You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas.
I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now
trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other
victims a violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway
murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together
with Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a
researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social
media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner
in crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind of a Murder. I'm Kristin
Dilley. That makes me Bill Thomas, and we are joined today by one
of our very favorite people, Cheryl McCollum, Intrepid CSI and now podcaster Mac.
Thank you for joining us today, Oh honey, thank you so much.
I love talking to the two of y'all. Thank you. We just
spent far too many minutes off air catching up and there's so much to talk
about, and we better record some of this stuff. I'll tell you the
conversation all Fair might have been a better podcast. Max start by reminding her
viewers about your professional role as a working CSI. I am a crime scene
investigator for a Metro Atlanta police department, still active. Love my job,
Love my department. I'm also the director of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute,
and I still work with Karen Greer on CSI Atlanta, and I have
recently added, as you mentioned, podcasting to my repertoire, which is a
little usual for me and a little out of my wheelhouse. But so far
I've really enjoyed it. I love the fact that you've become a podcaster.
See Kristin Dilley says everybody should become a podcaster, and she helped talk me
into it. Of course, then I got to turn the tables and say,
okay, i'll do a podcast on true crime. Kristin Dilly, if
you'll do a podcast with me on true crime. And look how brilliant that
turned out. Thank you. Kristin doesn't know this, by the way,
I'm just gonna mention this. We're going to cross over a million downloads in
sometime around the first of March. I think, according to my calculations,
wows. Anyway, we'll announce that officially, but I just every once in
a while i'll check that. We don't think about that stuff very often.
But last night I had a couple of minutes and I went out on in
the host tells you how many downloads you have? And I did some math
and I was like, and I said to Pamela, my partner, I
think we're going to cross over a million downloads. We're at nine hundred and
something thousand as of last night. We were at nine hundred thousand, five
hundred ninety eight downloads last night before party. Yeah, so something to talk
about. Tell us about zone tepping. The title came about because in Atlanta
there are six police zones, and back in the day before pagers and before
cell phones, if we wanted to get together, we would say, hey,
your core group of people, your real true buddies, let's meet its
zone seven. And we would know what that would mean for our group,
our particular bar. And so it's somewhere between what y'all know as choir practice
and what you know as the war room. So we would generally do his
own seven. If we needed feedback about something, whether or not somebody should
take the sergeant's exam, whether or not they had something on this case that
somebody could think of to help move it in some way, or getting together
and sitting down and really going over a cold case. So for me,
Zone seven are those people that I can trust without hesitation, those people that
have your back, those people that cheer for you, those people that tell
you the truth and the real truth. If you're out a lie and you're
out of line, if you're off track, you're off track, and they
bring you back because they truly care about you. So you know, not
everybody's in your zone Heaven. You may even have a person that is a
friend. You would go and help them if they run out of gas,
but they're not in Zone seven. It's a very small, select, serious
froup of people to you. And so that's why I thought it'll be important
to call it zone seven because the people that I'm going to highlight and come
as experts, they are in my zone seven. So I thought that's how
we'll do it. You pick the people closest to you, and you trust
what they're telling you to do on these cases, and you trust it they
have not only the best interests in mind for you, but these families and
ultimately the cases. So that's why I did it that way. I think
I'm speaking for both of us here when we say that you're in our zone
seven for sure. Oh likewise, Sugar, no question about it, no
question. And I'll give you a story. I'm driving with my husband from
Atlanta to upstate New York for my niece's wedding. We are having a great
time all the way up and just having a wonderful time. When we get
up there, we're leaving to come all the way back home. And it
happens to be our anniversary weekend as well, so we're staying at all these
fabulous different airbnb type places. Yeah, and on the way back, our
car breaks down. Bill Thomas reaches out to me and says, where are
you. I'll come get you. You can stay at the house. What
I remember this, Yeah, we were very concerned, very excited about the
wedding, and then the car breaks down, which is not convenient, yes,
but it wasn't like I was twenty minutes from him either, y'all.
I want you to understand, so just wonderful, Like he said, he
was concerned, what can I do? Can I help if y'all fly back
to Atlantic because I had to come back to work. I'd already been off
a week. So we flew back home and we were going to fly back
up to get the car and Bill say, hey, I can go get
the car. Haven't waiting at the house, and I'm like, this is
too much. So again that Zone seven, those people. I recently saw
a thing with Jamie Lee Curtis, who I love, and it was some
award show where somebody that she was working with won the award. But Jamie
Lee Curtis is jumping up with her arms in the air. She's just screaming,
that's who you want? Who's clapping for me? Who's that excited for
me? She didn't win it. I don't even know if Jamie Lee was
up for an award that you would call from that picture that she had won
it. And so those are the people I'm talking about. So little short
story, but let you know that, Yeah, it's absolutely y'all are in
my Zone seven, no doubt about it. I love the Zone seven name
even more now that you gave us a little bit of the backstory. That
is so cool and I think you have their own zone seven and cultivated.
And even if it's one person, if you've got one best friend, just
really true, solid, loyal, devoted, ride or die, you're good.
If you've got two or three, you are beyond blast to me.
And if you've got more than that, you're just living in Just gold is
all I can tell you. So, Mac, tell us, what was
the reason that you decided to start this podcast? You, as you mentioned
before, you were very busy, and I knew that CSA Atlanta, for
example, has been massively successful, So why would you add more to your
plate? What made you decide, you know what, let me podcast you.
There's somebody in my zone seven that came to me and said, I
think it's important that you do it. I think you've got some stories that
need to be told, and this was the game changer. I will help
you do it. And I said, if you will help, because this
is not my area, those of y'all that are in my zone seven.
No, I'm not real techy. My children laugh because I can't even get
to Netflix on our own TV, having a microphone and having a downloaded guest
rooms and I don't even know. I can't do all that. So I
said yes to this person because I do trust this person, and I thought,
this person is not going to set me up to fail or embarrass me.
And if I listen to them, I think maybe I can do this,
even if it's for four months, even if it's for a year.
I don't know that I could do it for a long period of time.
Sure, there are some stories that I would like to have out there forever
for people to say, Hey, this is boots on the ground, how
she does it. Maybe I could learn something from her if it's a brand
new detective. But that person that said they would help me was Nancy Grace.
Wow, that don't know. Nancy was my prosecutor back in the day
when I was first assigned to the Major Case Division through the Crime Commission,
and we were both in our twenties and baby, we had so much fun
in Atlanta and generous and welcoming and never made you feel stupid. She would
walk you through why you needed a second search warrant if there was a detached
garage. I know she saved the case then because we had a search warrant
and we thought that just covered the whole property, covers just the house.
The address you get the garage was separate, so y'all hold this scene and
go get another search warrant. So things like that. She's been so good
to me, and she doesn't want any acknowledgment. She doesn't even want people
to know we know each other, because she always says if I'm on her
show, she wants people to know it's because of me, because friends,
which I appreciate, but I also understand and I want people to hear me
say this. How many crime scene investigators are there out there in the world.
She could have any of them on her show. So she is a
loyal friend. She is a good friend. My career has a whole different
level because I know that child. And I'll tell y'all a funny story.
I was at the second or third crime con, I think the second one,
and I'm standing with a group of people after my session because they had
some questions and those maybe fifteen or two only people, and I was answering
none the best I could. And I didn't know these folks, and this
woman walks up to me, interrupts me and says, I know you,
and so I look at her. I've never seen her before, and I
have an iddic memory for faces. I've never seen her before in my life.
She said, you're that woman that rides Nancy Grace's coattails. Oh my
god. So immediately I'm like, okay, this could go left or right
for me. And I thought, dude, I just don't cuss her.
And then I thought, what good is that going to do? And then
no, I'm just gonna tell her the truth. I'm gonna flat tell this
woman the truth. So I looked right at her in front of all these
people that are now staring at me, and I said, you damn right,
what possible position would I play if you have Nancy grets? So then
the next year, when I was at Crime Can, I told that story
and I followed up, I'm on stage and I just told that story and
everybody laughed a chorus. Take damn right, and I said, I'm gonna
tell y'all. Right Now, Nancy Grace calls me today and said, hey,
we're done with true crime. We're now doing porn. Got it?
Because that's who she is to me. She would not hurt me in any
way. She never has. She is only highlighted everything that I've ever tried
to do. She's only helped me. She's shown up places, She's given
speeches for me. I had a parent that was very ill. Nancy was
there for me the whole time. When I had returned to the courthouse after
losing my mother, she picks me up for lunch, takes me to Marry
Max, which was our place, and she said, what do you need
from me? Can I possibly do? And that's never done. She's thrown
me baby showers. And she's that person. She's not just a TV true
crime icon. She is the most down the earth loyal right there when you
need her person. And she's been that way since I was twenty four and
I'm fifty seven, fifty eight I am. I'll tell you that in her
loyals. Ever, one thing I'll add about Nancy Grace. Of course I
met Nancy Grace through you, and it was at one of those crime cons.
And you do something which Kristen and I both love, which is your
connector. You've said to me, you need to know so and so,
or you need to talk to so and so, or you need to learn
about this new technology we were talking about Jared Bradley and the m VAC machine,
which is used to solve so many cases. Basically, it's a high
tech vacuum cleaner. I think it's the way Jared puts it. But for
instance, you said to me at one of those crime cons, you need
to meet Nancy Grace, and a minute later you steered me over and introduced
me. And one of the things I quickly realized is that there's two Nancy
Graces. The Nancy Grace we see on television. And I don't know if
she'd accept this, but this is my point of view. She kind of
plays a character on TV, which is she's very aggressive and outspoken. She's
brilliantly smart, but she's tough. But then off the air she's completely different.
And you introduced her to me. Amy to her and you said,
miss Bill Thomas from Mclonia Parkway murders, and you gave her the quick overview,
and her interaction with me was so lovely. She's a completely different person
off the air. Here's what I tell people. Bill, you have a
professional boxer that has never put his hands on his family or children or friends.
There's that switch. He knows what his job is. His job is
to get in that ring and beat the daylights out of that other person.
But when he goes home, he's playing with the kitten, he's cuddling with
the baby, he's loving and tender with his wife. Nancy Grace knows her
job. And if you ask her, does this person deserve the death penalty,
She's going to go after that person because that person killed a twelve year
old little girl. But when she meets somebody and it's her one on one,
she's Nancy. She's not Nancy Gray. She's not in that ring right
now. He flat knows her job, Sugar, trust me. So let's
get back to the Zone seven for a second. And I want to get
you to talk about the first case that you covered. And I'm so glad
that it was the first thing that you covered because it was a case that
I've got very interested in when I heard you speak about it at Savannah CRIMEXPO,
and that is the case of Tammy Jackson. Can you tell us a
little bit about the Tammy Jackson case and then why it's so important to you,
important enough that you started the podcast with it. I came to know
this case because I was just flipping and scrolling one night on social media and
this person had written one paragraph and in that paragraph they said, seventeen year
old Tammy Jackson was stabbed one hundred and thirty times hog tide and run over
by a car on Hudgetson Island, Georgia. That just knocked me out for
a couple of reasons. One, how have I never heard about it?
If it happened in Georgia, Even if it's a case I haven't worked,
typically somebody will send it to me, or I'll be somewhere with colleagues where
somebody says, hey, I've got this case. Tell me what you think.
I've never heard of this case, and I just didn't know how that
was possible. Nancy had never covered it. I'd never heard about it with
c SI Atlanta. I'd never heard about it. It confidences that I go
to. And then I thought, Hudginson Island. I know all the beaches
in Georgia, and I've been to Tybee, I've been to Jekyl, I've
been to Saint Simon's, I've been a little Saint Simmons. I never heard
of Hudgetson Island, and I'm thinking this has got to be a TYPHO.
Then when I researched it, it said Savannah, and I was like Oh
my lord, it's a river island, no wonder, I'd never heard of
it. I thought hog tide, and then I researched one. I found
one news article. News article said she was last seeing around ten DM at
night. Found by seven seven thirty the following morning, so she wasn't out
in the elements long. And I thought, if they hog tighter, that
rope is the ticket, as well as her clothing. But that rope I
couldn't get out of my mind. So I thought, I've got to find
this families. Here's one of those divine intervention moments. For some reason,
I couldn't, of course, find the family anywhere, but I went to
find my grave. On the grave, her sisters were named. I've never
seen that before in my life, not his star. That seems unusual,
very unusual. But there they were, and I was able to find both
of them on social media quickly and reached out to both of them. Shockingly,
I tell people, I got no response because they probably thought, who
is this crazy person? But I waited a little bit and then I reached
out to Stacy one more time, and I said, I know you don't
know me, but if you would just listen to me for five minute,
and if you could get me to the detective, I think I can help.
Possibly. She called me and then she told me who the lieutenant was
over the case, and I said, I'm coming to Savannah. I want
to meet with him in person. So she met me at the hotel and
then the lieutenant met and I laid out what I thought would be a great
course of action, and I said, it's gonna cost y'all money, but
we can help there, and he's, yeah, I don't think we're gonna
do any of that. And I was disappointed, but I told Stacy,
I said, listen, if I know anything about cold cases, that detective's
gonna change. And when it does call me, it wasn't too long cause
me. She says, we got a new detective. I said, who
is it? She said, Tara Smith. And I thought to myself,
it's a girl. She's gonna see this different women. It's not positive or
negative. And I want to be very clear with everybody. Listen to me.
If you put together any kind of task for us, you need old
young, different sexual orientation, different religions, different races. You get every
single possible person in that room you can, because they're gonna come at this
thing in a three to sixty that you couldn't have otherwise. They're gonna all
see it different. So I thought, by changing the gender, we're gonna
change this case. And that's what happened because Tara Smith, buddy, she
is smart, she's devoted, she's funny, she's tireless. She took a
hold of this thing and liked Bill first time I ever mentioned the impact to
Bill. The next thing I know is a picture of him and Jared Bradley
together. And Kara took everything that I outlined, called every person that I
told her to call, and the next thing we knew this thing was in
motion, but we still needed money. And Kristen, that's where you and
I have talked about before. I love people, and love wins. Love
wins every time. But you enter a call Marino in this thing. Yes,
Corl changed. So that was one of our questions. So how do
Carl and his lovely wife Alona Marino get involved? Okay, you talk about
two beautiful people inside. Now they're young, they're sexy, they're fun,
they're famous, they're like Walt and Igh. You know what I mean.
I could see it. Yeah, it's like looking in the mirror. Knew
that this thing was going to cost thousands of dollars. So I called Carl
and I said, look, I've got an idea. I need to raise
some money for this officer in this family. February's coming up, so I
thought we could do a fun little date night for people. And what would
be more fun than hanging out with this beautiful couple and letting Carl talk about
behind the scenes of Homicide Hunter. So he's got fantastic stories of Joe Kenda,
how he came to get on the show, where she is a gas
spot here and there, she's a nurse once, she's a police officer once,
and she is so beautiful y'all. And he said, we're in.
So they come to Atlanta and they do a two night event Friday night and
Saturday night where couples or anybody, groups of friends, they all came.
We were sold out just like that. They tell all these wonderful stories.
He even brings other guests that are on the show that happen to live in
or around Atlanta. So then they had all these other people they knew from
the show. It was fantastic. Raised four thousand dollars we needed five.
We got the other thousand dollars pretty quickly after that to start the testing on
the items. And let me just tell you this part if you aren't already
a fan of Carl and his lovely bride Alona. Not only did they come
to Atlanta, so I told them, I'm gonna get your hotel room,
pay for your gasoline because they wanted to drive and get your mills and all
that. They said, okay, that's fair, no problem. They check
in. Everything's good, everything's roll. They come to the event, they
do the first night, they do, the second night, they're about to
go back to the hotel, and then they're gonna leave earlier. The next
morning, Alona comes up to me and hands me a chet from them,
and I said, what are you doing? We should be doing for you.
You don't come out of pocket, You're doing this for all of us.
She would after meeting the family and listening to Detective Smith, we want
to do more and had to me a personal chet. Wow. I look
at the cold case bank stavement or whatever, and I called Carl and I
said, did y'all have a bob with the hotel? Because I don't have
a bill. But we took care of it. They would take no money,
not for their travel, and that's when gasoline was really going crazy.
They would no money for gas, no money for food, no money for
the hotel, nothing, nothing. That's great. So that's what love wins.
And I tell my own children all the time. Like even nine eleven,
for example, a handful of people did a horrible thing on that very
day of million people lined up to give blood. Love winds. So people
ask sometimes how do you not burn out? How do you not just walk
away from all this? And my question is, how the hell could.
I'm surrounded by people like Bill and Kristen and Carl and Alona and all these
just incredible people, Nancy Grace and all the people at crime con How do
you walk away from literally heroes? And even at my own department, I'm
surrounded by people that run toward danger. I'm surrounded by people that will every
now and then say, Matthew, stay right here a minute and we'll clear
that scene before I get to it. I ain't trying to leave them.
What are you ultimately seeking to do with your podcast? Are you reason awareness?
Are you solving cases? He's starting a conversation. Are you doing all
of the above, What is your what's your final goal for this? Would
you say the first reason? In the back of my mind, I thought
it's important to do it. I think is something that I think I've probably
said to a lot of people. I think some of these cases being on
tape are worthy of being in the Smithsonian. So when you hear like music
museums and you can go and you can hear Elvis and you can go and
hear Frank Sinatra and all of this music from the twenties and the thirties,
and how it paints this picture of America. I think if we look at
crime, you can study the history of America through crime as well. Whether
it's prohibition, whether it's the American Mada, whatever it is. I think
it is imperative that we put on tape what it was like policing before crack,
what it was like for radios, what it was like policing on horseback.
That's important. And I think y'all got a way of talking, Nancy's
got a way of talking. There's all these whether it's crime junkie or whoever,
there's literally hundreds and hundreds of people that are collecting this information that needs
to be highlighted. So that was one thing I thought. The second thing
I didn't want to do it if I couldn't help solve a case, I
don't want to just tell the story once upon a time. I know you
can be directly involved in helping solve this, whether it's sending a private lab
money, whether it's supporting the family, whether it's putting the bolo out,
whatever it is. You can't. Civilians solved crime all the time, DC
sniper. That car was spotted by a civilian. The Zodiac puzzle was solved
by a civilian. So if they solved prime all the time, what have
I not thought of? Instant message me and tell me and I don't freaking
try. So I thought that was going to be a staple that I'm gonna
try to solve these things. And then the other thing is maybe you've got
a brand new detective that doesn't know what parabond is and doesn't understand phenotype it.
And if I'm talking about a case that every nobody already knows about,
maybe that detective here's something. Wait a minute, whose friend seem bird old?
I need to meet her? Yes you do, because you don't need
me. I'm going to try to connect you to these people. I'm just
the middleman, or as Walt says, I'm just a pimp. So I'm
a pimp. I'm like, oh, I will wear that proudly. I
do think taking me out of its important. Like I tell the young detectives
of my own department, take any number out of my rolodecks. You won't
because when I retire, you don't need to have to contact me to get
to the right person. You should already have that person in your fault,
right, take it, take it and any other thing was I thought again,
some of these families sometimes they feel like their story hasten told the way.
They won't because they have thirty seconds or they have just sound bites to
tell a story. Sugar, you got an hour talk tell it, and
I thought that was important. So that's the reason you're listening to Mind over
Murder. Will be right back after this word from our sponsors, We're back
here at mindover Murder. We had talked to Paul Wagner's a long time reporter
in Washington, DC about his podcast series American Nightmare, and one of the
things that he talked about was how important he thought it was to get the
word out about various unsolved cases or how they came to be solved, and
he's focused on the Washington DC area because that's where he's been a television reporter
and radio reporter. One of the things he loves about the podcasting format,
and this is something Kristen and I have figured out two now that we're into
season four of Mind over Murder, which is hard to believe. It allows
you to get into more depth about the conversation about the details of a case,
to just drill down deep with an expert like yourself, and you just
don't have that opportunity. And other important news media, whether it's newspapers,
television, radio, they are limiting you for space. And this is what
Paul talked about on the podcast with us a couple of weeks ago. Whereas
with the podcast and then he does multiple episodes, particularly on these important cases
in Washington, d C. It allows him to really walk you through how
what happened happened. Absolutely, not just that they're sometimes limiting you on space.
Sometimes they limit you on topic. They will say, we want you
to talk about blame, and that leaves out so much that you might want
to discuss if they don't want you to, and it also doesn't give you
time to say yes, I think law enforcement is looking at this for this
reason, but it doesn't give you the opportunity to say but they should also
be doing two, three, four or five and six, which again can
help somebody else. Like people ask me, why would you Auncy Gray's go
to a Ruben now and be talking about Natalie Holloway one because she has gotten
no justice yet in two By walking through what went right and what went wrong
in that case can help other people. There are still people that do not
understand that your American consulant is not going to help you if somebody you love
goes missing, your embassy is not going to be able to help you.
If somebody you love goes missing. Most people don't know, Hey, when
does my passport expire? They got to get up go find it and look
at it. They don't know. So if you've got to love one that
goes missing in another country, can you even get there? Do you have
a passport that does not expired? Do you have money? Do you have
a room on your credit card to get an airline ticket to get open there?
Most people would be a little hand strong to do that, and that's
the reason to go back and talk about it before. Again, somebody sends
their kid to another country on spring break or for graduation, you got to
think about that before it happened. Let's which over for a minute to the
case that is on everybody's minds, even the people who don't normally follow true
crime, and that of course is the case with the Idaho for we were
just commenting off the air that you're everywhere talking about this case and we're thrilled
to see that. Can you talk a little bit about what you find intriguing
in that case From the perspective of a CSI who this case, Here's how
I've tried to make people understand as a crime scene investigator, at crime did
not start inside that home. So for me, I would have wanted to
spend a lot of time outside before I ever go in. That killer had
one way in and one way out. If he drove, if he walked,
he had more area to come from, but it was still limited because
he would have had to part which would also make people see his vehicle and
then him walk away from it. Because again, people know their area,
and they know their roommates and their friends vehicles. So if there's a car
that doesn't fit, that car is going to stick out. Footprints, obviously,
a trail of blood. Obviously, those are the things that I would
want to concentrate on before I got anywhere near that house. The windows,
the doors, screens, garbage, anything that I could see, And I
would probably take a hundred photographs before I ever went in the house. That
house is a crime scene by itself. Each room's a crime scene by itself.
Each body is a crime scene by itself. So I would have one
to concentrate on the house. Then each individual bedroom, whether the killer went
in it or not, I would concentrate on. Then the rooms where the
murders occurred. I would concentrate on solely for a little bit. Then each
individual body where they're placed, their injuries, their defensive wounds, their clothing,
everything. So if you start to look at it like that and you
remind yourself of doctor Jem McDonald, I would want every single wound swabbed so
that I would know who was killed in what order. So if you've got
victim one only their DNA, Victim two would have two DNA Victim one,
and there's victim three would have victim one and two and their's and then finally
victim four would have victim one, two, three, and four. I
never thought about this before. This is very interesting thought about it that way.
Yeah, So then once I know who's killed in what order, then
that's going to tell me again the target of this perpetrator. So I believe
this is personally. I believe he started on the third floor. I think
there's evidence to that. I thought back from Jump Street, and I said
it on every newscast I was owned starting in week one and two. The
reason I thought that is there's no reason for him to go upstairs. Men
a to B people. Generally speaking, there are some that are not,
but of the time men are A to B people. I think what you
mean is men are simple creatures. No, not at all. I think
there's genius in it. Oh, okay, there are. And here's the
reason. If a man is somewhere and he's been in the same clothes for
eight hours and Miss October comes up to him and says, hey, I
want to have sex with you right now, he just takes this clothes off
right. He knows, he thinks, he knows. His underwears ten years
old he ain't rushed the teeth, but it's miss October. Okay. A
woman has Matthew McConaughey come up to her and says, hey, I want
to have sex to you right now. She'll be like fifteen minutes and she'll
go, She'll go take a shower and freshen up. I'm gonna shave my
legs, I'm gonna fix my hair, I'm gonna throw some perfume everywhere.
Women put roadblocks in front of themselves instead of saying, hell, yes,
get on them, neck and bong goes and let's get to it. So
they approach crime differently as well, if that makes sense to you. So
they're not gonna put obstacles in front of themselves, right unless an escape route,
and then that's not their control. So he's going to be in and
out. He's gonna go where he wants to go. So when he goes
upstairs, he no longer has an exit correct, very important. Why would
he do that to himself because his targets upstairs. The other thing that bothered
me, Kayley was not supposed to be from what we read, Yes,
okay, Kayley was not supposed to be there. Their car out front that's
brand new with dealer tags still on it. Kayley only went there to show
her friend Mattie the car. That means this person that has been stalking them
and went by that house at least four times before he parked and went in
the night of the murder, but he had stalked them twelve times before.
In fact, we're seeing that car before or Hattie, because only two things
are possible. Either he knew that was Kaylee's car and she was in there
even though she had already moved out, or that was a car he didn't
recognize, didn't know who was in it, knew there was an additional person
in that house and didn't care. So again, this person is single focused.
It's gonna be this night. So for me, Kayley's not supposed to
be there. He doesn't kill her dog. She's in a place he has
no exit. She's moving to Texas, so if she were the target,
he has to kill her now or never because she's leaping right So the sheath
is left up there. Again, that tells me they were the target.
Upstairs, Dylan, here's the commotion upstairs. Thanks. Kayley is playing with
Murphy, her dog. What we now I believe she's here and is the
murder, but she knows it's unusual enough. She remembers hearing it again,
that must be what I'm hearing, But it still made her concentrate about it.
Then she hears talking and she hears some body's here again. That tells
me he's on the third floor already. Then there's crime, Then there's the
struggle. Then she sees the person leaving through the slide glass door. She
sees him leaving. Then you know the murders upstairs have already happened. So
again, the target was on the third floor. That can't be happenschance that's
targeted. That's deliberate, that's a movement A to B. If you had
to guess the victims on the second floor, who you believe are not necessarily
the primary targets. Correct. I believe that Why did he kill them?
Because Danna saw him and I think either through the door dash or her going
to the kitchen to get the food, or maybe she even heard her other
roommate open her door a couple of times, something that got her attention.
Now again, think about it. You live in a house where you've got
people low you and above you. You're used to noise, you're used to
that doll, you're used to people walking up down the stairs with a shared
kitchen was different sounds, and both Dylan and Zanna zer rode in on it.
Both of them knew something is different, something's not right. When Zanna
says, somebody's here, she's talking to Ethan. Now Ethan might be up,
what are you talking about? What's going on that point? In order
for him to get out, he's got to pass them. Well, if
he doesn't kill him, law enforcement's going to be notified immediately. So he's
now in I've got to get away mode. I think, I think sadly
and tragically, the two of them were collateral damage. So Zanna and Ethan,
who were on the second floor, are killed as he makes his way
back down from the third floor where his primary target or targets were. That's
what I believe. And again I don't have a crystal ball. This is
not some magic trick. I'm not clairvoyant. But again, if you look
at patterns, him going to the third floor first tells you why he entered
that house. In my opinion, he never goes to the basement. There's
no reason too he doesn't kill Zanna and Ethan on the way in. Why
not? Why not get rid of them immediately? If that's your gold,
kill everybody the house because it wasn't his goal. And then I thought about
it that way. Wow, Mac. And then but then let's flip this
around. There's this intriguing question, and Kristen and I have talked about this
on the podcast. He walks right past Dylan, and she's actually close enough
to him. Now it could be dark, but she's close enough to him
to give law enforcement a pretty good physical description. Athletic but not gigantic,
not super belt, bushy eyebrows, He's got the mask on the lower part
of his face. He appears to walk past her. Do you think he's
so focused on escape at that point that he doesn't see her, or that
he lets her go because he's exhausted having killed four people. I realize I'm
hitting you with a lot. No, you're not. I think he literally
didn't see her. There's a oh what do you call it? A neon
sign the kitchen. If her bedroom is pitch flak and she cracks the door,
she can see him because he's illuminated. She's not. I think there's
a real possibility. He never saw her. Plus, if he wasn't counting
on the second set of attacks, he is now when his mind scrambled,
it is chaotic, right, Fine, he's not running. Dylan describes him
as just walking. He's probably in a state of almost disbelief. What happened.
I went in here to do one thing. It wasn't what I thought
it was going to be. The dog was in my way. I had
to get the dog put somewhere because the dog was gonna follow me out and
maybe alert people. So he does what he does in that one bedroom to
two people, and maybe he was counting on that. Maybe he wasn't.
Maybe if he knew Dylan and it already moved out, maybe he thought she
was in another room. But when he entered that room, he had no
choice. Now there's two of them in the same bed. But I think
he's the one that put Murphy in that room and shut the door. I
firmly believe that. I believe because of his own psyche, he did not
harm that animal. And again that speaks to him. I didn't know why
that was relevant. I just knew that it was in another way that I
work, y'all, if I find something at a crime scene and I don't
know how it fits, and it doesn't make sense to me. I take
it. It may make sense later he become very clear later, or it
may never have any connect. That dog surviving was critical to me, because
otherwise, why not just cut his throat. He ain't gonna bar again't gonna
bite me, he ain't gonna follow me. I didn't have that dog didn't
have Beeca blood on him. Ironically, it almost appears that the suspect might
actually value the dog's life more than he valued for human beings. Okay,
so if he is not just a vegan, but some rabbit is out of
place, it's not just for health purposes. That answered my question as soon
as I found out he made people buy new pots and pans that it never
toudged animal meat. That's him. And listen, we all know folks that
if they're watching a movie and the woman is beat and slaughtered and whatever,
but then the dog is kicked, react only to the dog being kicked.
Ye hit that I totally understand where they're coming from. You sometimes have this
kinship with an animal and they are totally dependent on you. They can't talk,
they can't defend themselves, so to harm something that is only loving and
given, I get that, but they don't have the same reaction to woman
that's been butchered. That may be part of his deal. And again that's
oude of my wheelhouse. I'm just saying I know it happens, and it
wouldn't shock me if that's what's happening here. So when he tries to now
maybe tell people I have no feelings and just this shale of a person,
that ain't true because you save that dog. Although the New York Times piece
that hit a week or so ago, there was a new article where they
were talking to people that knew him back in high school and college as well.
It does sound like he has difficulty connecting with people or feeling empathy.
But like you said, that doesn't mean that he wouldn't love an animal,
because our relationships with an animal, as you were pointing out, are very
different than they are with people. It's a simpler relationship to start with.
But think about it. For him, just like he's not going to be
able to claim he didn't know right from wrong. Sure he does, he
knew he knew right for wrong, but he also values life on some level,
he understands. Whether he says the dog did not desire to be harmed,
but everybody else in the house did. It may be twisted and it
may be so foreign to us, thankfully, but it's still true for him.
So the only thing we're trying to do is understand him. For me,
if this were my scene again and the blood came back to show,
what I think it's gonna show eventually is the two girls upstairs were killed first,
Kaylee and Maddie. Why. There has to be a reason. He
had to know that was their bedroom. He had to know that he had
already watched him at least twelve times at least, but I'm sure it's one
that So why did they become the law enforcement either already has a good idea
or I think they will eventually, because his phone, his computer, the
items they found in their house. And that's another thing I want to be
real clear about. That arrest half of David is a thumbnail of what they've
got. So the things he searched on his computer, I believe he was
so uber focused on this thing. Again since the August now August, September,
October, November, this is all he's thinking about. You think about
when you have planned something like that, whether it's a massive vacation trip or
a wedding, whatever it is. You look at magazines, you google things,
you ask friends about, what's the best place you've ever been to in
Colorado? What's the best place you ate at in Nebraska. You're asking questions
because that's all you can think about is this trip. But did you use
a flower girl? Would you have somebody under three in the wedding band or
DJ that's what you're focused on. I see you in that apartment. He
had either a map on the wall, their pictures telling you he was obsessed
with them, not the house them. That makes a ton of sense.
Let's talk about the fact that there has been so much made about the fact
that he was studying criminal justice and taking classes with doctor Catherine Ramslin, who
has gotten a raw deal out of this whole entire thing. By the way,
that's studying criminology or watching procedurals and documentaries teach criminals and killers how to
be more effective. Okay, there's a book called the Bible, and there
are people that get together every Sunday and sometimes on Wednesday to talk about how
you should act and treat people. Reading that book and going to church is
not gonna make you a good person. There has to be something in you
already, and you're not gonna just Hey, I've gone to church just about
every Easter since I was five? Can I not be a saint? No?
Sure that you cannot be a saint because you went to church. Sorry,
studying don't make you nothing. The reason he did that is because it
was already in him. He couldn't get enough of it. So, like
I personally have always been fascinated by crime, I enjoy crime. I can
work a twelve hour shift and come home and watch criminal minds and be happy
as a lord. And my husband sometimes say, hey, didn't you just
do that all day? Right? I did, But it's not just my
vocation, it's my advocation. I enjoy it. He was the type of
person that could not get enough of it. And I've even said to people,
this was his porn. He wanted to talk about it, read about
it, study about it. Think he was the smartest person in the room
when it came to it. And I know, doctor Ramslin, just like
y'all do, this will, in my opinion, be her and rule moment
and rule. Worked at a Red crisis center with Ted Bungee. Doctor Ramslin
is going to be able to use this for good. She is going to
be able to teach from it, learned from it, share from it,
and we all build from it. Just like a preacher cannot control who comes
into his church, she cannot control who comes and signs up for her class.
Again, a criminology student is not a forensic student. She didn't teach
Chim how to get away with anything. They taught about theory. He talked,
it's about why sometimes this happened. But if you put out as that
questionnaire, how did you feel during and after? That's on him. He
wanted from you. And I told Nancy Grace this. I said, Ted
Bundy wanted to talk to the victim because that's what got him all. He's
all right, Yeah, I wanted to talk to the killer or the criminals
because that's what he sees himself. At comferent, he even said he had
this goal of wanting to work on high profile cases, which I found very
interesting. Yeah, because that's the ticket, that's the soup. It's great
to go to a high school game, but the super Bowl is a whole
different level. So it's good to understand why Fred killed somebody in his backyard.
It's different if you're looking at Israel Keys, completely different, and it's
like anything else. You're not just gonna hold hands with your lover. You're
gonna get to it. At some point. Everything graduates, especially if it's
something physical. He couldn't stop himself at one point because reading about it,
learning about it, hearing doctor Ramslin watching video, and y'all hear me.
His search on his computer will blow your mind, especially computer at work.
He is not hidding anything nothing. He can't hide it. It's just if
you've got a real good buddy and you love them and they're fun, but
then you realize, wait a minute, is that dude an alcoholic? Because
at some point he doesn't stop drinking when everybody else does, and he talks
about liquor, and he talks about this and he can't hide it after a
while. That's what this guy is. His students knew, even if they
didn't put two and four and seven together, they knew this Ta is not
like everybody else. He grades us harder, he breaks us down and tells
us we don't know nothing because he's smarter than anybody else. But then after
the murders, everybody gets a plus one hundreds. He don't even want to
talk about it. Yeah, very interesting patterns, patterns, patterns. Once
that pattern is broken, you stay right there there. That's your guy.
So Mac, if our listeners want to meet you in person to talk about
the Zone seven or CIRI or CSI Atlanta, what events should they plan on
coming to this year in order to see you and get a great big hug
from you in person. I've got a lot of cool things coming up.
I'm gonna be on the Crime Con Cruise. I'm gonna come to Crime Con
in Orlando. I've got some events coming up in Georgia at the Georgia Writers
Museum in February. I've got some speeches that I'm gonna be doing at Jakol
Island and a speech are gonna be doing in Savannah. So just watch my
Facebook page and y'all just come on. But if you're coming through Atlanta,
let me know. You never know, we might get meet up real quick.
That sounds fantastic. Cheryl mc McCollum, thank you so much for joining
us, and it's a pleasure as always, and we look forward to seeing
you at Crime Con and any other time we can possibly get to your location.
Y'all are two of my favorite people ever, and I will leave y'all
with this. You don't have to listen to his own seven, but get
to my Facebook page or Twitter or somewhere and look for an update on Tammy
Jackson. I would say in the next two months. Excellent. Thank you
so much for listening to this episode of mind Over Murder. We'll see you
next time. Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog
Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art
is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. Mind Over
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