WEBVTT

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The Painting in Decorating Show on Fixed
Radio. Welcome to the Painting and Decorating

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Show on Fixed Radio. I'm Joel
bard All with Top On Joel, and

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on today's show, we're talking about
being selective with the work we take on

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as soul traders and how to avoid
taking on jobs you don't want. And

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joining us to offer some insight into
this is Brian Dennett, a third generation

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decorator with decades of experience. What's
happening Tvjen, We're saying blood Yeah,

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man, I'm good, I'm good. I'm looking forward today's show. I'm

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going to bring some positive positivity back
on the mic because I can feel that

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there might have been a bit of
negativity squeezing into my performance. Well hopefully

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hopefully in the positive vibes. I
know that recently the weather started to just

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pick up a little bit of teasings, teases. I actually came to the

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Fixed Radio studio just a T shirt, no pants, snow trousers is alwaying

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out, but you know, just
came to the studio and a T shirt.

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But yeah, man, it's it's
you only just feel like we've been

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saying this for weeks though, Like
it's on the horizon. But like recently,

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I was in the garden, was
doing a bit of gardening. I've

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seen the pitch down and sunning up
a bit, and it's just it's nice,

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man. I just feel that.
I think the whole positive thing there

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for me when the weather starts just
getting a little bit warmer and you're starting

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your outside jobs yet or anything in
the pipeline. In the pipeline, me

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and my power Danny's already checking out
my availability. He's the man with the

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big ten jobs in Kensington's big outside
one four weeks. I did work with

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him last year. I'm just starting
first a little bit, just a little

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bit of nothing major, just a
couple of windows and it was really easily

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accessible, you know. It's a
little bit of ladd of work, but

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just a couple of windows, a
bit of faceship board, just to sort

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of getting the ball rolling. But
I did notice as well as the weather

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has been warmer recently, what I
was working in a living room and I

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thought to himself, because it's a
bit of a sort yeah, it's a

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bit of a shock. And then
I thought to myself, I've been sort

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of saying and moaning and that I
don't want to do as many exterior jobs.

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And I thought, oh, you
know what, because I did a

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whole run of just pure exterior work
through the whole, like the summer season.

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I'm thinking, I hang on a
minute, you know, like,

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do I really want to be stuck
inside? Will you freak me out?

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Because a couple of weeks ago you
went up and doing I've been watching the

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weather and I'm predicting a wash out
this summer and It's played on my mind

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and I've never forgotten it because whose
mental health cann't handle just this elongated sort

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of like spring that's just not really
moving over into some of yet. And

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imagine that just a wet summer.
That mate? That well, fingers cross,

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mate. You know, I don't
always get everything right, So you

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take it with a pinch of salt. Right, Should we get rocking with

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the show? Yeah? Man right. Brian Dennett will join us to discuss

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how to be selective with the work
we take on after Jennifer Lopez only funny

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Painting and Decorating show on Fixed Radio. You're listening to the Painting and Decorating

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Show. I'm Joel Barder with Tov
and Joel and joining us on the phone

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now is for a generation decorator and
friend of the show, Brian Dennitt.

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Brian, welcome to the show mate. We're going to go straight into it.

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So we're talking about how to separate
the jobs you want from those you

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don't. So, Brian, what
are some basic red flags you look out

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for when in the quoting process?
Hi, Joel Hi Todd, Thanks for

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having me on the show again.
This is a bit of a dodgy area

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really. One red flag really is
if when you approach a customer's house that

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or it's a scruffy house, it's
sort of falling too bits, it doesn't

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look as though they've got any money, or they've got sort of like motorbike

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bits in the garden or whatever.
You think, God, you know,

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are they going to be able to
afford me for a start? That that

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would be a red flag. Another
one for me would be if they start

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telling me a lot of tech speak, like they know the inside out of

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my job. You've got to think, well, they've been told that by

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somebody else and they're probably just using
me as Another one, and probably one

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of the really strangest ones that I've
ever been asked with a big red flag.

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Somebody said to me, is it
okay if we pay you in installments,

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if we accept your quote? No, definitely not. I've had someone

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actually say to me, do I
do payment plans? I would early think

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no, yeah, yeah, I
know. Yeah. What kind of distances

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would you and wouldn't you travel to
for work? And why? Back in

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the past, when my dad was
working with me, we used to go

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about fifty sixty miles or about sort
of one hour away because we had some

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sort of regular jobs we used to
do. But luckily now ninety eight percent

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of my work is within a three
to four mile radius just in my village,

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the next village, or the next
two villages really, so that's really

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handy. I've got one client that's
about sixteen miles away. I was there

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a couple of weeks ago. And
I've got another client that's moved to the

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next county. She only used to
live down the road from me. I

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used to walk to her jobs.
But she's in the next county now.

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But she's quite happy to pay for
me to play travel time and expenses for

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me to get there and do her
work. So I must be doing something

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right. Yeah, it sounds like
it so I could do with some of

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that. I'm doing like one and
a half hours most of the time at

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one an hour to an hour and
a half, and I don't facts are

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in travel time or petrol money.
Just that just comes with me. You

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do you aim to talk too old
for that these days? I was going

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to say, do you aim to
try and be more local these days?

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Then I just don't need to travel. I'm very fortunate with my work.

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As I say, I've got a
lot of repeat customers, word of mouth

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recommendation. I don't need to travel, so I'm very fortunate. Yeah,

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no, fair enough, I know, and Tod obviously we talk about this

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a lot as well. I've always
tried to be for quite a few years

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now a local decorator. So yeah, I don't do much. I don't

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go really beyond never, very rarely
now. The only reason why it's ever

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now as if there's a heavy traffic, So most of the time it's between

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sort of thirty minutes forty five minutes
maximum. But yeah, it just I

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just feel more productive as well,
because you know, when you do that

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kind of travel time, Yeah,
it is hate. I don't I just

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don't like driving. It's because I
built up the local decorator sort of like

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clients out and then I moved,
keeping that I have cited down a lot

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from what I was doing. But
it does take out of you, Yeah,

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oh it does. I'm currently working
about maybe a third of a mile

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away from home, which is really
nice. Traffic was bad this morning,

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though, I had to give way
at the T junction. Yeah, I

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know, I found as well.
I had a job quite recently. It

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was literally three minutes down the road, and I sort of felt like I

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was getting later and later because I
thought, well, I don't have to

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get a bed just so early,
so early, and I could be late

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with its three minutes down the road, right, Brian, So how can

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you assess your profit margins and figure
figure out whether a job is worth the

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price you're quoting? I don't think
you always can. Sometimes it's not until

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you start the job that you realize
certain things that will affect your profit.

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You know, just something simple like
can you park on the job or do

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you have to park in a car
park down the road and you've got to

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carry your stuff backwards and forwards?
Things like that, Just simple things like

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whatever room you're working in, does
the client want that room put back at

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night, and you've got to set
it all up again in the morning.

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It's just all these little half an
hour's here and there can add up and

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affect your bottom line, bright mayde
your profits. Seth When you say that,

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do you mean like extra days you've
you've put on the job which you

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wouldn't be which you wouldn't be working
for like labor? How do you what

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do you what constitutes profit for you? Talking to me? If if if

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I think I'm going to a job's
going to take me five days, I

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will quote it for five days labor. If I get out of it in

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four, then obviously I've made a
day's labor on it. That that's that's

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profit to me. I know a
lot of guys you know sort of stick

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got a load of tentages on top. I do to a certain degree,

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but it's all in a lump sum. But I still it still works out

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on you know, how long I
think a job's going to take? Yeah,

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same here. Maybe if it's say
it's a job that's thirty days,

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I might quote thirty two days.
But usually the thing is those days get

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eaten up, Like you said,
anyway, so you're still working on those

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days. It's not like Time made
a really good point there, because it's

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something I'm quite guilty of sometimes where
I've actually forget to actually ask the client

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safe it's a bedroom and you go, oh, I've priced it for eight

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eight hours an eight hour day,
and I've actually forgot to say, oh,

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do you need that room back of
an evening because they go, yeah,

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we need to we need to sleep
in here. Whenever you think you've

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got you can't just leave it sleeping
on the dust sheets. You got,

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you got pulled out away, like
you say, a good half hour sort

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of clearing the sort of things,
leaving bits and getting the bits out of

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the way. So it's you see, it's one of those things you can

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easily kind of up over a job. Yeah, have a two week job

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half an hour a day, what's
that? Ten days, ten times half

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and that's five hours half a day's
work. Yeah, you know the other

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one with the maskulls mate, not
me. So I've believe everywhere you say,

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Okay, Brian, we've got we've
got more to ask you about this

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fixed radio. I'm Joel Bardo with
Tov and Joel, and we're talking about

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how to be selective with the jobs
you take on as a decorator. Still

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on the line is Brian Dennett,
who has decades of experience in our trade,

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running his third generation family business.
Brian, So, what kind of

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work do you personally avoid in decorating
and why? Um, papering? Really,

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I'm not a lover of papering.
I'm not the best paper hanger,

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but I've got fed up of clients
buying cheap crap paper that's just not fit

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for purpose and they expect you to
make it perform miracles basically. Yeah.

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Yeah, on exteriors. Then if
a job needs scaffolding and the clients as

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all, I'm not paying for that. You know, you can do it

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off a ladder. Well no,
sorry, no, If it's going to

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risk my neck then then no way. I'll have a red flag. Yeah,

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yeah, it it is a red
flag. Yeah. But getting back

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to papering, Um, you know, if a client says, oh,

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you know, I'm using top quality
paper or whatever, all this is what

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I'm going to use and it's a
nice one, then I'm happy to do

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it. But look this toilet paper
crap that they sometimes I just got a

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name to it. Yeah, yeah, mentioning no names. Yeah, okay,

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So, what's been some instances where
you've walked away, either in the

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process of quoting, or even at
the start, or even during the work

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itself when quoting when you realize that
the client just wants a very cheap job

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done and won't listen to any advice
that you give them, and I just

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tend to sort of say to them, well, look, sorry, but

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my standard of work is beyond your
requirements, and I will not lower my

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standards and have my name attached to
the type of work that you want.

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So I would walk away in that
sense on a job. In all the

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sort of fourteen what five or six
years since I've been working, it's only

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opened twice. The first instance was
a client's husband accused us. When I

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say us, it was me and
my father at the time, of damaging

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a ceiling in a room which was
at the opposite end of the house that

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we were actually working in. Now, he absolutely flew into a rage.

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He was very nearly come to blows
that he was I say, he did

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it didn't physically attack us, but
he was awful, really awful. So

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we just he threatened us an all
sorts. So we just down tours and

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we walked out, and when we
never returned, it turned out that another

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contractor had damaged the ceiling when he
was in the loft above that particular room.

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This boat never ever did apologize,
although his wife did, but we

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never ever went back to work from
again. Yeah, yeah, paid,

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Did you lose money there as well? No, no, we not paid

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for what we did, which which
was absolutely fine. But yeah, we

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left some materials there, but again
it was all paid for, so so

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no, we didn't. We didn't
lose out. We got paid for what

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we did. Now. The other
case was on an exterior job where we

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were doing we needed to put a
ladder in the neighbor's garden to paint about

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three meters of facier and soft it
right at the end of a job,

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but the neighbor refused as he is. Him and the client were feuding,

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so we just couldn't finally finish the
job, so we had to walk away

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to him. You know, you
get it, Yeah, you get it

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sorted, and we'll come back.
Well we did go back because they both

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ended up going to court a few
months later, custom about two grand in

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legal fees. All happy days,
and we went back and did the job.

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So but that's the only two instances
that's ever happened to me. Fair

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enough, mate. So last on
the last show, we talked about working

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for friends and family. So what's
been your experiences with that and also what

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are some rules you have when doing
so? Another difficult one. There's always

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a difficult one with friends and family. I tend to do it for free

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or very cheap on a favor return
basis, but generally you'll never make any

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money working for family or friends.
Well I don't anyway, Brian face for

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your time of knowledge on this show
today, right, you're listening to fixed

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radio the Builder Station and painting and
decorating shows on fixed Radio. This is

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the Painting and Decorating show on Fixed
Radio. I'm Joel Barter with Tov and

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Joel, and we're talking about how
to avoid taking on jobs that aren't right

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for you and your business. So, when you've taken all the jobs you've

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regretted in the past, what do
you find is the most common issue.

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Well, for me with that,
there's sort of two things. One is

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the practical issue, where there's clearly
a lot more work than I've quoted for,

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and the mountain of extra work doesn't
really constitute me going to the client

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and saying, right, I'm going
to need this is going to take another

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day or day and a half.
It's my own oversight or something that if

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I have been a little bit cute
when I was putting the quote together,

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I would have realized always sort of
is bad from a role, and you

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know you're gonna have to do a
lot more than you thought you were going

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to the same price. And the
other thing is when you're working with someone

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and I don't want to say the
relationship turned sour because we're all professionals and

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we would never let that happen.
But that doesn't mean we're not thinking certain

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things. And sometimes when you're working
for someone and their personality, you get

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to know them and you have issues
with their personality or the way they are

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that can make things a bit like
going in because they're whatever, and you

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know what I mean, they're just
a bit of they're not right for whatever

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reason that could be. I think. So I think there's a lot of

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hindsight with what we do as well, I mean, and then sometimes you

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don't pick up on things. But
I know there's people who are fussy and

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I've always made a point of that
they've got every right to be fussy.

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But there are times you've done a
job you think they're going to be a

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lot nice people to work for,
but then they're beyond fussy, you know,

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like they're overboard fussy and it's just
nitpicking in the end, and then

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you're thinking, oh, this personally, you know, and it's just like

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that they look they're actually going out
their way to look for imperfections and blemishes.

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So I just, you know,
like this little minor things is ridiculous.

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I finally you get situations with that
kind or the other thing I get

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is I'm quite sort of I feel
I'm quite good at reading people, and

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I understand that although having like decorating
and work done in the house, in

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the long run is a lovely thing, it is an inconvenience and it is

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stressful having people in your house.
And what I find is sometimes when they

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start to resent you being there because
they've got to get up every morning and

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let you in at eight o'clock or
whatever, and you can start to feel

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it and you're like, look,
I'm just coming here to do a job.

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If you I'm sorry you've had to
get out of bed or whatever.

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This is inconvinced you. But you
are employing me to do this. Yeah,

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yeah, exactly, and you can
sort of sense it a bit.

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And also and if you start to
feel awkward in the house, like you

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just want to be able to use
the toilet or make a cup of tea

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or or be offered a cup of
tea without tiptoeing around people. And like

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you said, some people, you
can't quite believe how rude they are.

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What I know what I don't do. I don't do it at all now.

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But I used to do a lot
of work for like like blocks of

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flats and stuff like that, so
you know, like the communal areas.

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I don't won't won't going near him
now because I've had things in the past

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where like when you work communal and
then if it's private, then all of

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the occupants have to pay together when
you're only dealing with one person, and

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there's always that one person. One
I'm at work, I'm not going to

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open up the front door because I'm
not here, And you're thinking, well,

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how do you want me to paint
the front door? How do you

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want me to do? How much
supposed to get into your balcony. I

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supposed to do this, and I've
done those jobs in the pass and the

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like good money out of them.
But I'm like, now I've been asked

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and these people have actually worked on
and they're going, oh, we actually

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want to get the community aries done. Would you quote? No, because

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I've just been too many times when
I've been on those jobs and I'm thinking,

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oh, man, in the end, it's just it's frustrate. You've

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got one busybody that's organizing it,
and then you've got some people that want

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it done, some people that don't
really care, and then some people that

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don't want it dun because I don't
want to pay the money, and they've

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argued out amongst themselves, and by
the time you get on the job,

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the ones that don't want to pay
whatever, Yeah, they come out and

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have a little weirds just a bit
of a weird atmosphere. Yeah, because

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you never had any contact with them, never even met them. Every really

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said the first time is when you
knock on the door and you feel like,

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yeah, you get with that sort
of attitude. What changes have you

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made to your quoting process over the
years to avoid taking on unwanted jobs?

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I would say the terms and conditions. That is not something that I've always

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done. This take me a long
time to grasp that and actually implementing every

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quote or estimate I do now.
So that is a big factor. And

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I clearly state certain things. I
mean I had a job, really nice

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job, nice people. But when
I said about getting a deposit for the

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materials and we was talking about payment
like before the job started, it was

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like, oh, yeah, I'll
pay you a check, and I said,

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no, I don't accept checks.
And it's actually on my terms and

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conditions I won't accept checks. Now. I know you can get the banking

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apps and you can take pictures and
stuff, but it's only up to a

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certain limit. But who's got the
time? Because of shutting down banks left,

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right, and center, I ain't
got time to go and run down

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the bank and do that. And
I'm thinking you've had enough time because this

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is not like oh this is last
minute. I mean, this has all

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been organized and it's in black and
white on the terms and conditions that I

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don't accept checks. It was all
fine, but I was a bit like,

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you know, man, it's just
it's just too much. Yeah.

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Twenty three, who's who's dealing with
checks. Now, I don't know.

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I hate technology, but you won't
catch me. Yeah, and I think

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there's I know there's some older clients
and you have to kind of you know

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what I mean. You want to
help people out, but at the same

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time, you think, you know, you've you've accepted this quote in the

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X amount of time, you know, in advance. So it's been months

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and months and months and it's there, it's been written out so prepared for

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it. So no, it's only
like a minor mistake, but on their

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part. But yeah, again,
terms and conditions for me is so emptying

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stuff out of the room. It
damages if there's anything. It was Brian

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saying about damage on the ceiling,
and you know, like sometimes if the

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people want to blame you for damage
for their property, so you can say,

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look, I understand if you want
to leave the television and your sofas

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in the room because you can't move
them out, that's fair enough. But

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I won't be liable for any damages. So I put that in terms of

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conditions because I'm thinking the end of
the day, if there's really valuable bits,

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you need to take them out of
the room. I understand you have

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to stay there. But if I
should accidentally smack it, whack it or

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anything like that, it's not what
you know, what I mean, what

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we're supposed to do because yourself.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. My thing.

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What I'll do is to add on
to that is to do with the

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work stuff. So I'll write,
for example, exterior faces of cupboards and

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then the capitals only because I don't
want to go out. You're not doing

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inside the cupboards? No, because
you said no, and doing inside the

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cupboards it's actually much more work than
you think it is, exactly And if

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you said no, I'm making it
clear that we all know I'm not doing

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the inside because there's twelve cupboards in
the property hallway facing only. I put

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things like that. Yeah it's a
little detail. Yeah yeah, exactly,

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exactly right. We'll talk about distances, would travel and request from customers before

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the end of the show, So
stay with us Fix Radio time to crack

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on. I'm Joe Badle with Tovan
Jo and we've been talking about bringing the

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wrong kind of job into your business
as a decorator. So travel, where

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will you and won't you travel to? And why toddn't know you said you

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do you do side. You see
you done it again? You said you

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do a fair few miles, don't
you mate? I do? I do

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too much. It's because I built
up a client base in Surrey and now

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I live in Heartford year. I
think, what for this for Hartford year?

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Yeah, living Haartford year. So
I'm always on the M twenty five.

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Starting to get a few more North
London jobs, so which is good,

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but even still North London is still
forty five fifty minutes away Jay one

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and Highgate at the moment. Yeah, do you know what, I'm sort

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of ruled myself out at the top
end of this. I do travel up

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to sort of an hour and forty
five minutes at worse sometimes. Yeah,

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So you prefer not too Basically,
I prefer not to. I prefer to

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be a guru and do the walk
to work. I think, look,

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there's gonna be there's gonna be jobs
that are going to be worth your while

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if you're traveling like a long distance
And again I always feel this is a

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bit of a preference thing. If
you if it's all about the money and

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you're prepared to travel and you don't
mind it, then I don't go for

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it. But me personally, I
just I hate driving. I hate I

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was just kinda do you know what
even at the moment, I don't know

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about you. Have you seen that
elephant that's escaped there's on the pogo stick

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because I was a horrendous man.
And it just feels like I'm doing a

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five minute journey and I'm mashing up
me van just getting to work. So

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it's just everything. I don't like
driving, I don't like going to distance,

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and I feel like when you do
get to after if you've done it

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now or so driving or you've been
sitting in traffic, I'm so frustrated and

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wound up my time get to the
job that you know, I don't want

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to start a job on the down
are like that half an hour does be

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fine. You're totally right there.
And I think it's a luck shore.

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I think you've obviously built up over
the years to so your work is like

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that. I mean, I know
it wasn't always like that, and I

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think it's just where I've moved.
I think any Decora actually become established and

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you build up your client base,
usually it'd be kind of near to where

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you are, unless you're working for
like a big company. Which is sort

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of pimping you up over the place. Let's say you you know what you

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want to charge your day, and
if you're working locally and that's what you

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charge your day. If you're going
a distance and you're traveling more miles and

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you're still charging that same amount,
something's really really wrong. You can't be

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driving even further so there's more miles
and you know you're paying for more diesel,

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petrol or whatever, and you've got
all that extra time and you're charging

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the same money. That's staff if
you That's what I'm saying. If you're

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traveling but you're earning more money fair
enough, that makes it easier. I

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think if you're on a good price
for that work and you can sort of

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justify. But you're right because if
you're doing the distances that I'm doing,

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sometimes it's like fifteen twenty quid a
day and petrol plus I'm stopping the whole

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time buying meal deals. Amounts My
outgoing is a day can be like thirty

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five quids sometimes. Yeah, So, because what kind of radius do you

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need to operate in to avoid becoming
a busy fault? Again, this is

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what I'm saying. See it it's
what. It depends on the business.

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It depends what kind of business you've
got. So if it may make sense

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for you to do the traveling,
then go these distances and go here,

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there and everywhere, and you're earning
money out of it, yeah, absolutely,

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and you're prepared to do it,
then fine. But for me personally,

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I've always just tried to be a
local, local decorator. And I

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mean the other factories as well.
It's you've got going to look at the

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jobs. So if you've got going
price the jobs, imagine driving an hour

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or so to or whatever. You're
driving all that distance to the job,

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and you don't even get the job. I mean, how frustrating would that

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be? You know, so you've
lost that time, you lost money,

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and you've not even won the job. And you've got to think about because

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over the course of a year traveling
to quote jobs, spending time we all

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hate quoting. Whether you think when
your phone, your laptop, whatever,

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it's probably forty five minutes to get
the quote just right. Over the course

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of a year, I wonder how
many hours and therefore how many days and

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maybe how many weeks we spend just
traveling and quoting for work. That we're

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never going to be like good Will
Hunt and give us the maths. I'm

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actually not. I'm like, I'm
the opposite. But yeah, a lot,

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do you know what I mean?
Just when you look at it like

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that from a business sense, which
I don't always look at things like that,

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it's like, well, it's like
when you go, right, Todd,

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how many coffees you buy a day
in the meal deal? Two or

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00:23:55.319 --> 00:24:00.240
three? That's like nine pounds a
day just on coffee. Yeah, man

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00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:03.079
quid day whenever. I probably have
three coffees a day and I'll stop off

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00:24:03.079 --> 00:24:04.720
at characters. Yeah, not every
day. But if you look at it

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like that, it's like people that
smoked, they say smoked twenty a day.

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How much is it for a cigarette? Seas scorn hu, that's that

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00:24:12.319 --> 00:24:15.599
four hundred quid a month. Four
hundred times twelve is a lot of money

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00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:22.160
on grouts. Yeah, but they
make you look like though people think they

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look like James Dean, they look
more like alien mcquine