I thought 323 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,839 it's important to do it. I think is something that I think I've probably 324 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:15,680 said to a lot of people. I think some of these cases being on 325 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,359 tape are worthy of being in the Smithsonian. So when you hear like music 326 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,759 museums and you can go and you can hear Elvis and you can go and 327 00:23:22,839 --> 00:23:26,319 hear Frank Sinatra and all of this music from the twenties and the thirties, 328 00:23:26,319 --> 00:23:30,519 and how it paints this picture of America. I think if we look at 329 00:23:30,559 --> 00:23:36,039 crime, you can study the history of America through crime as well. Whether 330 00:23:36,079 --> 00:23:40,319 it's prohibition, whether it's the American Mada, whatever it is. I think 331 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:45,440 it is imperative that we put on tape what it was like policing before crack, 332 00:23:45,559 --> 00:23:48,599 what it was like for radios, what it was like policing on horseback. 333 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:52,839 That's important. And I think y'all got a way of talking, Nancy's 334 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:59,200 got a way of talking. There's all these whether it's crime junkie or whoever, 335 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:06,000 there's literally hundreds and hundreds of people that are collecting this information that needs 336 00:24:06,039 --> 00:24:08,880 to be highlighted. So that was one thing I thought. The second thing 337 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:14,319 I didn't want to do it if I couldn't help solve a case, I 338 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:18,200 don't want to just tell the story once upon a time. I know you 339 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:22,039 can be directly involved in helping solve this, whether it's sending a private lab 340 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:26,799 money, whether it's supporting the family, whether it's putting the bolo out, 341 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:32,799 whatever it is. You can't. Civilians solved crime all the time, DC 342 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:37,079 sniper. That car was spotted by a civilian. The Zodiac puzzle was solved 343 00:24:37,079 --> 00:24:41,200 by a civilian. So if they solved prime all the time, what have 344 00:24:41,319 --> 00:24:45,160 I not thought of? Instant message me and tell me and I don't freaking 345 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,079 try. So I thought that was going to be a staple that I'm gonna 346 00:24:48,079 --> 00:24:52,759 try to solve these things. And then the other thing is maybe you've got 347 00:24:52,759 --> 00:24:56,799 a brand new detective that doesn't know what parabond is and doesn't understand phenotype it. 348 00:24:57,319 --> 00:25:00,119 And if I'm talking about a case that every nobody already knows about, 349 00:25:00,559 --> 00:25:04,440 maybe that detective here's something. Wait a minute, whose friend seem bird old? 350 00:25:04,839 --> 00:25:08,559 I need to meet her? Yes you do, because you don't need 351 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:12,119 me. I'm going to try to connect you to these people. I'm just 352 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:21,319 the middleman, or as Walt says, I'm just a pimp. So I'm 353 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:23,920 a pimp. I'm like, oh, I will wear that proudly. I 354 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:29,000 do think taking me out of its important. Like I tell the young detectives 355 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,599 of my own department, take any number out of my rolodecks. You won't 356 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:37,279 because when I retire, you don't need to have to contact me to get 357 00:25:37,319 --> 00:25:40,200 to the right person. You should already have that person in your fault, 358 00:25:40,519 --> 00:25:45,440 right, take it, take it and any other thing was I thought again, 359 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:49,119 some of these families sometimes they feel like their story hasten told the way. 360 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:53,359 They won't because they have thirty seconds or they have just sound bites to 361 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:59,640 tell a story. Sugar, you got an hour talk tell it, and 362 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,319 I thought that was important. So that's the reason you're listening to Mind over 363 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:14,599 Murder. Will be right back after this word from our sponsors, We're back 364 00:26:14,599 --> 00:26:18,359 here at mindover Murder. We had talked to Paul Wagner's a long time reporter 365 00:26:18,559 --> 00:26:23,799 in Washington, DC about his podcast series American Nightmare, and one of the 366 00:26:23,839 --> 00:26:27,799 things that he talked about was how important he thought it was to get the 367 00:26:29,079 --> 00:26:33,519 word out about various unsolved cases or how they came to be solved, and 368 00:26:33,559 --> 00:26:37,799 he's focused on the Washington DC area because that's where he's been a television reporter 369 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,559 and radio reporter. One of the things he loves about the podcasting format, 370 00:26:41,599 --> 00:26:45,119 and this is something Kristen and I have figured out two now that we're into 371 00:26:45,279 --> 00:26:49,039 season four of Mind over Murder, which is hard to believe. It allows 372 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:55,720 you to get into more depth about the conversation about the details of a case, 373 00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:00,200 to just drill down deep with an expert like yourself, and you just 374 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,960 don't have that opportunity. And other important news media, whether it's newspapers, 375 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:10,279 television, radio, they are limiting you for space. And this is what 376 00:27:10,319 --> 00:27:12,960 Paul talked about on the podcast with us a couple of weeks ago. Whereas 377 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:18,880 with the podcast and then he does multiple episodes, particularly on these important cases 378 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,839 in Washington, d C. It allows him to really walk you through how 379 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:30,720 what happened happened. Absolutely, not just that they're sometimes limiting you on space. 380 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,920 Sometimes they limit you on topic. They will say, we want you 381 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:38,400 to talk about blame, and that leaves out so much that you might want 382 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:42,200 to discuss if they don't want you to, and it also doesn't give you 383 00:27:42,519 --> 00:27:48,160 time to say yes, I think law enforcement is looking at this for this 384 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:52,319 reason, but it doesn't give you the opportunity to say but they should also 385 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:56,880 be doing two, three, four or five and six, which again can 386 00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:00,839 help somebody else. Like people ask me, why would you Auncy Gray's go 387 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,720 to a Ruben now and be talking about Natalie Holloway one because she has gotten 388 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:10,240 no justice yet in two By walking through what went right and what went wrong 389 00:28:10,279 --> 00:28:15,000 in that case can help other people. There are still people that do not 390 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,440 understand that your American consulant is not going to help you if somebody you love 391 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:22,799 goes missing, your embassy is not going to be able to help you. 392 00:28:22,839 --> 00:28:26,680 If somebody you love goes missing. Most people don't know, Hey, when 393 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,160 does my passport expire? They got to get up go find it and look 394 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,799 at it. They don't know. So if you've got to love one that 395 00:28:33,839 --> 00:28:37,640 goes missing in another country, can you even get there? Do you have 396 00:28:37,839 --> 00:28:41,799 a passport that does not expired? Do you have money? Do you have 397 00:28:41,839 --> 00:28:45,119 a room on your credit card to get an airline ticket to get open there? 398 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,160 Most people would be a little hand strong to do that, and that's 399 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:52,440 the reason to go back and talk about it before. Again, somebody sends 400 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:56,920 their kid to another country on spring break or for graduation, you got to 401 00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,920 think about that before it happened. Let's which over for a minute to the 402 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:06,680 case that is on everybody's minds, even the people who don't normally follow true 403 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,279 crime, and that of course is the case with the Idaho for we were 404 00:29:10,319 --> 00:29:15,000 just commenting off the air that you're everywhere talking about this case and we're thrilled 405 00:29:15,039 --> 00:29:18,200 to see that. Can you talk a little bit about what you find intriguing 406 00:29:18,319 --> 00:29:25,440 in that case From the perspective of a CSI who this case, Here's how 407 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:30,759 I've tried to make people understand as a crime scene investigator, at crime did 408 00:29:30,799 --> 00:29:34,200 not start inside that home. So for me, I would have wanted to 409 00:29:34,279 --> 00:29:38,559 spend a lot of time outside before I ever go in. That killer had 410 00:29:38,599 --> 00:29:42,559 one way in and one way out. If he drove, if he walked, 411 00:29:42,599 --> 00:29:45,920 he had more area to come from, but it was still limited because 412 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:51,000 he would have had to part which would also make people see his vehicle and 413 00:29:51,039 --> 00:29:53,599 then him walk away from it. Because again, people know their area, 414 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:57,079 and they know their roommates and their friends vehicles. So if there's a car 415 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,960 that doesn't fit, that car is going to stick out. Footprints, obviously, 416 00:30:02,279 --> 00:30:04,400 a trail of blood. Obviously, those are the things that I would 417 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:08,720 want to concentrate on before I got anywhere near that house. The windows, 418 00:30:08,759 --> 00:30:14,440 the doors, screens, garbage, anything that I could see, And I 419 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:18,680 would probably take a hundred photographs before I ever went in the house. That 420 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:23,319 house is a crime scene by itself. Each room's a crime scene by itself. 421 00:30:25,319 --> 00:30:29,559 Each body is a crime scene by itself. So I would have one 422 00:30:29,759 --> 00:30:33,759 to concentrate on the house. Then each individual bedroom, whether the killer went 423 00:30:33,799 --> 00:30:37,880 in it or not, I would concentrate on. Then the rooms where the 424 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:42,160 murders occurred. I would concentrate on solely for a little bit. Then each 425 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:49,599 individual body where they're placed, their injuries, their defensive wounds, their clothing, 426 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:53,839 everything. So if you start to look at it like that and you 427 00:30:53,920 --> 00:31:00,400 remind yourself of doctor Jem McDonald, I would want every single wound swabbed so 428 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,759 that I would know who was killed in what order. So if you've got 429 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:08,839 victim one only their DNA, Victim two would have two DNA Victim one, 430 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:14,960 and there's victim three would have victim one and two and their's and then finally 431 00:31:15,079 --> 00:31:18,400 victim four would have victim one, two, three, and four. I 432 00:31:18,559 --> 00:31:22,640 never thought about this before. This is very interesting thought about it that way. 433 00:31:22,319 --> 00:31:26,039 Yeah, So then once I know who's killed in what order, then 434 00:31:26,079 --> 00:31:33,000 that's going to tell me again the target of this perpetrator. So I believe 435 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:37,440 this is personally. I believe he started on the third floor. I think 436 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,799 there's evidence to that. I thought back from Jump Street, and I said 437 00:31:40,839 --> 00:31:44,200 it on every newscast I was owned starting in week one and two. The 438 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:48,279 reason I thought that is there's no reason for him to go upstairs. Men 439 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:53,960 a to B people. Generally speaking, there are some that are not, 440 00:31:55,279 --> 00:32:00,720 but of the time men are A to B people. I think what you 441 00:32:00,759 --> 00:32:04,799 mean is men are simple creatures. No, not at all. I think 442 00:32:04,799 --> 00:32:07,640 there's genius in it. Oh, okay, there are. And here's the 443 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:13,960 reason. If a man is somewhere and he's been in the same clothes for 444 00:32:14,039 --> 00:32:16,519 eight hours and Miss October comes up to him and says, hey, I 445 00:32:16,559 --> 00:32:21,519 want to have sex with you right now, he just takes this clothes off 446 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,279 right. He knows, he thinks, he knows. His underwears ten years 447 00:32:23,279 --> 00:32:30,079 old he ain't rushed the teeth, but it's miss October. Okay. A 448 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:32,720 woman has Matthew McConaughey come up to her and says, hey, I want 449 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:37,759 to have sex to you right now. She'll be like fifteen minutes and she'll 450 00:32:37,759 --> 00:32:42,359 go, She'll go take a shower and freshen up. I'm gonna shave my 451 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,000 legs, I'm gonna fix my hair, I'm gonna throw some perfume everywhere. 452 00:32:45,119 --> 00:32:49,839 Women put roadblocks in front of themselves instead of saying, hell, yes, 453 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,559 get on them, neck and bong goes and let's get to it. So 454 00:32:54,119 --> 00:32:59,000 they approach crime differently as well, if that makes sense to you. So 455 00:32:59,119 --> 00:33:04,279 they're not gonna put obstacles in front of themselves, right unless an escape route, 456 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,519 and then that's not their control. So he's going to be in and 457 00:33:07,559 --> 00:33:12,279 out. He's gonna go where he wants to go. So when he goes 458 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:17,839 upstairs, he no longer has an exit correct, very important. Why would 459 00:33:17,839 --> 00:33:22,119 he do that to himself because his targets upstairs. The other thing that bothered 460 00:33:22,119 --> 00:33:27,440 me, Kayley was not supposed to be from what we read, Yes, 461 00:33:28,519 --> 00:33:32,440 okay, Kayley was not supposed to be there. Their car out front that's 462 00:33:32,519 --> 00:33:37,039 brand new with dealer tags still on it. Kayley only went there to show 463 00:33:37,079 --> 00:33:43,480 her friend Mattie the car. That means this person that has been stalking them 464 00:33:43,759 --> 00:33:47,279 and went by that house at least four times before he parked and went in 465 00:33:47,759 --> 00:33:53,319 the night of the murder, but he had stalked them twelve times before. 466 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:58,880 In fact, we're seeing that car before or Hattie, because only two things 467 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,240 are possible. Either he knew that was Kaylee's car and she was in there 468 00:34:02,279 --> 00:34:07,640 even though she had already moved out, or that was a car he didn't 469 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,199 recognize, didn't know who was in it, knew there was an additional person 470 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:15,559 in that house and didn't care. So again, this person is single focused. 471 00:34:15,599 --> 00:34:20,920 It's gonna be this night. So for me, Kayley's not supposed to 472 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,280 be there. He doesn't kill her dog. She's in a place he has 473 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:28,840 no exit. She's moving to Texas, so if she were the target, 474 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,559 he has to kill her now or never because she's leaping right So the sheath 475 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:37,159 is left up there. Again, that tells me they were the target. 476 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:42,960 Upstairs, Dylan, here's the commotion upstairs. Thanks. Kayley is playing with 477 00:34:43,079 --> 00:34:46,480 Murphy, her dog. What we now I believe she's here and is the 478 00:34:46,599 --> 00:34:52,639 murder, but she knows it's unusual enough. She remembers hearing it again, 479 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,800 that must be what I'm hearing, But it still made her concentrate about it. 480 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,440 Then she hears talking and she hears some body's here again. That tells 481 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:06,360 me he's on the third floor already. Then there's crime, Then there's the 482 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:12,159 struggle. Then she sees the person leaving through the slide glass door. She 483 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,719 sees him leaving. Then you know the murders upstairs have already happened. So 484 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:22,480 again, the target was on the third floor. That can't be happenschance that's 485 00:35:22,519 --> 00:35:29,320 targeted. That's deliberate, that's a movement A to B. If you had 486 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:35,199 to guess the victims on the second floor, who you believe are not necessarily 487 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:40,159 the primary targets. Correct. I believe that Why did he kill them? 488 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:47,280 Because Danna saw him and I think either through the door dash or her going 489 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:51,800 to the kitchen to get the food, or maybe she even heard her other 490 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,760 roommate open her door a couple of times, something that got her attention. 491 00:35:55,159 --> 00:35:59,559 Now again, think about it. You live in a house where you've got 492 00:35:59,559 --> 00:36:02,639 people low you and above you. You're used to noise, you're used to 493 00:36:02,679 --> 00:36:06,880 that doll, you're used to people walking up down the stairs with a shared 494 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:13,800 kitchen was different sounds, and both Dylan and Zanna zer rode in on it. 495 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:19,000 Both of them knew something is different, something's not right. When Zanna 496 00:36:19,079 --> 00:36:22,039 says, somebody's here, she's talking to Ethan. Now Ethan might be up, 497 00:36:22,079 --> 00:36:24,599 what are you talking about? What's going on that point? In order 498 00:36:24,639 --> 00:36:27,800 for him to get out, he's got to pass them. Well, if 499 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:31,079 he doesn't kill him, law enforcement's going to be notified immediately. So he's 500 00:36:31,159 --> 00:36:36,880 now in I've got to get away mode. I think, I think sadly 501 00:36:37,039 --> 00:36:42,239 and tragically, the two of them were collateral damage. So Zanna and Ethan, 502 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,599 who were on the second floor, are killed as he makes his way 503 00:36:45,679 --> 00:36:50,800 back down from the third floor where his primary target or targets were. That's 504 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,920 what I believe. And again I don't have a crystal ball. This is 505 00:36:53,960 --> 00:37:00,280 not some magic trick. I'm not clairvoyant. But again, if you look 506 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:06,079 at patterns, him going to the third floor first tells you why he entered 507 00:37:06,079 --> 00:37:08,880 that house. In my opinion, he never goes to the basement. There's 508 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:14,960 no reason too he doesn't kill Zanna and Ethan on the way in. Why 509 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:16,840 not? Why not get rid of them immediately? If that's your gold, 510 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:22,360 kill everybody the house because it wasn't his goal. And then I thought about 511 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,360 it that way. Wow, Mac. And then but then let's flip this 512 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:29,199 around. There's this intriguing question, and Kristen and I have talked about this 513 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:35,039 on the podcast. He walks right past Dylan, and she's actually close enough 514 00:37:35,079 --> 00:37:37,679 to him. Now it could be dark, but she's close enough to him 515 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:43,719 to give law enforcement a pretty good physical description. Athletic but not gigantic, 516 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:47,360 not super belt, bushy eyebrows, He's got the mask on the lower part 517 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:52,760 of his face. He appears to walk past her. Do you think he's 518 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:58,920 so focused on escape at that point that he doesn't see her, or that 519 00:37:59,039 --> 00:38:02,360 he lets her go because he's exhausted having killed four people. I realize I'm 520 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:06,519 hitting you with a lot. No, you're not. I think he literally 521 00:38:06,519 --> 00:38:09,159 didn't see her. There's a oh what do you call it? A neon 522 00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:15,760 sign the kitchen. If her bedroom is pitch flak and she cracks the door, 523 00:38:15,559 --> 00:38:20,880 she can see him because he's illuminated. She's not. I think there's 524 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:24,360 a real possibility. He never saw her. Plus, if he wasn't counting 525 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:30,519 on the second set of attacks, he is now when his mind scrambled, 526 00:38:30,679 --> 00:38:35,519 it is chaotic, right, Fine, he's not running. Dylan describes him 527 00:38:35,519 --> 00:38:39,920 as just walking. He's probably in a state of almost disbelief. What happened. 528 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:44,639 I went in here to do one thing. It wasn't what I thought 529 00:38:44,639 --> 00:38:46,159 it was going to be. The dog was in my way. I had 530 00:38:46,159 --> 00:38:50,239 to get the dog put somewhere because the dog was gonna follow me out and 531 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,800 maybe alert people. So he does what he does in that one bedroom to 532 00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:58,960 two people, and maybe he was counting on that. Maybe he wasn't. 533 00:38:59,039 --> 00:39:01,039 Maybe if he knew Dylan and it already moved out, maybe he thought she 534 00:39:01,119 --> 00:39:04,719 was in another room. But when he entered that room, he had no 535 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,840 choice. Now there's two of them in the same bed. But I think 536 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:10,239 he's the one that put Murphy in that room and shut the door. I 537 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:15,559 firmly believe that. I believe because of his own psyche, he did not 538 00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:20,880 harm that animal. And again that speaks to him. I didn't know why 539 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:23,599 that was relevant. I just knew that it was in another way that I 540 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:28,039 work, y'all, if I find something at a crime scene and I don't 541 00:39:28,079 --> 00:39:30,559 know how it fits, and it doesn't make sense to me. I take 542 00:39:30,639 --> 00:39:35,039 it. It may make sense later he become very clear later, or it 543 00:39:35,079 --> 00:39:40,000 may never have any connect. That dog surviving was critical to me, because 544 00:39:40,039 --> 00:39:44,119 otherwise, why not just cut his throat. He ain't gonna bar again't gonna 545 00:39:44,119 --> 00:39:46,199 bite me, he ain't gonna follow me. I didn't have that dog didn't 546 00:39:46,199 --> 00:39:52,880 have Beeca blood on him. Ironically, it almost appears that the suspect might 547 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:59,159 actually value the dog's life more than he valued for human beings. Okay, 548 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:04,199 so if he is not just a vegan, but some rabbit is out of 549 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,280 place, it's not just for health purposes. That answered my question as soon 550 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,840 as I found out he made people buy new pots and pans that it never 551 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:15,679 toudged animal meat. That's him. And listen, we all know folks that 552 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:21,639 if they're watching a movie and the woman is beat and slaughtered and whatever, 553 00:40:22,199 --> 00:40:25,159 but then the dog is kicked, react only to the dog being kicked. 554 00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:30,960 Ye hit that I totally understand where they're coming from. You sometimes have this 555 00:40:31,199 --> 00:40:37,280 kinship with an animal and they are totally dependent on you. They can't talk, 556 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:40,360 they can't defend themselves, so to harm something that is only loving and 557 00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:45,599 given, I get that, but they don't have the same reaction to woman 558 00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:49,280 that's been butchered. That may be part of his deal. And again that's 559 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:52,320 oude of my wheelhouse. I'm just saying I know it happens, and it 560 00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:55,280 wouldn't shock me if that's what's happening here. So when he tries to now 561 00:40:55,639 --> 00:41:00,960 maybe tell people I have no feelings and just this shale of a person, 562 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:06,599 that ain't true because you save that dog. Although the New York Times piece 563 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,800 that hit a week or so ago, there was a new article where they 564 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:15,519 were talking to people that knew him back in high school and college as well. 565 00:41:15,159 --> 00:41:22,639 It does sound like he has difficulty connecting with people or feeling empathy. 566 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:27,000 But like you said, that doesn't mean that he wouldn't love an animal, 567 00:41:27,039 --> 00:41:30,079 because our relationships with an animal, as you were pointing out, are very 568 00:41:30,119 --> 00:41:34,800 different than they are with people. It's a simpler relationship to start with. 569 00:41:35,559 --> 00:41:37,679 But think about it. For him, just like he's not going to be 570 00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:42,559 able to claim he didn't know right from wrong. Sure he does, he 571 00:41:42,679 --> 00:41:47,679 knew he knew right for wrong, but he also values life on some level, 572 00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:52,480 he understands. Whether he says the dog did not desire to be harmed, 573 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:57,400 but everybody else in the house did. It may be twisted and it 574 00:41:57,519 --> 00:42:02,119 may be so foreign to us, thankfully, but it's still true for him. 575 00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:06,920 So the only thing we're trying to do is understand him. For me, 576 00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:09,599 if this were my scene again and the blood came back to show, 577 00:42:09,639 --> 00:42:15,320 what I think it's gonna show eventually is the two girls upstairs were killed first, 578 00:42:15,199 --> 00:42:20,639 Kaylee and Maddie. Why. There has to be a reason. He 579 00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:22,960 had to know that was their bedroom. He had to know that he had 580 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:28,679 already watched him at least twelve times at least, but I'm sure it's one 581 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:32,000 that So why did they become the law enforcement either already has a good idea 582 00:42:32,159 --> 00:42:37,320 or I think they will eventually, because his phone, his computer, the 583 00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:39,360 items they found in their house. And that's another thing I want to be 584 00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:45,079 real clear about. That arrest half of David is a thumbnail of what they've 585 00:42:45,079 --> 00:42:51,559 got. So the things he searched on his computer, I believe he was 586 00:42:51,639 --> 00:42:57,840 so uber focused on this thing. Again since the August now August, September, 587 00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:00,559 October, November, this is all he's thinking about. You think about 588 00:43:00,599 --> 00:43:06,280 when you have planned something like that, whether it's a massive vacation trip or 589 00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:10,199 a wedding, whatever it is. You look at magazines, you google things, 590 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:15,480 you ask friends about, what's the best place you've ever been to in 591 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:20,519 Colorado? What's the best place you ate at in Nebraska. You're asking questions 592 00:43:20,519 --> 00:43:22,239 because that's all you can think about is this trip. But did you use 593 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:25,519 a flower girl? Would you have somebody under three in the wedding band or 594 00:43:25,599 --> 00:43:30,599 DJ that's what you're focused on. I see you in that apartment. He 595 00:43:30,639 --> 00:43:37,280 had either a map on the wall, their pictures telling you he was obsessed 596 00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:42,079 with them, not the house them. That makes a ton of sense. 597 00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:46,199 Let's talk about the fact that there has been so much made about the fact 598 00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:52,320 that he was studying criminal justice and taking classes with doctor Catherine Ramslin, who 599 00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:54,679 has gotten a raw deal out of this whole entire thing. By the way, 600 00:43:55,320 --> 00:44:01,679 that's studying criminology or watching procedurals and documentaries teach criminals and killers how to 601 00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:07,159 be more effective. Okay, there's a book called the Bible, and there 602 00:44:07,199 --> 00:44:14,239 are people that get together every Sunday and sometimes on Wednesday to talk about how 603 00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:19,280 you should act and treat people. Reading that book and going to church is 604 00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:22,519 not gonna make you a good person. There has to be something in you 605 00:44:22,639 --> 00:44:27,360 already, and you're not gonna just Hey, I've gone to church just about 606 00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:30,159 every Easter since I was five? Can I not be a saint? No? 607 00:44:30,639 --> 00:44:34,800 Sure that you cannot be a saint because you went to church. Sorry, 608 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:40,320 studying don't make you nothing. The reason he did that is because it 609 00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:45,960 was already in him. He couldn't get enough of it. So, like 610 00:44:45,159 --> 00:44:51,119 I personally have always been fascinated by crime, I enjoy crime. I can 611 00:44:51,199 --> 00:44:54,199 work a twelve hour shift and come home and watch criminal minds and be happy 612 00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:58,159 as a lord. And my husband sometimes say, hey, didn't you just 613 00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:04,159 do that all day? Right? I did, But it's not just my 614 00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:07,320 vocation, it's my advocation. I enjoy it. He was the type of 615 00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:10,760 person that could not get enough of it. And I've even said to people, 616 00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:15,639 this was his porn. He wanted to talk about it, read about 617 00:45:15,639 --> 00:45:17,599 it, study about it. Think he was the smartest person in the room 618 00:45:17,639 --> 00:45:21,800 when it came to it. And I know, doctor Ramslin, just like 619 00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:25,199 y'all do, this will, in my opinion, be her and rule moment 620 00:45:25,679 --> 00:45:30,679 and rule. Worked at a Red crisis center with Ted Bungee. Doctor Ramslin 621 00:45:31,039 --> 00:45:35,239 is going to be able to use this for good. She is going to 622 00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:37,880 be able to teach from it, learned from it, share from it, 623 00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:43,920 and we all build from it. Just like a preacher cannot control who comes 624 00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:47,320 into his church, she cannot control who comes and signs up for her class. 625 00:45:49,199 --> 00:45:53,320 Again, a criminology student is not a forensic student. She didn't teach 626 00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:57,880 Chim how to get away with anything. They taught about theory. He talked, 627 00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:01,039 it's about why sometimes this happened. But if you put out as that 628 00:46:01,119 --> 00:46:06,800 questionnaire, how did you feel during and after? That's on him. He 629 00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:09,880 wanted from you. And I told Nancy Grace this. I said, Ted 630 00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:14,599 Bundy wanted to talk to the victim because that's what got him all. He's 631 00:46:14,599 --> 00:46:19,119 all right, Yeah, I wanted to talk to the killer or the criminals 632 00:46:19,199 --> 00:46:23,920 because that's what he sees himself. At comferent, he even said he had 633 00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:30,239 this goal of wanting to work on high profile cases, which I found very 634 00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:35,400 interesting. Yeah, because that's the ticket, that's the soup. It's great 635 00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:37,599 to go to a high school game, but the super Bowl is a whole 636 00:46:37,599 --> 00:46:42,760 different level. So it's good to understand why Fred killed somebody in his backyard. 637 00:46:43,119 --> 00:46:46,039 It's different if you're looking at Israel Keys, completely different, and it's 638 00:46:46,079 --> 00:46:52,239 like anything else. You're not just gonna hold hands with your lover. You're 639 00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:55,519 gonna get to it. At some point. Everything graduates, especially if it's 640 00:46:55,519 --> 00:47:00,599 something physical. He couldn't stop himself at one point because reading about it, 641 00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:05,800 learning about it, hearing doctor Ramslin watching video, and y'all hear me. 642 00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:10,840 His search on his computer will blow your mind, especially computer at work. 643 00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:16,559 He is not hidding anything nothing. He can't hide it. It's just if 644 00:47:16,599 --> 00:47:20,480 you've got a real good buddy and you love them and they're fun, but 645 00:47:20,519 --> 00:47:22,880 then you realize, wait a minute, is that dude an alcoholic? Because 646 00:47:23,039 --> 00:47:28,320 at some point he doesn't stop drinking when everybody else does, and he talks 647 00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:30,639 about liquor, and he talks about this and he can't hide it after a 648 00:47:30,639 --> 00:47:36,360 while. That's what this guy is. His students knew, even if they 649 00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:39,559 didn't put two and four and seven together, they knew this Ta is not 650 00:47:39,679 --> 00:47:45,119 like everybody else. He grades us harder, he breaks us down and tells 651 00:47:45,159 --> 00:47:49,039 us we don't know nothing because he's smarter than anybody else. But then after 652 00:47:49,079 --> 00:47:52,760 the murders, everybody gets a plus one hundreds. He don't even want to 653 00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:57,800 talk about it. Yeah, very interesting patterns, patterns, patterns. Once 654 00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,199 that pattern is broken, you stay right there there. That's your guy. 655 00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:06,360 So Mac, if our listeners want to meet you in person to talk about 656 00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:12,599 the Zone seven or CIRI or CSI Atlanta, what events should they plan on 657 00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:15,920 coming to this year in order to see you and get a great big hug 658 00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:17,320 from you in person. I've got a lot of cool things coming up. 659 00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:21,800 I'm gonna be on the Crime Con Cruise. I'm gonna come to Crime Con 660 00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:27,639 in Orlando. I've got some events coming up in Georgia at the Georgia Writers 661 00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:31,599 Museum in February. I've got some speeches that I'm gonna be doing at Jakol 662 00:48:31,639 --> 00:48:36,760 Island and a speech are gonna be doing in Savannah. So just watch my 663 00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:38,960 Facebook page and y'all just come on. But if you're coming through Atlanta, 664 00:48:39,119 --> 00:48:42,440 let me know. You never know, we might get meet up real quick. 665 00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:47,559 That sounds fantastic. Cheryl mc McCollum, thank you so much for joining 666 00:48:47,639 --> 00:48:51,280 us, and it's a pleasure as always, and we look forward to seeing 667 00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:54,599 you at Crime Con and any other time we can possibly get to your location. 668 00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:59,519 Y'all are two of my favorite people ever, and I will leave y'all 669 00:48:59,559 --> 00:49:01,760 with this. You don't have to listen to his own seven, but get 670 00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:07,280 to my Facebook page or Twitter or somewhere and look for an update on Tammy 671 00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:12,719 Jackson. I would say in the next two months. Excellent. Thank you 672 00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:16,000 so much for listening to this episode of mind Over Murder. We'll see you 673 00:49:16,079 --> 00:49:30,840 next time. Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog 674 00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:37,639 Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art 675 00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:42,920 is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. Mind Over 676 00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:47,199 Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. You can follow us on 677 00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:52,199 Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow our page on the 678 00:49:52,199 --> 00:49:57,119 Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on 679 00:49:57,159 --> 00:50:02,039 Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.