Hello and good morning. How are you doing today. I'm fine, Thank
you. I am so proud of you of putting girls black girls play together.
And the reason why is because I'm here in the South and I for
thirty four years, I've been watching these girls play these games over and over
and over again, and now I get to know the history of it.
Yes, it's a beautiful thing, and we really thank ESPN for thirty for
thirty for really providing this platform to kind of flip the script a little bit.
In your studies, did you did you discover anything that you know,
hand eye coordination which has helped out each one of these girls in playing games
and getting into sports and putting focus on becoming successful in life. Well,
I think that there is definitely. It reinforces a sense of community. Yea,
certainly. But I think what was really revelatory for me was the extent
of what the influence of these handgames have had on American popular culture, you
know wide, you know, from hip hop to jazz, to gospel to
TikTok, all of those things, you know, can be traced back to
those very you know, simple handgames that we've played in that we played on
the playground what was the one thing that led you back into the history of
this Because I'm always on Google or I'm always trying to do research on different
things, but you went the extra mile and you turned it into something that's
landed on ESPN. Well, I think it's mostly Kira Gaunt. She's an
ethno musicologist who wrote the book The Games Black Girls Play, Learning the Ropes
from Double Dutch to hip Hop, and she, you know, in her
very sort of meticulous research, connects the dots for us, you know,
from from West Africa. You know, the practice that include you know,
polyrhythmic beats, this song and dance, the innovation, the individuality, the
call and response that were all retained even when the drama was taken away.
They were retained through the bodily expressions in the hang games that young black girls
played. And she connected that then to the influence and looking at how hip
hop is made, how jazz is performed, yes, and even oratory and
gospel. So for me, you know, her groundbreaking book is really at
the center of the film and of these revelations for us, I'm so glad
that you brought up hip hop and the connection with these games and the reason
being is because I just did a high school dance and sure we played a
ton of hip hop, but they were doing this on the dance floor and
it goes with it so well. And I looked at my wife and I
said, why do we need another line dance when they've got it already made
right now exactly the circle dance. The fact that even with hang games would
it preserves too is that you can go in that circle, play, innovate,
people support you, you come back out, and someone else come in.
So there's a sense of community and a sense of a you know,
egalitarian sort of like democratic expression where whatever you do, we're going to cheer
you, you know, And so that's that's a beautiful thing, making it
a part of this this journey that you that you put up on an ESPN,
you break out into some amazing conversations with musicians, educators, and so
much more. I mean, it's like you've invited the community to come in
and share their story. Yes, precisely. And I think what was really
also revelatory for us is when we spoke to the musicians, when we spoke
to the experts, they could trace back so the very time, you know,
the influence that the hang games had on them and their choices in music
and what they wanted to study or how they wanted to see things. So
it was really quite fascinating. You know. One kickler's story is Marvele Moore
goes back to, you know, the times of segregation, where she created
a hand game to heal herself from a particular difficult experience that she had,
and those hand games she shared with other friends and it was a part of
being in community and sort of revalidating herself. So they have even a healing
quality, these games that we see girls play outside. You know, it's
interesting that so many girls have played these games and continue to play the games
as well as invent them. Like you say, but why aren't the guys
participating? Because is it just a girls thing? It can't be. I
don't think it's just a girl's thing. But it's interesting enough when we're you
know, when we were having conversations or even my own personal experience, you
know, we were actually excluded from the games that boys would play, right,
but they continue to play, whether basketball or baseball or soccer or whatever
they were playing on the playground. We weren't a lot, right, and
so it was a way of sort of creating a safe space with those games.
And interestingly enough, and we make that point in the film, these
games, whether it's basketball or others, we continue to watch them, and
the men continue to play it and get paid for it, you know,
and yet we don't have we don't have that. I mean, we have
women playing the sports, but not the hang games don't get the same sort
of love. Yeah, Because I remember coming in from the outfield at Ponderosa
Elementary School in Billings, Montana, and I would see the girls doing this
while playing you know, four square, or while they were waiting in line
to do the tether ball, and it was like, God, I want
to be a part of this as well. Because it was always laughter,
it was always smiling, it was always about a conversation, and it's like
I want to be a part of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
But I think there was something special about you know, I don't want to
say keeping it to our but being able to be to be together to do
it, you know. Now. I don't want to sound like the grumpy
old man here, but I love watching the girls do it today because they're
not playing with their smartphones, they're not on there trying to find the latest
TikTok song or going on to Spotify looking for a song. They're actually putting
their smartphones down, Yes, totally, although we do find them also recording
their games, yes, line, I mean we have not. We have
a lot of that footage from all over the world actually of girls recording their
own hand games and sharing it online. So somehow they still incorporate the technology.
Is it a form of communication, Oh, definitely, definitely. It's
definitely the form of communication and of creating community and sort of evalidating each other.
And you know, when when under slavery, you know, the drum
was taken away, there are other forms of African musical likes expression that were
that were forbidden. You know, Folks found a way to keep certain practices
alive just through their own bodies. And so there's something about that communication that's
not verbal, but that is deep and even ancestral. Let me ask you,
and I'm probably gonna be weird asking this question, but I've always believed
that the cup game or the way that people move the cups is the same
thing as doing these games here, or it's spun off from it. If
they just brought in a cup to make just a new, different kind of
instrument. I'm sure there's a link to that, but you know, I
can't. I can't. I didn't do that research. I don't know,
but I'm sure that there are similarities. Like I say, I think that
the polyrhythmic nature of these of these hand games, what they're retaining, and
how they're so spread out around the country, there's definitely an influence of all
American popular culture. My wife is a school teacher and she says that individualism
is really great, but when you can team people together to do something as
a united front, then therefore, what we've got here is we've got a
team that'll work together. Do you see that as being a great team spirit
builder? Definitely, Definitely, there's something about it, and you hear it
with the people we speak with in the film. There's something that the community
validates you. You are validated and you feel of community and the sharing is
really key, and yeah, it helps us as we get older. Where
can people go to find out more about this and more importantly, how can
they participate with everything that takes place? Well, the short film is streaming
right now on ESPN Plus and yes, so they can feel inspired by it.
It's a lot of fun to watch. We've screened it with audiences who've
been moving in their seats and it's a beautiful thing, so they will definitely
learn something, but they're going to enjoy it too. I love it.
Please come back to the show anytime in the future. The door is always
going to be open for you. Oh, thank you so much. I
appreciate it. You'd be brilliant today. Okay, will do. Thank you
for having me