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you the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast. It's time for this week's Interview Classic,
where Wade Keller interviews one of pro wrestling's newsmakers. Ten years ago today,
I interviewed Grant Lands David Shoemaker, who talked with me about current events
in professional wrestling. And it is today's Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast Interview Classic
four Wednesday, March fourteenth, twenty twenty four, ten years ago today.
Topics in the news that I discussed with David included Seeampunk's effect in Chicago,
the Holkogan John Cena alliance, the Daniel Bryant triple A changle on Raw,
the situation with brock Lesnar Undertaker, live color questions on wrestlming you thirty some
email questions and more. So let's get to it again. This is our
ten years ago Interview Classic Here on the Wayetller Pro Wrestling Podcast. Welcome to
thep W Torch Live Past. Dim Wade Keller, Editor and publisher of the
Pro Wrestling Torch newsletter dating back to our launch in nineteen eighty seven and also
with pwtorch dot com websites in nineteen ninety nine. You're a home of daily
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app store on your device. And we also have a sister site and sister
app called Mma Toorch dot com. A big payperview tomorrow night, We've got
you covered with full free. It is Friday, March fourteenth, twenty fourteen,
and I am joined on Interview Friday by David Chumaker of grant Land dot
com. David, Welcome back to the program man, Thanks for having me.
It is great to have you back on the show. We've had a
lot go on since the last time you were on the show. Had you
been on the show last Friday, a lot would have gone on since the
last time you were on the show. What a WrestleMania season. And I
want to focus a lot, although we're going to throw the phone lines open
to callers too, of course, but we are going to talk a lot
about Monday's Raw and WrestleMania thirty developments. I thought a lot came into focus
for WrestleMania thirty on Monday's program, mostly for better in my opinion. I
thought it was a fascinating program with WWE kind of finally, as Chris Jericho
said, giving the fans what they want that had been staring them in the
face all along. David, I'm curious about your thoughts on the big angle
with Daniel Bryan triple h the fans and kind of it, you know,
Dania Bryan saying he organized his fans uh and gathered them and invited them into
the ring to basically hijack Raw or as a takeoff on the Occupy Wall Street
movement to occupy Raw. What you think of that angle on Monday night?
It was It was an incredible scene. I mean, I I mean,
I don't think anybody saw it coming, and even if you did, I
think that would have still been a kind of breasttaking moment for that. You
know, it was the sort of the sort of the culmination of that storyline
so far, it was really you know, I mean we I know,
you and I have had different points of view on on on the on the
arc of Brian's career, at least as as determined by w WE over over
the preceding months, but you know, I would have never guessed that that's
where they were gonna go. And and there's and certainly they've been, you
know, playing with Daniel Bryan fans within the context of the storylines pretty relentlessly
over the past couple of months. But the way I mean, and all
that said, the way that they pulled the main event that you know,
the title match step out of just thin air at the end of that Homo
was pretty incredible and and pretty ballsy. But uh, I mean it was,
like I said, I didn't see it coming. I was I was
excited, you know, I had that little that little tingle of like this
is what it was like to watch wrestling when I was ten years old again.
But yeah, I mean, over I mean, overall, you know,
I don't want to give them credit for this, and you know,
as anybody think, I'm saying, this has been the storyline for the past
six months, that they've been building to, but the way they put it
on on Monday, you know, was pretty was pretty incredible at that.
Our phone number is six four six seven two one nine A two eight and
we are talking uh WWE today and wrestlmating of thirty developments and we definitely welcome
your phone calls. And uh we are with David Chumaker, not only of
Grantland dot com, Pro Wrestling's columnist at Grantland dot Comedy ESPN website affiliate,
but also author of the Squared Circle Life, Death and Professional Wrestling, which
is available by the way at audible. And we'll tell you how to get
that book free, Yes free. I hope you still get residuals from it
if Audible gives it away. David, Yeah, I believe I do.
Oh that's good. All right, So we'll tell you how to get David's
book for absolutely free during the show if you have not yet taken advantage of
our free book offer at audible. And we'll do that in just a few
minutes. Yeah, David, I'm with you. I thought that the scene
with Daniel Bryant and the fans reminded me of my first visit to ECW Arena.
Back in nineteen ninety five, the Public Enemy beat the Gangsters in the
main event at ECW Arena in Philadelphia. This was in July, I think
July ninety five, and now the ECW scene was more spontaneous, but the
Public Enemy started celebrating. They would wagh their hands in the air to their
theme music, and it was kind of a tradition for fans to do it
in the audience, but fans decided to storm the ring and celebration, and
Public Enemy, the late Johnny Grunge and the late Ted Petty rock o'rock encouraged
fans to go in the ring and they crowded the ring to the point that
it was absolutely packed with fans, and I've got photos of it. I
actually ran a pick sure of the scene in the cover of the Progressing Torture
newsletter this week and compared it to that moment in that even though that was
more organic, this was more orchestrated. On Monday, it was orchestrated in
a way, David that simulated I think what fans have been kind of feeling
and wanting to do, like it would have been orchestrated if they did it
for Batista you know, like when he came back, like you'd be groaning
and a bunch of people in skinny jeans and Batista teaherts w jump into the
ring, you know, I mean, we would have been like, come
on, this is ridiculous. And I know there's been some criticism of WWE,
and you've even written about it. Kind of, I should say youve
been critical of, but you've written about and acknowledged that WWE is kind of
co opting organic fan movements and marketing the Yes Tea shirts, coming up with
a yes movement phrase and now Occupy raws to take off on Occupy Wall Street.
I'm fine with that. And because WWE's corporation that's trying to make money
and they should take what the fans want and do it, but they need
to do it in a way that doesn't come across as to corporate, too
corporate and too heavy handed, like when Michael Cole, for instance, kept
calling CM Pump Pump sm punk, the pipe bomb, the pipe bomb throwing
CM punk like they started. You know, when Michael Cole says something,
he's just such a dork. It kind of ceases to be cool, especially
if it sounds like he's pushing it. But I thought they I thought they
hit enough of a sweet spot on Monday that I was really okay with it
because it felt like, even if it was planned, it represents accurately.
I think how fans feel. How did you feel about the execution of it?
The details? Yeah, I think that's a really smart way of doing
it. I mean, you're right that you know it was. I mean,
there was there was a lot of staging involved, obviously, and I
think that that had to do with one, you know, creating a moment
that would be memorable, that would be you know. I Mean the big
thing that I always say, I'm sure you do too, is that it's
less important how it happens in real time than how it looks on the on
the promo package they pieced together later on, and that visual is going to
live on in WWE history. But you know, and the other thing is
that the you know, I I think they probably had an intuition from having
been there a million times that that Memphis crowd wasn't gonna exactly still the void
that they the previous crowds had as far as joint you know, being being
full fledged members of the Yes movement if you will. Uh so they you
know, they had to kind of set something up that they weren't going to
do anything bigger at least than like, you know, Brian on top of
the steel cage. So you know, it was it. You know,
there there were there were if you if you weren't engaged, like I said,
I was as like, you know, a ten year old, you
could definitely take a step back and say, yeah, there's a little bit
of gimmickery going on here. It does seem a little bit silly on its
face, but you know, I mean that's professional wrestling for you. And
and the fact that they are, that they are acknowledging the ground swell in
the first place, is something I think Daniel Bryant fans should be pretty happy
about. Yeah, and that's what's interesting about fans speaking out. And I
know you talked with Pete Rosenberg on your podcast about the idea with taking the
Daniel Bryan movement and and not, and he was sort of critical. I
think I think it was him who was critical of like the fans chanting.
And again, it's kind of like there's a there's a spectrum, it's not
a binary choice. But he was he seemed a little more critical of fans
voicing their opinions, and I think he was the one and correct me if
I'm wrong who said that fans should just buy ticket to a house show as
opposed to chance for Daniel Bryant at a show that doesn't have him headlining.
And I really, I really disagreed with that because I think it's because the
fans, well, first of all, it's unrealistic just wait around forever and
then buy a ticket and expect that to, you know, once Daniel Brian
headlines, and expect that to make a bold statement when you can actually go
to the show and respond as wwe by the way, has empowered the fans
to do in so many ways in recent years and voice their opinion. And
I think it is that voicing of their opinion for both c and Punk and
Daniel Bryan that has changed the course of the default mode that Triple A sho
physic Man have, which is more towards fatista types. Your your thoughts on
that, and I mean it fulds like you're kind of giving credit to the
fans for making this angle kind of happen. The way it's it's being steered
right now. No, Yeah, okay, I am absolutely, And but
that was me that you were quoting for my podcast. Yeah, well,
clarify your point, because maybe I misunderstood it. I mean I was really
I mean, I was really going all in on this sort of on that
hijacked raw Twitter account that I thought was just sort of I mean, I
thought that, you know, their heart was in the right place, but
the actual like I mean, I thought it was the actual rules or rules
the guidelines that they laid out were stilly in kind of self contradictory, and
the very idea of going in to a wrestling event with an agenda like that
kind of kind of hit me the wrong way. I completely agree that the
fans are integrals the product. I mean, I talk about that in my
book and I say it all the time. There's nothing else like pro wrestling
when like the fans are an equal party in the you know, in the
show. I mean going back to you know, make mean fifty or even
before you know, a heel's only a heel if he's getting booed, and
that's like part of the process. Uh. And it's totally within the fans
rights, uh and responsibility to you know, to to to to cheer the
guys they like, you know, I I have a distaste for, you
know, needlessly booing all the way through you know, Shamus and Christian when
they're putting on a good message with that uh and that, you know,
and that's and I think I was, you know, I was certainly like,
you know, overreacting a little bit as some of us are want to
do when we're being you know, media personalities. But but but yeah,
I mean it was, uh, you know, I think that was sort
of an isolated incident. And and I mean to some extent and uh and
but I wholeheartedly endorse, you know, fans putting Brian over. I mean,
you know, the yes chance for the past I mean, how long
has it been now, two years? I mean have been one of the
best parts about about wrestling. And just to see you know, just to
see the fans put him, you know, just basically drag him into the
main event in a lot of ways has been not just cool to watch,
but really kind of reaffirming as a fan, you know. And I know
there's a lot of people out there that feel like they're kind of being ignored
disenfranchised by WWE. And and I think this is a great well. If
it's not an olive branch, a deliberate one, it's it's at least a
sort of like, you know, corrective measure that I think everybody can be
pretty happy with. Yeah, I think they've righted the ship. And it's
interesting because two things had to happen for this to happen. Sampunk needed to
quit after the rumble and Batista needed to completely flop as a babyface. I
don't think I'm curious what you think, but I don't think we would have
seen Monday's raw happen the way it played out if Batista got over as a
baby face, because generally speaking, WWE doesn't like triple threat matches. There's
a lot of parallels and I've been talking about it. I talked about it
in this week's First and Torture just letter talked about it all week on vipaudio.
The fascinating comparisons for Resumania thirty versus Resumania twenty and w Restumenia ten just
it's just one of those happy coincidences that it's just on these ten year marks
that these similar parallel things in history have happened. But WWE, I think
is landing in the right place, but they're doings their landing somewhere that goes
against their initial instincts. And that happened with Brett Hard and Lex Luger twenty
years ago. Because I just and I want to have remembered this detail,
exceptime I was putting up the back issue for VIP members of the Torchoo Hutter
from twenty years ago, and we had an item on page two. It
was in a little sidebar box that was a spoiler and it said at the
recent TV taping, they taped Lex Luger parading around the ring with the WWF
Championship and it's meant to air after WrestleMania, and they needed an excuse to
film him with the belt after his title win, and so they filmed him
a couple of weeks before Mania at a taping, and they had a whole
thing where it was like, you know, they had a whole backstory,
which is kind of funny, but to explain it to the fans locally,
so they didn't break you know, it didn't seem like they were giving it
away, but it was what it was. And so it was just in
the last two three weeks that vincick Man was still hedging, and they finally
just decided to go with Brett Hart because both Luger and Brett had title shots
against Yo Kazouna on that show. And you know, Vince's doesn't like three
way matches and headlines at WrestleMania. He went with it at WrestleMania twenty with
Hunter Michaels and Benwa, but he didn't do it twenty years ago because three
ways were practically not invented yet. That was more of an ECW thing that
started with Terry Funk, Sabu and Shane Douglass. So they just went with
two title defenses in one night. So we're seeing Vincent Mann and Triple H,
the two most powerful creative forces, do something that if you told them
two months ago, you're gonna have Daniel Brian wrestling twice, Daniel Brin's gonna
beat you, Triple H, and then he's gonna go and beat the Peace
and Randy Orton in a three way, which I think is the most likely
scenario. Don't know for sure. I think they would have thought we were
crazy. They go what happened to see? I'm punk? And why the
hell were putting Daniel Bryan and the made him in WrestleMania. So I think
the fans, circumstances and the fans have really made something kind of unexpected happened.
But I think Vince and Hunter are doing it without plugging their nose.
I think they kind of have come around to real eyes, this is what
the fans want, and I think the rejection of Batista in the way that
that that rejection happened, combined with us continued just passion for Brian. I
think they get credit for adjusting their thinking to what the fans want. And
I think it's just a fascinating story we're going to talk about for years.
Invite you to email the show with feedback or questions or comments. That email
address is Wade Keller Podcast at PTW torch dot com. That's Wadekeller Podcast at
PW torch dot com. Also welcome your feedback on Twitter. You can follow
us on Twitter at PW Torch and follow me at the Wade Keller that's at
PW Torch and at the Wade Keller. Yeah. I mean when I I
interviewed Tribalais Shaver long ago, that was you know, he made the points
that that that they have, you know, a live test market audience every
single night that they perform, and uh, and to think that they were
that they would ever ignore the fans, you know, in the face of
that is just sort of ridiculous. And obviously that's not true under percent the
time. There's there's many examples of them doing just that or seeming examples.
But but yeah, I mean, the Luger example is a great one,
and the lure you know, Batista parallel is probably is pretty telling. Yeah,
you know, I mean, there's it's hard to imagine things going as
wrong as they have, I mean, between the between the Batista and Punk
things for WW you know, as they have over the past couple of months.
But you know, they did. I think there's probably a lot of
you know, it's not just that that's that that kind of led to this
WrestleMania shaping up in the way that it was intended to. I think you're
right about the Triple Threat matches. There's a lot of little things like that,
you know, I mean, and and they're you know, and I
don't think over the you know, the past, I mean over the breadth
of WrestleMania, but particularly the past few years. You know that that Vince
would even be inclined to have a storyline running through the show like Daniel Bryan's
is going to. I think he, you know, would rather just have
five matches that he can build as the biggest matches ever and just sort of
have them as in little in their in their you know, separate universes leading
up to the big event. And so you know, the storytelling going up
to this, going up to WrestleMania this year is is uh, you know,
I mean, it's it's gonna be kind of interesting because because of the
Brian thing, but in some ways they still sort of have him cordoned off.
It's going to be uh, you know, like him and Triple H
and and then the title match are all sort of one thing and then they
you know, I'm sure we'll talk about it later. But the but the
the the Battle Royal is you know, it's it's a you know, kind
of separate thing, keeping everything apart. But yeah, I mean, the
the fact that Brian managed managed to come as far as he did, and
the fact that w W E uh, like you said, Vincent Hunter were
were you know there to realize it and uh and capitalize on it. I
think is. I mean, he got to, like I keep saying it,
you got to be excited about it as a wrestling fan. I mean,
it's gonna be regardless of what happens, it's going to be a really
cool show for for people who've been fans of Brian and just fans of wrestling
for a long time. I do, I do, for some reason,
think it's more than a little likely that Brian doesn't end up walking out with
the title. But but the you know, talking about Vince's tendencies, we
all know he likes to send the crowd home happy, especially at WrestleMania,
So I think that definitely is working in Brian's favor. Yeah, And I
mean John Fermarini was on was last week or two weeks ago XWW Creates Team
member in tw thousand nine, twenty ten, and he had I think it
was Let's ride in fact, and he predicted or thought that, yeah WrestleMania,
that Daniel Bryan Will would not be in the title match. This was
before Ron Monday, and that they would stretch it out to maybe have him
win at SummerSlam and not give the fans, you know, that victory.
Now, that was before he was added to the title match, and John
may have changed his viewpoint based on that structure, but I think under normal
circumstances, I would say, yeah, you know, they'll find a way
to go with Batista, you know, and then drag it out and have
Daniel Brian at extreme rules, maybe a rematch one on one because maybe Randy
Orton and Batista together work against Brian, and then that'll stretch out to SummerSlam,
and that's when Brian on the year anniversary of beet and Seen and winning
the title, he'll win. And I could still see that happening. But
my fear, and I think Vincent manager Blade should have a healthy fear of
this too, is fans went through that once before already this fall, and
I just don't know that fans want to go on that ride again. I
think historically, when baby faces chase the title and get screwed over and never
get that win, there's a moment, there's a point in time where fans
lose face, blame the promotion, or just get frustrated and two n out
and that happened with the Road Warriors in Chicago with Tully and Arn where there
was a dusty finish, they won the titles and had it taken away.
In fact, just last night I was watching some vintage Holk Cogan a WA
footage for my collection, and you know, Hogan time after time looked like
he had won the title from Nick Bockwinkle. This was, you know,
when Hoko Mania was fully formed before he went to the WWF, and just
one one excuse after another and all the title matches he ended up not with
the championship. And it got to the point where Wally Carbo came out on
a WATV and said, Holk Coogan's felt like he's let the fans down and
he doesn't know if he's ever gonna come back, and we need to have
a writing campaign to encourage Halkogan to come back and let him know he hasn't
let us down. Of course, he was just making a lot of money
in Japan that month and that's what the campaign was for. But nevertheless,
like they had to kind of string the fans along because Verne didn't want to
give Hulk the belt. It's it's so ironic because it's a complete slip of
Vince in terms of attitude, because Dern wanted somebody who looked more like Brngania
Nickbockwinkle, Rick Martell, you know, more traditional king guy, not a
big muscle head, and here Vince wants a big muscle head on top.
That's why I wanted Luger, That's why I wanted Batista, or wanted Batista
to work out. But you do end up with diminishing returns at some point,
and you can drag it out too long. And that's that's my concern
with not just giving Brian that that triumphant moment at the very end of WrestleMania
Beata the odds and then you just have an angle where Batista goes crazy and
you get heat on Batista, he gets the title match, Triple H is
freaking out and and it's three four months, but he's to try to chase
down Daniel Brian and that's your summer. I think that's better because I just,
David, don't think fans want to watch another series of screw jobs that
Daniel Brian comes out on the short end of. I agree with you,
and you know I defended WW a lot over the past six months, but
but I agree that at this point, you know the hardest thing. I'm
sure you you have the same feeling when you're writing about WW and I,
you know, and the fans I know feel the same way. But the
hardest thing is in this kind of twenty four hour wrestling world where there's you
know, just live programming, so you know, like you know how six
hours a week and then and then on Sunday, I mean, then you
know, one Sunday a month, is that it's really hard to wrap your
mind around the arc of the story. You know, you don't have to
know how it's fins how it you know how it's going to end, but
you kind of like to feel like you know what page you're on in the
book a little bit, and and it's you know, back in the old
days it was it was different. You know, It's like you knew that
you knew that the feud was going to end at Starkad or whatever, whether
or not you're you're I came out on top. So it's you know,
and I think that this does feel like the like the appropriate ending or an
appropriate you know, big moment in the in the storyline. And the only
way that I could see them pulling it off would be to you know,
have Triple H screw Brian somehow and then say you know, you don't get
any more title matches till SummerSlam, and you know, kind of like put
a moment out there and say that, you know, just to kind of
give us the idea that that it'll come back around. But I don't think,
I don't know how that could really happen. I mean that just it
just seems it just seems really unlikely. I yeah, I mean I'm just
trying to I mean, you know, I'm sure there's a way that they
could do it. I mean someone suggested, I think probably just someone tweeted
me or whatever. I mean, I've heard a lot of different possible finishes
do Mania just you just you know, fantasy booking, not not scoops,
and I can a lot of them makes some sense. Like I could imagine
if you know, if you know, Brian was so beaten down from the
first match, and then somehow, you know, Batista pins Orton for the
title, leaving in Brian's not even you know, involved in the finish,
and that gives him mistake for the you know, forgetting the first match against
Fatista. Like there are ways that you can book this that would make sense
and not be burying Brian by any stretch. But you know, as I
said, as you said, this feels like the ending, you know,
and it feels like at least a moment that they need to be they need
to they need to acknowledge it to some degree. That said, you know,
they've been making a lot of hay of like really really stringing this out,
and uh, you know, all of your historical example was a really
good ones. You know, I wrote I wrote a couple month or two
ago comparing Brian to Dusty just because you know, we all look back so
fondly on that Dusty Horseman feud. But but you know, Dusty was getting
the Daniel Brian treatment pretty much the whole time. Uh, you know,
we all look back so fondly on Dusty getting his leg broken in the ring
and his arm broken in the parking lot, and like, if that happened
at Daniel Bryan today, people would be, you know, showing up in
Stanford to beat up Triple h or something. But it would be you know,
it's but there's a reason why, you know, the Dusty Finish has
such a bad rap, and it's because you're holding something out there to your
fans, and you know, willingly, you're deliberately misleading them and not having
the balls to just go through with what you you know, what you know
they want to do. And I mean and and you know you're trying to
have your cake and eat it too. And that's not uh, you know,
forgive me for the for for that overused phrase, but that's exactly what
it is. And you know it's it's not uh, you know, they
should they shouldn't be running their operation that way, especially not on the biggest,
biggest show of the year. But yeah, and and and by the
way that I love what you said about Ghania and Vients having completely different ideas
about what they wanted for champions. The best part is how blind, how
blind they both were the whole thing too. How Verne was just like willfully
blind to the fact that everybody, and you know, everybody was cheering for
Hogan and this might have been actually a good way to make some money,
and Vents for a decade was blind to the fact that nobody bought Hogan as
an underdog. I mean, I guess we did because we were kids,
but you know, they're just like so it was it was just so yes,
very much so. It's history repeats itself, but in different ways in
surprisingly different ways sometimes, so it's pretty cool. All right, Well,
let's, uh, let's talk about how people can get your book for free,
David. And first, why don't you talk about your book and uh
and let people know what it's all about. They don't just have to get
it free from audit from Audible and the deal well we're about to offer.
They can also pick it up in bookstores or order it online. But talk
about the book and and what type of fan you think would enjoy it and
why hopefully all kinds of wrestling fans would enjoy it. You know, it
started off and it's very formative stages. It was this that the series I
was writing way back for Deadsman called Dead Wrestler of the Week. That was
just a series of kind of essays about my favorite wrestlers, my childhood idols,
and most I mean all the ones I wrote about had had died way
too young. I mean, we're all familiar with that. With that series
of events. When it started turning into a book, it sort of evolved
into a you know, a bigger, you know, more full fledged history
of pro wrestling in America. And it's not exactly one or the other it's
somewhere in the middle. There's a lot of history going back all the way
to you know, the carnival side shows and at the early early parts of
the twentieth century on through till you know, pretty much the modern day.
But you know, all the esdays are are most of the essays, I
should say, are focus on one wrestler, and most of those guys are
dead. But that's just sort of the way of the world. But you
know, I think it's for all kinds of people. It's for for everybody,
you know, for for people whose brothers stopped watching wrestling when they were
twelve, and it's for hardcore fans too hopefully, So appreciate anybody that checks
it out. Very cool. The way to get access to an audio version
of The Squared Circle for free is to sign up at audibletrial dot com slash
Pro Wrestling Torch. Besides David Schuemaker's book, there are also all Right,
let's go to the phone lines, David and see what our callers have to
say. Our phone number, if you want to get in line on the
phone banks is six four, six, seven to one, nine to eight
to weight and I am weight Keller progressing torch but owinning US mid show.
David Chumaker of brant Land dot com, the progesst and columnist for that ESPN
website affiliate, is my guest today on Interview Friday. Let's begin in Eric
code nine five two. Would be ipmember. Please state your name and where
you're from. I'm Brian and I'm from Minneapolis, Minnesota. Great, Brian,
Thanks for Colin. What have you got for David to meet a day?
Two quick questions for you and possibly a third little quick one. But
you guys are talking about it at the jump of the show, which was
the WWE always trying to co opt and own these things, and I think
that's detrimental overall because they're basically the cool they're trying to be the cool parents,
and in the end that always results in rejection. So when the nWo
came out and was like the outsider element of it, it was super hot,
but as it got co opted and owned over time, and eventually the
Flat Nuts version with Jeff Jarrett was a round no one cared. So my
WWE trying to own these things and not let them live somewhat organically. And
I'm not saying they can't make money on merchandise, but making these hashtags and
having all this stuff I feel really diminishes the authenticity. Bray, let me
ask you this before I throw it David for his sus would they how do
you think WWE could have handled things better at this point to still kind of
steer things in the way that fans wanted. Yeah, I mean these guys,
I mean, you know Vincent company love to pitch off all the time
that they are big in social media. They could have done it in an
unorthodox spiral way. That's a huge thing on the internet that sent them discovery
ownership for the audience. Hey, guys, I found this video for the
cover board that got huge thing even though it was fake. It's something like
that where fans get to feel like they own it and they're not being sold
it or given it, and that gives ownership and that makes the moment when
Daniel does win all the better for the fans who feel like they're invested in
it more than if they just buy a product. I don't know how to
put it. I felt it as a kid with the nWo That's how I
see it. Where I mean, I knew it was owned by WCW book
that there was that great ground. They never try to control. It is
always a toss fight between the two of them. Basically, yeah, David,
what do you think about that guy? Yeah, you know. Funnily,
I actually we talked about this a little bit on on my podcast Cheap
Heat this week, and and I and and Rosenberg used the cool dad metaphor
two. Uh it really it really does feel that the way a lot of
the time. And I was saying that they should just put w you know,
I I was like, they should have, they should have if Brian
wins, they should have, you know, t shirts printed up that just
say finally on it and put it and just have and have and have guys
like WWE employees selling them out of a van in the parking lots as if
they're bootlegged. But that's, you know, sort of an example of what
he's talking about, that like, there are viral ways to do this,
and w W has this weird tension between uh trying new cool things and and
and being sort of willfully blind to them. And I think a lot of
that has to do with how much of the stuff trickles all the way up
to the top, you know. Vince Vince's is never has never been one
for subtlety, and I think specifically right now, you know, with WrestleMania
just a few weeks away, they they you know, there's an increased effort
to sort of hammer everything down, own everything and make everything really really clear
to like the six year old kids that are watching it, you know.
I mean, there's there's this isn't the time of year for subtlety in particular,
but that is that I totally agree, Like I totally agree. I
wish that they would find ways to do things a little bit more intelligently.
I mean, it's it's my it's mind bodeling to me that you can go
on you know, shop ww shop and find shirts that only exist for the
sake of irony and then then watch a product that it's like almost entirely devoid
of irony, you know. I mean, it's it's there's a weird need
an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts. Will come join me Alan
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Paradise. And then I find an interview to David that that WWE has kind
of created this monster and I'm not saying it did not exist before. Bruce
Mitchell, towards Senior Columnists, before he started writing about wrestling professionally, was
a man who attended a lot of shows front row and he was He and
his group of fans were very hard on baby faces that they felt were getting
over pushed or didn't deserve their spots, and and you know, Ricky Morton
hated them and Sting hated them, you know, for the things that they
were channing, and they were very ironic. They were pretty much regarded as
the first well known group among wrestlers in any territory. I'm sorry, they
were the first group of fans who were well known among wrestlers in any territory
anywhere, who kind of had a reputation among wrestlers for that kind of ironic
channing. And so it's been around. It just so happens. Bruce Mitchell
was part of a group that are kind of the pioneers of it as far
as we have been able to track down. And you had when when Rick
Flair was fired, Ben Jim Hurt, you know, actually John Hitchcock was
part of front resection d held up the sign famously on television while sitting next
to Bruce Mitchell. We've heard enough and and that became a big thing,
and fans just organically were very upset when Rick Flair was gone because he was
the home you know, the home team starting quarterbacks so to speak, who
jump to the rival team WWF and they blame management for it, and that
goes back to the early nineties. So this kind of thing's been around,
but with that as a premise, and I wanted to set that up because
it kind of works against my point, but I want to acknowledge it.
WWE, I think has made it worse by and they've gotten better about it
lately. But they kept telling the fans it's all about you. John Cena
would say it. Vincmc mann would say it's deep McMahon. We are here
to entertain you. They would say that, and it was just I just
my jaw dropped when they said it, because no, you're there to fight
and win titles. It's just inherently entertaining. You shouldn't have to tell us.
It's like when you stand out there and you say, are we entertaining
or I hope we entertained you tonight. You're telling the fans start looking at
the product critically with a critical eye and start thinking in a way that it
shouldn't even cross your mind to think, which is have they done what I
want them to do for me to be the most entertained, Because then when
you do that, you set up a whole fan base with a mindset that
isn't I want to watch things unfold and cheer for the good guys and boof
for the guys I don't like for whatever reasons, I don't like them,
And instead you have them sit around going what would I have rather seen?
What would I have rather had them say? To make me happier, as
if it's all about each individual person deciding what is best for their entertainment and
www by doing that, having fans vote for stipulations in matches, which I
think is kind of stupid because a stipulation should happen for a reason, and
it should be decided by smart people who are trying to create an even playing
field or give a chance for us or to get deservative revenge. And when
you just let the fans vote for the match that will quote most entertain them,
you kind of take away the whole reason give it matches even started,
which is we're going to build a cage to keep interference out so the baby
face has an even chance against the heel, etcetera, etcetera. Same with
Lumberjack matches, a heel kept getting counted out intentionally we're gonna stop that vibing
lumberjacks. You don't have a lumberjack match because fans think it'll entertain them.
You have a lumberjack match because it's to keep the heel for running out and
getting intentionally counted out. So, in other words, what I'm saying is
WWE created this beast. They gave the fans this idea that it's up to
you to decide who you like the best, and we should have to listen
to you because we're all here to entertain you, not decide who the best
wrestler is, and you just all are along for the ride. So that's
speaking of irony. That's what I find ironic, because I think WWE kind
of created this monster we've seen the last couple of years, last several years.
Yeah, I think that they definitely played a hand in it. I
mean, I think that part of it was just the sort of you know,
natural evolution of a fan base that that you know, reads a lot
of stuff on the Internet that they you know, they have a lot of
knowledge that they wouldn't have necessarily had you know that many ten, twenty thirty
years ago. But you know, but it's true. I mean, you
know, you can look at it from both sides. With a guy like
Fandango, who I think, uh, you know, was disserved by both
the WWE and the fans to a certain extent, because you know, the
fans latched on to his to his theme song and we're singing along with it
like crazy, and WWE said, oh, look these you know, the
the sorts of fans are super into this guy, and let's let's give him
a really big push out of the gate. And you know, you know,
no one stopped to think that, no one could really take him seriously
at that point because he was doing such kind of a silly gimmick. But
at the same time, I think, you know, the fans who were
who were over engaging in that way or doing a disservice to guys like Daniel
Bryan. I honestly think WWE, you know, could look at Fandango and
say, well, they were into him too, you know, when when
when Brian's getting all these yes chants, so you know, it's it cuts
both ways. But but uh, but I definitely think you're right. I
mean, I think that that ww UH has invited this this this sort of
chance. I mean, I forgot who said it, but like, uh,
last week, you know, Monday before last when they were in Chicago,
when when when Brian was lying on the ground at the end of the
show and the fans were just booing like crazy. You know, Triple H
and Stephanie didn't walk back into the in the in the dressing room and say
like, oh God, I wonder why they were so mad. I mean,
they must have been ecstatic because the fans were really engaged. You just
have to figure out how to take that engagement and make it actually worthwhile and
make it you know, you know, if the fans are going to freelance
like that, then you have to find you have to turn the storyline so
that they're channing appropriately sort of, and and you know, with putting Brian
in the main event is certainly one way to do that. Yeah, you
would written. I guess that is it. So thanks everybody, Thanks Jason,
Thank you. Well, I mean I think there's always going to be
a lingering problem with the announcers. I mean, just to take that in
isolation, you know, I mean, you probably know about this stuff better
than me, but but you know, I've gotten the weird impression over the
over the years that that the really irritated the most irritating hashtagging and whatever,
you know, touting and sweeting and whatever. Stuff that Cole says is not
some like, you know, widespread. I mean, the corporation at large
does not love this either. It's just it's a very particular set of voices
that are that are pushing that sort of stuff. And it does just sort
it does come off his phony. And I think that Michael Cole, who
you know, think of him whatever you want, but he's a lot better.
I mean, he's actually very good at his job when he's when he's
doing is well, he can be very good at his job. And when
he's doing all that touting and tweeting stuff, that's that is his job.
I mean he's doing an okay job of that. But it's uh, I
mean whatever, I mean, as good as he is, it's it feels
inauthentic. And that's not on him. It's just like a such a weird
almost non sequitur when it when he comes out with it, and and and
I think that will continue to be a problem. You know, I mean
basically everything that Lawler says, uh, that's not a non sequitur. Is
just sort of grading at this point to me, and that's coming and that's
I'm speaking of someone who you know, he was my first idol. I
grew up watching Memphis Wrestling every Saturday. But but yeah, I mean,
I guess that to the to the larger point, you know, it's always
going to be co opted. That's just sort of the nature of the beast.
But I think that I think that it's just it it does for for
a lot of fans. And I wrote that, you know that that comment
that you're that you referenced sort of from the point of view of of you
know, the most diehard Daniel Bryan fans. I think for for uh,
for for a lot of those fans who have been waiting for so long,
it's just sort of all happening so quickly now, especially after what's happened in
the past couple of weeks. And and it's awesome to see Brian in the
position that he's in. But there's always but there's always going to be that
little that that feeling of of distaste or even discussed that you know, your
favorite indie rock band just got number one hit single. You know that it's
that it's that, Yeah, and I think that that that's a really natural
reaction, you know, everybody. I mean, one of the greatest,
one of, if not the greatest, things about Daniel Bryan was feeling like
you were part of this kind of secret handshake club that that like gets wrestling
on a very certain level. And uh and you know people would if he
and up being the quote unquote face of WWE for any serious run. I
think there's going to be a lot of a lot of you know, internal
conflict amongst a lot of fans who don't know quite quite how to how to
swallow it. You know, he's he's he's the least corporate champion of all
time, but he's still going to be that guy. So it'll be interesting.
Yeah. Yeah, Well, Brian, let me Trow write too,
because you brought the subject up. Anything to add or any new topics.
Thanks for the no the inside that guy. That was fabulous. My other
question I wanted to throw at you was back to the backside of things in
the company, and it's it's Vince McMahon's obsession with Hollywood and the legitimacy he
steals it will bring to him and that is his biggest achilles heel is that
fact that he needed to be legitimized. And he would even bring in Freddie
Frinz Junior with you know What's movie to do? She's all that, and
he gets to write Monday Night Roz and he gets the pitch ideas that everyone
else would have been fired for likely or at least vanished to the corner of
the room. And Vince's there chuckling because he needs that adulation. And I
just find that to be the most funniest of things that he wants to get
out of Odd the Nickelodeon. And it's, in my opinion, is what
makes him is his greatest weakness. And I just want to hear your guys'
thoughts on it. Sure, sure, yeah, Bran, I think David,
we've seen from the beginning of intook Man taking over WWE that there was
a shame for the business he was in, and we've seen Stephanie with that.
When when Stephanie got more control in the early two thousands, it became
a lot of what WWE did became about bringing in Hollywood writers, the ones
that they could get who were willing to work for non union in a non
union situation, but coming from sitcoms that that made them feel like, you
know, we're a regular TV show, and you know, they introduced a
year or two ago a showrunner, you know, and their agents became producers
and they're taking all these TV terms on. And we've seen that that undercurrent
of we're not pro wrestling promoters, where vinccmann for a while called himself that,
you know, or had other people call him the next Walt Disney,
and then it became well, we're sports entertainment, not pro wrestling. Now.
A lot of it was smart because they had to reposition themselves for national
ad campaigns, and part of this was Dick Eversol saying, here's a language
we need to use to make this product palatable with NBC executives, to get
you on Saturday nights. Made event. I'm not ignorant of that, but
Vince McMahon, at times when he didn't have to, continues to and his
family Stephanie two kind of run away from wanting to be known as just pro
wrestling promoters. Thus the Leyland Sugar Ray Leonard fight, thus the XFL,
thus the World Nightclub, and trying to do a record label right on the
verge of Napster making that just a really bad idea. You know, all
these forays into other places and other things. Part of it is just smart
business diversification. But part of it, I think undeniably, if you've studied
Vincent Mann and his psyche is not wanting to just be the most successful pro
wrestling promoter of his generation. That hasn't been enough, And there does seem
to be a little bit of a mark. It's ironic, David, because
they kind of mark out for somebody from Hollywood who's willing to come in and
grace and and have their presence graced by Hollywood royalty. And sometimes it seems
a little beneath them and kind of like a clingy girlfriend or something, who
is you know, like, oh, please come endorse us. What do
you think about point Brian made and what I kind of just said there,
I mean, I think it's most I think it's mostly undeniable. I mean,
well, the one thing I will say kind of in defense of the
the Hollywood writer system is that you know, that stuff started coming along at
a time when they when they you know, I mean they were really writing
scripts and and like and having all this live programming for the first time.
Uh, and you know, a lot of fans have over the years said,
you know, this storyline's terrible, why don't they just put Dusty Rose
in charge of writing or whatever? And you know, there's been a lot
of great bookers who were former wrestlers, but there haven't been a lot of
wrestlers that have experienced, uh, you know, writing one hundred and four
scripts the year, you know, I mean, that's that's that's the sort
of that's the sort of thing that we're like, being a Hollywood writer actually
has an advantage and most of the guys who have come from Hollywood or wrestling
fans or why else would they have taken that job. You know, I
think it more more it reflects on the sort of top of the food chain
and the inability to steer those people into you know, better directions at times.
But you're absolutely right about the rest of the stuff. The you know,
WW films has been you know, even when they're focusing on wrestlers has
been that way, and the music and certainly the XFL like you know,
all the stuff you mentioned. It's it's undeniable that Vince has this, has
this. I mean, who knows if it's embarrassment with wrestling, or if
it's you know, and if it's a thing where he wants to be able
to talk about what he's doing besides wrestling with his buddies at the country club,
or if it's just you know, a desire to keep doing bigger and
better things. It certainly has hurt the product over the years. I mean
it's kind of hard. It's it's interesting to be talking about this around WrestleMania
time, because it's hard to make the case that the that the you know,
crossover stars and that sort of thing you know, isn't a good isn't
a good thing at least for WrestleMania. I mean, it's what's made is
what made WrestleMania in a lot of ways. Yeah, again, David's it's
not really binary, like all celebrities are bad or all celebrities are good.
I think what we're saying, I think all of us are saying, is
we want them to have an appropriate level of recognition of when it's good for
business to have that tie in versus when they just seem like they're go just
there's starry eyed over Oh my god, Freddy Prince Junior is on our writing
team. This makes us so legit Yeah, like you want them to have
a little more dignity and a little more pride that we were not looking to
be legitimized by B level actors and and guest hosts who, as John Fermrini
said, all they want to do is just have a fake match and wrestles.
It's like Jay Leno did a night you know, during the Nitro era,
Okay, and so yeah, it's sort of like there's times where it
absolutely has made sense to have celebrities there, but you want WWB to like
not seem like they're they're they're just graced by that being able to have somebody
cool actually join them. Totally agree, I mean, I completely agree with
all that. The one thing, I mean, one thing that I'll say,
uh, and this is totally speculative, but if there's if there's one
really great thing that could I mean if there I think there's many, but
one really interesting thing that might come out of the ww network is if you
know, Vince really does I mean, if this affects the way that other
I mean that other media companies operate, then maybe Vince will be happy to
be a wrestling promoter for the first time in a long time. Yeah,
yeah, all right, let's go to ourn ext phone call if you want
to get in line. The number is six four six seven to one nine
A two eight. David Shoemaker of grant Land dot com, an author of
The Squared Circle, is my guest today on Interview Friday on the PW Torch
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Who yes, So follow that story as it develops at mmatorch dot com or
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through Patreon. Anyway, let's go back to wwe Talk here and go to
our next caller and go to area code seven seven three on deck by the
way, five seven zero seven seven three. Thanks for joining me. Please
state your name and where you're from. Boris from Chicago, Hey, Bors,
what have you got for David? Today? I was listening to you
guys, and I just want to I answered this question on the you know,
on previously on the others Hi on the other show, and we are
getting the course, we are getting complaints for people asking the same question day
after day, So try to spin it originally, just use a different adjective.
That'll be good enough. All right, Well, that's what I try
to do. What I had asked was that since we didn't seen the show
in Chicago, and we've seen the show in the show where the Memphis what
Danny Bryant got is Tyler's shodey, which one would you have preferred if if
this was done, you know, without the way we had to get there
Chicago, or like you're saying, bors, would it have been more interesting
to have Monday show this week in Chicago? Yeah? Okay, well that
that is an interesting scenario, yeah, David, you know, because I
mean, cities are different, you know, and sometimes they change event to
event. Minneapolis is actually kind of unpredictable in what kind of makeup they're going
to have it. It really depends on Minneapolis will fill you know, eighty
percent of eighty to one hundred percent of Target Center or Xcel Energy Center for
just about every show WW becomes with. But sometimes the crowd makeup is very
different depending on who's had a lot of product is. Other towns are just
very identified with having being somewhat passive and or being a little more pro Sena
or being very anti Sena. It's interesting, how would the show have been
different on Monday had through happenstance this everything script wise that was meant to play
out happened Monday, but in Chicago not Memphis. Huh, I mean,
I don't want to I I I'm reluctant to give WW too much credit,
but this is the sort of thing that they actually probably uh would would have
been very aware of. It would have been awesome for Brian to have that
moment in Chicago. But the week I mean, but if it had happened
two weeks ago, I mean, wwe might have saved Brian. They may
have may have totally saved Brian because if he had gotten drowned out by punk
chance. Just imagine what would have happened, you know, the fact the
way that the way that it happened in Memphis with it where they had a
little bit more control. I think was you know, the very w W
way to do it, but it also was was a really smart way.
I think that they, you know, were really I mean, I thought,
this is not a personal opinion, they were really hamstrung by Punk walking
out and by having that show in Chicago. And you know, you can
look at that entire show and just watch the way that they built it be
completely about crowd reaction, you know, I mean from Hayman coming out at
the beginning on, they were just doing everything they could to rest some sort
of control out of that. But yeah, I don't know, I'm interested
in what you think. I mean, I think I don't think that Brian
would have gotten killed by Punk chance, but they had to be cognizant that
that was a possibility. Yeah, And you know the feeling I got coming
out of the Chicago events, and some people have have disagreed with this,
and I mean I respect that. I think it's open for interpretation, but
I feel pretty firmly Monday in Chicago, we could go money in Chicago showed
that, Yeah, Chicago loves Sea On Punk. But I think a lot
of fans realized Punk quit management didn't fire him. They didn't refuse to renew
his deal. Punk walked out months before his contract go was up, and
I don't think people be grudged Punk doing it because they I think people have
faith and Phil Brooks that that if if that's something he felt he had to
do, there had to be good reason, and so we'll respect that.
And he's not talking publicly. He's not complaining about WWE. He's not going
out there and airing his laundry and talking about, oh, I've got this
personal issue or oh I'm burned out. He just told Vince I can't do
it anymore. Whatever happened beyond that closed door, walked out and for the
most part kept to himself other than you know, being hanging out at the
Cool Kids table with Dana White at usc and now doing the Talking Dead show
this Sunday night. But other than that, you know, he's not really
doing a lot publicly. He's not talking about it, and I think fans
in even in Chicago, thought, well, if Punk doesn't want to be
here, we got Daniel Bryan. I don't think Chicago fans are exclusively Punk
fans more than Daniel Brian just because Punk is their guy, especially when it
seems like Daniel Brian wants to be there and Punk doesn't. And by the
way, I'm not saying anything I don't think Punk would disagree with because Punk
himself David had said this is Daniel Bryan's time, and I think part of
punk leaving might have had to do with the idea. And again I think
it's it's just a small contributing factor, but it was sort of like,
do I want to overstay my welcome or stay long enough where it's clear that
I've been passed up by not just maybe Daniel Bryan, but the Shield,
the White Family in terms of wrestlers who are being booked well with upsides,
and it's kind of exciting to see the trajectory. I think Punk sort of
saw himself on a trajectory and maybe was a few months ahead of the curve
of thinking I'm cooling off. I don't want to be around to be cold.
I want to walk out before that happened. So I'm introducing too many
things here, but I think the Chicago fans might have been okay being there
an eyewitness to exactly what happened on Monday, and I don't know that they
would have drawn out Daniel Bryan because I think Chicago see On Punk fans are
also Chicago Daniel Brian fans. Yeah, I agree with that, but I
also Bean, but down in that particular Monday, I think that they,
you know, they were a lot of people thought that he could have been
coming back, and so it was you know, yeah that I mean,
I think if they were back in Chicago this Monday, then then it would
be a wholehearted support for Daniel Bryan. You're right here, You're right,
Wight. Let me, David, I hate don't, but let me,
I mean, clarify what you're saying. I think it's a great point that
I wasn't thinking of. Fans were still thinking maybe CM punk would be taking
on Triple H. So as soon as you established that Daniel Bryan's taking on
Triple H and then the winner got the title shot, you're saying that would
do what the opposite of what ww we wanted to do to in Chicago,
which is give fans hope to the very last minute that seem Punk might show
up. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think they, I mean,
they were they were well, I mean, I don't know how much they
wanted fans to think that but that was certainly the way it felt. Yeah.
Yeah, but but it's a you know it that that was that was
a that was a high wire act that week and U and you know it
will all be talking about it for I mean, I don't know for a
long time. I mean, I think you're right that, I mean that
fans are are you know, I mean, it gonna be gonna be you
know, they're they're not gonna they're not gonna punish Daniel Brian going forward for
for for not being CM Punk. I mean, I think you're right.
Everybody kind of has a grasp on what's going on, uh and that Punk's
not coming back, and that Punk had his reasons or whatever. I mean,
I think I wrote this. I know I think Punk personally it is
just my feeling kind of had a vision for like he always has about how
he thinks is the next year of his career should go. And I think
that when the WrestleMania, you know, when the when the match plan sort
of came down the pipeline, I think that he realized the first time that
he wasn't going to get kind of a victory lap for his last six months,
that he probably would be putting other people over for his last six months
as anybody else would. And I think that that kind of hit him and
and you know, hit him hard, and and and and and led him
to rethink some things because you know, everybody goes out on their back,
or most people do, but you know, in the modern WW, you
kind of go out on your back for for for five or six months,
you know, until uh, you know, they they still certainly keep using
you, just like they would you know, use Jericho every time he comes
back. But uh but you know, it's not like they don't. They
don't have much vested interest in putting you over if if you don't have a
contract, you know that to stick around for a while. So you know,
I think, yeah, I think we're saying the same thing though,
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It would have been interesting to find out if
fans would be willing to embrace Daniel Bryan in Chicago, if it was driving
home the finality that Punk will beer. I thought that wwe wanted to have
that hope alive to the very end, even was because Paul Hayman's saying Punk
isn't here is basically guaranteeing Punk is there. I mean, Paul Hayman is
not knowing yet the truth teller. So like I just I love that it's
like cmpunk is not in the building. And I thought that was their way
of having kind of, as you said, having their cake and eating it
too, which is we told you he wasn't here, but we had Hayman
say it, which means he probably is here, and maybe the Paul Hayman
character doesn't know he's here, and that's our cover. And up to the
very end, I mean, the whole main event looked like it was set
up for cmpunk to run in and tryan and so I do think they wanted
to keep the fans not I think the moment that the fans felt one hundred
percent Punk wasn't there. If they had done anything in the middle of the
show to do that, or even the last half hour, I think fans
might there was fear that the fans might have gotten unruly. Now I don't
think that crowd was as worked up as the quote underground Internet movement made it
seem like it was going to be. I think the crowd, the vast
majority of the fans in Chicago were there to see the shield and the White
family and a lot of them are there to cheer John Cena because they're John
Cena fans, and a lot of them are part of the Daniel Bryant movement,
Yes, movement, and we just kind of overestimated because of the summer
of punk that it's just always like that in the vast majority of fans in
Chicago are all these frenzied seeing punk fans wanting to hijack a show. I
thought it turned out to be a tamer crowd then it could have been or
that WWE feared it was, and I thought it was mostly fans who were
Daniel Bryan and John Cena and Shield fans, not Punk fans. So I
think but WW, I think was right to be prepared for fans freaking out
if it became one hundred percent clear Punk wasn't running in at the end.
I thought, to the last ten seconds Punk might run in. John Javerni
on Twitter said, I guarantee a hundredercent Punk's going to run into the main
events, you know, within the last ten minutes. Then he talked about
that last Friday. He was just wrong. So I think they and that's
I think what was really you know, you call it a highera activit.
I thought it was really smart to give fans hope to the end so that
they didn't have a chance to kind of organize and rebel and kind of screw
up whatever they wanted to accomplish otherwise. Yeah, I think I think that
that's that makes a lot of sense. I mean I kind of lumped it
in with with with the Rumble and in the way that they you know,
it wasn't as it wasn't as as clear cut as the way you know,
you were rightly talking about Chicago Raw. But you know, I think that
they at the Rumble they projected Daniel Bryan to be the thirtieth entry just by
not talking about it, you know. I mean, it was that same
thing, by like they were kind of going against the unwritten rules of how
you do a wrestling show or abiding by them, and then and then pulling
the rug out from under the end. And but that couldn't have been on
purpose. I mean, maybe I don't think that was on purpose, and
so that's how I had lumped in the Chicago pump thing. But I think,
but what you're saying makes a lot of sense that they were risking a
sort of full fledged revolt if they had done it. Uh, you know,
if they if they had been clearer about it. But that's the you
know, that's the hard thing. Like how do you tell I mean and
I'm not even talking about you know, avoiding a riot, but like literally,
how do you tell that crowd that CM punk isn't going to be there
and have them believe it. I don't think there's any way any way to
do it. Yeah, I mean, you're right about about Hayman's role,
but like, you know, I mean, what if, like Lillian Garcia
said, it would have been more legitimate, if Triple Ahent said it would
have been more legitimate. I mean I think that if you say it,
you're automatically calling it into question. Uh. And if you don't say it,
then it seems like they're leading them on even more, you know,
So it's weird. I think CM punk could have shown up, like uh,
done a tout video of himself at an NBA game that night across the
country and wwe could have played it and fans would still think that that guarantee
he's in the building because they I would have that would have been that.
I mean, there's no way to convince some fans it wasn't gonna happen.
Let's go to a couple of other phone calls here, and who did I
say? It was? Next? Five to seven? Oh? On five
to seven? Oh, please state your name and where you're from. Larry,
Hey, Larry, thanks for calling. What have you got for David
and me today? I'll be going on late days. A new VIP member
by the way, Oh great? Do you like it? Yeah, I've
been going through the website there there's so much content, like kind of overwhelmed.
Actually, yeah, yeah, I know. It's I literally had somebody
say yesterday he put off going VIP for a couple of years because he felt
like it would just take over all his other podcasts and his life and all
that, and but he finally gave in. And now he said his trips
to the gym are going to be more frequent because he's gonna have to keep
up on the audio. He's really liked so far. But yeah, I
have to tell people pw torch dot com slash go vip searching for more great
pro wrestling talk, then join me. Jason Powell, host of the three
weekly Pro Wrestling Boom podcast. Each week, he'll hear the latest news and
analysis for me and my team at Pro Wrestling NED along with other pro wrestling
media members. Plus the Pro Wrestling Boom podcast features long form interviews with notable
names in the pro wrestling industry. Subscribe and iTunes, Stitcher, Downcast,
and all your favorite secondary apps, or visit us directly at PW boom dot
com. Once again, that's PW boom dot coming back to you and thank
you for triggering beavel forgot to plug it. Yeah, I look forward to
checking out those paper views and seeing which one I want to watch that on
the network. That's not pretty cool. Yeah, I found my favorite thing
that you guys do. Man, it's really cool. Thank Yeah. I
know you called to do more than just trigger up plug as one as one
shareholder in WWE, I as a man that Daniel Bryant wins the WrestleMania Yeah,
because it's best for business? All right, all right, you got
add that line? Hey real quick, I'm watching the nineteen ninety three Rods
on the network, and when did they switch? When did they go to
arenas? Then when did they start going to the arena? Well, I
mean, r you're talking about it because they were in Manhattan Center at the
beginning. Yeah, that was about I mean I think they just went to
arenas at the next taping. But what they did mostly at that time because
they would ta tape ros every three or four weeks, they would do multiple
shows at once and then and they tended to stick to the Northeast where they
had traditionally done TV tapings because they it was a mentality and it's totally foreign
today, Larry, but the idea was, we're not going to draw a
big crowd for a TV taping. We got to save house shows for the
big arenas for TVs. Because it had kind of evolved slowly over time.
But TV tapings often were like the AWA used to do TV tapings at a
TV studio, you know, just next to the where the newscasts were done,
and they would have three rows of seats. David Eu reference Memphis earlier.
You know, the WMCTV studio was host to all the TV shows.
Because the idea was, we're not going to give away Maine event matches on
TV. We give away squash matches and a rare mid carter versus mid Carter,
and so we have to just go to smaller towns who are just happy
to see US, and part of it was the logistics of bringing the TV
equipment across the country too, so you'll see a lot of shows in you
know, Connecticut and Pennsylvania. I went to a raw taping twenty years ago
at bush Kill, Pennsylvania and what was essentially like a tent and so,
but you'll start to see roz at at smaller, mid sized market buildings as
as Rod progressed, it was only really during the Monday Night War when Vincent
Man was pushed into doing main event matches to compete with Nitro, which he
complained to me about having to do and how he still does it because it's
a different world, I guess with all the TV revenue. But then they
started going to the to the larger arenas and really shining them up. But
it was just kind of an evolution that you'll start seeing pretty quickly as they
air more of the older ones. Okay, because I was wondering, because
I'm on an episode nineteen right now, and I was just wondering when they
you know, it seems like they're in the same place. Yeah, no,
they go to some of the same places, but you're not going to
see even though good Giant arenas for a while, but you know, they're
still in places that can have hockey games. I mean, they're not all
just Manhattan Center type places. I don't think in those eight years. Weirdly,
men and Manhattan Center is bigger than it looks. But you're right,
it does seem like they just sort of like tape or they're taping multiple shows
at once. The only thing that changes is Vince's tracksuit and uh it but
it's you know, it's it's awesome to go back and look at it.
But you're right, it's crazy how much everything has changed. Yeah, yeah,
I love that. I love that because I mean I have all these
in my tape collection, Like people aren't gonna watch for some of the network
and I'm like, except for like these early eighties world class shows, Like
I have all of this and I've transferred them all the DVD and they're all
in my three ring notebooks, you know, all my you know, they're
all in my DVD cases. Like I I've had access to basically every Raw
since Raw aired. So but I'm excited because it makes reading about it in
the newsletter and our coverage of it at that time all the more relevant to
this whole new audience who now gets actually watch it and experience it. And
I know, as a fan, if I were doing that, I'd want
to go read what people were writing about it at the time because the coverage
of it in context in that moment it is different than looking back on it
in hindsight. So it's kind of fun to look at those back issues for
that reason. Yeah, I totally, I totally agree with that. It's
it's it's it's it's it's amazing to go back and watch his old raw is
just to be blown away. But it's weird to watch it without any kind
of without any kind of grounding in, like you know, the writing that
was going on. So it's awesome to have all that stuff. Yeah.
Yeah, and that the way angles were done, you know, it was
less frequent. I mean, I was watching an early eighties A w A
compilation last night, and you know, mister Sayto was there to honor Hulk
Hogan for winning the Japanese Championship, you know, the IBGP title from Antonio
and ok and and you know Hogan walked in the ring and bowed for mister
Sido and the mister Pido through salt at him. And stomped on him and
then Hogan's led and all the baby Faces run out to make the save and
that was There's four months of business, you know, that was it.
That was like the one that you know, AWA would do three four angles
a year, and that was one of them, and it carried the promotion
for a few months. So it's just, you know, the pacing of
everything is different, and it was different in the beginnings in the early years
of raw. The acceleration David, from the first raws to the Mona Night
War is probably faster change than at any other period. Yeah, totally true.
I mean it's amazing how much I mean, you know, and like
I said when I when I wrote my book, he goes way way back
and you know mostly you know all that history too, but it's it's amazing
how much of the wrestling industry that we know today is really only a product
of the past, you know, fifteen or twenty years. That's you know,
you were you were talking David about the writers who are wrestling fans and
they come in and write and I think what has frustrated the most hardcore of
hardcore fans, you know, not just the internet fans who are reading cut
and pay sites or going on some message board, and they're all kind of
their their own in their own little circle of experts. But like the hardcore
of hardcore fans, I mean, I'll self, what's the word I'm looking
for. It's self congratulatory. It's not self urriatory. There's no from other
core. But torch readers are an example of it. Observer readers are example
of it. People who really study the history of the business and reading a
long time, they look at these writers and go, I know, no
times more than these guys do because they think everything like they think there have
always been hell. Authority figures it's just the way wrestling works, and it's
like, no, it's actually a really bad idea except for Vince mc mann
and Steeve Austin, and it didn't happen before Vincent Man and Steeve Boston for
a very good reason. It completely screws up the premise of a pro wrestling
show, which is it's run by competent people who want to create an even
playing field, and you want to give fans hope that the baby face will
eventually win and they're not always gonna have the rug pulled out from under them,
and there's always an authority figure who's there to correct course when the heels
find a way to cheat. That's the way wrestling was always done before vinsic
Man and Steve Austin. But people who are writing for WWE think there's always
been authority figures and it's the way it has to be, not knowing it's
actually the exception of the rule, and it's only worked really once, and
every other time it's sort of worked against good business, and so that's kind
of that's the frustration in what you're saying is there's a lot of people who
think all the bad habits of the late nineties that they got away with because
Steve Boston was so over, the nWo is so over, and the production
values are great. They don't realize all these bad habits don't work unless you're
in a hot period that can kind of mask what bad, bad decisions of
these are. So are you saying that Dixie Carter is not your favorite personality
and professional wrestling right now? I'm I'm saying that a lot of Vicky Guarrew's.
I like Vicky Garrew, but you should be hell manager. You know
that the heal manager kind of became the GM. But yes, I am
saying I will I will be glad to say DICKX Carter's not my Yeah,
I mean I think that I I agree with it. I agree with what
you said. I think to a certain extent, the Evince the Vince angle
just left the genie out of the bottle and it's kind of hard to put
it back in. And I don't know, I agree that it's been overdone,
uh, pretty dramatically. But you know, there's an extent to which
these you know, we're we're we're smart fans for the most part, and
we know that there are owners and we know that they you know, play
a role in the day to day operation of wrestling, and so, uh,
you know, to ignore them, I think would be folly. But
the extent to which they've been used, you know, probably especially outside of
the w w S and WWE is uh is is it's excess obviously, and
even now, you know, I mean i' a lot of people would would
prefer to see less of the authority, although you know, they've done a
pretty good job with what they have. Yeah, I think that it's I
think it is really I don't I think it's easy to put the genie back
on the bottle because you just have a baby face authority figure and you stop
talking about ownership, or if you do, you stop having the owners be
complete assholes. You know, that was a big problem with with Stephanie's interview
in Chicago, where she's like, well, Daniel Brian, we're the only
reason we're here and there's a ring set up is because of us. And
when you buy a T shirt, you know, he's basically telling the fans,
when you buy a Daniel Brian T shirt, you're putting money in Stephanie
and Hunter's pocket our pockets first, Like, you don't tell fans that you
you don't introduce that to the show. It's like, it's like tell it's
like Fox introducing an NFL broadcast. Going. By the way, when you
watch this show, you're funding the far right cable channel. We hope you
know that. All you liberals like, why would you say that? It's
you don't need to say that. You should just have a board of directors
that have an authority figure who represents every authority figure that preaks that pre existed.
Vincent Man going heel in the mid nineties and you do what every successful
rescue quotes she ever did, which is have a Bill Watts or a Wally
Carbo or whoever as your Fritch Vne Eric in world class, whoever it is
you have. Sometimes they're known to be owners, sometimes they're not, but
they're good people who want an even playing field so that the baby Faces prevail
and the Heels are constantly fighting the system. You can do that starting tomorrow
without any problem. No, And but what the problem is is if USA
Network says we want some man's on TV as heels, that's the challenge because
that's what you're thinking. That everybody knows Hunter and Vincent staff own and run
the company. But if USA Networks wants them as heels on TV, how
do you combat that? Well, I tell USA Network, we're the promoters.
We know what we're doing. Please don't force us to do something that's
really stupid for business, which is telling all our fans when you buy tickets,
you're giving it to a bunch of assholes who don't like you and are
trying to hold back and screw over all the baby Faces that you like.
But when you buy their T shirt, we actually get richer. Like you
don't do that that's just no sense. You know. When I talked to
Trivia As whatever at SummerSlam, it was, uh, what what this didn't
make the interview, So this is a scoop. I actually thought this was
a great question to ask him. I was like, I said, uh,
you know, I know that you watch as a wrestler, You've probably
watched as much or more tape, you know than as anybody else, watching
old wrestlers and how they got over and all the little tricks of the trade.
And I was like, now that you're an authority figure, do you
go back and watch like Wally Carbo and Eddie Marlin tape and see how they
did it? And he was just like, no, not really. I
was like, Okay, that's that's all. Yeah, but yeah, I
mean it is funny, like I love those I love the old authority figures.
Uh, it would be great if there could be more of a balance.
And I think that it wouldn't surprise me if they're if they're if we
got to that point, you know, in the not too distant future.
I I you know, I mean, it wouldn't surprise me at all if
Triple As just sort of you know, faded out for the six months between
Mania and SummerSlam, just because you know, just to give some other things
to try. But I mean, I've been I've really been enjoying them.
I think it's I think it's uh, you know, I I agree with
like the with the like the literal and like kind of logistical issue with with
about fans not buying shirts. I've been overall really impressed at how at how
you know, how how good they've been at playing heel and it really you
know, you know, Triple H is not obviously has the reputation for not
showing ass, and he's not done that a lot. But you know,
I'm not going to say he's gone that far. But Monday they did.
But but he's been willing. Oh yeah, Monday he did. And and
he's been willing to he's been willing to really put himself out there like he's
he's been. He's gone out on a limb as far as just you know,
I mean, just David, you're the I think Stephanie, I want
to back up what you said, Like I thought Stephanie had one of her
best nights Monday night, Like she's really really good at playing the character.
And it would be a shame to not find a way if she wants to
be on TV, and you would say, neverwork wants to make men sensev
it'd be a shame to not find a place for her to have a role.
And then you have the conundrum, and that's what you're talking about,
which is, well, fans know she's you know, a prince owner,
and that's the challenge. But Mike, I guess my thinking is, if
Triple Ah was really good at juggling and he was the best juggler in the
world, if it made raw worse, I'm sorry, you don't get to
display that talent on raw because you're you're cutting ability to make money. So
because Hunter and Stephanie are good snide heels and everybody knows they're principal owners,
it doesn't mean that you screw up the whole premise of every wrestling company pre
Vince Vince Austin by having the wrestling company be evil. And it was even
more pronounced the money in Chicago when Stephanie was being nasty in the ring.
But they had that video for talking, as you know, in this cloying
fashion and about how, oh, it's just so wonderful that my kids because
we don't have a DVD player. Are my kids can now through the network
watch my grandpa and their pops wrestle in their prime, or you know,
be announcers like why is Stephanie being sweet in one segment within the show?
And then not? I don't I don't want to watch Kevin Spacey be a
nice person in the middle of a commercial break on House of Cards. It
takes out of the moment. I want to be immersed in the characters as
they're presented, and I thought that was really dumb. So I just think
there's a better way to do it. There's a way to recast it.
And I don't think you should ever portray the idea that the tickets that you
buy are going to a bunch of people who the only way their heel characters
work is if people really get mad at them. It's not all like,
well, I know it's a show, so I don't take it seriously.
Well, if you don't take the hell seriously, you're not going to be
excited to see them get beat up. The whole point is to immerse them
in that world and as believable of a fashion with as little interference, as
little noise as possible that contradicts the story you're telling. Therefore, you don't
want fans to think they're supporting a wrestling company run by a bunch of jerks
Like I just think that's a dilemma. You should avoid it all cost,
no matter how talented a heal you are. I agree with that. I'll
give you that one. Okay, sorry for RENDONH. Larry, you're still
with us? Anything else? Oh? I did yeah, real quick.
I guess I'll won't ask about this to do movie question. I did the
other day. But you were talking about Stephanie there. What the heck?
I'll ask all the four members can get mad at me in the movie,
the Scooby Doo movie. I bought it off Boodoo. Yeah, and they
have Vincon Triple H in it, and they have a girl in there that
you would think would be Stephanie, but then they introduced her as Richard.
I was just wondering, if you heard anything why she might have turned down
that far. Oh. I don't know, David, any insight on that.
I know nothing about it that I don't have a copy of it,
and I've been meaning to watch it and I failed as a wrestling writer.
I guess that's really intriguing though you had a chance to review Scooby Doo already
and you haven't done it. Shame on you. Yeah. No, I
mean I thought I thought it was gonna I mean I had I had a
column idea all worked out for it, and and this Daniel Bryant stuff sort
of preempted it. So yeah, yeah, now that happens, I understand.
All right, let's go to A six for next A six four.
Thanks for joining us, Please stay you Navid? Where you're from? Hey?
This is the Nick from Greenville, South Carolinta hey neck. Thanks for
calling. What have you got for David today? Yeah? The two quick
questions this is, I guess about the man event of Esselmania. I think
it's pretty obvious that Daniel's gonna go over on tiple h. Do you think
that they're putting I know they played on this earlier about you know, then
want they're ready to be happy as in the show, which is you know,
what's what should happen? My question is you think one of the reasons
that they're putting Brian and that main event is to possibly cut down on some
of the fisive workloads and see how can I put this in a nice way.
He can't go you know, he can't really go more than you know,
five and six cements without having to take a break. That's a good
point, David. Do you think do you think just the fear that Fatista
just at his age and condition wouldn't be able to have wrestle any worthy match
played into a little bit or a lot, the idea to make it a
three way to take some pressure of Batiste. That's an interesting Yeah. Well,
I mean I defended Batista at the beginning, not for anything else but
for the but for the the ring endurance, because you know, I mean
people are talking like he's just like dramatically out of shape, and you know,
who knows, maybe he is. But you know, in every professional
sport you hear this that you can be in really good shape. But but
it's a whole different thing to be in game shape, you know, I
mean, just to have that kind of to have your your endurance kind of
queued up to working in front of a live crowd with those really specific inner
you know, use of energy. But at this point, I think WWE
has to be worried about that. I mean, unless unless they're seeing house
shows where he's you know, doing thirty minute matches, then that has to
be a concern because you can't have your main event. You can't. You
just can't have that much of a variable in in the mid event at WrestleMania.
Yeah, And I will say I think had Batista come back in a
singles match that went fifteen minutes and people were dogging him, I would be
and Batista's side. I think the problem was he was in the rumble and
blew up, you know, within thirty seconds. Like and I'm not saying
he didn't have to do a lot on the roll, but I think people
look at that as like it didn't take him five minutes or ten minutes to
blow up in a one on one match where he got thrown in there.
It was in the rumble where you're kind of protected, and I think I
think that's where I'm normally I'm with you, Dave. I'm like, let's
not you know, let's respect that this is tough to do. You know,
like you're totally ryan. It's very hard to get ring shape or basketball
court shape by being on a treadmill. I think it's it's the unique setting
of the rumble. And then I think people were a lot harder on him
because they wanted Daniel Bryan to win. I mean, I think that was
it was kind of this, this this cocktail of everything that just came together
and boiled over, and part of it was Batista being winded, and part
of it was Batista's probably the guy who drove Punk into quitting. I think
some people think that, and he's the guy who's taken away the main event
from Daniel Brian too. Yeah, I agree with Ed. Yeah, you
don't have to wait for the weight Killer for wrestling post show to find out
what I thought of Monday Night Raw and SmackDown. Each week, you can
check out my reports that are updated live throughout Raw and SmackDown at pwtorch dot
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more. Check it out pwtorch dot com, your first stop for TV and
pay per view written reports. Nick without anything, just a quick question.
This is just an opinion. I'm wondering why have they not been doing anything
with dulphinlaz This is just depenion of my I think he's a really, really
great worker. You know, Yeah, he had some incredible matches. Just
seems like, you know, he's been on the back, burning off quite
a while. You know, when he when he does have his matches on
RALEIGHATNA far in between lately, he still put on a great show. It
just seems like they didn't have nothing to do with him. I don't know
if he's got yeah, no, no good what good topic? David.
A year ago, Dulphigler was a hot product, right alongside Daniel Bryant.
And it's kind of like watching like two hot rookies and one goes into a
sophomore slump in the like say in the NBA or whatever, you know,
pick your sport, and then one it just ends up with either a bad
second half of a rookie season or a bad sophomore season, and the other
one just takes off and is is you know, practically ready for the All
Star Game. Dull Figgers had an awful year? What what what's your what's
your interpretation of that? Because a year ago, I don't think there was
that big of a difference Brian and Doll's popularity among the insurgent fans who are
voicing, you know, who they want to see get pushed. Yeah,
I mean I think so. One of the things and obviously I don't know
any of this for for a fact. I mean one of the big things
is the end of the brand split and more and and in in a broader
sense, ww's you know, creative's kind of inability to to you know,
juggle more than one or two balls in the air at a time. You
know, they see this despite the fact that they're programming uh be you know,
becomes bigger and bigger. There, there's more and more of it there
that they seem to be focusing more and more exclusively on the one or two
things that are really working right then, But and you can't discount the concussion
situation. You know. I mean you can't. Uh, no one really
talks about Brian in this way. But but I but I can. I
think you can make the case that one of the biggest contributors of his success
is the fact that he's been healthy the whole time. I mean, there's
and you know, I heard from the WWE guy. This is two or
three years ago now, before Brian started getting the big push. Someone told
me that Vince loved him because he was always there and always willing to do
anything. You know, he was always game for whatever angle they wanted to
put him in. And part of that is just health and presence, you
know. And he's always been around and always been you know, there are
probably a lot of guys who would have scoffed at being in team hell know
and doing those sketches with a you know, with the counselor. And he
was game and he and like I said, for the past for since,
you know, with a couple of really tiny exceptions, he's been totally healthy
for the past eighteen months, you know. So it's it's a that's that's
a huge difference, I think too. Uh to add a little bit to
it too. I just think that DLP Ziegler is has frustrated management. I
think they've told him, don't do so much in the ring, pick your
spots and don't overdo it, and he goes out and he hasn't listened,
and he's felt like he has to go one hundred miles an hour the whole
time and outshine everybody. And I think that there's a sense among people who
decide who gets pushed a new dozen that Dult's not a good listener in that
regard, and that his wrestling IQ is too kind of indie rific, you
know, which is trying to get those hardcore fans to love me because I'm
willing to take the craziest bumps and work one hundred miles an hour. And
I'm I was saying it's the right or wrong reaction to that, But I
think some of that is at play, which is, if he's not going
to listen to us, we're gonna go. We're you know, all things
are equal, We're just gonna go with somebody who listens to us a little
bit more. It seems like they're gonna be there to handle that. They
really do get over. And I think part of it with Chel Figler two
is they should not have turned a baby face unless they're willing to go all
in with them as a babyface. And then the concussion happened, and then
he lost all his momentum and he just he's a better heel like I just
think they should have kept him here for a couple of years despite the fan
reaction and found a way that turned the fans into enjoying booing him as opposed
to rebelliously cheering him, and picked the right spot when they were ready to
turn him, when they could really really get behind him. And I felt,
well, in that case, it's kind of an example of the fans
maybe forcing that I just say force, but influencing managements maybe make a move
pre prematurely before management felt Dolph was right for that kind of top baby face
push. I really I totally agree with both of those points, and I
think, relating more to the first one, I think that there there is
a certain way that you can kind of that Dolphins has hurt his career by
being too good at selling. I mean, if that's if that's going to
be it's I mean, if that's it's he's he's going to have a great
career one way or the other maybe not I mean, not not necessarily a
Hall of Fame career, but you know he's in big matches with big names
all the time because he can make them all look really good. And you
know it's not I mean, you can't even compare him to you know,
somebody like Hogan or whatever. But if your best skill is making other guys
look good, then they're going to find spots for you to do that and
not necessarily put you up on top. So and it's my job over the
years to find or it's been part of my job description over the years to
figure find this stuff out whenever I can, and sometimes I done. Sometimes
I don't know or I'm not able to pinpoint it. But sometimes there are
other factors that have nothing to do with what we see on TV and nothing
to do with crowd reactions. And I'm saying this disclaimer loud and clear.
I'm not saying that what I'm about to say applies to Dolf. But there
have been cases where guys are really over and popular, but they're known off
off air for being disrespectful to women at bars or to a point that even
embarrasses and scarce like management, like wow, you know this we can't get
beyond this guy. He's a scant of waiting to happen, or or they're
heavy drinkers and they just get they drink way too hard to an unprofessional level
and say and do stupid things. So and you can come up with your
own set of examples of things that they run their mouths up on Twitter too
much or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And it could be it
could be very private where let's say that they complain about their push in a
way that really lets loose about management and say things that no way would this
wrestler want want it to be known that they're saying, but they're saying it
to the mole who then to get reports at management. So there's reasons guys
don't get pushed. And I'm not saying there are always good reasons, and
I'm not saying we should just say WWE knows what they're doing. Let's sit
back and enjoy the ride, because if you study WWE's history, there's many
many times that they make mistakes. Many times they've had to correct course.
Many times they've been drag kicking and screaming into doing the right thing. And
that's just anybody running any company. Is going to have a level of competence,
but also times that they're right, times that they're wrong, And there
are times when they I think they should have pushed wrestlers. They didn't and
there was no good reason. But there are times where I look back and
I go, yeah, everybody wanted this guy to get pushed, But I
learned a couple of years later. We learned a couple of years later they
couldn't rely on this guy to handle the pressure and represent the company if they
gave them the type of push that fans wanted. So again, I'm not
saying this case with doulf because I think our reasons that are public David and
known and guessable are are enough. But yeah, I mean that's what happened
with Eddie's first push, right, I mean, they didn't they take the
tidele away from him because he wasn't ready for it. Well, there was
pres there was a feeling that Eddie would take being world champion really, really
really seriously and it would put undue pressure on him, and that pressure would
lead to more drug abuse and he would just you know, not he wouldn't
be honest. A lot of guys get in that position where I should say
a lot, but it's happened. Second, guys get a big push,
or if they get a world title, they will think it's their only chance
and they have to push through no matter what. And if they if they
give up, or if they show any weakness, that's their last chance.
So they have to push through while they can still make money. And yeah,
there's times where you get signals of a guy who just can't handle that
pressure at that moment in time, and it's actually kind of cruel to then
give him his dream at the worst possible time physically or mentally for him.
Yeah, yeah, all, let's try squeeze in one more call, maybe
two in the last minute or two here on the live test second three four
seven. You are up next, Please station, you name and where you're
from. Hello, this is Christian, New York. Hey, Chris,
but you've got for David to me today. Oh, I have two questions.
The first one is about Randy Savage. Don't you think it's the critical
that VUH sells DVDs on him, puts him on the network, makes money
on him, and yet they won't at least put him in the Hall of
Fame. And the second question is about Sting. If Sting does not show
up in d V because they won't give him not Undertaker, do you think
he's being shout missed in that regard. Oh, he has the right not
to sign unless they give him the match he wants. Chris, what's your
source for Sting won't sign because he wants Undertaker? From from reading it on
p W second that that was his he says he was hoping to wrestle Undertaker
at Wrestle many have thirty and and you're saying that we reported that that's the
only reason he didn't sign with him. I just want to clarification that because
I think that's jumping the gun over you said. Okay, okay, Chris.
Thanks. Yeah. I was just sure, Chris, I'm so short
on time. I don't want to I'm sorry to cut you off. I
just wanted to make sure there wasn't some report out there that was stronger than
what we said. I mean, Sting talked about that, But I don't
think that he would just refuse to sign with WW because of that. But
David, yeah, your thoughts on Randy Savage instent, Well, I mean,
I you know, I don't think this is novel. But the Randy
Savage thing, as far as I can tell, is just entirely just about,
you know, the film catalog that the Pafo family has and just negotiating
for kind of lifetime legends rights to to Randy's memory and the whole family.
I mean, he's going to go in. You know, if all the
guys that, if all the guys that deserve to be first ballot Hall of
Famers win in the first year, then there'd be nobody left induct anymore,
you know, And I think that be it. Next year, the year
after, you know, we're going to see a big Randy Savage induction ceremony
and everybody will be able to breathe a sigh of relief. But I mean,
do you do you know anything different than that. I mean, that's
that's been my impression the whole time. I Mean, the reason Randy going
back years and years and years wasn't in as vincick Man at a meeting when
the Hall of Fame first got brought up or first started, somebody brought up
Randy Savage and they were told to bring up Rdy Savage his name in Vincent
Van's presence because of an incident that happened beyond the scenes many many years ago,
and Randy was dead to him before, while he was still alive,
by the way and not trying to be cute. And that cloud has hung
over Randy Savage for a very long time. And I do think that he
would be in the Hall of Fame already if it weren't for something that was
very deeply personal to Vince that happened with Randy, that that caused him to
want to not honor him in any way. And he was pretty much the
sole guy on that list of people who were Hall of Fame worthy who Vince
didn't want anything to do with being in the Hall of Fame. I don't
know if time has healed that wound or Randy dying helped soften that, but
I think that's still at play too, David, just you know. But
so Chris is right in that respect of we don't want honor in the Hall
of Fame, but we want to make a lot of money off of him.
I mean, I guess by definition it probably fits hypocrisy, but it
also shows the softening of the stance because they're willing to promote him and and
champion his accomplishments. Yeah, you know, so, so I think it's
a softening of that stance, and I think it's it's I think you're right.
I think it's a matter of time. But you know, Landy Poplo
said on this very show that Randy Savage had said that before he died that
he didn't want he would he refused to go in the Hall of Fame unless
they inducted his brother Landy and his dad at the same time. And Lanny
said, you know, if Lanny holds holds to that, that could be
a hiccup in things too, because wwe might say, you know, that's
nice, but you know, we just we just want to on a Randy.
He's the guy who deserves to be in it. So I think there's
it's a complicated situation, just you know, addressing Chris's question. Longing for
some nostalgia or maybe you want to learn some wrestling history, don't miss the
nineties pass cast Every Friday on the PW Torch Daly Cast feed. Alex and
Patrick will transport you thirty years into the past by taking you through the Torch
issue from that very weak. Follow news from the WWF and WCW and all
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it thirty years ago. That's the nineties past cast every Friday for the PW
Torch Daily Cast feed. How about Sting, David Well, I was under
the impression that thing's been and this is you know, I don't know who's
who's talked about this much at all, but I'm I'm my impression is that
Sting's sort of been available to WWE for for you know, at several times
over the past three four five years, and WWE has just been a little
bit I don't know if luke warm is the right word, but but not
quite as enthusiastic as as Sting was or as Sting would have liked him to
be. And I'm sure that they did. You know that they have discussions
about did Sting Undertaker at WrestleMania, But at the end of the day,
I think that they'd prefer to have to not give that spot to someone who's
not a WWE guy. I think it hurts too that Undertaker. I don't
think with trust being in the ring with the guy in his mid fifties who
doesn't wrestle full time because I'm taker. I don't want to ruin his gimmick.
But Mark Callaway is scared to death again hurt in the ring, you
know, I mean his matches that could be planned out, move or move,
and Steve Borden Sting is notoriously well known for forgetting spots two minutes into
a match. He has the equivalent of me when I would sit down to
take my economics test in college, and everything that I knew the night before
when I studied went blank as because a test got set in front of me,
And so I sympathize with it. But Sting is forgetful on promos,
and he's forgetful in the ring, and he's old, and he doesn't wrestle
full time. And Mark Callaway may not want all other factors erased, might
not want to put his health in the hands of Sting or get in ring
shape as best Mark Callaway can and have the match fall apart and be bad.
So I think that's part of it too, is just a health concern.
I just think Sting at this point is in no position to make demands,
and I don't think he will. I think the thinking now is he'll
come in after WrestleMania because they felt they had enough for WrestleMania, and he
didn't resign with T and A because he'll come in as something special to introduce,
to be part of WDW network and and be part of something that will
probably lead to him being in the Hall of Fame next year. Right that
that that's my best guess right now? Yeah, that sounds about right.
I mean, and listen, I there's a there's a big part of me
that would mark out for an Undertaker Sting match. But you know when it
when it plays, when that match happens in my head, it happens twenty
years ago, you know, like it's not or at least that Yeah,
yeah, I mean it's not like the idea. I mean, one of
the hardest things about wrestling is seeing you're seeing the gods you grew up with
age right, been in front of your eyes and and and you know,
some there there are some matchups like that, and in particular that that might
be a little bit hard to watch just for you know, the way that
it was just a procession of mortality. You know, there're in front of
you. Yeah, yeah, I would love to see it on some level,
but I think I can I think I can. That's one that I
can do with that at the end of the day. Yeah. Yeah,
And I think even three years ago it might have worked. I think if
people who have been watching TNA have seen Stings work, I'd say declined the
last three years noticeably. And you know, even five year years ago he
kind of looked like the old Sting. I mean it was, you know,
stand up rawls with Jeff Jarrett or whatever. But you know, it's
just it really was the last few years where you started looking and thinking this
might not be a good idea. I don't think you have to go back
twenty years. I think you go back at at least three, but maybe
four or five, and it's and it's doable. And but you know,
Undertaker has had too many good matches lined up that made too much sense otherwise,
So yeah, I'm not I mean, if Sting wants to face Undertaker,
that's fine. If Sting requires that he faces the Undertaker to sign with
WWE, that just seems kind of stupid and not really something I would believe.
I think I think I don't think Sting would go that far. I
agree. Yeah, cool, David, you have a feoture minutes. For
a PF, you have to show cover a couple of email questions and other
topics. Sure, okay, cool, excellent. I want to thank all
the live cast listeners for joining us vi IP. David Chumaker has been my
guest. Check out his writing on pro wrestling on a regular basis at grant
land dot com and also his book The Squared Circle. What was the full
title again? I want to get the full title of Life, The Squared
Circle, Life, Death and Professional Wrestling. I should have said it because
that's what I was going to guess that. I just was scared to get
it wrong. I appreciated that. Thank you David for your time. Check
it out in bookstores and on Amazon of course, or your nook, and
you can also get a free copy at audible trial dot com slash pro Wrestling
torch and David still gets cut of it, so don't feel bad taking it
free. All right, until next time? And Mick carsh by the way,
scheduled to be a guest next week. He had to cancel the last
two weeks on US due to some scheduling issues, but he has scheduled to
be on next week. We're going to talk about the late great Billy Robinson.
Mccarsh eye witnessed his career and Mick also follows current WWE closely, and
we'll talk about the conviction of Buck zoom Off in a very creepy story speaking
of a WA in the eighties and and much more, long time wrestling announcer
going back to the seventies, the head of the Nick Bockwinkle fan club,
announcer for the a w A on ESPN and the eighties. Mickcarsh my guest
week a repeat guest, and he is actually a Next Torch columnist dating back
to the late nineteen eighties. So join us next Friday for that. But
we'll be here every weekday between now and then five point thirty Eastern Tuesday through
Friday, and the hour before Raw on Mondays. Thanks everybody, all right,
we're now at the VP after show portion of the program. David,
thanks for your time. I really appreciate you sticking around. No problem at
on cool. Let's hit a few other subjects. VIP member Scott Briller emailed
in and he said, my question concerns Daniel Brian. It looks like Brian
will finally win the title at WrestleMania. Does Brian, though, need to
win the title to remain w W He's most popular wrestler. Well we might,
we might debate that that's an interesting question in and of itself. Or
can he be like Sina where he does not need to be champion to remain
number one or the face of the company in question number two, This is
a long shot, but Couldvinced throw curve at WrestleMania and turned Daniel Brian heal,
he would go from most loved to most hated. David for your thought
on the first part, Daniel Brian does he need the title to stay popular?
And I'll add my sub question, is Daniel Brian more popular than John
Cena? I mean, I'm gonna trust in numbers, guys who can who
seem to think that? I mean, who say pretty definitively that that Sena
is you know, still ahead and merchant ticket sales and all that kind of
stuff. So, uh, you know, they're different kinds of popular right
now. Daniel Brian, you know, has is riding a wave, you
know, a movement if you will, and h and there's no reason so
far to think that's going to subside. But I think the WWE in particular
is looking at it as as you know, a wave like it might last
a week, it might last year, but it's this is definitely sort of
uh, you know, he has He's gonna come back to earth at some
point. I'm saying that. I mean, and that's not necessarily my point
of view, but there but uh wait, what was the original question?
Yeah, well, does he does he need the title or remain popular?
Yeah, I mean I think he needs it certainly more than Seena does.
I mean, I think at this point that the storyline demands that he win
the title, and I think that, uh, you know, anything less
than that will will hurt him. I mean, it might not diminish him
in the eyes of his big of his fans, but it will certainly diminish
him in the sense that people will perceive that, you know, Vincent Hunter
decided not to give him the title, and uh, and that will I
mean, that might in some ways, that might make some people even more
ardent in their support of him, but that'll but it it will diminish his
character in that way. And you know, I think at some point he's
got to win. And I mean, you kind of have to establish yourself
as a champion before you can be the guy who doesn't need the belt.
A few notable exceptions like Andre may be excluded from that, but you know
it'll it'll be I'm not like I said, I'm not one hundred percent sure
he's gonna win at Mania, but but the the goal definitely has to be
to put the belt on him, at least for a little while. His
second question was, Couldvin throw curve and turn Daniel Brian Hill I think the
more likely scenario, and I want to throw this into the mix in your
answer. The more likely scenario, although still I think at five percent or
less and that may be overstating it is see on Punk making a surprise to
turn at WrestleMania and costing Daniel Brian the title, setting up extreme rules,
Paul Hayman managing that he'll see on Punk because Punk would rather be heel against
the baby face Daniel Brian who got cheated out of the title. Brian fues
with Punk all summer, then gets a title matching against Batist at Summer Slimon
wins it. That's scenario in various forms that have been presented by people kind
of creatively thinking of what might happen. But so that scenario, along with
what about danger Brian going hell? What do you think of either of those?
I find I mean, I don't know what to think about punk anymore.
I'm just gonna I'm sort of I'm sort of I mean, that sounds
awesome. I'm sort of willing to let that go until until you know he's
actually back. As far as far as Brian turning heel, I mean,
it's almost like Seena turning heel, except except well actually not, I mean,
but the opposite if Brian turned heel, I have a hard time imagining
anybody booing him, Like, how would we know if Brian turned heel,
if he like shaved his beard and put on a suit, would that be
him turning heel? We would people actually boo him? I don't know,
Uh, you know, I mean you saw it obviously he obviously when he
joined up with the Waatt family that wasn't a heel turn. But I guess
you can wonder whether or not that was a little bit of a test run
for how fans would react if he started doing something. You know that there
wasn't a strictly babyface, and you know, they just kept right on cheering
for him. The whole time. I mean, that was obviously the point
too. But you know, I think that of all the storylines in the
world that don't need to swerve finish, Daniel Brian finally vanquishing the authority and
winning the title is that storyline. I totally agree. I think it would
be a terrible for all the reasons you just said. I'm concurring it would
be a terrible idea to turn to Dannil Brian because I don't know how you
would actually do it and have it work. I don't even think Daniel Brian
could turn heel and see unpunk. I mean, that's just like, I
don't know who you'd have to turn. I don't I think if he attacked
hol Hogan, fans would assume Hogan was turning heel because Daniel. People would
think, oh, Hogan must have done something disrespectful to Daniel Bryan, something
horrible to cause Brian to do that to him. Like I just, yeah,
I don't know where you could go with him speaking to Hogan. He
introduceds on Monday, we didn't even get into this. David the under the
Giant Battle Royal. Jeff from Michigan emailed and said, will this be a
good thing for WrestleMania, and could they turn into something special like Money on
the Bank or is it just going to be another forget about Battle Royal.
I think it's gonna be awesome. I think that the biggest thing that it
does is it allows them to have a big WrestleMania moment that sort of combines
a lot of the less significant I mean, the stuff that that could have
kind of been overlooked at WrestleMania. For a while, I was wondering how
that what they were going to do with the sort of with the various giants,
you know, with Big Show and with Mark Henry and and you know,
how they were going to give them a moment. I don't know,
if you know, I have not read SmackDown spoilers, so I don't know
if I don't know what happens this week, but I don't know, so
I don't know what who they've they've included in it. But it wouldn't surprise
me at all to see the real Americans end up in the Battle Royal and
have their angle sort of play out there. And frankly wouldn't have surprised me
at all to see that be the moment. I mean to have the whole
point of the Battle Royal is for Cuzar to giants wing. I mean,
big show and have that be the finish. But but you know, I
think it's gonna be a big moment and it allows one more uh you know,
it allows them to kind of toss all this stuff together and make a
big match out of it. Now if it I don't know if this is
going to be an annual thing or not, but it certainly it's something from
the pull out of the back pocket every once in a while. And you
know, it does have that amazing trophy. And I don't think you know
if if if a trophy exists in pro wrestling, it's gonna get busted over
somebody's head. So literally just said that last night watching the mister Sayato Ho
Cogan Agle. It's so funny. You said that's whenever there's cake or a
trophy, it gets broken. I said that last night to somebody was watching
Awa stuff with and sure enough, mister Cyito actually was embarrassing because mister SAIDO
swung the trophy and it broke before it hit Ogan. It was a gimmick
trophy and cellfarer, So we had to hit him with a base of it
instead, and that's what got the blood. But yes, you're yes,
you're right. I got the impression and I don't know that it's it was
explicit. But I came away thinking it would be an annual event because it's
just a good way to get everybody in the card on WrestleMania, because I
think very much to so many people, I like it for that reason.
I'm I'm a little worried it just ends up being on the pre show is
kind of like you know, the throwaway, you know, ten man tag
match type of thing. I want them to make it special. I want
them to be something. I hope what Jeff says it's true that it's it's
intricately booked and that, like you said, there's a storyline that's memorable.
There's a WrestleMania moment for people, and it's not just everyone getting the ring,
hit each other, stand in a corner, watch some people fight,
throw people over, and then you know, a big guy wins. Give
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Yeah yeah, no, I mean, I I it's been a long
time since we've seen I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, since we've
seen a legit Battle Royal in any kind of like you know, big and
I mean I know there's been Diva's Battle Royals, but to have that kind
of like high profile match with so many people starting in the ring at the
same time, I mean, those things are I'm sure just impossible to book
and end plan out. So I agree with you too. If it's just
sort of like you know, if it's just ugly, that's not going to
be much of a WrestleMania memory. How about I just want your thoughts on
a whole Cogan and its usage so far. I thought, you know,
the first week it was sort of like, yeah, you know it's better,
Yeah, that's but this this last Monday, I thought Seen and Ogus
standing in the ring together was kind of no matter what you think of Hogan
and Seen it kind of epic, like a big moment. Seena and Hogan
together was the best part. Hogan is still in this weird mode where he's
like sort of the Hogan robot, you know, like he just he was
better than his first appearance, but you know, he just kind of just
you know, does all the catchphrases, does all the brothers, and puts
over the network, you know, with it with ad nauseum. I guess
it's like the full string. You just think you got a Hogan doll in
your pulling the string exactly, so I thought, but it's cool to have
him back, and you're right if you can if you can use those scene
of moments and you know, moments with other superstars effectively, then you know,
there's sort of an endless number of really great uses for him. But
you know, such as it is, I'm kind of glad they gave him
the Rumbles. I mean, let's say I called it the Rumble. They
gave him the the Battle Royal too, because that sort of it sort of
clarifies. But his role at WrestleMania is going to be, you know,
I mean, I guess it's possible that he does a lot more than that,
but at least that makes that makes it a little bit easier to wrap
your mind around, and you're not going to be looking for him to you
know, run in and leg drop Brian and reform the nWo in the main
of or something, you know. I mean, it's I mean, it's
it's that's gonna be his thing, and hopefully they'll make really good use of
him. But that'll be the extent of the use of him. So I
will update although VIP this will be the VIP portion has heard after I uploaded
to the site. It's not live and people they care probably looked it up
by now. But Johnny Hendrick did make weight by the way, on his
second attempt. Oh he did good. Yeah, so final matches on and
no, although I think I think we have a story about Mma Torch that
the title would have been on the line anyway even if he didn't make weight.
But I just clised at that line because that's trying to by attention to
what the show that we're doing here. But I wanted to get a quick
update and hit refreshed. So yeah, interesting story. Let's let's let's talk
about Sena and bray White. We got a good question from Vince who says
Vince B who says, we all know that John Cena stalic humor and through.
Okay, there's a type of in there is cringe worthy. Uh.
It usually is fine and probably makes a portion of the audience last sincerely,
But he does not seem to understand how is he is counterproductive to his opponents.
James Caldwell called it the Sena test, where he perhaps is trying to
see if his opponents are fast on their feet, but the way he does
it, there's no way to come back, Like how he completely destroyed del
Rio's gimmick when he blurted out that his cars are rentals. In contrast,
you just have to look at Magnus for last from last week's Impact. He
went out of his way to make Simo Joe sound like the most dangerous man
on the planet. John Cena would just make man boob jokes and kill all
of Joe's badassery. So my question is where did John Cena learn this?
I get that as rapper, gimmick was about making fun of his opponents,
but there's a difference between making fun of someone and dressing them down. The
company is filled with brilliant wrestling minds who are bigger stars than him, as
well as I'm sorry who are bigger stars than him, as bigger stars than
him Comma, as well as guys with seniority ranging from semi aive wrestlers to
the legends, as well as the agents and whatnots. So why doesn't anyone
tell him that his way is not best for business? Interesting question? What
do you think? David? Yeah, I think he did that question kind
of answered itself. I mean, I don't know what I mean it had.
I mean, he's right about what Sena does and is promo on Monday
against Bray. Why it was just ridiculous. I mean to be saying,
like margaer Riteville, this generation is the undertaker, you know, is just
sort of is just nonsensical. Uh. But you know, I mean to
some extent that'll be forgotten as as it goes on. And I will say
that that Sina engaging with him as a real person, to me at least,
is preferable to Sina engaging with him as if he's actually like you know,
some some some you know, druid using the dark arts or something like
that, you know, or that he's actually like a threat to see his
life. Uh, that would not be preferable. And we've definitely seen Seena
you know, seene a feuds in the past where he was, you know,
fighting Umaga or whatever monster of the month it was, and he did
kind of oversell the gravity of the situation and that wasn't any better. But
it was a really weird It wasn't a really weird scene. On Monday,
it'll be a kind of an interesting to see how they walked that tire rope
going forward, because that can't be ideal in anybody's eyes. But I don't
know who's telling him, I mean, my I mean, I don't think
that it's If I had to guess, I would say that it's not.
I mean that it's there's no conspiracy or anything. I would just guess that
Seena got really over doing that gimmick, and at a time when not a
lot in WWE was getting over, and the conventional wisdom has just let him
keep going because he figured something out. Yeah, yeah, well, the
the Bray whitet movement into the main event, just facing John Cena. I
think that when we first heard it it felt not WrestleMania worthy, and then
and then came the Brian turn, and it was maybe going to lead to
Brian against Bray, they'd break up in time for WrestleMania, and then they
went back to why a't Sina once that thing didn't play out. I think
that's the generally agreed to timeline e Vince kind of evolving on what to do
with scene and what to do with Brian the last few months. I didn't
think it felt WrestleMania worthy, and I agree with all the criticism of Sina's
promo money, and it was just in recusable for him to do that.
But I think with Hogan now standing side by side with Sina and on the
postgame show on Raw. Hogan didn't promo where he said or he did an
interview where he said, I have seen his back, And I get the
sense we got several more weeks ago before Mania that Hogan might end up getting
more involved where not so much like he's in a tag matchal scene against you
know, the Wyatt family. Although they they could do that if Hogan could
pass a physical and they felt good with it. I don't think they will
at all. But Hogan could be part of the heat that the White family
gets, like they could attack Hogan or or threaten to attack him, and
it kind of ends up being Hogan more than just a host of Mania,
because that was maybe just the cover story for him to have an excuse to
be on TV. But he actually gets involved in a way in this feud
where bray Wyatt gets a rub from essentially feuding with Hulk Hogan along with John
Cena, and I think bray Wyatt can can come out of this really elevated.
I mean, as a guy at his mid twenties that management's really high
on, has great pedigree. I just think bray Wyat couldn't end up being
made by this wrestle medium more than he already has been in the feud with
the Shield and everything else he has done. We just have to keep John
scene away from you know, dressing him down on television. But did you
come away from any feeling the same thing that Wow, I have the way
Hogan's being used, Bray could end up being the huge winner in this.
Yeah, I mean there's not I totally agree. I totally agree. And
and Bray, uh, you know, has all the makings of a guy
who can be a really central, you know, headliner, cater wrestler performer.
But you know, I mean, you're right, I've been impressed so
far with how with how organic the feud was. Seena has seemed, I
mean, now as he hasn't been a huge central storyline, but uh,
it hasn't felt entirely like a step down for seeing in execution. I agree
with you know, you that in theory it seemed sort of like a weird,
a weird storyline. I mean, part of it was when Sena cut
that promo I guess right before his last match with Orton where he said,
you know, this is the end of this feud and from now on,
I'm you know, fighting young guys He didn't say that really explicitly, but
he said it pretty explicitly. I mean, I think that's uh, I
mean, this might be the pass to Scena getting over I mean amongst even
the smart fans. I mean, for the longest time, his gimmick has
sort of been And he said this, and when he was in the ring
with Brian one time several months ago, where he basically said, you know,
I'm not I'm not gonna be everybody's favorite wrestler, but I'm gonna make
their favorite, right, I'm gonna I'm gonna make their favorite wrestlers matter.
Because that's what I mean, that's what's happened with Punk and with Brian,
you know, like with that in the absence of John Cena, neither of
those guys get what they've got, you know. And uh, And if
he just kind of makes that his gimmick now, or he's just sort of
the king maker just giving guys a shot and letting him think or swim,
that you know, kind of makes John johnsena interesting for the first time in
a long time. Although if that's his goal, it's not really letting them
sink or swim. If he's taking very wide and shoving his head underwater,
and some people would say that's what he did on the promo on Monday too,
Like John has to if what you're saying is correct, John has to
realize you can't I want to be the kingmaker while you know, just undressing
these gimmicks on television. I mean the Dell Real one where he said his
cars were rentals. I just I mean, I still, I still just
my jow just dropped. It was one of those moments Where'm like John Cena's
wrestling IQ, I can't think of an excuse. I can't think of an
excuse. I mean, there's a lot of times where I'm like, well,
maybe there's, you know, a way of thinking that's different than mine,
that that this is okay. I just can't imagine. Like I just
think Sena's wrestling IQ sometimes is really low and he's just kind of kind of
insulated and protected from criticism. And I think there's some truisms about the way
he does things where he doesn't know and no one will tell him because he's
John Cena. And that even came across to me in his interview with Steve
Austin. I thought there's a lot of things he said that were really smart
and admirable, but there were a few times I thought Steve Buston was biting
his lip a little bit. Yeah, No, I agree. I think
that's I think that's that's totally right. I mean, I think the insulation
is is real, and I think that I mean, you definitely see times
in every interviewer that he does where he's either being he's either deliberately holding back
or just sort of missing something, and and uh, you know, it's
it's hard, it's hard to know. It's hard to know without knowing the
guy. But yeah, I mean I think that what I was saying,
I meant separately from that whyatt promo, that'll just be a one time thing
and I and and we won't be worrying about that, you know, in
a couple of weeks. But uh, you know, I guess to be
you know, I mean, bray White, I mean, the bray White
gammit going forward is going to be really interesting because it can't be like the
early Undertaker run. I mean they can't and they haven't been doing it,
but they can't act like you know, there's something like like metaphysical going on
with these characters. Because fans will just roll their eyes. They've walked the
line really well so far. You know, they managed to they managed to
turn Brian without using you know, smoke and explosions and anything like, you
know, and just been weird promos set around a campfire or whatever. Right,
Yeah, well that could have been the way that they would have gone.
That is the way they would have gone, you know, a while
back. But uh, you know, so it I don't think that there's
any problem necessarily with sort of humanizing them a little bit. And the scene
it can be the vehicle for that, that's fine, But the way that
he did it on Monday is not fine at all. So it was when
you said think er swim, I like literally in my mind just saw scenas
like literally just shoving very wide underwater and then pulling him up and going swim
and then pushing him underwater. And yeah, like I just like that visual
just came to me. And I don't know, I'm I would be curious,
and it's something I just I need to ask around. I'm just curious
if there's anybody who speaks truth to sina, you know, the speak truth
to power type thing. Is there anybody who can just talk to scene and
Sina will listen. Like Austin, I thought it was this remarkable moment in
the Officin interview on this Keebosson podcast where he said, John, can you
do me a favor and and and be a little snugger on that scf do
it for me? And it was like, there's almost like you can't count
them on one hand. There aren't five people who can get away with saying
that to John Cena in this world. Yeah, and Steve Austin did it.
And then Sina kind of il self deprecating and going, oh, it
made me feel bad for Randy and all that. But like Austin, you
know, Austin watches Scena's matches with a critical eye because Austin's such a student
of the game and that's the stuff that he really cares about as a worker.
And Seena's awful in that regard in certain ways. And I just I
just like almost applauded, you know, while listening to it, like,
thank you Steve for saying it, because Seene of us have been insulated from
anybody telling him how awful this really simple whole books the way he applies it.
Yeah, I mean I might have said this to you for some reason,
I feel like the last time that we were talking, but there was
Brian. Actually, Brian told me this when I was interviewing him, that
there was a show where Austin was backstage. This is probably like a year
ago, two years ago something like that, and and was just chatting with
Sena and he's like, how's everything going, and Seene's like great, great,
you know, the show's going really well or whatever, and Austin just
shook his head and pointed out to the crowd. He said, when I
was when I was headlining, all those seats were full, and you know,
it's just like, yeah, I guess things aren't great, you know,
but but you know, it's it's true. It's true. I mean,
there's not that many guys that can do it, and it's the guys
they come before and that really can and most of them not a lot of
those guys are willing to do it, you know. I mean, it's
just not that they're scared, but it's just they'd rather be buddies, you
know. And and it's cool that often does that kind of thing. Every
Sunday night, Catch Wrestling Night in America on PW Torchdailycast dot Com hosted by
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Torchdailycast dot com. Well that was Ben's question, actually, and I don't
have a good answer, which is why aren't there more agents telling Sena and
you know what he needs to hear and that these are bad ideas. And
I mean, I do know you know that some of the producers in WWE
feel like their opinions aren't welcome, you know, I know Jerry Lawler has
said that over the years that like, I mean, Jerry, you grew
up watching him. Jerry Lawler has would be so helpful just so many guys
in WWE on how to cut promos, how to carry themselves, how to
like. We had a caller in the live cast on Tuesday who said Jerry
Lawler would be great, a great coach for AJ Styles because AJ had made
such an impressive appearance on the live cast a couple months back and people were
just blown away, like Wow, this was a lot better than we expected
it to be. And this caller on Tuesday said, AJ's better when he's
not doing the wrestling promo, the yelling, the angry, the demonstrative thing,
but he's just being more Jerry Lawler, like like plane spoken and picking
his spots. And Jerry, I know, has been frustrated over the years
that management hasn't recognized that is something that he could actually work with wrestlers on.
And I think what happened is Jerry, somewhere in the nineties just gave
up being hurt by it and just said I'm here to get paid, I'm
going to do my thing, I'm going to do what Vince wants me to
do. I'll play my role, even if it's not the role I would
play if I were in charge. And I just wonder how many smart people
arn Anderson picked the agent, pick the producer, who are just in that
same position that maybe Lawler was, where they feel beaten down and they just
think, you know, nobody wants my opinion. So I'm just going to
shut up and collect my paycheck and do my job. But man, it's
tough to bite my tongue. And Austin is the one guy with a clout
not to do it. As Austin always says, he did it when I
interviewed him and when I was on his show and we were critical of the
product, he says, And he has a good phrase he uses, but
he said, David, I've earned the right to be critical of WWE.
Yeah, like, and he's right, he has. And who's gonna tell
him any different? Yeah, nobody, I mean, and that's one of
the great things about I mean, it's one of the great things about him,
just kind of in general. And yeah, I talking about what you're
talking about with the guys who are you know, the agents or whatever that
might be too sort of you know, beaten down to really give, you
know, to give, to say what they really saying, to do what
they really want to do. I mean, if there's only a handful of
those guys backstage, that's more toxic than anything else, you know, I
mean just having people. I mean, and this is not a knock on
them. If it's the workplace, it's got him that way. But there's
nothing more toxic than guys showing up just to collect a paycheck, I know.
And now I mean for any line of work. And I'm not just
talking about wrestling, So you know, it's you should we should hope that
it's not that way, but it wouldn't surprise me if it is. When
Jake Roberts was on the show, you know, Jake wants to be either
on the creative team or on the or producer for WWE, and there's just
things about his reputation that are knowing and things that are that just kind of
work against that happening. But he would be great. Like he said,
I want to get my hands on Randy Orton, and he said, Bob
called him up and said, you know, this was a few years ago,
but he says, you know, oh you know, and he imitated
Bob Orton. It was great. Jake did a good Bob Ordon. He's
like, you know, you got to get my son, pull him aside
and give him that something extra that he's missing that he needs. And Jake's
like, Oh, if I could just have a couple of weeks with with
with Randy, you know, work working with him on body language and promos,
I could get him to that next level. And I think there's a
lot of people who feel they could accomplish that for different wrestlers. And I
think that's one of the things WWE in their structure could be better about,
is not having the people on top the and secure or absent minded, whichever
it is, where they dismiss a lot of smart people who have a lot
of areas especialty where they could help other people get better at what they do.
Yeah, I mean could you I mean why could they not do that
in at the performance center? Why could they not hire you know, three
different guys to be to be working with promos and then you know, six
months later, just see who's doing a better job of it. You know.
I mean, if if someone can't hack it, they can't hack it.
But they do have the ability sort of and you know, down in
Florida to to maybe hire somebody like Jake and to uh quell some of the
concerns about him, you know, about his personal life trial. Yeah,
I mean, and just like you know, life not on the road,
you know, is a big thing for guys in his position. So you
know, I think that there's there, there are a lot of options,
and I you know, and who knows. I don't think that it's I
don't think it's you know, it's it's necessarily something they wouldn't do. But
you know, I there, there's there's there. You know that the developmental
is has been evolving a lot, and you know, hopefully they'll they'll come
up with some of the ideas like this on their own so they can feel
good about doing them because they're not gonna take They're not gonna take our recommendation
final subject. And my time is kind of limited too, So I've got
a I got a run, But I don't want to go through an interview
with you and not ask what you think about Brock and Takers so far and
the hype in the angle, the angles they'ved on the last stuff a few
weeks, I'll say, I mean, I've said this before, but you
know, I didn't know how excited I was going to be for Brock Taker
until I saw him in the ring together. I mean I I saw on
paper, I was just like, yeah, that'll be a good match.
But like I was kind of like, you know, I had been imagining,
actually had been imagining Taker Brian for you know, three four months back,
and and you know that, you know, I had that in my
head. And there are some other things I probably would have rather seen than
two guys who are part timers just sort of you know, just just run
butting heads and taking up a spot. I mean not taking like It's not
like I don't I don't know it sound that dismissive. It's I mean,
they're two great wrestlers who I always enjoy watching, but you know, you
put two part timers in the ring together, and it's sort of hard to
make it feel significant. But you know, with with the same minimal,
you know, build up that they seem to do every year with the Undertaker,
it does feel really significant, at least to me. I mean maybe
maybe I'm just you know, more of a mark for those guys than I
thought I was, you know, And and and you know, one of
the big things that really helped me was that was that Hayman Chicago promo where
he was able to mention seeing Punk, because that was what had been really
been missing from the storyline in the previous week or two, was that,
you know, Hayman is the Hayman is the fiber that connects last year and
this year for that match and and to to to be forced to ignore it.
I'm not knocking WW for what happened before because they didn't know what was
gonna happen with Punk, so they didn't really know what to do with it.
But but you know, it was a lot better once that was sort
of out in the open. And uh and you know, I mean it's
I don't think there's any way that Undertaker's gonna drop, gonna you know,
drop the street to brock Lesner. But I mean, even if I knew
was one hundred percent certainty that the Taker was gonna go over, there's just
something there's just you you're scared for the Undertakers saying him standing next to brock
Lesner and that's a really awesome thing. Yes, yeah, yeah, I
just I hope that they didn't do too much damage by taking away that moment
of building up to the moment of Undertaker slamming Brock through a table, you
know, like I thought that was just giving too much away, that that
was like, you know, a whole program, a whole feud in two
minutes or ten minutes in that I think you want to, you know,
build to that anticipation of what will happen when they're physical with each other for
the first time, and that that worried me a little bit. But I
think Brock being on a RAM page for the next few weeks and Paul Hayman
may be starting to act scared that, you know, Brocks, that Undertaker
slam and Brocks, that's something off in Brock, I think can get people
fearful for Undertaker. But I do think you have You're right that that aspect
in play is what's accomplished. No matter who wins. If Brock ends the
streak, well maybe Undertaker is going to retire anyway, but now a guy
ended the streak who isn't going to be around full time ever again. And
if Undertaker beats Brock, well, Brocks lost before and it'll just be somebody
next year, Like it's ww's challenges you have to get add something to it,
hopefully and not take away from what you experienced. Then I agree,
is there which is holy crap, look at these doing the ring together.
But you want to add a little more to that, hopefully and not through
a premature angle where Brock is selling the crap out of a choke slam.
You don't want to take away from what organically is there if you just kind
of let it be. Yeah, I mean, it's been my opinion for
a while that that, you know, despite Undertaker being such an old school
kind of guy, there's that the most valuable thing to WWE's for the streak
to remain intact forever. I mean, it's gonna it's it's the DVD sales
are more important than whatever a little rub it would give whoever it would be.
And it's impossible to imagine the guy who needs that rub and who WW
would actually allow to have that rub, you know. I mean, Daniel
Bryan may have been the one guy who is sort of at that level where
it would have really boosted his profile and where he was also you know,
where WW had the confidence in him to do it. But they're not just
gonna give it to They're not going to give it to you know, Dolph
Ziggler and then let you know, let him leave the company in six months
or whatever. You know. I mean, it's there's just no the equation
for for how that would happen is just so it's just it's so minimal.
I don't know what is the term for when two circles have an area that
they overlap. Cocentric circles. Yeah, there's that that overlap where there's there's
a circle of guys who are worthy of being against Undertaker at WrestleMania, And
that's a small circle. You know, there's some like, there's a lot
of guys who would benefit from beating Undertaker. That's a huge circle of people
who would benefit from beating him. It's almost everybody on the roster. But
who deserves to be against Undertaker? That's a really small circle. And then
where is the overlap? Where is somebody who will benefit Brock wouldn't, you
know, you know, John Cena wouldn't. That'd be a waste. So
who benefits who also is worthy of that spot where you're not wasting it and
taking away drawing power. And it's that's where you go, maybe Daniel Bryant
this year, and I made it. I made a case a couple months
ago on the Keller Hotline. Someone asked a question. I just kind of
agreed that Ruman Rains might have been might this year or next year be that
guy who if they want to move into the next level he might be worthy
in the fans eyes of the match and also is early enough in his career
that it would greatly benefit him. But I think unless you find that person
in that moment who can draw and benefit draw in the match and benefit from
winning, you just let take or retire with the street. I totally agree.
I mean, and I mean yeah, I mean you look at you
look towards next year, and yeah, I mean there may be any of
the guy I mean, any of the guys in the Shield or Bray Wyatt.
I mean, those are guys that could see could conceivably be in that
level. And it's it's the fun to talk about those guys. I'm excited
to kind of have the conversation aboutin of the year, just to see how
much of them and how much of that has panned out, because you know,
it's inevitably it's not going to pan out for all of them. I
mean, I don't mean it's gonna be entragedy, but you know, it's
it's just never it never is a hundred. Nobody bats a thousand when you're
picking, when you're picking performers. But yeah, I mean, it's just
it's really hard. It's really hard to see, uh you know what what
benefit that would have? And uh, unless it were something crazy like you
know, unless that were like part of the contractual negotiations, if you like
told Punk he could break the streak if you signed a ten year contract or
something like that. You know you but that you know that you that's that's
just totally like, you know, fantasy. So Vince Vince went, Vince
and Hunter would allow themselves to be held hostage and have a wrestler, you
know, dictate to them doing something bad for business, just to get them
to come back at least not somebody upon strawing power, which is not hul
Kogan or Steve Austin. Yeah, yeah, Ben Ben diagram, by the
way, is a Vin diagram right now? Is something else? You're right?
Yeah? Yeah, I looked it up what you're talking because I wasn't
sure, but I looked up overlapping circles. I googled it and sure enough
the image is popped up of a ven diagram. That's what I'm talking.
Yeah, where where did? Where is that tiny, tiny overlap of somebody
worthy for the match, who can benefit from it? And and you know,
Danny Bryan this year, maybe Roman reigns next year. But you gotta
find that and you're right, it may not even work out, and it
could end up being at Albatross where that wrestler is. It's the equivalent of
being the number uh you become. I'm trying to think of first round NBA
picks who were busted. Joe Smith, you know, yeah, you end
up who's the Russian the Russian center that Detroit picked. He played on Minnesota
and Boston. Wait the Russian centers? No, just he just in the
last eight he was drafted. Oh Darko, yes, Darko militants. He
was on the Wolves and there was a David Kahn pick up and then he
went to Boston and like didn't last your training camp or something. Yeah,
you know, like you get that first round pick and it just puts way
too much pressure on you, you know, or you just were the wrong
choice. And picks for the wrong reason. So you don't want to be
that guy, the guy who ended taker streak. But you're an asterisk that
you know, Everyone's like, whatever happened to that guy? Oh yeah,
he flamed out? Yeah, totally true. I don't think. I don't
think there were any reason this year that it's gonna end this year, unless
you know, the only thing is that if Undertaker just decides to retire and
just insisting going out in his back, you know, I mean, but
I think that likely here, that is really minimal. Yeah, I guess.
I guess you could see a scenario where Taker says, for I don't
know what reason, but I want I'm done this year, and I don't.
I want the street to end, and I want to hand the streak
over to something that can draw money. I want Lesnard to destroy me and
the streak and end my career, and that's gonna be the storyline. And
if I can come back, which I think is only twenty five percent,
I'll have a comeback match against Brock and will draw major money. Or if
I can come back, I'm willing to go out on a stretcher because I
think Undertaker should go out that way. Again, I'm not saying Mark thinks
this way, but if he did, and then he says, I want
you to turn brock inding my streak into a storyline that leads to Brock headlining
against John Cena next year, with Brock following to end Sina's career and all
the scene of fans will be fearful of it, and then you've got your
storyline. Like, That's the only way that I could see Undertaker losing is
if Mark Callaway himself pitched it and pushed it and came up with a scenario
that Vincent Hunter liked. Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah, cool,
David, I love this stock. It was great having back on the
show. And what a great week to I mean we left at least half
the hot topics on the table on explored. So it's been. It's a
great It's a great time of year, so I mean it'll be the next
few weeks would be a lot of fun. It will. Well. I
appreciate, uh, appreciate your time today and come back to the show.
I'll do it, man, I'll talk to you soon. Great, Thanks,
Thanks, we'll have you on again if you're will all right, no
brah anytime, Cool invite you to email the show with feedback or questions or
comments. That email address is Wade Keller Podcast at pw torch dot com.
That's Wade Keller Podcast at pw torch dot com. Also welcome your feedback on
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the comments section. Thank you so much. In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned
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