The moment at which you are cancelation doesn't matter at all. Hollywood has first
sworn and the clergy is then then it'll be safe or who knows that I
can show them my special art. Yeah yeah, maybe then Christopher Ruffo will
have won everything in the cultural wars will have been yeah. Right, But
even that, even that would be too far right. So this is this
is not going out. So in case anybody hears this, it's it's it's
not awful or naughty stuff. It's just today it would be very socially unacceptable.
It's it's American images from a specific time and place, very much so
collected for reasons we can go into later. Ask not what your country can
do for you, Ask what you can do for your country. Mister grbachaw
tear down this wall. It's the Ricochet Bon guest with Rob Long and Stephen
Aywards sitting for Peter Robinson again. I'm James Lilas. Today we talked to
Ann Coulter, so let's have ourselves a podcast. I'm not supposed to be
here tonight, not supposed to be here, and I'll tell you I stand
before you in this arena only by the grace of Almighty God. A new
ap Pole show. Sixty five percent of Democrats believe Biden should withdraw from the
race, plus fifty eight percent of Democrats think Kamala Harris would make a good
president. Welcome everybody, It's the Ricochet Podcast number seven hundred. I just
figured that out in Roman numerals. In quested that we got to this point,
and how do we get to this point? Why with the usual fine,
sparkling conversation that you find at ricochet dot com every single day, brought
to you here in podcast form. I'm James L. Alex in Minneapolis,
Rob Long in New York, I presume, and Stephen Hayward sitting in for
people. Wow, let's oh, yeah, we don't know what happened to
be here. Peter, he's completely he's gone. He's not a runner,
he's gone on a walk. He may be walking across Australia at this point
towards the Ires Rock or is it Airs Rockrock? Okay, you wouldn't know,
Stephen, being the world traveler that you are. Where do you happen
to be today? Not that anybody cares, but yeah, I have been
to the top of Airs Rock. By the way, what it's worth it
some years ago. I am currently where I usually am, which is the
foggy, cool central coast of California. There we go. We got the
country of Paradise. We have the country cut well. To bring everybody up
to speed in the news. On the Democratic side, Joe Biden has stepped
down. Joe Biden is staying in Kamala. Harris is going to be the
presidential nominee. It's going to be an open convention. On the Republican side,
Donald Trump spoke too long. I know which side, frankly, I
would like to be on if I was concerned about the party's health and how
things are going. But it's almost difficult at this point to say one thing
or the other, because by the time this thing hits the hits the podcast
waves, things may have changed. Convention, though I'm sure all of you
were riveted, I stopped actually paying attention to them when I stopped going to
them. As a matter of fact, when I was going to them,
I wasn't paying particular attention because it's just an awful lot of theater and it
gets tiresome. Last night, it's always fun. The balloon drop, the
hoopla, great fun. Everybody energized pours out goes to the bar, et
cetera. But have you picked up anything so far vibe wise from your long
distance observations of the conventions. I didn't. I haven't pick up anything vibe
wise. I mean, I think it was a it was it was a
bad speech. It started great and then it just went all over the place.
And I I just it's proof once again that Trump will tease us with
his discipline and then falls totally apart. But the convention itself was kind of
mean. It was a good convention in general, and I'm also it's kind
of I mean, I was just remembering that we didn't have conventions, really,
we didn't have conventional conventions four years ago, and it was it felt
like an old friend, you know. I mean, these conventions are always
kind of fun. I mean for me anyway, I just kind of like
him. I just like the idea of that, the goofiness of it,
and I think this one was kind of on message and had I mean,
I mean, I full disclosure that there are things that the Republican parties moving
in a direction that's that it's not including me in that they're becoming a lot
less economically conservative than I am so. But but to to to present a
coherent worldview, uh, and a coherent economic view to the people is how
you judge these things. And I think they did. They did a really
good job on that, I really do. I think that you have to
give them credit for it. The hardest thing in the world is to be
clear, right and to tell people in simple terms, what you what you
stand for, what you're going to do, And and everybody did that except
Trump. But but he even he did it for the first you know,
the first two hours of his speech. The last three hours he meandered.
So I mean, in general, I mean, it's it's it's a I
mean, I listen, if you woke up this morning and you were in
the r NC, you'd be pretty pretty please yourself. Yeah. Yeah.
I have lots of observations. Two quick ones. One is everyone knows the
story of the Gettysburg address. Lincoln speaks for two hundred and seventy two words,
and Edward Everett spoke for two hours, and Trump decided to be Edward
Everett. When the rest of the convention was a little closer to the Gettysburg
ad press right, it was sort of moving and emotional and very effective.
The other thing is I'd love to see what the ratings are for this convention.
I don't know if we still do ratings of the conventional or not,
Rob you would know. But well, the reason I say that is I
think there was a lot of a lot more interest in what was going to
happen at this convention because of the events of Saturday last Yeah, and in
one parallel between twenty sixteen and now. And also another assassination attempt is you
know, I was in Washington as a young kid out of college in March
thirty, nineteen eighty one, and you know, watching all that very closely.
And one of the many effects of Reagan surviving so bravely that assassination attempt
is that the wavering Republicans who were unenthusiastic about his plan fell in line behind
him instantly. Yeah, and he unified the party. People Now forget that,
you know, Bob Dole, Pete Damenijie. A lot of the old
modern liberal Republicans did not really like Reaganomics, but and there was a lot
of doubt that he could carry his own party all the way to the end,
and that un the fight. Everybody behind Reagan. Likewise, today,
the people who have doubts about Trump have been unified behind him, and so
you had a convention that was much more unified and together an enthusiastic than the
one in twenty sixteen, when large parts of the party only grudually accepted his
nomination. Right, yeah, yeah. And also I think, I mean,
the Republican Party is kind of used to him. I think the audience
in general's used to him. So the other issue here is that it didn't
seem like amateur hour the way it has in Trump world since twenty sixteen.
It didn't seem like, oh my god, the Dalisters are a charge,
this thing's a mess. It felt like somebody had really thought about, Okay,
what's the message going to make the American people with that all had a
lot of it had to be rethought after Saturday, and I think a good
job there. I you know, I'm just I'm going to be the skunk
at the garden party. Unfortunately for me, it seems a little a little
too frankly, too left me for me. I mean, the the economic
message to me is liberal. It's big government, and I'm not crazy about
that. But I think the mood of the people. It might reflect the
mood of the people. I'm perfectly willing to be out of step with the
American people. I often amd and I think I might be here. Well,
there's one significant exception to that, Robin the speech last night, and
it might have been the part you slept through or rolling your eyes. But
remember Trump made a big point of saying, we're going to do tax cuts
and because we need to have faster growth, that's the only way we can
reduce our deficit and reduce the national debt. That is old school Reaganomics,
supply side economics, that parts all the sort of map cons say Reaganomics and
the Reagan era is dead. Well, that was a significant exception to that.
Yeah, I guess I hear you there. I found that not full
throated enough for me because because it didn't come it doesn't it doesn't come with
it. And actually, look, I mean, the man who gave that
speech is uh is at least cheap. He shares responsibility with the president president
of wrecking the country's finances, I mean just single handedly wrecking them. And
then but it wasn't from tax cuts. It wasn't from tax cuts. Well,
no, it never is. It was from spending. But the left
is always going to say that what wrecks the American economy is tax cuts because
it means that the billionaires have lots of money which they go into their golden
rooms and burn and that right, But he's there there against billionaires too.
That that the populist message from the Republican Party is and we're going to protect
rich people, and we think that you are the wealth that you've created,
and the value you've created over time is yours. It's we're going to get
the fat cats too. That's the message of populism. So it's not exactly
that. I mean, I'm clinging to Steve's little golden crumbs of Reaganism because
I'm that I have to, but I would I would like a more full
throat of Reganism, and you can't. There is no way I agree with
tax cuts as a stimulus. I think that's true. And in general,
I think starving the beast is a good idea, although the beast never seems
to be starved. And if you're if you are chief, one of your
chief platforms is I'm never going to touch in titlements. We now have two
presidential candidates, both of whom are living in cloud cuckoo Land. There is
only one way, especially we're talking about rebuilding the the the defense. Like
I'm in favor of strong defense too, I would like the I would like
a presidential candidate, either one to tell me why we need one, especially
if one party is resolutely turning to an isolationist position. Why do we need
this big army if we are going to the isolationist who are we fighting?
Well, you have two points there. One when it comes to the facts.
I don't ever see the Republican Party going after billionaires for the sake of
billionaires. We hate these guys because they have an awful lot of money,
and that's unfair, is a Bernie Sanders line. If they hate the fat
cats and the elites, it's because of something else other than their money.
It's their influence, it's their control supposed to control. It's it's it's that,
I mean, it's it. They're not mad at billionaires because billionaires have
not all the money. They're mad at them because they say that we all
have to put on masks and they buy up the farmland and you know,
and tell us we have to live in fifteen minute cities. That that that
stuff. So I mean think I think that's different. And when it comes
to the military thing, well, you know, you can say best defense
is a strong offense. And if we just sit here behind our shores and
continue, I mean, part of one of the reasons we need a big
military is to keep the sea lanes open. That's not an isolationist thing.
Being able to serve power anywhere, to ensure the free flow of oil and
goods is not isolationism. I mean, it's just Oh no, that's a
very good point. I would like to hear that argument. That's a good
argument. I'd like to hear it. Well, Rob, I think we're
coming to the you know, you and I I'm older than you, but
you know we've spent our entire life wanting to hear specific things being said by
our leader. No. No, But here's what I mean is if you're
if you're arguing for a strong defense, and you have a kind of a
robust uh position about projecting American power and America's role as a global hedgemon,
and you think America should stay the strongest country in the world. I mean,
which, by the way, position I kind of agree with. But
it's an old school. It's an old school position. It is not the
position of the Republican Party. It is not the position of the vice presidential
nominee for the Republican Party. It is just simply not. They do not
want us in they that's they're the ones who invented the term forever wars.
They don't want us. They don't they didn't want I mean, I agree
with him about Iraq. We should have been interacted. It was a gigantic
failure. But the idea that we're gonna we're on the one side of our
mouth, We're going to talk about how we need to like, we need
to pair back o our commitments to the world, and we can't be given
the Ukraine money and we can't be doing all us that's all that. Those
all could coherent world points, but they don't. They they directly contradictorily.
They don't complement the idea of a large, robust military. I mean,
if the Chinese invade Taiwan, why is it in our interests to defend Taiwan?
I mean, all the people saying we shouldn't be in Ukraine, I
agree, But what's the what's so great about Taiwan? Yips semiconductors. Okay,
yeah, but the chips we got to be you have to build them
here, building them here. And I agree, we're in the middle of
an offshore you know, we're drawing back from China in many ways, we're
rea shoring, as they say we're you know, there have been moves in
that direction, but we're not there yet. And I mean, I get
what you're saying, Rob, but I want to go. You just said
that you agree with the people who don't believe that we should be sending money
to sending money in material or to Ukraine, or you're saying you understand that
position. I understand that. I understand the isolation's argument. It's a good
it's a good argument. I don't agree with it, but I understand it.
It's an ancient it's an old American argument. It's sewn into the American
flag. It's practically it's in our DNA, and I totally get it.
And we have for the past century done the opposite. He raised a lot
of questions that unfortunately require extensive discussion, which we have time for. Well,
I'm just mentioned a couple of observations, though one is neither Trump nor
Vance mentioned the word Ukraine. What Trump did say last night and his speech
was if we don't if our hostages are not out of Gaza. I remember
there's what eight or ten or twelve Americans there. If our hostages are not
out by the time might take office, they're essentially it's gonna be hell to
pay for gods. That's what he said there. He made a very specific
point. The larger one is, uh, yeah, we want to.
I think the old school would be. So the point about Ukraine is they're
preserving you might say, strategic flexibility. Uh. Trump has been very silent
about Ukraine. There's disciple and there's there's there's defects and pluses to that.
Uh. The point about having a large, powerful military is is no one's
going to mess with you. That's old school, right, and I think
that's true. You know, part of Ronald Reagan's strategy was We're going to
bankrupt the Soviet Union by out building them. It cost a lot, but
it worked. But the problem with China is I'm not sure we can outbuild
them. They're outbuilding us, and so this is a serious problem to figure
out. Uh, yes, I agree, I think that's true. I
guess what I would just say on on the the what America's position is is
that we're playing where the Republicans seem to be playing a lot with fire,
and they're making a lot of arguments for things that are not traditionally conservative,
or at least not by any definition conservative, like tariffs. And once you
make that argument, it's hard to It's just it's just it's hard to back
out of it, because they're they're popular. People like tariffs, even though
they're dumb and they're inflationary and they hurt the economy, and these are I
just I am, I'm I'm slowly coming to the belated understanding that that the
Republicans are no longer the grown ups in the room, hampered and saddled by
their good sense. A party that features Kid Rock and Hulk are not a
serious party. Oh I like that part. I'm like, I'm in favor
of that. I just mean it used to be that, you know,
we had to make not we I'm not a republic Republicans had to make these
tough, unpopular, difficult to make arguments about taxes and why though taxes are
better? And regulation and what and and federalism and all sorts of stuff and
and why tariffs are like sound good, but they're they're dumb, uh,
and we just don't do that anymore. And maybe that that's a that's a
that's a shift, and that's I guess a shift in the population. That's
fine too. Shift probably in generational politics, that's that's fine too. But
I just I yearned for I yron. I just see I yearn. That's
all. Just gonna leave it at that. I yearn. I yron too.
I do, I absolutely do yearn. But the problem was perhaps in
the mind of the voters, and I'm not contradicting anything you said here,
that those arguments were made tepidly and came along with a series of things that
seemed to be not so much helping the American people as it did the Chamber
of Commerce. That's how it was. The argument that's made is that at
the same time that they would talk about lower regulations and lower taxes and the
rest of it in an abstract sense that really didn't click with an awful lot
of people, they would be talking about immigration and lots of it, so
we can get the wages down, so we can get more cheap workers,
et cetera. And eventually I mean what began with Reagan, I think sort
of just became a sclerotic series of arguments that were made by people that I
never really explained and just seemed designed to prop up one Romney after the other.
And mind you, I think Mitt Romney would have been ten times better
than Obama. And I think he's a decent man, even though a lot
of the stuff that he says they disagree with. But it just seemed to
be an institutional wrote recitation that didn't really address the dynamics that were going on
in the country. Now, when you talk about tariffs, yeah, I
hate them to absolutely do. But on the other hand, I think if
you said to people, look, we're going to put tariffs on China that
are so significant that those three dollars cheap plastic shoes from Timu are going to
be four bucks and we're gonna, you know, and we're gonna make sure
that American shoes can be made for five and they're going to be better,
it's hard to argue with that. Ye, I mean, it's not how
it well. I like the first part of it. If if you want
to have a trade where the first part of it makes sense, the second
part of it, doesn't the idea that, Okay, we're going to put
tariffs on the just cheap ot Chinese shoes and we're going to help Americans make
cheap, cheap o shoes. Like, why are we helping people do that?
But I understand, I mean, we've just been joined. I understand
the one part of it. But I guess I'm just I'm just still a
paleo economic conservative. I still don't like it when the federal government, which
in my lifetime has often been controlled entirely by liberal progressives, will be in
the White House in an executive branch. Again, I guarantee you. The
idea that we're going to see to that administrative branch all sorts of dumb things.
To me is I don't know, makes me a little nervous. I'm
too old. I remember the Obama administration. So that's my problem. I
agree. I mean, we've been wandering in the wilderness saying these things for
an awful long time, and we will continue and we will continue to do
so because you know, if nothing else, as a reminder of the basic
bedrock ideas that got us through the eighties, and I have not been eliminated
or contradicted by time, experience, or changes. I mean, there are
some things that abide, there are some things that are true. So yes,
let's keep saying them. And the other hand one of those things.
And if the team Moushugars go up to four bucks, I'm not exactly going
to be crying. Welcome back to and Culture author, host of the podcast
Unsafe with a culture on some one particular Rocoschet networker. Yes, latest books
are in Trump We Trust e pluribus awesome and resistance is futile. How the
Trump hating left last? It's collective mind And welcome back. Thank you real
enjoyed these four our acceptance speech last night. How about you, guys,
Well we clocked the two and a half, but in my ancient Senessen state,
I may have dropped out before we get to the RNC, though,
your thoughts on the aboard of attempt, the assassination attempt which really to change
the complexion of this of this election. Two things. One is I don't
think every single speaker at the RNC needed to describe it to us, and
every single one. I'm in a house of people and I got them all
groaning when they got to and then the shot whizz passed his ear and he
pumped his fist. Yes, and he and accept. It goes on for
twenty minutes this description, and he said, fight, fight, This is
the most watched video probably certainly in the last fifty years. There is no
one in that audience who didn't see it. Please please stop describing it.
That's point one point two. Everyone seemed to think, I've I've a bunch
of bets. Unfortunately, the one with James Higgins is only for a nickel,
the Culter family biggest bet, but many nickel bets in one stake bet
that the nominee would not be Biden, which I concluded immediately after reading the
New York Times at editorial in one of my in one of my Ricochet Boba
gas, I've described, and I think I'm right about this, that whether
Biden stays or goes is basically a fight between two groups within the Democratic Party,
the Blacks and the Jews. And I'm putting my money on the Jews.
After Trump got took it in the ear, all my bets started saying,
Okay, are you ready to buy me a mistake dinner yet? And
I said, hang on, and now we see it looks like, I
mean, who knows, it can go back and forth. I'm stronger belief
than usual that they're going to make Biden drop out, so I'm going to
win my bets. Yay. I think people got a little too enthusiastic in
other words about that shooting. I mean just saying, Okay, Trump has
won, it's over. His speech was good, although weird and rambling.
Last night, a lot of the convention was incredibly weird. But by and
large I can see why a lot of Republicans are thinking, right now,
it's over. He's going to win. A lot of people set out out
of the shooting. A lot of Democrats, I know, said okay,
that's it. I'm voting for Trump. But four months is a long way
away. So I'm not making any bets on the general election. And do
we have any bets together? We we we have had we bet together.
I don't know whether we're on the same side of a bet as anybody.
I can't remember. You know, this is why you got to write these
things down. No, by and large, it's usually you and me against
the rest of the Hampton's which is which is, but only in this only
on these only on every four years because the eight years all Anne does is
like attacked me. Yes, because I'm a true buchananight, And if I
could put in a good word for Romney, I think he gets a bad
rap as being more of an establishment Republican than he was. The reason I
supported him because he looks like it. He looks like mister wall Street,
and I think that probably didn't play well with the white working class. He
doesn't talk like Trump. But the reason I supported him and supported him ferociously
in twenty twelve, was he had the toughest position on immigration of any Republican
in my lifetime. Remember he was mister it'll be self deportation. We simply
we don't have to round him up. They round him up to get him
here. We don't have to round him up to get him. And we're
just going to enforce the immigration law to prevent employers from hiring them. And
they'll go back the same way they came. And you will recall, perhaps
you will not Rupert Murdoch, one of the immigrants who absolutely does not care
about the welfare of the average American. A few weeks before the nomination,
had a sit down meeting with Mitt Romney, this is like the centerpiece of
his game. It would be like telling Trump to drop build the wall,
and he harangues Romney and says, you got to drop this self deportation,
and Romney just laughed and said, no, I can't. So he stood
by one being harangued by rupert mock Murdoch. Whereas you know, Trump capitulates
in a second no matter who's talking to him, including Jared Kushner. So
I think Romney looks like establishment weenie rhino Republican like my friend Rob Long here.
But he really was not okay? Was it weird when they booed Mitch
McConnell. I mean, you've been a pretty outspoken Mitch McConnell defender. I
was when he was running and they were primarying him. I wrote about this
in I think It's I think it's never trust a liberal over three where I
think that's the one where I attacked the Tea Partiers. I mean, I
loved the original grass roots Tea Partiers, but then you had all these quote
Tea Party candidates and as I counted it, we had lost like five Senate
seats because of Tea partiers primary Republicans who may not be my cup of tea.
But they have an R after their name. And so I was ferociously
defending Mitch McConnell. I think that was that would have been twenty ten,
that was the Big ten, or maybe it was twenty twelve and he had
that guy forget his name, but anyway, he had a Tea Party candidate
running against him. And I'm saying, you know, Kentucky isn't a red
state. We could lose the seat. No, it didn't happen, but
you know, Christine o'donnelld Todd Aiken, Richard Murdoch, my roodeek is no,
no, but never primary a Republican, no matter how bad the Republican
is, at least until you have a massive overwhelming majority in the House of
the Senate. That's angel Yeah. And it's Steve Hayward out in California.
And you know, as James mentioned among your books, was in trumply Us
from twenty sixteen and then and then you guys had you and Trump had a
really bad breakup. I mean it was Ben affleck j Low bad. But
I note that benefits back together. At least that's what the tabloids say.
So my question for you is is there anything a second Trump term could do
that would revive an old trumpter because would the wall satisfy you or you need
to buy there is I think I've been very clear on this point. Yes,
I want a wall. Okay, I'll tell you the story. I'll
see a story behind this. Uh. We were twenty twenty. We were
at a I think probably at that's the very same house you're in right now.
We're at a dinner party. A lot of Republicans there, and they
were like, they're trying to bring Ann back into the fold and these are
these are establishment Republicans, but they're big Trumpers. And what I'm saying,
and listen, I talk to the White House all the time. You know
one of those guys who's like, I mean, I know people and what
could I I'd like to tell them, what is it what they could do
for you that would bring you back to the fold. And Anne said build
a wall. I want a wall. And one of the wives said,
oh, Anne, I don't think the wall was that big a deal.
It's like, are you crazy? Like so that's that's the backstory to that
to build a wall. But it's true, like if he you know that
twenty twenty would have been a very different election had he been able to say
I built a wall. By the way, Trump Trump missed a major opportunity
last night. I think he could still do it, which is he says,
let's want to get rid of all this green energy nonsense in these windmills.
You know right now, when those things were out, we bury all
those blades. How about sticking them in the ground at the border and using
all those stupid blades and windmills for war construction. Wow, I think I
think people love that idea, right, A wall that consists entirely of spinning
mincing blades. Yes, we probably you know. And interesting, we've been
on this podcast for thirty minutes. You've been with us for however many JD
vans hasn't come up. One is that because we're too enthusiastic and bound up
in the Trump mystique, or is it because it isn't that important? Tell
us what you think about the guy. Yep, she froze. Yeah,
she's frozen up. So we'll have to improvise, ladies and gentlemen for a
moment there. You may actually have thought that Ann Culture did not immediately respond
to the question with a you know, with a delightful series of charming observations
and outrageous assertions. But no, she froze. We lost her, so
we're gonna have to get her back here in a second and in the meantime,
since it's just us, what do you think, guys, I am
intrigued by the fact that it's been a long time since we've had a heep
with a beard. Oh right, one hundred years, I think, yeah,
yeah, yeah, well by the way that beard grew, he was
clean shaven at the beginning of Trump's acceptance speech last night the night. Yeah,
yeah, at the end of the game the Civil War general. Right,
he's a very interesting character. Oh, we got back. We've got
a little land back. We're hearing her back from the other side of the
multiverse. Yeah, and she's winking in and out like Kirk in the Thulian
Web. Anyway, anyway, so go on, rob uh. You know,
I'm uh, Jade Vance has got to be one of the most interesting
people. Interesting in a personal journey, interesting intellectual journey. I mean,
I'm again, I'm I don't want to be the jerk here, but I
am always the jerk here. I am disquieted by the fact that he was
such a full throated Trump critic and then now a full throated Trump uh uh
running mate. It's so they were so extreme that it feels to be like,
this is an unformed person. It's at Rob accolytes the word you're looking
for us act like yeah, yeah, someone going off to seminary ought to
have that one, right, Yeah, you're right. Well, you know,
all due respect to acolytes. I just it just to me, it
feels a little I don't, I don't. It just feels unformed. Like
this is a young man and he's you know, his own personal life story
is interesting and his I mean the in light of his you know, populism,
economic populism, his his Ivy League roots and powerful wife. I think
these are all sort of these were red flags for for a candidate like Jadie
Vance. I mean to say so that I find him. He's confusing to
me because I feel him his inconsistency makes me nervous. Well, two observations.
One is he's the youngest vice presidential running mate since Richard Nixon in nineteen
fifty two. And I think the fact that Trump picked him and as rob
points out, was willing to set aside all those old harsh remarks. It's
kind of interesting, but I think he picked him because it's doubling down on
the brand of rejecting the establishment, right. Yeah, Instead, and it
wasn't he didn't pick somebody to pick a state appeal to a certain group.
He said, No, I'm going to double down on my brand and point
the way to the future of the party. Second thing, one of the
things I thought was interesting in Vance's speech is twice he said, and I
think people picked up on us. He said, you know, I know,
you know, there's a lot of disagreement amongst us about what we should
do about various issues, but that's what makes us stronger. We'll just argue
these things out. I thought that was a very interesting technology. He said,
it makes our movement stronger, which I've always believed by the way his
church LEXU level right. I thought that was quite significant part of his speech
that a lot of people dis missed. Yeah. I agree. And there's
a lot of things with JD Events that I disagree with. I'm a Ukraine
Hawk supporter. He isn't. There's some changes in his opinions on this and
then the other. I don't agree with it. But on the other hand,
if we'd got if you've gone with a Doug Burgham for example, or
somebody who what would Doug Burgham have been? He would have been another Pence,
He would have been sort of another hologram decent man was, you know,
integrity and smarts and all that. But it just brings absolutely nothing vance
bring that that that cohort of the country that is worried about people mired in
intergenerational poverty and drug use. I mean, that's that's just that box tick
and and it's it's hard not to see that. It's a way of saying,
I see these people, I see this problem, I understand it,
and I'm concerned about it. But you know when you say that he was
a strong critic and then he's changed, well two things. One, all
of us by this point in our lives should know that politicians are infinitely malleable
depending on the circumstances, and we shouldn't trust any of them. Uh.
And Two, from what I understand about Trump, it's not what you said
yesterday is what you're saying today. If you were just if you if you
were a critic a month ago, but today you are in full throwner agreement
that matters more than what you said before. And I don't know if that's
a personality defect or if it's just human nature for him, or well,
he does like it when you bend the knee. Yeah, the people around
him tend to be I guess I will use the term acolytes, but there's
not people around him do not tend to stand up to him, and the
ones that do don't last. What do we mean by bend the knee though,
because I mean, I mean, we've used that, We use it.
We use it a lot during the early, you know, the first
Trump presidential campaign and administration, because we wanted to say that a little bit
of the Caesar to it. We wanted to say that a little bit of
the king and the authoritarian and the rest of it, bend the knee.
We had that. But you know, maybe it's not so much as that,
as not bending the knee, but just assuaging the the ego of of
of of making sure that he knows you're on his side. That's not necessarily
submitting yourself to the to the magisterial authority of Donald Trump. It's just it's
it's just saying I'm on. I'm on the side of the people who don't
laugh at you as Donnie from Queen's I'm on the side of the people who
are not making fun of you as an RV stay short fingered vulgarian who doesn't
really belong in polite society at all. I'm not one of those. And
I'm coming around to the idea that's that's what it is, not the authoritarian
nature, because the whole season of authoritarian stuff just got very, very tired
early on when we saw that that was not how the administration was going to
go. Yeah, I'm not sure though that I'm not sure that that that's
true. I mean that I understand what you're saying, except that I think
that the people the bending the knee means you have to capitulate. And you
know, he has one thing we can say about him is he has terrible,
terrible taste in staff, right. I mean, by his own admission,
he's fired them all and didn't like them all, and he surrounded himself.
He's a very bad hirer right, And so loyalty is the most important
thing for him because he's inconsistent. So bending the knee is it is a
pejorative because it did. It does seem like there were times and even I'm
sure we'll see in the future where he's surrounded by willing eunuchs, right,
I mean, they think what's happened to Ted Cruz or Marco Rubio or any
of those people who were sort of statesman in twenty fifteen, and then by
twenty eighteen we'reus sort of I mean in Harem practically, so I'm not sure.
But again we're talking about then, is right. We're talking about politicians
want access to power and the ability to use power, and so the clearest
route to that is is going to be going through the guy who's at the
top. Yeah, now, oh sorry, No, I know nothing.
I'm and I don't mean to get particularly spun up or part of this issue.
If I if I sound as if I am, it's because I'm really
energetic today, and I'm very energetic. Why are you energetic? James?
What I am? I am? One of the reasons is my potasha metabitalism
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Ricochet podcast. Any chance we have a back yet or if we just did.
Think I'm seeing her, but Steve, you got you had a you
wanted a you wanted to chime in on this is she had a sloped rough
or something. You get up. She get an update for cloud from crowd
striker. That's That's one of my jokes is how do you flumox the Secret
Service? You slip them a roofie. Now you are you are just you
know, stand up king today. I'm having a good time with you guys.
I'm like you, James, I'm kind of I'm kind of amped up.
Uh, but I do dissent from Brother Rob. But Brother Rob,
you are my favorite rhino and I usually thank you. But on this loyalty
question, I have a different perspective. First of all, as an old
guy, my knees don't bend very well anymore. So this is a tough
subject. But I will concede to you that Trump gives loyalty a bad name.
But look there, but loyalty to presidents and administrations is actually very serious
and significant problem and a reasonable demand. I mean, Nixon complained about disloyal
appointees. The Reagan administration had a big problem with that. And by the
way, I think you want to make a distinction between political loyalty, which
is are you loyal to the president's program and ideas or are you personal loyalty
to the person, or are you out to make your own career. You
know, it used to be said that Nancy Reagan had a superpower for being
able to tell when someone was working in the Reagan White House to help Reagan
look good and help achieve his executives, or someone there to build up their
own resume and maybe sometimes undermine them. The problem with Trump is, and
I'm coming back closer to your position again, is you don't know what his
program is. Necessarily. I think a lot of people who went to work
for him, like General Kelly and some of the others, they probably intended
to be loyal to him in the ordinary sense. Hr mcma all those there's
very bard. They're all very able people who would thrive in any other administration
with a president who was less shall we say, mercurial than Trump was.
So one question for a second term, if we have one as expected,
is Trump going to be steadier and more consistent in what he wants done?
Or if not, it'll be just like the first term with lots of chaos.
Even if your point really able and people who intend to be loyal.
So it's some more complicated problem, that's all I mean. The second second
term would not have Russia Gate. It would not have from the get go
this whole concerted narrative. That absolutely clud what I mean, Yeah, that's
I mean, that's important. Is it not? No, it's not,
It really isn't. I mean he blew it in the first term. As
presidents in their second term have less power, they accomplish less when they talk,
I'm talking about they need accomplishments. What they need to do in the
second term is compromise and they think about their legacy. And that's when they
get nervous because they don't have any leverage because everybody knows it's not running again.
And the minute you get you take off. As any second term president,
it's the same thing. The clock is ticking. That's you know kind
of what they why they call the second term president lame duck. We don't
have the stick you used to have. Well, not going to walk in
with that. That's going to be this that's the political reality of his second
term. It would be that. It's the reality anybody's second turm. I'm
sorry, Steve, go ahead, No, that's another reason for the JD
Vance pick, right, is that is pointing beyond it. In other words,
he doesn't want to be a typical second term president. Well, yeah,
I mean I think I think that that would be the three dimensional chess
argument for it. But I just wish I knew what their what their plan
was in a country that is not He is not going to I mean,
we're not going to have suddenly a lock on the house in the Senate.
Even if he does, it's only for two years. What his plan is
to do things differently from the way he did them in the first term,
No, and I don't see that. But when I when I say there
won't be Russia Gate, I mean we will have all We will have a
political landscape that is actually about the issues. You may disregard, you may
disagree with what issues he wants and the way he wants to do them,
But it seems as if we have a fighting chance to do that without having
this immense, tornadic activity in the press and the media and the culture about
Russiagate. Yeah, but remember, Russia Gate was a problem for him because
he made it a problem for him, because he woke up every day and
spent three hours in his bedroom putting on his makeup and fixing his hair and
tweeting and watching the morning shows and getting furious he chose to do that.
I mean, if you look at when Bill Clinton was being impeached, rightfully,
so in my mind it was about to be kicked out of office,
which I wish he had had been. He actually managed to get things done.
If you cannot compartmentalize as a chief executive, especially in your second term,
you're sunk, you're sunk. So the idea that his I mean,
I mean, I know I'm a broken record on this, you should probably,
I'm sure there's a million the Trump supporters now turning this thing off because
nobody wants to hear it. But no regards he didn't. The stuff he
got in his first term attacks a bill, which I agreed with, and
then some foreign policy successes which were great, but he passed steel tariffs which
were idiotic and hurt the American economy. This is not an argument. You
can't argue this. This is twenty nineteen economic data, and it was because
of what he did in steel for steel, our trade gap I mean in
terms of importing exporting to Mexico went south when he renegotiated foolishly NAFTA and didn't
change much except to include the big trade unions on the bargaining table, and
then he went to China. This is what happened. Right then he went
to China and rattled his sword, and I was all in favor of it.
But the first thing he gave up was in the intellectual property protections that
American businesses need. So it's like, this guy is inconsistent at best,
and we haven't gotten to the part where he seated the entire federal government to
the swamp during COVID and he attacked the Republican governors who stood up. So
I mean, I hope he's going to be better, But like I think
we if you have the if you have principles that are conservative, you have
to you can't just give them up. Because you know, he got shot
in the ear and looked heroic and is in many ways kind of a cool
dude. I think he's a funny guy and I think he's super charismatic,
But I don't know, Like this is the world's getting more complicated. This
is the funny part is that you have on the left right now people who
believe that Donald Trump is going to get into office and institute Project twenty twenty
five and put them all in camps. They actually believe that we're here.
On the other side, you have Rob Long saying no, I'm more's just
going to get back in and and and put in more steel tariffs. But
I literally said he's going to which I agree with you is a bad idea.
But what I'm talking about is that we had four years, for three
years, of a cultural narrative about this guy that was overblown. It was
absolutely, you know, just a volcano of paranoia that I don't think we're
going to have this time because it's burned itself out. And the idea that
we're going to replay the four years of hair on fire that we had previously,
I don't think that's the case. I think that that has been spent,
is what I'm saying. And so in the absence, I mean,
one of the reasons possibly we couldn't have good arguments about any of the things
you were talking about was because we always were back into a corner about well,
he's a tool of Putin, and that was the only thing that anybody
ever really talked about for a very long time. In the absence of that,
I think there's an opportunity in the first two years to have a little
bit more clarity and a little bit more you know, discussion of the issues.
That's my hope. I may be a Pollyanna. I'm sure I am.
We've got a few minutes here and where we send out the part and
I will settle it, Rob. But it won't go well for you because
I have to say I'm really unused to Rob Long, the policy wonk.
But well, I mean, I can do a different balance sheet on various
policy season, but I won't. Instead, I want to look at something
that normally I would expect from you to observe it. And just one example,
when George W. Bush pulled us out of the Kyoto Protocol back in
two thousand and two, he just did it with a letter, an executive
boarder or whatever. Yeah, when Trump pulled us out of the Paris Climate
Accord, he did a big White House ceremony, He had a brass band,
he invited me down. He talked about how we love our coal miners.
By the way, coal mining went down more under Trump than it did
under Obama. Okay, but the point was is that why is that important?
That's important because like I said, I have a more favorable view on
the balance sheet of policies than you do. But the broader point is he
is he is, he is working a well. First of all, it's
a frontal challenge to the premises and the dialogue of our establishment. You know,
no other Republican would have had a brass band to say, I'm going
to give the middle finger to the Paris Climate Accord, which is a nothing
burger agreement. By the way. He didn't need to do that, by
the way. Everybody around him was against it. His Secretary of State was
against him doing that, if Jared and Ivanka were against it, and he
went and did it. And that's what I like about the guy. And
I think we're getting more of that. Please, And I'll just plant this
now and you guys will talk about it later some other episode. But the
civil service reform idea, it sounds wonky, and it's actually, I think
quite significant, And if he get makes some progress on that, that's going
to be very significant. I think I won agree. Okay, I do
too. And here's something else that I'd like to see back. I'd like
to see back the push toward traditional architecture and government building. Yes, and
I know that a lot of people believe that this is just a precursor to
fascism, because you know what did Musolini do well, Actually he went with
sort of a stripped down fascist modern thing. But that's irrelevant. The idea
that somehow we are going to be repudiating all of the progressive elements of the
twentieth century if we go back to a more eye pleasing symmetrical form of architecture
is ridiculous. Of course it would be. It would be they'd have a
better job making the argument on the other side if they weren't defending hideous monstras
these that that that soil the landscape at nearly almost every American city where they're
planted. I just love the idea. Biden, I think got rid of
that that the edict on day one, on day one, and I think,
you know, Trump will probably do it back. There's probably some building
out there, and given the pace at which these things are constructed and planned,
that's been in you know, that's been moving along for six years now,
and now the guys who stripped off the columns for the version that they're
planning to build are been wondering if we're going to have to put the columns
back on that good thing. With computer aid design, it can be,
it can be. Okay, when Trump was Trump did this thing and we
had you know, it was symmetrical, it had a portico, it had
the columns. And then Biden came in. We made it asymmetrical. We
added a whole bunch of reflective glass and brutalless concrete on this side. But
not Trump's coming in. I wonder if we can eat anybody got that drawing
beg that we had. You know, one of my my professor of architectural
history in college, gave a big, like a like a five day five
not five days, like three day lecture on the the horrible turn in public
architecture from sort of you know, you know modernism, if you like it,
you know, the steel glass thing, it's that's that's kind of everywhere,
but to the brutalist kind of concrete stuff that they were doing. Every
federal building looks like that pretty much. And he said, and he used
the perfect example of it was the Boston City Hall, right, which is
on this Skully Square, which these old squares there's kind of beautiful and it's
like we used to be kind of a rabbit's warren of roads and was just
this big flat plaza with this concrete beehive on top of it that was asymmetrical
and kind of top heavy. And he said, and I remember, this
goes this building, and this plaza is fit only for angry and violent demonstrations.
And you look at you like, yeah, like it's a it's a
it's a government screaming at the people and providing them flat ground in the you
know, with no trees to screen back. And and it was exactly right.
I can never look at those buildings again. So yeah, okay,
I'm I'm in favorite brass bands when we pull out of stupid climate change nonsense.
I'm in favor of putting a doric columns back. But he's about to
say no, no, no, no, I must not be right there,
because you're right. He was right about the brutalism building. And as
I've said before, it's interesting whenever they make a movie about a dystopian future,
all they have to do is go and find a college campus somewhere that
was built between sixty five and seventy five, and they have all of the
humorless oppressive nature of an authority and state, authoritarian state right there. It's
an awful form of architecture. And I thought it was dead. I thought
we were past it. Yeah, it was in Edinburgh last week, a
couple of weeks ago. I got to see the new Scottish Parliament. Oh
it's that awful I've seen now, absolute excressence of it. It's one of
the worst buildings I've ever seen in my life. And if you look at
the design, and you will say, well, you can see that it's
intended to be a tree that grows out, and that these are the leafs.
Yes, if you are about a thousand feet in the air looking down,
if you are standing around it, it is a boldus formless, shapeless
thing that is spattered for no apparent reason with these strange shapes that look like
sevens or inverted elves or something like that. And I couldn't figure out what
they were. They're all over the place. They're like a strange barnacle that
fastened to the building. So we go inside and it's brutalist. It's it's
a brutalist bill. It literally is raw concrete. You can see it everywhere,
unadorned. It's the sort of thing that you can just I mean,
it looks like what the who are relieving their bladders on and the Who's next
cover album. It's awful. You go to this door that takes you up
this this meandering staircase, so you go and see your parliamentary people at work.
And instead of I mean, I'd just been to Holyroot, I'd just
been to you know, other beautiful buildings, and I'd seen that even the
humblest of spaces elevated the soul, embigned your sense of glory, that the
smallest, most reasonable buildings, commercial or otherwise had an element of uplift to
it. They said that we're going to gather together the spirit of humanity in
this doorframe. What you get in the Scottish Parliament is an unadorned, concrete,
dank little thing through which you have to pass, and it makes you
feel as though you are just nothing but a gnat, that the great stony
finger of the state is going to come down to crush. But at least
they explain what the things on the outside of the building are. They have
a keith. Here's this shape, it means this. Here's this shape,
it means this. And I found a strange seven inverted l whatever the hell
this thing was, and it is a abstract representation of a skating minister meant
to meant to connote motion, joy forward movement. Well, well, no,
no, no, no, I know what painting they're talking about.
I had seen it the day before in the museum. I'd literally been staring
because I know the painting before I saw it, and I'm looking at it
as I'm happy to meet an old friend in person. How are you.
I'm looking at this painting. It's having a wry sense of amusement at its
composition, and it's and then I'm thinking, I just saw this thing,
and it never occurred to me looking at your building, that these shapes movement
to be an example of that. If you failed with me, you failed
with absolutely everybody. And if we have, thanks to Donald Trump, a
new architectural standard that once again speaks to the deep roots of the culture and
the country in all of the antecedents. You know what, I don't give
a rats pitute about steel tabs, But I remember Churchill's famous line about architecture.
First we shape our buildings, and then our buildings shape us. And
by the way, it's worth reading the whole speech where he lays out why
Parliament has to be rebuilt exactly the way it was after the Germans bombed in
the war. And so yeah, if you get brutalist architecture for your a
parliament building, I think there probably is a connection with our brutalist politics that
have come along at the same time. Wrapping it up there, Steve,
good for you. Well, before we go, a couple of things.
One I'm going to Rob. You want to tell him about the meet up,
So we just should tell him to go to ricochet dot com and see
if I go to riche do com. We got a couple of meetups one
last week of July. We have one scheduled in Saint Louis early October.
There are plenty slots left. He's joined Ricochet, or come to a meetup,
or just join Ricochet and tell people you want to meet up at a
certain time and place and people will show up. I would be remiss if
I did not give Rob the opportunity to tell some delightful little Hollywood anecdote about
Bob NewART, who's passing. We deeply lament since he was an incredibly you
don't want to say influential. I don't want to replay his krusty eulogy,
but it was hard to know if he influenced anybody. It was in very
subtle ways because his his ability to style was so unique and so wonderful.
Yeah yeah, I mean I think unfortunately he didn't influence enough people because he
was a really he was a genius and he and he was just a pure
economy this guy. Uh never no movement, no no line, no eyebrow
move nothing was out of it. All was just the perfect timing. He
sort of invented it in a lot of ways. And he has the people
who don't know, I'm like younger people like he did this trademark stammer,
he did the button down Mine of Bob Newhart was the biggest selling album and
biggest selling comedy album and it remained that way I think until the the eighties
or something. I mean, he just was the number one and and it
was just him having a one way phone call. Uh and with the variety
of things are one way conversation, and it's unbelievably brilliant. It's sort of
Will Rogers Mark Twain kind of level of genius. And he and he had
a way of talking that was really his way. Although it had had you
know, become more of a signature, and I just will tell he he
I don't think he told me the story because we worked, we did a
show together. But I think his son told me the story. I know
he made he told his story that he's at. You know, he said,
my kids, you know, they don't even listen to this. Only
the oldest one served my albums. The youngest is youngest daughter, Courtney.
He's this wonderful, wonderful person. Uh she you know, she's she's too
young. She didn't really know what he did. And they're at Thanksgiving dinner
in his house, his beautiful house and Bellair having Thanksgiving, and he's telling
the story to the kids. He's saying, and you know, he's trying
to tell a story about when he was growing up. And his his daughter,
youngest daughter, Courtney, says, Dad, can you talk faster?
And he said, no, Courtney did this is the way I talk.
I talked, and and then he gestured the house into the and that is
why we we have these things. It's because this is how I talk.
And just like he nailed it, like and and it was you could you
could imitate it, but you couldn't catch whatever that little spark was inside him
that made it funny, so you could you could repeat word for word with
the same number of pauses everything he said, and for some reason was missing
the soul and and uh, he was just the He was the greatest.
He was the greatest, and an incredibly nice guy to work with and very
very thoughtful with the writers. But every now and then he would come up
to you and say things like, can can we just give somebody else this
line? Or or can I just not say anything in the scene. The
star of the show rarely makes that request, but he's like, I don't
really, I don't know. I feel like you gave me a line for
no reason. I could just stand there. This isn't mind stay there.
He was like, yeah, I'll just stand there behind the desk, or
stand there at the table, or's all just stand there like that's what I
do. I'm fine and like to have a star of that level that magnitude
actively lobbying for less was kind of a gift. Was he responsible for the
greatest ending of any sitcom series well conceived? I can tell you what I
think he remembers it that he had come up with it, and he might
have. However, I worked with a very, very very talented writer who
had been a young writer on New Heart before he became a young writer on
Cheers and was there when I was there, and years before the end of
New Heart, he said that he had pitched this idea once in the room
and they all kind of laughed. So somehow the idea was out there.
And I won't give it away because some people don't know it. But it's
a great ending to it. But but I remember Bob was telling me like
it was a great ending. Everybody loved it. The only problem was it
was extremely painful and emotionally damaging to the woman playing his wife in the second
series, who felt like because she knew she never she had never measured up
to zample set Well. I was just going to say, yeah, the
entire thing may just be if you have that much power in Hollywood, the
ability to get back in bed wizards. But there we end for the week
and Stephen, it's you anything. Yeah, I've just said we're ending,
all right, Stevens still here? You got anything you want to say?
No? All right? Been a pleasure. As ever, this was episode
number seven hundred. How did we get him? Only because Ricochet is fun
and once you go there, if you have not gone there yet, uh
just discovering this podcast, I entirely possible, go there and you will find
the place you've been looking for all your life. On the Internet. Seriously,
not Facebook, not Twitter, not x not Instagram, not The Talks,
no Sane Center, civil conversations and crazy. Sometimes elbows are throwing,
pans are hurled at heads, but it's all part of a community that we
love. The member feed, that's where it's at. And yeah, you
got to cop up a couple of shekels to get there, but it's worth
every single one of them. Go to iTunes if you wouldn't like is there
still an iTunes no music podcast whatever Apple's calling it? Give us five stars?
Would it kill you? Wouldn't kill you? And join us next week
when who knows, maybe Ann will be back. I have this horrible feeling
that actually she doesn't know that she was disconnected and that she was answering our
She's been answering our question for the last forty seven minutes, so much knowing
her would be possible, and it would be hilariously funny anyway to listen to.
So if there's a lost recording of Ann's reply in forty seven minutes.
We'll be putting it out as an extra bonus adjunk podcast. Gentlemen. That's
it for me, I except to note that Bob Newhart's second album was recorded
here partially in Minneapolis. Thank you very much. Mat. That's it.
We'll see you later, and we'll see you in the comments, said Ricochet
four point zero. Next week, Fellos Ricochet join the conversation