Welcome to episode sixty nine of Get It Alive, a bi weekly podcast about
animal tax why they happen, and how we can avoid them. I'm your
host, Ashley, and I'm your other host, Nick, and welcome to
our first episode of twenty twenty four Pooh, Episode sixty nine. Hell yeah,
yeah, sorry that we took a break. Not sorry that we took
a break. No, it felt really good. I'm not gonna lie.
This is I always wanted to be like a fun thing for us to do,
and it was getting to a point where it felt overwhelming in like a
chore, and I definitely needed the break. And now we're starting to back
up when you're going into your master's and starting a new job. Yeah,
what better time, right, and also coming off of a cold our version
of fun for sure. So once again, sorry for that impromptu break.
And also, by now, if you are an expert survivalist of ours on
Patreon, you should have your final gift from twenty twenty three, Angela,
you don't have it. It's in my closet right now. It will get
it to at some point. Yeah, so sorry, Angela. Wait this
year you will have that calendar. You have my word half of it might
not be useful anymore, but you know you're gonna get the calendar though,
Okay, love you. We originally were gonna make this episode a wrap up
of attacks that happened in twenty twenty three, and then I got into such
a tangent immediately that I'm got angry right away. Oh it's super. This
is this whole episode is like an angry tangent of mine. It's still relevant.
I promise we're still going to talk about animal attacks, but I thought
this was so important that it deserved its own episode. So our bonus episode
on Patreon this month will be twenty twenty three wrap up of attacks that we
didn't get to talk about in twenty twenty three, some good ones. And
I've also accidentally like started a theme for like the next four episodes that we
have. Yeah, they're all tied together. We have two amazing guests that
we're talking to this upcoming week, like the week that this episode's being released,
and there is a loose theme, but there's a theme there for sure.
So to start, let's talk about the Endangered Species Act, because that
is the crux of this episode. So I thought we could start by going
over what the Endangered Species Act is. So I know that we've talked about
it on this podcast before, but I don't know how in depth we've gone.
I won't feel on tell you I got no clue, all right,
So, as a reminder, the Endangered Species Act was established in December of
nineteen seventy three, and according to the US Fish and Wildlife Service, our
federal wildlife agency, it quote establishes protections for fish, wildlife, and plants
that are listed as threatened or endangered. It provides for adding species to and
removing them from the list of threatened endangered species, and for preparing and implementing
plans for their recovery. And it provides the land necessary for the survival of
the species that should be designated as critical habitat. And for short, it's
called the ESA, and the ESA also makes it illegal to import, export,
take, possess, sell, or transport any endangered or threatened species.
And taking a listed species can include destruction of that critical habitat. Oh no
shit, Yeah, But of course, like anything in the government, there
are exceptions. So one would be an experimental population, which we will talk
about as an example, and a little bit incidental take by federal actions is
also an exception. Oh so it's okay, the federal government does it.
But okay, sorry, siy psyche. Of course. Always another exception is
national security issues, hardship cases, possession of a pre existing historical item,
and certain actions by Alaskan natives. Oh that makes sense. Actually, yeah.
And there was also an amendment in nineteen seventy eight that created the God
Squad, which is literally what the group is called. It's composed of seven
members from high up in the federal government and they're probably named that because they
have the quote authority to allow extinction given a set of circumstances. Interesting,
okay, yeah, so that's a lot. I'm assuming we have very educated
and well versed people in these positions. God you hope, so right,
I really hope. So yeah. And it's so it's a group of seven
people and it needs to be basically a five to two vote. So oh
wow, so let something get go extinct. Yeah, to basically past anything.
Damn wow. Cool. Actually that's I like that system. Yeah.
So I mentioned that the ESA allows an exception for an experimental population, and
that example is what drove me to do this entire episode because on Monday,
December eighteenth, Colorado Parks and Wildlife released five wolves into state owned land in
Grand County. Did you hear about this? Cool? I think it was
definitely mentioned when it happened. I think we talked about it, like personally,
me and you. I think so, yeah, yeah, okay,
it's a huge dep so that we're friends that happens. So days after those
five wolves were released, they released five more, for a total of ten
wolves released into Colorado so far. And we're recording this as of January seventh,
twenty twenty four, so there's ten wolves that have been released. And
this is following a statewide ballot from twenty twenty that basically asked voters like,
do you want wolves in Colorado? And this is the first time that there
will be like officially wolves in Colorado since they were eradicated in the nineteen forties.
Damne. Yeah. So, if you're not familiar with the plight of
wolves in the US, here is a quick recap according to the US fishon
Wildlife Service. It's quite sad. Yeah, it's a bummer. I know
you've talked about wolves plenty of times in this podcast, but this is a
super quick recap so in nineteen seventy eight, the gray wolf was classified as
endangered at the species level throughout the contiguous United States in Mexico except for gray
wolves in Minnesota, which were classified as threatened, so they were doing like
bet basically than the rest of the country, and the Northern Rocky Mountains population
was delisted due to recovery in twenty eleven, except for Wyoming, which was
delisted in twenty seventeen, and everyone threw a huge stink about that for like,
oh, well, I guess depending on who you are, good reasons
they're not. So remaining wolf populations in the contiguous US were delisted due to
recovery in twenty twenty one, which people also were like what the fuck.
But following up February tenth, twenty twenty two court order, gray wolves in
the contiguous forty eight states and Mexico, with the exception of the Northern Rocky
Mountain population, are now protected under the ESA again, and they're still considered
threatened in Minnesota and endangered in the remaining states, So they got some protections
back. So how did they get taken I'm assuming there's a hard line,
like these are the numbers that have to meet. These are the populations that
got the meat to be taken off this list. How did they get taken
off if they met if they didn't meet those expeentations? How they get put
back on if they do? You know what I mean? Like that was
the tricky thing. So twenty seventeen was during the Trump administration, and this,
Okay, I also want to say, like this is going to be
a pretty political episode. We're not going to throw around like how Nick and
I feel about certain things, like we have our own opinions, but that's
not why we're here. Uh So, Anyways, that was during the Trump
administration, And how do I put this in a way that is not bad?
A lot of don't care about the environment that much. Yeah, a
lot of Republican leaning people tend to not like wolves. If a lot of
if they side with like a lot of ranchers, because rangers historically do not
like wolves. That's a generalization, of course, But so they argued that
like wolves hit the target numbers, so therefore, like as soon as you
hit target numbers, you should be taken off. But it's so hard to
say that because like, okay, where are these wolves located? Do you
have enough in certain areas that will allow them to persist there? Do you
have enough space to allow for more wolves once their populations continue? Like,
are they stable enough that when they get taken off of the endangered species list?
Will people immediately hunt them back to New York stinction? Yeah? Yeah,
yeah, that's what people were arguing, like, yeah, we might
have hit the base number for like what we need, but will that be
enough when people immediately start blasting them? You know? So yeah, I
mean you have to be you have to work very closely whoever's making the hunting
regulations for states too, Like I would imagine. Yeah, I'm just like
that would just makes sense, Like you don't want to release ten wolves in
Colorado and then have ten people go shoot them, Like this wouldn't make any
sense. Uh huh. So let's get into that. So these wolves that
were released in Colorado were all from packs in Oregon, and they were all
adults above twenty months in age, and they plan to release five more adult
wolves by March, for a total of fifteen reintroduced wolves, but their goal
within the next two to three years in Colorado is to introduce thirty to fifty
wolves. Cool, So here's their plan. Quote wolves are state endangered.
Wolves will be downlisted from State Endangered Phase one to State Threatened Phase two when
CPW SOO Colorado Park Wildlife Biologists document a minimum wintertime count of fifty wolves anywhere
in the state for four successive years. Wolves will be delisted from the State
Threatened and Endangered Species list and classified as delisted non game Phase three when a
minimum count of at least one hundred and fifty wolves anywhere in Colorado is observed
for two successive years, or a minimum count of at least two hundred wolves
anywhere in Colorado is observed. So two hundred is the goal. Seems low?
Yeah, I guess depending see because Colorado is a big state obviously,
but when you consider where they have space to go, that's the hard part.
Oh yeah, and a pack takes up like a lot of territory,
so you can't have multiple packs run around top and so other. It just
wouldn't work exactly. Also, if you're watching this video on Patreon, because
you can watch full length videos for just like a dollar a month on patroon
dot com. Slash CAADAC podcasts, now gonn be looking down at my phone
because I was trying to read notes off my laptop and my computer just crashed.
So just the pace that you needed, that's all that crashed. Yep,
I had two tabs open and it was not okay with that. Tough.
Gotta love Microsoft Services. So there have actually been quite a few confirmed
sightings of wolves in Colorado in the past decade as well, including seeing a
breeding pair with pups in twenty twenty one, which was the first pair to
breed in the state in eighty years. Damn. So, as you can
imagine, because of the way that wolves have been villainized in the US,
which we've talked about a bunch of times before, Yeah, many people in
Colorado have been threatening the wolves the second that they have been released, and
an initial complaint from the ranchers and people who would actually live with their wolves
are being reintroduced was that people in places like Denver and Boulder, Colorado would
volte yes on the ballots to have wolves just to be like, oh my
god, we lived in a state with wolves, but people that actually lived
out with them did not want them back, essentially, and they were a
set that so many people in the cities had sway over whether or not the
wolves were going to be reintroduced, which I can understand how that is frustrating.
But also men are allowed to vote a women's rights to have abortions,
so I feel like we should shock it up to democracy. Wow. Yeah,
we're not sharing reviews on politics this episode. I'm just saying likes.
And we already have laws that are set in place for pritors that attack farmers
animals like those already exist. Yeah, that's gonna be a big topic in
this episode. Boy. Yeah, So Colorado Parks and Wildlife CPW is able
to help landowners, especially ranchers, with hazing wolves away from livestock and defending
livestock against wolves. And some methods include, but are not limited to,
carcass management, physical barriers like fencing or electrified fencing, guard animals, auditory
and visual scare tactics like flagging lights and sirens, and increased human presence slash
vigilance. So they're going to put up loves of you're fencing for every farmer
in the state. If you are having a problem with wolves, well,
you're not gonna have a problem with wolves until you have a problem with wolves.
Like it's already be too late by the time that you do that.
So what's their plan to help people once the wolf show up? Oh god,
I mean that's how it works here in New Hampshire. Like, if
you're having a problem with a bear, we're not going to help you until
it happens, because why would we waste resources if there's no problem. I'm
with you, I totally agree. I'm just from their point of view.
Yeah, that's fair. And killing a wolf in Colorado is only allowed if
someone encounters a wolf actively killing their livestock or if the wolf is trying to
kill you. Of course. Okay, so it's on your land, you
can't shoot it. You just have to chin all it is literally on a
cow trying to kill it. Yeah, and if lethal control is used during
a depredation event, a permit must be issued and an investigation by CPW would
determine whether there is proof of either of these instances occurring at all. Wait,
you have to get a permit before you can shoot the animal that's attacking
your cow. So basically what that means is like because you can do the
same thing here in New Hampshire. You can get a depredation permit for like
a bear out of season for example. Right, So an example that would
be in our state would be a black bear going after your corn or your
live stock, and you have proof that it's happening, so the state is
like, Okay, here's a permit. You can do it next time they
come on your property. So if a wolf is actively killing livestock, like
you find it on a cow, you can shoot it. But if it
kills a cow, you didn't catch it in time, but you're like,
it was definitely a wolf, and then CPW comes out and they're like,
yeah, this was a wolf and it keeps happening, they can give you
a permit. So here's a scenario. Wolf attacks cow, cow dies,
farmer never sees wolf do it, but tracks bites everything. You can tell
it's a wolf. Wolf is fifty feet away on a hill somewhere, not
on your cow. You're not allowed to shoot it. No, I can
see it actively. I can see where people will get upset. That's the
law, baby, I know, I get. I'm not argue. I'm
just siding to see how people would get upset about this. So without a
permit, killing a gray wolf remains punishable by fines up to one hundred thousand
dollars, jail time, and loss of hunting privileges. However, the big
concern for these wolves in Colorado currently besides because you know, obviously, people
in Colorado if you're a ranchers like you know the rules and shit. So
that's that. But the big issue is if these wolves cross into Wyoming,
because although wolves are protected right now in Colorado, this shocked me. This
is why this is an entire episode. Apparently, in Wyoming. I don't
know if you knew this, there is a predator zone that is a fifty
three million acre area you are able to shoot on site with no license or
bag limits. Really, so if you're like me and you don't hunt wolves
or live in Wyoming, you probably have never heard of this. But after
some digging through the hy Domain Game Fish Department rules and laws, I found
the following quote. Gray wolves located in Hunt Area twelve are designated as trophy
game animals from October fifteenth through the last day of February and the subsequent year,
but the hunting season shall end on December thirty first, or when the
mortality limit has been reached, whichever occurs first. Gray wolves located in Hunt
Area twelve are designated as predatory animals from March first through October fourteenth, that's
most of the year, and during this time period may be taken without a
license. And if you kill a wolf as a predatory animal, here are
the requirements following its death. Any person who takes a gray wolf designated as
a predatory animal shall be required to report the kill to a district game warden,
wildlife bilogist, or department personnel at Game and Fish Department Regional office within
ten days after the date the gray wolf was killed. The person shall be
required to provide their name and address, the date the gray wolf was killed,
the sex of the gray wolf, and the location of the kill site.
And any person taking a gray wolf designated as a predatory animal where an
electronic radio tracking device s, I'll surrender the device to the department when registering
a gray wolf in accordance with registration dates. All right, it all makes
sense. Yeah, And I will add a number to our episode description that
is the Wyoming Game and Fish Anti Poaching Line. I'll just say it now,
so the number is one eight seven seven wg FD TIP and in state
that's three oh seven seven seven seven four three three zero or you could text
the keyword WGFD and any message to tip four to one one or eight four
seven four one one. Nice. Yeah. Now, there is a sixty
mile buffer zone between Colorado and Wyoming, but wolves travel, So the concern
is that when the populations start to increase, they will start to seek,
like new wolves will start to seek their own territories, and that's when they
might cross over to Wyoming and just get decimated. An example of this,
remember when I said earlier that there was a breeding pair of wolves in Colorado
in twenty twenty one. Yes, at least one of those wolves crossed into
Wyoming and was legally shot in that predatory zone, and it became a mess
because neither Wyoming nor Colorado state officials would confirm the kill, and Wyoming officials
refused to give Colorado their reports because quote, they don't have the right to
know. Do they not have the rights to know? Is it legally binding?
Well, let me tell you. According to a twenty twelve statute in
Wyoming, quote, information identifying any person legally taking a wolf within this state
is solely for the use of the Department or appropriate law enforcement officers and is
not public record. Good I like that. No, So this not only
affects what information Game and Fish shares with the public, but also what it
shares with federal agencies and RESEARCHERSKA and Wyoming Game and Fish Department officials say they
can't share anything more specific than the aggregate number of wolves that have been killed
in the predator Zone, an area that covers eighty five percent of Wyoming.
So if a wolf dies outside of their normal range in southern Wyoming, even
the general region of the killing is considered confidential. Damn, that's very secretive.
Yeah, So there are currently lawsuits going on about the statute, specifically
because some lawyers are like, you can redact names and still you have an
obligation to release this information, especially because there was a rancher from an article
I found in the area who said, quote, this valley is full of
hunters, and boy, it'd be a pretty smart wolf to make it in
this valley. Everybody here drives around with a rifle in their pickup because that's
the culture. And even more frustrating is normally you can file a Freedom of
Information Act requests like a FOYA in the US, to see government reports and
investigations about things like this like wolf killings. But if the state leaves the
investigation about wolf deaths open, you cannot get any information on it because it's
currently like an active case and they only give you information on closed cases.
That's shady. I don't like that. Yeah, so that's kind of the
point. It's like they're trying to say, oh, well, people who
might kill wolves, like we don't want them to get death threats for killing
wolves, which is fair, but they're being so secretive about it, and
the fact that there's like no between state cooperation and you know how I mentioned
that all the wolves in Colorado are from Oregon. Yeah, from what I've
seen, because Wyoming and Montana didn't want to give any wolves to Colorado because
they didn't support the reintroduction. Wow. Interesting states that have wolves already.
Yeah, there's a lot of like shitty interstate politics going on. Well,
I mean, shout, we listen to that though. The states that have
the wolves are telling a state that want wolves, no, you don't shoon't
we listen to the people that have experience with them. I think it really
depends on who's in charge, of course, of course. Yeah, so
I also don't want this to come off as like me sounding like I don't
care about the plight of ranchers. I completely, which is why I'm trying
to play the middle here, which is why I'm actively trying to go be
in the middle of this. Yeah, and I hope that people who are
listening to understand Nick's not saying this because he's like, fuck these wolves,
Like I like wolves, I would like more wolves. Yeah, we're here
to give you information see all sides. We're not necessarily trying to. I
mean, I'm kind of taking aside, but like when trying to remain as
neutral as possible, and I understand that, like, if you're a rancher
and you have hundreds of cattle and barely any people to manage them, you're
like constantly defending against predators, which is hard, and without farmers we wouldn't
have food. I obviously I'm very pro farmer, so just to remain as
neutral as I can. For example, there was a ranch in Jackson County
in Colorado that in twenty twenty two was experiencing depredation on their cattle by wolves,
and it started in December of twenty twenty one when wolf number two one
zero one injured or killed seven of this rancher's cows, including a calf,
and then six of his neighbor's cows and several of his neighbors working dogs.
What the fuck? Yeah? And then another wolf number two one zero three
killed a few lambs at a nearby ranch. So this was like an ongoing
problem and these people aren't allowed to kill wolves on their land. You can
see why that would be aggravator for these people. Well, also this was
before the release, so back then under the Colorado Wolf Management Plan, well,
a rancher could kill a wolf if they discovered it quote chronically depredating their
livestock or in self defense of a human life, but it was up to
officials to decide what chronically depredating meant, and in this case, they decided
they would not lethally remove the wolves, which is what the rancher was asking,
because there was a change in pack dynamics that caused the wolves to leave
the area. So they did leave and the depredation stopped, but for almost
a year it was like a thing that they were constantly fighting against. And
of course the ranchers were rightfully frustrated because they'd been trying so many methods of
like non lethal harassment. So they bought donkeys, they bought horned cattle to
try to defend their other cattle. They tried flagging, they tried crackershells,
so like you know, you shoot, it's kind of like a firework almost,
And they also spent every night with their cattle for months, outside with
their fucking cows for months. And for this rancher specifically, they work on
eleven thousand acres, but it's just a married couple running it, so they
don't have the manpower to protect all their cattle all the time. And when
they attended meetings with CPWS to Colorado parks in my life, they also claim
to be understaffed, so they were like, sorry, we can't help you
more. We are overrun as it is ourselves as an agency. So in
cases like that, I can totally emphasize with the ranchers and understand that,
like they say that they're going to help you, and then you're experiencing this
problem and you're not getting the help that you need because they're understaffed, and
it's Colorado's a big fucking state. And I will say two of the wolves
taken from Oregon have killed cattle in the past two years, So that is
a big concern. I'm not even against the the wolves killing the cow that's
going to happen, like that is going to happen, but it's if the
state's going to be introducing them, they have to have some kind of obligation
to the people who live in the areas. So according to a twenty fifteen
report by the United States Department of Agriculture aka the USDA, in twenty fifteen,
ninety eight percent of adult cattle deaths and eighty nine percent of calf deaths
were not caused by predators. Okay, so ninety eight of adults and eighty
nine percent of calfs, so like baby cows, died from not predatory things.
So the highest cause of deaths in adult and calves was respiratory illness,
so that was twenty three point nine and twenty six point nine percent, respectively.
And in this twenty fifteen report, it said that fifty three point one
percent of predatory deaths, so deaths cause by predators to calves were caused by
coyotes, which shocked me. And forty point five percent of predatory deaths to
adult cattle were attributed to coyotes as well, so, like I said,
eighty nine percent of baby calves were not killed by predators, so that means
only eleven percent of calves died due to predators of literally millions of deaths,
but fifty basically percent of those were from coyotes, So fifty percent of the
eleven percent. There's a lot of numbers, I apologize. So following coyotes,
twelve point four percent of predatory cause deaths on calves were attributed to unknown
predators, and then vultures made up ten point three percent. Really, that
also shocked me. Interesting, and for adult cattle, fifteen point eight percent
of predatory deaths were caused by unknown predators, followed eleven point three percent dogs.
Nowhere in there if you noticed, did I relay a statistic about wolves
killing cattle? No, So dogs statistically are more likely to kill cattle than
wolves, which that makes sense because like, dogs are everywhere, and of
course I listed to unknown press which could include wolves. But like basically it
was, we have no evidence as to what specifically this is because it's as
it is super hard to prove what animal killed what thing. So this was
the most up to date report of its kind that I could find. Released
by the USDA. So that was twenty fifteen. Obviously it's twenty twenty four
now, so things might have changed. But in this report, the USDA
is admitting that wolves do not make up a significant amount of predatory cattle related
deaths overall in the US. Keep that in mind as we go forward.
Well, there's also not many wolves around right now. They're trying to introduce
more wolves, which would mean more deaths of cattle. But you could also
argue because wolves as a top predator drive out coyotes and maybe dogs, that
there could also be less deaths from those animals, so it might also equal
out. Oh yeah, So I also want to take a moment to point
out here that the report only spoke of cows, right, so we're not
even talking about like goats, sheep, pigs, anything else. In twenty
nineteen alone, dogs killed over ten thousand sheep in the US. Yeah,
it's actually a low number you think about it. It's a ten thousand that
shocked me. It's a lot of freaking sheep out there. So admittedly,
the US does not have a lot of great insight into how much damaged dogs
actually do to livestock. Because it makes sense wildlife agencies don't consider free roaming
or like feral dogs to be wildlife, so there's not really a department that's
overseeing damage that dogs are doing. But other countries such as Brazil and Italy
have looked into this, and the numbers there are staggering of like how much
damaged dogs actually due to livestock. And not only are dogs killing livestock,
but they attack and kill endangered species covered by the ESA as well. And
a huge example of this is people letting their dogs run off leash on beaches
and then the dogs go up in the sand dunes and eat the eggs of
ground nesting birds like clovers, or eat the adults themselves. So let this
also be a PSA please for the love of God to keep your dog on
a leash on the beach so they don't destroy endangered species things general. And
I know I'm harping on this a lot, like this whole dog thing and
like trying to kind of steer it away from wolves being like at Fall for
killing cattle, but I want to like stick this point in people's heads about
dogs, because consider the reason that people hate coyotes and wolves. A lot
of people are like well, the way that they kill animals is cruel,
and that's what I've heard a lot of like my family members say, who
don't like coyotes. They're like, oh, well, I watch them like
tear apart deer and it's awful. But wolves and coyotes, like the only
weapon they have is their mouths, so they have to run and tear bits
off of animals or like grab them to kill them. Right, what a
weird thing to be concerned about. Yeah, well, I mean if you
watch like a pack of wolves tear apart and animal that's like alive as they're
tearing it apart, I can see why you'd be like, wow, that's
fucked up, Like those things suck, you know what I mean. But
if you hate wolves and coyotes for that reason, consider that dogs also kill
things that way, but worse because they don't have the same instincts as their
wild counterparts. Reports of dogs killing livestock are usually like especially gruesome and awful
for whoever comes upon them, because the animals are just like fucking torn apart
and they don't know how to kill a thing. They know tear apart and
eat, sure, but they don't know how to actually kill something. Yeah,
and their instincts, you know, if you're gonna hate on wolves coyotes
like dogs. Also, not that I'm saying we should hate dogs. I
fucking love my dogs, but like, what are the the laws about killing
a dog that's attacking your cattle or that you find on your land. So
that's a great question I would assume would be the same thing where like if
you find them actually doing damage. I mean I know of a case around
me where this guy had some chickens. A dog that continually attacked his chickens
came attacked chickens one day and he shot it, And even the owner was
like, yeah, that's on me, Like I let my dog attack your
chickens and you shot it. So sorry legal ramifications for that. I think
if they're actively doing damage, if you can kill wildlife that's actually doing damage,
I can imagine you can kill a dog for you know what I say
that, please look into your local state. Check check on that, check
on that interesting. But that's a good point, right, Like dogs are
such a big gray area for a lot of states because who manages them.
You know, we've talked for a while, so let's finally get into animal
attacks. Because that's what this podcast is about, baby, and we're gonna
go for dogs because there's a community in Ansa, California. Do you know
where that is? Have you heard? No? So in this town in
California, dogs have become a huge problem. There's packs of free roaming dogs
that regularly slaughter livestock, including one group that included three lab mixes, two
blue heelers, and a husky that killed an entire herd of goats and sheep.
Jesus. And in December of twenty eighteen, a fifty four year old
woman named Angela Johnson was hanging laundry in her yard in Ansa, California,
when three loose pit bulls attacked her and she was airlifted to a trauma center,
but died two months later in twenty nineteen due to her injuries. Fuck.
And so this has been for years an ongoing problem, and the police
officers there like trying to tell people, hey, please spay and neuter your
pets and don't just dump them. But like it hasn't really gotten better,
and there's continually like more and more dog attacks coming out of that area.
It's rough. Well that was that rough? Oh No, it was real.
That was bad. That was bad. Also, if you listen to
a bonus eisode, I'm going to talk a lot more about dog attacks from
twenty twenty three as well, because there's a lot there is a lot of
them. Statistically, dog attacks, sorry, specifically deaths from dog attacks is
increasing in the last few years, which is really concerning. But anyways,
back to wolves, because the reintroduction of wolves and Coltto is not the only
recovery plan in place for wolves in the US, and it's not the only
one that has faced backlash because in twenty twenty two, a whistleblower with the
USDA Wildlife Services confirmed that members of New Mexico Wildlife Services were illegally calling Mexican
wolves and were quote confirming depredation reports for ranchers that ask them to so that
the wolves could be lethally removed. And also, I've been saying depredation a
lot, so just to clear that up, that means the act of attacking
or plundering, so they call it like depredation. Okay, gotcha. So
for a bit of background, Mexican wolves were reintroduced to New Mexico in nineteen
ninety eight and since then, if you're not familiar with the us or not
familiar with Wildlife Services in general. The USDA has a branch called the Animal
Plant Health Inspection Service, and then under that, which is APHIS, So
under APHIS there's Wildlife Services and Wildlife Services. The whole point is like dealing
with wildlife that is harming agriculture essentially, that's the easiest way to put it
right. So Wildlife Services was given orders to remove two hundred and six Mexican
wolves since nineteen ninety eight, so since the reintroduction, even though the highest
count of Mexican wolves in the wild ever since then was only one hundred and
ninety six and twenty twenty one Jesus, Yeah, those reports are being kept
from the federal agency that was doing the reintroducing of the wolves. I don't
know why the US makes our government so complicated, but checks and balances.
Yeah, yeah, So the people that were working on this Mexican wolf reintroduction
had no idea that these depredation things were really happening, and they couldn't look
into it because they weren't getting their reports. But when they finally did see
the reports, they confirmed that the depredation reports were erroneous, meaning that New
Mexican Wildlife Services employees were illegally killing these endangered wolves. In one report,
a wolf kill was confirmed using only a month old piece of hide from a
cow which was soaked and stretched before the inspector took its measurements. It's kind
of dumb, super dumb, doesn't make any sense. And in another case,
five dead calves in varying states of decomposition were submitted at once to basically
say that they were all killed by wolves, and all five were confirmed as
wolf kills. Damn yeah. In twenty twenty, an entire pack was destroyed
by Wildlife Services because they allegedly were killing lots of cattle, and the whistleblower
was the for like all of this illegal shit for the Mexican gray wolves.
The whistleblower was New Mexico's Wildlife Services state director, so he was in charge
of all of this, and he was actually fired due to quote complaints from
ranchers and also he kept trying to go above him and say like, hey,
I'm noticing this and like, I this is a problem when we do
about it, and people basically told him like, shut up about it,
so he ended up psuing the federal government and he won, but no action
was taken to address the actual corrupt livestock compensation that was happening. And also
like nothing was done about the wolf for removolves. So they're still doing this.
I don't know if it's still happening after this whole whistleblower thing, but
it it's been confirmed that these animals were not killed by wolves, Like it's
been confirmed that you could not confirm that it was wolves. Basically, so,
Mexican wolves are a subspecies of gray wolf, and they're actually smaller than
gray wolves that are like northern like the ones that we were just talking about
Colorado. So these wolves typically eatjvelinas and deer, and a model predicted that
if there were one hundred Mexican wolves, they would be expected to kill around
thirty four cattle annually, which is like not a small amount, I guess,
and most of that would be calves because once again they're smaller, so
they'd probably be killing the smaller cattle. Wild Services said they confirmed one hundred
and thirty three cattle kills by wolves. Damn. Yeah. These kills were
often confirmed by bite mark analysis. We've talked about bite mark analysis before,
because from what I've learned in my schooling for a wildlife forensics, bite mark
analysis is an art and experts have been known to misidentify even human bite marks.
So not only would it be hard to confirm a Mexican wolf specifically just
by their teeth, but the Mexican wolf range also overlaps with coyotes, dogs,
mountain lions, like, there's so many other things that could attack cattle,
So it's super hard to prove that it's this endangered wolf doing it where
there's only like a hundred of these wolves. How are they killing hundreds of
cattle and you're confirming it every time, you know what I mean? And
this is not to mention that reporting was frankly just terrible. And in some
cases the measurements of canine bites did not match with the photos taken at the
scene, so like there'd be a picture with measures of the bite marks,
and then the report would be written with like different numbers than actually what was
like physically there, which seems so crazy to me that you could take pictures
of it and then lie. Anyways, it could be the situation where the
hide got stretch and dried like something like that right. I mean, over
time, an animal is going to expand and contract after its death. But
you take pictures of the scene as you're investigating, and that's what you're write
in your report. You don't change the numbers based on the pictures that you
have. So according to the lead for the recovery team for Mexican wolves,
the agencies involved have never taken an active part in the wolf's recovery and it's
always been forced by litigation rather than like the state wants to do it,
if that makes sense. And even when within the recovery plan for Mexican gray
wolves, there are loopholes including quote the establishment of a boundary wolves would not
be permitted to cross, which like, how do you enforce that? Stupid?
And they designated the population non essential to the species survival. It's the
only one that we have in the US. What uh huh if they cross
this line, they get shot. Like that's just what they're they're saying,
that's what they're proposed. That's yep, part of the uh recovery plan because
basically, like this was people saying that they wanted this wolf rather than the
government taking the initiative. So they're like, well, give ourselves some back
doorways to get rid of them. If we have to, we want to
basically, and God forbid you are in the government and you speak up for
the wolves, because there always seems to be a huge overreaction, which was
the case for New Mexico Senator Martin Henrick, who called out the lack of
accountability and scientific integrity going on with this Mexican wolf recovery, like with Wildlife
Services and shit, which spurred the House of Representatives to introduce legislation to try
to take away the endangered species status from the Mexican wolves. This population of
Mexican wolves in New Mexico is literally the only wild population we have in the
US, and they wanted to take away designation from it after spending as a
country millions of dollars to reintroduce these wolves. Well, why aren't the people
of New Mexico asked about this before they did it? Then they must have
been right. I didn't look into this one as much as the Colorado thing
is. You have to be talking to the residents that live in these areas
and if they're so against it, like why are we doing it? Well,
so obviously like ranchers, but Also it's the government, like people in
the government in New Mexico that are who is what it is that? Well
you like to think, you like to think, you like to think,
yeah, yeah. And they've even had to start breeding Mexican wolves in captivity
and then put them into existing wolf dends because Wildlife Services has landed such a
big blow on their genetic diversity, Like these wolves are being reintroduced by the
Federal Fish and Wildlife Services, and Wildlife Services under the USDA is taking them
down a huge notch. It is insane how much like governmental bullshit is happening
to these wolves. Frankly, Yeah, and half of these Mexican wolves are
radio collared, to which one rancher told the head of their recovery project,
quote, we don't want them collared because then we can kill them if they
are not. So they're not allowed to kill the collared ones. Well,
they say, like if they're collared, because the scientists who have them collared
get regular pings on where the wolves are. So if a wolf has been
in the same spot for a day, it's pretty easy to go out there
and find it poached. But the ones that aren't collared, who's to say
and poaching, both by the USC Wildlife Services and ranchers, is the leading
cause of death for Mexican gray wolves Jesus, surpassed only by unsolved disappearances,
which spike when protections are lifted. In the first two decades of their recovery,
over one hundred Mexican wolves were illegally poached, but in twenty twenty two,
two pairs of Mexican wolves were released into Mexico in the Sierra Madre mountain
range, which brings the total of Mexican wolves in Mexico up to forty five,
which was thanks in part to the white Mountain Apache tribe that said very
early on that they wanted their predator back home. Nice. I don't know
when Mexico started reintroducing or whatever, but it seems they're more willing to have
them. I mean, they're also in a mountain range there, so maybe
there's like less ranching going on. But also the native people they are like,
hell, yeah, bring the wolves, which is the important part.
The people in the area want it, then absolutely the fucking do it.
But did you just have the people who live there are so against it,
like why what are you doing? Like it's never gonna work. Yeah,
but then it's like, so, what we let a species go extinct because
people don't like them? Well, no, you introduced them into the native
land where they can cow. Mexico is their native land. No, No,
that natives land that want them there in Mexico. Oh, like you
find the communities that want them, and the Colorado like they want the wolves.
They voted on the wolves. That's good, but only some people did,
the people that may not be living around the Jordy did, which is
the important part. Yeah, but we don't know what was voted back in
nineteen ninety eight and like how that went down with Mexican wolves though. Of
course, I just don't get how we got to this point as a country
where like, we fucking hate wolves so much, and we have government agencies
that are so willing to like secretly shoot them even though they're species that we've
spent millions of dollars on reintroducing. Yeah, no, that's that's insane.
I don't know what the fuck's going on there. So I mentioned up top
that I would also cover a case of someone killing a federally protected animal claiming
that they were attacked by it. So let's finally get into that. A
relevant case was recently revealed during investigation into the death of a grizzly bear.
In twenty fifteen, a marine was hunting in Wyoming's Shoshone Shoshone Shoshone I don't
know National Forest and he was hunting elk when he claimed a grizzly bear came
out of the brush and charged him. He recorded himself, including audio and
video, after the attack, in which he said things like I'm smoking him,
I don't want a big bear like that where I hunt, and this
is destiny. That bear attacked the wrong man. He then, as he
was recording, tracked down the grizzly he shot, found it dead, and
took selfies with it, and cut off one of its claws to keep as
a souvenir. The marine spent a few more nights in the woods hunting,
killed an elk, and then when he was done, finally reported the grizzly
death to the FEDS. However, the FEDS were by the time this guy
got back out and reported it, were already investigating this grizzly's death because someone
actually encountered this guy after the bear attack and noted that he had a claw
from the bear, oh, which is a violation of the Endangered Species Act.
So of course he claimed that the bear was attacking him and he killed
in self defense and he was quote happy for the experience and thought it was
pretty cool. He then admitted to investigators that he did not tag the elk
he killed during that trip because he was going to illegally use his tag in
another hunt. Oh nice. This marine had a previous warning from a wildlife
law enforcement officer for harming a kit fox, and on his phone that was
seized during this investigation were photos of the dead bear and the elk that he
poached, along with pictures of a bald eagle carcass that he claims he did
not kill, which I'll give you that by side, John, I'll take
a picture with two. I don't know. This guy was found guilty of
wasting an elk under Wyoming state law and had to pay a six hundred and
forty dollars fine, but a federal prosecutor declined to bring charges under the Endangered
Species Act, so this guy faced no consequences for desecrating a protected bear,
and the dismemberment of the bear was also apparently not enough for the US Attorney's
office to take the case, and because there was no direct witnesses and the
victim is a dead bear, it would be next to impossible to disprove his
case. So this guy, what I am gathering is if he wasn't actually
attacked by this bear, then he killed it because he didn't want around him
as he was hunting, and then said like, oh, it was attacking
me, because how is anyone going to prove it? Even though he had
like no sorts of cuts or anything on him, which I will say,
we have covered cases before where people are out hunting and a bear charges them,
they kill it in self defense. That's totally fair. But from what
this guy was saying and had done the past, it just seemed like it
was a little bullshit. Frankly, Yeah, I mean you had to get
charged for something for Stanley claw right, Like that is a straight up illegal
I don't understand that. How is he not getting kind of pusmory. I
don't understand that either. Yeah, that is super weird to me. I
don't know if I was was attacked by an animal, my first thought wouldn't
be like, oh man, I can remember this moment, let me chop
off piece of its foot. He's a marine. That makes sense. That
adds up. But yeah, so I want to throw that in there because,
like, I want to think that animals are really safe when they're on
the endangered species list. But it sucks that someone could be like, oh,
well, this wolf was trying to attack me, so I shot it.
Even if you just hate them, yeah, yeah, but you can't
prove it. You can't prove that he lot. It's just unless you have
the evidence, you can't. You can't charge someone if you can't prove it,
like it just is what it is. That's yeah, And the burden
of proof is always on the prosecutor. The defense is just to be like,
actually we didn't. They don't have to prove who did or what happened,
so silence will save you. So we covered a ton of ground here,
but before we go, I wanted to remind you all of this.
Twenty twenty four is an election year. Even if you hate your options for
presidential candidates, it is just as important, possibly even more important, that
you vote at the local and state level. Those people are supposed to represent
you. They make contacting them super inconvenient so that they don't have to be
inconvenienced by your opinions, but we vote them in. They work us,
So don't forget that when you vote for people. Vote for someone who gives
a shit about the wild world and make sure that they remember why we put
them there. That's it. Yeah, Hell, I just I don't know.
This episode maybe so angry and I'm just fucking mad about it. And
politics sucks. So vote people in that don't suck, right, that's at
least. Oh yeah, yeah, I guess I'll say. A resolution for
me for twenty twenty four is like, look more into who I'm voting for
and make sure that they care about the things that I care about, And
if they have a different opinion, write to them and be like, hey,
what's your Or if they haven't you said something that you care about,
be like, hey, what is your thoughts on this? Like how would
you handle this? Oh? Yeah, And especially if you're in a state
like Colorado, if you're in a state like New Mexico, New Hampshire,
we don't really have a ton of endangered species that people are like bitchy about.
Make sure you are voting for people who care and who will do the
work. If there's sketchy stuff going on. It's a big deal, that's
it. Oh yeah, So in our next episode, we're gonna be talking
about rescuing wildlife and the dangers that come along with it with an incredible guest.
So I guess like the theme for the next few episodes are like how
humans kind of harm animals and how we can stop doing that if possible,
which is kind of the flip of what this podcast is about. But we
still will talk about animal tax i promise. Hell yeah. Thank you all
so much for listening to episode sixty nine of Get a Live, Happy New
Year. We'll see you in two weeks with that episode I was just talking
about. But until then, you can find us on Instagram at gattleipod,
Facebook, Gatlife Podcast. Oh my god, what are all our socials?
It has been so long? Uh Twitter, I'm at the Angryologist. You
can find our website ata lifepodcast dot com. Everything's in the episode description on
check us on Patreon, where you can get the bonus episode that'll be our
wrap up twenty twenty three. Thank you so much Josh Watsh for making our
inter music. Thank you Jesse Walsh his brother for doing a lot of the
heavy lifting in the audio and video stuff. And yeah, we'll be back
in two weeks with a great guest. We'll see you then, Bruce,
Happy New Year,