1 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:18,879 Welcome to episode sixty nine of Get It Alive, a bi weekly podcast about 2 00:00:18,879 --> 00:00:21,960 animal tax why they happen, and how we can avoid them. I'm your 3 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:25,719 host, Ashley, and I'm your other host, Nick, and welcome to 4 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:30,160 our first episode of twenty twenty four Pooh, Episode sixty nine. Hell yeah, 5 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:35,079 yeah, sorry that we took a break. Not sorry that we took 6 00:00:35,079 --> 00:00:37,520 a break. No, it felt really good. I'm not gonna lie. 7 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:41,840 This is I always wanted to be like a fun thing for us to do, 8 00:00:42,079 --> 00:00:44,439 and it was getting to a point where it felt overwhelming in like a 9 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:48,439 chore, and I definitely needed the break. And now we're starting to back 10 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:51,920 up when you're going into your master's and starting a new job. Yeah, 11 00:00:52,039 --> 00:00:56,079 what better time, right, and also coming off of a cold our version 12 00:00:56,119 --> 00:01:00,439 of fun for sure. So once again, sorry for that impromptu break. 13 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:03,680 And also, by now, if you are an expert survivalist of ours on 14 00:01:03,799 --> 00:01:07,879 Patreon, you should have your final gift from twenty twenty three, Angela, 15 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:11,239 you don't have it. It's in my closet right now. It will get 16 00:01:11,239 --> 00:01:15,239 it to at some point. Yeah, so sorry, Angela. Wait this 17 00:01:15,359 --> 00:01:19,200 year you will have that calendar. You have my word half of it might 18 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,319 not be useful anymore, but you know you're gonna get the calendar though, 19 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:26,920 Okay, love you. We originally were gonna make this episode a wrap up 20 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:30,200 of attacks that happened in twenty twenty three, and then I got into such 21 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:34,959 a tangent immediately that I'm got angry right away. Oh it's super. This 22 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:40,200 is this whole episode is like an angry tangent of mine. It's still relevant. 23 00:01:40,239 --> 00:01:42,400 I promise we're still going to talk about animal attacks, but I thought 24 00:01:42,519 --> 00:01:47,239 this was so important that it deserved its own episode. So our bonus episode 25 00:01:47,239 --> 00:01:51,480 on Patreon this month will be twenty twenty three wrap up of attacks that we 26 00:01:51,519 --> 00:01:53,640 didn't get to talk about in twenty twenty three, some good ones. And 27 00:01:53,719 --> 00:02:00,599 I've also accidentally like started a theme for like the next four episodes that we 28 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:04,879 have. Yeah, they're all tied together. We have two amazing guests that 29 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:07,280 we're talking to this upcoming week, like the week that this episode's being released, 30 00:02:08,199 --> 00:02:12,919 and there is a loose theme, but there's a theme there for sure. 31 00:02:13,759 --> 00:02:17,680 So to start, let's talk about the Endangered Species Act, because that 32 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:25,439 is the crux of this episode. So I thought we could start by going 33 00:02:25,479 --> 00:02:29,360 over what the Endangered Species Act is. So I know that we've talked about 34 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:32,319 it on this podcast before, but I don't know how in depth we've gone. 35 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:36,599 I won't feel on tell you I got no clue, all right, 36 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:39,000 So, as a reminder, the Endangered Species Act was established in December of 37 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:43,560 nineteen seventy three, and according to the US Fish and Wildlife Service, our 38 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:47,879 federal wildlife agency, it quote establishes protections for fish, wildlife, and plants 39 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:52,960 that are listed as threatened or endangered. It provides for adding species to and 40 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:57,199 removing them from the list of threatened endangered species, and for preparing and implementing 41 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:00,719 plans for their recovery. And it provides the land necessary for the survival of 42 00:03:00,759 --> 00:03:07,240 the species that should be designated as critical habitat. And for short, it's 43 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,560 called the ESA, and the ESA also makes it illegal to import, export, 44 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:15,400 take, possess, sell, or transport any endangered or threatened species. 45 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:21,919 And taking a listed species can include destruction of that critical habitat. Oh no 46 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,520 shit, Yeah, But of course, like anything in the government, there 47 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:30,439 are exceptions. So one would be an experimental population, which we will talk 48 00:03:30,479 --> 00:03:36,520 about as an example, and a little bit incidental take by federal actions is 49 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:38,800 also an exception. Oh so it's okay, the federal government does it. 50 00:03:38,879 --> 00:03:44,560 But okay, sorry, siy psyche. Of course. Always another exception is 51 00:03:44,719 --> 00:03:49,759 national security issues, hardship cases, possession of a pre existing historical item, 52 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:54,759 and certain actions by Alaskan natives. Oh that makes sense. Actually, yeah. 53 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:59,400 And there was also an amendment in nineteen seventy eight that created the God 54 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,159 Squad, which is literally what the group is called. It's composed of seven 55 00:04:02,199 --> 00:04:05,960 members from high up in the federal government and they're probably named that because they 56 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:13,479 have the quote authority to allow extinction given a set of circumstances. Interesting, 57 00:04:13,639 --> 00:04:17,240 okay, yeah, so that's a lot. I'm assuming we have very educated 58 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,120 and well versed people in these positions. God you hope, so right, 59 00:04:20,439 --> 00:04:24,439 I really hope. So yeah. And it's so it's a group of seven 60 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:28,600 people and it needs to be basically a five to two vote. So oh 61 00:04:28,639 --> 00:04:32,680 wow, so let something get go extinct. Yeah, to basically past anything. 62 00:04:33,199 --> 00:04:36,800 Damn wow. Cool. Actually that's I like that system. Yeah. 63 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:41,680 So I mentioned that the ESA allows an exception for an experimental population, and 64 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:46,079 that example is what drove me to do this entire episode because on Monday, 65 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:51,079 December eighteenth, Colorado Parks and Wildlife released five wolves into state owned land in 66 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:55,439 Grand County. Did you hear about this? Cool? I think it was 67 00:04:55,439 --> 00:04:59,120 definitely mentioned when it happened. I think we talked about it, like personally, 68 00:04:59,199 --> 00:05:00,399 me and you. I think so, yeah, yeah, okay, 69 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:06,759 it's a huge dep so that we're friends that happens. So days after those 70 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:11,279 five wolves were released, they released five more, for a total of ten 71 00:05:11,319 --> 00:05:15,439 wolves released into Colorado so far. And we're recording this as of January seventh, 72 00:05:15,519 --> 00:05:17,560 twenty twenty four, so there's ten wolves that have been released. And 73 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:23,600 this is following a statewide ballot from twenty twenty that basically asked voters like, 74 00:05:23,639 --> 00:05:29,160 do you want wolves in Colorado? And this is the first time that there 75 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:32,399 will be like officially wolves in Colorado since they were eradicated in the nineteen forties. 76 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:38,439 Damne. Yeah. So, if you're not familiar with the plight of 77 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:41,680 wolves in the US, here is a quick recap according to the US fishon 78 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,959 Wildlife Service. It's quite sad. Yeah, it's a bummer. I know 79 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:46,360 you've talked about wolves plenty of times in this podcast, but this is a 80 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:50,439 super quick recap so in nineteen seventy eight, the gray wolf was classified as 81 00:05:50,519 --> 00:05:56,279 endangered at the species level throughout the contiguous United States in Mexico except for gray 82 00:05:56,319 --> 00:05:59,759 wolves in Minnesota, which were classified as threatened, so they were doing like 83 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:03,839 bet basically than the rest of the country, and the Northern Rocky Mountains population 84 00:06:03,959 --> 00:06:09,240 was delisted due to recovery in twenty eleven, except for Wyoming, which was 85 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:12,759 delisted in twenty seventeen, and everyone threw a huge stink about that for like, 86 00:06:13,519 --> 00:06:15,720 oh, well, I guess depending on who you are, good reasons 87 00:06:15,759 --> 00:06:20,680 they're not. So remaining wolf populations in the contiguous US were delisted due to 88 00:06:20,759 --> 00:06:25,360 recovery in twenty twenty one, which people also were like what the fuck. 89 00:06:25,959 --> 00:06:30,360 But following up February tenth, twenty twenty two court order, gray wolves in 90 00:06:30,399 --> 00:06:33,759 the contiguous forty eight states and Mexico, with the exception of the Northern Rocky 91 00:06:33,759 --> 00:06:40,240 Mountain population, are now protected under the ESA again, and they're still considered 92 00:06:40,319 --> 00:06:45,240 threatened in Minnesota and endangered in the remaining states, So they got some protections 93 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,519 back. So how did they get taken I'm assuming there's a hard line, 94 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,439 like these are the numbers that have to meet. These are the populations that 95 00:06:51,519 --> 00:06:55,319 got the meat to be taken off this list. How did they get taken 96 00:06:55,399 --> 00:06:58,600 off if they met if they didn't meet those expeentations? How they get put 97 00:06:58,639 --> 00:07:00,839 back on if they do? You know what I mean? Like that was 98 00:07:00,879 --> 00:07:05,639 the tricky thing. So twenty seventeen was during the Trump administration, and this, 99 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:08,519 Okay, I also want to say, like this is going to be 100 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:12,319 a pretty political episode. We're not going to throw around like how Nick and 101 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:14,920 I feel about certain things, like we have our own opinions, but that's 102 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:17,600 not why we're here. Uh So, Anyways, that was during the Trump 103 00:07:17,639 --> 00:07:23,800 administration, And how do I put this in a way that is not bad? 104 00:07:24,839 --> 00:07:28,120 A lot of don't care about the environment that much. Yeah, a 105 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:30,680 lot of Republican leaning people tend to not like wolves. If a lot of 106 00:07:30,959 --> 00:07:33,720 if they side with like a lot of ranchers, because rangers historically do not 107 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:40,639 like wolves. That's a generalization, of course, But so they argued that 108 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:43,519 like wolves hit the target numbers, so therefore, like as soon as you 109 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:47,800 hit target numbers, you should be taken off. But it's so hard to 110 00:07:47,839 --> 00:07:51,639 say that because like, okay, where are these wolves located? Do you 111 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:56,120 have enough in certain areas that will allow them to persist there? Do you 112 00:07:56,160 --> 00:08:00,600 have enough space to allow for more wolves once their populations continue? Like, 113 00:08:00,639 --> 00:08:03,560 are they stable enough that when they get taken off of the endangered species list? 114 00:08:05,079 --> 00:08:07,680 Will people immediately hunt them back to New York stinction? Yeah? Yeah, 115 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:09,800 yeah, that's what people were arguing, like, yeah, we might 116 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:13,800 have hit the base number for like what we need, but will that be 117 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:18,160 enough when people immediately start blasting them? You know? So yeah, I 118 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:20,439 mean you have to be you have to work very closely whoever's making the hunting 119 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:24,399 regulations for states too, Like I would imagine. Yeah, I'm just like 120 00:08:24,439 --> 00:08:28,199 that would just makes sense, Like you don't want to release ten wolves in 121 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,639 Colorado and then have ten people go shoot them, Like this wouldn't make any 122 00:08:31,639 --> 00:08:35,399 sense. Uh huh. So let's get into that. So these wolves that 123 00:08:35,399 --> 00:08:37,879 were released in Colorado were all from packs in Oregon, and they were all 124 00:08:37,919 --> 00:08:43,639 adults above twenty months in age, and they plan to release five more adult 125 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:46,480 wolves by March, for a total of fifteen reintroduced wolves, but their goal 126 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:50,279 within the next two to three years in Colorado is to introduce thirty to fifty 127 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:56,840 wolves. Cool, So here's their plan. Quote wolves are state endangered. 128 00:08:56,200 --> 00:09:01,240 Wolves will be downlisted from State Endangered Phase one to State Threatened Phase two when 129 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:07,440 CPW SOO Colorado Park Wildlife Biologists document a minimum wintertime count of fifty wolves anywhere 130 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:11,799 in the state for four successive years. Wolves will be delisted from the State 131 00:09:11,879 --> 00:09:18,159 Threatened and Endangered Species list and classified as delisted non game Phase three when a 132 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:22,080 minimum count of at least one hundred and fifty wolves anywhere in Colorado is observed 133 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:26,240 for two successive years, or a minimum count of at least two hundred wolves 134 00:09:26,279 --> 00:09:31,879 anywhere in Colorado is observed. So two hundred is the goal. Seems low? 135 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:37,000 Yeah, I guess depending see because Colorado is a big state obviously, 136 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:43,279 but when you consider where they have space to go, that's the hard part. 137 00:09:43,919 --> 00:09:48,080 Oh yeah, and a pack takes up like a lot of territory, 138 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:50,200 so you can't have multiple packs run around top and so other. It just 139 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:54,320 wouldn't work exactly. Also, if you're watching this video on Patreon, because 140 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:58,120 you can watch full length videos for just like a dollar a month on patroon 141 00:09:58,159 --> 00:10:01,480 dot com. Slash CAADAC podcasts, now gonn be looking down at my phone 142 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:05,559 because I was trying to read notes off my laptop and my computer just crashed. 143 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:09,320 So just the pace that you needed, that's all that crashed. Yep, 144 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:13,600 I had two tabs open and it was not okay with that. Tough. 145 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:18,120 Gotta love Microsoft Services. So there have actually been quite a few confirmed 146 00:10:18,159 --> 00:10:22,559 sightings of wolves in Colorado in the past decade as well, including seeing a 147 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:24,720 breeding pair with pups in twenty twenty one, which was the first pair to 148 00:10:24,759 --> 00:10:28,399 breed in the state in eighty years. Damn. So, as you can 149 00:10:28,399 --> 00:10:31,759 imagine, because of the way that wolves have been villainized in the US, 150 00:10:31,799 --> 00:10:35,879 which we've talked about a bunch of times before, Yeah, many people in 151 00:10:35,879 --> 00:10:39,720 Colorado have been threatening the wolves the second that they have been released, and 152 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:43,600 an initial complaint from the ranchers and people who would actually live with their wolves 153 00:10:43,639 --> 00:10:48,919 are being reintroduced was that people in places like Denver and Boulder, Colorado would 154 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:52,519 volte yes on the ballots to have wolves just to be like, oh my 155 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:56,720 god, we lived in a state with wolves, but people that actually lived 156 00:10:56,799 --> 00:10:58,879 out with them did not want them back, essentially, and they were a 157 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,759 set that so many people in the cities had sway over whether or not the 158 00:11:03,759 --> 00:11:07,080 wolves were going to be reintroduced, which I can understand how that is frustrating. 159 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:11,240 But also men are allowed to vote a women's rights to have abortions, 160 00:11:11,279 --> 00:11:16,159 so I feel like we should shock it up to democracy. Wow. Yeah, 161 00:11:16,159 --> 00:11:22,559 we're not sharing reviews on politics this episode. I'm just saying likes. 162 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:28,600 And we already have laws that are set in place for pritors that attack farmers 163 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:33,440 animals like those already exist. Yeah, that's gonna be a big topic in 164 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:39,840 this episode. Boy. Yeah, So Colorado Parks and Wildlife CPW is able 165 00:11:39,879 --> 00:11:43,600 to help landowners, especially ranchers, with hazing wolves away from livestock and defending 166 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:48,639 livestock against wolves. And some methods include, but are not limited to, 167 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:54,000 carcass management, physical barriers like fencing or electrified fencing, guard animals, auditory 168 00:11:54,039 --> 00:12:00,879 and visual scare tactics like flagging lights and sirens, and increased human presence slash 169 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,000 vigilance. So they're going to put up loves of you're fencing for every farmer 170 00:12:03,039 --> 00:12:07,799 in the state. If you are having a problem with wolves, well, 171 00:12:07,799 --> 00:12:09,240 you're not gonna have a problem with wolves until you have a problem with wolves. 172 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:13,159 Like it's already be too late by the time that you do that. 173 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,120 So what's their plan to help people once the wolf show up? Oh god, 174 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:20,440 I mean that's how it works here in New Hampshire. Like, if 175 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:22,840 you're having a problem with a bear, we're not going to help you until 176 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:26,240 it happens, because why would we waste resources if there's no problem. I'm 177 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:28,679 with you, I totally agree. I'm just from their point of view. 178 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,559 Yeah, that's fair. And killing a wolf in Colorado is only allowed if 179 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:39,200 someone encounters a wolf actively killing their livestock or if the wolf is trying to 180 00:12:39,279 --> 00:12:41,559 kill you. Of course. Okay, so it's on your land, you 181 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:45,360 can't shoot it. You just have to chin all it is literally on a 182 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:50,320 cow trying to kill it. Yeah, and if lethal control is used during 183 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:54,519 a depredation event, a permit must be issued and an investigation by CPW would 184 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:58,960 determine whether there is proof of either of these instances occurring at all. Wait, 185 00:12:58,159 --> 00:13:01,600 you have to get a permit before you can shoot the animal that's attacking 186 00:13:01,639 --> 00:13:05,399 your cow. So basically what that means is like because you can do the 187 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:07,879 same thing here in New Hampshire. You can get a depredation permit for like 188 00:13:07,919 --> 00:13:09,879 a bear out of season for example. Right, So an example that would 189 00:13:09,879 --> 00:13:13,080 be in our state would be a black bear going after your corn or your 190 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:18,000 live stock, and you have proof that it's happening, so the state is 191 00:13:18,039 --> 00:13:20,879 like, Okay, here's a permit. You can do it next time they 192 00:13:20,879 --> 00:13:26,360 come on your property. So if a wolf is actively killing livestock, like 193 00:13:26,399 --> 00:13:31,919 you find it on a cow, you can shoot it. But if it 194 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:35,320 kills a cow, you didn't catch it in time, but you're like, 195 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:37,480 it was definitely a wolf, and then CPW comes out and they're like, 196 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:39,279 yeah, this was a wolf and it keeps happening, they can give you 197 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:43,440 a permit. So here's a scenario. Wolf attacks cow, cow dies, 198 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:48,360 farmer never sees wolf do it, but tracks bites everything. You can tell 199 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:52,600 it's a wolf. Wolf is fifty feet away on a hill somewhere, not 200 00:13:52,799 --> 00:13:56,360 on your cow. You're not allowed to shoot it. No, I can 201 00:13:56,399 --> 00:14:00,440 see it actively. I can see where people will get upset. That's the 202 00:14:00,519 --> 00:14:01,600 law, baby, I know, I get. I'm not argue. I'm 203 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:05,559 just siding to see how people would get upset about this. So without a 204 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,639 permit, killing a gray wolf remains punishable by fines up to one hundred thousand 205 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:15,720 dollars, jail time, and loss of hunting privileges. However, the big 206 00:14:15,799 --> 00:14:20,360 concern for these wolves in Colorado currently besides because you know, obviously, people 207 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:24,000 in Colorado if you're a ranchers like you know the rules and shit. So 208 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:30,000 that's that. But the big issue is if these wolves cross into Wyoming, 209 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:35,600 because although wolves are protected right now in Colorado, this shocked me. This 210 00:14:35,639 --> 00:14:39,559 is why this is an entire episode. Apparently, in Wyoming. I don't 211 00:14:39,559 --> 00:14:43,799 know if you knew this, there is a predator zone that is a fifty 212 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:48,639 three million acre area you are able to shoot on site with no license or 213 00:14:48,679 --> 00:14:54,240 bag limits. Really, so if you're like me and you don't hunt wolves 214 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:58,759 or live in Wyoming, you probably have never heard of this. But after 215 00:14:58,799 --> 00:15:01,759 some digging through the hy Domain Game Fish Department rules and laws, I found 216 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:07,279 the following quote. Gray wolves located in Hunt Area twelve are designated as trophy 217 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:11,200 game animals from October fifteenth through the last day of February and the subsequent year, 218 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:15,600 but the hunting season shall end on December thirty first, or when the 219 00:15:15,639 --> 00:15:20,440 mortality limit has been reached, whichever occurs first. Gray wolves located in Hunt 220 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:26,159 Area twelve are designated as predatory animals from March first through October fourteenth, that's 221 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:28,600 most of the year, and during this time period may be taken without a 222 00:15:28,679 --> 00:15:33,399 license. And if you kill a wolf as a predatory animal, here are 223 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:37,679 the requirements following its death. Any person who takes a gray wolf designated as 224 00:15:37,679 --> 00:15:41,720 a predatory animal shall be required to report the kill to a district game warden, 225 00:15:41,039 --> 00:15:46,080 wildlife bilogist, or department personnel at Game and Fish Department Regional office within 226 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:50,399 ten days after the date the gray wolf was killed. The person shall be 227 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:52,240 required to provide their name and address, the date the gray wolf was killed, 228 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:56,279 the sex of the gray wolf, and the location of the kill site. 229 00:15:56,320 --> 00:16:00,159 And any person taking a gray wolf designated as a predatory animal where an 230 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,240 electronic radio tracking device s, I'll surrender the device to the department when registering 231 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:07,080 a gray wolf in accordance with registration dates. All right, it all makes 232 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:12,320 sense. Yeah, And I will add a number to our episode description that 233 00:16:12,559 --> 00:16:18,120 is the Wyoming Game and Fish Anti Poaching Line. I'll just say it now, 234 00:16:18,159 --> 00:16:25,159 so the number is one eight seven seven wg FD TIP and in state 235 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:29,720 that's three oh seven seven seven seven four three three zero or you could text 236 00:16:29,759 --> 00:16:36,320 the keyword WGFD and any message to tip four to one one or eight four 237 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:41,120 seven four one one. Nice. Yeah. Now, there is a sixty 238 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:47,759 mile buffer zone between Colorado and Wyoming, but wolves travel, So the concern 239 00:16:47,799 --> 00:16:51,159 is that when the populations start to increase, they will start to seek, 240 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:52,679 like new wolves will start to seek their own territories, and that's when they 241 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:57,120 might cross over to Wyoming and just get decimated. An example of this, 242 00:16:57,679 --> 00:17:02,399 remember when I said earlier that there was a breeding pair of wolves in Colorado 243 00:17:02,399 --> 00:17:06,440 in twenty twenty one. Yes, at least one of those wolves crossed into 244 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:11,160 Wyoming and was legally shot in that predatory zone, and it became a mess 245 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:17,839 because neither Wyoming nor Colorado state officials would confirm the kill, and Wyoming officials 246 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:22,000 refused to give Colorado their reports because quote, they don't have the right to 247 00:17:22,079 --> 00:17:26,119 know. Do they not have the rights to know? Is it legally binding? 248 00:17:26,759 --> 00:17:30,039 Well, let me tell you. According to a twenty twelve statute in 249 00:17:30,039 --> 00:17:36,640 Wyoming, quote, information identifying any person legally taking a wolf within this state 250 00:17:36,759 --> 00:17:40,319 is solely for the use of the Department or appropriate law enforcement officers and is 251 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:45,880 not public record. Good I like that. No, So this not only 252 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:48,559 affects what information Game and Fish shares with the public, but also what it 253 00:17:48,599 --> 00:17:53,720 shares with federal agencies and RESEARCHERSKA and Wyoming Game and Fish Department officials say they 254 00:17:53,759 --> 00:17:59,119 can't share anything more specific than the aggregate number of wolves that have been killed 255 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:03,079 in the predator Zone, an area that covers eighty five percent of Wyoming. 256 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,640 So if a wolf dies outside of their normal range in southern Wyoming, even 257 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:12,279 the general region of the killing is considered confidential. Damn, that's very secretive. 258 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,319 Yeah, So there are currently lawsuits going on about the statute, specifically 259 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:21,200 because some lawyers are like, you can redact names and still you have an 260 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:25,960 obligation to release this information, especially because there was a rancher from an article 261 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:27,640 I found in the area who said, quote, this valley is full of 262 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:30,359 hunters, and boy, it'd be a pretty smart wolf to make it in 263 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:34,160 this valley. Everybody here drives around with a rifle in their pickup because that's 264 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:38,519 the culture. And even more frustrating is normally you can file a Freedom of 265 00:18:38,559 --> 00:18:44,519 Information Act requests like a FOYA in the US, to see government reports and 266 00:18:44,519 --> 00:18:48,079 investigations about things like this like wolf killings. But if the state leaves the 267 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:53,440 investigation about wolf deaths open, you cannot get any information on it because it's 268 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:57,559 currently like an active case and they only give you information on closed cases. 269 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:02,839 That's shady. I don't like that. Yeah, so that's kind of the 270 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:04,960 point. It's like they're trying to say, oh, well, people who 271 00:19:06,079 --> 00:19:08,359 might kill wolves, like we don't want them to get death threats for killing 272 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:14,599 wolves, which is fair, but they're being so secretive about it, and 273 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:18,000 the fact that there's like no between state cooperation and you know how I mentioned 274 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,880 that all the wolves in Colorado are from Oregon. Yeah, from what I've 275 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:26,720 seen, because Wyoming and Montana didn't want to give any wolves to Colorado because 276 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:30,759 they didn't support the reintroduction. Wow. Interesting states that have wolves already. 277 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:36,440 Yeah, there's a lot of like shitty interstate politics going on. Well, 278 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:37,759 I mean, shout, we listen to that though. The states that have 279 00:19:37,799 --> 00:19:41,680 the wolves are telling a state that want wolves, no, you don't shoon't 280 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:44,880 we listen to the people that have experience with them. I think it really 281 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:48,720 depends on who's in charge, of course, of course. Yeah, so 282 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:51,920 I also don't want this to come off as like me sounding like I don't 283 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:53,079 care about the plight of ranchers. I completely, which is why I'm trying 284 00:19:53,079 --> 00:19:57,839 to play the middle here, which is why I'm actively trying to go be 285 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:00,839 in the middle of this. Yeah, and I hope that people who are 286 00:20:00,839 --> 00:20:04,000 listening to understand Nick's not saying this because he's like, fuck these wolves, 287 00:20:04,039 --> 00:20:07,400 Like I like wolves, I would like more wolves. Yeah, we're here 288 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:14,000 to give you information see all sides. We're not necessarily trying to. I 289 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:17,240 mean, I'm kind of taking aside, but like when trying to remain as 290 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:22,119 neutral as possible, and I understand that, like, if you're a rancher 291 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:23,920 and you have hundreds of cattle and barely any people to manage them, you're 292 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:29,119 like constantly defending against predators, which is hard, and without farmers we wouldn't 293 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:33,480 have food. I obviously I'm very pro farmer, so just to remain as 294 00:20:33,519 --> 00:20:37,880 neutral as I can. For example, there was a ranch in Jackson County 295 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:41,720 in Colorado that in twenty twenty two was experiencing depredation on their cattle by wolves, 296 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:45,839 and it started in December of twenty twenty one when wolf number two one 297 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:52,599 zero one injured or killed seven of this rancher's cows, including a calf, 298 00:20:52,839 --> 00:20:56,440 and then six of his neighbor's cows and several of his neighbors working dogs. 299 00:20:57,079 --> 00:21:02,440 What the fuck? Yeah? And then another wolf number two one zero three 300 00:21:02,799 --> 00:21:04,519 killed a few lambs at a nearby ranch. So this was like an ongoing 301 00:21:04,559 --> 00:21:08,200 problem and these people aren't allowed to kill wolves on their land. You can 302 00:21:08,279 --> 00:21:11,279 see why that would be aggravator for these people. Well, also this was 303 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:18,240 before the release, so back then under the Colorado Wolf Management Plan, well, 304 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:22,720 a rancher could kill a wolf if they discovered it quote chronically depredating their 305 00:21:22,759 --> 00:21:26,680 livestock or in self defense of a human life, but it was up to 306 00:21:26,759 --> 00:21:30,759 officials to decide what chronically depredating meant, and in this case, they decided 307 00:21:30,799 --> 00:21:34,960 they would not lethally remove the wolves, which is what the rancher was asking, 308 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:38,960 because there was a change in pack dynamics that caused the wolves to leave 309 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:44,680 the area. So they did leave and the depredation stopped, but for almost 310 00:21:44,759 --> 00:21:48,039 a year it was like a thing that they were constantly fighting against. And 311 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:52,400 of course the ranchers were rightfully frustrated because they'd been trying so many methods of 312 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:57,720 like non lethal harassment. So they bought donkeys, they bought horned cattle to 313 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:02,279 try to defend their other cattle. They tried flagging, they tried crackershells, 314 00:22:02,279 --> 00:22:04,359 so like you know, you shoot, it's kind of like a firework almost, 315 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:11,359 And they also spent every night with their cattle for months, outside with 316 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:15,680 their fucking cows for months. And for this rancher specifically, they work on 317 00:22:15,799 --> 00:22:18,920 eleven thousand acres, but it's just a married couple running it, so they 318 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:22,559 don't have the manpower to protect all their cattle all the time. And when 319 00:22:22,599 --> 00:22:26,160 they attended meetings with CPWS to Colorado parks in my life, they also claim 320 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:30,519 to be understaffed, so they were like, sorry, we can't help you 321 00:22:30,559 --> 00:22:34,880 more. We are overrun as it is ourselves as an agency. So in 322 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:40,079 cases like that, I can totally emphasize with the ranchers and understand that, 323 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,160 like they say that they're going to help you, and then you're experiencing this 324 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,400 problem and you're not getting the help that you need because they're understaffed, and 325 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:51,839 it's Colorado's a big fucking state. And I will say two of the wolves 326 00:22:51,839 --> 00:22:55,279 taken from Oregon have killed cattle in the past two years, So that is 327 00:22:55,279 --> 00:22:57,359 a big concern. I'm not even against the the wolves killing the cow that's 328 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,480 going to happen, like that is going to happen, but it's if the 329 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:04,039 state's going to be introducing them, they have to have some kind of obligation 330 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,960 to the people who live in the areas. So according to a twenty fifteen 331 00:23:08,039 --> 00:23:14,480 report by the United States Department of Agriculture aka the USDA, in twenty fifteen, 332 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,440 ninety eight percent of adult cattle deaths and eighty nine percent of calf deaths 333 00:23:18,759 --> 00:23:23,759 were not caused by predators. Okay, so ninety eight of adults and eighty 334 00:23:23,839 --> 00:23:30,720 nine percent of calfs, so like baby cows, died from not predatory things. 335 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:34,319 So the highest cause of deaths in adult and calves was respiratory illness, 336 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:38,279 so that was twenty three point nine and twenty six point nine percent, respectively. 337 00:23:38,799 --> 00:23:42,200 And in this twenty fifteen report, it said that fifty three point one 338 00:23:42,279 --> 00:23:48,119 percent of predatory deaths, so deaths cause by predators to calves were caused by 339 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:53,240 coyotes, which shocked me. And forty point five percent of predatory deaths to 340 00:23:53,319 --> 00:23:57,880 adult cattle were attributed to coyotes as well, so, like I said, 341 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:03,039 eighty nine percent of baby calves were not killed by predators, so that means 342 00:24:03,039 --> 00:24:07,599 only eleven percent of calves died due to predators of literally millions of deaths, 343 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:12,119 but fifty basically percent of those were from coyotes, So fifty percent of the 344 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:17,519 eleven percent. There's a lot of numbers, I apologize. So following coyotes, 345 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:22,599 twelve point four percent of predatory cause deaths on calves were attributed to unknown 346 00:24:22,599 --> 00:24:26,759 predators, and then vultures made up ten point three percent. Really, that 347 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:32,799 also shocked me. Interesting, and for adult cattle, fifteen point eight percent 348 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:38,559 of predatory deaths were caused by unknown predators, followed eleven point three percent dogs. 349 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:45,519 Nowhere in there if you noticed, did I relay a statistic about wolves 350 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:52,000 killing cattle? No, So dogs statistically are more likely to kill cattle than 351 00:24:52,079 --> 00:24:57,720 wolves, which that makes sense because like, dogs are everywhere, and of 352 00:24:57,759 --> 00:25:02,720 course I listed to unknown press which could include wolves. But like basically it 353 00:25:02,839 --> 00:25:06,519 was, we have no evidence as to what specifically this is because it's as 354 00:25:06,559 --> 00:25:11,319 it is super hard to prove what animal killed what thing. So this was 355 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:12,880 the most up to date report of its kind that I could find. Released 356 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,759 by the USDA. So that was twenty fifteen. Obviously it's twenty twenty four 357 00:25:15,799 --> 00:25:18,880 now, so things might have changed. But in this report, the USDA 358 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:23,200 is admitting that wolves do not make up a significant amount of predatory cattle related 359 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,519 deaths overall in the US. Keep that in mind as we go forward. 360 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,920 Well, there's also not many wolves around right now. They're trying to introduce 361 00:25:30,319 --> 00:25:34,720 more wolves, which would mean more deaths of cattle. But you could also 362 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:41,799 argue because wolves as a top predator drive out coyotes and maybe dogs, that 363 00:25:41,839 --> 00:25:47,039 there could also be less deaths from those animals, so it might also equal 364 00:25:47,079 --> 00:25:49,839 out. Oh yeah, So I also want to take a moment to point 365 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,799 out here that the report only spoke of cows, right, so we're not 366 00:25:53,839 --> 00:25:59,240 even talking about like goats, sheep, pigs, anything else. In twenty 367 00:25:59,319 --> 00:26:06,240 nineteen alone, dogs killed over ten thousand sheep in the US. Yeah, 368 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,880 it's actually a low number you think about it. It's a ten thousand that 369 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,400 shocked me. It's a lot of freaking sheep out there. So admittedly, 370 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,839 the US does not have a lot of great insight into how much damaged dogs 371 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:22,519 actually do to livestock. Because it makes sense wildlife agencies don't consider free roaming 372 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,480 or like feral dogs to be wildlife, so there's not really a department that's 373 00:26:26,559 --> 00:26:33,119 overseeing damage that dogs are doing. But other countries such as Brazil and Italy 374 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,839 have looked into this, and the numbers there are staggering of like how much 375 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:41,559 damaged dogs actually due to livestock. And not only are dogs killing livestock, 376 00:26:41,839 --> 00:26:45,279 but they attack and kill endangered species covered by the ESA as well. And 377 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:49,680 a huge example of this is people letting their dogs run off leash on beaches 378 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,039 and then the dogs go up in the sand dunes and eat the eggs of 379 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:57,480 ground nesting birds like clovers, or eat the adults themselves. So let this 380 00:26:57,559 --> 00:27:00,480 also be a PSA please for the love of God to keep your dog on 381 00:27:00,519 --> 00:27:06,319 a leash on the beach so they don't destroy endangered species things general. And 382 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:08,680 I know I'm harping on this a lot, like this whole dog thing and 383 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,200 like trying to kind of steer it away from wolves being like at Fall for 384 00:27:12,279 --> 00:27:18,079 killing cattle, but I want to like stick this point in people's heads about 385 00:27:18,079 --> 00:27:22,039 dogs, because consider the reason that people hate coyotes and wolves. A lot 386 00:27:22,079 --> 00:27:26,680 of people are like well, the way that they kill animals is cruel, 387 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,880 and that's what I've heard a lot of like my family members say, who 388 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:30,839 don't like coyotes. They're like, oh, well, I watch them like 389 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:36,680 tear apart deer and it's awful. But wolves and coyotes, like the only 390 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:41,200 weapon they have is their mouths, so they have to run and tear bits 391 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:45,720 off of animals or like grab them to kill them. Right, what a 392 00:27:45,759 --> 00:27:48,759 weird thing to be concerned about. Yeah, well, I mean if you 393 00:27:48,799 --> 00:27:53,880 watch like a pack of wolves tear apart and animal that's like alive as they're 394 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,680 tearing it apart, I can see why you'd be like, wow, that's 395 00:27:56,759 --> 00:28:00,640 fucked up, Like those things suck, you know what I mean. But 396 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:07,000 if you hate wolves and coyotes for that reason, consider that dogs also kill 397 00:28:07,079 --> 00:28:11,519 things that way, but worse because they don't have the same instincts as their 398 00:28:11,519 --> 00:28:17,720 wild counterparts. Reports of dogs killing livestock are usually like especially gruesome and awful 399 00:28:17,759 --> 00:28:21,200 for whoever comes upon them, because the animals are just like fucking torn apart 400 00:28:21,319 --> 00:28:23,319 and they don't know how to kill a thing. They know tear apart and 401 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,480 eat, sure, but they don't know how to actually kill something. Yeah, 402 00:28:26,519 --> 00:28:30,640 and their instincts, you know, if you're gonna hate on wolves coyotes 403 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,279 like dogs. Also, not that I'm saying we should hate dogs. I 404 00:28:33,279 --> 00:28:37,319 fucking love my dogs, but like, what are the the laws about killing 405 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:41,119 a dog that's attacking your cattle or that you find on your land. So 406 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,960 that's a great question I would assume would be the same thing where like if 407 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,079 you find them actually doing damage. I mean I know of a case around 408 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:53,400 me where this guy had some chickens. A dog that continually attacked his chickens 409 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:57,079 came attacked chickens one day and he shot it, And even the owner was 410 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:00,119 like, yeah, that's on me, Like I let my dog attack your 411 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,880 chickens and you shot it. So sorry legal ramifications for that. I think 412 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,039 if they're actively doing damage, if you can kill wildlife that's actually doing damage, 413 00:29:07,039 --> 00:29:11,079 I can imagine you can kill a dog for you know what I say 414 00:29:11,079 --> 00:29:14,920 that, please look into your local state. Check check on that, check 415 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,759 on that interesting. But that's a good point, right, Like dogs are 416 00:29:18,799 --> 00:29:22,759 such a big gray area for a lot of states because who manages them. 417 00:29:22,799 --> 00:29:27,119 You know, we've talked for a while, so let's finally get into animal 418 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:32,440 attacks. Because that's what this podcast is about, baby, and we're gonna 419 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:36,440 go for dogs because there's a community in Ansa, California. Do you know 420 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:41,000 where that is? Have you heard? No? So in this town in 421 00:29:41,039 --> 00:29:45,440 California, dogs have become a huge problem. There's packs of free roaming dogs 422 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:51,599 that regularly slaughter livestock, including one group that included three lab mixes, two 423 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:56,519 blue heelers, and a husky that killed an entire herd of goats and sheep. 424 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:02,519 Jesus. And in December of twenty eighteen, a fifty four year old 425 00:30:02,519 --> 00:30:06,519 woman named Angela Johnson was hanging laundry in her yard in Ansa, California, 426 00:30:06,599 --> 00:30:10,839 when three loose pit bulls attacked her and she was airlifted to a trauma center, 427 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,119 but died two months later in twenty nineteen due to her injuries. Fuck. 428 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,240 And so this has been for years an ongoing problem, and the police 429 00:30:18,279 --> 00:30:21,880 officers there like trying to tell people, hey, please spay and neuter your 430 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,640 pets and don't just dump them. But like it hasn't really gotten better, 431 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:27,839 and there's continually like more and more dog attacks coming out of that area. 432 00:30:29,759 --> 00:30:33,799 It's rough. Well that was that rough? Oh No, it was real. 433 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,039 That was bad. That was bad. Also, if you listen to 434 00:30:37,079 --> 00:30:40,559 a bonus eisode, I'm going to talk a lot more about dog attacks from 435 00:30:40,559 --> 00:30:42,920 twenty twenty three as well, because there's a lot there is a lot of 436 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:51,640 them. Statistically, dog attacks, sorry, specifically deaths from dog attacks is 437 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:56,279 increasing in the last few years, which is really concerning. But anyways, 438 00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:00,640 back to wolves, because the reintroduction of wolves and Coltto is not the only 439 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,960 recovery plan in place for wolves in the US, and it's not the only 440 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:08,599 one that has faced backlash because in twenty twenty two, a whistleblower with the 441 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:15,039 USDA Wildlife Services confirmed that members of New Mexico Wildlife Services were illegally calling Mexican 442 00:31:15,079 --> 00:31:21,960 wolves and were quote confirming depredation reports for ranchers that ask them to so that 443 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,519 the wolves could be lethally removed. And also, I've been saying depredation a 444 00:31:25,519 --> 00:31:29,319 lot, so just to clear that up, that means the act of attacking 445 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:33,880 or plundering, so they call it like depredation. Okay, gotcha. So 446 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:38,160 for a bit of background, Mexican wolves were reintroduced to New Mexico in nineteen 447 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,440 ninety eight and since then, if you're not familiar with the us or not 448 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:45,640 familiar with Wildlife Services in general. The USDA has a branch called the Animal 449 00:31:45,799 --> 00:31:51,200 Plant Health Inspection Service, and then under that, which is APHIS, So 450 00:31:51,359 --> 00:31:56,279 under APHIS there's Wildlife Services and Wildlife Services. The whole point is like dealing 451 00:31:56,319 --> 00:32:00,720 with wildlife that is harming agriculture essentially, that's the easiest way to put it 452 00:32:00,799 --> 00:32:07,319 right. So Wildlife Services was given orders to remove two hundred and six Mexican 453 00:32:07,359 --> 00:32:13,599 wolves since nineteen ninety eight, so since the reintroduction, even though the highest 454 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:17,640 count of Mexican wolves in the wild ever since then was only one hundred and 455 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:22,680 ninety six and twenty twenty one Jesus, Yeah, those reports are being kept 456 00:32:22,799 --> 00:32:28,960 from the federal agency that was doing the reintroducing of the wolves. I don't 457 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,000 know why the US makes our government so complicated, but checks and balances. 458 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:36,839 Yeah, yeah, So the people that were working on this Mexican wolf reintroduction 459 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,519 had no idea that these depredation things were really happening, and they couldn't look 460 00:32:39,559 --> 00:32:43,799 into it because they weren't getting their reports. But when they finally did see 461 00:32:43,799 --> 00:32:47,039 the reports, they confirmed that the depredation reports were erroneous, meaning that New 462 00:32:47,039 --> 00:32:53,000 Mexican Wildlife Services employees were illegally killing these endangered wolves. In one report, 463 00:32:53,079 --> 00:32:58,400 a wolf kill was confirmed using only a month old piece of hide from a 464 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:05,200 cow which was soaked and stretched before the inspector took its measurements. It's kind 465 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,839 of dumb, super dumb, doesn't make any sense. And in another case, 466 00:33:09,079 --> 00:33:15,839 five dead calves in varying states of decomposition were submitted at once to basically 467 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:20,680 say that they were all killed by wolves, and all five were confirmed as 468 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:28,440 wolf kills. Damn yeah. In twenty twenty, an entire pack was destroyed 469 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:34,759 by Wildlife Services because they allegedly were killing lots of cattle, and the whistleblower 470 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,319 was the for like all of this illegal shit for the Mexican gray wolves. 471 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:44,599 The whistleblower was New Mexico's Wildlife Services state director, so he was in charge 472 00:33:44,799 --> 00:33:50,400 of all of this, and he was actually fired due to quote complaints from 473 00:33:50,559 --> 00:33:54,880 ranchers and also he kept trying to go above him and say like, hey, 474 00:33:55,039 --> 00:33:59,079 I'm noticing this and like, I this is a problem when we do 475 00:33:59,079 --> 00:34:00,680 about it, and people basically told him like, shut up about it, 476 00:34:01,839 --> 00:34:07,039 so he ended up psuing the federal government and he won, but no action 477 00:34:07,239 --> 00:34:13,719 was taken to address the actual corrupt livestock compensation that was happening. And also 478 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,199 like nothing was done about the wolf for removolves. So they're still doing this. 479 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:21,320 I don't know if it's still happening after this whole whistleblower thing, but 480 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,519 it it's been confirmed that these animals were not killed by wolves, Like it's 481 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:31,320 been confirmed that you could not confirm that it was wolves. Basically, so, 482 00:34:31,599 --> 00:34:36,960 Mexican wolves are a subspecies of gray wolf, and they're actually smaller than 483 00:34:37,039 --> 00:34:38,199 gray wolves that are like northern like the ones that we were just talking about 484 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:45,119 Colorado. So these wolves typically eatjvelinas and deer, and a model predicted that 485 00:34:45,159 --> 00:34:47,280 if there were one hundred Mexican wolves, they would be expected to kill around 486 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:52,119 thirty four cattle annually, which is like not a small amount, I guess, 487 00:34:52,119 --> 00:34:55,119 and most of that would be calves because once again they're smaller, so 488 00:34:55,159 --> 00:35:00,760 they'd probably be killing the smaller cattle. Wild Services said they confirmed one hundred 489 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:06,440 and thirty three cattle kills by wolves. Damn. Yeah. These kills were 490 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,960 often confirmed by bite mark analysis. We've talked about bite mark analysis before, 491 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:14,960 because from what I've learned in my schooling for a wildlife forensics, bite mark 492 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:20,360 analysis is an art and experts have been known to misidentify even human bite marks. 493 00:35:21,119 --> 00:35:24,000 So not only would it be hard to confirm a Mexican wolf specifically just 494 00:35:24,039 --> 00:35:30,000 by their teeth, but the Mexican wolf range also overlaps with coyotes, dogs, 495 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:35,679 mountain lions, like, there's so many other things that could attack cattle, 496 00:35:36,159 --> 00:35:40,039 So it's super hard to prove that it's this endangered wolf doing it where 497 00:35:40,079 --> 00:35:45,400 there's only like a hundred of these wolves. How are they killing hundreds of 498 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:47,800 cattle and you're confirming it every time, you know what I mean? And 499 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:52,039 this is not to mention that reporting was frankly just terrible. And in some 500 00:35:52,079 --> 00:35:55,000 cases the measurements of canine bites did not match with the photos taken at the 501 00:35:55,000 --> 00:36:00,679 scene, so like there'd be a picture with measures of the bite marks, 502 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:05,280 and then the report would be written with like different numbers than actually what was 503 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:08,960 like physically there, which seems so crazy to me that you could take pictures 504 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:13,559 of it and then lie. Anyways, it could be the situation where the 505 00:36:13,599 --> 00:36:15,320 hide got stretch and dried like something like that right. I mean, over 506 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:20,480 time, an animal is going to expand and contract after its death. But 507 00:36:20,519 --> 00:36:22,360 you take pictures of the scene as you're investigating, and that's what you're write 508 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,840 in your report. You don't change the numbers based on the pictures that you 509 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:30,519 have. So according to the lead for the recovery team for Mexican wolves, 510 00:36:30,559 --> 00:36:35,639 the agencies involved have never taken an active part in the wolf's recovery and it's 511 00:36:35,679 --> 00:36:40,159 always been forced by litigation rather than like the state wants to do it, 512 00:36:40,199 --> 00:36:45,119 if that makes sense. And even when within the recovery plan for Mexican gray 513 00:36:45,159 --> 00:36:51,320 wolves, there are loopholes including quote the establishment of a boundary wolves would not 514 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,280 be permitted to cross, which like, how do you enforce that? Stupid? 515 00:36:54,880 --> 00:37:00,719 And they designated the population non essential to the species survival. It's the 516 00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:07,440 only one that we have in the US. What uh huh if they cross 517 00:37:07,519 --> 00:37:10,360 this line, they get shot. Like that's just what they're they're saying, 518 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:16,639 that's what they're proposed. That's yep, part of the uh recovery plan because 519 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:22,679 basically, like this was people saying that they wanted this wolf rather than the 520 00:37:22,679 --> 00:37:24,800 government taking the initiative. So they're like, well, give ourselves some back 521 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,760 doorways to get rid of them. If we have to, we want to 522 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,719 basically, and God forbid you are in the government and you speak up for 523 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:37,199 the wolves, because there always seems to be a huge overreaction, which was 524 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,480 the case for New Mexico Senator Martin Henrick, who called out the lack of 525 00:37:40,519 --> 00:37:45,320 accountability and scientific integrity going on with this Mexican wolf recovery, like with Wildlife 526 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:51,599 Services and shit, which spurred the House of Representatives to introduce legislation to try 527 00:37:51,639 --> 00:37:55,159 to take away the endangered species status from the Mexican wolves. This population of 528 00:37:55,199 --> 00:37:59,679 Mexican wolves in New Mexico is literally the only wild population we have in the 529 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:05,599 US, and they wanted to take away designation from it after spending as a 530 00:38:05,639 --> 00:38:09,519 country millions of dollars to reintroduce these wolves. Well, why aren't the people 531 00:38:09,519 --> 00:38:13,920 of New Mexico asked about this before they did it? Then they must have 532 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:17,320 been right. I didn't look into this one as much as the Colorado thing 533 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:21,800 is. You have to be talking to the residents that live in these areas 534 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:23,400 and if they're so against it, like why are we doing it? Well, 535 00:38:23,519 --> 00:38:28,000 so obviously like ranchers, but Also it's the government, like people in 536 00:38:28,039 --> 00:38:31,679 the government in New Mexico that are who is what it is that? Well 537 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:35,280 you like to think, you like to think, you like to think, 538 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:39,159 yeah, yeah. And they've even had to start breeding Mexican wolves in captivity 539 00:38:39,199 --> 00:38:44,960 and then put them into existing wolf dends because Wildlife Services has landed such a 540 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:49,880 big blow on their genetic diversity, Like these wolves are being reintroduced by the 541 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:55,039 Federal Fish and Wildlife Services, and Wildlife Services under the USDA is taking them 542 00:38:55,079 --> 00:39:01,320 down a huge notch. It is insane how much like governmental bullshit is happening 543 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:06,320 to these wolves. Frankly, Yeah, and half of these Mexican wolves are 544 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,360 radio collared, to which one rancher told the head of their recovery project, 545 00:39:09,639 --> 00:39:14,360 quote, we don't want them collared because then we can kill them if they 546 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,159 are not. So they're not allowed to kill the collared ones. Well, 547 00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:21,719 they say, like if they're collared, because the scientists who have them collared 548 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,280 get regular pings on where the wolves are. So if a wolf has been 549 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:28,320 in the same spot for a day, it's pretty easy to go out there 550 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,000 and find it poached. But the ones that aren't collared, who's to say 551 00:39:32,079 --> 00:39:38,639 and poaching, both by the USC Wildlife Services and ranchers, is the leading 552 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:45,400 cause of death for Mexican gray wolves Jesus, surpassed only by unsolved disappearances, 553 00:39:45,679 --> 00:39:52,480 which spike when protections are lifted. In the first two decades of their recovery, 554 00:39:52,639 --> 00:39:57,519 over one hundred Mexican wolves were illegally poached, but in twenty twenty two, 555 00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:01,119 two pairs of Mexican wolves were released into Mexico in the Sierra Madre mountain 556 00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:06,400 range, which brings the total of Mexican wolves in Mexico up to forty five, 557 00:40:06,639 --> 00:40:09,559 which was thanks in part to the white Mountain Apache tribe that said very 558 00:40:09,559 --> 00:40:14,480 early on that they wanted their predator back home. Nice. I don't know 559 00:40:14,519 --> 00:40:20,480 when Mexico started reintroducing or whatever, but it seems they're more willing to have 560 00:40:20,519 --> 00:40:22,320 them. I mean, they're also in a mountain range there, so maybe 561 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:24,159 there's like less ranching going on. But also the native people they are like, 562 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:27,400 hell, yeah, bring the wolves, which is the important part. 563 00:40:27,679 --> 00:40:30,679 The people in the area want it, then absolutely the fucking do it. 564 00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:32,400 But did you just have the people who live there are so against it, 565 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:37,159 like why what are you doing? Like it's never gonna work. Yeah, 566 00:40:37,199 --> 00:40:40,360 but then it's like, so, what we let a species go extinct because 567 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:44,559 people don't like them? Well, no, you introduced them into the native 568 00:40:44,639 --> 00:40:47,199 land where they can cow. Mexico is their native land. No, No, 569 00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:51,719 that natives land that want them there in Mexico. Oh, like you 570 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:54,760 find the communities that want them, and the Colorado like they want the wolves. 571 00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:58,599 They voted on the wolves. That's good, but only some people did, 572 00:40:58,639 --> 00:41:01,039 the people that may not be living around the Jordy did, which is 573 00:41:01,079 --> 00:41:05,519 the important part. Yeah, but we don't know what was voted back in 574 00:41:05,599 --> 00:41:07,719 nineteen ninety eight and like how that went down with Mexican wolves though. Of 575 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:12,840 course, I just don't get how we got to this point as a country 576 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:16,400 where like, we fucking hate wolves so much, and we have government agencies 577 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:20,760 that are so willing to like secretly shoot them even though they're species that we've 578 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,440 spent millions of dollars on reintroducing. Yeah, no, that's that's insane. 579 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:27,440 I don't know what the fuck's going on there. So I mentioned up top 580 00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,639 that I would also cover a case of someone killing a federally protected animal claiming 581 00:41:30,679 --> 00:41:34,039 that they were attacked by it. So let's finally get into that. A 582 00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,159 relevant case was recently revealed during investigation into the death of a grizzly bear. 583 00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:46,280 In twenty fifteen, a marine was hunting in Wyoming's Shoshone Shoshone Shoshone I don't 584 00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:51,880 know National Forest and he was hunting elk when he claimed a grizzly bear came 585 00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:55,920 out of the brush and charged him. He recorded himself, including audio and 586 00:41:57,039 --> 00:42:01,239 video, after the attack, in which he said things like I'm smoking him, 587 00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:06,599 I don't want a big bear like that where I hunt, and this 588 00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:12,719 is destiny. That bear attacked the wrong man. He then, as he 589 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,119 was recording, tracked down the grizzly he shot, found it dead, and 590 00:42:15,159 --> 00:42:17,920 took selfies with it, and cut off one of its claws to keep as 591 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:23,480 a souvenir. The marine spent a few more nights in the woods hunting, 592 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:28,239 killed an elk, and then when he was done, finally reported the grizzly 593 00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:31,679 death to the FEDS. However, the FEDS were by the time this guy 594 00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:36,639 got back out and reported it, were already investigating this grizzly's death because someone 595 00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:40,039 actually encountered this guy after the bear attack and noted that he had a claw 596 00:42:40,119 --> 00:42:45,280 from the bear, oh, which is a violation of the Endangered Species Act. 597 00:42:46,159 --> 00:42:50,239 So of course he claimed that the bear was attacking him and he killed 598 00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:53,800 in self defense and he was quote happy for the experience and thought it was 599 00:42:53,880 --> 00:43:00,000 pretty cool. He then admitted to investigators that he did not tag the elk 600 00:43:00,079 --> 00:43:02,480 he killed during that trip because he was going to illegally use his tag in 601 00:43:02,519 --> 00:43:08,000 another hunt. Oh nice. This marine had a previous warning from a wildlife 602 00:43:08,079 --> 00:43:13,920 law enforcement officer for harming a kit fox, and on his phone that was 603 00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:17,760 seized during this investigation were photos of the dead bear and the elk that he 604 00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:22,480 poached, along with pictures of a bald eagle carcass that he claims he did 605 00:43:22,519 --> 00:43:27,360 not kill, which I'll give you that by side, John, I'll take 606 00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:30,880 a picture with two. I don't know. This guy was found guilty of 607 00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:34,800 wasting an elk under Wyoming state law and had to pay a six hundred and 608 00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:38,360 forty dollars fine, but a federal prosecutor declined to bring charges under the Endangered 609 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:44,960 Species Act, so this guy faced no consequences for desecrating a protected bear, 610 00:43:45,639 --> 00:43:50,280 and the dismemberment of the bear was also apparently not enough for the US Attorney's 611 00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:53,280 office to take the case, and because there was no direct witnesses and the 612 00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:59,360 victim is a dead bear, it would be next to impossible to disprove his 613 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:07,400 case. So this guy, what I am gathering is if he wasn't actually 614 00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:09,440 attacked by this bear, then he killed it because he didn't want around him 615 00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:12,840 as he was hunting, and then said like, oh, it was attacking 616 00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:15,320 me, because how is anyone going to prove it? Even though he had 617 00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:17,480 like no sorts of cuts or anything on him, which I will say, 618 00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:22,519 we have covered cases before where people are out hunting and a bear charges them, 619 00:44:22,599 --> 00:44:25,679 they kill it in self defense. That's totally fair. But from what 620 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:30,199 this guy was saying and had done the past, it just seemed like it 621 00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:32,800 was a little bullshit. Frankly, Yeah, I mean you had to get 622 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:37,119 charged for something for Stanley claw right, Like that is a straight up illegal 623 00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:39,280 I don't understand that. How is he not getting kind of pusmory. I 624 00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:44,400 don't understand that either. Yeah, that is super weird to me. I 625 00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:46,119 don't know if I was was attacked by an animal, my first thought wouldn't 626 00:44:46,119 --> 00:44:49,239 be like, oh man, I can remember this moment, let me chop 627 00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:52,480 off piece of its foot. He's a marine. That makes sense. That 628 00:44:52,519 --> 00:44:55,840 adds up. But yeah, so I want to throw that in there because, 629 00:44:55,880 --> 00:45:00,679 like, I want to think that animals are really safe when they're on 630 00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:04,119 the endangered species list. But it sucks that someone could be like, oh, 631 00:45:04,119 --> 00:45:07,159 well, this wolf was trying to attack me, so I shot it. 632 00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:09,440 Even if you just hate them, yeah, yeah, but you can't 633 00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:13,960 prove it. You can't prove that he lot. It's just unless you have 634 00:45:14,079 --> 00:45:15,559 the evidence, you can't. You can't charge someone if you can't prove it, 635 00:45:15,559 --> 00:45:17,800 like it just is what it is. That's yeah, And the burden 636 00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:22,440 of proof is always on the prosecutor. The defense is just to be like, 637 00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:24,719 actually we didn't. They don't have to prove who did or what happened, 638 00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:30,519 so silence will save you. So we covered a ton of ground here, 639 00:45:30,679 --> 00:45:34,119 but before we go, I wanted to remind you all of this. 640 00:45:35,159 --> 00:45:38,840 Twenty twenty four is an election year. Even if you hate your options for 641 00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:45,440 presidential candidates, it is just as important, possibly even more important, that 642 00:45:45,519 --> 00:45:50,119 you vote at the local and state level. Those people are supposed to represent 643 00:45:50,199 --> 00:45:54,320 you. They make contacting them super inconvenient so that they don't have to be 644 00:45:54,360 --> 00:46:00,519 inconvenienced by your opinions, but we vote them in. They work us, 645 00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:04,519 So don't forget that when you vote for people. Vote for someone who gives 646 00:46:04,559 --> 00:46:07,880 a shit about the wild world and make sure that they remember why we put 647 00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:12,199 them there. That's it. Yeah, Hell, I just I don't know. 648 00:46:12,199 --> 00:46:14,559 This episode maybe so angry and I'm just fucking mad about it. And 649 00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:17,599 politics sucks. So vote people in that don't suck, right, that's at 650 00:46:17,679 --> 00:46:21,880 least. Oh yeah, yeah, I guess I'll say. A resolution for 651 00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,440 me for twenty twenty four is like, look more into who I'm voting for 652 00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:28,000 and make sure that they care about the things that I care about, And 653 00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:30,039 if they have a different opinion, write to them and be like, hey, 654 00:46:30,519 --> 00:46:34,480 what's your Or if they haven't you said something that you care about, 655 00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:37,639 be like, hey, what is your thoughts on this? Like how would 656 00:46:37,639 --> 00:46:38,880 you handle this? Oh? Yeah, And especially if you're in a state 657 00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:42,400 like Colorado, if you're in a state like New Mexico, New Hampshire, 658 00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:45,119 we don't really have a ton of endangered species that people are like bitchy about. 659 00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:50,920 Make sure you are voting for people who care and who will do the 660 00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:53,440 work. If there's sketchy stuff going on. It's a big deal, that's 661 00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:57,480 it. Oh yeah, So in our next episode, we're gonna be talking 662 00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:00,679 about rescuing wildlife and the dangers that come along with it with an incredible guest. 663 00:47:01,599 --> 00:47:05,800 So I guess like the theme for the next few episodes are like how 664 00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:09,559 humans kind of harm animals and how we can stop doing that if possible, 665 00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:13,320 which is kind of the flip of what this podcast is about. But we 666 00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:15,559 still will talk about animal tax i promise. Hell yeah. Thank you all 667 00:47:15,599 --> 00:47:20,199 so much for listening to episode sixty nine of Get a Live, Happy New 668 00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:23,199 Year. We'll see you in two weeks with that episode I was just talking 669 00:47:23,199 --> 00:47:28,119 about. But until then, you can find us on Instagram at gattleipod, 670 00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:30,880 Facebook, Gatlife Podcast. Oh my god, what are all our socials? 671 00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:36,519 It has been so long? Uh Twitter, I'm at the Angryologist. You 672 00:47:36,519 --> 00:47:39,719 can find our website ata lifepodcast dot com. Everything's in the episode description on 673 00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:44,639 check us on Patreon, where you can get the bonus episode that'll be our 674 00:47:44,639 --> 00:47:47,079 wrap up twenty twenty three. Thank you so much Josh Watsh for making our 675 00:47:47,079 --> 00:47:51,639 inter music. Thank you Jesse Walsh his brother for doing a lot of the 676 00:47:51,639 --> 00:47:54,360 heavy lifting in the audio and video stuff. And yeah, we'll be back 677 00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:58,400 in two weeks with a great guest. We'll see you then, Bruce, 678 00:47:58,679 --> 00:47:59,280 Happy New Year,