WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.720 --> 00:00:08.640 Hi, You're listening to The Sociology Show, a podcast about absolutely anything to 2 00:00:08.679 --> 00:00:13.960 do with the wonderful world of sociology. Whether you're a teacher, a lecturer, 3 00:00:14.160 --> 00:00:18.000 a student, or just taking a passing interest. This podcast will look 4 00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:22.719 at a range of issues from social clasts, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, 5 00:00:22.839 --> 00:00:27.920 religion, crime, education, and anything else this sociology has to offer. 6 00:00:29.800 --> 00:00:33.359 My name is Matthew Wilkin. In each episode I will speak to someone working 7 00:00:33.359 --> 00:00:37.079 in the field of sociology and let them explain all about their own interests, 8 00:00:37.240 --> 00:00:42.600 their research and their experiences. So put your ear phones in, turn the 9 00:00:42.679 --> 00:00:49.960 volume up, and let's be sociology gigs together. Eight. Hello, and 10 00:00:50.039 --> 00:00:53.159 welcome to the Sociology Show podcast. Would you like to start by telling us 11 00:00:53.200 --> 00:00:55.719 a little bit about who you are and what you do this. So, 12 00:00:55.920 --> 00:01:02.679 my name's Tom Shakespeare. I'm Compessor of Disability at London School of Hygien's Tropical 13 00:01:02.719 --> 00:01:07.560 Medicine. I'm a sociologist, so obviously I've trained at Cambridge and my current 14 00:01:07.680 --> 00:01:15.319 role is really doing process evaluations of interventions to improve the lives of disabled people 15 00:01:15.799 --> 00:01:22.120 in low middle income countries. So it's a lot of disability and development research, 16 00:01:22.439 --> 00:01:26.640 but also I do research and UK, particularly about recently the impact of 17 00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:30.680 COVID on disabled people. Great, thank you, and I had a look 18 00:01:30.680 --> 00:01:34.200 on your Wikipedia just as as sort of an introduction that, I mean, 19 00:01:34.400 --> 00:01:38.159 huge number of things that you've done throughout your time from their very long and 20 00:01:38.239 --> 00:01:42.799 varied career. If I do say so myself, I think I tend to 21 00:01:42.840 --> 00:01:47.920 get bored of things, so I tend to one to different things. I've 22 00:01:47.920 --> 00:01:53.200 lived in different places. I feel that all of my work is broadly about 23 00:01:53.319 --> 00:02:00.239 disability. I've worked with the World Health Organization, and I think it's Yeah, 24 00:02:00.280 --> 00:02:04.319 it's exciting to be a sociologist because you're looking at the world around you, 25 00:02:04.599 --> 00:02:07.719 trying to make sense of it and trying to make it better. And 26 00:02:07.840 --> 00:02:12.879 in my case that's particularly in the field of disability. Thank you, Tom. 27 00:02:13.080 --> 00:02:15.240 And we'll start with that disability then. So the first thing I wanted 28 00:02:15.240 --> 00:02:19.439 to ask you, which on the on the base of it sounds like a 29 00:02:19.439 --> 00:02:22.759 simple question question, but maybe it isn't. And that's how do you define 30 00:02:22.840 --> 00:02:28.520 what a disability is? Well, yes, you say, that was my 31 00:02:28.759 --> 00:02:34.680 entire PhD. What the hell is it? So? I think that there 32 00:02:34.879 --> 00:02:42.719 is a evolved human functioning and disability is a negative departure from that. However, 33 00:02:43.560 --> 00:02:47.800 um, you know, everybody has a departure from how you could be, 34 00:02:49.879 --> 00:02:55.800 and therefore we always need to look at both disability and context. So 35 00:02:57.000 --> 00:03:01.759 what are you expecting people to do in our society at this time? And 36 00:03:01.919 --> 00:03:10.039 also to look at yeah, to look at cultural values behind what is the 37 00:03:10.080 --> 00:03:15.840 disability and what is not. For example, yeah, if I lacked the 38 00:03:15.919 --> 00:03:21.120 lowest digit of my hand, that wouldn't really be a disability to somebody who 39 00:03:21.199 --> 00:03:24.680 is working in academia. But if I was a concert pianist, there'd be 40 00:03:24.680 --> 00:03:30.000 a huge disability. I couldn't be a concert pianist. In a case of 41 00:03:30.080 --> 00:03:39.560 a comedian Dave Allen, he literally lacked the knuckle of his left hand. 42 00:03:40.199 --> 00:03:43.919 He made a joke out of it. He was a comedian to matter at 43 00:03:43.960 --> 00:03:47.240 all, but in other areas it might have mattered. And so it shows 44 00:03:47.319 --> 00:03:54.120 that what we think of as the disability is very cultural, very very defined 45 00:03:54.199 --> 00:03:59.439 by your context. And for example, there's a lot of attention at the 46 00:03:59.439 --> 00:04:05.159 moment to neurodiversity, and we realize that many people are neurodivergent, and of 47 00:04:05.159 --> 00:04:11.759 course you know that mental difference may manifest in different ways. There may be 48 00:04:11.879 --> 00:04:16.240 among people who may millions on struggling exchange or for their business. Or it 49 00:04:16.319 --> 00:04:20.519 may be people who are turned to a life of crime and end up in 50 00:04:20.560 --> 00:04:28.199 prison, but are very rule breaking and risk taking in their criminal career. 51 00:04:28.240 --> 00:04:33.600 As it were, so our cultural values say, really, whether disabilities positive 52 00:04:33.680 --> 00:04:39.120 or negative? A lot of the time, are you kind of drifting slightly 53 00:04:39.160 --> 00:04:42.319 into what we call the social and the medical models there then in terms of 54 00:04:42.360 --> 00:04:47.360 the disability being socially constructed, if you like, yes, and am not 55 00:04:47.439 --> 00:04:54.279 surprisingly because that's what I know us about. And what happened was that historically 56 00:04:55.399 --> 00:04:58.800 disabled people would defined as people with things wrong with them. They had the 57 00:04:58.879 --> 00:05:03.079 death set of mind, body, They explained their social situation. And if 58 00:05:03.120 --> 00:05:08.480 you like, this is a case of biological reductionism. And when I say 59 00:05:08.519 --> 00:05:12.839 it like that, immediately our hackles go up. We get they worried because 60 00:05:12.879 --> 00:05:19.639 of course, you know, slavery, a gender subordination, a pressure of 61 00:05:19.720 --> 00:05:26.079 lesbian, gay people, all of it was justified on the basis of biological 62 00:05:26.120 --> 00:05:30.519 difference. You know, it's not that we are nasty people. It's merely 63 00:05:30.680 --> 00:05:34.240 that they deserve to be subordinate to the master race or whatever it might be, 64 00:05:35.240 --> 00:05:42.639 and therefore we should look very carefully at disability and how much is depending 65 00:05:42.759 --> 00:05:47.279 on what we expect people to be and on our narrow range of acceptability and 66 00:05:47.680 --> 00:05:51.399 the way that we construct our environments. For example, I went to a 67 00:05:51.399 --> 00:05:56.800 college which had never had women before I arrived, and when I arrived, 68 00:05:57.000 --> 00:06:02.319 I arrived with a cohort women too. And this college was founded in thirteen 69 00:06:02.439 --> 00:06:08.240 forty seven, and one thing it didn't have was women's toilets, and of 70 00:06:08.279 --> 00:06:14.680 course women you know generally, they're not unisex toilets, so that there had 71 00:06:14.720 --> 00:06:17.839 to be installed far more women's toilets. Now that is a classic case of 72 00:06:18.319 --> 00:06:25.800 because it had not been part of the of the academic institution, it was 73 00:06:25.920 --> 00:06:30.399 not part of the architectural landscape. And the same as the case with disabled 74 00:06:30.439 --> 00:06:34.360 people. I use a wheelchair, So when I can't get into a building, 75 00:06:34.839 --> 00:06:40.439 is that because it doesn't have accessibility or is it because I don't have 76 00:06:40.600 --> 00:06:45.920 walking as one of my abilities? Now, yeah, you know all about 77 00:06:46.040 --> 00:06:48.720 medical social models. I'm glad of that, But what I want to say 78 00:06:49.000 --> 00:06:55.519 is that whereas disability is socially created, there are lots of Like I gave 79 00:06:55.600 --> 00:07:00.160 the example of the building lots of examples of that. There is all so 80 00:07:00.160 --> 00:07:03.879 an intrinsic biological element. So what I want to do is to balance the 81 00:07:03.959 --> 00:07:09.759 biological and the social, and the cultural and psychological for that matter. And 82 00:07:09.800 --> 00:07:13.920 I want to say they all go into the makeup of what it takes what 83 00:07:14.040 --> 00:07:16.959 it is to be disabled. And I don't want us to, as it 84 00:07:17.000 --> 00:07:21.360 were, forget that we have bodies and that they don't always work as we 85 00:07:21.399 --> 00:07:26.480 want them to. With that in mind, then how do you Because there's 86 00:07:26.480 --> 00:07:30.800 obviously subcategories of disability. So what are those subcategories that we tend to talk 87 00:07:30.839 --> 00:07:40.399 about within disability? Well, we might think about physical impairments, and obviously 88 00:07:40.439 --> 00:07:44.439 I was born with the physical impairment. We might think of mental health conditions, 89 00:07:44.920 --> 00:07:48.759 and then we're into a whole area of both common and mental disorders as 90 00:07:48.800 --> 00:07:54.600 they are called I wouldn't use that term disorder, but like depression or anxiety, 91 00:07:54.759 --> 00:08:00.639 whatever, and then more serious mental illness like schizophrenia, bipolar condition, 92 00:08:00.839 --> 00:08:03.920 or personality disorder, which are much more a life long if you like. 93 00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:11.120 We also talk about learning difficulties, which again come in a range from you 94 00:08:11.160 --> 00:08:16.319 know, obviously you know about dancer or so forth, but this idea is 95 00:08:16.480 --> 00:08:22.879 very instant that we have an average idea of our hundred and learning disability defined 96 00:08:22.920 --> 00:08:28.720 as two standard deviations be low average, and that counts as learningly disabled. 97 00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:35.600 And so of course lots of people in society have learning disability of no obvious 98 00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:41.159 cause, and they may be captured within that. But you can immediately see 99 00:08:41.320 --> 00:08:46.879 how our notions of average, how our notions to standard deviation, and they're 100 00:08:46.919 --> 00:08:50.600 the ways that we define this, but there's contingent. They are what we 101 00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:58.519 decide to define, and of course we live I'm taking this slide of of 102 00:08:58.200 --> 00:09:03.919 the Trinity Dublin long rum. Look at all these books. We live in 103 00:09:03.080 --> 00:09:09.000 a knowledge economy, and of course that immediately disables people. We're learning difficulties 104 00:09:09.080 --> 00:09:15.759 who can't read or can't retain information, so fitz flip, mental impairment, 105 00:09:16.080 --> 00:09:20.279 mental illness, learning difficulties. We also have, obviously, the whole railm 106 00:09:20.399 --> 00:09:28.320 of sensory conditions like deafness and bliness, deaflineness, and again we might say, 107 00:09:28.360 --> 00:09:33.000 well, is it that somebody's death or is it that we don't know 108 00:09:33.240 --> 00:09:37.879 sign language who we can't converse with a deaf person In the same way, 109 00:09:39.159 --> 00:09:43.080 there's a famous book by my friend Noura Gross. Well, everyone here spoke 110 00:09:43.240 --> 00:09:48.000 signed, which is about Martha's Vineyard, which was said is an island of 111 00:09:48.120 --> 00:09:56.480 Massachusetts. And because it was settled in the pilgrim Father's days by people who 112 00:09:56.480 --> 00:10:00.679 had a hereditary form of deafness, they were not the jority, but there 113 00:10:00.679 --> 00:10:07.519 were a substantial minority, and so everybody used Sia language. And what Laura 114 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:11.159 found when she interviewed old folks from that community was they couldn't really remember who 115 00:10:11.240 --> 00:10:16.399 was definitely who wasn't because everybody used side language, and therefore being death was 116 00:10:16.480 --> 00:10:24.519 not so much for disability. And then I would also add chronic health conditions. 117 00:10:24.559 --> 00:10:28.000 So a lot of these are invisible, so there might be MSS or 118 00:10:28.159 --> 00:10:33.840 dabets or epilepsy. Now, what's quite interesting about all of these conditions, 119 00:10:33.879 --> 00:10:39.799 but particularly chronic health conditions, is that we have an objective idea that these 120 00:10:39.840 --> 00:10:46.279 people or those people have something which makes them disabled. But subjectively they may 121 00:10:46.320 --> 00:10:50.120 not think of themselves that are disabled at all. And of course half all 122 00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:58.120 disabled people over the age of sixty and older people obviously often don't define this 123 00:10:58.320 --> 00:11:01.799 disabled at all. They may have functional deficits, but they say, well, 124 00:11:01.799 --> 00:11:07.960 this is just normal aging. This is natural. So and indeed, 125 00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:13.799 when the former Disability Rights Commission did research, they found that fifty percent of 126 00:11:13.840 --> 00:11:18.679 people who had rights under the Disability Discrimination Act, which is what we used 127 00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:24.080 to have before the Equality Act, fifty percent of people who were covered by 128 00:11:24.080 --> 00:11:28.360 that act didn't think of themselves as disabled at all. And therefore they changed 129 00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:31.799 their strap line. Instead of saying, where you know, I can't remember 130 00:11:31.840 --> 00:11:35.600 what it was, but we support the rights and disabled people, they said, 131 00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:41.799 we support the rights of people who are covered by the Disaposity of Discrimination 132 00:11:41.840 --> 00:11:48.039 Act or something like that. So you didn't have to define us disabled subjectively 133 00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:54.840 before you were covered by that projection. Interesting it is. Yeah. One 134 00:11:54.879 --> 00:11:58.279 of the questions a student put to me, and I struggled to answer it, 135 00:11:58.320 --> 00:12:01.240 so I thought, I put it to you. Is that they asked 136 00:12:01.240 --> 00:12:05.039 about that does it need to have Does the impairment need to have some sort 137 00:12:05.080 --> 00:12:09.399 of permanence? So, for example, if you were in a car accident, 138 00:12:09.480 --> 00:12:11.039 you broke your leg, okay, and you're in a cast or even 139 00:12:11.039 --> 00:12:16.279 in a wheelchair, but you know you will return back at some point, 140 00:12:16.600 --> 00:12:20.639 does that count as a disability? Well, according to the Convention of the 141 00:12:20.720 --> 00:12:24.679 Rights of the persons with disabilities. No, because that convention passed by the 142 00:12:24.799 --> 00:12:31.120 UN in two thousand and six defines the disability in terms of long term right. 143 00:12:33.200 --> 00:12:39.200 Having said that, somebody who is temporarily in a wheelchair or a splint 144 00:12:39.360 --> 00:12:46.840 or whatever, or has some other impairment finds out what it's like pretty quick. 145 00:12:46.639 --> 00:12:50.039 They find out that the world is not designed for people who are different, 146 00:12:50.159 --> 00:12:58.120 that's one thing. And they may start being seen as dependent, they 147 00:12:58.200 --> 00:13:03.360 might start being seen as capable, and so they again they get some sense 148 00:13:03.399 --> 00:13:09.559 to the stigma involved in disability and the way that people are treated. However, 149 00:13:09.080 --> 00:13:15.240 as you say, they're not long term disabled. So they get out 150 00:13:15.240 --> 00:13:20.360 of it and then hopefully their views are changed. They are more inclusive and 151 00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:26.519 less likely to define people as incapable merely because they can't do a thing. 152 00:13:28.639 --> 00:13:35.080 And what I can't remember that I've I've talked about this before in lectures. 153 00:13:35.399 --> 00:13:39.840 I probably have. But we can think about a group of people who don't 154 00:13:39.879 --> 00:13:45.440 care their own money, live in safregot accommodation, don't go to normal schools, 155 00:13:46.279 --> 00:13:52.559 are stared at wherever they go, and this would sound like a very 156 00:13:52.639 --> 00:13:58.960 sigmatize negative experience, but it would also count as a description of the British 157 00:13:58.120 --> 00:14:09.879 royal family. So clearly, clearly there is a difference between physical dependency flight 158 00:14:09.919 --> 00:14:15.720 and social pendency. You can be physically very dependent on the people and socially 159 00:14:15.960 --> 00:14:20.879 very independent, so you can be very powerful in fact, and in fact 160 00:14:20.919 --> 00:14:26.159 in the historical societies, the more that people had things done for them, 161 00:14:28.519 --> 00:14:33.360 the more powerful they were. So this is really odd in a way that 162 00:14:33.519 --> 00:14:39.320 the definition of power is having somebody else wipe your bottom. That's not, 163 00:14:39.720 --> 00:14:45.039 you know, the gentleman of the school they were called. I believe that 164 00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:48.720 is not what we think of. We think of people being very dependent. 165 00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:52.000 But it doesn't have to be like that, and therefore we should try and 166 00:14:52.360 --> 00:14:58.519 as it were, a change those social relations to give people more respect, 167 00:14:58.120 --> 00:15:03.279 whether or not they need other people to do things with them more for the 168 00:15:03.399 --> 00:15:09.279 more to make their lives better. The Sociology Show podcast relies on the kind 169 00:15:09.320 --> 00:15:13.919 contributions of sponsorship and donations. If you enjoy the show, then you can 170 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:18.639 help with the hosting costs by donating as little as five pounds on the go 171 00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:24.559 fund me page. Simply visit UK dot GoFundMe dot com and search for the 172 00:15:24.600 --> 00:15:28.159 Sociology Show If you can donate, then you will be sent to Sociology showpen 173 00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:35.200 as a small thank you for your continued support of the show. You mentioned 174 00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:37.639 the word stigma. One of the questions I wanted to put to you was 175 00:15:37.799 --> 00:15:43.480 about representations in the media. I just wondered where you thought we were at 176 00:15:43.480 --> 00:15:46.360 the moment. There's arguments to say that things have got much better, much 177 00:15:46.360 --> 00:15:52.080 improved, but there's also arguments to say that often representations are still very stereotyped 178 00:15:52.519 --> 00:15:54.919 and still quite basic. I was interested to put that question too, where 179 00:15:54.919 --> 00:15:58.879 you thought we were at the moment. With that, I think you're right. 180 00:15:58.919 --> 00:16:03.919 I think disability have improved massively over my lifetime. I just had my 181 00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:10.759 fot seventh birthday, and when I do a lectures about disability to lay audiences 182 00:16:10.879 --> 00:16:15.080 or student audiences or whatever, I have to obviously check my examples, not 183 00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:19.279 just because they're all old and people that understand them, but also because there 184 00:16:19.279 --> 00:16:26.919 have been improvements. So but you know, it takes a lot of time 185 00:16:26.320 --> 00:16:30.840 to change attitudes. When I was young, gay people, gay men were 186 00:16:30.919 --> 00:16:38.120 seen as being effeminine and camp and you know, and figure it's fun. 187 00:16:38.440 --> 00:16:45.559 And now absolutely there is total I think total acceptance total inclusion and good arrange 188 00:16:45.559 --> 00:16:51.320 of good images. So gay people from me lots of different things and can 189 00:16:51.399 --> 00:16:57.399 be celebrated for that. Now that change happened in over years. So as 190 00:16:57.399 --> 00:17:03.240 I say, in twenty or thirty years, Larry Grayson or John Inman or 191 00:17:03.279 --> 00:17:10.359 whatever being very camp and now it's nobody really cares and it's accepted now, 192 00:17:10.759 --> 00:17:15.880 not by everybody and not everywhere, but broadly. And so the change in 193 00:17:15.960 --> 00:17:21.200 disability representation is going to take a long time. But we see many more 194 00:17:21.559 --> 00:17:30.039 disabled people being actors. We see the story of the disability movement being represented 195 00:17:30.039 --> 00:17:36.160 by writers like Jack Thorne or in film. And I don't know, I 196 00:17:36.200 --> 00:17:42.279 didn't see it, but you know this film When Barbara Met Johnny was about 197 00:17:42.319 --> 00:17:48.079 Barbara Lasinki and Johnny Trender. I used to I know them very well. 198 00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:51.559 I used to perform with them, and now they're the subject of a sort 199 00:17:51.599 --> 00:17:56.240 of biopic on the BBC. So it's a very odd for me who's lived 200 00:17:56.240 --> 00:18:00.000 through it. It's a very odd thing to see. But there are more 201 00:18:00.039 --> 00:18:08.160 representations. But I also think that we have a what's the word, a 202 00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:12.960 body fascism that now more and more bodies have to be a certain way and 203 00:18:14.079 --> 00:18:18.039 how to be young and now have to be capable and would actually been so 204 00:18:18.519 --> 00:18:23.960 our tolerance of difference has reduced, so there is a sort of you know, 205 00:18:25.079 --> 00:18:27.920 disabled people are fine, but everybody is going to have to be much 206 00:18:27.960 --> 00:18:33.839 more and only certain solid disabled people. A friend of mine, Yan Grewer, 207 00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:40.599 in Norway, did talk about or an article about representations of disability in 208 00:18:40.799 --> 00:18:44.400 Norwegian television, and what I found was that yeah, if you could do 209 00:18:44.440 --> 00:18:47.880 outward bounds, so you're physically strong, then it didn't matter if you're a 210 00:18:47.880 --> 00:18:52.359 wheelchair, but if you're a frail, if you had a fatigue related impairment, 211 00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:57.160 you are not covered. And the same you could say for wonderful representations 212 00:18:57.200 --> 00:19:02.559 of the Paralympics. Yes, if you're a winner, that's fine, but 213 00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:07.920 a lot of disabled people couldn't possibly do those things and we want their actually 214 00:19:07.960 --> 00:19:14.000 their representation to be changed as well. So is there still I know there's 215 00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:19.480 been lots of writing about that the representations are either oversimplified or stereotyped or often 216 00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:23.440 patronizing. I think is the work that comes up that's still the case, 217 00:19:23.519 --> 00:19:27.920 you would say, I think there's a greater range. I think disabled people 218 00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:33.160 are allowed to be more things. But I mean historically disabled people were, 219 00:19:33.519 --> 00:19:38.599 as it were, second dying tragic for brave and plucky and and and people 220 00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:44.319 like telling team in in in Well. I used to call it Dickens Christmas 221 00:19:44.359 --> 00:19:48.759 Carol. I now call it a muppet Christmas Carl. People might remember that 222 00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:55.599 or they were actually evil. So I'm sorry about all the Ricardists out there. 223 00:19:55.599 --> 00:19:59.440 But riches the third you know, written by Shakespeare's a hunchback, and 224 00:20:00.599 --> 00:20:04.519 yeah, even the dogs bark in my passing. But lots of negative, 225 00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:12.279 physically deformed characters. James Bond villains often very physically deformed and so forth. 226 00:20:12.599 --> 00:20:18.720 And then thirdly, there's sort of super cript idea, and I think that 227 00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:23.839 like Stephen Hawking, you know, a crippled man but solving problems the universe, 228 00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:32.559 or a lot of stereotypes of disabled people are about this sort of super 229 00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:37.680 crip idea. Now, what's wonderful now is so people are just able to 230 00:20:37.720 --> 00:20:44.440 be human, just able to be intersting, boring, bad, good, 231 00:20:44.799 --> 00:20:49.319 sexy, un sexy, the range like other human beings. And that's what 232 00:20:49.759 --> 00:20:56.279 that's what disabled people want. They want that range of stereotype that they don't 233 00:20:56.319 --> 00:21:00.680 want sunny flip from being always useless to being oh it's powerful. They want 234 00:21:00.680 --> 00:21:03.359 to go, yeah, I'll do it something some bad other things. You 235 00:21:03.400 --> 00:21:08.000 know, what day is it? So almost it shouldn't be the sensual sort 236 00:21:08.039 --> 00:21:15.000 of narrative of the stories exactly exactly what we've what we want. Some of 237 00:21:15.279 --> 00:21:22.880 my American friends called narrative prosthesis, and what they mean is that that disabilities 238 00:21:22.920 --> 00:21:26.559 lack a crutch for the writers. So they go, oh, disabled he'll 239 00:21:26.599 --> 00:21:30.519 be struggling to come to terms, or disabled he'll be bitter and twisted, 240 00:21:30.680 --> 00:21:37.720 or disabled he'll have overcome his limitations and be better than anybody else. And 241 00:21:37.079 --> 00:21:45.880 these stereotypes, these one dimensional plot ideas, make for very shallow film and 242 00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:49.559 TV. And if you think about it, these stereotypes are what we used 243 00:21:49.559 --> 00:21:53.640 to have with with with with black folk, an Asian folk, or gay 244 00:21:53.680 --> 00:21:59.000 folk. They are very limited. Yeah, it's it's like, no, 245 00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:03.799 that's not We're like, we're ordinary human beings and you know, we do 246 00:22:03.880 --> 00:22:07.079 everything you do, but we're just a little bit different. And that does 247 00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:12.279 not explain why we do what we do or whether we succeeded whether what we 248 00:22:12.359 --> 00:22:18.039 do. I probably should have asked you this right at the start on are 249 00:22:18.039 --> 00:22:19.759 you happy? Because lots of students would have seen your name in a book 250 00:22:19.759 --> 00:22:25.680 but might not be aware of your own disability. So I've got I've got 251 00:22:25.759 --> 00:22:29.720 lots. So, first of all, I was born an a kind of 252 00:22:29.720 --> 00:22:33.519 plasia, long long word. It basically is a genetic condition. My father 253 00:22:33.599 --> 00:22:37.480 had it, he said, now my children have with my granddaughter had to 254 00:22:37.519 --> 00:22:41.839 it. So that's why my arms you know, I spreading up my arm 255 00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:44.680 as here, but they're not very long, and I've got a slightly different 256 00:22:44.720 --> 00:22:48.680 shaped head. Um. So that's that's what I was born with. In 257 00:22:49.559 --> 00:22:53.799 two thousand and eight, I became paralyzed. That's partly, Well, that's 258 00:22:53.960 --> 00:22:59.640 largely because I have a kind of plasia. And so can you hear me? 259 00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:04.000 We're around and bashing around in my living room, so I use the 260 00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:10.079 wheel chair. I'm paralyzed, so that's an acquired impairment. And thirdly, 261 00:23:10.839 --> 00:23:14.799 a little while ago or a couple of years ago, during lockdown in fact, 262 00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:17.880 I said to my colleague, oh, I don't really understand that on 263 00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:21.160 a bit of ADHD and she said, are you really? And I went, 264 00:23:21.400 --> 00:23:23.279 yeah, wow, I don't know um, and she said, well, 265 00:23:23.319 --> 00:23:27.480 should get tested, And so I went and got tested and I do. 266 00:23:27.640 --> 00:23:33.480 I do have ADHD. So and in a way you started this interview 267 00:23:33.519 --> 00:23:37.000 by saying, why have you done so many different things? Well, that 268 00:23:37.160 --> 00:23:41.000 is class at ADHD behavior. You get bored and you do something else, 269 00:23:41.960 --> 00:23:47.240 and you're not very good at sticking at things. And I think that's actually 270 00:23:47.240 --> 00:23:49.480 a strength as well as a weakness. I'm not you know, look at 271 00:23:49.480 --> 00:23:53.400 all these books. I'm not necessarily the great scholar of who's written a hundred 272 00:23:53.400 --> 00:23:59.880 books, but I am the stealer breath. Field of Breath is very good. 273 00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:03.880 And on that point, talking about your your your different books are different 274 00:24:03.880 --> 00:24:07.799 writing. One of my colleagues said, you've got to asking this. I 275 00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:11.200 think a colleague of mine saw you talk recently and she mentioned you were writing 276 00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:15.720 or have written something about disability and sex and she said, you've got to 277 00:24:15.720 --> 00:24:19.839 ask Tom about this. I wrote a book a long time ago with Kath 278 00:24:21.240 --> 00:24:26.920 Gillaspie's Elves as Sadly just Died and Dominic Davis called the Sexual Politics and Disability. 279 00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:32.559 And this is the first book I wrote in I think nineteen ninety six, 280 00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:38.680 and we did an update twenty years later. We talked to people in 281 00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:47.079 twenty sixteen and wrote an update myself and Sarah Richardson. So but so I 282 00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:52.200 am. We've just been in a big bid to look at sexual reproductive health, 283 00:24:52.400 --> 00:24:55.559 for to say, with people in Britain. So we're waiting on tent 284 00:24:55.680 --> 00:25:00.079 hook CEO. You're putting your funny bid and sometimes they work sometimes. So 285 00:25:00.240 --> 00:25:07.680 we really want to explore whether disabled people get access to sexual unless the education, 286 00:25:07.079 --> 00:25:15.400 abortion, contraception, pregnancy disease, sexual sexual restance, diseases, all 287 00:25:15.480 --> 00:25:18.319 of that spreading. We want to know sexual violence. We want to know 288 00:25:18.440 --> 00:25:23.640 whether disabled people who included in those provisions. So yeah, I am still 289 00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:30.319 very instant and sex u and I hope to do more work in that area. 290 00:25:32.200 --> 00:25:36.079 Fantastic. I wondered, as well as just thinking, just flipping back 291 00:25:36.079 --> 00:25:40.960 to the media for a moment, what your interpretation was of programs like Undatables, 292 00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:42.720 Love on the Spectrum and so on again. Do they fall into the 293 00:25:42.799 --> 00:25:47.640 patronizing, the hedge patting sort of looking down or not? How do you 294 00:25:47.720 --> 00:25:51.000 feel about them? I mean, obviously what one of the I would say, 295 00:25:51.119 --> 00:25:53.480 and I think a lot of disabled people would say, I'm datables, 296 00:25:53.559 --> 00:25:59.599 what a terrible, terrible title. But I actually did watch one of the 297 00:25:59.759 --> 00:26:04.039 pro grams and because friend of mine soon vite voiceover. But I thought, 298 00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:08.200 well, actually, you know, this is quite sweet. But as soon 299 00:26:08.240 --> 00:26:11.319 as you find yourself going, oh, this is very sweet, as you 300 00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:18.119 say, you get into the cute slightly patronizing. And the question which all 301 00:26:18.160 --> 00:26:25.880 disabled people have asked is why aren't there disabled people on regular programs, you 302 00:26:25.960 --> 00:26:30.799 know, whether it's stating programs or makeover programs or grease shows or whatever else. 303 00:26:30.160 --> 00:26:34.680 Why aren't they just there? Because we are part of the population. 304 00:26:36.680 --> 00:26:40.160 There are billion, more than a billion des sabled people in the world, 305 00:26:40.400 --> 00:26:44.400 and we may come about fifteen percent of the population, about one in a 306 00:26:45.240 --> 00:26:49.480 or more of the population. And therefore, why aren't we just there? 307 00:26:49.880 --> 00:26:56.000 Why aren't we contestants from time to time? Why aren't we on the apprentices 308 00:26:56.039 --> 00:27:00.400 from time to time? And increasingly we are. So that's really sighting, 309 00:27:00.480 --> 00:27:03.039 it's really good, and so we should be and I think, yeah, 310 00:27:03.839 --> 00:27:08.880 this picture of of the long library and the book accows around the corner. 311 00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:12.799 This is Trinity College, Dublin libraries. The slide I used. Look at 312 00:27:12.880 --> 00:27:18.440 those statues. They're all white men, and they're all non disabled white men, 313 00:27:18.680 --> 00:27:22.799 And it could be anywhere in the in the normal hemisphere really, and 314 00:27:22.039 --> 00:27:26.039 we want to change that. We want to say we're not all white men. 315 00:27:26.240 --> 00:27:30.519 We are diverse, we're different, we're men and women, and we're 316 00:27:30.599 --> 00:27:34.240 defined and differently with Dan straight that we define differently. We're disabled and we'n 317 00:27:34.240 --> 00:27:38.200 disabled and we defined differently. And I think that is how it should be. 318 00:27:38.319 --> 00:27:45.359 That's how it used. So let's have TV or magazines or museums that 319 00:27:45.559 --> 00:27:49.519 reflect that. I just wondered if there is there a difficult balance because quite 320 00:27:49.559 --> 00:27:53.640 often, you know, if there is a disabled character in a program, 321 00:27:53.720 --> 00:27:57.279 you get some oy rolling and this is just tokenism, that sort of feeling 322 00:27:57.359 --> 00:28:00.319 that they're they're they're just to sort make up the quota as you like. 323 00:28:00.920 --> 00:28:07.319 Yeah, yes, And I always wonder whether my career, my success and 324 00:28:07.400 --> 00:28:12.359 I have been quite successful, is explained by my inequalities, or because they 325 00:28:12.440 --> 00:28:18.039 wanted a disabled person and they thought, well, he's bright, he can 326 00:28:18.119 --> 00:28:22.240 taur will have him. And I think it's a mixture. Sometimes it is 327 00:28:22.359 --> 00:28:27.519 that he is tokenism. Having said that, even tokenism isn't complete waste of 328 00:28:27.599 --> 00:28:32.440 time. It's obviously you're not just seeking there silently not able to contribute. 329 00:28:32.519 --> 00:28:37.000 It's honously a plea of weight as it were within the context. Then for 330 00:28:37.160 --> 00:28:41.559 other disabled people who come after you, for disabled kids, they can see 331 00:28:41.960 --> 00:28:47.920 you in public spaces, they can see you in organizations, they can see 332 00:28:47.960 --> 00:28:49.839 you on the television or whatever it might be, and they go, you 333 00:28:49.920 --> 00:28:53.720 know what, I could do that too, And it is part of moving 334 00:28:53.880 --> 00:28:59.440 us towards what we want, which is that nobody cares. That's what we 335 00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:03.519 really what I'd said earlier, that whether they're going off straight, nobody cares. 336 00:29:03.759 --> 00:29:07.200 And that's exactly how it should be in terms of disability. There's what 337 00:29:07.319 --> 00:29:11.799 we would call reasonable combination. So let's make sure that you can get in 338 00:29:11.880 --> 00:29:15.079 the building, that you can use the toilet, that we take account of 339 00:29:15.160 --> 00:29:18.640 your of your difference, and then let's let you get on with it, 340 00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:23.880 and let's, you know, let a thousand flowers bloom or whatever. I'm 341 00:29:23.880 --> 00:29:29.200 glad to hear over your career on it sounds like that far more positives than 342 00:29:29.240 --> 00:29:32.000 negatives. You know, it's it's not perfect, but we are making huge 343 00:29:32.039 --> 00:29:37.240 progress, I think so. I think I think there are interestinct developments, 344 00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:41.400 like we've had a process of welfare reforming, like in them now a lot 345 00:29:41.480 --> 00:29:47.400 of disabled people still depend on whether benefits and therefore that has really hit them 346 00:29:47.480 --> 00:29:51.200 hard, harder than always say they think COVID is hit to say, were 347 00:29:51.279 --> 00:29:56.519 people hard not only because many disay were people are older or have compromised immune 348 00:29:56.559 --> 00:30:03.079 systems and are more at risk of COVID, but also because COVID the shutdown 349 00:30:03.599 --> 00:30:07.559 really negatively affective disabled people. And you can think of this, you know, 350 00:30:07.720 --> 00:30:11.559 you know the guide dogs, they're not able to social distance people with 351 00:30:11.799 --> 00:30:15.559 intellectual disability. What do they do all day? Will they go to the 352 00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:21.759 projects which are created and which have been all stopped during COVID so they were 353 00:30:21.799 --> 00:30:26.839 stuck at home watching the telling. So you know, it shows that this 354 00:30:29.559 --> 00:30:36.400 society that we take for granted is contingent, constructed, and if it's taken 355 00:30:36.440 --> 00:30:41.920 away, it can create a huge number of barriers and difficulties for people. 356 00:30:42.200 --> 00:30:47.400 Thank you, Thank you, Tom. I always ask people to give up 357 00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:49.039 some details at the engine and an interview, so people want to find out 358 00:30:49.079 --> 00:30:52.839 more about your work or follow you on Twitter? Are you happy to give 359 00:30:52.839 --> 00:30:56.720 out some Absolutely? So. If you don't know throughout disability, read my 360 00:30:56.839 --> 00:31:03.680 book Disability The Stinks because it is what it says on the packets. It's 361 00:31:03.799 --> 00:31:07.079 very straightforward. You should be in the library. If you really want to 362 00:31:07.119 --> 00:31:11.400 get the grits to it, read something like a Disability Rights and Wrongs or 363 00:31:11.720 --> 00:31:18.839 the Disability Reader, both of which will give you more extensive information. If 364 00:31:18.880 --> 00:31:22.960 you want to follow me on Twitter, it's at Tommy Shakes, so it's 365 00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:26.440 one who had Tommy shakes. Friend of mine used to sing Tommy shakes. 366 00:31:26.480 --> 00:31:33.720 I'm not called Tommy never closing tomic Tommy shakes. And my website is called 367 00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:41.240 a Farmer of Thoughts dot co dot uk, So farmer of thoughts all one 368 00:31:41.319 --> 00:31:47.400 word dot co dot uk. And that's quotation from Tom Payne, who was 369 00:31:47.559 --> 00:31:52.960 a radical who believed in boxy, who believed in freedom, and he said, 370 00:31:52.519 --> 00:31:56.039 I want to be a farmer of thoughts and all the crops I raised 371 00:31:56.079 --> 00:32:01.000 I give away. And that's very much what I think a public intellectual should 372 00:32:01.039 --> 00:32:07.079 be about these days in any country. Well, thank you very much for 373 00:32:07.519 --> 00:32:10.559 the details. Thank you very much for your time and also your sterling work 374 00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:15.960 throughout the years, and I think future students will continue to enjoy learning all 375 00:32:15.960 --> 00:32:20.680 about your research. It's a wonderful way of thinking about sociology is start with 376 00:32:20.799 --> 00:32:24.400 disability. That's my advice. Thank you, Thank you again for your time. 377 00:32:24.559 --> 00:32:31.200 By now, the Sociology Show podcast relies on the kind contributions of sponsorship 378 00:32:31.279 --> 00:32:35.759 and donations. If you enjoy the show, then you can help with the 379 00:32:35.839 --> 00:32:38.880 hosting costs by donating as little as five pounds on the go fund me page. 380 00:32:39.440 --> 00:32:45.880 Simply visit UK dot GoFundMe dot com and search for the Sociology Show. 381 00:32:45.519 --> 00:32:50.160 If you can donate, then you will be sent to Sociology showpen as a 382 00:32:50.200 --> 00:32:54.240 small thank you for your continued support of the show. Thank you for taking 383 00:32:54.279 --> 00:32:58.359 the time to listen to the podcast. If you would like to contact the 384 00:32:58.400 --> 00:33:04.119 show or be interviewed, then please email the Sociology Show Podcast at gmail dot com.