WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.040 --> 00:00:07.040 Hey, guys, what's up. This is Call and I'm here with the 2 00:00:07.160 --> 00:00:10.599 Orthodox Squad and we're back for another episode. Today. We've got a very 3 00:00:10.640 --> 00:00:17.239 special guest is Jay Diet. We're going to be disting the key the key 4 00:00:17.239 --> 00:00:21.800 points of thought vigence between our theology and Catholic theology, seeing as we do 5 00:00:21.839 --> 00:00:26.440 live in a Weston world and that is a pretty major way of how our 6 00:00:26.480 --> 00:00:30.160 society is kind of function. Jay, could you stop by introducing yourself for 7 00:00:30.239 --> 00:00:33.479 those of us that don't know who you are. Yeah, my name is 8 00:00:33.560 --> 00:00:36.960 Jay Dyer. I do a website called Jason Elysis dot com. I've been 9 00:00:36.960 --> 00:00:42.119 doing that for about ten eleven years. I cover a lot of geopolitics. 10 00:00:42.200 --> 00:00:46.039 I cover a lot of philosophy, film reviews. I do a lot of 11 00:00:46.359 --> 00:00:50.840 media work with people like Alex Jones. I've done a Tucker special recently. 12 00:00:51.799 --> 00:00:54.200 So I cover a lot of areas. But we also do a lot of 13 00:00:54.240 --> 00:01:00.039 religious debates, apologetics, and particularly focusing on things like atheism, Islam and 14 00:00:59.840 --> 00:01:04.879 m Catholicisms, difference between us and the difference with us an orthdoxy that between 15 00:01:04.959 --> 00:01:11.840 us between Roman orthoxy as one franc Yeah, so I'm sure like lots of 16 00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:15.519 our fan base would know who you are, but you can't be I'm sure 17 00:01:15.560 --> 00:01:19.359 lots of new viewers hopefully come see this and they find out go down the 18 00:01:19.439 --> 00:01:23.560 rabbit hole. And I've seen so many converts that are converted because they've watched 19 00:01:23.680 --> 00:01:27.760 your content, So it's always a LUs And I think I'm going to just 20 00:01:27.799 --> 00:01:34.079 start by yeah, and also to add that not only converts, even like 21 00:01:34.280 --> 00:01:37.280 create the Orthodox people from Serbiany, We're like, yeah, what's shay And 22 00:01:37.359 --> 00:01:46.760 they got back in the church things. That's good. That's good. So 23 00:01:47.040 --> 00:01:49.760 I'm going to start by just going for the elephant in the room. The 24 00:01:49.840 --> 00:01:55.079 main issue of divergence is people, primacy and authority. Jay, could you 25 00:01:55.120 --> 00:01:59.599 start by elaborating than that? And yeah, So I do agree with that, 26 00:01:59.680 --> 00:02:07.480 but I think that the reason that papal premisee came to be has theological 27 00:02:07.519 --> 00:02:13.479 predecessors. So it's actually a more fundamental theological difference that's the result even of 28 00:02:13.520 --> 00:02:20.719 the papal stuff. So certainly Philioqua and all that matters, and certainly the 29 00:02:20.759 --> 00:02:23.919 position of the Bishop of Rome matters, but I think that prior to the 30 00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:30.639 ecclesiological differences in ten fifty four or whatever, there's already beginning to be a 31 00:02:30.639 --> 00:02:36.199 divergence between how the two groups would see the Triad. So when we begin 32 00:02:36.240 --> 00:02:43.000 to have more of an Augustinian approach to the triad in the West after successive 33 00:02:43.039 --> 00:02:50.919 centuries after you know, after Toledo, after the Carolinian period, the Franks 34 00:02:51.159 --> 00:02:54.520 go in an explicitly Philioquist direction. And so the more that we see that 35 00:02:55.000 --> 00:03:01.520 Augustinian theology dominating the West, the less we see the prevalence of the monarchia 36 00:03:01.560 --> 00:03:07.599 of the Father. Now that doesn't mean that Augustine explicitly and totally denied the 37 00:03:07.639 --> 00:03:12.400 monarchy of the Father, but it certainly gets It becomes a difficult thing in 38 00:03:12.439 --> 00:03:15.719 this position, and there's definitely a difference between the Cappadocean model of the triad 39 00:03:16.039 --> 00:03:22.439 that's accepted at the Second Ecumenical Council of Constant Noble one and the Augustinian model. 40 00:03:22.479 --> 00:03:29.000 So actually root the ecclesiological divergence in the triad in the theological differences, 41 00:03:29.080 --> 00:03:32.439 because that will really condition what we call the ordo theology, the order of 42 00:03:32.520 --> 00:03:37.240 theology, and that means the way that we go about in terms of first 43 00:03:37.280 --> 00:03:44.039 principles, doing our theological dogmatics. So you'll notice the Church historically did dogmatics 44 00:03:44.120 --> 00:03:49.240 from the place of Trinitarian theology, first with nice and constant Noble one, 45 00:03:49.479 --> 00:03:53.319 and then Christology for the next success of councils, all the way up until 46 00:03:53.319 --> 00:03:57.159 eight and nine. And you could argue even well, I'm excusing at seven 47 00:03:57.199 --> 00:04:00.560 and eight, and you could argue the ninth Palamite Synods of a while all 48 00:04:00.599 --> 00:04:08.680 are really just the outworkings of correct Trinitarian and Christological formulations, so basically the 49 00:04:09.439 --> 00:04:14.800 verging triads. In my view, I agree with the argumentation of doctor Philip 50 00:04:14.800 --> 00:04:17.839 Scharrard in his book Church Papacy Schism, where he notes that this imbalance in 51 00:04:17.879 --> 00:04:24.079 the notion of the triad is partly what gives way to the imbalance and ecclesiology. 52 00:04:24.560 --> 00:04:27.879 So you had an older model the first thousand years of the Church that 53 00:04:27.959 --> 00:04:31.279 I think is the Orthodox model which it's maintained, which is synodality and collegiality. 54 00:04:31.959 --> 00:04:36.519 There's canonical privileges for certain bishops. But what we get with the rise 55 00:04:36.519 --> 00:04:40.800 of the Philioque, and I don't think it's accidental in the West, is 56 00:04:40.920 --> 00:04:45.199 also the rise of the place of the Bishop of Rome, and Scharrard I 57 00:04:45.199 --> 00:04:48.920 think convincingly argues that there's a metaphysical imbalance in the theology of Rome. That 58 00:04:49.040 --> 00:04:58.720 law also leads to this sort of wonky wacky ecclesiology that plays itself out in 59 00:04:58.720 --> 00:05:01.839 the rise of the papacy being an autocrat, and this is admitted. Now, 60 00:05:01.879 --> 00:05:08.439 this amazing part is that multiple Roman Catholic historians and theologians like looks like 61 00:05:08.800 --> 00:05:15.800 Kongar first after nine hundred years Phosian schism by Dvornik. I mean, these 62 00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:20.240 have really led the Roman Catholic Church to kind of do a revisionist stance on 63 00:05:20.560 --> 00:05:26.480 the first thousand years. And admit, if you saw the recent Alexandrian document 64 00:05:26.519 --> 00:05:29.759 that we did a live stream on, this is a papally approved commission basically 65 00:05:29.800 --> 00:05:33.279 admitting about ninety nine five percent of the Orthodox points on ecclesiology in the first 66 00:05:33.279 --> 00:05:39.920 millennium. So I would take that to be pretty significant. I mean, 67 00:05:39.959 --> 00:05:45.480 the fact that Rome is admitting these things in these theological admissions is pretty pretty 68 00:05:45.560 --> 00:05:50.360 damaging, especially how that contradicts what stated very clearly at Vatican One, and 69 00:05:50.399 --> 00:05:56.040 that's of course the Roman Catholic Council where they dogmatize the position of the papacy. 70 00:05:56.079 --> 00:05:58.920 So we have really these admissions. And I don't mean I want to 71 00:05:58.959 --> 00:06:00.600 be clear because people must understood. I guess when I was saying this on 72 00:06:00.639 --> 00:06:04.120 a livestream with Sneck and Day or the other day. I'm not saying that 73 00:06:04.319 --> 00:06:09.319 the Alexandria document from Rome means that it's now time to unite with Rome. 74 00:06:09.360 --> 00:06:13.680 I am saying that the Alexandria Document admits our positions and therefore means that the 75 00:06:13.759 --> 00:06:17.920 Roman Catholic Church was incorrect, incorrect, primarily in a Vatican one. And 76 00:06:17.959 --> 00:06:21.680 the way that system works is that if Vatican one is correct, the system 77 00:06:21.720 --> 00:06:27.600 is incorrect. You see, it's not a piecemeal thing because it's premised on 78 00:06:27.720 --> 00:06:30.319 the auction of the papacy. The papacy is the means by which you identify 79 00:06:30.399 --> 00:06:34.439 the true Church, and the Roman Catholic system and the Vatican One which dogmatize 80 00:06:34.519 --> 00:06:38.800 that point is false, then their whole conception of the church is false. 81 00:06:39.480 --> 00:06:44.759 And again the eighty Document and the Alexandria Document are essentially admitting our points, 82 00:06:45.079 --> 00:06:47.959 and so therefore Roman Catholicism cannot be true even on its own document, in 83 00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:51.240 its own formulations. So what do we have here, Well, we have 84 00:06:51.319 --> 00:06:58.279 again rival systems within systems. So my view of the Latin Church is, 85 00:06:58.399 --> 00:07:00.399 if you read the Michael Welton book, is a great chapter on the Gregorian 86 00:07:00.480 --> 00:07:06.319 Reforms, which is what Konggar admits was a radical revolution in the structure of 87 00:07:06.319 --> 00:07:12.279 the church in the West. The Gregorian Reforms are really where we get the 88 00:07:12.319 --> 00:07:18.439 Franco papal medieval notions of the papacy and the pope as this autocrat and geopolitical 89 00:07:18.480 --> 00:07:23.399 figure. Right, we have documents like dictatas Pope, which is a famous 90 00:07:23.480 --> 00:07:29.199 document outlining all of these kind of outlandish things and claims that are necessary for 91 00:07:29.480 --> 00:07:32.680 you to believe to be saved about the temporal power of the papacy. Likewise, 92 00:07:33.079 --> 00:07:39.079 sanctum makes temporal supremacy a doctrine that is necessary for salvation as well. 93 00:07:39.120 --> 00:07:42.240 If you do not submit to the temple supremacy of the Bishop of Rome, 94 00:07:42.680 --> 00:07:45.560 you cannot be saved. When I'm saying to them, is adamantly clear about 95 00:07:45.600 --> 00:07:49.360 that. So I think that we can see that the Roman Catholic position itself 96 00:07:50.639 --> 00:07:59.360 on the temporal powers has just exploded right after the eleventh century due precisely to 97 00:07:59.519 --> 00:08:05.759 these factors spiritual, theological and geopolitical. All of those play into how we 98 00:08:05.879 --> 00:08:09.920 got the modern papacy as we know it, that evolves and develops even according 99 00:08:09.920 --> 00:08:13.759 to their own system, all the way up until the time about it can 100 00:08:13.800 --> 00:08:16.920 one that Newman idea of development that's just fundamentally different from what we have in 101 00:08:16.920 --> 00:08:22.920 the Orthodox view, which is synodality, collegiality, the equality of bishops. 102 00:08:22.959 --> 00:08:26.360 But there might be canonical privileges that are given in certain councils, and we 103 00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:31.160 see this at Nicea when it ranks Rome, and then you know what, 104 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:35.720 Alexander or Rome, Alexandria Antioch right, And then we get the question later 105 00:08:35.759 --> 00:08:39.519 on of New Rome a constant the number one, and the cannons has given 106 00:08:39.559 --> 00:08:46.879 the place next to Old Rome. That's not accepted at Chalcedon by Leo because 107 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:54.519 Leo says that it's unfair to Alexandria to automatically rank New Rome second, and 108 00:08:54.559 --> 00:08:58.639 it has nothing to do with papal supremacies. So papal apologies have taken Cannon 109 00:08:58.679 --> 00:09:03.360 twenty eight of Chalcedon as an example of Oh look, Leo is rejecting cannons 110 00:09:03.399 --> 00:09:07.840 because he has the ultimate theory as a pope to decide what canons behind the 111 00:09:07.919 --> 00:09:13.360 church that's not at all what happens. He's appealing to the fact that Nicia 112 00:09:13.480 --> 00:09:18.799 gave Alexandria the second place, and so it's not fair to do that. 113 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:24.200 Later on, however, the Roman Church did eventually accept Constantinople as second to 114 00:09:24.759 --> 00:09:28.919 Old Rome, namely the papacy. So what this shows us is that nothing 115 00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:35.240 about this canonical structure is inherently magically from God, I mean, in divine 116 00:09:35.279 --> 00:09:39.840 providence. There's no divine law that says that because Rome is first in the 117 00:09:39.840 --> 00:09:43.279 canons or first in the chemical councils, that it is infallible or any of 118 00:09:43.279 --> 00:09:48.960 the other Vatican One claims. And again, you know, the recent documents 119 00:09:48.039 --> 00:09:52.120 bear out the bear out this fact. So obviously we could go a lot 120 00:09:52.159 --> 00:09:56.360 more into that, but I think just to get back to that theological point, 121 00:09:56.720 --> 00:10:00.679 you know, the Philioquay doctrine is tied into this and is is part 122 00:10:00.679 --> 00:10:05.039 and parcel with the rise of the medieval papacy because the medieval era, what 123 00:10:05.159 --> 00:10:09.279 we actually see is like theologically speaking, it's almost as if the church the 124 00:10:09.279 --> 00:10:13.559 pope sends the spirit to the Church. And that's because there's this imbalance in 125 00:10:13.720 --> 00:10:18.759 the triad to where the Holy Spirit ends up being subject, being subordinated excusing, 126 00:10:18.679 --> 00:10:24.240 because he supposedly now lacks the power of causing a person, which is 127 00:10:24.399 --> 00:10:31.639 in Roman callity theology somehow the defining characteristic of what makes the son equal to 128 00:10:31.679 --> 00:10:33.399 the father. So the son is equal to the father because he sends the 129 00:10:33.480 --> 00:10:39.879 Holy Spirit. So if equality of divinant he is now tallied up on the 130 00:10:39.919 --> 00:10:43.320 basis of being a cause, then the Holy Spirit is less divine because he 131 00:10:43.320 --> 00:10:46.120 doesn't cause anybody. He doesn't cause a person, so he lacks an essential 132 00:10:46.200 --> 00:10:50.039 power or property that the father and the son share together. And again that 133 00:10:50.120 --> 00:10:54.720 whole model, whether it's Saint Photius and the distagogy or whether it's Saint gregor 134 00:10:54.720 --> 00:11:00.480 Palamos in the Appodictic treatise, that whole model is skewed precisely because it is 135 00:11:00.519 --> 00:11:07.200 removing the notion of hypostatic property and what is proper to the father in terms 136 00:11:07.240 --> 00:11:09.799 of what picks out his person. Cause picks out the person of the father. 137 00:11:11.519 --> 00:11:15.519 Therefore there cannot be a co cause or a secondary cause in the sun. 138 00:11:16.159 --> 00:11:18.879 So the son cannot participate in the hyposthetic property of what picks out the 139 00:11:18.960 --> 00:11:22.679 father. And that was said by Saint Photius a long ago. It was 140 00:11:22.720 --> 00:11:28.000 said by Saint Gregor Palamas, and the Appeticular treatise basically rewording and restating a 141 00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:31.360 lot of the argumentation of Saint Photius, and that's where we are. So 142 00:11:31.399 --> 00:11:35.519 what happens, Well, if the spirit gets subordinated, then now the Holy 143 00:11:35.559 --> 00:11:43.480 Spirit is something that is not fully present unless Rome grants it to you, 144 00:11:43.480 --> 00:11:48.039 you see, and that's exactly what happens in the medieval period when the Roman 145 00:11:48.080 --> 00:11:52.240 bishop now has to appoint every bishop in the world. There's no way that 146 00:11:52.279 --> 00:11:56.759 didn't. Everybody knows this didn't exist in the first thousand years. In fact, 147 00:11:56.799 --> 00:12:01.200 the recent Alexandria document admits this. The Roman bishop didn't confirm all bishops 148 00:12:01.200 --> 00:12:03.679 in the world. But if you think that the Roman bishop is really the 149 00:12:03.720 --> 00:12:09.559 conduit of the Holy Spirit, right then it actually kind of makes sense and 150 00:12:09.639 --> 00:12:13.399 so that's why he would want that power and that authority. But really this 151 00:12:13.519 --> 00:12:18.519 is just a deformation and an aberration that has led to Vatican One into now 152 00:12:18.559 --> 00:12:22.240 a lot of the embarrassment. I mean, if people are really honest about 153 00:12:22.279 --> 00:12:26.600 it, Chad and Alexandria are really embarrassments because they're really just admitting most of 154 00:12:26.600 --> 00:12:31.120 our positions. So I've seen the charity document before, I can't. I 155 00:12:31.159 --> 00:12:35.919 mean it's pretty I think it's a bit pretty incriminating. And the other one 156 00:12:35.039 --> 00:12:39.639 is I wanted to point out that the Varnick is actually a Catholic story and 157 00:12:39.679 --> 00:12:46.320 theology an authodox one, and that book the Photinskis in delves into the topic 158 00:12:46.360 --> 00:12:48.600 and basically says, you know, you guys are right about Photius. So 159 00:12:50.720 --> 00:12:54.480 I think that's very interesting. And to some up for you guys watching what 160 00:12:54.559 --> 00:12:58.159 Jay said about the video, quay, what's happening there is it spits the 161 00:12:58.200 --> 00:13:03.360 singular source in the Godhead into by the double possession, and it thus fits 162 00:13:03.360 --> 00:13:07.120 the adoration to two adorations of two divinities. So the essence is one because 163 00:13:07.120 --> 00:13:13.080 it's one source and one Father. So to confess two principal sources is to 164 00:13:13.159 --> 00:13:20.759 confess two essences in a diad, and absolutely argumentation of fogus correct. So 165 00:13:20.120 --> 00:13:24.919 by adoration, I mean the worship given by man to God the Father by 166 00:13:24.960 --> 00:13:30.879 worshiping his son in spirit and truth. So worship is solely a creaturely act. 167 00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:35.200 God is both a monad and the triana, so he's a monad in 168 00:13:35.360 --> 00:13:39.519 essence, but tried in how his persons relate to creation. The Trinity is 169 00:13:39.519 --> 00:13:43.960 a monad in essence, but not in persons. So we have to make 170 00:13:43.960 --> 00:13:50.559 this distinction, which I feel like people say, you know, that's why 171 00:13:50.600 --> 00:13:56.639 we're not wholly fear is stick because we do believe that in essence God is 172 00:13:56.759 --> 00:14:01.919 one. So a short bit of is that apologetics there when they say that 173 00:14:01.960 --> 00:14:07.799 you you're a polytheist because there's three gods. No, there's three persons in 174 00:14:07.879 --> 00:14:11.879 the one God. That's a distinction that has to be made. So basically 175 00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:16.799 what's happened is that what Jay is saying that because of the filioc where we 176 00:14:16.840 --> 00:14:22.559 now have this notion that developed over time of people primacy and authority, and 177 00:14:22.759 --> 00:14:28.080 these two issues have caused a plethora of other theological difference that I've continued to 178 00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:33.120 diverge over the years in there's completely different ways. One of these things is 179 00:14:33.200 --> 00:14:39.200 I think, well, we all know the Immaculate Conception in purgatory. Could 180 00:14:39.240 --> 00:14:43.679 you explain when you think that, because okay, just a quick point. 181 00:14:43.759 --> 00:14:48.639 I find that with some of these doctrines, like the Immaculate Conception, they're 182 00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:54.200 very very recent. Why do you think they've decided now they want to bring 183 00:14:54.240 --> 00:15:00.000 them up. Jay, that's a good point and a good question. Sometimes 184 00:15:00.039 --> 00:15:07.600 I think that Roman Catholicism historically will define a doctrine because they see it expedient 185 00:15:07.679 --> 00:15:11.120 at that time to do so. So, for example, even though this 186 00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:15.840 is not a dogma, certain devotions, for example, will rise at a 187 00:15:15.919 --> 00:15:20.879 time when they see it useful for combating a Protestant error. So, for 188 00:15:20.039 --> 00:15:24.279 example, and the counter Reformation, Roman Catolic Church and the Jesuits were very 189 00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:30.279 much into promoting the notion of eucharistic adoration. So adoration arose as a kind 190 00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:37.720 of a full piety way to counteract the argumentation of the reformers. I think 191 00:15:37.759 --> 00:15:41.919 likewise, when it comes to doctrines like the Immaculate conception, that might be 192 00:15:41.960 --> 00:15:48.279 a that might have had a political expedient component at that time that the Roman 193 00:15:48.360 --> 00:15:52.679 Church wanted to sort of beef up. It's a it stances against certain things. 194 00:15:54.200 --> 00:15:56.919 I think vat It Canto is an example of this as well, where 195 00:15:56.039 --> 00:16:03.000 Vada Can two is a politically geopolitically obedient council as well. It happens because 196 00:16:03.039 --> 00:16:07.279 they think that it'll be this way to lure Protestants back, to lure Orthodox 197 00:16:07.320 --> 00:16:11.120 back. So that's a big part of the motivations I think at times why 198 00:16:11.159 --> 00:16:17.879 they do it. But I think that another reason is that some of these 199 00:16:17.919 --> 00:16:23.879 doctrines are novelties and their aberrations, and so when they become controversial because of 200 00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:27.320 the nature of the Roman Catholic system, if the papacy can define it, 201 00:16:27.399 --> 00:16:32.840 then it's supposedly no longer up for debate. Right. So if if there's 202 00:16:32.840 --> 00:16:37.000 a controversial doctrine, by the nature of that system, if it might expose 203 00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:42.200 or cause embarrassment or damage to the system, too dogmatically define it would then 204 00:16:42.320 --> 00:16:48.039 for the Roman Catholic Pius it would end the debate. So that's another reason 205 00:16:48.039 --> 00:16:51.759 they do it, is that, uh, all right, people are questioning 206 00:16:51.759 --> 00:16:56.279 this thing. That's kind of absurd, so let's let's dogmatically define it. 207 00:16:56.279 --> 00:16:59.159 I mean, those would be my guesses as to why something is that late. 208 00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:03.200 Another reason it's late is that it doesn't have early testimony. I mean, 209 00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:07.920 we shouldn't overlook the obvious, which is that the immaculate conception is bound 210 00:17:07.000 --> 00:17:15.279 up with a very rigorous Augustinian view of libido dominande and human anthropology. It's 211 00:17:15.319 --> 00:17:19.240 also bound up with Augustine's confusion of nature in person, in anthropology and in 212 00:17:19.279 --> 00:17:23.039 the triad as well, and so you're going to get this mass down off 213 00:17:23.119 --> 00:17:29.640 of you. That then affects his view of the status of infants, you 214 00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:33.039 know, infant baptism, infant damnation, which is admitted in the Papal documents. 215 00:17:33.039 --> 00:17:37.960 By the way, if you look at the Papal the Holy Office of 216 00:17:37.079 --> 00:17:44.200 statement on infant baptism and limbo the limbo children, it admits that this was 217 00:17:44.240 --> 00:17:48.799 really the dominant view after Augustine. And then we get those statements in Denzinger. 218 00:17:48.200 --> 00:17:51.319 I can pull it up if we need to talk about Denzing already. 219 00:17:51.319 --> 00:17:56.240 But there's early Middle Ages begins to temper this doctrine with the Roman cather idea 220 00:17:56.319 --> 00:18:00.319 of limbo of infants. So that's a when the answer I guess to say 221 00:18:00.359 --> 00:18:03.119 that, well, there's just not a lot of early testimony to some of 222 00:18:03.160 --> 00:18:06.640 these things, and so they feel the need, I think, to vindicate 223 00:18:07.400 --> 00:18:11.039 the system as we propped up at all costs, because it's supposed to be 224 00:18:11.079 --> 00:18:15.359 an unfalsifiable system, I mean, the Papal system. Other words, when 225 00:18:15.400 --> 00:18:18.440 they bring it up, sometimes what I find is that they don't care about 226 00:18:18.440 --> 00:18:22.160 the consensus. Patron clearly the Immaculate conception is not the consensus patrim even by 227 00:18:22.200 --> 00:18:26.240 your own scholars. Like if you look at Acquinas, you will get Augustine. 228 00:18:26.559 --> 00:18:30.839 You're the two main guys for you. They don't believe in the Immaculate 229 00:18:30.839 --> 00:18:37.920 conception. Aquinas specifically wrote apologetics against the Immaculate conception. So that's another issue 230 00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:41.680 we diverge. We have a notion of the consensus patron. The reason we 231 00:18:41.720 --> 00:18:45.000 can say that Augustine was wrong about one specific thing, or a different stent 232 00:18:45.079 --> 00:18:48.160 was wrong about one specific thing is because they might have deviated in some way 233 00:18:48.160 --> 00:18:52.920 from the consensus patron. We believe, however, that the consensus of the 234 00:18:53.000 --> 00:18:57.000 Church fathers is not a doctrine that we can just develop later on and turn 235 00:18:57.039 --> 00:19:03.400 into something else. Absolutely another thing also, I think so I just wanted 236 00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:07.920 to say regarding the Immaculate conception, isn't that linked with Also, they have 237 00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:12.559 a different view than us on original sin. They believe in original guilt and 238 00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:17.319 have the idea of original guilt Pine them as well. They will say, 239 00:19:17.480 --> 00:19:22.480 they will say nowadays they don't believe in original guilt, but there are periods 240 00:19:22.519 --> 00:19:26.759 and again that's why that limbo doctrine from the Holy Office is really important because 241 00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:30.920 it does admit that from the time of Augustine up to Gregory the Great, 242 00:19:30.920 --> 00:19:37.119 up until the like maybe nine hundreds or the year one thousand, original guilt 243 00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:41.079 and mass down Nada. That means the damned mass of everybody in Adam, 244 00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:45.559 including infants. That was the normative you in the West. So that's when 245 00:19:45.559 --> 00:19:49.319 they begin to temper it in the Middle Ages with the Limbo of infants doctrine, 246 00:19:49.599 --> 00:19:52.079 which is eventually, by the way, dogmatized. So it's odd to 247 00:19:52.119 --> 00:19:57.200 me that the Holy Office would say that you could now kind of doubt limbo. 248 00:19:57.240 --> 00:20:00.640 You don't have to hold to it, because it's clearly in Denziger is 249 00:20:00.640 --> 00:20:04.079 clearly dogmatic. But and I don't mean to cut you off there, Hattie. 250 00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:08.000 I was just going to say that we have to be careful because if 251 00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:11.640 you say that, oh, you guys believe in original Girl, they will 252 00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:15.319 pull out the modern Catechism, which doesn't which denies original Girl. That's what 253 00:20:15.359 --> 00:20:18.960 I was going to say. It depends on who you're talking to. That's 254 00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:21.839 what I find with catholicis that you could speak to one and they will believe 255 00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:25.599 in a doctrine of original sin. It's almost identical to us. You speak 256 00:20:25.640 --> 00:20:30.519 to another one, it's like, no, they don't, So that's not 257 00:20:30.079 --> 00:20:33.160 I don't know. It's not as united as the papastick things. It brings 258 00:20:33.319 --> 00:20:37.119 unity, but it still allows people to hold completely different theologies and absolutely you 259 00:20:37.160 --> 00:20:40.880 know where united. Well, just look at the fact that you could be 260 00:20:40.920 --> 00:20:45.279 a Uniate or a Melkite and say you only believe in seven echomenical councils and 261 00:20:45.720 --> 00:20:48.039 say that I don't care about the Council Trent and purgatory and all the stuff, 262 00:20:48.079 --> 00:20:51.960 which clearly in the Roman Catolic system you don't have the right to reject 263 00:20:52.039 --> 00:20:56.839 Trent. On the melk Kite official website, I don't know if it was 264 00:20:56.920 --> 00:21:03.240 in Australia or America, it actually said in seven echemenical councils on the diocese 265 00:21:03.319 --> 00:21:08.799 website right the other another thing that was speaking about Limbosa Middle Place. That's 266 00:21:08.799 --> 00:21:12.519 another issue that I want to bring up. Purgatory. We have this thing 267 00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:21.039 called Hades, but it's significantly different from purgatory. So they believe that you 268 00:21:21.119 --> 00:21:26.920 saw on the ghost purification for entering heaven, and we don't share the doctrine 269 00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:30.039 in the same way. It's nuanced, Jake, could you elaborate on that. 270 00:21:30.319 --> 00:21:37.119 Yeah, One important element to not overlook in this in terms of purgatory 271 00:21:37.480 --> 00:21:41.960 is the notion of indulgences. You can't really separate those two views in the 272 00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:45.359 Roman Catholic system, which of course Orthodoxy doesn't have the doctrine of indulgences. 273 00:21:45.480 --> 00:21:52.839 So in the Roman Catholic system they will believe that sin incurs a twofold penalty, 274 00:21:53.400 --> 00:21:57.480 a temporal debt, and an eternal debt. It's an internal debt if 275 00:21:57.480 --> 00:22:03.640 it's a mortal series sin, a temporal debt if it's only a venial sin. 276 00:22:03.079 --> 00:22:10.680 But a mortal sin can also have both temporal and temporal and eternal consequences. 277 00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:18.559 So the basis of the doctrine indulgence is that the debt that you owe 278 00:22:18.359 --> 00:22:22.799 in confession, it can be forgiven when the priest gives you absolution. But 279 00:22:22.920 --> 00:22:29.880 that's only the eternal debt. The temporal debt is still outstanding. And they'll 280 00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:33.359 cite text like where David prays to God that you know he repents for having 281 00:22:34.119 --> 00:22:37.000 your Riah killed, and then God says, I've forgiven you, but the 282 00:22:37.079 --> 00:22:41.599 child will still die, and so they'll see see you still have these payments. 283 00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:45.240 The weird part is that it becomes this system based in the early canons. 284 00:22:45.240 --> 00:22:48.599 Because in the early in the early Church, for example, the cannons, 285 00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:51.319 it would say, you know, if you cheat on your wife, 286 00:22:51.400 --> 00:22:55.640 the bishop might impose a penance of two years where you don't partake at the 287 00:22:55.599 --> 00:22:57.759 Euchrist something like this. Right, So the idea is that, oh, 288 00:22:59.039 --> 00:23:02.640 let's tabulate how days is that. Let's say it's one year. Okay, 289 00:23:02.680 --> 00:23:04.559 so you have a three hundred and sixty five year temporal debt that you owe. 290 00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:08.720 And because in the canons of the ancient Church, a bishop if he 291 00:23:08.799 --> 00:23:14.079 saw you as repentant because he could forgive you. There is the idea that 292 00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:22.240 certain devotions and actions can forgive the temporal debt. So purgatory exists to pay 293 00:23:22.240 --> 00:23:25.680 off the temporal debt that you owe. So maybe you committed a bunch of 294 00:23:25.720 --> 00:23:29.799 sins, you went to confession, you die the next day, but you 295 00:23:29.880 --> 00:23:33.759 haven't paid off the four thousand, three hundred and thirty two days of temporal 296 00:23:33.519 --> 00:23:37.759 payment in purgatory that you owe. I'm not joking. That's how ridiculous it 297 00:23:37.839 --> 00:23:42.839 is, like this weird being counter system. So that's where they derived all 298 00:23:42.880 --> 00:23:47.359 of this, and that in part is why Luther, for example, you 299 00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:51.359 know, railed against Johan tats Old, a monk who is saying, every 300 00:23:51.359 --> 00:23:55.599 time a coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs. So 301 00:23:55.640 --> 00:23:59.119 if you pay money for the indulgences, you're getting your loved ones out of 302 00:23:59.160 --> 00:24:02.920 purgatory. And that was an abuse, and it was clearly, you know, 303 00:24:03.119 --> 00:24:06.920 a silly money making racket. So Luther was correct to call that out, 304 00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:10.920 and he's absolutely correct as well that that doesn't exist in the first thousand 305 00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:15.200 years of the Church. There's none of this. There's no payments indulgence system 306 00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:18.319 of a bunch of being counting. It's crazy, but it is what it 307 00:24:18.359 --> 00:24:21.480 developed in the Roman Caolic system, and it is an integral to their theology 308 00:24:21.559 --> 00:24:25.720 because it's bound up with the notion of the temporal debts, as we said, 309 00:24:25.720 --> 00:24:30.279 that are due after and that's what purgatory is really connected to. So 310 00:24:30.319 --> 00:24:33.440 you can't divorce it from that. We have to keep that in mind. 311 00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:40.960 And if you read Saint Mark of Emphasis as Homilies against the Latins after the 312 00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:45.119 Council of Florence, he points out, you know, the absurdity of the 313 00:24:45.240 --> 00:24:48.359 Orthodox not being able to the Orthodox could never accept the a curdity of this 314 00:24:48.440 --> 00:24:52.480 notion of a temporal fire. So that's another important thing we have to keep 315 00:24:52.519 --> 00:24:56.759 in mind, is that there's also this thing as a created fire of God. 316 00:24:56.319 --> 00:25:00.359 Paul says that our God is an all consuming fire. That means God 317 00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:03.839 is an uncreated energy of fire. When the burning bush is burning, it's 318 00:25:03.880 --> 00:25:07.920 not a creative fire, it's the uncreated fire of God's presence. So God 319 00:25:07.960 --> 00:25:11.079 has not I created fire, so there's no there's no notion of this. 320 00:25:11.319 --> 00:25:15.920 Again, it's bound up with the Roman Catholic theology of created grace, so 321 00:25:15.960 --> 00:25:18.559 all of those things are connected. But um yeah, I think that that's 322 00:25:18.559 --> 00:25:22.960 the key thing that we have to remember remember with infant limbo, and it 323 00:25:22.039 --> 00:25:26.799 is dogmatized. I think somewhere in the thirteen hundreds I can find the exact 324 00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:30.759 thing on this, but if you're looking for an I did write an essay 325 00:25:30.799 --> 00:25:36.279 on this, critiquing Taylor Marshall because Taylor Marshall actually fell into a bunch of 326 00:25:36.319 --> 00:25:41.799 mistakes on this, and I went into the development of the Roman Calvic view, 327 00:25:41.160 --> 00:25:45.680 particularly as we get up past limbo in the Middle Ages. I think 328 00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:49.559 it's in the thirteen hundreds being dogmatized infant limbo and then by the time of 329 00:25:49.599 --> 00:26:03.200 the recent Pontypical Commission statement on infant limbo basically being optional. You know why 330 00:26:03.240 --> 00:26:07.759 I just want to bring up is why does this matter for those watching in 331 00:26:07.880 --> 00:26:11.799 matters? Because we have a doctrine called extra Ecclesium, not the salves. 332 00:26:12.440 --> 00:26:18.880 Basically, what that means is that there's only one true church. We have 333 00:26:18.079 --> 00:26:22.400 this idea of one true church. We don't why do we have to spend 334 00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:27.000 our time attacking other Christians dominations when we can just be Orthodox and that then 335 00:26:27.079 --> 00:26:32.759 be Catholic because we actually care about these people. We're telling them so that 336 00:26:32.799 --> 00:26:37.400 they can know that Unfortunately we don't think they're in the Church of Christ. 337 00:26:37.960 --> 00:26:41.599 What the implications of that are in God's hands. But ultimately God established one 338 00:26:41.640 --> 00:26:47.160 true Church for our salvation, and we believe it's found within the One Holy 339 00:26:47.480 --> 00:26:51.960 Catholic and Apostolic Church, which is the Orthodox Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church. 340 00:26:52.440 --> 00:26:56.160 And it's a shame because in general, lots of Catholics are very charitable. 341 00:26:56.200 --> 00:27:00.519 People can talk to a Catholic and you know you'd get along fine. 342 00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:04.960 You find that they do lots of charity work. They do lots of good 343 00:27:04.960 --> 00:27:11.240 works. But um, you can say that about anyone. Really, you 344 00:27:11.240 --> 00:27:15.759 can say that about anyone. Mary, did your family come from a Catholic 345 00:27:15.799 --> 00:27:18.880 background? Originally not to put you on the spot or anything, but just 346 00:27:19.319 --> 00:27:25.480 yeah, my um, my mother did. She grew up down in Honduras, 347 00:27:25.640 --> 00:27:30.279 which is where um a lot of half like you know, influence was. 348 00:27:30.599 --> 00:27:37.519 But fortunately her, um, her cousin became an Orthodox priest and because 349 00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:44.279 I think he's like half Arabic and somehow Orthodoxy came down to their any and 350 00:27:44.359 --> 00:27:48.319 he has a Antiochian parish or something like that. I don't quite remember, 351 00:27:48.359 --> 00:27:52.799 but yeah, she said that from what I recalled, my mom has told 352 00:27:52.799 --> 00:27:57.559 me that, Yeah, like the Catholics were very generous, very sweet. 353 00:27:57.599 --> 00:28:03.200 She she had like a lot of the experiences, is like like very faithful 354 00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:07.400 people, you know, but it wasn't like to her, it wasn't complete. 355 00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:15.000 And when she joined the church she felt the wholeness there, you know, 356 00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:21.960 and it's great, like a big thanks to her her cousin, Padre 357 00:28:22.119 --> 00:28:27.799 Jorge forum bringing her into the church. Something I like to think of with 358 00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:33.000 the church, um that you're talking about, it's like there's only one church, 359 00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:37.839 right, And I think of it as like Christ has one bride, 360 00:28:37.200 --> 00:28:44.640 one one bride, the one church. It's silly to say that he would 361 00:28:44.680 --> 00:28:49.359 have multiple brides, you know, exactly one bride that he died for. 362 00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:55.480 Yeah, I would say that. Another way to understand this is that it's 363 00:28:55.480 --> 00:29:00.759 already been refuted this notion in the condemnations of Nestorianism, because Nestorianism doesn't just 364 00:29:00.799 --> 00:29:07.920 apply to the person of Christ himself. That's essentially what the dispute was about. 365 00:29:07.079 --> 00:29:12.839 Nestorius was proposing a dual subject Christology, namely that sometimes the Bible is 366 00:29:12.839 --> 00:29:18.240 telling us about the second person that God had, the Logos active in the 367 00:29:18.279 --> 00:29:21.359 life of Christ, and at other times the scriptures are telling us about this 368 00:29:21.440 --> 00:29:26.359 other separate human subject, Jesus of Nazareth, who exemplifies the human traits crying, 369 00:29:26.519 --> 00:29:30.799 walking, getting hungry, etc. So there's a dual subject Christology in 370 00:29:32.160 --> 00:29:37.640 Nestorius, and the condemnation is based on the hypostatic union of Saint Cyril Ephesus 371 00:29:37.720 --> 00:29:41.960 and in the Fifth and Six Councils, which effectively refute all ideas, all 372 00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:47.880 traces of Nestorianism. So you can't have a dual subject Christology, hypostatic union 373 00:29:47.880 --> 00:29:52.200 means that the two natures come together in the single divine person who has those 374 00:29:52.319 --> 00:29:55.839 natures because it's the second person of the God who becomes a carnate. Hence, 375 00:29:55.880 --> 00:29:59.759 the term the atokos is a refutation of any notion of a dual subject 376 00:30:00.039 --> 00:30:06.200 stology. So what this means then, is that the body of Christ, 377 00:30:06.319 --> 00:30:10.880 the physical body that he took on, which is Paul's consistent model for the 378 00:30:11.000 --> 00:30:15.559 church, is just as localized and just as visible as his body. You 379 00:30:15.640 --> 00:30:22.640 see, So Christ doesn't You can't not. You cannot divide his unique presence 380 00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:26.720 in his body from the incarnation. Thus, you cannot divide his unique presence 381 00:30:26.799 --> 00:30:32.880 in the Church from the single, true, one, Holy Catholic Apostle Orthodox 382 00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:38.319 Church. It's that simple. And so if you divide Christ ecclesiologically, that's 383 00:30:38.359 --> 00:30:44.400 an ecclesiological version of Nestorianism. Oh, Christ is in the Orthodox Church, 384 00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:47.759 but he's also in all these other churches and sects. French theory, it's 385 00:30:47.799 --> 00:30:52.440 branch theory. It's a very toxic branch theories. Like what he said, 386 00:30:52.680 --> 00:30:56.400 very similar to you know, teaching that. I don't know if it's a 387 00:30:56.400 --> 00:31:00.960 bit off a Caveat, it's not exactly the same bit teaches that church has 388 00:31:00.200 --> 00:31:03.519 part of the faith and then when you bring it all together, then you 389 00:31:03.519 --> 00:31:07.279 have the wholeness of the faith, which is just absurd because then that means 390 00:31:07.279 --> 00:31:11.559 that the early Christians didn't have the wholeness of the faith because they were one 391 00:31:11.839 --> 00:31:15.160 church at that time exactly. And it also arises out of Anglicanism, which 392 00:31:15.319 --> 00:31:21.839 was a novelty of Anglicans trying to figure out how they could be a new 393 00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:26.720 state run church as well as being and having some connection to the Church of 394 00:31:26.759 --> 00:31:30.519 the first thousand years. But nobody in the first thousand years proposed anything like 395 00:31:30.680 --> 00:31:34.039 the branch theory. They all teach the Orthodox conception of a single, visible 396 00:31:34.160 --> 00:31:45.240 true church. My question. My question being because I've heard Catholics say preach 397 00:31:45.359 --> 00:31:48.839 the idea of a that they are the one true church, there's no salvation 398 00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:52.839 outside of their church. And also like I guess to go on, like 399 00:31:53.319 --> 00:31:59.519 what are our what are our differences in salvation? Like what's the different ideas 400 00:31:59.559 --> 00:32:07.319 between us in the Catholic idea of salvation? Catholic system is a lot more 401 00:32:07.359 --> 00:32:12.119 precise in terms of these phases and stages and types of grace. There's you 402 00:32:12.160 --> 00:32:16.039 know, operative grace, cooperative grace, there's sanctifying grace. There's all these 403 00:32:16.039 --> 00:32:22.720 different terminology termological distinctions that they have. And in the Roman Catholic system, 404 00:32:22.720 --> 00:32:28.079 it's really kind of a mechanical structure of whether you've paid these debts or not. 405 00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:30.640 And that's why, you know, going back to the system of confession 406 00:32:30.640 --> 00:32:36.920 and whatnot, that's really the structure of how you're legally in good standing or 407 00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:39.759 you're in a debt standing. A lot of that has its origins in terms 408 00:32:39.799 --> 00:32:45.599 of where it departs from us in and some because an some proposes the debt 409 00:32:45.599 --> 00:32:52.359 payment model for redemption. So in his structure and Courtiers Homo, I think 410 00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:54.240 it's been many years since I've read it. I have read it, but 411 00:32:54.559 --> 00:33:00.519 he says, somebody the effect of the Father. You're if God is infinitely 412 00:33:00.559 --> 00:33:04.559 offended, the Father's infinitely offended by sin, which produces an infinite debt, 413 00:33:04.839 --> 00:33:08.279 then it needs to be paid by an infinite person, so the son pays 414 00:33:08.319 --> 00:33:14.720 off the father. That is anti trinitarian. You can't have any actions in 415 00:33:14.720 --> 00:33:17.079 the Godhead which are between two persons and not the third. But once again 416 00:33:17.119 --> 00:33:22.920 you begin to see because of philioque and absolutely simplicity the subordination of Holy Spirit 417 00:33:22.960 --> 00:33:27.119 in that payment method. There's actually a Byzantine Synod that dealt with us in 418 00:33:27.160 --> 00:33:30.720 the eleventh century, not directly because of Anselm, but because of a dispute 419 00:33:31.240 --> 00:33:36.920 within Byzantium where there was a priest who was as a priest are deacon, 420 00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:43.400 but he was basically positing this idea that the offering in the Eucharist is either 421 00:33:44.359 --> 00:33:49.039 from the son to the Father or it's the son offering his humanity to the 422 00:33:49.160 --> 00:33:53.000 entire triad. The Orthodox position was stated to be on the basis of the 423 00:33:53.039 --> 00:33:57.640 liturgy thine own of thine own we offering to thee that it's the second person 424 00:33:57.640 --> 00:34:00.640 that God had offering his humanity to the entire try it. So it is 425 00:34:00.680 --> 00:34:07.440 not the son offering only his humanity to the Father, and so that even 426 00:34:07.480 --> 00:34:12.519 though it's not directly about Augustine or about Reformed theology or classical Protestanism, it 427 00:34:12.639 --> 00:34:16.840 kind of automatically cuts off all of those options. So after Anselm, the 428 00:34:16.920 --> 00:34:23.639 Roman Calolic view develops into again this merit and payment model even further in terms 429 00:34:23.679 --> 00:34:30.039 of all these post Tridentine doctrines and statements in Denzinger. So after Council of 430 00:34:30.039 --> 00:34:35.599 Trent it really becomes codified that it's a matter of when you die, do 431 00:34:35.679 --> 00:34:40.719 you have the accident of supernatural created grace in your soul? And if you 432 00:34:40.840 --> 00:34:45.239 die in that state of grace, then you will go to purgatory pay off 433 00:34:45.239 --> 00:34:49.000 your temporal debts, and then you would go to the beatific vision, which 434 00:34:49.039 --> 00:34:52.880 is to see the essence of God with your intellect. So that's the Roman 435 00:34:52.920 --> 00:34:58.639 Caltholic view of salvation prior to the resurrection. The Orthodox view is different because 436 00:34:58.639 --> 00:35:04.000 we don't have an sell mean doctrine of one person paying off the infinite dad 437 00:35:04.079 --> 00:35:07.880 that you participate in gaining these merits from. We have the notion of participation 438 00:35:07.920 --> 00:35:14.199 in the uncreated energies of Christ. Through participating in his human nature that he 439 00:35:14.239 --> 00:35:17.639 assumed. The human nature that he assumed, he granted to it, he 440 00:35:17.800 --> 00:35:23.159 deified it with his immortal and uncreated deifying energies. John Damascus says, citing 441 00:35:23.280 --> 00:35:28.159 Saint Cyril, or by the way, says the exact same thing in the 442 00:35:28.239 --> 00:35:32.840 Letters Six Senses. Cyril says that the humanity that Christ assumed, he communicates 443 00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:39.800 to it and deifies it with his immortal, uncreated energy. When you partake 444 00:35:39.840 --> 00:35:44.480 of the Eucharist, you are partaking of that deified flesh, Cyril says. 445 00:35:44.920 --> 00:35:51.079 You see, So notice that Cyril does not disconnect the deifying grace that makes 446 00:35:51.199 --> 00:35:55.119 us, you know, one with Christ from the sacraments, meaning the sacraments 447 00:35:55.119 --> 00:35:59.960 of the Orthodox Church, not the sacraments of any church. The Orthodox Church, 448 00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:05.159 so they possess it alone, possesses the deifying, cleansing mysteries. So 449 00:36:05.239 --> 00:36:08.599 for us, that's how we participate into the uncreated life, uncreated glory of 450 00:36:08.719 --> 00:36:14.199 Christ. And that's the process of theosis. So there's a for us. 451 00:36:14.559 --> 00:36:20.199 There is that purification, illumination, and deification process that we all go through 452 00:36:21.239 --> 00:36:25.159 as we progress towards the escaton. So so it's a very different model in 453 00:36:25.199 --> 00:36:30.960 the Roman Catholic system. As I said, it's specifically stated in Aught and 454 00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:36.039 in the Trent that the grace that you get in justification and in baptism and 455 00:36:36.079 --> 00:36:40.079 the Roman Catholic Church and the sacraments is not the uncreated grace of God himself 456 00:36:40.559 --> 00:36:45.840 or the uncreated life of God himself. It is a quote supernatural creation, 457 00:36:45.400 --> 00:36:51.440 a supernatural accident in the soul. So very very different and this idea of 458 00:36:51.440 --> 00:36:53.159 created grace, which is dogmentizing in their system. No matter how many times 459 00:36:53.159 --> 00:36:55.840 they try to deny it, talk around it, it's there. It's dogma. 460 00:36:55.920 --> 00:37:00.440 It's in Denzinger, it's in Trent. No, that's very different, 461 00:37:00.440 --> 00:37:04.320 and we don't believe in the Beati vision because of that. For us, 462 00:37:04.360 --> 00:37:07.599 the resurrection is the final salvation that we're all destined for, and so we 463 00:37:07.719 --> 00:37:13.519 seek a good resurrection based on whether we lived according to the virtues in this 464 00:37:13.679 --> 00:37:17.320 life and loved God and participated in the sacraments, versus this idea of an 465 00:37:17.360 --> 00:37:22.519 intellectual vision of the divine essence. We don't. Creatures do not see the 466 00:37:22.519 --> 00:37:29.119 divine essence. The Orthodox hurt essences. That's an important topic. Also, 467 00:37:29.119 --> 00:37:34.800 I follow off about going more into essence. Like with God's essence, it 468 00:37:34.960 --> 00:37:39.840 refers to God's innermost nature that makes God who is. So it presents like 469 00:37:39.960 --> 00:37:51.280 the unknowable and other aspects of God being beyond our human comprehension. Thank you 470 00:37:51.000 --> 00:38:01.280 ran right. So we believe in Orthodoxy the God essence it's not comprehensible and 471 00:38:01.360 --> 00:38:07.239 cannot be directly experienced by human beings. Right, Hence the Beatific vision isn't 472 00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:13.079 really possible. For the Orthodox what is possible is the direct perception of the 473 00:38:13.079 --> 00:38:16.480 divine energies. And so Maximus says that citing the Cappadocians, that in the 474 00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:21.960 escoton we will have a direct vision of God, but it's the personal energies 475 00:38:21.960 --> 00:38:25.000 that we see and perceive of the logos, the logi, etc. It 476 00:38:25.119 --> 00:38:30.400 is not the inner, unknowable essence of God. So the Ennery distinction is 477 00:38:30.519 --> 00:38:36.639 very fundamental to Orthodoxy, and I argue that is pretty clear that the Roman 478 00:38:36.679 --> 00:38:39.840 Catholic Church dogmatically does not accept the essenceynergy distinction. And you can see this 479 00:38:39.880 --> 00:38:45.639 from many points. The Fourth Laddering Council affirms, for example, the strict 480 00:38:45.719 --> 00:38:51.079 divine simplicity doctrine of Peter Lombard, known as identity thesis. So if we 481 00:38:51.119 --> 00:38:57.519 accept Lombard's identity thesis, and if Trent and other condemned propositions make the point 482 00:38:57.599 --> 00:39:01.039 that in the Roman Catholic system you'd do not participate in uncreated grace, and 483 00:39:01.079 --> 00:39:06.360 if they always stress that the light of table is a created light, we 484 00:39:06.360 --> 00:39:09.639 pretty clearly know their position on this right. It is dogmatic that the grace 485 00:39:10.079 --> 00:39:15.760 Trent says that the grace of justification is not the righteousness by which God himself 486 00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:22.519 is righteousness right, so that it is therefore, as uh as odd says, 487 00:39:22.840 --> 00:39:28.559 a supernatural created substance, I mean accent and soul. So uh, 488 00:39:29.559 --> 00:39:36.079 again, very very different theologies because of again different triads. So I was 489 00:39:36.159 --> 00:39:40.199 I was going to say regarding like energies, wasn't that one of the biggest 490 00:39:40.599 --> 00:39:45.000 I think it was energies and essences? Wasn't that one of the biggest? 491 00:39:45.440 --> 00:39:51.000 Yeah, energy sence distinction. And also how like the I think it's the 492 00:39:51.079 --> 00:39:57.760 Catholics believe you can know God, um use him in on that page. 493 00:39:58.960 --> 00:40:02.639 There we go, so you can see hopefully that I'm holding up the right 494 00:40:02.639 --> 00:40:09.159 one. But that's a little we got fundamentals of Catholic dogma noting that supernatural 495 00:40:09.880 --> 00:40:14.599 grace is a created accident and the soul is that what it says, Yes, 496 00:40:15.039 --> 00:40:20.199 it says, uh yeah, well says sanctifying grace is a created, 497 00:40:20.239 --> 00:40:23.199 supernatural gift really distinct from God. So it's a creature. It is not 498 00:40:23.239 --> 00:40:32.639 gone. Well, uh it was. It was Saint Gregory Palamas when he 499 00:40:32.679 --> 00:40:40.159 had the massive debate between him and wasn't on right synergies. Yes, there 500 00:40:40.159 --> 00:40:45.159 we go also important for the essence ynergy. I mean that book really just 501 00:40:45.639 --> 00:40:49.559 nails it in a hundred pages. But the Tryads is also important too, 502 00:40:49.599 --> 00:40:52.079 if you want to get the Tryads too, because he goes really deep into 503 00:40:52.119 --> 00:40:57.840 the whole, the totality of the Energy's doctrine and the Tryads. And also 504 00:40:57.880 --> 00:41:02.360 to make it clear too that this is not some some fringe doctrine that's over 505 00:41:02.440 --> 00:41:07.880 here in the peripheral thing. It's fundamental, because if you read the appidicted 506 00:41:07.960 --> 00:41:13.039 Treatise on the Procession of the Holy Spirit by Saint Gray Palamus, you'll notice 507 00:41:13.079 --> 00:41:17.159 that the doctrine of the monarchia of the Father and the reason we don't accept 508 00:41:17.199 --> 00:41:22.559 the philioque is the exact same reason that we don't believe in absolute divine simplicity. 509 00:41:22.559 --> 00:41:24.679 And when we have the energies doctrine. In other words, these doctrines 510 00:41:24.760 --> 00:41:30.119 go together, you see. So you can't separate the monarchia of the Father 511 00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:35.920 from the uncreated energies. They go together. It's the point. And I 512 00:41:35.920 --> 00:41:39.079 think when people see that, and not just that in terms of the triad, 513 00:41:39.159 --> 00:41:45.000 but if you notice when you read John Damascus and Saint Maximus and John 514 00:41:45.079 --> 00:41:49.480 Damascus is on the Orthodox Faith. He talks about the energies in book one 515 00:41:50.440 --> 00:41:52.800 in terms of God's relationship to the world and the triad. But in Book 516 00:41:52.800 --> 00:41:57.440 three is where it gets really clear because he applies the two Wills and the 517 00:41:57.440 --> 00:42:00.960 two energies doctrine to Christology, you see. And that's why it's so fundamental 518 00:42:01.000 --> 00:42:07.679 to the Six Council's doctrine affirming Saint Maximus against them Inophysites that two Wills and 519 00:42:07.760 --> 00:42:13.920 two energies the energy's doctrine is principally seen in the incarnation. I mean, 520 00:42:13.960 --> 00:42:16.119 we can talk about in terms of triad, but where the rubber hits the 521 00:42:16.199 --> 00:42:21.239 road is really in Christology, and that's where we really have to see o 522 00:42:21.360 --> 00:42:24.519 way. Actually, like Saint Cyril said in the Two Letters to sixth Census, 523 00:42:25.440 --> 00:42:30.559 it is not the divine essence that is communicated to the human nature of 524 00:42:30.639 --> 00:42:37.599 Christ to deify it. It is the uncreated energy that's transferred and communicated to 525 00:42:37.639 --> 00:42:40.880 the human nature of Christ. Thus, in the Eucharist, it is the 526 00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:45.679 uncreated energy that you're participating in in that deified flesh, you see. So 527 00:42:46.079 --> 00:42:51.159 the easiest way to really nail down the distinction here is again to go from 528 00:42:51.679 --> 00:42:57.719 Christology to sacramentology, and to point out to Roman Catholic you're not eating the 529 00:42:57.800 --> 00:43:00.199 essence of God in the Eucharist, right because they believe the Uchas's body, 530 00:43:00.239 --> 00:43:04.960 blood, soul, and divinity. Because what's the divinity there? Is it 531 00:43:04.960 --> 00:43:10.280 another created grace. Jesus said that we would participate an uncreated life, immortal 532 00:43:10.360 --> 00:43:14.239 life, glory, the same glory that you have with the Father before the 533 00:43:14.280 --> 00:43:19.880 foundation of the world John seventeen. Because it's not a creature. As Palamas 534 00:43:19.960 --> 00:43:23.519 says to Barlean, if all we needed was another creature to be saved, 535 00:43:23.559 --> 00:43:30.039 then the Arians are right, because the Arians said salvation is just another another 536 00:43:30.039 --> 00:43:37.000 created state. The logos who's your moral example is just a creature. Jesus 537 00:43:37.119 --> 00:43:40.800 is a creature. So Arianism is you can be saved by a truly created 538 00:43:40.880 --> 00:43:45.719 thing. No, the teaching of Ephesus, the teaching of our sacramentology, 539 00:43:45.880 --> 00:43:52.679 is that we need God to save us through uncreated life, not another creature, 540 00:43:52.159 --> 00:43:58.159 uncreated immortal life and glory. Dude, why can't I just be a 541 00:43:58.239 --> 00:44:04.000 Scottist. Why can't just Scotus and say I do believe in This is a 542 00:44:04.039 --> 00:44:12.719 great question. Um. So a lot of Uniates will have this out, 543 00:44:13.039 --> 00:44:15.400 and they said, well, I don't really care about all this Palamas stuff, 544 00:44:15.519 --> 00:44:21.159 because I can just choose not to be Atomist, and I can choose 545 00:44:21.199 --> 00:44:27.519 Scotism. And Scotism posits what they call a formal distinction between the divine attributes, 546 00:44:27.880 --> 00:44:32.519 and isn't that close enough to Palamas. The first thing I would say 547 00:44:32.559 --> 00:44:39.920 is that it is true that Scotus is closer to Palamoss just on the notion 548 00:44:40.119 --> 00:44:46.360 of the distinction between the attributes and the essence. But it's not a question 549 00:44:46.400 --> 00:44:51.480 of is that good enough. That's not what orthodox is. You see, 550 00:44:51.599 --> 00:44:58.280 Orthodox is much more than just admitting a formal or quasi real distinction between divine 551 00:44:58.320 --> 00:45:02.199 attributes and divine essence. In other words, the Scotus system still operates within 552 00:45:02.440 --> 00:45:07.000 all of the other parameters of Roman Catholic theology. For example, if you 553 00:45:07.079 --> 00:45:14.400 get a basic text like done Scotus's philosophical writings, you will notice that he 554 00:45:14.440 --> 00:45:20.599 teaches a lot of the same principles that we would reject, like the filioque 555 00:45:22.599 --> 00:45:29.400 created grace, like all of the things that we criticize in the Augustinian system. 556 00:45:29.679 --> 00:45:32.400 So, in other words, just finding one area that is similar to 557 00:45:32.440 --> 00:45:37.039 Palamas It would be like of a Protestant said, hey, and I've met 558 00:45:37.039 --> 00:45:39.679 Protestants like this, Hey, what if I believe in the uncreated energies, 559 00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:45.119 We're on the same page. The uncreated energies don't exist in a vacuum, 560 00:45:45.519 --> 00:45:50.159 you see. They're part of the rest of the Orthodox triadological conception. You 561 00:45:50.280 --> 00:45:54.079 see. The other thing I would say is that it really doesn't matter that 562 00:45:54.119 --> 00:45:59.000 there's people within different schools in the Roman Calolic system, because the Roman Catholic 563 00:45:59.079 --> 00:46:04.039 system is actually aramatized a very strict doctrine of divine simplicity that we could never 564 00:46:04.079 --> 00:46:07.880 accept. So while it might be true that certain people, for example, 565 00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:12.400 Bonaventure, if I recall, I think Bonaventure says in his day he thought 566 00:46:12.400 --> 00:46:16.800 that grace was uncreated. So if that's the case, could we just say 567 00:46:16.880 --> 00:46:21.639 Bonaventure is an Orthodox saint, then we agree with Bonaventure and the Franciscans. 568 00:46:22.239 --> 00:46:24.719 Well, it doesn't work like that because it's not a piecemeal thing. Orthodoxy 569 00:46:24.800 --> 00:46:28.920 is a holistic thing. So you've got to have the uncreated grace in the 570 00:46:29.000 --> 00:46:32.239 sacraments, you gotta have Orthodox ecclesiology, you've got to be in communie with 571 00:46:32.320 --> 00:46:37.960 Orthodox people, it's not good enough just to have a single doctrine, a 572 00:46:37.960 --> 00:46:42.920 single theological point in agreement with us, because conceivably a Protestant could say, 573 00:46:43.239 --> 00:46:45.440 hey, I agree with you guys, I believe in the essence energy sinction. 574 00:46:46.039 --> 00:46:49.920 And some of them will say this, But does that make them orthodox? 575 00:46:50.039 --> 00:46:52.480 No, So it's much more than just that. And again, I 576 00:46:52.559 --> 00:46:59.719 really just don't buy that the Roman Catholic system. Actually, it's like Hadi 577 00:46:59.800 --> 00:47:04.000 said, it seems to be a lot of different types of Roman Catholicism. 578 00:47:04.039 --> 00:47:07.559 So it's like some of the Thomas traads, I mean, in their conception 579 00:47:07.039 --> 00:47:14.880 when Pope Leo made thomasm the official philosophy of the church. You it doesn't 580 00:47:14.920 --> 00:47:20.920 make sense to have these Scotish positions. And again that the fourth ladder in 581 00:47:21.000 --> 00:47:27.599 Council identifies through identity thesis the Peter Lombard doctrine of the attributes being all the 582 00:47:27.639 --> 00:47:31.920 same with one another and with the essence. Then shouldn't Scotus be wrong for 583 00:47:32.159 --> 00:47:37.840 positing a formal distinction because it was already defined that there's not a real distinction. 584 00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:42.159 So I just see this as kind of a clever I mean, I'm 585 00:47:42.159 --> 00:47:45.519 not saying Scotis was trying to destroy I just I think he was working with 586 00:47:45.559 --> 00:47:50.880 probably what he knew, and he probably saw some of the problems in Thomas 587 00:47:50.960 --> 00:47:55.800 m. But that's not enough to be Orthodox. You can hold orthodox theology 588 00:47:55.840 --> 00:48:00.360 and still not be orthox like you could hold one hundred percent will thus not 589 00:48:00.400 --> 00:48:02.840 be part of the canonical body of the Orthodox Church. Great point, great 590 00:48:02.840 --> 00:48:07.840 point, how it is. But what I would really like, honestly, 591 00:48:07.960 --> 00:48:13.199 and this is not taking a job, I'd like a proper definition of what 592 00:48:13.559 --> 00:48:19.480 makes something the pope says infallible because like if they say, you know, 593 00:48:19.719 --> 00:48:22.719 he ratifies a document, whatever it is he speaking, so infallibility is the 594 00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:27.320 fine is when he's speaking in his authority, official capacity in the sea of 595 00:48:27.320 --> 00:48:30.280 Peter. But there's a million ways I can interpret that on faith and morals. 596 00:48:30.280 --> 00:48:35.079 There's the other quale on faith and morals, thank you, But he's 597 00:48:35.119 --> 00:48:37.920 done that before, like dumb diverse as is a people will if a people 598 00:48:38.000 --> 00:48:43.159 will ratified by multiple popes, because they'll say it's not infallible. Now, 599 00:48:43.360 --> 00:48:47.679 if that's not infallible, then what exactly is how does the pope speak infallible 600 00:48:47.760 --> 00:48:54.159 if his own like a document that he's written signed propagated and got multiple popes 601 00:48:54.280 --> 00:48:59.719 after him to sign and propagate as something that's blinding to the church relating to 602 00:48:59.760 --> 00:49:04.920 faith and morals. It's not infallible, and that definition is ultimately bumped absolutely, 603 00:49:04.960 --> 00:49:09.119 and well, I just I just want a proper definition, really, 604 00:49:09.159 --> 00:49:14.960 because oftentimes I'm just talking with a Catholic or they might be a friend or 605 00:49:15.199 --> 00:49:17.719 someone that I know, and I'm you know, bouncing ideas back and forth 606 00:49:17.760 --> 00:49:22.360 and I can't really get any a leewave because I'm like, Okay, do 607 00:49:22.440 --> 00:49:25.920 you believe this, And they're like, oh, that's not infallible. Another 608 00:49:25.960 --> 00:49:31.400 documentar that one. It's not really like some of it's infallible. So if 609 00:49:31.400 --> 00:49:36.360 it's not, or if you have an actual pope that is condemned by a 610 00:49:36.440 --> 00:49:40.199 council, or he wasn't actually condemned even though it's in the acts of the 611 00:49:40.280 --> 00:49:45.800 Council. Yeah, it's also in the next two councils. They also restate 612 00:49:45.840 --> 00:49:49.480 the condemnation of Honorius. To make it very clear, I have yet to 613 00:49:49.599 --> 00:49:52.920 meet Catholic who genuinely believes in people infallibility. And I live in the West 614 00:49:52.960 --> 00:49:58.159 and have lived here for a while already, so a lot of their theology 615 00:49:58.239 --> 00:50:04.239 seems to be like just like a placeholder for like tradition and traditional values, 616 00:50:04.400 --> 00:50:07.559 is usually saying on the podcast. Really, so I mean, I don't 617 00:50:07.599 --> 00:50:12.360 know, I feel like this is maybe like a segue into a different topic. 618 00:50:12.400 --> 00:50:15.519 But right now, most of the people in the Catholic Church that I 619 00:50:15.559 --> 00:50:17.400 can you know, meet and see in the parish that's in the town I 620 00:50:17.440 --> 00:50:22.440 live, they're more focused on being like, you know, progressive and liberal 621 00:50:22.440 --> 00:50:24.840 than anything else. And so that all of these medieval tens and that medieval 622 00:50:24.880 --> 00:50:30.320 theology, which points to a more structured church, is kind of getting worse 623 00:50:30.440 --> 00:50:34.920 down now for you know, a new kind of conception of the church. 624 00:50:34.760 --> 00:50:37.360 It will be more liberal and more lenient now with Pattick and too especially, 625 00:50:37.400 --> 00:50:43.039 so then theology is getting adjusted and the debating style is getting adjusted. So 626 00:50:43.159 --> 00:50:45.920 like they flee from this series of like pipal infallibility or something that's going to 627 00:50:45.960 --> 00:50:50.599 you know, point for a medieval time or a medieval church that was really 628 00:50:50.639 --> 00:50:52.599 rigid and strong. And so now that the church is weak, their theology 629 00:50:52.639 --> 00:50:58.199 is kind of fading and starting to be this kind of Protestant influenced hippie thing 630 00:50:58.360 --> 00:51:04.039 that you know, absolutely, I mean that's that's a great uh summation of 631 00:51:04.119 --> 00:51:07.639 what the practical effects post Vatican Too were and the result of that, I 632 00:51:07.639 --> 00:51:15.119 mean that results from tying the church to geopolitics a thousand years ago. Right, 633 00:51:15.119 --> 00:51:16.400 I mean this is really just the end result, because if the if 634 00:51:16.400 --> 00:51:21.760 the papacy can innovate and you can have revolutions, then it can innovate and 635 00:51:21.800 --> 00:51:27.519 revolve, evolve into the liberal way exactly. I think Justin Popov said this, 636 00:51:27.599 --> 00:51:30.920 right, I mean the papacy, he said, is just European humanism, 637 00:51:31.920 --> 00:51:35.920 which is what you find if you read Vatican Too. It's already kind 638 00:51:35.920 --> 00:51:38.920 of revied in that liberal direction. Like he says Muslims worship the same God, 639 00:51:39.239 --> 00:51:45.480 the Jews worship the same God. Sure this is a hindus um, 640 00:51:45.679 --> 00:51:49.719 but it says, by the way that we have valid sacraments and orders, 641 00:51:49.719 --> 00:51:52.760 which I don't understand because if you go back to I don't know if Florence, 642 00:51:53.320 --> 00:51:57.280 Um, you read what the pope says. It is the schismatic, 643 00:51:57.320 --> 00:52:00.719 the Jew, the heretic cannot be saved and it's in this life he joins 644 00:52:00.760 --> 00:52:04.119 himself to the body of the Catholic Church. Right, these are both communical 645 00:52:04.199 --> 00:52:06.960 councils, and these are both like one of them, he said, directly 646 00:52:07.000 --> 00:52:10.159 from the wood mouth of a pope. So how can they be in contradiction 647 00:52:10.400 --> 00:52:16.280 if they're mutually exclusive statements. They will say that, um, the conception 648 00:52:16.320 --> 00:52:22.599 of the church is not limited to the visible structure of Rome. So this 649 00:52:22.639 --> 00:52:25.599 is why Vatican. Yeah, this is why Vatican too. And now you 650 00:52:25.719 --> 00:52:30.719 notice and m signed them and a contadi domino that you're siting there. It 651 00:52:30.840 --> 00:52:35.480 is limited to the to the visible structure of Rome. So they'll say, 652 00:52:35.480 --> 00:52:40.079 we look, Vatican two says the church subsists in the Roman Catholic Church, 653 00:52:40.239 --> 00:52:45.280 meaning that it also is outside the visible balance the Roman Callic Church, and 654 00:52:45.400 --> 00:52:46.960 a lot of the trag cats, you know, have a big problem with 655 00:52:47.000 --> 00:52:52.320 that phrase in Vatican two subsists in the Roman Callic Church, because it's obviously 656 00:52:52.400 --> 00:52:58.119 contradicted. Well, here's their here's their ex coping for that. The cope 657 00:52:58.280 --> 00:53:02.960 is well, um, because we believe in valid sacraments outside the visible structure 658 00:53:02.960 --> 00:53:07.039 of the Roman Catholic Church. This then allows and opens the door for, 659 00:53:07.480 --> 00:53:13.559 via the Augustinian notion of x Opera apperato, the possibility of people being united 660 00:53:13.599 --> 00:53:17.199 to the Church in heterodox communions. And so what they've done at that point 661 00:53:17.280 --> 00:53:22.199 to depart from the Orthodox conception of the sacraments is that they've separated the faith 662 00:53:23.000 --> 00:53:27.199 from the celebration of the sacrament. Right, So, in other words, 663 00:53:27.239 --> 00:53:30.480 you can have the sacraments now even without the faith. And that's why the 664 00:53:30.559 --> 00:53:36.079 Roman Catholic Church dogmatized that an atheist or a Muslim can baptize, right. 665 00:53:36.320 --> 00:53:42.679 That's foreign to the Orthodox Church because of the difference, a different sacramentology that 666 00:53:42.840 --> 00:53:45.480 didn't go the full route of Augustinianism. So this gets really precise and really 667 00:53:45.599 --> 00:53:50.679 nuanced, and people get really confused over this. But the doctrine of x 668 00:53:50.719 --> 00:53:54.000 opera apperato was Augustine's attempt to answer the Donatis, and a lot of what 669 00:53:54.039 --> 00:53:59.840 he said was good and was a correct answer to the absurd rigorism of the 670 00:54:00.000 --> 00:54:04.559 Donatists. They were kind of crazy. But not everything that Augustine argued and 671 00:54:04.679 --> 00:54:09.000 said is what the Orthodox Church accepted. Because again it's from Augustine's doctrine of 672 00:54:09.079 --> 00:54:14.360 ex opera alvarado that we get the idea that you can have atheists and Muslims 673 00:54:14.360 --> 00:54:19.400 baptizing people. And why do they think that, Well, so they come 674 00:54:19.480 --> 00:54:23.960 up with the definition in the Roman Caloic Church that a sacrament is matter form 675 00:54:23.960 --> 00:54:29.000 and intention. So as long as the atheist has the intention to do what 676 00:54:29.039 --> 00:54:32.519 the Roman Caloic Church does, he can baptize is absurd. I don't know 677 00:54:32.559 --> 00:54:37.360 how how does an atheist have the intention to do a thing that he doesn't 678 00:54:37.360 --> 00:54:38.960 believe in. I mean, it's just absurd. But this is the Scholastic 679 00:54:39.760 --> 00:54:45.599 just absurdity that their sacramentology involved into. And the reason that's relevant to Vatican 680 00:54:45.679 --> 00:54:50.639 too, and salvation outside the church is that it's that notion of the possibility 681 00:54:50.760 --> 00:54:54.320 of the severance of the ritual from the doctrines and from the faith. Right 682 00:54:54.800 --> 00:55:01.280 because the Orthodox view my understanding, you can't have great scious sacraments apart from 683 00:55:01.360 --> 00:55:07.280 the faith. But that's precisely what this system does, is it severs those 684 00:55:07.320 --> 00:55:12.639 two things so that you can now have the gracious celebration of the sacrament outside 685 00:55:12.639 --> 00:55:15.880 the church. Now, the irony is that Augustine himself, even though he 686 00:55:15.880 --> 00:55:20.719 admits that it might be a gracious celebration of the sacrament outside the church, 687 00:55:21.519 --> 00:55:25.840 the fact that your inheresy is a preventative, it's a block to the grace. 688 00:55:27.519 --> 00:55:30.320 So the grace is president, it's there when you're baptized in the Protestant 689 00:55:30.360 --> 00:55:34.360 Church in the Augustinian view, as long as it's in the name of the 690 00:55:34.360 --> 00:55:38.119 Trinity. But because you're in a Protestant heterodox confession, that grace which has 691 00:55:38.119 --> 00:55:43.840 been applied to you is you're prevented from benefiting from it, so you're still 692 00:55:43.960 --> 00:55:47.599 you're still heterodox. And that's why Augustine can have that position and still strongly 693 00:55:47.639 --> 00:55:54.480 believe in extra ecclasion cellos. So that develops though over time because the Roman 694 00:55:54.480 --> 00:56:00.119 Calolic Church, through various disputes and papal pronouncements, says well, look, 695 00:56:00.440 --> 00:56:06.760 there's also baptism of desire, baptism of blood, baptism of fire right that 696 00:56:06.840 --> 00:56:09.880 we experience, and so there's there's eventually there's statements that will could a person 697 00:56:09.920 --> 00:56:15.119 in another religion or in another country have the desire for what they know to 698 00:56:15.239 --> 00:56:21.039 be the truth and therefore that count as God sending them the grace of the 699 00:56:21.119 --> 00:56:23.719 church. So this is where they start going into that direction, and then 700 00:56:23.760 --> 00:56:28.079 they come to the idea basically if you was it for Telly Tuti, the 701 00:56:28.159 --> 00:56:35.920 recent encyclical of Francis it basically places the Roman Catholic Church as the center of 702 00:56:35.920 --> 00:56:42.760 a concentric rings of world religions that are all in varying degrees in communion with 703 00:56:42.880 --> 00:56:45.400 Rome. So basically Romans in the mental in the middle. And so now 704 00:56:45.440 --> 00:56:50.000 the Pope isn't just the head of the Christian world, he's actually kind of 705 00:56:50.039 --> 00:56:53.079 the head of all of the world religions secretly, you see. So outside 706 00:56:53.079 --> 00:56:58.199 of the Roman Catholic circle, you have the Orthodox circle because they're closest to 707 00:56:58.320 --> 00:57:01.800 Rome, but they're not fully with Rome, but they have seventy of Rome. 708 00:57:02.119 --> 00:57:07.480 Then we have Anglicans and Protestants, right, they're the next circle out. 709 00:57:07.519 --> 00:57:10.199 They have maybe sixty fifty percent of Rome. Then we get the Muslims. 710 00:57:10.719 --> 00:57:17.639 And that's why for Telly Tuti included prayers that Unitarians could pray unbelievable. 711 00:57:19.360 --> 00:57:23.119 That's why the Roman Collity Church has created the Abu Dhabi Multi Faith Center with 712 00:57:23.199 --> 00:57:28.719 Jews, Muslims, and Christians together worshiping the one True Monotheist, a God 713 00:57:28.960 --> 00:57:31.159 that's not the one true Monotheist of God. The one true Monotheist of God 714 00:57:31.320 --> 00:57:36.360 is the Father that the Lord Jesus called upon, that you only access through 715 00:57:36.679 --> 00:57:40.119 Jesus in the spirit. It's the triad that there is no one true, 716 00:57:40.199 --> 00:57:47.039 monotheistic, generic God. Another thing is people think that for some reason we 717 00:57:47.079 --> 00:57:52.440 hate Augustine. We don't hate Augustine, just isn't in Foy. He's one 718 00:57:52.440 --> 00:57:55.559 of five greatest Saints. We don't reject all of his theology either, we 719 00:57:55.679 --> 00:58:00.159 accept the post majority of it. And it would that it gets thrown awn. 720 00:58:00.320 --> 00:58:04.119 This kind of debate a lot, which in essence you should do it. 721 00:58:04.119 --> 00:58:08.239 It's be charitable, but be charitable and nowadays are synonymous that just stop 722 00:58:08.280 --> 00:58:10.880 talking. I don't like it. I don't you what you have to say. 723 00:58:14.599 --> 00:58:16.480 What's the last thing I was going to go to is? I find 724 00:58:16.519 --> 00:58:21.039 that there's the last topic before we just have some short questions that we about 725 00:58:21.159 --> 00:58:28.199 up is so questions that audience members asked just go through the real quick. 726 00:58:28.280 --> 00:58:32.760 But before that I find they have a very scholastic approach to everything. That's 727 00:58:32.760 --> 00:58:37.440 the last distinction I want to make. Everything is kind of a legal system, 728 00:58:37.559 --> 00:58:40.760 which you don't find with orthodoxy in the same way. We don't reject 729 00:58:40.800 --> 00:58:45.800 reason, of course not, but we don't have to break everything down into 730 00:58:45.920 --> 00:58:50.679 meaningless logic. Because there is an aspect of God that's not it's beyond our 731 00:58:50.719 --> 00:58:53.519 comprehension, is beyond logic. Could you elaborate on that bit for us? 732 00:58:53.599 --> 00:58:58.320 Another good example of this is the sacraments as the mysteries. Right, So 733 00:58:58.719 --> 00:59:04.679 certainly we can talk about boundaries for the sacraments, but there's no Orthodox notion 734 00:59:04.920 --> 00:59:09.199 of the definite. The scientific definition of a sacrament matter form and intention. 735 00:59:09.280 --> 00:59:14.280 That's the Roman Catholic scientific definition that comes out of the Scholastic period, like 736 00:59:14.280 --> 00:59:17.559 you're saying. And for the Orthodox view, it's not that we can't talk 737 00:59:17.599 --> 00:59:22.719 about these things, but think about the way the Roman Catholics view the euchris. 738 00:59:22.800 --> 00:59:24.639 For them, the us the matter, form and attention of the euchris 739 00:59:24.800 --> 00:59:29.239 is the words of consecration of the priests. So they leave out the epiclesis 740 00:59:29.320 --> 00:59:34.039 they don't think the applicasis has anything to do with the validity and the graciousness 741 00:59:34.079 --> 00:59:37.559 of the euchris. Again, which is again kind of stilly. How could 742 00:59:37.559 --> 00:59:44.079 the calling down the Holy Spirit not be essential to the sacraments and their grace? 743 00:59:44.119 --> 00:59:47.280 It's silly, But they were searching for a scientific definition to make it 744 00:59:47.400 --> 00:59:54.320 clear when and where there is a actual sacrament being performed, including by atheists, 745 00:59:54.320 --> 00:59:59.159 and Muslims. And this is where we get into the absurdities, which 746 00:59:59.199 --> 01:00:02.880 again this is this is their view. I'm not being I'm telling you faithfully 747 01:00:02.880 --> 01:00:07.159 what the Roman Catholic position is. If you were a Roman Catholic priest and 748 01:00:07.360 --> 01:00:13.039 the day that you were ordained you became a Satanist, Let's say you apostatize 749 01:00:13.039 --> 01:00:15.199 the day you were ordained as Roman Callic priest, they believe that you can 750 01:00:15.280 --> 01:00:21.360 forever confect actually and really and truly the Euchrist. You could sit there all 751 01:00:21.440 --> 01:00:23.599 day long confecting the Euchrist. It is really the body, blood, and 752 01:00:23.599 --> 01:00:29.000 soul, divinity of Christ. To defame it, to blasphemy, that's absurd. 753 01:00:29.840 --> 01:00:35.719 Again, there's no celebration of the sacrament outside of the faith, you 754 01:00:35.800 --> 01:00:39.360 see, and the Roman Catholic system is premised on that, and that is 755 01:00:39.400 --> 01:00:45.840 what leads to that's the priest subposition behind a lot of the Vatican Two notions 756 01:00:45.880 --> 01:00:50.679 about you know, these other religions having salvific graces and whatnot. Anyway, 757 01:00:51.599 --> 01:00:52.559 that was way i'll topic. I'm sorry I got back into that, but 758 01:00:52.599 --> 01:00:55.960 I did want to make that point about you know, the confecting the Eucharist, 759 01:00:57.000 --> 01:00:59.639 because it's another way to illustrate the difference between our view and there being 760 01:00:59.639 --> 01:01:04.719 the sack Um, what was the question I got lost august oh Augustine, 761 01:01:04.760 --> 01:01:07.239 Yeah, so yeah, I think I mean Augustine has stated to be a 762 01:01:07.320 --> 01:01:10.440 father in the Fifth Council. Um, and then they don't list all of 763 01:01:10.440 --> 01:01:15.239 his works. I think they list the anti Manichean works as exemplary Orthodox works. 764 01:01:15.559 --> 01:01:20.199 You notice they don't mention all of his works. Right, um, 765 01:01:20.400 --> 01:01:22.960 Donatism is condemned. I think that. I think Donatis has mentioned specifically as 766 01:01:22.960 --> 01:01:25.559 a heretic of the Fifth Council as well, But that doesn't mean that everything 767 01:01:25.639 --> 01:01:30.800 Augustine taught about the sacraments is there for Orthodox dogmatics. So you know, 768 01:01:30.880 --> 01:01:35.719 it's just like you said. If anything, I think, go ahead the 769 01:01:35.760 --> 01:01:38.840 same with anyone in Saint. We don't absolutely Saint to be infallible. It's 770 01:01:38.840 --> 01:01:44.400 census, patron, the good census of the fathers. Absolutely invisals can be 771 01:01:44.440 --> 01:01:46.760 wrong, correct. Budias says, uh, you know, if you read 772 01:01:46.800 --> 01:01:52.679 the mystagogy, he doesn't say that the Saint, the Church fathers, and 773 01:01:52.719 --> 01:01:57.079 the saints never made errors. He says that we should overlooked the errors and 774 01:01:57.159 --> 01:02:01.400 be charitable. But overlook kingdom doesn't mean we don't we lie about it and 775 01:02:01.440 --> 01:02:05.360 we don't admit that they made mistakes. Right. For example, in the 776 01:02:05.400 --> 01:02:13.360 Ambigua, Saint Maximus is correcting certain opinions that Originism had seeped into the church 777 01:02:13.519 --> 01:02:16.599 to create right, so originism, I'm not saying that all the church fathers 778 01:02:16.599 --> 01:02:20.760 the cabinations were Originists, but they were influenced by origin and so some of 779 01:02:20.760 --> 01:02:24.719 the conclusions, for example, Saint Gregornis's statements about a puckettstasis could be read 780 01:02:24.760 --> 01:02:30.760 in a heterodox way. And so Sat Maximus writes the Ambigua and he says, 781 01:02:30.840 --> 01:02:36.000 look, here are ways to clear up these ambiguities and even at times 782 01:02:36.039 --> 01:02:38.920 mistakes and the church fathers. So there's nothing wrong with or it's it's not 783 01:02:39.079 --> 01:02:45.639 impious to be honest about admitting that certain church fathers made mistakes. And like 784 01:02:45.760 --> 01:02:49.760 hat he said, it's about the consensus of the fathers, not the Roman 785 01:02:49.800 --> 01:02:52.920 Catholic or Protestant model of picking one guy. You'll notice the tendency of the 786 01:02:53.000 --> 01:02:58.639 Roman Catholic model is let's pick Augustine in all of our theology builds on him. 787 01:02:58.760 --> 01:03:00.960 Let's pick a quintas all of our theology then builds on him, and 788 01:03:01.000 --> 01:03:04.440 then also by the way, the pope. You see, so it's always 789 01:03:04.519 --> 01:03:07.840 kind of picking this guy. That's the guy right there. Right. That's 790 01:03:07.880 --> 01:03:13.440 the opposite of the sonodal ecumenical council model, where if you go to say 791 01:03:13.519 --> 01:03:19.000 Constantinople one, yes it's sonodal, and yes there are figures that stand out 792 01:03:19.039 --> 01:03:23.920 as important theologians like the Cappadocians, but it's still sonodal. And Augustine said, 793 01:03:24.280 --> 01:03:28.800 I submit my book on the Trinity to the Church to decide. By 794 01:03:28.840 --> 01:03:30.639 the way. He didn't say, I'm going to send it to the pope 795 01:03:30.679 --> 01:03:31.800 and he can tell everybody what's right and wrong. Right, he said, 796 01:03:31.840 --> 01:03:37.199 I submit it to the decision of the universal Church in book three and so 797 01:03:37.239 --> 01:03:39.960 what happened, Well, they did the church accept in Toto everything that the 798 01:03:39.960 --> 01:03:44.599 Augustins said about the twiney. No, it went with the Cappadocian model of 799 01:03:44.639 --> 01:03:52.199 the Trinity at Constantinople one. Well, I think we're gonna wrap that up 800 01:03:52.239 --> 01:03:55.440 there before we complete the end. I'm just gonna ask for like one or 801 01:03:55.480 --> 01:04:00.840 two sentenced answers to some of the questions that people ask us to ask you. 802 01:04:06.159 --> 01:04:12.320 So the first question is, Um, I didn't know. I didn't 803 01:04:12.320 --> 01:04:15.960 completely understand this one, but I'll ask it anyways. Do you think that 804 01:04:15.079 --> 01:04:20.199 psychosymatic prayer is odd or superfluous? I think that may be referring to hissy 805 01:04:20.239 --> 01:04:26.039 cousin. I'm more certain. Do you understand well, if it's if it's 806 01:04:26.039 --> 01:04:29.920 referring to the tradition of Saint gregor poalum Us, No, that's Orthodox. 807 01:04:30.360 --> 01:04:34.599 Um. Do you find just elaborating on that question, do you find it 808 01:04:36.320 --> 01:04:41.119 repetitive or is that a good It is repetitive, but that's a good thing. 809 01:04:41.239 --> 01:04:45.119 What are your thoughts on it? Um? I think that if people 810 01:04:45.119 --> 01:04:48.039 are moving into doing that, they should consult their spiritual father. Um. 811 01:04:48.639 --> 01:04:54.639 So you know that's a practice that people don't typically dive into right away, 812 01:04:54.719 --> 01:04:56.840 or if they're new to Orthodox or something like that. So I would say 813 01:04:56.880 --> 01:04:59.920 consult your spiritual father on that topic. I'm not going to tell people what 814 01:05:00.039 --> 01:05:04.440 to do, but I think there's a place for repetitions in prayer because Jesus 815 01:05:04.440 --> 01:05:10.800 doesn't say all repetitions bad, He just says vain repetition true. And next 816 01:05:10.880 --> 01:05:15.559 question is what translations of scripture would you recommend? That people just stay clear 817 01:05:15.639 --> 01:05:19.119 of because there's people, many people translate the Bible into English. What are 818 01:05:19.119 --> 01:05:25.280 there any that you think are just completely Yeah, I would just stay away 819 01:05:25.320 --> 01:05:30.320 from all of the Protestant translations and anything that's new U. I typically just 820 01:05:30.400 --> 01:05:32.840 use the Orthodox Study Bible, and I know there's the Eastern Orthodox Bible, 821 01:05:32.880 --> 01:05:35.920 so those are probably be the best. I would stay away from everything else. 822 01:05:36.239 --> 01:05:39.880 I mean, if you're if you're a scholar academic, you might could 823 01:05:39.960 --> 01:05:43.800 utilize, you know, some of the Roman Calaric translations, like the New 824 01:05:43.880 --> 01:05:46.360 Jerusalem Bible or something like that, but that wouldn't I would just use that 825 01:05:46.400 --> 01:05:50.159 maybe as a cross reference. I wouldn't make that like my primary Bible. 826 01:05:54.039 --> 01:05:58.119 And could you just give me a word on Oregon? What are your thoughts 827 01:05:58.119 --> 01:06:01.840 on you know, bringing up with you on what we think about it. 828 01:06:02.280 --> 01:06:09.039 Yeah, Origin was actually condemned by it's either Saint Optatus or Saint h I 829 01:06:09.039 --> 01:06:12.719 think the Saint Optatus in his day wrote against him. So some people will 830 01:06:12.719 --> 01:06:15.440 say, oh, he was never condemned in his day, Yes he was. 831 01:06:15.679 --> 01:06:17.199 He was condemned by the way, not just at the Fifth Council, 832 01:06:17.320 --> 01:06:21.639 but also at the sixth and seventh and he's condemned in the readings from the 833 01:06:21.639 --> 01:06:27.480 Triumph of Orthodoxy the Sonauticon. So this idea that originism isn't really condemned or 834 01:06:27.559 --> 01:06:32.360 universalism isn't really condemned, it is completely false. And you can also charity 835 01:06:33.719 --> 01:06:39.920 and you can also read the book The Confession of Saint Semphronius of Jerusalem, 836 01:06:40.000 --> 01:06:44.719 which is accepted of the Sixth Council, which has a four page condemnation of 837 01:06:44.760 --> 01:06:54.519 the entire system of originism. Next question is what's the difference between absolute devine 838 01:06:54.519 --> 01:07:00.880 cypicity and the divine cypicity which we do actually believe. What's the difference or 839 01:07:00.960 --> 01:07:04.599 the Orthodox view of divine simplicity is that God does not have parts. God 840 01:07:04.719 --> 01:07:12.320 is not acted upon, God is not created. God does not have undergo 841 01:07:12.760 --> 01:07:15.239 change his essence, his nature, his attributes, his being does not change. 842 01:07:16.079 --> 01:07:21.280 But we do believe that God can do different things. And that's the 843 01:07:21.280 --> 01:07:25.239 notion in which a lot of Roman Calx and Thomas would disagree with. And 844 01:07:25.280 --> 01:07:29.000 if you read doctor David Bradshaw's excellent book Arsaul, East and West, he'll 845 01:07:29.000 --> 01:07:34.840 point out that when the Kappadocians explain divine simplicity, they explain that in that 846 01:07:34.920 --> 01:07:40.159 day, in that time, the focus wasn't or all of the attributes synonymous 847 01:07:40.199 --> 01:07:44.519 with the essence. It was about whether God is, whether God acts or 848 01:07:44.599 --> 01:07:47.079 is acted upon, and so the idea that God has acted upon, as 849 01:07:47.119 --> 01:07:51.440 if he can be changed or influenced is false. However, there is a 850 01:07:51.480 --> 01:07:55.599 notion of God being able to do different things, and so Saint Gregory Palamas 851 01:07:55.679 --> 01:08:03.960 says in the Dialogue with barleym the Barley might when God wrested from his works, 852 01:08:04.000 --> 01:08:09.000 that showed us that he ceased the work of creation. So God does 853 01:08:09.079 --> 01:08:13.199 different works. So the very text that says God ceased from his works on 854 01:08:13.239 --> 01:08:15.479 the seventh Day, Saint Gary Palmers says, that proves the US and synergy 855 01:08:15.479 --> 01:08:23.239 distection. I think the last question is do you think that hope on Arius 856 01:08:23.319 --> 01:08:27.359 was an error when he condemned the council. That was just the question. 857 01:08:27.720 --> 01:08:31.000 Yes, I think that the Council would not make a mistake by excommunicating him 858 01:08:31.039 --> 01:08:35.760 for his theological error. He's not excommunicated because he had a private opinion. 859 01:08:35.800 --> 01:08:45.319 He's excommunicated for a public statement of error. And the Seventh Council and the 860 01:08:45.359 --> 01:08:48.960 Sonaticon restate the condemnation. So again, it's it's not a people that try 861 01:08:48.960 --> 01:08:53.439 to play these games of Oh but he wasn't really condemned. Oh, it 862 01:08:53.479 --> 01:08:56.479 was just his private opinion. Now that's not true. He's condemned to the 863 01:08:56.520 --> 01:09:00.399 Seventh Council, and he's condemned again the sonaticon. I think I know he's 864 01:09:00.399 --> 01:09:04.720 condemned again to the Seven Council. I think that the Sonoticon repeats him. 865 01:09:04.800 --> 01:09:09.000 Yeah. Um, well, I think that's it. That's all the persons. 866 01:09:09.039 --> 01:09:15.680 Thank you so much for joining. I'm sorry if I rambled. I 867 01:09:15.680 --> 01:09:18.000 thought we were probably going for a really long time, and I didn't mean 868 01:09:18.000 --> 01:09:25.039 to like talk up the whole time, so as nice to learn more. 869 01:09:25.439 --> 01:09:29.840 It's fine, it wasn't half the time. I'm too stupid to talk. 870 01:09:29.880 --> 01:09:33.680 So I'm glad that you saw it, honestly. Like, my only concern 871 01:09:33.760 --> 01:09:38.359 going into this video is, like I watched I was showing a bunch of 872 01:09:38.399 --> 01:09:45.800 Catholic videos of either Abbots being way too radical in their belief Like there's some 873 01:09:45.840 --> 01:09:50.119 guy in Paris who just trying to sermon how Orthodox people are sent by the 874 01:09:50.199 --> 01:09:55.479 devil, and you know, like encouraging people to fight Orthodox see with any 875 01:09:55.479 --> 01:10:00.039 means possible, and just like some some crazy dude from Paris, and I 876 01:10:00.039 --> 01:10:02.319 I don't want to. I don't because so many people are converting, so 877 01:10:02.319 --> 01:10:05.319 they're getting upset. Yeah I think so, I think so. And then 878 01:10:05.359 --> 01:10:10.479 also there's like the very politically inspired, very liberal kind of you know, 879 01:10:10.560 --> 01:10:14.720 Catholic abbots that are just like I watched a guy on YouTube. He was 880 01:10:14.760 --> 01:10:17.880 on like a big YouTube channel, and he was asked questions about like basic 881 01:10:17.960 --> 01:10:23.760 Christian principles like vengeance and like you know, personal vengeance and stuff, and 882 01:10:23.800 --> 01:10:26.800 he was explaining to the guy like, oh, yeah, you can. 883 01:10:27.119 --> 01:10:29.920 You can vengeance a little bit, you know, if you if the enemy 884 01:10:29.920 --> 01:10:33.239 did enough wrong, then you can you know, like compromise your Christian morals 885 01:10:33.239 --> 01:10:36.479 it's fine and still be Catholic just to you know, like recruit human stuff. 886 01:10:36.680 --> 01:10:40.880 So I don't want I don't want like this channel to become too rigid 887 01:10:40.920 --> 01:10:44.319 to the point where we inspire people to do un Christian things, nor too 888 01:10:44.399 --> 01:10:46.920 liberal at the point where we again inspire people to do un Christian things. 889 01:10:47.279 --> 01:10:51.560 I just don't want people to to use this as fuel against their neighbors, 890 01:10:51.640 --> 01:10:56.279 against their alloted minds, or it's just theology. It's important. I'm not 891 01:10:56.319 --> 01:11:00.000 saying it's not important. I just don't want it to cause like bad feelings 892 01:11:00.039 --> 01:11:03.520 hate and from God, because you know, hate, it's never He's never 893 01:11:03.600 --> 01:11:09.279 from Gods. I certainly don't hate Roman Catholics, even the ones that are 894 01:11:09.279 --> 01:11:12.199 really upset and come after us. I mean I don't hate them. And 895 01:11:12.239 --> 01:11:15.800 I mean I've cultivated, you know, a pretty good relationship with Tim Gordon, 896 01:11:15.880 --> 01:11:18.039 and we've been doing some great podcasts and uh, you know we're going 897 01:11:18.119 --> 01:11:24.760 to have a future civil debate on Palamism and Tomism in person. So yeah, 898 01:11:25.000 --> 01:11:27.600 I have a lot of Catholic friends still, and uh, I don't 899 01:11:27.640 --> 01:11:30.720 want to be in those people's enemies. Um, but you know, we 900 01:11:30.800 --> 01:11:33.439 just we just want the best for them and to come out of the delusion 901 01:11:33.479 --> 01:11:40.760 and into the Orthodox Churches. And another thing is, oh sorry, oh 902 01:11:40.840 --> 01:11:46.199 it's just another thing is that some like lots of Catholics don't really know about 903 01:11:46.000 --> 01:11:50.520 the Orthodox Church. A lot of them don't know much about their own faith 904 01:11:50.800 --> 01:11:56.920 and don't question it, so they kind of are ignorance, you know, 905 01:11:57.199 --> 01:12:00.520 they don't they don't really know. And what we can do is we'll always 906 01:12:01.359 --> 01:12:06.119 benefit of the death. Yeah, I think we should always be charitable, 907 01:12:06.239 --> 01:12:10.479 so charitable. Like I said earlier, it does not and this is something 908 01:12:10.640 --> 01:12:15.119 to before we can like sign off to those watching. We want to be 909 01:12:15.199 --> 01:12:20.279 charitable with everyone and we don't want hatred. Just like strangers said. So, 910 01:12:20.319 --> 01:12:25.159 I've made a point of trying to just steer clear of being like you 911 01:12:25.159 --> 01:12:30.760 guys are completely absurd as individuals. You're we hate you, We don't like 912 01:12:30.840 --> 01:12:35.199 you. Know, we love Catholic people. We don't believe in Catholicism, 913 01:12:35.199 --> 01:12:40.199 but as people think the only reason we're wasting our time doing these videos or 914 01:12:40.399 --> 01:12:46.359 trying to say we think our theology is correct because we'd like you to have 915 01:12:46.600 --> 01:12:50.279 what we believe to be the formans of the trust and to give you that 916 01:12:50.319 --> 01:12:57.199 opportunity. Otherwise, we would love to sit down and hang out with you 917 01:12:57.239 --> 01:13:00.800 guys as individuals, but as at bottom line is, there is one true 918 01:13:00.880 --> 01:13:04.079 church. It was established by Jesus Christ, and for that reason we have 919 01:13:04.159 --> 01:13:13.079 to emphasize differences between the communions exactly. Yeah, we'll put otherwise. I 920 01:13:13.199 --> 01:13:16.439 think that's Kyle and the Orthodox squad signing off, and that's je guy right 921 01:13:16.479 --> 01:13:18.880 there. Thank you guys, We'll see you next time.