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Smallly. Yes it is. Thank you so much for joining me today.
I'm on the road still, so this is gonna sound a little different than
most podcasts I put out. Finally finished up. I think what's been I
don't know. One thousand weeks on the road feels like I got to meet
a lot of you and interact with a lot of people and we had some
great comedy shows. I had an absolute blast, and I'm ready to get
back home, but I'm still in New York as of this moment, and
I wanted to go ahead and record this because I knew that episode six six
' six was coming up, and I've thought about this for over a year.
I'm like, what am I gonna do for episode six sixty six?
Is it even that big of a deal to anybody else? And I finally
decided, I think, I think it would be perfect to have someone on
the show for episode six sixty six that is a Satanist, and I happen
to know one. So for any of you who have commentary on this show,
want to be signed up for my text list, want to comment or
respond to me, or come out to a comedy show, send a text
to four two four three zero six zero seven nine eight. That's four two
four three zero six zero seven nine to eight. Today's guest is not only
a fan of the show and patron, but also a Satanist. Join me
in welcoming Tabitha to the podcast. Hello Tabitha, Hello David, Hail satan
Okay, let's get into it then, So you're you're an active member of
TST. That's correct, yes, but you're not a spokesperson for TST.
Absolutely, I am not an official spokesperson. I am not here to represent
the organization. But I'm absolutely happy to talk to you about my beliefs and
my interpretation of what it is that we do. Yeah, that's that's that's
kind of the thing. And you know, I mentioned to a few people
in my family that I was thinking about doing this for episode six sixty six,
and they were like, I said, I think I'll talk to a
Satanist. And immediately it was like, oh, animal sacrifice. I'm like,
that's in the Bible, not you know, these ideas that our society
thinks that that it is to be a Satanist, it seems that most of
them come from like Christian lore or early Judaism. Like it seems that when
you know, a ram caught in the thicket and I believe it's is a
genesis, uh, and during the Testing of Abraham, Like there's so much
animal sacrifice in in Exodus, during the Passover, it's you know, sacrifice
a lamb and then wipe the blood on the post outside. It's all animal
sacrifice. So it's it's crazy to me that all of these Christians who lean
into these things as holy and godly, all these traditions, that they go,
oh, it's a miracle, it's the passover, it's this, it's
this, And then they look at Satanists and go animal sacrifice. So no,
no, no, no, that would be you that that you know
supported all that stuff. Why do you think there's that confusion? That's a
great question. I know that for mind of things, it's it's a fun
thing to play with. I don't think anywhere in the Bible anyone sacrifices animals.
To say, in you're right, anytime it comes up, it's a
sacrifice to God, especially that whole human sacrifice thing, right, right,
the worship of a human sacrifice. Right. But we're the crazy ones,
yeah, I mean Christians are literally wearing crosses around their neck that is the
symbol of a human blood sacrifice. And then they're like gross animal sacrifice and
the Satanic Temple or whatever. So what is the Satanic Temple and what does
it actually stand for? So the Satanic Temple is a branch of Satanism.
Uh, Satanism was around before TST. What stands apart in TST? From
other Satanists such as the Church of Satan is probably our tenants, which sounds
a lot like humanism when you hear them, and also that we do consider
ourselves a religion, a religion without supernatural belief, but a religion nonetheless.
So okay, So this is probably the biggest question I wanted to get out
to the public because I've heard conflicting answers on it, and I'm gonna be
careful how I asked the question, because I know it's you and your beliefs
versus what TST. I guess the congregation would actually call it, So you
can answer either way you're comfortable answering. Is there a generic belief in an
actual deity Satan in your perspective, No, and I don't think that you
would hear anyone say differently. I think there's a very tiny percentage of Satanists
outside of TST who might actually believe in a real Satan. But TST is
a religion without supernatural belief. Satan is a symbol, it's a metaphor.
It's fun to play with because of all of the misconceptions out there. So,
for example, you mentioned blood sacrifice, We're doing a blood drive right
now, and we're calling it a blood sacrifice, and it's just we are,
yes, but for a good cause. And again it's it's not an
actual sacrifice like you think with a RAM, but we're playing with that terminology.
Yeah, so it's symbolic. So you don't think there's any one within
the organization that you know of that actually believes or worships in actual satan.
I can't speak for everyone, but I would say that a belief in a
supernatural being would be against the tenants. Gotcha. I want to get into
those tenants in a second. But what I've noticed that's very helpful from from
the activist side of things is, you know, you'll have some local city
council want to throw up, you know, the Ten Commandments. And I
was talking about this with my mom when I was in Texas. I was
like, I was explaining kind of the idea behind it, and I was
like, you know, I was like, oh cool. Tony Rock just
replied and said he can do my show December fourth. That is fantastic.
So yeah, he'll be at the Hollywood and probe with me December fourth.
Chris Rock's brother Tony Rock. Okay, anyway, so I was explaining to
my mom. I was like, you know how these these local city councils
will want to put up like the Ten Commandments or something, and she's like
yeah, And I said, you know that's not fair. You know,
so that's that's trying to treat one religion with more respect than the others.
And my mom was like, yeah, I could see that, Like that's
not okay, I'm all right. Cool, she understood that. And I
was like, so if you just go in there and say I don't like
that it sounds like you hate Christianity as opposed to this other group, that
will be like, oh cool, yeah, keep your Ten Commandments up.
Also, here's a statue of bethel met what is it, Befelman And then
she's like what's that? And I looked it up and showed her. She
was like oh. I was like, so instead, you know, this
organization will come in and say we want to put our thing up too,
and it's like this seven foot ridiculous statue to kind of prove the point that
maybe you shouldn't maybe we share a government, and that government shouldn't take sides,
and that if there are people in this city council or within the city
that's paying taxes. Maybe we should all just share it and keep religion out
of it. And she was like, no, I get that. That
makes sense. I was like, well, that's what the Satanic temple does
as far as I know. But then I was worried about having you on
and saying out loud, I don't really worship a Satan. Does that show
all the cards and say, aha, this isn't real because you don't actually
believe in a Satan. Does that take some power away from the religious belief?
No, And that is because legally we have been recognized as a religion
without having to say we believe in a supernatural deity. I think there is
a court case that also considered secular humanism a form of religion, so that
people have a right the same way a church would have their rights to practice
their religion. So do secular humanists and so do Satanists. So under the
law, a belief in a deity is not required to be legally recognized as
a religion. So us openly saying that takes no power away from the political
expediency of ex athlete what you just described that is definitely a piece to tst
it's not the entire picture, but it is a part of why it exists.
So why not just secular humanism, why embrace Satan? I think for
partly for the reason that you mentioned the activism. It has a shock value
that can be very effective. You mentioned the statue going up of bopamet.
It freaks people out and doing that it gets attention, gets national headline news
in order to make a point about separation of church and state. There's also
an after school Satan Club which is a project, and it is not that
tst again my understanding, it's not that they want to have after school clubs
where Satanism is being promoted. That is not the intent. The intent is
there are Christian after school clubs who are intentionally going after young children when their
parents aren't around, to promote their Christian beliefs, and we view that as
a violation of separation of church and state. And so by using the symbolism
of Satan in our after school Satan club again shock value. You want to
have a what club in a school with kids, which is what they should
be saying about the Christian exactly exactly. And so it's either if your Christian
club gets to exist, then you also have to make room for our after
school Satan club or get rid of both, and that would be fine with
us. Actually that's probably what you would rather have, absolutely exactly. I
love it. It's such a unique angle to address these things, and it
also calls into calls to the table this idea that each religion seems to be
for themselves right. Each religion says, I want mine to be promoted,
I want mine to be special, or in some cases, I want mine
to be you will convert to mind by force or death, like you will
be mine. I want mine to win. And when people first hear about
atheists, they typically think we're immoral, we're terrible people, we're bad,
and we are against whatever religion they are, because being in a religion and
thinking your religion is perfect, it's kind of inherently narcissistic and arrogant to be
like. But me and my little group over here that was born in this
timeframe, on this part of the globe, we just so happen to have
it right, and everyone else is wrong and probably going to hell. And
I don't know why bad things happen terrible people, But when I pray to
find my car Keys, God shows me I have special access to the creator
of the universe. It's inherently arrogant. And so what they don't know is
that most atheists are actually in favor of religious equality. We are totally fine
with you practicing whatever belief you want to practice at home, but we don't
think any religion should be pushed by any government entity at all, and so
we want everyone to be equally either ignored or accepted, preferably ignored, you
know what I mean. Your religion should be something in your home, and
a lot of Christians don't realize that until you get to have that conversation.
And that's why I've typically tried on this show to be more respectful, because
I want them to feel safe long enough to have the nuance part of the
discussion, because if they just think that you're evil, they'll stay away from
that. Have you found that since you've mentioned that you were Satanist or joined
TST that it's hard to engage with someone if you say I'm a Satanist.
I feel like they'd be faster walk away from a Satanist then an atheist.
Uh yeah, I think the word atheist. People have a typical reaction to
that of what, but you're such a good person. I've definitely heard that
one, and then you add Satanists and it's like, what, but you're
such a good person. But I would say that living in New York City,
that experience does not happen nearly as often. I feel immediately the need
to clarify what it means to be a Satanist as soon as I tell someone
just so you know, we don't actually believe in Satan. You understand that
right before I say anything else, because I know it could potentially turn someone
off or scare them away. So I try to combat that by immediately putting
that out there. And honestly, I have not one time had someone say,
oh, thank you for telling me I didn't know that. Everyone says,
well, yeah, obviously so, and maybe that's because I'm in my
New York City Yeah, bubble, but exactly exactly. Yeah, So let's
talk about what you actually do believe. You know, my friend Todd Steefele,
who is, you know, given to tons of organizations out there,
had a whole talk he gave that's on YouTube called I Think it's we believe
or I believe or what we believe something along those lines. Just just look
for Todd Steefele We believe and I think you'll you'll find it, and he
talks about all the positive things that atheists do believe in, because one very
common thing we get is, oh, you believe in nothing. No,
that's not at all what this is. I guess depending on what you're talking
about, what happens when you die type situation, but or what's the afterlife,
things like that. But there's a lot of stuff we do believe,
Like you mentioned humanism, specifically secular humanism. But when it comes to the
Satanic Temple, you have tenants, things that you actually believe. Let's see
if I can get on board with them. I've never written them. I
know that they exist, I've I've seen I think I've skimmed them for a
podcast before, but I've never really taken a deep look to go. Let
me see if I acknowledge all these and believe it. So let's let's go.
How many are there? There are seven fundamental tenants. This is one
of the things that does allow us to be classified as a religion because it's
it's kind of code creed. But for me personally, I view them more
as descriptive. It wasn't that I joined TST and now all of a sudden
I had these seven rules that I needed to live my life by. But
rather I read these seven tenants and I was like, oh my god,
that's me. Gotcha. Yes, so they're descriptive as to where I don't.
I don't know that Christians do that with a ten commandment, right,
No, Like, oh yeah, that's totally how I live my life.
All right, let's hear them, all right? So the first tenant is
one should strive to act with compassion and empathy toward all creatures in accordance with
reason. Does that require you to be vegan? I can see already a
little bit, because how could you eat animals? And I mean I personally
feel like, as a as an omnivore myself former vegan, that I have
compassion toward animals. But a vegan would look at me and say, you
have some compassion towards some animals, some you don't give a damn about,
and they would have an argument. I think, so, how do you
interpret that and how does that fit into your lifestyle? I would say that
I'm definitely an omnivore, but I how are animals treated before and during the
process of killing them. For human yourself to say slaughter. And then also
there's in accordance with reason is a part of that too, And I would
say, you know, human beings evolved to eat a variety of foods,
including meat and other animals. We don't really have a lot of long term
research on the effects of veganism, so I wouldn't necessarily say that this requires
me to be vegan now, because I don't personally think that would accord with
reason, especially in places in the world where it's just not an option.
I think people should recognize that, like, if you have the option to
go vegan here in the United States, there's a certain amount of privilege with
access to enough nutrients and vegan foods to be able to do that. Other
parts of the world, you're gonna eat what you could eat. Yeah,
And in my situation, just to take a side note, just because this
podcast is personal for me and people get to know me through this podcast,
I went vegan for just a little over a year and I kept getting sick,
I kept getting dizzy, light headed, I was breaking out. I
couldn't figure out what was going on. I was feeling a tightness in my
throat, and I couldn't I couldn't figure it out. So I took a
test and found out I have twenty nine food sensitivities that are bordering on allergic
reactions, and most of them are what you would consider healthy vegan foods.
Bananas, pineapple, kale, hummus, chickpea, like a lot of the
stuff that when you're like, I'm gonna have a vegan smoothie, I can't
have it most of the time. Even if like I can do like peanuts
and peanut butter, but usually it's a peanut butter banana smoothie. I can't
have the banana. I would have like a kale smoothie, and instead of
ice, they would sweeten it with pineapple chunks. I can't have the pineapple.
And so there's I have this list of twenty nine things that I'm not
supposed to have, including some non vegan stuff, but the vast majority of
things on my list are part of vegan diets, including vanilla. Vanilla is
like the number one thing I can't have. Wow, And every vegan dessert
I ever found was packed full of vanilla. And they don't even have to
list vanilla in the ingredients. They can literally just say natural flavors. So
sometimes natural flavors includes vanilla, sometimes it doesn't. So I constantly find myself
lightheaded, breaking out, getting blotchy skin, being bloated, having stomach problems,
And I'm just like, but you know what, if I eat brisket
or barbecue, I never have that problem. So unfortunately for me, it
wasn't the best thing. Sure, there's a way I could probably do it
that's even more restrictive, And now I've got veganism on top of twenty nine
food restrictions, and it was I became less healthy, I felt terrible all
the time, and it wasn't good for me. So that's where the within
logic and reason comes into play. Absolutely, and it would not be compassionate
or empathetic to you to force you to eat that kind of a diet that's
not good for yours. And it also just has creatures, which includes human
beings. Absolutely does the word creature imply creation? Hm hmm, I'm gonna
say, no, I don't have I don't know. You're throwing me off
of this one day, all right, maybe they need to update that.
We'll address that. Creatures I mean, I would have to go and look
at the entomology of the word to see where it came from, and probably
there is some connection there, But that doesn't mean that that is how we
interpret the word now, because meanings of words change over time, even if
there was some connection in the origin of those words. Gotcha. Okay,
what's the next one? Number two? The struggle for justice is an ongoing
and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions. Oh. I love
that justice over laws because laws are not always just, not always just.
And so many people connect those two. They say, no, that's the
law, so that's it, But that doesn't mean it's just. It means
it was decided previously that that was best for someone, but not necessarily for
everyone. Absolutely. Wow mm hm and again yeah, thinking about it being
descriptive. I didn't see this and then start thinking to myself, Okay,
I have to start fighting for justice now. No, I was already doing
that. I consider, you know, in my work as a teacher.
Every day I'm working towards the fight for justice and equality. So I saw
this and I was like, yes, absolutely, that's me. All right,
what's the next one? Three? This is a big one for me,
probably my favorite. One's body is inviolable, subject to one's own will
alone. Okay, so that would mean your pro choice right. Yes,
I'm wearing a shirt that says I had an abortion right now. Yeah,
and you are also you would apply that to the vaccine as well, saying
that people shouldn't be forced to get them. Oh, I would say at
that point it when it's a public health concern, then it's not just your
body at that point, like you could potentially be affecting other exactly the pro
life argument. Though it's not just your body, it's a it's a potential
human life in there that you're affected. But the the embryo is reliant on
the woman's body, so that's different than someone who exists out side of a
body. I just I could never I think a private company could have the
ability to say if you're not vaccinated, you're not allowed to come, just
like I think. But if a private company says, if you have an
abortion, I'm going to fire you, should we support that. A private
company saying that, I don't see how that would be any of their business.
But you're saying, because if they're a private company, they can choose.
I don't know, Like there are private religious organizations, for example,
that will say, you know, if you have to sign a statement of
faith in order to join, and if you sign up for that organization,
that's between you and that organization, and that's fine, and you agree to
live according to their tenants, right, and if their tenants is you have
to believe in order to be a part of this, then you agree to
that. And then if you stop believing, they have the right to remove
you. So I think in some instances, a private company could say,
well, yeah, we are a Christian. Let's say let's say there was
a Christian family organization that talked about the traditional family, and then the director
is a woman and she has an abortion that goes against their views, would
they have the right to terminate her? I suppose so. I guess it
would depend on whether if it's a private company that has no funding from the
government, that's a totally separate issue. I'm not sure how the laws work
with that. To be honest, I know that if it is the government,
the government cannot respect one's religion over another, so they wouldn't be able
to fire someone because you know, well, I'm a Christian and it goes
against my belief that you had an abortion, So you're fired. I don't
know how that works in private companies. Can we go back to the vaccine
thing, because I just wanted to mention that I don't I don't think it
would be okay to hold you down and force you to take a vaccine.
That would be a violation of your body and your own will. Exactly right.
However, things like requiring them for public school. If you decide you're
not going to vaccinate your child, that is technically your choice, but you're
also choosing then not to enroll your child in public schools because now your child
could potentially pass on things like polio, which has been found back in the
water, outbreaks of measles, you know, things like that that we thought
were Yeah, so that's that was where I was going with this exactly,
is that you can have the freedom right. I don't want the government to
mandate the vaccine, but with your freedom of choice comes consequences exactly, exactly
perfect, all right, Yeah, I love that. I love that tenant.
Yeah. And for me, also, the reason this one is so
important is because of my my stance on being pro choice and Also, I
just feel very strongly that my body is my own and no one has a
say and what I do with it. So I extend this to my romantic
life as well. And again this is personal interpretation. By no means does
that mean that everyone in test views it in that way. But for me,
personally, no one has a say on what happens with my body.
I love that what's next, what's next for the freedoms of others should be
respected, including the freedom to offend to willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms
of another is to forego one's own. Yeah, this is this is This
goes back to me saying we have to protect the rights of people to disagree
with us. That's necessary and what should be a representative democracy, we have
to have alternate viewpoints being heard. Yeah. But here's I I want to
I want to push on this one a little because I've I've come to my
own sort of crossroads with Years ago, it was one hundred percent free speech,
one hundred do whatever you want to do, And here lately I've been
like okay with with Parlor and truth Social and Fox News and Newsmax and Facebook
groups that have started about me personally, things that that there are. There
are entire groups on Facebook who hate me for things I've literally never said or
believed, but they've said that I said them, and they got enough people
to believe that that's my view. And I've received death threats over them,
over overviews that I don't hold. And so free speech is one thing,
but doing what people in those groups do, accusing me of things I've never
done or said, accusing me of views I don't hold. Fox News flat
out lying or just removing obvious truths from a story to make it seem shady,
the way Tucker Carlson would go, Is this an issue maybe we should
look into? This is the transgender community causing the wrath of God to come
down upon us? You know, just dumb shit like that that stir people
up, and the Newsmax just flat out putting false information out there. Fox
News now being sued for putting false information out there about election fraud. They
lost it, But do you think everyone who believed it now understands that they
lost the case. They're not reporting that they lost it. They're not doing
their own reporting that they had to pay that money out So here lately,
I guess I say. Lately, over the last you know, eighteen to
twenty four months, I've been like, have we he'd gone too far with
the free speech? Have we pushed so far that people? I mean,
you look at some of the things Donald Trump says. Just about every time
he says something like this, something really happens in real life. He railed
against Nancy Pelosi, called her every name in the book, said she was
a poison and a cancer on society, and then a man breaks into her
home and beats her husband with a hammer over the head. Trump would talk
about at his rallies, boy, back in my day, you could really
rough them up, and then started saying, I'll pay your legal fees.
And then sure enough people start being physically assaulted at his rallies for disagreeing.
They're being punched on the way out. We had recently a guy was shot
in front of the White House. We're trying to drive his car into the
White House. Secret Service had to open fire on a man recently who was
the Secret Service was protecting Joe Biden's granddaughter and they had to shoot at a
guy and the guy got away. Because these attacks, when Trump talks like
this, you know, I was surprised he got away with that. When
he said about Hillary Clinton, he said maybe the Second Amendment people will take
care of her. I mean, how bone chilling is that? Right?
So, and then of course his rhetoric leading up to the certification of the
election on January sixth clearly caused an issue and people to become violent. So
free speech has you know, we've really pushed the limits of what's free speech.
Is when people start acting violently as a result of free speech, we
might need to check some of these balances, is what I'm saying. I
think that is what is happening right now. You mentioned, you know O'donald
Trump being on trial for instigating the January sixth insurrection. That is what that
is. It is a check in balance on that. Hopefully it is successful.
The Fox News being sued for by the company that created the uh yes,
they made the machines, right, the voting machines, and they won
that lawsuit. Also, things like libel right, isn't that isn't that protection
against someone slandering your name using things that are not true? So there are
we say we have free speech, but there are there are limits to that.
And you know, the tenet is is freedom to offend, not freedom
to say things that are going to cause harm. But I fully agree with
you that there's their speech and their speech that causes people to actions that commit
harm. And in my view that is that takes precedence. If what you're
saying is causing violence and you're actually hurting people, then that should be The
thing is we don't know that it's going to do it until it happens.
Yeah, Like I could get on this podcast and say Donald Trump is a
poison against America. Yeah, yeah, and nothing could happen. Donald Trump
could say David C. Smalley's podcast and Dogma Debate is literally stealing souls and
causing people to get abortions, and someone could put a bullet in my head
thinking they're doing God's work. So and then after I die, they go,
oh, maybe Trump shouldn't have said that, or they go, no,
Trump can say whatever he wants. He's allowed to call David C.
Smallly a poison. But this guy who acted wasn't mentally well or wasn't emotionally
regulated. So it's not Trump's fault that this happened. He had no problem
getting a gun, right, which is a whole other issue. What's the
next one? Next one, beliefs should conform to one's best scientific understanding of
the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one's
beliefs. That's perfect. That's just avoiding confirmation bias. Yes, and actually
looking at reality. Have no pushback on that. That's perfect love all right.
Six people are fallible. If one makes a mistake, one should do
one's best to rectify it and resolve any harm that might have been caused.
I like that be a good person, be a good person, but also
be accepting of people who make mistakes. Yep. And I think this is
something our community really needs to learn, Yes, because we are so quick
to destroy someone and throw them away forever when they make a mistake, and
it's like there's no path to redemption ever if you make the slightest mistakes.
It's almost like the the iin Rand situation of just narrowing down and getting a
smaller and smaller group every time you meet, because you're just searching for that
perfect activist or the perfect atheist or the perfect satanist, to the point that,
oh, she doesn't like this kind of music, or she doesn't,
you know, so believe she's not vegan or she is vegan, and she
doesn't get this, and we just whittle it down to where it's basically just
two of us going all right, which one of us is better? You
know? And in the search for the perfect activists, you're gonna wiew yourselves
down to a group that is basically ineffective at getting anything done because all you
do is eat your own tail. And I gave a talk one time called
eating our Own that's out there on I think Seth Andrews, the Thinking Atheist
YouTube channel that's called eating our Own I believe, and it talks about how
we were so quick to just try to destroy Richard Dawkins when he said something
about down syndrome, and destroy Sam Harris when he had questions about Black Lives
Matter, and you know, stuff that I disagreed with Sam on and did
a whole podcast responding to Sam, and even emailed Sam and ask him to
come on the show to discuss it. Still, I don't think we should
throw people away for these types of things. We say we want to grow,
we say we're fine with me wrong, we say these things, but
then when someone says you're wrong. You're so terrified to openly admit that you
were wrong, because you see what happens to people in this community when they
do that. You get eaten alive and destroyed and everything goes away, and
we're like vicious. Uh Like it's like it's like piranha on meat. It's
just and there's something about there's a certain layer of the atheist community that thrives
on destroying other people. And it's so cringey to me. That's not humanism,
that's not redemption, it's not progress for humanity. It's just disgusting.
And so I think this tenant right here is something that a lot of really
strong activists could embrace, and I think the community would be better for it,
absolutely recognizing that people have both good and bad in them. Sometimes we
fuck. I'm sorry, okay, sometimes we mess up. That's and be
willing to give someone you and I forgive you. Oh, thank you,
David. You should be a Satanist. I mean I do, I guess
I do have a question. At generally speaking, I am also disgusted by
an anti cancel culture. It's toxic in a lot of ways. On the
other hand, I do wonder what the line is where you no longer want
to be associated because something they have said or done is so reprehensible. And
maybe it's if they are not acknowledging it themselves, they're not making an attempt
to do better, offering them that chance to do better. But then if
they don't take it, I mean, at what point? I mean?
I feel like I gave Richard Dawkins the benefit of a doubt for a long
time, and recently some of the stuff that he has said about transgender people
makes me almost sick to my stomach. I haven't seen that. Okay,
I haven't seen the newest updates of what he's up to recently. Yeah,
he is a seventy something year old man, white man in the UK,
so we have to take into consideration. There's there's gonna be some some of
that cultural bias perhaps, But I haven't seen what he said. I'm open
to seeing it. In fact, I would have him on the show to
discuss it and do some research. I will, I'll look up what he
said. But like one example I would say, for you know, not
even in our community, just in society, would be Louis c k the
comedian. He did some stupid shit. He was on the road, he
was doing comedy, and he was around some women. And there's varying,
there are different variations of the story, but the points are that he his
kink was to masturbate in front of women. He liked to be watched,
and so he would ask these women consent. As far as he knew,
he was asking for consent, and they would say sure, and then he
would do it, and then they were grossed out by it, or later
said that they were they felt forced or coerced to partake. Roughly ten years
later, the women started speaking out and saying this made me really uncomfortable,
this was really inappropriate. And then he immediately wrote kind of this op ed
that was like, I am so sorry. At the time, I thought
I was asking for consent. Now I understand I was a headlining comedian.
You guys were opening for me. I had power that I didn't really understand
or realize, and I shouldn't have done that, and I'm sorry. He
immediately apologized for it. Every special he had ever done was removed from Netflix
and their partners. His TV show he was working on was removed, his
tours were canceled. A movie he was working on was deleted and canceled.
All the funding was just gone, literally lost everything. And I'm like,
for someone who did those things ten years prior and then immediately apologized to lose
everything and is still like he still can't get a special on Netflix or everything
else, he has to do everything completely. I just go, what's the
if someone today were to go, oh, this person said a thing,
what's the incentive for them to publicly apologize versus deny it and call everybody a
liar? Because when you look at what Louis c K did by immediately apologizing,
taking accountability and trying to do the right thing and acknowledging any the way
he acknowledged it was really well worded as well. He was like, he
said what he did wrong, he said what his mindset was at the time,
not an excuse, and said I should have done better, and I
apologize, it will never happen again. And still was just absolutely destroyed.
And there are comics today that I know that I'm friends with, that I
love and respect, that will hear me say that and probably never talk to
me again because they're like, oh, you're fine with what Louie did.
No, Louie's not even fine with what Louie did. That's the point of
this common station. Is there any path or redemption? And if someone were
to accuse some other big star today of something, they look at Louie's path
and go, well, I'm certainly not going to apologize and admit it because
that doesn't fucking work. So the path is to go they're all liars.
They're all liars, whether it's true or not, and so we need to
embrace the idea. You know, of course there are people who go too
far, but we're all going to have different limits, right, And when
you were mentioning it, you said something very interesting. You said, you
may want to distance yourself. Well, that's different. Saying I don't want
to be a fan of Louise anymore is perfectly fine. Saying I refuse to
watch his shows because of what he did perfectly fine. No one, including
Louis, would ever say you should be forced to watch my stuff. But
to actively campaign to have him destroyed and his entire career taken down from all
of these platforms is a different layer of activism. You're actively trying to take
someone down because of mistakes they made, and the same is true for our
groups, our individual secular groups, or atheist groups. If the leader of
the group is doing something you don't like or saying things you disagree with,
you know you have the option of just leaving the group. You can say
I'm going to start my own group. You can say I disagree with this,
I want to move on, as opposed to I'm going to spend every
waking hour trying to destroy you. I'm going to call your job and try
to get you fired. I'm going to make up stories about you, I'm
going to lie about you. I'm going to create groups for you. Actively
going after someone to try to destroy them is a very odd thing as a
part of our culture. And that's what I really don't understand. And that's
why I said I feel like not only society as a whole, but our
community, the atheist community, could learn a lot from that tenet. And
it goes right along back to number one, which is striving to act with
compassion and empathy, and that includes in the Louis example, the women who
were harmed, but also Louis Tooly being treated with empathy and compassion and recognizing
that we all make mistakes. Yeah, yeah, all right, what's that
seventh one. The seventh one. Every tenant is a guiding principle designed to
inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and
justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word. So kind of the
opposite of one Timothy three sixteen. All scripture is God breathed and useful for
teaching in righteousness. Yes, it's very much like now the words have to
make sense, bro. Yeah, that's kind of what that's saying. Yes,
and also that you know, yes, we have these other six tenants
that we just read, but you pointed out a variety of issues that might
challenge some of those things, and in the end, it is the year
of compassion, wisdom, and justice that should prevail over you know, well,
this is what the tenant says, So this is what I have to
do. We don't we don't read them in dogmatic ways. Gotcha. You
mentioned before we started recording that you're you love the invocation, So let's talk
me through an actual service. Are you do you attend like a church?
Do you show up on a Sunday morning or Tuesday night or whatever it is
you people do. Do you show up at a congregation? Do you have
a church building. What to talk me through kind of the rituals and what
it's like to uh to be a part of a service, and do you
even call it a service? Sure, So one of the other things that
qualifies us as a religion is that we do have rituals. The other thing
is community and I can touch on that later. But as far as the
meeting space, we meet once a month. We call it our congregation meeting
and ours is located at a dive bar in the back with loud metal music
playing in the other room, which is very Satanic. And yeah, we
we open with an invocation and then we have announcements from the various committee heads,
and then we have a service from one of our ministers, and that
rotates every month, and a minister would give like a sermon almost usually it's
a talk of some kind uh, something related to Satanism in some way.
So while I was here, I could have potentially come and given a talk.
Or does it have to be a ministry? It has to be a
minister. You could only go to meetings if you have already been not open
to the public outside speakers, and it's not open to the public. You
have to be a member, and that is for privacy concerns. Sure,
we do have some events that are public. We have a sole Invictis party
coming up in December, but the monthly meetings are members only. Is the
invocation always the same it is. It was written by Lucian Greeves, who
is one of the founders and is the official spokesperson for TST. Not me,
but he wrote the invocation. And this is something that has been used
politically as well in local city governments opening with Christian prayers. Right, so
you'll ask to do the invocation exactly. They have to let you because they
let Christians earlier that month. And then you read this into a microphone before
the city council. Yes, and so we open our meetings with this too.
Let us stand now, unbowed and unfettered by arcane doctrines born of fearful
minds in darkened times. Let us embrace the Luciferian impulse to eat of the
tree of knowledge and dissipate our blissful and comforting delusions of old. Let us
demand that individuals be judged for their concrete actions, not their fealty to arbitrary
social norms and illusory categorizations. Let us reason our solutions with agnosticism, and
all things holding fast only to that which is demonstrably true. Let us stand
firm against any and all arbitrary authority that threatens the personal sovereignty of one and
all. That which will not bend must break, and that which can be
destroyed by truth should never be be spared its demise. It is done.
Hail Lilith, Hail Satan. Oh it's corect Okay, very cool. Yeah,
No, My favorite part, the thing that speaks to me the most
is let us embrace the Luciferian impulse to eat of the tree of knowledge.
And again it's just coming from Christian background. As I was leaving the church
in that process, that was one of the things for me that just never
made sense that it was wrong for her to eat that fruit. And so
being able now as a Satanist to turn that on its head and celebrate eating
from the tree of knowledge, celebrating that rebellion from arbitrary authority in pursuit of
knowledge and truth. It's I love that imagery. Yeah, it's directly the
opposite of the Bible. The one that I come across all the time is
Proverbs three five, lean not on your own understanding, but trust in the
Lord, your God. This is the opposite that is this is saying we
should look at everything with agnosticism and then ends with Hail Satan. It's funny
because they're they're open, like you know, when when Lucian wrote this,
he's clearly showing that juxtaposition that you know, be agnostic about everything, let
the words and science guide you for the truth, and anything that's not going
to stand up to truth should never be spared its demise. I love that
writing. It's not only beautifully written and makes sense to say, if something
could be destroyed by truth, why don't we protect it? It should call
into question. And it's kind of when I'm talking with a Christian and I
go, do you want to know if you're wrong? You'd be surprised at
how many of them say no, like you just let me believe what I
want to believe, so I can die happy and blissful ignorance. So I
would say that that right there is probably the biggest difference between atheists and Christians
is that we really really need to know if what we believe is true,
and the Christian is more on the side of it. Feels good right now,
so I just don't want to have to think about it anymore. And
trying to drag them into that uncomfortable space of considering that you might be wrong
about something you've believed your entire life, it's very difficult to do. It's
so hard. It's why people lose relationships, they lose partnerships, they lose
family members because of this stuff, because it's so hard for someone to face
that uncomfortable truth that their beliefs might meet that demise. And I don't know
what it is about those of us who were also raised with those same beliefs
that causes us to not want to be blissfully ignorant, because I know,
for me, I needed to know whether or not what I believed was true.
I didn't want to be blissfully ignorant, but so many people do,
and I guess that's one of the differences. And I don't know where that
comes from, because I was indoctrinated the same way they were, but I
was just not okay remaining blissully ignorant. And that is why why Satanism speaks
to me so much, because the people in it are very similar in that
way. Is TST a nonprofit. It is Is it a religious nonprofit?
It is officially recognized as a as a church. Yes. One thing that
I read years ago, and again this is getting into something you may not
be aware of because you're not an official spokesperson for test, is that in
order to maintain your religious nonprofit status with the federal government, there are a
few things you have to do, and one of those things is actively trying
to recruit new members. It was a requirement. And so when people would
knock on doors or I would hear atheists to go, oh, I'm so
sick of these people knocking on my door, I would kind of defend the
religion and go that they kind of have to to keep their status. They
have to do some sort of community outreach to try to reach people. So
are you aware of any outreach that TST does or is there any door knocking?
Is there any It could be as simple as we're having a public event.
Here's a public advertisement. That might check that box. But when you
have public events, is there is there ever a kind of a desire or
attempt to say we'd like you to join us based on these tenants? Uh,
not at all. We are definitely not knocking on doors. We don't
stand on street corners, no bullhorns yelling at Christians in front of churchess,
Nope, nope. And yeah, we definitely don't actively as far as I
know, and I could be wrong, but we don't actively proselytize or try
or try to bring people in. Even when we have a public event like
I mentioned. Next month we're celebrating Soul Invictus and it's going to be a
public party. There's going to be a ritual at some times reach. I
mean, you may not be trying to convince someone, yes, but that's
definitely outreached to the public. And yeah, but it's it's like, come
party with us. It's going to be fun. It's there's at no point
is it going to be like an altar call and now after you've heard the
word of Satan come forward. There's nothing like that. And we do,
we do get new members, but I mean, I know, for me,
nobody reached out to me. I just I found the site online and
I've filled out the membership application and the membership chair got back to me that
was it is, Is there a cost associated if someone wanted to sign up?
What what can they do and is there is there like monthly fees,
you know, to run the organization? Like what what can someone do if
they would like to join? You would have to look for a local chapter
wherever you are, find their website and fill out the membership application. There's
absolutely no fee, And I can't speak to how each individual congregation does it,
but for my experience, it was an online interview, and one of
the things that was clear in the interview was made clear to me was you
understand that we are a religion, right Like they wanted to make sure before
you volunteer yourself for this that you understood that it was And I'll admit the
first time I heard that, I was like, I viewed it more as
a using the religious aspect for politics for political reasons, like we talked about
and when she emphasized that, no, but we actually are a religion too,
even though we don't believe in Satan, and I had to do that.
It's not the belief in Satan that makes it the religion. It's the
belief in the tenants. It's the tenants. It is the rituals, and
it is the invocation the community. Yes, the ritual and then also the
community aspect. All of that is what makes it a religion. You said,
we're going to get into that later. I think that's a good place
to end. Is the community. Okay, what is it about that?
I'll say this too. A lot a lot of Christians will talk about like
how good their church is, and they think when I say I'm an atheist
or I don't believe in their religion, that I'm against all those wonderful things
they do for the community and as a part of their church community. And
I love that stuff. I'm pro all of that. It's the divisive nature
that comes with it that I don't like. So if you found a way
to have community without and with inclusivity, right of all people, gay,
trans, black, white, brown, everyone can come together and be a
part of the community without saying, well, these people are special and those
people are too worldly and he has hair past his collar, so he's going
to hell, and uh, you know, without all the judgment, I
think is what I'm saying. I think the religious community comes with a lot
of judgment, a lot of backbinding, a lot of gossiping, a lot
of like talking whisperers and like she's this, and he's that And of course
you know when you have that power, you end up with growing claims of
sexual abuse or assault within churches. Yo's not just you know the the trope
that it's the Catholic church. It happens across multiple denominations. And you know,
underage girls tend to be in danger and things like that and more so.
And so if you can find a way to do that where there are
some checks and balances on that piece and you're you're inclusive and you're not abusing
that power, but you still got to have that community that sounds like the
best of all the worlds. Why would you not want to do that?
So what what is the TST community? Like? Ah? So just real
quick to respond to what you said about like the good stuff that churches do
being for that like but it comes with a cost, right, Like yes,
there they might be collecting food for the homeless, but at the same
time they're going to preach their doctrine to the homeless when they come in to
eat. And when we do something like if we volunteer at a soup kitchen,
there's no like okay, but now you have to listen to us talk
about Satan and preach beliefs that are ultimately harmful. And that's my beef with
Christianity is that it's not just about your personal belief it's that you're preaching those
personal beliefs that are ultimately causing harm to society because they inform actions that are
harmful. And you know, personally, I don't think that we have that
at TST. But humans need community. This is not something that is only
for religious people, and it's not fair that religious people think that only we
get to have this. No, these are aspects of being human. We
were evolved to be a social species. There's studies that show the value in
being a member of a church, But what those studies show is that it's
not about the belief. It is the fact that people have a place to
go and be around other humans, and we get to have that without all
the supernatural stuff that ultimately causes harm. So we hang out, we support
each other, We do things like seeing karaoke at a karaoke bar. We
will march together at protests that are related to our values. When are you
planning on starting the war with the Church of Satan come all religions eventually do
it? Well? No, I mean there's definitely conflict between the Church of
Satan and TST. Mostly it's the Church of Satan not liking us and saying
that we're not real Satanists. They are, and we're kind of like they
claim and have h no, but they're they have something similar to not our
tenants, but they have their own set of like guidelines, and theirs are
much more individualistic, like oh, is that the one that's more about indulgence
indulgence? Yes, exactly, it's not. It's we should have Church of
Satan versus the debate right here on dogmative I'm down, but yeah, I
mean some of Satan, non Satan violence, some of the some of them,
you know, like I'm down with with pleasure and the endorsement of of
getting pleasure in this life. But it's very much about just that. It's
not about how you treat other humans. It's not about pursuit of justice,
it's not about compassion, and so for me, TST is what resonated even
though yes, there are other forms of Satanism out there, and but TSC
is the much larger group now. So that's why we don't really bother to
engage much because it's like who are you? Who are you again? I'm
pretty sure you're over shots fired Church of Satan. I say, I say,
we get you on and we have that talk. Yeah, I would
like to know more about the differences. Eventually, I'd like to bring them
on and see what they thought about this podcast as well. It's it's interesting
and again it's fun to play with as well, because you know, ultimately
you share very similar values, including the equality piece right, and that Christianity
shouldn't get special privileges in our society. I think we should all agree on
that, including Christians from a from a political standpoint. You know, that's
something to me that's the biggest takeaway from this, and I want Christians to
hear this to go, oh, you know, it's it's mostly about being
nice and loving each other and not giving special treatment to one particular religion.
It's that what you guys are really about. Yes, that's that's the entire
point. Yeah, And you know, it can be hard. Atheists tend
to be people who are I've heard the term that's like hurting cats, you
know, and so it's hard to find a community of like minded people.
And what I have found with TST is that that's that's what I get out
of it. I get to be around people that share my values and who
know how to have a good time, and it has enriched my life in
that way. Listen, it's it's hurting cats because you're trying to force them
to do something they don't want to do. But all the cats will show
up at the same time for dinner, right, So if you do something,
if you're if you're actively offering something that is positive for humanity, you
don't have to hurt anyone. Yeah, they'll they'll come and it's fun,
all right. So is there a website people should go to? Do you
know? Is there like a Satana Temple website? There is? What is
it? Let's let's let's let them know what that is. I don't want
to I don't want to type on here because we're recording differently than I normally
do. And if I start, it is just the Satanic Temple dot com
and that'll take you to the national website, the official and I'm sure there
are locations there in like different chapters exactly. You would have to look up
your local chapter. If you're in the New York City area, we are
tst NYC if you're interested in just knowing more about the history not only of
TST, but Satanism in general. Speak of the Devil by Joseph P.
Laycock would be a good resource as well, if you just want to read
up on the history. It's it's pretty accurate. Even though he himself is
not a Satanist, he talked to a lot of us. Very cool.
Well, thank you. I can't think, you know, for being willing
to do this and sharing these things with us. It's it's really interesting.
I don't I don't know too much you've said that I disagree with. I
mean, it sounds pretty much on point, other than the the stigma that
comes along with it, which which should be overcome by people like you,
good people like you speaking out and saying this is actually what we what we
stand for. So I think it's important. So thanks for doing the show.
Absolutely. I had a great time, David. All right, and
thanks so much for your continued support on Patreon as well. We definitely appreciate
you over there. All right, guys, So that's it. The conversation
continues at patreon dot com slash David C. Smalley. We're not going to
continue talking, but I want to know what you have to say in the
comments below the episode at patreon dot com slash David C. Smalley. The
phone number again to shoot me a text is four two four three zero six
zero seven nine eight. All right, until next time, please drive to
let you know each other. Hail sand Also that