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VIP now, PW Torch and Sprinker bring

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you the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast. It's time for this week's Interview Classic,

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where Wade Keller interviews one of pro
wrestling's newsmakers. Ten years ago today,

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I interviewed Grant Lands David Shoemaker,
who talked with me about current events

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in professional wrestling. And it is
today's Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast Interview Classic

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four Wednesday, March fourteenth, twenty
twenty four, ten years ago today.

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Topics in the news that I discussed
with David included Seeampunk's effect in Chicago,

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the Holkogan John Cena alliance, the
Daniel Bryant triple A changle on Raw,

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the situation with brock Lesnar Undertaker,
live color questions on wrestlming you thirty some

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email questions and more. So let's
get to it again. This is our

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ten years ago Interview Classic Here on
the Wayetller Pro Wrestling Podcast. Welcome to

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thep W Torch Live Past. Dim
Wade Keller, Editor and publisher of the

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Pro Wrestling Torch newsletter dating back to
our launch in nineteen eighty seven and also

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with pwtorch dot com websites in nineteen
ninety nine. You're a home of daily

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breaking pro wrestling news stories and features, and live PB coverage and live paperber

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reports and much more, including access
and links to this very show. And

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app store on your device. And
we also have a sister site and sister

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app called Mma Toorch dot com.
A big payperview tomorrow night, We've got

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you covered with full free. It
is Friday, March fourteenth, twenty fourteen,

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and I am joined on Interview Friday
by David Chumaker of grant Land dot

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com. David, Welcome back to
the program man, Thanks for having me.

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It is great to have you back
on the show. We've had a

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lot go on since the last time
you were on the show. Had you

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been on the show last Friday,
a lot would have gone on since the

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last time you were on the show. What a WrestleMania season. And I

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want to focus a lot, although
we're going to throw the phone lines open

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to callers too, of course,
but we are going to talk a lot

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about Monday's Raw and WrestleMania thirty developments. I thought a lot came into focus

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for WrestleMania thirty on Monday's program,
mostly for better in my opinion. I

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thought it was a fascinating program with
WWE kind of finally, as Chris Jericho

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said, giving the fans what they
want that had been staring them in the

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face all along. David, I'm
curious about your thoughts on the big angle

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with Daniel Bryan triple h the fans
and kind of it, you know,

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Dania Bryan saying he organized his fans
uh and gathered them and invited them into

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the ring to basically hijack Raw or
as a takeoff on the Occupy Wall Street

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movement to occupy Raw. What you
think of that angle on Monday night?

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It was It was an incredible scene. I mean, I I mean,

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I don't think anybody saw it coming, and even if you did, I

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think that would have still been a
kind of breasttaking moment for that. You

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know, it was the sort of
the sort of the culmination of that storyline

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so far, it was really you
know, I mean we I know,

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you and I have had different points
of view on on on the on the

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arc of Brian's career, at least
as as determined by w WE over over

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the preceding months, but you know, I would have never guessed that that's

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where they were gonna go. And
and there's and certainly they've been, you

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know, playing with Daniel Bryan fans
within the context of the storylines pretty relentlessly

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over the past couple of months.
But the way I mean, and all

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that said, the way that they
pulled the main event that you know,

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the title match step out of just
thin air at the end of that Homo

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was pretty incredible and and pretty ballsy. But uh, I mean it was,

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like I said, I didn't see
it coming. I was I was

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excited, you know, I had
that little that little tingle of like this

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is what it was like to watch
wrestling when I was ten years old again.

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But yeah, I mean, over
I mean, overall, you know,

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I don't want to give them credit
for this, and you know,

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as anybody think, I'm saying,
this has been the storyline for the past

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six months, that they've been building
to, but the way they put it

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on on Monday, you know,
was pretty was pretty incredible at that.

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Our phone number is six four six
seven two one nine A two eight and

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we are talking uh WWE today and
wrestlmating of thirty developments and we definitely welcome

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your phone calls. And uh we
are with David Chumaker, not only of

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Grantland dot com, Pro Wrestling's columnist
at Grantland dot Comedy ESPN website affiliate,

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but also author of the Squared Circle
Life, Death and Professional Wrestling, which

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is available by the way at audible. And we'll tell you how to get

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that book free, Yes free.
I hope you still get residuals from it

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if Audible gives it away. David, Yeah, I believe I do.

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Oh that's good. All right,
So we'll tell you how to get David's

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book for absolutely free during the show
if you have not yet taken advantage of

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00:06:14.720 --> 00:06:16.279
our free book offer at audible.
And we'll do that in just a few

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minutes. Yeah, David, I'm
with you. I thought that the scene

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with Daniel Bryant and the fans reminded
me of my first visit to ECW Arena.

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Back in nineteen ninety five, the
Public Enemy beat the Gangsters in the

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main event at ECW Arena in Philadelphia. This was in July, I think

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July ninety five, and now the
ECW scene was more spontaneous, but the

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Public Enemy started celebrating. They would
wagh their hands in the air to their

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theme music, and it was kind
of a tradition for fans to do it

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in the audience, but fans decided
to storm the ring and celebration, and

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Public Enemy, the late Johnny Grunge
and the late Ted Petty rock o'rock encouraged

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fans to go in the ring and
they crowded the ring to the point that

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it was absolutely packed with fans,
and I've got photos of it. I

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actually ran a pick sure of the
scene in the cover of the Progressing Torture

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newsletter this week and compared it to
that moment in that even though that was

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more organic, this was more orchestrated. On Monday, it was orchestrated in

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a way, David that simulated I
think what fans have been kind of feeling

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and wanting to do, like it
would have been orchestrated if they did it

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for Batista you know, like when
he came back, like you'd be groaning

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and a bunch of people in skinny
jeans and Batista teaherts w jump into the

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ring, you know, I mean, we would have been like, come

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on, this is ridiculous. And
I know there's been some criticism of WWE,

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and you've even written about it.
Kind of, I should say youve

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been critical of, but you've written
about and acknowledged that WWE is kind of

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co opting organic fan movements and marketing
the Yes Tea shirts, coming up with

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a yes movement phrase and now Occupy
raws to take off on Occupy Wall Street.

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I'm fine with that. And because
WWE's corporation that's trying to make money

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and they should take what the fans
want and do it, but they need

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to do it in a way that
doesn't come across as to corporate, too

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corporate and too heavy handed, like
when Michael Cole, for instance, kept

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calling CM Pump Pump sm punk,
the pipe bomb, the pipe bomb throwing

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CM punk like they started. You
know, when Michael Cole says something,

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he's just such a dork. It
kind of ceases to be cool, especially

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if it sounds like he's pushing it. But I thought they I thought they

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hit enough of a sweet spot on
Monday that I was really okay with it

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because it felt like, even if
it was planned, it represents accurately.

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I think how fans feel. How
did you feel about the execution of it?

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The details? Yeah, I think
that's a really smart way of doing

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it. I mean, you're right
that you know it was. I mean,

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there was there was a lot of
staging involved, obviously, and I

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think that that had to do with
one, you know, creating a moment

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that would be memorable, that would
be you know. I Mean the big

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thing that I always say, I'm
sure you do too, is that it's

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less important how it happens in real
time than how it looks on the on

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the promo package they pieced together later
on, and that visual is going to

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live on in WWE history. But
you know, and the other thing is

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that the you know, I I
think they probably had an intuition from having

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been there a million times that that
Memphis crowd wasn't gonna exactly still the void

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that they the previous crowds had as
far as joint you know, being being

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full fledged members of the Yes movement
if you will. Uh so they you

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know, they had to kind of
set something up that they weren't going to

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do anything bigger at least than like, you know, Brian on top of

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the steel cage. So you know, it was it. You know,

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there there were there were if you
if you weren't engaged, like I said,

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I was as like, you know, a ten year old, you

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could definitely take a step back and
say, yeah, there's a little bit

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of gimmickery going on here. It
does seem a little bit silly on its

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face, but you know, I
mean that's professional wrestling for you. And

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and the fact that they are,
that they are acknowledging the ground swell in

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the first place, is something I
think Daniel Bryant fans should be pretty happy

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about. Yeah, and that's what's
interesting about fans speaking out. And I

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know you talked with Pete Rosenberg on
your podcast about the idea with taking the

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Daniel Bryan movement and and not,
and he was sort of critical. I

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think I think it was him who
was critical of like the fans chanting.

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And again, it's kind of like
there's a there's a spectrum, it's not

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a binary choice. But he was
he seemed a little more critical of fans

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voicing their opinions, and I think
he was the one and correct me if

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I'm wrong who said that fans should
just buy ticket to a house show as

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opposed to chance for Daniel Bryant at
a show that doesn't have him headlining.

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And I really, I really disagreed
with that because I think it's because the

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fans, well, first of all, it's unrealistic just wait around forever and

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then buy a ticket and expect that
to, you know, once Daniel Brian

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headlines, and expect that to make
a bold statement when you can actually go

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to the show and respond as wwe
by the way, has empowered the fans

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to do in so many ways in
recent years and voice their opinion. And

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I think it is that voicing of
their opinion for both c and Punk and

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Daniel Bryan that has changed the course
of the default mode that Triple A sho

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physic Man have, which is more
towards fatista types. Your your thoughts on

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that, and I mean it fulds
like you're kind of giving credit to the

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fans for making this angle kind of
happen. The way it's it's being steered

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00:11:11.799 --> 00:11:15.759
right now. No, Yeah,
okay, I am absolutely, And but

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that was me that you were quoting
for my podcast. Yeah, well,

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clarify your point, because maybe I
misunderstood it. I mean I was really

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I mean, I was really going
all in on this sort of on that

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hijacked raw Twitter account that I thought
was just sort of I mean, I

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thought that, you know, their
heart was in the right place, but

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the actual like I mean, I
thought it was the actual rules or rules

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the guidelines that they laid out were
stilly in kind of self contradictory, and

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the very idea of going in to
a wrestling event with an agenda like that

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kind of kind of hit me the
wrong way. I completely agree that the

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fans are integrals the product. I
mean, I talk about that in my

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book and I say it all the
time. There's nothing else like pro wrestling

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when like the fans are an equal
party in the you know, in the

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show. I mean going back to
you know, make mean fifty or even

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before you know, a heel's only
a heel if he's getting booed, and

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that's like part of the process.
Uh. And it's totally within the fans

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rights, uh and responsibility to you
know, to to to to cheer the

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guys they like, you know,
I I have a distaste for, you

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know, needlessly booing all the way
through you know, Shamus and Christian when

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they're putting on a good message with
that uh and that, you know,

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and that's and I think I was, you know, I was certainly like,

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you know, overreacting a little bit
as some of us are want to

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do when we're being you know,
media personalities. But but but yeah,

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I mean it was, uh,
you know, I think that was sort

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of an isolated incident. And and
I mean to some extent and uh and

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but I wholeheartedly endorse, you know, fans putting Brian over. I mean,

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you know, the yes chance for
the past I mean, how long

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has it been now, two years? I mean have been one of the

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best parts about about wrestling. And
just to see you know, just to

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see the fans put him, you
know, just basically drag him into the

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main event in a lot of ways
has been not just cool to watch,

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but really kind of reaffirming as a
fan, you know. And I know

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there's a lot of people out there
that feel like they're kind of being ignored

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disenfranchised by WWE. And and I
think this is a great well. If

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it's not an olive branch, a
deliberate one, it's it's at least a

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sort of like, you know,
corrective measure that I think everybody can be

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pretty happy with. Yeah, I
think they've righted the ship. And it's

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interesting because two things had to happen
for this to happen. Sampunk needed to

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00:13:28.200 --> 00:13:31.799
quit after the rumble and Batista needed
to completely flop as a babyface. I

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don't think I'm curious what you think, but I don't think we would have

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seen Monday's raw happen the way it
played out if Batista got over as a

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baby face, because generally speaking,
WWE doesn't like triple threat matches. There's

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a lot of parallels and I've been
talking about it. I talked about it

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in this week's First and Torture just
letter talked about it all week on vipaudio.

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The fascinating comparisons for Resumania thirty versus
Resumania twenty and w Restumenia ten just

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it's just one of those happy coincidences
that it's just on these ten year marks

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that these similar parallel things in history
have happened. But WWE, I think

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is landing in the right place,
but they're doings their landing somewhere that goes

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against their initial instincts. And that
happened with Brett Hard and Lex Luger twenty

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years ago. Because I just and
I want to have remembered this detail,

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exceptime I was putting up the back
issue for VIP members of the Torchoo Hutter

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from twenty years ago, and we
had an item on page two. It

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was in a little sidebar box that
was a spoiler and it said at the

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recent TV taping, they taped Lex
Luger parading around the ring with the WWF

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Championship and it's meant to air after
WrestleMania, and they needed an excuse to

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film him with the belt after his
title win, and so they filmed him

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a couple of weeks before Mania at
a taping, and they had a whole

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thing where it was like, you
know, they had a whole backstory,

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which is kind of funny, but
to explain it to the fans locally,

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so they didn't break you know,
it didn't seem like they were giving it

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away, but it was what it
was. And so it was just in

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the last two three weeks that vincick
Man was still hedging, and they finally

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just decided to go with Brett Hart
because both Luger and Brett had title shots

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against Yo Kazouna on that show.
And you know, Vince's doesn't like three

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way matches and headlines at WrestleMania.
He went with it at WrestleMania twenty with

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Hunter Michaels and Benwa, but he
didn't do it twenty years ago because three

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ways were practically not invented yet.
That was more of an ECW thing that

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started with Terry Funk, Sabu and
Shane Douglass. So they just went with

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two title defenses in one night.
So we're seeing Vincent Mann and Triple H,

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the two most powerful creative forces,
do something that if you told them

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two months ago, you're gonna have
Daniel Brian wrestling twice, Daniel Brin's gonna

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beat you, Triple H, and
then he's gonna go and beat the Peace

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and Randy Orton in a three way, which I think is the most likely

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scenario. Don't know for sure.
I think they would have thought we were

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crazy. They go what happened to
see? I'm punk? And why the

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hell were putting Daniel Bryan and the
made him in WrestleMania. So I think

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the fans, circumstances and the fans
have really made something kind of unexpected happened.

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But I think Vince and Hunter are
doing it without plugging their nose.

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I think they kind of have come
around to real eyes, this is what

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the fans want, and I think
the rejection of Batista in the way that

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that that rejection happened, combined with
us continued just passion for Brian. I

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think they get credit for adjusting their
thinking to what the fans want. And

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I think it's just a fascinating story
we're going to talk about for years.

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Invite you to email the show with
feedback or questions or comments. That email

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00:16:21.960 --> 00:16:26.679
address is Wade Keller Podcast at PTW
torch dot com. That's Wadekeller Podcast at

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00:16:26.679 --> 00:16:30.360
PW torch dot com. Also welcome
your feedback on Twitter. You can follow

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us on Twitter at PW Torch and
follow me at the Wade Keller that's at

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00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:44.360
PW Torch and at the Wade Keller. Yeah. I mean when I I

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interviewed Tribalais Shaver long ago, that
was you know, he made the points

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that that that they have, you
know, a live test market audience every

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single night that they perform, and
uh, and to think that they were

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that they would ever ignore the fans, you know, in the face of

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that is just sort of ridiculous.
And obviously that's not true under percent the

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time. There's there's many examples of
them doing just that or seeming examples.

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But but yeah, I mean,
the Luger example is a great one,

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and the lure you know, Batista
parallel is probably is pretty telling. Yeah,

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you know, I mean, there's
it's hard to imagine things going as

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wrong as they have, I mean, between the between the Batista and Punk

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things for WW you know, as
they have over the past couple of months.

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But you know, they did.
I think there's probably a lot of

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you know, it's not just that
that's that that kind of led to this

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WrestleMania shaping up in the way that
it was intended to. I think you're

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right about the Triple Threat matches.
There's a lot of little things like that,

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you know, I mean, and
and they're you know, and I

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don't think over the you know,
the past, I mean over the breadth

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of WrestleMania, but particularly the past
few years. You know that that Vince

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would even be inclined to have a
storyline running through the show like Daniel Bryan's

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is going to. I think he, you know, would rather just have

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five matches that he can build as
the biggest matches ever and just sort of

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have them as in little in their
in their you know, separate universes leading

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up to the big event. And
so you know, the storytelling going up

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to this, going up to WrestleMania
this year is is uh, you know,

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I mean, it's it's gonna be
kind of interesting because because of the

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Brian thing, but in some ways
they still sort of have him cordoned off.

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It's going to be uh, you
know, like him and Triple H

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and and then the title match are
all sort of one thing and then they

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you know, I'm sure we'll talk
about it later. But the but the

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the the Battle Royal is you know, it's it's a you know, kind

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of separate thing, keeping everything apart. But yeah, I mean, the

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the fact that Brian managed managed to
come as far as he did, and

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the fact that w W E uh, like you said, Vincent Hunter were

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were you know there to realize it
and uh and capitalize on it. I

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think is. I mean, he
got to, like I keep saying it,

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you got to be excited about it
as a wrestling fan. I mean,

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it's gonna be regardless of what happens, it's going to be a really

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cool show for for people who've been
fans of Brian and just fans of wrestling

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for a long time. I do, I do, for some reason,

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think it's more than a little likely
that Brian doesn't end up walking out with

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the title. But but the you
know, talking about Vince's tendencies, we

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all know he likes to send the
crowd home happy, especially at WrestleMania,

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So I think that definitely is working
in Brian's favor. Yeah, And I

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mean John Fermarini was on was last
week or two weeks ago XWW Creates Team

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member in tw thousand nine, twenty
ten, and he had I think it

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was Let's ride in fact, and
he predicted or thought that, yeah WrestleMania,

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that Daniel Bryan Will would not be
in the title match. This was

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before Ron Monday, and that they
would stretch it out to maybe have him

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win at SummerSlam and not give the
fans, you know, that victory.

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Now, that was before he was
added to the title match, and John

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may have changed his viewpoint based on
that structure, but I think under normal

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circumstances, I would say, yeah, you know, they'll find a way

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to go with Batista, you know, and then drag it out and have

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Daniel Brian at extreme rules, maybe
a rematch one on one because maybe Randy

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Orton and Batista together work against Brian, and then that'll stretch out to SummerSlam,

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00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:07.440
and that's when Brian on the year
anniversary of beet and Seen and winning

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00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:10.960
the title, he'll win. And
I could still see that happening. But

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my fear, and I think Vincent
manager Blade should have a healthy fear of

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this too, is fans went through
that once before already this fall, and

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I just don't know that fans want
to go on that ride again. I

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think historically, when baby faces chase
the title and get screwed over and never

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00:20:26.279 --> 00:20:30.079
get that win, there's a moment, there's a point in time where fans

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00:20:30.119 --> 00:20:33.680
lose face, blame the promotion,
or just get frustrated and two n out

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and that happened with the Road Warriors
in Chicago with Tully and Arn where there

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00:20:37.599 --> 00:20:41.240
was a dusty finish, they won
the titles and had it taken away.

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In fact, just last night I
was watching some vintage Holk Cogan a WA

319
00:20:45.160 --> 00:20:48.000
footage for my collection, and you
know, Hogan time after time looked like

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00:20:48.039 --> 00:20:51.440
he had won the title from Nick
Bockwinkle. This was, you know,

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00:20:51.480 --> 00:20:55.839
when Hoko Mania was fully formed before
he went to the WWF, and just

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00:20:55.920 --> 00:20:57.960
one one excuse after another and all
the title matches he ended up not with

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00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:02.759
the championship. And it got to
the point where Wally Carbo came out on

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00:21:02.799 --> 00:21:04.880
a WATV and said, Holk Coogan's
felt like he's let the fans down and

325
00:21:04.920 --> 00:21:07.799
he doesn't know if he's ever gonna
come back, and we need to have

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00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:11.160
a writing campaign to encourage Halkogan to
come back and let him know he hasn't

327
00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:14.079
let us down. Of course,
he was just making a lot of money

328
00:21:14.079 --> 00:21:18.720
in Japan that month and that's what
the campaign was for. But nevertheless,

329
00:21:18.759 --> 00:21:22.359
like they had to kind of string
the fans along because Verne didn't want to

330
00:21:22.359 --> 00:21:25.960
give Hulk the belt. It's it's
so ironic because it's a complete slip of

331
00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:30.680
Vince in terms of attitude, because
Dern wanted somebody who looked more like Brngania

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00:21:30.759 --> 00:21:33.319
Nickbockwinkle, Rick Martell, you know, more traditional king guy, not a

333
00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:37.319
big muscle head, and here Vince
wants a big muscle head on top.

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That's why I wanted Luger, That's
why I wanted Batista, or wanted Batista

335
00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:44.039
to work out. But you do
end up with diminishing returns at some point,

336
00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:47.480
and you can drag it out too
long. And that's that's my concern

337
00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:52.160
with not just giving Brian that that
triumphant moment at the very end of WrestleMania

338
00:21:52.519 --> 00:21:57.480
Beata the odds and then you just
have an angle where Batista goes crazy and

339
00:21:57.920 --> 00:22:00.920
you get heat on Batista, he
gets the title match, Triple H is

340
00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:04.680
freaking out and and it's three four
months, but he's to try to chase

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00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:08.599
down Daniel Brian and that's your summer. I think that's better because I just,

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00:22:08.680 --> 00:22:12.039
David, don't think fans want to
watch another series of screw jobs that

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Daniel Brian comes out on the short
end of. I agree with you,

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and you know I defended WW a
lot over the past six months, but

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but I agree that at this point, you know the hardest thing. I'm

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00:22:23.559 --> 00:22:26.759
sure you you have the same feeling
when you're writing about WW and I,

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you know, and the fans I
know feel the same way. But the

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hardest thing is in this kind of
twenty four hour wrestling world where there's you

349
00:22:33.319 --> 00:22:36.119
know, just live programming, so
you know, like you know how six

350
00:22:36.160 --> 00:22:37.880
hours a week and then and then
on Sunday, I mean, then you

351
00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:41.359
know, one Sunday a month,
is that it's really hard to wrap your

352
00:22:41.400 --> 00:22:42.759
mind around the arc of the story. You know, you don't have to

353
00:22:42.759 --> 00:22:45.000
know how it's fins how it you
know how it's going to end, but

354
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you kind of like to feel like
you know what page you're on in the

355
00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:52.279
book a little bit, and and
it's you know, back in the old

356
00:22:52.359 --> 00:22:56.079
days it was it was different.
You know, It's like you knew that

357
00:22:56.400 --> 00:22:59.039
you knew that the feud was going
to end at Starkad or whatever, whether

358
00:22:59.119 --> 00:23:02.759
or not you're you're I came out
on top. So it's you know,

359
00:23:02.920 --> 00:23:06.400
and I think that this does feel
like the like the appropriate ending or an

360
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appropriate you know, big moment in
the in the storyline. And the only

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way that I could see them pulling
it off would be to you know,

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have Triple H screw Brian somehow and
then say you know, you don't get

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any more title matches till SummerSlam,
and you know, kind of like put

364
00:23:21.160 --> 00:23:22.079
a moment out there and say that, you know, just to kind of

365
00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:26.440
give us the idea that that it'll
come back around. But I don't think,

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00:23:26.480 --> 00:23:29.640
I don't know how that could really
happen. I mean that just it

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just seems it just seems really unlikely. I yeah, I mean I'm just

368
00:23:34.920 --> 00:23:37.759
trying to I mean, you know, I'm sure there's a way that they

369
00:23:37.759 --> 00:23:41.279
could do it. I mean someone
suggested, I think probably just someone tweeted

370
00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:44.839
me or whatever. I mean,
I've heard a lot of different possible finishes

371
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do Mania just you just you know, fantasy booking, not not scoops,

372
00:23:48.559 --> 00:23:52.000
and I can a lot of them
makes some sense. Like I could imagine

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if you know, if you know, Brian was so beaten down from the

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first match, and then somehow,
you know, Batista pins Orton for the

375
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title, leaving in Brian's not even
you know, involved in the finish,

376
00:24:02.200 --> 00:24:04.440
and that gives him mistake for the
you know, forgetting the first match against

377
00:24:04.440 --> 00:24:07.559
Fatista. Like there are ways that
you can book this that would make sense

378
00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:11.400
and not be burying Brian by any
stretch. But you know, as I

379
00:24:11.400 --> 00:24:14.960
said, as you said, this
feels like the ending, you know,

380
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and it feels like at least a
moment that they need to be they need

381
00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:21.880
to they need to acknowledge it to
some degree. That said, you know,

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00:24:21.960 --> 00:24:25.599
they've been making a lot of hay
of like really really stringing this out,

383
00:24:26.079 --> 00:24:29.160
and uh, you know, all
of your historical example was a really

384
00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:30.440
good ones. You know, I
wrote I wrote a couple month or two

385
00:24:30.440 --> 00:24:36.559
ago comparing Brian to Dusty just because
you know, we all look back so

386
00:24:36.680 --> 00:24:40.880
fondly on that Dusty Horseman feud.
But but you know, Dusty was getting

387
00:24:40.960 --> 00:24:44.359
the Daniel Brian treatment pretty much the
whole time. Uh, you know,

388
00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:47.400
we all look back so fondly on
Dusty getting his leg broken in the ring

389
00:24:47.440 --> 00:24:48.839
and his arm broken in the parking
lot, and like, if that happened

390
00:24:48.880 --> 00:24:52.799
at Daniel Bryan today, people would
be, you know, showing up in

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00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:56.519
Stanford to beat up Triple h or
something. But it would be you know,

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00:24:56.680 --> 00:25:00.640
it's but there's a reason why,
you know, the Dusty Finish has

393
00:25:00.680 --> 00:25:06.119
such a bad rap, and it's
because you're holding something out there to your

394
00:25:06.119 --> 00:25:08.960
fans, and you know, willingly, you're deliberately misleading them and not having

395
00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:11.519
the balls to just go through with
what you you know, what you know

396
00:25:11.599 --> 00:25:14.920
they want to do. And I
mean and and you know you're trying to

397
00:25:14.960 --> 00:25:18.759
have your cake and eat it too. And that's not uh, you know,

398
00:25:18.880 --> 00:25:21.880
forgive me for the for for that
overused phrase, but that's exactly what

399
00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:25.680
it is. And you know it's
it's not uh, you know, they

400
00:25:25.720 --> 00:25:29.400
should they shouldn't be running their operation
that way, especially not on the biggest,

401
00:25:29.599 --> 00:25:33.559
biggest show of the year. But
yeah, and and and by the

402
00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:37.759
way that I love what you said
about Ghania and Vients having completely different ideas

403
00:25:37.799 --> 00:25:41.440
about what they wanted for champions.
The best part is how blind, how

404
00:25:41.480 --> 00:25:45.519
blind they both were the whole thing
too. How Verne was just like willfully

405
00:25:45.559 --> 00:25:48.279
blind to the fact that everybody,
and you know, everybody was cheering for

406
00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:49.839
Hogan and this might have been actually
a good way to make some money,

407
00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:53.680
and Vents for a decade was blind
to the fact that nobody bought Hogan as

408
00:25:53.680 --> 00:25:56.839
an underdog. I mean, I
guess we did because we were kids,

409
00:25:56.880 --> 00:26:00.279
but you know, they're just like
so it was it was just so yes,

410
00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:04.319
very much so. It's history repeats
itself, but in different ways in

411
00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:08.240
surprisingly different ways sometimes, so it's
pretty cool. All right, Well,

412
00:26:08.279 --> 00:26:11.440
let's, uh, let's talk about
how people can get your book for free,

413
00:26:11.519 --> 00:26:14.000
David. And first, why don't
you talk about your book and uh

414
00:26:14.119 --> 00:26:15.759
and let people know what it's all
about. They don't just have to get

415
00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:18.400
it free from audit from Audible and
the deal well we're about to offer.

416
00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:22.960
They can also pick it up in
bookstores or order it online. But talk

417
00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:26.480
about the book and and what type
of fan you think would enjoy it and

418
00:26:26.480 --> 00:26:30.559
why hopefully all kinds of wrestling fans
would enjoy it. You know, it

419
00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:33.279
started off and it's very formative stages. It was this that the series I

420
00:26:33.319 --> 00:26:37.519
was writing way back for Deadsman called
Dead Wrestler of the Week. That was

421
00:26:37.640 --> 00:26:42.519
just a series of kind of essays
about my favorite wrestlers, my childhood idols,

422
00:26:42.519 --> 00:26:47.160
and most I mean all the ones
I wrote about had had died way

423
00:26:47.160 --> 00:26:48.799
too young. I mean, we're
all familiar with that. With that series

424
00:26:48.839 --> 00:26:52.279
of events. When it started turning
into a book, it sort of evolved

425
00:26:53.680 --> 00:26:56.680
into a you know, a bigger, you know, more full fledged history

426
00:26:56.680 --> 00:27:00.160
of pro wrestling in America. And
it's not exactly one or the other it's

427
00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:03.160
somewhere in the middle. There's a
lot of history going back all the way

428
00:27:03.160 --> 00:27:07.200
to you know, the carnival side
shows and at the early early parts of

429
00:27:07.240 --> 00:27:11.240
the twentieth century on through till you
know, pretty much the modern day.

430
00:27:11.319 --> 00:27:14.799
But you know, all the esdays
are are most of the essays, I

431
00:27:14.799 --> 00:27:18.279
should say, are focus on one
wrestler, and most of those guys are

432
00:27:18.279 --> 00:27:22.640
dead. But that's just sort of
the way of the world. But you

433
00:27:22.680 --> 00:27:25.880
know, I think it's for all
kinds of people. It's for for everybody,

434
00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:29.720
you know, for for people whose
brothers stopped watching wrestling when they were

435
00:27:29.720 --> 00:27:33.519
twelve, and it's for hardcore fans
too hopefully, So appreciate anybody that checks

436
00:27:33.559 --> 00:27:38.079
it out. Very cool. The
way to get access to an audio version

437
00:27:38.279 --> 00:27:44.680
of The Squared Circle for free is
to sign up at audibletrial dot com slash

438
00:27:44.839 --> 00:27:48.200
Pro Wrestling Torch. Besides David Schuemaker's
book, there are also all Right,

439
00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:51.319
let's go to the phone lines,
David and see what our callers have to

440
00:27:51.359 --> 00:27:52.359
say. Our phone number, if
you want to get in line on the

441
00:27:52.400 --> 00:27:56.400
phone banks is six four, six, seven to one, nine to eight

442
00:27:56.559 --> 00:28:00.759
to weight and I am weight Keller
progressing torch but owinning US mid show.

443
00:28:00.920 --> 00:28:03.599
David Chumaker of brant Land dot com, the progesst and columnist for that ESPN

444
00:28:03.680 --> 00:28:08.319
website affiliate, is my guest today
on Interview Friday. Let's begin in Eric

445
00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:11.440
code nine five two. Would be
ipmember. Please state your name and where

446
00:28:11.440 --> 00:28:17.599
you're from. I'm Brian and I'm
from Minneapolis, Minnesota. Great, Brian,

447
00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:18.480
Thanks for Colin. What have you
got for David to meet a day?

448
00:28:21.400 --> 00:28:25.039
Two quick questions for you and possibly
a third little quick one. But

449
00:28:25.079 --> 00:28:26.640
you guys are talking about it at
the jump of the show, which was

450
00:28:26.759 --> 00:28:30.880
the WWE always trying to co opt
and own these things, and I think

451
00:28:30.920 --> 00:28:36.680
that's detrimental overall because they're basically the
cool they're trying to be the cool parents,

452
00:28:36.759 --> 00:28:40.559
and in the end that always results
in rejection. So when the nWo

453
00:28:40.680 --> 00:28:42.960
came out and was like the outsider
element of it, it was super hot,

454
00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:47.400
but as it got co opted and
owned over time, and eventually the

455
00:28:47.400 --> 00:28:51.319
Flat Nuts version with Jeff Jarrett was
a round no one cared. So my

456
00:28:51.519 --> 00:28:55.359
WWE trying to own these things and
not let them live somewhat organically. And

457
00:28:55.480 --> 00:28:59.319
I'm not saying they can't make money
on merchandise, but making these hashtags and

458
00:28:59.359 --> 00:29:03.759
having all this stuff I feel really
diminishes the authenticity. Bray, let me

459
00:29:03.799 --> 00:29:07.880
ask you this before I throw it
David for his sus would they how do

460
00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:11.839
you think WWE could have handled things
better at this point to still kind of

461
00:29:11.880 --> 00:29:15.920
steer things in the way that fans
wanted. Yeah, I mean these guys,

462
00:29:15.960 --> 00:29:19.079
I mean, you know Vincent company
love to pitch off all the time

463
00:29:19.079 --> 00:29:22.640
that they are big in social media. They could have done it in an

464
00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:26.000
unorthodox spiral way. That's a huge
thing on the internet that sent them discovery

465
00:29:26.359 --> 00:29:30.960
ownership for the audience. Hey,
guys, I found this video for the

466
00:29:30.119 --> 00:29:33.839
cover board that got huge thing even
though it was fake. It's something like

467
00:29:33.960 --> 00:29:38.079
that where fans get to feel like
they own it and they're not being sold

468
00:29:38.119 --> 00:29:41.720
it or given it, and that
gives ownership and that makes the moment when

469
00:29:42.160 --> 00:29:47.079
Daniel does win all the better for
the fans who feel like they're invested in

470
00:29:47.119 --> 00:29:49.279
it more than if they just buy
a product. I don't know how to

471
00:29:49.319 --> 00:29:52.880
put it. I felt it as
a kid with the nWo That's how I

472
00:29:52.960 --> 00:29:56.599
see it. Where I mean,
I knew it was owned by WCW book

473
00:29:56.640 --> 00:30:00.160
that there was that great ground.
They never try to control. It is

474
00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:06.039
always a toss fight between the two
of them. Basically, yeah, David,

475
00:30:06.079 --> 00:30:07.880
what do you think about that guy? Yeah, you know. Funnily,

476
00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:11.720
I actually we talked about this a
little bit on on my podcast Cheap

477
00:30:11.720 --> 00:30:15.000
Heat this week, and and I
and and Rosenberg used the cool dad metaphor

478
00:30:15.039 --> 00:30:18.039
two. Uh it really it really
does feel that the way a lot of

479
00:30:18.039 --> 00:30:21.640
the time. And I was saying
that they should just put w you know,

480
00:30:21.799 --> 00:30:23.319
I I was like, they should
have, they should have if Brian

481
00:30:23.400 --> 00:30:26.079
wins, they should have, you
know, t shirts printed up that just

482
00:30:26.079 --> 00:30:30.640
say finally on it and put it
and just have and have and have guys

483
00:30:30.759 --> 00:30:33.960
like WWE employees selling them out of
a van in the parking lots as if

484
00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:37.279
they're bootlegged. But that's, you
know, sort of an example of what

485
00:30:37.319 --> 00:30:38.599
he's talking about, that like,
there are viral ways to do this,

486
00:30:38.920 --> 00:30:45.359
and w W has this weird tension
between uh trying new cool things and and

487
00:30:45.359 --> 00:30:47.759
and being sort of willfully blind to
them. And I think a lot of

488
00:30:47.799 --> 00:30:49.039
that has to do with how much
of the stuff trickles all the way up

489
00:30:49.079 --> 00:30:53.559
to the top, you know.
Vince Vince's is never has never been one

490
00:30:53.559 --> 00:31:00.000
for subtlety, and I think specifically
right now, you know, with WrestleMania

491
00:31:00.400 --> 00:31:03.720
just a few weeks away, they
they you know, there's an increased effort

492
00:31:03.720 --> 00:31:10.000
to sort of hammer everything down,
own everything and make everything really really clear

493
00:31:10.079 --> 00:31:11.160
to like the six year old kids
that are watching it, you know.

494
00:31:11.200 --> 00:31:15.559
I mean, there's there's this isn't
the time of year for subtlety in particular,

495
00:31:15.920 --> 00:31:18.799
but that is that I totally agree, Like I totally agree. I

496
00:31:18.880 --> 00:31:22.839
wish that they would find ways to
do things a little bit more intelligently.

497
00:31:23.240 --> 00:31:26.480
I mean, it's it's my it's
mind bodeling to me that you can go

498
00:31:26.519 --> 00:31:30.000
on you know, shop ww shop
and find shirts that only exist for the

499
00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:33.720
sake of irony and then then watch
a product that it's like almost entirely devoid

500
00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:40.000
of irony, you know. I
mean, it's it's there's a weird need

501
00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:44.680
an extra dose of positivity in your
wrestling podcasts. Will come join me Alan

502
00:31:44.759 --> 00:31:48.440
fourrel Over in the Progress, Paradise, a Pedi retorch VIP as we mask

503
00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:52.440
on the bright side of wrestling and
focus on some of the great matches and

504
00:31:52.480 --> 00:31:57.000
shows from around the world. Be
it the US, Japan, Europe or

505
00:31:57.079 --> 00:32:01.279
Mexico. There's always a place to
wrestlings past in the Paradise too, and

506
00:32:01.319 --> 00:32:07.319
we've done fun historical shows such as
the We Love Liger series celebrating the glorious

507
00:32:07.359 --> 00:32:10.960
career of Jusian Thunderliger and our eye
was there when shows where our guests will

508
00:32:12.039 --> 00:32:15.519
join me to talk about a classic
bout that they were in attendance for.

509
00:32:15.079 --> 00:32:20.079
We love variety and you can expect
lots of it at the Proress Paradise.

510
00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:25.039
Detailed PW Torch VIP subscription information and
a list of all the VIP benefits is

511
00:32:25.079 --> 00:32:30.640
available at pterww torch vip info dot
com. And yes, all VIP podcasts

512
00:32:30.640 --> 00:32:37.000
are compatible with popular podcast apps on
iPhone and Android devices, or you can

513
00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:40.359
stream them directly from our ad free
VIP mobile site. See you in the

514
00:32:40.359 --> 00:32:51.279
Paradise. And then I find an
interview to David that that WWE has kind

515
00:32:51.319 --> 00:32:54.359
of created this monster and I'm not
saying it did not exist before. Bruce

516
00:32:54.400 --> 00:32:59.759
Mitchell, towards Senior Columnists, before
he started writing about wrestling professionally, was

517
00:32:59.799 --> 00:33:04.519
a man who attended a lot of
shows front row and he was He and

518
00:33:04.559 --> 00:33:07.319
his group of fans were very hard
on baby faces that they felt were getting

519
00:33:07.319 --> 00:33:12.039
over pushed or didn't deserve their spots, and and you know, Ricky Morton

520
00:33:12.079 --> 00:33:15.240
hated them and Sting hated them,
you know, for the things that they

521
00:33:15.240 --> 00:33:17.920
were channing, and they were very
ironic. They were pretty much regarded as

522
00:33:17.960 --> 00:33:22.119
the first well known group among wrestlers
in any territory. I'm sorry, they

523
00:33:22.119 --> 00:33:27.160
were the first group of fans who
were well known among wrestlers in any territory

524
00:33:27.160 --> 00:33:30.359
anywhere, who kind of had a
reputation among wrestlers for that kind of ironic

525
00:33:30.400 --> 00:33:36.759
channing. And so it's been around. It just so happens. Bruce Mitchell

526
00:33:36.799 --> 00:33:38.480
was part of a group that are
kind of the pioneers of it as far

527
00:33:38.519 --> 00:33:43.440
as we have been able to track
down. And you had when when Rick

528
00:33:43.480 --> 00:33:45.559
Flair was fired, Ben Jim Hurt, you know, actually John Hitchcock was

529
00:33:45.559 --> 00:33:50.960
part of front resection d held up
the sign famously on television while sitting next

530
00:33:50.960 --> 00:33:53.960
to Bruce Mitchell. We've heard enough
and and that became a big thing,

531
00:33:54.039 --> 00:33:59.480
and fans just organically were very upset
when Rick Flair was gone because he was

532
00:33:59.519 --> 00:34:00.880
the home you know, the home
team starting quarterbacks so to speak, who

533
00:34:01.200 --> 00:34:05.559
jump to the rival team WWF and
they blame management for it, and that

534
00:34:05.559 --> 00:34:07.320
goes back to the early nineties.
So this kind of thing's been around,

535
00:34:07.400 --> 00:34:09.840
but with that as a premise,
and I wanted to set that up because

536
00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:13.000
it kind of works against my point, but I want to acknowledge it.

537
00:34:13.960 --> 00:34:17.199
WWE, I think has made it
worse by and they've gotten better about it

538
00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:22.880
lately. But they kept telling the
fans it's all about you. John Cena

539
00:34:22.880 --> 00:34:24.800
would say it. Vincmc mann would
say it's deep McMahon. We are here

540
00:34:24.840 --> 00:34:29.239
to entertain you. They would say
that, and it was just I just

541
00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:30.519
my jaw dropped when they said it, because no, you're there to fight

542
00:34:30.519 --> 00:34:34.760
and win titles. It's just inherently
entertaining. You shouldn't have to tell us.

543
00:34:35.440 --> 00:34:37.480
It's like when you stand out there
and you say, are we entertaining

544
00:34:37.519 --> 00:34:40.639
or I hope we entertained you tonight. You're telling the fans start looking at

545
00:34:40.639 --> 00:34:45.519
the product critically with a critical eye
and start thinking in a way that it

546
00:34:45.559 --> 00:34:49.079
shouldn't even cross your mind to think, which is have they done what I

547
00:34:49.159 --> 00:34:52.599
want them to do for me to
be the most entertained, Because then when

548
00:34:52.639 --> 00:34:55.159
you do that, you set up
a whole fan base with a mindset that

549
00:34:55.280 --> 00:34:59.039
isn't I want to watch things unfold
and cheer for the good guys and boof

550
00:34:59.079 --> 00:35:00.199
for the guys I don't like for
whatever reasons, I don't like them,

551
00:35:00.559 --> 00:35:05.400
And instead you have them sit around
going what would I have rather seen?

552
00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:09.320
What would I have rather had them
say? To make me happier, as

553
00:35:09.320 --> 00:35:15.840
if it's all about each individual person
deciding what is best for their entertainment and

554
00:35:15.039 --> 00:35:20.079
www by doing that, having fans
vote for stipulations in matches, which I

555
00:35:20.079 --> 00:35:22.360
think is kind of stupid because a
stipulation should happen for a reason, and

556
00:35:22.360 --> 00:35:25.480
it should be decided by smart people
who are trying to create an even playing

557
00:35:25.480 --> 00:35:29.760
field or give a chance for us
or to get deservative revenge. And when

558
00:35:29.840 --> 00:35:31.880
you just let the fans vote for
the match that will quote most entertain them,

559
00:35:32.119 --> 00:35:36.239
you kind of take away the whole
reason give it matches even started,

560
00:35:36.320 --> 00:35:39.199
which is we're going to build a
cage to keep interference out so the baby

561
00:35:39.239 --> 00:35:43.480
face has an even chance against the
heel, etcetera, etcetera. Same with

562
00:35:43.559 --> 00:35:46.360
Lumberjack matches, a heel kept getting
counted out intentionally we're gonna stop that vibing

563
00:35:46.440 --> 00:35:51.000
lumberjacks. You don't have a lumberjack
match because fans think it'll entertain them.

564
00:35:51.159 --> 00:35:52.960
You have a lumberjack match because it's
to keep the heel for running out and

565
00:35:52.960 --> 00:35:57.440
getting intentionally counted out. So,
in other words, what I'm saying is

566
00:35:57.599 --> 00:36:01.039
WWE created this beast. They gave
the fans this idea that it's up to

567
00:36:01.079 --> 00:36:04.719
you to decide who you like the
best, and we should have to listen

568
00:36:04.719 --> 00:36:07.920
to you because we're all here to
entertain you, not decide who the best

569
00:36:07.960 --> 00:36:10.360
wrestler is, and you just all
are along for the ride. So that's

570
00:36:10.679 --> 00:36:15.480
speaking of irony. That's what I
find ironic, because I think WWE kind

571
00:36:15.480 --> 00:36:17.679
of created this monster we've seen the
last couple of years, last several years.

572
00:36:19.119 --> 00:36:21.519
Yeah, I think that they definitely
played a hand in it. I

573
00:36:21.559 --> 00:36:23.079
mean, I think that part of
it was just the sort of you know,

574
00:36:23.239 --> 00:36:28.119
natural evolution of a fan base that
that you know, reads a lot

575
00:36:28.159 --> 00:36:30.599
of stuff on the Internet that they
you know, they have a lot of

576
00:36:30.920 --> 00:36:35.960
knowledge that they wouldn't have necessarily had
you know that many ten, twenty thirty

577
00:36:36.039 --> 00:36:38.559
years ago. But you know,
but it's true. I mean, you

578
00:36:38.800 --> 00:36:40.719
know, you can look at it
from both sides. With a guy like

579
00:36:40.760 --> 00:36:45.039
Fandango, who I think, uh, you know, was disserved by both

580
00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:50.119
the WWE and the fans to a
certain extent, because you know, the

581
00:36:50.440 --> 00:36:53.039
fans latched on to his to his
theme song and we're singing along with it

582
00:36:53.119 --> 00:36:57.480
like crazy, and WWE said,
oh, look these you know, the

583
00:36:57.079 --> 00:37:00.039
the sorts of fans are super into
this guy, and let's let's give him

584
00:37:00.039 --> 00:37:02.280
a really big push out of the
gate. And you know, you know,

585
00:37:02.320 --> 00:37:06.360
no one stopped to think that,
no one could really take him seriously

586
00:37:06.400 --> 00:37:09.039
at that point because he was doing
such kind of a silly gimmick. But

587
00:37:09.119 --> 00:37:12.480
at the same time, I think, you know, the fans who were

588
00:37:12.599 --> 00:37:15.320
who were over engaging in that way
or doing a disservice to guys like Daniel

589
00:37:15.320 --> 00:37:19.800
Bryan. I honestly think WWE,
you know, could look at Fandango and

590
00:37:19.880 --> 00:37:22.320
say, well, they were into
him too, you know, when when

591
00:37:22.360 --> 00:37:27.079
when Brian's getting all these yes chants, so you know, it's it cuts

592
00:37:27.119 --> 00:37:29.800
both ways. But but uh,
but I definitely think you're right. I

593
00:37:29.840 --> 00:37:35.199
mean, I think that that ww
UH has invited this this this sort of

594
00:37:35.280 --> 00:37:37.800
chance. I mean, I forgot
who said it, but like, uh,

595
00:37:37.960 --> 00:37:44.320
last week, you know, Monday
before last when they were in Chicago,

596
00:37:44.440 --> 00:37:46.400
when when when Brian was lying on
the ground at the end of the

597
00:37:46.400 --> 00:37:52.039
show and the fans were just booing
like crazy. You know, Triple H

598
00:37:52.119 --> 00:37:54.480
and Stephanie didn't walk back into the
in the in the dressing room and say

599
00:37:54.519 --> 00:37:57.400
like, oh God, I wonder
why they were so mad. I mean,

600
00:37:57.400 --> 00:38:00.559
they must have been ecstatic because the
fans were really engaged. You just

601
00:38:00.599 --> 00:38:04.519
have to figure out how to take
that engagement and make it actually worthwhile and

602
00:38:04.559 --> 00:38:07.840
make it you know, you know, if the fans are going to freelance

603
00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:10.119
like that, then you have to
find you have to turn the storyline so

604
00:38:10.159 --> 00:38:15.280
that they're channing appropriately sort of,
and and you know, with putting Brian

605
00:38:15.360 --> 00:38:19.360
in the main event is certainly one
way to do that. Yeah, you

606
00:38:19.559 --> 00:38:24.079
would written. I guess that is
it. So thanks everybody, Thanks Jason,

607
00:38:24.519 --> 00:38:28.320
Thank you. Well, I mean
I think there's always going to be

608
00:38:28.320 --> 00:38:30.320
a lingering problem with the announcers.
I mean, just to take that in

609
00:38:30.679 --> 00:38:35.679
isolation, you know, I mean, you probably know about this stuff better

610
00:38:35.719 --> 00:38:38.159
than me, but but you know, I've gotten the weird impression over the

611
00:38:38.360 --> 00:38:44.159
over the years that that the really
irritated the most irritating hashtagging and whatever,

612
00:38:44.320 --> 00:38:47.039
you know, touting and sweeting and
whatever. Stuff that Cole says is not

613
00:38:47.480 --> 00:38:52.119
some like, you know, widespread. I mean, the corporation at large

614
00:38:52.119 --> 00:38:54.519
does not love this either. It's
just it's a very particular set of voices

615
00:38:54.519 --> 00:38:59.360
that are that are pushing that sort
of stuff. And it does just sort

616
00:38:59.440 --> 00:39:01.400
it does come off his phony.
And I think that Michael Cole, who

617
00:39:01.760 --> 00:39:05.719
you know, think of him whatever
you want, but he's a lot better.

618
00:39:05.760 --> 00:39:07.320
I mean, he's actually very good
at his job when he's when he's

619
00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:10.960
doing is well, he can be
very good at his job. And when

620
00:39:12.000 --> 00:39:14.880
he's doing all that touting and tweeting
stuff, that's that is his job.

621
00:39:14.920 --> 00:39:17.239
I mean he's doing an okay job
of that. But it's uh, I

622
00:39:17.239 --> 00:39:22.280
mean whatever, I mean, as
good as he is, it's it feels

623
00:39:22.320 --> 00:39:24.000
inauthentic. And that's not on him. It's just like a such a weird

624
00:39:24.039 --> 00:39:29.920
almost non sequitur when it when he
comes out with it, and and and

625
00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:31.360
I think that will continue to be
a problem. You know, I mean

626
00:39:31.400 --> 00:39:36.519
basically everything that Lawler says, uh, that's not a non sequitur. Is

627
00:39:36.639 --> 00:39:38.519
just sort of grading at this point
to me, and that's coming and that's

628
00:39:38.559 --> 00:39:42.119
I'm speaking of someone who you know, he was my first idol. I

629
00:39:42.119 --> 00:39:46.679
grew up watching Memphis Wrestling every Saturday. But but yeah, I mean,

630
00:39:46.719 --> 00:39:51.000
I guess that to the to the
larger point, you know, it's always

631
00:39:51.079 --> 00:39:53.559
going to be co opted. That's
just sort of the nature of the beast.

632
00:39:54.679 --> 00:40:00.480
But I think that I think that
it's just it it does for for

633
00:40:00.519 --> 00:40:02.320
a lot of fans. And I
wrote that, you know that that comment

634
00:40:02.400 --> 00:40:06.599
that you're that you referenced sort of
from the point of view of of you

635
00:40:06.639 --> 00:40:10.519
know, the most diehard Daniel Bryan
fans. I think for for uh,

636
00:40:10.760 --> 00:40:15.480
for for a lot of those fans
who have been waiting for so long,

637
00:40:15.639 --> 00:40:19.519
it's just sort of all happening so
quickly now, especially after what's happened in

638
00:40:19.519 --> 00:40:23.800
the past couple of weeks. And
and it's awesome to see Brian in the

639
00:40:23.840 --> 00:40:28.800
position that he's in. But there's
always but there's always going to be that

640
00:40:28.840 --> 00:40:35.079
little that that feeling of of distaste
or even discussed that you know, your

641
00:40:35.079 --> 00:40:37.280
favorite indie rock band just got number
one hit single. You know that it's

642
00:40:37.280 --> 00:40:42.000
that it's that, Yeah, and
I think that that that's a really natural

643
00:40:42.039 --> 00:40:44.800
reaction, you know, everybody.
I mean, one of the greatest,

644
00:40:45.519 --> 00:40:49.360
one of, if not the greatest, things about Daniel Bryan was feeling like

645
00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:53.199
you were part of this kind of
secret handshake club that that like gets wrestling

646
00:40:53.199 --> 00:40:59.719
on a very certain level. And
uh and you know people would if he

647
00:40:59.800 --> 00:41:04.360
and up being the quote unquote face
of WWE for any serious run. I

648
00:41:04.360 --> 00:41:07.480
think there's going to be a lot
of a lot of you know, internal

649
00:41:07.559 --> 00:41:10.840
conflict amongst a lot of fans who
don't know quite quite how to how to

650
00:41:10.880 --> 00:41:15.320
swallow it. You know, he's
he's he's the least corporate champion of all

651
00:41:15.400 --> 00:41:17.480
time, but he's still going to
be that guy. So it'll be interesting.

652
00:41:19.039 --> 00:41:20.519
Yeah. Yeah, Well, Brian, let me Trow write too,

653
00:41:20.519 --> 00:41:22.920
because you brought the subject up.
Anything to add or any new topics.

654
00:41:24.599 --> 00:41:29.119
Thanks for the no the inside that
guy. That was fabulous. My other

655
00:41:29.199 --> 00:41:32.159
question I wanted to throw at you
was back to the backside of things in

656
00:41:32.199 --> 00:41:37.400
the company, and it's it's Vince
McMahon's obsession with Hollywood and the legitimacy he

657
00:41:37.519 --> 00:41:42.360
steals it will bring to him and
that is his biggest achilles heel is that

658
00:41:42.440 --> 00:41:45.239
fact that he needed to be legitimized. And he would even bring in Freddie

659
00:41:45.239 --> 00:41:49.960
Frinz Junior with you know What's movie
to do? She's all that, and

660
00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:52.400
he gets to write Monday Night Roz
and he gets the pitch ideas that everyone

661
00:41:52.400 --> 00:41:57.519
else would have been fired for likely
or at least vanished to the corner of

662
00:41:57.559 --> 00:42:01.199
the room. And Vince's there chuckling
because he needs that adulation. And I

663
00:42:01.280 --> 00:42:05.199
just find that to be the most
funniest of things that he wants to get

664
00:42:05.239 --> 00:42:07.440
out of Odd the Nickelodeon. And
it's, in my opinion, is what

665
00:42:07.559 --> 00:42:12.039
makes him is his greatest weakness.
And I just want to hear your guys'

666
00:42:12.039 --> 00:42:14.440
thoughts on it. Sure, sure, yeah, Bran, I think David,

667
00:42:14.440 --> 00:42:19.440
we've seen from the beginning of intook
Man taking over WWE that there was

668
00:42:20.400 --> 00:42:23.960
a shame for the business he was
in, and we've seen Stephanie with that.

669
00:42:24.079 --> 00:42:28.840
When when Stephanie got more control in
the early two thousands, it became

670
00:42:29.239 --> 00:42:32.440
a lot of what WWE did became
about bringing in Hollywood writers, the ones

671
00:42:32.519 --> 00:42:37.000
that they could get who were willing
to work for non union in a non

672
00:42:37.079 --> 00:42:40.239
union situation, but coming from sitcoms
that that made them feel like, you

673
00:42:40.239 --> 00:42:43.840
know, we're a regular TV show, and you know, they introduced a

674
00:42:43.880 --> 00:42:46.920
year or two ago a showrunner,
you know, and their agents became producers

675
00:42:46.960 --> 00:42:52.159
and they're taking all these TV terms
on. And we've seen that that undercurrent

676
00:42:52.280 --> 00:42:55.719
of we're not pro wrestling promoters,
where vinccmann for a while called himself that,

677
00:42:55.880 --> 00:42:59.960
you know, or had other people
call him the next Walt Disney,

678
00:43:00.320 --> 00:43:02.960
and then it became well, we're
sports entertainment, not pro wrestling. Now.

679
00:43:04.000 --> 00:43:07.039
A lot of it was smart because
they had to reposition themselves for national

680
00:43:07.039 --> 00:43:09.280
ad campaigns, and part of this
was Dick Eversol saying, here's a language

681
00:43:09.320 --> 00:43:13.760
we need to use to make this
product palatable with NBC executives, to get

682
00:43:13.760 --> 00:43:16.840
you on Saturday nights. Made event. I'm not ignorant of that, but

683
00:43:17.559 --> 00:43:22.639
Vince McMahon, at times when he
didn't have to, continues to and his

684
00:43:22.679 --> 00:43:25.559
family Stephanie two kind of run away
from wanting to be known as just pro

685
00:43:25.599 --> 00:43:31.159
wrestling promoters. Thus the Leyland Sugar
Ray Leonard fight, thus the XFL,

686
00:43:31.480 --> 00:43:36.199
thus the World Nightclub, and trying
to do a record label right on the

687
00:43:36.280 --> 00:43:39.679
verge of Napster making that just a
really bad idea. You know, all

688
00:43:39.719 --> 00:43:44.199
these forays into other places and other
things. Part of it is just smart

689
00:43:44.239 --> 00:43:46.880
business diversification. But part of it, I think undeniably, if you've studied

690
00:43:46.960 --> 00:43:52.000
Vincent Mann and his psyche is not
wanting to just be the most successful pro

691
00:43:52.039 --> 00:43:58.239
wrestling promoter of his generation. That
hasn't been enough, And there does seem

692
00:43:58.280 --> 00:44:00.639
to be a little bit of a
mark. It's ironic, David, because

693
00:44:00.639 --> 00:44:06.559
they kind of mark out for somebody
from Hollywood who's willing to come in and

694
00:44:07.119 --> 00:44:12.679
grace and and have their presence graced
by Hollywood royalty. And sometimes it seems

695
00:44:12.679 --> 00:44:15.199
a little beneath them and kind of
like a clingy girlfriend or something, who

696
00:44:15.440 --> 00:44:19.840
is you know, like, oh, please come endorse us. What do

697
00:44:19.840 --> 00:44:22.440
you think about point Brian made and
what I kind of just said there,

698
00:44:22.559 --> 00:44:23.960
I mean, I think it's most
I think it's mostly undeniable. I mean,

699
00:44:24.079 --> 00:44:28.000
well, the one thing I will
say kind of in defense of the

700
00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:31.400
the Hollywood writer system is that you
know, that stuff started coming along at

701
00:44:31.440 --> 00:44:36.000
a time when they when they you
know, I mean they were really writing

702
00:44:36.400 --> 00:44:38.840
scripts and and like and having all
this live programming for the first time.

703
00:44:39.480 --> 00:44:43.840
Uh, and you know, a
lot of fans have over the years said,

704
00:44:44.239 --> 00:44:45.679
you know, this storyline's terrible,
why don't they just put Dusty Rose

705
00:44:45.679 --> 00:44:47.920
in charge of writing or whatever?
And you know, there's been a lot

706
00:44:47.920 --> 00:44:51.719
of great bookers who were former wrestlers, but there haven't been a lot of

707
00:44:51.719 --> 00:44:54.760
wrestlers that have experienced, uh,
you know, writing one hundred and four

708
00:44:54.920 --> 00:44:58.760
scripts the year, you know,
I mean, that's that's that's the sort

709
00:44:58.760 --> 00:45:00.239
of that's the sort of thing that
we're like, being a Hollywood writer actually

710
00:45:00.320 --> 00:45:05.559
has an advantage and most of the
guys who have come from Hollywood or wrestling

711
00:45:05.639 --> 00:45:07.960
fans or why else would they have
taken that job. You know, I

712
00:45:07.960 --> 00:45:12.360
think it more more it reflects on
the sort of top of the food chain

713
00:45:12.679 --> 00:45:17.679
and the inability to steer those people
into you know, better directions at times.

714
00:45:19.679 --> 00:45:21.880
But you're absolutely right about the rest
of the stuff. The you know,

715
00:45:22.079 --> 00:45:24.880
WW films has been you know,
even when they're focusing on wrestlers has

716
00:45:24.880 --> 00:45:29.159
been that way, and the music
and certainly the XFL like you know,

717
00:45:29.199 --> 00:45:34.239
all the stuff you mentioned. It's
it's undeniable that Vince has this, has

718
00:45:34.239 --> 00:45:37.599
this. I mean, who knows
if it's embarrassment with wrestling, or if

719
00:45:37.599 --> 00:45:38.840
it's you know, and if it's
a thing where he wants to be able

720
00:45:38.840 --> 00:45:42.960
to talk about what he's doing besides
wrestling with his buddies at the country club,

721
00:45:43.079 --> 00:45:45.920
or if it's just you know,
a desire to keep doing bigger and

722
00:45:45.960 --> 00:45:51.079
better things. It certainly has hurt
the product over the years. I mean

723
00:45:51.119 --> 00:45:53.000
it's kind of hard. It's it's
interesting to be talking about this around WrestleMania

724
00:45:53.079 --> 00:45:57.599
time, because it's hard to make
the case that the that the you know,

725
00:45:57.880 --> 00:46:00.760
crossover stars and that sort of thing
you know, isn't a good isn't

726
00:46:00.800 --> 00:46:05.159
a good thing at least for WrestleMania. I mean, it's what's made is

727
00:46:05.159 --> 00:46:07.920
what made WrestleMania in a lot of
ways. Yeah, again, David's it's

728
00:46:07.960 --> 00:46:10.679
not really binary, like all celebrities
are bad or all celebrities are good.

729
00:46:10.960 --> 00:46:14.880
I think what we're saying, I
think all of us are saying, is

730
00:46:15.119 --> 00:46:20.719
we want them to have an appropriate
level of recognition of when it's good for

731
00:46:20.760 --> 00:46:23.960
business to have that tie in versus
when they just seem like they're go just

732
00:46:24.320 --> 00:46:28.800
there's starry eyed over Oh my god, Freddy Prince Junior is on our writing

733
00:46:28.800 --> 00:46:30.960
team. This makes us so legit
Yeah, like you want them to have

734
00:46:30.960 --> 00:46:34.639
a little more dignity and a little
more pride that we were not looking to

735
00:46:34.679 --> 00:46:40.719
be legitimized by B level actors and
and guest hosts who, as John Fermrini

736
00:46:40.760 --> 00:46:44.159
said, all they want to do
is just have a fake match and wrestles.

737
00:46:44.159 --> 00:46:45.840
It's like Jay Leno did a night
you know, during the Nitro era,

738
00:46:46.079 --> 00:46:50.559
Okay, and so yeah, it's
sort of like there's times where it

739
00:46:50.559 --> 00:46:53.199
absolutely has made sense to have celebrities
there, but you want WWB to like

740
00:46:53.719 --> 00:46:59.239
not seem like they're they're they're just
graced by that being able to have somebody

741
00:46:59.239 --> 00:47:01.679
cool actually join them. Totally agree, I mean, I completely agree with

742
00:47:01.719 --> 00:47:04.760
all that. The one thing,
I mean, one thing that I'll say,

743
00:47:05.199 --> 00:47:08.280
uh, and this is totally speculative, but if there's if there's one

744
00:47:08.360 --> 00:47:12.760
really great thing that could I mean
if there I think there's many, but

745
00:47:12.800 --> 00:47:16.559
one really interesting thing that might come
out of the ww network is if you

746
00:47:16.599 --> 00:47:20.639
know, Vince really does I mean, if this affects the way that other

747
00:47:21.079 --> 00:47:24.639
I mean that other media companies operate, then maybe Vince will be happy to

748
00:47:24.679 --> 00:47:28.760
be a wrestling promoter for the first
time in a long time. Yeah,

749
00:47:28.920 --> 00:47:30.760
yeah, all right, let's go
to ourn ext phone call if you want

750
00:47:30.760 --> 00:47:34.159
to get in line. The number
is six four six seven to one nine

751
00:47:34.199 --> 00:47:37.800
A two eight. David Shoemaker of
grant Land dot com, an author of

752
00:47:37.840 --> 00:47:42.679
The Squared Circle, is my guest
today on Interview Friday on the PW Torch

753
00:47:42.719 --> 00:47:45.239
Live Cast. Don't forget. You
can listen to the show live Monday through

754
00:47:45.239 --> 00:47:50.639
Friday and Sundays a half hour after
pay per views end at PW torchlivecast dot

755
00:47:50.639 --> 00:47:54.719
com. That is a homepage for
this show. PW torch livecast dot com

756
00:47:54.760 --> 00:47:59.599
for daily news updates, editorial,
special features, live pay per view coverage,

757
00:47:59.719 --> 00:48:02.559
and breaking news PW torch dot com. By the way, the place

758
00:48:02.599 --> 00:48:07.000
to go for breaking news on MMA
is MMA torch dot com, and we

759
00:48:07.039 --> 00:48:12.000
have breaking news during the show.
Johnny Hendrix for tomorrow's title fight failed to

760
00:48:12.039 --> 00:48:15.320
make weight and he has two hours
to drop a pound and a half.

761
00:48:15.599 --> 00:48:21.800
Who yes, So follow that story
as it develops at mmatorch dot com or

762
00:48:21.840 --> 00:48:25.000
on the MMA Torch app Just an
embarrassing moment. Rich Hanson, an MMA

763
00:48:25.000 --> 00:48:28.679
Torch columnists, by the way,
predicted that earlier this week. I don't

764
00:48:28.679 --> 00:48:34.360
know how he managed to, but
he just tweeted that he called that one

765
00:48:34.480 --> 00:48:37.800
so fascinating story developing, not one
that I think any of us want to

766
00:48:37.800 --> 00:48:40.920
hear about, but we'll we'll see
the ramifications, and he commented, Johnny

767
00:48:40.920 --> 00:48:44.800
did I just noticed and said that
he thought they made weight so they must

768
00:48:44.800 --> 00:48:49.119
have had a really bad scale or
something. You can support us on Patreon

769
00:48:49.280 --> 00:48:52.119
and get these shows with ads and
plugs removed, the weight Keller Prosing podcast,

770
00:48:52.199 --> 00:48:57.159
Weight Keller Prosing post shows and the
PW Torch daily cast throughout the week

771
00:48:57.440 --> 00:49:01.000
with ads and plugs removed, plus
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772
00:49:01.239 --> 00:49:05.280
for just four dollars and ninety nine
cents a month. Check it out patreon

773
00:49:05.360 --> 00:49:10.119
dot com slash PW Torch vi i
P. That's patreon dot com slash PW

774
00:49:10.159 --> 00:49:15.599
Torch VIP and you can also upgrade
to other tiers and receive even more benefits

775
00:49:15.639 --> 00:49:22.880
through Patreon. Anyway, let's go
back to wwe Talk here and go to

776
00:49:22.920 --> 00:49:27.639
our next caller and go to area
code seven seven three on deck by the

777
00:49:27.639 --> 00:49:30.239
way, five seven zero seven seven
three. Thanks for joining me. Please

778
00:49:30.239 --> 00:49:35.079
state your name and where you're from. Boris from Chicago, Hey, Bors,

779
00:49:35.079 --> 00:49:37.800
what have you got for David?
Today? I was listening to you

780
00:49:37.840 --> 00:49:43.800
guys, and I just want to
I answered this question on the you know,

781
00:49:44.440 --> 00:49:47.280
on previously on the others Hi on
the other show, and we are

782
00:49:47.280 --> 00:49:51.039
getting the course, we are getting
complaints for people asking the same question day

783
00:49:51.039 --> 00:49:57.840
after day, So try to spin
it originally, just use a different adjective.

784
00:49:57.840 --> 00:50:04.400
That'll be good enough. All right, Well, that's what I try

785
00:50:04.440 --> 00:50:07.559
to do. What I had asked
was that since we didn't seen the show

786
00:50:07.599 --> 00:50:15.480
in Chicago, and we've seen the
show in the show where the Memphis what

787
00:50:15.639 --> 00:50:20.400
Danny Bryant got is Tyler's shodey,
which one would you have preferred if if

788
00:50:20.440 --> 00:50:23.440
this was done, you know,
without the way we had to get there

789
00:50:23.679 --> 00:50:29.760
Chicago, or like you're saying,
bors, would it have been more interesting

790
00:50:29.800 --> 00:50:34.119
to have Monday show this week in
Chicago? Yeah? Okay, well that

791
00:50:34.119 --> 00:50:37.119
that is an interesting scenario, yeah, David, you know, because I

792
00:50:37.119 --> 00:50:40.960
mean, cities are different, you
know, and sometimes they change event to

793
00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:45.480
event. Minneapolis is actually kind of
unpredictable in what kind of makeup they're going

794
00:50:45.519 --> 00:50:49.880
to have it. It really depends
on Minneapolis will fill you know, eighty

795
00:50:49.920 --> 00:50:53.880
percent of eighty to one hundred percent
of Target Center or Xcel Energy Center for

796
00:50:54.559 --> 00:50:58.480
just about every show WW becomes with. But sometimes the crowd makeup is very

797
00:50:58.480 --> 00:51:01.000
different depending on who's had a lot
of product is. Other towns are just

798
00:51:01.079 --> 00:51:06.840
very identified with having being somewhat passive
and or being a little more pro Sena

799
00:51:06.920 --> 00:51:10.199
or being very anti Sena. It's
interesting, how would the show have been

800
00:51:10.239 --> 00:51:16.360
different on Monday had through happenstance this
everything script wise that was meant to play

801
00:51:16.400 --> 00:51:20.880
out happened Monday, but in Chicago
not Memphis. Huh, I mean,

802
00:51:20.880 --> 00:51:24.000
I don't want to I I I'm
reluctant to give WW too much credit,

803
00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:28.239
but this is the sort of thing
that they actually probably uh would would have

804
00:51:28.320 --> 00:51:31.079
been very aware of. It would
have been awesome for Brian to have that

805
00:51:31.119 --> 00:51:36.079
moment in Chicago. But the week
I mean, but if it had happened

806
00:51:36.119 --> 00:51:39.159
two weeks ago, I mean,
wwe might have saved Brian. They may

807
00:51:39.159 --> 00:51:43.159
have may have totally saved Brian because
if he had gotten drowned out by punk

808
00:51:43.239 --> 00:51:46.119
chance. Just imagine what would have
happened, you know, the fact the

809
00:51:46.119 --> 00:51:49.400
way that the way that it happened
in Memphis with it where they had a

810
00:51:49.400 --> 00:51:52.639
little bit more control. I think
was you know, the very w W

811
00:51:52.840 --> 00:51:57.119
way to do it, but it
also was was a really smart way.

812
00:51:58.000 --> 00:52:00.079
I think that they, you know, were really I mean, I thought,

813
00:52:00.159 --> 00:52:04.360
this is not a personal opinion,
they were really hamstrung by Punk walking

814
00:52:04.360 --> 00:52:07.199
out and by having that show in
Chicago. And you know, you can

815
00:52:07.239 --> 00:52:12.079
look at that entire show and just
watch the way that they built it be

816
00:52:12.199 --> 00:52:15.199
completely about crowd reaction, you know, I mean from Hayman coming out at

817
00:52:15.199 --> 00:52:19.440
the beginning on, they were just
doing everything they could to rest some sort

818
00:52:19.480 --> 00:52:22.800
of control out of that. But
yeah, I don't know, I'm interested

819
00:52:22.800 --> 00:52:24.000
in what you think. I mean, I think I don't think that Brian

820
00:52:24.039 --> 00:52:28.079
would have gotten killed by Punk chance, but they had to be cognizant that

821
00:52:28.000 --> 00:52:31.360
that was a possibility. Yeah,
And you know the feeling I got coming

822
00:52:31.400 --> 00:52:35.800
out of the Chicago events, and
some people have have disagreed with this,

823
00:52:35.840 --> 00:52:37.679
and I mean I respect that.
I think it's open for interpretation, but

824
00:52:38.199 --> 00:52:43.400
I feel pretty firmly Monday in Chicago, we could go money in Chicago showed

825
00:52:43.440 --> 00:52:45.679
that, Yeah, Chicago loves Sea
On Punk. But I think a lot

826
00:52:45.679 --> 00:52:52.639
of fans realized Punk quit management didn't
fire him. They didn't refuse to renew

827
00:52:52.639 --> 00:52:54.679
his deal. Punk walked out months
before his contract go was up, and

828
00:52:54.719 --> 00:52:59.199
I don't think people be grudged Punk
doing it because they I think people have

829
00:52:59.559 --> 00:53:01.960
faith and Phil Brooks that that if
if that's something he felt he had to

830
00:53:02.000 --> 00:53:05.119
do, there had to be good
reason, and so we'll respect that.

831
00:53:05.239 --> 00:53:08.480
And he's not talking publicly. He's
not complaining about WWE. He's not going

832
00:53:08.519 --> 00:53:10.679
out there and airing his laundry and
talking about, oh, I've got this

833
00:53:10.719 --> 00:53:15.760
personal issue or oh I'm burned out. He just told Vince I can't do

834
00:53:15.760 --> 00:53:17.760
it anymore. Whatever happened beyond that
closed door, walked out and for the

835
00:53:17.760 --> 00:53:21.199
most part kept to himself other than
you know, being hanging out at the

836
00:53:21.199 --> 00:53:27.239
Cool Kids table with Dana White at
usc and now doing the Talking Dead show

837
00:53:27.280 --> 00:53:29.360
this Sunday night. But other than
that, you know, he's not really

838
00:53:29.360 --> 00:53:31.000
doing a lot publicly. He's not
talking about it, and I think fans

839
00:53:31.039 --> 00:53:35.440
in even in Chicago, thought,
well, if Punk doesn't want to be

840
00:53:35.519 --> 00:53:40.159
here, we got Daniel Bryan.
I don't think Chicago fans are exclusively Punk

841
00:53:40.239 --> 00:53:44.960
fans more than Daniel Brian just because
Punk is their guy, especially when it

842
00:53:44.960 --> 00:53:46.800
seems like Daniel Brian wants to be
there and Punk doesn't. And by the

843
00:53:46.800 --> 00:53:50.960
way, I'm not saying anything I
don't think Punk would disagree with because Punk

844
00:53:51.039 --> 00:53:53.400
himself David had said this is Daniel
Bryan's time, and I think part of

845
00:53:53.440 --> 00:53:57.360
punk leaving might have had to do
with the idea. And again I think

846
00:53:57.400 --> 00:54:00.159
it's it's just a small contributing factor, but it was sort of like,

847
00:54:00.519 --> 00:54:05.719
do I want to overstay my welcome
or stay long enough where it's clear that

848
00:54:05.840 --> 00:54:08.639
I've been passed up by not just
maybe Daniel Bryan, but the Shield,

849
00:54:08.679 --> 00:54:13.599
the White Family in terms of wrestlers
who are being booked well with upsides,

850
00:54:13.599 --> 00:54:15.360
and it's kind of exciting to see
the trajectory. I think Punk sort of

851
00:54:15.400 --> 00:54:19.559
saw himself on a trajectory and maybe
was a few months ahead of the curve

852
00:54:19.599 --> 00:54:22.480
of thinking I'm cooling off. I
don't want to be around to be cold.

853
00:54:22.719 --> 00:54:25.679
I want to walk out before that
happened. So I'm introducing too many

854
00:54:25.679 --> 00:54:32.199
things here, but I think the
Chicago fans might have been okay being there

855
00:54:32.320 --> 00:54:36.800
an eyewitness to exactly what happened on
Monday, and I don't know that they

856
00:54:36.800 --> 00:54:38.679
would have drawn out Daniel Bryan because
I think Chicago see On Punk fans are

857
00:54:38.719 --> 00:54:43.119
also Chicago Daniel Brian fans. Yeah, I agree with that, but I

858
00:54:43.119 --> 00:54:45.480
also Bean, but down in that
particular Monday, I think that they,

859
00:54:45.559 --> 00:54:47.840
you know, they were a lot
of people thought that he could have been

860
00:54:47.840 --> 00:54:51.679
coming back, and so it was
you know, yeah that I mean,

861
00:54:51.719 --> 00:54:53.920
I think if they were back in
Chicago this Monday, then then it would

862
00:54:53.960 --> 00:54:58.599
be a wholehearted support for Daniel Bryan. You're right here, You're right,

863
00:54:58.639 --> 00:55:00.000
Wight. Let me, David,
I hate don't, but let me,

864
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:01.000
I mean, clarify what you're saying. I think it's a great point that

865
00:55:01.079 --> 00:55:05.800
I wasn't thinking of. Fans were
still thinking maybe CM punk would be taking

866
00:55:05.800 --> 00:55:09.480
on Triple H. So as soon
as you established that Daniel Bryan's taking on

867
00:55:09.480 --> 00:55:13.679
Triple H and then the winner got
the title shot, you're saying that would

868
00:55:13.960 --> 00:55:15.440
do what the opposite of what ww
we wanted to do to in Chicago,

869
00:55:15.480 --> 00:55:20.119
which is give fans hope to the
very last minute that seem Punk might show

870
00:55:20.199 --> 00:55:22.719
up. Yeah. Yeah, I
mean I think they, I mean,

871
00:55:22.760 --> 00:55:24.159
they were they were well, I
mean, I don't know how much they

872
00:55:24.159 --> 00:55:28.719
wanted fans to think that but that
was certainly the way it felt. Yeah.

873
00:55:28.840 --> 00:55:30.880
Yeah, but but it's a you
know it that that was that was

874
00:55:30.920 --> 00:55:35.960
a that was a high wire act
that week and U and you know it

875
00:55:36.000 --> 00:55:37.400
will all be talking about it for
I mean, I don't know for a

876
00:55:37.400 --> 00:55:39.440
long time. I mean, I
think you're right that, I mean that

877
00:55:39.519 --> 00:55:45.960
fans are are you know, I
mean, it gonna be gonna be you

878
00:55:45.960 --> 00:55:49.440
know, they're they're not gonna they're
not gonna punish Daniel Brian going forward for

879
00:55:49.440 --> 00:55:52.400
for for not being CM Punk.
I mean, I think you're right.

880
00:55:52.440 --> 00:55:55.320
Everybody kind of has a grasp on
what's going on, uh and that Punk's

881
00:55:55.400 --> 00:55:58.760
not coming back, and that Punk
had his reasons or whatever. I mean,

882
00:55:58.800 --> 00:56:00.880
I think I wrote this. I
know I think Punk personally it is

883
00:56:00.960 --> 00:56:06.880
just my feeling kind of had a
vision for like he always has about how

884
00:56:06.920 --> 00:56:08.880
he thinks is the next year of
his career should go. And I think

885
00:56:08.920 --> 00:56:13.159
that when the WrestleMania, you know, when the when the match plan sort

886
00:56:13.199 --> 00:56:16.920
of came down the pipeline, I
think that he realized the first time that

887
00:56:16.960 --> 00:56:21.159
he wasn't going to get kind of
a victory lap for his last six months,

888
00:56:21.159 --> 00:56:23.559
that he probably would be putting other
people over for his last six months

889
00:56:24.239 --> 00:56:28.400
as anybody else would. And I
think that that kind of hit him and

890
00:56:28.400 --> 00:56:30.239
and you know, hit him hard, and and and and and led him

891
00:56:30.239 --> 00:56:36.559
to rethink some things because you know, everybody goes out on their back,

892
00:56:37.280 --> 00:56:39.679
or most people do, but you
know, in the modern WW, you

893
00:56:39.760 --> 00:56:43.599
kind of go out on your back
for for for five or six months,

894
00:56:43.679 --> 00:56:46.320
you know, until uh, you
know, they they still certainly keep using

895
00:56:46.360 --> 00:56:49.800
you, just like they would you
know, use Jericho every time he comes

896
00:56:49.840 --> 00:56:52.840
back. But uh but you know, it's not like they don't. They

897
00:56:52.880 --> 00:56:55.000
don't have much vested interest in putting
you over if if you don't have a

898
00:56:55.039 --> 00:56:59.440
contract, you know that to stick
around for a while. So you know,

899
00:56:59.480 --> 00:57:00.880
I think, yeah, I think
we're saying the same thing though,

900
00:57:01.440 --> 00:57:05.840
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It
would have been interesting to find out if

901
00:57:05.840 --> 00:57:10.320
fans would be willing to embrace Daniel
Bryan in Chicago, if it was driving

902
00:57:10.320 --> 00:57:15.400
home the finality that Punk will beer. I thought that wwe wanted to have

903
00:57:15.440 --> 00:57:17.159
that hope alive to the very end, even was because Paul Hayman's saying Punk

904
00:57:17.199 --> 00:57:22.320
isn't here is basically guaranteeing Punk is
there. I mean, Paul Hayman is

905
00:57:22.320 --> 00:57:25.000
not knowing yet the truth teller.
So like I just I love that it's

906
00:57:25.039 --> 00:57:29.000
like cmpunk is not in the building. And I thought that was their way

907
00:57:29.320 --> 00:57:31.000
of having kind of, as you
said, having their cake and eating it

908
00:57:31.039 --> 00:57:35.360
too, which is we told you
he wasn't here, but we had Hayman

909
00:57:35.440 --> 00:57:37.840
say it, which means he probably
is here, and maybe the Paul Hayman

910
00:57:37.920 --> 00:57:42.920
character doesn't know he's here, and
that's our cover. And up to the

911
00:57:43.000 --> 00:57:45.119
very end, I mean, the
whole main event looked like it was set

912
00:57:45.159 --> 00:57:49.199
up for cmpunk to run in and
tryan and so I do think they wanted

913
00:57:49.239 --> 00:57:53.519
to keep the fans not I think
the moment that the fans felt one hundred

914
00:57:53.519 --> 00:57:57.599
percent Punk wasn't there. If they
had done anything in the middle of the

915
00:57:57.639 --> 00:58:00.360
show to do that, or even
the last half hour, I think fans

916
00:58:00.440 --> 00:58:02.480
might there was fear that the fans
might have gotten unruly. Now I don't

917
00:58:02.480 --> 00:58:07.880
think that crowd was as worked up
as the quote underground Internet movement made it

918
00:58:07.880 --> 00:58:09.920
seem like it was going to be. I think the crowd, the vast

919
00:58:09.960 --> 00:58:14.360
majority of the fans in Chicago were
there to see the shield and the White

920
00:58:14.400 --> 00:58:16.199
family and a lot of them are
there to cheer John Cena because they're John

921
00:58:16.199 --> 00:58:20.480
Cena fans, and a lot of
them are part of the Daniel Bryant movement,

922
00:58:20.559 --> 00:58:24.079
Yes, movement, and we just
kind of overestimated because of the summer

923
00:58:24.119 --> 00:58:28.519
of punk that it's just always like
that in the vast majority of fans in

924
00:58:28.559 --> 00:58:31.280
Chicago are all these frenzied seeing punk
fans wanting to hijack a show. I

925
00:58:31.280 --> 00:58:36.679
thought it turned out to be a
tamer crowd then it could have been or

926
00:58:36.719 --> 00:58:38.840
that WWE feared it was, and
I thought it was mostly fans who were

927
00:58:38.920 --> 00:58:43.280
Daniel Bryan and John Cena and Shield
fans, not Punk fans. So I

928
00:58:43.280 --> 00:58:50.480
think but WW, I think was
right to be prepared for fans freaking out

929
00:58:50.599 --> 00:58:52.760
if it became one hundred percent clear
Punk wasn't running in at the end.

930
00:58:53.079 --> 00:58:58.760
I thought, to the last ten
seconds Punk might run in. John Javerni

931
00:58:58.840 --> 00:59:00.760
on Twitter said, I guarantee a
hundredercent Punk's going to run into the main

932
00:59:00.760 --> 00:59:04.199
events, you know, within the
last ten minutes. Then he talked about

933
00:59:04.199 --> 00:59:07.639
that last Friday. He was just
wrong. So I think they and that's

934
00:59:07.679 --> 00:59:08.639
I think what was really you know, you call it a highera activit.

935
00:59:08.679 --> 00:59:13.239
I thought it was really smart to
give fans hope to the end so that

936
00:59:13.559 --> 00:59:15.920
they didn't have a chance to kind
of organize and rebel and kind of screw

937
00:59:16.000 --> 00:59:19.840
up whatever they wanted to accomplish otherwise. Yeah, I think I think that

938
00:59:19.800 --> 00:59:22.440
that's that makes a lot of sense. I mean I kind of lumped it

939
00:59:22.480 --> 00:59:25.800
in with with with the Rumble and
in the way that they you know,

940
00:59:25.840 --> 00:59:30.400
it wasn't as it wasn't as as
clear cut as the way you know,

941
00:59:30.639 --> 00:59:32.840
you were rightly talking about Chicago Raw. But you know, I think that

942
00:59:32.880 --> 00:59:37.840
they at the Rumble they projected Daniel
Bryan to be the thirtieth entry just by

943
00:59:37.880 --> 00:59:38.920
not talking about it, you know. I mean, it was that same

944
00:59:38.960 --> 00:59:43.239
thing, by like they were kind
of going against the unwritten rules of how

945
00:59:43.280 --> 00:59:45.880
you do a wrestling show or abiding
by them, and then and then pulling

946
00:59:45.880 --> 00:59:47.880
the rug out from under the end. And but that couldn't have been on

947
00:59:47.920 --> 00:59:51.840
purpose. I mean, maybe I
don't think that was on purpose, and

948
00:59:51.920 --> 00:59:53.440
so that's how I had lumped in
the Chicago pump thing. But I think,

949
00:59:53.440 --> 00:59:57.559
but what you're saying makes a lot
of sense that they were risking a

950
00:59:57.679 --> 01:00:00.199
sort of full fledged revolt if they
had done it. Uh, you know,

951
01:00:00.239 --> 01:00:04.199
if they if they had been clearer
about it. But that's the you

952
01:00:04.239 --> 01:00:07.159
know, that's the hard thing.
Like how do you tell I mean and

953
01:00:07.199 --> 01:00:12.320
I'm not even talking about you know, avoiding a riot, but like literally,

954
01:00:12.360 --> 01:00:15.840
how do you tell that crowd that
CM punk isn't going to be there

955
01:00:15.840 --> 01:00:17.440
and have them believe it. I
don't think there's any way any way to

956
01:00:17.480 --> 01:00:21.440
do it. Yeah, I mean, you're right about about Hayman's role,

957
01:00:21.960 --> 01:00:23.320
but like, you know, I
mean, what if, like Lillian Garcia

958
01:00:23.320 --> 01:00:25.960
said, it would have been more
legitimate, if Triple Ahent said it would

959
01:00:25.960 --> 01:00:29.599
have been more legitimate. I mean
I think that if you say it,

960
01:00:29.760 --> 01:00:32.280
you're automatically calling it into question.
Uh. And if you don't say it,

961
01:00:32.320 --> 01:00:35.559
then it seems like they're leading them
on even more, you know,

962
01:00:35.800 --> 01:00:40.079
So it's weird. I think CM
punk could have shown up, like uh,

963
01:00:40.199 --> 01:00:45.559
done a tout video of himself at
an NBA game that night across the

964
01:00:45.599 --> 01:00:52.159
country and wwe could have played it
and fans would still think that that guarantee

965
01:00:52.199 --> 01:00:53.760
he's in the building because they I
would have that would have been that.

966
01:00:53.920 --> 01:00:57.880
I mean, there's no way to
convince some fans it wasn't gonna happen.

967
01:00:58.079 --> 01:01:00.880
Let's go to a couple of other
phone calls here, and who did I

968
01:01:00.880 --> 01:01:02.360
say? It was? Next?
Five to seven? Oh? On five

969
01:01:02.320 --> 01:01:07.360
to seven? Oh, please state
your name and where you're from. Larry,

970
01:01:07.440 --> 01:01:09.480
Hey, Larry, thanks for calling. What have you got for David

971
01:01:09.480 --> 01:01:15.039
and me today? I'll be going
on late days. A new VIP member

972
01:01:15.039 --> 01:01:17.679
by the way, Oh great?
Do you like it? Yeah, I've

973
01:01:17.719 --> 01:01:22.719
been going through the website there there's
so much content, like kind of overwhelmed.

974
01:01:22.760 --> 01:01:25.760
Actually, yeah, yeah, I
know. It's I literally had somebody

975
01:01:25.800 --> 01:01:30.480
say yesterday he put off going VIP
for a couple of years because he felt

976
01:01:31.000 --> 01:01:36.000
like it would just take over all
his other podcasts and his life and all

977
01:01:36.039 --> 01:01:37.880
that, and but he finally gave
in. And now he said his trips

978
01:01:37.920 --> 01:01:39.920
to the gym are going to be
more frequent because he's gonna have to keep

979
01:01:39.960 --> 01:01:43.159
up on the audio. He's really
liked so far. But yeah, I

980
01:01:43.440 --> 01:01:50.199
have to tell people pw torch dot
com slash go vip searching for more great

981
01:01:50.199 --> 01:01:52.679
pro wrestling talk, then join me. Jason Powell, host of the three

982
01:01:52.719 --> 01:01:57.719
weekly Pro Wrestling Boom podcast. Each
week, he'll hear the latest news and

983
01:01:57.760 --> 01:02:00.599
analysis for me and my team at
Pro Wrestling NED along with other pro wrestling

984
01:02:00.599 --> 01:02:06.599
media members. Plus the Pro Wrestling
Boom podcast features long form interviews with notable

985
01:02:06.639 --> 01:02:09.559
names in the pro wrestling industry.
Subscribe and iTunes, Stitcher, Downcast,

986
01:02:09.599 --> 01:02:15.079
and all your favorite secondary apps,
or visit us directly at PW boom dot

987
01:02:15.079 --> 01:02:23.280
com. Once again, that's PW
boom dot coming back to you and thank

988
01:02:23.320 --> 01:02:29.679
you for triggering beavel forgot to plug
it. Yeah, I look forward to

989
01:02:29.800 --> 01:02:32.320
checking out those paper views and seeing
which one I want to watch that on

990
01:02:32.360 --> 01:02:37.639
the network. That's not pretty cool. Yeah, I found my favorite thing

991
01:02:37.639 --> 01:02:40.519
that you guys do. Man,
it's really cool. Thank Yeah. I

992
01:02:40.559 --> 01:02:47.199
know you called to do more than
just trigger up plug as one as one

993
01:02:47.199 --> 01:02:55.480
shareholder in WWE, I as a
man that Daniel Bryant wins the WrestleMania Yeah,

994
01:02:55.599 --> 01:03:00.119
because it's best for business? All
right, all right, you got

995
01:03:00.239 --> 01:03:02.719
add that line? Hey real quick, I'm watching the nineteen ninety three Rods

996
01:03:04.280 --> 01:03:06.920
on the network, and when did
they switch? When did they go to

997
01:03:06.960 --> 01:03:10.599
arenas? Then when did they start
going to the arena? Well, I

998
01:03:10.639 --> 01:03:14.480
mean, r you're talking about it
because they were in Manhattan Center at the

999
01:03:14.480 --> 01:03:17.239
beginning. Yeah, that was about
I mean I think they just went to

1000
01:03:17.280 --> 01:03:21.840
arenas at the next taping. But
what they did mostly at that time because

1001
01:03:21.840 --> 01:03:24.440
they would ta tape ros every three
or four weeks, they would do multiple

1002
01:03:24.440 --> 01:03:29.920
shows at once and then and they
tended to stick to the Northeast where they

1003
01:03:29.960 --> 01:03:34.320
had traditionally done TV tapings because they
it was a mentality and it's totally foreign

1004
01:03:34.320 --> 01:03:37.519
today, Larry, but the idea
was, we're not going to draw a

1005
01:03:37.519 --> 01:03:39.280
big crowd for a TV taping.
We got to save house shows for the

1006
01:03:39.280 --> 01:03:44.119
big arenas for TVs. Because it
had kind of evolved slowly over time.

1007
01:03:44.119 --> 01:03:47.320
But TV tapings often were like the
AWA used to do TV tapings at a

1008
01:03:47.360 --> 01:03:51.599
TV studio, you know, just
next to the where the newscasts were done,

1009
01:03:51.639 --> 01:03:53.440
and they would have three rows of
seats. David Eu reference Memphis earlier.

1010
01:03:53.559 --> 01:03:57.159
You know, the WMCTV studio was
host to all the TV shows.

1011
01:03:57.239 --> 01:03:59.599
Because the idea was, we're not
going to give away Maine event matches on

1012
01:03:59.679 --> 01:04:02.480
TV. We give away squash matches
and a rare mid carter versus mid Carter,

1013
01:04:02.800 --> 01:04:05.440
and so we have to just go
to smaller towns who are just happy

1014
01:04:05.480 --> 01:04:10.000
to see US, and part of
it was the logistics of bringing the TV

1015
01:04:10.079 --> 01:04:14.800
equipment across the country too, so
you'll see a lot of shows in you

1016
01:04:14.840 --> 01:04:17.960
know, Connecticut and Pennsylvania. I
went to a raw taping twenty years ago

1017
01:04:18.000 --> 01:04:23.920
at bush Kill, Pennsylvania and what
was essentially like a tent and so,

1018
01:04:24.159 --> 01:04:27.760
but you'll start to see roz at
at smaller, mid sized market buildings as

1019
01:04:28.079 --> 01:04:30.199
as Rod progressed, it was only
really during the Monday Night War when Vincent

1020
01:04:30.199 --> 01:04:33.719
Man was pushed into doing main event
matches to compete with Nitro, which he

1021
01:04:33.760 --> 01:04:36.599
complained to me about having to do
and how he still does it because it's

1022
01:04:36.599 --> 01:04:41.840
a different world, I guess with
all the TV revenue. But then they

1023
01:04:41.840 --> 01:04:44.960
started going to the to the larger
arenas and really shining them up. But

1024
01:04:45.239 --> 01:04:47.599
it was just kind of an evolution
that you'll start seeing pretty quickly as they

1025
01:04:47.599 --> 01:04:50.960
air more of the older ones.
Okay, because I was wondering, because

1026
01:04:50.960 --> 01:04:54.280
I'm on an episode nineteen right now, and I was just wondering when they

1027
01:04:54.480 --> 01:04:57.079
you know, it seems like they're
in the same place. Yeah, no,

1028
01:04:57.440 --> 01:04:59.840
they go to some of the same
places, but you're not going to

1029
01:04:59.840 --> 01:05:01.599
see even though good Giant arenas for
a while, but you know, they're

1030
01:05:01.639 --> 01:05:03.880
still in places that can have hockey
games. I mean, they're not all

1031
01:05:03.920 --> 01:05:06.760
just Manhattan Center type places. I
don't think in those eight years. Weirdly,

1032
01:05:06.760 --> 01:05:10.239
men and Manhattan Center is bigger than
it looks. But you're right,

1033
01:05:10.280 --> 01:05:13.000
it does seem like they just sort
of like tape or they're taping multiple shows

1034
01:05:13.039 --> 01:05:18.079
at once. The only thing that
changes is Vince's tracksuit and uh it but

1035
01:05:18.119 --> 01:05:20.039
it's you know, it's it's awesome
to go back and look at it.

1036
01:05:20.039 --> 01:05:23.960
But you're right, it's crazy how
much everything has changed. Yeah, yeah,

1037
01:05:24.159 --> 01:05:27.039
I love that. I love that
because I mean I have all these

1038
01:05:27.039 --> 01:05:29.400
in my tape collection, Like people
aren't gonna watch for some of the network

1039
01:05:29.440 --> 01:05:31.719
and I'm like, except for like
these early eighties world class shows, Like

1040
01:05:31.800 --> 01:05:34.440
I have all of this and I've
transferred them all the DVD and they're all

1041
01:05:34.480 --> 01:05:38.840
in my three ring notebooks, you
know, all my you know, they're

1042
01:05:38.840 --> 01:05:42.880
all in my DVD cases. Like
I I've had access to basically every Raw

1043
01:05:43.119 --> 01:05:46.800
since Raw aired. So but I'm
excited because it makes reading about it in

1044
01:05:46.840 --> 01:05:49.960
the newsletter and our coverage of it
at that time all the more relevant to

1045
01:05:49.960 --> 01:05:53.800
this whole new audience who now gets
actually watch it and experience it. And

1046
01:05:54.119 --> 01:05:56.199
I know, as a fan,
if I were doing that, I'd want

1047
01:05:56.239 --> 01:05:59.960
to go read what people were writing
about it at the time because the coverage

1048
01:06:00.119 --> 01:06:02.559
of it in context in that moment
it is different than looking back on it

1049
01:06:02.599 --> 01:06:04.599
in hindsight. So it's kind of
fun to look at those back issues for

1050
01:06:04.639 --> 01:06:09.079
that reason. Yeah, I totally, I totally agree with that. It's

1051
01:06:09.159 --> 01:06:12.960
it's it's it's it's it's amazing to
go back and watch his old raw is

1052
01:06:13.000 --> 01:06:15.679
just to be blown away. But
it's weird to watch it without any kind

1053
01:06:15.719 --> 01:06:17.639
of without any kind of grounding in, like you know, the writing that

1054
01:06:17.719 --> 01:06:20.519
was going on. So it's awesome
to have all that stuff. Yeah.

1055
01:06:20.639 --> 01:06:24.119
Yeah, and that the way angles
were done, you know, it was

1056
01:06:24.320 --> 01:06:27.000
less frequent. I mean, I
was watching an early eighties A w A

1057
01:06:27.239 --> 01:06:30.840
compilation last night, and you know, mister Sayto was there to honor Hulk

1058
01:06:30.880 --> 01:06:33.519
Hogan for winning the Japanese Championship,
you know, the IBGP title from Antonio

1059
01:06:33.519 --> 01:06:36.239
and ok and and you know Hogan
walked in the ring and bowed for mister

1060
01:06:36.280 --> 01:06:40.639
Sido and the mister Pido through salt
at him. And stomped on him and

1061
01:06:40.679 --> 01:06:43.960
then Hogan's led and all the baby
Faces run out to make the save and

1062
01:06:44.039 --> 01:06:46.199
that was There's four months of business, you know, that was it.

1063
01:06:46.239 --> 01:06:49.000
That was like the one that you
know, AWA would do three four angles

1064
01:06:49.039 --> 01:06:51.000
a year, and that was one
of them, and it carried the promotion

1065
01:06:51.039 --> 01:06:54.599
for a few months. So it's
just, you know, the pacing of

1066
01:06:54.639 --> 01:06:57.800
everything is different, and it was
different in the beginnings in the early years

1067
01:06:57.840 --> 01:07:00.880
of raw. The acceleration David,
from the first raws to the Mona Night

1068
01:07:00.960 --> 01:07:06.559
War is probably faster change than at
any other period. Yeah, totally true.

1069
01:07:06.559 --> 01:07:10.840
I mean it's amazing how much I
mean, you know, and like

1070
01:07:10.880 --> 01:07:13.320
I said when I when I wrote
my book, he goes way way back

1071
01:07:13.320 --> 01:07:16.199
and you know mostly you know all
that history too, but it's it's amazing

1072
01:07:16.239 --> 01:07:20.159
how much of the wrestling industry that
we know today is really only a product

1073
01:07:20.199 --> 01:07:24.000
of the past, you know,
fifteen or twenty years. That's you know,

1074
01:07:24.039 --> 01:07:27.280
you were you were talking David about
the writers who are wrestling fans and

1075
01:07:27.280 --> 01:07:30.599
they come in and write and I
think what has frustrated the most hardcore of

1076
01:07:30.599 --> 01:07:34.400
hardcore fans, you know, not
just the internet fans who are reading cut

1077
01:07:34.519 --> 01:07:38.119
and pay sites or going on some
message board, and they're all kind of

1078
01:07:38.119 --> 01:07:41.199
their their own in their own little
circle of experts. But like the hardcore

1079
01:07:41.199 --> 01:07:45.719
of hardcore fans, I mean,
I'll self, what's the word I'm looking

1080
01:07:45.760 --> 01:07:49.440
for. It's self congratulatory. It's
not self urriatory. There's no from other

1081
01:07:49.519 --> 01:07:53.159
core. But torch readers are an
example of it. Observer readers are example

1082
01:07:53.159 --> 01:07:55.800
of it. People who really study
the history of the business and reading a

1083
01:07:55.800 --> 01:07:59.800
long time, they look at these
writers and go, I know, no

1084
01:08:00.199 --> 01:08:03.440
times more than these guys do because
they think everything like they think there have

1085
01:08:03.480 --> 01:08:06.760
always been hell. Authority figures it's
just the way wrestling works, and it's

1086
01:08:06.800 --> 01:08:10.840
like, no, it's actually a
really bad idea except for Vince mc mann

1087
01:08:10.840 --> 01:08:14.119
and Steeve Austin, and it didn't
happen before Vincent Man and Steeve Boston for

1088
01:08:14.159 --> 01:08:15.960
a very good reason. It completely
screws up the premise of a pro wrestling

1089
01:08:15.960 --> 01:08:19.039
show, which is it's run by
competent people who want to create an even

1090
01:08:19.079 --> 01:08:23.399
playing field, and you want to
give fans hope that the baby face will

1091
01:08:23.439 --> 01:08:26.119
eventually win and they're not always gonna
have the rug pulled out from under them,

1092
01:08:26.199 --> 01:08:30.159
and there's always an authority figure who's
there to correct course when the heels

1093
01:08:30.199 --> 01:08:32.600
find a way to cheat. That's
the way wrestling was always done before vinsic

1094
01:08:32.640 --> 01:08:36.920
Man and Steve Austin. But people
who are writing for WWE think there's always

1095
01:08:36.960 --> 01:08:40.560
been authority figures and it's the way
it has to be, not knowing it's

1096
01:08:40.560 --> 01:08:43.520
actually the exception of the rule,
and it's only worked really once, and

1097
01:08:43.600 --> 01:08:46.920
every other time it's sort of worked
against good business, and so that's kind

1098
01:08:46.960 --> 01:08:50.399
of that's the frustration in what you're
saying is there's a lot of people who

1099
01:08:50.399 --> 01:08:54.960
think all the bad habits of the
late nineties that they got away with because

1100
01:08:54.960 --> 01:08:57.520
Steve Boston was so over, the
nWo is so over, and the production

1101
01:08:57.600 --> 01:09:00.359
values are great. They don't realize
all these bad habits don't work unless you're

1102
01:09:00.399 --> 01:09:03.720
in a hot period that can kind
of mask what bad, bad decisions of

1103
01:09:03.760 --> 01:09:08.159
these are. So are you saying
that Dixie Carter is not your favorite personality

1104
01:09:08.199 --> 01:09:12.119
and professional wrestling right now? I'm
I'm saying that a lot of Vicky Guarrew's.

1105
01:09:12.399 --> 01:09:15.399
I like Vicky Garrew, but you
should be hell manager. You know

1106
01:09:15.479 --> 01:09:17.279
that the heal manager kind of became
the GM. But yes, I am

1107
01:09:17.319 --> 01:09:20.760
saying I will I will be glad
to say DICKX Carter's not my Yeah,

1108
01:09:21.039 --> 01:09:23.960
I mean I think that I I
agree with it. I agree with what

1109
01:09:24.000 --> 01:09:26.960
you said. I think to a
certain extent, the Evince the Vince angle

1110
01:09:27.079 --> 01:09:29.560
just left the genie out of the
bottle and it's kind of hard to put

1111
01:09:29.560 --> 01:09:31.920
it back in. And I don't
know, I agree that it's been overdone,

1112
01:09:32.439 --> 01:09:35.800
uh, pretty dramatically. But you
know, there's an extent to which

1113
01:09:35.880 --> 01:09:39.800
these you know, we're we're we're
smart fans for the most part, and

1114
01:09:39.840 --> 01:09:43.399
we know that there are owners and
we know that they you know, play

1115
01:09:43.399 --> 01:09:45.560
a role in the day to day
operation of wrestling, and so, uh,

1116
01:09:45.720 --> 01:09:48.119
you know, to ignore them,
I think would be folly. But

1117
01:09:48.239 --> 01:09:53.640
the extent to which they've been used, you know, probably especially outside of

1118
01:09:53.640 --> 01:09:58.880
the w w S and WWE is
uh is is it's excess obviously, and

1119
01:09:58.920 --> 01:10:00.279
even now, you know, I
mean i' a lot of people would would

1120
01:10:00.279 --> 01:10:04.439
prefer to see less of the authority, although you know, they've done a

1121
01:10:04.439 --> 01:10:09.039
pretty good job with what they have. Yeah, I think that it's I

1122
01:10:09.119 --> 01:10:11.720
think it is really I don't I
think it's easy to put the genie back

1123
01:10:11.720 --> 01:10:15.960
on the bottle because you just have
a baby face authority figure and you stop

1124
01:10:15.039 --> 01:10:18.520
talking about ownership, or if you
do, you stop having the owners be

1125
01:10:18.600 --> 01:10:24.119
complete assholes. You know, that
was a big problem with with Stephanie's interview

1126
01:10:24.760 --> 01:10:27.720
in Chicago, where she's like,
well, Daniel Brian, we're the only

1127
01:10:27.760 --> 01:10:29.840
reason we're here and there's a ring
set up is because of us. And

1128
01:10:29.880 --> 01:10:31.079
when you buy a T shirt,
you know, he's basically telling the fans,

1129
01:10:31.079 --> 01:10:33.239
when you buy a Daniel Brian T
shirt, you're putting money in Stephanie

1130
01:10:33.279 --> 01:10:36.680
and Hunter's pocket our pockets first,
Like, you don't tell fans that you

1131
01:10:36.960 --> 01:10:42.920
you don't introduce that to the show. It's like, it's like tell it's

1132
01:10:42.960 --> 01:10:45.159
like Fox introducing an NFL broadcast.
Going. By the way, when you

1133
01:10:45.199 --> 01:10:48.800
watch this show, you're funding the
far right cable channel. We hope you

1134
01:10:48.840 --> 01:10:51.880
know that. All you liberals like, why would you say that? It's

1135
01:10:53.079 --> 01:10:56.520
you don't need to say that.
You should just have a board of directors

1136
01:10:56.880 --> 01:11:00.920
that have an authority figure who represents
every authority figure that preaks that pre existed.

1137
01:11:00.079 --> 01:11:04.760
Vincent Man going heel in the mid
nineties and you do what every successful

1138
01:11:04.760 --> 01:11:08.079
rescue quotes she ever did, which
is have a Bill Watts or a Wally

1139
01:11:08.159 --> 01:11:12.439
Carbo or whoever as your Fritch Vne
Eric in world class, whoever it is

1140
01:11:12.479 --> 01:11:15.039
you have. Sometimes they're known to
be owners, sometimes they're not, but

1141
01:11:15.399 --> 01:11:18.079
they're good people who want an even
playing field so that the baby Faces prevail

1142
01:11:18.239 --> 01:11:21.600
and the Heels are constantly fighting the
system. You can do that starting tomorrow

1143
01:11:21.840 --> 01:11:27.680
without any problem. No, And
but what the problem is is if USA

1144
01:11:27.720 --> 01:11:30.560
Network says we want some man's on
TV as heels, that's the challenge because

1145
01:11:30.560 --> 01:11:33.680
that's what you're thinking. That everybody
knows Hunter and Vincent staff own and run

1146
01:11:33.720 --> 01:11:38.199
the company. But if USA Networks
wants them as heels on TV, how

1147
01:11:38.199 --> 01:11:42.720
do you combat that? Well,
I tell USA Network, we're the promoters.

1148
01:11:42.880 --> 01:11:45.720
We know what we're doing. Please
don't force us to do something that's

1149
01:11:45.760 --> 01:11:47.720
really stupid for business, which is
telling all our fans when you buy tickets,

1150
01:11:47.760 --> 01:11:50.039
you're giving it to a bunch of
assholes who don't like you and are

1151
01:11:50.039 --> 01:11:53.359
trying to hold back and screw over
all the baby Faces that you like.

1152
01:11:53.520 --> 01:11:55.760
But when you buy their T shirt, we actually get richer. Like you

1153
01:11:55.760 --> 01:11:59.239
don't do that that's just no sense. You know. When I talked to

1154
01:11:59.239 --> 01:12:02.479
Trivia As whatever at SummerSlam, it
was, uh, what what this didn't

1155
01:12:02.479 --> 01:12:04.800
make the interview, So this is
a scoop. I actually thought this was

1156
01:12:04.840 --> 01:12:09.119
a great question to ask him.
I was like, I said, uh,

1157
01:12:09.159 --> 01:12:11.560
you know, I know that you
watch as a wrestler, You've probably

1158
01:12:11.560 --> 01:12:14.720
watched as much or more tape,
you know than as anybody else, watching

1159
01:12:14.760 --> 01:12:16.960
old wrestlers and how they got over
and all the little tricks of the trade.

1160
01:12:17.119 --> 01:12:19.439
And I was like, now that
you're an authority figure, do you

1161
01:12:19.439 --> 01:12:23.800
go back and watch like Wally Carbo
and Eddie Marlin tape and see how they

1162
01:12:23.840 --> 01:12:26.119
did it? And he was just
like, no, not really. I

1163
01:12:26.159 --> 01:12:29.640
was like, Okay, that's that's
all. Yeah, but yeah, I

1164
01:12:29.640 --> 01:12:31.760
mean it is funny, like I
love those I love the old authority figures.

1165
01:12:32.199 --> 01:12:34.760
Uh, it would be great if
there could be more of a balance.

1166
01:12:34.800 --> 01:12:39.439
And I think that it wouldn't surprise
me if they're if they're if we

1167
01:12:39.479 --> 01:12:41.920
got to that point, you know, in the not too distant future.

1168
01:12:42.199 --> 01:12:45.119
I I you know, I mean, it wouldn't surprise me at all if

1169
01:12:45.159 --> 01:12:47.880
Triple As just sort of you know, faded out for the six months between

1170
01:12:47.920 --> 01:12:54.359
Mania and SummerSlam, just because you
know, just to give some other things

1171
01:12:54.359 --> 01:12:59.199
to try. But I mean,
I've been I've really been enjoying them.

1172
01:12:59.239 --> 01:13:01.560
I think it's I think it's uh, you know, I I agree with

1173
01:13:01.680 --> 01:13:05.520
like the with the like the literal
and like kind of logistical issue with with

1174
01:13:06.399 --> 01:13:12.600
about fans not buying shirts. I've
been overall really impressed at how at how

1175
01:13:12.720 --> 01:13:16.199
you know, how how good they've
been at playing heel and it really you

1176
01:13:16.199 --> 01:13:19.319
know, you know, Triple H
is not obviously has the reputation for not

1177
01:13:19.399 --> 01:13:21.479
showing ass, and he's not done
that a lot. But you know,

1178
01:13:21.479 --> 01:13:25.960
I'm not going to say he's gone
that far. But Monday they did.

1179
01:13:26.119 --> 01:13:28.439
But but he's been willing. Oh
yeah, Monday he did. And and

1180
01:13:28.479 --> 01:13:32.600
he's been willing to he's been willing
to really put himself out there like he's

1181
01:13:32.680 --> 01:13:36.800
he's been. He's gone out on
a limb as far as just you know,

1182
01:13:36.880 --> 01:13:42.560
I mean, just David, you're
the I think Stephanie, I want

1183
01:13:42.560 --> 01:13:44.520
to back up what you said,
Like I thought Stephanie had one of her

1184
01:13:44.520 --> 01:13:46.479
best nights Monday night, Like she's
really really good at playing the character.

1185
01:13:46.479 --> 01:13:49.279
And it would be a shame to
not find a way if she wants to

1186
01:13:49.279 --> 01:13:51.600
be on TV, and you would
say, neverwork wants to make men sensev

1187
01:13:51.800 --> 01:13:55.479
it'd be a shame to not find
a place for her to have a role.

1188
01:13:56.000 --> 01:13:58.000
And then you have the conundrum,
and that's what you're talking about,

1189
01:13:58.000 --> 01:14:00.520
which is, well, fans know
she's you know, a prince owner,

1190
01:14:00.720 --> 01:14:03.119
and that's the challenge. But Mike, I guess my thinking is, if

1191
01:14:03.159 --> 01:14:06.079
Triple Ah was really good at juggling
and he was the best juggler in the

1192
01:14:06.119 --> 01:14:10.720
world, if it made raw worse, I'm sorry, you don't get to

1193
01:14:10.760 --> 01:14:13.800
display that talent on raw because you're
you're cutting ability to make money. So

1194
01:14:13.840 --> 01:14:17.039
because Hunter and Stephanie are good snide
heels and everybody knows they're principal owners,

1195
01:14:17.560 --> 01:14:21.199
it doesn't mean that you screw up
the whole premise of every wrestling company pre

1196
01:14:21.319 --> 01:14:27.800
Vince Vince Austin by having the wrestling
company be evil. And it was even

1197
01:14:27.800 --> 01:14:31.039
more pronounced the money in Chicago when
Stephanie was being nasty in the ring.

1198
01:14:31.479 --> 01:14:35.319
But they had that video for talking, as you know, in this cloying

1199
01:14:35.359 --> 01:14:39.960
fashion and about how, oh,
it's just so wonderful that my kids because

1200
01:14:40.000 --> 01:14:42.720
we don't have a DVD player.
Are my kids can now through the network

1201
01:14:42.760 --> 01:14:45.560
watch my grandpa and their pops wrestle
in their prime, or you know,

1202
01:14:45.640 --> 01:14:50.479
be announcers like why is Stephanie being
sweet in one segment within the show?

1203
01:14:50.600 --> 01:14:54.920
And then not? I don't I
don't want to watch Kevin Spacey be a

1204
01:14:55.079 --> 01:14:59.640
nice person in the middle of a
commercial break on House of Cards. It

1205
01:14:59.680 --> 01:15:03.359
takes out of the moment. I
want to be immersed in the characters as

1206
01:15:03.399 --> 01:15:06.000
they're presented, and I thought that
was really dumb. So I just think

1207
01:15:06.039 --> 01:15:09.439
there's a better way to do it. There's a way to recast it.

1208
01:15:09.560 --> 01:15:13.560
And I don't think you should ever
portray the idea that the tickets that you

1209
01:15:13.640 --> 01:15:16.359
buy are going to a bunch of
people who the only way their heel characters

1210
01:15:16.359 --> 01:15:19.439
work is if people really get mad
at them. It's not all like,

1211
01:15:19.720 --> 01:15:23.319
well, I know it's a show, so I don't take it seriously.

1212
01:15:23.319 --> 01:15:25.399
Well, if you don't take the
hell seriously, you're not going to be

1213
01:15:25.399 --> 01:15:28.920
excited to see them get beat up. The whole point is to immerse them

1214
01:15:29.039 --> 01:15:32.399
in that world and as believable of
a fashion with as little interference, as

1215
01:15:32.439 --> 01:15:36.560
little noise as possible that contradicts the
story you're telling. Therefore, you don't

1216
01:15:36.600 --> 01:15:41.800
want fans to think they're supporting a
wrestling company run by a bunch of jerks

1217
01:15:41.920 --> 01:15:44.359
Like I just think that's a dilemma. You should avoid it all cost,

1218
01:15:44.399 --> 01:15:46.239
no matter how talented a heal you
are. I agree with that. I'll

1219
01:15:46.239 --> 01:15:49.720
give you that one. Okay,
sorry for RENDONH. Larry, you're still

1220
01:15:49.760 --> 01:15:55.680
with us? Anything else? Oh? I did yeah, real quick.

1221
01:15:58.720 --> 01:16:00.159
I guess I'll won't ask about this
to do movie question. I did the

1222
01:16:00.199 --> 01:16:02.760
other day. But you were talking
about Stephanie there. What the heck?

1223
01:16:02.800 --> 01:16:08.840
I'll ask all the four members can
get mad at me in the movie,

1224
01:16:09.079 --> 01:16:12.079
the Scooby Doo movie. I bought
it off Boodoo. Yeah, and they

1225
01:16:12.079 --> 01:16:15.039
have Vincon Triple H in it,
and they have a girl in there that

1226
01:16:15.039 --> 01:16:17.199
you would think would be Stephanie,
but then they introduced her as Richard.

1227
01:16:17.520 --> 01:16:20.239
I was just wondering, if you
heard anything why she might have turned down

1228
01:16:20.279 --> 01:16:24.760
that far. Oh. I don't
know, David, any insight on that.

1229
01:16:24.920 --> 01:16:27.119
I know nothing about it that I
don't have a copy of it,

1230
01:16:27.159 --> 01:16:30.479
and I've been meaning to watch it
and I failed as a wrestling writer.

1231
01:16:30.600 --> 01:16:33.520
I guess that's really intriguing though you
had a chance to review Scooby Doo already

1232
01:16:33.560 --> 01:16:36.600
and you haven't done it. Shame
on you. Yeah. No, I

1233
01:16:36.600 --> 01:16:41.399
mean I thought I thought it was
gonna I mean I had I had a

1234
01:16:41.439 --> 01:16:44.800
column idea all worked out for it, and and this Daniel Bryant stuff sort

1235
01:16:44.800 --> 01:16:47.880
of preempted it. So yeah,
yeah, now that happens, I understand.

1236
01:16:48.119 --> 01:16:50.199
All right, let's go to A
six for next A six four.

1237
01:16:50.239 --> 01:16:55.640
Thanks for joining us, Please stay
you Navid? Where you're from? Hey?

1238
01:16:55.680 --> 01:16:59.359
This is the Nick from Greenville,
South Carolinta hey neck. Thanks for

1239
01:16:59.359 --> 01:17:03.159
calling. What have you got for
David today? Yeah? The two quick

1240
01:17:03.239 --> 01:17:11.920
questions this is, I guess about
the man event of Esselmania. I think

1241
01:17:11.920 --> 01:17:16.319
it's pretty obvious that Daniel's gonna go
over on tiple h. Do you think

1242
01:17:16.960 --> 01:17:21.920
that they're putting I know they played
on this earlier about you know, then

1243
01:17:23.079 --> 01:17:26.079
want they're ready to be happy as
in the show, which is you know,

1244
01:17:26.079 --> 01:17:30.039
what's what should happen? My question
is you think one of the reasons

1245
01:17:30.079 --> 01:17:36.199
that they're putting Brian and that main
event is to possibly cut down on some

1246
01:17:36.359 --> 01:17:42.239
of the fisive workloads and see how
can I put this in a nice way.

1247
01:17:42.439 --> 01:17:45.640
He can't go you know, he
can't really go more than you know,

1248
01:17:45.720 --> 01:17:48.239
five and six cements without having to
take a break. That's a good

1249
01:17:48.239 --> 01:17:53.359
point, David. Do you think
do you think just the fear that Fatista

1250
01:17:53.479 --> 01:17:56.960
just at his age and condition wouldn't
be able to have wrestle any worthy match

1251
01:17:57.000 --> 01:18:00.039
played into a little bit or a
lot, the idea to make it a

1252
01:18:00.079 --> 01:18:02.920
three way to take some pressure of
Batiste. That's an interesting Yeah. Well,

1253
01:18:03.000 --> 01:18:06.760
I mean I defended Batista at the
beginning, not for anything else but

1254
01:18:06.760 --> 01:18:11.640
for the but for the the ring
endurance, because you know, I mean

1255
01:18:11.680 --> 01:18:14.520
people are talking like he's just like
dramatically out of shape, and you know,

1256
01:18:14.520 --> 01:18:16.159
who knows, maybe he is.
But you know, in every professional

1257
01:18:16.159 --> 01:18:19.680
sport you hear this that you can
be in really good shape. But but

1258
01:18:19.800 --> 01:18:21.880
it's a whole different thing to be
in game shape, you know, I

1259
01:18:21.880 --> 01:18:25.600
mean, just to have that kind
of to have your your endurance kind of

1260
01:18:25.640 --> 01:18:29.640
queued up to working in front of
a live crowd with those really specific inner

1261
01:18:29.760 --> 01:18:33.000
you know, use of energy.
But at this point, I think WWE

1262
01:18:33.199 --> 01:18:36.079
has to be worried about that.
I mean, unless unless they're seeing house

1263
01:18:36.079 --> 01:18:41.640
shows where he's you know, doing
thirty minute matches, then that has to

1264
01:18:41.680 --> 01:18:46.319
be a concern because you can't have
your main event. You can't. You

1265
01:18:46.359 --> 01:18:50.119
just can't have that much of a
variable in in the mid event at WrestleMania.

1266
01:18:50.640 --> 01:18:55.600
Yeah, And I will say I
think had Batista come back in a

1267
01:18:55.600 --> 01:18:59.760
singles match that went fifteen minutes and
people were dogging him, I would be

1268
01:19:00.000 --> 01:19:03.560
and Batista's side. I think the
problem was he was in the rumble and

1269
01:19:03.800 --> 01:19:06.239
blew up, you know, within
thirty seconds. Like and I'm not saying

1270
01:19:06.239 --> 01:19:08.880
he didn't have to do a lot
on the roll, but I think people

1271
01:19:08.880 --> 01:19:11.439
look at that as like it didn't
take him five minutes or ten minutes to

1272
01:19:11.439 --> 01:19:13.680
blow up in a one on one
match where he got thrown in there.

1273
01:19:13.800 --> 01:19:15.840
It was in the rumble where you're
kind of protected, and I think I

1274
01:19:15.840 --> 01:19:19.159
think that's where I'm normally I'm with
you, Dave. I'm like, let's

1275
01:19:19.199 --> 01:19:21.399
not you know, let's respect that
this is tough to do. You know,

1276
01:19:21.520 --> 01:19:25.359
like you're totally ryan. It's very
hard to get ring shape or basketball

1277
01:19:25.359 --> 01:19:28.560
court shape by being on a treadmill. I think it's it's the unique setting

1278
01:19:28.560 --> 01:19:30.760
of the rumble. And then I
think people were a lot harder on him

1279
01:19:30.920 --> 01:19:32.399
because they wanted Daniel Bryan to win. I mean, I think that was

1280
01:19:32.640 --> 01:19:36.199
it was kind of this, this
this cocktail of everything that just came together

1281
01:19:36.239 --> 01:19:40.720
and boiled over, and part of
it was Batista being winded, and part

1282
01:19:40.720 --> 01:19:43.720
of it was Batista's probably the guy
who drove Punk into quitting. I think

1283
01:19:43.760 --> 01:19:45.600
some people think that, and he's
the guy who's taken away the main event

1284
01:19:45.640 --> 01:19:57.680
from Daniel Brian too. Yeah,
I agree with Ed. Yeah, you

1285
01:19:57.680 --> 01:20:00.520
don't have to wait for the weight
Killer for wrestling post show to find out

1286
01:20:00.560 --> 01:20:02.319
what I thought of Monday Night Raw
and SmackDown. Each week, you can

1287
01:20:02.399 --> 01:20:08.960
check out my reports that are updated
live throughout Raw and SmackDown at pwtorch dot

1288
01:20:09.000 --> 01:20:12.520
com. My written report will tell
you what's happening in detail in case you

1289
01:20:12.520 --> 01:20:15.560
missed the show, and it will
also analyze key segments and give my random

1290
01:20:15.560 --> 01:20:19.680
thoughts quips on what I am watching
as it airs. So check it out

1291
01:20:19.680 --> 01:20:25.960
every Monday night and Tuesday night at
pwtorch dot com. That also applies to

1292
01:20:26.119 --> 01:20:30.159
WWE payperviews. I cover those live
at pw torch dot com with a detailed

1293
01:20:30.159 --> 01:20:32.760
written report with star ratings, and
of course you can find other TV reports

1294
01:20:32.760 --> 01:20:38.439
from other contributors to PW Torch such
as nxt roh, Impact Wrestling, and

1295
01:20:38.520 --> 01:20:42.880
more. Check it out pwtorch dot
com, your first stop for TV and

1296
01:20:43.000 --> 01:20:59.479
pay per view written reports. Nick
without anything, just a quick question.

1297
01:21:00.399 --> 01:21:05.640
This is just an opinion. I'm
wondering why have they not been doing anything

1298
01:21:05.680 --> 01:21:09.960
with dulphinlaz This is just depenion of
my I think he's a really, really

1299
01:21:09.960 --> 01:21:14.399
great worker. You know, Yeah, he had some incredible matches. Just

1300
01:21:14.399 --> 01:21:17.039
seems like, you know, he's
been on the back, burning off quite

1301
01:21:17.079 --> 01:21:20.600
a while. You know, when
he when he does have his matches on

1302
01:21:20.760 --> 01:21:26.520
RALEIGHATNA far in between lately, he
still put on a great show. It

1303
01:21:26.600 --> 01:21:29.039
just seems like they didn't have nothing
to do with him. I don't know

1304
01:21:29.039 --> 01:21:30.920
if he's got yeah, no,
no good what good topic? David.

1305
01:21:30.960 --> 01:21:34.199
A year ago, Dulphigler was a
hot product, right alongside Daniel Bryant.

1306
01:21:34.680 --> 01:21:40.720
And it's kind of like watching like
two hot rookies and one goes into a

1307
01:21:40.720 --> 01:21:43.680
sophomore slump in the like say in
the NBA or whatever, you know,

1308
01:21:43.760 --> 01:21:46.279
pick your sport, and then one
it just ends up with either a bad

1309
01:21:46.319 --> 01:21:48.680
second half of a rookie season or
a bad sophomore season, and the other

1310
01:21:48.720 --> 01:21:51.279
one just takes off and is is
you know, practically ready for the All

1311
01:21:51.319 --> 01:21:56.279
Star Game. Dull Figgers had an
awful year? What what what's your what's

1312
01:21:56.279 --> 01:21:59.079
your interpretation of that? Because a
year ago, I don't think there was

1313
01:21:59.119 --> 01:22:02.840
that big of a difference Brian and
Doll's popularity among the insurgent fans who are

1314
01:22:02.960 --> 01:22:05.600
voicing, you know, who they
want to see get pushed. Yeah,

1315
01:22:05.760 --> 01:22:10.279
I mean I think so. One
of the things and obviously I don't know

1316
01:22:10.319 --> 01:22:13.239
any of this for for a fact. I mean one of the big things

1317
01:22:13.319 --> 01:22:18.720
is the end of the brand split
and more and and in in a broader

1318
01:22:18.760 --> 01:22:23.800
sense, ww's you know, creative's
kind of inability to to you know,

1319
01:22:23.920 --> 01:22:27.640
juggle more than one or two balls
in the air at a time. You

1320
01:22:27.680 --> 01:22:30.680
know, they see this despite the
fact that they're programming uh be you know,

1321
01:22:30.800 --> 01:22:33.359
becomes bigger and bigger. There,
there's more and more of it there

1322
01:22:33.439 --> 01:22:38.239
that they seem to be focusing more
and more exclusively on the one or two

1323
01:22:38.319 --> 01:22:43.159
things that are really working right then, But and you can't discount the concussion

1324
01:22:43.239 --> 01:22:45.960
situation. You know. I mean
you can't. Uh, no one really

1325
01:22:45.960 --> 01:22:48.800
talks about Brian in this way.
But but I but I can. I

1326
01:22:48.800 --> 01:22:51.600
think you can make the case that
one of the biggest contributors of his success

1327
01:22:51.680 --> 01:22:55.199
is the fact that he's been healthy
the whole time. I mean, there's

1328
01:22:55.960 --> 01:22:58.560
and you know, I heard from
the WWE guy. This is two or

1329
01:22:58.560 --> 01:23:01.159
three years ago now, before Brian
started getting the big push. Someone told

1330
01:23:01.159 --> 01:23:04.359
me that Vince loved him because he
was always there and always willing to do

1331
01:23:04.399 --> 01:23:08.560
anything. You know, he was
always game for whatever angle they wanted to

1332
01:23:08.560 --> 01:23:12.359
put him in. And part of
that is just health and presence, you

1333
01:23:12.399 --> 01:23:15.960
know. And he's always been around
and always been you know, there are

1334
01:23:15.960 --> 01:23:18.479
probably a lot of guys who would
have scoffed at being in team hell know

1335
01:23:18.640 --> 01:23:23.039
and doing those sketches with a you
know, with the counselor. And he

1336
01:23:23.119 --> 01:23:25.800
was game and he and like I
said, for the past for since,

1337
01:23:26.760 --> 01:23:30.800
you know, with a couple of
really tiny exceptions, he's been totally healthy

1338
01:23:30.840 --> 01:23:34.479
for the past eighteen months, you
know. So it's it's a that's that's

1339
01:23:34.520 --> 01:23:38.600
a huge difference, I think too. Uh to add a little bit to

1340
01:23:38.640 --> 01:23:45.079
it too. I just think that
DLP Ziegler is has frustrated management. I

1341
01:23:45.079 --> 01:23:50.199
think they've told him, don't do
so much in the ring, pick your

1342
01:23:50.239 --> 01:23:55.800
spots and don't overdo it, and
he goes out and he hasn't listened,

1343
01:23:55.800 --> 01:23:58.520
and he's felt like he has to
go one hundred miles an hour the whole

1344
01:23:58.560 --> 01:24:02.680
time and outshine everybody. And I
think that there's a sense among people who

1345
01:24:02.840 --> 01:24:06.439
decide who gets pushed a new dozen
that Dult's not a good listener in that

1346
01:24:06.520 --> 01:24:13.560
regard, and that his wrestling IQ
is too kind of indie rific, you

1347
01:24:13.600 --> 01:24:15.119
know, which is trying to get
those hardcore fans to love me because I'm

1348
01:24:15.119 --> 01:24:18.640
willing to take the craziest bumps and
work one hundred miles an hour. And

1349
01:24:19.199 --> 01:24:25.039
I'm I was saying it's the right
or wrong reaction to that, But I

1350
01:24:25.079 --> 01:24:27.880
think some of that is at play, which is, if he's not going

1351
01:24:27.920 --> 01:24:30.439
to listen to us, we're gonna
go. We're you know, all things

1352
01:24:30.479 --> 01:24:31.520
are equal, We're just gonna go
with somebody who listens to us a little

1353
01:24:31.520 --> 01:24:33.119
bit more. It seems like they're
gonna be there to handle that. They

1354
01:24:33.119 --> 01:24:35.800
really do get over. And I
think part of it with Chel Figler two

1355
01:24:35.840 --> 01:24:39.520
is they should not have turned a
baby face unless they're willing to go all

1356
01:24:39.520 --> 01:24:42.399
in with them as a babyface.
And then the concussion happened, and then

1357
01:24:42.399 --> 01:24:45.239
he lost all his momentum and he
just he's a better heel like I just

1358
01:24:45.239 --> 01:24:47.520
think they should have kept him here
for a couple of years despite the fan

1359
01:24:47.600 --> 01:24:53.159
reaction and found a way that turned
the fans into enjoying booing him as opposed

1360
01:24:53.159 --> 01:24:57.239
to rebelliously cheering him, and picked
the right spot when they were ready to

1361
01:24:57.279 --> 01:25:00.000
turn him, when they could really
really get behind him. And I felt,

1362
01:25:00.000 --> 01:25:01.359
well, in that case, it's
kind of an example of the fans

1363
01:25:01.359 --> 01:25:06.119
maybe forcing that I just say force, but influencing managements maybe make a move

1364
01:25:06.159 --> 01:25:11.319
pre prematurely before management felt Dolph was
right for that kind of top baby face

1365
01:25:11.399 --> 01:25:14.640
push. I really I totally agree
with both of those points, and I

1366
01:25:14.680 --> 01:25:16.720
think, relating more to the first
one, I think that there there is

1367
01:25:16.760 --> 01:25:21.960
a certain way that you can kind
of that Dolphins has hurt his career by

1368
01:25:23.000 --> 01:25:25.800
being too good at selling. I
mean, if that's if that's going to

1369
01:25:25.880 --> 01:25:29.680
be it's I mean, if that's
it's he's he's going to have a great

1370
01:25:29.760 --> 01:25:31.600
career one way or the other maybe
not I mean, not not necessarily a

1371
01:25:31.600 --> 01:25:34.720
Hall of Fame career, but you
know he's in big matches with big names

1372
01:25:34.720 --> 01:25:39.560
all the time because he can make
them all look really good. And you

1373
01:25:39.600 --> 01:25:43.119
know it's not I mean, you
can't even compare him to you know,

1374
01:25:43.159 --> 01:25:45.680
somebody like Hogan or whatever. But
if your best skill is making other guys

1375
01:25:45.720 --> 01:25:48.159
look good, then they're going to
find spots for you to do that and

1376
01:25:48.159 --> 01:25:51.640
not necessarily put you up on top. So and it's my job over the

1377
01:25:51.720 --> 01:25:54.960
years to find or it's been part
of my job description over the years to

1378
01:25:55.000 --> 01:25:58.079
figure find this stuff out whenever I
can, and sometimes I done. Sometimes

1379
01:25:58.119 --> 01:26:01.039
I don't know or I'm not able
to pinpoint it. But sometimes there are

1380
01:26:01.079 --> 01:26:03.680
other factors that have nothing to do
with what we see on TV and nothing

1381
01:26:03.720 --> 01:26:06.880
to do with crowd reactions. And
I'm saying this disclaimer loud and clear.

1382
01:26:08.159 --> 01:26:11.399
I'm not saying that what I'm about
to say applies to Dolf. But there

1383
01:26:11.399 --> 01:26:15.479
have been cases where guys are really
over and popular, but they're known off

1384
01:26:15.680 --> 01:26:24.000
off air for being disrespectful to women
at bars or to a point that even

1385
01:26:24.039 --> 01:26:29.039
embarrasses and scarce like management, like
wow, you know this we can't get

1386
01:26:29.039 --> 01:26:31.159
beyond this guy. He's a scant
of waiting to happen, or or they're

1387
01:26:31.439 --> 01:26:35.239
heavy drinkers and they just get they
drink way too hard to an unprofessional level

1388
01:26:35.239 --> 01:26:39.520
and say and do stupid things.
So and you can come up with your

1389
01:26:39.520 --> 01:26:42.920
own set of examples of things that
they run their mouths up on Twitter too

1390
01:26:43.000 --> 01:26:45.640
much or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And it could be it

1391
01:26:45.800 --> 01:26:50.000
could be very private where let's say
that they complain about their push in a

1392
01:26:50.039 --> 01:26:56.279
way that really lets loose about management
and say things that no way would this

1393
01:26:56.359 --> 01:26:59.039
wrestler want want it to be known
that they're saying, but they're saying it

1394
01:26:59.079 --> 01:27:02.039
to the mole who then to get
reports at management. So there's reasons guys

1395
01:27:02.039 --> 01:27:04.880
don't get pushed. And I'm not
saying there are always good reasons, and

1396
01:27:04.920 --> 01:27:09.359
I'm not saying we should just say
WWE knows what they're doing. Let's sit

1397
01:27:09.439 --> 01:27:12.680
back and enjoy the ride, because
if you study WWE's history, there's many

1398
01:27:12.680 --> 01:27:15.560
many times that they make mistakes.
Many times they've had to correct course.

1399
01:27:15.760 --> 01:27:18.039
Many times they've been drag kicking and
screaming into doing the right thing. And

1400
01:27:18.880 --> 01:27:23.680
that's just anybody running any company.
Is going to have a level of competence,

1401
01:27:23.680 --> 01:27:27.560
but also times that they're right,
times that they're wrong, And there

1402
01:27:27.560 --> 01:27:29.960
are times when they I think they
should have pushed wrestlers. They didn't and

1403
01:27:30.000 --> 01:27:31.880
there was no good reason. But
there are times where I look back and

1404
01:27:31.920 --> 01:27:35.159
I go, yeah, everybody wanted
this guy to get pushed, But I

1405
01:27:35.279 --> 01:27:39.520
learned a couple of years later.
We learned a couple of years later they

1406
01:27:39.640 --> 01:27:43.960
couldn't rely on this guy to handle
the pressure and represent the company if they

1407
01:27:44.000 --> 01:27:45.640
gave them the type of push that
fans wanted. So again, I'm not

1408
01:27:45.640 --> 01:27:49.600
saying this case with doulf because I
think our reasons that are public David and

1409
01:27:49.800 --> 01:27:54.960
known and guessable are are enough.
But yeah, I mean that's what happened

1410
01:27:54.960 --> 01:27:58.039
with Eddie's first push, right,
I mean, they didn't they take the

1411
01:27:58.079 --> 01:28:00.000
tidele away from him because he wasn't
ready for it. Well, there was

1412
01:28:00.399 --> 01:28:03.760
pres there was a feeling that Eddie
would take being world champion really, really

1413
01:28:03.800 --> 01:28:06.760
really seriously and it would put undue
pressure on him, and that pressure would

1414
01:28:06.800 --> 01:28:11.279
lead to more drug abuse and he
would just you know, not he wouldn't

1415
01:28:11.279 --> 01:28:14.520
be honest. A lot of guys
get in that position where I should say

1416
01:28:14.560 --> 01:28:17.159
a lot, but it's happened.
Second, guys get a big push,

1417
01:28:17.239 --> 01:28:20.600
or if they get a world title, they will think it's their only chance

1418
01:28:20.680 --> 01:28:24.279
and they have to push through no
matter what. And if they if they

1419
01:28:24.319 --> 01:28:27.720
give up, or if they show
any weakness, that's their last chance.

1420
01:28:27.720 --> 01:28:30.359
So they have to push through while
they can still make money. And yeah,

1421
01:28:30.359 --> 01:28:31.720
there's times where you get signals of
a guy who just can't handle that

1422
01:28:31.760 --> 01:28:34.800
pressure at that moment in time,
and it's actually kind of cruel to then

1423
01:28:34.840 --> 01:28:39.640
give him his dream at the worst
possible time physically or mentally for him.

1424
01:28:40.119 --> 01:28:43.439
Yeah, yeah, all, let's
try squeeze in one more call, maybe

1425
01:28:43.439 --> 01:28:45.880
two in the last minute or two
here on the live test second three four

1426
01:28:45.920 --> 01:28:47.720
seven. You are up next,
Please station, you name and where you're

1427
01:28:47.760 --> 01:28:53.319
from. Hello, this is Christian, New York. Hey, Chris,

1428
01:28:53.319 --> 01:28:57.840
but you've got for David to me
today. Oh, I have two questions.

1429
01:28:58.000 --> 01:29:00.880
The first one is about Randy Savage. Don't you think it's the critical

1430
01:29:00.920 --> 01:29:05.800
that VUH sells DVDs on him,
puts him on the network, makes money

1431
01:29:05.800 --> 01:29:09.640
on him, and yet they won't
at least put him in the Hall of

1432
01:29:09.680 --> 01:29:15.520
Fame. And the second question is
about Sting. If Sting does not show

1433
01:29:15.600 --> 01:29:19.039
up in d V because they won't
give him not Undertaker, do you think

1434
01:29:19.119 --> 01:29:23.640
he's being shout missed in that regard. Oh, he has the right not

1435
01:29:23.760 --> 01:29:27.920
to sign unless they give him the
match he wants. Chris, what's your

1436
01:29:27.920 --> 01:29:33.000
source for Sting won't sign because he
wants Undertaker? From from reading it on

1437
01:29:33.119 --> 01:29:40.199
p W second that that was his
he says he was hoping to wrestle Undertaker

1438
01:29:40.199 --> 01:29:44.079
at Wrestle many have thirty and and
you're saying that we reported that that's the

1439
01:29:44.119 --> 01:29:48.039
only reason he didn't sign with him. I just want to clarification that because

1440
01:29:48.079 --> 01:29:53.279
I think that's jumping the gun over
you said. Okay, okay, Chris.

1441
01:29:53.319 --> 01:29:56.000
Thanks. Yeah. I was just
sure, Chris, I'm so short

1442
01:29:56.039 --> 01:29:58.119
on time. I don't want to
I'm sorry to cut you off. I

1443
01:29:58.159 --> 01:30:00.600
just wanted to make sure there wasn't
some report out there that was stronger than

1444
01:30:00.640 --> 01:30:01.560
what we said. I mean,
Sting talked about that, But I don't

1445
01:30:01.560 --> 01:30:04.720
think that he would just refuse to
sign with WW because of that. But

1446
01:30:04.800 --> 01:30:08.720
David, yeah, your thoughts on
Randy Savage instent, Well, I mean,

1447
01:30:08.760 --> 01:30:10.520
I you know, I don't think
this is novel. But the Randy

1448
01:30:10.520 --> 01:30:14.000
Savage thing, as far as I
can tell, is just entirely just about,

1449
01:30:14.119 --> 01:30:18.560
you know, the film catalog that
the Pafo family has and just negotiating

1450
01:30:18.600 --> 01:30:24.000
for kind of lifetime legends rights to
to Randy's memory and the whole family.

1451
01:30:24.039 --> 01:30:26.159
I mean, he's going to go
in. You know, if all the

1452
01:30:26.199 --> 01:30:29.239
guys that, if all the guys
that deserve to be first ballot Hall of

1453
01:30:29.279 --> 01:30:31.439
Famers win in the first year,
then there'd be nobody left induct anymore,

1454
01:30:31.520 --> 01:30:34.560
you know, And I think that
be it. Next year, the year

1455
01:30:34.600 --> 01:30:39.479
after, you know, we're going
to see a big Randy Savage induction ceremony

1456
01:30:39.520 --> 01:30:44.079
and everybody will be able to breathe
a sigh of relief. But I mean,

1457
01:30:44.239 --> 01:30:45.880
do you do you know anything different
than that. I mean, that's

1458
01:30:45.920 --> 01:30:49.199
that's been my impression the whole time. I Mean, the reason Randy going

1459
01:30:49.319 --> 01:30:54.680
back years and years and years wasn't
in as vincick Man at a meeting when

1460
01:30:54.720 --> 01:30:58.000
the Hall of Fame first got brought
up or first started, somebody brought up

1461
01:30:58.039 --> 01:31:00.359
Randy Savage and they were told to
bring up Rdy Savage his name in Vincent

1462
01:31:00.439 --> 01:31:03.399
Van's presence because of an incident that
happened beyond the scenes many many years ago,

1463
01:31:03.680 --> 01:31:06.199
and Randy was dead to him before, while he was still alive,

1464
01:31:06.199 --> 01:31:10.840
by the way and not trying to
be cute. And that cloud has hung

1465
01:31:10.840 --> 01:31:14.560
over Randy Savage for a very long
time. And I do think that he

1466
01:31:14.600 --> 01:31:16.000
would be in the Hall of Fame
already if it weren't for something that was

1467
01:31:16.119 --> 01:31:20.279
very deeply personal to Vince that happened
with Randy, that that caused him to

1468
01:31:20.680 --> 01:31:25.960
want to not honor him in any
way. And he was pretty much the

1469
01:31:26.079 --> 01:31:30.079
sole guy on that list of people
who were Hall of Fame worthy who Vince

1470
01:31:30.119 --> 01:31:31.359
didn't want anything to do with being
in the Hall of Fame. I don't

1471
01:31:31.359 --> 01:31:35.640
know if time has healed that wound
or Randy dying helped soften that, but

1472
01:31:35.760 --> 01:31:41.319
I think that's still at play too, David, just you know. But

1473
01:31:41.479 --> 01:31:43.920
so Chris is right in that respect
of we don't want honor in the Hall

1474
01:31:43.920 --> 01:31:45.439
of Fame, but we want to
make a lot of money off of him.

1475
01:31:45.479 --> 01:31:48.319
I mean, I guess by definition
it probably fits hypocrisy, but it

1476
01:31:48.359 --> 01:31:53.119
also shows the softening of the stance
because they're willing to promote him and and

1477
01:31:53.319 --> 01:31:56.760
champion his accomplishments. Yeah, you
know, so, so I think it's

1478
01:31:56.760 --> 01:31:59.600
a softening of that stance, and
I think it's it's I think you're right.

1479
01:31:59.600 --> 01:32:00.840
I think it's a matter of time. But you know, Landy Poplo

1480
01:32:00.880 --> 01:32:05.479
said on this very show that Randy
Savage had said that before he died that

1481
01:32:05.640 --> 01:32:09.439
he didn't want he would he refused
to go in the Hall of Fame unless

1482
01:32:09.439 --> 01:32:12.920
they inducted his brother Landy and his
dad at the same time. And Lanny

1483
01:32:13.000 --> 01:32:15.600
said, you know, if Lanny
holds holds to that, that could be

1484
01:32:15.760 --> 01:32:18.720
a hiccup in things too, because
wwe might say, you know, that's

1485
01:32:18.840 --> 01:32:21.279
nice, but you know, we
just we just want to on a Randy.

1486
01:32:21.319 --> 01:32:24.399
He's the guy who deserves to be
in it. So I think there's

1487
01:32:24.439 --> 01:32:33.199
it's a complicated situation, just you
know, addressing Chris's question. Longing for

1488
01:32:33.279 --> 01:32:39.119
some nostalgia or maybe you want to
learn some wrestling history, don't miss the

1489
01:32:39.199 --> 01:32:44.039
nineties pass cast Every Friday on the
PW Torch Daly Cast feed. Alex and

1490
01:32:44.079 --> 01:32:47.520
Patrick will transport you thirty years into
the past by taking you through the Torch

1491
01:32:47.760 --> 01:32:53.720
issue from that very weak. Follow
news from the WWF and WCW and all

1492
01:32:53.760 --> 01:32:58.039
the happenings from across the wrestling industry
in real time, as The Torch reported

1493
01:32:58.079 --> 01:33:01.640
it thirty years ago. That's the
nineties past cast every Friday for the PW

1494
01:33:01.680 --> 01:33:16.840
Torch Daily Cast feed. How about
Sting, David Well, I was under

1495
01:33:16.840 --> 01:33:21.279
the impression that thing's been and this
is you know, I don't know who's

1496
01:33:21.319 --> 01:33:24.880
who's talked about this much at all, but I'm I'm my impression is that

1497
01:33:24.960 --> 01:33:29.520
Sting's sort of been available to WWE
for for you know, at several times

1498
01:33:29.560 --> 01:33:32.560
over the past three four five years, and WWE has just been a little

1499
01:33:32.600 --> 01:33:35.760
bit I don't know if luke warm
is the right word, but but not

1500
01:33:35.880 --> 01:33:40.800
quite as enthusiastic as as Sting was
or as Sting would have liked him to

1501
01:33:40.840 --> 01:33:44.800
be. And I'm sure that they
did. You know that they have discussions

1502
01:33:44.840 --> 01:33:47.000
about did Sting Undertaker at WrestleMania,
But at the end of the day,

1503
01:33:47.000 --> 01:33:51.000
I think that they'd prefer to have
to not give that spot to someone who's

1504
01:33:51.000 --> 01:33:56.239
not a WWE guy. I think
it hurts too that Undertaker. I don't

1505
01:33:56.239 --> 01:33:58.880
think with trust being in the ring
with the guy in his mid fifties who

1506
01:33:58.880 --> 01:34:01.399
doesn't wrestle full time because I'm taker. I don't want to ruin his gimmick.

1507
01:34:01.439 --> 01:34:04.640
But Mark Callaway is scared to death
again hurt in the ring, you

1508
01:34:04.680 --> 01:34:08.079
know, I mean his matches that
could be planned out, move or move,

1509
01:34:08.479 --> 01:34:13.159
and Steve Borden Sting is notoriously well
known for forgetting spots two minutes into

1510
01:34:13.199 --> 01:34:15.239
a match. He has the equivalent
of me when I would sit down to

1511
01:34:15.239 --> 01:34:18.720
take my economics test in college,
and everything that I knew the night before

1512
01:34:18.720 --> 01:34:21.680
when I studied went blank as because
a test got set in front of me,

1513
01:34:23.039 --> 01:34:27.000
And so I sympathize with it.
But Sting is forgetful on promos,

1514
01:34:27.000 --> 01:34:30.319
and he's forgetful in the ring,
and he's old, and he doesn't wrestle

1515
01:34:30.319 --> 01:34:34.479
full time. And Mark Callaway may
not want all other factors erased, might

1516
01:34:34.520 --> 01:34:38.600
not want to put his health in
the hands of Sting or get in ring

1517
01:34:38.680 --> 01:34:42.560
shape as best Mark Callaway can and
have the match fall apart and be bad.

1518
01:34:42.880 --> 01:34:45.640
So I think that's part of it
too, is just a health concern.

1519
01:34:45.800 --> 01:34:48.920
I just think Sting at this point
is in no position to make demands,

1520
01:34:48.960 --> 01:34:51.239
and I don't think he will.
I think the thinking now is he'll

1521
01:34:51.239 --> 01:34:56.960
come in after WrestleMania because they felt
they had enough for WrestleMania, and he

1522
01:34:57.000 --> 01:35:00.000
didn't resign with T and A because
he'll come in as something special to introduce,

1523
01:35:00.359 --> 01:35:03.439
to be part of WDW network and
and be part of something that will

1524
01:35:03.439 --> 01:35:05.760
probably lead to him being in the
Hall of Fame next year. Right that

1525
01:35:05.760 --> 01:35:09.640
that that's my best guess right now? Yeah, that sounds about right.

1526
01:35:09.680 --> 01:35:12.600
I mean, and listen, I
there's a there's a big part of me

1527
01:35:12.680 --> 01:35:15.039
that would mark out for an Undertaker
Sting match. But you know when it

1528
01:35:15.079 --> 01:35:18.119
when it plays, when that match
happens in my head, it happens twenty

1529
01:35:18.159 --> 01:35:20.600
years ago, you know, like
it's not or at least that Yeah,

1530
01:35:20.840 --> 01:35:24.920
yeah, I mean it's not like
the idea. I mean, one of

1531
01:35:24.960 --> 01:35:28.239
the hardest things about wrestling is seeing
you're seeing the gods you grew up with

1532
01:35:29.039 --> 01:35:30.720
age right, been in front of
your eyes and and and you know,

1533
01:35:31.119 --> 01:35:34.560
some there there are some matchups like
that, and in particular that that might

1534
01:35:34.600 --> 01:35:38.279
be a little bit hard to watch
just for you know, the way that

1535
01:35:38.359 --> 01:35:42.159
it was just a procession of mortality. You know, there're in front of

1536
01:35:42.159 --> 01:35:45.600
you. Yeah, yeah, I
would love to see it on some level,

1537
01:35:45.600 --> 01:35:46.840
but I think I can I think
I can. That's one that I

1538
01:35:46.840 --> 01:35:49.000
can do with that at the end
of the day. Yeah. Yeah,

1539
01:35:49.039 --> 01:35:53.119
And I think even three years ago
it might have worked. I think if

1540
01:35:53.159 --> 01:35:56.520
people who have been watching TNA have
seen Stings work, I'd say declined the

1541
01:35:56.560 --> 01:36:00.479
last three years noticeably. And you
know, even five year years ago he

1542
01:36:00.560 --> 01:36:01.439
kind of looked like the old Sting. I mean it was, you know,

1543
01:36:01.479 --> 01:36:04.359
stand up rawls with Jeff Jarrett or
whatever. But you know, it's

1544
01:36:04.399 --> 01:36:08.159
just it really was the last few
years where you started looking and thinking this

1545
01:36:08.279 --> 01:36:11.439
might not be a good idea.
I don't think you have to go back

1546
01:36:11.479 --> 01:36:14.680
twenty years. I think you go
back at at least three, but maybe

1547
01:36:14.680 --> 01:36:16.840
four or five, and it's and
it's doable. And but you know,

1548
01:36:16.920 --> 01:36:20.640
Undertaker has had too many good matches
lined up that made too much sense otherwise,

1549
01:36:20.680 --> 01:36:25.279
So yeah, I'm not I mean, if Sting wants to face Undertaker,

1550
01:36:25.319 --> 01:36:28.520
that's fine. If Sting requires that
he faces the Undertaker to sign with

1551
01:36:28.600 --> 01:36:32.079
WWE, that just seems kind of
stupid and not really something I would believe.

1552
01:36:32.479 --> 01:36:34.880
I think I think I don't think
Sting would go that far. I

1553
01:36:34.920 --> 01:36:38.720
agree. Yeah, cool, David, you have a feoture minutes. For

1554
01:36:38.720 --> 01:36:40.720
a PF, you have to show
cover a couple of email questions and other

1555
01:36:40.760 --> 01:36:43.640
topics. Sure, okay, cool, excellent. I want to thank all

1556
01:36:43.640 --> 01:36:47.319
the live cast listeners for joining us
vi IP. David Chumaker has been my

1557
01:36:47.399 --> 01:36:51.840
guest. Check out his writing on
pro wrestling on a regular basis at grant

1558
01:36:51.920 --> 01:36:59.079
land dot com and also his book
The Squared Circle. What was the full

1559
01:36:59.079 --> 01:37:00.000
title again? I want to get
the full title of Life, The Squared

1560
01:37:00.039 --> 01:37:02.880
Circle, Life, Death and Professional
Wrestling. I should have said it because

1561
01:37:02.880 --> 01:37:04.520
that's what I was going to guess
that. I just was scared to get

1562
01:37:04.520 --> 01:37:09.920
it wrong. I appreciated that.
Thank you David for your time. Check

1563
01:37:09.960 --> 01:37:14.640
it out in bookstores and on Amazon
of course, or your nook, and

1564
01:37:14.680 --> 01:37:20.960
you can also get a free copy
at audible trial dot com slash pro Wrestling

1565
01:37:20.960 --> 01:37:24.800
torch and David still gets cut of
it, so don't feel bad taking it

1566
01:37:24.840 --> 01:37:28.800
free. All right, until next
time? And Mick carsh by the way,

1567
01:37:28.840 --> 01:37:30.960
scheduled to be a guest next week. He had to cancel the last

1568
01:37:30.960 --> 01:37:34.800
two weeks on US due to some
scheduling issues, but he has scheduled to

1569
01:37:34.800 --> 01:37:38.399
be on next week. We're going
to talk about the late great Billy Robinson.

1570
01:37:38.479 --> 01:37:43.920
Mccarsh eye witnessed his career and Mick
also follows current WWE closely, and

1571
01:37:44.000 --> 01:37:47.079
we'll talk about the conviction of Buck
zoom Off in a very creepy story speaking

1572
01:37:47.159 --> 01:37:51.800
of a WA in the eighties and
and much more, long time wrestling announcer

1573
01:37:51.920 --> 01:37:55.880
going back to the seventies, the
head of the Nick Bockwinkle fan club,

1574
01:37:56.479 --> 01:38:00.199
announcer for the a w A on
ESPN and the eighties. Mickcarsh my guest

1575
01:38:00.239 --> 01:38:02.600
week a repeat guest, and he
is actually a Next Torch columnist dating back

1576
01:38:02.640 --> 01:38:06.319
to the late nineteen eighties. So
join us next Friday for that. But

1577
01:38:06.359 --> 01:38:10.840
we'll be here every weekday between now
and then five point thirty Eastern Tuesday through

1578
01:38:10.840 --> 01:38:44.880
Friday, and the hour before Raw
on Mondays. Thanks everybody, all right,

1579
01:38:44.920 --> 01:38:46.399
we're now at the VP after show
portion of the program. David,

1580
01:38:46.439 --> 01:38:49.319
thanks for your time. I really
appreciate you sticking around. No problem at

1581
01:38:49.359 --> 01:38:55.960
on cool. Let's hit a few
other subjects. VIP member Scott Briller emailed

1582
01:38:56.000 --> 01:38:59.079
in and he said, my question
concerns Daniel Brian. It looks like Brian

1583
01:38:59.399 --> 01:39:02.520
will finally win the title at WrestleMania. Does Brian, though, need to

1584
01:39:02.560 --> 01:39:06.079
win the title to remain w W
He's most popular wrestler. Well we might,

1585
01:39:06.279 --> 01:39:10.279
we might debate that that's an interesting
question in and of itself. Or

1586
01:39:10.359 --> 01:39:13.840
can he be like Sina where he
does not need to be champion to remain

1587
01:39:13.920 --> 01:39:15.880
number one or the face of the
company in question number two, This is

1588
01:39:15.880 --> 01:39:19.279
a long shot, but Couldvinced throw
curve at WrestleMania and turned Daniel Brian heal,

1589
01:39:19.439 --> 01:39:24.560
he would go from most loved to
most hated. David for your thought

1590
01:39:24.600 --> 01:39:27.800
on the first part, Daniel Brian
does he need the title to stay popular?

1591
01:39:27.960 --> 01:39:30.159
And I'll add my sub question,
is Daniel Brian more popular than John

1592
01:39:30.199 --> 01:39:36.680
Cena? I mean, I'm gonna
trust in numbers, guys who can who

1593
01:39:36.760 --> 01:39:41.239
seem to think that? I mean, who say pretty definitively that that Sena

1594
01:39:41.319 --> 01:39:44.079
is you know, still ahead and
merchant ticket sales and all that kind of

1595
01:39:44.159 --> 01:39:47.560
stuff. So, uh, you
know, they're different kinds of popular right

1596
01:39:47.640 --> 01:39:54.520
now. Daniel Brian, you know, has is riding a wave, you

1597
01:39:54.560 --> 01:39:59.600
know, a movement if you will, and h and there's no reason so

1598
01:39:59.640 --> 01:40:02.119
far to think that's going to subside. But I think the WWE in particular

1599
01:40:02.199 --> 01:40:08.119
is looking at it as as you
know, a wave like it might last

1600
01:40:08.279 --> 01:40:11.000
a week, it might last year, but it's this is definitely sort of

1601
01:40:11.479 --> 01:40:14.479
uh, you know, he has
He's gonna come back to earth at some

1602
01:40:14.520 --> 01:40:16.199
point. I'm saying that. I
mean, and that's not necessarily my point

1603
01:40:16.199 --> 01:40:20.399
of view, but there but uh
wait, what was the original question?

1604
01:40:21.359 --> 01:40:25.399
Yeah, well, does he does
he need the title or remain popular?

1605
01:40:25.880 --> 01:40:28.359
Yeah, I mean I think he
needs it certainly more than Seena does.

1606
01:40:28.399 --> 01:40:30.960
I mean, I think at this
point that the storyline demands that he win

1607
01:40:31.079 --> 01:40:35.199
the title, and I think that, uh, you know, anything less

1608
01:40:35.239 --> 01:40:40.399
than that will will hurt him.
I mean, it might not diminish him

1609
01:40:40.399 --> 01:40:43.640
in the eyes of his big of
his fans, but it will certainly diminish

1610
01:40:43.720 --> 01:40:46.760
him in the sense that people will
perceive that, you know, Vincent Hunter

1611
01:40:46.840 --> 01:40:51.079
decided not to give him the title, and uh, and that will I

1612
01:40:51.119 --> 01:40:56.000
mean, that might in some ways, that might make some people even more

1613
01:40:57.359 --> 01:41:00.920
ardent in their support of him,
but that'll but it it will diminish his

1614
01:41:00.039 --> 01:41:03.359
character in that way. And you
know, I think at some point he's

1615
01:41:03.359 --> 01:41:09.399
got to win. And I mean, you kind of have to establish yourself

1616
01:41:09.560 --> 01:41:12.199
as a champion before you can be
the guy who doesn't need the belt.

1617
01:41:12.760 --> 01:41:17.479
A few notable exceptions like Andre may
be excluded from that, but you know

1618
01:41:17.560 --> 01:41:21.439
it'll it'll be I'm not like I
said, I'm not one hundred percent sure

1619
01:41:21.439 --> 01:41:27.960
he's gonna win at Mania, but
but the the goal definitely has to be

1620
01:41:28.079 --> 01:41:30.880
to put the belt on him,
at least for a little while. His

1621
01:41:30.399 --> 01:41:33.880
second question was, Couldvin throw curve
and turn Daniel Brian Hill I think the

1622
01:41:33.880 --> 01:41:35.920
more likely scenario, and I want
to throw this into the mix in your

1623
01:41:35.920 --> 01:41:40.800
answer. The more likely scenario,
although still I think at five percent or

1624
01:41:40.880 --> 01:41:43.760
less and that may be overstating it
is see on Punk making a surprise to

1625
01:41:43.800 --> 01:41:48.760
turn at WrestleMania and costing Daniel Brian
the title, setting up extreme rules,

1626
01:41:49.000 --> 01:41:53.479
Paul Hayman managing that he'll see on
Punk because Punk would rather be heel against

1627
01:41:53.520 --> 01:41:56.479
the baby face Daniel Brian who got
cheated out of the title. Brian fues

1628
01:41:56.479 --> 01:41:59.520
with Punk all summer, then gets
a title matching against Batist at Summer Slimon

1629
01:41:59.520 --> 01:42:02.359
wins it. That's scenario in various
forms that have been presented by people kind

1630
01:42:02.359 --> 01:42:06.239
of creatively thinking of what might happen. But so that scenario, along with

1631
01:42:06.239 --> 01:42:09.319
what about danger Brian going hell?
What do you think of either of those?

1632
01:42:09.760 --> 01:42:13.760
I find I mean, I don't
know what to think about punk anymore.

1633
01:42:13.760 --> 01:42:16.079
I'm just gonna I'm sort of I'm
sort of I mean, that sounds

1634
01:42:16.079 --> 01:42:20.279
awesome. I'm sort of willing to
let that go until until you know he's

1635
01:42:20.319 --> 01:42:25.239
actually back. As far as far
as Brian turning heel, I mean,

1636
01:42:25.479 --> 01:42:29.760
it's almost like Seena turning heel,
except except well actually not, I mean,

1637
01:42:29.760 --> 01:42:32.560
but the opposite if Brian turned heel, I have a hard time imagining

1638
01:42:32.560 --> 01:42:35.159
anybody booing him, Like, how
would we know if Brian turned heel,

1639
01:42:35.199 --> 01:42:38.279
if he like shaved his beard and
put on a suit, would that be

1640
01:42:38.359 --> 01:42:41.039
him turning heel? We would people
actually boo him? I don't know,

1641
01:42:41.840 --> 01:42:44.680
Uh, you know, I mean
you saw it obviously he obviously when he

1642
01:42:44.760 --> 01:42:47.840
joined up with the Waatt family that
wasn't a heel turn. But I guess

1643
01:42:47.880 --> 01:42:50.239
you can wonder whether or not that
was a little bit of a test run

1644
01:42:50.279 --> 01:42:55.640
for how fans would react if he
started doing something. You know that there

1645
01:42:55.720 --> 01:43:00.640
wasn't a strictly babyface, and you
know, they just kept right on cheering

1646
01:43:00.640 --> 01:43:01.560
for him. The whole time.
I mean, that was obviously the point

1647
01:43:01.600 --> 01:43:08.000
too. But you know, I
think that of all the storylines in the

1648
01:43:08.000 --> 01:43:14.000
world that don't need to swerve finish, Daniel Brian finally vanquishing the authority and

1649
01:43:14.039 --> 01:43:16.960
winning the title is that storyline.
I totally agree. I think it would

1650
01:43:16.960 --> 01:43:19.439
be a terrible for all the reasons
you just said. I'm concurring it would

1651
01:43:19.439 --> 01:43:21.560
be a terrible idea to turn to
Dannil Brian because I don't know how you

1652
01:43:21.600 --> 01:43:26.079
would actually do it and have it
work. I don't even think Daniel Brian

1653
01:43:26.119 --> 01:43:29.079
could turn heel and see unpunk.
I mean, that's just like, I

1654
01:43:29.119 --> 01:43:30.520
don't know who you'd have to turn. I don't I think if he attacked

1655
01:43:30.560 --> 01:43:33.399
hol Hogan, fans would assume Hogan
was turning heel because Daniel. People would

1656
01:43:33.399 --> 01:43:35.920
think, oh, Hogan must have
done something disrespectful to Daniel Bryan, something

1657
01:43:35.920 --> 01:43:39.399
horrible to cause Brian to do that
to him. Like I just, yeah,

1658
01:43:39.439 --> 01:43:41.680
I don't know where you could go
with him speaking to Hogan. He

1659
01:43:41.720 --> 01:43:45.079
introduceds on Monday, we didn't even
get into this. David the under the

1660
01:43:45.119 --> 01:43:48.199
Giant Battle Royal. Jeff from Michigan
emailed and said, will this be a

1661
01:43:48.239 --> 01:43:51.720
good thing for WrestleMania, and could
they turn into something special like Money on

1662
01:43:51.720 --> 01:43:55.680
the Bank or is it just going
to be another forget about Battle Royal.

1663
01:43:57.520 --> 01:43:59.680
I think it's gonna be awesome.
I think that the biggest thing that it

1664
01:43:59.720 --> 01:44:02.920
does is it allows them to have
a big WrestleMania moment that sort of combines

1665
01:44:02.960 --> 01:44:06.479
a lot of the less significant I
mean, the stuff that that could have

1666
01:44:06.560 --> 01:44:11.159
kind of been overlooked at WrestleMania.
For a while, I was wondering how

1667
01:44:11.199 --> 01:44:14.479
that what they were going to do
with the sort of with the various giants,

1668
01:44:14.520 --> 01:44:17.279
you know, with Big Show and
with Mark Henry and and you know,

1669
01:44:17.319 --> 01:44:20.039
how they were going to give them
a moment. I don't know,

1670
01:44:20.079 --> 01:44:25.199
if you know, I have not
read SmackDown spoilers, so I don't know

1671
01:44:25.279 --> 01:44:27.840
if I don't know what happens this
week, but I don't know, so

1672
01:44:27.840 --> 01:44:30.600
I don't know what who they've they've
included in it. But it wouldn't surprise

1673
01:44:30.680 --> 01:44:33.359
me at all to see the real
Americans end up in the Battle Royal and

1674
01:44:33.399 --> 01:44:38.600
have their angle sort of play out
there. And frankly wouldn't have surprised me

1675
01:44:38.600 --> 01:44:41.199
at all to see that be the
moment. I mean to have the whole

1676
01:44:41.199 --> 01:44:44.239
point of the Battle Royal is for
Cuzar to giants wing. I mean,

1677
01:44:44.600 --> 01:44:48.159
big show and have that be the
finish. But but you know, I

1678
01:44:48.199 --> 01:44:53.560
think it's gonna be a big moment
and it allows one more uh you know,

1679
01:44:53.600 --> 01:44:56.960
it allows them to kind of toss
all this stuff together and make a

1680
01:44:56.960 --> 01:44:59.079
big match out of it. Now
if it I don't know if this is

1681
01:44:59.079 --> 01:45:00.439
going to be an annual thing or
not, but it certainly it's something from

1682
01:45:00.439 --> 01:45:03.720
the pull out of the back pocket
every once in a while. And you

1683
01:45:03.720 --> 01:45:06.880
know, it does have that amazing
trophy. And I don't think you know

1684
01:45:08.000 --> 01:45:11.279
if if if a trophy exists in
pro wrestling, it's gonna get busted over

1685
01:45:11.319 --> 01:45:15.279
somebody's head. So literally just said
that last night watching the mister Sayato Ho

1686
01:45:15.399 --> 01:45:18.520
Cogan Agle. It's so funny.
You said that's whenever there's cake or a

1687
01:45:18.560 --> 01:45:21.840
trophy, it gets broken. I
said that last night to somebody was watching

1688
01:45:21.840 --> 01:45:27.239
Awa stuff with and sure enough,
mister Cyito actually was embarrassing because mister SAIDO

1689
01:45:29.159 --> 01:45:31.319
swung the trophy and it broke before
it hit Ogan. It was a gimmick

1690
01:45:31.359 --> 01:45:33.760
trophy and cellfarer, So we had
to hit him with a base of it

1691
01:45:33.800 --> 01:45:36.680
instead, and that's what got the
blood. But yes, you're yes,

1692
01:45:36.720 --> 01:45:40.119
you're right. I got the impression
and I don't know that it's it was

1693
01:45:40.159 --> 01:45:43.239
explicit. But I came away thinking
it would be an annual event because it's

1694
01:45:43.279 --> 01:45:45.840
just a good way to get everybody
in the card on WrestleMania, because I

1695
01:45:45.840 --> 01:45:47.600
think very much to so many people, I like it for that reason.

1696
01:45:47.960 --> 01:45:50.840
I'm I'm a little worried it just
ends up being on the pre show is

1697
01:45:50.920 --> 01:45:54.600
kind of like you know, the
throwaway, you know, ten man tag

1698
01:45:54.640 --> 01:45:57.399
match type of thing. I want
them to make it special. I want

1699
01:45:57.439 --> 01:46:00.279
them to be something. I hope
what Jeff says it's true that it's it's

1700
01:46:00.319 --> 01:46:03.079
intricately booked and that, like you
said, there's a storyline that's memorable.

1701
01:46:03.079 --> 01:46:06.920
There's a WrestleMania moment for people,
and it's not just everyone getting the ring,

1702
01:46:08.039 --> 01:46:10.039
hit each other, stand in a
corner, watch some people fight,

1703
01:46:10.079 --> 01:46:14.039
throw people over, and then you
know, a big guy wins. Give

1704
01:46:14.079 --> 01:46:15.520
yourself a reason to look forward to. Go into the mailbox each week with

1705
01:46:15.560 --> 01:46:21.359
a PW Torch newsletter paper copy.
Subscription details at PW torch dot com.

1706
01:46:21.359 --> 01:46:26.520
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1707
01:46:26.520 --> 01:46:29.760
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1708
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1709
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1710
01:46:39.119 --> 01:46:43.119
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1711
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01:46:47.680 --> 01:46:53.119
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1716
01:47:12.359 --> 01:47:14.760
Yeah yeah, no, I mean, I I it's been a long

1717
01:47:14.800 --> 01:47:16.439
time since we've seen I mean,
correct me if I'm wrong, since we've

1718
01:47:16.439 --> 01:47:20.479
seen a legit Battle Royal in any
kind of like you know, big and

1719
01:47:20.720 --> 01:47:24.840
I mean I know there's been Diva's
Battle Royals, but to have that kind

1720
01:47:24.840 --> 01:47:27.479
of like high profile match with so
many people starting in the ring at the

1721
01:47:27.520 --> 01:47:31.399
same time, I mean, those
things are I'm sure just impossible to book

1722
01:47:31.520 --> 01:47:35.640
and end plan out. So I
agree with you too. If it's just

1723
01:47:35.640 --> 01:47:39.680
sort of like you know, if
it's just ugly, that's not going to

1724
01:47:39.760 --> 01:47:43.319
be much of a WrestleMania memory.
How about I just want your thoughts on

1725
01:47:43.319 --> 01:47:45.800
a whole Cogan and its usage so
far. I thought, you know,

1726
01:47:45.840 --> 01:47:47.680
the first week it was sort of
like, yeah, you know it's better,

1727
01:47:48.159 --> 01:47:51.439
Yeah, that's but this this last
Monday, I thought Seen and Ogus

1728
01:47:51.479 --> 01:47:55.119
standing in the ring together was kind
of no matter what you think of Hogan

1729
01:47:55.119 --> 01:47:58.800
and Seen it kind of epic,
like a big moment. Seena and Hogan

1730
01:47:58.800 --> 01:48:00.399
together was the best part. Hogan
is still in this weird mode where he's

1731
01:48:00.439 --> 01:48:03.560
like sort of the Hogan robot,
you know, like he just he was

1732
01:48:03.600 --> 01:48:08.840
better than his first appearance, but
you know, he just kind of just

1733
01:48:09.479 --> 01:48:12.880
you know, does all the catchphrases, does all the brothers, and puts

1734
01:48:12.880 --> 01:48:15.720
over the network, you know,
with it with ad nauseum. I guess

1735
01:48:15.840 --> 01:48:17.920
it's like the full string. You
just think you got a Hogan doll in

1736
01:48:17.960 --> 01:48:23.279
your pulling the string exactly, so
I thought, but it's cool to have

1737
01:48:23.359 --> 01:48:26.039
him back, and you're right if
you can if you can use those scene

1738
01:48:26.039 --> 01:48:29.920
of moments and you know, moments
with other superstars effectively, then you know,

1739
01:48:29.960 --> 01:48:33.000
there's sort of an endless number of
really great uses for him. But

1740
01:48:33.680 --> 01:48:36.520
you know, such as it is, I'm kind of glad they gave him

1741
01:48:36.520 --> 01:48:39.840
the Rumbles. I mean, let's
say I called it the Rumble. They

1742
01:48:39.840 --> 01:48:45.239
gave him the the Battle Royal too, because that sort of it sort of

1743
01:48:45.239 --> 01:48:47.000
clarifies. But his role at WrestleMania
is going to be, you know,

1744
01:48:47.039 --> 01:48:49.359
I mean, I guess it's possible
that he does a lot more than that,

1745
01:48:49.680 --> 01:48:53.560
but at least that makes that makes
it a little bit easier to wrap

1746
01:48:53.600 --> 01:48:56.119
your mind around, and you're not
going to be looking for him to you

1747
01:48:56.159 --> 01:48:59.840
know, run in and leg drop
Brian and reform the nWo in the main

1748
01:48:59.880 --> 01:49:01.319
of or something, you know.
I mean, it's I mean, it's

1749
01:49:01.359 --> 01:49:05.199
it's that's gonna be his thing,
and hopefully they'll make really good use of

1750
01:49:05.279 --> 01:49:10.520
him. But that'll be the extent
of the use of him. So I

1751
01:49:10.560 --> 01:49:14.880
will update although VIP this will be
the VIP portion has heard after I uploaded

1752
01:49:14.920 --> 01:49:16.880
to the site. It's not live
and people they care probably looked it up

1753
01:49:16.880 --> 01:49:19.279
by now. But Johnny Hendrick did
make weight by the way, on his

1754
01:49:19.319 --> 01:49:23.520
second attempt. Oh he did good. Yeah, so final matches on and

1755
01:49:23.640 --> 01:49:26.239
no, although I think I think
we have a story about Mma Torch that

1756
01:49:26.399 --> 01:49:28.680
the title would have been on the
line anyway even if he didn't make weight.

1757
01:49:28.680 --> 01:49:30.800
But I just clised at that line
because that's trying to by attention to

1758
01:49:30.800 --> 01:49:32.520
what the show that we're doing here. But I wanted to get a quick

1759
01:49:32.600 --> 01:49:38.600
update and hit refreshed. So yeah, interesting story. Let's let's let's talk

1760
01:49:38.640 --> 01:49:43.399
about Sena and bray White. We
got a good question from Vince who says

1761
01:49:43.520 --> 01:49:49.479
Vince B who says, we all
know that John Cena stalic humor and through.

1762
01:49:49.520 --> 01:49:53.520
Okay, there's a type of in
there is cringe worthy. Uh.

1763
01:49:53.600 --> 01:49:57.680
It usually is fine and probably makes
a portion of the audience last sincerely,

1764
01:49:58.000 --> 01:50:01.439
But he does not seem to understand
how is he is counterproductive to his opponents.

1765
01:50:01.840 --> 01:50:04.520
James Caldwell called it the Sena test, where he perhaps is trying to

1766
01:50:04.520 --> 01:50:08.560
see if his opponents are fast on
their feet, but the way he does

1767
01:50:08.600 --> 01:50:11.600
it, there's no way to come
back, Like how he completely destroyed del

1768
01:50:11.640 --> 01:50:15.800
Rio's gimmick when he blurted out that
his cars are rentals. In contrast,

1769
01:50:15.840 --> 01:50:18.239
you just have to look at Magnus
for last from last week's Impact. He

1770
01:50:18.319 --> 01:50:21.000
went out of his way to make
Simo Joe sound like the most dangerous man

1771
01:50:21.039 --> 01:50:24.920
on the planet. John Cena would
just make man boob jokes and kill all

1772
01:50:24.920 --> 01:50:28.479
of Joe's badassery. So my question
is where did John Cena learn this?

1773
01:50:28.840 --> 01:50:30.279
I get that as rapper, gimmick
was about making fun of his opponents,

1774
01:50:30.399 --> 01:50:33.680
but there's a difference between making fun
of someone and dressing them down. The

1775
01:50:33.720 --> 01:50:36.800
company is filled with brilliant wrestling minds
who are bigger stars than him, as

1776
01:50:36.840 --> 01:50:41.520
well as I'm sorry who are bigger
stars than him, as bigger stars than

1777
01:50:41.600 --> 01:50:45.479
him Comma, as well as guys
with seniority ranging from semi aive wrestlers to

1778
01:50:45.520 --> 01:50:47.680
the legends, as well as the
agents and whatnots. So why doesn't anyone

1779
01:50:47.760 --> 01:50:51.399
tell him that his way is not
best for business? Interesting question? What

1780
01:50:51.439 --> 01:50:56.319
do you think? David? Yeah, I think he did that question kind

1781
01:50:56.319 --> 01:50:58.720
of answered itself. I mean,
I don't know what I mean it had.

1782
01:50:59.159 --> 01:51:01.560
I mean, he's right about what
Sena does and is promo on Monday

1783
01:51:01.560 --> 01:51:04.159
against Bray. Why it was just
ridiculous. I mean to be saying,

1784
01:51:04.159 --> 01:51:09.000
like margaer Riteville, this generation is
the undertaker, you know, is just

1785
01:51:09.039 --> 01:51:14.359
sort of is just nonsensical. Uh. But you know, I mean to

1786
01:51:14.399 --> 01:51:19.239
some extent that'll be forgotten as as
it goes on. And I will say

1787
01:51:19.279 --> 01:51:25.680
that that Sina engaging with him as
a real person, to me at least,

1788
01:51:25.800 --> 01:51:30.760
is preferable to Sina engaging with him
as if he's actually like you know,

1789
01:51:30.119 --> 01:51:34.720
some some some you know, druid
using the dark arts or something like

1790
01:51:34.760 --> 01:51:38.399
that, you know, or that
he's actually like a threat to see his

1791
01:51:38.520 --> 01:51:42.479
life. Uh, that would not
be preferable. And we've definitely seen Seena

1792
01:51:43.439 --> 01:51:45.760
you know, seene a feuds in
the past where he was, you know,

1793
01:51:45.920 --> 01:51:49.199
fighting Umaga or whatever monster of the
month it was, and he did

1794
01:51:49.279 --> 01:51:55.119
kind of oversell the gravity of the
situation and that wasn't any better. But

1795
01:51:55.560 --> 01:51:58.359
it was a really weird It wasn't
a really weird scene. On Monday,

1796
01:51:58.439 --> 01:52:00.760
it'll be a kind of an interesting
to see how they walked that tire rope

1797
01:52:00.840 --> 01:52:05.000
going forward, because that can't be
ideal in anybody's eyes. But I don't

1798
01:52:05.000 --> 01:52:06.960
know who's telling him, I mean, my I mean, I don't think

1799
01:52:06.960 --> 01:52:10.960
that it's If I had to guess, I would say that it's not.

1800
01:52:11.319 --> 01:52:14.000
I mean that it's there's no conspiracy
or anything. I would just guess that

1801
01:52:14.079 --> 01:52:17.119
Seena got really over doing that gimmick, and at a time when not a

1802
01:52:17.159 --> 01:52:21.720
lot in WWE was getting over,
and the conventional wisdom has just let him

1803
01:52:21.760 --> 01:52:28.680
keep going because he figured something out. Yeah, yeah, well, the

1804
01:52:27.880 --> 01:52:31.760
the Bray whitet movement into the main
event, just facing John Cena. I

1805
01:52:32.359 --> 01:52:36.800
think that when we first heard it
it felt not WrestleMania worthy, and then

1806
01:52:36.840 --> 01:52:40.119
and then came the Brian turn,
and it was maybe going to lead to

1807
01:52:40.119 --> 01:52:43.039
Brian against Bray, they'd break up
in time for WrestleMania, and then they

1808
01:52:43.079 --> 01:52:45.359
went back to why a't Sina once
that thing didn't play out. I think

1809
01:52:45.399 --> 01:52:50.520
that's the generally agreed to timeline e
Vince kind of evolving on what to do

1810
01:52:50.560 --> 01:52:55.359
with scene and what to do with
Brian the last few months. I didn't

1811
01:52:55.399 --> 01:52:58.640
think it felt WrestleMania worthy, and
I agree with all the criticism of Sina's

1812
01:52:58.640 --> 01:53:00.319
promo money, and it was just
in recusable for him to do that.

1813
01:53:00.640 --> 01:53:04.840
But I think with Hogan now standing
side by side with Sina and on the

1814
01:53:04.880 --> 01:53:09.359
postgame show on Raw. Hogan didn't
promo where he said or he did an

1815
01:53:09.439 --> 01:53:13.319
interview where he said, I have
seen his back, And I get the

1816
01:53:13.359 --> 01:53:16.000
sense we got several more weeks ago
before Mania that Hogan might end up getting

1817
01:53:16.039 --> 01:53:20.079
more involved where not so much like
he's in a tag matchal scene against you

1818
01:53:20.119 --> 01:53:23.520
know, the Wyatt family. Although
they they could do that if Hogan could

1819
01:53:23.520 --> 01:53:25.800
pass a physical and they felt good
with it. I don't think they will

1820
01:53:25.840 --> 01:53:30.199
at all. But Hogan could be
part of the heat that the White family

1821
01:53:30.239 --> 01:53:33.199
gets, like they could attack Hogan
or or threaten to attack him, and

1822
01:53:33.239 --> 01:53:36.159
it kind of ends up being Hogan
more than just a host of Mania,

1823
01:53:36.159 --> 01:53:40.560
because that was maybe just the cover
story for him to have an excuse to

1824
01:53:40.560 --> 01:53:44.760
be on TV. But he actually
gets involved in a way in this feud

1825
01:53:44.920 --> 01:53:48.319
where bray Wyatt gets a rub from
essentially feuding with Hulk Hogan along with John

1826
01:53:48.359 --> 01:53:53.840
Cena, and I think bray Wyatt
can can come out of this really elevated.

1827
01:53:53.920 --> 01:53:56.800
I mean, as a guy at
his mid twenties that management's really high

1828
01:53:56.840 --> 01:54:00.600
on, has great pedigree. I
just think bray Wyat couldn't end up being

1829
01:54:00.640 --> 01:54:03.079
made by this wrestle medium more than
he already has been in the feud with

1830
01:54:03.119 --> 01:54:05.960
the Shield and everything else he has
done. We just have to keep John

1831
01:54:05.960 --> 01:54:11.039
scene away from you know, dressing
him down on television. But did you

1832
01:54:11.039 --> 01:54:13.640
come away from any feeling the same
thing that Wow, I have the way

1833
01:54:13.680 --> 01:54:15.439
Hogan's being used, Bray could end
up being the huge winner in this.

1834
01:54:16.159 --> 01:54:18.600
Yeah, I mean there's not I
totally agree. I totally agree. And

1835
01:54:19.119 --> 01:54:25.039
and Bray, uh, you know, has all the makings of a guy

1836
01:54:25.079 --> 01:54:29.840
who can be a really central,
you know, headliner, cater wrestler performer.

1837
01:54:30.279 --> 01:54:33.000
But you know, I mean,
you're right, I've been impressed so

1838
01:54:33.000 --> 01:54:36.000
far with how with how organic the
feud was. Seena has seemed, I

1839
01:54:36.000 --> 01:54:40.439
mean, now as he hasn't been
a huge central storyline, but uh,

1840
01:54:40.479 --> 01:54:44.119
it hasn't felt entirely like a step
down for seeing in execution. I agree

1841
01:54:44.159 --> 01:54:46.560
with you know, you that in
theory it seemed sort of like a weird,

1842
01:54:47.279 --> 01:54:49.920
a weird storyline. I mean,
part of it was when Sena cut

1843
01:54:49.960 --> 01:54:55.039
that promo I guess right before his
last match with Orton where he said,

1844
01:54:55.319 --> 01:54:57.439
you know, this is the end
of this feud and from now on,

1845
01:54:57.520 --> 01:55:00.640
I'm you know, fighting young guys
He didn't say that really explicitly, but

1846
01:55:00.680 --> 01:55:03.479
he said it pretty explicitly. I
mean, I think that's uh, I

1847
01:55:03.560 --> 01:55:08.039
mean, this might be the pass
to Scena getting over I mean amongst even

1848
01:55:08.079 --> 01:55:11.560
the smart fans. I mean,
for the longest time, his gimmick has

1849
01:55:11.560 --> 01:55:13.640
sort of been And he said this, and when he was in the ring

1850
01:55:13.680 --> 01:55:16.159
with Brian one time several months ago, where he basically said, you know,

1851
01:55:16.760 --> 01:55:19.800
I'm not I'm not gonna be everybody's
favorite wrestler, but I'm gonna make

1852
01:55:19.840 --> 01:55:23.680
their favorite, right, I'm gonna
I'm gonna make their favorite wrestlers matter.

1853
01:55:24.680 --> 01:55:27.439
Because that's what I mean, that's
what's happened with Punk and with Brian,

1854
01:55:27.520 --> 01:55:30.359
you know, like with that in
the absence of John Cena, neither of

1855
01:55:30.399 --> 01:55:32.640
those guys get what they've got,
you know. And uh, And if

1856
01:55:32.880 --> 01:55:35.279
he just kind of makes that his
gimmick now, or he's just sort of

1857
01:55:35.279 --> 01:55:40.079
the king maker just giving guys a
shot and letting him think or swim,

1858
01:55:40.720 --> 01:55:44.279
that you know, kind of makes
John johnsena interesting for the first time in

1859
01:55:44.319 --> 01:55:47.840
a long time. Although if that's
his goal, it's not really letting them

1860
01:55:47.880 --> 01:55:51.159
sink or swim. If he's taking
very wide and shoving his head underwater,

1861
01:55:51.520 --> 01:55:55.199
and some people would say that's what
he did on the promo on Monday too,

1862
01:55:55.279 --> 01:55:58.159
Like John has to if what you're
saying is correct, John has to

1863
01:55:58.279 --> 01:56:03.920
realize you can't I want to be
the kingmaker while you know, just undressing

1864
01:56:04.039 --> 01:56:06.760
these gimmicks on television. I mean
the Dell Real one where he said his

1865
01:56:06.840 --> 01:56:10.760
cars were rentals. I just I
mean, I still, I still just

1866
01:56:11.119 --> 01:56:13.800
my jow just dropped. It was
one of those moments Where'm like John Cena's

1867
01:56:13.840 --> 01:56:16.640
wrestling IQ, I can't think of
an excuse. I can't think of an

1868
01:56:16.640 --> 01:56:18.760
excuse. I mean, there's a
lot of times where I'm like, well,

1869
01:56:18.800 --> 01:56:21.319
maybe there's, you know, a
way of thinking that's different than mine,

1870
01:56:21.359 --> 01:56:25.119
that that this is okay. I
just can't imagine. Like I just

1871
01:56:25.159 --> 01:56:28.960
think Sena's wrestling IQ sometimes is really
low and he's just kind of kind of

1872
01:56:29.960 --> 01:56:33.399
insulated and protected from criticism. And
I think there's some truisms about the way

1873
01:56:33.439 --> 01:56:39.279
he does things where he doesn't know
and no one will tell him because he's

1874
01:56:39.319 --> 01:56:41.800
John Cena. And that even came
across to me in his interview with Steve

1875
01:56:41.800 --> 01:56:44.119
Austin. I thought there's a lot
of things he said that were really smart

1876
01:56:44.119 --> 01:56:45.800
and admirable, but there were a
few times I thought Steve Buston was biting

1877
01:56:45.840 --> 01:56:48.039
his lip a little bit. Yeah, No, I agree. I think

1878
01:56:48.039 --> 01:56:53.600
that's I think that's that's totally right. I mean, I think the insulation

1879
01:56:54.000 --> 01:56:58.279
is is real, and I think
that I mean, you definitely see times

1880
01:56:58.279 --> 01:57:01.720
in every interviewer that he does where
he's either being he's either deliberately holding back

1881
01:57:01.800 --> 01:57:05.199
or just sort of missing something,
and and uh, you know, it's

1882
01:57:05.239 --> 01:57:08.239
it's hard, it's hard to know. It's hard to know without knowing the

1883
01:57:08.239 --> 01:57:12.640
guy. But yeah, I mean
I think that what I was saying,

1884
01:57:12.760 --> 01:57:15.760
I meant separately from that whyatt promo, that'll just be a one time thing

1885
01:57:15.840 --> 01:57:18.600
and I and and we won't be
worrying about that, you know, in

1886
01:57:18.640 --> 01:57:21.560
a couple of weeks. But uh, you know, I guess to be

1887
01:57:23.000 --> 01:57:25.159
you know, I mean, bray
White, I mean, the bray White

1888
01:57:25.159 --> 01:57:29.159
gammit going forward is going to be
really interesting because it can't be like the

1889
01:57:29.239 --> 01:57:31.560
early Undertaker run. I mean they
can't and they haven't been doing it,

1890
01:57:31.600 --> 01:57:38.520
but they can't act like you know, there's something like like metaphysical going on

1891
01:57:38.600 --> 01:57:41.920
with these characters. Because fans will
just roll their eyes. They've walked the

1892
01:57:41.960 --> 01:57:46.439
line really well so far. You
know, they managed to they managed to

1893
01:57:46.600 --> 01:57:53.199
turn Brian without using you know,
smoke and explosions and anything like, you

1894
01:57:53.199 --> 01:57:56.880
know, and just been weird promos
set around a campfire or whatever. Right,

1895
01:57:57.000 --> 01:57:59.760
Yeah, well that could have been
the way that they would have gone.

1896
01:57:59.800 --> 01:58:01.199
That is the way they would have
gone, you know, a while

1897
01:58:01.319 --> 01:58:04.840
back. But uh, you know, so it I don't think that there's

1898
01:58:04.880 --> 01:58:11.600
any problem necessarily with sort of humanizing
them a little bit. And the scene

1899
01:58:11.600 --> 01:58:15.079
it can be the vehicle for that, that's fine, But the way that

1900
01:58:15.119 --> 01:58:19.039
he did it on Monday is not
fine at all. So it was when

1901
01:58:19.039 --> 01:58:21.720
you said think er swim, I
like literally in my mind just saw scenas

1902
01:58:21.920 --> 01:58:26.359
like literally just shoving very wide underwater
and then pulling him up and going swim

1903
01:58:26.399 --> 01:58:29.520
and then pushing him underwater. And
yeah, like I just like that visual

1904
01:58:29.600 --> 01:58:31.600
just came to me. And I
don't know, I'm I would be curious,

1905
01:58:32.359 --> 01:58:35.199
and it's something I just I need
to ask around. I'm just curious

1906
01:58:35.199 --> 01:58:39.760
if there's anybody who speaks truth to
sina, you know, the speak truth

1907
01:58:39.800 --> 01:58:42.960
to power type thing. Is there
anybody who can just talk to scene and

1908
01:58:42.960 --> 01:58:45.079
Sina will listen. Like Austin,
I thought it was this remarkable moment in

1909
01:58:45.119 --> 01:58:48.479
the Officin interview on this Keebosson podcast
where he said, John, can you

1910
01:58:48.520 --> 01:58:53.920
do me a favor and and and
be a little snugger on that scf do

1911
01:58:54.000 --> 01:58:59.720
it for me? And it was
like, there's almost like you can't count

1912
01:58:59.760 --> 01:59:01.840
them on one hand. There aren't
five people who can get away with saying

1913
01:59:01.840 --> 01:59:04.800
that to John Cena in this world. Yeah, and Steve Austin did it.

1914
01:59:04.920 --> 01:59:08.359
And then Sina kind of il self
deprecating and going, oh, it

1915
01:59:08.399 --> 01:59:11.840
made me feel bad for Randy and
all that. But like Austin, you

1916
01:59:11.920 --> 01:59:15.000
know, Austin watches Scena's matches with
a critical eye because Austin's such a student

1917
01:59:15.119 --> 01:59:17.920
of the game and that's the stuff
that he really cares about as a worker.

1918
01:59:18.319 --> 01:59:21.399
And Seena's awful in that regard in
certain ways. And I just I

1919
01:59:21.520 --> 01:59:25.479
just like almost applauded, you know, while listening to it, like,

1920
01:59:25.640 --> 01:59:29.159
thank you Steve for saying it,
because Seene of us have been insulated from

1921
01:59:29.199 --> 01:59:31.680
anybody telling him how awful this really
simple whole books the way he applies it.

1922
01:59:32.079 --> 01:59:34.239
Yeah, I mean I might have
said this to you for some reason,

1923
01:59:34.279 --> 01:59:38.000
I feel like the last time that
we were talking, but there was

1924
01:59:39.079 --> 01:59:42.119
Brian. Actually, Brian told me
this when I was interviewing him, that

1925
01:59:42.199 --> 01:59:45.359
there was a show where Austin was
backstage. This is probably like a year

1926
01:59:45.359 --> 01:59:48.880
ago, two years ago something like
that, and and was just chatting with

1927
01:59:48.920 --> 01:59:51.439
Sena and he's like, how's everything
going, and Seene's like great, great,

1928
01:59:51.479 --> 01:59:54.880
you know, the show's going really
well or whatever, and Austin just

1929
01:59:54.880 --> 01:59:57.399
shook his head and pointed out to
the crowd. He said, when I

1930
01:59:57.479 --> 02:00:00.840
was when I was headlining, all
those seats were full, and you know,

1931
02:00:00.880 --> 02:00:02.279
it's just like, yeah, I
guess things aren't great, you know,

1932
02:00:03.920 --> 02:00:06.720
but but you know, it's it's
true. It's true. I mean,

1933
02:00:06.720 --> 02:00:09.680
there's not that many guys that can
do it, and it's the guys

1934
02:00:09.720 --> 02:00:14.039
they come before and that really can
and most of them not a lot of

1935
02:00:14.039 --> 02:00:15.319
those guys are willing to do it, you know. I mean, it's

1936
02:00:15.399 --> 02:00:18.479
just not that they're scared, but
it's just they'd rather be buddies, you

1937
02:00:18.520 --> 02:00:28.840
know. And and it's cool that
often does that kind of thing. Every

1938
02:00:28.880 --> 02:00:32.159
Sunday night, Catch Wrestling Night in
America on PW Torchdailycast dot Com hosted by

1939
02:00:32.199 --> 02:00:36.159
me PW Torch calumnist Greg Parks.
Each week, I'll welcome a co host

1940
02:00:36.159 --> 02:00:40.319
from the Torch family to discuss the
big shows and pro wrestling, taking York

1941
02:00:40.319 --> 02:00:44.119
calls and emails. You can listen
live most week's beginning at eight pm Eastern.

1942
02:00:44.479 --> 02:00:46.600
On Sunday nights with a WWE or
Impacts pay per view, we go

1943
02:00:46.680 --> 02:00:49.199
on the air. At the conclusion
of that pay per view, you can

1944
02:00:49.239 --> 02:00:53.039
listen live, but of course,
the full show is available for download on

1945
02:00:53.119 --> 02:00:57.680
demand anytime shortly after it airs.
Visit PW Torchdailycast dot com and click the

1946
02:00:57.680 --> 02:01:00.800
live stream link to find the next
scheduled live show p W Torch and Apple

1947
02:01:00.840 --> 02:01:05.479
Podcasts or your podcast app to subscribe
the Wrestling Night in America every Sunday tw

1948
02:01:05.520 --> 02:01:21.399
Torchdailycast dot com. Well that was
Ben's question, actually, and I don't

1949
02:01:21.439 --> 02:01:25.159
have a good answer, which is
why aren't there more agents telling Sena and

1950
02:01:25.479 --> 02:01:28.159
you know what he needs to hear
and that these are bad ideas. And

1951
02:01:28.439 --> 02:01:30.159
I mean, I do know you
know that some of the producers in WWE

1952
02:01:30.479 --> 02:01:34.920
feel like their opinions aren't welcome,
you know, I know Jerry Lawler has

1953
02:01:34.960 --> 02:01:36.920
said that over the years that like, I mean, Jerry, you grew

1954
02:01:36.960 --> 02:01:42.920
up watching him. Jerry Lawler has
would be so helpful just so many guys

1955
02:01:42.920 --> 02:01:45.920
in WWE on how to cut promos, how to carry themselves, how to

1956
02:01:45.159 --> 02:01:48.000
like. We had a caller in
the live cast on Tuesday who said Jerry

1957
02:01:48.039 --> 02:01:51.520
Lawler would be great, a great
coach for AJ Styles because AJ had made

1958
02:01:51.520 --> 02:01:56.359
such an impressive appearance on the live
cast a couple months back and people were

1959
02:01:56.399 --> 02:01:59.239
just blown away, like Wow,
this was a lot better than we expected

1960
02:01:59.239 --> 02:02:02.279
it to be. And this caller
on Tuesday said, AJ's better when he's

1961
02:02:02.279 --> 02:02:06.680
not doing the wrestling promo, the
yelling, the angry, the demonstrative thing,

1962
02:02:06.840 --> 02:02:10.960
but he's just being more Jerry Lawler, like like plane spoken and picking

1963
02:02:11.000 --> 02:02:14.840
his spots. And Jerry, I
know, has been frustrated over the years

1964
02:02:14.920 --> 02:02:18.640
that management hasn't recognized that is something
that he could actually work with wrestlers on.

1965
02:02:18.840 --> 02:02:23.319
And I think what happened is Jerry, somewhere in the nineties just gave

1966
02:02:23.439 --> 02:02:26.960
up being hurt by it and just
said I'm here to get paid, I'm

1967
02:02:26.960 --> 02:02:28.840
going to do my thing, I'm
going to do what Vince wants me to

1968
02:02:28.840 --> 02:02:30.600
do. I'll play my role,
even if it's not the role I would

1969
02:02:30.600 --> 02:02:34.600
play if I were in charge.
And I just wonder how many smart people

1970
02:02:34.720 --> 02:02:39.039
arn Anderson picked the agent, pick
the producer, who are just in that

1971
02:02:39.079 --> 02:02:42.479
same position that maybe Lawler was,
where they feel beaten down and they just

1972
02:02:42.520 --> 02:02:45.399
think, you know, nobody wants
my opinion. So I'm just going to

1973
02:02:45.439 --> 02:02:47.920
shut up and collect my paycheck and
do my job. But man, it's

1974
02:02:47.960 --> 02:02:50.640
tough to bite my tongue. And
Austin is the one guy with a clout

1975
02:02:51.000 --> 02:02:54.199
not to do it. As Austin
always says, he did it when I

1976
02:02:54.239 --> 02:02:56.920
interviewed him and when I was on
his show and we were critical of the

1977
02:02:57.000 --> 02:02:59.720
product, he says, And he
has a good phrase he uses, but

1978
02:02:59.720 --> 02:03:03.920
he said, David, I've earned
the right to be critical of WWE.

1979
02:03:04.600 --> 02:03:08.640
Yeah, like, and he's right, he has. And who's gonna tell

1980
02:03:08.680 --> 02:03:12.680
him any different? Yeah, nobody, I mean, and that's one of

1981
02:03:12.720 --> 02:03:15.159
the great things about I mean,
it's one of the great things about him,

1982
02:03:15.199 --> 02:03:17.319
just kind of in general. And
yeah, I talking about what you're

1983
02:03:17.359 --> 02:03:20.720
talking about with the guys who are
you know, the agents or whatever that

1984
02:03:20.840 --> 02:03:25.760
might be too sort of you know, beaten down to really give, you

1985
02:03:25.800 --> 02:03:28.199
know, to give, to say
what they really saying, to do what

1986
02:03:28.239 --> 02:03:30.960
they really want to do. I
mean, if there's only a handful of

1987
02:03:30.960 --> 02:03:33.920
those guys backstage, that's more toxic
than anything else, you know, I

1988
02:03:33.920 --> 02:03:36.159
mean just having people. I mean, and this is not a knock on

1989
02:03:36.199 --> 02:03:39.600
them. If it's the workplace,
it's got him that way. But there's

1990
02:03:39.640 --> 02:03:42.479
nothing more toxic than guys showing up
just to collect a paycheck, I know.

1991
02:03:42.920 --> 02:03:44.760
And now I mean for any line
of work. And I'm not just

1992
02:03:44.760 --> 02:03:48.000
talking about wrestling, So you know, it's you should we should hope that

1993
02:03:48.039 --> 02:03:50.800
it's not that way, but it
wouldn't surprise me if it is. When

1994
02:03:50.880 --> 02:03:54.680
Jake Roberts was on the show,
you know, Jake wants to be either

1995
02:03:54.680 --> 02:03:57.920
on the creative team or on the
or producer for WWE, and there's just

1996
02:03:58.039 --> 02:04:00.720
things about his reputation that are knowing
and things that are that just kind of

1997
02:04:00.720 --> 02:04:05.239
work against that happening. But he
would be great. Like he said,

1998
02:04:05.279 --> 02:04:08.119
I want to get my hands on
Randy Orton, and he said, Bob

1999
02:04:08.159 --> 02:04:11.439
called him up and said, you
know, this was a few years ago,

2000
02:04:11.439 --> 02:04:13.279
but he says, you know,
oh you know, and he imitated

2001
02:04:13.319 --> 02:04:15.159
Bob Orton. It was great.
Jake did a good Bob Ordon. He's

2002
02:04:15.199 --> 02:04:15.720
like, you know, you got
to get my son, pull him aside

2003
02:04:15.760 --> 02:04:19.199
and give him that something extra that
he's missing that he needs. And Jake's

2004
02:04:19.239 --> 02:04:21.800
like, Oh, if I could
just have a couple of weeks with with

2005
02:04:21.800 --> 02:04:25.840
with Randy, you know, work
working with him on body language and promos,

2006
02:04:25.840 --> 02:04:27.960
I could get him to that next
level. And I think there's a

2007
02:04:28.000 --> 02:04:30.520
lot of people who feel they could
accomplish that for different wrestlers. And I

2008
02:04:30.600 --> 02:04:34.279
think that's one of the things WWE
in their structure could be better about,

2009
02:04:34.800 --> 02:04:41.000
is not having the people on top
the and secure or absent minded, whichever

2010
02:04:41.039 --> 02:04:44.920
it is, where they dismiss a
lot of smart people who have a lot

2011
02:04:44.920 --> 02:04:47.199
of areas especialty where they could help
other people get better at what they do.

2012
02:04:47.600 --> 02:04:50.399
Yeah, I mean could you I
mean why could they not do that

2013
02:04:50.560 --> 02:04:55.880
in at the performance center? Why
could they not hire you know, three

2014
02:04:55.920 --> 02:04:59.720
different guys to be to be working
with promos and then you know, six

2015
02:04:59.760 --> 02:05:01.359
months later, just see who's doing
a better job of it. You know.

2016
02:05:01.399 --> 02:05:03.520
I mean, if if someone can't
hack it, they can't hack it.

2017
02:05:03.800 --> 02:05:06.600
But they do have the ability sort
of and you know, down in

2018
02:05:06.640 --> 02:05:14.439
Florida to to maybe hire somebody like
Jake and to uh quell some of the

2019
02:05:14.520 --> 02:05:18.600
concerns about him, you know,
about his personal life trial. Yeah,

2020
02:05:18.680 --> 02:05:21.720
I mean, and just like you
know, life not on the road,

2021
02:05:21.800 --> 02:05:26.520
you know, is a big thing
for guys in his position. So you

2022
02:05:26.560 --> 02:05:28.600
know, I think that there's there, there are a lot of options,

2023
02:05:28.640 --> 02:05:30.079
and I you know, and who
knows. I don't think that it's I

2024
02:05:30.079 --> 02:05:35.560
don't think it's you know, it's
it's necessarily something they wouldn't do. But

2025
02:05:35.760 --> 02:05:40.720
you know, I there, there's
there's there. You know that the developmental

2026
02:05:40.800 --> 02:05:44.479
is has been evolving a lot,
and you know, hopefully they'll they'll come

2027
02:05:44.560 --> 02:05:46.399
up with some of the ideas like
this on their own so they can feel

2028
02:05:46.399 --> 02:05:49.760
good about doing them because they're not
gonna take They're not gonna take our recommendation

2029
02:05:50.560 --> 02:05:54.520
final subject. And my time is
kind of limited too, So I've got

2030
02:05:54.560 --> 02:05:56.439
a I got a run, But
I don't want to go through an interview

2031
02:05:56.479 --> 02:05:59.439
with you and not ask what you
think about Brock and Takers so far and

2032
02:05:59.479 --> 02:06:01.479
the hype in the angle, the
angles they'ved on the last stuff a few

2033
02:06:01.520 --> 02:06:04.920
weeks, I'll say, I mean, I've said this before, but you

2034
02:06:04.920 --> 02:06:08.680
know, I didn't know how excited
I was going to be for Brock Taker

2035
02:06:08.760 --> 02:06:11.399
until I saw him in the ring
together. I mean I I saw on

2036
02:06:11.479 --> 02:06:13.399
paper, I was just like,
yeah, that'll be a good match.

2037
02:06:13.439 --> 02:06:15.039
But like I was kind of like, you know, I had been imagining,

2038
02:06:15.119 --> 02:06:19.279
actually had been imagining Taker Brian for
you know, three four months back,

2039
02:06:20.439 --> 02:06:24.279
and and you know that, you
know, I had that in my

2040
02:06:24.319 --> 02:06:27.640
head. And there are some other
things I probably would have rather seen than

2041
02:06:28.119 --> 02:06:31.039
two guys who are part timers just
sort of you know, just just run

2042
02:06:31.079 --> 02:06:34.159
butting heads and taking up a spot. I mean not taking like It's not

2043
02:06:34.199 --> 02:06:36.439
like I don't I don't know it
sound that dismissive. It's I mean,

2044
02:06:36.439 --> 02:06:41.159
they're two great wrestlers who I always
enjoy watching, but you know, you

2045
02:06:41.199 --> 02:06:43.520
put two part timers in the ring
together, and it's sort of hard to

2046
02:06:43.560 --> 02:06:47.720
make it feel significant. But you
know, with with the same minimal,

2047
02:06:49.239 --> 02:06:51.880
you know, build up that they
seem to do every year with the Undertaker,

2048
02:06:53.199 --> 02:06:55.760
it does feel really significant, at
least to me. I mean maybe

2049
02:06:55.960 --> 02:06:58.720
maybe I'm just you know, more
of a mark for those guys than I

2050
02:06:58.720 --> 02:07:01.479
thought I was, you know,
And and and you know, one of

2051
02:07:01.520 --> 02:07:05.399
the big things that really helped me
was that was that Hayman Chicago promo where

2052
02:07:05.439 --> 02:07:11.359
he was able to mention seeing Punk, because that was what had been really

2053
02:07:11.359 --> 02:07:14.239
been missing from the storyline in the
previous week or two, was that,

2054
02:07:14.560 --> 02:07:16.760
you know, Hayman is the Hayman
is the fiber that connects last year and

2055
02:07:16.800 --> 02:07:21.119
this year for that match and and
to to to be forced to ignore it.

2056
02:07:21.279 --> 02:07:25.119
I'm not knocking WW for what happened
before because they didn't know what was

2057
02:07:25.119 --> 02:07:28.079
gonna happen with Punk, so they
didn't really know what to do with it.

2058
02:07:28.159 --> 02:07:30.119
But but you know, it was
a lot better once that was sort

2059
02:07:30.119 --> 02:07:34.399
of out in the open. And
uh and you know, I mean it's

2060
02:07:35.840 --> 02:07:39.680
I don't think there's any way that
Undertaker's gonna drop, gonna you know,

2061
02:07:39.760 --> 02:07:43.199
drop the street to brock Lesner.
But I mean, even if I knew

2062
02:07:43.199 --> 02:07:46.279
was one hundred percent certainty that the
Taker was gonna go over, there's just

2063
02:07:46.279 --> 02:07:50.119
something there's just you you're scared for
the Undertakers saying him standing next to brock

2064
02:07:50.199 --> 02:07:54.880
Lesner and that's a really awesome thing. Yes, yeah, yeah, I

2065
02:07:54.960 --> 02:08:01.239
just I hope that they didn't do
too much damage by taking away that moment

2066
02:08:01.560 --> 02:08:05.039
of building up to the moment of
Undertaker slamming Brock through a table, you

2067
02:08:05.079 --> 02:08:07.199
know, like I thought that was
just giving too much away, that that

2068
02:08:07.319 --> 02:08:11.399
was like, you know, a
whole program, a whole feud in two

2069
02:08:11.479 --> 02:08:13.880
minutes or ten minutes in that I
think you want to, you know,

2070
02:08:15.359 --> 02:08:18.079
build to that anticipation of what will
happen when they're physical with each other for

2071
02:08:18.119 --> 02:08:20.720
the first time, and that that
worried me a little bit. But I

2072
02:08:20.720 --> 02:08:26.880
think Brock being on a RAM page
for the next few weeks and Paul Hayman

2073
02:08:26.079 --> 02:08:30.640
may be starting to act scared that, you know, Brocks, that Undertaker

2074
02:08:30.680 --> 02:08:33.600
slam and Brocks, that's something off
in Brock, I think can get people

2075
02:08:33.840 --> 02:08:37.960
fearful for Undertaker. But I do
think you have You're right that that aspect

2076
02:08:37.960 --> 02:08:41.319
in play is what's accomplished. No
matter who wins. If Brock ends the

2077
02:08:41.359 --> 02:08:45.319
streak, well maybe Undertaker is going
to retire anyway, but now a guy

2078
02:08:45.479 --> 02:08:48.760
ended the streak who isn't going to
be around full time ever again. And

2079
02:08:48.800 --> 02:08:52.800
if Undertaker beats Brock, well,
Brocks lost before and it'll just be somebody

2080
02:08:52.840 --> 02:08:58.840
next year, Like it's ww's challenges
you have to get add something to it,

2081
02:08:58.840 --> 02:09:01.600
hopefully and not take away from what
you experienced. Then I agree,

2082
02:09:01.720 --> 02:09:03.439
is there which is holy crap,
look at these doing the ring together.

2083
02:09:03.640 --> 02:09:07.359
But you want to add a little
more to that, hopefully and not through

2084
02:09:07.399 --> 02:09:13.600
a premature angle where Brock is selling
the crap out of a choke slam.

2085
02:09:15.000 --> 02:09:18.000
You don't want to take away from
what organically is there if you just kind

2086
02:09:18.000 --> 02:09:22.399
of let it be. Yeah,
I mean, it's been my opinion for

2087
02:09:22.439 --> 02:09:26.159
a while that that, you know, despite Undertaker being such an old school

2088
02:09:26.239 --> 02:09:31.119
kind of guy, there's that the
most valuable thing to WWE's for the streak

2089
02:09:31.159 --> 02:09:35.000
to remain intact forever. I mean, it's gonna it's it's the DVD sales

2090
02:09:35.039 --> 02:09:37.760
are more important than whatever a little
rub it would give whoever it would be.

2091
02:09:37.880 --> 02:09:43.760
And it's impossible to imagine the guy
who needs that rub and who WW

2092
02:09:43.880 --> 02:09:46.439
would actually allow to have that rub, you know. I mean, Daniel

2093
02:09:46.439 --> 02:09:50.199
Bryan may have been the one guy
who is sort of at that level where

2094
02:09:50.199 --> 02:09:54.319
it would have really boosted his profile
and where he was also you know,

2095
02:09:54.720 --> 02:09:58.760
where WW had the confidence in him
to do it. But they're not just

2096
02:09:58.760 --> 02:10:01.199
gonna give it to They're not going
to give it to you know, Dolph

2097
02:10:01.279 --> 02:10:05.199
Ziggler and then let you know,
let him leave the company in six months

2098
02:10:05.239 --> 02:10:09.640
or whatever. You know. I
mean, it's there's just no the equation

2099
02:10:09.920 --> 02:10:13.119
for for how that would happen is
just so it's just it's so minimal.

2100
02:10:13.319 --> 02:10:18.680
I don't know what is the term
for when two circles have an area that

2101
02:10:18.760 --> 02:10:26.199
they overlap. Cocentric circles. Yeah, there's that that overlap where there's there's

2102
02:10:26.239 --> 02:10:31.840
a circle of guys who are worthy
of being against Undertaker at WrestleMania, And

2103
02:10:31.880 --> 02:10:33.840
that's a small circle. You know, there's some like, there's a lot

2104
02:10:33.840 --> 02:10:39.319
of guys who would benefit from beating
Undertaker. That's a huge circle of people

2105
02:10:39.359 --> 02:10:41.880
who would benefit from beating him.
It's almost everybody on the roster. But

2106
02:10:43.560 --> 02:10:46.960
who deserves to be against Undertaker?
That's a really small circle. And then

2107
02:10:48.119 --> 02:10:52.600
where is the overlap? Where is
somebody who will benefit Brock wouldn't, you

2108
02:10:52.640 --> 02:10:54.319
know, you know, John Cena
wouldn't. That'd be a waste. So

2109
02:10:54.439 --> 02:11:00.239
who benefits who also is worthy of
that spot where you're not wasting it and

2110
02:11:00.279 --> 02:11:03.079
taking away drawing power. And it's
that's where you go, maybe Daniel Bryant

2111
02:11:03.079 --> 02:11:05.600
this year, and I made it. I made a case a couple months

2112
02:11:05.600 --> 02:11:09.359
ago on the Keller Hotline. Someone
asked a question. I just kind of

2113
02:11:09.479 --> 02:11:13.279
agreed that Ruman Rains might have been
might this year or next year be that

2114
02:11:13.359 --> 02:11:18.159
guy who if they want to move
into the next level he might be worthy

2115
02:11:18.199 --> 02:11:20.760
in the fans eyes of the match
and also is early enough in his career

2116
02:11:22.119 --> 02:11:26.159
that it would greatly benefit him.
But I think unless you find that person

2117
02:11:26.239 --> 02:11:30.960
in that moment who can draw and
benefit draw in the match and benefit from

2118
02:11:30.960 --> 02:11:33.439
winning, you just let take or
retire with the street. I totally agree.

2119
02:11:33.479 --> 02:11:35.199
I mean, and I mean yeah, I mean you look at you

2120
02:11:35.199 --> 02:11:39.000
look towards next year, and yeah, I mean there may be any of

2121
02:11:39.039 --> 02:11:43.439
the guy I mean, any of
the guys in the Shield or Bray Wyatt.

2122
02:11:43.439 --> 02:11:45.920
I mean, those are guys that
could see could conceivably be in that

2123
02:11:46.000 --> 02:11:50.039
level. And it's it's the fun
to talk about those guys. I'm excited

2124
02:11:50.119 --> 02:11:52.720
to kind of have the conversation aboutin
of the year, just to see how

2125
02:11:52.800 --> 02:11:54.960
much of them and how much of
that has panned out, because you know,

2126
02:11:56.000 --> 02:11:58.279
it's inevitably it's not going to pan
out for all of them. I

2127
02:11:58.279 --> 02:12:00.720
mean, I don't mean it's gonna
be entragedy, but you know, it's

2128
02:12:00.920 --> 02:12:03.960
it's just never it never is a
hundred. Nobody bats a thousand when you're

2129
02:12:03.960 --> 02:12:07.600
picking, when you're picking performers.
But yeah, I mean, it's just

2130
02:12:07.680 --> 02:12:11.159
it's really hard. It's really hard
to see, uh you know what what

2131
02:12:11.279 --> 02:12:13.880
benefit that would have? And uh, unless it were something crazy like you

2132
02:12:13.920 --> 02:12:18.720
know, unless that were like part
of the contractual negotiations, if you like

2133
02:12:18.960 --> 02:12:20.880
told Punk he could break the streak
if you signed a ten year contract or

2134
02:12:20.880 --> 02:12:24.760
something like that. You know you
but that you know that you that's that's

2135
02:12:24.800 --> 02:12:28.920
just totally like, you know,
fantasy. So Vince Vince went, Vince

2136
02:12:28.960 --> 02:12:33.039
and Hunter would allow themselves to be
held hostage and have a wrestler, you

2137
02:12:33.039 --> 02:12:35.520
know, dictate to them doing something
bad for business, just to get them

2138
02:12:35.560 --> 02:12:37.359
to come back at least not somebody
upon strawing power, which is not hul

2139
02:12:37.399 --> 02:12:41.720
Kogan or Steve Austin. Yeah,
yeah, Ben Ben diagram, by the

2140
02:12:41.720 --> 02:12:46.000
way, is a Vin diagram right
now? Is something else? You're right?

2141
02:12:46.079 --> 02:12:48.760
Yeah? Yeah, I looked it
up what you're talking because I wasn't

2142
02:12:48.800 --> 02:12:52.520
sure, but I looked up overlapping
circles. I googled it and sure enough

2143
02:12:52.520 --> 02:12:54.359
the image is popped up of a
ven diagram. That's what I'm talking.

2144
02:12:54.439 --> 02:12:58.760
Yeah, where where did? Where
is that tiny, tiny overlap of somebody

2145
02:12:58.800 --> 02:13:01.359
worthy for the match, who can
benefit from it? And and you know,

2146
02:13:01.520 --> 02:13:03.720
Danny Bryan this year, maybe Roman
reigns next year. But you gotta

2147
02:13:03.760 --> 02:13:05.520
find that and you're right, it
may not even work out, and it

2148
02:13:05.560 --> 02:13:09.520
could end up being at Albatross where
that wrestler is. It's the equivalent of

2149
02:13:09.520 --> 02:13:15.439
being the number uh you become.
I'm trying to think of first round NBA

2150
02:13:15.439 --> 02:13:18.880
picks who were busted. Joe Smith, you know, yeah, you end

2151
02:13:18.960 --> 02:13:22.319
up who's the Russian the Russian center
that Detroit picked. He played on Minnesota

2152
02:13:22.399 --> 02:13:28.920
and Boston. Wait the Russian centers? No, just he just in the

2153
02:13:30.000 --> 02:13:35.159
last eight he was drafted. Oh
Darko, yes, Darko militants. He

2154
02:13:35.239 --> 02:13:37.720
was on the Wolves and there was
a David Kahn pick up and then he

2155
02:13:37.760 --> 02:13:41.039
went to Boston and like didn't last
your training camp or something. Yeah,

2156
02:13:41.079 --> 02:13:43.279
you know, like you get that
first round pick and it just puts way

2157
02:13:43.279 --> 02:13:46.960
too much pressure on you, you
know, or you just were the wrong

2158
02:13:46.039 --> 02:13:48.399
choice. And picks for the wrong
reason. So you don't want to be

2159
02:13:48.439 --> 02:13:52.600
that guy, the guy who ended
taker streak. But you're an asterisk that

2160
02:13:52.880 --> 02:13:54.560
you know, Everyone's like, whatever
happened to that guy? Oh yeah,

2161
02:13:54.600 --> 02:13:58.239
he flamed out? Yeah, totally
true. I don't think. I don't

2162
02:13:58.279 --> 02:14:01.439
think there were any reason this year
that it's gonna end this year, unless

2163
02:14:01.640 --> 02:14:05.840
you know, the only thing is
that if Undertaker just decides to retire and

2164
02:14:05.960 --> 02:14:07.880
just insisting going out in his back, you know, I mean, but

2165
02:14:07.920 --> 02:14:11.680
I think that likely here, that
is really minimal. Yeah, I guess.

2166
02:14:11.760 --> 02:14:15.479
I guess you could see a scenario
where Taker says, for I don't

2167
02:14:15.520 --> 02:14:18.039
know what reason, but I want
I'm done this year, and I don't.

2168
02:14:18.039 --> 02:14:20.239
I want the street to end,
and I want to hand the streak

2169
02:14:20.279 --> 02:14:22.640
over to something that can draw money. I want Lesnard to destroy me and

2170
02:14:22.720 --> 02:14:26.720
the streak and end my career,
and that's gonna be the storyline. And

2171
02:14:26.760 --> 02:14:28.560
if I can come back, which
I think is only twenty five percent,

2172
02:14:28.840 --> 02:14:33.600
I'll have a comeback match against Brock
and will draw major money. Or if

2173
02:14:33.640 --> 02:14:35.079
I can come back, I'm willing
to go out on a stretcher because I

2174
02:14:35.079 --> 02:14:37.640
think Undertaker should go out that way. Again, I'm not saying Mark thinks

2175
02:14:37.640 --> 02:14:41.399
this way, but if he did, and then he says, I want

2176
02:14:41.399 --> 02:14:45.800
you to turn brock inding my streak
into a storyline that leads to Brock headlining

2177
02:14:45.840 --> 02:14:48.159
against John Cena next year, with
Brock following to end Sina's career and all

2178
02:14:48.199 --> 02:14:50.079
the scene of fans will be fearful
of it, and then you've got your

2179
02:14:50.119 --> 02:14:54.239
storyline. Like, That's the only
way that I could see Undertaker losing is

2180
02:14:54.239 --> 02:14:58.079
if Mark Callaway himself pitched it and
pushed it and came up with a scenario

2181
02:14:58.119 --> 02:15:01.760
that Vincent Hunter liked. Yeah,
I agree with that. Yeah, cool,

2182
02:15:01.840 --> 02:15:03.920
David, I love this stock.
It was great having back on the

2183
02:15:03.920 --> 02:15:05.960
show. And what a great week
to I mean we left at least half

2184
02:15:07.000 --> 02:15:11.640
the hot topics on the table on
explored. So it's been. It's a

2185
02:15:11.680 --> 02:15:13.439
great It's a great time of year, so I mean it'll be the next

2186
02:15:13.439 --> 02:15:16.760
few weeks would be a lot of
fun. It will. Well. I

2187
02:15:16.800 --> 02:15:18.840
appreciate, uh, appreciate your time
today and come back to the show.

2188
02:15:20.279 --> 02:15:22.079
I'll do it, man, I'll
talk to you soon. Great, Thanks,

2189
02:15:22.079 --> 02:15:24.319
Thanks, we'll have you on again
if you're will all right, no

2190
02:15:24.439 --> 02:15:46.239
brah anytime, Cool invite you to
email the show with feedback or questions or

2191
02:15:46.279 --> 02:15:50.319
comments. That email address is Wade
Keller Podcast at pw torch dot com.

2192
02:15:50.399 --> 02:15:54.520
That's Wade Keller Podcast at pw torch
dot com. Also welcome your feedback on

2193
02:15:54.560 --> 02:15:58.760
Twitter. You can follow us on
Twitter at pw torch and follow me at

2194
02:15:58.840 --> 02:16:07.000
the Wadkeller. That's at PW torch
and at the Wadkeller. Searching for more

2195
02:16:07.039 --> 02:16:09.800
great pro wrestling talk, then join
me Jason Powell, host of the three

2196
02:16:09.840 --> 02:16:15.439
weekly Pro Wrestling Boom Podcast. Each
week you'll hear the latest news and analysis

2197
02:16:15.479 --> 02:16:18.720
from me and my team at pro
wrestling dot net along with other pro wrestling

2198
02:16:18.720 --> 02:16:22.239
media members. Plus, the Pro
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notable names in the pro wrestling industry. Subscribe and Itunestitcher, Downcast, and

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Once again, that's PW boom dot
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podcast. Did you know we also
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Daily news updates, editorials, and
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day every day to keep up on
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com. Need an extra dose of
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join me Alan ferel Over in the
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mask on the bright side of wrestling
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or Mexico. There's always a place
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2212
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and we've done fun historical shows such
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glorious career of Jusian thunder Lighter and
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for. We love variety and you
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Just go to Apple Podcasts and look
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the comments section. Thank you so
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into the developmental system and ultimately the
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rising talents and why they did or
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nineties, and also our podcast library
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Go VIP and dive into our post
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