WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.240 --> 00:00:08.119 Hudson River Radio dot com. This is Travis Walton and you are listening to 2 00:00:08.640 --> 00:00:24.320 UFO Headquarters. Beutiful Headquarters in a happy September to everybody listening to UFO Headquarters 3 00:00:24.359 --> 00:00:29.160 on Hudson River Radio. And thank you to Travis Walton as always my favorite 4 00:00:29.280 --> 00:00:35.280 introduction ever. Linda, And how are you tonight? I'm good. How 5 00:00:35.280 --> 00:00:38.439 are you doing? I'm hanging in there. I can't complain all right, 6 00:00:38.560 --> 00:00:43.399 well, you know I can always complain, but I won't tonight. But 7 00:00:44.359 --> 00:00:48.960 before we start, I want to give a shout out. If he's listening, 8 00:00:49.200 --> 00:00:55.159 Robert Gibson in Nanaimo. I hope I said that right Nanaimo, British 9 00:00:55.200 --> 00:01:02.960 Columbia sent a wonderful letter. And we really do appreciate people who get in 10 00:01:03.039 --> 00:01:08.719 touch and hard to believe people around the world are listening to us. How 11 00:01:08.719 --> 00:01:11.760 did that happen, Mike, I don't know, but yeah, thank you, 12 00:01:11.760 --> 00:01:14.680 you know, for taking the time to write to us. And we 13 00:01:14.719 --> 00:01:19.079 do appreciate hearing from people and seeing how we interact with different parts of the 14 00:01:19.120 --> 00:01:23.159 world here. It's kind of um, kind of humbling, it is. 15 00:01:23.599 --> 00:01:32.640 It is, yeah, most appreciated. We are getting into a remarkable case. 16 00:01:32.719 --> 00:01:37.760 I think one of the best in all of uphology, abducted on the 17 00:01:37.840 --> 00:01:44.519 Ala Gash. But first, m sadly for those of you who listened to 18 00:01:44.599 --> 00:01:53.400 one of our earliest shows with Dennis Sant two years ago. Dennis, I 19 00:01:53.519 --> 00:02:00.799 was stunned to find out on August twenty sixth he passed away completely unexpected. 20 00:02:02.959 --> 00:02:10.879 I was honestly just stunned and heartbroken. He was the sweetest guy. He 21 00:02:12.280 --> 00:02:19.599 You may have seen him on Unsolved Mysteries because he was one of the first 22 00:02:19.639 --> 00:02:24.919 and best witnesses to the UFO wave of the eighties. His sighting, his 23 00:02:25.039 --> 00:02:31.919 major sighting was on March seventeenth, nineteen eighty three. I could go I 24 00:02:31.960 --> 00:02:38.479 could rehash all that, but go back in the archives on Hudson River Radio 25 00:02:38.639 --> 00:02:44.199 or you know wherever you get your podcast, as they say, and just 26 00:02:44.759 --> 00:02:50.000 the the title of that show is Dennis Sant and it's worth listening. UM. 27 00:02:51.680 --> 00:02:54.159 I was wonderful to see him over the years, keep saying I'm going 28 00:02:54.199 --> 00:02:57.560 to write a book. I'm going to write a book, and then finally 29 00:02:57.639 --> 00:03:00.919 Dennis writes your book, and he finally out his book, which we talked 30 00:03:00.919 --> 00:03:07.159 about. UM. The other side of connecting the cosmic Dots a personal journey 31 00:03:07.159 --> 00:03:15.439 of awareness, realization, and acceptance. And I just want to read these 32 00:03:15.479 --> 00:03:21.840 lines from his obituary, which really sums of it up. Dennis loved family 33 00:03:21.879 --> 00:03:25.800 and friends. If you met Dennis as a stranger, you left with a 34 00:03:25.879 --> 00:03:30.879 new friend. To know him was to love him. And absolutely, I 35 00:03:30.960 --> 00:03:37.919 met Dennis many years ago when I first started doing research for the for the 36 00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:43.439 first UFO book, and he was just a kindred spirit. We hit it 37 00:03:43.479 --> 00:03:50.120 off right away, and I walked into his office as a stranger and walked 38 00:03:50.120 --> 00:03:53.599 out as as lifelong friends. So I was I was honored to have a 39 00:03:53.639 --> 00:04:00.400 friend like that. So he will be sadly and sorely missed. Yeah, 40 00:04:00.439 --> 00:04:05.000 definitely. He was a big part of the Hudson Valley, not just the 41 00:04:05.080 --> 00:04:09.439 UFO community so to speak, but the Hudson Valley itself, and was a 42 00:04:09.439 --> 00:04:13.520 great guest. Again, if you haven't listened to that episode, it's just 43 00:04:13.639 --> 00:04:16.920 we could have talked to Dennis for hours at night. It really wasn't even 44 00:04:16.959 --> 00:04:21.360 an interview, it was just a conversation. He's but my interaction with him 45 00:04:21.399 --> 00:04:24.399 was limited. But again, like you said, just talking to him for 46 00:04:24.439 --> 00:04:27.519 a few minutes, you feel like you've known him your whole life, so 47 00:04:28.319 --> 00:04:33.680 he definitely has someone who left an impact, absolutely, and my condolences to 48 00:04:34.920 --> 00:04:41.560 his widow Kathy is I believe five kids, nineteen grandkids. I may be 49 00:04:41.759 --> 00:04:46.759 behind a grand kid or two there, but he was all about family and 50 00:04:46.879 --> 00:04:53.639 friends and a lot of people will miss him. So why don't we, 51 00:04:54.560 --> 00:05:00.959 Brian take our first break and come back with Abducted on the Allagash Hudson River 52 00:05:01.079 --> 00:05:06.519 Radio dot Com. Hey, Von, do you know what Tony the Rooster 53 00:05:06.600 --> 00:05:11.319 is telling you? Hey? Also, of course I do. That's right. 54 00:05:11.439 --> 00:05:15.040 Tony wants you to join us for Getting Dirty on Hudson River Radio dot 55 00:05:15.040 --> 00:05:17.879 Com. You'll learn all about gardening, local farming, and farmers and why 56 00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:24.480 it's cool to Get Dirty journal us because it's awesome. Le also subscribe to 57 00:05:24.639 --> 00:05:29.199 Getting Dirty on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeart, or wherever you get your 58 00:05:29.199 --> 00:05:35.639 podcasts. I'm Linda Zimmerman. Join Michael Warden in me for Murder in the 59 00:05:35.720 --> 00:05:42.439 Hudson Valley. We'll look into notorious homicide cases from around the region and follow 60 00:05:42.480 --> 00:05:46.639 the case from the moment the crime scene is discovered up to the final verdict. 61 00:05:46.199 --> 00:05:51.800 We'll discuss the suspects, evidence, forensic techniques, and legal battles used 62 00:05:51.800 --> 00:05:58.839 to identify and convict the guilty. Murder in the Hudson Valley only on Hudson 63 00:05:58.959 --> 00:06:03.879 River Radio dot Com. Subscribe to Murder in the Hudson Valley on Apple Podcasts, 64 00:06:03.959 --> 00:06:09.519 Spotify, iHeart, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hudson Radio dot 65 00:06:09.600 --> 00:06:15.560 Com a subsidiary of Glacier Entertainment all LC blasting the competition in New York's Hudson 66 00:06:15.639 --> 00:06:21.759 Valley. And we are back in Linda. I think, um, right 67 00:06:21.759 --> 00:06:26.120 before the break, you talked about Dennis, and I think it's only appropriate 68 00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:31.480 that we we dedicate tonight's show in his honor, his memory and his legacy 69 00:06:31.839 --> 00:06:36.879 and the Hudson Valley UFO community research and bringing it, bringing it out into 70 00:06:36.879 --> 00:06:41.040 the public. So this is for you, Dennis, and we know you're 71 00:06:41.079 --> 00:06:48.519 listening. Yeah. Absolutely, that's that's Greg. Yeah, definitely vital piece 72 00:06:48.720 --> 00:06:57.639 who really helped establish the Hudson Valley wave and document it. So Um, 73 00:06:58.040 --> 00:07:04.199 but we have another kid here which is just is just incredible. I will 74 00:07:04.360 --> 00:07:11.399 briefly flash my notes here. It's it's the notes are horrific. I'm all 75 00:07:11.439 --> 00:07:15.879 over the place, but I wanted to. When you have the opportunity to 76 00:07:15.040 --> 00:07:20.560 have actual quotes from the witnesses rather than me recounting it, you can't beat 77 00:07:21.279 --> 00:07:30.199 the witness's words. So we are going back to nineteen seventy six in Maine 78 00:07:31.120 --> 00:07:40.199 and four friends, twins identical twins you can relate to that Mike right, 79 00:07:41.360 --> 00:07:46.920 Jack and Jim Wiener, their friend Chuck Rack and Charlie Folts. They were 80 00:07:46.959 --> 00:07:54.720 all students together at an art school in Massachusetts, and they decided, let's 81 00:07:54.800 --> 00:08:03.079 take a trip into the Alagash Wilderness of Maine. Haven't been to the Alagash 82 00:08:03.160 --> 00:08:07.240 or Mount Catodden or anything. I haven't been that. I've I've passed the 83 00:08:07.360 --> 00:08:13.279 sign for it, and I've seen Mount Catodon in the distance. Mount Cataden 84 00:08:13.399 --> 00:08:16.879 is, i think, the highest point in Maine and the start of the 85 00:08:16.920 --> 00:08:24.920 Appalachian Trail. And when they say wilderness, it's it's wilderness. And you 86 00:08:24.959 --> 00:08:28.839 can imagine back in seventy six, I was looking at some of the pictures 87 00:08:28.839 --> 00:08:33.200 when I was doing the research, and it still looks like like when you 88 00:08:33.240 --> 00:08:35.799 say that, literally the middle of nowhere, that's what it looks like. 89 00:08:35.840 --> 00:08:41.039 I mean, I give them credit for even going out into a wilderness like 90 00:08:41.120 --> 00:08:45.039 that. Yeah, you don't drive your car to the parking lot and get 91 00:08:45.080 --> 00:08:50.840 out in Oh, here's the wilderness. You take a bush plane and canoes 92 00:08:50.440 --> 00:08:56.080 and you you canoe from lake to lake and when you can't cross from lake 93 00:08:56.080 --> 00:09:01.840 to lake, you portage and for you folks, for people who don't know 94 00:09:01.879 --> 00:09:07.039 what, you pick up your canoe in gear and you walk it to the 95 00:09:07.080 --> 00:09:09.759 next lake, which they had to do. Well, we'll get into that. 96 00:09:11.000 --> 00:09:16.919 So it was August twenty sixth and they were going to be spending seventeen 97 00:09:18.080 --> 00:09:24.600 days. That's that's a nice trip. And they started by climbing. They 98 00:09:24.679 --> 00:09:33.440 hiked up Mount Kataden and then they took the they strapped canoes to the pontoons 99 00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:37.679 of the plane that was flying them in and they flew in with all their 100 00:09:37.720 --> 00:09:45.840 provisions. So you can imagine camping, hiking, kayak canoeing with seventeen days 101 00:09:45.879 --> 00:09:50.679 of provisions everything you need. Um, that's not a little daypack. That 102 00:09:50.840 --> 00:09:54.080 is This isn't the trip on a whim. This is something that has to 103 00:09:54.120 --> 00:10:01.080 be and you have to be in shape. This is you know, this 104 00:10:01.200 --> 00:10:07.639 is hard. You could I used to kayak every single day and I can't 105 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:13.399 imagine doing it all day for seventeen days, so you need to be in 106 00:10:15.200 --> 00:10:18.840 really good shape. But they were. They're all young guys, good good 107 00:10:18.879 --> 00:10:28.600 shape. So um. On the second night on Chamberlain Lake, they see 108 00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:35.720 something strange and Jim, who's one of the twins, his comment was that 109 00:10:35.919 --> 00:10:39.399 they're they're on the they're in the camp and they look out and they see 110 00:10:39.440 --> 00:10:43.759 this light. He says, it was just floating above the treetops, didn't 111 00:10:43.799 --> 00:10:48.759 seem to be moving in any direction. And I looked at it through the 112 00:10:48.799 --> 00:10:56.799 binoculars for maybe fifteen thirty seconds and it suddenly just winked out from the outside 113 00:10:56.000 --> 00:11:01.840 edges inward like a iris and a camera. That's my comment, but he 114 00:11:01.919 --> 00:11:07.879 had also said that not your typical light in the sky to do that. 115 00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:13.320 He said, I mean it literally just went whoop like that and it was 116 00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:18.639 gone. There was something about this thing that left me with an odd feeling 117 00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:22.279 that wasn't quite right, but I didn't dwell on it. Yeah, I'd 118 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:26.639 say that's not quite right. Yeah, I'd be a little nervous at this 119 00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:31.039 point. Yes, you're in the middle of nowhere. They probably the last 120 00:11:31.080 --> 00:11:37.600 thing they're thinking on this trip is UFOs. You know, they weren't. 121 00:11:37.159 --> 00:11:43.919 They weren't there for that. So they all saw this light and just had 122 00:11:43.960 --> 00:11:50.360 a strange feeling. But next day they got up and went out and were 123 00:11:50.440 --> 00:11:56.519 going about their business. And they spent the next day trying to I love 124 00:11:56.600 --> 00:12:03.759 this, trying to go up stream to Alagash Lake. But the current coming 125 00:12:03.799 --> 00:12:07.840 down. If you've ever tried to paddle upstream, are up again. I've 126 00:12:07.840 --> 00:12:13.320 been out on the lake and on oceans where there's a wind or a current 127 00:12:13.720 --> 00:12:18.679 and you were paddling your heart out and the scenery is not moving on shore 128 00:12:18.840 --> 00:12:28.480 because you're you're just lucky to keep keep up. So after exhausting themselves all 129 00:12:28.600 --> 00:12:33.639 day, they gave up and here we go. They portaged a half a 130 00:12:33.720 --> 00:12:37.000 mile. What they did, these were big canoes. They had their provisions 131 00:12:37.039 --> 00:12:41.519 in them, and they had like these carrying sticks. Two and the two 132 00:12:41.559 --> 00:12:46.240 guys in the front, two guys in the back carry the canoe. One 133 00:12:46.279 --> 00:12:52.120 of the canoes and provisions half mile, come the half mile back, get 134 00:12:52.200 --> 00:12:56.559 the other canoe. Right. Yeah, this yeah, this is not a 135 00:12:56.639 --> 00:13:03.519 club med vacation. It's a lot of work. I can only imagine having 136 00:13:03.559 --> 00:13:05.840 to pick your canoe up loaded with everything, carry it, put it there 137 00:13:05.840 --> 00:13:11.759 and go back and get your other one again. That's a it's not a 138 00:13:11.799 --> 00:13:15.200 vacation, but it's a it's an adventure for sure. It's an adventure. 139 00:13:15.639 --> 00:13:22.440 And so the fourth day they finally they get onto Eagle Lake. So that's 140 00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:28.240 the important thing for those who are Google mapping this as we go along. 141 00:13:28.440 --> 00:13:35.039 Eagle Lake is very important. They decide they get there kind of late in 142 00:13:35.080 --> 00:13:41.159 the day and they set up camp, and they decide to do some night 143 00:13:41.200 --> 00:13:45.480 fishing. It's very cool being on a boat in a lake or something on 144 00:13:45.519 --> 00:13:52.399 the water at night. It's very strange feeling. So you need to find 145 00:13:52.440 --> 00:13:58.200 your way back to camp. It's not like this was the jelly Stone campground 146 00:13:58.480 --> 00:14:03.120 and there was a big lighted bear to welcome you. You know too. 147 00:14:03.240 --> 00:14:09.679 Sure, So they built a big bonfire and big logs. They didn't know 148 00:14:09.720 --> 00:14:16.000 how long they'd be out there, so they figured this fire would burn three 149 00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:20.879 two, three four hours pro at least three hours. So this is an 150 00:14:20.919 --> 00:14:30.120 important part of the story of the big bonfire. So they shove off. 151 00:14:30.159 --> 00:14:35.840 They just taking one canoe. Charlie's in the front with a paddle, Chuck's 152 00:14:35.879 --> 00:14:39.519 in the rear with a paddle, and then the twins are just sitting in 153 00:14:39.000 --> 00:14:45.720 the middle. They apparently weren't the greatest canoeists, so the other guys had 154 00:14:45.759 --> 00:14:54.919 the paddle and chuck comments. I had a feeling there was someone staring at 155 00:14:54.960 --> 00:15:01.080 me from behind me, which is not good when you're out on a very 156 00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:07.039 dark lake. I turned over my right shoulder and I saw this large, 157 00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:13.840 round globe of light that looked exactly like what we had seen two nights previously. 158 00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:18.799 It was white, red, green, a liquid kind of melding motion. 159 00:15:20.039 --> 00:15:28.360 Oh what was this? Following them? It's I'm just trying to imagine. 160 00:15:28.399 --> 00:15:31.720 You've ever been in the woods at night, or on a lake at 161 00:15:31.799 --> 00:15:35.159 night when it's pitch dark. It's already unnerving to some extent. Can you 162 00:15:35.240 --> 00:15:41.039 imagine being out there and seeing this? Yes, where do you go? 163 00:15:41.080 --> 00:15:43.120 You're on a canoe in the middle of the lake in the dark, right, 164 00:15:43.240 --> 00:15:48.240 and then you realize, oh, wait a minute, this is the 165 00:15:48.320 --> 00:15:54.000 same thing we saw two days ago. Like, I'm sure that that just 166 00:15:54.120 --> 00:16:02.120 increased their anxiety. Jim commented. It had this roiling effect to it, 167 00:16:02.240 --> 00:16:07.960 like a miniature son, very very bright. It lit the tree tops up 168 00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:15.720 like daylight and was absolutely silent. We've certainly heard that before. Yes, 169 00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:19.320 but at least if you're on land, you can run, right, so 170 00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:29.159 Chuck commented. After looking at it for what seemed like several moments, we 171 00:16:29.360 --> 00:16:36.679 decided to signal this thing. That's when Charlie picked up the flashlight and squeezed 172 00:16:36.720 --> 00:16:41.679 off a message, s O s now. We had a I would recommend 173 00:16:41.799 --> 00:16:47.080 listeners if you haven't listened to all our shows. We did a show called 174 00:16:47.360 --> 00:16:52.000 be Careful what You ask for. People think, oh, cool, maybe 175 00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:56.000 this is an UFO. Let me flash my flashlight at it. Not always 176 00:16:56.039 --> 00:17:04.000 good results. No, So Charlie is he's got his hand cupped over the 177 00:17:04.039 --> 00:17:08.359 flashlight and move, you know, moving it off and back to Morse code 178 00:17:08.839 --> 00:17:15.160 SOS, which that is not smart in itself. If it was a helicopter 179 00:17:15.359 --> 00:17:21.000 or a plane, you don't want to just arbitrarily. SOS means you know 180 00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:25.160 you are in trouble. But I guess that's the only thing I was gonna 181 00:17:25.160 --> 00:17:29.039 say. It's probably the one Morris code that everybody knows, you know, 182 00:17:29.119 --> 00:17:33.079 dot dot dot, you know, the right, So yeah, it's probably 183 00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:37.559 popped in his head like oh hey, you know right. So at first, 184 00:17:38.279 --> 00:17:45.599 this this object reacted immediately by shining down a beam at light of light 185 00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:48.720 and they thought at first, this is the coolest thing in the world. 186 00:17:49.559 --> 00:17:55.880 Um. And then Charlie said, until the light started coming towards us, 187 00:17:56.400 --> 00:18:02.079 my curiosity was satisfied, and I just dropped the flashlight. The only thought 188 00:18:02.160 --> 00:18:08.000 in my mind was get too sure and not look back. So again, 189 00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:15.240 these four guys are in the canoe. This craft responds instantly to him flashing 190 00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:22.880 a light by suddenly turning on a beam of light and rushing toward them. 191 00:18:22.920 --> 00:18:32.519 Not a good idea. Yeah, so they I don't know if they had 192 00:18:32.519 --> 00:18:36.839 to turn around, but Charlie and Chuck at each end with the paddles, 193 00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:41.799 are paddling as fast as they can toward the bonfire because they see the blazing 194 00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:47.640 bonfire. Thank god they had the presence of mind to build it. And 195 00:18:47.680 --> 00:18:49.599 then the twins are in the middle. They have no paddle, but they're 196 00:18:49.599 --> 00:18:56.599 so freaked out they're using their hands. So you can picture these four terrified 197 00:18:56.680 --> 00:19:03.559 guys doing whatever they can to paddle towards shore. And at this point, 198 00:19:03.640 --> 00:19:07.759 I think we'll take our second break because there's a lot to unpack after this. 199 00:19:08.519 --> 00:19:15.960 We'll be Lson River Radio dot Com, your local Rockland County station Gale 200 00:19:15.039 --> 00:19:19.960 newgam Here did you know You can now subscribe to all of Hudson River Radio's 201 00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:26.400 podcasts, including Paranormally Yours, and they're always available right in our Hudson River 202 00:19:26.519 --> 00:19:32.039 Radio app. You can also sponsor one of our shows. To get your 203 00:19:32.039 --> 00:19:37.839 message heard locally and around the world. Just shoot an email to info at 204 00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:44.119 Hudson River Radio dot com and we'll get you started. That's Info at Hudson 205 00:19:44.240 --> 00:19:49.680 River Radio dot com. Subscribe to Paranormally Yours on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, 206 00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:57.400 iHeart, or wherever you get your podcasts. Karen NOOI here, did you 207 00:19:57.480 --> 00:20:03.440 know that You can now subsc scribe to all of Hudson River Radio's podcasts, 208 00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:07.680 including the Angel Quest Show, and of course they're always available right in our 209 00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:12.559 Hudson River Radio app. You can hear our podcasts anytime and anywhere. You 210 00:20:12.559 --> 00:20:17.880 can also sponsor one of our shows to get your messages heard locally and around 211 00:20:17.880 --> 00:20:22.799 the world. Just shoot an email to info at Hudson River Radio dot com 212 00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:29.319 and we'll get you started. That's Info at Hudson River Radio dot com. 213 00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:34.079 Subscribe to the Angel Quest Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeart, or 214 00:20:34.119 --> 00:20:45.039 wherever you get your podcasts. This is Hudson River Radio dot com. We 215 00:20:45.119 --> 00:20:51.079 are back and we are in the Alagash Wilderness and Maine with the four adventurers 216 00:20:51.160 --> 00:20:56.440 who have just had this very unnerving encounter out on a lake. And it 217 00:20:56.559 --> 00:21:00.039 just gets more bizarre from here. Like you said, Linda, this is 218 00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:03.160 one of the most compelling cases. I remember when this was big in the 219 00:21:03.240 --> 00:21:10.400 news. So yeah, how recent. I mean, I'm up there, 220 00:21:10.440 --> 00:21:18.279 but you know I remember from not the seventies. Well, well, well 221 00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:22.440 we'll get to you probably remember the nineties when okay, okay, yes, 222 00:21:22.599 --> 00:21:27.279 I know you had to qualify that. Um So, so here are these 223 00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:33.720 four men frantically paddling using hands and paddles to get back to shore, and 224 00:21:33.880 --> 00:21:37.720 Jim commented, I remember looking over my shoulder trying to keep an eye on 225 00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:42.480 this object as it was coming up behind us. It was getting very close. 226 00:21:42.720 --> 00:21:48.240 It was almost on top of us at this point. I remember thinking, 227 00:21:48.920 --> 00:21:52.480 we are not going to outrun this thing, and that had to be 228 00:21:53.559 --> 00:21:59.160 That just gives me a chill saying that, thinking at that moment, I 229 00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:03.559 don't know what it's going to do, but it's almost on top of us, 230 00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:08.559 and that light this is this is like so bizarre. The light they 231 00:22:08.680 --> 00:22:15.079 described as not not just a beam of light that scatters, It was a 232 00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:19.319 concentrated they said, it was like a glass tube, almost like a blue 233 00:22:19.480 --> 00:22:26.839 neon light in this solid It seemed, well, you know, like a 234 00:22:26.200 --> 00:22:33.039 like a glass tube that was just conducting this light coming closer and closer to 235 00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:41.559 beaming on them as this craft is overhead. At this point, something happens, 236 00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:49.160 because the next thing they know, Jack, Jim and Charlie are standing 237 00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:55.400 on the shore and the canoe is on the shore with Chuck sitting in it, 238 00:22:56.319 --> 00:23:02.119 and they're thinking this bit, how did we get They don't remember getting 239 00:23:02.119 --> 00:23:07.640 to shore. They think twenty minutes has passed, but that raging bonfire that 240 00:23:07.839 --> 00:23:14.960 was going to last at least three hours was burned down to little embers. 241 00:23:17.000 --> 00:23:25.240 Oh, once again, that is an amazing detail and very important detail. 242 00:23:25.640 --> 00:23:32.400 Yes, And Charlie looks at his watch and acknowledges that no, it's not 243 00:23:32.480 --> 00:23:40.200 twenty minutes, but three hours has passed. But they don't seem to register. 244 00:23:40.799 --> 00:23:47.839 They seem a bit in the days. They seem completely exhausted, and 245 00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:49.880 Charlie says, well, should I build the fire back up? And now, 246 00:23:49.960 --> 00:23:52.559 no, no, no, let's just let's just go to sleep. 247 00:23:53.079 --> 00:23:59.720 They were just so bone tired, and it didn't it didn't sink in, 248 00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:03.519 where have we been the last three hours? How did we get to shore? 249 00:24:04.359 --> 00:24:10.279 It's just like, I don't know if it was shock or just their 250 00:24:10.400 --> 00:24:19.920 memories already starting to be kind of erased. And the next morning they get 251 00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:27.480 up and they just start going about their business. Jack commented, the unusual 252 00:24:27.640 --> 00:24:33.400 thing is that we didn't stay We didn't stay up for hours and discuss this 253 00:24:33.480 --> 00:24:37.839 thing, which what you'd think four young guys on a camping trip would do. 254 00:24:37.480 --> 00:24:41.799 We just seemed very fatigued and wanted to go to bed. The next 255 00:24:41.839 --> 00:24:45.839 morning, we got up, got our camp together, and paddled to the 256 00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:52.039 next camp site. So this is another thing we see time and time again. 257 00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:57.119 The most remarkable thing that's ever happened to you in your life happens, 258 00:24:57.279 --> 00:25:00.960 and it's like, okay, all right, well I think I'll go home 259 00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:06.240 now and watch the TV and go to bed. Very consistent. Yes, 260 00:25:07.000 --> 00:25:11.400 yes, so they didn't think about it, and and a couple other comments. 261 00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:18.799 When they were on shore, the craft was right there, forty feet 262 00:25:18.799 --> 00:25:23.720 away, and Jim said, I remember thinking I could pick up a stone 263 00:25:23.720 --> 00:25:29.640 and bounce it off the side of this thing right away. That's how close 264 00:25:29.680 --> 00:25:33.240 it is. Then all of a sudden, it just streaked away, very 265 00:25:33.400 --> 00:25:37.359 very fast, and with a few sets within a few seconds, like a 266 00:25:37.480 --> 00:25:44.400 star. It was just another light in the sky. And Chuck commented, 267 00:25:44.440 --> 00:25:49.640 everybody seemed calm and relax, no no panic. And Charlie even tried the 268 00:25:51.240 --> 00:25:55.200 light trick. Even after all that he tried because now he thought, oh, 269 00:25:55.240 --> 00:25:59.720 I'm safe on shore. Nothing's happened. He tries signaling the light again. 270 00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:04.079 No response. It was done with them, I think, is which 271 00:26:04.160 --> 00:26:11.880 is good for them. You know. The first time wasn't a good idea, 272 00:26:11.079 --> 00:26:18.079 right right, right, So the next day they wanted to tell someone, 273 00:26:18.279 --> 00:26:23.519 so they saw a park ranger and they report they will file a report 274 00:26:23.880 --> 00:26:29.920 with this park ranger who didn't seem the least bit interested and figured, four 275 00:26:29.960 --> 00:26:33.559 young guys, what are they smoking? What are they drinking? And he 276 00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:41.079 tells them, well, what they probably saw were just searchlights from a hardware 277 00:26:41.279 --> 00:26:48.759 store opening in Milanoket. Of course, in Maine that would be pronounced hodware 278 00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:56.079 Sta. And this hordware Sta happened to be seventy five miles away on the 279 00:26:56.079 --> 00:27:03.000 other side of the mountain. So just ridiculous, just ridiculous. But I 280 00:27:03.079 --> 00:27:08.839 found a little side note about that particular ranger. Two years later he quit 281 00:27:10.680 --> 00:27:15.599 because he had a very similar sighting, but at the time he was, 282 00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:23.400 of course quite skeptical. So they tried telling a few more rangers and no 283 00:27:22.880 --> 00:27:27.559 one. No one was interested. So they finished out the next ten days 284 00:27:27.599 --> 00:27:33.359 of their trip, went home, told some family and friends, got the 285 00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:37.440 same response, Yeah, okay, you know what were you guys on. 286 00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:44.839 Nope, nobody believed them. So after a while they just stopped talking. 287 00:27:44.960 --> 00:27:51.640 And I see this, hundreds and hundreds of times people have this incredible experience, 288 00:27:51.680 --> 00:27:56.440 life altering experience and nobody believes them, and they just keep it bottled 289 00:27:56.519 --> 00:28:03.240 up and don't want to talk to anybody. So years and years pass, 290 00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:11.799 they remember what they remembered this light somehow getting to shore again, nothing is 291 00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:21.680 connecting. So we go about ten or twelve years later, and and Jack 292 00:28:22.960 --> 00:28:26.359 says, excuse, excuse me, not Jack, Yes, Jack, trying 293 00:28:26.359 --> 00:28:30.759 to keep all these I'm confusing the twins even without seeing them, they are 294 00:28:30.799 --> 00:28:38.000 remarkably alike. But Jack said, I was starting to have nightmares, really 295 00:28:38.480 --> 00:28:45.119 terrible nightmares that I could not explain. I found myself in a very brightly 296 00:28:45.200 --> 00:28:49.039 lit room. I had no idea where I was or why I was there. 297 00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:55.039 To my left, I could see my brother Jim, Chuck Rack and 298 00:28:55.240 --> 00:29:00.240 Charlie Folts sitting on some type of bench and they were they were all naked. 299 00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:06.000 I was wondering why they weren't helping me, because I felt like I 300 00:29:06.079 --> 00:29:10.799 was in danger. And while I'm trying to figure this out, I noticed 301 00:29:10.839 --> 00:29:17.680 this figure or dark shadowy type figure emerging from this light, the bright light 302 00:29:17.759 --> 00:29:22.799 in front of me. I would wake up sweating and breathing heavily, and 303 00:29:22.039 --> 00:29:27.559 just in a state of terror and shock. So that's not a good recurring 304 00:29:27.680 --> 00:29:34.880 nightmare to have. That sounds like post traumatic stress disorder. Absolutely, And 305 00:29:36.079 --> 00:29:41.559 he's not telling anybody about this. Turns out, as you know, Mike, 306 00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:48.720 identical twins often share a lot of things we can't explain. Yes, 307 00:29:48.799 --> 00:29:56.279 well, guess who was having identical nightmares the same time twelve years later. 308 00:29:57.039 --> 00:30:02.640 And so his twins said, there were his dreams. There were always certain 309 00:30:02.720 --> 00:30:07.960 elements of the dream that were the same, some type of creature, being 310 00:30:07.119 --> 00:30:15.039 helpless, being violated, was a feeling I often woke up with and again 311 00:30:15.240 --> 00:30:22.680 a very common theme. People taken violated. They have vague recollections, but 312 00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:33.000 developed newphobias, are afraid to go out, their social interactions change. I 313 00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:40.680 believe it was Jim who started. Yes, Jim started padlocking his bedroom doors 314 00:30:40.720 --> 00:30:47.640 and windows even on hot days. And this is without fully recollecting. But 315 00:30:48.279 --> 00:30:52.720 he was so afraid, particularly at night, like you said, post post 316 00:30:52.759 --> 00:31:00.839 traumatic stress. And the dreams started getting more and more real. And what 317 00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:07.880 was weird with the both of them? They both in their dreams had Charlie 318 00:31:07.960 --> 00:31:11.880 Faults and Chuck Rack. Now the only time all four of them were ever 319 00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:19.880 together was on this camping trip. So you were a detective, right, 320 00:31:21.359 --> 00:31:23.960 you start putting two and two together. Here, what's the common denominator If 321 00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:29.279 we're both having these stam exact dreams with the same exact four of us. 322 00:31:29.920 --> 00:31:34.759 The only thing the common denominator is this trip twelve years earlier up in Ali 323 00:31:34.839 --> 00:31:37.920 Gash, So it's got to be connected. They knew they had this experience 324 00:31:37.960 --> 00:31:45.559 of the light, so right with this light they were paddling all their might 325 00:31:45.720 --> 00:31:53.559 to get away for and thought they had but probably not. So they decide 326 00:31:53.599 --> 00:32:01.359 to seek help and Jim gets in touch with Ray Fowler. You hardcore uphologists 327 00:32:01.480 --> 00:32:06.319 will immediately say, oh, yeah, Ray Fowler. At the time and 328 00:32:06.440 --> 00:32:12.440 still now, he was a famous UFO researcher and author. In nineteen seventy 329 00:32:12.519 --> 00:32:16.720 nine he had written The Andreas An Affair, which is a another remarkable case. 330 00:32:19.799 --> 00:32:24.799 He ends up writing a book about this in the nineties, but early 331 00:32:24.920 --> 00:32:30.960 nineties, I think it came out. But it turns out that Fowler in 332 00:32:30.160 --> 00:32:37.960 two thousand and two decided to write his autobiography and it was called UFO Testament, 333 00:32:38.599 --> 00:32:45.279 Anatomy of an Abductee, where he finally admits, yeah, I had 334 00:32:45.559 --> 00:32:53.359 a lot of researchers either subconsciously or consciously get into this because of their own 335 00:32:53.400 --> 00:33:04.359 experiences. So Fowler thinks that they should have hypnotic regression, which can be 336 00:33:04.400 --> 00:33:07.960 a disaster if you have the wrong person. Um, it can be a 337 00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:15.039 disaster if you really shouldn't remember, right. So we've we've talked about this 338 00:33:16.839 --> 00:33:22.319 in the past. Oh yeah, absolutely, And I like that when when 339 00:33:22.400 --> 00:33:29.559 Feller sets this up, he wants to make sure that as they are regressed, 340 00:33:30.079 --> 00:33:32.559 they don't have the opportunity to talk to one another, so that it's 341 00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:37.759 independent, so that it's not like I'm undergoing it and then I have a 342 00:33:37.839 --> 00:33:40.000 chance to talk to you about it, and then you're undergoing it. He 343 00:33:40.039 --> 00:33:45.079 seems to try to control for that level of potential influence. So at least 344 00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:51.519 it's the testimony coming out of the actual hypnosis there, you know, session 345 00:33:51.559 --> 00:33:54.599 itself. So I like that. Yeah, that's yeah, that's an excellent 346 00:33:54.640 --> 00:34:00.440 point. It's not like Jim is being regressed and his brothers sitting there watching 347 00:34:00.440 --> 00:34:04.880 it just then oh, yeah, what he said, right, Because then 348 00:34:04.519 --> 00:34:07.719 you can always then at least say there's a there's doubt, oh well he 349 00:34:07.760 --> 00:34:10.440 could have heard it. But if you at least control for that, it 350 00:34:10.840 --> 00:34:15.760 takes one more piece of criticism away from the case and bolsters your credibility a 351 00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:20.960 little bit. Yeah, I've I've done that with multiple witnesses, where you 352 00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:24.519 know, doing a sketch, go into separate rooms, do your sketch, 353 00:34:24.599 --> 00:34:28.559 don't you know, and then come back and show me. And you do 354 00:34:28.639 --> 00:34:32.280 that also with interviews, don't interview everybody at the same time, and police 355 00:34:32.280 --> 00:34:36.960 work one on one, detective work on don't same thing. You know, 356 00:34:37.239 --> 00:34:42.239 you don't interview every witness because in front of one another I mean that's again 357 00:34:42.440 --> 00:34:46.039 you you want to hear what someone saw or heard or you know, that's 358 00:34:46.079 --> 00:34:50.360 that's important, not to have that influenced. You know, you want to 359 00:34:50.360 --> 00:34:53.679 get that story firsthand before it's been contaminated, so to speak. Yeah, 360 00:34:53.719 --> 00:34:57.280 you do, you mean you don't get all the suspects into one room. 361 00:34:57.400 --> 00:35:06.639 Nope, no, no, Yeah. So the um Fowler suggests, uh, 362 00:35:06.679 --> 00:35:15.280 supposedly a very credible hypnotist, Tony Constantino, And I won't go I 363 00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:19.639 mean, I can go into great detail. We'll go into some detail, 364 00:35:20.119 --> 00:35:25.000 but basically they all remember the same thing. And I'll read some of their 365 00:35:25.119 --> 00:35:30.880 quotes, but the basic story all four recall and as you pointed out, 366 00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:38.639 Mike, independently without talking to one another. Um, they that glass tube, 367 00:35:39.039 --> 00:35:45.360 that Neon glass tube apparently sucked them right out of the canoe. And 368 00:35:46.039 --> 00:35:52.039 uh, Charlie did an excellent uh picture of that. They did a lot 369 00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:57.239 as being artists, they did a lot of artwork and sketches. If if 370 00:35:57.239 --> 00:36:04.119 you saw the um the post on announcing tonight's show, one of Charlie's pictures 371 00:36:04.199 --> 00:36:08.840 of them being sucked up into this craft. So they went on board a 372 00:36:08.960 --> 00:36:16.760 craft, forced to take off all their clothes, undergo frightening and invasive medical 373 00:36:16.880 --> 00:36:25.280 procedures by four human sized figures which I don't remember whether it was Jim or 374 00:36:25.440 --> 00:36:31.480 Jack described as being like a bug. And again, if you look up 375 00:36:31.519 --> 00:36:38.679 Alagash abduction, look up images, you can see these frightening bug like creatures 376 00:36:38.679 --> 00:36:45.760 with big Amini's like right in their right in their faces. So let me 377 00:36:47.159 --> 00:36:54.800 let me read some of their comments. These are actual excerpts from the actual 378 00:36:55.840 --> 00:37:01.920 sessions, so these are in their word words. Jim is so he's under 379 00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:07.960 hypnosis. He's saying they're there, they don't know what to do. I 380 00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:13.280 think they think I'm going to come after them. I feel like I want 381 00:37:13.280 --> 00:37:16.719 to. I feel like I want to the first one that comes near me, 382 00:37:16.920 --> 00:37:21.719 I'm going to throttle him. I don't like these things. I don't 383 00:37:21.800 --> 00:37:25.119 care where they came come from. They shouldn't be doing this to people. 384 00:37:28.239 --> 00:37:36.000 So an artist, no background in this, You're regressed. This is an 385 00:37:36.079 --> 00:37:42.639 interesting few lines to come up with. Yeah, and that's something that I 386 00:37:42.639 --> 00:37:45.679 would think people would be inclined to make up. I want to throttle him, 387 00:37:45.599 --> 00:37:50.000 Yeah, you don't. You don't usually hear people make that type of 388 00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:52.639 detail up. If they're gonna, you know, exaggerate something right. That 389 00:37:52.960 --> 00:38:00.119 to me is really indicative of what happened. Um Jack in his session says, 390 00:38:00.159 --> 00:38:06.639 they're right there. Their face is right in my face. I don't 391 00:38:06.639 --> 00:38:09.119 know why. I don't want to know. I don't want to know what 392 00:38:09.159 --> 00:38:15.079 they want. They're saying things in my head. They're saying things. Don't 393 00:38:15.119 --> 00:38:17.679 be afraid. They say, do what we say. Just do what we 394 00:38:17.840 --> 00:38:24.280 say. And that's another thing we hear over not they don't hear them physically, 395 00:38:24.360 --> 00:38:29.639 hear them talking in a voice. It's like a message in their head. 396 00:38:30.320 --> 00:38:37.719 Basically, you know you're stuck. Just stay there. Just the feeling 397 00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:44.840 of helplessness they all expressed it's awful. Charlie said, you know, being 398 00:38:44.880 --> 00:38:49.039 on board, it's like a doctor's office. I get that. It's cold, 399 00:38:49.199 --> 00:38:52.880 like a doctor's office is cold. They put the panel over your chest. 400 00:38:53.079 --> 00:38:57.760 Then they scrape your arms, your chest, your legs, your thighs. 401 00:38:58.360 --> 00:39:02.000 We shouldn't be here. I just I just keep thinking I want to 402 00:39:02.039 --> 00:39:08.760 be back in the canoe. Yeah. Yeah, And then they did things 403 00:39:08.800 --> 00:39:16.840 a lot more violating than that, and then Chuck says, I cease. 404 00:39:17.000 --> 00:39:23.760 He's saying he sees as he remembers seeing Charlie on the table. I see 405 00:39:23.840 --> 00:39:30.280 some sort of device on him. They've got this looks like a silvery it 406 00:39:30.320 --> 00:39:36.360 looks like it's got curves. It's almost like like it sucks something. He's 407 00:39:36.400 --> 00:39:42.679 got his head tipped way back. It's almost like he's in pain where we 408 00:39:42.880 --> 00:39:49.159 can't help him. All we can do is watch. So four men, 409 00:39:50.679 --> 00:39:58.000 as you said, different times different. You know, nobody compares notes all 410 00:39:58.039 --> 00:40:05.639 pretty frighteningly horrifyingly similar. Yeah, and um, and I think it's important 411 00:40:05.639 --> 00:40:12.920 to add the four men undertook polygraph examinations, and the results of those examinations 412 00:40:12.920 --> 00:40:20.239 were that they were telling the truth. So I mean, whether they believed 413 00:40:20.239 --> 00:40:22.320 it happened, if it didn't happen, they certainly believed it did, right, 414 00:40:22.639 --> 00:40:28.360 So that says a lot. Again, they're independent, they're passing polygraphs. 415 00:40:28.400 --> 00:40:31.039 You know, you start getting that preponderance of the evidence building up here. 416 00:40:32.559 --> 00:40:38.440 And also they the Fowler, as I mentioned, wrote a book about 417 00:40:38.480 --> 00:40:43.559 the Allagash abductions. Good luck getting one. It's like a fortune to try 418 00:40:43.599 --> 00:40:46.320 to buy a copy. Now it's I think it's out of print. May 419 00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:52.480 have been reprinted. I'll have to check. But their story was on Unsolved 420 00:40:52.519 --> 00:40:58.719 Mysteries. They were even on Joan Rivers show. I don't even remember Joan 421 00:40:58.840 --> 00:41:06.719 Rivers had to show, and I'm glad I don't remember that. But Jim, 422 00:41:06.840 --> 00:41:14.639 Jack and Charlie definitely changed their focus. Jack was, you know, 423 00:41:14.800 --> 00:41:21.719 was into all this artwork. He suddenly became obsessed with mathematics and hard science, 424 00:41:21.840 --> 00:41:28.960 particularly geometry, and went into the space industry. Very strange for someone 425 00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:35.400 who had dedicated their life to artwork. Jim, you know, he didn't 426 00:41:35.400 --> 00:41:40.400 give up artwork, but everything became mathematical, geometric. Jim suddenly became with 427 00:41:40.639 --> 00:41:47.199 ancient temples and the information they might contain. Okay, you know, normally 428 00:41:47.320 --> 00:41:53.000 you go on a canoeing trip in Maine, you don't refocus your career to 429 00:41:53.079 --> 00:42:00.159 age or your interests to ancient temples. And Charlie became a medical artist to 430 00:42:00.400 --> 00:42:08.440 a successful career reproducing artwork for medical colleges and things things like that. So 431 00:42:08.519 --> 00:42:15.599 it changed them and we can go you know, we could talk for hours 432 00:42:15.639 --> 00:42:20.800 on this, but they had an experience. They didn't remember it at the 433 00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:25.920 time. They all start to remember at the same time. They get regressed 434 00:42:27.239 --> 00:42:37.159 independently remember frighteningly similar situations, as you say, pass a polygraph and I 435 00:42:37.400 --> 00:42:44.639 if you have any doubts about this case, there's interviews available on YouTube. 436 00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:49.920 Check them out. Listen to how they talk, how they say it, 437 00:42:50.119 --> 00:42:55.599 what they have to say. There's a lot of information on this and they 438 00:42:55.159 --> 00:43:00.440 just they just seem credible. And the last thing I want want to mention, 439 00:43:00.519 --> 00:43:05.400 I know you want to bring up something else. Charlie just concluded, 440 00:43:06.079 --> 00:43:10.800 you know, his statements about the whole case, saying this happened. If 441 00:43:10.840 --> 00:43:15.639 you believe it, that's all right. If you don't believe it, I 442 00:43:15.679 --> 00:43:21.320 don't care. I don't care because it did. It did happen. So 443 00:43:22.679 --> 00:43:25.400 you know, this is a crazy field and you have people who will try 444 00:43:25.440 --> 00:43:30.599 to tear you down. You have people who will like worship you as a 445 00:43:30.639 --> 00:43:37.239 demigod because you had these experiences. So you know, he has the proper 446 00:43:37.320 --> 00:43:43.199 attitude. It happened. I've told my story, and so what what addendum 447 00:43:43.239 --> 00:43:45.199 do you have, Mike, Well, I'll just I just want to add 448 00:43:45.239 --> 00:43:49.679 to your excuse me. You know, the field is sort of like that. 449 00:43:49.719 --> 00:43:52.360 You know we think of the Bell curve, Well, the extremes. 450 00:43:52.400 --> 00:43:58.320 You have the extreme hardcore believers that you could tell them anything you experience and 451 00:43:58.320 --> 00:44:00.920 they're going to believe it. Yeah, it's that giant ants came down from 452 00:44:01.039 --> 00:44:05.239 Venus and took you up to their planet, and like you said, you're 453 00:44:05.239 --> 00:44:07.480 going to be a demigod. You have the people at the other end who, 454 00:44:07.559 --> 00:44:12.119 no matter what the story, if the evidence, the credible witnesses are 455 00:44:12.159 --> 00:44:15.159 going to dismiss it. It's the people in the middle, the researchers in 456 00:44:15.199 --> 00:44:21.519 that middle looking for the truth that are that's so important and stories like this 457 00:44:22.360 --> 00:44:25.480 that do fall into that. And you know, back in twenty sixteen, 458 00:44:25.559 --> 00:44:30.119 it was Chuck Rack who sort of came out and made claims that it was 459 00:44:30.119 --> 00:44:36.440 all made up, that they had seen lights, he didn't discount that, 460 00:44:36.519 --> 00:44:39.360 but that the abduction part was all made up. He alleged that there might 461 00:44:39.400 --> 00:44:45.199 have been some recreational drug use going on, which the other three men denied, 462 00:44:45.320 --> 00:44:49.000 and you know, the informations out there if people really want to read 463 00:44:49.000 --> 00:44:52.039 about it. I don't want to go into the personality issues, but there 464 00:44:52.119 --> 00:44:55.760 was a lot of allegations made on both sides. But it seems that maybe 465 00:44:55.840 --> 00:45:02.800 Chuck had some issues and got sort of ostracized from UFO community. Wasn't invited 466 00:45:02.840 --> 00:45:08.000 back to conferences, wasn't invited back to speak and things like that, whereas 467 00:45:08.000 --> 00:45:10.639 the other three men were. So I think there could have been an issue 468 00:45:10.639 --> 00:45:15.159 of jealousy. He certainly would have a reason to come out and make some 469 00:45:15.239 --> 00:45:19.880 claims that the whole story was made up. He claims it was to make 470 00:45:19.920 --> 00:45:23.920 money. I don't know how much money they really did make off of Yeah, 471 00:45:24.079 --> 00:45:28.559 they didn't. That's just it. You know, anybody, let me 472 00:45:28.639 --> 00:45:32.000 tell everybody right now, you do not get in this field for the money, 473 00:45:32.840 --> 00:45:37.960 huge, dude. Do it because you have a passion for the topic. 474 00:45:39.480 --> 00:45:44.840 You're not going to get rich on UFO books and lectures. Yeah. 475 00:45:44.880 --> 00:45:47.519 And when I was I was reading, I really was interested in what Chuck 476 00:45:47.559 --> 00:45:52.320 had to say. Chuck rack and you know, he tried to claim the 477 00:45:52.639 --> 00:45:57.199 bonfire, which is so important because of the lost time that oh you know, 478 00:45:57.360 --> 00:46:02.039 we really just used small pieces of wood so that it would have burned. 479 00:46:02.719 --> 00:46:05.760 But yet, like you said, you know, they're going out on 480 00:46:05.760 --> 00:46:07.679 a canoe at night. This is their only landmark. They are in the 481 00:46:07.719 --> 00:46:12.360 middle of the wilderness. There is nothing if they don't have that fire to 482 00:46:12.400 --> 00:46:15.840 get back to their campsite. They're not getting back to their campsite. They're 483 00:46:15.880 --> 00:46:20.639 spending the night in a canoe, and they better hope the next day they 484 00:46:20.679 --> 00:46:24.440 can figure out where their campsite was. So you know, the other men 485 00:46:24.519 --> 00:46:28.719 said, no, we used I think one described them as being ten and 486 00:46:28.719 --> 00:46:34.239 a half inch round logs to guarantee that this fire would continue to burn so 487 00:46:34.280 --> 00:46:37.800 that they could see it as a beacon. That's consistent, that makes sense. 488 00:46:38.480 --> 00:46:43.719 The other thing is just from a former police point of view, detective 489 00:46:43.719 --> 00:46:47.199 point of view, is it is very hard for one person to lie and 490 00:46:47.280 --> 00:46:52.719 keep their story straight. It is much harder for two, three or four 491 00:46:52.760 --> 00:46:59.800 people to lie and keep their story straight, all on the same story. 492 00:47:00.280 --> 00:47:04.079 That's very difficult. And Brian are in the control room there can tell you 493 00:47:04.159 --> 00:47:07.119 that's. You know, when people lie, they usually forget little details, 494 00:47:07.159 --> 00:47:10.960 they change things because it's this is a very detailed story. It's hard to 495 00:47:10.960 --> 00:47:15.559 remember everything, and you're certainly not getting three to four people to remember every 496 00:47:15.639 --> 00:47:23.760 lie. It's not to me, that's just not plausible. One person, 497 00:47:23.840 --> 00:47:27.679 sure, they can make up a story, and they can, you know, 498 00:47:28.639 --> 00:47:30.199 swear by anything. You know, just don't stand next on the bolt 499 00:47:30.239 --> 00:47:35.400 of lightning will come down. But you know, but for four people to 500 00:47:35.440 --> 00:47:37.920 do that, and even if there is a falling out, I really believe 501 00:47:37.840 --> 00:47:42.880 that Chuck probably did have the same experiences. It's just it's a personality issue. 502 00:47:42.920 --> 00:47:45.440 And again I encourage people to go online. There's a lot of resources 503 00:47:45.920 --> 00:47:49.400 they can read about it. There's videos about it. You can find the 504 00:47:49.440 --> 00:47:53.280 Unsolved Mysteries. Um, I couldn't find the Joan Rivers interview. Oh too 505 00:47:53.360 --> 00:47:55.480 bad. Look, it's got to be out there. I thought that'd be 506 00:47:55.639 --> 00:48:00.559 entertaining at least. Sure. Um, but I do remember when it was 507 00:48:00.559 --> 00:48:05.360 on Unsolved Mysteries, so I do remember watching that. But again, I 508 00:48:05.440 --> 00:48:08.079 encourage people to read about it. I think I tried looking for the books 509 00:48:08.079 --> 00:48:10.800 on Amazon, and like you said, whatever's on there were expensive. But 510 00:48:12.440 --> 00:48:15.360 I didn't spend a lot of time digging, but they were yea more than 511 00:48:15.400 --> 00:48:21.119 I was going to pay. Yeah, and you can go you can go 512 00:48:21.239 --> 00:48:24.840 to like I said, YouTube or other resources and watch there. They've done 513 00:48:24.840 --> 00:48:29.960 a lot of interviews. Listen to them in their own words and make up 514 00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:31.880 your own mind. I'm not telling anybody, oh my god, they got 515 00:48:31.880 --> 00:48:37.960 abducted, but boy, they telled a compelling story and like you said four 516 00:48:37.079 --> 00:48:51.320 of them, and it's just very consistent with what so many people have experienced 517 00:48:51.360 --> 00:49:00.480 over the years. So planning a canoe trip anytime soon, I'm gonna scrap 518 00:49:00.519 --> 00:49:04.079 any idea of buying a canoe. I was gonna buy a kayak. I 519 00:49:04.119 --> 00:49:12.199 think I'm scrapping that idea. Um yeah, I just think. Um I'm 520 00:49:12.239 --> 00:49:15.199 trying to I've been out on a lake at night in a boat when it's 521 00:49:15.280 --> 00:49:17.320 dark and it's again it's unnerving. Can you imagine being trapped out there, 522 00:49:19.280 --> 00:49:22.320 having this this encounter. You have nowhere to go, Like you said earlier, 523 00:49:22.320 --> 00:49:24.360 you're on land. You could try to run. You may not get 524 00:49:24.400 --> 00:49:29.599 away, but at least you have that sense of control, have an option. 525 00:49:29.800 --> 00:49:34.119 You're in a canoe. Was it a two feet wide? Where are 526 00:49:34.159 --> 00:49:36.320 you gonna go? You're gonna run from one end of the canoe to the 527 00:49:36.320 --> 00:49:39.320 other. It's gonna look like a cartoon. You know, You're you're stuck 528 00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:45.599 there, You're stuck. And that had to be terrifying because even if they 529 00:49:45.639 --> 00:49:49.760 didn't remember that at the time, that those dreams what they're coming back. 530 00:49:49.800 --> 00:49:55.599 I mean that that helplessness, that sense of being victimized and being violated I 531 00:49:55.599 --> 00:50:00.840 mean I can't imagine, Yeah, I really can't. And then to go 532 00:50:00.880 --> 00:50:05.079 about the rest of the trip, you know, and yeah again, how 533 00:50:05.119 --> 00:50:07.639 often, Like we talked about a lot of these people that have had encounters 534 00:50:07.639 --> 00:50:15.239 that contact ease, it's this big life altering experience, but yet initially it's 535 00:50:15.280 --> 00:50:19.039 like, okay, well, life just going on. Yeah. I heard 536 00:50:19.719 --> 00:50:27.079 a witness on Martin Willis's podcast UFO, and he said they were on some 537 00:50:27.159 --> 00:50:35.760 highway in Massachusetts not all that long ago, and this massive craft hovering over 538 00:50:35.840 --> 00:50:43.559 the highway, and this whole long line of cars saw it and just again 539 00:50:43.679 --> 00:50:49.440 the most remarkable thing they'd ever seen in their life. And the craft goes 540 00:50:49.480 --> 00:50:54.079 away and people start driving away like nothing happened, but all of them, 541 00:50:54.119 --> 00:51:00.519 I don't remember how many people. It was many many people. They all, 542 00:51:00.960 --> 00:51:05.679 for some reason all pulled off at the next exit and went, I 543 00:51:05.719 --> 00:51:09.440 think to friendlies to get ice cream. Who was like all the way it 544 00:51:09.679 --> 00:51:14.599 was, nobody talked to anybody, but like all these people in all these 545 00:51:14.639 --> 00:51:20.679 cars suddenly pull off and go get ice cream, Like, oh, did 546 00:51:20.719 --> 00:51:25.199 you happen to see that, didn't you? And yes, yeah, yeah, 547 00:51:25.280 --> 00:51:29.920 we just saw this massive alien craft hovering over all boy, I could 548 00:51:29.920 --> 00:51:37.760 go from me and Chip. Yeah. So strange things happen in in these 549 00:51:37.800 --> 00:51:44.880 cases. That's I think the one thing we can be certain of. Um, 550 00:51:45.360 --> 00:51:51.400 things out of the ordinary and uncharacteristic go on, Yes, absolutely, 551 00:51:52.079 --> 00:51:53.440 um and what we always say, keep your eyes to the sky. You 552 00:51:53.480 --> 00:51:58.440 never know, you know, Yes, just I don't want to go. 553 00:51:58.679 --> 00:52:01.320 I don't want to go up on their ship. Taken, leave me alone. 554 00:52:02.079 --> 00:52:07.760 A lot a great specimen to begin with you. Okay, it's younger 555 00:52:07.800 --> 00:52:12.320 and much better shape than me. Yeah, we should wear t shirts with 556 00:52:12.519 --> 00:52:16.719 arrows take. Yeah, they don't want me. In fact, I think 557 00:52:16.719 --> 00:52:22.880 I was unabducted, actually unabducted. You were thrown back, Yeah, threw 558 00:52:22.920 --> 00:52:28.599 me back, catch and release, get out of here. Ah. So 559 00:52:28.679 --> 00:52:37.239 that is our Alagash case. We have lots of more interesting cases to cover 560 00:52:37.360 --> 00:52:44.400 and again love getting letters, emails, whatever, people have suggestions, let 561 00:52:44.519 --> 00:52:49.719 us know. So Mike take us out in your own inimitable style. Yeah. 562 00:52:49.719 --> 00:52:52.800 So again, thank you everybody for joining us on Hudson River Radio. 563 00:52:53.079 --> 00:52:58.000 We had many people on our stream chat following along, so thank you on 564 00:52:58.119 --> 00:53:00.920 Twitch. Thank you Brian and the control room and everybody else out there. 565 00:53:00.920 --> 00:53:06.440 Whether you're in the Hudson Valley or somewhere beyond. Thank you for joining us, 566 00:53:06.440 --> 00:53:15.519 and remember keep your eyes to the sky. Hudson River Radio dot com 567 00:53:15.519 --> 00:53:16.519 a favorite among shut ins and dogs.