1 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:21,440 We're back with another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Jasinski, 2 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,480 culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show 3 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:28,399 at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on Twitter at fdr LST. 4 00:00:28,719 --> 00:00:32,600 Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts as well. Today is 5 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:36,000 a Memorial Day, so we are going to have a special episode, a 6 00:00:36,039 --> 00:00:41,600 special edition of Federalist Radio Hour, because today's show features an interview with Vietnam 7 00:00:41,719 --> 00:00:48,240 prisoner of War Hal Kushner. He is commemorating his dinner with President Nixon over 8 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:53,560 at the Nixon Library this week, actually last week. We taped this episode 9 00:00:53,679 --> 00:00:56,960 on May twenty fourth. You'll hear how I'll reference the dinner that he's doing 10 00:00:57,719 --> 00:01:03,359 on May twenty four with the Nixon Library. But you'll also hear an incredible 11 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:10,079 story. This is one of the most fascinating and moving interviews that I can 12 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:15,040 remember ever having done, whether in a podcast or for a story. So 13 00:01:15,159 --> 00:01:21,159 it's it's a way to I think, focus our minds on listening to how 14 00:01:21,239 --> 00:01:25,799 stories, a way to sort of focus our minds on what's important Memorial Day, 15 00:01:25,879 --> 00:01:30,480 What's what's worth remembering and appreciating. And thank you God for here in 16 00:01:30,519 --> 00:01:36,120 the United States of America. So I hope you'll stick with with us through 17 00:01:36,159 --> 00:01:45,120 this interview because how story is truly, truly incredible and inspirational. So stay 18 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:49,040 tuned for a special Memorial Day edition of Federalist Radio Hour with Hal Kushner. 19 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:57,599 How thank you so much for joining us. It's my pleasure and thank you 20 00:01:57,159 --> 00:02:01,599 absolutely. Now did I get all of that background information correct? One thousand, 21 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:07,159 nine hundred and thirty three days in captivity. That is an incredibly long 22 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:10,039 time period. Obviously you don't need me to tell you that, but oh 23 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:15,919 my goodness, that's truly how long you were in captivity? How? Yes, 24 00:02:15,039 --> 00:02:21,120 I was captured on two December nineteen sixty seven and released to American control 25 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:28,120 on sixteen March nineteen seventy three. Was five years and four months and one 26 00:02:28,199 --> 00:02:32,080 thousand, nine hundred and thirty three days. That's unthinkable. Maybe we should 27 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:36,759 even just start by rewinding a little bit and having you just tell us how 28 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:40,439 a little bit about growing up in Hawaii in the shadow of the Pearl Harbor 29 00:02:40,479 --> 00:02:46,159 attacks in a military family. What was it like? Well, I didn't 30 00:02:46,159 --> 00:02:51,000 grow up in Hawaii. We were bombed by the Japanese on seven December and 31 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:53,240 on Christmas Day, and I was six months old, so I have no 32 00:02:53,360 --> 00:03:00,560 memory of this. This is all family folklore. On Christmas Day, my 33 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:04,840 dad, who was a captain in the Army Air Corps, was deployed to 34 00:03:04,879 --> 00:03:08,719 the Pacific War, and the same day the rest of the family, my 35 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:15,240 brother who was seven, who was still alive at eighty nine, and my 36 00:03:15,319 --> 00:03:23,719 mom and my maternal grandfather who was visiting us for Christmas, were evacuated to 37 00:03:23,759 --> 00:03:30,680 the mainland to California on a luxury liner called the Lurline, and the ship 38 00:03:31,599 --> 00:03:38,560 there were about five thousand refugees on the ship that was big enough for about 39 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:44,240 two thousand, and my brother had terrible asthma and it was exacerbated, of 40 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:47,400 course by the stress of the event, and he had to have a tracheostomy 41 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:53,719 onboard ship. I often think about my poor mom, who was twenty four 42 00:03:53,800 --> 00:04:00,199 years old with her father and a baby and another boy with asthma that had 43 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:05,080 to have this emergency surgery. I mean she was that was truly the greatest 44 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:10,199 generation what she had to go through. My dad went to the Pacific and 45 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:15,319 came back thirteen months later, seriously wounded and he was in the Army Navy 46 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:18,560 Hospital in Hot Springs, Arkansas for a couple of months, and then he 47 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:25,600 formed up with the ninety ninth Infantry Division and went to Europe for the rest 48 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:30,720 of the war. So I grew up not in Hawaii, but with various 49 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:38,319 relatives around the United States, in Atlanta and Chicago, and the last couple 50 00:04:38,319 --> 00:04:45,399 of years in my dad's hometown of Danville, Virginia, with my paternal grandparents 51 00:04:46,079 --> 00:04:51,560 and some cousins who were a generation older than I am whose men were overseas. 52 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:58,959 Also, when I think in this house there were five adults and four 53 00:04:59,079 --> 00:05:09,759 kids of three different families whose men were serving overseas. We had one bathroom. 54 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:14,600 I remember that vividly because I remember my dad coming home in nineteen forty 55 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:19,600 five, and my earliest, one of my earliest memories is President Roosevelt dying 56 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:25,680 in April of forty five, and I was playing on the floor in my 57 00:05:25,759 --> 00:05:29,399 grandmother's house, and I remember this big brown radio over in the corner and 58 00:05:29,439 --> 00:05:33,519 everybody sitting around crying, and I asked my mom, what's happened, what's 59 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:36,399 going on, and she said, hush, the President has died. I 60 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:42,079 remember that very vividly. So one of my first memories. I was actually 61 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:46,480 going to ask how you heard but radio. That's so interesting and probably so 62 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:51,759 confusing to any young people listening to this. You think you are young people 63 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:56,879 listening to this? Good? I think so. I think so. But 64 00:05:57,399 --> 00:06:00,759 that said, so, your father was in the Army Air Corps and you 65 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:04,560 go to med school end up enlisting in nineteen sixty five. Can you tell 66 00:06:04,639 --> 00:06:09,360 us how, just a little bit about how your father's service, your family 67 00:06:09,439 --> 00:06:14,199 service, influenced your decision to enlist in the mid sixties while you're in med 68 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:17,000 school. Yeah, well, it was not only my father's service, but 69 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:20,480 it was World War Two. You know. We grew up in World War 70 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:29,399 Two and the fires of patriotism were burning very brightly, and I think it 71 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:36,519 was imbued in US and the people of my generation, as you're supposed to 72 00:06:36,639 --> 00:06:43,759 support and serve your country. And I went to college and University of North 73 00:06:43,759 --> 00:06:46,879 Carolina at Chapel Hill, and then I went to medical school at the Medical 74 00:06:46,879 --> 00:06:54,040 College of Virginia in Richmond. I was a Virginia Boy and there was a 75 00:06:54,040 --> 00:07:00,279 program called the Senior Medical Student Program where one could enlist as a medical student, 76 00:07:00,399 --> 00:07:04,920 get paid a first lieutenant salary the senior year in med school with essentially 77 00:07:04,959 --> 00:07:12,959 no responsibilities except to make good grades. And then when we graduated, we 78 00:07:12,959 --> 00:07:16,480 were commissioned a captain in the Medical Corps, and we could do a civilian 79 00:07:16,519 --> 00:07:21,839 internship or a military internship, and then we owed the army three years instead 80 00:07:21,879 --> 00:07:27,360 of two. And I thought it was a great deal because I was married 81 00:07:27,399 --> 00:07:33,519 with a baby and was struggling financially. I had two jobs while I was 82 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:38,120 in med school, working at night, so it was a wonderful deal. 83 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:42,480 And another boy and I decided to do it our junior years in med school. 84 00:07:42,519 --> 00:07:46,439 We drove up from Richmond to Fort Meade, Maryland, and signed the 85 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:54,560 papers and took the commission. And I knew Vietnam was going on. It 86 00:07:54,639 --> 00:07:58,360 was just heating up. This is nineteen sixty five, but I thought we 87 00:07:58,399 --> 00:08:01,639 should be in Vietnam, and I thought at least I could probably choose the 88 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:05,759 year I win. I was going to ask about that, actually, because 89 00:08:05,879 --> 00:08:09,959 it's it's a really critical time to have enlisted at the time. Could you 90 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:15,639 tell us a little bit more about your perception of why it was important, 91 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:20,639 as you said, to enlist to serve the country and to sort of express 92 00:08:20,639 --> 00:08:26,040 your patriotism with the greatest possible sacrifice that the name one can make, which 93 00:08:26,079 --> 00:08:31,240 is serving the armed forces. Well, I wanted to serve my country, 94 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:33,679 you know, when you're young. First of all, it's an adventure. 95 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:39,759 Second of all, I have a sense of patriotism and duty toward my country. 96 00:08:39,799 --> 00:08:43,559 I mean, even today, I believe very strongly in universal service, 97 00:08:43,919 --> 00:08:50,759 not just selective service. But I think everybody should serve their country. If 98 00:08:50,759 --> 00:08:56,720 we're lucky enough to be an American. It's easy enough to do two years 99 00:08:56,759 --> 00:08:58,240 after high school. If you don't want to be in the military, you 100 00:08:58,279 --> 00:09:03,200 can each or help the poor or chopped down trees or something that you can 101 00:09:03,399 --> 00:09:13,080 do service. And I guess my parents or my grandparents taught me that. 102 00:09:13,639 --> 00:09:16,679 So this was the way I could express my patriotism, serve my country, 103 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:26,919 and also help out my family financially. And I was lucky. Because this 104 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:31,360 is complicated. But when one graduates from med school, then the next year 105 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:37,240 of training is called an internship. Nowadays they call it postgraduate year one, 106 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:45,159 but it's an internship, and you are matched. You list the hospitals that 107 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:50,559 you would like to intern and apply, and the hospitals list the candidates in 108 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:52,799 the order that they would take them, so you get to match with the 109 00:09:52,879 --> 00:09:58,840 highest one. And my highest one was the hospital in which I had been 110 00:09:58,879 --> 00:10:01,759 born, Trippler, and I was lucky enough to be selected. So I 111 00:10:01,879 --> 00:10:09,039 interned in Hawaii and in the hospital of my birth. And that was an 112 00:10:09,039 --> 00:10:18,679 amazing experience because I took a mixed surgical internship, which meant I rotated among 113 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:22,240 different surgical specialties. But after two months after I did my ob gyn, 114 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:30,519 wounded gis and US Marines started pouring into our hospital from Vietnam. And they 115 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:37,960 came by air and they were still in their battle dress, bloody and muddy, 116 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:41,639 and they had little cards on them saying what their wound was and how 117 00:10:41,639 --> 00:10:45,919 many sirettes of morphine they had had. They went right into our hospital and 118 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:52,720 we discharged all the dependence or the civilians from our hospital retirees, and we 119 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:58,559 filled it with the wounded gis and United States Marines. And my internship was 120 00:10:58,639 --> 00:11:05,879 essentially ORTHOPEDICX. I was transferred to orthopedics and worked on orthopedics for the next 121 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:13,159 nine months, and these I learned a lot about soldiering, about leadership, 122 00:11:13,919 --> 00:11:20,720 and about orthopedics. But that was secondary. The commanding general of the Fleet 123 00:11:20,759 --> 00:11:26,519 Marine Force specific then was General Krulak. He was a little guy, but 124 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:28,879 I think he was about five to five, and they called him Brute Brute 125 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:35,840 Krulak and General Krulak, who wore three stars on his shoulder as lieutenant general, 126 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:39,120 went out to the airport at all hours a day and night and met 127 00:11:39,159 --> 00:11:45,600 his marines. And he would walk through the hospital to see his wounded marines. 128 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:50,840 They would alive attention and he would pin their purple hearts on them. 129 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:56,679 But I mean, it was just an amazing lesson in what leadership is. 130 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:03,120 So you are deployed of Vietnam in August of nineteen sixty seven. Could you 131 00:12:03,159 --> 00:12:07,240 tell us a little bit about what you were feeling when you deployed. Obviously, 132 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:11,440 you know they're the extent of the war. Everything we know now we 133 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:16,960 didn't necessarily know then. But were you frightened? What's it like to be, 134 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:20,679 you know, a young man in nineteen sixty seven headed off to Vietnam? 135 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:28,519 Oh? Well, I don't think I was frightened. There was a 136 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:35,240 sense of adventure, you know, when you're young, not very smart, 137 00:12:37,399 --> 00:12:43,000 had gone through flight surgery school. I was interested in aviation, and I 138 00:12:43,039 --> 00:12:46,840 went through flight surgery school, and I knew that flight surgeons in Vietnam went 139 00:12:46,879 --> 00:12:52,039 together like hands and gloves, and so I knew I was going to Vietnam. 140 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:56,200 Finished my flight surgery training, I already had orders for Vietnam. My 141 00:12:56,240 --> 00:13:01,600 wife and child. We're living in my hometown, dan Vulle, Virginia, 142 00:13:01,639 --> 00:13:09,399 in an apartment. My parents were there. And I went to Vietnam. 143 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:13,919 And after I had been assigned to the first start in ninth Cavalry, which 144 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,559 was a combat unit, a real combat unit. I replaced a flight surgeon 145 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:24,360 named Carl Schanepp, who was a young doctor from Memphis, Tennessee, who 146 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:28,120 had been killed in action a few months before, and we were involved in 147 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:33,080 daily combat. After I'd been there about a month, I got a letter 148 00:13:33,879 --> 00:13:39,240 of these are the days before internet and so forth. And I got a 149 00:13:39,399 --> 00:13:43,519 letter from my wife telling me that she was pregnant with a due data in 150 00:13:43,639 --> 00:13:52,960 April of sixty eight. So I did. My mission was to be the 151 00:13:52,039 --> 00:13:56,960 medical doctor for aviators. I took care of aviators, and I knew about 152 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:01,879 aviation, and I knew about the psychology of aviation. And my job was 153 00:14:01,919 --> 00:14:05,159 to play cards with these fellows, to sit with them, to drink with 154 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:09,559 them, to socialize with them, to realize when they were under too much 155 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,720 stress, and ground them from flying for a while, and just to be 156 00:14:13,879 --> 00:14:20,159 their doctor. And also my job was I had seventeen medics in my medical 157 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:24,600 platoon. They were combat medics and they went out on operations as I did 158 00:14:24,639 --> 00:14:31,879 too. And I had three sergeants who were administrators and also combat medics. 159 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:37,159 And I I was supposed to have one second lieutenant who was an administrative officer, 160 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:41,879 but I didn't have him. So I went out on operations and we 161 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:45,440 treated wounded. We had an aide station. We had two aide stations, 162 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:50,840 was essentially a sandbag tent in the forward area, and we had a quantit 163 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:54,840 hunt in the rear area where we did sitcall. We were back there. 164 00:14:54,919 --> 00:14:58,720 But when soldiers were wounded in combat, they were brought back to the aide 165 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:03,240 station after being treated in the field, and I would render life and limb 166 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:09,559 saving surgery, and if they needed to be evacuated to a more advanced facility, 167 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:13,320 we would advance them to a surgical hospital by helicopter, or a field 168 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:18,960 hospital or an evacuation hospital like the one in Hawaii. Or Japan or the 169 00:15:20,039 --> 00:15:24,120 States. So that was my mission, and I was really busy, very 170 00:15:24,159 --> 00:15:28,519 busy all the time, always behind. I always felt like I was behind, 171 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:37,240 and I felt pressure, the pressure of being behind and not being able 172 00:15:37,279 --> 00:15:41,519 to complete the whole job. That's what I felt. Kind of like I 173 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:45,039 was young then, and I remembered my college days, kind of like what 174 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:48,879 I had too much to do in college and I couldn't complete my assignments. 175 00:15:50,279 --> 00:15:56,639 I'm sure you can relate to that. Oh, absolutely, Just so it's 176 00:15:56,679 --> 00:16:02,279 about four months later then when you're captured by the Vietcong. After you are 177 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:07,759 deployed in August, and then on December second, you're captured by the Vietcong 178 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:12,720 in South Vietnam. Can you tell us about a little bit about how that 179 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:21,039 happened, What happened, what transpired? Yes, on thirty November nineteen sixty 180 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:29,080 seven, I flew up to July, which was north of where our forward 181 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:30,799 base was. But we had a group, we had people, I mean, 182 00:16:30,799 --> 00:16:34,799 we had people in my unit spread out all over South Vietnam, pilots. 183 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,320 So there were a group of pilots there and I flew up there to 184 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:44,360 give them a lecture about the dangers of ninth flying and the weather was horrible, 185 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,559 and so I asked we were supposed to take the helicopter back to our 186 00:16:48,879 --> 00:16:56,960 base of operations. And the crew was the pilot who was a dear friend 187 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:00,679 of mine, the co pilot who also was a friend the mine, and 188 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,799 the crew chief who I didn't know, who was a sergeant. So there 189 00:17:03,799 --> 00:17:07,039 were three crew members. And I said to the pilot, I said, 190 00:17:07,039 --> 00:17:10,039 this way till the weather clears, because this is terrible weather. And he 191 00:17:10,079 --> 00:17:12,319 says no, He said, our mission is not so important, but we 192 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:19,359 have to get the airplane back for operations tomorrow. And that was the wrong 193 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:26,240 decision because it was just pouring rain, I mean just absolutely thunderstorms. So 194 00:17:26,279 --> 00:17:30,880 we took off and I could see that we had crossed Highway One. I 195 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:34,400 could see truck lights on Highway One through the clouds, and I knew we 196 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:38,400 weren't supposed to cross it. We were about a twelve hundred feet altitude, 197 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:41,240 and I just radioed the pilot. I was in the back seat, and 198 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:45,640 I said, Steve, we just crossed Highway One. I don't think we're 199 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:49,559 supposed to and he said I don't think so he said, let me called 200 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:55,519 duck Foe. Duck Foe was another place that had an air traffic controller that 201 00:17:55,680 --> 00:18:00,519 had an instrument called a transponder, which allows him to find our hellic in 202 00:18:00,599 --> 00:18:03,880 the air. This is getting too complicated on trying to simplify it, but 203 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:11,319 so he called duck Foe and the operator said, I've just turned off the 204 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:15,200 trans transponder. It'll take a minute to warm up. Do you want me 205 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:19,359 to turn it on and warm up the equipment? And Steve said, Raj, 206 00:18:21,279 --> 00:18:23,720 And that was the last words he ever said. And the next thing 207 00:18:23,759 --> 00:18:33,079 I knew I was in a burning helicopter regaining consciousness, and the first that 208 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:37,759 was thirty November sixty seven. The first thing I realized was that I had 209 00:18:37,799 --> 00:18:41,720 lost a bunch of teeth. I ran my tongue over my teeth and they 210 00:18:41,759 --> 00:18:47,079 were broken and missing, and I said, is anybody alive? And I 211 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:49,599 got no answer. By the light of the fire, I could see Steve 212 00:18:49,759 --> 00:18:56,599 the pilot crushed against the instrument panel, and I tried to unhook my seat 213 00:18:56,599 --> 00:19:00,960 belt and when I did, I almost broke my neck. The airplane was 214 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:06,400 completely upside down, and my helmet was plugged into the ceiling of the helicopter 215 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:11,400 to the communication system. So I simply fell out of this burning helicopter. 216 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:18,000 And when I did, I saw the copilot on the ground, still in 217 00:19:18,079 --> 00:19:22,039 the seat, and the crew chief thrown pretty far from the helicopter. The 218 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:27,000 copilot had a broken right leg, with the bones of his tibia the lower 219 00:19:27,039 --> 00:19:32,680 part of his legs sticking through the nylon of his jungle boot, and the 220 00:19:32,759 --> 00:19:36,799 co pilot was simply unconscious. I tried. I got back on the airplane 221 00:19:36,799 --> 00:19:41,599 and tried to free steve the pilot with his knife. He had a knife 222 00:19:41,599 --> 00:19:45,000 on the right side of his body, and I took the knife and tried 223 00:19:45,039 --> 00:19:47,480 to cut his seat belt and I couldn't. It got too hot and it 224 00:19:47,519 --> 00:19:51,319 was burning. And then I jumped off the helicopter again, and at that 225 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:56,680 point I realized that my left wrist was broken and my collarbone was broken, 226 00:19:56,799 --> 00:20:03,720 and I had burned on my back and back of my legs. And then 227 00:20:03,799 --> 00:20:08,599 the airplane just burned up in a big whoosh, and we had an M 228 00:20:08,759 --> 00:20:15,319 sixty machine gun on board, and the round started exploding cooking off is the 229 00:20:15,519 --> 00:20:19,119 term, and several of those hit me in the left back, left side 230 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:26,440 of the back of the side, and then I had Steve's knife in my 231 00:20:26,519 --> 00:20:32,920 hand, and I saw the co pilots leg badly broken, so I cut 232 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:37,359 two branches of trees. We were on top of this mountain. With the 233 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:41,880 knife and with two army belts, the crew chiefs army belt and the co 234 00:20:41,039 --> 00:20:47,359 pilot's army belt. I splinted his leg, which is important to the story, 235 00:20:48,319 --> 00:20:52,680 and then we just waited. It was pouring rain, and the next 236 00:20:52,759 --> 00:20:59,240 day, at first light, which was the first of December, we sent 237 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:02,240 the crew chief for help. We thought we knew where he was. He 238 00:21:02,319 --> 00:21:06,640 never came back, and later years later, six years later, I found 239 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:11,440 out he had been shot dead and submerged in a rice paddy ten miles from 240 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:18,720 the crash site. So I sat with the copilot on the morning of December 241 00:21:18,759 --> 00:21:25,000 second. He passed away. Never complained. He was a brave young Warren 242 00:21:25,079 --> 00:21:30,799 officer, just from a very good family. And when he passed away, 243 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:38,160 I bound my left arm to my body with my army bell as a splint, 244 00:21:38,279 --> 00:21:41,799 and I started going down the mountain. The rule is you made you 245 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:47,359 stay with the aircraft, but I stayed three days and the weather had been 246 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:51,759 terrible the whole time, and I knew the helicopters couldn't see us, so 247 00:21:51,799 --> 00:21:55,480 I left. I thought I knew where I was, and I walked. 248 00:21:55,759 --> 00:21:57,920 I walked down the mountain and about two or three miles and I saw a 249 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,960 peasant working in a rice patty and he saw me, and I had of 250 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:11,079 fatigues on you with rank and a medical core symbols captain and a cadusis. 251 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:15,119 He said, diwee box sea, diwee box sea, which means captain doctor. 252 00:22:17,039 --> 00:22:18,599 And he took me about a mile away, and he gave me a 253 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:23,039 can of sweet and condensed milk, and I was eating the milk was the 254 00:22:23,079 --> 00:22:27,160 first thing I'd had to eat except for rainwater, in three days. And 255 00:22:27,279 --> 00:22:33,519 then he squad of fourteen VC came. He led them to me, and 256 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,759 that was one of the oddest events I've ever had in my life, because 257 00:22:36,799 --> 00:22:41,359 I looked up and I immediately knew there were fourteen and that one was a 258 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:48,200 woman, and I knew that there were twelve weapons. I just it was 259 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:53,440 lightning. I never had an experience like that. And the squad leader said 260 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:57,960 to me in English, surrender, no kill, and he raised both his 261 00:22:59,079 --> 00:23:02,880 arms over his head. My left arm was tied in my body. I 262 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:06,599 raised my right arm over my head and he shot me at point blank range, 263 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,799 right through the left shoulder. I mean he was about three feet from 264 00:23:10,839 --> 00:23:17,319 me. And I fell away over in the bushes in the grass, and 265 00:23:17,839 --> 00:23:23,799 they grabbed me and they that was two December sixty seven. They ripped off 266 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:30,720 my dog tags and I had a medallion on and my dad had given me 267 00:23:30,759 --> 00:23:36,480 that had a Star of David on one side and a Saint Christopher's medal on 268 00:23:36,519 --> 00:23:42,960 the other which was very precious to me. And they took that and took 269 00:23:44,039 --> 00:23:48,640 my wallet and I showed him in my wallet I had a Geneva Convention card 270 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,119 which was white with the red cross that showed that I was a medical personnel. 271 00:23:53,039 --> 00:24:00,160 And he said no pow, no pow, criminal criminal, which indicated 272 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:07,640 they didn't honor the Geneva Convention. So that was my captivity. What was 273 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:12,359 your level of physical pain like then? I would think, I mean almost 274 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:17,519 your your body almost goes numb. But to get shot then after going through 275 00:24:17,559 --> 00:24:21,599 those those three days, so I don't remember paying then, I really don't 276 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:25,920 remember pain then, interesting, I don't I don't know whether a head pain 277 00:24:26,039 --> 00:24:30,119 or not. I don't remember it. They took my boots and tied me 278 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:36,480 tightly in a duck wing position and marched me several miles until dark. They 279 00:24:36,519 --> 00:24:40,759 put me in a cave, and then the cave a young man tied me 280 00:24:40,839 --> 00:24:44,759 to a door a plank and beat me with a bamboo stick. And that 281 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:49,240 hurt. But I don't remember any pain from the shot or from the helicopter 282 00:24:49,319 --> 00:24:56,000 crash. Interesting, but endorphins maybe, I don't know, you know, 283 00:24:56,279 --> 00:25:02,079 But about two weeks it took a month to get to the camp that I 284 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:07,279 ended up in. But about two weeks later I was sick. My wound 285 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:11,279 was festering, it was full of maggots, my feet were lacerated. I 286 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:15,279 was really in bad shape, and I had some mental things going on. 287 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,440 I mean, artillery was coming in and I couldn't care less whether we got 288 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,119 blown up or not. I was just, you know, just kind of 289 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:27,839 staggering along. The thing that really did hurt, though I would at night, 290 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,720 we would walk and I couldn't see. I had no glasses. They 291 00:25:30,759 --> 00:25:37,000 would strike these little homemade cigarette lighters and see some sparks and could walk a 292 00:25:37,039 --> 00:25:40,160 few steps and they were behind me. I was in front, and they 293 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:42,880 were prodding me, and I couldn't see the sparks, and I would often 294 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:48,279 fall off the dikes of the rice paddy into the water and they would pull 295 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:52,279 me out by the wire that was binding my arms, and that hurt. 296 00:25:52,319 --> 00:25:56,799 And then I got sick. I mean I was just had fever and malaria 297 00:25:56,839 --> 00:26:03,119 and everything. They took me to a field hospital where they were wounded lying 298 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:08,920 around in hammocks and people with amputations, and this female nurse lay me through 299 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:15,799 pine on a log, on a split log, and heated up an AK 300 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:21,000 forty seven cleaning rod until it was red hot and rammed it through and through 301 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:25,279 through my wound, which was through and through in my left shoulder, and 302 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:30,839 that really hurt. It sizzled and it did it killed all the maggots and 303 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:36,799 caught her eyes the wound. But that really really hurt, and I can 304 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:42,240 feel that now. And she gave me an asper and a single aspirin tablet 305 00:26:42,279 --> 00:26:48,160 and putting a cure chrome on it. And at that point I thought, 306 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:52,400 what else didn't they do to me? But I was to find out. 307 00:26:52,839 --> 00:26:59,640 So that was that was my captivity. So I want to I want to 308 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:04,319 say one thing though, Yeah, if I may, It took a month 309 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,920 to reach my camp, and it was it was really tough. But there 310 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:15,680 was one time when, as I said, we slept in the daytime and 311 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,319 marched at night. And we were getting ready to march one dusk and we 312 00:27:19,519 --> 00:27:22,440 got up and this old man came over. We would buy a river. 313 00:27:23,079 --> 00:27:29,160 This old man came over and tried to pull my fatigue jacket off, and 314 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,440 it was muddy and bloody and full of puss and maggots and everything, and 315 00:27:33,519 --> 00:27:37,039 I was holding onto it. I didn't have any clothes. I had a 316 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:42,599 raggedy undershirt on under it. And the guards made me give it to him, 317 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,680 and I went, oh my god, I'm gonna be naked in this 318 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,960 thing. And this old man took my fatigue jacket and he took it down 319 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:55,160 to the river and he washed it and he dried it with charcoal. And 320 00:27:55,240 --> 00:28:00,960 then he came back and I had all these leeches on my legs, My 321 00:28:00,039 --> 00:28:03,680 pasts were burned off. I had all leeches and stuff on me. He 322 00:28:03,799 --> 00:28:07,200 came back and he burned the leeches off of me with a cigarette, and 323 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:11,240 he gave me my jacket bat which was still damp, but it had been 324 00:28:11,319 --> 00:28:18,599 washed. And that was It was like a an island of kindness and just 325 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:23,319 a sea of cruelty. And I will never forget that, old man, 326 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:30,480 So I wanted to bring that up. That's incredible. And what did you 327 00:28:30,519 --> 00:28:34,759 know over the course of those one nine hundred and thirty three days, it 328 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:40,519 was just an unthinkable number. What did daily life look like for you? 329 00:28:40,559 --> 00:28:45,519 And how does the time pass in under those circumstances. Well, we went 330 00:28:45,559 --> 00:28:49,519 to the first camp, and during end the first camp, twenty seven Americans 331 00:28:49,519 --> 00:28:56,319 eventually came through the camp. Five or release ten died. Daily life considered 332 00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:02,720 consisted of getting up very early in the morning. We cooked our own rice. 333 00:29:02,759 --> 00:29:04,720 They gave us some months ration of rice at a time, which we 334 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:12,079 divided, which turned out usually to be about two coffee cups a day of 335 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:18,440 rice may per man, sometimes three in the rainy season, it was two 336 00:29:18,559 --> 00:29:23,759 or less, which was four months. And we got a little bit of 337 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:30,480 this stuff they called nook mom, which is a fish sauce. A little 338 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,319 bit of that a month and that's it. And then we could supplement our 339 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:42,559 diet with whatever we could find, which wasn't much. And ten people died 340 00:29:42,599 --> 00:29:51,319 of essential starvation and protein deficiency and malaria, and we did we for wood, 341 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:55,720 We cooked with wood. We built hooches, We did slave labor. 342 00:29:55,839 --> 00:30:00,680 We carried rice for them. We built bomb shelters for the them. We 343 00:30:00,799 --> 00:30:08,119 built hootoos and carried elephant grass for them. That was essentially our daily life. 344 00:30:08,119 --> 00:30:11,839 We went to bed. There was no electricity, of course, or 345 00:30:11,839 --> 00:30:14,680 plumbing. We were in the jungle. We went to bed when it got 346 00:30:14,799 --> 00:30:18,200 dark. We got up with at four o'clock in the morning to cook rice. 347 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:23,079 We cooked twice a day, and they taught us how to build ovens 348 00:30:23,119 --> 00:30:29,640 of mud so that and chimneys underground so that the smoke and the fire could 349 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:36,680 not be seen by aeroplanes. So it was rough. It was really rough, 350 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:38,960 and most of the time we had no food, no clothing, no 351 00:30:40,079 --> 00:30:48,440 shoes, no blankets, very little medicine, hardly any medicine. I taught 352 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:56,200 our people to fake malaria so that to fake chills and fever so we could 353 00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:00,119 get quinine when they would give it to us, and hoard it so we 354 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:04,720 did get sick, we could take it. And we had some rusty razor 355 00:31:04,759 --> 00:31:07,160 blades. I mean, we never shaved, we never cut our hair, 356 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:14,240 we never had anything. We were barefoot for over two years. When Hoti 357 00:31:14,359 --> 00:31:18,400 men died, the treatment improved a little bit. They gave us sandals, 358 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:23,240 and they gave us a pair of black pajamas, and we had once in 359 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:29,160 a while get a little soap. We would bathe in the river, which 360 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:32,680 was cold. We were in the mountains. It was really it was rough. 361 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:37,039 It was it was tough, and it was so tough that we tried 362 00:31:37,039 --> 00:31:44,279 to kill the camp commander's cat and eat it and got severely punished for that. 363 00:31:45,599 --> 00:31:48,200 We did manage to get the cat killed, but didn't get to eat 364 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:52,319 it, and so we were like we were there in the jungle for three 365 00:31:52,319 --> 00:31:57,960 and a half years. We had ten deaths. There were twelve survivors and 366 00:31:59,039 --> 00:32:02,799 by the way, West German nurses were captured, three female, two male. 367 00:32:04,839 --> 00:32:10,440 Three of them died within two months and they moved them to North Vietnam 368 00:32:10,599 --> 00:32:15,839 early. They were in an organization called the Knights of Malta, which is 369 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:22,319 a Red Cross type neutral organization. They were there to just help everybody and 370 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:27,200 they were having a picnic outside of Denang, which wasn't very bright, and 371 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:31,000 there were five Caucasians in the vietcag who didn't speak German or English. Picked 372 00:32:31,039 --> 00:32:36,960 them up because they were Caucasoid, and by the time they got them to 373 00:32:37,039 --> 00:32:40,039 our camp, which was less than a month, one had died. In 374 00:32:40,119 --> 00:32:44,519 another month two more died, so then they couldn't release them. I think 375 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:51,440 that's my own interpretation of what happened. I was just ask how cut off 376 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,400 from the outside world is that's interesting? People as people must have come in, 377 00:32:54,599 --> 00:32:58,599 maybe you heard bits and pieces of what had happened since you were capturing, 378 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,119 but you know they made as people came in, we heard like we 379 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:08,160 heard about the moon landing. There was gonna happen wow. And a fellow 380 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:13,599 named jose anzel Duo who was captured in nineteen seventy told us about the moon 381 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,960 landing. I couldn't believe it, and of course the Vietnamese only told us 382 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:27,039 bad stuff. Martin Luther King assassinated, Bobby Kennedy assassinated. My son was 383 00:33:27,119 --> 00:33:30,119 born in April of sixty eight. I never knew he was born, never 384 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:34,799 knew he was a son, never knew anything until very shortly before his fifth 385 00:33:34,839 --> 00:33:40,720 birthday. What did your family know about your status? So they know they 386 00:33:40,759 --> 00:33:46,079 thought I'd been captured because when they found the body of the co pilot, 387 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:52,079 they said he had been professionally splinted and assumed I had done it. Remember 388 00:33:52,119 --> 00:33:55,920 I told you I put splints on him, and they assumed I had done 389 00:33:55,920 --> 00:34:01,400 it, and thus I was not dead, not seriously hurt, but I 390 00:34:01,519 --> 00:34:07,960 was pretty seriously hurt. And then they didn't hear again about me until November 391 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:14,920 sixty nine when three men were released and they heard that I was alive. 392 00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:22,119 And then they didn't hear again until shortly before we went home. But I 393 00:34:22,159 --> 00:34:28,360 found out I'd like to get this out there too. Yeah, my wife 394 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,840 at the time, we were subsequently divorced and she passed away. But my 395 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:38,719 wife at the time tried to send me medical equipment through the Cambodian embassy so 396 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:45,719 that I could take care of other people. And the Army, which they 397 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:52,480 say is a cold place, tried hundreds of times to send me medical equipment, 398 00:34:52,679 --> 00:34:58,599 which is in some Swedish or Swiss or neutral embassy somewhere or in North 399 00:34:58,679 --> 00:35:04,480 Vietnam. And the Army, the US Army sent me hundreds of pairs of 400 00:35:04,559 --> 00:35:13,320 glasses through neutral embassies, none of which I ever received. So I don't 401 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:17,599 think the Army is as cold to place as some people would think. But 402 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:29,199 in February of nineteen seventy one, after twelve people had died, I'm sorry. 403 00:35:29,199 --> 00:35:32,119 After ten people had died in twelve were living. They decided to move 404 00:35:32,199 --> 00:35:37,239 us to North Vietnam, and they divided us into two groups, six and 405 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:43,800 six fast and slow. I was in the fast group and we walked most 406 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,440 of the way to North. We walked to North Vietnam to a railroad terminus 407 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:55,159 called then Vnh and it was nine hundred kilometers which is five hundred and forty 408 00:35:55,159 --> 00:36:00,519 miles. It took us fifty seven days and they put us on the train 409 00:36:00,599 --> 00:36:05,199 and then and we went to Hanoi on the train one hundred and eighty miles 410 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:09,440 and it took like eighteen hours on the train. And the slow group took 411 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:15,920 one hundred and eighty days and we got to North Vietnam. We got the 412 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:21,079 sixth Fast got to North Vietnam in April of seventy one, so the trek 413 00:36:21,159 --> 00:36:24,400 took from February to April. And we were put in a prison in Hanoi 414 00:36:24,519 --> 00:36:30,519 called we called it the Plantation. It was called the Citadel, and it 415 00:36:30,679 --> 00:36:35,920 was a cell and I hardly remember the first months I was in there because 416 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,079 I had malaria so badly. I remember they weighed me one of that was 417 00:36:39,119 --> 00:36:49,400 the only time I was weighed, and I weighed forty four kilo, which 418 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:57,280 is like one hundred pounds one hundred six pounds or something, and eventually ended 419 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,199 up in a cell with five other officers. Were six people in a cell. 420 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:06,400 They divided me from my group who were all enlisted, and I lived 421 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,639 with six officers. We were in a cell. The cell had wooden palettes. 422 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:15,039 We got fed twice a day identical meals of what they called pumpkin soup. 423 00:37:15,079 --> 00:37:20,800 It was really melon soup, thin melon soup, a little piece of 424 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:25,840 bread there was about three inches long, two cups of hot water. That 425 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,320 was it. And we got no letters, no books, no communication, 426 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:37,440 no nothing. And we listened to propaganda radio and they played anti war music 427 00:37:37,519 --> 00:37:42,039 on the speaker, and there was a light bulb on twenty four to seven, 428 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,800 and when people like Jane Fonda or Pete Seeger came to North Vietnam, 429 00:37:46,039 --> 00:37:52,719 they spoke to us over the speakers over the camp radio, and that was 430 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:58,119 it. We got out like twice a week to bathe in a well and 431 00:37:58,199 --> 00:38:00,159 we had a latrine bucket. We had a bucket in the room that was 432 00:38:00,199 --> 00:38:05,519 a latrine, and one man got out once a day just to go empty 433 00:38:05,519 --> 00:38:10,280 the bucket and a cess put a cess pit and bring it back. And 434 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:20,239 we rotated that. And then finally in December seventy two, Operation Lineback or 435 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:24,400 two BE fifty two's bombed the smith of Reens out of Hanoi, and I 436 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:29,480 think they bombed for eleven days. And then they moved us to the Hanoi 437 00:38:29,639 --> 00:38:36,159 Hilton, which was only a short truck rode away. They put blindfolds and 438 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,760 shackles on us and wrote us around for four hours at night. Of course, 439 00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:45,320 we lifted our blindfolds and we could see we weren't going anywhere. They 440 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:49,079 rode us around and then took us to the Hilton and they opened the camp 441 00:38:49,199 --> 00:38:52,320 up then and we all got to see each other. Before that, we 442 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:54,199 were in our cell. We couldn't speak to anyone out of the cell, 443 00:38:54,599 --> 00:38:59,239 and if you did, if you tried to, you got beaten or tortured. 444 00:39:00,639 --> 00:39:07,079 And we had in the plantation we had a senior ranking officer, his 445 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:12,280 name was Lieutenant Colonel Ted Guy, who was Air Force, and he tried 446 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:15,239 to We had a code that we could tapple the wall and transmit information, 447 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:21,480 and he tried very hard to lead us by that tap code through the walls, 448 00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:23,880 and every time he got caught, he got tortured, and they would 449 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:30,360 put him on the radio and he would tell us to cooperate and collaborate and 450 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:36,760 to stop talking. But you could tell by his inflection and his poor grammar, 451 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:40,360 and he was an educated man that he was being forced tortured to say 452 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:46,000 it, and he would say little sarcastic things. And Colonel Guy was just 453 00:39:46,039 --> 00:39:52,840 a hell of a person. We called him Moses. He was really inspirational 454 00:39:52,639 --> 00:40:00,360 and he led us. So we stayed in the Hilton until the war was 455 00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:05,800 over. Peaceful Signed January twenty seven, seventy three, I was released. 456 00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:09,840 We were released in groups, and I was released March sixteen, and Colonel 457 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:19,400 Guy was in my release group and they took us to the airport the day 458 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,119 before we released. They led a Swedish Red Cross guy in. That was 459 00:40:22,159 --> 00:40:25,920 the only time we ever saw a Red Cross person the day before release, 460 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:32,719 and they took us to the airport and a bus and in the airport, 461 00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:38,599 Colonel Guy lined us all up. We had They had given us these release 462 00:40:38,679 --> 00:40:43,719 suits. It was a windbreaker, a little short sleeved shirt, a pair 463 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:49,559 of blue pants and a pair of cheap leather shoes and a little bag like 464 00:40:49,599 --> 00:40:53,480 an overnight bag of jim bag, a wallbag. Colonel Guy lined us all 465 00:40:53,559 --> 00:40:57,280 up and he said on every man to hold his a wall bag in his 466 00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:00,559 left hand. I want you to turn your shirt tail in. I want 467 00:41:00,599 --> 00:41:05,000 you to zip your unzip your windbreaker one third of the way down. And 468 00:41:05,079 --> 00:41:08,599 when you walk out, I want you to walk out with dignity and honor 469 00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:15,119 and like soldiers. He had been captured just as long as I had, 470 00:41:15,199 --> 00:41:19,920 five and a half years. And it was the most powerful speech I've ever 471 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:25,039 heard in my life. And it didn't work out that way they called out 472 00:41:25,079 --> 00:41:32,320 individually, but it was. It was really a powerful reminder, and I'll 473 00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:38,400 never get over it. What was it like seeing your family? What was 474 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:45,440 it like learning about everything that had happened while you were in captivity and sort 475 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:51,039 of catching up to life outside captivity, readjusting to normal life. What was 476 00:41:51,079 --> 00:41:55,880 that much trouble when they put us on an airplane. I when I walked 477 00:41:55,920 --> 00:42:00,800 out, and you know, I was greeted by this UH Air Force brigadier 478 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:08,679 general. And I saw this guy there and he actually had meat on him, 479 00:42:08,679 --> 00:42:14,159 He had breadth, he was thick, and he had a beautiful tunic 480 00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:20,840 was emblazing with real ribbons. And I went out and I saluted him. 481 00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,800 After all, this was a military courtesy, had been denied us for over 482 00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:30,519 five years. And he said, he said, welcome home, Major Kushner. 483 00:42:30,519 --> 00:42:35,719 And I'd been promoted. I didn't even know it. And he shook 484 00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:37,159 hands. He returned to salute. He shook hands with me, and then 485 00:42:37,159 --> 00:42:43,800 he hugged me, and he was crying, and so was I. And 486 00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:49,760 then they put me on this one forty one airplane and they gave each man 487 00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:53,280 a folder and it was individually tailored and told us what had happened, you 488 00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:58,360 know, if your parents were still alive, if your wife was still married 489 00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,719 to you, who had won the World Series, the Super Bowls, things 490 00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:05,679 like that. And so we read these folders, and we got on this 491 00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,599 airplane and they had a soda fountain on it and they would give you ice 492 00:43:08,639 --> 00:43:15,000 cream soda if you wanted it or whatever. And I think they were passing 493 00:43:15,039 --> 00:43:19,480 out cigars. And they had these beautiful flight nurses. All the flight nurses 494 00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:22,840 were, you know, like sixty tall, and they were gorgeous, and 495 00:43:22,559 --> 00:43:28,039 I'm sure they were selected. And we went to the Philippines, and then 496 00:43:28,039 --> 00:43:30,639 the Philippines we were allowed to call our families. It was set up, 497 00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:36,639 there was an appointment, so I called my family. I talked to my 498 00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:44,119 wife, my children, my dad and mom, and they kept us in 499 00:43:44,199 --> 00:43:46,960 the Philippines for about three days. Then we stopped in Hawaii for a day, 500 00:43:49,039 --> 00:43:52,599 and then they flew us to a hospital closest to our home of record, 501 00:43:52,039 --> 00:43:57,519 which if my case was Valley Forge, Pennsylvania, because my home of 502 00:43:57,599 --> 00:44:00,400 record was Danville, Virginia, and I was in the hospital there when I 503 00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:05,599 got off the helicopter. There my parents and my wife and children were there, 504 00:44:07,559 --> 00:44:12,719 and that was very personal, and there are some things I cared not 505 00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:17,559 to say about that, meeting my wife for the first time, but with 506 00:44:17,639 --> 00:44:22,920 my children, it was wonderful. Mown parents, and then my wife and 507 00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:30,639 I grew together. We got divorced eleven years later, probably unrelated and who 508 00:44:30,679 --> 00:44:37,280 knows to that experience, I don't know. Certainly changed us both, but 509 00:44:37,079 --> 00:44:42,199 I didn't. People doctors from all over the country wrote me and sent me 510 00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:45,320 letters and books, and there everybody was just so wonderful. You know. 511 00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:49,159 We hear a lot about how the veterans were treated when they came home in 512 00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:53,639 Vietnam, I certainly didn't have that experience. My hometown gave me a car 513 00:44:57,679 --> 00:45:00,880 and I would go out to my I was in in and out of the 514 00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:05,880 hospital for four months. I had four surgeries. I would go out to 515 00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:07,920 my mailbox at home. It would be stuffed full of stakes, with no 516 00:45:08,039 --> 00:45:15,079 note or anything. It was just a wonderful experience that I could never ever 517 00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:25,280 be grateful enough for. And so after four months, my children who had 518 00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:30,320 been raised for the who my parents had helped raise them a lot, and 519 00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:34,519 they were my children. My son Michael was five, my daughter Tony Jean 520 00:45:35,039 --> 00:45:38,119 was nine and a half. She's fifty nine and a half now, and 521 00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:45,039 Michael is fifty five now. But they were very very close to my parents. 522 00:45:45,679 --> 00:45:49,440 And so when I got out of the hospital and it was time to 523 00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:54,440 go to my next duty station in July of seventy three, they didn't really 524 00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:58,679 you know, my son started crying. I said, why are you crying? 525 00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:00,360 And he said, why am I cry? And I'm leaving my Grandpa 526 00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:07,559 Bob, and so, you know, I was like an intruder into his 527 00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:12,960 life, a new guy. And my daughter remembered me. She was three 528 00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:16,920 and a half when I had left, but my son didn't, and so 529 00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:22,880 that was an adjustment. And the wife she had, she had, I 530 00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:27,159 think she changed more than I did. Actually, Women's Live happened, all 531 00:46:27,159 --> 00:46:30,079 this stuff happened, She got involved in the politics of it. She enjoyed 532 00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:36,800 not the fact that I was gone, but she enjoyed being on television, 533 00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:43,559 and she second did George McGovern's nomination, and she enjoyed traveling, and so 534 00:46:43,639 --> 00:46:47,719 she had a different When I went to Vietnam, she wanted four kids, 535 00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:51,599 a station wagon and a white pick of tense, And when I came home, 536 00:46:51,679 --> 00:46:54,679 that's not what she wanted. So it was very different. The culture 537 00:46:54,760 --> 00:47:00,039 was totally different. I watched television in the hospital and I I couldn't believe 538 00:47:00,079 --> 00:47:05,559 the language on television. You know. I left when Asie and Herod were 539 00:47:05,559 --> 00:47:08,920 sleeping in separate bids, and when I came back it was different. It 540 00:47:09,039 --> 00:47:14,360 was they had R rated movies. Yeah. I was actually going to ask 541 00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:20,599 about that next, because you were talking earlier about the attitude that so many 542 00:47:20,599 --> 00:47:24,119 people in the country had as young men like yourself were enlisting in Vietnam, 543 00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:31,800 about service, about small our republican service and patriotism and some changes happened really 544 00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:37,000 quickly. It sounds like actually while you were in captivity. But absolutely it 545 00:47:37,079 --> 00:47:43,000 was a huge cultural change in so many aspects and dress, in speech, 546 00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:52,800 in habits, in attitude toward their government. And it has persisted to this 547 00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:57,320 day, I think, much to the detriment of our country. Yeah, 548 00:47:57,320 --> 00:47:59,239 I was going to say, I mean, if you fast forward to now, 549 00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:05,760 it's it's it's even more accelerated the rapid changes that have happened, although 550 00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:09,880 still you know, within a couple of generations time. And so looking back 551 00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:14,119 and I agree with you completely, what is that? What is that? 552 00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:16,840 What is that? Like? I mean, looking looking at the military today, 553 00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:20,960 how hard it is for them to recruit. Why do you think that 554 00:48:21,159 --> 00:48:29,639 is? I think people have a different attitude towards their country. And there's 555 00:48:29,679 --> 00:48:34,320 been just such uphevil with this COVID thing, you know, and people were 556 00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:37,760 just who were getting checks and getting money. Nobody's working. People have trouble 557 00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:44,639 finding staffing and restaurants. And I'm still working. I have a medical office 558 00:48:45,519 --> 00:48:50,880 and we have you know, it's not as steady though as it used to 559 00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:57,599 be. There's just been this tremendous social change. I hope these things go 560 00:48:57,639 --> 00:49:00,280 in cycles. You know. You read about the roaring on a in the 561 00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:05,119 time before War One and the Civil War, and then things kind of the 562 00:49:05,119 --> 00:49:08,760 pendulum swings back, and I hope that it will there will be a reaction 563 00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:13,000 to it. I wish we would impose the draft again. I think we 564 00:49:13,039 --> 00:49:17,119 should. As I said before, I believe in universal service. And when 565 00:49:17,119 --> 00:49:22,840 you celebrate Memorial Day with all of these experiences and memories, what does it 566 00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:29,320 mean to you? Oh my god, what a question I think a Memorial 567 00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:36,840 Day. I'm writing a talk now that I'm giving the keynote speech at Gettysburg 568 00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:43,800 National Cemetery or Memorial Day, and I am writing that talk now, and 569 00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:49,800 I think of Memorial Day with first of all, great sadness and a great 570 00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:57,760 sense of loss, not only the loss of our young people, young soldiers 571 00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:04,519 who died in wars, but the contributions they these millions could have made to 572 00:50:04,599 --> 00:50:10,639 our country had they lived. And so I think we've lost on two counts, 573 00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:16,880 lost the youth, and lost the men, the older men or women 574 00:50:17,559 --> 00:50:25,159 they would have become, and their contributions because they were a remarkable breed. 575 00:50:30,079 --> 00:50:35,239 How Kusher, is there anything else you think people should know about about your 576 00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:38,920 experience about the country, about how things have changed. As we wrap up 577 00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:44,639 this episode, No, I think we covered it. I think I talked 578 00:50:44,679 --> 00:50:46,800 too much and didn't let you talk about No, no, no, you 579 00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:52,719 got me going. I was on the truely hang on every word because you 580 00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:55,880 have lived a remarkable life and you've given back so much too. You've done 581 00:50:55,960 --> 00:51:02,159 medical missions. I have to imagine that is inspired by your own experience too. 582 00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:07,960 Well. Quite frankly, I have done medical missions all over the world 583 00:51:07,039 --> 00:51:13,039 and been to Africa a couple of times, India three times, Dominican Republic, 584 00:51:13,079 --> 00:51:19,960 Haiti, Peru, and Turkey, and they're very fulfilling for the person 585 00:51:20,079 --> 00:51:27,000 doing that. For me is extremely fulfilling. It's really it's wonderful to help 586 00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:31,559 people who really is when it's very helpful to me. I think I gave 587 00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:37,559 more than the than what I gave on those medical missions. And you're you're 588 00:51:37,559 --> 00:51:43,480 out at the Nixon Library, if I'm understanding it correctly right now, in 589 00:51:43,559 --> 00:51:47,079 preparation for some of their Memorial Day recognitions this week. Right, well, 590 00:51:47,119 --> 00:51:53,039 it's not Memorial Day. It's a recreation of the dinner that President Nixon gave 591 00:51:53,159 --> 00:51:58,719 to welcome home the prisoners of War on May twenty fifth, nineteen seventy three. 592 00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:02,119 I've been to be around Memorial that's actually the time of wars out there 593 00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:08,320 exactly exactly, So that'll be tonight, and I am right now sitting in 594 00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:16,920 my hotel room getting ready to get my tuxedo out to go to that amazing 595 00:52:17,559 --> 00:52:24,079 Hal Kushner. Thank you so much for joining us, Emily. Thank you 596 00:52:24,079 --> 00:52:28,679 you're a very good interviewer, and I hope I didn't talk too much. 597 00:52:29,079 --> 00:52:32,960 No, it was wonderful and fascinating and we appreciate it immensely. Thank you 598 00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:37,559 so much. Thank you. Bye bye. Now you've been listening to another 599 00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:43,000 edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Jasinski, culture editor here at 600 00:52:43,039 --> 00:52:46,239 the Federalist. We will be back soon with more. Until then, be 601 00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:49,920 lovers of freedom and anxious for the frame.