1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,640 murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together 6 00:00:24,679 --> 00:00:28,519 with Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a 7 00:00:28,559 --> 00:00:32,479 researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social 8 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:37,799 media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 9 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:44,799 in crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly 10 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:50,799 and I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined again today by profilers Jim fitz Fitzgerald 11 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:56,399 and doctor Ray Carr here to answer some listener questions about profiling and the Colonial 12 00:00:56,439 --> 00:01:00,159 Parkway murders. Fitz and Ray, thanks for joining us again. So one 13 00:01:00,159 --> 00:01:04,359 of the biggest questions that everybody seems to be asking right at the moment is 14 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:07,920 whether or not Wilmer had an accomplice, and Fitz, you said that it 15 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:12,200 tends to be very rare for I really like your term apex predators. I'm 16 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:15,799 going to use that for a little bit. You said, it's pretty rare 17 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:19,319 for an apex predator to have an accomplice. However, and this is a 18 00:01:19,359 --> 00:01:23,719 listener question, by the way, from our listener David, who asks us 19 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:27,159 many questions. Many times during the day. He would ask me, David, 20 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:30,920 I did I'm check us out on cald Red. We'll answer your questions 21 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:38,040 too. David wants to know, hypothetically, if there was an accomplice in 22 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:45,239 these cases, how would their behavior have changed during all these years? Would 23 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:51,640 accomplice behavior have changed since the death of Alan Wade Wilmer Senior. It's a 24 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:56,079 big hypothetical, it really is. It really is. Look if you want 25 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:59,959 an answer to a question like that, and Jimmy might remember this case. 26 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:04,480 She was from up in Toronto, the Bernardo Colca I think her name was 27 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:07,760 I think her name was Coca. It was a husband and wife team. 28 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:12,400 Yeah, I know you're talking about Yeah, and look at the behavior has 29 00:02:12,439 --> 00:02:16,360 it changed with her? He actually used her to come in and get involved 30 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:21,520 in that and the first victim was actually her sister, and then he would 31 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:24,680 use her to groom others to do that. But to give David a fair 32 00:02:25,199 --> 00:02:30,439 response to that question, it's rather difficult to be able to pinpoint how someone's 33 00:02:30,439 --> 00:02:37,479 behavior would change hypothetically because there's too many factors that would be present or not 34 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:40,159 present that would have an effect on that behavior. To me, what I 35 00:02:40,199 --> 00:02:45,560 would always say is, if the evidence shows that there's more than one offender 36 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:47,680 to a crime, then you go with it. Otherwise, you go with 37 00:02:47,719 --> 00:02:53,000 the percentages and assume it's not it's only one person. But then if you 38 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:54,919 would say, then as Profather is writing a report, you'd word it in 39 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:59,960 a certain way if there was a second offender, that would be the base 40 00:03:00,159 --> 00:03:02,759 male. The alpha male in this case will be Wilmer, because we obviously 41 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:07,240 know he's done other murders. I guess we don't know for a fact he's 42 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:09,639 done them on his own, but there's no evidence pointing otherwise. Certainly, 43 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:15,000 with this architect woman and her boyfriend back in the day, there was only 44 00:03:15,039 --> 00:03:17,439 one person at the scene of the car, and I'm sure there's other information 45 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:22,680 coming out with just indicating a loan offender, but invariably when there are more 46 00:03:22,719 --> 00:03:25,520 than one offender, it's an alpha male and a beta male and there's one 47 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:30,159 in charge and maybe a woman. It's very rare. But yeah, there 48 00:03:30,199 --> 00:03:32,080 is that Canadian case. In fact, we when I have Greg McCrary on 49 00:03:32,439 --> 00:03:36,280 Cold Red in a few weeks. He played a big role in that case, 50 00:03:36,319 --> 00:03:40,120 helping the Canadian authorities put the profile together. And so it's the rarest 51 00:03:40,159 --> 00:03:45,159 of the rare. But every once in a while you'll find someone bringing in 52 00:03:45,199 --> 00:03:47,199 a partner or a colleague of some sort. But I don't see it in 53 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:52,159 this case. And until evidence goes otherwise, I think we can rest assured 54 00:03:52,159 --> 00:03:54,879 that Wilmer was a lone wolf, as they like to say. Here's another 55 00:03:54,919 --> 00:04:00,879 one from Carla. Carla asks, haven't I heard on an episode of Criminal 56 00:04:00,879 --> 00:04:05,919 Minds that associopath can pass a polygraph depends on the polygapher ist. Okay, 57 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:11,639 some polygraphers are not very good and others are very good. I don't know 58 00:04:11,759 --> 00:04:14,639 that to be true, and I think if you'd asked any poligrapher, they 59 00:04:14,639 --> 00:04:16,720 would tell you it's not. Yeah, and the best part of a polygraph 60 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:21,160 is the pre test interview and the post test interview. And we don't have 61 00:04:21,199 --> 00:04:25,600 to get into the weeds on that neither of us is a polygrapher. Year. 62 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:30,040 I don't think you are ray as you kept it on that I lie 63 00:04:30,079 --> 00:04:31,680 to you. There are some things I hide from you, but that's not 64 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:33,759 one of them. Because I lie to you all the time and you don't 65 00:04:33,759 --> 00:04:39,319 pick up on it. You tell these two guys have been friends for years, 66 00:04:40,199 --> 00:04:45,120 working together. That's terrible. Those listeners, that's terrible. Jim. 67 00:04:45,399 --> 00:04:50,439 Anyway, I was just lying. Now I feel like a wife. We're 68 00:04:50,439 --> 00:04:54,920 not going to go there. We're not going to go there. It's very 69 00:04:55,160 --> 00:05:00,439 close or anyone else who may be listening. But just to wrap up the 70 00:05:00,439 --> 00:05:04,000 polygraph part, Yeah, people can beat it. I'm convinced. I've watched 71 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:09,560 people take polygraphs live with a camera or a one way mirror, and I'm 72 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:14,560 convinced that the guy is lying. But somehow the needles are just not gyrating 73 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:16,839 the way they should, and the operator has to officially say they passed. 74 00:05:17,079 --> 00:05:23,040 It's yeah, it can be compromised. Psychopath is A sociopath are so good 75 00:05:23,079 --> 00:05:28,000 at lying that they can actually believe what they're saying, even in one part 76 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,240 of their brain knows that's alive, and that can throw off your your autonomic 77 00:05:31,959 --> 00:05:38,079 responses, your physiological responses. I should say, don't react how it would 78 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:42,160 to one of us telling a lie, a quote unquote normal person telling a 79 00:05:42,199 --> 00:05:46,560 lie. So I'm glad the person is quoting Criminal Mind because I wasn't advisor 80 00:05:46,959 --> 00:05:48,560 on that show for a number of years, and I'm not sure that was 81 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,800 one of my episodes or not. But for the writer's sake, I will 82 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:56,079 say, yeah, every once in a while, a psychopath high on that 83 00:05:56,240 --> 00:06:02,079 scale, he probably could pass if it was only an average poligrapher or less. 84 00:06:02,439 --> 00:06:05,360 One of the reasons that we asked is that it has come out that 85 00:06:05,439 --> 00:06:12,000 Alan Wade Wilmer, Sr. Was polygraphed in this examination. He did pass 86 00:06:12,079 --> 00:06:16,800 that polygraph and as a result of that past he was allowed to continue on 87 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:20,759 with his life. And as a result of that, Teresa Hall was murdered 88 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:26,360 in nineteen eighty nine after he passed that polygraph and was taken off the FBI's 89 00:06:26,439 --> 00:06:30,319 radar. So that's why we're asking about polygraphs. We know that to be 90 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:35,079 sure that is factual, that is true. He was given polygraph by a 91 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:40,480 gentleman. I'll leave his name out of this conversation, who was considered one 92 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:45,560 of the top oligraphers at the FBI. He did all the spy cases. 93 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:49,680 There were a lot of high profile spy cases broken, particularly in Norfolk, 94 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:55,240 Virginia, with the Navy, Military, CIA, etc. All Being there, 95 00:06:55,319 --> 00:06:59,560 there were a number of big busts of spies, and this guy did 96 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:03,399 those cases. I actually think there may have been too much deference given to 97 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:10,040 this particular polygraphic examiner. I think they might have actually put too much weight 98 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:14,720 into what he said. The sac IRV. Wells, the special agent in 99 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:16,839 charge of that Norfolk office, who passed away a couple of years ago, 100 00:07:16,839 --> 00:07:21,079 and he spoke to me about this story directly. And my father told me 101 00:07:21,199 --> 00:07:26,040 this same story in nineteen eighty eight when it happened. Because my dad was 102 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:30,600 in constant contact with the investigators in Kathy and Becky's murder, and then as 103 00:07:30,639 --> 00:07:34,160 the Colonial Parkerly murders continued, they spoke to my dad regularly. The polygraph 104 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:39,600 story did happen, and they did let Wilmer go, and they had Wilmer 105 00:07:39,759 --> 00:07:45,360 and a second man unnamed to us, both given polygraphic exams and they were 106 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:49,199 both permitted to go on their way. And Alan Wade Wilmer Senior went right 107 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:54,680 back to killing people. He killed confirmed now, Teresa Howell the next year. 108 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:59,759 He would have been polygraphed in mid nineteen eighty eight, and by June 109 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:03,319 nineteen eighty nine he's back to murdering people. Now you know why polygraph is 110 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:07,000 not admissible in courts as evidence. You can get false positives, you can 111 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:11,439 get false negatives, and it's a great tool. If he was right. 112 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:13,519 And I don't know everything that you say here, and I'm not denying your 113 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:16,160 version of the story, Bill, I'm sure that's what it is. But 114 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:20,480 let me ask you this. You mentioned that two guys were polygraphed, correct. 115 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:24,839 Was there any alleged linkage between Wilmer and this other person? We're not 116 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:30,079 sure who the second person was. Sometimes they've mentioned his brother as a potential 117 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,799 suspect, although he's not been arrested or anything like that. He's not been 118 00:08:33,879 --> 00:08:39,639 named, but that suspicion exists. Could have been his brother. That is 119 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:43,720 not specified in the versions of the story that we've been told. IRV Wells, 120 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:48,639 who confirmed the story that my father had told me back in nineteen eighty 121 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:54,240 eight. He quoted himself and said there was a lot of concern because they 122 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:58,440 thought they'd identified the cloning Parkway killer, as they called him, and then 123 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:03,360 they were really disappointed, obviously with the polygraph test results. Wells said to 124 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:07,039 the examiner, you better f and be right, because they were rock solid 125 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:13,519 and some very highly regarded and experienced case agents, including people that my father 126 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,480 knew when we certainly knew their names at my family's dining room table, because 127 00:09:16,519 --> 00:09:20,200 my father would say, I spoke to agents Owemed today in his beautiful voice, 128 00:09:20,279 --> 00:09:24,519 and my dad and I had an agreement whenever he spoke to the FBI, 129 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:26,840 he would call me or we'd find a quiet corner of the house so 130 00:09:28,039 --> 00:09:31,120 is to not upset my mother, and he would tell me what the agents 131 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:33,799 had told him. In the latest conversation. One of the things that we're 132 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:39,200 struggling with is the fact that so many highly respected case agents who worked this 133 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:45,039 case for years were certain they had the right guy, and then they got 134 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:48,480 overturned or out voted or I don't know how it works, but they put 135 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:52,279 these guys aside, and actually those agents were right. Wilmer was the guy. 136 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:58,399 I'm taking back a little bit that the FBI was a lead agency in 137 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:03,559 this because, to the best of my knowledge, capital murder was not something 138 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:07,399 the FBI was involved in. And I have to ask the other question, 139 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:13,320 Bill, is what information was available to the police and the agents that led 140 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:18,200 them to polygraph Wilma in the first place. And why would you walk away 141 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:24,840 if you had information that was solid enough to get you to a point to 142 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:31,159 polygraph someone. Why would you let one polygraph be the difference? Because we 143 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:37,559 knew and I knew, and as Jim mentioned, although a polygraph wasn't admissible, 144 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:41,200 it was just an investigative tool, and just because it came up negative 145 00:10:41,039 --> 00:10:48,200 didn't mean that what we had, what we also had evidentiary wise, wasn't 146 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:50,480 tied to this individual. So I would have to ask, well, what 147 00:10:50,639 --> 00:10:54,519 else was tied that allowed them to even put them on the radar. I'll 148 00:10:54,559 --> 00:11:00,360 try to do the compact version of this. When Keith calling has handed Haley 149 00:11:00,399 --> 00:11:03,679 went missing on the Colonial Parkway, the FBI did a full court press. 150 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:09,639 They already had two double homicides that had already taken place. Thomas and Rebecca 151 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:13,240 Dowski had been murdered a year and a half prior on the Colonial Parkway, 152 00:11:13,399 --> 00:11:18,600 and then this second couple Robin Edwards and David Nobling had been killed about a 153 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:22,559 half hour away at the Ragged Island Wildlife Refuge, which was a Virginia State 154 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:26,519 Police case because it was outside the National Park. So FBI is the lead 155 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:31,039 on Thomas Dowski. Now we have a third couple who've gone missing. Call 156 00:11:31,159 --> 00:11:35,039 Haley, and now we're back on the Colonial Parkway. So the FBI takes 157 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:39,679 the lead at that time. Then they realized they had a very serious problem. 158 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:43,759 They've got two double homicides, and now they have a couple missing, 159 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:48,559 and the car is found abandoned on one of these little half moon pulloffs on 160 00:11:48,639 --> 00:11:52,799 the Colonial Parkway next to the York River, in a very similar situation to 161 00:11:52,879 --> 00:11:56,440 the way my sister Kathy's car was found, and it's only like a mile 162 00:11:56,519 --> 00:12:01,120 and a half away. In about eighteen months prior. They are really throwing 163 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:05,559 a full court press at this thing. They book a hotel, they book 164 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:09,200 an entire hotel. It's filled with FBI agents and staff. They are working 165 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:13,440 this case hard. Of course, it's pre internet, pre cell phone, 166 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:18,320 so they use radios a lot. They develop intelligence that they are a number 167 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:22,240 of people that were on the Colonial Parkway, couples described a very unique vehicle 168 00:12:22,519 --> 00:12:26,440 that was seen on the Colonial Parkway cruising from one of these half moon pull 169 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:30,919 offs to the next one to the next one. Very peculiar behavior. And 170 00:12:31,039 --> 00:12:35,200 they got very good descriptions of this very distinctive, one of a kind pickup 171 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:39,200 truck, and so they're looking for that pickup truck. The guy that was 172 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:46,200 responsible for the maintenance of the radios actually heard all of the chatter with the 173 00:12:46,279 --> 00:12:50,639 FBI agents getting their assignments, developing leads and that sort of thing, heard 174 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:54,120 the description of the truck. He then radios in a day or two later 175 00:12:54,279 --> 00:12:58,879 and says, guys, I'm on the highway and I'm next to the truck. 176 00:13:00,159 --> 00:13:05,120 You're looking for. This very distinctive blue green truck, faded riding on 177 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:07,879 the doors with a big elaborate rig on the back, which to my eye 178 00:13:07,919 --> 00:13:13,120 would look like a tow truck, but is really the tongs and winches that 179 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:18,159 you use to pull crab pots and oyster traps out of the water. So 180 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:24,120 this truck is very distinctive and they've got good descriptions. The radio operator calls 181 00:13:24,159 --> 00:13:28,639 in and says, I'm next to this guy on the highway. He describes 182 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:31,720 the truck. They say, that's the one we're looking for you. So 183 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:37,879 it's got unusual plates on it too. It had vanity plates E M raw 184 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:41,679 eat them raw, which of course is an off color expression as well as 185 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:46,600 an oystering joke. So now they have a plate and a couple days later, 186 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:50,440 so now we're into four days after Keith Collin Cassandra Haley have gone missing 187 00:13:50,519 --> 00:13:54,360 on the Colonial Parkway. Two FBI agents roll up on this guy in his 188 00:13:54,480 --> 00:14:00,360 driveway up in Lancaster, Virginia, on the northern neck of Virginia, up 189 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:05,480 on the Rappahannock River. The two agents are immediately suspicious because this guy is 190 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:11,519 in his dirt driveway using solvent and water to clean out its truck and repainting 191 00:14:11,799 --> 00:14:16,840 some of the interior of the truck as well as the bed of the truck. 192 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:20,440 And this is a beater work truck. This isn't some fancy rig. 193 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:24,600 They regard this as very suspicious behavior. They ask the man questions. They 194 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:31,639 go back to their command center and discuss it with the team. They get 195 00:14:31,679 --> 00:14:35,960 a search warrant. They go back to the guy's house, which he shares 196 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:39,039 with his brother, a small house that's been described as a trailer or a 197 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:43,519 small house, modest place but compact. They have a search warrant. They 198 00:14:43,559 --> 00:14:48,159 find the things they're looking for, which include guns, handcuffs, and handcuffs 199 00:14:48,159 --> 00:14:52,799 could be important because they believe handcuffs were used in Kathy and Becky's murder a 200 00:14:52,879 --> 00:14:56,279 year and a half prior, and an extensive collection of pornography. So at 201 00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:00,679 this point, this guy's checking a lot of boxes. I've been looking for 202 00:15:00,879 --> 00:15:05,799 watermen since eighty six when Kathy and Becky were murdered because of the use of 203 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:11,159 rope knives and diesel fuel in that murder, not to mention handcuffs. After 204 00:15:11,559 --> 00:15:16,080 they serve the search warrant, they are thinking and IRV Wells tells us this. 205 00:15:16,559 --> 00:15:20,360 It's also in the book on the Colonial Parkway by Blaine Pardo and his 206 00:15:20,559 --> 00:15:24,480 daughter Victoria Hester a special kind of evil. This whole story is described. 207 00:15:24,679 --> 00:15:31,200 So they are absolutely convinced they found the Colonial Parkway killer. They bring him 208 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:35,720 in for the polygraphic examination that we talked about, and in the story they 209 00:15:35,759 --> 00:15:39,919 say they but they don't specify who they are, but we know one of 210 00:15:39,919 --> 00:15:43,720 them is Alan Wade Wilmer Senior. We're not sure who the second man is, 211 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:48,679 but the polygraphic examiner says they didn't do it and they don't know anything 212 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:52,720 about it. And that's when the sac ir of Wells responds, you better 213 00:15:52,919 --> 00:15:56,480 f and be right because they were so certain it was the right guy. 214 00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:02,000 We're hearing rumors from inside the investigation. Now there may have been a second 215 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:06,840 polygraphic examination and the results were inconclusive. We don't know that for a fact, 216 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:10,600 but regardless, as we understand it, they let these guys walk. 217 00:16:11,039 --> 00:16:15,039 What I'm struggling with, as the brother of a murder victim, is how 218 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:18,960 in the world did the two investigators who've been handling this case for the last 219 00:16:18,039 --> 00:16:22,799 fifteen years. We had one buy handling the case for five years and another 220 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:26,320 agent's been handling the case for a decade, and they were supposed to review 221 00:16:26,639 --> 00:16:33,240 all of the case materials over this fifteen year period. I understand that DNA 222 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:37,679 and other forensic options were not available to us in eighty eight, but they 223 00:16:37,759 --> 00:16:41,879 sure are available to us now. And somehow there is a disconnect that appears 224 00:16:42,039 --> 00:16:47,480 between the case agents from back in the eighties and the case agents. Now 225 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:52,559 you're listening to mindover Murder. We'll be right back after this word from our 226 00:16:52,600 --> 00:17:00,679 sponsors. We're back here at Mindover Murder now as I understand it, from 227 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:06,920 our current case agent in twenty twenty, I believe it is fall twenty twenty. 228 00:17:07,039 --> 00:17:11,440 They had a meeting and she briefed three longtime case agents now retired on 229 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:15,960 the status of the case. And after a two plus hour briefing, one 230 00:17:17,039 --> 00:17:19,640 of the three agents who was there, I knew two of their names from 231 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:23,279 my father, one of the three of them says, that's all well and 232 00:17:23,319 --> 00:17:27,519 good, but I still like my guy. Our current agent responds, who's 233 00:17:27,559 --> 00:17:33,279 your guy, and he says, Alan Wade Wilmer Senior. Here's a waterman 234 00:17:33,599 --> 00:17:37,279 up on the northern Neck. He also said it may be a mood point 235 00:17:37,279 --> 00:17:41,279 because he died a couple of years ago. This is twenty twenty, and 236 00:17:41,759 --> 00:17:45,200 Wilmer had died in December twenty seventeen. Here it is all these years later, 237 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:48,759 and he says, that's all well and good, but I still like 238 00:17:48,799 --> 00:17:53,039 my guy, Alan Wade Wilmer Senior. One of those heartbreaking situations where I 239 00:17:53,079 --> 00:18:00,079 feel like the agents were so close, and then a polygraph examination seemed to 240 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,119 push aside all the other evidence they had. Here's the thing, though, 241 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:07,480 I find that very interesting. Before the polygraph, there's a search warrant, 242 00:18:07,559 --> 00:18:11,960 and the bar in the federal system in order to get a search warrant, 243 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:15,880 I'm over my career probably was he afiant in anywhere between seventy five and a 244 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:22,319 hundred search warrants. The amount of information that needs to be there in order 245 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:26,960 to get into someone's own to search it is pretty extensive. So I'm thinking 246 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:33,480 that there's quite a bit of information that this agent had that he felt very 247 00:18:33,559 --> 00:18:36,920 comfortable with no matter what. Because look at it this way. How many 248 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,200 times a Jim can attest to this, how many times have we locked somebody 249 00:18:40,319 --> 00:18:42,240 up after we've searched our place and said, hey, did you do this? 250 00:18:42,319 --> 00:18:45,400 Doesn't matter what the crime is, and they say, I don't know 251 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,160 anything about it. Yet we know based upon the evidence that these guys are 252 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:52,200 this guy is a guy that did this right based upon all the other evidence. 253 00:18:52,559 --> 00:18:57,079 So I find it hard to believe that just because he passed a polygraph 254 00:18:57,599 --> 00:19:02,200 that they said, hey, the heck with this is not m I just 255 00:19:02,599 --> 00:19:06,279 I find that hard to swallow because I know that in the cases that I 256 00:19:06,319 --> 00:19:10,039 worked, in the cases that I supervised with other people that would never ever 257 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:14,960 happen. We would never dismiss something like that when there was other pointers that 258 00:19:15,039 --> 00:19:18,680 were looking at this case. I just if that happened, I'm very disappointed. 259 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:23,000 If that happened, I'm extremely disappointed because that should have never happened, 260 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,480 not with our agency, not with any agency for that matter, that should 261 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:32,200 have never happen. Would say it better than ready. We find ourselves baffled, 262 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,759 and we can only tell you what we've been told. This so called 263 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:38,119 driveway story as I refer to it, because of the two agents going up 264 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:42,599 and meeting with this man and questioning him, and then the search foreign and 265 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:48,119 the polygraph. This has come to us from multiple sources, including the SAC 266 00:19:48,319 --> 00:19:55,400 who was in charge of the Kathy Thomas Rebeccadowski investigation, as well as the 267 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:59,880 disappearance of Keith Collin Cassandra Haley a year and a half later, and he 268 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,279 he said to me, this is IRV. Wells now that the failure to 269 00:20:03,319 --> 00:20:07,519 solve the Colonial Parkway murders was the biggest disappointment. And I could tell it 270 00:20:07,559 --> 00:20:11,599 was a profound disappointment. In a pretty stellar thirty year career with the FBI, 271 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:15,960 agent Wells passed away two years ago now twenty twenty two, if I'm 272 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:21,279 not mistaken, I had three to four hours with him on two different occasions 273 00:20:21,279 --> 00:20:25,519 when we were filming Our Lover's Lane Murders television series. He and I spent 274 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:27,880 hours together and I didn't have to set up cameras and lights and all that 275 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:30,839 stuff, so we had a lot of time to talk, and he told 276 00:20:30,839 --> 00:20:34,400 me this story. Again. I definitely get what you're saying, Ray, 277 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:40,920 but that's what we're told happened. Somehow there was a disconnect that those case 278 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:45,480 agents in the early stages, who were really good, very well respected case 279 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:52,680 agents, somehow that information wasn't passed forward. Somehow. Our current case agent 280 00:20:52,759 --> 00:20:59,119 said she didn't know about Wilmer until twenty twenty, and he'd already been dead 281 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:03,240 for three years by that point. It's a very frustrating and baffling situation. 282 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:07,160 How do you read tells me she didn't read the case file, because if 283 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,799 you go back and read the case file, how can you not know the 284 00:21:10,799 --> 00:21:15,359 guy's name. I think she knew his name but didn't realize how much attention 285 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,880 should be paid to him. I don't know the polygraphic results should have been 286 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,839 in there, or some reference to it would be in the case file too, 287 00:21:22,839 --> 00:21:26,279 would it not. Yeah. I look nothing against any other agency out 288 00:21:26,279 --> 00:21:33,599 there, but the FBI. When we do something, there's nobody better at 289 00:21:33,599 --> 00:21:37,200 doing it than we are. Not to say that we can't drop the ball. 290 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:40,279 From time to time, that happens, but in something like this, 291 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:45,319 where there's multiple victims, there's multiple agencies, it pains me to say that 292 00:21:45,519 --> 00:21:49,400 not one person from any other agency said anything or had any input into this. 293 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:56,119 Something doesn't something's not right here. I would love to hear from the 294 00:21:56,160 --> 00:22:00,319 case agent who said, Hey, he said in years later, after this 295 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:04,079 guy's dead, he said, I still like my guy. Well, Wilmer 296 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:08,359 Senior, I still like him. Thirty years later, I still like him. 297 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:15,960 He's making that statement. What I would love to hear his explanation about 298 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:19,759 what happened. First, I'm trying to understand, and I guess I understand 299 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:26,799 that the case of the jurisdiction of the case came into the f venue because 300 00:22:26,799 --> 00:22:30,759 of the fact that there was a national park correct which was federal land. 301 00:22:30,839 --> 00:22:34,920 Yeah, and that's what gave the FBI think. And actually you have federal 302 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:41,559 park rangers that usually handle those things, but they're not equipped and NORSBI does 303 00:22:41,599 --> 00:22:45,480 not investigate homicides, but that doesn't mean that they're not capable of doing so. 304 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:51,839 They're very capable because a lot of FBI agents are former police officers, 305 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,839 right, And many of the agents I know, I don't know if you're 306 00:22:56,039 --> 00:23:00,599 also a police officer previously, but many FBI agents I've met, like Jim 307 00:23:00,799 --> 00:23:04,599 R, former cops themselves. Yeah, before we let you guys go, 308 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,519 we're going to ask you to just do one little bit of speculation. Is 309 00:23:08,559 --> 00:23:15,240 one more thing? Is there any reason that you could think of why a 310 00:23:15,839 --> 00:23:22,599 serial killers DNA might not be uploaded to the CODIS system if he's never been 311 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:26,680 charged with a crime, certainly a felony crime or even one involving a sexual 312 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:32,759 offense or a violent offense. That's my understanding. And there are as great 313 00:23:32,799 --> 00:23:36,920 as DNA is, and part of me is saying we should have everyone's DNA 314 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:41,960 in these databases. There are certainly civil libertarians and others saying that's not necessarily 315 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,039 the case. It's a violation of our rights. You forego some of those 316 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:51,880 rights when you're arrested for a violent crime and a sexual crime of some sort. 317 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:56,880 The laws vary from state to state. If Wilmer had no other violent 318 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:02,680 offenses under his belt, he did us unless and back in the eighties, 319 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:07,319 he wouldn't have been voluntarily asked to provide a saliva swab because the DNA analysis 320 00:24:07,519 --> 00:24:12,319 forensic DNA analysis wasn't around then, there was no reason for that. Then. 321 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:17,359 There's really no excuse nowadays if someone has one of those charges against them 322 00:24:17,559 --> 00:24:22,400 to either solve future crimes or do solve of course past crimes, not to 323 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:26,119 mention the one being investigated in real time. There's really no excuse for that 324 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,960 now. But unless it's voluntary. I am of the school my mind has 325 00:24:30,039 --> 00:24:33,400 changed a bit over the years without getting into some of the issues in our 326 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:37,160 country today, but if you're not accused of a crime, you shouldn't necessarily 327 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,920 have to either have stuff and taken from your body, or for that matter, 328 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,599 stuck into your body. And I think that's so. I understand that 329 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,240 part of why Wilmer's DNA was not in any sort of CODIS like database. 330 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,680 Just to add to what Jim said, back in the mid eighties, there 331 00:24:52,759 --> 00:24:56,720 was no DNA, so there was no CODIS. There was no purpose or 332 00:24:56,799 --> 00:25:02,480 reason to take a DNA SAMP because it didn't exist. To the best of 333 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:07,119 my recollection, I'm going to say two thousand and ten, two thousand and 334 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:11,400 nine, we start being mandated at anybody that's arrested. We were starting to 335 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,759 take swabs, and Jim was already gone from the bureau. So even when 336 00:25:14,839 --> 00:25:18,079 Jim was in a bureau before he left in two thousand and seven, we 337 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,599 didn't even weren't taking swabs in It didn't hapen till I think two thousand and 338 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:23,720 nine, twenty ten, at the end of my tenure, when I was 339 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,720 getting ready to leave that they started doing that. Codas existed then, but 340 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:33,400 it was only some people where they were forced to by search warrant. In 341 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:37,400 order to take someone's DNA, I had to obtain a search warrant in order 342 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,519 to get that DNA. In order to get hair samples. It wasn't readily 343 00:25:41,559 --> 00:25:45,160 done. Then it became a condition if you're arrested, not only are you 344 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,079 going to provide fingerprints, you're also going to provide a swap, And we 345 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,319 would do a cheek swab and send that down and that would be entered Toto 346 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:55,720 kotas. So that's probably the reason. Because twenty ten, this individual's in 347 00:25:55,720 --> 00:26:00,319 his mid fifties late fifties. At that point his probably careers criminal either really 348 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:06,119 subsided or was almost over one thing I'm thinking about now. I'm not throwing 349 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:10,000 anybody under the bus, and I've had plenty of criticisms of the FBI in 350 00:26:10,039 --> 00:26:14,839 the Virginia State Police over the years and quite intensively over the past few weeks, 351 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,559 because I don't think they were straightforward at all in this recent press conference 352 00:26:18,559 --> 00:26:23,519 where they announced the identification of this offender. But putting that aside for a 353 00:26:23,559 --> 00:26:29,519 second, I do think that all of us have to work together to find 354 00:26:29,519 --> 00:26:34,279 a work around in a situation like this. I think an offender like Wilmer's 355 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:38,920 DNA post mortem and a man's dead, he's a confirmed serial killer. He's 356 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,799 killed at least three people in two separate incidents, so he meets the FBI 357 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:48,319 criteria as we understand it for what is a serial killer. I think in 358 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:52,160 a situation like this, we have to figure out legally a way that we 359 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:56,880 can put offenders like this into CODIS because I think it would help us solve 360 00:26:57,039 --> 00:27:02,960 a lot of unsolved cases and provide answers for a lot of families like mine 361 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:07,799 that are looking for answers. I'm not trying to stomp all over anybody's rights, 362 00:27:07,799 --> 00:27:11,359 but I feel like a lot of your rights die with you, and 363 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:15,599 I think we have to find a way. We've heard about other offenders like 364 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:21,400 this that are known serial killers, but we're not actually charged with a crime 365 00:27:21,559 --> 00:27:25,680 prior to their deaths. I think post mortem we should find a way to 366 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:30,880 put those offenders into codis. I'm not don't have a legal background here, 367 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:34,319 so I don't know what the legality of that is, but I would concur 368 00:27:34,519 --> 00:27:40,519 that once you're past, and if you're found to be guilty of something after 369 00:27:40,559 --> 00:27:45,359 you're gone, that I think is perfectly acceptable ethically to submit that to a 370 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:51,640 database to check it against other DNA samples of unsolved crimes. I don't but 371 00:27:52,079 --> 00:27:55,559 again I don't know what the legality of that is, but from an ethical 372 00:27:55,599 --> 00:27:59,839 standpoint, I think it's perfectly acceptable to me. Jim, I guess the 373 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:04,480 rights of a dead person can be violated, can be constitutionally stepped on violated, 374 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,519 But I think if there's some sort of reasonable suspicion of some sort of 375 00:28:08,599 --> 00:28:12,599 violent activity on that person's part, and we certainly have it here, that 376 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:18,279 his DNA should be no Anzi for butts put in due codis and searched against 377 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:23,640 any other act of murder and sex crime across the nation. Yeah. To 378 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:29,119 me, there's no AZIP for butts about that, so hopefully someone down the 379 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:33,519 line. I'm not sure if his estate or his family has an attorney presenting 380 00:28:33,559 --> 00:28:37,839 the deceased mister Wilmer. He's not going to be defamed. I guess you 381 00:28:37,839 --> 00:28:41,599 could defame a dead person. We'll have our lawyers to tell us about that, 382 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:45,240 but I'd be happy to I'm be happy to defame him. I won't 383 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:51,440 tonight, but I might in the near future. But no one's if it's 384 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:53,240 not a match, it's not a match. No, and I would never 385 00:28:53,319 --> 00:28:57,880 defame there's a match. That's not defamation. That's the science linking up a 386 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:03,759 crime scene to specific offender, and that's not defamation. Only has to be 387 00:29:03,839 --> 00:29:08,160 untrue. No, I'm only sticking with the true part. But look, 388 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,799 if they figure out if Alan Wade Wilmer Senior is responsible for the murder of 389 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:18,599 Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Dowski, yeah, I probably won't cotton much to saying 390 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:23,160 great things about him. At the same time, we know for certain he's 391 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:29,680 linked via DNA to the murder of three people and circumstantially to the disappearance of 392 00:29:29,759 --> 00:29:34,440 Keith Colin Cassandra Haley. I am hoping and praying that there will be further 393 00:29:34,799 --> 00:29:40,279 cases in the Colonial Parkway murders and elsewhere that will be linked to this man, 394 00:29:40,319 --> 00:29:44,839 because I feel like there's a lot of families out there waiting for answers. 395 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,720 We can provide answers if the FBI and Virginia State Police can put a 396 00:29:48,799 --> 00:29:53,240 case together against this man, even though he is deceased. I would say, 397 00:29:53,599 --> 00:29:56,319 in all fairness, this has just come to light in the last couple 398 00:29:56,279 --> 00:30:00,839 of weeks. Yes, and I think we need to. I think everybody 399 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:06,960 needs to give the FBI and the Virginia State Police the opportunity to do their 400 00:30:07,039 --> 00:30:11,359 job and not prejudge them before they're able to do what they do. Having 401 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:15,000 worked with both of them, they're both outstanding. Work for one work with 402 00:30:15,039 --> 00:30:18,480 the other. They're both outstanding institutions. And I would say, give them 403 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,200 the opportunity to do their job, and if they don't do their job, 404 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,559 then smack them around a little bit. But I think once you give them 405 00:30:23,559 --> 00:30:26,279 that opportunity, I think they're going to do it. It's good advice, 406 00:30:26,759 --> 00:30:30,079 Ray, and I appreciate it. And you probably also talked me off a 407 00:30:30,119 --> 00:30:33,400 cliff. Yeah. Actually, honestly, Ray, I think you just did. 408 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,200 This is good gentlemen. I feel like I just got to take a 409 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:44,400 profiling masterclass. Thank you so much for joining us today and going through everything. 410 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:45,400 We have a ton more, of course, but we don't want to 411 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,960 keep you any longer. Thank you so very much. We really appreciate you 412 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:53,000 taking the time. You're welcome. Thanks for having me check us out on 413 00:30:53,039 --> 00:30:57,799 Gold Red Folks. Absolutely from that is going to do it for this episode 414 00:30:57,839 --> 00:31:02,519 of mind Ever Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you 415 00:31:02,559 --> 00:31:15,559 next time. Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog 416 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:22,519 Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art 417 00:31:22,559 --> 00:31:26,680 is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. Mind Over 418 00:31:26,799 --> 00:31:32,960 Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. You can follow us on 419 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,960 Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow our page on the 420 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:41,839 Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on 421 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:47,799 Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. Thank you for listening to Mind Over Murder