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Hi, this is Dan Held,
this is Gary Leland, and you're listening

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to the episode one thirty eight of
the Crypto Cousins podcast. Fat your interest

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in bitcoin and cryptocurrencies by joining Hall
of Fame podcaster Gary Leland on the Crypto

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Cousins podcast. And remember we are
all cousins in the world of crypto.

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This week's price of bitcoin nine thousand, seven hundred and twenty eight dollars.

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That's up eight hundred and fifty two
dollars or nine point five percent over the

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past seven days. How do how
do howdy? Dan? Welcome to Wait

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a second, how are you another? Howdy? Howdy? How do you

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we get Texans? Four? Howdies? That's right? And actually went to

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Texas A and M. So that's
the how do? He resonates very loudly.

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You know, my daughter graduated from
an M and my son in law

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graduated from ME and M. So
whoo whoo. They're good people. Yeah,

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yeah, we weren't sure about that
day. My daughter was going to

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good at ten and then out of
the blue she got accepted at A and

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M. So I think she came
to her senses. You know, she

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met her husband there. He was
in the core and now he's a major

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in the Air Force, and they
really had a good time, you know,

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A and M. For people who
aren't for me with A and M,

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they really are a type bunch,
those aggies. Yeah, it's kind

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of funny. A lot of people
don't know this sort of backstory on me

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because I live in San Francisco and
I go flight in New York all the

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time for work, and most people
in New York and San Francisco don't really

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know about Texas A and M.
But Texas A and M is a kind

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of, I guess, an old
fashioned Texas sort of university, just very

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one hundred percent Texans style. Trying
to figure out how I'm trying to think

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through how to award this for those
West Coast, these closed folks. But

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yeah, it's very Texas. It's
very Texas. And their hatred for the

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University of Texas is amazing, you
know. But getting back to how tight

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a knit group A and M is. When my daughter was a senior in

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high school, you know, she
got accepted to an M and we decided

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to go to Panama for a couple
of weeks. And so we went to

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Panama where in the airport in Panama
and my daughter has her A and M

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sweatshirt on, and this old guy
at the time, he seemed old where

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I was my age, I don't
know what comes over and it's like,

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hey, gig him, I'm an
A and M graduate from nineteen whatever and

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starts talking to my daughter and said, hey, you know, here's my

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gibber and car and said, you
know, if you're an A and M,

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you're never hit in trouble. Give
me a call, be glad to

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help another aggie. And it was
just we were like, Wow, these

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aggies really take care of each other. Oh yeah, I mean Texas A

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and M. Like when the the
amounts of like cohesion between the different students

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and like the football team is enormous. So for example, like the entire

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crowd the entire university, so all
the legacy folks and the new one and

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all the new students, they all
memorize the chance. So you've got one

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hundred thousand aggies all at the same
thing during football games, which makes Kyle

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Field one of the most intimidating stadiums
to play at because you've got one hundred

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thousand people coordinated. But yeah,
more so than that, I think it's

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you know, I like the idea
of having traditions. It makes the college

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experience a little bit more fun.
Texans aren't like the coasts. You know,

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we don't have a four hundred year
old university, right We Texans kind

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of have to make their own culture, and I think A and M is

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one of the richest cultures for university
life in Texas. I always have to

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laugh at Aggie's when I'm at an
Aggie football game and the game's over and

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if they're not playing Texas, they're
singing a song about Texas University of Texas

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about how they hate them. And
I wonder if someone from another city plays

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or goes to the game for the
first time because they're visiting team, do

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they go, what in the hell's
going on? They didn't play Texas today?

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Well it's one. I mean,
yeah, it's one of the oldest

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rivalries in college football. But you
know, I think with Aggie's there's just

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a huge passion when it comes to
the game, So I definitely agree.

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We come across pretty quirky, and
it's you know, it's been a while

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since I flung out with a lot
of Aggies. I still have a bunch

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of friends who were aggies. I've
got a couple buddies who moved out to

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San Francisco. You know, but
out here on the West Coast it's not

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as intense or or kind of you
know, popular as it is of course

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in Texas. Well, you're from
McKinney, so that's in North Texas.

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So we hear, what made you
move to San Francisco. Yeah, close

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up by Planos so North Dauts.
Yeah, okay, yeah, it's so.

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I grew up in Plano. I
moved out to San Francisco and January

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twenty thirteen, and that was because
a small investment from my work worked for

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relocated me out here because they wanted
me to open up a West Coast portfolio.

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So it kind of coincidence of a
lucky, random roll of the dice

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with a combination of me really feeling
strongly about tech and bitcoin. That's when

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you know. In March twenty thirteen, I decided to build my first product,

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called zero Block. I didn't know
what the hell I was doing,

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but it became obsessed with how great
people build mobile products, how do they

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grow those? Learned everything I needed
to on the Internet and from like really

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sharp people in the space. You
know, Twitter is a phenomenal resource,

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and used that and made zero block
the most popular crypto app in twenty thirteen,

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which was a pretty cool experience,
and we got acquire a bit blockchain

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dot com. So I kind of
stumbled and bumbled my way into tech.

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So that was your first business that
you built and sold? That's right,

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first business I ever built and sold, and first crypto business. So how

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do you find out about crypto?
What got you into bitcoin? Because it

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mean if you sold a company in
two thirteen, then you had to know

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enough by that time to know bitcoin
or crypto or whatever was the real deal

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or you felt it was, so
you had to be in in a little

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while at that time. So tell
us here I guess discovery story or also

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I've been doing some digging with my
emails as well to help me color in

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this past because it is a very
very long time ago. I registered my

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first account at Malcox in December twenty
eleven, and then in twenty twelve.

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So twenty eleven, my buddy paid
me back for a beer with a Casacious

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coin. It's one of those physical
coins, and that kind of like kickstarted

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my thought process into like okay,
well, I was already libertarian, and

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I felt like non state money was
you know, like gold. You know,

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it was a pretty important thing for
me. I believed that, you

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know, we needed a sound of
money to bring this. I was in

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college during a two thousand financial crisis, studying finance and realize that this whole

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system was fundamentally broken, and I
felt like a return to sound money it

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was the way that we go forward. And so for me, it pretty

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early, ear like pretty clearly represented
gold two point zero. You know.

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So I got that casatious coin,
I started to dig into it and I'm

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like, oh, a disinflationary monetary
policy. This is incredible. This is

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the holy grail. Yeah. The
problem, the problem that we have is

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there's no proper inflation rate. It's
impossible to choose what an appropriate rate of

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inflation would be, and it would
always be subject to political whims. So

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to have a hardcap, he removed
that human element from the decision making process

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with a monetary policy, which I
thought was brilliant and I considered like the

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largest breakthrough a bitcoin. Those canstatious
coins kind of a collectible now, aren't

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they? I mean, are they
still around? Yeah? They are collectible.

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I mean they're somewhat risky because you
trust that the private key generation ceremony.

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They didn't copy those keys. But
to the best of my knowledge,

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I don't think anyone's had a Casatious
key where they found like the original creator

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of Casatious, you copy that private
key and stole those funds from them.

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You still require some trust. But
yeah, there are the quintessential gold coins

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that you see on all those those
articles where there if it's about bitcoin,

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you're going to see that gold chiny
coin. And I guess on the back

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from the I think someone gave me
one that didn't have any money on it.

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It was like maybe it was a
mad later, but it looks like

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on the back it had a hologram
that you peel it off. That's right

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under there was the QR code or
whatever. I assumed that didn't peel it

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off to get your bitcoin line off
of it. Yeah, that's right,

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you'd have your private key under that
would be underneath the peeled off holographic.

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The holographic element represented like you know, still sealed in a way. Right,

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I may need to look there may
be some big Oh no one I

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am I've never taken it off of
the check. I may want to want

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to check the maybe set Monday there
you could check. I mean, I

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wonder, I forget if there's an
external number on the coin where you can

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go check the balance. Oh,
I forget. You might want to check

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that, but they'll have to pull
it up and see what I can figure

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out from looking at that. Now, you said you started. That was

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your first business. Did you'd have
another business? You said you started and

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sold. Yeah, so that was
the first business I started and sold.

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So that was a blockchain dot com
in December twenty thirteen, which, by

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the way, that was the second
ever bitcoin company acquisition, which one was

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Eric forhes Is Satoshian Dice. And
after that work to blockchain you know where,

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could have start up cop chain Chip, which a micropayments over social media

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using bitcoin, went to Uber,
left Uber, went back to crypto.

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Sorry, I should clear if I
went back to bitcoin. To be clear,

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I went back to bitcoin. Co
founded a company called Interchange which did

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post trade reconciliation for institutional traders,
and then we were bought by Cracking in

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July twenty nineteen. So that that's
kind of the round trip journey of Dan's

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experience in bitcoin. Is that how
you got to cracking where you're at now,

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that's right. Yeah. So after
we were acquired, I was put

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on the business development team, which
we felt like it was really strong fit

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for my background and my connections.
Okay, yeah, so now I got

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to scoop on Dan. Yep,
it's Dan's heel dr. We met at

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I think we met for the first
time at Tones event this February. Yeah.

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I was confiscatable. Yeah, I
was glad that we could both make

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that. I mean, that was
my last conference I've been to this year,

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and it's always fun hanging out with
a good bitcoiners, and that was

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that was a great time. You
know. I think Tone really leckd up

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there because he got that in like
at the last minute. I mean,

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if it had been two weeks later, he might not have got that in.

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So I mean, but that was
like perfect timing. But that may

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have been the last conference of any
besides a meetup of any size at all

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for this whole year. Yeah,
yeah, that very well could be.

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I mean, I just don't see
a scenario where people are going to large

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in person you meetings like conferences or
concerts. I think those are basically off

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the table for twenty twenty and maybe
maybe twenty twenty one. We see people

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coming in, but you know,
I think you'd have to see like a

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really huge decline in like the number
of infected cases. I mean, certainly,

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if like only one person in my
city is infected, Okay, maybe

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I'll risk it to go to like
a conference, right. I think that's

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a pretty low risk. But you
know, it's kind of a subjective.

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Even if these limits of our movement
are removed by the government, individuals still

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make their own decisions, and I
don't find it likely that a lot of

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people are itching to go to a
large, large social event. Well,

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you know, speaking of that,
since we're on the subject, bit block

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Boom is the conference I put on, and I guess I'm gonna use this

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second from my segue and then we'll
discuss it. If you're not for me

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with bit block Boom out there,
it's a conference I hold. This will

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be our third year in Dallas,
Texas, scheduled for the end of August.

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You can check it out. It's
still we've got it back on because

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we're feeling good about it here in
Texas. You can go to bitblock Boom

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dot com they'll look at information and
see who's speaking. And we do have

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a checkout discount. You can use
it checkout for thirty percent off. Use

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the code word Cousins at checkout and
you'll receive thirty percent off. But that's

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the conference now. I want to
get that out of the way. But

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we were really kicking ass on selling
tickets from bit block Boom and it died

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and maybe middle of March, you
know, tickets just died. But now

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all of a sudden they picked back
up when we're selling tickets like every other

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day now. So we're gonna go
for it and work on doing it properly.

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But it's not a huge conference.
It would be three hundred people max,

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which is a nice size conference,
but it's not like I guess once

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you get over one hundred people,
don't matter what it is, whether it's

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three hundred thousand, sure, you
know when you really get to it,

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it's going to be the same odds. But we're having a lot of people

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buy tickets now and a lot of
interest. Again, I think maybe it's

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because of the fact that the age. Maybe it's a combination of the fact

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that the age of our average in
Tindee and the type of people in bitcoin

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or people who don't want to be
told what to do and want to do

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whatever the hell they want. So
I think maybe it's a combination. Is

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why our ticket sales are doing so
well, and we could like a good

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bitcoiner, yeah, people tell them
what to do. Tomorrow, we should

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be signing our platinum sponsor for the
deal, who was had agreed to do

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it before the event, but I
didn't hold them to it because we had

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not made one hundred percent commitment and
I talked to him another day and they

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said they're still behind ithn't want to
go with it. So I think the

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fact that Texas, I'm just guessing, but the fact that Texas has been

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undone for a while, so many
cities now are unlocking, and it's like

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one hundred and ten here when this
is happening, and it's the end of

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August. I think most of the
country is going to be unlocked by the

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end of August. I'm kind of
concerned with the people coming from Europe as

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to whether they're going to get here. Like Stephen Lava, he's one of

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the speakers in Australia and he's still
planning all coming he's just saying he's hoping

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he can get here. I don't
know. I guess I think bit block

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Boom seems to have a lot of
people wanting to come, and I think

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as Matt O'Dell made it tweet some
time ago, and I'm not like taking

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any credit for this, so don't
get me wrong, but he tweeted having

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a conference in the end of August
in Dallas, Texas maybe the most genius

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I did anyone had, because no
one's going to have had a bitcoin conference.

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It would be the second one,
maybe of the year town. Yeah.

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So I'm also starting to wonder,
and I'm not speaking about cracking,

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I'm just talking in general. I'm
wondering if I'm going to see a growth

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here and people wanting to sponsor bit
block Boom because they've had all these funds

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they had dedicated for Bitcoin two thousand
in San Francisco or consensus or all these

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things they were going to do,
and they go, we haven't done anything,

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you know, and now we got
all this capital sitting there, we

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had dedicated to marketing, and you
know, let's do it. So I'm

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kind of confused. Are wondering not
confused? Wondering if I'm going to get

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hit with that, which would be
great. Yeah. I think, you

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know, when we look at how
humans respond to incentives, how humans interact

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with the market, like it seems
natural that if you're the supply of one

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and demand increases unexpectedly, which I
think a lot of people aren't expecting demand

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to increase, but if demand increases, then there should be an over you

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know, essentially an oversubscription for the
limited amount of supply, which is your

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conference in August. I think that, you know, this might be an

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interesting segue until like Texas and bitcoiners, Well, I think you know,

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like your conference is, you know, your Texan and I think Texans are

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this kind of fierce independent culture is
very much across every city in Texas,

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and I think a lot of people
don't really understand Texans. And you know,

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when I first heard about bitcoin,
people forget that the University of Texas

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requested physical delivery of their gold from
the FED. Like what university does that

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outside of Texas? Right right?
And they're making I believe the state of

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Texas and making a vault, yeah, like their own version of Fort Knox

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to put the gold in. Yeah, Texas doesn't trust the federal government for

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that extent, which is incredible.
I love Texans because we don't trust,

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we verify, like that's kind of
born into Texas culture because we were our

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own independent country. I think it's
like for fifty or sixty years, you

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know. So that kind of fierce
independent resiliency is what I loved about Texas

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and I think very much shaped my
libertarian ideology and ultimately why I found bitcoin.

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And it's been interesting though, because
I haven't seen Texans in mass really

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you know, kind of pick up
bitcoin. I know there's a good contingent

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in Dallas in Austin, but you
know, it's not like a giant,

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giant hub. And yeah, you're
correct. If you were if you were

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to have asked me in twenty thirteen, where's bitcoin going to start? I

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would have been like, Oh,
Texas, these people get it. It's

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about sovereignty over your body with weapons, like with guns, sovereignty over your

250
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money with gold. It's the perfect
fit to be a bitcoin right. I

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think the only thing missing was the
technological component. It's still a little techy,

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a little kind of funky, and
I think Texans aren't and not like

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the San Francisco folks who we hear
about something new when you're like, oh,

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let's go go check that out.
Yeah. Now, Austin is a

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good hub for bitcoin when you're talking
about in Texas, and I would I

256
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would have to thank Austin is the
best. But I'm often surprised at how

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weak Dallas for worth is as far
as being a hub. I mean,

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you know, if you try to
get a bitcoin thing going, well,

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I have more people from New York
come to bit block Boom than I do

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from Dallas, you know, and
that's just crazy because they just got to

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drive down the street and they don't
have to stay in a hotel. Right.

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I may have more people from Europe
this year than I have from Dallas.

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And you know, he thinks the
issue with Texans and people from Dallas

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about bitcoin. No, I really
don't anything. There's no good groups.

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I'm not saying there's no good groups, there's no strong groups. Let me

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rephrase that. You know, you
if you use meet up trying to find

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stuff, you'll see events and there'll
be five people at a central market.

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You know, you don't see any
look at the names and just no one.

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You know, And I know people
in the area that are bitcoiners,

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but they don't seem to and I
see them more when I go. Like

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if if I would have gone to
San Francisco for a bitcoin twenty twenty,

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I would have seen people there from
Dallas who I go. The only time

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I see you is when I come
out here, you know, or something.

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I don't see you at any events
in Dallas. So I'm really confused.

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I know that people when they come
here from out of town. For

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instance, I can't remember who it
was that was talking to me some time

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ago. They said, all right, loved it. I got off a

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plane and I caught it uber and
I went straight to bitcoin and bullets.

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I was shooting a gun within an
hour, you know, because they can't

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do that where they're at, you
know, and so um. You know.

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One of the events that goes on
start last year, it's gonna happen

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this year is out of the gun
Range, you know, on Thursday.

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And people who are from out of
town, especially are from out of the

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country. They love it getting to
go see all kinds of guns, shoot

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all kinds of guns. And I
don't put that on. That's a an

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event put on by someone else.
There's a lot of events floating around block

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Boom that aren't mine. I'm actually
trying to hopefully Sunday. You know,

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bit block Boom will start on Monday
and end on Sunday, and like maybe

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Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday
are other people's events, oh night,

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you know, mega events, and
then you have like yeah, when then

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Friday comes in mind, or maybe
at the end of every day we'll have

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like a dinner somewhere that will be
put on by bit boom that people can

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go to something to keep it condemned. But I love having satellite events that

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people are putting on. Well,
the gun one that you brought up was

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interesting because a lot of people,
like Texans kind of understand this intimately,

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which is sovereignty over your body.
I find it really bizarre that some bitcoiners

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don't believe in, you know,
solid gun rights. I think that a

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lot of bitcoiners are like the West
Coast, East Coast, you know,

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the coastal folks who don't really you
know, embrace a sovereignty over their body,

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which I find prettyunnycause they embrace sovereignty
over their money, which money is

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just a representation of time and energy
that their body is spent to earn it.

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So like the only way to enforce
your property rights over that bitcoin is

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to have some adequate defense to defend
yourself. Yeah, in Texans are the

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only ones who seemed to embrace this. You know. I joke about,

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you know, Oncology day girls and
they'd have like pink little pink guns in

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their purses or a pink shotgun under
their bed. And people on the coasts

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think they think that's nuts, And
I'm like, well, why wouldn't you

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want to defend yourself? Like what's
wrong with defending yourself? It was like

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my wife or her sixty fifth birthday, I got her semi automatic weapon,

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you know, and we're not crazy
people running around. I mean, but

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you know, she couldn't handle I
have a three fifty seven and I have

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a twelve gage and she can't handle
either one of those. They're way too

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power for her. So I got
to semi automatic twenty two holds thirty shots

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and the cartridge thing, so she
can handle a twenty two, and now

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I'll do plenty of damage. I
mean, you know, maybe we could

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make a weak analogy to you know, if you if you buy bitcoin,

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but you hold it on a centralized
exchange, it's like a twenty two,

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but maybe you're not ready to handle
the shotgun, the self the self sovereignty

319
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to protect your own private key.
But maybe once you get used to the

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twenty two, you can upgrade to
the shotgun a little bit later down the

321
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road. Yeah, yeah, well
she can shoot the shotgun, just hurts

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her shoulder real bad. So do
the shotguns in the area of last resort.

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You know that she can retreat to, you know, so if she

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00:20:34,519 --> 00:20:37,559
needs a retreat to there. I've
been taken out spoken like a true bitcoin

325
00:20:37,599 --> 00:20:41,640
you're building out his citadel plane.
Yeah, yeah, so yeah, it's

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00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:45,400
funny we had these guns. It's
funny. It's really odd we have Yeah,

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00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,799
because I've had the shotgun and the
pistol forever and they've been in the

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closet and my wife is the one
it's like, why do you have those

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guns in the closet. We need
to get those out here, and like

330
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really, and yeah, we need
to get those out here. You shouldn't

331
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have those in the closet, I'm
like. And that started though, and

332
00:21:03,599 --> 00:21:10,400
with the coronavirus, she started getting
more concerned about security with people being out

333
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:15,319
of work. I think her concept
was that things might get bad with society,

334
00:21:15,519 --> 00:21:17,359
you know, and people are out
of work, they need money.

335
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You're gonna feed your kids, You're
not going to at you get starved.

336
00:21:18,599 --> 00:21:22,440
I mean, you know so yeah
right, I mean if they're supply chain

337
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,559
is shoes with food, then naturally
humans are going to act in their own

338
00:21:25,559 --> 00:21:27,359
self interest, which I can't blame
them to do, but they just wouldn't

339
00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:30,960
do it with me. Yeah,
that's how we look at it. We're

340
00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:36,240
going we're gonna have ourselves protected.
So that's the thing is. My wife

341
00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:38,519
also asked, you know, you
always hear people talking about the Citadels,

342
00:21:38,519 --> 00:21:41,839
which you just mentioned, and how
the end of the world's gonna come and

343
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there's gonna be bitcoiners and no bitcoiners. And my wife asked me the other

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night where we walk every night about
two miles as she goes, I don't

345
00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:52,440
understand this. You're saying, all
these people are going to be wanting our

346
00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:56,640
bitcoin someday. And you meet these
people who are rich and been in bitcoin

347
00:21:56,839 --> 00:22:03,000
since two thousand and ten and eleven. How come they're out without security guards?

348
00:22:03,319 --> 00:22:06,839
How come they're just walking around not
worried about people like taking them down.

349
00:22:07,319 --> 00:22:08,559
You know, they've got they should
have a lot of bitcoin if they've

350
00:22:08,599 --> 00:22:11,079
been in it since then. And
I said, well, I think people

351
00:22:11,079 --> 00:22:14,680
still have money Kemp. Yeah.
I think that's a difference from you know,

352
00:22:14,759 --> 00:22:18,640
people saying that bitcoin becomes world currency, there'll be bitcoiners and non bitcoiners.

353
00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:22,599
Right now, they're bitcoiners and non
bitcoiners, but the non bitcoiners still

354
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:26,119
have currency, right. I think
the Citadel because that the Citadel story comes

355
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:30,000
from the Citadel reference comes from a
story on Reddit, the Time Traveler.

356
00:22:30,079 --> 00:22:33,200
The time Traveler. Yeah, this
guy wrote this fiction, this fan fiction

357
00:22:33,279 --> 00:22:37,839
story about coming back from the future
and Bitcoin succeeds, but it's so scarce

358
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:41,920
that it essentially like changes the whole
economy. And there's these they have and

359
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:45,799
have knots. I think that's kind
of like a you know, it plays

360
00:22:45,839 --> 00:22:48,880
into like this these sort of like
common movie themes if they have and have

361
00:22:49,039 --> 00:22:52,240
knots, for the one with Matt
Damon and the sci fi movie where all

362
00:22:52,279 --> 00:22:56,000
the wealthy people live in this spaceship
and all the port on Earth but he's

363
00:22:56,039 --> 00:22:59,799
trying to get up there. Elicium
I think is the name of the movie,

364
00:23:00,079 --> 00:23:02,319
right, you know, I think
it kind of plays into that there's

365
00:23:02,319 --> 00:23:06,839
this sort of like the wealthy verses
that have nuts and also Lolito whatever the

366
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,440
one about the robot and girl.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. There's

367
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:12,480
cities up there floating above them,
and all the peons live on the ground

368
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,559
where they dump their trash. Yeah, oh yeah, they literally dump their

369
00:23:15,559 --> 00:23:19,079
trash. I forget about that.
Yeah, you know, I think it's

370
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,079
it's sort of a I think it's
this fear, you know, of like

371
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:26,440
the mass populations. But right now
we see I mean I walk around San

372
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,359
Francisco and I've hung out with people
that are worth a hundred million to a

373
00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:33,039
billion, and we walk on the
streets openly. You know. So in

374
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San Francisco is not a safe city, let's put it that way, Like

375
00:23:34,839 --> 00:23:37,400
it's not a safe city. But
even they feel safe enough to walk around

376
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:41,920
like that without like two bodyguards.
There's only a few people I know in

377
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,440
the space that have in the crypto
space that have bodyguards. I'm not going

378
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:48,519
to name them, but I understand
where they're coming from. But you know,

379
00:23:48,559 --> 00:23:51,640
it does give me hope that if
really wealthy people in San Francisco that

380
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:55,200
are in tech can walk around and
bitcoiners in the future could walk around freely

381
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:57,720
as well. You know, I
think the dystopian scenario that that that sort

382
00:23:57,759 --> 00:24:03,920
of represents would be an extreme breakdown
of property rights and social norms. Yeah,

383
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:06,160
well it gets to that point we
are going to need the guns.

384
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:11,759
Yeah. I was watching you on
Max Kaiser and actually I was watching it

385
00:24:11,799 --> 00:24:15,039
said wow, why haven't I called
him yet and to set up an interview

386
00:24:15,039 --> 00:24:18,839
with him? And I think I
emailed you right there while I was on

387
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:22,119
the couch watching. So I saw
you, but you went into something I

388
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:26,440
found very interesting that I want to
cover. You talked about you were comparing

389
00:24:26,559 --> 00:24:30,920
bitcoin to a living organism and would
you mind going over that because I found

390
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,599
that pretty interesting. Yeah. So
I wrote a series called Planting Bitcoin that

391
00:24:33,799 --> 00:24:37,759
Satoshi's brilliance wasn't just in the species
of money that he chose to plant,

392
00:24:37,839 --> 00:24:41,039
but the season, the soil,
and the gardening techniques. And when we

393
00:24:41,079 --> 00:24:48,160
look at a money, money has
certain genetic characteristics or genetic code all puns

394
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:52,359
intended for Bitcoin, a certain genetic
code that manifests itself VIAT traits, and

395
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:56,960
these traits are what an organism has
that enables it to survive. And so

396
00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:00,119
when we look at different moneies,
you have different traits of portable fungibility,

397
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:06,519
divisibility, all these sort of traits
that make it a good species of money.

398
00:25:06,559 --> 00:25:10,319
And so when we look at historical
species of money, like primitive forms

399
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:14,400
before gold, like shells and beads, and then we had gold, and

400
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:18,880
now we have fiat, and then
we have bitcoin. Through each evolution of

401
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:23,200
money, so as money evolved and
as certain traits of money became more favorable

402
00:25:23,319 --> 00:25:29,640
or more advantageous as a species.
Essentially, shells and beads when extinct as

403
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:33,160
a money when gold came around because
gold had superior traits, and then same

404
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:38,960
with with bitcoin replacing gold. Because
bitcoin is digital, it's much more verifiable

405
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:45,480
and divisible and portable, and also
has a controlled supply that everyone knows versus

406
00:25:45,759 --> 00:25:48,279
one where we don't know how much
gold there is, and we do know

407
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:52,440
that there's enough gold on asteroids to
basically make gold worthless. So bitcoin is

408
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:57,920
a species of money has superior,
superior genetics which give it better superior traits

409
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:03,920
and basically makes at the next evolution
of money. Bitcoin is the final evolution

410
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,359
of money. And so when people
go, oh, I think I should

411
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:11,079
hold both gold and bitcoin, I
go why bitcoin is the far superior species.

412
00:26:11,079 --> 00:26:14,799
It's kind of like, you know, looking at this new apex predator,

413
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,000
like looking at a you know,
a dinosaur and being like that versus

414
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:22,720
some new apex predator who's been honed
over the huge amount of time to be

415
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,799
that new species, that new apex
predator. You wouldn't place your bet on

416
00:26:26,839 --> 00:26:29,599
the old one. You place your
bet on the new one. And so

417
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,559
you know, that's where I think
a lot of people feel that I'm being

418
00:26:32,599 --> 00:26:36,319
over the harsh when I kind of
I'm critical of gold. Now, Gold

419
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:38,599
I think is still a good investment
for in a short and medium term duration.

420
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:45,240
But as younger age cohorse like millennials
increasingly become older, what are they

421
00:26:45,319 --> 00:26:47,759
going to buy into? They're going
to buy into the bitcoin bitcoin to Then

422
00:26:47,799 --> 00:26:49,559
makes sense that we were the first
age group. I'm in my thirties,

423
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,920
we were the first age group to
bridge the analog to digital. I grew

424
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,880
up with cassette tapes and now I
stream my songs with Spotify, and so

425
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,279
we were the first ones to like
really crock poin in mass You know,

426
00:27:00,319 --> 00:27:04,160
I think there's certainly other age groups
who get it. And for Gold,

427
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,160
I mean, I don't know any
of my friends who are in gold,

428
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,400
like a lot of them on bitcoin, right, I kind of see bitcoin

429
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:14,119
is the apex predator of money,
if you will. But you know,

430
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:18,039
speaking on that same scenario or not
scenario, but what you just said,

431
00:27:18,039 --> 00:27:22,720
cassette tapes, you know, cassette
tapes. I'm going to use this,

432
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:27,200
this as a weird example I'm making. But people don't accept new technology quickly

433
00:27:27,319 --> 00:27:30,640
all the time. When I was
in high school, I had a cassette

434
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:36,240
tape player. All my friends had
eight tracks, and they sucked, and

435
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,359
I couldn't find that. They didn't
even have your car a cassette player at

436
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:42,799
the time. So I had an
old, old car. I paid three

437
00:27:42,839 --> 00:27:47,279
hundred and fifty dollars for it,
and I took my portable cassette deck and

438
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,920
took the earphone plug and wired it
into my speakers of the car so I

439
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,960
could listen to my tapes. And
all my friends would go, this is

440
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,160
stupid. Why don't you get an
eight track? I said, this is

441
00:27:56,200 --> 00:28:00,000
way better. I can record my
own tapes off the radio. If they

442
00:28:00,039 --> 00:28:04,359
pop, I can open up to
a box, tape it back together and

443
00:28:04,519 --> 00:28:07,799
still listen to it, and I
can forward fast it, I can rewind

444
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,960
it, and no one would go, I don't know anyone in high school

445
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,799
that had a cassette deck except me. But then over time, you know,

446
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,799
they started getting more popular. They
came out in a car. I

447
00:28:18,839 --> 00:28:22,880
remember when my dad got a car
with a cassette deck in it, and

448
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,279
I was like, oh my gosh, and he was taking my cassette deck.

449
00:28:25,319 --> 00:28:27,039
So I remember he had led Zeppelin
and he was putting it in there

450
00:28:27,079 --> 00:28:30,799
because all I had was hard rock
and my dad was an old country Western

451
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,599
guy, but he wanted to use
his cassette deck, so he was sitting

452
00:28:33,599 --> 00:28:34,759
in the car listening to it.
I remember him going, oh, my

453
00:28:34,799 --> 00:28:37,799
gosh, that's crazy when it goes
because then a whole lot of love.

454
00:28:37,839 --> 00:28:40,920
It goes from one side to the
other, one side to the other.

455
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:42,720
It's real strong stereo. And he's
like, well, that's amazing. You

456
00:28:42,759 --> 00:28:45,359
know where we never had that with
the eight track didn't seem to have that

457
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,119
same effect on him. So,
but it took a long time for that

458
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:52,839
technology to get accepted. Just so
like now going back to when we were

459
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,720
talking about just like it's taking a
long time for bitcoin to get accepted,

460
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:57,839
and those were young people, so
it's not necessarily just old people which I

461
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,759
hear all the time. To have
a time moving into new technology. It's

462
00:29:00,799 --> 00:29:03,440
all people totally. I think that's
a great example. I mean, just

463
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,000
because it's new technology doesn't mean everyone's
going to adopt it overnight. Takes a

464
00:29:07,039 --> 00:29:10,559
long time, and that's where you
know, I also agree with you.

465
00:29:10,599 --> 00:29:14,759
It's not necessarily just young or old, but the young typically embraced new tech

466
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,480
and greater size, you know,
like everyone got on Facebook at the same

467
00:29:18,519 --> 00:29:22,319
age, and so that's where you
know it's going to take. I think

468
00:29:22,319 --> 00:29:25,319
a lot of bitcoiners don't get this, but this takes decades. I've been

469
00:29:25,359 --> 00:29:29,160
in now for I would say eight
years is the more appropriate number of years

470
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:30,759
I've been in it, And so
like eight years is a long time.

471
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,680
I've just been at three years.
I got in it mid twenty seventeen,

472
00:29:34,839 --> 00:29:40,839
before the big bull run happened.
I thinkfully there's like different era. It's

473
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:42,519
I think. I think when we
look back on bitcoin, we're looking back

474
00:29:42,559 --> 00:29:45,880
and we'll count the number of notches
based on a number of havings we've been

475
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,599
through. Oh, you've been through
this was your third having Yeah, I

476
00:29:49,599 --> 00:29:53,359
didn't really remember the twenty twelve one
though. I wasn't. I was just

477
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,839
playing around with it. I wasn't
very serious about it. Thirteen I became

478
00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,079
much more serious once I got plugged
into the community, up really really,

479
00:30:00,079 --> 00:30:04,640
really deeply on things, built my
first product. So sixteen I was paying

480
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:10,160
attention. Was this twenty sixteen having
wasn't that big though, compared to twenty

481
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:11,720
twenty. I mean, man,
there was twenty sixteen. I went down

482
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:15,960
to a party at big Ghost offices
in the South Bay, and I think

483
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,680
that maybe there was like fifteen people
there. So he put it in that

484
00:30:18,759 --> 00:30:22,119
perspective. This was a much bigger
event. But I was kind of let

485
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:26,359
down with the happening, you know. I was really expecting there to be

486
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,640
even more I think, you know, than there was. Yeah, I

487
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,599
mean that cracking. We were excited
to participate, and we really wanted to

488
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,559
put on no cracking as an old
bitcoin company. In fact, let's see,

489
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:38,559
Yeah, I think this is an
old cracking T shirt. It says

490
00:30:38,759 --> 00:30:41,920
big coin Exchange, right, this
is an old one. This is it.

491
00:30:42,039 --> 00:30:47,680
I think this is like a retro
shirt, you know, and cracking

492
00:30:47,799 --> 00:30:49,519
very much. I think appeals to
a wide variety of audiences, not just

493
00:30:49,599 --> 00:30:53,400
bigcoiners. So I'm speaking kind of
on my own behalf here, but you

494
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,279
know, with Cracking, we put
our heads together and we were like,

495
00:30:56,319 --> 00:31:00,000
well, we want to make sure
that we, you know, show bitcoiners

496
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,400
that we care. Like it's kind
of funny how these big exchanges don't show

497
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:07,759
their biggest customer segment that they care. And so we put our heads together

498
00:31:07,759 --> 00:31:11,240
and we're like, I think a
VR that would be pretty cool. Like

499
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:12,880
we're trying to come up with something
different, Yeah, that would be cool.

500
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:15,640
You know. We we weren't sure, like you know, a lot

501
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,759
of people don't have VR headsets,
but we were streaming it, so we

502
00:31:18,759 --> 00:31:22,640
we were We loved the response that
we got so on having we had the

503
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:26,799
Crack and VR event, which was
super fun and I got to think Pete

504
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,000
Rizzo who really kind of architected that, and Pierre Rochard did a lot of

505
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,839
hard work there too, and so
that was funny. I think it was

506
00:31:33,079 --> 00:31:37,079
you know, it was funny to
see like companies like coin based though not

507
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:38,920
really do anything for the having you
know, it's it's kind of funny.

508
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:44,000
We felt like we had to do
something for the having to show show bitcoiners

509
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,880
that we cared. Yeah, I
think this was my first having so I

510
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:52,000
think next time that met black Moon
will do something itself. But being the

511
00:31:52,039 --> 00:31:55,440
first time, I just wanted to
participate. Yeah, I'm one of those

512
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:59,079
people. I feel like I'm not
very good at inventing the wheel, but

513
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,000
I can put good caps on the
wheel once I see it, you know,

514
00:32:01,039 --> 00:32:04,519
I can put better hubcaps on it. Does that make any sense?

515
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,039
But I can invent a wheel for
hell. But once I see it wheel

516
00:32:07,079 --> 00:32:10,039
and oh hell, that would look
great with these different hubcaps and change it

517
00:32:10,119 --> 00:32:15,200
up. I don't think any idea
just like pops into someone's head without any

518
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,400
inspiration from the outside. While we
might look at relativity, you know,

519
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:22,079
with Einstein coming up with that,
or Isaac Newton, they certainly were inspired

520
00:32:22,119 --> 00:32:24,160
by other events and other people in
their life. You know, there's no

521
00:32:24,319 --> 00:32:28,680
one exists in a vacuum. And
so I think a lot of people feel

522
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,119
like they're not contributing that much when
they just change something and then make it

523
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:35,359
shinier or change their color of the
hubcaps. But actually, one of the

524
00:32:35,359 --> 00:32:38,400
most successful companies in the world,
Apple, literally does that. Apple doesn't

525
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:45,319
typically build the newest iteration of something, They build the most usable newest iteration.

526
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:47,319
You know, where they're not going
to go pioneer a new camera type,

527
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:51,599
or they might, but typically what
they do is that the most stable

528
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,200
camera type that people can use,
and that's really easy to use, and

529
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:58,960
then they polish that and make it
easy and simple. Well, always say

530
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,039
Apple, then invent it. Yeah, the phone was emitted a long time

531
00:33:01,079 --> 00:33:04,400
ago, but they sure made a
lot of money off phones. Yeah,

532
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,839
the BlackBerry invented the smartphone. Apples
made it, made it usable and made

533
00:33:07,839 --> 00:33:14,319
it a trio. I think smartphone
just like a Palm pilot Aero one.

534
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:16,480
Yeah, yeah, it was like
a Palm pilot. It was. It

535
00:33:16,519 --> 00:33:20,240
was a little bit better than a
Palm pilot, you know, but yeah,

536
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,480
it had a physical keyboard on it, and when people would see it,

537
00:33:22,519 --> 00:33:25,200
they go, oh my gosh,
it was huge. I mean I

538
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:29,920
remember when Blackberries were super hot.
I mean, if people forget, I

539
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:31,799
mean, if I feel old saying
this, I forget when the iPhone came

540
00:33:31,799 --> 00:33:37,160
out. But the iPhone three G
was my first iPhone, and the three

541
00:33:37,279 --> 00:33:39,400
G, you know, finally got
the form factor down and that was super

542
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:43,839
popular and I got that in college. But I think my first phone college

543
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:45,599
is a flip phone, you know, like you know, just had like

544
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:49,240
text messaging capabilities. You could kind
of browse the web, but it was

545
00:33:49,279 --> 00:33:53,000
really clunky. Right. I went
from a Trio to the first iPhone that

546
00:33:53,039 --> 00:34:00,480
came out. Actually, I had
every iPhone until they quit doing the the

547
00:34:00,519 --> 00:34:02,720
credit deal where you could, uh, oh yeah, use your time.

548
00:34:02,799 --> 00:34:06,839
You know, you've got so many
because I would sell my old one and

549
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,679
would it would be cheaper add four
phones on my plan. So every year

550
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:13,960
I could sell one made ten dollars
more than it costs them buy a new

551
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:15,639
one, you know, because it
was included in your phone bill type thing.

552
00:34:16,039 --> 00:34:19,800
Right. It was like semi subsidized
by AT and T or something right,

553
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,719
right, right, So I said, And my wife usually bitches when

554
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:24,719
I spend money, but she was
like, well that's cool. We made

555
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:28,280
ten bucks and you got the new
phone you wanted, you know, So

556
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:30,119
with four phones, I could do
it every year. And none of the

557
00:34:30,159 --> 00:34:32,559
kids were worried about a phone.
They just like having a phone that was

558
00:34:32,559 --> 00:34:36,320
paid for. I think people forget
about, you know, when you spend

559
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:38,880
money. Is like and this we
can tie this into hoddling, which is

560
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:44,639
that you know, I'm obviously huge
into hottling. I think Hottling teaches you

561
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,599
more things than just holding bitcoin and
believing in bitcoin. It teaches you how

562
00:34:47,639 --> 00:34:51,159
to be a good investor, how
to be convicted in a trade, how

563
00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:54,119
to be convicted with something in life, how to go about formulating an investment

564
00:34:54,159 --> 00:34:58,440
thesis and then sticking with it.
But also, people forget like you don't

565
00:34:58,559 --> 00:35:01,360
hauddle for forever. I mean,
technically you can, and you could.

566
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:05,159
For example, if you huddle bitcoin
long enough, you could just lend your

567
00:35:05,199 --> 00:35:07,039
bitcoin out and earn interest on it. So technically you never have to sell

568
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:10,480
to live a lifestyle. But we
are humans, after all. We require

569
00:35:10,599 --> 00:35:15,039
food and shelter, and you know, people forget that we don't live forever.

570
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,360
So you know, we'll see.
I was. I was a matter

571
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:22,639
of fact, I was on a
conference party whatever you want to call it

572
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:24,800
bitcoin thing. They were about twenty
five people on it, and someone was

573
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,800
talking about when they're going to sell, and I said, wait, a

574
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,119
say, you got to realize that
no one should sell until it hits a

575
00:35:30,159 --> 00:35:32,800
million or something. And I was
like, you got to realize. I

576
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:36,559
mean, I'm sixty five. I'm
not gonna wait for a million. I

577
00:35:36,639 --> 00:35:39,079
got twenty years left, you know
what. I mean, it's a difference

578
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:44,519
reality for me versus someone else,
unless I just want to live like I

579
00:35:44,559 --> 00:35:47,239
live now forever and then my kids
are like well off. I don't have

580
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,599
a problem with it being well off, but I don't live for my kids

581
00:35:50,639 --> 00:35:52,239
to be well off. Sure you're
you know you want to have a nice

582
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,519
life. Yeah, yeah, so
I'd like my last twenty years to be

583
00:35:55,559 --> 00:36:00,480
able to just I enjoy myself now. But blie me bitcoins starts hitting one

584
00:36:00,519 --> 00:36:02,400
hundred thousand dollars, I'll start selling
some, I promise you. I got

585
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,840
twenty years left, which is totally
fine. I feel like a lot of

586
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:07,800
bigcoinners kind of guilt other ones into
doing that. Look, my name's Dan

587
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:13,199
Held, right, I've been hobbling
for eight years. But certainly, like

588
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:15,519
if you have a partner, a
wife or a husband, and they're like,

589
00:36:15,559 --> 00:36:19,039
you know, it's time for us
to get a home. I really

590
00:36:19,079 --> 00:36:22,360
want to start a family. That's
what's really important in life. You know,

591
00:36:22,599 --> 00:36:25,000
I'm a single guy. I've got
a girlfriend who's luckily into bitcoin as

592
00:36:25,079 --> 00:36:29,000
much as I am, which is
prettil and that was before I met her.

593
00:36:29,159 --> 00:36:31,039
Well that's really cool. Yeah,
yeah, so that's that's I'm pretty

594
00:36:31,039 --> 00:36:36,159
fortunate to a founder, you know, so she understands the trade. But

595
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,639
I understand that a lot of people's
partners really don't understand it, and they

596
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:42,599
have certain life events like a car, house that they need. You know,

597
00:36:42,679 --> 00:36:45,280
you have to be realistic. Like
I can hoddle really really hard,

598
00:36:45,639 --> 00:36:47,920
but I'm also a single you know, technically a single male, and if

599
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:52,159
I have kids or a mortgage,
so it's a little bit easier for me.

600
00:36:52,199 --> 00:36:54,480
So I totally understand people people's plates
when they can, but you should

601
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:58,559
hold on to some for as long
as you can, you know, like

602
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,280
you got to hold on too.
I would never sell more than more than

603
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:04,960
half my coins. I could just
never. I could personally could never do

604
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:07,880
that. I would just do like
the lending or maybe sell super out of

605
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:12,639
the money covered calls or something.
Of course, these strategies come with risk,

606
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,639
but you know, if you want
to hoddle forever, you have to

607
00:37:15,639 --> 00:37:20,880
eventually generate a cash You could do
joint markets. You could you could actually

608
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,360
be a liquidity provider for coin joins. That's a safer way to do it.

609
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:25,440
But yeah, I think about that
a lot though, which is like,

610
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:29,719
what if you could hoddle for forever. How do you generate an income

611
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,039
off or your bitcoin? And that's
where I started to experiment with different lending

612
00:37:32,119 --> 00:37:36,320
products and I won't talk about specific
ones on the show. And I think

613
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:38,039
a lot of people will feel very
strongly against, you know, lending and

614
00:37:38,119 --> 00:37:43,960
borrowing products or covered calls or something. But nothing risks, nothing gained.

615
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,559
You're free to hoddle your coins in
the safest and very responsible manner, which

616
00:37:47,599 --> 00:37:51,079
is to self custom to year coins
and you don't have to trust anyone else.

617
00:37:51,119 --> 00:37:53,199
And I think that's what most people
should do. But if you want

618
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:57,840
to feel a little bit more risky, or maybe you've hoddled for fifteen years,

619
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:00,119
right, it's so important to what
you got into it. I mean,

620
00:38:00,159 --> 00:38:04,199
everybody's perspective is different. It's all
according to your age, where you're

621
00:38:04,199 --> 00:38:07,039
at in life, what your bills
are, how much you've got into it.

622
00:38:07,119 --> 00:38:09,760
If you bought bitcoin at a dollar
and you're sitting on a lot of

623
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:15,159
it, you're perfectly content getting ten
twenty thousand dollars because you probably have enough

624
00:38:15,199 --> 00:38:16,559
of it that it's not going to
wreck you and you're still going to do

625
00:38:16,639 --> 00:38:21,000
fine if it reaches one hundred thousand
or million dollars totally. Yeah, it's

626
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:23,719
totally case dependence. And I feel
like sometimes the Bitcoin is we're a little

627
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:28,199
bit harsh when it comes to the
advice of like Hodel forever. I think

628
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:30,480
what we're trying to do is we're
trying to rewind or undo all of the

629
00:38:30,559 --> 00:38:36,199
programming that central banks and Kyzie and
ideology is done, which is wiring people

630
00:38:36,199 --> 00:38:38,880
for consumption. And I think that's
why the rightcoin hoddling is bigger than just

631
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:44,199
bitcoin. Bitcoin hoddeling is about like
reducing your time preference, like extending your

632
00:38:44,199 --> 00:38:47,880
horizon for a very long period of
time and being committed and choosing an investment

633
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:51,960
thesis that takes a long time to
see. You know, you can't just

634
00:38:52,119 --> 00:38:54,400
bet on something in a play out
over a year and you feel like you

635
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:59,639
won to beat the market. You
inherently have to bet against the market because

636
00:38:59,639 --> 00:39:02,920
the mark it is under, as
you hypothesize them under the market is undervaluing

637
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:07,519
the asset that you just purchased.
And so that's where I think bitcoin is

638
00:39:07,559 --> 00:39:10,079
really great. When it forces you
to reevaluate your expenses, it forces you

639
00:39:10,159 --> 00:39:15,039
to reevaluate other investment options, and
I think it's a great entry into basic

640
00:39:15,079 --> 00:39:21,440
finance and basic personal personal financing and
basic investing. Yeah, I have to

641
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,519
agree with you completely. Hey,
I've got it. I asked on Twitter

642
00:39:24,639 --> 00:39:29,199
people that they adding questions for you, So we're this is getting kind of

643
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:30,320
long. I usually do it like
an hour and we're gonna go over that.

644
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:34,199
So I'm going to go to some
of these questions and some of them

645
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,559
may not make sense to me,
so maybe they'd do you Like at Charleston

646
00:39:37,679 --> 00:39:42,400
Jazz Club said when are you coming
to Charleston, South Carolina? Will you

647
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,199
go there a lot? Yeah,
I don't make it. If I'm one

648
00:39:45,199 --> 00:39:47,280
of the East Coast. I'm typically
going up to New York or Boston.

649
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,360
I don't make it down there very
often. But if I do, I'll

650
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:53,280
give you guys a shout out.
Okay, because yeah, it was time

651
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:59,159
to rally the troops, he says, and then at low Straw but we

652
00:39:59,199 --> 00:40:00,920
know they answered this a M or
ut. He's an A and M guy.

653
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:04,599
Yeah and M guy. We actually
have a couple, you know.

654
00:40:04,639 --> 00:40:07,599
I've actually I've met him in person. He's a nice guy. Yeah,

655
00:40:07,639 --> 00:40:09,320
he was a he was a bit
bought boom last years. He bought Jimmy

656
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:13,679
Song's hat at the option. Oh
nice, Yeah, Jimmy. That was

657
00:40:13,679 --> 00:40:16,400
the first time Jimmy auctioned his hat
off. Was at the dinner on Friday

658
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:20,639
night and he had bought it.
He's a really nice guy. Yeah.

659
00:40:20,679 --> 00:40:22,280
You know, I really care a
lot about A and M, and I

660
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:25,119
think that they don't really get a
good perspective at A and M of the

661
00:40:25,199 --> 00:40:30,079
outside world, like the West Coast
in tech, and I kind of stumbled

662
00:40:30,079 --> 00:40:32,159
my way out here, stumbled and
bumbled my way out here. So I

663
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:36,920
work with a startup aggie Land,
which is a sort of a way for

664
00:40:37,119 --> 00:40:42,800
aggies to get exposure to startups and
West Coast tech entrepreneurship whenever they come out

665
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:45,440
here, and I grab drinks and
dinner with them. When I worked at

666
00:40:45,519 --> 00:40:47,320
Uber, I gave them a tour
of Uber, you know, trying to

667
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:51,400
trying to bring big coiners out here. It's something that's important to me.

668
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,239
I think Texans are good people and
hard working people and smart people, and

669
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:58,119
I think we need more of them
on the coasts. I think you need

670
00:40:58,119 --> 00:41:02,360
more member where exactly this is from
crypto Cloaks. What is Project Apollo?

671
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:07,119
And he puts rolling on the Foe
laughing. Cryptocloaks and I have been working

672
00:41:07,599 --> 00:41:13,400
on a stealth project. It's I'm
fully employed to crack in and this is

673
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:17,599
not going to change that. But
Cryptocloaks what he does is he builds different

674
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:22,239
three D printed devices for bitcoinner Oh, he makes the hand grenades. Yeah,

675
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:27,679
that's right, he makes those for
people listening. That's a plastic plastic

676
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:30,800
but it's made to store open dimes
inside of it. Yeah. He has

677
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:36,519
a couple of different products. Some
are ways to stealth hide you like your

678
00:41:36,519 --> 00:41:39,280
treasurers or ledgers or your backups.
And then he also has like plastic full

679
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:44,920
note shells right right for open nose
or whatever. Yeah. So him and

680
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:47,840
I have been working on something very
very special that you know, again,

681
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:51,440
this is this is more fun.
This is not a full time thing.

682
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,360
This is something I've been doing for
fun, working with him on designing this

683
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:58,880
item. And so Project Apollo is
what we code named it. And I

684
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:02,119
think when bitcoiners it, it's going
to I think people are really gonna like

685
00:42:02,159 --> 00:42:07,039
it. I've got a tweetstorm coming
out about this notice with my personal brand,

686
00:42:07,119 --> 00:42:09,800
how it's kind of turned black and
white and a little bit more sci

687
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:13,840
fi like on my Twitter and some
of the tweets have been putting out the

688
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:16,639
black and white tweets kind of more
crisp and clean and sci fi aesthetic.

689
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:22,719
So I feel that bitcoin, Bitcoin's
cool, but I wanted to make it

690
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:25,280
feel What I feel about Bitcoin is
that it's like a futuristic sci fi novel.

691
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:30,440
Like Bitcoin's amazing, It's incredible,
And so I'm designing, you know,

692
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:35,559
I'm kind of re architecting my personal
brand and trying to make in designing

693
00:42:35,599 --> 00:42:39,719
graphics to make Bitcoin understandable and also
feel really cool. At least I subjectively

694
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:43,159
feel that way, and it seems
like people are liking it. So this

695
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:45,760
is what we're building pro with Project
Apolo fits right into that. Well,

696
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:52,639
I'm ready to see Project Apolo.
Any estimated date of arrival ETA time of

697
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:57,639
arrival. I'm filming the promo video
this week, so okay soon soon,

698
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:01,039
Okay. This is firm their g
I think this is kind of a cute

699
00:43:01,039 --> 00:43:06,639
one. How does it field have
held your whole life? I got a

700
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:08,599
very fortunate role the dice. When
it comes to my last name, I

701
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:12,320
kind of like with a blacksmith or
like the last name is smith. How

702
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:15,000
they used to be Blacksmith. Well
maybe maybe held I was always meant to

703
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:19,880
Hoddle. It's actually it's a German
last name, by the way, I

704
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:22,360
mean it's a hero in German.
Oh that's cool. Okay. This is

705
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:27,880
from s z Kabasa B. Can
you get him a remote part time job

706
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:31,440
at kracking customer Service? I think
I told him to check out the careers

707
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:35,039
page. We got quite a few
different roles open if you're interested in working

708
00:43:35,079 --> 00:43:37,440
at cracking. We are remote first, so you can work anywhere you'd like

709
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:40,679
and you can work at Cracking,
which is awesome because we've got a lot

710
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:45,079
of great roles open, and I
think the salaries are pretty competitively priced for

711
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:46,239
you know, if you live somewhere
cheap, you can you can kind of

712
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:51,320
arbitrage that difference. Yeah. I've
had to use customer service one time for

713
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:53,519
my accountant. I have no idea
who I talked too, but they were

714
00:43:53,599 --> 00:43:57,400
very helpful. I mean they took
care of my issues. So I got

715
00:43:57,519 --> 00:44:00,480
to say the customer service was was
super help I mean it was super elbow.

716
00:44:00,599 --> 00:44:04,760
Next one is from Matthew. Why
are in case? Do you like

717
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:07,960
beef jerkey, riverboat gambling or samurai
swords? You know, that's a really

718
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:12,880
tough decision. I like, I
like kind of like the Cormet beef turkey

719
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:15,480
where it's like, you know,
like elk, cariboo or something where it's

720
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:20,960
like a little bit more exotic.
M Have you seen this beef turkey steak

721
00:44:21,079 --> 00:44:24,239
strips? No, they're like little
pieces of steak. Yeah, premium cut

722
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:29,440
and cure dried beef from Kirkland.
I bought it one day and it's really

723
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:34,079
good. It's actually like steak.
Oh, that sounds pretty awesome. I

724
00:44:34,159 --> 00:44:37,559
like different flavors, though. There's
a there's a beef jerky stand up in

725
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,440
Colorado where I go every summer in
winter. We've got a family cabin out

726
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:45,599
there, and it's like they've got
these those they've got like cariboo, elk,

727
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:47,320
They've got crazy sort of flavors that
I think that's kind of fun.

728
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:51,440
So I'd have to go with beef
turkey there. Okay, this is from

729
00:44:51,519 --> 00:44:54,920
KG twenty nine thirty one. Why
is Dan the only bitcoin guy from the

730
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:59,599
early San Francisco meet up? Seems
like the rest of those people became pretty

731
00:44:59,599 --> 00:45:04,320
inten shit coiners. You know,
that's a pretty good question there actually is,

732
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:07,119
you know, I remember seeing that
comment. I forgot to reply.

733
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:10,559
Brian vo was there as well.
So Brian Vo is on the Lightning team,

734
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:14,199
so he's kind of one of the
founding people on Lightning, the Lightning

735
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:17,559
Labs with Elizabeth Dark So Brian vo
is there. Charlie Lee, even though

736
00:45:17,599 --> 00:45:21,559
he created a lightcoin, if you
talked to him and publicly, he's basically

737
00:45:21,599 --> 00:45:25,400
said he's a bitcoiner, and he
posts pretty positive things about I mean,

738
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:29,360
if you look at his posts and
really he'll even you even see him say

739
00:45:29,679 --> 00:45:31,679
Bitcoin's going to be it. Yeah. Yeah, he basically just made lightcoin

740
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:35,599
for fun, but he most of
his holdings are bitcoin, and he's really

741
00:45:35,599 --> 00:45:37,000
just a bitcoiner, right. I
mean that's he's publicly said that. And

742
00:45:37,039 --> 00:45:39,519
if you ask him private too,
I think he'll he'll be like, yeah,

743
00:45:39,679 --> 00:45:43,480
I'm really super bullish on bitcoin.
So i'd say Charlie's in that camp

744
00:45:43,519 --> 00:45:46,679
as well. So what is lightcoin
at a good time? But he kind

745
00:45:46,679 --> 00:45:49,800
of damned if he did Damned if
he didn't write like, yeah, you

746
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,239
sell it and it goes up,
people are gonna make funny. If you

747
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:53,920
sell it and then it drops,
then people are going to be like,

748
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:57,039
oh, you you sold the top, but like, no one knows what

749
00:45:57,119 --> 00:45:59,559
the top's going to be, right, So I feel bad for the guy

750
00:45:59,559 --> 00:46:01,159
because it's really he did it the
most honorable way I thought you could,

751
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:05,199
which is publicly disclosing it. No, he did disclow like I said it

752
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:07,880
just as a fact. He definitely
sold it its right time. He timed

753
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:09,760
it perfectly. Charlie's a traitor.
You know. He's a big poker guy.

754
00:46:10,039 --> 00:46:13,880
I've I've played. I've gambled with
him in Vegas too. He's a

755
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:16,119
lot of fun. But yeah,
he's a he's a pretty sharp investor.

756
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:21,559
Okay. The next one is from
Robert Robot visions if something goes wrong with

757
00:46:21,599 --> 00:46:25,119
bitcoin and all the hoddlers throwing the
towel, what will happen next? Bitcoin

758
00:46:25,199 --> 00:46:30,280
dies? Yeah? I have hard
time believing something could happen to make milk.

759
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:31,880
That brings up a good point,
which is that I thought, I

760
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:36,480
often say that bitcoin only dies if
we all stopped believing in it. Every

761
00:46:36,519 --> 00:46:38,639
hoddler would have to not believe in
it and not be the bid for the

762
00:46:38,679 --> 00:46:42,559
price, and the price would go
to zero. So yeah, and that

763
00:46:42,599 --> 00:46:45,519
scenario, bitcoin dies, but it
dies because it died in everyone's mind.

764
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:49,679
Like we all stopped believing in it, which makes it with the dollar or

765
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:52,719
gold. If everyone tomorrow was like, I don't think gold, it's just

766
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:54,320
a shiny rock. I don't really
want to buy it. I don't think

767
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:59,000
it has any sort of monetary you
know, premium, then certainly gold would

768
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:01,119
go to zero as well. It's
kind of like that to wear that YouTube

769
00:47:01,199 --> 00:47:05,920
video that came out a couple of
years ago of the like caveman or something

770
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:07,760
going to buy a chicken and he
pulls out a piece of gold and he

771
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:10,480
goes, I got this rock and
it's going to be really big, and

772
00:47:10,519 --> 00:47:14,320
a guy goes, can I eat
it? Nope? Can I do this?

773
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:17,239
Nope? I don't want that rock. You know it doesn't help utility,

774
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:20,880
right, Yeah? I love that
argument about bitcoin O. It doesn't

775
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:23,239
have any utility. I'm like,
it's store value properties, or we'll giving

776
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:28,320
utility. Okay. The last one
is from Victor E. Rim Assuming a

777
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:31,039
future bit This is a long one. Assuming a future bitcoin market cap of

778
00:47:31,199 --> 00:47:37,760
less than one hundred trillion and scaling
issues resolved in lightning or simulartech. Does

779
00:47:37,119 --> 00:47:42,559
Dan eventually envision a world in which
bitcoin is the only money in existence?

780
00:47:42,639 --> 00:47:47,280
We sometimes hear analysts say bitcoin pegg
fiat might to continue and might continue in

781
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:52,679
such a world. Okay, so
that's the whole question. So essentially,

782
00:47:52,679 --> 00:47:55,920
I guess what he's asking is that
Bitcoin achieves its Gold two point o status,

783
00:47:57,119 --> 00:48:00,679
fully legitimized, fully recognize as that
probably not just go two point of

784
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:04,360
but essentially killed gold. If it's
one hundred trillion market cap, that means

785
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:08,239
that bitcoin is was a resounding success, an absolute maximal success, you know.

786
00:48:09,639 --> 00:48:13,079
And so I guess the question is, like how does bitcoin scale?

787
00:48:14,079 --> 00:48:17,400
I don't think you can't really say
that like without lightning or other implementations,

788
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:22,039
because we've already seen the We've already
seen those work on production. Like these

789
00:48:22,039 --> 00:48:28,199
aren't theoretical scaling improvements. They're currently
running. This isn't like will it work

790
00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:30,559
or not. And in fact,
like you know, if two exchanges wanted

791
00:48:30,559 --> 00:48:35,159
to open up a lightning channel between
them for their traders to send money back

792
00:48:35,159 --> 00:48:38,360
and forth, you know they can
do that already, So like that would

793
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:43,559
reduce on chain volume by x percentage, right, like just between two exchanges,

794
00:48:43,599 --> 00:48:46,400
Like a lot of a lot of
the volume is like our arbitrage traders

795
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:52,280
moving funds between exchanges, traders,
moving funds, and so you know,

796
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:54,599
even if Lightning is basically a B
to B tool, it would still be

797
00:48:54,639 --> 00:49:00,639
massively successful in terms of making Bitcoin
more efficient or compressing the economic activity into

798
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:05,360
one transaction. Similarly, we have
Liquid, which is fully up and running

799
00:49:05,679 --> 00:49:08,639
with blockstream, so that's been on
main neet for a long time now,

800
00:49:09,039 --> 00:49:13,239
and we've got other school solutions as
well. If people forget that, you

801
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:15,639
know, on layer one we've got
the Bitcoin blockchain, there are two,

802
00:49:15,679 --> 00:49:19,840
you've got Lightning, Liquid, and
then layer three you've got you know,

803
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:24,719
companies like coin base and cracking,
where coin Base and cracking consend transactions to

804
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:30,840
the users internally and they're just changing
an internal database or things like that.

805
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:34,719
So I think with that sort of
scaling pyramid in mind, where you have

806
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:38,639
a few transactions on layer one,
many more in layer two, and sort

807
00:49:38,679 --> 00:49:43,559
of infinite capacity on layer three,
I don't really have any doubt that Bitcoin,

808
00:49:44,039 --> 00:49:46,119
given one hundred trillion market cap,
will be able to scale to meet

809
00:49:46,119 --> 00:49:51,239
the requirements the world. Okay,
well, where can people follow you at?

810
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:55,360
Well, if you're on Twitter,
I'm at Dan Held If you'd like

811
00:49:55,400 --> 00:50:00,920
to read more long form content and
danheld dot com slash blog. You're going

812
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:04,079
to find a lot of my thoughts
on proof of work, planting bitcoin,

813
00:50:04,079 --> 00:50:09,480
which is Bitcoin's origin story, Satoshi's
fairness of his distribution, what role hoddlers

814
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:14,440
play, and if you're worried about
bitcoin's long term security. I wrote a

815
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:17,920
comprehensive take on that. And before
we go, is there anything that you

816
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:22,119
might have wanted to promote or bring
up that I didn't cover. I want

817
00:50:22,119 --> 00:50:23,280
to make sure I don't catch you
off. And there's something you wanted to

818
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:28,360
cover during a conversation, I think
we covered it. We brought up Project

819
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:30,079
to Paulo, which I think everyone's
going to find really interesting. It's kind

820
00:50:30,079 --> 00:50:34,199
of fun. It's been been a
little you know, it's my entertainment under

821
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:37,159
quarantine essentially, So yeah, Project
Apollo is gonna be really cool. You

822
00:50:37,199 --> 00:50:40,880
know, if you like my content
or if you have anything that any suggestions,

823
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:45,599
please feel free to reach out or
tweet at me. I largely kind

824
00:50:45,639 --> 00:50:49,840
of build what I believe is cool
and and produce content what I believe is

825
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:52,639
cool, but that comes with a
lot of feedback from the community, So

826
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:55,760
don't feel afraid to tweet at me
and tell me what you think cool you

827
00:50:55,840 --> 00:51:00,320
are. I just let you know
you're officially a crypto cousin. Now let

828
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:04,440
it be part of the family.
Hey, thanks for coming on the show.

829
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:07,000
I really do appreciate it. Dan. It's going a little longer than

830
00:51:07,199 --> 00:51:08,719
you and I had told you would, but I appreciate you not being in

831
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:12,480
a hurry and taking the time.
And I look forward to seeing it again

832
00:51:12,599 --> 00:51:16,159
wherever it happens. You know.
I'm sure within the next year there's gonna

833
00:51:16,159 --> 00:51:19,960
be somewhere we're going to run into
each other, I hope. So I'm

834
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:22,559
excited to you know. I do. Then I do quite a bit of

835
00:51:22,599 --> 00:51:24,320
the conferences in the space, and
I'm kind of itch you to get back

836
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:28,079
to having a drink with a couple
of bit coiners at the bar. Well,

837
00:51:28,079 --> 00:51:30,159
we need to maybe get you out
here and see your parents and Kevin

838
00:51:30,159 --> 00:51:34,039
to bug Boom. Yeah, I
mean Dallas is my home city, so

839
00:51:34,079 --> 00:51:37,679
I think it's time to come back
to my hometown. Well, thanks for

840
00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:39,360
taking the time with me on the
show. I do appreciate it. Thanks

841
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:44,159
for having me, deary Sures.
I hope you've enjoyed today's show, and

842
00:51:44,159 --> 00:51:45,679
I want to give a big thank
you to all my cousins out there for

843
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:50,920
listening and subscribe. If you haven't
subscribed yet, just go to crypto cousins

844
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:53,119
dot com and you'll see the links
for all the places you can subscribe.

845
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:57,679
You want to take a second,
leave a great review or four star ranking

846
00:51:57,719 --> 00:52:00,840
even while you're at it, I
also recommend you a crypto podcast dot com

847
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:06,800
and see all my other podcasts and
websites for the world of bitcoin. There's

848
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:12,159
a lot of millocady. Thanks for
listening to the Cryptocusins podcast. Please share

849
00:52:12,159 --> 00:52:15,280
the show with your friends. They
can subscribe by going to cryptocusins dot com

850
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:20,239
slash subscribe, and if you want
to know more about Gary, just go

851
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:24,159
to Gary Leland dot com. Make
sure and join Gary in all the Cryptocusins

852
00:52:24,159 --> 00:52:30,920
every week for a new episode of
the Cryptocusins podcast. The Cryptocusins podcast and

853
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:37,400
the information included in the podcast are
not intended as investment advice. Investing in

854
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:40,599
any cryptocurrency is risky and you should
never invest more than you can afford to

855
00:52:40,639 --> 00:52:46,639
lose. Always seek professional advice before
investing in any cryptocurrency. Please understand you

856
00:52:46,719 --> 00:53:02,000
are using any and all information from
the Cryptocusins at your own risk.