WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.000 --> 00:00:05.679 Where am I in relationship to this customer? What persona are they? What 2 00:00:05.759 --> 00:00:09.640 problems or challenges do they have? What am I trying to accomplish in this 3 00:00:09.720 --> 00:00:19.160 conversation. You're responsible to meeting the customer wherever they are. You're listening to 4 00:00:19.199 --> 00:00:23.600 the Audible Ready Podcast. The show that helps you and your teams sell More 5 00:00:23.800 --> 00:00:27.760 Faster. Will feature sales leaders sharing their best insights on how to create a 6 00:00:27.760 --> 00:00:32.200 sales engine that helps you fuel repeatable revenue growth. Presented by the team at 7 00:00:32.240 --> 00:00:36.520 Force Management, a leader in B to B sales effectiveness. Let's get started. 8 00:00:38.719 --> 00:00:41.520 Hello, I'm Rachel lett Miller. Thank you for listening to the Audible 9 00:00:41.520 --> 00:00:44.759 Ready Sales Podcast. Joining me today as our own John Kaplin, Hi, 10 00:00:44.880 --> 00:00:48.439 John, Hi, Rachel, How you doing good? I'm doing well. 11 00:00:48.479 --> 00:00:54.200 I hope you are, and I know you love this topic we're tackling today, 12 00:00:54.399 --> 00:00:58.799 John, Today we are going to talk about discovery. As we've said 13 00:00:58.960 --> 00:01:03.679 a million times great, discovery is the gift that keeps on giving even beyond 14 00:01:03.759 --> 00:01:07.280 the initial sale, and we talk a lot about the value it brings to 15 00:01:07.400 --> 00:01:12.000 us as salespeople. But today we're going to talk about the value it brings 16 00:01:12.359 --> 00:01:18.239 your customer. Yeah, I think it's such a great topic. We have 17 00:01:18.319 --> 00:01:25.760 another podcast, as you know, with McMahon Revenue Builders, and we're constantly 18 00:01:25.799 --> 00:01:30.000 coming back to this topic of discovery is the most important part of the sales 19 00:01:30.040 --> 00:01:36.640 process. Discovering scoping, we believe are the most important and some of the 20 00:01:36.640 --> 00:01:42.319 most difficult for both the customer and for sellers. So just kind of putting 21 00:01:42.359 --> 00:01:46.840 some top line stuff in here, you discovery should always be two sided. 22 00:01:47.560 --> 00:01:51.719 What I mean by that is not only should you be learning, but the 23 00:01:51.760 --> 00:01:55.439 customer should be learning. Your questions should be so good that the customer should 24 00:01:55.439 --> 00:01:59.879 be learning. And then we kind of talk about this concept of persuasion, 25 00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:04.959 the art of persuasion, which really says the more you tell somebody that they 26 00:02:04.959 --> 00:02:10.080 have a problem, they're more they're going to resist. So I think what 27 00:02:10.159 --> 00:02:15.719 we're constantly trying to do is ask great discovery questions with the intent to get 28 00:02:15.719 --> 00:02:21.120 a customer to stand in the moment of their own pain to where they convince 29 00:02:21.199 --> 00:02:25.439 themselves that they have a problem, and therefore the urgency gets created and the 30 00:02:25.560 --> 00:02:30.240 urgency to fix it. And you know, it really is that simple. 31 00:02:30.800 --> 00:02:35.319 Rachel, I think that you know, when we practice this stuff from a 32 00:02:35.319 --> 00:02:38.680 customer's perspective. Everybody loves to be led, you know, and a customer 33 00:02:38.759 --> 00:02:42.800 loves to be led. They love to be led in a discovery process, 34 00:02:42.919 --> 00:02:46.159 provided that you can take them to a place that they can't get to on 35 00:02:46.280 --> 00:02:51.080 their own. And that's kind of a good caveat. You really got to 36 00:02:51.120 --> 00:02:53.599 be thinking about that. And the last thing I wanted to say is there's 37 00:02:53.639 --> 00:03:00.120 this saying and it says people rarely argue with their own conclusion, And when 38 00:03:00.159 --> 00:03:02.319 you really think about it, it's kind of funny at first, but then 39 00:03:02.319 --> 00:03:05.120 when you really think about it, you're like, well, no, of 40 00:03:05.159 --> 00:03:07.479 course not. When I come to a conclusion on something, I'm not arguing 41 00:03:07.479 --> 00:03:13.599 it myself. So the key is how do we do discovery so well that 42 00:03:13.680 --> 00:03:17.800 a customer feels like they're coming to their own conclusion? Very powerful thought there, 43 00:03:20.080 --> 00:03:23.840 Yeah, I mean I can't. I can even think about myself purchasing 44 00:03:23.919 --> 00:03:27.960 something and it's you know, typically there's some like technical challenge that hurts my 45 00:03:28.000 --> 00:03:30.039 head and I'm on the phone with a potential vendroom like can you just like 46 00:03:30.120 --> 00:03:34.080 help it? Like what do we do help me that it out? Right? 47 00:03:34.680 --> 00:03:38.680 Because as salespeople, right in discovery, we are gathering information that helps 48 00:03:38.759 --> 00:03:43.560 us match our solutions to our customer needs. But that art of discovery is 49 00:03:43.680 --> 00:03:50.280 really when you're having a conversation that the customer is getting value from. Yeah, 50 00:03:50.400 --> 00:03:53.240 and I can really empathize with what you just said or connect with what 51 00:03:53.280 --> 00:03:59.159 you just said, Like I am the easiest person on the planet to sell 52 00:03:59.199 --> 00:04:03.039 something to if you're good in discovery. For me, if you're good in 53 00:04:03.120 --> 00:04:06.840 discovery, I'm willing to slow dance. I'm actually willing to let you take 54 00:04:06.919 --> 00:04:10.439 the lead. And there's not a lot of things in my life that I'm 55 00:04:10.439 --> 00:04:13.319 willing to do that with other people. It's just I got one of those 56 00:04:13.319 --> 00:04:16.920 personalities. I like to control things. But when I'm working with a good 57 00:04:17.079 --> 00:04:21.279 seller, it is an absolute joy. But the flip side of that is 58 00:04:21.959 --> 00:04:27.199 it is horror when I'm working with a seller that is not good at this, 59 00:04:27.439 --> 00:04:31.160 and it's it's not just horror for me, it's horror for the seller 60 00:04:31.240 --> 00:04:34.839 that's you know, that's trying to approach me. So again, it's kind 61 00:04:34.879 --> 00:04:39.639 of like a slow dance, like I'm willing to be led in the dance 62 00:04:39.759 --> 00:04:42.600 provided that you can take me to a place I can't get to on my 63 00:04:42.680 --> 00:04:46.560 own and we talked about you want the customer to realize that they have a 64 00:04:46.639 --> 00:04:50.879 problem, and you also want to do it in a way that creates urgency, 65 00:04:50.920 --> 00:04:56.319 which is very difficult for people. Like we talk about find the pain 66 00:04:56.439 --> 00:05:00.839 and uncover the pain and make them bleed and drag them through the and all 67 00:05:00.879 --> 00:05:04.839 these kind of sayings that we come up with to kind of they're trying to 68 00:05:04.879 --> 00:05:10.680 give us spirit around this because it's so hard and it's also hard mentally to 69 00:05:10.720 --> 00:05:13.560 do. So. As you know, Rachel, we have something called negative 70 00:05:13.600 --> 00:05:18.120 consequences, and we teach people at Force Management how to get the customer to 71 00:05:18.160 --> 00:05:23.720 think about the negative consequences, stay in that moment of pain, and so 72 00:05:23.839 --> 00:05:27.120 what happens when you know, when that happens with the customer, and what 73 00:05:27.120 --> 00:05:30.240 did the customer wind up saying to you? What happened to the account, 74 00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:33.040 what happened to the relationships, what happened to the pricing? And so we're 75 00:05:33.040 --> 00:05:36.920 going deeper and deeper and deeper, and these are these negative consequences too. 76 00:05:38.279 --> 00:05:40.720 It's kind of like a fine line, Rachel, where the customer is kind 77 00:05:40.720 --> 00:05:45.519 of like, ouch, I give I get that, you get that we 78 00:05:45.639 --> 00:05:48.439 have a problem. Why don't you tell me what we can do about it? 79 00:05:48.639 --> 00:05:51.000 Now, I just want to give people spirit or what you can do 80 00:05:51.079 --> 00:05:57.399 about it if you reach that point in a conversation. Everybody's afraid to reach 81 00:05:57.439 --> 00:06:00.000 that point. But in reality, less than one percent of the time does 82 00:06:00.040 --> 00:06:04.680 a customer actually go to feel like they've gone too far in discovery that they're 83 00:06:04.800 --> 00:06:08.319 like pushing you back and saying, you know, I get that we have 84 00:06:08.360 --> 00:06:12.279 a problem. So that's like, don't think about that there. And when 85 00:06:12.279 --> 00:06:16.680 we say negative consequences, you're not being negative. You're getting the customer to 86 00:06:16.720 --> 00:06:21.160 think about their problems or challenges, and it so often comes to them in 87 00:06:21.199 --> 00:06:28.560 a negative way like negative consequences, that it creates urgency. And your job 88 00:06:28.600 --> 00:06:31.319 as a seller is to make sure at the end of these conversations they believe 89 00:06:31.360 --> 00:06:36.279 that they spoke about something with you that has to be fixed. That's what 90 00:06:36.319 --> 00:06:40.800 the most elite sellers do. And then the last thing I would say, 91 00:06:40.879 --> 00:06:45.800 Rach is, you know, building credibility in the conversation. So many times, 92 00:06:46.199 --> 00:06:47.319 you know, I told you just a pet peeve of mine. So 93 00:06:47.360 --> 00:06:50.759 many times people try to go personal and they try to go like, hey, 94 00:06:50.959 --> 00:06:55.160 is that your family, and that picture there, whatever, what keeps 95 00:06:55.199 --> 00:06:59.079 you up at night? Blah blah blah blah blah. Those books, if 96 00:06:59.079 --> 00:07:01.120 you got them on your shelf, throw them out. It's human behavior. 97 00:07:01.199 --> 00:07:04.639 Doesn't work that way, at least it doesn't anymore. And what I think 98 00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:09.759 is also one thing we got to be careful of. When people think about 99 00:07:10.040 --> 00:07:13.639 doing discovery, they're like, oh, man, I'm getting them to rat 100 00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:16.560 out the competition, my competition. And that's not what you want to try 101 00:07:16.600 --> 00:07:20.560 to get a customer to do. You want them to focus on the problem. 102 00:07:21.040 --> 00:07:24.879 Let them come to their own reality that you know what, I have 103 00:07:24.920 --> 00:07:28.480 a vendor right now that's supposed to be helping me with this problem that isn't 104 00:07:28.879 --> 00:07:31.360 and I still have this problem. So I always like to say, Rachel, 105 00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:36.959 let's be loyal to those not present. Focus on the problem and the 106 00:07:36.959 --> 00:07:42.079 competitor or the vendor. It's going to raise their head around them. The 107 00:07:42.199 --> 00:07:46.759 reason why they still have that problem is because they're with that competitor. Does 108 00:07:46.800 --> 00:07:49.040 that make sense right? They can draw their own conclusions there. You don't 109 00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:54.519 have to point it out. You're pointing out the challenge they have. And 110 00:07:55.240 --> 00:07:58.800 you know, you make some great points there about approaching these converx stations with 111 00:07:58.879 --> 00:08:03.800 empathy not coming out a minute negative way, even though it's negative consequences. 112 00:08:03.800 --> 00:08:09.079 You're trying to illuminate right to the customer ways themselves. But your ability to 113 00:08:09.279 --> 00:08:13.120 have the conversation it opens the door for your being able to share how you 114 00:08:13.160 --> 00:08:16.439 can fix it. The customer probably knows they got a problem. Yeah, 115 00:08:16.439 --> 00:08:20.360 I mean, I'm thinking about the challenges that I'm dealing with right now. 116 00:08:20.680 --> 00:08:24.879 I know they're there. Yes, I could have a conversation about it, 117 00:08:24.959 --> 00:08:28.480 more like a therapy session. Can you help me? That's what it is. 118 00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:31.039 And you know another concept, John, you mentioned slowed answer, which 119 00:08:31.080 --> 00:08:35.120 I love. That concept is what we talk about when we're talking about discovery, 120 00:08:35.639 --> 00:08:41.159 uncovering customer problems, getting them to persuade themselves. Another one we often 121 00:08:41.279 --> 00:08:43.879 use is on ramps. We say that there are several on ramps to a 122 00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:48.039 customer conversation, and I think that applies here. Can you talk a little 123 00:08:48.080 --> 00:08:52.120 bit about what we mean by that and why it's relevant to value a customer 124 00:08:52.200 --> 00:08:56.240 gets from discovery. I like it, And if you don't mind, let's 125 00:08:56.360 --> 00:09:01.799 keep that dance analogy going is that typically two people can't lead in a dance 126 00:09:01.960 --> 00:09:05.639 because it just doesn't work. And I'm not an expert dancer, but you 127 00:09:05.679 --> 00:09:09.440 know, I know, like in ballroom dancing or whatever, they teach people 128 00:09:09.480 --> 00:09:13.399 like, Okay, sometimes you're leading and sometimes you're following, and you've got 129 00:09:13.440 --> 00:09:18.120 to be good at both. So we have this saying that says wherever you 130 00:09:18.200 --> 00:09:20.440 are, there you go. Because people are like, Okay, what step 131 00:09:20.519 --> 00:09:22.639 next? What do I do first? What I do second? What do 132 00:09:22.720 --> 00:09:26.960 I do third? And reality is in these conversations there are a lot of 133 00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:31.159 different on ramps. There's on ramps with different people, There's on ramps with 134 00:09:31.240 --> 00:09:37.399 different problems, there's on ramps with different departments or different outcomes. So in 135 00:09:37.480 --> 00:09:41.679 order to be truly present in a discovery conversation, you have to ask yourself 136 00:09:41.720 --> 00:09:45.519 where am I? I mean, it's really you might hear Kaplin say it 137 00:09:45.559 --> 00:09:48.639 in a meeting sometime to himself, or he might say it out loud Where 138 00:09:48.679 --> 00:09:50.759 am I? And people might think I'm crazy? But what I'm trying to 139 00:09:50.759 --> 00:09:56.559 do is get grounded with where am I in relationship to this customer? What 140 00:09:56.639 --> 00:10:01.639 persona are they? First? And foremost, what problems or challenges do they 141 00:10:01.679 --> 00:10:05.440 have? What am I trying to accomplish in this conversation, and so you're 142 00:10:05.600 --> 00:10:09.919 responsible to meeting the customer wherever they are. You know that we talk about 143 00:10:09.960 --> 00:10:13.960 that, Rachel, that you get delegated to those that you sound like. 144 00:10:13.240 --> 00:10:18.159 And when you don't approach a conversation like being cognizant of on ramps, what 145 00:10:18.279 --> 00:10:22.519 happens is you wind up missing that. You're like talking to an economic buyer 146 00:10:22.559 --> 00:10:26.799 about the tactical things that have to get done on a maybe decision requirements or 147 00:10:26.799 --> 00:10:30.840 what have you, or the other way around, you're talking to a technical 148 00:10:30.919 --> 00:10:35.080 champion and you're pounding them on the business implications of what's going on and your 149 00:10:35.200 --> 00:10:39.840 right to talk about these things. You've got to understand the technical issues, 150 00:10:39.879 --> 00:10:46.039 you've got to understand the business implications. But it's your job to stay focused 151 00:10:46.039 --> 00:10:50.519 in the slow dance and Rachel at Forest Management, you know what we've spent 152 00:10:50.639 --> 00:10:54.200 twenty years doing. I talk about the buckets, Like when you go into 153 00:10:54.279 --> 00:10:58.639 a conversation, you got to fill up three buckets. No matter who you 154 00:10:58.720 --> 00:11:03.399 are, You've got to fill up positive business outcomes, required capabilities, and 155 00:11:03.600 --> 00:11:09.759 metrics before you can even pivot and talk about yourself. So that being said, 156 00:11:09.840 --> 00:11:11.840 I go, okay, I know I got to get the positive business 157 00:11:11.879 --> 00:11:15.320 outcomes. I know, I got to get the require capabilities, and not 158 00:11:15.480 --> 00:11:18.559 just to require capabilities. I got to get them in a way that they 159 00:11:18.559 --> 00:11:20.720 are favorable for me and for the customer, which means they have to be 160 00:11:20.759 --> 00:11:26.480 influenced by my differentiation. Okay, and I know we have to understand how 161 00:11:26.519 --> 00:11:31.600 they're going to measure success because today's measurements become tomorrow's proof points. Okay, 162 00:11:31.960 --> 00:11:37.600 let's simplify this. Let's just go into conversations knowing I got to understand the 163 00:11:37.600 --> 00:11:41.720 business implications. I got to understand the technical require capabilities in a way that 164 00:11:41.759 --> 00:11:45.600 they're favorable for me, influenced by my differentiation. And I got to understand 165 00:11:45.639 --> 00:11:48.840 how the customer's going to measure success. Okay, smart guy, who are 166 00:11:48.840 --> 00:11:54.480 you talking to today? Okay? What part of this outcome that I'm going 167 00:11:54.559 --> 00:11:58.720 to need? By the way, Rachel, before I start talking about how 168 00:11:58.720 --> 00:12:00.879 we do it, how we do it different or better, and where we've 169 00:12:00.919 --> 00:12:03.279 done it before, I got to get those three buckets filled up. So 170 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:09.200 I ask myself, what role is this person that I'm talking to? What 171 00:12:09.320 --> 00:12:11.039 do they play? Is this an economic buyer? Am I going to talk 172 00:12:11.080 --> 00:12:16.000 to them? About technical requirements, probably not A. Is this an economic 173 00:12:16.039 --> 00:12:20.399 buyer? Am I going to talk to them about business implications? Probably yes? 174 00:12:20.919 --> 00:12:24.600 Am I going to understand how we're going to measure success? Probably yes. 175 00:12:24.919 --> 00:12:28.120 So the whole point there is we want you to go into conversations and 176 00:12:28.200 --> 00:12:35.159 first understand from an outside end point of view, where are this customers coming 177 00:12:35.200 --> 00:12:39.000 from, what are the positive business outcomes, what are the technical requirements, 178 00:12:39.039 --> 00:12:43.320 and what are the metrics? Okay, who am I talking to? I 179 00:12:43.399 --> 00:12:48.559 have to adjust my language based upon who I'm talking to, because if you 180 00:12:48.600 --> 00:12:50.559 don't, you get delegated to those that you sound like. And at the 181 00:12:50.639 --> 00:12:54.200 end of the day and only then, Rachel, you know, that's the 182 00:12:54.200 --> 00:12:58.840 first part of the backswing we talk about like a golf swing. That's the 183 00:12:58.879 --> 00:13:01.639 backswing of the golfing in order to really pivot and smash that ball down the 184 00:13:01.679 --> 00:13:05.399 middle of the fairway, we have to align that to Okay, now that 185 00:13:05.440 --> 00:13:09.000 I've earned the right to tell you, let me tell you how we do 186 00:13:09.080 --> 00:13:13.480 that, How you do what well? How we do those require capabilities? 187 00:13:13.919 --> 00:13:16.159 Let me tell you how we do it differently or better than anybody else and 188 00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:20.519 where we've done it before. That's what I mean, Rachel when I talk 189 00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:26.000 about that slow dance, and the slow dance is customers willing to be led 190 00:13:26.360 --> 00:13:30.080 if you can take them to a place they can't get to on their own. 191 00:13:30.279 --> 00:13:33.120 If you're asking them questions that you could have got from somebody else, 192 00:13:33.399 --> 00:13:37.960 that's not going to work. If you're doing things like asking them about technical 193 00:13:37.039 --> 00:13:43.240 capabilities when they're really focused on the business implications, that's not going to work. 194 00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:46.039 So that's what we mean, Rachel, by just making sure that we 195 00:13:46.480 --> 00:13:50.399 really align ourselves. And it's our responsibility too. If you want to slow 196 00:13:50.480 --> 00:13:54.000 dance and you want to lead, you got to know how to lead. 197 00:13:54.639 --> 00:14:01.159 Wow. That was a mouthful, wasn't it. Both those on ramps help 198 00:14:01.159 --> 00:14:03.279 with that alignment. John. And when you say you get delegated to who 199 00:14:03.519 --> 00:14:07.679 you sound like it's not great for you as a salesperson, right, you're 200 00:14:07.679 --> 00:14:09.639 going to get stuck in the lower runs of the organization. But the other 201 00:14:09.879 --> 00:14:15.600 flip side of that is that what you're bringing to that particular person is not 202 00:14:15.919 --> 00:14:20.639 valuable. They are going to move you to somebody where you can provide value. 203 00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:24.399 The customer is not getting the value. So all of this that you're 204 00:14:24.440 --> 00:14:28.399 talking about with the slow dans and the on ramps. If you execute it 205 00:14:28.480 --> 00:14:35.679 correctly, it's you are getting the right information you need to craft an awesome 206 00:14:35.080 --> 00:14:41.919 opportunity and get a great deal. But also your customer is gaining value from 207 00:14:41.960 --> 00:14:48.200 every interaction that they have with you, which pays dividends multiples of dividends. 208 00:14:48.399 --> 00:14:50.919 It's like, Rachel, you get instant feedback, like I want reps. 209 00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:56.000 If you're listening to this, like just open your eyes. If you're on 210 00:14:56.120 --> 00:14:58.919 zoom, open your eyes and look what's the customer doing? Are they lead? 211 00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:01.919 Are they looking at you? Are they looking down at their watch? 212 00:15:01.960 --> 00:15:07.200 Are they doing answering messages or typing on their computer? You get instant feedback, 213 00:15:07.279 --> 00:15:11.080 man on this one, Like if you're leading them and they're happy with 214 00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:15.279 the dance, they're with you, they're asking you questions, Hey, what 215 00:15:15.320 --> 00:15:18.759 did you mean about that? I didn't quite understand that question. If you 216 00:15:18.799 --> 00:15:22.559 think you get through like a ten minute conversation and you're the only one talking 217 00:15:22.639 --> 00:15:26.159 at the end, they just kind of go like you find yourself going yeah, 218 00:15:26.200 --> 00:15:28.559 and you know, like, who's the dude that ran across when he 219 00:15:28.559 --> 00:15:31.120 says and that's all I have to say about that? Who was that, 220 00:15:31.240 --> 00:15:35.320 dude, what movie was that Forrest Gump? When he's done spewing and then 221 00:15:35.519 --> 00:15:39.559 the customer doesn't even look back. Customer's not even looking at him, he 222 00:15:39.559 --> 00:15:43.080 says. And that's all I have to say about that. If you feel 223 00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:46.759 like you're in that position, then it's not working. You're not leading. 224 00:15:46.840 --> 00:15:50.279 Does it make sense Rachel? Yeah? Absolutely, And everything you've said here 225 00:15:50.360 --> 00:15:56.279 really goes to having a great customer conversation. But maybe John, you can 226 00:15:56.480 --> 00:16:00.759 kind of break down what good looks like when you have a customer folks discovery 227 00:16:00.799 --> 00:16:04.039 session. What does that feel like as you're filling up those buckets? What 228 00:16:04.159 --> 00:16:07.159 happens? Yeah? I know. Okay, so what you're asking me is 229 00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:10.480 like from the customer's point of view, kind of like, how does it 230 00:16:10.519 --> 00:16:14.159 feel? I like that? So, as I said earlier, you know, 231 00:16:14.200 --> 00:16:18.039 the customer has convinced themselves that they have a problem, and that's the 232 00:16:18.120 --> 00:16:21.600 ideal situation. They're like, they're owning the problem and say okay, and 233 00:16:21.679 --> 00:16:25.960 their mindset is switching to well, let's talk about how what we can do 234 00:16:26.039 --> 00:16:30.399 about that, and they should be telling you what they need and if you've 235 00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:33.320 done it right, it's aligned to what you provide they'll be like, Okay, 236 00:16:33.559 --> 00:16:37.120 I think I need this or I think I need that, and you've 237 00:16:37.159 --> 00:16:41.360 done such a good job. They don't even realize that it's your differentiation they're 238 00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:45.120 talking about. They don't even realize that it's your solution they're talking about, 239 00:16:45.440 --> 00:16:49.320 because you've done discovery so well, you've made it their idea and the customer 240 00:16:49.399 --> 00:16:53.399 wants a next step. Okay, when you're getting off these calls and they're 241 00:16:53.440 --> 00:16:56.080 like, okay, and that's all I have to say about that, and 242 00:16:56.080 --> 00:16:59.960 the customer's like, hey, it's really nice to meet you or whatever, 243 00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:04.000 or you're not good shape. You're not in good shape, stop the presses. 244 00:17:04.359 --> 00:17:07.319 You know, a lot of times, what I'll do Rachel in those 245 00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:11.359 situations when I feel it's just not working, I ask a customer like, 246 00:17:11.400 --> 00:17:14.559 hey, what do you like about what we talked about today? And then 247 00:17:14.599 --> 00:17:17.920 what caused you pause? And it always helps me when I feel like I'm 248 00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:19.839 not hitting the mark, you know, And it's not always when I'm just 249 00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:22.319 feeling and I hit the mark. I actually do it, like on every 250 00:17:22.359 --> 00:17:26.000 sales call, like mister missus customer, what did you like most about what 251 00:17:26.039 --> 00:17:30.680 we talked about? And it should be like well, I think you understand 252 00:17:30.680 --> 00:17:33.519 my problem, and I think I have a real good understanding of you know, 253 00:17:33.559 --> 00:17:37.519 what your solution can do. I mean, that's heaven right. Well, 254 00:17:37.599 --> 00:17:40.240 give me a couple of things that cause you pause. Well, John, 255 00:17:40.599 --> 00:17:44.079 I don't know how much your solution costs. You know, I know 256 00:17:44.160 --> 00:17:47.279 I'm doing a good job at the end of a call when somebody says that 257 00:17:47.359 --> 00:17:49.319 to me, I really like what we talked about, but I'm a little 258 00:17:49.359 --> 00:17:52.920 hesitant because I don't know what it costs. That means I wasn't talking about 259 00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:56.680 features and functions and talk trying to talk about pricing. You know, I'll 260 00:17:56.680 --> 00:18:00.240 get a lot of people debate me on that. Oh they should know you're 261 00:18:00.279 --> 00:18:03.640 hiding something, na I don't think so. I think when that comes up, 262 00:18:03.680 --> 00:18:06.079 I say, mister MSUs customer, I promise you were going to talk 263 00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:08.319 about the cost, but I want to do it in ways that so I 264 00:18:08.440 --> 00:18:15.079 make sure that what I'm saying totally reflects your problem and the challenges. And 265 00:18:15.119 --> 00:18:18.799 then if we do that right, the cost will be just kind of like 266 00:18:18.839 --> 00:18:22.799 a return on investment. And I've had really really good success with that. 267 00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:27.039 And then other things is that they have an urgency and that they're they're kind 268 00:18:27.039 --> 00:18:32.400 of genuinely interested in how you do it, and they're the ones asking about 269 00:18:32.559 --> 00:18:34.200 have you ever gotten off a call? And the customer's like, hey, 270 00:18:34.279 --> 00:18:37.279 you know, let's talk about next steps, and you're like, holy smokes, 271 00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:40.720 I got a little lazy there for a second, like I was just 272 00:18:40.799 --> 00:18:44.359 going to get off this phone and the customer's asking for the next steps. 273 00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:48.039 It happens. You know, we're making a lot of these calls every day, 274 00:18:48.119 --> 00:18:51.039 and you know, sometimes you're just going to feel those things and thank 275 00:18:51.079 --> 00:18:53.200 god, that's a good sign where the customer says, hey, Rachel, 276 00:18:53.759 --> 00:18:56.799 when are we going to have the next call? So you can tell me 277 00:18:56.920 --> 00:18:59.599 like what you're going to sell me and how you're going to sell it to 278 00:18:59.640 --> 00:19:03.759 me, and just celebrate that, know that you know you just missed something 279 00:19:03.799 --> 00:19:06.480 there. But it's you know, I chuckle when somebody says that, Yeah, 280 00:19:06.559 --> 00:19:08.960 I mean, thanks for keeping the conversation going, mister missus customer. 281 00:19:10.039 --> 00:19:11.960 Let me get grounded here here, I think are the next steps? And 282 00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:15.640 that's awesome. But how many times, Rachel, we get off the phone 283 00:19:15.160 --> 00:19:19.079 and we feel like we're just like Forrest Gump, And that's all I have 284 00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:22.519 to say about that, and the customers like, nice to meet you, 285 00:19:22.680 --> 00:19:27.680 see you later click holy smokes, right right, because you build this great 286 00:19:27.680 --> 00:19:32.720 momsum, you need to continue that. And we have some great content on 287 00:19:32.759 --> 00:19:36.279 what we call owning the next step. Make sure you're owning the next step. 288 00:19:36.680 --> 00:19:40.599 I'm going to link that in the show notes. Probably a good time 289 00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:45.960 to bring up this concept of the what we heard email great way a customer 290 00:19:47.000 --> 00:19:51.319 continues to benefit from that discovery session. Talk a little bit about what we 291 00:19:51.359 --> 00:19:52.960 do. Yeah, I like that because we've been swimming around a little bit. 292 00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:56.319 Rachel like, we know that customers. You know, this is about 293 00:19:56.440 --> 00:20:02.160 customers reaction, right, and we know by data that says, you know 294 00:20:02.240 --> 00:20:06.400 that seller deficit disorder. The customers do not believe that we understand their business, 295 00:20:06.440 --> 00:20:10.279 and most of them don't believe that we listen very well. And it's 296 00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:14.160 not an indictment. I'm talking about myself too. I love the sales profession, 297 00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:18.480 but that's just a reality. Those survey results don't lie, and they've 298 00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:22.160 been out there for about fifty years. So what you got to say to 299 00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:27.160 yourself is I need to demonstrate that I heard the customer, that I'm listening. 300 00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:30.279 What better way to do that than to start about you know, we 301 00:20:30.319 --> 00:20:33.720 call about it. What we heard email, Well, what we heard is, 302 00:20:33.799 --> 00:20:37.240 mister missus customer. What I heard was, here's an ideal one rage. 303 00:20:37.720 --> 00:20:41.799 What I heard was, these are the positive business outcomes you're trying to 304 00:20:41.839 --> 00:20:45.839 achieve. In order to achieve those positive business outcomes, these are the minimum 305 00:20:45.880 --> 00:20:51.599 required technical capabilities that you talked about. I say minimum. What I mean 306 00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:53.200 by that is I'm not trying to minimize it, but I'm trying to say 307 00:20:53.240 --> 00:20:57.599 these are must haves. Okay. And then we talked about how you're going 308 00:20:57.640 --> 00:21:00.920 to measure success, Well, you want I don't know what, Rachel. 309 00:21:00.680 --> 00:21:04.920 Most people on this listening to this right now, they can't say that at 310 00:21:04.920 --> 00:21:10.640 the end of a conversation. They can't send what we heard email. Okay. 311 00:21:10.680 --> 00:21:14.279 What we heard was basically me talking to you for an hour about my 312 00:21:14.359 --> 00:21:17.920 features and functions. That's what we heard on the last call, and that's 313 00:21:17.960 --> 00:21:21.599 why people don't come back to you. That's why they don't answer those emails. 314 00:21:21.960 --> 00:21:23.319 Okay, So what do you do about it? You didn't have a 315 00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:27.400 great call, You're trying to send something that's kind of like what we heard. 316 00:21:29.079 --> 00:21:32.920 Just turn it into something positive, mister missus customer. What I like 317 00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:34.359 to be able to do is be able to follow up with you and talk 318 00:21:34.359 --> 00:21:40.119 to you about the business implications from our conversation. I don't feel like I 319 00:21:40.160 --> 00:21:44.720 did a very good job with you talking to you about what the business implications 320 00:21:44.759 --> 00:21:48.079 are. So I have some ideas on what I read, but I'd like 321 00:21:48.119 --> 00:21:52.279 to talk to you more specifically about that. Just be honest. What we 322 00:21:52.440 --> 00:21:57.799 heard should include how's theive business outcomes require, capabilities and metrics, how they're 323 00:21:57.839 --> 00:22:03.759 going to measure success if it doesn't for some reason. Wherever you are there, 324 00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:07.720 you go, that's where you're going to go. You're going to call 325 00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:10.519 them back. You're going to ask to talk to them again, and you're 326 00:22:10.519 --> 00:22:12.319 going to say, I'd like to spend a little bit more time talking about 327 00:22:12.599 --> 00:22:17.599 the business implications or I'd like to spend a little bit more time talking about 328 00:22:17.880 --> 00:22:21.200 how we measure success. And I got to tell you, man, like 329 00:22:21.599 --> 00:22:25.319 when you do it right, and you did hear that and they said that. 330 00:22:25.839 --> 00:22:30.079 Customers more probably going to say to you, hey, that was awesome, 331 00:22:30.200 --> 00:22:32.519 Rachel. You know, if you showed it to him, I call 332 00:22:32.559 --> 00:22:34.720 it like a ten finger presentation. A lot of times I'll have like one 333 00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:38.160 or two or three slides, which is what we heard. Here's what we 334 00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:42.000 heard. Here are the positive business outcomes, here's the technical required capabilities, 335 00:22:42.119 --> 00:22:48.200 and here are the metrics. And the ultimate ultimate compliment is when the customer 336 00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:52.480 says, can you send those to me? Because that means you were right 337 00:22:52.359 --> 00:22:56.200 and you did a good job. That's great. So be sure to check 338 00:22:56.240 --> 00:23:00.839 out kailing it today. I don't know about you. I'm killing it. 339 00:23:02.319 --> 00:23:06.119 You got to you're warmed up. I hope you're doing later. Is that 340 00:23:06.240 --> 00:23:10.920 Easter holiday? Man, I'm all warmed up. Well. As we've said, 341 00:23:11.079 --> 00:23:12.920 John, I think there's a ton of value in what you've shared today, 342 00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:18.319 a lot of steps that we can take as salespeople to just improve give 343 00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:21.440 us. You know, we say sales is a game of inches. It 344 00:23:21.519 --> 00:23:23.880 gives you a couple more inches some of these things that you're talking about. 345 00:23:25.000 --> 00:23:29.000 Yeah, and as we said, discovery helps you as a seller, but 346 00:23:29.039 --> 00:23:34.480 it also the way that you helped deliver value to your customer early in the 347 00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:38.200 sales process. So wrap us up with the bottom line as we leave here 348 00:23:38.200 --> 00:23:41.839 today. Yeah, I'm gonna be kind of cautious on this bottom line because 349 00:23:42.319 --> 00:23:45.160 I know you're going to put great content in these show notes, and what 350 00:23:45.200 --> 00:23:48.640 I want people to do is go read the show notes, man, go 351 00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:52.720 read the content that Rachel's going to put in here, because it's outstanding content. 352 00:23:53.160 --> 00:23:57.440 All these concepts we're talking about, deep dive into them and get really, 353 00:23:57.480 --> 00:24:00.720 really comfortable with them. So that's kind of like my first bottom line. 354 00:24:02.039 --> 00:24:04.720 And then the next thing I just say is, just know that discovery 355 00:24:04.839 --> 00:24:08.680 is really, really important. It's probably the most important part of the sales 356 00:24:08.720 --> 00:24:14.119 cycle, and not just for you. Does everybody understand that, not just 357 00:24:14.240 --> 00:24:18.400 for you. From a customer's point of view, when you do good discovery, 358 00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:23.359 they feel like you understand their problem. They feel like you heard them, 359 00:24:23.480 --> 00:24:26.880 or you listen to them, because that's what discovery is. It's two 360 00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:33.640 sided. Also, it's important to go outside in. You have to earn 361 00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:36.319 the right to be able to talk about what you do and how you do 362 00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:38.720 it. And you don't earn the right by just starting off talking about your 363 00:24:38.759 --> 00:24:44.319 features and functions. Don't make assumptions about my problem. The more you tell 364 00:24:44.359 --> 00:24:47.640 me I have a problem, the more I'm going to resist you. Okay, 365 00:24:47.680 --> 00:24:51.640 So what I also want you to know is that you always have an 366 00:24:51.680 --> 00:24:55.160 opportunity to recap. Wherever you are, there, you go, Okay, 367 00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:59.400 here the business outcomes. Oops, I don't have business outcomes. No problem 368 00:24:59.519 --> 00:25:02.880 redirect. At this point, I'd like to be able to say, these 369 00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:07.160 are the business outcomes that we've heard, These are the technical required capabilities, 370 00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:08.680 and these are the metrics. I feel like we did a really really good 371 00:25:08.759 --> 00:25:14.720 job on the technical requirements and on the metrics. But I'm not sure done 372 00:25:14.759 --> 00:25:18.160 I've made the connection. Don't blame it on the customer, blame it on 373 00:25:18.200 --> 00:25:22.960 yourself. I'm not sure I've made the connection of the business implications. Like 374 00:25:22.599 --> 00:25:27.319 you know your CEO talking about the number one problem we have is renewals or 375 00:25:27.319 --> 00:25:32.240 what have you. Just wherever you are, there you go, and don't 376 00:25:32.240 --> 00:25:36.240 forget. You get delegated to those that you sound like. You get delegated 377 00:25:36.279 --> 00:25:38.839 to those that you sound like. Jump in the water's great. Learn how 378 00:25:38.880 --> 00:25:42.920 to just say to yourself, wherever I am, there I go. There's 379 00:25:42.960 --> 00:25:48.119 no scripts, there's no there's outcomes, but there's no scripts on step one, 380 00:25:48.200 --> 00:25:52.319 step two, step three, step four. And the minute I learned 381 00:25:52.359 --> 00:25:56.000 that, Rachel, I felt so much comfort more comfortable in sales. I 382 00:25:56.039 --> 00:25:59.680 know I got to have these three buckets filled up, and that's when I 383 00:25:59.720 --> 00:26:03.319 know I pivot to talk about myself. That really simplified it for me. 384 00:26:03.960 --> 00:26:08.240 That's a great way to simplify. A great takeaway for everybody listening to this 385 00:26:08.359 --> 00:26:12.960 episode, John Kaplan, thank you, my pleasure go get them all right. 386 00:26:14.119 --> 00:26:17.640 Thank you, and thank you to all of you for listening to the 387 00:26:17.680 --> 00:26:22.759 Audible Ready Sales Podcast. At Force Management, we're focused on transforming sales organizations 388 00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:29.920 into elite teams. Our proven methodologies deliver programs that build company alignment and fuel 389 00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:34.160 repeatable revenue growth. Give your teams the ability to execute the growth strategy at 390 00:26:34.160 --> 00:26:38.640 the point of sale. Our strength is our experience. The proof is in 391 00:26:38.720 --> 00:26:45.079 our results. Let's get started. Visit us at forcemanagement dot com. You've 392 00:26:45.079 --> 00:26:48.359 been listening to the Audible Ready podcast. To not miss an episode, subscribe 393 00:26:48.359 --> 00:26:52.400 to the show in your favorite podcast player Until next time.