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Hello and good morning. How are
you doing today. I'm fine, Thank

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you. I am so proud of
you of putting girls black girls play together.

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And the reason why is because I'm
here in the South and I for

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thirty four years, I've been watching
these girls play these games over and over

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and over again, and now I
get to know the history of it.

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Yes, it's a beautiful thing,
and we really thank ESPN for thirty for

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thirty for really providing this platform to
kind of flip the script a little bit.

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In your studies, did you did
you discover anything that you know,

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hand eye coordination which has helped out
each one of these girls in playing games

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and getting into sports and putting focus
on becoming successful in life. Well,

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I think that there is definitely.
It reinforces a sense of community. Yea,

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certainly. But I think what was
really revelatory for me was the extent

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of what the influence of these handgames
have had on American popular culture, you

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know wide, you know, from
hip hop to jazz, to gospel to

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TikTok, all of those things,
you know, can be traced back to

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those very you know, simple handgames
that we've played in that we played on

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the playground what was the one thing
that led you back into the history of

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this Because I'm always on Google or
I'm always trying to do research on different

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things, but you went the extra
mile and you turned it into something that's

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landed on ESPN. Well, I
think it's mostly Kira Gaunt. She's an

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ethno musicologist who wrote the book The
Games Black Girls Play, Learning the Ropes

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from Double Dutch to hip Hop,
and she, you know, in her

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very sort of meticulous research, connects
the dots for us, you know,

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from from West Africa. You know, the practice that include you know,

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polyrhythmic beats, this song and dance, the innovation, the individuality, the

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call and response that were all retained
even when the drama was taken away.

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They were retained through the bodily expressions
in the hang games that young black girls

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played. And she connected that then
to the influence and looking at how hip

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hop is made, how jazz is
performed, yes, and even oratory and

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gospel. So for me, you
know, her groundbreaking book is really at

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the center of the film and of
these revelations for us, I'm so glad

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that you brought up hip hop and
the connection with these games and the reason

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being is because I just did a
high school dance and sure we played a

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ton of hip hop, but they
were doing this on the dance floor and

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it goes with it so well.
And I looked at my wife and I

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said, why do we need another
line dance when they've got it already made

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right now exactly the circle dance.
The fact that even with hang games would

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it preserves too is that you can
go in that circle, play, innovate,

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people support you, you come back
out, and someone else come in.

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So there's a sense of community and
a sense of a you know,

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egalitarian sort of like democratic expression where
whatever you do, we're going to cheer

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you, you know, And so
that's that's a beautiful thing, making it

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a part of this this journey that
you that you put up on an ESPN,

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you break out into some amazing conversations
with musicians, educators, and so

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much more. I mean, it's
like you've invited the community to come in

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and share their story. Yes,
precisely. And I think what was really

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also revelatory for us is when we
spoke to the musicians, when we spoke

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to the experts, they could trace
back so the very time, you know,

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the influence that the hang games had
on them and their choices in music

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and what they wanted to study or
how they wanted to see things. So

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it was really quite fascinating. You
know. One kickler's story is Marvele Moore

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goes back to, you know,
the times of segregation, where she created

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a hand game to heal herself from
a particular difficult experience that she had,

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and those hand games she shared with
other friends and it was a part of

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being in community and sort of revalidating
herself. So they have even a healing

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quality, these games that we see
girls play outside. You know, it's

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interesting that so many girls have played
these games and continue to play the games

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as well as invent them. Like
you say, but why aren't the guys

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participating? Because is it just a
girls thing? It can't be. I

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don't think it's just a girl's thing. But it's interesting enough when we're you

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know, when we were having conversations
or even my own personal experience, you

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know, we were actually excluded from
the games that boys would play, right,

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but they continue to play, whether
basketball or baseball or soccer or whatever

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they were playing on the playground.
We weren't a lot, right, and

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so it was a way of sort
of creating a safe space with those games.

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And interestingly enough, and we make
that point in the film, these

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games, whether it's basketball or others, we continue to watch them, and

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the men continue to play it and
get paid for it, you know,

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and yet we don't have we don't
have that. I mean, we have

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women playing the sports, but not
the hang games don't get the same sort

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of love. Yeah, Because I
remember coming in from the outfield at Ponderosa

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Elementary School in Billings, Montana,
and I would see the girls doing this

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while playing you know, four square, or while they were waiting in line

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to do the tether ball, and
it was like, God, I want

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to be a part of this as
well. Because it was always laughter,

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it was always smiling, it was
always about a conversation, and it's like

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I want to be a part of
that. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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But I think there was something special
about you know, I don't want to

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say keeping it to our but being
able to be to be together to do

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it, you know. Now.
I don't want to sound like the grumpy

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old man here, but I love
watching the girls do it today because they're

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not playing with their smartphones, they're
not on there trying to find the latest

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TikTok song or going on to Spotify
looking for a song. They're actually putting

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their smartphones down, Yes, totally, although we do find them also recording

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their games, yes, line,
I mean we have not. We have

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a lot of that footage from all
over the world actually of girls recording their

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own hand games and sharing it online. So somehow they still incorporate the technology.

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Is it a form of communication,
Oh, definitely, definitely. It's

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definitely the form of communication and of
creating community and sort of evalidating each other.

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And you know, when when under
slavery, you know, the drum

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was taken away, there are other
forms of African musical likes expression that were

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that were forbidden. You know,
Folks found a way to keep certain practices

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alive just through their own bodies.
And so there's something about that communication that's

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not verbal, but that is deep
and even ancestral. Let me ask you,

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and I'm probably gonna be weird asking
this question, but I've always believed

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that the cup game or the way
that people move the cups is the same

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thing as doing these games here,
or it's spun off from it. If

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they just brought in a cup to
make just a new, different kind of

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instrument. I'm sure there's a link
to that, but you know, I

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can't. I can't. I didn't
do that research. I don't know,

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but I'm sure that there are similarities. Like I say, I think that

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the polyrhythmic nature of these of these
hand games, what they're retaining, and

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how they're so spread out around the
country, there's definitely an influence of all

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American popular culture. My wife is
a school teacher and she says that individualism

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is really great, but when you
can team people together to do something as

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a united front, then therefore,
what we've got here is we've got a

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team that'll work together. Do you
see that as being a great team spirit

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builder? Definitely, Definitely, there's
something about it, and you hear it

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with the people we speak with in
the film. There's something that the community

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validates you. You are validated and
you feel of community and the sharing is

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really key, and yeah, it
helps us as we get older. Where

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can people go to find out more
about this and more importantly, how can

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they participate with everything that takes place? Well, the short film is streaming

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right now on ESPN Plus and yes, so they can feel inspired by it.

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It's a lot of fun to watch. We've screened it with audiences who've

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been moving in their seats and it's
a beautiful thing, so they will definitely

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learn something, but they're going to
enjoy it too. I love it.

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Please come back to the show anytime
in the future. The door is always

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going to be open for you.
Oh, thank you so much. I

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appreciate it. You'd be brilliant today. Okay, will do. Thank you

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for having me