WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.360 --> 00:00:06.519 Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do 2 00:00:06.639 --> 00:00:15.080 for your country. Mister Gerbatcheff, tear down this wall, read my lips. 3 00:00:18.640 --> 00:00:22.199 It's the Ricoshe Podcast with Stephen Hayward sitting in for Peter Robinson and Rob 4 00:00:22.239 --> 00:00:25.000 Long. I'm James Lileax. To day, we talked to Patrick Denin about 5 00:00:25.000 --> 00:00:29.320 regime change and Annie McCarthy about the indictments. So let stefrasels a podcast. 6 00:00:29.679 --> 00:00:37.240 Our country is going to hell and they come after Donald Trump, weaponizing the 7 00:00:37.439 --> 00:00:43.119 Justice Department, weaponizing the FBI. So I just want to tell you I'm 8 00:00:43.159 --> 00:00:48.640 an innocent man. I did nothing wrong. Either you were with us or 9 00:00:48.719 --> 00:00:52.799 you were with the terrorists. Welcome everybody. It's the Ricoche Podcast, number 10 00:00:52.799 --> 00:00:56.679 six hundred and forty five. I'm James Lileax in Minneapolis. Stephen Hayward is 11 00:00:56.679 --> 00:01:00.000 sitting in for what's his name again, Peter Robinson. He'll be back next 12 00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:04.519 week to remind us who he is. And Rob Long? Are you in 13 00:01:04.680 --> 00:01:10.000 New York? Your zoom feed seems I'm not clear. I expect that there's 14 00:01:10.040 --> 00:01:14.519 some sort of a post apocalyptic blade Runner orange myasthma that's going through every corner. 15 00:01:14.599 --> 00:01:15.879 Well, there is, but it's only on the ground. I'm in 16 00:01:15.920 --> 00:01:22.959 San Francisco, so it's not clear it's foggy. Um it's uh San Francisco 17 00:01:22.959 --> 00:01:26.159 where the air is clean, but the needles are dirty. Right, So 18 00:01:26.200 --> 00:01:30.680 are you walking around then, since you're an SF Frisco as they hate to 19 00:01:30.719 --> 00:01:34.200 be called, just to get you know, dodging around the street. Pooh 20 00:01:34.280 --> 00:01:37.159 and no, you know what I mean. I mean, I think there 21 00:01:37.159 --> 00:01:41.120 are. I actually feel like I just took a long walk yesterday, so 22 00:01:41.200 --> 00:01:46.760 I shouldn't. I won't even hear two days. But um, I actually 23 00:01:46.799 --> 00:01:49.439 feel like it's maybe just coming from New York and then having lived in Los 24 00:01:49.439 --> 00:01:55.719 Angeles for such a long time that Las seems much worse to me than San 25 00:01:55.719 --> 00:02:00.680 Francisco. Just anecdotally looking at my window and taking a walk to the Civic 26 00:02:00.680 --> 00:02:04.319 center where all the homeless people are, it didn't seem chimps didn't seem nearly 27 00:02:04.319 --> 00:02:07.319 as bad as sort of skid row in LA or Los Angeles Street in LA 28 00:02:07.400 --> 00:02:10.800 which has been terrible for years. I mean this pre dates covid or for 29 00:02:10.840 --> 00:02:15.639 that matter, Venice where I used to live in Venice, or the Ocean 30 00:02:15.639 --> 00:02:19.599 Front Walk. So Stephen, where where are you right now? I'm down 31 00:02:19.599 --> 00:02:23.280 in the central coast area of California, whereas I'd like to tell people, 32 00:02:23.319 --> 00:02:27.400 I have two hundred mile buffer zones between LA and San Francisco, so I 33 00:02:27.400 --> 00:02:30.479 stay away from the craziness. Oh but Rob, are you? I'm curious, 34 00:02:30.560 --> 00:02:31.840 Rob, are you by any chance? Probably not? But are you 35 00:02:31.879 --> 00:02:37.439 staying in either the Hilton or the Park fifty five? I should say both 36 00:02:37.439 --> 00:02:42.120 of those hotels have declared. I think they filed chapter or something. No, 37 00:02:42.360 --> 00:02:45.639 I'm not, but that was a big story. I was reading about 38 00:02:45.639 --> 00:02:49.719 it yesterday. It was a big story. What I love is the is 39 00:02:49.759 --> 00:02:55.039 the US are the people trying to make it the idea that two big hotels 40 00:02:55.319 --> 00:03:04.439 have essentially closed because there's no NUSS convention business and this john Ton is pretty 41 00:03:04.479 --> 00:03:07.280 empty. I got to say, um, I mean, anyway, the 42 00:03:07.319 --> 00:03:09.759 spate separate issue. But I'm not saying there. But I like the people 43 00:03:09.879 --> 00:03:13.599 sort of defending it, defending the city, saying things like, well, 44 00:03:13.639 --> 00:03:17.840 you know, I mean they're just filing chapter. It's really it's a corporate 45 00:03:17.919 --> 00:03:22.199 thing, Like well, no, when you close your business, it's not 46 00:03:22.520 --> 00:03:24.680 you know, it's not a corporate thing. It's a no business thing. 47 00:03:25.080 --> 00:03:28.680 And I would just say that I think, I mean, maybe I'm doing 48 00:03:28.680 --> 00:03:30.639 the deep diving right now, but um, I think actually think it's going 49 00:03:30.680 --> 00:03:37.120 to be Um, what what what killed San Francisco? And I think what 50 00:03:37.439 --> 00:03:38.360 or what it is trying to kill it? I don't think it's dead. 51 00:03:38.400 --> 00:03:44.719 I think there's it's just resting, resting. Um, it's going to be 52 00:03:44.840 --> 00:03:47.280 less. I think it's ultimately going to be when you actually add up the 53 00:03:47.400 --> 00:03:53.560 human damage and the economic damage, it's going to be either less or equal 54 00:03:54.240 --> 00:04:00.639 to the sort of woke nonsense that runs the cities. Um less equal to 55 00:04:00.879 --> 00:04:09.360 the ridiculous behavior of this state under COVID. COVID I think did more damage 56 00:04:09.400 --> 00:04:13.520 to certainly to the downtown la at downtown New York or San Francisco then, 57 00:04:13.759 --> 00:04:16.800 um, I mean people here have always been woke, but when you add 58 00:04:16.800 --> 00:04:24.759 woke on top of woke, you add you know, crazy panic, completely 59 00:04:24.839 --> 00:04:31.000 unscientific but bizarre kind of regulations. And they tore up the benches in the 60 00:04:31.399 --> 00:04:40.360 Union Square as a COVID precaution so that people wouldn't sit outside in a beautiful 61 00:04:40.399 --> 00:04:44.680 city square like you know, a lot of the stuff is I mean, 62 00:04:44.759 --> 00:04:46.639 some of it obviously is the crazy wokeness of San Francisco, which has always 63 00:04:46.680 --> 00:04:53.240 been crazy woke. But boy, you put in completely indefensible COVID policy and 64 00:04:53.519 --> 00:05:00.959 you just amplify that by one hundred rant over. Yeah, or apply that 65 00:05:00.439 --> 00:05:03.319 in every city that you want. You had the code of policies which emptied 66 00:05:03.360 --> 00:05:11.000 out the downtowns, destroy the economic ecosystems, and then you had a concombinant 67 00:05:11.399 --> 00:05:15.839 desire to be nice to all the people who are causing the civic disorder. 68 00:05:15.920 --> 00:05:17.480 Between the two of them, you have fewer eyes on the street. You 69 00:05:17.480 --> 00:05:20.439 have Jane Jacob's ideas about what makes a city safe and a Liverpool turned on 70 00:05:20.480 --> 00:05:25.519 their head. And then you have a waving away of any sort of consequences 71 00:05:25.560 --> 00:05:28.480 for people who apparently we're gonna be talking about this with our guest in a 72 00:05:28.519 --> 00:05:32.279 little bit, the people who bring the disorder to the streets. And every 73 00:05:32.319 --> 00:05:35.079 time, I mean, I'm keen to follow all the arguments and read it. 74 00:05:35.199 --> 00:05:40.120 For example, which has various subreddits devoted to Minneapolis and Saint Paul about 75 00:05:40.120 --> 00:05:43.160 the disorder on the public transports in downtown, and it's always the same, 76 00:05:43.199 --> 00:05:46.879 It's like, well, you can't do anything about civic order or disorder until 77 00:05:46.879 --> 00:05:51.399 you fix the problems that caused it in the first place. Well, no, 78 00:05:51.560 --> 00:05:58.839 that's absolutely not how it works at all, unless you believe, of 79 00:05:58.879 --> 00:06:01.079 course, that there are vast number of people who are walking out there who 80 00:06:01.079 --> 00:06:04.959 were struck by meth addiction, like by by you know, a thunderbolt, 81 00:06:05.000 --> 00:06:09.120 or that a needle flew from the sky and penetrated their neck and caused them 82 00:06:09.120 --> 00:06:12.600 to be addicted. And I know it's simplicitic to say that people have choice 83 00:06:12.600 --> 00:06:16.079 over it, but people kind of do. Maybe. So the idea that 84 00:06:16.120 --> 00:06:21.120 we have any consequences is, you know, we've failed as a society if 85 00:06:21.199 --> 00:06:25.680 we actually require consequences of the people who are causing the disorder. So, 86 00:06:25.759 --> 00:06:30.160 yeah, San Francisco, I hope it comes back. I'm not particular particularly 87 00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:33.279 hopeful. Yeah, well, I can do a pro and con on Rob's 88 00:06:33.319 --> 00:06:38.079 optimism. Let me do the con first, which is things are even worse 89 00:06:38.120 --> 00:06:42.639 than they look. And I'll just one measure is nationwide, I get these 90 00:06:42.639 --> 00:06:46.560 figures from Leohni and down at Hoover, nationwide, housing prices are down about 91 00:06:46.600 --> 00:06:49.120 three and a half percent. Mostly that's high interest rates and mornage rapes have 92 00:06:49.160 --> 00:06:54.560 gone up. In San Francisco. The so the sales price of houses have 93 00:06:54.680 --> 00:06:59.720 colned down seventeen percent. He calculates that the loss of property value for homeowners 94 00:06:59.720 --> 00:07:05.600 and Francisco is something like two hundred and sixty billion dollars and go one on 95 00:07:05.600 --> 00:07:09.519 that. I think, you know, Milton Friedman used to joke that if 96 00:07:09.560 --> 00:07:12.199 you put a socialist in charge of the Middle East, you'd have a shortage 97 00:07:12.199 --> 00:07:15.600 of sand And I think it's then underestimated the capacity of progressives direct cities like 98 00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:19.160 San Francisco. But that's the converse, right, isn't it. Rob Is 99 00:07:19.199 --> 00:07:24.639 that you know right now the exos from San Francisco is greater than any two 100 00:07:24.720 --> 00:07:29.519 year period Detroit ever experienced. But San Francisco's not Detroit. I remember asking, 101 00:07:29.519 --> 00:07:32.279 I think it was Arnt Laugher, who's always great with a sensible line, 102 00:07:32.439 --> 00:07:36.040 you know, how can California get away with this level of taxation and 103 00:07:36.160 --> 00:07:40.560 regulation? I mean, Arkansas couldn't do that. And he said, that's 104 00:07:40.759 --> 00:07:45.839 like asking why pretty girls are mean, because they can be so. California 105 00:07:45.879 --> 00:07:48.680 has these amenity values that people will pay a high freight charge to be here. 106 00:07:48.720 --> 00:07:51.680 I do, right, and you know you have for many years and 107 00:07:51.720 --> 00:07:54.879 so yeah, you gotta think sam'sis is going to come back. And then 108 00:07:54.920 --> 00:07:59.040 finally you mentioned that it looks not as bad as la. I think what's 109 00:07:59.040 --> 00:08:01.079 going on right now, I've picked this up by just my observations around the 110 00:08:01.079 --> 00:08:03.759 Bay or because I'm there a lot, either at Berkeley or over in San 111 00:08:03.800 --> 00:08:09.399 Francisco is I think the city and the police are quietly trying to get a 112 00:08:09.439 --> 00:08:11.839 handle on the homelessness and cut it back some. They're not eliminating it, 113 00:08:13.600 --> 00:08:16.959 and I think they're doing it quietly because if they actually disclosed that they were 114 00:08:16.959 --> 00:08:20.199 trying to crack down homelessness, trying at the margins to nibble it and contain 115 00:08:20.199 --> 00:08:24.079 it and roll it back, the progressive left would go nuts and make their 116 00:08:24.079 --> 00:08:26.800 lives miserable. So they're doing it quietly. I think you're right. I 117 00:08:26.839 --> 00:08:35.080 mean, my larger theory is that for two years we had these crazy crackpot 118 00:08:35.120 --> 00:08:41.159 regulations that in which people crack down on things like going to your grandmother's funeral 119 00:08:41.840 --> 00:08:48.960 and or going to church, or walking around or sitting outside in a public 120 00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:54.159 square, and so all the sort of normal law abiding people just now they're 121 00:08:54.159 --> 00:08:56.120 just home. Fine, you don't want me, I'm home. And they're 122 00:08:56.159 --> 00:09:01.480 sort of opening up other places. Right. The one area that was completely 123 00:09:01.559 --> 00:09:05.840 unregulated was in social disorder. And that social disorder, which is like, 124 00:09:05.919 --> 00:09:09.399 well, okay, well, you know, if you're you're not really going 125 00:09:09.440 --> 00:09:15.679 to grab a homeless person and give them a ticket for breaking COVID regulation. 126 00:09:16.360 --> 00:09:18.000 I mean, we didn't do that to any of the people who were protesting 127 00:09:18.559 --> 00:09:22.840 in the summer of twenty twenty. So that right there, when you talk 128 00:09:22.879 --> 00:09:28.279 about, you know, encouraging social disorder, when you the riots here in 129 00:09:28.399 --> 00:09:31.960 twenty twenty were quite extraordinary, and if you watch the live stream, you 130 00:09:31.000 --> 00:09:35.559 had an awful lot of people milling around in close contact, work out any 131 00:09:35.679 --> 00:09:39.240 maskt whatsoever. And if this had been, of course, the plague that 132 00:09:39.240 --> 00:09:41.240 we thought that it was, they would have done something about it. But 133 00:09:41.279 --> 00:09:45.200 they didn't. So right, so you have all of these strange, peculiar 134 00:09:45.240 --> 00:09:48.440 messages. But you know, yes, mean girl, pretty girls can be 135 00:09:48.440 --> 00:09:54.279 mean, because they can be, but eventually they age and cities, cities, 136 00:09:54.440 --> 00:10:00.639 the cities can micro awave the seed corn for a snack for a long 137 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:03.840 time, but they run out of it. And what haunts me about all 138 00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:11.000 of this is the idea that we really kind of fixed it before. We 139 00:10:11.080 --> 00:10:13.559 had it pretty good. When it came to cities, the renaissance in American 140 00:10:13.600 --> 00:10:20.240 cities in the odds and the teens was something to behold. They became destination 141 00:10:20.279 --> 00:10:22.399 places, they became safe place. I remember when I lived in DC. 142 00:10:22.639 --> 00:10:28.399 You didn't walk through downtown at night. You didn't. But then in the 143 00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:31.200 night, you know, in the late teens, I remember going to a 144 00:10:31.240 --> 00:10:33.879 whole bunch of conferences and walking back to my hotel at three o'clock in the 145 00:10:33.879 --> 00:10:37.519 morning and feeling absolutely safe. Now could have been because I, you know, 146 00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:43.080 drunk, but I think I don't think so. The cities had turned 147 00:10:43.120 --> 00:10:46.519 themselves around in extraordinary ways. Every time every one of these that you look 148 00:10:46.559 --> 00:10:50.440 at, you realize that all so much of that progress has been absolutely lost 149 00:10:50.559 --> 00:10:54.720 and squandered. And I don't know if it's because they think they can get 150 00:10:54.799 --> 00:11:00.320 right back to it again by snapping our fingers, or if they just don't 151 00:11:00.360 --> 00:11:05.200 care. Because the existence of disorder and the people who manifest these certain these 152 00:11:05.279 --> 00:11:09.200 social ills proves that the system that we have as ill legitimate needs to be 153 00:11:09.200 --> 00:11:13.320 completely dismantled and replaced with the utopian thing that'll fix all of these things. 154 00:11:13.320 --> 00:11:16.519 And until then, they're all very handy markers for the fact that capitalism failed 155 00:11:16.519 --> 00:11:20.600 and America has failed. In America's a failed project, dissenters, I'd seem 156 00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:26.679 crazy or not inter stunned into silence. Change. Yeah, I mean, 157 00:11:26.759 --> 00:11:31.240 I'm an old Reaganite optimist about you know, don't bet against America. That 158 00:11:31.240 --> 00:11:33.120 problem is Joe Biden is now saying don't bet against American And if he says 159 00:11:33.159 --> 00:11:37.120 that, I'm going to sell short right away the way things are going right. 160 00:11:37.960 --> 00:11:39.919 But I do think and this will come up with we get Patanina on 161 00:11:39.919 --> 00:11:43.200 a little bit. You know, there are great reserves. I mean, 162 00:11:43.240 --> 00:11:48.679 remember what Reagan's message was is essentially, you're going to fix America. The 163 00:11:48.679 --> 00:11:52.159 one difference between say a Reagan or that kind of conservative and a liberal is 164 00:11:52.519 --> 00:11:54.679 the liberals say we're going to fix it here in Washington. And remember Reagan's 165 00:11:54.720 --> 00:12:00.240 message from day one as president was You're going to fix it the American people. 166 00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:01.480 We're gonna help you, We're gonna get out of your way, We're 167 00:12:01.480 --> 00:12:05.639 gonna do things to help you, the people of America, fix what's wrong 168 00:12:05.639 --> 00:12:09.320 with the country. I still in my bones believe that is a winning message 169 00:12:09.360 --> 00:12:15.320 in a correct strategy. So how to how do the people of San Francisco 170 00:12:15.399 --> 00:12:18.759 then pull themselves out of this morass They seem they seem inclined to be voting 171 00:12:18.799 --> 00:12:24.440 for the very people who keep the quicksand well moist sand discus they don't. 172 00:12:24.519 --> 00:12:26.559 Well, there's a funny thing happening in San Francisco, in the whole Bay 173 00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:30.799 area the last few years that I never thought i'd see. This predates COVID, 174 00:12:30.840 --> 00:12:35.799 by the way. There is a organized yimb movement meaning yes in my 175 00:12:35.840 --> 00:12:39.919 backyard. And I'm listening to all these liberals who I used to battle about 176 00:12:39.919 --> 00:12:43.039 regulation thirty years ago, especially land use regulation, and they say, gosh, 177 00:12:43.080 --> 00:12:48.360 you know, our planning process and our building codes and our regulations make 178 00:12:48.399 --> 00:12:50.720 it hard to build housing. We've got to do something about this. Now 179 00:12:50.720 --> 00:12:56.360 they're often confused. Still, you know, it's I never thought i'd see 180 00:12:56.360 --> 00:13:01.399 such a thing happening, and so I don't I think there is a spot 181 00:13:01.519 --> 00:13:05.279 for a progressive in San Francisco to say I'm for all progressive things, but 182 00:13:05.320 --> 00:13:09.240 we really need to have simpler regulations so we can build the things we need 183 00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:11.320 at a reasonable cost. And there don't seem any of them. But there 184 00:13:11.320 --> 00:13:16.120 are activists agitating on this front. And that's also the data is now coming. 185 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:18.759 Not that they were persuaded by data, but the data. There is 186 00:13:18.879 --> 00:13:22.320 data that suggests that, i mean, part of the problem when you should 187 00:13:22.320 --> 00:13:24.080 build housing, and we goes, yeah, we should build housing, we 188 00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:26.039 should build affordable housing, and should be built by the government. And the 189 00:13:26.039 --> 00:13:30.200 truth is that you walk through pretty much any city, but then there's a 190 00:13:30.279 --> 00:13:33.039 there's a I can't really see it. But on the other side of where 191 00:13:33.080 --> 00:13:39.679 I am there was a neighborhood called the Fillmore that was incredibly vibrant neighborhood that 192 00:13:39.799 --> 00:13:45.519 was filled with people and the houses and it was a majority black and it 193 00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:52.039 had some kind of very famous um nightclubs and music venues for one time, 194 00:13:52.360 --> 00:13:54.559 and the city decided during the city Beautiful, not city beatiful, but during 195 00:13:54.600 --> 00:13:58.559 the sort of urban renewal movement, well we'll just tear all those down and 196 00:14:00.039 --> 00:14:01.879 that, you know, the Embarcadero in San Francisco had this beautiful sort of 197 00:14:01.879 --> 00:14:05.120 waterfront. It was, you know, gorgeous, and well, you're just 198 00:14:05.120 --> 00:14:07.360 gonna put a freeway there, and they did all this stuff. And these 199 00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:13.200 were all people who were acting under the best practices of the time because and 200 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:20.039 it doesn't really matter what your solution is, because their solution was, we 201 00:14:20.120 --> 00:14:24.360 need to plan this, we need central planning. This kind of chaotic neighbors 202 00:14:24.440 --> 00:14:28.360 kind of working it out thing doesn't doesn't work anymore in the you know, 203 00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:31.960 the modern twentieth century. And so what they did was they sort of tore 204 00:14:33.000 --> 00:14:37.320 away all of the little, tiny, little ligaments that hold all people together 205 00:14:37.399 --> 00:14:41.279 and neighborhoods together and cities together. Not that they were safe, not that 206 00:14:41.320 --> 00:14:46.000 there was no crime, not even that the cops weren't brutal, especially in 207 00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:50.879 San Francisco during the time, lots of issues, but this fundamental thing that 208 00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:54.039 makes people live together in a community, whether it's a big one and a 209 00:14:54.080 --> 00:14:58.080 dense one or a rural community, they just decided, well, we're smarter 210 00:14:58.159 --> 00:15:03.759 than that, and pretty much that's almost that's to me, it's almost always 211 00:15:03.840 --> 00:15:07.440 the problem. It's these things are never done by dumb people. They're always 212 00:15:07.480 --> 00:15:11.759 done by very very smart people, because only very smart people can be this 213 00:15:11.879 --> 00:15:16.480 stupid. Can offer you a mind blowing footnote to that story, Rob, 214 00:15:16.519 --> 00:15:20.799 which is you probably noticed that it was in the early sixties when neighborhoods in 215 00:15:20.799 --> 00:15:24.720 San Francisco effectively stopped an interstate from being run through the town stopped at cold 216 00:15:26.360 --> 00:15:31.080 And here's the mind blowing part. The ring leader of representing that particular point 217 00:15:31.120 --> 00:15:39.320 of view was a Republican state Assemblyman from San Francisco named Casper Weinberger. Well, 218 00:15:39.320 --> 00:15:43.720 now wait a minute, because if you're true, if you're under ninety 219 00:15:45.399 --> 00:15:50.799 the podcast, you're Casper Weinberger was in the rate, was a California politician, 220 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:56.120 was in the in the Reagan administration Secretary Defense, Casper Winberger, George 221 00:15:56.120 --> 00:15:58.720 Schultz, and Ronald Reagan. Well, working for Ronald Reagan following his lead, 222 00:16:00.679 --> 00:16:03.600 managed to do a lot of great stuff, including when the Cold War. 223 00:16:04.480 --> 00:16:07.240 No, Rob's right. The smart people are the ones that you have 224 00:16:07.240 --> 00:16:08.759 to walk on. We're look on for because they always have a new theory 225 00:16:08.799 --> 00:16:12.879 of urban design. The new urbanists are always absolutely correct about the the the 226 00:16:15.039 --> 00:16:19.000 paradigm they should impose on the city, and it never really works. Unfortunately, 227 00:16:19.039 --> 00:16:22.519 we can never get rid of the guys who think they're too smart and 228 00:16:22.600 --> 00:16:26.639 know precisely what to do. But there are some different tools in the quiver 229 00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:30.279 to mix my metaphors. We'll get to that maybe a little bit later. 230 00:16:30.279 --> 00:16:32.639 Because right now we should just get to our guest. We'd love to get 231 00:16:32.679 --> 00:16:36.960 to our guests. Who would be Patrick Demon professor of political science at Notre 232 00:16:37.039 --> 00:16:41.039 Dame, where he concentrates on the history of political thought, liberalism, conservatism, 233 00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:45.320 and constitutionalism, and twenty eighteen he wrote Why Liberalism Failed, and earlier 234 00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:49.799 this week he published his latest book, Regime Change Towards a Post Liberal Future. 235 00:16:51.679 --> 00:16:55.919 Patrick, thanks for joining us in the podcast today. Thanks well, 236 00:16:55.960 --> 00:17:03.000 I you know, I hate to sum up erroneously or thesis. And we 237 00:17:03.080 --> 00:17:07.599 have two failures. We have the failure of kin of the economic liberalism. 238 00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:11.920 We have the failure of social liberalism. What we need is to sweep away 239 00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:18.680 the order which is strangling us now and create a new regime. But before 240 00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:22.240 we get to that, there's a word that keeps popping up in your work 241 00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:29.000 that I read the piece and Impact, and the word is unbounded us that 242 00:17:29.240 --> 00:17:36.000 the central preski pardon compact, Compact magazine, Compact, I'm sorry, Compact 243 00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:38.960 Impact, right right, It's like, what are you? Yeah, commentary 244 00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:47.039 and descent emerging in form um. Unbounded was this word that appeared again and 245 00:17:47.119 --> 00:17:51.279 again and and I liked it. It has a sense of It reminded me 246 00:17:51.279 --> 00:17:53.799 of David glertn Are talking about the culture of obligation of the nineteen thirties. 247 00:17:53.799 --> 00:17:57.000 How were there were these boundaries and structures put into place that we're that we're 248 00:17:57.039 --> 00:18:02.519 done away with. Um, tell me a little bit more about why you 249 00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:07.039 like that word, and what sort of boundedness you think society would profit from 250 00:18:07.079 --> 00:18:10.799 having. Well, I guess, I mean, I was been trying to 251 00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:14.799 think of of an appropriate or fitting word to capture I think what you were 252 00:18:14.839 --> 00:18:19.359 just saying, which is the what I see as the sort of extreme forms 253 00:18:19.480 --> 00:18:26.000 of you could say unbounded liberty that I think has come to define aspects of 254 00:18:26.039 --> 00:18:32.359 what we think of as the contemporary right or the contemporary left. And what 255 00:18:32.480 --> 00:18:40.079 would be the correct term? And I thought about both borderlessness or limitlessness, 256 00:18:40.640 --> 00:18:44.440 could could in some ways describe them, But I thought of boundedness in part 257 00:18:44.519 --> 00:18:52.119 because it's it seems to both suggest the need for boundaries, of course, 258 00:18:52.680 --> 00:18:59.279 the need to draw boundaries around either places or people or behaviors that applied, 259 00:18:59.720 --> 00:19:03.000 it's seemed to me, could be thought of to apply to kind of both 260 00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:07.000 of the forms of liberalism that I see as the dominant strands on both the 261 00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:11.720 contemporary right and left, and that I think represent the kind of somebody's the 262 00:19:11.720 --> 00:19:18.079 furthest reaches of the development of this liberal border that we are now either enjoying 263 00:19:18.200 --> 00:19:21.680 or suffering under, depending on your perspective. Right, So, I mean, 264 00:19:21.720 --> 00:19:25.799 societally used to be like those invisible senses that my neighbors want for their 265 00:19:25.839 --> 00:19:30.400 dog sense, and the limits of what you where you would go and there 266 00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:33.880 would actually be a little jock in the collar if you walk through it. 267 00:19:33.480 --> 00:19:37.640 But I believe that Stephen Hayward has has some questions and I'm going to defer 268 00:19:37.640 --> 00:19:41.640 to Stephen. Well, Hi, Pad, it's it's great to see you 269 00:19:41.640 --> 00:19:45.359 again. It's been a long time. I did. I did promise listeners 270 00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:48.480 though, Pat, that we're both have a backwind and political theory. But 271 00:19:48.559 --> 00:19:52.000 we will not get off in an esoteric discussion of how to understand walk correctly. 272 00:19:52.279 --> 00:19:55.359 You and I can do that separately, and I'd actually like to do 273 00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:57.119 that with you. But but I do think we ought to be clear. 274 00:19:57.240 --> 00:20:00.599 I mean, we introduced one key point point of about unbounded liberalism, and 275 00:20:00.640 --> 00:20:03.720 I want to bore in on that. But I think we've got to there's 276 00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:07.880 clearway definitions for people. I think that's really are sort of three parts of 277 00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:11.519 what we mean by the liberal tradition. The first part is uncontroversial, I 278 00:20:11.519 --> 00:20:14.920 think, and you're understanding. The second part gets more interesting, and a 279 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:19.000 third part is where all the action is so so part one, when we 280 00:20:19.119 --> 00:20:25.880 say you and I say liberalism, we don't primarily mean the Democratic party platform 281 00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:27.720 of higher taxes and spending and regulation and all the rest of that. I 282 00:20:27.759 --> 00:20:30.839 mean lots of reasons to criticize that, but that's not you know, the 283 00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:36.319 contemporary way people understand liberal That's not really what you mean. I think that's 284 00:20:36.359 --> 00:20:38.960 you agree with that. Yeah. Well. Part two then is the institutional 285 00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:44.839 and constitutional aspects, and that has four parts plus an idea, and we've 286 00:20:44.839 --> 00:20:48.240 got to put in brackets and it's going to sound like a Supreme Court syllabus. 287 00:20:48.240 --> 00:20:51.319 They're two key asterisks here, but the four or five parts are. 288 00:20:51.799 --> 00:20:56.559 One is equality under the law, no special privileges, thready cast of people, 289 00:20:56.160 --> 00:21:00.920 a second representative government. The third is a market economy or often we 290 00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:04.519 say a free market economy. Oh, that's kind of redundant. And then 291 00:21:04.599 --> 00:21:08.400 fourth is the idea of robust individual rights. And that's where one of the 292 00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:12.920 ass risk comes in. Then the bracketed idea is the idea of progress, 293 00:21:14.119 --> 00:21:18.759 and you talk about that a lot in your book. So I mean, 294 00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:21.559 I think you're in fact, I know you're not saying we're going to throw 295 00:21:21.559 --> 00:21:25.519 out that whole tradition. We're not throwing out constitutionalism, representative government, even 296 00:21:25.519 --> 00:21:29.680 individual rights. You're after something bigger. Is that so far, so good? 297 00:21:29.720 --> 00:21:33.960 Patrick, I haven't. I think that's a correct Yeah, the institutional 298 00:21:33.960 --> 00:21:38.680 constitutional aspects, yes, right. And so this last part, I instead 299 00:21:38.720 --> 00:21:41.440 of saying unbounded, I say the idea. I think you use this phrase 300 00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:48.079 alternately yourself, the idea of unlimited individual autonomy. It's the John Stuart Mill 301 00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:52.599 idea that liberalism means we all get to pursue our own self chosen purposes. 302 00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:56.640 But the problem is is that it does not fill the whole in our soul 303 00:21:56.799 --> 00:22:00.799 when we're detached from communities and families and religion so forth. Or you know, 304 00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:04.559 I know you're familiar with the line from Leo Strauss that the end result 305 00:22:04.559 --> 00:22:10.160 of Lockey and liberalism would be the joyless quest for joy. And so now 306 00:22:10.200 --> 00:22:12.200 we live at a time and here's the problem. What bounds anything? Well, 307 00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:18.720 nature does right and so just because you say a man doesn't become a 308 00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:22.960 woman by saying that I'm a woman, right, Just like you remember Lincoln's 309 00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:26.839 famous line, if you call a tailor leg, how many legs does a 310 00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:30.599 dog have? And the answer was for because calling a tailor leg doesn't make 311 00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:34.559 it a leg. Well, today we have the Biden administration refusing to use 312 00:22:34.599 --> 00:22:38.920 the word woman in official policy documents, and this is crazy. Right, 313 00:22:38.960 --> 00:22:42.759 So this is some of the stuff that you're after, And so let me 314 00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:45.640 stop there. That was a long opening speech, but say a little more 315 00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:49.240 about because I hear I'm in very strong agreement with you. While I may 316 00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:52.839 have some reservations about other aspects of your argument, but I'm very strongly agreement 317 00:22:52.839 --> 00:22:59.599 with you about that core point of individual moral autonomy is become a moral disaster 318 00:22:59.720 --> 00:23:03.240 for Western civilization. Yeah, yeah, well, so that was really the 319 00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:07.240 Obviously, this is a continuation of the argument that I made in my last 320 00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:11.720 book, Why Liberalism Failed. The liberalism fails because it succeeds. That's the 321 00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:18.200 short summary of that of the argument of that book. It's not that we 322 00:23:18.200 --> 00:23:22.359 don't have enough liberalism or that the cures of liberalism is more liberalism to play 323 00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:27.759 on John Dewey's old phrase about democracy, but in fact by becoming fully itself 324 00:23:27.799 --> 00:23:32.519 and some ways by overcoming in part what Toville, of course, I've described 325 00:23:32.519 --> 00:23:37.240 as in some ways the kind of inherited boundaries, right that that America had 326 00:23:37.359 --> 00:23:40.839 inherited from its book, from the old world, and also from practice as 327 00:23:40.880 --> 00:23:44.839 it was able to develop. It was able in some ways to constrain the 328 00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:51.000 tendencies of liberal democracy what he calls democracy, But I think what he means 329 00:23:51.079 --> 00:23:56.319 is fundamentally liberal democracy to kind of spin out of control and really move in 330 00:23:56.319 --> 00:24:00.400 a direction in which the individual was detached, unattached, came believing in their 331 00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:06.839 unbounded perfectibility, limitlessness, the restlessness of the human soul. And so once 332 00:24:07.039 --> 00:24:10.200 you know, in somebodys Tokeville writes this book and says, don't do this, 333 00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:15.640 don't go down this path. Try to retain those elements that you've inherited 334 00:24:15.720 --> 00:24:22.400 or that you've kind of developed that limit this temptation of developing this bounded understanding 335 00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:26.200 of individual autonomy. And my book, that book, and I guess this 336 00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:29.319 current book is kind of an effort to say, well, what happens when 337 00:24:29.359 --> 00:24:33.000 Tokeville's warnings you know when we've we've neglected them, or we simply said, 338 00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:36.519 well, too bad for that, and what do we do then? And 339 00:24:36.559 --> 00:24:40.119 I think, look, I mean, this has been a project that we've 340 00:24:40.160 --> 00:24:41.720 all been engaged in, you know, for forty or fifty years, those 341 00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:45.759 of us who call ourselves conservatives, we've all been concerned about this. And 342 00:24:45.799 --> 00:24:52.240 I suppose maybe what makes me something of a heterodox thinker is that I think 343 00:24:52.319 --> 00:24:56.319 that in some senses, both sides of the liberal tradition have gotten the answer 344 00:24:56.400 --> 00:25:00.079 wrong. And by by by liberal tradition, I mean both the classical liberal 345 00:25:00.160 --> 00:25:07.240 as well as progressive liberal aspects of this tradition. So yes, I think 346 00:25:07.240 --> 00:25:11.039 we bring out points one and three, and maybe that the sticking points. 347 00:25:10.920 --> 00:25:15.680 It's this point two. Yeah, yeah, well you have I just we 348 00:25:15.720 --> 00:25:17.319 could go on a long time on this, and I don't want to. 349 00:25:17.359 --> 00:25:22.759 But you have a very provocative phrase where you say we should use Machiavellian means 350 00:25:22.759 --> 00:25:26.400 to Aristotelian ends. Now two points on that one is I totally understand what 351 00:25:26.440 --> 00:25:30.240 you mean and agree with it. I'm on team Nick of the people who 352 00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:33.000 say we've get them all wrong because we only read the Prince. But it 353 00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:34.839 does remind me a little bit. And here's where the trouble starts. Of 354 00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:38.640 Herbert Crowley's famous phrase and progressive error. You remember he said we're going to 355 00:25:38.759 --> 00:25:45.240 use Hamiltonian means for Jeffersonian ends. Were you self consciously paralleling that with that 356 00:25:45.279 --> 00:25:48.680 phrase, Pat or yeah, sure, sure, I mean I teach Crowley 357 00:25:48.759 --> 00:25:52.759 regularly, and I was using it in part because I think it's it's such 358 00:25:52.799 --> 00:25:57.519 a it's a powerful way to phrase or two things that in the American tradition 359 00:25:57.559 --> 00:26:00.680 we've understood to the opposite. Right, in the American tradition, you were 360 00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:04.079 either on team Jefferson for a long time, you're on Jeam Jefferson, or 361 00:26:04.119 --> 00:26:10.119 you were on team Hamilton at least until relatively and so but and you know 362 00:26:10.200 --> 00:26:12.839 this, Steve, in the those for those who study political philosophy, we 363 00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:17.440 do kind of divide ourselves, you know, with their different camps. But 364 00:26:17.480 --> 00:26:21.079 one of the big divisions is are you on team Aristotle or are you on 365 00:26:21.160 --> 00:26:23.400 team mafia Velli? Are you a modern or are you on ancient? And 366 00:26:23.759 --> 00:26:26.599 I thought it was you know, it was worth sort of trying to make 367 00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:32.079 a play on Crowley, but also to Um suggests that maybe these two could 368 00:26:32.079 --> 00:26:34.759 be um and somebody's brought a little more closely together. Well, in that 369 00:26:34.839 --> 00:26:38.000 case, I'll just call you crowlier than thou and leave it there a moment. 370 00:26:41.799 --> 00:26:45.599 I think you are bounded, Steve. Yeah, well one more, 371 00:26:45.720 --> 00:26:48.279 one more quick set of questions, and then Rob has a couple for you. 372 00:26:48.119 --> 00:26:51.480 I was delighted to see. I mean, you're a theorist, and 373 00:26:51.960 --> 00:26:53.759 often theorist to stick with theory. You at the end of the book have 374 00:26:53.880 --> 00:26:57.640 several suggestions, including a couple of radical ones that I have made in speeches, 375 00:26:57.680 --> 00:27:02.079 I haven't written them down. And then I want to suggest one to 376 00:27:02.079 --> 00:27:06.160 you that you haven't had but fits with your theme. YEA for the paper 377 00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:10.559 back right, Well, universal service. I think if you want to actually 378 00:27:10.559 --> 00:27:12.119 have the classes, A mixed the idea of universal service. And by the 379 00:27:12.119 --> 00:27:15.119 way, you pretty much say what I say, which is including at least 380 00:27:15.160 --> 00:27:19.079 six weeks of training and how you shoot a gun like Israel does. Right. 381 00:27:19.759 --> 00:27:25.000 Pro family policy, I go one step further than you, and I 382 00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:29.319 floated the idea that I do have several specific examples, but one I have 383 00:27:29.519 --> 00:27:33.960 is how about we exempt two parent families to have more than three children from 384 00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:37.920 all income taxes? And then watch people's heads explode. I have a lot 385 00:27:37.960 --> 00:27:41.960 to say about meritocracy. I'll skip over that for a minute. But then 386 00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:47.400 you talk about how we need to reinvigorate our public Christian culture, and I 387 00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:52.839 have one specific idea for you. Almost nobody and no Red states had to 388 00:27:52.839 --> 00:27:56.079 wit to propose this, but I think forty eight of the fifty state constitutions 389 00:27:56.279 --> 00:28:00.039 have an acknowledgement of God or the Almighty as the source of our rights. 390 00:28:00.039 --> 00:28:04.279 So you live in Indiana, Indiana's constitution begins, we the people of the 391 00:28:04.319 --> 00:28:08.359 State of Indiana, grateful to Almighty God for the free exercise of the right 392 00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:12.319 to choose our own form of government, do or day this constitution. My 393 00:28:12.440 --> 00:28:17.759 proposal is school prayer. Of course, while Reagan's the last president to talk 394 00:28:17.799 --> 00:28:21.440 about how we really shouldn't have got rid of school prayer, how about we 395 00:28:21.519 --> 00:28:25.119 just passed laws saying that the school children in our public schools shall recite the 396 00:28:25.200 --> 00:28:29.039 preamble of the state Constitution every morning at the beginning of the school day. 397 00:28:29.599 --> 00:28:33.599 And watch leftist heads explode, and dare the federal course to say the state 398 00:28:33.640 --> 00:28:37.200 constitution is unconstitutional? Constitutional? Yeah, yeah, that's excellent, that's excellency. 399 00:28:37.480 --> 00:28:42.640 I've long actually I've taught many classes in which I do point out not 400 00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:48.960 only do many state constitutions have a positive acknowledgement of God, some state constitutions, 401 00:28:49.000 --> 00:28:55.640 including the state of Massachusetts, have beginning their preamble by saying, by 402 00:28:55.759 --> 00:29:00.880 enjoining a positive duty to recognize and worship God. So imagine the heads exploding 403 00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:06.319 in Boston and the areas of New England when they suddenly discovered that their own 404 00:29:06.319 --> 00:29:08.599 constitutions have these have these pastors. Of course, my fear would be that 405 00:29:08.920 --> 00:29:15.160 places like Massachusetts, which would quickly introduce constitutional amendments of racing and scrubbing those 406 00:29:15.279 --> 00:29:18.359 passages. It's it's the would be the version of tearing down the statue. 407 00:29:18.440 --> 00:29:23.160 So one has to be one has to be careful what one wishes for. 408 00:29:23.640 --> 00:29:27.799 Well, yes, I'm a million sorry, No, I think at the 409 00:29:27.880 --> 00:29:33.559 very least you could have you could pass this in red states where for example, 410 00:29:33.559 --> 00:29:37.920 in Indiana, where this would be where this would naturally lead to the 411 00:29:37.960 --> 00:29:42.720 recognition a public acknowledgement of a creator. But you know, I would actually 412 00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:45.759 like to see, you know, push the envelope even further. I would 413 00:29:45.799 --> 00:29:49.480 like to see, let's test some of these older cases. Let's test some 414 00:29:49.519 --> 00:29:53.359 of these cases about prayer in school. Let's see where the Supreme Court is 415 00:29:53.440 --> 00:29:56.240 now on these questions. Obviously, we have a different court than we did 416 00:29:56.240 --> 00:30:00.720 in the nineteen sixties and seventies. And I think, sadly, you know, 417 00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:04.440 it's interesting you mentioned Ronald rig and it seems to me that the Republican 418 00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:11.039 Party or Conservatives in America have kind of they've they've abandoned certain stances and the 419 00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:15.960 belief those are lost causes or those are effectively lost causes. So now we'll 420 00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:18.440 move from prayer in school and we'll just defend religious liberty. We'll take a 421 00:30:18.519 --> 00:30:22.000 much more defensive stance. And I actually think this might be a moment for 422 00:30:22.200 --> 00:30:26.599 really for people to begin to think about a much more you know, a 423 00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:30.880 stance which actually tries to regain some ground um and maybe if it doesn't work, 424 00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:33.559 to begin to say, well, maybe we need to think about jurisprudence 425 00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:37.119 that would allow these cases to win. Well, I've got a bunch more 426 00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:41.119 questions and some objections, path, but I want to foot a rob promantic 427 00:30:41.160 --> 00:30:42.279 who wants to get them on the fire. Expect, I expect you'll have 428 00:30:42.319 --> 00:30:47.759 objections. Yeah, Yeah, he's you know, that's his that's his sticked 429 00:30:47.920 --> 00:30:49.839 objections. Thanks for joining us. I'm good to see you again. I 430 00:30:49.880 --> 00:30:53.039 think I think I saw you last in the summer or last summer in um 431 00:30:53.359 --> 00:30:59.640 in Hungary of all places. Um right, right? Uh so, I 432 00:30:59.640 --> 00:31:03.960 have you talk about lost causes some of these issues, you know, and 433 00:31:03.000 --> 00:31:07.000 lost causes and the social conservatives who are advocating for them in the eighties and 434 00:31:07.279 --> 00:31:12.559 baking Er kind of gave up. Um it was stipulated. They're at least 435 00:31:14.079 --> 00:31:19.519 presently lost causes right there. They have lost till now, Um who lost 436 00:31:19.559 --> 00:31:22.960 them? I mean, there's there's a kind of a I've going to reveal 437 00:31:23.000 --> 00:31:26.599 my theory that this sort of a kind of a vanity on the part of 438 00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:33.119 the right to say that we lost them because these evil, faceless bureaucrats infiltrated 439 00:31:33.839 --> 00:31:37.920 um state governments, local governments and federal government where you know, they really 440 00:31:37.160 --> 00:31:45.519 didn't declare their their biases, and they've undermined traditional sort of American Americanism left 441 00:31:45.559 --> 00:31:48.839 and right. That and and what I mean is, whenever you lose something, 442 00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:53.079 you always ask yourself one question, did I lose it? Or was 443 00:31:53.119 --> 00:31:56.759 it stolen? And you always want it to be stolen by bureaucrats or something, 444 00:31:56.759 --> 00:32:02.880 because it means there's not your it's not your fault who lost this stuff? 445 00:32:04.359 --> 00:32:08.279 Did? Was it just the inattentiveness by the right or was it a 446 00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:17.640 kind of a larger American cultural decline brought upon by wealth and good news? 447 00:32:17.720 --> 00:32:22.799 Maybe? So who's gonna so when your book is really called regime change? 448 00:32:22.920 --> 00:32:28.160 Like what regime do we need to change? The regime in the state houses 449 00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:32.400 or the city halls, or the Congress, or the regime culturally that we 450 00:32:32.480 --> 00:32:37.839 have sort of slipped into. I mean, who's the book for? Well, 451 00:32:37.960 --> 00:32:40.519 I don't you know, you never know who the who a book is 452 00:32:40.559 --> 00:32:44.079 for. But the book, the book, I hope, is for people 453 00:32:44.880 --> 00:32:46.799 who are you know, like me, and I assume like you, fairly 454 00:32:46.960 --> 00:32:52.200 unhappy about the situation we find ourselves in right now, thinking that the nation, 455 00:32:52.400 --> 00:32:54.839 maybe the broader Western worlds, and it is in a state of what 456 00:32:54.960 --> 00:33:00.519 appears to be terminal decline, in which efforts to fight back again. This 457 00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:04.000 always seemed to be kind of you know, at the same at the same 458 00:33:04.039 --> 00:33:07.880 time, there's still fighting spirit. You're always you're always fighting, you know, 459 00:33:07.880 --> 00:33:12.200 you're always fallen back to the to the further defensive point, and it 460 00:33:12.200 --> 00:33:15.279 almost feels like we're at the you know, we're at the keep right now, 461 00:33:15.400 --> 00:33:19.119 and and how much further can you retreat? Right when? Uh? 462 00:33:19.160 --> 00:33:22.000 When when we can't define a man and a woman? When we can't uh 463 00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:24.759 uh you know, when when when to be a Christian is now in this 464 00:33:24.880 --> 00:33:30.240 country? Is is a reviled uh you know, um form of identity? 465 00:33:30.799 --> 00:33:35.680 If to use the current parliance, that feels pretty much like we're at the 466 00:33:35.759 --> 00:33:37.599 keep. And well, well, let let me ask you this as a 467 00:33:37.640 --> 00:33:43.759 practical question of um years and years and years, the uh, the pro 468 00:33:43.839 --> 00:33:46.279 life movement has said has been, as their strategy has been, we need 469 00:33:46.319 --> 00:33:51.000 to change the makeup of the Supreme Court. We have conservative justices to overturn 470 00:33:51.119 --> 00:33:59.400 row rows overturned. And it turns out that the pro life political operation hasn't 471 00:33:59.400 --> 00:34:02.599 been that successful anywhere, even in places where you think it would be. 472 00:34:04.400 --> 00:34:07.119 So was the problem, I don't know, it's not probably either or was 473 00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:12.800 the problem Supreme Court? It was the problem that the movement itself had failed 474 00:34:12.800 --> 00:34:17.719 at persuading the voters. Yeah, So I think this gets us to the 475 00:34:17.760 --> 00:34:21.880 broader question that you asked, which is sort of how did these causes get 476 00:34:21.920 --> 00:34:29.440 lost? And obviously I'm far from being able to have a comprehensive answer to 477 00:34:29.559 --> 00:34:32.760 this question that I think none of us is able to adequately answer in its 478 00:34:32.760 --> 00:34:36.840 complexity. But one thing I would say is so in the first instance, 479 00:34:36.840 --> 00:34:42.800 I think we can all look at the unstinting, unrelenting efforts by progressives to 480 00:34:42.960 --> 00:34:47.599 change and transform the fundamental institutions of the United States and frankly the globe, 481 00:34:49.000 --> 00:34:53.480 and using the power of the United States to advance its vision. It's very 482 00:34:53.519 --> 00:34:58.719 positive vision, not you know, in the eighties, I remember I was 483 00:34:58.719 --> 00:35:00.960 a part of Steve I think I got to know you around that time, 484 00:35:01.039 --> 00:35:05.000 you know, Alan Bloom and closing the American mind. And the problem on 485 00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:07.519 the left was relativism. The progressives were simply relativists. And now, in 486 00:35:07.559 --> 00:35:13.800 retrospect, that seems like a kind of charming argument, because all along this 487 00:35:13.840 --> 00:35:16.880 wasn't The problem wasn't relativism, It wasn't the lack of a belief in anything. 488 00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:23.119 It was a very strong and firm belief about what the vision of the 489 00:35:23.159 --> 00:35:27.760 world should be like. And it's it's increasingly it seems to be the one 490 00:35:28.280 --> 00:35:35.400 that we encounter in the world, you know, they a world in which, 491 00:35:35.440 --> 00:35:39.519 again it's now crime thing to say that there's biological difference between a man 492 00:35:39.559 --> 00:35:44.280 and a woman. So I think I would I think we'd be in strong 493 00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:49.800 agreement that the left plays a really powerful and profound role in this transformation, 494 00:35:50.360 --> 00:35:52.559 and maybe we might differ a little bit in terms of the role of the 495 00:35:52.679 --> 00:35:55.599 right. And I think you know, what you suggested in your question, 496 00:35:55.679 --> 00:35:59.320 was it inattentiveness on the part of the right, And I think it was 497 00:35:59.800 --> 00:36:04.679 more a problem in the way in which the right kind of constituted itself as 498 00:36:04.679 --> 00:36:07.920 a response to the left, going back to the nineteen eighties, even earlier 499 00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:12.519 than that, when it began to articulate itself as a form of opposition to 500 00:36:12.639 --> 00:36:16.480 this incipient movement that we've seen come into full flower today, and it was 501 00:36:16.559 --> 00:36:22.599 to say that the problem lie in the kind of exercise of political power. 502 00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:29.360 The exercise of political power, state power was the problem. So these bureaucrats, 503 00:36:29.400 --> 00:36:34.960 these and trench figures in government, the use of political power was the 504 00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:37.079 problem. And if we could in some ways create a world in which that 505 00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:42.199 no longer applied, which there was an absence of political power, we would 506 00:36:42.199 --> 00:36:45.039 see the kind of flourishing of a good society emerge. So it's a kind 507 00:36:45.039 --> 00:36:52.599 of in the background life theories of spontaneous order, that in the absence of 508 00:36:52.599 --> 00:36:57.079 any kind of public authority, the goodness, the kind of inherent goodness of 509 00:36:57.159 --> 00:37:00.639 human beings would emerge, and those of Steve Knows as better than anyone. 510 00:37:00.679 --> 00:37:05.440 But you know, Robald Reagan had some some qualities of this. He would 511 00:37:05.480 --> 00:37:08.800 often say his favorite political philosopher wasn't Edmund Burke, it was Thomas Payne, 512 00:37:09.039 --> 00:37:14.079 and Thomas paineo famously argues that, you know, the government only exists to 513 00:37:14.159 --> 00:37:17.480 restrain the evils of human beings. But as an Aristotelian, myself, as 514 00:37:17.480 --> 00:37:22.280 an Aristintilian, I also understand, or at least I believe that government also 515 00:37:22.320 --> 00:37:25.960 exists. We could say, the public order exists to cultivate the potential virtues 516 00:37:27.000 --> 00:37:30.320 of human beings that, left to our own devices, were not naturally good. 517 00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:35.000 We have the capacity for good, but we need those capacities to be 518 00:37:35.079 --> 00:37:37.320 developed. So I think that that you have on the one side, the 519 00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:43.639 left willing to use more or less unbridled exercise of political power to pursue its 520 00:37:43.760 --> 00:37:47.079 ends, and the right saying what we really need is just to have the 521 00:37:47.199 --> 00:37:52.960 disassembling of the political order of government use of government power. And so there 522 00:37:53.039 --> 00:37:59.079 was always asymmetric kind of an asymmetric kind of warfare that was going on that 523 00:37:59.199 --> 00:38:02.360 I think. I think these are the people who might be interested in reading 524 00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:05.280 my book, or the people who are saying, well, how do we 525 00:38:05.519 --> 00:38:07.800 how do we actually begin to fight back? And do we actually we need 526 00:38:07.880 --> 00:38:13.039 to rethink what we thought in the nineteen eighties, going back even to the 527 00:38:13.039 --> 00:38:16.400 sixteen seventies and development of conservatism, that what seemed to be the answer then 528 00:38:17.320 --> 00:38:22.280 may not be the correct answer, certain from the standpoint today. And that's 529 00:38:22.280 --> 00:38:24.320 where I think there is a really, of course, it's a it's a 530 00:38:24.360 --> 00:38:32.639 pretty sometimes let's say, unpleasant, sometimes civil, sometimes productive debate taking place 531 00:38:32.679 --> 00:38:37.079 within the right today over these questions. I just jump in with one last 532 00:38:37.119 --> 00:38:44.039 item, just the placeholder. Really, I love this argument. I will 533 00:38:44.079 --> 00:38:45.880 say that I'm not quite ready to give up on liberalism or progress, but 534 00:38:45.960 --> 00:38:50.960 let's delay that to another day. But it does promptly nostalgic memory. I 535 00:38:51.079 --> 00:38:54.000 had forgotten until I was catching up with all this, that I lost a 536 00:38:54.039 --> 00:38:58.599 bet to you about fifteen years ago I don't know if you remember this. 537 00:38:59.000 --> 00:39:01.400 I do. I still up you paid me with Yeah, they'll see. 538 00:39:01.400 --> 00:39:05.760 That's just it is that you were I was actually right, accept in a 539 00:39:05.840 --> 00:39:09.280 larger sense of your point is better. The bet listeners was Pat had written 540 00:39:09.400 --> 00:39:15.880 some sympathetic comments about the peak oil theory, very popular back around two thousand 541 00:39:15.920 --> 00:39:17.239 and five, and I said, Pat, that's all wrong. I'll bet 542 00:39:17.280 --> 00:39:21.599 you that three years from now oil prices will be back down to seventy five 543 00:39:21.639 --> 00:39:23.559 dollars a barrel. Pat Gamley took the bet. It was a rerun, 544 00:39:23.599 --> 00:39:28.360 by the way, the famous Julian Simon Paul early bet. And three years 545 00:39:28.440 --> 00:39:30.679 came along right, and uh and by the way, you know all the 546 00:39:30.719 --> 00:39:34.679 people the Goldman sacks and oil was heading to two hundred dollars a barrel. 547 00:39:34.719 --> 00:39:37.880 I me, there's lots of people experts on your side. And three years 548 00:39:37.960 --> 00:39:39.760 rolling around and oil prices were still high. And so yeah, are the 549 00:39:39.880 --> 00:39:44.599 terms of our bet. You can tell where academic nerds was there? The 550 00:39:44.719 --> 00:39:47.679 two parts, Pat, It was a two books from Liberty five book catalog 551 00:39:47.920 --> 00:39:51.239 and I think dinner, which I don't think I ever paid off. So 552 00:39:51.280 --> 00:39:53.320 that office, I'll told you to that Steve. Yeah, you should. 553 00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:57.760 But and of course it wears oil today about seventy dollars a barrel, so 554 00:39:57.800 --> 00:40:00.800 adjusted for inflation, I was totally right, But that's a different art. 555 00:40:00.880 --> 00:40:05.239 Your your argument was beyond that, which was never mind oil and resources. 556 00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:08.760 It's uh material progress is not filling the whole in our soul. That's the 557 00:40:08.840 --> 00:40:14.079 large argument you're making. That's the one I'm most enthusiastic about, even if, 558 00:40:14.400 --> 00:40:16.079 as I say, my cavit is I don't think we should entirely give 559 00:40:16.159 --> 00:40:24.800 up on liberalism and progress just yet. Right. Well, so, well 560 00:40:24.840 --> 00:40:29.079 now it's it's you know, it's there was just an article that appeared in 561 00:40:29.119 --> 00:40:35.719 Politico yesterday about my my majestic powers of influencing all things in American politics today. 562 00:40:35.760 --> 00:40:37.760 I was I was reading and wandering, who is this? Who is 563 00:40:37.760 --> 00:40:39.880 this wizard of our right here? Who who's who's operating? You know? 564 00:40:39.960 --> 00:40:45.360 If only but um, but it did it did Actually, you know, 565 00:40:45.400 --> 00:40:49.880 the reporter admirably uh you know, went went into my uh went into some 566 00:40:49.920 --> 00:40:55.039 of my older publications and revived, um revisited and talked a little bit about 567 00:40:55.039 --> 00:40:59.440 some of those arguments that I was making. I you know, it brings 568 00:40:59.480 --> 00:41:02.719 me back to something that you had said earlier, and this was really I 569 00:41:02.760 --> 00:41:09.679 think the thing about peak oil that really most interested in me was within the 570 00:41:09.719 --> 00:41:19.960 liberal order, did liberalism have the capacity in somebody's to recognize natural limits? 571 00:41:20.920 --> 00:41:25.880 So you said earlier, what what can bind or limit the autonomy the desired 572 00:41:25.920 --> 00:41:30.719 autonomy of the individual, and you suggested that those limits would be nature. 573 00:41:30.199 --> 00:41:36.000 And I think, on the one hand, the right has always been very 574 00:41:36.039 --> 00:41:38.559 attentive to the ways in which nature, of course is a limit, especially 575 00:41:38.559 --> 00:41:44.159 when we think about the human being, what we are as human beings. 576 00:41:44.239 --> 00:41:46.760 I mean, we both cut our teeth in political philosophy. And what attracted 577 00:41:46.760 --> 00:41:51.039 me to political philosophy, I'm sure what attracted you. It's it's really just 578 00:41:51.079 --> 00:41:53.280 an endless discussion about what is human nature? And once we have the answer 579 00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:57.199 to that question, then we give begin to think about what is the appropriate 580 00:41:57.239 --> 00:42:01.679 political form that follows from that definition of human nature. But so on the 581 00:42:01.719 --> 00:42:07.320 one hand, conservatives conservatives have always been very keen critics of the way in 582 00:42:07.360 --> 00:42:15.880 which the left has been has argued for the transcendence of natural limits, and 583 00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:20.119 in particular the transcendence of natural limits in what it is a human beings. 584 00:42:20.280 --> 00:42:23.639 And this of course brings us back to old kind of Strausian themes of historicism, 585 00:42:23.679 --> 00:42:28.239 that the human beings has no nature. We are really just creatures who 586 00:42:28.239 --> 00:42:32.800 are defined by historical sort of circumstances. And the circumstance above all that defines 587 00:42:32.880 --> 00:42:37.559 us is the idea of progress. That they're called progressives for subercise, because 588 00:42:38.199 --> 00:42:44.559 progress isn't just you know, just a change, like you know, a 589 00:42:45.119 --> 00:42:50.480 using a ballpoint pen instead of a feather. Progress is this sort of existential 590 00:42:50.480 --> 00:42:52.360 ontological condition of what it is to be a human being. There is no 591 00:42:52.440 --> 00:42:59.880 human nature. There's only a changeable, transformative, constantly altering, an ultimate 592 00:43:00.239 --> 00:43:05.400 perfecting, a kind of perfectable creature that is a human being. At the 593 00:43:05.440 --> 00:43:07.880 same time, though, the right, it seems to me, has similar 594 00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:12.239 tendencies as well, at least as it's been constituted in the United States, 595 00:43:12.519 --> 00:43:17.199 which is the belief of a kind of endless economic progress, a limitless economic 596 00:43:17.280 --> 00:43:22.000 progress. And what was really interesting to I guess what interested me about these 597 00:43:22.079 --> 00:43:25.559 ideas of peak oil, which I think is still in some sense it is 598 00:43:25.559 --> 00:43:30.079 true, right we're going to run out of maybe not, I shouldn't say 599 00:43:30.159 --> 00:43:35.199 run out of it. Become the easy, easy energy in the form of 600 00:43:35.199 --> 00:43:39.039 oil gets more difficult. That's kind of what interested to me. And the 601 00:43:39.079 --> 00:43:44.639 extent to which, and again these are just questions in my mind, the 602 00:43:44.719 --> 00:43:47.559 extent to which what we understand to be the success of liberalism has been tied 603 00:43:49.039 --> 00:43:54.679 to a kind of perhaps temporary bounty, a bountious energy form that allowed us 604 00:43:54.719 --> 00:43:59.840 the belief in this kind of autonomy, in this kind of this condition of 605 00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:02.239 completed, thorough going autonomy. So, in other words, the question that 606 00:44:02.320 --> 00:44:07.199 really interested me out of that period was is there a quality on the right 607 00:44:07.239 --> 00:44:12.400 that actually begins to collapse itself with some of the assumptions on the left as 608 00:44:12.400 --> 00:44:16.679 well, which is that the economic and material form of our life is as 609 00:44:16.719 --> 00:44:22.000 a limitless and subject to progress as the belief in human transformation. And it 610 00:44:22.000 --> 00:44:24.199 seems to me just put a finer point in this. So I know you 611 00:44:24.239 --> 00:44:28.519 want to talk about other things, but this is of course really important that 612 00:44:28.760 --> 00:44:31.320 what used to seem to be a distinctive approach to progress on the left and 613 00:44:31.320 --> 00:44:37.280 a distinctive approach to progress on the right has now really collapsed, because what 614 00:44:37.320 --> 00:44:44.079 we are actually seeing now isn't just a kind of theory of transformation of human 615 00:44:44.159 --> 00:44:49.719 nature as a kind of philosophical and historical process that takes place through political agency, 616 00:44:50.159 --> 00:44:58.079 but rather now the scientific technological perfection of human beings through interventions in biotechnology 617 00:44:58.159 --> 00:45:02.400 and nanotechnology and artificial intelligence and so forth. What is the conservative answer going 618 00:45:02.480 --> 00:45:10.440 to be to this when we have such a strong kind of less It's basically 619 00:45:10.480 --> 00:45:15.079 saying, if science progresses, then it must be a good thing. If 620 00:45:15.119 --> 00:45:17.079 the material conditions of our life progress, it must be a good thing. 621 00:45:17.119 --> 00:45:21.400 And I think, I think, I think we're at a really critical moment, 622 00:45:21.400 --> 00:45:24.880 a kind of key Lynchin moment where conservatives need to really it seems to 623 00:45:24.920 --> 00:45:30.480 me I think pretty hard about where we are in terms of those questions. 624 00:45:30.599 --> 00:45:34.280 Well, if conservatives believe in smaller government, as we do, then nanotechnology 625 00:45:34.360 --> 00:45:37.599 is very exciting because absolutely enable us to get small, really small, down 626 00:45:37.599 --> 00:45:42.519 to the micron level and perhaps injected into people. All right, Well, 627 00:45:42.559 --> 00:45:44.840 if you want to know more about this, of course, go to Impact 628 00:45:44.880 --> 00:45:47.920 Compact. I'm sorry, and find the apiece which lays out the basic ideas 629 00:45:47.920 --> 00:45:53.639 of regime change towards a postliberal future and why a mixed constitutional future in which 630 00:45:53.679 --> 00:45:59.000 we have a virtuous elite and a virtuous, populous movement walking hand by hand 631 00:45:59.000 --> 00:46:02.719 into a better place where yes, there are boundaries. You read that, 632 00:46:02.840 --> 00:46:06.880 pick up the book, and we thank you Patrick for joining us. Patrick 633 00:46:06.920 --> 00:46:13.519 Dennen, the Notre Dame University Political Science Department, doctor latter. Thanks Patrick, 634 00:46:14.119 --> 00:46:17.159 thank you. Okay, and now we go from the esoteric and the 635 00:46:17.199 --> 00:46:22.039 imperion to the specific and the political. We have Andy McCarthy here to tell 636 00:46:22.119 --> 00:46:23.440 us. Well, you know, Andy has, of course senior Fello up 637 00:46:23.440 --> 00:46:28.039 the National Review Institute, contributing editor there as well as well as Fox News, 638 00:46:28.360 --> 00:46:31.000 served as the assistant US Attorney for the Southern District of New York. 639 00:46:31.599 --> 00:46:37.920 Welcome back, Andy, Trump indicted seven counts. So what does this mean? 640 00:46:38.119 --> 00:46:42.119 And surely it means, if there's going to be a fair application of 641 00:46:42.119 --> 00:46:45.119 the laws, that Hunter Biden is going to be indicted sometime soon. Ryan, 642 00:46:45.559 --> 00:46:53.320 well, at least Joe Biden he's indicted. It's interesting because they these 643 00:46:53.360 --> 00:46:59.760 guys are so political. Virtually every line of what they do is politicized. 644 00:46:59.760 --> 00:47:07.559 So this is a little inside basebally, but they've charged Trump under a provision 645 00:47:07.599 --> 00:47:15.360 of the Espionage Act that requires proof that he willfully retained classified documents and it 646 00:47:15.440 --> 00:47:22.599 seems to me that if you combine the rationale under which they dumped the case 647 00:47:22.639 --> 00:47:30.679 against former Vice President Pence last week and what they're saying about Biden, what 648 00:47:30.719 --> 00:47:35.559 they want you to believe is those guys they're not really an Espionajact problem because 649 00:47:36.000 --> 00:47:40.599 they're victims of sloppy staff work and inadvertent behavior, and they cooperated with the 650 00:47:40.639 --> 00:47:45.519 investigation and all that. Whereas Trump, he's willful, that's why he has 651 00:47:45.559 --> 00:47:50.519 to be prosecuted. But if you look at the Espionage Act, and I 652 00:47:50.559 --> 00:47:52.760 think Donald Trump is going to make sure we all look at the Espionajact, 653 00:47:54.199 --> 00:47:59.960 the subsection of the there's a second subsection of the Act. He's a Trumps 654 00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:02.840 and charge into Subsection D, which is the part that deals with the willful 655 00:48:04.039 --> 00:48:07.800 behavior. But there's this subsection F that you know, Biden's not going to 656 00:48:07.840 --> 00:48:14.480 want to talk about that deals with people who exhibit gross negligence in the mishandling 657 00:48:14.480 --> 00:48:21.599 of classified information. And while the Biden Justice Department and the Democrat media complex 658 00:48:21.639 --> 00:48:23.599 will say, oh, well, but we don't go after people who just 659 00:48:23.679 --> 00:48:28.719 make mistakes. We go after people with willful behavior, the fact is that 660 00:48:28.880 --> 00:48:35.639 Congress made both of them equally ten year felony camps. And you know, 661 00:48:35.679 --> 00:48:38.599 they'll say, well, but Hillary Clinton wasn't prosecuted, which is the same 662 00:48:38.599 --> 00:48:43.840 thing of course Trump is saying. And the problem with that argument is it's 663 00:48:43.880 --> 00:48:50.599 a travesty that Hillary Clinton wasn't prosecuted. And there's no good basis in my 664 00:48:50.679 --> 00:48:54.320 mind to go after Trump on this and not go after Biden. So I 665 00:48:54.679 --> 00:48:59.719 just think this is a gratuitous just for as a political matter rather than a 666 00:48:59.840 --> 00:49:02.280 lead one. I think they're gonna be very sorry they went down this route. 667 00:49:02.800 --> 00:49:06.400 Hey, Andy, it's Rob Long, thanks for joining us. So 668 00:49:06.519 --> 00:49:10.679 I'm you say they're gonna be sorry they went down this route because because it's 669 00:49:10.679 --> 00:49:15.360 going to be revealed to be completely political, or because they're gonna lose, 670 00:49:15.519 --> 00:49:20.440 or both. I think because the selection of Trump to be prosecuted on this 671 00:49:20.679 --> 00:49:24.079 is political. And there was a way Rob to indict this case without doing 672 00:49:24.119 --> 00:49:29.000 that. You could have just indicted it as grand jury obstruction. In other 673 00:49:29.039 --> 00:49:30.719 words, they could they could have just made this case. You know. 674 00:49:30.840 --> 00:49:35.440 Luck we asked him for our stuff back, he wouldn't give it back, 675 00:49:35.840 --> 00:49:43.000 so we gave him a grand jury subpoena and he duped his lawyers into telling 676 00:49:43.360 --> 00:49:47.199 us under oathed that he had given everything back when they gave these thirty eight 677 00:49:47.280 --> 00:49:52.199 documents on June third, And of course that was a full statement. We 678 00:49:52.360 --> 00:49:55.239 you know, two months later they find one hundred more documents. So instead 679 00:49:55.239 --> 00:50:00.559 of you could have taken the ESPNA jack completely out of it, just made 680 00:50:00.559 --> 00:50:05.119 it a plane ol obstructing the grand jury case and look the country in the 681 00:50:05.119 --> 00:50:07.400 eye and say, you know, look, he says, this is a 682 00:50:07.400 --> 00:50:10.480 selective prosecution. But no one in America can lie to a grand jury and 683 00:50:10.519 --> 00:50:13.920 get away with it. And that's the kind of thing I think people could 684 00:50:13.920 --> 00:50:20.159 have wrapped their brains around. Why didn't they do that, because I think 685 00:50:20.320 --> 00:50:22.440 they want to make a well a couple of reasons. First of all, 686 00:50:22.960 --> 00:50:29.239 they want to run against Trump, right, so it doesn't really the more 687 00:50:29.679 --> 00:50:35.760 unfair this seems to be, the more Jim's up Trump's space. And this 688 00:50:35.840 --> 00:50:39.679 has the paradoxical effect of there's like a surge effect and a tail effect. 689 00:50:39.760 --> 00:50:45.159 Right. The surge effect is in the four corners of the primary contest to 690 00:50:45.199 --> 00:50:53.599 win the GOP nomination. It helps Trump because his base is catalyzed and none 691 00:50:53.599 --> 00:50:58.440 of the other candidates can get any traction because they have to talk about Trump 692 00:50:58.519 --> 00:51:01.519 all the time. But the all effect of this is if you combine this 693 00:51:02.079 --> 00:51:08.360 with like Bragg's case and the EG Carol case, and in August you got 694 00:51:08.360 --> 00:51:13.440 the Atlantic case, and then in October's one of those is a fundraising opportunity 695 00:51:13.480 --> 00:51:17.480 for Trump. Yeah, I wouldn't go to sleep on October is the Letitia 696 00:51:17.599 --> 00:51:24.079 James Broad case, the civil case, which is going to be you know, 697 00:51:24.360 --> 00:51:29.719 years of the Trump organization and they're accused of this massive like you know, 698 00:51:29.800 --> 00:51:32.559 insurance, tax fraud, you know, every fraud under the sun. 699 00:51:34.119 --> 00:51:37.039 And then you know, now you have this, then you have Bragg's trial 700 00:51:37.079 --> 00:51:39.880 coming up, and the other thing that's going to happen here at a certain 701 00:51:39.880 --> 00:51:44.000 point, I don't think Trump is going to get charged with a June with 702 00:51:44.159 --> 00:51:50.199 a January sixth crime. But remember Smith is a special counsel, which means 703 00:51:50.239 --> 00:51:53.079 he gets to write a report. So at some moment in time when it's 704 00:51:53.119 --> 00:51:59.320 propitious for them, he's going to Trump a comprehensive report on what Trump did 705 00:51:59.360 --> 00:52:02.760 in connection with the with January sex. So they have this whole thing skelped 706 00:52:02.760 --> 00:52:07.159 out in a way that it's very likely he could win the nomination and then 707 00:52:07.199 --> 00:52:10.719 they're going to frig and kill him as it gets close to is it just? 708 00:52:10.960 --> 00:52:14.880 I mean, he'll also do a number on himself. He's good at 709 00:52:14.920 --> 00:52:17.079 that. I mean, now, okay, what are they all talking to 710 00:52:17.119 --> 00:52:20.719 each other? Or this is just kind of the hive mind at work. 711 00:52:21.480 --> 00:52:27.679 Um. I mean, you what you've sketched out as is a system, 712 00:52:27.719 --> 00:52:30.960 right. I mean, to bring this case in Miami because they want to 713 00:52:30.960 --> 00:52:34.079 bring it, I guess because they want it. They want it, they 714 00:52:34.119 --> 00:52:37.320 don't want to suffer through a venue change. They want to just make it, 715 00:52:37.400 --> 00:52:42.679 make it simple. Um. I mean, I'm just trying to understand, 716 00:52:42.719 --> 00:52:47.800 like, is there anybody there in that entire operation saying, well, 717 00:52:47.800 --> 00:52:54.360 listen, you know this is a little bit we're pushing this because Biden did 718 00:52:54.360 --> 00:52:59.119 it, and Pence did it and Hillary Clinton famously did it. Seems like 719 00:52:59.159 --> 00:53:04.719 everybody's taken stuff home and there's nobody there. There's no dissenting voice, or 720 00:53:04.800 --> 00:53:07.360 is there? Or are we going to hear more about that later? I 721 00:53:07.400 --> 00:53:10.599 think, first of all, it's it's it's a hive mind. But you 722 00:53:10.599 --> 00:53:15.039 know, we're not talking about a complicated issue here. I mean, it's 723 00:53:15.079 --> 00:53:17.000 pretty simple the way this Tea's up right, So I think everybody kind of 724 00:53:17.039 --> 00:53:22.000 knows what's expected of him. I got I must have been asked ten times 725 00:53:22.000 --> 00:53:28.639 today. Do you think that Smith is coordinating with Garland? I mean, 726 00:53:29.280 --> 00:53:32.119 Rob you're talking about, like, are these other prosecutions in different or prosecutors 727 00:53:32.119 --> 00:53:37.719 in different jurisdictions colluding. I don't think Smith is talking to Garland. That 728 00:53:37.760 --> 00:53:42.000 doesn't mean Garland's not running the show, or that Biden's not running the show. 729 00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:45.239 It's that Smith was brought in because he knows what's expected of him. 730 00:53:45.239 --> 00:53:47.079 He knew what he was here to do. They don't have to have a 731 00:53:47.079 --> 00:53:53.440 conversation about that. And I think if you're an activist Democrat, which covers 732 00:53:53.480 --> 00:54:00.280 the Justice Department, and then all these politically elected prosecutors who are state prosecutors 733 00:54:00.320 --> 00:54:05.519 around the country. Let's remember, the state prosecutors, unlike the federal prosecutors, 734 00:54:05.679 --> 00:54:10.599 are elected. They seek office promising their constituents that they're going to use 735 00:54:10.639 --> 00:54:15.559 their power against Trump, and it really doesn't matter that much how the cases 736 00:54:15.599 --> 00:54:17.480 come out. They're supposed to use their power and get Strump, which they're 737 00:54:17.519 --> 00:54:22.079 doing. So I don't think. I don't think it's one of these things 738 00:54:22.119 --> 00:54:24.559 where it's so complicated that we all have to get together to figure out what 739 00:54:25.119 --> 00:54:30.039 each one does next. I think there's a trajectory of this that's pretty simple. 740 00:54:30.119 --> 00:54:32.719 They want him to win the nomination and then they think, you know, 741 00:54:32.840 --> 00:54:38.079 Biden can beat him in the general and it's teeing up that way. 742 00:54:38.119 --> 00:54:45.360 Probably can Steve Heyward out in California. I was glad you mentioned, but 743 00:54:45.400 --> 00:54:47.360 I think you should say more about the Hillary Clinton case from what seven eight 744 00:54:47.480 --> 00:54:51.280 years ago? Now? Yep. And you know what I recall from that, 745 00:54:51.360 --> 00:54:54.320 and this is getting off strictly legality and the constitutional issues involved in this 746 00:54:54.880 --> 00:54:59.920 Trump and its documents is we remember now that James Comey, as head of 747 00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:02.480 the FBI, laid out the case of how she violated the law, but 748 00:55:02.639 --> 00:55:07.480 then said, we're not recommending a prosecution because it's our ethical duty not to 749 00:55:07.519 --> 00:55:10.559 bring a prosecution that could not be won in court. In other words, 750 00:55:10.559 --> 00:55:15.559 what he was saying was, no DC jury will convict Hillary Clinton. What 751 00:55:15.679 --> 00:55:19.400 does it tell us that now they're not applying that same standard of judgment to 752 00:55:19.400 --> 00:55:22.599 Trump. I mean, it seems to me it's problematic on its face, 753 00:55:22.679 --> 00:55:27.840 but below the surface, it's increasing reasons for people to be deeply cynical about 754 00:55:27.840 --> 00:55:30.880 the fairness of our law enforcement oparatus in the country. Yeah, I think 755 00:55:30.880 --> 00:55:35.719 it's worse than that sty because I don't think Komey believed the word he was 756 00:55:35.760 --> 00:55:38.840 saying. Yeah. First one of the reasons for example, you know, 757 00:55:38.880 --> 00:55:43.199 we just talked about the difference in the sp and a jack between the willfulness 758 00:55:43.239 --> 00:55:51.480 thing and what it is a gross negligence provision. I thought the gross negligence 759 00:55:51.519 --> 00:55:53.559 thing was like the shiny object. I thought it was a diversionary tactic. 760 00:55:53.760 --> 00:56:00.679 To my mind, having done this for a while, Hillary clinton case was 761 00:56:00.719 --> 00:56:07.800 the easiest wilfulness case in the history of cases. She intentionally systematically created a 762 00:56:07.840 --> 00:56:15.960 communication system that was non secure and outside the government channels, even though she 763 00:56:15.079 --> 00:56:22.000 was a Secretary of State who had to enforce against her subordinates the government provision 764 00:56:22.039 --> 00:56:25.199 that you're supposed to do government work on government facilities. She did it under 765 00:56:25.199 --> 00:56:31.159 circumstances where eighty percent of her job was national security and foreign relations work that's 766 00:56:31.280 --> 00:56:37.400 foreign classified as far as the government was concerned, So she had to know 767 00:56:37.679 --> 00:56:44.079 it was inevitable that highly classified information was going to transit through and be stored 768 00:56:44.199 --> 00:56:49.760 on her Homebrew system. So she did that wilfully, that was not accidental 769 00:56:50.440 --> 00:56:57.079 behavior. And then when they caught her on it, and there was a 770 00:56:57.159 --> 00:57:02.039 congressional subpoena issued to her in connection with Benghazi, she intentionally not only deleted, 771 00:57:02.159 --> 00:57:07.880 but had destroyed thirty three thousand emails, which Komy ended up having to 772 00:57:07.960 --> 00:57:15.280 concede had some classified information in it and some State Department business, and it 773 00:57:15.440 --> 00:57:20.960 probably quite a lot. And where they didn't go public. You know, 774 00:57:21.000 --> 00:57:24.119 what Komey excised out of his statement that he gave publicly was that the FBI 775 00:57:24.320 --> 00:57:29.559 was convinced that her system had been hacked by foreign intelligence services. She had 776 00:57:29.559 --> 00:57:37.119 even talked to Obama over the system from Russia. So that's like, there's 777 00:57:37.199 --> 00:57:40.880 no reason on God's green earth that that that case wasn't brought. I think 778 00:57:40.920 --> 00:57:45.199 any reasonable prosecutor. I know a lot of people have accused me of being 779 00:57:45.239 --> 00:57:51.480 an unreasonable prosecutor, but I think any reasonable prosecutor would have been delighted to 780 00:57:51.519 --> 00:57:57.239 take that case to trial. But they were never going to prosecute her. 781 00:57:57.559 --> 00:58:02.800 In April of twenty sixteen, while the investigation was still ongoing in an early 782 00:58:02.840 --> 00:58:07.440 stage, Obama came out publicly and said he didn't want her to be charged, 783 00:58:08.119 --> 00:58:12.960 and Coomey ended up not charging her, and three months later, when 784 00:58:13.000 --> 00:58:16.320 he explained why she shouldn't be charged, he virtually echoed what Obama had said 785 00:58:16.719 --> 00:58:22.880 in April. So the fix was in on this from the beginning. And 786 00:58:22.960 --> 00:58:28.880 I hope that Trump is talking about this case every single day, because not 787 00:58:28.920 --> 00:58:31.760 only I don't know if it'll read down to his benefit or not. Selective 788 00:58:31.760 --> 00:58:38.559 prosecutions one of these things where it's a good argument for why prosecutorial discretion should 789 00:58:38.559 --> 00:58:43.400 not be exercised to charge. But once you do charge, it's not much 790 00:58:43.440 --> 00:58:46.480 of a defensive trial. It's kind of a nullification defense. But you know 791 00:58:46.519 --> 00:58:51.119 the judge is going to tell the jury at trial the only person on trial 792 00:58:51.159 --> 00:58:54.559 here is Donald Trump, and the question is has he'd been proven guilty on 793 00:58:54.599 --> 00:59:00.159 the charges against him. It's not a legal defense for him that somebody who 794 00:59:00.239 --> 00:59:05.239 did similar things wasn't prosecuted, But I think politically it's going to be a 795 00:59:05.320 --> 00:59:14.519 very powerful argument. Today, Hillary Clinton reminded people that you can buy baseball 796 00:59:14.559 --> 00:59:20.280 caps that say but her emails if you go to this address. She tweeted 797 00:59:20.320 --> 00:59:25.280 that out in order to just let everybody know that she completely got away with 798 00:59:25.320 --> 00:59:30.360 it. Absolutely, it's so much in your face and it's it's so we 799 00:59:30.599 --> 00:59:36.480 don't care what you crazy people think. I'm surprised she's not having an event 800 00:59:36.559 --> 00:59:40.480 at Comet Pizza to anything. And we gotta go Andy. You know, 801 00:59:40.480 --> 00:59:44.199 one of these days we're gonna stop going to you because there's no news about 802 00:59:44.199 --> 00:59:47.079 this stuff and the country's on an even keel and a good, good trajectory 803 00:59:47.119 --> 00:59:51.159 forward. But I don't think that's going to happen. So stay close to 804 00:59:51.159 --> 00:59:52.920 your phone, and we always appreciate what we're able to call you fast and 805 00:59:52.960 --> 00:59:55.960 get you on all right, Let's have a great weekend. Talct you later. 806 00:59:57.039 --> 01:00:00.400 Bye bye. Speaking a great weekends. One of the things people doing 807 01:00:00.400 --> 01:00:02.079 the weekends, of course, he is gathered around the barbecue. They have 808 01:00:02.159 --> 01:00:06.599 themselves a bigger They have a burger and the rest of it, and they 809 01:00:06.719 --> 01:00:09.599 meet and greet. They're near and deer, but sometimes meeting and greeting those 810 01:00:09.639 --> 01:00:15.119 who are completing other strangers can be fun too. Strangers in the sands. 811 01:00:15.119 --> 01:00:16.039 They maybe you didn't meet them in the real world, but you know them 812 01:00:16.079 --> 01:00:20.760 from online. And that's what we love about the Ricochet get togethers and here's 813 01:00:20.800 --> 01:00:23.400 Rob Long to tell you about one that might be in all about it. 814 01:00:24.000 --> 01:00:28.440 Yeah, you're absolutely right. They're not strangers. They're fellow members, club 815 01:00:28.480 --> 01:00:31.880 members of the Ricochet Club. So we do that. We love the online 816 01:00:31.880 --> 01:00:36.280 stuff, obviously, that's part of our identity. We like podcasts. We 817 01:00:36.320 --> 01:00:38.360 love it when we mix it up in the podcast as well in the pages 818 01:00:38.400 --> 01:00:42.320 of Ricochet. On the other hand, it's always nice to get together, 819 01:00:42.639 --> 01:00:45.400 so we have meetups, and there are some meetups coming up in Winston Stalem, 820 01:00:45.440 --> 01:00:49.440 there's a meetup in mid July. The annual German Fest meetup in Milwaukee's 821 01:00:49.480 --> 01:00:52.320 happening the last weekend in July, Labor Day weekend meet up in Cookville, 822 01:00:52.320 --> 01:00:57.880 Tennessee. There's some tentative meetup scheduled for Columbus, Ohio in late June. 823 01:00:57.880 --> 01:01:00.599 That's late this month. And there is a meet up in Portland, Oregon, 824 01:01:00.840 --> 01:01:05.599 happening in mid July. The dates specific dates coming soon. And Mammoth 825 01:01:05.599 --> 01:01:10.440 Cave National Park in Kentucky in August also has some moving around it. How 826 01:01:10.480 --> 01:01:13.679 do you find out about all the stuff? You go to ricochet dot com. 827 01:01:13.679 --> 01:01:15.599 You join Ricochet and you say I'll be there and if one of these 828 01:01:15.599 --> 01:01:20.440 things or none of these things work for you, for timing wise or geography 829 01:01:20.440 --> 01:01:22.960 wise. You just say, hey, how about a meet up closer to 830 01:01:22.000 --> 01:01:25.239 you at a date you can do it, and believe me, Ricochet members 831 01:01:25.239 --> 01:01:30.280 will show up. And that is really the most fun part about being a 832 01:01:30.320 --> 01:01:34.440 member of Ricochet. It certainly is before we go anything on your mind, 833 01:01:34.440 --> 01:01:37.719 before we wrap it up here and we have a few more trying to keep 834 01:01:37.760 --> 01:01:39.719 these podcasts, you know, close to an hour or something like that, 835 01:01:39.719 --> 01:01:43.519 because we know that people sit down, they get riveted, they lose track 836 01:01:43.559 --> 01:01:45.360 of what they're doing. They're stopped knitting, they stopped fixing, they stopped 837 01:01:45.400 --> 01:01:49.119 driving, they pull over to hear something, and you know, then they 838 01:01:49.119 --> 01:01:52.800 complain to us, I was immobilized by ninety minutes of brilliance? Can you 839 01:01:52.920 --> 01:01:54.800 keep it down to sixty five or sixty six or sixty seven like that? 840 01:01:55.400 --> 01:01:59.320 But is there a story this week, guys, something that popped up that 841 01:02:00.079 --> 01:02:04.840 made you think, here's a sign of societal disclosure, or, as Paul 842 01:02:04.880 --> 01:02:07.960 Harvey might say, the you know, the news of something that was pointed 843 01:02:07.960 --> 01:02:13.039 at hopeful, today's news of most lasting significance. I don't know why I 844 01:02:13.039 --> 01:02:16.280 thought of Paul Harvey there. I was just I guess because I came across 845 01:02:16.280 --> 01:02:20.599 some Paul Harvey stuff the other day in which he was taking it wasn't Amoy 846 01:02:20.679 --> 01:02:23.039 necessarily, because he's got this great record, which is essentially thirty minutes of 847 01:02:23.039 --> 01:02:27.760 what is fine about America culminating in a praise of Amoy and the rest of 848 01:02:27.800 --> 01:02:32.719 it. He was just such an interesting broadcaster to me that I lament the 849 01:02:32.800 --> 01:02:37.480 loss of him. And we don't have to rust Limbaugh anymore? Do we 850 01:02:37.480 --> 01:02:42.480 have Do we have anybody who commands that sort of national Because Paul Harvey came 851 01:02:42.480 --> 01:02:45.960 on at noon, right and everybody stopped and listening to what Paul he was 852 01:02:46.000 --> 01:02:50.280 doing. Rush came on at eleven where I was. And now in the 853 01:02:50.320 --> 01:02:52.960 podcast world, it's just all diffuse. There's no sort of there's there's no 854 01:02:53.039 --> 01:02:57.679 sense of those stentorian voices had come on at a particular time to mark the 855 01:02:58.599 --> 01:03:02.480 phases of the day. Is there that's gone forever, isn't it? Yeah? 856 01:03:02.480 --> 01:03:06.000 It probably is, James, But I mean, look, I mean, 857 01:03:06.039 --> 01:03:08.840 I'm old enough to remember when seventy five million Americans watched the evening news, 858 01:03:08.880 --> 01:03:12.119 when the country was half the size of this today, and now that 859 01:03:12.199 --> 01:03:15.119 number is down under thirty million. I think, who watched the evening news, 860 01:03:15.760 --> 01:03:19.039 the network news, right, but I am surprised, what's on your 861 01:03:19.039 --> 01:03:22.239 mind? I saw a story this week that immediately thought, this has to 862 01:03:22.280 --> 01:03:27.440 be cat nips for James. And that's the flurry of UFO stories. Yeah, 863 01:03:27.519 --> 01:03:30.599 but I'm deeply skeptical of them, because, well, what I wait 864 01:03:30.639 --> 01:03:31.920 for is a detail. They say, we have things, all right, 865 01:03:32.119 --> 01:03:35.679 names from specific things. Do we have an engine? Do we have a 866 01:03:36.639 --> 01:03:39.519 composite material we don't understand? Do we have control services? Do we have 867 01:03:39.760 --> 01:03:44.480 a limb from an alien being in the biology lab? None of that has 868 01:03:44.519 --> 01:03:49.320 been suggested. This all secondhand. I've heard this well placed sources. I 869 01:03:49.320 --> 01:03:52.679 don't know. I count me as skeptical until somebody shows up with a fragment 870 01:03:52.719 --> 01:03:55.920 from Alpha Centauri or something. No, I'm all about Fox Molder's poster here. 871 01:03:55.920 --> 01:03:59.480 I want to believe too, but it's a tree. But again, 872 01:03:59.559 --> 01:04:02.199 show me something. I mean the amount of UFO footage or I'm sorry, 873 01:04:02.320 --> 01:04:05.239 up footage that right now. It was pretty incredible, and some of it's 874 01:04:05.239 --> 01:04:09.000 getting actually better. I mean I carry it on in my pocket, a 875 01:04:09.000 --> 01:04:12.199 four K phone that is capable of an enormous detail and the rest of it, 876 01:04:12.199 --> 01:04:14.639 and so do a novel a lot of other people. So until we 877 01:04:14.679 --> 01:04:20.079 start getting a welter of really convincing footage and not just something that's darting a 878 01:04:20.119 --> 01:04:24.840 round of the sky, I want something that's artifact for you when you subjected 879 01:04:24.880 --> 01:04:29.039 to analysis, I want I want the gray alien striding towards me with his 880 01:04:29.159 --> 01:04:31.320 bighead and his black liquid eyes and his swinging hands and the rest of it. 881 01:04:31.480 --> 01:04:35.239 That's what I want. In the absence of that, then I'm sorry, 882 01:04:35.280 --> 01:04:41.039 I'm not I'm not going to believe any of it. I remembered in 883 01:04:41.079 --> 01:04:43.400 the late nineties when we were going through this whole stuff, we had a 884 01:04:43.440 --> 01:04:45.599 big UFO crace where people were being abducted. They were all over the place. 885 01:04:45.639 --> 01:04:48.719 We had an alien, there was an autopsy. There was that, 886 01:04:49.440 --> 01:04:51.559 and there was photographs of it and the rest of it, and it was 887 01:04:53.719 --> 01:04:57.480 every single piece of evidence that was trotted. I was completely inconclusive and unconvincing. 888 01:04:57.519 --> 01:04:59.559 If you wanted to be a skeptical myy, the only way to think 889 01:04:59.559 --> 01:05:02.199 about this stuff is to proceed from a certain set of assumptions about the likelihood 890 01:05:02.199 --> 01:05:05.360 of life in the universe, throw away everything you know about science, like, 891 01:05:05.400 --> 01:05:08.440 well, I can't get here because the universe is too big and you 892 01:05:08.480 --> 01:05:10.800 can't go faster than like yeah, okay, well you know, maybe they 893 01:05:10.800 --> 01:05:14.199 figure that out and then get down to the third thing about how they've been 894 01:05:14.239 --> 01:05:16.000 hanging around for an awful long time and nobody found them because they never crashed 895 01:05:16.119 --> 01:05:20.199 because cameras weren't bad. Okay, well, now cameras are better. Now 896 01:05:20.679 --> 01:05:24.800 the government is admitting we don't know what these is. All right, that's 897 01:05:24.840 --> 01:05:30.199 still all a big gashes mix out there. Show me something, put it 898 01:05:30.280 --> 01:05:33.039 out on display, have the journalists from all over the country come and take 899 01:05:33.079 --> 01:05:38.000 pictures of it that then we can talk until we get to that point. 900 01:05:38.039 --> 01:05:41.119 Shut up. I'm sorry, Yeah, I mean you think it's sort of 901 01:05:41.119 --> 01:05:43.239 this. I mean, you'd think the people who faked the moon land and 902 01:05:43.239 --> 01:05:45.320 could fake a UFO, and but so far that you know, we're not 903 01:05:45.360 --> 01:05:48.719 even getting that. That's so much contempt they have for us. Well, 904 01:05:48.760 --> 01:05:50.519 I mean, I know we got a run. But one of the things 905 01:05:50.559 --> 01:05:55.960 I find interesting about this is that forever, forever, I mean I can't 906 01:05:56.199 --> 01:06:02.000 remember a time, maybe every single movie, the premise has always been when 907 01:06:02.039 --> 01:06:05.880 we find the UFOs or the UAPs, what are they are? Um, 908 01:06:05.960 --> 01:06:11.239 we can't telp the people. The people can't know because they'll freak out because 909 01:06:11.280 --> 01:06:15.119 nobody can handle this. This is just two bananas. And the truth is 910 01:06:15.159 --> 01:06:18.559 that if they announced tomorrow oh yeah, yeah, we've been visited by aliens, 911 01:06:18.800 --> 01:06:21.119 people be like, Oh that's really interesting. I'm gonna trust about that. 912 01:06:21.199 --> 01:06:25.960 And you know, uh, how do they feel about the Trump indictment? 913 01:06:26.360 --> 01:06:30.079 You know, it was really kind of I have I have an idea 914 01:06:30.119 --> 01:06:32.039 that when when, when this happens, it's just going to be this thing 915 01:06:32.079 --> 01:06:34.599 like oh yeah, you know, oh, well here's the alien. He's 916 01:06:34.599 --> 01:06:38.519 going to be on um, you know, he's going to be on a 917 01:06:38.559 --> 01:06:43.119 Twitter spaces. Okay, here's what you do is you do what they've been 918 01:06:43.159 --> 01:06:45.679 doing. If you say we have to prepare the public, how do we 919 01:06:45.719 --> 01:06:47.119 prepare the public? Well, we give them the idea these things exist, 920 01:06:47.159 --> 01:06:50.000 and then we have a whole bunch of science fiction movies, and then we 921 01:06:50.039 --> 01:06:54.039 have a whole bunch of different things to train them to look for this so 922 01:06:54.159 --> 01:06:57.880 that they assume that maybe actually this is the saucers and the Dutton and the 923 01:06:57.920 --> 01:07:00.400 rest of it. We we spend thirty four years si opping the people. 924 01:07:00.679 --> 01:07:05.440 Sometimes we'll give him a really big, huge alien spacecraft that's friendly and pretty 925 01:07:05.480 --> 01:07:09.880 and pastel and glowing, like Steven Spielberg did. And then we'll give them 926 01:07:09.920 --> 01:07:13.000 the Independence Day thing that scares the bleep out of them. And it's you 927 01:07:13.039 --> 01:07:15.440 know, since it's neither of those two, they won't be too upset when 928 01:07:15.480 --> 01:07:18.360 we drib drab out that there are some tic teks flying around and we don't 929 01:07:18.360 --> 01:07:21.360 know. I mean at this point, yes, it's a great fan there's 930 01:07:21.360 --> 01:07:27.320 a great fan theory about the Spielberg movies they booked in is there's close Encounters, 931 01:07:27.679 --> 01:07:30.639 right, and then there's Et and then he did the other one the 932 01:07:30.760 --> 01:07:33.039 day the Earth's Are Still or whatever that one was that remember he did, 933 01:07:33.199 --> 01:07:36.760 didn't he do what he didn't? That was not a Spielberg every he did. 934 01:07:38.239 --> 01:07:41.199 He did the remake of War of the World. The World that's right, 935 01:07:41.599 --> 01:07:45.800 So like you know that the aliens come and visit it and then one 936 01:07:45.840 --> 01:07:50.480 of them is then captured by children and tortured in a closet, and then 937 01:07:50.599 --> 01:07:57.679 Et goes home and they prepare the invasion force, which is War of the 938 01:07:57.679 --> 01:08:01.920 World's Those ets in there. That's that's a bit much. We actually saw 939 01:08:01.960 --> 01:08:06.599 the creature at the end in the Great original, The War of the World's 940 01:08:06.679 --> 01:08:10.440 movie. All we saw with a little three fingered thing that just kind of 941 01:08:10.519 --> 01:08:14.079 limped its way out the hole and died. Now we actually saw the Aliens 942 01:08:14.119 --> 01:08:17.239 the Martians in the spe Steven Spielberg, and they were not et They were 943 01:08:17.239 --> 01:08:20.279 a nasty bunch of m evers and no, I'm sorry. So anyway, 944 01:08:20.279 --> 01:08:28.199 if you wanted to train the people, they were eats orcs works. Oh 945 01:08:28.279 --> 01:08:30.119 yeah, I got to stop there. I got to stop there because we 946 01:08:30.159 --> 01:08:32.720 have a we have a title for the podcast, we've got a graphic. 947 01:08:32.840 --> 01:08:36.840 There's nothing we cannot improve upon it. Peter Robinson, we helpe. We'll 948 01:08:36.880 --> 01:08:40.920 be back next week, or maybe we don't because we love having Steve Hayward 949 01:08:40.920 --> 01:08:44.800 around. Steve had been great to end. Take care and good to have 950 01:08:44.840 --> 01:08:46.039 you and thank you for everything you've done. Rob We hope you get back 951 01:08:46.079 --> 01:08:49.720 to New York soon. But remember where you're in ninety five so that you 952 01:08:49.800 --> 01:08:56.199 don't expire as the Canadian will active war frankly continues to belong at the United 953 01:08:56.239 --> 01:09:00.000 States. I will see everybody in you know, I usually say we'll see 954 01:09:00.039 --> 01:09:02.319 you and Ricochet four point zero, but, as our new leader has been 955 01:09:02.359 --> 01:09:10.640 reminding us, coming soon is five point excited Going to be fantastic. They're 956 01:09:10.680 --> 01:09:13.279 probably broken for the first two days, so hurry up, get your comments 957 01:09:13.319 --> 01:09:17.479 in and join if you will, at ricochet dot com. See you there 958 01:09:17.560 --> 01:09:26.680 next week, guys, Thanks you Ricochet. Join the Conversation