You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas.
I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now
trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other
victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway
murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together
with Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a
researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social
media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner
in crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly
and I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined again today by profilers Jim fitz Fitzgerald
and doctor Ray Carr here to answer some listener questions about profiling and the Colonial
Parkway murders. Fitz and Ray, thanks for joining us again. So one
of the biggest questions that everybody seems to be asking right at the moment is
whether or not Wilmer had an accomplice, and Fitz, you said that it
tends to be very rare for I really like your term apex predators. I'm
going to use that for a little bit. You said, it's pretty rare
for an apex predator to have an accomplice. However, and this is a
listener question, by the way, from our listener David, who asks us
many questions. Many times during the day. He would ask me, David,
I did I'm check us out on cald Red. We'll answer your questions
too. David wants to know, hypothetically, if there was an accomplice in
these cases, how would their behavior have changed during all these years? Would
accomplice behavior have changed since the death of Alan Wade Wilmer Senior. It's a
big hypothetical, it really is. It really is. Look if you want
an answer to a question like that, and Jimmy might remember this case.
She was from up in Toronto, the Bernardo Colca I think her name was
I think her name was Coca. It was a husband and wife team.
Yeah, I know you're talking about Yeah, and look at the behavior has
it changed with her? He actually used her to come in and get involved
in that and the first victim was actually her sister, and then he would
use her to groom others to do that. But to give David a fair
response to that question, it's rather difficult to be able to pinpoint how someone's
behavior would change hypothetically because there's too many factors that would be present or not
present that would have an effect on that behavior. To me, what I
would always say is, if the evidence shows that there's more than one offender
to a crime, then you go with it. Otherwise, you go with
the percentages and assume it's not it's only one person. But then if you
would say, then as Profather is writing a report, you'd word it in
a certain way if there was a second offender, that would be the base
male. The alpha male in this case will be Wilmer, because we obviously
know he's done other murders. I guess we don't know for a fact he's
done them on his own, but there's no evidence pointing otherwise. Certainly,
with this architect woman and her boyfriend back in the day, there was only
one person at the scene of the car, and I'm sure there's other information
coming out with just indicating a loan offender, but invariably when there are more
than one offender, it's an alpha male and a beta male and there's one
in charge and maybe a woman. It's very rare. But yeah, there
is that Canadian case. In fact, we when I have Greg McCrary on
Cold Red in a few weeks. He played a big role in that case,
helping the Canadian authorities put the profile together. And so it's the rarest
of the rare. But every once in a while you'll find someone bringing in
a partner or a colleague of some sort. But I don't see it in
this case. And until evidence goes otherwise, I think we can rest assured
that Wilmer was a lone wolf, as they like to say. Here's another
one from Carla. Carla asks, haven't I heard on an episode of Criminal
Minds that associopath can pass a polygraph depends on the polygapher ist. Okay,
some polygraphers are not very good and others are very good. I don't know
that to be true, and I think if you'd asked any poligrapher, they
would tell you it's not. Yeah, and the best part of a polygraph
is the pre test interview and the post test interview. And we don't have
to get into the weeds on that neither of us is a polygrapher. Year.
I don't think you are ray as you kept it on that I lie
to you. There are some things I hide from you, but that's not
one of them. Because I lie to you all the time and you don't
pick up on it. You tell these two guys have been friends for years,
working together. That's terrible. Those listeners, that's terrible. Jim.
Anyway, I was just lying. Now I feel like a wife. We're
not going to go there. We're not going to go there. It's very
close or anyone else who may be listening. But just to wrap up the
polygraph part, Yeah, people can beat it. I'm convinced. I've watched
people take polygraphs live with a camera or a one way mirror, and I'm
convinced that the guy is lying. But somehow the needles are just not gyrating
the way they should, and the operator has to officially say they passed.
It's yeah, it can be compromised. Psychopath is A sociopath are so good
at lying that they can actually believe what they're saying, even in one part
of their brain knows that's alive, and that can throw off your your autonomic
responses, your physiological responses. I should say, don't react how it would
to one of us telling a lie, a quote unquote normal person telling a
lie. So I'm glad the person is quoting Criminal Mind because I wasn't advisor
on that show for a number of years, and I'm not sure that was
one of my episodes or not. But for the writer's sake, I will
say, yeah, every once in a while, a psychopath high on that
scale, he probably could pass if it was only an average poligrapher or less.
One of the reasons that we asked is that it has come out that
Alan Wade Wilmer, Sr. Was polygraphed in this examination. He did pass
that polygraph and as a result of that past he was allowed to continue on
with his life. And as a result of that, Teresa Hall was murdered
in nineteen eighty nine after he passed that polygraph and was taken off the FBI's
radar. So that's why we're asking about polygraphs. We know that to be
sure that is factual, that is true. He was given polygraph by a
gentleman. I'll leave his name out of this conversation, who was considered one
of the top oligraphers at the FBI. He did all the spy cases.
There were a lot of high profile spy cases broken, particularly in Norfolk,
Virginia, with the Navy, Military, CIA, etc. All Being there,
there were a number of big busts of spies, and this guy did
those cases. I actually think there may have been too much deference given to
this particular polygraphic examiner. I think they might have actually put too much weight
into what he said. The sac IRV. Wells, the special agent in
charge of that Norfolk office, who passed away a couple of years ago,
and he spoke to me about this story directly. And my father told me
this same story in nineteen eighty eight when it happened. Because my dad was
in constant contact with the investigators in Kathy and Becky's murder, and then as
the Colonial Parkerly murders continued, they spoke to my dad regularly. The polygraph
story did happen, and they did let Wilmer go, and they had Wilmer
and a second man unnamed to us, both given polygraphic exams and they were
both permitted to go on their way. And Alan Wade Wilmer Senior went right
back to killing people. He killed confirmed now, Teresa Howell the next year.
He would have been polygraphed in mid nineteen eighty eight, and by June
nineteen eighty nine he's back to murdering people. Now you know why polygraph is
not admissible in courts as evidence. You can get false positives, you can
get false negatives, and it's a great tool. If he was right.
And I don't know everything that you say here, and I'm not denying your
version of the story, Bill, I'm sure that's what it is. But
let me ask you this. You mentioned that two guys were polygraphed, correct.
Was there any alleged linkage between Wilmer and this other person? We're not
sure who the second person was. Sometimes they've mentioned his brother as a potential
suspect, although he's not been arrested or anything like that. He's not been
named, but that suspicion exists. Could have been his brother. That is
not specified in the versions of the story that we've been told. IRV Wells,
who confirmed the story that my father had told me back in nineteen eighty
eight. He quoted himself and said there was a lot of concern because they
thought they'd identified the cloning Parkway killer, as they called him, and then
they were really disappointed, obviously with the polygraph test results. Wells said to
the examiner, you better f and be right, because they were rock solid
and some very highly regarded and experienced case agents, including people that my father
knew when we certainly knew their names at my family's dining room table, because
my father would say, I spoke to agents Owemed today in his beautiful voice,
and my dad and I had an agreement whenever he spoke to the FBI,
he would call me or we'd find a quiet corner of the house so
is to not upset my mother, and he would tell me what the agents
had told him. In the latest conversation. One of the things that we're
struggling with is the fact that so many highly respected case agents who worked this
case for years were certain they had the right guy, and then they got
overturned or out voted or I don't know how it works, but they put
these guys aside, and actually those agents were right. Wilmer was the guy.
I'm taking back a little bit that the FBI was a lead agency in
this because, to the best of my knowledge, capital murder was not something
the FBI was involved in. And I have to ask the other question,
Bill, is what information was available to the police and the agents that led
them to polygraph Wilma in the first place. And why would you walk away
if you had information that was solid enough to get you to a point to
polygraph someone. Why would you let one polygraph be the difference? Because we
knew and I knew, and as Jim mentioned, although a polygraph wasn't admissible,
it was just an investigative tool, and just because it came up negative
didn't mean that what we had, what we also had evidentiary wise, wasn't
tied to this individual. So I would have to ask, well, what
else was tied that allowed them to even put them on the radar. I'll
try to do the compact version of this. When Keith calling has handed Haley
went missing on the Colonial Parkway, the FBI did a full court press.
They already had two double homicides that had already taken place. Thomas and Rebecca
Dowski had been murdered a year and a half prior on the Colonial Parkway,
and then this second couple Robin Edwards and David Nobling had been killed about a
half hour away at the Ragged Island Wildlife Refuge, which was a Virginia State
Police case because it was outside the National Park. So FBI is the lead
on Thomas Dowski. Now we have a third couple who've gone missing. Call
Haley, and now we're back on the Colonial Parkway. So the FBI takes
the lead at that time. Then they realized they had a very serious problem.
They've got two double homicides, and now they have a couple missing,
and the car is found abandoned on one of these little half moon pulloffs on
the Colonial Parkway next to the York River, in a very similar situation to
the way my sister Kathy's car was found, and it's only like a mile
and a half away. In about eighteen months prior. They are really throwing
a full court press at this thing. They book a hotel, they book
an entire hotel. It's filled with FBI agents and staff. They are working
this case hard. Of course, it's pre internet, pre cell phone,
so they use radios a lot. They develop intelligence that they are a number
of people that were on the Colonial Parkway, couples described a very unique vehicle
that was seen on the Colonial Parkway cruising from one of these half moon pull
offs to the next one to the next one. Very peculiar behavior. And
they got very good descriptions of this very distinctive, one of a kind pickup
truck, and so they're looking for that pickup truck. The guy that was
responsible for the maintenance of the radios actually heard all of the chatter with the
FBI agents getting their assignments, developing leads and that sort of thing, heard
the description of the truck. He then radios in a day or two later
and says, guys, I'm on the highway and I'm next to the truck.
You're looking for. This very distinctive blue green truck, faded riding on
the doors with a big elaborate rig on the back, which to my eye
would look like a tow truck, but is really the tongs and winches that
you use to pull crab pots and oyster traps out of the water. So
this truck is very distinctive and they've got good descriptions. The radio operator calls
in and says, I'm next to this guy on the highway. He describes
the truck. They say, that's the one we're looking for you. So
it's got unusual plates on it too. It had vanity plates E M raw
eat them raw, which of course is an off color expression as well as
an oystering joke. So now they have a plate and a couple days later,
so now we're into four days after Keith Collin Cassandra Haley have gone missing
on the Colonial Parkway. Two FBI agents roll up on this guy in his
driveway up in Lancaster, Virginia, on the northern neck of Virginia, up
on the Rappahannock River. The two agents are immediately suspicious because this guy is
in his dirt driveway using solvent and water to clean out its truck and repainting
some of the interior of the truck as well as the bed of the truck.
And this is a beater work truck. This isn't some fancy rig.
They regard this as very suspicious behavior. They ask the man questions. They
go back to their command center and discuss it with the team. They get
a search warrant. They go back to the guy's house, which he shares
with his brother, a small house that's been described as a trailer or a
small house, modest place but compact. They have a search warrant. They
find the things they're looking for, which include guns, handcuffs, and handcuffs
could be important because they believe handcuffs were used in Kathy and Becky's murder a
year and a half prior, and an extensive collection of pornography. So at
this point, this guy's checking a lot of boxes. I've been looking for
watermen since eighty six when Kathy and Becky were murdered because of the use of
rope knives and diesel fuel in that murder, not to mention handcuffs. After
they serve the search warrant, they are thinking and IRV Wells tells us this.
It's also in the book on the Colonial Parkway by Blaine Pardo and his
daughter Victoria Hester a special kind of evil. This whole story is described.
So they are absolutely convinced they found the Colonial Parkway killer. They bring him
in for the polygraphic examination that we talked about, and in the story they
say they but they don't specify who they are, but we know one of
them is Alan Wade Wilmer Senior. We're not sure who the second man is,
but the polygraphic examiner says they didn't do it and they don't know anything
about it. And that's when the sac ir of Wells responds, you better
f and be right because they were so certain it was the right guy.
We're hearing rumors from inside the investigation. Now there may have been a second
polygraphic examination and the results were inconclusive. We don't know that for a fact,
but regardless, as we understand it, they let these guys walk.
What I'm struggling with, as the brother of a murder victim, is how
in the world did the two investigators who've been handling this case for the last
fifteen years. We had one buy handling the case for five years and another
agent's been handling the case for a decade, and they were supposed to review
all of the case materials over this fifteen year period. I understand that DNA
and other forensic options were not available to us in eighty eight, but they
sure are available to us now. And somehow there is a disconnect that appears
between the case agents from back in the eighties and the case agents. Now
you're listening to mindover Murder. We'll be right back after this word from our
sponsors. We're back here at Mindover Murder now as I understand it, from
our current case agent in twenty twenty, I believe it is fall twenty twenty.
They had a meeting and she briefed three longtime case agents now retired on
the status of the case. And after a two plus hour briefing, one
of the three agents who was there, I knew two of their names from
my father, one of the three of them says, that's all well and
good, but I still like my guy. Our current agent responds, who's
your guy, and he says, Alan Wade Wilmer Senior. Here's a waterman
up on the northern Neck. He also said it may be a mood point
because he died a couple of years ago. This is twenty twenty, and
Wilmer had died in December twenty seventeen. Here it is all these years later,
and he says, that's all well and good, but I still like
my guy, Alan Wade Wilmer Senior. One of those heartbreaking situations where I
feel like the agents were so close, and then a polygraph examination seemed to
push aside all the other evidence they had. Here's the thing, though,
I find that very interesting. Before the polygraph, there's a search warrant,
and the bar in the federal system in order to get a search warrant,
I'm over my career probably was he afiant in anywhere between seventy five and a
hundred search warrants. The amount of information that needs to be there in order
to get into someone's own to search it is pretty extensive. So I'm thinking
that there's quite a bit of information that this agent had that he felt very
comfortable with no matter what. Because look at it this way. How many
times a Jim can attest to this, how many times have we locked somebody
up after we've searched our place and said, hey, did you do this?
Doesn't matter what the crime is, and they say, I don't know
anything about it. Yet we know based upon the evidence that these guys are
this guy is a guy that did this right based upon all the other evidence.
So I find it hard to believe that just because he passed a polygraph
that they said, hey, the heck with this is not m I just
I find that hard to swallow because I know that in the cases that I
worked, in the cases that I supervised with other people that would never ever
happen. We would never dismiss something like that when there was other pointers that
were looking at this case. I just if that happened, I'm very disappointed.
If that happened, I'm extremely disappointed because that should have never happened,
not with our agency, not with any agency for that matter, that should
have never happen. Would say it better than ready. We find ourselves baffled,
and we can only tell you what we've been told. This so called
driveway story as I refer to it, because of the two agents going up
and meeting with this man and questioning him, and then the search foreign and
the polygraph. This has come to us from multiple sources, including the SAC
who was in charge of the Kathy Thomas Rebeccadowski investigation, as well as the
disappearance of Keith Collin Cassandra Haley a year and a half later, and he
he said to me, this is IRV. Wells now that the failure to
solve the Colonial Parkway murders was the biggest disappointment. And I could tell it
was a profound disappointment. In a pretty stellar thirty year career with the FBI,
agent Wells passed away two years ago now twenty twenty two, if I'm
not mistaken, I had three to four hours with him on two different occasions
when we were filming Our Lover's Lane Murders television series. He and I spent
hours together and I didn't have to set up cameras and lights and all that
stuff, so we had a lot of time to talk, and he told
me this story. Again. I definitely get what you're saying, Ray,
but that's what we're told happened. Somehow there was a disconnect that those case
agents in the early stages, who were really good, very well respected case
agents, somehow that information wasn't passed forward. Somehow. Our current case agent
said she didn't know about Wilmer until twenty twenty, and he'd already been dead
for three years by that point. It's a very frustrating and baffling situation.
How do you read tells me she didn't read the case file, because if
you go back and read the case file, how can you not know the
guy's name. I think she knew his name but didn't realize how much attention
should be paid to him. I don't know the polygraphic results should have been
in there, or some reference to it would be in the case file too,
would it not. Yeah. I look nothing against any other agency out
there, but the FBI. When we do something, there's nobody better at
doing it than we are. Not to say that we can't drop the ball.
From time to time, that happens, but in something like this,
where there's multiple victims, there's multiple agencies, it pains me to say that
not one person from any other agency said anything or had any input into this.
Something doesn't something's not right here. I would love to hear from the
case agent who said, Hey, he said in years later, after this
guy's dead, he said, I still like my guy. Well, Wilmer
Senior, I still like him. Thirty years later, I still like him.
He's making that statement. What I would love to hear his explanation about
what happened. First, I'm trying to understand, and I guess I understand
that the case of the jurisdiction of the case came into the f venue because
of the fact that there was a national park correct which was federal land.
Yeah, and that's what gave the FBI think. And actually you have federal
park rangers that usually handle those things, but they're not equipped and NORSBI does
not investigate homicides, but that doesn't mean that they're not capable of doing so.
They're very capable because a lot of FBI agents are former police officers,
right, And many of the agents I know, I don't know if you're
also a police officer previously, but many FBI agents I've met, like Jim
R, former cops themselves. Yeah, before we let you guys go,
we're going to ask you to just do one little bit of speculation. Is
one more thing? Is there any reason that you could think of why a
serial killers DNA might not be uploaded to the CODIS system if he's never been
charged with a crime, certainly a felony crime or even one involving a sexual
offense or a violent offense. That's my understanding. And there are as great
as DNA is, and part of me is saying we should have everyone's DNA
in these databases. There are certainly civil libertarians and others saying that's not necessarily
the case. It's a violation of our rights. You forego some of those
rights when you're arrested for a violent crime and a sexual crime of some sort.
The laws vary from state to state. If Wilmer had no other violent
offenses under his belt, he did us unless and back in the eighties,
he wouldn't have been voluntarily asked to provide a saliva swab because the DNA analysis
forensic DNA analysis wasn't around then, there was no reason for that. Then.
There's really no excuse nowadays if someone has one of those charges against them
to either solve future crimes or do solve of course past crimes, not to
mention the one being investigated in real time. There's really no excuse for that
now. But unless it's voluntary. I am of the school my mind has
changed a bit over the years without getting into some of the issues in our
country today, but if you're not accused of a crime, you shouldn't necessarily
have to either have stuff and taken from your body, or for that matter,
stuck into your body. And I think that's so. I understand that
part of why Wilmer's DNA was not in any sort of CODIS like database.
Just to add to what Jim said, back in the mid eighties, there
was no DNA, so there was no CODIS. There was no purpose or
reason to take a DNA SAMP because it didn't exist. To the best of
my recollection, I'm going to say two thousand and ten, two thousand and
nine, we start being mandated at anybody that's arrested. We were starting to
take swabs, and Jim was already gone from the bureau. So even when
Jim was in a bureau before he left in two thousand and seven, we
didn't even weren't taking swabs in It didn't hapen till I think two thousand and
nine, twenty ten, at the end of my tenure, when I was
getting ready to leave that they started doing that. Codas existed then, but
it was only some people where they were forced to by search warrant. In
order to take someone's DNA, I had to obtain a search warrant in order
to get that DNA. In order to get hair samples. It wasn't readily
done. Then it became a condition if you're arrested, not only are you
going to provide fingerprints, you're also going to provide a swap, And we
would do a cheek swab and send that down and that would be entered Toto
kotas. So that's probably the reason. Because twenty ten, this individual's in
his mid fifties late fifties. At that point his probably careers criminal either really
subsided or was almost over one thing I'm thinking about now. I'm not throwing
anybody under the bus, and I've had plenty of criticisms of the FBI in
the Virginia State Police over the years and quite intensively over the past few weeks,
because I don't think they were straightforward at all in this recent press conference
where they announced the identification of this offender. But putting that aside for a
second, I do think that all of us have to work together to find
a work around in a situation like this. I think an offender like Wilmer's
DNA post mortem and a man's dead, he's a confirmed serial killer. He's
killed at least three people in two separate incidents, so he meets the FBI
criteria as we understand it for what is a serial killer. I think in
a situation like this, we have to figure out legally a way that we
can put offenders like this into CODIS because I think it would help us solve
a lot of unsolved cases and provide answers for a lot of families like mine
that are looking for answers. I'm not trying to stomp all over anybody's rights,
but I feel like a lot of your rights die with you, and
I think we have to find a way. We've heard about other offenders like
this that are known serial killers, but we're not actually charged with a crime
prior to their deaths. I think post mortem we should find a way to
put those offenders into codis. I'm not don't have a legal background here,
so I don't know what the legality of that is, but I would concur
that once you're past, and if you're found to be guilty of something after
you're gone, that I think is perfectly acceptable ethically to submit that to a
database to check it against other DNA samples of unsolved crimes. I don't but
again I don't know what the legality of that is, but from an ethical
standpoint, I think it's perfectly acceptable to me. Jim, I guess the
rights of a dead person can be violated, can be constitutionally stepped on violated,
But I think if there's some sort of reasonable suspicion of some sort of
violent activity on that person's part, and we certainly have it here, that
his DNA should be no Anzi for butts put in due codis and searched against
any other act of murder and sex crime across the nation. Yeah. To
me, there's no AZIP for butts about that, so hopefully someone down the
line. I'm not sure if his estate or his family has an attorney presenting
the deceased mister Wilmer. He's not going to be defamed. I guess you
could defame a dead person. We'll have our lawyers to tell us about that,
but I'd be happy to I'm be happy to defame him. I won't
tonight, but I might in the near future. But no one's if it's
not a match, it's not a match. No, and I would never
defame there's a match. That's not defamation. That's the science linking up a
crime scene to specific offender, and that's not defamation. Only has to be
untrue. No, I'm only sticking with the true part. But look,
if they figure out if Alan Wade Wilmer Senior is responsible for the murder of
Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Dowski, yeah, I probably won't cotton much to saying
great things about him. At the same time, we know for certain he's
linked via DNA to the murder of three people and circumstantially to the disappearance of
Keith Colin Cassandra Haley. I am hoping and praying that there will be further
cases in the Colonial Parkway murders and elsewhere that will be linked to this man,
because I feel like there's a lot of families out there waiting for answers.
We can provide answers if the FBI and Virginia State Police can put a
case together against this man, even though he is deceased. I would say,
in all fairness, this has just come to light in the last couple
of weeks. Yes, and I think we need to. I think everybody
needs to give the FBI and the Virginia State Police the opportunity to do their
job and not prejudge them before they're able to do what they do. Having
worked with both of them, they're both outstanding. Work for one work with
the other. They're both outstanding institutions. And I would say, give them
the opportunity to do their job, and if they don't do their job,
then smack them around a little bit. But I think once you give them
that opportunity, I think they're going to do it. It's good advice,
Ray, and I appreciate it. And you probably also talked me off a
cliff. Yeah. Actually, honestly, Ray, I think you just did.
This is good gentlemen. I feel like I just got to take a
profiling masterclass. Thank you so much for joining us today and going through everything.
We have a ton more, of course, but we don't want to
keep you any longer. Thank you so very much. We really appreciate you
taking the time. You're welcome. Thanks for having me check us out on
Gold Red Folks. Absolutely from that is going to do it for this episode
of mind Ever Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you
next time. Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog
Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art
is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. Mind Over
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Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. Thank you for listening to Mind Over Murder