WEBVTT

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I'm Neil de grat Tyson. Hey, I'm Adam Carola Pa Gillette. Not

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only listening, I'm the guest.
I'm a pet and teller and I fourth

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listener and I am the fourth listener, and that must make me at least

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the fourth listener. To keep our
three listeners coming back, we must be

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doing something right. And if you're
the fourth listener, we thank you for

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the support. You can get every
episode with no ads at patreon dot com

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slash David C. Smalley and take
advantage of your fourth listener status. And

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we're going to sue David smalley for
slander. With a world divided, it's

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time to resurrect a nuance and remember
the importance of conversation. He's an actor,

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he's a comedian, and he'll make
you think this is David C.

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Smallly. Yes it is. Thank
you so much for joining me today.

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I'm on the road still, so
this is gonna sound a little different than

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most podcasts I put out. Finally
finished up. I think what's been I

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don't know. One thousand weeks on
the road feels like I got to meet

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a lot of you and interact with
a lot of people and we had some

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great comedy shows. I had an
absolute blast, and I'm ready to get

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back home, but I'm still in
New York as of this moment, and

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I wanted to go ahead and record
this because I knew that episode six six

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' six was coming up, and
I've thought about this for over a year.

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I'm like, what am I gonna
do for episode six sixty six?

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Is it even that big of a
deal to anybody else? And I finally

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decided, I think, I think
it would be perfect to have someone on

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the show for episode six sixty six
that is a Satanist, and I happen

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to know one. So for any
of you who have commentary on this show,

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want to be signed up for my
text list, want to comment or

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respond to me, or come out
to a comedy show, send a text

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to four two four three zero six
zero seven nine eight. That's four two

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four three zero six zero seven nine
to eight. Today's guest is not only

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a fan of the show and patron, but also a Satanist. Join me

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in welcoming Tabitha to the podcast.
Hello Tabitha, Hello David, Hail satan

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Okay, let's get into it then, So you're you're an active member of

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TST. That's correct, yes,
but you're not a spokesperson for TST.

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Absolutely, I am not an official
spokesperson. I am not here to represent

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the organization. But I'm absolutely happy
to talk to you about my beliefs and

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my interpretation of what it is that
we do. Yeah, that's that's that's

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kind of the thing. And you
know, I mentioned to a few people

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in my family that I was thinking
about doing this for episode six sixty six,

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and they were like, I said, I think I'll talk to a

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Satanist. And immediately it was like, oh, animal sacrifice. I'm like,

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that's in the Bible, not you
know, these ideas that our society

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thinks that that it is to be
a Satanist, it seems that most of

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them come from like Christian lore or
early Judaism. Like it seems that when

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you know, a ram caught in
the thicket and I believe it's is a

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genesis, uh, and during the
Testing of Abraham, Like there's so much

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animal sacrifice in in Exodus, during
the Passover, it's you know, sacrifice

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a lamb and then wipe the blood
on the post outside. It's all animal

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sacrifice. So it's it's crazy to
me that all of these Christians who lean

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into these things as holy and godly, all these traditions, that they go,

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oh, it's a miracle, it's
the passover, it's this, it's

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this, And then they look at
Satanists and go animal sacrifice. So no,

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no, no, no, that
would be you that that you know

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supported all that stuff. Why do
you think there's that confusion? That's a

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great question. I know that for
mind of things, it's it's a fun

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thing to play with. I don't
think anywhere in the Bible anyone sacrifices animals.

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To say, in you're right,
anytime it comes up, it's a

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sacrifice to God, especially that whole
human sacrifice thing, right, right,

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the worship of a human sacrifice.
Right. But we're the crazy ones,

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yeah, I mean Christians are literally
wearing crosses around their neck that is the

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symbol of a human blood sacrifice.
And then they're like gross animal sacrifice and

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the Satanic Temple or whatever. So
what is the Satanic Temple and what does

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it actually stand for? So the
Satanic Temple is a branch of Satanism.

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Uh, Satanism was around before TST. What stands apart in TST? From

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other Satanists such as the Church of
Satan is probably our tenants, which sounds

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a lot like humanism when you hear
them, and also that we do consider

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ourselves a religion, a religion without
supernatural belief, but a religion nonetheless.

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So okay, So this is probably
the biggest question I wanted to get out

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to the public because I've heard conflicting
answers on it, and I'm gonna be

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careful how I asked the question,
because I know it's you and your beliefs

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versus what TST. I guess the
congregation would actually call it, So you

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can answer either way you're comfortable answering. Is there a generic belief in an

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actual deity Satan in your perspective,
No, and I don't think that you

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would hear anyone say differently. I
think there's a very tiny percentage of Satanists

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outside of TST who might actually believe
in a real Satan. But TST is

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a religion without supernatural belief. Satan
is a symbol, it's a metaphor.

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It's fun to play with because of
all of the misconceptions out there. So,

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for example, you mentioned blood sacrifice, We're doing a blood drive right

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now, and we're calling it a
blood sacrifice, and it's just we are,

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yes, but for a good cause. And again it's it's not an

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actual sacrifice like you think with a
RAM, but we're playing with that terminology.

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Yeah, so it's symbolic. So
you don't think there's any one within

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the organization that you know of that
actually believes or worships in actual satan.

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I can't speak for everyone, but
I would say that a belief in a

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supernatural being would be against the tenants. Gotcha. I want to get into

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those tenants in a second. But
what I've noticed that's very helpful from from

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the activist side of things is,
you know, you'll have some local city

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council want to throw up, you
know, the Ten Commandments. And I

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was talking about this with my mom
when I was in Texas. I was

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like, I was explaining kind of
the idea behind it, and I was

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like, you know, I was
like, oh cool. Tony Rock just

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replied and said he can do my
show December fourth. That is fantastic.

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So yeah, he'll be at the
Hollywood and probe with me December fourth.

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Chris Rock's brother Tony Rock. Okay, anyway, so I was explaining to

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my mom. I was like,
you know how these these local city councils

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will want to put up like the
Ten Commandments or something, and she's like

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yeah, And I said, you
know that's not fair. You know,

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so that's that's trying to treat one
religion with more respect than the others.

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And my mom was like, yeah, I could see that, Like that's

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not okay, I'm all right.
Cool, she understood that. And I

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was like, so if you just
go in there and say I don't like

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that it sounds like you hate Christianity
as opposed to this other group, that

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will be like, oh cool,
yeah, keep your Ten Commandments up.

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Also, here's a statue of bethel
met what is it, Befelman And then

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she's like what's that? And I
looked it up and showed her. She

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was like oh. I was like, so instead, you know, this

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organization will come in and say we
want to put our thing up too,

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and it's like this seven foot ridiculous
statue to kind of prove the point that

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maybe you shouldn't maybe we share a
government, and that government shouldn't take sides,

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and that if there are people in
this city council or within the city

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that's paying taxes. Maybe we should
all just share it and keep religion out

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of it. And she was like, no, I get that. That

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makes sense. I was like,
well, that's what the Satanic temple does

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as far as I know. But
then I was worried about having you on

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and saying out loud, I don't
really worship a Satan. Does that show

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all the cards and say, aha, this isn't real because you don't actually

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believe in a Satan. Does that
take some power away from the religious belief?

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No, And that is because legally
we have been recognized as a religion

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without having to say we believe in
a supernatural deity. I think there is

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a court case that also considered secular
humanism a form of religion, so that

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people have a right the same way
a church would have their rights to practice

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their religion. So do secular humanists
and so do Satanists. So under the

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law, a belief in a deity
is not required to be legally recognized as

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a religion. So us openly saying
that takes no power away from the political

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expediency of ex athlete what you just
described that is definitely a piece to tst

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it's not the entire picture, but
it is a part of why it exists.

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So why not just secular humanism,
why embrace Satan? I think for

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partly for the reason that you mentioned
the activism. It has a shock value

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that can be very effective. You
mentioned the statue going up of bopamet.

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It freaks people out and doing that
it gets attention, gets national headline news

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in order to make a point about
separation of church and state. There's also

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an after school Satan Club which is
a project, and it is not that

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tst again my understanding, it's not
that they want to have after school clubs

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where Satanism is being promoted. That
is not the intent. The intent is

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there are Christian after school clubs who
are intentionally going after young children when their

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parents aren't around, to promote their
Christian beliefs, and we view that as

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a violation of separation of church and
state. And so by using the symbolism

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of Satan in our after school Satan
club again shock value. You want to

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have a what club in a school
with kids, which is what they should

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be saying about the Christian exactly exactly. And so it's either if your Christian

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club gets to exist, then you
also have to make room for our after

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school Satan club or get rid of
both, and that would be fine with

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us. Actually that's probably what you
would rather have, absolutely exactly. I

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love it. It's such a unique
angle to address these things, and it

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also calls into calls to the table
this idea that each religion seems to be

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for themselves right. Each religion says, I want mine to be promoted,

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I want mine to be special,
or in some cases, I want mine

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to be you will convert to mind
by force or death, like you will

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be mine. I want mine to
win. And when people first hear about

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atheists, they typically think we're immoral, we're terrible people, we're bad,

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and we are against whatever religion they
are, because being in a religion and

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thinking your religion is perfect, it's
kind of inherently narcissistic and arrogant to be

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like. But me and my little
group over here that was born in this

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timeframe, on this part of the
globe, we just so happen to have

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it right, and everyone else is
wrong and probably going to hell. And

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I don't know why bad things happen
terrible people, But when I pray to

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find my car Keys, God shows
me I have special access to the creator

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of the universe. It's inherently arrogant. And so what they don't know is

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that most atheists are actually in favor
of religious equality. We are totally fine

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with you practicing whatever belief you want
to practice at home, but we don't

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think any religion should be pushed by
any government entity at all, and so

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we want everyone to be equally either
ignored or accepted, preferably ignored, you

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know what I mean. Your religion
should be something in your home, and

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a lot of Christians don't realize that
until you get to have that conversation.

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And that's why I've typically tried on
this show to be more respectful, because

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I want them to feel safe long
enough to have the nuance part of the

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discussion, because if they just think
that you're evil, they'll stay away from

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that. Have you found that since
you've mentioned that you were Satanist or joined

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TST that it's hard to engage with
someone if you say I'm a Satanist.

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I feel like they'd be faster walk
away from a Satanist then an atheist.

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Uh yeah, I think the word
atheist. People have a typical reaction to

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that of what, but you're such
a good person. I've definitely heard that

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one, and then you add Satanists
and it's like, what, but you're

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such a good person. But I
would say that living in New York City,

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that experience does not happen nearly as
often. I feel immediately the need

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to clarify what it means to be
a Satanist as soon as I tell someone

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just so you know, we don't
actually believe in Satan. You understand that

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right before I say anything else,
because I know it could potentially turn someone

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off or scare them away. So
I try to combat that by immediately putting

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that out there. And honestly,
I have not one time had someone say,

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oh, thank you for telling me
I didn't know that. Everyone says,

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well, yeah, obviously so,
and maybe that's because I'm in my

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New York City Yeah, bubble,
but exactly exactly. Yeah, So let's

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talk about what you actually do believe. You know, my friend Todd Steefele,

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who is, you know, given
to tons of organizations out there,

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had a whole talk he gave that's
on YouTube called I Think it's we believe

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or I believe or what we believe
something along those lines. Just just look

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for Todd Steefele We believe and I
think you'll you'll find it, and he

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talks about all the positive things that
atheists do believe in, because one very

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common thing we get is, oh, you believe in nothing. No,

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that's not at all what this is. I guess depending on what you're talking

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about, what happens when you die
type situation, but or what's the afterlife,

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things like that. But there's a
lot of stuff we do believe,

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Like you mentioned humanism, specifically secular
humanism. But when it comes to the

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Satanic Temple, you have tenants,
things that you actually believe. Let's see

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if I can get on board with
them. I've never written them. I

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know that they exist, I've I've
seen I think I've skimmed them for a

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podcast before, but I've never really
taken a deep look to go. Let

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me see if I acknowledge all these
and believe it. So let's let's go.

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How many are there? There are
seven fundamental tenants. This is one

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of the things that does allow us
to be classified as a religion because it's

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it's kind of code creed. But
for me personally, I view them more

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as descriptive. It wasn't that I
joined TST and now all of a sudden

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I had these seven rules that I
needed to live my life by. But

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rather I read these seven tenants and
I was like, oh my god,

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that's me. Gotcha. Yes,
so they're descriptive as to where I don't.

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I don't know that Christians do that
with a ten commandment, right,

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No, Like, oh yeah,
that's totally how I live my life.

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All right, let's hear them,
all right? So the first tenant is

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one should strive to act with compassion
and empathy toward all creatures in accordance with

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reason. Does that require you to
be vegan? I can see already a

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little bit, because how could you
eat animals? And I mean I personally

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feel like, as a as an
omnivore myself former vegan, that I have

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compassion toward animals. But a vegan
would look at me and say, you

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have some compassion towards some animals,
some you don't give a damn about,

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and they would have an argument.
I think, so, how do you

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interpret that and how does that fit
into your lifestyle? I would say that

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I'm definitely an omnivore, but I
how are animals treated before and during the

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process of killing them. For human
yourself to say slaughter. And then also

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there's in accordance with reason is a
part of that too, And I would

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say, you know, human beings
evolved to eat a variety of foods,

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including meat and other animals. We
don't really have a lot of long term

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research on the effects of veganism,
so I wouldn't necessarily say that this requires

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me to be vegan now, because
I don't personally think that would accord with

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reason, especially in places in the
world where it's just not an option.

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I think people should recognize that,
like, if you have the option to

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go vegan here in the United States, there's a certain amount of privilege with

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access to enough nutrients and vegan foods
to be able to do that. Other

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parts of the world, you're gonna
eat what you could eat. Yeah,

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And in my situation, just to
take a side note, just because this

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podcast is personal for me and people
get to know me through this podcast,

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I went vegan for just a little
over a year and I kept getting sick,

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I kept getting dizzy, light headed, I was breaking out. I

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couldn't figure out what was going on. I was feeling a tightness in my

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throat, and I couldn't I couldn't
figure it out. So I took a

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test and found out I have twenty
nine food sensitivities that are bordering on allergic

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reactions, and most of them are
what you would consider healthy vegan foods.

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Bananas, pineapple, kale, hummus, chickpea, like a lot of the

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stuff that when you're like, I'm
gonna have a vegan smoothie, I can't

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have it most of the time.
Even if like I can do like peanuts

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and peanut butter, but usually it's
a peanut butter banana smoothie. I can't

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have the banana. I would have
like a kale smoothie, and instead of

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ice, they would sweeten it with
pineapple chunks. I can't have the pineapple.

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And so there's I have this list
of twenty nine things that I'm not

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supposed to have, including some non
vegan stuff, but the vast majority of

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things on my list are part of
vegan diets, including vanilla. Vanilla is

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like the number one thing I can't
have. Wow, And every vegan dessert

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I ever found was packed full of
vanilla. And they don't even have to

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list vanilla in the ingredients. They
can literally just say natural flavors. So

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sometimes natural flavors includes vanilla, sometimes
it doesn't. So I constantly find myself

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lightheaded, breaking out, getting blotchy
skin, being bloated, having stomach problems,

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And I'm just like, but you
know what, if I eat brisket

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or barbecue, I never have that
problem. So unfortunately for me, it

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wasn't the best thing. Sure,
there's a way I could probably do it

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that's even more restrictive, And now
I've got veganism on top of twenty nine

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food restrictions, and it was I
became less healthy, I felt terrible all

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the time, and it wasn't good
for me. So that's where the within

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logic and reason comes into play.
Absolutely, and it would not be compassionate

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or empathetic to you to force you
to eat that kind of a diet that's

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not good for yours. And it
also just has creatures, which includes human

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beings. Absolutely does the word creature
imply creation? Hm hmm, I'm gonna

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say, no, I don't have
I don't know. You're throwing me off

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of this one day, all right, maybe they need to update that.

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We'll address that. Creatures I mean, I would have to go and look

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at the entomology of the word to
see where it came from, and probably

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there is some connection there, But
that doesn't mean that that is how we

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interpret the word now, because meanings
of words change over time, even if

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there was some connection in the origin
of those words. Gotcha. Okay,

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what's the next one? Number two? The struggle for justice is an ongoing

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and necessary pursuit that should prevail over
laws and institutions. Oh. I love

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that justice over laws because laws are
not always just, not always just.

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And so many people connect those two. They say, no, that's the

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law, so that's it, But
that doesn't mean it's just. It means

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it was decided previously that that was
best for someone, but not necessarily for

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everyone. Absolutely. Wow mm hm
and again yeah, thinking about it being

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descriptive. I didn't see this and
then start thinking to myself, Okay,

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I have to start fighting for justice
now. No, I was already doing

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that. I consider, you know, in my work as a teacher.

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Every day I'm working towards the fight
for justice and equality. So I saw

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this and I was like, yes, absolutely, that's me. All right,

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what's the next one? Three?
This is a big one for me,

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probably my favorite. One's body is
inviolable, subject to one's own will

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alone. Okay, so that would
mean your pro choice right. Yes,

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I'm wearing a shirt that says I
had an abortion right now. Yeah,

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and you are also you would apply
that to the vaccine as well, saying

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that people shouldn't be forced to get
them. Oh, I would say at

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that point it when it's a public
health concern, then it's not just your

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body at that point, like you
could potentially be affecting other exactly the pro

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life argument. Though it's not just
your body, it's a it's a potential

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human life in there that you're affected. But the the embryo is reliant on

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the woman's body, so that's different
than someone who exists out side of a

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body. I just I could never
I think a private company could have the

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ability to say if you're not vaccinated, you're not allowed to come, just

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like I think. But if a
private company says, if you have an

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abortion, I'm going to fire you, should we support that. A private

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company saying that, I don't see
how that would be any of their business.

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But you're saying, because if they're
a private company, they can choose.

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I don't know, Like there are
private religious organizations, for example,

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that will say, you know,
if you have to sign a statement of

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faith in order to join, and
if you sign up for that organization,

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that's between you and that organization,
and that's fine, and you agree to

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live according to their tenants, right, and if their tenants is you have

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to believe in order to be a
part of this, then you agree to

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that. And then if you stop
believing, they have the right to remove

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you. So I think in some
instances, a private company could say,

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well, yeah, we are a
Christian. Let's say let's say there was

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a Christian family organization that talked about
the traditional family, and then the director

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is a woman and she has an
abortion that goes against their views, would

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they have the right to terminate her? I suppose so. I guess it

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would depend on whether if it's a
private company that has no funding from the

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government, that's a totally separate issue. I'm not sure how the laws work

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with that. To be honest,
I know that if it is the government,

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the government cannot respect one's religion over
another, so they wouldn't be able

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to fire someone because you know,
well, I'm a Christian and it goes

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against my belief that you had an
abortion, So you're fired. I don't

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know how that works in private companies. Can we go back to the vaccine

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thing, because I just wanted to
mention that I don't I don't think it

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would be okay to hold you down
and force you to take a vaccine.

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That would be a violation of your
body and your own will. Exactly right.

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However, things like requiring them for
public school. If you decide you're

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not going to vaccinate your child,
that is technically your choice, but you're

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also choosing then not to enroll your
child in public schools because now your child

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could potentially pass on things like polio, which has been found back in the

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water, outbreaks of measles, you
know, things like that that we thought

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were Yeah, so that's that was
where I was going with this exactly,

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is that you can have the freedom
right. I don't want the government to

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mandate the vaccine, but with your
freedom of choice comes consequences exactly, exactly

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perfect, all right, Yeah,
I love that. I love that tenant.

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Yeah. And for me, also, the reason this one is so

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important is because of my my stance
on being pro choice and Also, I

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just feel very strongly that my body
is my own and no one has a

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say and what I do with it. So I extend this to my romantic

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life as well. And again this
is personal interpretation. By no means does

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that mean that everyone in test views
it in that way. But for me,

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personally, no one has a say
on what happens with my body.

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I love that what's next, what's
next for the freedoms of others should be

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respected, including the freedom to offend
to willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms

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of another is to forego one's own. Yeah, this is this is This

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goes back to me saying we have
to protect the rights of people to disagree

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00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:53.680
with us. That's necessary and what
should be a representative democracy, we have

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to have alternate viewpoints being heard.
Yeah. But here's I I want to

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I want to push on this one
a little because I've I've come to my

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own sort of crossroads with Years ago, it was one hundred percent free speech,

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one hundred do whatever you want to
do, And here lately I've been

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like okay with with Parlor and truth
Social and Fox News and Newsmax and Facebook

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groups that have started about me personally, things that that there are. There

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are entire groups on Facebook who hate
me for things I've literally never said or

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00:28:38.680 --> 00:28:42.400
believed, but they've said that I
said them, and they got enough people

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to believe that that's my view.
And I've received death threats over them,

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over overviews that I don't hold.
And so free speech is one thing,

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but doing what people in those groups
do, accusing me of things I've never

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00:29:03.759 --> 00:29:10.000
done or said, accusing me of
views I don't hold. Fox News flat

351
00:29:10.039 --> 00:29:17.279
out lying or just removing obvious truths
from a story to make it seem shady,

352
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the way Tucker Carlson would go,
Is this an issue maybe we should

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look into? This is the transgender
community causing the wrath of God to come

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down upon us? You know,
just dumb shit like that that stir people

355
00:29:30.319 --> 00:29:34.519
up, and the Newsmax just flat
out putting false information out there. Fox

356
00:29:34.559 --> 00:29:41.680
News now being sued for putting false
information out there about election fraud. They

357
00:29:41.799 --> 00:29:45.200
lost it, But do you think
everyone who believed it now understands that they

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00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:48.880
lost the case. They're not reporting
that they lost it. They're not doing

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their own reporting that they had to
pay that money out So here lately,

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I guess I say. Lately,
over the last you know, eighteen to

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twenty four months, I've been like, have we he'd gone too far with

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the free speech? Have we pushed
so far that people? I mean,

363
00:30:07.160 --> 00:30:08.839
you look at some of the things
Donald Trump says. Just about every time

364
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he says something like this, something
really happens in real life. He railed

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00:30:15.400 --> 00:30:18.200
against Nancy Pelosi, called her every
name in the book, said she was

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a poison and a cancer on society, and then a man breaks into her

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home and beats her husband with a
hammer over the head. Trump would talk

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about at his rallies, boy,
back in my day, you could really

369
00:30:30.839 --> 00:30:33.559
rough them up, and then started
saying, I'll pay your legal fees.

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And then sure enough people start being
physically assaulted at his rallies for disagreeing.

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They're being punched on the way out. We had recently a guy was shot

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00:30:42.640 --> 00:30:45.720
in front of the White House.
We're trying to drive his car into the

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White House. Secret Service had to
open fire on a man recently who was

374
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the Secret Service was protecting Joe Biden's
granddaughter and they had to shoot at a

375
00:30:55.079 --> 00:30:59.119
guy and the guy got away.
Because these attacks, when Trump talks like

376
00:30:59.200 --> 00:31:02.599
this, you know, I was
surprised he got away with that. When

377
00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:06.519
he said about Hillary Clinton, he
said maybe the Second Amendment people will take

378
00:31:06.519 --> 00:31:11.400
care of her. I mean,
how bone chilling is that? Right?

379
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So, and then of course his
rhetoric leading up to the certification of the

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00:31:17.400 --> 00:31:22.640
election on January sixth clearly caused an
issue and people to become violent. So

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00:31:23.240 --> 00:31:27.720
free speech has you know, we've
really pushed the limits of what's free speech.

382
00:31:27.880 --> 00:31:32.839
Is when people start acting violently as
a result of free speech, we

383
00:31:33.079 --> 00:31:37.000
might need to check some of these
balances, is what I'm saying. I

384
00:31:37.000 --> 00:31:42.160
think that is what is happening right
now. You mentioned, you know O'donald

385
00:31:42.200 --> 00:31:51.559
Trump being on trial for instigating the
January sixth insurrection. That is what that

386
00:31:51.720 --> 00:31:55.319
is. It is a check in
balance on that. Hopefully it is successful.

387
00:31:56.240 --> 00:32:01.200
The Fox News being sued for by
the company that created the uh yes,

388
00:32:01.680 --> 00:32:06.599
they made the machines, right,
the voting machines, and they won

389
00:32:06.680 --> 00:32:12.480
that lawsuit. Also, things like
libel right, isn't that isn't that protection

390
00:32:12.680 --> 00:32:19.279
against someone slandering your name using things
that are not true? So there are

391
00:32:19.480 --> 00:32:22.519
we say we have free speech,
but there are there are limits to that.

392
00:32:24.240 --> 00:32:29.599
And you know, the tenet is
is freedom to offend, not freedom

393
00:32:29.640 --> 00:32:35.160
to say things that are going to
cause harm. But I fully agree with

394
00:32:35.240 --> 00:32:43.119
you that there's their speech and their
speech that causes people to actions that commit

395
00:32:43.279 --> 00:32:49.799
harm. And in my view that
is that takes precedence. If what you're

396
00:32:49.799 --> 00:32:55.440
saying is causing violence and you're actually
hurting people, then that should be The

397
00:32:55.480 --> 00:32:59.599
thing is we don't know that it's
going to do it until it happens.

398
00:32:59.720 --> 00:33:04.319
Yeah, Like I could get on
this podcast and say Donald Trump is a

399
00:33:04.319 --> 00:33:07.240
poison against America. Yeah, yeah, and nothing could happen. Donald Trump

400
00:33:07.279 --> 00:33:14.720
could say David C. Smalley's podcast
and Dogma Debate is literally stealing souls and

401
00:33:14.759 --> 00:33:16.480
causing people to get abortions, and
someone could put a bullet in my head

402
00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:21.519
thinking they're doing God's work. So
and then after I die, they go,

403
00:33:21.559 --> 00:33:23.039
oh, maybe Trump shouldn't have said
that, or they go, no,

404
00:33:23.039 --> 00:33:25.519
Trump can say whatever he wants.
He's allowed to call David C.

405
00:33:25.640 --> 00:33:31.720
Smallly a poison. But this guy
who acted wasn't mentally well or wasn't emotionally

406
00:33:31.759 --> 00:33:35.839
regulated. So it's not Trump's fault
that this happened. He had no problem

407
00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:40.240
getting a gun, right, which
is a whole other issue. What's the

408
00:33:40.279 --> 00:33:46.960
next one? Next one, beliefs
should conform to one's best scientific understanding of

409
00:33:46.960 --> 00:33:52.680
the world. One should take care
never to distort scientific facts to fit one's

410
00:33:52.680 --> 00:33:58.599
beliefs. That's perfect. That's just
avoiding confirmation bias. Yes, and actually

411
00:33:58.640 --> 00:34:02.759
looking at reality. Have no pushback
on that. That's perfect love all right.

412
00:34:04.880 --> 00:34:09.400
Six people are fallible. If one
makes a mistake, one should do

413
00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:14.480
one's best to rectify it and resolve
any harm that might have been caused.

414
00:34:15.559 --> 00:34:19.760
I like that be a good person, be a good person, but also

415
00:34:19.800 --> 00:34:22.639
be accepting of people who make mistakes. Yep. And I think this is

416
00:34:22.639 --> 00:34:28.400
something our community really needs to learn, Yes, because we are so quick

417
00:34:28.960 --> 00:34:34.800
to destroy someone and throw them away
forever when they make a mistake, and

418
00:34:35.199 --> 00:34:39.960
it's like there's no path to redemption
ever if you make the slightest mistakes.

419
00:34:40.079 --> 00:34:45.920
It's almost like the the iin Rand
situation of just narrowing down and getting a

420
00:34:45.960 --> 00:34:50.760
smaller and smaller group every time you
meet, because you're just searching for that

421
00:34:50.880 --> 00:34:55.039
perfect activist or the perfect atheist or
the perfect satanist, to the point that,

422
00:34:55.800 --> 00:34:59.400
oh, she doesn't like this kind
of music, or she doesn't,

423
00:34:59.679 --> 00:35:01.639
you know, so believe she's not
vegan or she is vegan, and she

424
00:35:01.679 --> 00:35:06.199
doesn't get this, and we just
whittle it down to where it's basically just

425
00:35:06.239 --> 00:35:08.079
two of us going all right,
which one of us is better? You

426
00:35:08.079 --> 00:35:12.320
know? And in the search for
the perfect activists, you're gonna wiew yourselves

427
00:35:12.360 --> 00:35:17.480
down to a group that is basically
ineffective at getting anything done because all you

428
00:35:17.559 --> 00:35:22.039
do is eat your own tail.
And I gave a talk one time called

429
00:35:22.079 --> 00:35:28.960
eating our Own that's out there on
I think Seth Andrews, the Thinking Atheist

430
00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:32.239
YouTube channel that's called eating our Own
I believe, and it talks about how

431
00:35:32.280 --> 00:35:37.840
we were so quick to just try
to destroy Richard Dawkins when he said something

432
00:35:37.880 --> 00:35:43.559
about down syndrome, and destroy Sam
Harris when he had questions about Black Lives

433
00:35:43.559 --> 00:35:47.079
Matter, and you know, stuff
that I disagreed with Sam on and did

434
00:35:47.119 --> 00:35:51.320
a whole podcast responding to Sam,
and even emailed Sam and ask him to

435
00:35:51.320 --> 00:35:53.519
come on the show to discuss it. Still, I don't think we should

436
00:35:53.559 --> 00:35:58.800
throw people away for these types of
things. We say we want to grow,

437
00:35:58.880 --> 00:36:01.000
we say we're fine with me wrong, we say these things, but

438
00:36:01.039 --> 00:36:06.599
then when someone says you're wrong.
You're so terrified to openly admit that you

439
00:36:06.599 --> 00:36:08.840
were wrong, because you see what
happens to people in this community when they

440
00:36:08.840 --> 00:36:14.440
do that. You get eaten alive
and destroyed and everything goes away, and

441
00:36:15.320 --> 00:36:20.239
we're like vicious. Uh Like it's
like it's like piranha on meat. It's

442
00:36:20.360 --> 00:36:25.880
just and there's something about there's a
certain layer of the atheist community that thrives

443
00:36:25.920 --> 00:36:30.320
on destroying other people. And it's
so cringey to me. That's not humanism,

444
00:36:30.440 --> 00:36:36.519
that's not redemption, it's not progress
for humanity. It's just disgusting.

445
00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:42.559
And so I think this tenant right
here is something that a lot of really

446
00:36:42.559 --> 00:36:45.400
strong activists could embrace, and I
think the community would be better for it,

447
00:36:46.400 --> 00:36:52.239
absolutely recognizing that people have both good
and bad in them. Sometimes we

448
00:36:52.639 --> 00:36:58.559
fuck. I'm sorry, okay,
sometimes we mess up. That's and be

449
00:36:58.639 --> 00:37:00.920
willing to give someone you and I
forgive you. Oh, thank you,

450
00:37:01.039 --> 00:37:07.159
David. You should be a Satanist. I mean I do, I guess

451
00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:14.519
I do have a question. At
generally speaking, I am also disgusted by

452
00:37:14.599 --> 00:37:21.639
an anti cancel culture. It's toxic
in a lot of ways. On the

453
00:37:21.760 --> 00:37:28.440
other hand, I do wonder what
the line is where you no longer want

454
00:37:28.480 --> 00:37:36.320
to be associated because something they have
said or done is so reprehensible. And

455
00:37:36.320 --> 00:37:40.480
maybe it's if they are not acknowledging
it themselves, they're not making an attempt

456
00:37:40.800 --> 00:37:45.119
to do better, offering them that
chance to do better. But then if

457
00:37:45.159 --> 00:37:47.440
they don't take it, I mean, at what point? I mean?

458
00:37:47.760 --> 00:37:52.840
I feel like I gave Richard Dawkins
the benefit of a doubt for a long

459
00:37:52.920 --> 00:37:58.159
time, and recently some of the
stuff that he has said about transgender people

460
00:37:59.480 --> 00:38:04.000
makes me almost sick to my stomach. I haven't seen that. Okay,

461
00:38:04.119 --> 00:38:07.320
I haven't seen the newest updates of
what he's up to recently. Yeah,

462
00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:09.480
he is a seventy something year old
man, white man in the UK,

463
00:38:10.079 --> 00:38:14.159
so we have to take into consideration. There's there's gonna be some some of

464
00:38:14.199 --> 00:38:16.760
that cultural bias perhaps, But I
haven't seen what he said. I'm open

465
00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:20.280
to seeing it. In fact,
I would have him on the show to

466
00:38:20.280 --> 00:38:23.880
discuss it and do some research.
I will, I'll look up what he

467
00:38:23.960 --> 00:38:28.760
said. But like one example I
would say, for you know, not

468
00:38:28.800 --> 00:38:30.840
even in our community, just in
society, would be Louis c k the

469
00:38:30.880 --> 00:38:36.400
comedian. He did some stupid shit. He was on the road, he

470
00:38:37.559 --> 00:38:43.960
was doing comedy, and he was
around some women. And there's varying,

471
00:38:44.599 --> 00:38:49.519
there are different variations of the story, but the points are that he his

472
00:38:49.679 --> 00:38:52.760
kink was to masturbate in front of
women. He liked to be watched,

473
00:38:52.360 --> 00:38:55.199
and so he would ask these women
consent. As far as he knew,

474
00:38:55.199 --> 00:38:59.119
he was asking for consent, and
they would say sure, and then he

475
00:38:59.159 --> 00:39:01.519
would do it, and then they
were grossed out by it, or later

476
00:39:01.639 --> 00:39:09.559
said that they were they felt forced
or coerced to partake. Roughly ten years

477
00:39:09.760 --> 00:39:15.039
later, the women started speaking out
and saying this made me really uncomfortable,

478
00:39:15.079 --> 00:39:20.559
this was really inappropriate. And then
he immediately wrote kind of this op ed

479
00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:23.239
that was like, I am so
sorry. At the time, I thought

480
00:39:23.480 --> 00:39:28.079
I was asking for consent. Now
I understand I was a headlining comedian.

481
00:39:28.199 --> 00:39:30.639
You guys were opening for me.
I had power that I didn't really understand

482
00:39:30.760 --> 00:39:35.239
or realize, and I shouldn't have
done that, and I'm sorry. He

483
00:39:35.320 --> 00:39:39.679
immediately apologized for it. Every special
he had ever done was removed from Netflix

484
00:39:39.760 --> 00:39:45.159
and their partners. His TV show
he was working on was removed, his

485
00:39:45.239 --> 00:39:47.760
tours were canceled. A movie he
was working on was deleted and canceled.

486
00:39:49.440 --> 00:39:53.039
All the funding was just gone,
literally lost everything. And I'm like,

487
00:39:53.639 --> 00:40:00.239
for someone who did those things ten
years prior and then immediately apologized to lose

488
00:40:00.280 --> 00:40:05.519
everything and is still like he still
can't get a special on Netflix or everything

489
00:40:05.599 --> 00:40:07.840
else, he has to do everything
completely. I just go, what's the

490
00:40:08.880 --> 00:40:12.800
if someone today were to go,
oh, this person said a thing,

491
00:40:13.960 --> 00:40:19.719
what's the incentive for them to publicly
apologize versus deny it and call everybody a

492
00:40:19.760 --> 00:40:22.639
liar? Because when you look at
what Louis c K did by immediately apologizing,

493
00:40:22.679 --> 00:40:30.280
taking accountability and trying to do the
right thing and acknowledging any the way

494
00:40:30.280 --> 00:40:34.199
he acknowledged it was really well worded
as well. He was like, he

495
00:40:34.280 --> 00:40:37.280
said what he did wrong, he
said what his mindset was at the time,

496
00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:39.159
not an excuse, and said I
should have done better, and I

497
00:40:39.159 --> 00:40:45.440
apologize, it will never happen again. And still was just absolutely destroyed.

498
00:40:45.440 --> 00:40:49.239
And there are comics today that I
know that I'm friends with, that I

499
00:40:49.280 --> 00:40:52.119
love and respect, that will hear
me say that and probably never talk to

500
00:40:52.159 --> 00:40:55.079
me again because they're like, oh, you're fine with what Louie did.

501
00:40:55.239 --> 00:40:59.559
No, Louie's not even fine with
what Louie did. That's the point of

502
00:40:59.599 --> 00:41:02.480
this common station. Is there any
path or redemption? And if someone were

503
00:41:02.480 --> 00:41:07.519
to accuse some other big star today
of something, they look at Louie's path

504
00:41:07.559 --> 00:41:09.920
and go, well, I'm certainly
not going to apologize and admit it because

505
00:41:09.960 --> 00:41:14.719
that doesn't fucking work. So the
path is to go they're all liars.

506
00:41:14.719 --> 00:41:17.280
They're all liars, whether it's true
or not, and so we need to

507
00:41:17.320 --> 00:41:23.039
embrace the idea. You know,
of course there are people who go too

508
00:41:23.119 --> 00:41:27.159
far, but we're all going to
have different limits, right, And when

509
00:41:27.159 --> 00:41:32.079
you were mentioning it, you said
something very interesting. You said, you

510
00:41:32.760 --> 00:41:38.960
may want to distance yourself. Well, that's different. Saying I don't want

511
00:41:38.960 --> 00:41:44.920
to be a fan of Louise anymore
is perfectly fine. Saying I refuse to

512
00:41:44.960 --> 00:41:49.280
watch his shows because of what he
did perfectly fine. No one, including

513
00:41:49.320 --> 00:41:53.079
Louis, would ever say you should
be forced to watch my stuff. But

514
00:41:53.239 --> 00:42:00.320
to actively campaign to have him destroyed
and his entire career taken down from all

515
00:42:00.360 --> 00:42:06.239
of these platforms is a different layer
of activism. You're actively trying to take

516
00:42:06.280 --> 00:42:09.400
someone down because of mistakes they made, and the same is true for our

517
00:42:09.440 --> 00:42:13.960
groups, our individual secular groups,
or atheist groups. If the leader of

518
00:42:14.000 --> 00:42:16.159
the group is doing something you don't
like or saying things you disagree with,

519
00:42:17.039 --> 00:42:21.119
you know you have the option of
just leaving the group. You can say

520
00:42:21.119 --> 00:42:24.039
I'm going to start my own group. You can say I disagree with this,

521
00:42:24.119 --> 00:42:28.280
I want to move on, as
opposed to I'm going to spend every

522
00:42:28.320 --> 00:42:31.199
waking hour trying to destroy you.
I'm going to call your job and try

523
00:42:31.199 --> 00:42:34.800
to get you fired. I'm going
to make up stories about you, I'm

524
00:42:34.800 --> 00:42:37.320
going to lie about you. I'm
going to create groups for you. Actively

525
00:42:37.360 --> 00:42:40.760
going after someone to try to destroy
them is a very odd thing as a

526
00:42:40.760 --> 00:42:45.039
part of our culture. And that's
what I really don't understand. And that's

527
00:42:45.039 --> 00:42:46.960
why I said I feel like not
only society as a whole, but our

528
00:42:47.119 --> 00:42:52.920
community, the atheist community, could
learn a lot from that tenet. And

529
00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:55.960
it goes right along back to number
one, which is striving to act with

530
00:42:57.079 --> 00:43:04.079
compassion and empathy, and that includes
in the Louis example, the women who

531
00:43:04.119 --> 00:43:09.199
were harmed, but also Louis Tooly
being treated with empathy and compassion and recognizing

532
00:43:09.239 --> 00:43:14.119
that we all make mistakes. Yeah, yeah, all right, what's that

533
00:43:14.239 --> 00:43:19.800
seventh one. The seventh one.
Every tenant is a guiding principle designed to

534
00:43:19.960 --> 00:43:24.840
inspire nobility in action and thought.
The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and

535
00:43:25.079 --> 00:43:30.639
justice should always prevail over the written
or spoken word. So kind of the

536
00:43:30.679 --> 00:43:37.639
opposite of one Timothy three sixteen.
All scripture is God breathed and useful for

537
00:43:37.760 --> 00:43:42.400
teaching in righteousness. Yes, it's
very much like now the words have to

538
00:43:42.440 --> 00:43:45.239
make sense, bro. Yeah,
that's kind of what that's saying. Yes,

539
00:43:45.280 --> 00:43:49.440
and also that you know, yes, we have these other six tenants

540
00:43:49.440 --> 00:43:54.719
that we just read, but you
pointed out a variety of issues that might

541
00:43:54.800 --> 00:44:00.280
challenge some of those things, and
in the end, it is the year

542
00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:05.320
of compassion, wisdom, and justice
that should prevail over you know, well,

543
00:44:05.480 --> 00:44:07.960
this is what the tenant says,
So this is what I have to

544
00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:13.639
do. We don't we don't read
them in dogmatic ways. Gotcha. You

545
00:44:13.679 --> 00:44:22.039
mentioned before we started recording that you're
you love the invocation, So let's talk

546
00:44:22.159 --> 00:44:27.159
me through an actual service. Are
you do you attend like a church?

547
00:44:27.639 --> 00:44:31.480
Do you show up on a Sunday
morning or Tuesday night or whatever it is

548
00:44:31.559 --> 00:44:36.159
you people do. Do you show
up at a congregation? Do you have

549
00:44:36.199 --> 00:44:38.760
a church building. What to talk
me through kind of the rituals and what

550
00:44:38.800 --> 00:44:42.760
it's like to uh to be a
part of a service, and do you

551
00:44:42.760 --> 00:44:46.239
even call it a service? Sure, So one of the other things that

552
00:44:46.880 --> 00:44:52.840
qualifies us as a religion is that
we do have rituals. The other thing

553
00:44:52.920 --> 00:44:55.880
is community and I can touch on
that later. But as far as the

554
00:44:57.000 --> 00:45:02.599
meeting space, we meet once a
month. We call it our congregation meeting

555
00:45:04.519 --> 00:45:10.280
and ours is located at a dive
bar in the back with loud metal music

556
00:45:10.280 --> 00:45:15.840
playing in the other room, which
is very Satanic. And yeah, we

557
00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:23.920
we open with an invocation and then
we have announcements from the various committee heads,

558
00:45:24.199 --> 00:45:30.480
and then we have a service from
one of our ministers, and that

559
00:45:30.599 --> 00:45:37.360
rotates every month, and a minister
would give like a sermon almost usually it's

560
00:45:37.840 --> 00:45:44.800
a talk of some kind uh,
something related to Satanism in some way.

561
00:45:45.880 --> 00:45:47.800
So while I was here, I
could have potentially come and given a talk.

562
00:45:47.880 --> 00:45:50.559
Or does it have to be a
ministry? It has to be a

563
00:45:50.639 --> 00:45:54.199
minister. You could only go to
meetings if you have already been not open

564
00:45:54.239 --> 00:46:00.280
to the public outside speakers, and
it's not open to the public. You

565
00:46:00.360 --> 00:46:04.280
have to be a member, and
that is for privacy concerns. Sure,

566
00:46:04.960 --> 00:46:07.599
we do have some events that are
public. We have a sole Invictis party

567
00:46:07.639 --> 00:46:14.480
coming up in December, but the
monthly meetings are members only. Is the

568
00:46:14.480 --> 00:46:19.159
invocation always the same it is.
It was written by Lucian Greeves, who

569
00:46:19.280 --> 00:46:23.760
is one of the founders and is
the official spokesperson for TST. Not me,

570
00:46:24.599 --> 00:46:29.559
but he wrote the invocation. And
this is something that has been used

571
00:46:29.599 --> 00:46:37.280
politically as well in local city governments
opening with Christian prayers. Right, so

572
00:46:37.679 --> 00:46:42.360
you'll ask to do the invocation exactly. They have to let you because they

573
00:46:42.440 --> 00:46:46.119
let Christians earlier that month. And
then you read this into a microphone before

574
00:46:46.119 --> 00:46:50.880
the city council. Yes, and
so we open our meetings with this too.

575
00:46:52.079 --> 00:46:57.639
Let us stand now, unbowed and
unfettered by arcane doctrines born of fearful

576
00:46:57.679 --> 00:47:02.280
minds in darkened times. Let us
embrace the Luciferian impulse to eat of the

577
00:47:02.320 --> 00:47:08.239
tree of knowledge and dissipate our blissful
and comforting delusions of old. Let us

578
00:47:08.280 --> 00:47:15.280
demand that individuals be judged for their
concrete actions, not their fealty to arbitrary

579
00:47:15.360 --> 00:47:21.719
social norms and illusory categorizations. Let
us reason our solutions with agnosticism, and

580
00:47:21.800 --> 00:47:27.199
all things holding fast only to that
which is demonstrably true. Let us stand

581
00:47:27.199 --> 00:47:31.440
firm against any and all arbitrary authority
that threatens the personal sovereignty of one and

582
00:47:31.559 --> 00:47:36.400
all. That which will not bend
must break, and that which can be

583
00:47:36.440 --> 00:47:40.719
destroyed by truth should never be be
spared its demise. It is done.

584
00:47:42.119 --> 00:47:49.039
Hail Lilith, Hail Satan. Oh
it's corect Okay, very cool. Yeah,

585
00:47:49.119 --> 00:47:52.519
No, My favorite part, the
thing that speaks to me the most

586
00:47:52.920 --> 00:47:57.280
is let us embrace the Luciferian impulse
to eat of the tree of knowledge.

587
00:47:57.599 --> 00:48:05.280
And again it's just coming from Christian
background. As I was leaving the church

588
00:48:05.400 --> 00:48:07.199
in that process, that was one
of the things for me that just never

589
00:48:07.239 --> 00:48:13.400
made sense that it was wrong for
her to eat that fruit. And so

590
00:48:13.679 --> 00:48:20.800
being able now as a Satanist to
turn that on its head and celebrate eating

591
00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:27.719
from the tree of knowledge, celebrating
that rebellion from arbitrary authority in pursuit of

592
00:48:27.800 --> 00:48:34.000
knowledge and truth. It's I love
that imagery. Yeah, it's directly the

593
00:48:34.039 --> 00:48:37.760
opposite of the Bible. The one
that I come across all the time is

594
00:48:37.800 --> 00:48:42.559
Proverbs three five, lean not on
your own understanding, but trust in the

595
00:48:42.599 --> 00:48:45.440
Lord, your God. This is
the opposite that is this is saying we

596
00:48:45.480 --> 00:48:52.119
should look at everything with agnosticism and
then ends with Hail Satan. It's funny

597
00:48:52.159 --> 00:48:55.480
because they're they're open, like you
know, when when Lucian wrote this,

598
00:48:55.559 --> 00:49:05.239
he's clearly showing that juxtaposition that you
know, be agnostic about everything, let

599
00:49:05.239 --> 00:49:08.039
the words and science guide you for
the truth, and anything that's not going

600
00:49:08.079 --> 00:49:12.679
to stand up to truth should never
be spared its demise. I love that

601
00:49:12.800 --> 00:49:16.400
writing. It's not only beautifully written
and makes sense to say, if something

602
00:49:16.480 --> 00:49:21.559
could be destroyed by truth, why
don't we protect it? It should call

603
00:49:21.599 --> 00:49:23.199
into question. And it's kind of
when I'm talking with a Christian and I

604
00:49:23.239 --> 00:49:29.719
go, do you want to know
if you're wrong? You'd be surprised at

605
00:49:29.719 --> 00:49:32.119
how many of them say no,
like you just let me believe what I

606
00:49:32.159 --> 00:49:37.280
want to believe, so I can
die happy and blissful ignorance. So I

607
00:49:37.320 --> 00:49:45.559
would say that that right there is
probably the biggest difference between atheists and Christians

608
00:49:45.320 --> 00:49:49.719
is that we really really need to
know if what we believe is true,

609
00:49:50.199 --> 00:49:52.760
and the Christian is more on the
side of it. Feels good right now,

610
00:49:52.800 --> 00:49:55.559
so I just don't want to have
to think about it anymore. And

611
00:49:57.400 --> 00:50:01.760
trying to drag them into that uncomfortable
space of considering that you might be wrong

612
00:50:01.800 --> 00:50:07.519
about something you've believed your entire life, it's very difficult to do. It's

613
00:50:07.599 --> 00:50:14.079
so hard. It's why people lose
relationships, they lose partnerships, they lose

614
00:50:14.119 --> 00:50:16.679
family members because of this stuff,
because it's so hard for someone to face

615
00:50:16.760 --> 00:50:25.599
that uncomfortable truth that their beliefs might
meet that demise. And I don't know

616
00:50:25.880 --> 00:50:30.519
what it is about those of us
who were also raised with those same beliefs

617
00:50:31.320 --> 00:50:37.199
that causes us to not want to
be blissfully ignorant, because I know,

618
00:50:37.320 --> 00:50:42.360
for me, I needed to know
whether or not what I believed was true.

619
00:50:42.880 --> 00:50:47.480
I didn't want to be blissfully ignorant, but so many people do,

620
00:50:47.559 --> 00:50:51.599
and I guess that's one of the
differences. And I don't know where that

621
00:50:51.639 --> 00:50:55.119
comes from, because I was indoctrinated
the same way they were, but I

622
00:50:55.239 --> 00:51:00.599
was just not okay remaining blissully ignorant. And that is why why Satanism speaks

623
00:51:00.599 --> 00:51:06.239
to me so much, because the
people in it are very similar in that

624
00:51:06.280 --> 00:51:12.920
way. Is TST a nonprofit.
It is Is it a religious nonprofit?

625
00:51:13.559 --> 00:51:20.320
It is officially recognized as a as
a church. Yes. One thing that

626
00:51:20.360 --> 00:51:23.199
I read years ago, and again
this is getting into something you may not

627
00:51:23.599 --> 00:51:28.960
be aware of because you're not an
official spokesperson for test, is that in

628
00:51:29.119 --> 00:51:36.679
order to maintain your religious nonprofit status
with the federal government, there are a

629
00:51:36.679 --> 00:51:39.559
few things you have to do,
and one of those things is actively trying

630
00:51:39.599 --> 00:51:45.880
to recruit new members. It was
a requirement. And so when people would

631
00:51:45.960 --> 00:51:47.320
knock on doors or I would hear
atheists to go, oh, I'm so

632
00:51:47.360 --> 00:51:51.360
sick of these people knocking on my
door, I would kind of defend the

633
00:51:51.400 --> 00:51:53.800
religion and go that they kind of
have to to keep their status. They

634
00:51:53.880 --> 00:51:59.440
have to do some sort of community
outreach to try to reach people. So

635
00:52:00.199 --> 00:52:05.679
are you aware of any outreach that
TST does or is there any door knocking?

636
00:52:05.800 --> 00:52:09.239
Is there any It could be as
simple as we're having a public event.

637
00:52:09.400 --> 00:52:15.480
Here's a public advertisement. That might
check that box. But when you

638
00:52:15.519 --> 00:52:21.079
have public events, is there is
there ever a kind of a desire or

639
00:52:21.079 --> 00:52:25.280
attempt to say we'd like you to
join us based on these tenants? Uh,

640
00:52:25.679 --> 00:52:30.280
not at all. We are definitely
not knocking on doors. We don't

641
00:52:30.320 --> 00:52:39.480
stand on street corners, no bullhorns
yelling at Christians in front of churchess,

642
00:52:39.639 --> 00:52:46.719
Nope, nope. And yeah,
we definitely don't actively as far as I

643
00:52:46.800 --> 00:52:54.280
know, and I could be wrong, but we don't actively proselytize or try

644
00:52:54.360 --> 00:53:00.519
or try to bring people in.
Even when we have a public event like

645
00:53:00.559 --> 00:53:06.599
I mentioned. Next month we're celebrating
Soul Invictus and it's going to be a

646
00:53:06.639 --> 00:53:10.159
public party. There's going to be
a ritual at some times reach. I

647
00:53:10.199 --> 00:53:13.840
mean, you may not be trying
to convince someone, yes, but that's

648
00:53:13.840 --> 00:53:16.079
definitely outreached to the public. And
yeah, but it's it's like, come

649
00:53:16.119 --> 00:53:20.320
party with us. It's going to
be fun. It's there's at no point

650
00:53:20.360 --> 00:53:23.360
is it going to be like an
altar call and now after you've heard the

651
00:53:23.400 --> 00:53:30.679
word of Satan come forward. There's
nothing like that. And we do,

652
00:53:30.880 --> 00:53:35.079
we do get new members, but
I mean, I know, for me,

653
00:53:35.800 --> 00:53:40.199
nobody reached out to me. I
just I found the site online and

654
00:53:40.239 --> 00:53:46.880
I've filled out the membership application and
the membership chair got back to me that

655
00:53:47.039 --> 00:53:52.039
was it is, Is there a
cost associated if someone wanted to sign up?

656
00:53:52.239 --> 00:53:57.639
What what can they do and is
there is there like monthly fees,

657
00:53:57.920 --> 00:54:00.480
you know, to run the organization? Like what what can someone do if

658
00:54:00.480 --> 00:54:06.639
they would like to join? You
would have to look for a local chapter

659
00:54:06.679 --> 00:54:10.320
wherever you are, find their website
and fill out the membership application. There's

660
00:54:10.400 --> 00:54:16.719
absolutely no fee, And I can't
speak to how each individual congregation does it,

661
00:54:16.840 --> 00:54:23.159
but for my experience, it was
an online interview, and one of

662
00:54:23.199 --> 00:54:29.320
the things that was clear in the
interview was made clear to me was you

663
00:54:29.440 --> 00:54:32.920
understand that we are a religion,
right Like they wanted to make sure before

664
00:54:34.039 --> 00:54:37.519
you volunteer yourself for this that you
understood that it was And I'll admit the

665
00:54:37.519 --> 00:54:40.719
first time I heard that, I
was like, I viewed it more as

666
00:54:40.760 --> 00:54:47.360
a using the religious aspect for politics
for political reasons, like we talked about

667
00:54:47.719 --> 00:54:52.280
and when she emphasized that, no, but we actually are a religion too,

668
00:54:52.440 --> 00:54:55.679
even though we don't believe in Satan, and I had to do that.

669
00:54:55.800 --> 00:54:59.480
It's not the belief in Satan that
makes it the religion. It's the

670
00:54:59.480 --> 00:55:04.840
belief in the tenants. It's the
tenants. It is the rituals, and

671
00:55:04.920 --> 00:55:08.960
it is the invocation the community.
Yes, the ritual and then also the

672
00:55:08.960 --> 00:55:13.960
community aspect. All of that is
what makes it a religion. You said,

673
00:55:14.000 --> 00:55:15.960
we're going to get into that later. I think that's a good place

674
00:55:15.000 --> 00:55:20.599
to end. Is the community.
Okay, what is it about that?

675
00:55:20.920 --> 00:55:23.599
I'll say this too. A lot
a lot of Christians will talk about like

676
00:55:23.679 --> 00:55:27.639
how good their church is, and
they think when I say I'm an atheist

677
00:55:27.719 --> 00:55:30.360
or I don't believe in their religion, that I'm against all those wonderful things

678
00:55:30.400 --> 00:55:35.880
they do for the community and as
a part of their church community. And

679
00:55:35.920 --> 00:55:39.679
I love that stuff. I'm pro
all of that. It's the divisive nature

680
00:55:39.719 --> 00:55:44.000
that comes with it that I don't
like. So if you found a way

681
00:55:44.079 --> 00:55:51.000
to have community without and with inclusivity, right of all people, gay,

682
00:55:51.119 --> 00:55:55.360
trans, black, white, brown, everyone can come together and be a

683
00:55:55.360 --> 00:55:59.559
part of the community without saying,
well, these people are special and those

684
00:55:59.559 --> 00:56:02.320
people are too worldly and he has
hair past his collar, so he's going

685
00:56:02.360 --> 00:56:06.400
to hell, and uh, you
know, without all the judgment, I

686
00:56:06.480 --> 00:56:08.440
think is what I'm saying. I
think the religious community comes with a lot

687
00:56:08.480 --> 00:56:13.239
of judgment, a lot of backbinding, a lot of gossiping, a lot

688
00:56:13.239 --> 00:56:15.760
of like talking whisperers and like she's
this, and he's that And of course

689
00:56:15.960 --> 00:56:21.039
you know when you have that power, you end up with growing claims of

690
00:56:21.480 --> 00:56:25.840
sexual abuse or assault within churches.
Yo's not just you know the the trope

691
00:56:25.840 --> 00:56:31.519
that it's the Catholic church. It
happens across multiple denominations. And you know,

692
00:56:31.599 --> 00:56:36.159
underage girls tend to be in danger
and things like that and more so.

693
00:56:36.719 --> 00:56:39.000
And so if you can find a
way to do that where there are

694
00:56:39.079 --> 00:56:45.400
some checks and balances on that piece
and you're you're inclusive and you're not abusing

695
00:56:45.440 --> 00:56:47.440
that power, but you still got
to have that community that sounds like the

696
00:56:47.440 --> 00:56:51.559
best of all the worlds. Why
would you not want to do that?

697
00:56:51.599 --> 00:56:58.280
So what what is the TST community? Like? Ah? So just real

698
00:56:58.360 --> 00:57:00.559
quick to respond to what you said
about like the good stuff that churches do

699
00:57:01.480 --> 00:57:07.119
being for that like but it comes
with a cost, right, Like yes,

700
00:57:07.159 --> 00:57:15.039
there they might be collecting food for
the homeless, but at the same

701
00:57:15.079 --> 00:57:17.880
time they're going to preach their doctrine
to the homeless when they come in to

702
00:57:17.920 --> 00:57:24.119
eat. And when we do something
like if we volunteer at a soup kitchen,

703
00:57:24.280 --> 00:57:27.840
there's no like okay, but now
you have to listen to us talk

704
00:57:27.880 --> 00:57:34.119
about Satan and preach beliefs that are
ultimately harmful. And that's my beef with

705
00:57:35.079 --> 00:57:39.400
Christianity is that it's not just about
your personal belief it's that you're preaching those

706
00:57:39.440 --> 00:57:45.119
personal beliefs that are ultimately causing harm
to society because they inform actions that are

707
00:57:45.119 --> 00:57:50.760
harmful. And you know, personally, I don't think that we have that

708
00:57:50.840 --> 00:57:55.079
at TST. But humans need community. This is not something that is only

709
00:57:55.119 --> 00:58:00.880
for religious people, and it's not
fair that religious people think that only we

710
00:58:00.960 --> 00:58:06.119
get to have this. No,
these are aspects of being human. We

711
00:58:06.119 --> 00:58:14.960
were evolved to be a social species. There's studies that show the value in

712
00:58:15.079 --> 00:58:19.599
being a member of a church,
But what those studies show is that it's

713
00:58:19.599 --> 00:58:23.519
not about the belief. It is
the fact that people have a place to

714
00:58:23.599 --> 00:58:30.920
go and be around other humans,
and we get to have that without all

715
00:58:30.960 --> 00:58:37.639
the supernatural stuff that ultimately causes harm. So we hang out, we support

716
00:58:37.639 --> 00:58:45.239
each other, We do things like
seeing karaoke at a karaoke bar. We

717
00:58:45.360 --> 00:58:52.159
will march together at protests that are
related to our values. When are you

718
00:58:52.320 --> 00:58:59.280
planning on starting the war with the
Church of Satan come all religions eventually do

719
00:58:59.400 --> 00:59:01.320
it? Well? No, I
mean there's definitely conflict between the Church of

720
00:59:01.320 --> 00:59:07.480
Satan and TST. Mostly it's the
Church of Satan not liking us and saying

721
00:59:07.519 --> 00:59:09.760
that we're not real Satanists. They
are, and we're kind of like they

722
00:59:10.039 --> 00:59:17.760
claim and have h no, but
they're they have something similar to not our

723
00:59:17.880 --> 00:59:22.480
tenants, but they have their own
set of like guidelines, and theirs are

724
00:59:22.639 --> 00:59:28.039
much more individualistic, like oh,
is that the one that's more about indulgence

725
00:59:28.440 --> 00:59:31.639
indulgence? Yes, exactly, it's
not. It's we should have Church of

726
00:59:31.679 --> 00:59:37.960
Satan versus the debate right here on
dogmative I'm down, but yeah, I

727
00:59:38.000 --> 00:59:42.960
mean some of Satan, non Satan
violence, some of the some of them,

728
00:59:43.039 --> 00:59:45.880
you know, like I'm down with
with pleasure and the endorsement of of

729
00:59:46.119 --> 00:59:52.480
getting pleasure in this life. But
it's very much about just that. It's

730
00:59:52.519 --> 00:59:57.519
not about how you treat other humans. It's not about pursuit of justice,

731
00:59:57.559 --> 01:00:04.239
it's not about compassion, and so
for me, TST is what resonated even

732
01:00:04.280 --> 01:00:07.400
though yes, there are other forms
of Satanism out there, and but TSC

733
01:00:07.480 --> 01:00:09.800
is the much larger group now.
So that's why we don't really bother to

734
01:00:09.840 --> 01:00:13.519
engage much because it's like who are
you? Who are you again? I'm

735
01:00:13.519 --> 01:00:17.400
pretty sure you're over shots fired Church
of Satan. I say, I say,

736
01:00:17.400 --> 01:00:21.480
we get you on and we have
that talk. Yeah, I would

737
01:00:21.559 --> 01:00:22.920
like to know more about the differences. Eventually, I'd like to bring them

738
01:00:22.920 --> 01:00:27.280
on and see what they thought about
this podcast as well. It's it's interesting

739
01:00:27.320 --> 01:00:30.159
and again it's fun to play with
as well, because you know, ultimately

740
01:00:30.400 --> 01:00:35.679
you share very similar values, including
the equality piece right, and that Christianity

741
01:00:35.719 --> 01:00:38.239
shouldn't get special privileges in our society. I think we should all agree on

742
01:00:38.239 --> 01:00:44.719
that, including Christians from a from
a political standpoint. You know, that's

743
01:00:44.719 --> 01:00:47.480
something to me that's the biggest takeaway
from this, and I want Christians to

744
01:00:47.559 --> 01:00:52.800
hear this to go, oh,
you know, it's it's mostly about being

745
01:00:52.960 --> 01:00:58.360
nice and loving each other and not
giving special treatment to one particular religion.

746
01:00:58.400 --> 01:01:00.719
It's that what you guys are really
about. Yes, that's that's the entire

747
01:01:00.760 --> 01:01:07.119
point. Yeah, And you know, it can be hard. Atheists tend

748
01:01:07.159 --> 01:01:10.599
to be people who are I've heard
the term that's like hurting cats, you

749
01:01:10.599 --> 01:01:16.119
know, and so it's hard to
find a community of like minded people.

750
01:01:16.480 --> 01:01:20.960
And what I have found with TST
is that that's that's what I get out

751
01:01:20.960 --> 01:01:24.920
of it. I get to be
around people that share my values and who

752
01:01:25.000 --> 01:01:30.320
know how to have a good time, and it has enriched my life in

753
01:01:30.360 --> 01:01:36.840
that way. Listen, it's it's
hurting cats because you're trying to force them

754
01:01:36.880 --> 01:01:40.760
to do something they don't want to
do. But all the cats will show

755
01:01:40.800 --> 01:01:45.480
up at the same time for dinner, right, So if you do something,

756
01:01:46.599 --> 01:01:52.639
if you're if you're actively offering something
that is positive for humanity, you

757
01:01:52.639 --> 01:01:58.079
don't have to hurt anyone. Yeah, they'll they'll come and it's fun,

758
01:01:59.440 --> 01:02:01.480
all right. So is there a
website people should go to? Do you

759
01:02:01.519 --> 01:02:06.360
know? Is there like a Satana
Temple website? There is? What is

760
01:02:06.400 --> 01:02:07.480
it? Let's let's let's let them
know what that is. I don't want

761
01:02:07.480 --> 01:02:10.679
to I don't want to type on
here because we're recording differently than I normally

762
01:02:10.679 --> 01:02:15.239
do. And if I start,
it is just the Satanic Temple dot com

763
01:02:15.280 --> 01:02:21.559
and that'll take you to the national
website, the official and I'm sure there

764
01:02:21.599 --> 01:02:24.119
are locations there in like different chapters
exactly. You would have to look up

765
01:02:24.119 --> 01:02:27.840
your local chapter. If you're in
the New York City area, we are

766
01:02:27.960 --> 01:02:32.480
tst NYC if you're interested in just
knowing more about the history not only of

767
01:02:32.519 --> 01:02:37.760
TST, but Satanism in general.
Speak of the Devil by Joseph P.

768
01:02:37.920 --> 01:02:39.280
Laycock would be a good resource as
well, if you just want to read

769
01:02:39.360 --> 01:02:43.679
up on the history. It's it's
pretty accurate. Even though he himself is

770
01:02:43.679 --> 01:02:45.800
not a Satanist, he talked to
a lot of us. Very cool.

771
01:02:47.119 --> 01:02:49.920
Well, thank you. I can't
think, you know, for being willing

772
01:02:49.960 --> 01:02:54.039
to do this and sharing these things
with us. It's it's really interesting.

773
01:02:54.079 --> 01:03:00.039
I don't I don't know too much
you've said that I disagree with. I

774
01:03:00.079 --> 01:03:05.360
mean, it sounds pretty much on
point, other than the the stigma that

775
01:03:05.440 --> 01:03:09.239
comes along with it, which which
should be overcome by people like you,

776
01:03:09.360 --> 01:03:13.639
good people like you speaking out and
saying this is actually what we what we

777
01:03:13.679 --> 01:03:15.480
stand for. So I think it's
important. So thanks for doing the show.

778
01:03:15.599 --> 01:03:19.679
Absolutely. I had a great time, David. All right, and

779
01:03:19.679 --> 01:03:23.119
thanks so much for your continued support
on Patreon as well. We definitely appreciate

780
01:03:23.159 --> 01:03:27.440
you over there. All right,
guys, So that's it. The conversation

781
01:03:27.519 --> 01:03:30.920
continues at patreon dot com slash David
C. Smalley. We're not going to

782
01:03:30.960 --> 01:03:32.920
continue talking, but I want to
know what you have to say in the

783
01:03:32.960 --> 01:03:38.400
comments below the episode at patreon dot
com slash David C. Smalley. The

784
01:03:38.400 --> 01:03:42.639
phone number again to shoot me a
text is four two four three zero six

785
01:03:43.079 --> 01:03:47.480
zero seven nine eight. All right, until next time, please drive to

786
01:03:47.559 --> 01:03:52.039
let you know each other. Hail
sand Also that