1 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:22,000 We're back with another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emilie Rshinsky, 2 00:00:22,039 --> 00:00:25,039 culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show 3 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:29,079 at radio at Federalist dot com, follow us on Twitter at fdr LST. 4 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:33,759 Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts into the premium version of our 5 00:00:33,759 --> 00:00:38,520 website as well. Today we are joined by Seth Kaplan. He's a leading 6 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:42,600 expert on fragile states, a professional lecturer in the Paul H. Nitza School 7 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:47,240 of Advanced International Studies at Johns Hopkins University. He's a senior advisor for the 8 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:52,759 Institute for Integrated Transitions and a consultant to multilateral organizations like the World Bank, 9 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:58,679 the State Department, USAI D, the OECD, all kinds of NGOs. 10 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:03,040 Says that it's also the other the new book, Fragile Neighborhoods. It's out 11 00:01:03,079 --> 00:01:08,719 on October seventeenth, the subheading I want to get into it's repairing American Society 12 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:12,599 one zip code at a time. Seth, thank you for joining the show 13 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:17,200 and congratulations on the new book. Thank you so much, and it's a 14 00:01:17,239 --> 00:01:21,439 pleasure to be with you. Emily. You are a busy man all kinds 15 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:25,480 of advice to give to all kinds of people who need advice. Why was 16 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:30,120 this book an important place for you to put some of this research and some 17 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:36,280 of this argumentation into right now? Well, clearly, I spent a lot 18 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:40,319 of time on fragile societies. People in Washington, if you mentioned my name, 19 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:46,239 they'll say I'm the fragile states expert, or conflict prevention or political transition, 20 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:51,840 something like that. I'm using Nigeria, Libya, Middle East. But 21 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:56,719 as you know, and as I think our listeners know, over the last 22 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:00,120 many years, we've become much more worried about our own society. And people 23 00:02:00,159 --> 00:02:06,640 started asking me twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, you can guess why people started 24 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:12,240 asking me over whenever I would meet them, is America another fragile state? 25 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,080 And I'm like, I just came back from Nigeria, I just came back 26 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:19,919 from Somali, and I'm saying it's not the same. I'm sorry, however 27 00:02:20,039 --> 00:02:23,680 depressed you might be about the state of America. We're doing pretty well compared 28 00:02:23,719 --> 00:02:30,000 to most places, Yet there is something wrong. We are very worried about 29 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:32,400 the health of our society, and yet and we have a lot of books. 30 00:02:32,439 --> 00:02:37,800 You can find dozens of books Bob Putnam Onward with lots and lots of 31 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:42,360 books and not many answers. So I said, this is a challenge I 32 00:02:42,439 --> 00:02:46,159 need to take on, but there's not an easy answer. So I spent 33 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:53,240 many years asking people questions, talking to people, running seminars, traveling around 34 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:59,680 the country, and this book is my answer to all those people who asked 35 00:02:59,759 --> 00:03:06,759 me those questions. It's also very much an attempt to be practical. We 36 00:03:07,039 --> 00:03:12,400 like to complain about what's wrong with America. We like to think that there's 37 00:03:12,439 --> 00:03:16,840 a magic bullet, or there's change a politician, change of policy, and 38 00:03:16,879 --> 00:03:21,800 we're going to be a better country. And I'm mostly skeptical. I live 39 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:25,199 in Washington, so of course I'm skeptical of politicians and policy. But my 40 00:03:25,599 --> 00:03:31,120 attempt here is to be practical and to show what each person in the audience 41 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:38,479 can do to help their neighborhoods and their towns and their cities. There's a 42 00:03:38,479 --> 00:03:40,680 part in the introduction that really struck me, and I wanted to ask you 43 00:03:40,719 --> 00:03:46,039 about some of these experiences. You're talking about how you've long enjoyed working in 44 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:50,479 these places you write, and that's you know, places are in the world 45 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:53,919 because despite the difficult conditions that people are simply the people are simply much warmer. 46 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:58,800 The relationship's much thicker than what I've experienced in countless neighborhoods here in the 47 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:01,000 US. You go on in the paragraph to right. In Cairo, for 48 00:04:01,039 --> 00:04:04,879 example, a family I barely knew once took me in for three days as 49 00:04:04,919 --> 00:04:10,199 I recuperated from heat sickness. In northern Nigeria, after I traveled ten hours 50 00:04:10,199 --> 00:04:13,800 from Lagos to Cano to visit a friend, only to discover that he was 51 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:15,720 away. This was before most people in the region had phones. His roommate, 52 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:18,519 whom I had never met, immediately offered me place to stay and help 53 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:21,040 getting around the city. And in Mumbai, a family let me stay with 54 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:25,920 them for a week, despite the scarcity of water, which flowed so irregularly 55 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:30,199 that the family conserved it in as many buckets as they could. What were 56 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:33,279 these over, you know, all of the years that you've that you've traveled, 57 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:38,279 these all really recent experiences, And was it just recently that you started 58 00:04:38,319 --> 00:04:41,720 contrasting some of what you saw in those neighborhoods to what you've seen in the 59 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:46,439 US. Well, Well, first I would say to all of the all 60 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,680 of us who go around and can't cross the street without looking at our phone. 61 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:56,079 Imagine wandering the world without a map, without a phone and trying to 62 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:59,720 figure things out. What that does to your psyche? What is it? 63 00:05:00,439 --> 00:05:04,800 I mean, you're open, you're curious, You're having to figure things out, 64 00:05:04,879 --> 00:05:10,639 and you're forced to be eager to meet people. So I'll ask people 65 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:15,680 before I answer your question, just just try experiencing the world that way and 66 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:21,079 see how much it's different. But uh, these are experiences over many years 67 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:27,439 with many people I grew up. Let's say I was the one who wasn't 68 00:05:27,519 --> 00:05:30,720 so socially apt. I was the one who was bullied. I was the 69 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:35,360 one who was forced to step aside and say what am I doing wrong in 70 00:05:35,439 --> 00:05:40,519 terms of engaging with my classmates? And I was the one who had to 71 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:46,519 observe and study. And basically that meant that when I got when I got 72 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:49,519 older and I had a chance to go into the world out leaving college and 73 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:56,240 everything, my first reaction was to look for places where people made me feel 74 00:05:56,279 --> 00:06:00,399 welcome, where I felt warmth, where I felt a certain security in the 75 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:09,040 relationships, and that it's very was surely very subconscious, but it completely changed 76 00:06:09,079 --> 00:06:12,879 the direction of my life at many points. So, for one, when 77 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:15,959 I had a chance to travel, I didn't want to travel to Europe. 78 00:06:15,399 --> 00:06:18,879 I didn't want to travel to the wealthy world because the wealthy world first, 79 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:23,439 everybody does that, and I like to do what everyone doesn't do. But 80 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:29,000 also I learned very early on at some conferences, the people that were warmest 81 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:32,959 to me, that were the most present, the most willing to sit down 82 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:38,199 and just have a conversation, the least judgmental, were often people from the 83 00:06:38,319 --> 00:06:43,800 poorest countries, from Africa, from South Asia, from Middle East, from 84 00:06:43,879 --> 00:06:47,920 Latin America. It's partly because their countries don't work well that did depend upon 85 00:06:47,959 --> 00:06:51,839 each other, but it affects the culture in any way. So when I 86 00:06:51,879 --> 00:06:56,959 had a chance to wander, and I literally spent years wandering before I actually 87 00:06:56,959 --> 00:07:00,079 figured out what I was doing with my life. I was mostly trying to 88 00:07:00,079 --> 00:07:02,399 figure out what is this world that we live in, What are all these 89 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:08,240 what are all these different countries societies all about? And I just took books. 90 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:11,160 We didn't have an iPhone or an iPad in those days, not that 91 00:07:11,199 --> 00:07:14,240 I want to date myself, but I would carry books and I would go 92 00:07:14,279 --> 00:07:16,519 to different places, and the places I went to most were the places where 93 00:07:16,519 --> 00:07:20,839 the relationships were strongest. And then when I had when I had to pivot. 94 00:07:20,879 --> 00:07:25,360 I was in business for several years. I worked in some countries, 95 00:07:25,639 --> 00:07:29,480 and I decided that I really wanted to do something that was close to my 96 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:32,040 heart. You can imagine you get into your thirties, You're thinking really hard, 97 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:35,879 how do I turn all this wandering into something practical? And I wanted 98 00:07:35,959 --> 00:07:41,360 you something that was passionate about the question that bothered me most was this question 99 00:07:41,439 --> 00:07:46,040 about do some states? Why do some states work better than others? And 100 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:50,759 what I saw was most people were looking at that question very technically. And 101 00:07:50,879 --> 00:07:57,639 I had studied the relationships, and I had studied social dynamics without without actually 102 00:07:57,639 --> 00:08:01,120 consciously doing it, but I had done it every where. All those stories 103 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:05,160 you mentioned were my personal experiences, and they stayed with me, just the 104 00:08:05,199 --> 00:08:09,160 way relationships on a day to day basis. Somehow I'm watching them, I'm 105 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:13,399 paying attention to them, and I'm feeling them, maybe in a way that 106 00:08:13,519 --> 00:08:18,279 other people might not. Something about my childhood experience. So I focused. 107 00:08:18,279 --> 00:08:22,160 When I focused on fragile states, it took all this knowledge to be practical. 108 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:26,160 I started with the idea that relationships matter most, and that was my 109 00:08:26,279 --> 00:08:31,320 experience. Countries are very strong. Relationships are very strong social collesion. They 110 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:35,799 did very well. Think I lived in Japan, the most cohesive lards country. 111 00:08:37,639 --> 00:08:41,399 I lived in Nigeria, probably the least cohesive lards countries, So partly 112 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:46,960 by coincidence, I had traveled between the least and most cohesive country, and 113 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:52,399 those relationships shaped everything else. The violence, the politics, economics, and 114 00:08:52,519 --> 00:08:56,840 that sort of has led me on this trajectory all these years later. And 115 00:08:56,879 --> 00:09:03,000 you start with the question of poverty, which the left talks about almost entirely 116 00:09:03,039 --> 00:09:07,240 in a material context, and that's entirely understandable in fact, because it's a 117 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:11,840 poverty of material wealth. But that chapter, I think, really gets at 118 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:16,159 this question about the material versus if we want to stick with alliteration, the 119 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:22,159 metaphysical, that sort of question of chicken or egg. The Left says that 120 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:28,080 all of these social problems are downstream of the lack of material wealth. If 121 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:31,919 we sort of help people cover some of the basics, then all of these 122 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:37,360 downstream problems of social cohesion will be much easier to solve, and may in 123 00:09:37,399 --> 00:09:41,080 fact solve themselves. You're right about how the right gets this question wrong too, 124 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:43,000 that if we just sort of patch everything up, we can get back 125 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:48,039 to these market solutions, etc. Etc. So, how does that question 126 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:54,080 of poverty in America, which depending on where you are, can be concentrated 127 00:09:54,120 --> 00:10:00,000 in some really tragic ways, how does that affect this question of social cohesion 128 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:03,240 in the United States and the decline, especially of social cohesion in the United 129 00:10:03,279 --> 00:10:09,240 States. I think I can answer your question on multiple levels. First, 130 00:10:09,279 --> 00:10:16,000 clearly, if you're on the street and you have no family and you're a 131 00:10:16,159 --> 00:10:22,639 child, there are some very clear material needs that that person simply requires to 132 00:10:22,639 --> 00:10:26,720 get through the day. I can remember being in eastern Kentucky one of my 133 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:31,440 chapters, and the percentage of children in the worst of this is a ninety 134 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:39,600 seven ninety eight percent white area, very strong problems with drugs and then some 135 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:45,840 criminality connected to drugs, and huge problems with employment you have. I think 136 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:48,200 it was up to a quarter of the kids did not know where they were 137 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:52,039 going to sleep that night. So I don't want to say that the material 138 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:56,759 is not important. But what I do want to say very importantly is each 139 00:10:58,279 --> 00:11:03,440 person, especially you, but the same for adults. We cannot thrive with 140 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:07,000 bread alone. I mean, I've heard that someplace having you, so, 141 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:13,279 I mean the whole point is we need to we need relationships, we need 142 00:11:13,399 --> 00:11:18,320 love, We need social support. And that means in the home, that 143 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:20,600 means on the street, that means in the neighborhood. And I will say, 144 00:11:20,879 --> 00:11:26,000 I know you focused on on poor poor, but I want to say, 145 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:31,320 in America a lot of people who are materially well off are also socially 146 00:11:31,399 --> 00:11:35,240 poor. I think if you look at our talk about social cohesion, you 147 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:37,279 can think about social cohesion in the neighborhood. You can also talk about social 148 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:43,279 lesion. In America, I think the mistrust, the polarization, the anger, 149 00:11:43,759 --> 00:11:48,639 the pure anger we have a government, the anger we have it at 150 00:11:48,039 --> 00:11:52,559 leaders, the anger we have at each other almost in politics, is very 151 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:56,799 much because we don't have love, we don't have trust, we don't have 152 00:11:56,879 --> 00:12:03,759 strong relationships locally. But clearly, if you're a poor person and you don't 153 00:12:03,759 --> 00:12:07,600 have a family, and you don't have a strong support structure, you have 154 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:11,360 many, many disadvantages. And that is something that cannot be solved by housing 155 00:12:11,399 --> 00:12:18,360 alone. Cannot be simply fixed in a school and any society is only as 156 00:12:18,399 --> 00:12:22,879 strong as its relationships. That's something I've learned over and over and over again 157 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:26,200 in my work around the world. I think that that means something a little 158 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:30,679 bit differently in America than it lived than it means in Nigeria, where they 159 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:35,360 mostly have strong families, but they don't have any strong relationships a car across 160 00:12:35,399 --> 00:12:39,960 parts of society. They don't have strong institutions. In America, we have 161 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:45,799 good institutions, but we don't have good relationships on a personal level. And 162 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:50,960 that is most glaring if you look at poor neighborhoods with weak family structure, 163 00:12:52,399 --> 00:12:58,799 with a lot of trngient people come in in and out without strong local leaders 164 00:12:58,879 --> 00:13:03,159 and strong models, and the market is not going to solve that, and 165 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:09,200 schools alone cannot solve that. It's something that you have to go back to 166 00:13:09,279 --> 00:13:13,360 basics. We as a country have forgot the basics. I think that's true 167 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,360 in the poor neighborhoods, but I also think it's true that a lot of 168 00:13:16,399 --> 00:13:20,639 people who are materially well off are socially poor, and it affects all of 169 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:24,679 us in many ways that we don't see day to day, but it just 170 00:13:24,759 --> 00:13:31,200 makes us angrier more insecure, more vulnerable, more anxious, and I encourage 171 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:35,840 everyone to think about how your lives could be different in the way that you 172 00:13:35,879 --> 00:13:39,720 would be less anxious. You can make a greater contribution to other people, 173 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:46,559 and you can make your neighborhoods stronger. Hey, y'all, this is Sarah 174 00:13:46,639 --> 00:13:50,840 from the Sarah Carter Show. Thanks for listening to the Federalist Radio Hour. 175 00:13:50,159 --> 00:13:54,480 Healthy blood pressure is so important. 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It's blood pressure support you 184 00:14:37,759 --> 00:14:43,039 can trust. Get a free thirty day supply of Superbeats heartshoes and fifteen percent 185 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:48,639 off your first order by going to get Superbeats dot com and using promo code 186 00:14:48,679 --> 00:14:54,519 Sarah. Get super Beats be e e t s dot Com code Sarah to 187 00:14:54,559 --> 00:15:05,039 get fifteen percent off your first order. Get Superbeats dot Com promo code Sarah. 188 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:09,080 And I don't at all mean to downplay the injustices of poverty in the 189 00:15:09,159 --> 00:15:13,759 United States. But something I think about a lot is historically and Seth, 190 00:15:13,799 --> 00:15:16,639 you've you've traveled widely, so you've seen that this even you know, in 191 00:15:16,919 --> 00:15:26,279 contemporary times, Americans, middle class, lower middle class Americans are comparatively wealthy 192 00:15:26,919 --> 00:15:30,799 in terms of very wealthy, very well, right, like the basics of 193 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,960 your talking, I wish I wish I could, Yes, I wish I 194 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:37,399 could take half the things in my house and give them away. And we 195 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:41,840 have too many things right right, And the issue of for instance, hunger. 196 00:15:41,879 --> 00:15:46,320 Of course, there are some people who experience the difficulties obtaining food. 197 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:48,360 But food is incredibly cheap in America, and that is not the so of 198 00:15:48,399 --> 00:15:52,639 the world. It was not the case historically. Is there something to learn 199 00:15:52,919 --> 00:15:58,080 about? Uh the is there something that we can learn about? How having 200 00:15:58,279 --> 00:16:03,759 you know the if you have all of your basic maslow needs met and still 201 00:16:03,639 --> 00:16:08,120 there's something missing from the puzzle, that is, you know, dragging the 202 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:11,279 quality of life down. Is there something we can learn just from the United 203 00:16:11,279 --> 00:16:15,200 States being such a wealthy country to the point where even the basic needs are 204 00:16:15,279 --> 00:16:21,559 met from for some of our most poor, and yet it's still a very 205 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:26,200 painful time in the US. Well, I think we feel a lack of 206 00:16:26,279 --> 00:16:32,240 love, we feel a lack of support, we feel very vulnerable. These 207 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:37,399 are things that cannot be solved by material goods. And I think the easiest 208 00:16:37,399 --> 00:16:41,919 way to see that, I mean, we point to what I would call 209 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:48,080 distress neighborhoods where you have about a one third or above, a thirty percent 210 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:52,480 or above of the population is poor. In those neighborhoods, you tend to 211 00:16:52,519 --> 00:16:57,440 have very few married families, You tend to have a lot of instability, 212 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:02,039 you tend to have more violence. You do not have a lot of supporting 213 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:07,680 institutions. Even churches often have people coming from outside the neighborhood. People are 214 00:17:07,799 --> 00:17:11,519 using those churches. You don't have strong communities, and so it's very hard 215 00:17:11,839 --> 00:17:17,960 to think of how one of those people can climb out of their situation without 216 00:17:18,279 --> 00:17:23,519 those supporting structures. But I also think it's important to recognize for however materially 217 00:17:23,559 --> 00:17:27,079 well off we are, we all will feel I mean, I look at 218 00:17:27,079 --> 00:17:32,880 my neighborhood. My neighborhood gives me joy. My neighborhood is so unusual because 219 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:37,319 I walk down the street, I know my neighbors. I pass whatever a 220 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,559 park and I know the kids in the park. I go to the restaurant 221 00:17:41,599 --> 00:17:44,519 nearby where I live, and I'll always bump it to someone and know, 222 00:17:45,039 --> 00:17:48,519 I feel that this community, I have a stake in it, and I 223 00:17:48,559 --> 00:17:52,720 feel that it supports me. And I would say that's so not true for 224 00:17:52,839 --> 00:17:56,200 most people. Most people they on their phone, they're in their car, 225 00:17:56,319 --> 00:18:00,680 they're in their neighborhood. So I think poor, but even those who are 226 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:04,599 materially well off, we are not going to get back to a country where 227 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:11,359 we all feel happy and we want to live lives of joy and happiness. 228 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:15,640 And that doesn't come about unless you're in strong relationships, and not if you're 229 00:18:15,799 --> 00:18:21,640 strongly supported and cureinly. If you look at social mobility, social mobility won't 230 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:25,680 go up if poor people don't have stronger families, stronger neighborhoods, They can 231 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:29,720 support them. But I think death are the sphere and problems like that. 232 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:33,200 Those are not problems only of the poor. There are problems of community collapse, 233 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:41,359 isolation, people not having strong support structures, possibly not being married or 234 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:45,640 not being in strong relationships. There's a lot of things wrong with our relationships. 235 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:49,799 It's across the board. And I just think that these are not policy 236 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:55,799 questions. These are not political questions. They are questions of society. And 237 00:18:55,839 --> 00:18:59,960 I think that if you want to fix our politics, and everybody wishes our 238 00:19:00,079 --> 00:19:06,960 politics is less angry. Politics is downstream from society. Politics is downstream from 239 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:10,799 relationships, so we can have as much. When I bring a foreign person 240 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:14,599 to this country who's never been to America before, the thing you want to 241 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:18,640 shock them more than anything else. You take them to a supermarket and you 242 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:23,119 see three hundred boxes of cereal and you go to whatever part of the First 243 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:27,880 of all, the supermarket is like five times larger than any they've been in, 244 00:19:29,319 --> 00:19:33,200 and then the aisles with the selections that are enormous. But you're not 245 00:19:33,279 --> 00:19:37,599 getting love, and you're not getting support, and you're not feeling comforted by 246 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:44,359 the number of boxes of cerrial there are in the supermarket. Yeah, that's 247 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:47,440 a really interesting point. And I was thinking when you were talking about Nigeria, 248 00:19:47,559 --> 00:19:52,000 reminded me of the title of the book because it's very specific fragile neighborhoods. 249 00:19:52,400 --> 00:20:00,079 It could be you know, fragile families, fragile parenthood, fragile churches, 250 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,200 and of course a lot of that's in the book, but you specifically 251 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:10,200 say neighborhoods. And I wanted to ask Seth why neighborhoods is so important here, 252 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:12,920 even though there are other fragile relationships, those are all part of the 253 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:18,079 mosaic of a neighborhood, and a neighborhood is part of the mosaic of a 254 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:22,920 country. So why neighborhoods for the purpose of this book. Well, first, 255 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:27,759 I do have five chapters on what we can do. I mean five 256 00:20:27,839 --> 00:20:33,160 chapters on organizations doing something. One of them is on weddings or marriage. 257 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:37,319 One of us on marriage, one of them is on family structures, which 258 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:41,440 is a little bit specific family but also in their family. One is on 259 00:20:41,599 --> 00:20:45,720 school, one is on the community building, and one is on the physical 260 00:20:45,799 --> 00:20:49,319 landscape. So I do think all of those are important, but I think 261 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:53,640 neighborhoods is the best entry point, because one, there's a lot of data 262 00:20:55,119 --> 00:21:00,000 that tells you that the differences in how each of us are experiencing America today 263 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:07,799 depends upon where we live. That could be a rural versus city. That 264 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:11,160 could be one neighborhood in a city versus another. It could be one part 265 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:15,400 of the suburbs versus another. First of all, we are all experiencing a 266 00:21:15,519 --> 00:21:22,599 different different daily level of support and happiness, and our social networks and our 267 00:21:22,599 --> 00:21:29,279 social structures and our social institutions, they're all varying tremendously based upon where we 268 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:33,200 live. So we have to first make it clear that we have a great 269 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:40,559 inequality based upon place in this country. And that means that if you're talking 270 00:21:40,559 --> 00:21:45,720 about the poor people who are growing up poor kids in these poor, distressed 271 00:21:45,759 --> 00:21:51,519 neighborhoods, they have a great, great disadvantage over somebody else. And of 272 00:21:51,519 --> 00:21:56,200 course the family and the street or the inter family networks, they matters a 273 00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:00,519 lot, but actually ultimately it's the neighborhoods. And there's data that shows you 274 00:22:00,559 --> 00:22:04,519 can grow up in an unstable family, but if your neighborhood is full of 275 00:22:04,599 --> 00:22:10,680 stable, strong families, you will do fine. And then the reverses is 276 00:22:10,759 --> 00:22:14,720 equally true that if your household is strong but your neighborhood is not, you 277 00:22:14,759 --> 00:22:18,720 will not do fine. So even what happens in your household is not offset, 278 00:22:19,039 --> 00:22:22,359 is completely offset by what is happening around you. So one is this 279 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:27,319 great experience, But I think two when we ask ourselves what can we do 280 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:33,279 about these problems? You know, social breakdown, social poverty, the problems 281 00:22:33,279 --> 00:22:38,480 of social mobility and youth, these are things deaths of the sphere, mistrust, 282 00:22:38,839 --> 00:22:42,400 alienation. If you list all of the social problems we have in this 283 00:22:42,519 --> 00:22:49,240 country, they are ultimately a problem of relationships. And the one entry point 284 00:22:49,279 --> 00:22:53,480 where we can think about what we actually can do about it and actually make 285 00:22:53,519 --> 00:22:59,759 a difference is neighborhoods. We will not be a flourishing country unless we all 286 00:22:59,799 --> 00:23:03,680 have and flourishing neighborhoods. I mean, you could try to go around and 287 00:23:03,759 --> 00:23:07,880 fix each marriage, or fix each relationship between a father and a child, 288 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:12,359 or fix each try to fix each school, or try to go around and 289 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:17,559 fix each place with a lack of economic opportunity. You could try and do 290 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:22,920 that, but I think it's very self defeating. And even though most eight 291 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:30,000 ninety nine percent of nonprofits government work is this an attempt to fix each individual 292 00:23:30,599 --> 00:23:34,039 one by one through some material means my argument, we will be much more 293 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:41,240 successful if we focus on neighborhood by neighborhood and think about what it requires to 294 00:23:41,319 --> 00:23:47,000 make each neighborhood a more successful place. And a lot of that is not 295 00:23:47,279 --> 00:23:51,279 policy. There is some policy. The biggest policy, I would say, 296 00:23:51,599 --> 00:23:56,599 is a question of we need to focus our energy to ensure that everybody actually 297 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,880 lives in what we might call a neighborhood. A lot of our country we 298 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:04,519 live in places that are not actually neighborhoods, with no center, no institutions, 299 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:10,039 no way to connect people with each other. So we can talk about 300 00:24:10,039 --> 00:24:14,039 that more. But an answer to your question, ultimately I focus on neighbors 301 00:24:14,039 --> 00:24:18,680 because it's the natural entry point to address these problems, and it means that 302 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:25,440 we must focus on the society in each place and stop focusing on the individual 303 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:32,880 with material with material gifts or material policy or material philanthropy. That is not 304 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:38,319 a solution to our problems. Yes, your chapter on the sort of physical 305 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:44,039 landscape questions are fascinating. I don't know if I've mentioned this on the podcast 306 00:24:44,079 --> 00:24:48,519 before, but I was in Kentucky for the first time recently and a pretty 307 00:24:48,519 --> 00:24:52,519 well off area of Kentucky at a shopping center, and I looked around and 308 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:56,480 the shopping center had I mean, I assume it was built by the exact 309 00:24:56,519 --> 00:25:00,559 same company that recently did one in Brookfield, Wisconsin, outside Milwaukee, not 310 00:25:00,599 --> 00:25:04,799 from from where I'm from, and it just was the most depressing thing in 311 00:25:04,839 --> 00:25:08,240 the world that had, you know, fancy new condos and all of these 312 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:14,039 upscale stores, Starbucks, but it looked exactly like you could be dropped in 313 00:25:14,079 --> 00:25:17,200 one or the other and not know whether you were in Wisconsin or Kentucky. 314 00:25:18,279 --> 00:25:22,240 And it just was incredibly depressing. And you write about how these these questions 315 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:26,880 of you know, affordable housing and housing policy that the left focus is really 316 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,880 intently on, and some people on the right are now starting to talk about 317 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:36,240 you know, that's that's all fine, but there's something missing in those conversations 318 00:25:36,279 --> 00:25:38,319 too. Can you tell us a little bit more about that. Okay, 319 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:42,039 first, let's never forget that Emily is from Wisconsin, so we should we 320 00:25:42,039 --> 00:25:48,960 should forget that so I find out more sometimes. But I think the key 321 00:25:48,039 --> 00:25:53,279 point is, you know, if you drive around America and I'm using my 322 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,720 foreign eyes, I do have foreign eyes. Sometimes when I drive in this 323 00:25:56,799 --> 00:26:03,799 country, I would just say the landscape. It's it's at times depressing because 324 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:10,519 so much is focused on on roads. It's amazing how much America is designed 325 00:26:10,559 --> 00:26:15,839 to It's built to take you from point A to point B. It's designed 326 00:26:15,839 --> 00:26:21,079 to help you get your material needs satisfied as efficiently as possible. That's why 327 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:26,559 I have boring shopping experiences and giant malls and what have you. And I 328 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,200 understand that's important. It's helped us raise our income levels. It's helped drive 329 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,839 down the cost of goods, and so we're all talking trade offs. We're 330 00:26:33,839 --> 00:26:38,519 not talking absolutes this or that. But it is depressing that so much is 331 00:26:38,559 --> 00:26:44,240 designed around highways, big roads, and so much of the country is designed 332 00:26:44,279 --> 00:26:48,359 to isolate us. Did you ever notice how little of this country physically in 333 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:53,640 terms of the shopping, in terms of the design of government, in terms 334 00:26:53,640 --> 00:27:00,240 of even when we go to go and worship, that my people drive to 335 00:27:00,319 --> 00:27:03,920 a church, they hear a sermon for two hours, they have a couple 336 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,400 of consumer interactions with their churches, and they drive home. Where is the 337 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:12,839 community building in faith? And some reason I thought the most important aspect of 338 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:19,000 faith beyond, of course the beliefs and prayer is the relationship building and the 339 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:23,440 community building. And somehow when I see a lot of houses of worship today, 340 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:29,640 that part is missing. So it's the shopping experience, even the living 341 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,880 experience. I mean, I live in a pretty good community, a pretty 342 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,960 good neighbor community, but I can drive ten minutes and I see these beautiful 343 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:42,000 houses and there's one house after another, and the houses look great. I'm 344 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:47,480 sure the inside is great, but what is it that brings the people inside 345 00:27:47,519 --> 00:27:52,599 these houses together? And we basically designed the country where each individual or each 346 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:57,680 household can thrive. But we've spent We've spent very little energy when we think 347 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:02,880 of the physical. And I would say also the institutional, because you know, 348 00:28:03,039 --> 00:28:08,759 community building and strong relationships. Ultimately, it's about local institutions. It 349 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:15,079 used to be that nonprofits were local, They depend upon local money and they 350 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,480 would support the local. Now nonprofits tend to be regional, tend to be 351 00:28:18,599 --> 00:28:22,559 national. They get funded by big philanthropy, big government, and they have 352 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,160 no connection to the local. They're doing for you, they're not doing with 353 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,319 you. And I live in a neighbor with a lot of local nonprofits. 354 00:28:30,319 --> 00:28:37,000 And also a lot of interaction and social support that's not professionalized. And so 355 00:28:37,039 --> 00:28:40,039 I would just say, if you want to deal with this bigger question of 356 00:28:40,359 --> 00:28:44,960 the problems in our country, we have to think hard about designing the country 357 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,880 around neighborhoods. And that is physical, and that is also institutional. And 358 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,400 there's a lot of institutions, and I hope there's a lot of listeners who 359 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:57,720 work for institutions or live in neighborhoods where they can actually go out the door 360 00:28:59,279 --> 00:29:02,480 and do something in their neighborhood, or they can go to their work and 361 00:29:02,559 --> 00:29:06,880 think, how do we make this organization or neighborhood focused, How do we 362 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:11,519 make what we do to be more building about building relationships and community place by 363 00:29:11,599 --> 00:29:18,440 place, because that's really the only way to address these problems. The watch 364 00:29:18,519 --> 00:29:22,359 doot on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day Chris helps unpack the 365 00:29:22,359 --> 00:29:26,039 connection between politics and the economy and how it affects your wallet. It's time 366 00:29:26,039 --> 00:29:30,359 to look into the past. After the Yamkipoor War, we had an oil 367 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,880 embargo with prices increasing over three hundred percent. As we continue to push green 368 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:38,160 energy policies, Biden has drained the strategic petroleum reserve. What kind of danger 369 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,039 have we put ourselves in? Whether it's happening in DC or down on Wall 370 00:29:41,079 --> 00:29:45,000 Street, it's affecting you financially. Be informed. Check out the Watchout on 371 00:29:45,039 --> 00:29:48,559 Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your 372 00:29:48,599 --> 00:29:56,519 podcasts. And you know, I've seen a lot of maybe post liberal conservatives 373 00:29:56,799 --> 00:30:02,640 post pictures of you know, Budapest, a town square in rural France or 374 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:04,319 something, and I'm thinking, you know, if you show this to an 375 00:30:04,359 --> 00:30:07,920 Americans, you know, we don't have a place to park our truck outside 376 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,680 this you know, little apartment, and I can't put a pool in the 377 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:18,759 backyard this tiny little place. Where do you think? But there are some 378 00:30:18,759 --> 00:30:21,680 happy mediums, you know, there are some neighborhoods in the United States that 379 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:25,880 do this all right. What does it look like when a neighborhood and maybe 380 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,200 even in America or maybe somewhere else, but what does it look like when 381 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:33,920 a neighborhood really gets this right? Well, first, I think to get 382 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:38,400 it right, you need to have local institutions and the right landscape. I 383 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,759 mean, I live in the suburbs. I mean it easily could have been 384 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:47,480 that. I mean I searched. I literally searched for several years to find 385 00:30:47,519 --> 00:30:49,480 a neighborhood. I mean, I happen to be religious and I ain't to 386 00:30:49,519 --> 00:30:53,240 walk to a synagogue, so that affects my decision. But having said that 387 00:30:53,599 --> 00:30:57,599 I was in New York, my wife and I wanted to leave the city. 388 00:30:57,759 --> 00:31:00,039 We didn't know that I would be work working in Washingt, d C. 389 00:31:00,519 --> 00:31:03,720 And we looked. We looked in places in New Jersey, we looked 390 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:10,519 in places near Philadelphia, we looked everywhere between New York City and here places 391 00:31:10,559 --> 00:31:15,920 that we could go to. And eventually someone said, come to this neighborhood 392 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,599 and see what it's like. I had some neighbor back in Brooklyn, and 393 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:23,359 I literally came and stayed here a couple of times. I checked it out. 394 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:27,279 And so what my neighborhood has. I don't think it's perfect, but 395 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:33,920 think we have an identity. Our neighborhood has an identity. We have local 396 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,920 institutions. So we have three restaurants. We have a little mall. I 397 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,799 can't say it's beautiful. It's pretty, not beautiful, but it's got three 398 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,359 restaurants. I have a pharmacy, I have a supermarket. A couple of 399 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,720 other things. There a couple of stores and what have you, other things, 400 00:31:48,759 --> 00:31:52,200 a little dentists and stuff like that. It's not huge, but those 401 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:56,440 are places to meet. We have an identity. We have places to meet. 402 00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:01,240 We have local institutions. Besides synagogue, we have we have we have 403 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:07,119 a few civic associations specifically for this neighborhood. We have some not I don't 404 00:32:07,119 --> 00:32:13,799 know if they're formal or informal, but there's non profit activities supporting each other. 405 00:32:14,119 --> 00:32:17,319 Give you an example, my daughter's best friend, my oldest child is 406 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:23,920 sixth grade. Her best friend was diagnosed with a form of cancer again eleven 407 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:30,599 years old, undergoing chemo. And when you live in a neighborhood full of 408 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:35,880 strong relationships and strong institutions, and you also have schools. We have some 409 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,839 community schools. We have a few schools, so it's competitive. They're private 410 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:43,039 schools, so it's competitive. You could the equivalent. I wish they were 411 00:32:43,119 --> 00:32:45,799 charter schools because then the government would pay for them. But you have these 412 00:32:45,799 --> 00:32:50,680 competitive schools. So we have identity, We have local institutions, we have 413 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,720 places for kids to play. And then when we have a child like this, 414 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:58,799 this eleven or twelve year old who has a problem because she has she's 415 00:32:58,839 --> 00:33:01,960 having chemo. She's here, and you could easily see her being in a 416 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:07,079 place where people did not come around and support her. But in my neighborhood 417 00:33:07,599 --> 00:33:12,279 we have because we have community schools. The community schools are proactively involved, 418 00:33:12,599 --> 00:33:16,960 the synagogues are proactively involved, the family network is proactively involved. There was 419 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:22,640 some some nonprofit that did something so she could go away for a week to 420 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:28,200 a special camp for people who have cancer or other of these very difficult so 421 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:32,799 she was able to so her her illness becomes not something that drags her down, 422 00:33:34,319 --> 00:33:38,279 but almost something that I don't want to use the word celebration because it's 423 00:33:38,279 --> 00:33:45,359 not a celebration, but there's joy coming out from all different institutions and all 424 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:51,599 different networks to support her in her family in this time. So a very 425 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:57,759 good neighborhood has those practical things, but most importantly, it has people who 426 00:33:57,799 --> 00:34:00,000 are caring for each other, people who know each other. I mean, 427 00:34:00,039 --> 00:34:05,720 when I walk down the street, I just I just feel secure. I 428 00:34:05,759 --> 00:34:08,039 feel happy because I know I know the neighbors. I may not know them 429 00:34:08,159 --> 00:34:10,599 very well. I tend to be in my cave, you know, writing 430 00:34:10,599 --> 00:34:15,960 books for example. But I but I know how many kids they have, 431 00:34:15,119 --> 00:34:20,440 I know where they kids go to school, a few schools. My wife 432 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:22,840 can even tell you what's wrong with their kitchen renovation. I mean, this 433 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:27,400 is basically what it's all about. And I'll give you one more example. 434 00:34:28,199 --> 00:34:30,920 In fact, I'll give you I'll give you an example my Just last week, 435 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:35,960 there was maybe a six year old on a scooter on the street in 436 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:37,920 front of my house. So we live out again, we're in the suburbs. 437 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:42,400 We do have lawns, some people do have swimming pools, not a 438 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,559 lot, but it does happen. We have some community swimming clubs near here. 439 00:34:45,599 --> 00:34:51,599 Mostly but we're our eyes are on the street like it used to be. 440 00:34:51,639 --> 00:34:53,360 So she saw the six year old on a scooter on the street in 441 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:57,920 front of me, and it's mostly safe, but at the end of the 442 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,719 street cars turn in fro a more major throwaway, and he was doing stuff 443 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:06,320 that just didn't look very safe. And she happened to see this. My 444 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,119 daughter came up from school and mentioned something was odd with this kid, and 445 00:35:09,599 --> 00:35:13,840 she bolted out of the front door. And immediately I have to say, 446 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,360 chase that kid back to his house. And we know the family. I 447 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,840 can't say we know them very well. I wouldn't call them friends. I 448 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,519 would call them acquainted. Just your neighborhood is mostly full of people you recognize, 449 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:29,280 you know, you trust. You could go over to their house if 450 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:32,159 you need something. Some of your neighbors will be good friends. But there's 451 00:35:32,199 --> 00:35:37,320 a lot of people you just know and you trust that aren't best buddies. 452 00:35:37,599 --> 00:35:40,159 But you all feel part of your You belong to each other, You're part 453 00:35:40,199 --> 00:35:45,119 of your stakeholders in a common entity. She surely felt that she was a 454 00:35:45,159 --> 00:35:50,800 stakeholder and had to keep that kid safe. And I asked our listeners, 455 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,519 how many of you would go out of your front yard to go and chase 456 00:35:53,559 --> 00:35:58,159 that kid off the street before he got himself into trouble. That is the 457 00:35:58,159 --> 00:36:01,440 behavior you see. And I'll give you one more story. When my daughter 458 00:36:01,559 --> 00:36:06,760 dropped her brother once on the cement that wasn't very pretty or not. People 459 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,679 can't see me, but I'm feeling my right below my mouth here, and 460 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:15,559 he was all bloody. My wife picked up probably was about a three year 461 00:36:15,599 --> 00:36:19,360 old boy at that point, and took off down the street without telling us 462 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,320 where she was going. You can you imagine a mother picking up this kid 463 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,480 who just fell on the cement because she knew where the closest nurse was, 464 00:36:27,079 --> 00:36:30,320 so she immediately knew that if she needed help. In fact, we must 465 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:34,079 know for various reasons, we know all the doctors, all the nurses in 466 00:36:34,119 --> 00:36:37,519 our neighborhood. She knew that she had to go three blocks to get to 467 00:36:37,559 --> 00:36:39,960 that nurse, hopefully the nurse would be home, and she didn't even wait. 468 00:36:40,519 --> 00:36:45,079 So this is what happens in a strong neighbor neighbor You have institutions, 469 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:51,239 you have the places, you have the relationships, and people are taking care 470 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:53,559 of each other in a way that I don't think we see in most of 471 00:36:53,599 --> 00:36:59,079 this country today. I think it was common throughout human history. I think 472 00:36:59,079 --> 00:37:02,199 it was common in a control sixty years seventy years ago. It is not 473 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:07,000 common today. And the question for everybody should be what can you do to 474 00:37:07,039 --> 00:37:12,039 make your neighborhood more like this? You quote Mary Eberstatt in the book, 475 00:37:12,079 --> 00:37:15,199 and we've had Mary on a couple of times. I absolutely love Primal Screams. 476 00:37:15,199 --> 00:37:17,320 It's one of my favorite books. Yes, No, And I want 477 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:22,480 to ask, maybe from some international perspective, on the thesis that Mary advances 478 00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:28,519 in primal screams, which is that the sexual revolution and all of its downstream 479 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:32,440 consequences that people might not associate in any way whatsoever with the sexual revolution, 480 00:37:32,519 --> 00:37:37,760 but actually are as Mary argues, don't stream of the sexual revolution. That 481 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:42,559 is when for the United States social fabrics started to unravel, and much of 482 00:37:42,559 --> 00:37:45,519 the West, social fabrics started to unravel. As you travel and you think 483 00:37:45,519 --> 00:37:52,280 about some of these strong communities, these these non fragile neighborhoods and other parts 484 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:55,480 of the world, do you see that, do you Is that something that 485 00:37:55,480 --> 00:38:00,119 can help explain neighborhood cohesion, not just the States, but in other parts 486 00:38:00,159 --> 00:38:05,599 of the world. Is that something that's a part of this problem. I 487 00:38:05,599 --> 00:38:08,199 think it's definitely a part of the problem. When I put everything onto that, 488 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:12,960 I mean, I think some of it is that is how we've designed 489 00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:15,840 the country, I believe. I mean, if you look at the data, 490 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,880 forgive me for bringing up numbers a little bit, but if you look 491 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:24,800 at the data, you know there's a lot of we are wealthier than most 492 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:30,840 countries, but there are several dozen, let's say, thirty forty wealthy countries, 493 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:37,360 and there's a lot you can learn across the countries and the United States 494 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:43,159 is an outlier on problems with deaths of the spear and suicide. It's an 495 00:38:43,199 --> 00:38:47,840 outlier and how it treats it children. I mean the data just comparing us 496 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:52,679 to the European Union, there's not a big gap on, for example, 497 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:57,199 marriage. When I looked at the data European universities of the United States, 498 00:38:57,599 --> 00:39:01,079 there's a three percentage point gap on marriage, which is not a lot, 499 00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:06,480 but in terms of five and under with two parents, there's something like an 500 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,840 eighteen percent gap with space. Means a lot of people in Europe, especially 501 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:15,519 in Northern Europe, are not getting married, but they're being responsible to their 502 00:39:15,599 --> 00:39:19,960 kids. And in America you have a lot of people having kids and forget 503 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,079 the marriage equation. If we could just have people be responsible for their kids, 504 00:39:24,199 --> 00:39:27,599 that would make a huge difference. I mean, the same way we 505 00:39:27,639 --> 00:39:34,760 had people to have fewer teenage pregnancies. We need a national campaign for responsibility 506 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:39,320 for small children. So when you talk about what she says, I think 507 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:44,719 something about the decayed and compare it to countries. The countries that I work 508 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:49,719 in are some of the most fragile states in the world. You always have 509 00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:55,159 some problem of political violence, some problems of instability, government breakdown, coups 510 00:39:55,280 --> 00:40:00,760 in many cases. In the worst cases, you have wars. I mean, 511 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:04,960 I work in Columbia, which has had a they're mostly behind it, 512 00:40:05,039 --> 00:40:07,280 not completely, but they've had a civil war for fifty years. I go 513 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:13,199 to Mexico. Mexico, one third of the country is not very safe because 514 00:40:13,199 --> 00:40:15,719 of drug cartels. Of course, I work in Nigeria, Nigeria. If 515 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:20,679 you're in there, if you're taking highway, you better go in the daytime. 516 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:22,880 You won't want to go in the evening. When I lived in Nigeria 517 00:40:22,079 --> 00:40:25,519 was much safer. But even then I had a car shot at once because 518 00:40:25,519 --> 00:40:30,880 we were driving too close to dusk. And you've never seen a driver change 519 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:35,159 of flat tire faster in your life, because he had three three good, 520 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:37,960 three good wheels, and he wouldn't stop. He just kept going with three 521 00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:42,599 good wheels until he got to a place with a light a few miles down 522 00:40:42,599 --> 00:40:45,440 the road. And before you could you could have hauled your breath. And 523 00:40:45,519 --> 00:40:49,880 the time it took him to change that tire, I still remember this twenty 524 00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:53,920 some years later. But but what you don't have is you don't have problems 525 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:58,280 of family. You don't have problems of community for the most part. You 526 00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:01,400 have it in some places. I can think of parts of Latin America where 527 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:07,119 there is significant family breakdown and community breakdown. But a place like Africa, 528 00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:13,800 especially the Middle East, India, these are places where family is very strong, 529 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:19,760 community is very strong. You don't have these types of problems. You 530 00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,519 have a you have a whole set of different problems that we don't have because 531 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:28,719 we're materially well off. But these types of relationship problems, I mean, 532 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:32,480 they're just shocking. It's shocking that you can live in a country that is 533 00:41:32,639 --> 00:41:37,920 well off as we are, and yet we have such social problems, and 534 00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:42,039 the problems are much worse than in Europe. I think. I think that 535 00:41:42,159 --> 00:41:44,599 to me is the I mean, we don't want to be like Europe. 536 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:47,519 We're doing much better than Europe on many levels. But I do think something 537 00:41:47,559 --> 00:41:52,880 about Europe being built around A lot of their cities are built around old neighborhoods. 538 00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:58,519 Walk around in an Italian city and the neighborhoods are celebrated, celebrated in 539 00:41:58,559 --> 00:42:02,920 the architecture, lebrated in the layout of the cities, because these are cities 540 00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:07,840 that were built before there were cars, And I mean, I mean, 541 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:13,159 if we were to build our physical landscape and around neighborhoods, and then have 542 00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:21,760 civic associations and schools and local associations and churches, and they were all place 543 00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:27,159 based, all of these would be incubating relationships. All of them would be 544 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:31,079 helping each other build stronger community, and each of us whould feel that we 545 00:42:31,079 --> 00:42:36,840 were in a much more joyful, supporting set of relationships. Even if we 546 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:40,159 didn't have friends, we would have things to participate in, things to join. 547 00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:43,639 I mean, just to see what people do in my neighbor I have 548 00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:46,079 a neighbor. I'm at nine ten on my street. I have a neighbor 549 00:42:46,119 --> 00:42:50,719 in nine oh three. She must be the most giving person or neighborhood. 550 00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:54,400 She goes around every week and she knows where elderly people live who live alone, 551 00:42:54,800 --> 00:43:00,639 and she is knocking on those doors and she's just stopping buying talking for 552 00:43:00,679 --> 00:43:02,760 thirty minutes, and no one's asked her to do that. She just feels 553 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:07,360 a steak in the neighborhood and a stake in people's lives. And I asked 554 00:43:08,199 --> 00:43:13,440 people on this listening to us, who was doing that in your neighborhood and 555 00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:16,559 how much the difference that makes in people's lives, and if your neighborhood is 556 00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:22,880 like that, people will behave like that. Now I imagine a question on 557 00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:24,360 a lot of people's minds at this point, and you do address this in 558 00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:31,440 the book is what about COVID? How did COVID accelerate change this problem in 559 00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:36,559 the United States and elsewhere? As you were writing this seth what was your 560 00:43:36,599 --> 00:43:42,440 assessment on how the pandemic and the lockdowns affected some of these problems. Well, 561 00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:45,840 I think what it did was it showed, first of all, it 562 00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:50,559 showed everyone how important neighborhoods were. I think the parts of the country that 563 00:43:50,679 --> 00:43:54,519 did better than others probably had strong local relations. So I remember my neighborhood 564 00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:59,599 immediate activation people started, and you can see the evidence. You can go 565 00:43:59,639 --> 00:44:04,760 around my neighbor today and you can see benches in front of houses or or 566 00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:07,960 even sofas, and what we call car ports. Here. We're a little 567 00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:12,119 bit strains. We don't have garages, yet we have something that goes over 568 00:44:12,199 --> 00:44:15,840 our driveways to put the car in. I never saw this before I moved 569 00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:19,760 to this neighborhood. I guess I'm I'm from New York, where everyone has 570 00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:23,280 a garage mostly, but I don't know about Wisconsin. So the point is 571 00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:28,519 they put sofas in their car ports because that would of course there be no 572 00:44:28,679 --> 00:44:31,159 rain or no snow, and they would put heating units or whatever they are. 573 00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:36,320 So our neighbor immediately got active. I mean WhatsApp groups formed. We 574 00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:40,599 never had WhatsApp groups before amliated WhatsApp groups. We had people putting benches in 575 00:44:40,639 --> 00:44:46,079 front of and and and people coming together groups for kids to play outdoors. 576 00:44:46,119 --> 00:44:51,360 I mean all sorts of things were activated. And of course everyone fought for 577 00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:54,000 the schools to open as soon as possible. We had to fight the county 578 00:44:54,039 --> 00:44:59,800 executive who wanted to close the schools. I'm in Montgomery County and the publics 579 00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:05,119 WO were closed an awful long time, and Governor Hogan ensure that our private 580 00:45:05,119 --> 00:45:09,440 schools are open. So I can see how my neighborhood came together, helped 581 00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:14,239 each other, brought food to people who needed to get food who couldn't go 582 00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:19,119 shopping. A lot of things were active. I can easily imagine another neighbor 583 00:45:19,159 --> 00:45:23,800 where people were much more isolated, much more alienated, did not have those 584 00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:30,440 relations. Just maybe COVID enabled them to develop relationships or encourage them to develop 585 00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:35,719 relationships. But I think a lot of people suffered COVID and a very isolating 586 00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:38,079 problem. I'm going to hear about. I hear about, for example, 587 00:45:38,159 --> 00:45:44,639 my sister and talks about his son still recovering from the because he's a very 588 00:45:44,679 --> 00:45:50,679 social person and was isolated from his kids and his classmates for a long time. 589 00:45:51,199 --> 00:45:53,519 And we, for the most part, had none of that, because 590 00:45:53,800 --> 00:46:00,559 everybody fought to keep the community a community and did lots of substitute. But 591 00:46:00,639 --> 00:46:01,960 I would say in terms of the big question, if you look at the 592 00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:07,480 big question, it's very clear that countries that are more cohesive, that have 593 00:46:07,639 --> 00:46:14,320 more trust the better in COVID. COVID was a test for the strength of 594 00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:17,840 a society. We did not do very well for many reasons. One, 595 00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:22,159 we didn't do well because a lot of our Americans aren't very healthy and they 596 00:46:22,159 --> 00:46:27,880 were therefore more at risk than other countries. We didn't do very well because 597 00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:30,320 we didn't have a lot of trust with each other, and therefore, whatever 598 00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:37,159 we thought about particular policies and politicians, we did not come together. And 599 00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:42,239 countries that come together, I mean I write about this, I work on 600 00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:45,719 political transitions. What greater test of a country there can be when the government 601 00:46:46,519 --> 00:46:50,920 falls and there's a vacuum. Well, COVID was like there was a vacuum. 602 00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:55,719 We needed leadership. We needed leaders from opposite sides of the political spectrum 603 00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:01,159 to bury their differences, bury their animosity, we come together and work together, 604 00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:07,079 and we certainly didn't do that. And so I think, I mean 605 00:47:07,119 --> 00:47:14,159 COVID exposed our vulnerabilities, our risks, and I think it showed that basically 606 00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:16,559 we could have done better. We did well in some areas. Of course, 607 00:47:16,639 --> 00:47:22,960 we were the masters of invention and technology development, and we did a 608 00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:29,559 great job inventing a vaccine and then a great job of rolling out the vaccine 609 00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:37,559 and power to our inventive, amazing business sector. But our leaders and our 610 00:47:37,639 --> 00:47:43,199 communities showed what a lack of cohesion means when there is a challenge, a 611 00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:46,159 risk, and you look at the world today, you look at China, 612 00:47:46,519 --> 00:47:51,079 you look at Russia, you look at other threats to our freedom and our 613 00:47:51,079 --> 00:47:54,840 democracy, and we need to be cohesive. We need to come together internationally, 614 00:47:55,079 --> 00:47:59,800 but also for sure we should be making it a much higher priority to 615 00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:06,000 the developed to develop approaches to strengthen our communities because I mean one hundred and 616 00:48:06,079 --> 00:48:09,039 ten thousand Americans, one hundred and five hundred and ten thousand Americans are dying 617 00:48:09,079 --> 00:48:15,920 every year. Where's the national plan? The national willpower, the National Couesian 618 00:48:15,039 --> 00:48:20,480 to address our most vulnerable people who have a lack of connection in our communities. 619 00:48:22,639 --> 00:48:28,239 Seth Kaplan is the author of Fragile Neighborhoods, Repairing American Society one zip 620 00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:31,320 Code at a time. It is out on October seventeenth. Seth, thank 621 00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:36,599 you so much for joining Federalist Radio Hour today. Thank you for hosting me. 622 00:48:36,679 --> 00:48:39,239 Look forward to talking again. Absolutely, It's such an interesting book. 623 00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:43,679 Folks should go get it when they can. I'm em Elidrishinsky, culture editor 624 00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:46,119 here at the Federalist. We will be back soon with more. Until then, 625 00:48:46,320 --> 00:49:00,960 be lovers of freedom and anxious for the fray right. Goatran