WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.919 --> 00:00:05.559 All right, we're live. Greetings everyone, This is David R. Hunt 2 00:00:05.599 --> 00:00:10.439 today. I have a very great guests with me today. A good friend 3 00:00:10.439 --> 00:00:13.439 of mine. I don't think he needs any introduction in my channel, but 4 00:00:13.560 --> 00:00:17.280 Jay Dyer is with me, the soy Master, the soy face Master. 5 00:00:18.640 --> 00:00:21.600 Hello, Jay, thank you for thank you for joining me in this stream. 6 00:00:21.640 --> 00:00:23.480 And I was basically just thinking, you know, we can kind of 7 00:00:23.480 --> 00:00:26.640 just talk about pretty much anything. So if you have people in the live 8 00:00:26.760 --> 00:00:30.039 chat, if you have any questions, anything that you want us to talk 9 00:00:30.079 --> 00:00:34.320 about, make sure to write stuff, make sure to share the stream. 10 00:00:34.479 --> 00:00:38.399 And before we get into the stream, is there anything you want to kind 11 00:00:38.399 --> 00:00:43.479 of mention before we start. Yeah, thanks for having glad to be back. 12 00:00:43.560 --> 00:00:47.240 We haven't had a We had a chat about drama, you know, 13 00:00:47.600 --> 00:00:51.240 a couple months ago, so it's nice to be back and chatting about you 14 00:00:51.280 --> 00:00:56.679 know, normal dude things. So things coming out. We've got the Orthodox 15 00:00:56.759 --> 00:01:00.240 Italy pilgrimage. If you go to my channel, you'll see there's a a 16 00:01:00.359 --> 00:01:06.120 one minute video up about that. There's links that take you to the website 17 00:01:06.159 --> 00:01:08.439 for my priest. You can reach out to Father Vladimir if anybody's interested. 18 00:01:08.519 --> 00:01:14.400 So it's like a couple of week ten days. I think in November you 19 00:01:14.439 --> 00:01:17.760 can get all the information there if you guys want to go. I recommend 20 00:01:17.799 --> 00:01:19.480 that it's going to be a lot of fun. It's not I mean, 21 00:01:19.480 --> 00:01:23.799 it's gonna be high quality, you know, saying in nice places. We're 22 00:01:23.840 --> 00:01:29.400 not slumming it. We're gonna be seeing a lot of really good Orthodox sites. 23 00:01:30.519 --> 00:01:33.400 Love it. So why why are you doing Italy? Isn't it Roman 24 00:01:33.439 --> 00:01:38.280 Catholic? Yeah? I know that, But so my priest has a connection 25 00:01:38.400 --> 00:01:46.719 to the Florence Florentine Academy of Arts there and they teach the Renaissance style of 26 00:01:47.239 --> 00:01:52.079 art, and he's worked with that school for a long time. Andre Tarkovsky 27 00:01:52.519 --> 00:01:55.239 it teaches there as well. I think he has a connection to that school 28 00:01:55.239 --> 00:01:57.439 too. So he spent a lot of time in Florence, and so he 29 00:01:57.480 --> 00:02:00.359 knows a lot of people in Italy. And there's actually, you know, 30 00:02:00.480 --> 00:02:06.040 several Orthodox churches and sites in Italy. People won't know that, but in 31 00:02:06.079 --> 00:02:09.879 fact there's a giant Russian Orthodox cathedral there were that will be at But also, 32 00:02:10.120 --> 00:02:15.800 I mean Italy has you know, a thousand years of Christianity where it 33 00:02:15.919 --> 00:02:20.680 was Orthodox, you know, going back to when Paul writes the Letter to 34 00:02:20.719 --> 00:02:24.360 the Romans. So there's a long history of Orthodox Italy and a lot of 35 00:02:24.360 --> 00:02:28.840 those sites that we're going to will be that. Obviously, some of the 36 00:02:28.879 --> 00:02:32.039 sites are now Roman Catholic, but they're still relevant to us as Orthodox because 37 00:02:32.080 --> 00:02:38.599 they have, you know, relics of Orthodox saints. So it's going to 38 00:02:38.680 --> 00:02:42.319 be a great time. And if anybody's interested, it's getting down now, 39 00:02:42.639 --> 00:02:46.599 down to the deadline. So you need to go ahead and sign up if 40 00:02:46.599 --> 00:02:51.680 you do think you want to. If you want to go, yeah, 41 00:02:51.719 --> 00:02:53.759 and you know I might. I might also peer there. Who knows, 42 00:02:53.840 --> 00:02:59.759 that's a that's a possibility as well. I also have something to announce this 43 00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:05.759 specially fans of Phish Tank, fans of Sam Hyde might know this guest. 44 00:03:06.199 --> 00:03:12.840 I have an interview at a podcast episode scheduled with John from Phish Tank. 45 00:03:13.319 --> 00:03:16.759 I kind of he basically was kind of my favorite character pretty much. I 46 00:03:16.800 --> 00:03:21.639 really enjoyed just like looking at the antics that he did and stuff like that. 47 00:03:22.840 --> 00:03:25.719 And the show recently ended, right, so we're gonna do the well. 48 00:03:25.840 --> 00:03:30.000 We initially we agreed on June eight, but he wanted to reschedule to 49 00:03:30.199 --> 00:03:37.240 June fourteenth. So we're gonna do a so we're gonna have a conversation one 50 00:03:37.319 --> 00:03:42.479 pm Est June fourteenth with John from Phish Tanks. I definitely don't miss out 51 00:03:42.599 --> 00:03:46.960 on that as well. And that's pretty much yeah, that's pretty much what 52 00:03:47.039 --> 00:03:51.360 I had in mind. And thank you too. Sis Pilgrim from the twenty 53 00:03:51.360 --> 00:03:57.000 dollars were already kind of starting strong. I was thinking of kind of just 54 00:03:57.039 --> 00:04:00.240 starting this with a with a question that I kind of prepare before the stream. 55 00:04:00.280 --> 00:04:02.879 But we've got a ten dollars super chat, and I kind of think 56 00:04:02.960 --> 00:04:06.159 actually kind of have to, like, you know, since he super chat, 57 00:04:06.319 --> 00:04:09.919 I think it's it will be good to kind of like start with this 58 00:04:11.319 --> 00:04:15.439 and butch paradise ten dollars, he asked. I often hear that Calvin made 59 00:04:15.439 --> 00:04:19.000 the penal substitution, but Saint John that Damascus Act Exposition book three, chapter 60 00:04:19.040 --> 00:04:23.120 twenty seven seems to say the same thing. So I think Jay, you 61 00:04:23.160 --> 00:04:27.800 will especially kind of know I have I have a chapter twenty seven, Book 62 00:04:27.839 --> 00:04:30.439 three like pulled up, so I can read that part if you want me 63 00:04:30.480 --> 00:04:33.519 to. But seems like from from like a very basic perspeadive, seems like 64 00:04:33.600 --> 00:04:38.720 kind of like a mistake on the words and confusion of the words and concepts. 65 00:04:38.720 --> 00:04:44.800 But you want to get into that, Jay, Yeah, so sometimes 66 00:04:44.839 --> 00:04:46.360 the set like you said, yeah, the same words are used, but 67 00:04:46.360 --> 00:04:50.720 they don't mean or signify the same thing. So I know that section of 68 00:04:50.759 --> 00:04:56.800 the exposition very well. And he does talk about there being a sense in 69 00:04:56.839 --> 00:05:00.839 which the punishment, which is the debts. You could say, you can 70 00:05:00.959 --> 00:05:05.120 use this language, there's no problem with that. But the idea between Calvin's 71 00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:10.000 notion of the punishment and what John Damascus calls the punishment is totally different. 72 00:05:10.040 --> 00:05:13.920 For example, John Damascus makes it clear that the punishment has nothing to do 73 00:05:14.000 --> 00:05:16.639 with a spiritual death. It's nothing to do with damnation. The sun is 74 00:05:16.680 --> 00:05:21.199 not cut off from the Father. It's the severing of the human soul from 75 00:05:21.199 --> 00:05:26.519 the human body. And that's what he undergoes at the cross, and he 76 00:05:26.600 --> 00:05:31.560 does that to enter into the Kingdom of Hades. In the soul that he 77 00:05:31.639 --> 00:05:36.079 has, the divine person has the human soul. He enters into that kingdom. 78 00:05:36.120 --> 00:05:39.800 And by the way, I just did a long two hour talk. 79 00:05:39.920 --> 00:05:43.920 I was invited to Antiochian Men's event. I did a two hour talk on 80 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:46.000 the descent into Hades, and this very point in this very chapter. So 81 00:05:46.360 --> 00:05:48.800 it's still freshened my mind. If anybody wants, you can go to my 82 00:05:48.879 --> 00:05:53.000 rock fan and you can listen to that whole two hour talk we did. 83 00:05:53.519 --> 00:05:59.079 But yeah, so that's totally different than what the notion of the penal substitution 84 00:05:59.199 --> 00:06:02.920 is in John Calvin, because Calvin does have the view that the eternal debt 85 00:06:03.000 --> 00:06:09.759 of damnation and spiritual death is something that the son is taking upon himself for 86 00:06:09.879 --> 00:06:15.120 us as a divine person. I don't know that Calvin that really clarifies that 87 00:06:15.199 --> 00:06:18.639 it doesn't really make any sense. But this goes back to Anselm's idea. 88 00:06:18.759 --> 00:06:25.959 So even though Anselm didn't have the full on developed reformed in Lutheran theology of 89 00:06:26.040 --> 00:06:30.360 penal substitution, Anselm is the birthplace of this idea for the West, and 90 00:06:30.399 --> 00:06:34.879 it has to do with the infinite debt infinite payment model. So we offended 91 00:06:34.920 --> 00:06:40.360 an infinite God with our sin. It needs there needs to be a divine 92 00:06:40.439 --> 00:06:44.199 infinite payment from the son to pay the Father. First of all, that's 93 00:06:44.199 --> 00:06:49.519 not trinitarian. And there's an eleventh century Byzantine Synod that deals with this error 94 00:06:49.560 --> 00:06:54.800 that the offering is not from the son to the Father. The son is 95 00:06:54.839 --> 00:06:58.240 offering his human nature to the whole triad. That's the only way to have 96 00:06:58.360 --> 00:07:02.959 this transactional offering model in the Eucharist, or just go in the liturgy, 97 00:07:03.120 --> 00:07:08.639 make any sense, So that alone refutes the reform view of it. But 98 00:07:09.319 --> 00:07:12.279 just to make it really clear, as we've always pointed out, you cannot 99 00:07:12.360 --> 00:07:16.680 say that the Sun undergoes any kind of damnation or rejection of the Father because 100 00:07:17.040 --> 00:07:20.920 for many reasons, but one would be the Santi Trinitarian right, So the 101 00:07:21.000 --> 00:07:27.439 son can't lose the indwelling of the Father or the Holy Spirit. He's a 102 00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:30.720 divine person, and so it would split the Trinity, it would destroy the 103 00:07:30.759 --> 00:07:32.879 whole you know, triad if you did this. So no, it is 104 00:07:32.920 --> 00:07:36.240 not John. And if you if you read the rest of book three, 105 00:07:36.519 --> 00:07:42.519 you will notice that when he talks about the descent into Hades, there's nothing 106 00:07:42.519 --> 00:07:46.800 to do with John Calvin. John Calvin does not believe that Jesus as the 107 00:07:46.839 --> 00:07:50.000 divine person to the human soul which has been suffered from the body, that 108 00:07:50.079 --> 00:07:55.399 he descends into a realm of Hades, preaches the Gospel to the dead and 109 00:07:55.439 --> 00:07:58.720 then harrows the hero wing of Hades. John Calvin does not believe that, 110 00:07:59.000 --> 00:08:03.040 so totally different. Yeah, And I want to add a quote from Saint 111 00:08:03.079 --> 00:08:05.480 John Damascus, because I remember reading this from book four, So this is 112 00:08:05.560 --> 00:08:11.480 from book four, chapter eighteen, and this definitely shows you that Saint John's 113 00:08:11.560 --> 00:08:16.000 views very different from the reform. He says, for neither for neither as 114 00:08:16.120 --> 00:08:20.279 God nor as man, was he ever forsaken by the Father? Nor did 115 00:08:20.279 --> 00:08:24.639 he become sin or a curse appropriating then or person and ranking himself with us. 116 00:08:24.639 --> 00:08:28.439 He used these words. So the basic idea is that these are terms 117 00:08:28.560 --> 00:08:33.559 used for Christ by appropriation. Yes, right, but he did not become 118 00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:37.200 curse, He did not become damn. He Saint John explicitly says, very 119 00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:41.159 clear says he was never forsaken by the Father. Whereas you know, this 120 00:08:41.240 --> 00:08:46.559 idea of the father damning the son is very much in you know, Reformed 121 00:08:46.600 --> 00:08:48.480 theology. So I will I will kind of add that as an answer. 122 00:08:48.519 --> 00:08:54.720 It's very clearly shows that this is not a concept or a belief in the 123 00:08:54.720 --> 00:08:56.960 early Church fathers. And as you said, it's quite anti trinitarian. I 124 00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:01.440 mean, it will also mean that the Sun damns undammed himself as well, 125 00:09:01.559 --> 00:09:05.159 which again, is this kind of weird metaphysic behind it doesn't that separates the 126 00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:13.240 trinity and ends up having a triteistic view where the father acts against the son 127 00:09:13.440 --> 00:09:16.840 as if the son is a foreigner to the father, as if the son 128 00:09:18.080 --> 00:09:22.799 is opposed to the father. This is as as you said. The other 129 00:09:22.799 --> 00:09:24.639 options would be to say, oh, well, I guess Jesus was just 130 00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:30.759 a human being who was punished in this way, But that would be Aryan 131 00:09:30.919 --> 00:09:37.159 or Nestorian to have a split between between the subjects in Christ. So either 132 00:09:37.200 --> 00:09:43.120 way you cut it, it's it's anti trinitarian or it's Christological nonsense. Yeah, 133 00:09:43.159 --> 00:09:48.120 pretty much. So I think that sufficiently answers the question regarding this. 134 00:09:48.440 --> 00:09:52.759 And as I said, people in the live chat, you can kind of 135 00:09:52.039 --> 00:09:54.879 if you want us to talk about a specific topic, a specific question, 136 00:09:54.919 --> 00:09:58.399 you can you can drop this. But if you want your question to be 137 00:09:58.440 --> 00:10:03.080 definitely answered, and yes it's super chat, will be will guarantee that for 138 00:10:03.200 --> 00:10:07.120 sure. A question that I kind of want to start with in this stream, 139 00:10:07.200 --> 00:10:11.279 kind of like a more basic question, is well, I kind of 140 00:10:11.399 --> 00:10:13.600 was thinking about maybe we can talk a little bit about just why people should 141 00:10:13.639 --> 00:10:18.519 be Orthodox and also what are the issues that just people in general are facing, 142 00:10:18.679 --> 00:10:22.720 specifically men are facing today. So the first question I had in mind 143 00:10:22.720 --> 00:10:24.559 that we can kind of talk about because I kind of have my own thoughts 144 00:10:24.919 --> 00:10:28.679 regarding this. But aside from the fact that it is true, because a 145 00:10:28.679 --> 00:10:31.799 lot of people, especially when they get into ortodox, they don't really think 146 00:10:31.799 --> 00:10:35.240 this way or any religion. They kind of they don't really think, oh, 147 00:10:35.279 --> 00:10:37.039 it's true. They think of it as like, oh, how useful 148 00:10:37.080 --> 00:10:41.120 it is or how based it is. Right, aside from the fact that 149 00:10:41.159 --> 00:10:48.000 it is true, why should one become orthodox? And what does it do 150 00:10:48.200 --> 00:10:52.240 to help you with the problems and the issues that we face in the world, 151 00:10:52.399 --> 00:10:58.360 Like what what is your take on this? Yeah, I think for 152 00:10:58.519 --> 00:11:03.240 guys like us, we're mainly concerned with, you know, this or that 153 00:11:03.320 --> 00:11:05.440 issue. Is it true? Is it false? You know? If you 154 00:11:05.519 --> 00:11:07.960 if you're really interested in what's true, then these kinds of things will definitely 155 00:11:09.000 --> 00:11:11.480 resonate with you. But there's all these other things that go along with it, 156 00:11:11.600 --> 00:11:15.639 right, I mean, it's not just a matter of objective truth and 157 00:11:15.759 --> 00:11:20.320 a propositional knowledge. It's a question of really a renovation of your whole life. 158 00:11:20.399 --> 00:11:28.879 And so in my experience, is something that is constantly sort of invading 159 00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:33.600 and hammering at me when I am always wanting to go off in my own 160 00:11:33.639 --> 00:11:37.360 direction and be kind of you know, sinful, be self absorbed, to 161 00:11:37.399 --> 00:11:41.600 be you know, concerned with what I want. Like something will happen to 162 00:11:41.679 --> 00:11:46.000 kind of constantly sort of break you out of that and bring you back to 163 00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:50.919 confession, bring you back to communion. And a lot of that's providence. 164 00:11:50.960 --> 00:11:54.000 A lot of it is you know, spiritual warfare. All that stuff's going 165 00:11:54.039 --> 00:11:58.360 on. So I think that it's what am I trying to say, it's 166 00:11:58.399 --> 00:12:05.720 like the true version of a twelve step self improvement program. Like it's not 167 00:12:05.879 --> 00:12:09.279 I mean, I'm not trying to reduce it to the it's not just the 168 00:12:09.440 --> 00:12:13.360 moral thing that makes you a better person or whatever. But like all the 169 00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:16.080 red pill dudes, and when I see you know, the manosphere and the 170 00:12:16.120 --> 00:12:20.159 Tate sphere and the you know, the people that hate them, and it's 171 00:12:20.159 --> 00:12:22.759 like all the things that these people are grasping for that like they'll get a 172 00:12:22.759 --> 00:12:26.159 little piece of the truth and then it's like that's it, right. So 173 00:12:26.200 --> 00:12:30.919 I think that really what we have is is that the totality picture of what 174 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:35.000 all of these different spheres are looking for and grasping for. We have that, 175 00:12:35.320 --> 00:12:39.320 and so why is it? Why would I be orthodox? Because I 176 00:12:39.320 --> 00:12:48.879 mean beyond it being true, Like I can't see any other narrative or mythos 177 00:12:48.360 --> 00:12:54.799 or story that actually makes sense of the past, my life, the future, 178 00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:58.320 your life, right, what's going on in the world, your politics, 179 00:12:58.360 --> 00:13:01.759 Like it really has the big picture explanation for everything. Um, it's 180 00:13:01.799 --> 00:13:09.320 a like I said, it's going to force you to constantly work to improve 181 00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:16.000 yourself in the most literal sense of the word. Um, it forces you 182 00:13:16.039 --> 00:13:22.879 to reorganize your relationships, like how you deal with people. I don't mean 183 00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:26.759 in the sense of like are you mean or are you nice? That's not 184 00:13:26.759 --> 00:13:28.440 what I'm talking about. But I'm talking about dealing with people in the in 185 00:13:28.720 --> 00:13:33.559 like in a just way. Are you being just to people? Are you 186 00:13:33.679 --> 00:13:37.120 being loving in the true sense? Are you being humble in the true sense? 187 00:13:37.679 --> 00:13:41.600 Because I think you know you and I have a conception of what it 188 00:13:41.679 --> 00:13:46.240 is to be humble, what it is to be fair to people that's very 189 00:13:46.279 --> 00:13:48.240 different than a lot of other people. And I think that they don't. 190 00:13:48.679 --> 00:13:54.879 They see us as mean or as very matter of fact or whatever. But 191 00:13:54.399 --> 00:13:58.639 for us like, that's that's how we should treat people, right, we 192 00:13:58.679 --> 00:14:05.399 should treat people in a way that's loving but firm. Right. So I 193 00:14:05.399 --> 00:14:09.919 think that a lot of people have different, just way off conceptions about how 194 00:14:09.960 --> 00:14:15.000 we ought to operate with people, how we should treat people. And Orthodox 195 00:14:15.039 --> 00:14:18.360 he really does reirient you to treat people in a different way. But that 196 00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:22.279 doesn't mean that, oh that just you're not nice, like you're going to 197 00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:24.759 be super nice. Now you're gonna be super this and you're gonna talk like 198 00:14:24.840 --> 00:14:28.519 this to people. That's that's not what humility is. That's not what spirituality 199 00:14:28.639 --> 00:14:35.120 is. That's a false affectation that people have to give the appearance of being 200 00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:39.120 pious and humble, piety signaling and all this kind of stuff. And you 201 00:14:39.159 --> 00:14:41.879 know, if you look in scripture, there's one text that I always come 202 00:14:41.960 --> 00:14:45.080 to mind when I think about this. I think it's in Luke. It's 203 00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:50.960 where Jesus says that the Pharisees they judge people on these kind of externals, 204 00:14:52.879 --> 00:14:58.600 and he says that the things that are highly esteemed amongst men, he says, 205 00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:01.519 are abominable to God. So what are the things that are highly esteemed 206 00:15:01.519 --> 00:15:05.480 amongst men going along, to getting along, to get along, being nice, 207 00:15:05.960 --> 00:15:11.200 right, this kind of stuff, And that's what Jesus says is you 208 00:15:11.240 --> 00:15:16.639 know, God doesn't care for that. So I think what I'm getting at 209 00:15:16.759 --> 00:15:20.080 is that in the long run, orthodoxy is it's going to constantly force you 210 00:15:20.200 --> 00:15:26.159 to reorient yourself and everything in your life, Like the way that you relate 211 00:15:26.200 --> 00:15:28.279 to people, the way you relate to God, the way that you look 212 00:15:28.279 --> 00:15:31.399 at the world, your world or your paradigm, how you are trying to 213 00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:37.759 better yourself. All those things come into play. And my life has definitely 214 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:41.240 been better. I mean, the struggles and the problems don't go away. 215 00:15:41.320 --> 00:15:45.279 You get different problems. And you know, you and I did a stream 216 00:15:45.320 --> 00:15:48.559 a long time ago that a lot of people really could have benefited from if 217 00:15:48.559 --> 00:15:50.480 they had paid attention to it. We were talking about traps along the way, 218 00:15:50.919 --> 00:15:54.720 because when you become Orthodox, it's not like, oh, Okay, 219 00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:58.879 I'm Orthodox and everything's good. Now. There's a whole new set of traps 220 00:15:58.200 --> 00:16:04.159 and temptations that you have that a lot of us have seen, a lot 221 00:16:04.159 --> 00:16:07.919 of us have seen people go down. You know, Oh I'm gonna be 222 00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:11.960 this radical, true Orthodox person. Oh I'm gonna go into Roman edies to 223 00:16:11.120 --> 00:16:17.080 the extreme. Well I'm into David Billy Harden universalism or I'm into whatever else. 224 00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:23.200 Right, there's all these different like pathways that will lead you off of 225 00:16:23.360 --> 00:16:26.759 the correct path, and so many people get caught up in that, even 226 00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:30.600 when you warn them about it like that, they go down these roads anyway, 227 00:16:32.240 --> 00:16:34.919 that's not German really to your question, Um, I feel like I'm 228 00:16:36.039 --> 00:16:38.360 rambling, but you know that that's that's the thoughts I have on the spot, 229 00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:41.759 like what is it? Why? Why would I do it? Well, 230 00:16:41.799 --> 00:16:47.080 beyond it being true, it's it's really like the healing of your your 231 00:16:47.120 --> 00:16:51.399 whole being ultimately, but it's not something that happens right away. You know, 232 00:16:51.519 --> 00:16:53.279 somebody was saying to me the other day, you were mean in a 233 00:16:53.399 --> 00:16:59.360 comment to somebody on you on Twitter. So orthodox you hasn't changed you at 234 00:16:59.399 --> 00:17:03.000 all in four or five or six years. And I'm like, so, 235 00:17:03.639 --> 00:17:06.440 so if I make one mistake in a Twitter, which by the way, 236 00:17:06.440 --> 00:17:07.799 I don't even think what I said was that mean, But let's say I 237 00:17:07.880 --> 00:17:14.400 was being mean on a tweet, does that invalidate all of like, you 238 00:17:14.440 --> 00:17:17.799 know what I mean, all of one's spiritual journey for five or six years. 239 00:17:17.960 --> 00:17:21.160 That's crazy. Yeah, you're going to be battling the passions your whole 240 00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:23.480 life. I mean there's monastics who said that, you know, they were 241 00:17:23.799 --> 00:17:29.519 still struggling with lust to their death. Been m Yeah. A couple of 242 00:17:29.519 --> 00:17:34.200 things I'd also like to add in regards to this is that for the last 243 00:17:34.240 --> 00:17:38.319 couple like veeks, maybe even months, I've kind of been reading some like 244 00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:42.599 texts and articles on virtuetix, and I think it's kind of is relevant on 245 00:17:42.640 --> 00:17:45.759 this topic because a lot of people think when it comes to ethics and morality 246 00:17:45.799 --> 00:17:48.680 and being a good person, they think, if you do X y Z 247 00:17:49.119 --> 00:17:57.359 all actions, Oh can you hear me? Oh kay? Yeah, can 248 00:17:57.359 --> 00:18:06.039 you meet your mike because I can hear it from the all right, So 249 00:18:06.039 --> 00:18:10.359 I was got a call from an important thing and then this microphone has a 250 00:18:10.440 --> 00:18:12.440 short in it. Go ahead, Sorry, okay, okay, Yeah. 251 00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:15.680 I was just saying that it's a lot of people think that doing good things 252 00:18:17.160 --> 00:18:19.839 is like a checklist X y Z checklist and all of that, But it's 253 00:18:19.880 --> 00:18:25.400 about the character and disposition that you're that the things that you do reflects and 254 00:18:25.400 --> 00:18:29.440 harmonizes fit. Right, So they think a lot of people just assume that 255 00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:33.440 one action you do kind of just defines your whole character, right, whereas 256 00:18:33.559 --> 00:18:36.960 really it's your character that defines your actions in the first place. It's the 257 00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:41.759 other way around. And with Orthodoxy, it is that character, that disposition. 258 00:18:41.319 --> 00:18:47.519 You're trying to restore that disposition to the virtues that God himself naturally has 259 00:18:47.559 --> 00:18:49.319 that are communicated to you. And that's what repentance is. And this is 260 00:18:49.319 --> 00:18:52.759 why people will be making mistakes, but they will also be trying to attain 261 00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:59.000 the likeness of God through asceticism to uh, you know, fighting against the 262 00:18:59.039 --> 00:19:03.559 passions and so and so forth. So there's this very wrong conception that even 263 00:19:03.559 --> 00:19:06.960 a lot of ortodox people have regarding this. Another thing that I'd like to 264 00:19:07.079 --> 00:19:10.200 know is that when it comes to what is a true religion what is not, 265 00:19:10.519 --> 00:19:12.240 A lot of people look at it by oh, how base it is. 266 00:19:12.279 --> 00:19:15.759 And in that sense, you know, Orthodoxy is good on that front. 267 00:19:15.319 --> 00:19:19.640 But the issue is a lot of people they try to they try to 268 00:19:19.640 --> 00:19:22.599 look at what the true religion is by looking at like the evil and the 269 00:19:22.599 --> 00:19:26.480 demonic stuff in this world, and then they say to themselves, Okay, 270 00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:30.319 which religion combats against this stuff the best? That's not the most correct way 271 00:19:30.359 --> 00:19:33.680 to look at it. You'd rather want to look at it in this way. 272 00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:34.759 You want to look at it in the way. Okay, what religion 273 00:19:34.799 --> 00:19:38.680 allows me to engage me to combat against it in the best possible way. 274 00:19:40.119 --> 00:19:41.240 Because a lot of people, for example, they look at the evil things 275 00:19:41.240 --> 00:19:45.599 in the world, and then they become convinced that there's there's a there's a 276 00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:51.400 god like Entertained for example, Right, but then he becomes Muslim because in 277 00:19:51.480 --> 00:19:56.319 his opinion, the most sensible religion when it comes to morality and stuff like 278 00:19:56.400 --> 00:20:00.279 that is isla. Well, one might, for example, a lot of 279 00:20:00.440 --> 00:20:03.720 whatever choice he makes, right, whatever choice anyone makes, they might be 280 00:20:03.799 --> 00:20:07.759 deceived by these demonic beings that they're trying to get away from. Right, 281 00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:11.039 I mean, demonic stuff isn't just like in the movies where like you get 282 00:20:11.079 --> 00:20:14.920 possessed or you know, even just jumps into your face and scares you and 283 00:20:14.960 --> 00:20:18.559 does a little cool jump scared. That's not really, that's not really how 284 00:20:18.599 --> 00:20:22.640 it works. It's deception, right, And so people can be deceived if 285 00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:26.720 they act on their own accord instead of protecting themselves against these influences. And 286 00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:30.599 so this I think is something that a lot of people miss out on then 287 00:20:30.759 --> 00:20:33.440 comes to looking at, Okay, what's the true fate? Why should I 288 00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:36.319 be in this revision? And so I will say, and I will definitely 289 00:20:36.359 --> 00:20:40.000 agree with you, and I will kind of add that the reason why one 290 00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:44.799 should be Orthodox is because Orthodox he really gears you against the demonic forces, 291 00:20:44.920 --> 00:20:48.960 demonic delusions, and aside from being the truth, it is the one religion 292 00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:52.519 that allows you to do this and allows you to develop and even claims to 293 00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:57.839 develop you into having the same virtues and character that God himself has, which 294 00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:02.000 is very radical to to say, but this is just an affirmation of man 295 00:21:02.039 --> 00:21:03.680 being made not only in the image but also in the likeness of God, 296 00:21:03.880 --> 00:21:08.400 and at the end of the life of man is to be deified by the 297 00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:14.079 grace of God. Right, so that Orthodox is really even the only religion 298 00:21:14.119 --> 00:21:17.839 that even claims to do something like this. And this is how I think 299 00:21:17.839 --> 00:21:22.920 people should kind of look at it what it can really do for them in 300 00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:25.039 the in the sense that it really matters, not in the sense of, 301 00:21:25.119 --> 00:21:26.039 oh, this religion is going to make me a lot of money. Well, 302 00:21:26.119 --> 00:21:30.559 this religion is going to really develop your soul in the property because your 303 00:21:30.759 --> 00:21:33.920 body is going to die your earthly you know, the money you have on 304 00:21:33.960 --> 00:21:36.880 the earth is going to go away, but your soul is going to you 305 00:21:36.920 --> 00:21:40.640 know, still going to continue living. And the kind of the treasures that 306 00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:42.480 you have in your soul, that's what's going to matter for it turn too, 307 00:21:44.279 --> 00:21:48.920 really and that's going to define the kind of character you have both bodily 308 00:21:48.920 --> 00:21:52.680 and spiritually. Is kind of how I will how I will see this. 309 00:21:53.279 --> 00:21:56.880 Yeah, I think the you know, Islam is a good example of a 310 00:21:56.960 --> 00:22:00.400 situation where I was thinking about this the other day, Like, it doesn't 311 00:22:02.279 --> 00:22:06.720 it doesn't heal you in any way internally. There's no notion of like the 312 00:22:06.839 --> 00:22:12.599 interior man being cleansed and the interior man, you know, ridding himself of 313 00:22:12.759 --> 00:22:18.400 vice and attaining virtues. But you know, one thing that Jesus is always 314 00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:21.759 concerned with, like I was saying in that text and loop, is the 315 00:22:21.799 --> 00:22:26.319 internal state. Like you can fool everybody with doing a bunch of externals. 316 00:22:26.440 --> 00:22:30.480 Right. You can externally appear to be pious, and you can externally tweet 317 00:22:30.519 --> 00:22:33.920 about your prayers and how much you pray, and you can tweet your public 318 00:22:33.960 --> 00:22:36.519 prayers all day long. And even though Jesus says, don't do this. 319 00:22:36.599 --> 00:22:41.000 He says, to go and pray in your inner room or in your heart, 320 00:22:41.160 --> 00:22:47.119 right in your news. Then how how is that religion going to do 321 00:22:47.160 --> 00:22:52.240 anything other than make me into some kind of weird hypocrite right where I'm just 322 00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:57.000 doing my religious actions for worldly status because I think it'll make me cooler, 323 00:22:57.200 --> 00:23:02.240 get me, you know, four wives. Whatever Islam thinks right that Allah 324 00:23:02.279 --> 00:23:03.599 will bless me and I'll have a lot of money, or I don't know 325 00:23:03.640 --> 00:23:07.119 what, I'm a shake with a bunch of oil platforms. I don't know. 326 00:23:07.359 --> 00:23:14.400 But none of that really changes or effects or helps you in an interior 327 00:23:14.440 --> 00:23:17.960 way. So it's not that those things are wrong, right, there's nothing 328 00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:21.519 wrong with exterior blessings or the world or anything like that. That would be 329 00:23:21.640 --> 00:23:25.440 nastic than going in a different direction. And a lot of Protestants get into 330 00:23:25.480 --> 00:23:29.240 this really superpietistic mode where it's all about you know, they're just sitting around 331 00:23:29.279 --> 00:23:33.680 obsessing all day along about their inner devotion and you know, their inner state. 332 00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:37.240 And to me, that's also kind of a weird opposite extreme. So 333 00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:45.319 I think that the classical practice of Orthodoxy gives you a notion of the body 334 00:23:45.519 --> 00:23:48.599 is good but it has a place in a hierarchy. The soul is more 335 00:23:48.599 --> 00:23:52.359 important than the body, and the soul should steer the body. But that 336 00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:56.559 doesn't make the body bad, right, But in Islam, there's not really 337 00:23:56.599 --> 00:24:00.039 any notion of this healing of the interior man and it of the vices and 338 00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:04.200 attaining the virtues. So it's just odd to me that you have the whole 339 00:24:04.200 --> 00:24:07.839 religion based around this this idea, and to me it would just it just 340 00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:14.400 kind of it's sort of like the you know, other quote monotheistic religions. 341 00:24:15.319 --> 00:24:22.000 They just create people who are externally doing things and they never internally heal. 342 00:24:23.319 --> 00:24:26.920 Yeah, I definitely agree with that. If you got a new super check 343 00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:32.440 question by Joshua is Sonza five dollars think you, josh He asked, I 344 00:24:32.519 --> 00:24:34.720 recently heard of oc A pre say the current cannon was not affirmed by Nicki 345 00:24:34.759 --> 00:24:38.839 Michical Council and certain Russian Orthodox churches have a different cannon. Is this true? 346 00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:41.559 I think that you are definitely the expert on church of cannons on that 347 00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:45.640 front, but it was them on the canon of scripture, as you talking 348 00:24:45.680 --> 00:24:51.480 about scripture. Canon of Scripture, I definitely, yeah, I mean there's 349 00:24:52.319 --> 00:24:55.839 in the Orthodox view, there's a little more flexibility on this. So like 350 00:24:56.119 --> 00:25:00.000 the some of the Russian Bibles have i think one of the extra books of 351 00:25:02.480 --> 00:25:04.519 Esdras, so like they have like third Asras or something. So, but 352 00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:07.839 it's not that big of a deal because I mean the Orthodox Church that doesn't 353 00:25:07.880 --> 00:25:11.519 happen, don't have a Protestant view of the canon, where like there has 354 00:25:11.559 --> 00:25:15.079 to be this one statement of a canon from a list of books from the 355 00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:19.359 council, and then everything else, everything you know, hinges on that. 356 00:25:19.400 --> 00:25:23.160 Because for one, if you think about it, if the cannon is somewhat 357 00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:29.759 flexible for the first six centuries, and then then obviously we're we believe that 358 00:25:29.839 --> 00:25:33.440 people can be you know, saved even if they have you know, one 359 00:25:33.559 --> 00:25:37.480 extraitutor canonical book, or they don't even believe the durecanonical books. It's not 360 00:25:37.799 --> 00:25:40.440 you know, Saint Jerome didn't think they were canonical, but he's still a 361 00:25:40.519 --> 00:25:44.640 saint. So I'm not saying that today you're free to do whatever you want 362 00:25:44.640 --> 00:25:48.799 with the canon. But if the Russian Orthodox Church, if Russian Bibles have 363 00:25:48.839 --> 00:25:52.480 an extra Duto canonical text, I don't see why that that's any any any 364 00:25:52.519 --> 00:25:56.920 different. So but beyond that, I'm not sure exactly what he means by 365 00:25:56.680 --> 00:26:03.720 that the current canon is not the current cannon is affirmed by North by the 366 00:26:03.799 --> 00:26:07.839 echemenical councils. So that's not true. It's the sixth Council. I think 367 00:26:07.839 --> 00:26:11.480 it's the Trollo Council lists and then it's appended to the sixth Council and then 368 00:26:11.559 --> 00:26:15.000 restated in the seventh. So there is a list of canon that the Orthodox 369 00:26:15.079 --> 00:26:21.200 Church accepts. But if there's some tradition, you know where the Russians, 370 00:26:21.240 --> 00:26:23.680 for example, have this extra Book of Estros, it's not that big of 371 00:26:23.720 --> 00:26:27.880 a deal. Yeah, And I will also well, one thing I will 372 00:26:27.960 --> 00:26:30.960 kind of add is that at the end of the day, the kind of 373 00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:36.799 the doctrine that is manifested and exponses it is to the Church, because the 374 00:26:36.839 --> 00:26:40.039 Church is the pilled in ground of truth. So this this explains the distinction 375 00:26:40.759 --> 00:26:45.920 in the understanding that we have from the various different other Protestant sex on the 376 00:26:47.039 --> 00:26:51.920 cannon and h right now, just another five dollars, super Church nates tender 377 00:26:52.079 --> 00:26:57.119 asks Christ has ascended, truly He has ascended? Are there dogmatic prohibitions on 378 00:26:57.400 --> 00:27:00.680 icons of the Father? The Moscow Sennot of sixteen sixty six just is this 379 00:27:00.839 --> 00:27:04.599 but some stay was valid invalid. The main argument I will kind of say 380 00:27:04.640 --> 00:27:07.400 is that, well, sat John Damascus says, we will sin if you 381 00:27:07.519 --> 00:27:14.440 made depictions of the Father in his person. The Moscow Synad does address this, 382 00:27:14.599 --> 00:27:19.519 but at the same time believe that synod also was against the Old Right 383 00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:22.519 like completely, and we can kind of see that's not the case because we 384 00:27:22.559 --> 00:27:26.480 have canonical old Right. But how will you answer this question? I have 385 00:27:26.559 --> 00:27:30.759 I have a stream on this with Snick, But yeah, I think so 386 00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:36.039 it's true that the Moscow Synod is not an acumenical Council, but the theology 387 00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:42.559 that it exposits in its doctrines of the icons is correct because it just reflects 388 00:27:42.559 --> 00:27:45.839 what's in the Seventh Documenical Council. And the book to read on this is 389 00:27:45.880 --> 00:27:51.519 the Ospensky Losky Book, Volume two. There's multiple chapters in that that are 390 00:27:51.559 --> 00:27:55.880 really good. So yeah, this question gets asked a lot, and I 391 00:27:56.240 --> 00:27:59.480 think I can shed some light on this to help out. So basically, 392 00:28:00.640 --> 00:28:06.519 the teaching of the Seventh Council, reflecting what John Damascus says, is that 393 00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:10.680 you cannot make images of the hypostasis of the Father. So that's correct, 394 00:28:10.720 --> 00:28:12.519 we don't do that. We can't do that because Jesus says no man has 395 00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:17.160 seen the Father at any time, so we can't do that. So, 396 00:28:17.200 --> 00:28:21.519 in other words, this is very important against Roman Catholic theology because a lot 397 00:28:21.559 --> 00:28:26.480 of Roman Catholic icons, especially ones that were intended to teach the philioque by 398 00:28:26.559 --> 00:28:30.400 they were promoted by Jesuits and they were pushed into Orthodox lands. This is 399 00:28:30.440 --> 00:28:33.799 actually part of the reason the Moscow icon sent had happened, is that Jesuits 400 00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:38.720 were pushing these weird icons of like old man the Father and then Jesus and 401 00:28:38.759 --> 00:28:42.039 then the Holy Spirit, like being sent by both of them. Right, 402 00:28:44.079 --> 00:28:48.480 Well, first of all, the Father didn't become incarnate, and so it 403 00:28:48.519 --> 00:28:52.160 doesn't make any sense to picture him as an old man because he's not incarnate, 404 00:28:52.680 --> 00:28:56.319 And to picture him as an old man would be to suggest that he 405 00:28:56.400 --> 00:29:00.880 was incarnate, but he wasn't. So nobody sees the Father at any time. 406 00:29:00.039 --> 00:29:04.000 The only legitimate icon of the Father is the Son, and Jesus says 407 00:29:04.039 --> 00:29:07.759 that anyone who seeing me as seeing the Father Hebrew says, he is the 408 00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:12.079 icon of the Father. So how does this make sense. Well, the 409 00:29:12.119 --> 00:29:17.160 only legitimate portrayal that we can do of the Father is not just the Son, 410 00:29:17.319 --> 00:29:21.799 but the energetic manifestations that are proper either to the Father or to the 411 00:29:21.799 --> 00:29:25.680 Holy Spirit. Because the Moscow Icon Sentoate says the exact same thing about the 412 00:29:25.680 --> 00:29:30.200 Holy Spirit as it says about the Father. The hypostasis of the Holy Spirit 413 00:29:30.359 --> 00:29:33.920 is never incarnate. But what we do see in scripture are the energetic manifestations 414 00:29:33.960 --> 00:29:38.119 proper to the Spirit, namely tongues of fire and the presence as a dove. 415 00:29:38.680 --> 00:29:42.599 So sometimes you'll notice that we could speak of the voice that appears at 416 00:29:42.599 --> 00:29:45.640 the baptism of Christ, or that they hear the voice of the Father, 417 00:29:47.079 --> 00:29:52.000 because that's an energetic manifestation proper to the Father. And so we can talk 418 00:29:52.039 --> 00:29:55.119 about the voice, we can talk about the dove, we can talk about 419 00:29:55.119 --> 00:30:00.480 the tongues of fire, but none of those are the representation of the person 420 00:30:00.559 --> 00:30:03.720 of the Father or the Holy Spirit. The only person that can be represented 421 00:30:03.880 --> 00:30:08.640 is the Son because he became incarnate. So the icons of the Son, 422 00:30:08.759 --> 00:30:12.920 according to Saint Theodor the Studite and the Seventh Council, they do pick out 423 00:30:12.960 --> 00:30:19.799 the hypostasis of the Son, but the Ancient of Days is a unique case 424 00:30:19.839 --> 00:30:23.519 too, where it's not the it is the person of the father. The 425 00:30:23.599 --> 00:30:27.799 father will notice, it's the per ass the son. So that's why we 426 00:30:27.880 --> 00:30:33.680 can do the representation of the person of the Father through the son. In 427 00:30:33.720 --> 00:30:36.880 the Ancient of Days, it's not it's not an old man, it's a 428 00:30:36.960 --> 00:30:41.480 Christ's image that we see in Ezekiel and in Revelation one, right, Christ 429 00:30:41.480 --> 00:30:45.880 appears to John and John doesn't really recognize him because it says, you know, 430 00:30:45.960 --> 00:30:48.640 he was like a he has this angelic look where he has white hair 431 00:30:48.759 --> 00:30:55.240 and you know, he looks like this kind of like the way Ezekiel describes 432 00:30:55.319 --> 00:30:57.640 the one like a son a band that's writing the chariot. That's Christ in 433 00:30:57.680 --> 00:31:06.480 his full glory and divinity being being manifested. And so it's okay to portray 434 00:31:06.599 --> 00:31:10.319 Christ in that way in the Ancient of Days as the image of the Father. 435 00:31:10.480 --> 00:31:15.319 So there's some people have pointed out that sometimes icons can portray the idea 436 00:31:15.359 --> 00:31:18.519 of a thing and not the person itself. And so that's another way that 437 00:31:18.519 --> 00:31:19.880 we can speak of, like, for example, the words of Scripture. 438 00:31:19.960 --> 00:31:25.880 Fah er, right, that's not an incur that's not an image of the 439 00:31:25.920 --> 00:31:30.160 person. It's just a word that depicts or picks out the idea of the 440 00:31:30.200 --> 00:31:36.599 father, and that's very important to our iconographic theology. So I think the 441 00:31:36.599 --> 00:31:42.119 theological reasoning of the Moscow icons Ino is absolutely correct. And when you look 442 00:31:42.160 --> 00:31:47.880 at that book by Lasky Alspensky, you you'll see why they did this council 443 00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:53.559 because in that chapter there's a whole bunch of heterodox icons that they give examples 444 00:31:53.599 --> 00:31:57.720 of. There's like five of them, and they were getting really popular in 445 00:31:59.279 --> 00:32:04.680 Orthodox and ends at the prompting of Jesuits. Jesuits knew what they were doing 446 00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:09.160 when they were trying to get Orthodox lands to accept the Philioque by these ridiculous 447 00:32:09.160 --> 00:32:14.880 just they're just creepy, weird icons and and you can tell they're heterodox icons 448 00:32:15.400 --> 00:32:19.960 because they don't make any sense. It's like an old man holding Jesus holding 449 00:32:20.160 --> 00:32:25.160 the Holy Spirit. It's like, that's that's not the Trinity. Yeah. 450 00:32:25.200 --> 00:32:30.079 I think the point about ancient of these is especially important because I think one 451 00:32:30.119 --> 00:32:35.680 mistake that people do is that they kind of confuse the symbolic manifestation that icons 452 00:32:35.759 --> 00:32:39.160 depict and the person that is being depicted in the icons well, and the 453 00:32:39.160 --> 00:32:43.079 point is very important because this relates to the sacred heart stuff as well, 454 00:32:43.359 --> 00:32:47.079 right there, ven Weed, you know there The reason why, right, 455 00:32:47.119 --> 00:32:51.759 the reason why Christ can be depicted is because he's circumscribed in this humanity. 456 00:32:52.119 --> 00:32:54.880 But what is being depicted is not a generic human nature with a couple of 457 00:32:54.920 --> 00:33:00.279 accidental properties added on top of it. It is the person Jesus Christ. 458 00:33:00.400 --> 00:33:01.880 Right. In the same wave, when we depict, for example, Saint 459 00:33:01.960 --> 00:33:07.039 Paul, it doesn't have to necessarily look like Saint Paul has to pick out 460 00:33:07.160 --> 00:33:09.279 hypostatic properties of Saint Paul, for example, that he's the author of the 461 00:33:09.319 --> 00:33:13.519 fourteen Epistles, right, and so there will be some icons that will have 462 00:33:13.559 --> 00:33:15.920 like fourteen Epistles that Saint Paul is holding to point out that you know, 463 00:33:16.039 --> 00:33:20.920 this is indeed Saint Paul, and in things of this nature. And so 464 00:33:21.039 --> 00:33:23.920 it depends on the distinction between nature and person also energies, right, and 465 00:33:23.960 --> 00:33:29.920 so the Ancient of days and the Father is speaking, the Holy Spirit descending 466 00:33:29.920 --> 00:33:32.839 as a dove, the tongues of fire. All of these will be examples 467 00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:39.200 of the manifestation of God in the proper mode, in accordance with the person 468 00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:44.880 that is being manifested within the energies right, So with the Holy Spirit, 469 00:33:44.960 --> 00:33:49.359 right, he is being manifested in the form of a dove right in baptism, 470 00:33:49.400 --> 00:33:54.680 to signify that the Holy Spirit descends to deify the baptismal waters, that 471 00:33:54.720 --> 00:33:59.559 we will be part of right as we die in Christ. So I think 472 00:33:59.599 --> 00:34:01.200 again, as he pointed out, I think a lot of people kind of 473 00:34:01.480 --> 00:34:06.160 confuse these categories. I would be very interested though, to see I don't 474 00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:07.559 think it will be possible in this treae, but I it will be pretty 475 00:34:07.559 --> 00:34:10.800 interesting to see the examples of the heretical icons. I'm actually like to grab 476 00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:14.719 it because there's a couple that are really illustrative the books right over there. 477 00:34:14.760 --> 00:34:17.039 But yeah, to make your point, right, So if you look at 478 00:34:17.119 --> 00:34:22.480 Saint Theodore's book on the Holy Icons, you know when he when he argues 479 00:34:22.480 --> 00:34:24.920 that theology that gets accepted at the Seventh Council, he points out what you 480 00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:30.920 said, which is that the uncircumscribable right would be, for example, the 481 00:34:30.159 --> 00:34:36.079 divine essence right, the mind essence is uncircumscribable. He also says the Father 482 00:34:36.280 --> 00:34:42.360 is uncircumscribable. But what happened in the in the and ultimately in themselves. 483 00:34:42.400 --> 00:34:46.280 The persons would be circumscribable as well, except that the Sun willed to become 484 00:34:46.519 --> 00:34:52.119 circumscribable, and he willed to do that via taking on human nature. So 485 00:34:52.159 --> 00:34:57.639 the divine person of the Sun assumes a circumscribable nature which is unique to him, 486 00:34:57.679 --> 00:35:00.880 which has its own unique idiomata, which is, you know, Jesus 487 00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:02.920 had this kind of a nose, and he had this kind of a beard, 488 00:35:04.000 --> 00:35:06.760 and you know, and you look, when you look at Orthodox iconography, 489 00:35:06.800 --> 00:35:08.920 he typically kind of looks the same. And I tend to think that 490 00:35:08.920 --> 00:35:15.199 that's because Orthodox iconography really is depicting what Jesus look like, and that we 491 00:35:15.320 --> 00:35:20.400 have maintained that tradition going back to the early days. So my view, 492 00:35:21.079 --> 00:35:24.599 as I understand what the icon Council is saying, is that they really are 493 00:35:24.679 --> 00:35:32.159 balancing the Seventh Council. They're really balancing out Trinitarian and Christological theology with iconography. 494 00:35:32.199 --> 00:35:36.679 And as you pointed out, it rests on the essence energy distinction. 495 00:35:37.360 --> 00:35:38.880 I mean, it rests on other things too, like there's things between between 496 00:35:38.960 --> 00:35:42.639 nature and person. But when you read Saint Theodore's TRiDaS, it's like it's 497 00:35:42.639 --> 00:35:45.000 all the stuff that you and I are always talking about. It's the stinction 498 00:35:45.039 --> 00:35:47.559 between nature and person. It's the essencenergy distinction. It's God has one will 499 00:35:47.599 --> 00:35:50.880 because he has one nature. And say, all of that is in that 500 00:35:50.920 --> 00:35:54.880 book. It's also in John Damascus Is on the Divine Images too, except 501 00:35:54.960 --> 00:36:00.559 that John Damascus is is he's more interested in type prototype relations and it's a 502 00:36:00.559 --> 00:36:04.639 little more philosophical, whereas Saint Theodore's book is more like, well, here's 503 00:36:04.639 --> 00:36:08.360 our tradition, here's the crystological theology, here's the trinitarian theology. Uh, 504 00:36:08.559 --> 00:36:15.119 this is what it means to say that the human nature is circumscribable. But 505 00:36:15.360 --> 00:36:21.760 in a sense you could say that energetic manifestations are also in a sense circumscribable, 506 00:36:21.880 --> 00:36:24.880 because energetic manifestation is just what we're talking about when we talk about these 507 00:36:24.880 --> 00:36:30.800 theophan needs. Right, that theophanies are the energetic manifestations of the person of 508 00:36:30.800 --> 00:36:32.480 the son in the Old Testament, right, the Angel of the Lord is 509 00:36:34.039 --> 00:36:39.760 present in a preincarnate, energetic way such that it can be in a sense 510 00:36:40.280 --> 00:36:44.679 circumscribed. And so you know, we see we think of the cloud and 511 00:36:44.760 --> 00:36:47.880 the sea, the cloud and the pillar, the pillar and the cloud of 512 00:36:47.960 --> 00:36:52.920 the fire. We think of you know, the glory cloud that comes down 513 00:36:52.920 --> 00:36:59.679 in the temple. I mean, these are theophanic energetic manifestations, and they're 514 00:36:59.719 --> 00:37:04.320 not the essence of God. They're not the divine person, it's himself, 515 00:37:04.760 --> 00:37:07.360 but they're manifestations of the vine person. Right now, I'm some of the 516 00:37:07.360 --> 00:37:10.440 cloud in the case of the Angel, the Lord, that is the second 517 00:37:10.440 --> 00:37:15.960 Person himself present in an energetic way. So again, remember that that's none 518 00:37:15.960 --> 00:37:22.559 of that stuff is divorced from the iconographic theology. That's that's being argued at 519 00:37:22.599 --> 00:37:28.320 the Seventh Council and at the Moscow icon Sentods and when we understand the essencenery 520 00:37:28.360 --> 00:37:30.039 distinction and all that. Right, just think of this basic point everybody always 521 00:37:30.039 --> 00:37:35.599 makes about like in Roman Catholic imagery, the halo is above the head, 522 00:37:36.199 --> 00:37:43.199 right, it's not touching the head because that's the supernatural, beatific vision grace 523 00:37:43.239 --> 00:37:46.280 of the next life, right, because in this life you just get a 524 00:37:46.440 --> 00:37:51.559 supernatural created grace. In the Roman Catholic system, in the Orthodox view, 525 00:37:51.639 --> 00:37:55.159 the icon is behind the head because they're actually participating in the uncreated energies. 526 00:37:55.199 --> 00:38:01.280 That's the whole point of the halo. It's not above the heads completely ridiculous. 527 00:38:01.400 --> 00:38:06.559 Right, So let me show you a couple of these heterodox icons that 528 00:38:06.760 --> 00:38:09.880 the Moscow Sonata was trying to come back. Yeah. While you do that, 529 00:38:10.079 --> 00:38:15.840 I'll just feat some of the other super chats as well. Rachel Wilson, 530 00:38:15.840 --> 00:38:17.599 thank you for the five dollars super chat. Thank you both for these 531 00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:22.440 valuable videos that help people understand propertyology, or for both your videos to people 532 00:38:22.440 --> 00:38:25.039 all the time. Yeah, I see that. I appreciate it, Rachel, 533 00:38:25.079 --> 00:38:29.800 thank you for the support. Frankie D ten dollars super chat. Jay, 534 00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:31.639 my apologies for not being able to send super chats for a while. 535 00:38:31.679 --> 00:38:35.440 I might have to set up stream labs on desktop to get it to work, 536 00:38:35.480 --> 00:38:37.840 because on mobile mobile it has really been a pain. God bless well 537 00:38:39.159 --> 00:38:45.880 that, um is you want to see one? Yeah, sure, I 538 00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:49.800 appreciate that. Frankie D. Yeah, I don't know. I never tried 539 00:38:50.400 --> 00:38:52.840 stream labs on mobile. It seems to work pretty good for me though, 540 00:38:53.360 --> 00:38:57.639 um on the computer. See. So here's this one as famous. It's 541 00:38:57.639 --> 00:39:02.360 called the paternity and and uh, this is an icon that was being pushed 542 00:39:04.239 --> 00:39:07.679 in Orthodox lands and you can I mean, I think if you're Orthodox you'll 543 00:39:07.719 --> 00:39:12.000 immediately see the problem with this icon and you can look these up. I 544 00:39:12.000 --> 00:39:15.920 mean they're pretty famous. This was called the Paternity. Yeah, and this 545 00:39:15.079 --> 00:39:21.159 is the problem because number one, uh, the that's a baby Jesus. 546 00:39:21.440 --> 00:39:28.079 Okay, Now the Father shouldn't be holding a baby Jesus, right, I 547 00:39:28.119 --> 00:39:31.480 mean it's number one. It's like didd was was baby Jesus? Uh? 548 00:39:31.559 --> 00:39:36.119 Did he incarnate from the Father? No, he's from the Virgin Mary, 549 00:39:36.320 --> 00:39:39.519 right, So that's weird first of all. Secondly, again, the person 550 00:39:39.519 --> 00:39:44.280 of the Father is not an old man. He's not incarnate, right. 551 00:39:44.760 --> 00:39:51.360 And in the Ancient of Day's icon, you'll you'll recall that it's not the 552 00:39:51.360 --> 00:39:55.119 the It is depicting the idea of the Father, but it's not an old 553 00:39:55.159 --> 00:40:00.400 man. It's Christ. The Ancient of Days is Christ. Because Christ is 554 00:40:00.400 --> 00:40:02.320 the image of the Father. That's very important. Okay. So then the 555 00:40:02.320 --> 00:40:07.440 other thing that this icon has, which is problematic obviously is the philioque. 556 00:40:07.840 --> 00:40:13.840 Right. The Father is sending the Holy Spirit together with the Son, and 557 00:40:13.920 --> 00:40:20.320 so it's intended to convey the double hyposthetic procession. So that's one icon that 558 00:40:20.360 --> 00:40:23.400 you can see is obviously a problem. And remember an orthodox theology, it's 559 00:40:23.400 --> 00:40:30.400 these are not just pretty pictures. They're not just paintings, they're theology texts. 560 00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:35.159 They're teaching us theology. Right, So let's see there's another. They've 561 00:40:35.159 --> 00:40:37.199 got several in here. Let me sit, let me find another good one. 562 00:40:37.800 --> 00:40:43.119 Yeah, well, well yeah, all right. So this one, 563 00:40:43.159 --> 00:40:45.679 as you can see, is a problem too, because this one is called 564 00:40:45.760 --> 00:40:52.639 the New Testament trinity. And this is a lot of these are either uniate 565 00:40:52.719 --> 00:40:57.559 or just Jesuit right, creation icons. So here the Father and the Son 566 00:40:57.639 --> 00:41:04.159 together are like equals, and then who's in the middle, the Holy Spirit. 567 00:41:04.440 --> 00:41:10.320 Yeah. So again it's just basically double hypostidic procession trying to be taught 568 00:41:10.320 --> 00:41:16.840 there. Um, so you get the idea, Yeah, and I can 569 00:41:16.880 --> 00:41:21.239 I mention one more thing? Sure, sure, go ahead. Here's one 570 00:41:21.360 --> 00:41:28.559 called Coronation of the Virgin, which is also you'll notice Roman Catholic theology, 571 00:41:28.639 --> 00:41:31.440 where the Father and the Son together again, the Holy Spirit is coming as 572 00:41:31.440 --> 00:41:36.960 a result of the Father and the Son together upon Mary. Just really weird, 573 00:41:37.039 --> 00:41:39.480 bizarre looking theology. But you got to have the old Man and you 574 00:41:39.519 --> 00:41:44.320 gotta have Jesus. Right. We don't do that. We don't have old 575 00:41:44.320 --> 00:41:46.320 Man and then Jesus. Right, the Father and the Son It's not like 576 00:41:46.360 --> 00:41:53.400 that the ancient of Day's icon is the son with an older look, because 577 00:41:53.440 --> 00:42:00.960 that's what John sees in John one, and in John is referring back to 578 00:42:01.000 --> 00:42:06.519 what's in Ezekiel one, Ezekiel nine, and ten. Does that make sense 579 00:42:06.519 --> 00:42:10.360 what I'm saying? Like John is seeing the sun in his glorified state, 580 00:42:12.639 --> 00:42:16.079 and he has an appearance of the ancient of days? Right, he looks 581 00:42:16.159 --> 00:42:20.679 like the Father, but it's the son bearing the image of the father. 582 00:42:20.800 --> 00:42:28.159 Does that make sense? Yeah? Definitely, And I guess I kind of 583 00:42:28.239 --> 00:42:30.599 said might be. I think you pretty much covered the entirety of the stuffy. 584 00:42:30.639 --> 00:42:34.119 I mean, you might as well just clip this section and just posted 585 00:42:34.199 --> 00:42:36.719 on YouTube. Was that perfect? Well? You know what we should because 586 00:42:36.760 --> 00:42:39.559 this every like every time there's a discussion that comes up, right, like, 587 00:42:39.599 --> 00:42:43.760 what's the ancient of days? Can we depict the Father? I mean 588 00:42:44.840 --> 00:42:47.559 yeah, this comes up all the time. I'm trying to find an ancient 589 00:42:47.639 --> 00:42:53.159 of Day's icon that is Orthodox, and you can see how. I think 590 00:42:53.199 --> 00:43:00.000 there is one on Mount at Us that people will usually refer to. Are 591 00:42:59.840 --> 00:43:02.599 you thinking about that one? There is a there is one. I mean, 592 00:43:02.679 --> 00:43:07.880 there is an Orthodox Ancient of Day's icon um saying I want to say 593 00:43:07.960 --> 00:43:12.480 somebody like, uh, there's also the talks about it being fine and he 594 00:43:12.480 --> 00:43:15.840 says it is the Father. And there's also the Chris cru icon that people 595 00:43:15.920 --> 00:43:22.960 refer to because it's a miracle working right, same principle there. And there's 596 00:43:22.960 --> 00:43:27.559 another fine one that's not Roman Catholic on here. Yeah, and there are 597 00:43:27.599 --> 00:43:31.360 also other this one would be Orthodox right like so here, I don't know 598 00:43:31.400 --> 00:43:36.480 who this is or where it's from, but it it's basically making the point 599 00:43:36.559 --> 00:43:44.840 that, uh, you'll notice that that's Christ. Right, it's a reference 600 00:43:44.880 --> 00:43:49.199 to the Father, but it's Christ as the person of the Father, right, 601 00:43:51.840 --> 00:43:54.400 mean, Christ himself is the icon of the person of the Father. 602 00:43:54.960 --> 00:44:00.159 It is not the hypostasis of the Father that's depicted in the icon Jesus the 603 00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:06.440 way that Ezekiel and John C. Jesus warrified one. It's it's the idea 604 00:44:06.559 --> 00:44:08.800 of the Father conveyed by the person of the Son. Thank you well, 605 00:44:08.960 --> 00:44:14.679 perfect, I think that's the that's available. Good and tug Nazi. I 606 00:44:14.760 --> 00:44:17.920 will definitely get to your question. I just your super chat. It is 607 00:44:17.960 --> 00:44:21.480 just that I want to kind of get to the super chat for other people 608 00:44:21.559 --> 00:44:25.239 PBF five gods subject, thank you, thanks for the great trap brothers appreciate 609 00:44:25.280 --> 00:44:31.119 it. And before all right, So I'll first get to Tuck Nasty's question. 610 00:44:31.599 --> 00:44:36.119 He asked current thoughts on farther Stephen Freeman, So who those who don't 611 00:44:36.119 --> 00:44:39.079 know. I guess there's a history between you two because father to Stephen Freeman 612 00:44:39.400 --> 00:44:42.800 used to well, I don't know if he still promotes, but he used 613 00:44:42.800 --> 00:44:45.920 to promote this idea that the Old Testament isn't really talking about real events that 614 00:44:46.000 --> 00:44:51.519 actually happened. Rather a lot of it was just merely allegory and not real 615 00:44:51.639 --> 00:44:54.559 history, whereas the Fathers treat the Old Testament as a history text even though 616 00:44:54.800 --> 00:44:59.840 it has allegory symbolical events. We don't deny this, but it also this 617 00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:05.039 scraps real events that happened in history. So I guess you know what are 618 00:45:05.039 --> 00:45:08.519 your current taughts? And fought to Stephen Freeman. Well, I've never had 619 00:45:08.519 --> 00:45:12.800 a dispute with him, but Jay is the one that had so years ago. 620 00:45:13.159 --> 00:45:16.280 This was resulted from actually a priest was telling me that I should respond 621 00:45:16.280 --> 00:45:20.000 to as so people think I just go around trying to pick fights or something. 622 00:45:20.159 --> 00:45:22.880 Actually there was another priest who was messaging me saying, hey, would 623 00:45:22.880 --> 00:45:27.840 you reply to him on his blog on ancient faith because he was I mean 624 00:45:27.840 --> 00:45:30.960 it got pretty extreme at one point. I mean this is like six years 625 00:45:30.960 --> 00:45:32.480 ago, so I don't remember all the details of what his post was, 626 00:45:32.519 --> 00:45:38.360 but it was something like a lot of these Old Testament story It was basically 627 00:45:38.360 --> 00:45:45.199 a kind of a loose originism. I don't mean that he affirms origins universalism, 628 00:45:45.239 --> 00:45:49.320 but that many of the events accounted recounting in the Old Testament are not 629 00:45:49.440 --> 00:45:52.199 historical. And so the discussion got into things like, well, do you 630 00:45:52.239 --> 00:45:55.880 think Adam and Eve were historical? Do you think this or that? The 631 00:45:55.920 --> 00:46:00.320 problem with this is that you know, the New Testament in many many places 632 00:46:00.840 --> 00:46:07.119 speaks and presupposes that these people were actual historical people. The iconography teaches that 633 00:46:07.159 --> 00:46:10.199 they were actual historical people. I am in need, right, David Solomon, 634 00:46:10.320 --> 00:46:15.519 Right. So, like the problem is that you open the floodgates when 635 00:46:15.559 --> 00:46:19.239 you start saying that, oh, well, we don't have to believe that 636 00:46:19.320 --> 00:46:22.360 these are historical events, right, we do. In fact, there's a 637 00:46:22.400 --> 00:46:27.239 great quote always read from Saint Cyril of Alexandria. It's actually it's in the 638 00:46:27.440 --> 00:46:31.039 Genesis Creation Early man text by feather stuff from Rose. Here it is. 639 00:46:32.239 --> 00:46:37.920 Here's what Saint Cyril says on this. He says, questions in Joshua or 640 00:46:38.000 --> 00:46:42.639 now excuse me, that's a previous comment. Saint Cyril wrote that you cannot 641 00:46:42.679 --> 00:46:49.519 apprehend the scriptures correctly if one attempts to contemplate the spiritual meaning without respecting the 642 00:46:49.519 --> 00:46:54.840 actual historical meaning. Quote those who reject the historical meaning of the God inspired 643 00:46:54.880 --> 00:47:00.840 scriptures as something obsolete or avoiding the avoiding the ability to comprehend it rightly according 644 00:47:00.840 --> 00:47:06.639 to the proper manner the things written in them. For indeed, spiritual contemplation 645 00:47:06.800 --> 00:47:10.199 is good and is profitable, and it enlightens the eyes of reasoning, especially 646 00:47:10.239 --> 00:47:15.000 well it reveals the wisest of things. But whenever some historical events are presented 647 00:47:15.079 --> 00:47:20.360 us by holy scripture, in that instance, a useful search into the historical 648 00:47:20.400 --> 00:47:23.440 meaning is appropriate in order that the God inspire scriptures might be revealed to be 649 00:47:23.480 --> 00:47:28.719 selvific and beneficial to us in every way. That's commentary on Isaiah. So 650 00:47:28.760 --> 00:47:31.480 he's specifically talking about the events in Isaiah right Old Testament texts, and he's 651 00:47:31.480 --> 00:47:37.400 saying that you can't deny the historical reality upon which the allegory or upon which 652 00:47:37.440 --> 00:47:42.159 the spiritual meaning is predicated. And by the way, he's not the only 653 00:47:42.159 --> 00:47:46.079 one that says that. So, this idea that you could sacrifice the historical 654 00:47:46.159 --> 00:47:53.280 meaning to save a deeper allegorical spiritual meaning right at the cost of getting rid 655 00:47:53.280 --> 00:47:57.199 of the historical, is actually what's denied. And by the way, Saint 656 00:47:57.199 --> 00:48:01.039 Maximust Confessor says the exact same thing too. You have the Atholassium volume. 657 00:48:01.079 --> 00:48:06.079 There's an introductory essay written by Father Cosmos, and at the end of that 658 00:48:06.119 --> 00:48:10.599 introductory essay he says that same Maximus, never sacrifice the historical reality for the 659 00:48:10.639 --> 00:48:15.159 allegorical or the spiritual. And that's a mistake to do so. In fact, 660 00:48:15.159 --> 00:48:19.679 if you look in Galatians, for Paul makes his allegory on the basis 661 00:48:19.719 --> 00:48:23.119 of Abraham, Hagar, and Sarah having been actual people. The allegory would 662 00:48:23.119 --> 00:48:28.840 make no sense if they weren't historical people. And so this is the quadriga. 663 00:48:29.039 --> 00:48:31.639 This is the four senses of scripture. The four senses of scripture are 664 00:48:31.679 --> 00:48:37.360 never intended to deny the first sense. In fact, the other three senses 665 00:48:37.400 --> 00:48:42.639 are built on the first sense of scripture, the grammatical historical. That's the 666 00:48:42.639 --> 00:48:47.880 basis for the allegorical, the tropological, the anagogical. So it's really odd 667 00:48:47.920 --> 00:48:53.360 to me that anybody who you know, thinking about the historical, because these 668 00:48:53.360 --> 00:48:57.639 people always say, well, you don't know the church fathers. The church 669 00:48:57.760 --> 00:49:01.800 Fathers use symbolism and allegory. Well, they don't even realize that the four 670 00:49:01.880 --> 00:49:08.159 senses of scripture that they are using presuppose the first sense being the literal historical. 671 00:49:08.880 --> 00:49:13.079 And that's just standard scholarship on anybody that would talk about the four senses 672 00:49:13.119 --> 00:49:15.920 of scripture that comes out of the Early and Middle Ages, and it's it's 673 00:49:16.000 --> 00:49:19.960 codified in the Middle Ages, in the East end the West, by the 674 00:49:19.960 --> 00:49:22.920 way I mean, it's it's pretty universally used by the by the Middle Ages, 675 00:49:22.960 --> 00:49:25.360 by the East end the West, to speak of the four senses of 676 00:49:25.360 --> 00:49:30.239 scripture. Another point too, is that you know, he was for the 677 00:49:30.280 --> 00:49:35.519 Freeman in that those actually had written many articles. It wasn't just one. 678 00:49:35.599 --> 00:49:39.519 He had written many articles about well, the Old Testament isn't historical, and 679 00:49:39.599 --> 00:49:45.039 it was even verging on sort of quasi Marcianite statements about how you, well, 680 00:49:45.079 --> 00:49:46.440 this God, the Old Testament he's kind of mean, and you know, 681 00:49:46.760 --> 00:49:51.039 this doesn't make sense that he would operate this way and telling, you 682 00:49:51.079 --> 00:49:54.519 know, the Angel of the Lord going before the armies of Israel to destroy 683 00:49:54.599 --> 00:49:59.119 and cleanse the Promised Land. Jesus would never do that, you see. 684 00:49:59.280 --> 00:50:04.280 So you see the re well, that's Marcian. And so when I read 685 00:50:04.679 --> 00:50:07.400 Urinais against heresies, the funny thing is that when I responded, I did 686 00:50:07.400 --> 00:50:14.400 two videos responding to him back six years ago. Urinais uses the very examples 687 00:50:14.960 --> 00:50:20.400 that he was giving and says that these are historical events and if you deny 688 00:50:20.480 --> 00:50:25.400 these, you would be following Marcion. So I'm not people gotten mad at 689 00:50:25.400 --> 00:50:29.000 me, like, oh, you're so mean, who were you to do? 690 00:50:29.800 --> 00:50:34.280 I'm only disagreeing with what he's saying in these essays that I don't see 691 00:50:34.320 --> 00:50:37.559 any church fathers teaching this. The only church father I see teaching this is 692 00:50:37.599 --> 00:50:44.159 Origin, and Origin's view of sacrifice in the historical reality for the allegory is 693 00:50:44.199 --> 00:50:51.320 condemned in the confession of Saint Sophronius at the sixth Council explicitly. M Yeah. 694 00:50:51.440 --> 00:50:53.880 And one thing I'd like to add about seeing clearly is that it's not 695 00:50:53.920 --> 00:50:58.000 just comment here on Isaiah. He says this in the introduction to the Glyphia 696 00:50:58.039 --> 00:51:04.559 and the Pentitic that the historical sense is what gives foundation to the spiritual sense. 697 00:51:04.880 --> 00:51:07.239 So with without the historical sense, you don't have a spiritual sense. 698 00:51:07.360 --> 00:51:13.800 That that's as strong as an endorsement to an in vindication of the Old Testament 699 00:51:13.840 --> 00:51:16.719 being a history book, a history book that actually writes about real events that 700 00:51:16.800 --> 00:51:21.480 did happen. Um. Now one can argue abill some of the events that 701 00:51:21.639 --> 00:51:22.719 happened, you know, the whole. If you you know, some people 702 00:51:22.719 --> 00:51:25.719 are interesting the whole, like Nephilim discourse and Old Diver. They might say, 703 00:51:25.719 --> 00:51:29.079 oh, well, it's not just real people that you know are being 704 00:51:29.159 --> 00:51:32.519 bored against. These are actually like you know, demi human. You know, 705 00:51:32.639 --> 00:51:36.480 there's there's that interpretation, right, So like you can make that kind 706 00:51:36.480 --> 00:51:38.039 of an argument, But what you can't make as an argument is that, 707 00:51:38.039 --> 00:51:42.119 oh, well, this doesn't happened. This was just kind of like it. 708 00:51:42.320 --> 00:51:45.239 It's just it's just supposed to tell us a story, right, and 709 00:51:45.800 --> 00:51:50.679 to his credit, right, And obviously you're not like fans of like super 710 00:51:50.719 --> 00:51:52.360 big fans of Ancient Fate radio and all of that, But to his credit, 711 00:51:52.480 --> 00:51:58.280 um far as Stephen de Young does actually defend the history of the Old 712 00:51:58.320 --> 00:52:01.199 Testament, right, So, uh, to some people that might be interested 713 00:52:01.199 --> 00:52:05.079 in that, they might kind of like be encouraged at the very least to 714 00:52:05.119 --> 00:52:12.360 see that there's still some people that have a sensible view of scriptures. Yeah. 715 00:52:12.360 --> 00:52:14.559 I mean. It's the other thing too, is that you know, 716 00:52:14.599 --> 00:52:17.559 I've read enough of the Church Fathers over the years to know very well that 717 00:52:17.599 --> 00:52:22.639 there are countless quotes I'm not just quote mining, but I mean with with 718 00:52:22.679 --> 00:52:29.320 the proper context where the Church Fathers do talk about the inspiration and inerrancy of 719 00:52:29.320 --> 00:52:32.760 the scriptures. Uh, you know, even even Saint Jerome, but he's 720 00:52:34.000 --> 00:52:37.079 frequently speaks this way. And so you know, again, I want to 721 00:52:37.079 --> 00:52:43.000 remind people that if you have the the the Fathers of the Church at the 722 00:52:43.079 --> 00:52:45.960 Lastum, if you go to pages forty five, forty six, forty seven 723 00:52:46.159 --> 00:52:52.079 in Father Cosmos, the famous Maximus Scholar, he will sit here and give 724 00:52:52.119 --> 00:52:55.440 you an explanation of the four senses of scripture, and he will talk about 725 00:52:55.440 --> 00:53:00.679 how the purpose of this is to get you, too, area to contemplation 726 00:53:01.280 --> 00:53:05.760 of the scriptures and their true meaning. According to Saint Maximus, which is 727 00:53:05.840 --> 00:53:08.559 ultimately to contemplate the logi of Scripture, which is to point you to Christ. 728 00:53:09.519 --> 00:53:15.920 But in this four or five page section he explains very clearly that Maximus's 729 00:53:15.960 --> 00:53:22.679 notion of moving up, you could say in the contemplation from the literal historical 730 00:53:22.000 --> 00:53:27.679 right. It's grounded on the literal historical right. And so there's there's other 731 00:53:27.719 --> 00:53:35.239 mistakes going on too in this where they will call fundamentalism believing in the grammatical 732 00:53:35.320 --> 00:53:38.639 historical sense of the text, that's not what fundamentalism is. Fundamentalism is a 733 00:53:38.840 --> 00:53:45.360 movement of Protestant evangelicals in the twenty early twentieth century who hammered out five basics 734 00:53:45.440 --> 00:53:51.480 or fundamentals that they believed in that they wouldn't compromise on. So that's the 735 00:53:51.519 --> 00:53:54.760 actual origin of the term fundamentalism. And by the way, the five fundamentals 736 00:53:54.760 --> 00:53:59.239 are pretty much things that we would agree like the Trinity, the virgin birth, 737 00:53:59.280 --> 00:54:04.679 the deed of Christ. Those are the fundamentals that Protestant fundamentalists stated they 738 00:54:04.719 --> 00:54:09.400 believed in when the Protestant churches and Evangelical churches were being heavily liberalized in the 739 00:54:09.480 --> 00:54:14.920 nineteen twenties, thirties, and forties. So that's what fundamentalism is. That 740 00:54:15.079 --> 00:54:22.280 is a question of lack of faith in the Bible and in revelation. That 741 00:54:22.440 --> 00:54:29.679 is different from Hermanutics, which recognizes the four senses of Scripture in terms of 742 00:54:29.679 --> 00:54:35.360 exegesis. Two totally different questions. But the people who want to make you 743 00:54:35.400 --> 00:54:40.840 know the religion more palatable to atheists and two evolutionary proponents like they're always interested 744 00:54:40.880 --> 00:54:47.039 in conflating these things and acting like fundamentalism has something to do with hermonutics. 745 00:54:47.039 --> 00:54:52.760 Now it could, because you could have fundamentalists who do stupid exegesis. But 746 00:54:52.800 --> 00:54:58.719 those are two different questions. I mean, it's it's just a fundamental level 747 00:54:58.800 --> 00:55:02.480 confusion. And as I understand it, the reason that father Freeman kind of 748 00:55:02.519 --> 00:55:06.079 had a lot of these assumptions. I don't know him, so I've only 749 00:55:06.119 --> 00:55:08.079 interacted with him seven years ago on that blog, and I'm not trying to 750 00:55:08.119 --> 00:55:12.920 be mean to him or rude to him. I'm not saying anything bad about 751 00:55:12.960 --> 00:55:16.159 him personally. I don't know him. But the my understanding was that he 752 00:55:16.239 --> 00:55:20.159 had come I think from an Anglican background, and a lot of people who 753 00:55:20.239 --> 00:55:25.639 come out of Anglicanism or Episcopelianism into Orthodoxy. They're trained in you know, 754 00:55:25.719 --> 00:55:30.079 liberal institutions, and then they just come into Orthodoxy thinking, oh orthodox, 755 00:55:30.119 --> 00:55:35.360 He's like this more mystical version of an older mystical version of Episcopelianism, and 756 00:55:35.360 --> 00:55:38.880 I can keep all of my textual liberalism. And it's just it's not that's 757 00:55:38.920 --> 00:55:43.880 not honest with what the church fathers teach about the texts. You can you 758 00:55:43.880 --> 00:55:49.800 will not find church fathers saying that the texts are not historical. I mean 759 00:55:49.920 --> 00:55:55.079 that's severely in the minority. Okay, you might find Nissa, Saint Gregonissa 760 00:55:55.239 --> 00:56:00.159 agreeing in a few places with origin, but other than Saint Gregonissa, no, 761 00:56:00.320 --> 00:56:01.840 In fact, a lot of these people lie too. They'll take Saint 762 00:56:01.840 --> 00:56:08.079 Gregor Palamas, where he talks about places in Genesis, in Genesis one, 763 00:56:08.119 --> 00:56:13.440 they'll say when he's talking about the creation of the angelic aon, they'll take 764 00:56:13.519 --> 00:56:17.280 that and lie and say that he's saying that Genesis isn't historical. Total nonsense. 765 00:56:17.280 --> 00:56:22.519 He's talking about the creation of the angelic realm not being in history because 766 00:56:22.559 --> 00:56:28.199 they're created in the spiritual realm angels, right, they're not created in time. 767 00:56:28.920 --> 00:56:31.440 And so you see how people are are crafty and they lie and they 768 00:56:31.480 --> 00:56:37.199 say, Aha, see Saint Gregor Palamas is denying sixth day creation and then 769 00:56:37.199 --> 00:56:39.599 he turns around it teaches sixth day creation. It's just total dishonesty about these 770 00:56:39.639 --> 00:56:49.039 people. Yeah, definitely on I think I think the main problem with this 771 00:56:49.199 --> 00:56:52.840 kind of like allegorization because a lot of people think but like they kind of 772 00:56:52.880 --> 00:56:55.800 have this dialectical view of like, Okay, if you're not a fun you 773 00:56:55.840 --> 00:57:00.920 know, if you're not having the symbolic logical view that you're supposed to have, 774 00:57:01.360 --> 00:57:06.079 then the opposite is you just take everything at face value and you'd end 775 00:57:06.159 --> 00:57:08.960 up defending indefensible things and that this is kind of just you know, it's 776 00:57:09.400 --> 00:57:14.639 you don't believe in bory or the spiritual sense and you think that everything is 777 00:57:14.719 --> 00:57:17.400 literal. There's a thousand year premillennial kingdom and you're a dispensationalist. This is 778 00:57:17.639 --> 00:57:22.239 totally silly, right, It's just unnecessary, right it you know, both 779 00:57:22.239 --> 00:57:25.679 approaches can be wrong, and it doesn't mean that just one extreme being rejected, 780 00:57:25.760 --> 00:57:29.679 it doesn't mean that the other extreme must be endorsed. Right. It's 781 00:57:29.679 --> 00:57:37.639 not like I have to choose between documentary hypothesis higher critical liberalism, Jesus quest 782 00:57:37.960 --> 00:57:40.079 on the one hand, and then over here I have to be John Hagey 783 00:57:40.159 --> 00:57:44.920 dispensationalist. You know, thousand year kingdom, dragons flying around in space, 784 00:57:45.000 --> 00:57:47.559 seven day avenues. Literally, they act like that's the two choices you have, 785 00:57:47.880 --> 00:57:51.719 no, Yeah, and it's it's similar to kind of like the temptation 786 00:57:51.760 --> 00:57:53.559 that people had in the fifty sixth centuries. But like on the one hand, 787 00:57:53.599 --> 00:57:57.639 they saw the an off site extreme and then they thought, Okay, 788 00:57:57.639 --> 00:58:00.320 if you're not gonna be an officide, you're gonna be nestorian then. But 789 00:58:00.440 --> 00:58:04.960 orthodoxy just tells you, actually, both of these extremes are wrong. There 790 00:58:05.079 --> 00:58:08.880 is a proper royal path in this and that's what got bad news for the 791 00:58:08.960 --> 00:58:14.920 allegorizers to the extreme. And by the way, allegory is a valid fourth 792 00:58:14.960 --> 00:58:17.920 sense of scripture, right or second sense. However you list them, it 793 00:58:17.920 --> 00:58:23.159 doesn't really matter. If you read the Aspensky Lasky book on icons, the 794 00:58:23.280 --> 00:58:35.480 chapter on Hassikia and icon and particularly the chapter dealing with the energy's doctrine and 795 00:58:35.679 --> 00:58:42.239 icons. Okay, this whole chapter where Saint Gregory Palamas is discussed in how 796 00:58:42.840 --> 00:58:45.639 iconography is tied into the US and synergy distinction. I got bad news for 797 00:58:45.679 --> 00:58:53.719 those people because Palamos argues that icons are not symbols. Icons are conveying realities, 798 00:58:53.960 --> 00:58:59.880 and he argues that everything that you see in an icon is a historical 799 00:59:00.280 --> 00:59:08.519 reality. That's his theological argumentation. So unless you want to deny icons, 800 00:59:08.920 --> 00:59:14.119 which is ultimately what the originist view does. People don't even remember if you 801 00:59:14.119 --> 00:59:21.119 read the Mayador text on business he theology, the chapter on monks and humanists, 802 00:59:21.159 --> 00:59:29.480 he says that the motivation behind iconoclasm is platonism and originism. Why would 803 00:59:29.480 --> 00:59:35.400 platonism and originism be the motivation behind the attack on icons? Very simple, 804 00:59:35.960 --> 00:59:42.440 because origins presuppositions are the denigration of history and of time. That's why he 805 00:59:42.480 --> 00:59:47.280 has a problem with the body. Okay, how could the body be resurrected 806 00:59:47.280 --> 00:59:51.320 as the body? It's not good. It's bad. History is bad. 807 00:59:51.480 --> 00:59:54.800 We got a flight flee from history and from time. Those are prisons platos. 808 00:59:54.800 --> 00:59:59.360 So the body is a tomb, Time is a prison. Because that's 809 00:59:59.360 --> 01:00:02.679 gnostick, that's Platonic doctrine. That's not our doctrine. Because Jesus stepped into 810 01:00:02.719 --> 01:00:07.000 time and he assumed and deified actual human nature, the same body that we 811 01:00:07.079 --> 01:00:15.880 have, the same nature that we have. So iconography is an affirmation of 812 01:00:15.199 --> 01:00:22.280 the grammatical historical events. Palamas says, they are real historical events in icons 813 01:00:22.480 --> 01:00:25.119 and if you say that they're not, you're a neo platonist and you're actually 814 01:00:25.119 --> 01:00:32.920 condemned by the Seven Council. Yep, and let me let's see, all 815 01:00:34.000 --> 01:00:37.320 right, another super chat. Think you jacked, meister shul I mean, 816 01:00:37.440 --> 01:00:40.199 it's going to be kind of difficult to go through all of this kind of 817 01:00:40.199 --> 01:00:44.760 stuff, but really appreciate you. All of you guys were supporting the stream. 818 01:00:44.800 --> 01:00:47.559 He sends five dollars. And I guess I suppose this is a question 819 01:00:47.599 --> 01:00:51.199 for me, because he says Christ is ascended, truly, he has ascended 820 01:00:51.199 --> 01:00:54.000 out of curiosity. Do you think he will ever do an updated refutation of 821 01:00:54.480 --> 01:00:59.159 the fake Orthodox? Right? So the first thing I will say is, 822 01:00:59.199 --> 01:01:01.480 I think what I already did is already sufficient, and it's only kind of 823 01:01:01.480 --> 01:01:05.880 gets into the key things. And I don't think if I updated it, 824 01:01:05.920 --> 01:01:07.760 I will kind of just say the same thing in a refined language, so 825 01:01:07.840 --> 01:01:13.039 to speak. But I also I could kind of just get into the basics 826 01:01:13.159 --> 01:01:16.199 of it right now and kind of just explain why it is a nonsense cool 827 01:01:16.320 --> 01:01:21.159 position. And so for those who don't know, we're referring to the old 828 01:01:21.199 --> 01:01:24.079 calendar. Is they called themselves genuine Orthodox, they called themselves true Orthodox, 829 01:01:24.159 --> 01:01:27.960 right, So they have these various different names. They tend to not be 830 01:01:28.039 --> 01:01:30.039 in community each other. So these are just different splinter groups. And the 831 01:01:30.079 --> 01:01:36.519 basis for their separation is initially the adoption of the new calendar. They claimed 832 01:01:36.559 --> 01:01:39.519 this was uncanonical. The evidence that they use was the Cigilion of sixteen eighty 833 01:01:39.519 --> 01:01:44.840 three. It turns out that was not actually the Canada they're talking about. 834 01:01:44.880 --> 01:01:49.119 What doesn't actually exist. What is condemned is using the new calendar, Pascal 835 01:01:49.360 --> 01:01:52.400 calendar. But the new calendar that we use in the Orthodox Church uses the 836 01:01:52.400 --> 01:01:57.119 old calendar, Pascal calendar, right, which is why we have not only 837 01:01:57.159 --> 01:02:01.000 a different Easter to the Roman Catholics, you know, unless you have times 838 01:02:01.239 --> 01:02:05.599 in twenty twenty five or they happen to coincide. This is also why we 839 01:02:05.639 --> 01:02:08.480 have different days on Ascension and Pentecost, right, This is because we use 840 01:02:08.480 --> 01:02:13.000 a different Pascal calendar. So you're not condemned by the council. We don't 841 01:02:13.079 --> 01:02:16.360 do that. We don't do that right at the very least, not now 842 01:02:16.480 --> 01:02:19.599 or anything like that. I don't think it's going to happen in the future. 843 01:02:19.639 --> 01:02:22.480 So that's the first thing I will will note is that there's no canonical 844 01:02:22.519 --> 01:02:27.760 basis for the initial separation. But then the reason became all because you're ecumenist 845 01:02:27.960 --> 01:02:34.400 and your bishops preach heresy bear headed, right, And they use the first 846 01:02:34.400 --> 01:02:40.559 second Council that Saint photis presided Canon fifteen about how it is valid to separate 847 01:02:40.639 --> 01:02:45.280 from communion from bishops that teach heresy bear headed, and they make it seem 848 01:02:45.320 --> 01:02:51.800 as if you're obligated to do that, and there's this kind of mechanic behind 849 01:02:51.800 --> 01:02:55.079 it they have in their mind where if you have a bishop that is preaching 850 01:02:55.079 --> 01:03:00.679 heresy bear headed, then he basically poisons the communion that of the other bishops 851 01:03:00.719 --> 01:03:02.480 that he's a part of. Right, So it's not just Patriarch Bartolomy that 852 01:03:02.480 --> 01:03:06.000 they will say is a problem. Well, the other bishops are in community 853 01:03:06.000 --> 01:03:07.800 with Bartolomy, is what they will argue, So you shouldn't be in communit 854 01:03:07.800 --> 01:03:10.079 with any of these churches. So there's two extreme positions. One of them 855 01:03:10.079 --> 01:03:14.559 say, well, the ortolac Shi still has grace, so they will recognize 856 01:03:14.559 --> 01:03:16.440 that we have grace, they will just say we shouldn't. We are not 857 01:03:16.480 --> 01:03:21.239 the true churcher, we should not be you know they you know, they 858 01:03:21.239 --> 01:03:23.480 should basically fix. So that's kind of just in more of a mogic position. 859 01:03:23.519 --> 01:03:25.719 Then there's the extreme position that just says, Okay, the Ortolast Church 860 01:03:25.760 --> 01:03:29.960 doesn't even have grace, they don't have any any kind of grace. They 861 01:03:29.960 --> 01:03:34.599 don't have any baptism and a Eucharius anything of that sort. So the problem 862 01:03:34.639 --> 01:03:38.800 with this communal view is that it is ahistorical. Right, There's many instances 863 01:03:38.800 --> 01:03:43.599 of bishops preaching heresy bearheaded where the other bishops who are completely a verefit and 864 01:03:43.599 --> 01:03:45.400 they still remain in community with them. The source is an example of this. 865 01:03:45.679 --> 01:03:49.199 Another example i'd like to use, and this is an example I didn't 866 01:03:49.280 --> 01:03:51.320 use in this video, but I can. I can use it in this 867 01:03:51.440 --> 01:03:57.880 stream is actually ten fifty four because until the thirteenth or fourteenth century, Alexandria 868 01:03:57.960 --> 01:04:00.920 was in community with the Roman Catholic Church. Now we will say the Roman 869 01:04:00.960 --> 01:04:04.840 Catholic Church were heretics even you know after that time, would you say that 870 01:04:04.880 --> 01:04:09.079 the patriarch of Alexandra was Roman Catholic or would you say they were Orthodox? 871 01:04:09.159 --> 01:04:11.599 Right? I mean, that's that's a question mark. We will as Orthodist 872 01:04:11.679 --> 01:04:15.880 Christians say that they were Orthodox Christians that were still in you know, still 873 01:04:15.880 --> 01:04:18.199 trying to hold onto the unity of the Church, and until you know, 874 01:04:18.239 --> 01:04:21.119 read the Council of Forlorence, that kind of just went to vent. Right. 875 01:04:21.639 --> 01:04:26.320 But that's that's a historical fact, and and it's it's a historical fact 876 01:04:26.360 --> 01:04:31.440 that challenges the ecclesiology of the so called true Orthodox position. So the true 877 01:04:31.719 --> 01:04:35.800 and the problem with again with Cam fifteen of the first Second Council is that 878 01:04:35.880 --> 01:04:41.559 all it tells you is that if if a bishop is preaching heresy bareheaded, 879 01:04:41.639 --> 01:04:46.320 you can separate community with that bishop from that bishop and you don't get condemned 880 01:04:46.400 --> 01:04:49.800 as a result of it. But it doesn't say you have to do this 881 01:04:49.920 --> 01:04:55.280 right. So the monks that Constantinople separated from community the stories, they didn't 882 01:04:55.280 --> 01:04:58.800 recognize him as a bishop, but there were many bishops in other parts of 883 01:04:58.880 --> 01:05:00.880 Christian or they were fully are of what the stories were saying. Antioch strad 884 01:05:00.960 --> 01:05:05.639 Up defended these stories for until for thirty three. Patriarch of Antioch Stride up 885 01:05:05.639 --> 01:05:11.760 defending their stories. Everyone was in community Antioch two, and even they defended 886 01:05:11.840 --> 01:05:15.880 him even after the Atturnycommendical Council, right even after the eclesial condemnation, they 887 01:05:15.880 --> 01:05:19.920 still defended him. And the churches were still in community with Antioch. So 888 01:05:20.039 --> 01:05:25.679 what does that mean. It just means that they were still part of the 889 01:05:25.840 --> 01:05:29.280 Orthodox show there, the sacraments were still being recognized, they were still in 890 01:05:29.320 --> 01:05:31.480 community the rest of Orthodox churches. They were still part of the Orthodox Church. 891 01:05:31.559 --> 01:05:35.079 There was not a full blown schism. And so the importance of maintained 892 01:05:35.119 --> 01:05:39.800 communion in spite of these wrong things that happened, and a lot of people 893 01:05:39.800 --> 01:05:42.679 talk about this is to preserve the unity of the church, right, This 894 01:05:42.760 --> 01:05:45.440 is what's important. So if you talk about like Moscow Constantinople, one thing 895 01:05:45.440 --> 01:05:49.360 that we can talk about, although there's an egoistic separation, there's a recognition 896 01:05:49.360 --> 01:05:53.719 of sacraments from both sides, right, and this kind of preserves the unity 897 01:05:53.760 --> 01:05:56.280 of the church in that regard as well. So a lot of people had 898 01:05:56.360 --> 01:05:59.400 this Roman Catholic understanding of schism or like you're thrown out of the church and 899 01:05:59.440 --> 01:06:01.519 that's so it's over. You know, you're gone you're out, like completely, 900 01:06:01.599 --> 01:06:05.559 you're completely gone out veryas in your talk Church. It's it's in degrees, 901 01:06:05.800 --> 01:06:10.119 right, and it's it moves over time, right, it progresses over 902 01:06:10.199 --> 01:06:13.920 time. So that's a vast difference between the two positions, and from my 903 01:06:14.079 --> 01:06:18.079 observation, the so called Shortsdox position is trying to maintain Orthodox ecclesiology with Roman 904 01:06:18.119 --> 01:06:21.920 Catholic pizzub positions. I'm not saying they're Roman, obviously they're not trying to 905 01:06:21.920 --> 01:06:26.320 be Roman Catholic, but I do think they that they want to or not 906 01:06:26.400 --> 01:06:30.840 have Roman Catholic presuppositions in their ecclesialogy. Ing you want to add to Jay 907 01:06:30.920 --> 01:06:32.400 before we move on to the next but no, I mean I think you 908 01:06:32.880 --> 01:06:36.920 nailed it there. I mean it's this attitude of like, uh, everything 909 01:06:38.039 --> 01:06:41.079 is sort of like a light switch, like it just flips, or like 910 01:06:41.079 --> 01:06:45.719 as soon as somebody says something heretical, the light swift slitch switches flip and 911 01:06:45.760 --> 01:06:48.239 then everything is just the grace is shut off like some kind of machinery, 912 01:06:48.320 --> 01:06:51.960 you know, like the electricity is no longer there, and it's just kind 913 01:06:51.960 --> 01:06:58.840 of it's completely a historical and unrealistic when it comes to how the church operates 914 01:06:58.840 --> 01:07:02.960 in history, there's a nautical procedure that occur, like phases that occur for 915 01:07:03.199 --> 01:07:08.239 things like the excommunication of patriarchs and bishopers and so forth. It's not this 916 01:07:08.519 --> 01:07:12.719 overnight thing. It's it's true that people have in I mean, it's a 917 01:07:12.719 --> 01:07:15.760 case by case basis what I'm trying to say. You can't like apply this 918 01:07:15.800 --> 01:07:20.519 one size fits all to where the light switch goes out and then everybody's lost 919 01:07:20.519 --> 01:07:24.880 grace. It just doesn't make sense. It's in it. What it does 920 01:07:24.960 --> 01:07:30.039 is that it's realizing real problems but then having a bad solution to real problems. 921 01:07:30.039 --> 01:07:35.920 And we don't see in church history saints setting up parallel ecclesiological uh you 922 01:07:35.920 --> 01:07:45.079 know structures. Parallel ecclesiological structures is what schism is. So yeah, precisely, 923 01:07:45.159 --> 01:07:49.360 so I can be, you know, I'm sympathetic at the very least 924 01:07:49.440 --> 01:07:54.800 to the teo positions that still actually say, you know, you guys are 925 01:07:54.880 --> 01:07:57.159 still part of the true Church. It's just that this needs to be. 926 01:07:57.239 --> 01:08:00.719 But there's very few of them that actually genuinely holds that view, and the 927 01:08:00.800 --> 01:08:03.599 ones that do end up becoming orthodox anyway. That's kind of my observation both 928 01:08:03.639 --> 01:08:06.159 from the history of the church. Right, we have a lot of saints 929 01:08:06.199 --> 01:08:11.119 that used to be Old calendaris and they became Orthodox because they saw pretty much 930 01:08:11.360 --> 01:08:15.760 very similar things about the same things about the ecclesiological problems of this kind of 931 01:08:15.800 --> 01:08:17.640 position, how it's really a dead end position at the end of the day. 932 01:08:18.239 --> 01:08:25.039 Another question from Ilius is he asked, is architecture as important as iconography 933 01:08:25.039 --> 01:08:27.960 in the Orthodox Church? I'm aware of the vision for Agia Sophia and the 934 01:08:27.960 --> 01:08:32.800 Easter pate pointing altars any more points. So the first the main survival kind 935 01:08:32.800 --> 01:08:34.560 of give is that, well, there's a lot of precedents from the Old 936 01:08:34.560 --> 01:08:40.560 Testament liturgical structure itself, right, whether the user of iconography themselves, the 937 01:08:40.720 --> 01:08:46.079 nave, the altar, the kind of purpose of the structure, the architecture, 938 01:08:46.880 --> 01:08:51.359 all of that has precedents in the Old Testament and liturgical structure. But 939 01:08:53.039 --> 01:08:56.319 this is something that is also up your speeches. So what would you also 940 01:08:56.359 --> 01:09:00.000 add, like to the importance of the architecture. Why do Orthodox churches look 941 01:09:00.079 --> 01:09:06.239 the specific way they do? Right? I did a talk on a book 942 01:09:06.239 --> 01:09:13.119 called uh Mystagogy of the Church, and that's a little work by Saint Maximus, 943 01:09:13.359 --> 01:09:17.520 and he talks about the structure and symbolism of the church. Um, 944 01:09:17.720 --> 01:09:23.680 so it does have an important role. And there are you know, strictures 945 01:09:23.720 --> 01:09:28.000 and limitations on how the church can be built. So it is important. 946 01:09:28.800 --> 01:09:33.399 Um, I don't think it's as important as iconographic theology because it's you know, 947 01:09:33.399 --> 01:09:40.039 the iconography is more is more of a direct presentation of the theology. 948 01:09:40.079 --> 01:09:44.159 And sometimes the church, you know, sometimes people have to rent another person's 949 01:09:44.199 --> 01:09:47.279 building, you know, to do to do services. So but it does 950 01:09:47.399 --> 01:09:51.560 matter, and eventually it does the theology seeps into the architecture. Sure, 951 01:09:55.880 --> 01:10:00.199 yeah, I think I definitely agree on I think, like, h the 952 01:10:00.319 --> 01:10:05.039 architecture, like it's more like a well, the way to describe is, 953 01:10:05.199 --> 01:10:11.840 especially in the early Christian persecutions, is that the basis for what we do 954 01:10:11.960 --> 01:10:15.720 or worship is fundamentally internal, right, That's like the most crucial thing. 955 01:10:15.159 --> 01:10:19.960 And so when we talk about externals like architecture, even iconography, even though 956 01:10:20.000 --> 01:10:25.079 that's part of the internal right worship service. Due to the theology of iconography, 957 01:10:24.800 --> 01:10:27.279 with the sun being the icon of the Father and all of that, 958 01:10:28.159 --> 01:10:31.880 all of that kind of becomes more manifested over time. And the possibilities emerge 959 01:10:31.920 --> 01:10:34.119 as well. Right, So this is why you will see, well, 960 01:10:34.359 --> 01:10:40.359 this is why obviously there's a vast difference in architecture within the early Church pre 961 01:10:40.560 --> 01:10:44.359 Saint Constantine and Postine Constans, because well, there wasn't really even a possibility 962 01:10:44.439 --> 01:10:49.079 to kind of showcase the manifestation of Christian worship and architecture. And even still 963 01:10:49.199 --> 01:10:53.680 some places today, right, Like there's apartment churches, there's places that people 964 01:10:53.760 --> 01:10:59.159 rent, like they are used as Roman Catholic churches or Anglican churches, and 965 01:10:59.199 --> 01:11:02.479 they used they are used, you know, by renting as Orthodox churches to 966 01:11:02.600 --> 01:11:04.720 conduct service. Right, So it's not, as you said, it's not 967 01:11:04.800 --> 01:11:09.600 as a it's not like it's a thing that you necessarily have to have in 968 01:11:09.680 --> 01:11:12.600 order to have correct service, but it is something that is an outworking of 969 01:11:12.760 --> 01:11:17.079 the liturgy itself, and the possibility does does emerge. Right, So that's 970 01:11:17.119 --> 01:11:21.159 I will definitely agree with that point. Training Melissa with the five dollars great 971 01:11:21.159 --> 01:11:26.239 stuff, thinks David and Jay appreciate the five dollars super chat think hum Melissa, 972 01:11:27.479 --> 01:11:30.880 Ryan asks five dollars thank you for the super chat. Keep up the 973 01:11:30.920 --> 01:11:33.840 awesome work, guys, y'all are bringing tons of people to arthodoxy. My 974 01:11:34.000 --> 01:11:40.239 question is is there any hope for the for the Greek Orthodox archdiocracy and the 975 01:11:40.279 --> 01:11:45.000 Acoumenical Patriarchate God bless Well. I am part of the Acumenical patriarch it directly. 976 01:11:45.600 --> 01:11:49.319 I do think there's hope, but obviously there's a lot of difficulties regarding 977 01:11:49.319 --> 01:11:55.479 the geopolitical situation and some of the policies of the EP itself. As someone 978 01:11:55.680 --> 01:11:59.880 on the ground himself, I will my main thing is, you know the 979 01:12:00.079 --> 01:12:02.920 bit. One of the reasons why the EP does a lot of things that 980 01:12:03.119 --> 01:12:08.439 kind of bogs people's mind is because of the geopolitical situation of the Chomedical Patriarch 981 01:12:08.439 --> 01:12:14.600 and being in the constats Noble Patriarch. Bartone definitely definitely thinks whether that is 982 01:12:14.600 --> 01:12:17.000 actually true or not, that's a different question, but he definitely does believe 983 01:12:17.079 --> 01:12:25.199 that any wrong move he might make is going to make the Turkish government angry, 984 01:12:25.319 --> 01:12:28.600 and that's one of the reasons why he is very much aligning himself to 985 01:12:28.640 --> 01:12:31.680 the US government. For the same reason why the Chemical Patriarch allied with the 986 01:12:31.680 --> 01:12:38.439 British government right during the during the conflicts during the First World War and m 987 01:12:38.479 --> 01:12:42.399 the aftermath off it, which which is why, right the initial Turkish policy 988 01:12:42.439 --> 01:12:45.560 of skepticism towards their chemical patriarch it ended up being in the case is because 989 01:12:45.800 --> 01:12:48.359 while you guys sided with the British and now we've got the country back, 990 01:12:48.439 --> 01:12:50.880 so what are you guys going to do about it? Right? And this 991 01:12:50.960 --> 01:12:55.000 is why there's the whole Turkish patriarch a story and all of that. I 992 01:12:55.039 --> 01:12:57.520 guess that's a different story. But I mean, I have I have hope. 993 01:12:57.520 --> 01:13:00.000 I think there's certain things they do properly that you can look at at 994 01:13:00.119 --> 01:13:03.159 the jurisdictions that they don't properly do. There's also a lot of problems that 995 01:13:03.239 --> 01:13:06.000 needs to be sold. But I think I think the source of a lot 996 01:13:06.000 --> 01:13:10.960 of the issues that people have, probably with regards to Ukraine, which I 997 01:13:11.000 --> 01:13:14.439 can say very clearly that I definitely think the Comical Patriarch is wrong on the 998 01:13:14.479 --> 01:13:21.239 Ukraine situation. A lot of it is because of geopolitical situation and EPs alliance, 999 01:13:21.479 --> 01:13:25.880 whether they want to or not, EPs alliance with the United States government 1000 01:13:25.920 --> 01:13:28.680 and the aftermath of it. I don't think they should be allied with the 1001 01:13:28.720 --> 01:13:30.920 United States, but you know, you can't really say they should be allied 1002 01:13:30.960 --> 01:13:35.279 with Russiated because Russia has a history of kind of just using different nations and 1003 01:13:35.279 --> 01:13:38.680 groups and kind of just say okay, I used you and I'll get away, 1004 01:13:38.800 --> 01:13:41.239 right, So Russia does have a history of doing that, which is 1005 01:13:41.239 --> 01:13:43.800 why it's it's not as simple as it looks like. That's kind of my 1006 01:13:44.000 --> 01:13:49.199 take on the ecumenical patriarch it as as someone who lives in is stumbled right, 1007 01:13:49.239 --> 01:13:54.279 So what would you say, jay As, Like, what was your 1008 01:13:54.319 --> 01:14:00.960 take on the Greek church in mostly you know abroad, I understand what you're 1009 01:14:01.000 --> 01:14:04.199 saying. You know, it gets complex in other countries. I mean in 1010 01:14:04.239 --> 01:14:10.800 the United States, it's it's pretty cut and dry typically when it comes to 1011 01:14:10.880 --> 01:14:15.840 what you can and should and shouldn't support. And so you know, a 1012 01:14:15.840 --> 01:14:19.920 lot of the the GOA is pretty bad news in the US, and so 1013 01:14:20.119 --> 01:14:24.560 I would just say, like Father McHale did a video last night that was 1014 01:14:24.600 --> 01:14:28.479 really good where he was talking about how you know, you know, don't 1015 01:14:28.520 --> 01:14:30.000 you don't need to be giving these people your money. So it's time to 1016 01:14:30.079 --> 01:14:33.960 move on to in my view, churches that are are more faithful. So 1017 01:14:34.039 --> 01:14:38.560 try to find one that's more faithful, because if in the United States. 1018 01:14:38.680 --> 01:14:42.520 Unfortunately, a lot of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese is basically just an adjunct of 1019 01:14:42.520 --> 01:14:45.640 the Democratic Party openly. So, I mean, the Democratic Party is crazy, 1020 01:14:45.720 --> 01:14:50.720 So why are you supporting these people? It's just nuts, I mean, 1021 01:14:50.840 --> 01:14:53.880 and they make it very easy for you to figure out, like you 1022 01:14:53.880 --> 01:14:56.159 have to go get some PhD to figure out, you know, what these 1023 01:14:56.159 --> 01:15:00.279 people are supporting. It's all public, so I would, yeah, I 1024 01:15:00.279 --> 01:15:04.159 don't support these people. Vote with your dollars. Mm, yeah, I 1025 01:15:04.239 --> 01:15:09.439 think that's uh yeah, I And like in in here there's kind of like, 1026 01:15:10.600 --> 01:15:13.159 I guess I actually, never mind, I'm not going to talk about 1027 01:15:13.199 --> 01:15:15.760 them because they don't they don't deserve publicity, so I'll maybe I'll save it 1028 01:15:15.800 --> 01:15:23.119 for another day. But um, so it seems like there's someone mad in 1029 01:15:23.199 --> 01:15:30.520 the light chat. Well what about yeah, uh, they're they're a Monophysite 1030 01:15:30.640 --> 01:15:33.279 who calls us, Oh yeah, he says you that story. Heretics believe 1031 01:15:33.319 --> 01:15:39.079 a christis two nature's tubls, two energies, two minds, which is yes, 1032 01:15:39.199 --> 01:15:44.079 we do believe that. Um, because he's human and divine being human 1033 01:15:44.119 --> 01:15:46.760 means you have a human vill So he has a human vill in divine ville. 1034 01:15:47.159 --> 01:15:50.680 Being human means he has human activities, which means he has two energies. 1035 01:15:50.720 --> 01:15:56.239 Being human means he has a human mind. So there's no shame in 1036 01:15:56.239 --> 01:16:00.880 admitting that. What is shameful is actually thinking that or position is shameful. 1037 01:16:00.880 --> 01:16:06.079 In his position, it leads to try teasm because by that logic mind energy 1038 01:16:06.119 --> 01:16:10.119 will all of these will be proper to the person, proper to hyper stasis. 1039 01:16:10.159 --> 01:16:12.439 There are three hype statis in the trinity, therefore there will be three 1040 01:16:12.520 --> 01:16:15.720 vols. Well, rich church father believes that none of them, not a 1041 01:16:15.800 --> 01:16:20.600 single one of them. They condemned this as heresy. So yeah, that's 1042 01:16:20.600 --> 01:16:25.279 all I will say to that, to that nonsense. So I appreciate a 1043 01:16:25.279 --> 01:16:28.199 two dollars super chat or to Eric, But I guess that's that's basically how 1044 01:16:28.239 --> 01:16:30.479 I will will kind of do, and I will already have a massive playlist 1045 01:16:30.520 --> 01:16:33.359 on this issue. A lot of these people, just a lot of these 1046 01:16:33.359 --> 01:16:36.239 people just cope, and a lot of these people don't even listen, they 1047 01:16:36.239 --> 01:16:41.079 don't even read. They just make these propaganda lines and they try to agitate. 1048 01:16:41.479 --> 01:16:45.000 But what I see is that I see a lot of people Ethiopians, 1049 01:16:45.119 --> 01:16:48.319 Syriacs, cops that actually look at the material you present, look at the 1050 01:16:48.399 --> 01:16:51.119 arguments we present, and actually do become orthodox. I've heard I've seen a 1051 01:16:51.119 --> 01:16:55.800 lot of people, particularly Ethiopians, some of them marine even in the chat 1052 01:16:55.880 --> 01:17:00.600 here, that actually became orthodox because they saw the same thing that I am 1053 01:17:00.640 --> 01:17:04.640 talking about right now, right that the monoposie position on Christ is heretical because 1054 01:17:04.640 --> 01:17:11.479 it leads to various different heresies of triteism to even the Storianism. As a 1055 01:17:11.520 --> 01:17:14.640 matter of fact, it is just a different side of the coin. But 1056 01:17:14.960 --> 01:17:17.399 it still used the same piece of theological piece of positions that the story has 1057 01:17:17.479 --> 01:17:23.279 had. So I think people are interesting. Chick can check that playlist. 1058 01:17:23.359 --> 01:17:30.720 But one okay, Frankie d another ten dollars super chat. I appreciate it, 1059 01:17:30.760 --> 01:17:33.680 He asked, Jay. Are there icons that explained the theological reality but 1060 01:17:33.840 --> 01:17:39.520 not the historical reality, such as the icon of Ascension and Pentecost which shows 1061 01:17:39.520 --> 01:17:45.000 Paul present with the apostles, but he wasn't there. Yeah, but if 1062 01:17:45.039 --> 01:17:48.640 you look at the argumentation as to that that actually comes up in the iconography 1063 01:17:49.760 --> 01:17:58.239 chapter in this and the dispute is over. Even though Paul wasn't there in 1064 01:17:58.319 --> 01:18:01.840 terms of time and space, he is there in terms of the theology. 1065 01:18:02.000 --> 01:18:09.920 So the point is not that every icon is only depicting historical events. The 1066 01:18:10.279 --> 01:18:15.199 icons are depicting historical and eternal realities at once. Both. It's a both 1067 01:18:15.359 --> 01:18:20.600 end. So you misunderstood my comment, my clarification as if I was saying 1068 01:18:20.640 --> 01:18:27.920 that icons are only depicting historical realities. They're depicting historical realities and eternal realities 1069 01:18:28.000 --> 01:18:34.640 at the same time. And sometimes those theological realities surpass and transcend historical realities. 1070 01:18:34.680 --> 01:18:39.119 But that's not a denial of the historical reality. Because there's a debate. 1071 01:18:39.119 --> 01:18:44.079 There's a discussion over whether Paul is present there because he's one of the 1072 01:18:44.119 --> 01:18:53.640 apostles, even though he wasn't literally standing there at at Pentecost. Yeah, 1073 01:18:53.680 --> 01:19:02.039 and another question that someone had is from Lewis. I think that's tense Fis 1074 01:19:02.039 --> 01:19:09.000 Franks think you appreciate the super chat. He asked, if the Bible forbids 1075 01:19:09.079 --> 01:19:11.760 drinking blood, why do we drink Jesus blood and the eu Chris The short 1076 01:19:11.760 --> 01:19:15.840 answer I will give is that the blood is the life, and so the 1077 01:19:15.920 --> 01:19:21.640 life of animals are sacrificed to God. Basically, that's very basically putting it. 1078 01:19:21.680 --> 01:19:25.960 And we partake of the life of Christ himself. That's why we take 1079 01:19:25.960 --> 01:19:29.720 to Eu Chris and because that life that Christ himself has is shared to us 1080 01:19:29.720 --> 01:19:33.119 for our salvation. So that's the basic take that I will have. So, 1081 01:19:33.279 --> 01:19:38.359 Jay, I mean the Old Testament, the forbidding of blood is has 1082 01:19:38.399 --> 01:19:43.760 to do with death and coming in contact with death. And so you're not 1083 01:19:43.800 --> 01:19:46.000 supposed to eat if you're going to eat an animal in the Old Testament, 1084 01:19:46.000 --> 01:19:48.359 it has to have you know, Nope, you have to have the blood 1085 01:19:48.439 --> 01:19:55.520 drained. Right. This is the whole basis behind how Jews you know, 1086 01:19:55.640 --> 01:19:59.880 do kosher meats and all that stuff. So, but the point is that 1087 01:20:00.800 --> 01:20:05.000 it's not blood itself that is bad. It's that you can't be in contact 1088 01:20:05.000 --> 01:20:09.760 with death in the Old Testament because it makes you unclean. That's symbolic for 1089 01:20:10.840 --> 01:20:16.119 moral death and spiritual death. And so Christ in the Eucharist is giving us 1090 01:20:16.159 --> 01:20:18.760 his blood. That is not the blood of a dead man. It's not 1091 01:20:18.800 --> 01:20:24.279 a human sacrifice. It is the deifying energies of the god Man. And 1092 01:20:24.319 --> 01:20:32.640 that's why the liturgy calls it the bloodless noetic sacrifice. Yeah, let's see, 1093 01:20:32.720 --> 01:20:40.600 all right. Next question is from Axios five pounds appreciate the support he 1094 01:20:40.680 --> 01:20:44.479 has. How will we best explain the Orthodox position on statues? You CBS 1095 01:20:44.479 --> 01:20:47.760 and Ecclesiastical History book A chapter eighteen makes reference to an ancient statue of Christ. 1096 01:20:48.079 --> 01:20:50.520 The basic answer I will say is that, well, that statue is 1097 01:20:50.560 --> 01:20:54.479 out in public, right, so it's a it's a statue that's for decorative 1098 01:20:54.520 --> 01:20:58.680 purposes, So it's not a statue that is in the church. If we 1099 01:20:58.760 --> 01:21:01.560 don't have statues in churches ninety nine point nine percent of the time, because 1100 01:21:01.560 --> 01:21:06.520 statues are part of secular artistry. Iconography is the religious art of the church, 1101 01:21:06.520 --> 01:21:11.600 and that's that's why it's in churches. However, statues in public, 1102 01:21:12.680 --> 01:21:16.000 and as Eusebious is describing, my personal take on it is that I don't 1103 01:21:16.039 --> 01:21:20.520 see it as a problem. I think it's just a showcasing of Christian artistry 1104 01:21:20.520 --> 01:21:26.000 in public, but it is not like it's an icon That's basically what I 1105 01:21:26.039 --> 01:21:30.239 will say, though I will still I guess I will venerate, but there's 1106 01:21:30.279 --> 01:21:34.600 I think we still need to distinguish between religious art that is iconography that the 1107 01:21:34.680 --> 01:21:41.199 church possesses and kind of the secular modes of art that people use in order 1108 01:21:41.239 --> 01:21:50.279 to make images and pictures of Christ within that context. Anything you'd like to 1109 01:21:50.319 --> 01:21:54.039 add on, No, I mean I think that's you stated it really well. 1110 01:21:54.119 --> 01:22:00.920 Yeah, I mean icons are liturgical, so they teach theology and have 1111 01:22:00.920 --> 01:22:02.920 a place within the liturgy and the Seventh Council, and you know, the 1112 01:22:03.199 --> 01:22:10.520 icon councils distinguished that from like David said, you know, secular art. 1113 01:22:10.640 --> 01:22:14.439 So you know, if you think about like Renaissance art styles and all that. 1114 01:22:14.760 --> 01:22:17.319 Now, I don't really have a problem with all that stuff. It's 1115 01:22:17.359 --> 01:22:21.920 just that that's different than what's in the liturgy, and that's the big that's 1116 01:22:21.920 --> 01:22:25.520 the big issue here. So people want to make statues. I don't think 1117 01:22:25.560 --> 01:22:30.479 there's anything wrong with that. Constant four. Thank you for the five pound 1118 01:22:30.680 --> 01:22:34.039 super chat, he says, Jay must of the friend watched your Rashid debate, 1119 01:22:34.199 --> 01:22:39.479 found you compelling and a fallacious, amazing work. He's more receptive towards 1120 01:22:39.479 --> 01:22:43.880 the docent trinity, now, right, that's that was definitely one of the 1121 01:22:44.000 --> 01:22:48.000 that's great. Thank you. Yeah, I never know how people are receiving 1122 01:22:48.000 --> 01:22:51.840 those debates, because that one got really kind of high level, you know, 1123 01:22:51.920 --> 01:22:57.359 metaphysics, So I don't I don't know, I never know how how 1124 01:22:57.399 --> 01:23:00.680 well that is translating to the audience. But I'm glad to hear that. 1125 01:23:01.800 --> 01:23:05.279 Yeah, and I and I will definitely say right. Like those kinds of 1126 01:23:05.319 --> 01:23:09.319 debates, I think they definitely. One of the things that I notice in 1127 01:23:09.359 --> 01:23:12.239 the aftermath of that debate is that a lot of people are starting the question 1128 01:23:12.319 --> 01:23:15.239 specifics in Islamic Theolgravitch. No one did it before, right. So one 1129 01:23:15.279 --> 01:23:17.640 of the things that recently occurred, not recently, but a year ago, 1130 01:23:18.279 --> 01:23:23.039 was about, well, what is the relationship between Allah and his properties? 1131 01:23:23.119 --> 01:23:26.880 Right? Because the whole argument against the trinity that a lot of Muslims use 1132 01:23:27.399 --> 01:23:32.560 is predicated on on the idea that there's just God and you can't have anything 1133 01:23:32.640 --> 01:23:36.840 coeternal ven Him. And you know, if you do that, then you 1134 01:23:36.960 --> 01:23:41.600 just do simple counting, simple mathematics. And that's the argument that they use. 1135 01:23:41.720 --> 01:23:45.880 But the you know, the the names of Allah that refer to properties, 1136 01:23:46.079 --> 01:23:50.479 are they distinct or they not distinct? Now, most Sunni Muslim sects, 1137 01:23:50.720 --> 01:23:56.800 and that is Akida's creeds. Rather they will say actually, yes, 1138 01:23:56.840 --> 01:24:01.159 they're distinct. But then that completely undermines their whole argument against the trinity, 1139 01:24:01.159 --> 01:24:06.239 because they themselves admit that there are distinct things from God that are divine, 1140 01:24:06.399 --> 01:24:10.479 that are coeternal with him, that exists with him, and are distinct with 1141 01:24:10.600 --> 01:24:14.479 him, so usually count those two. So there's basically a hundred all loss 1142 01:24:14.880 --> 01:24:18.239 by that logic. Right. So a lot of their arguments are based on 1143 01:24:19.239 --> 01:24:26.079 like very simplistic understandings of theology, and once you think about it a little 1144 01:24:26.119 --> 01:24:29.960 bit, it starts to it all starts to crumble, and it all ends 1145 01:24:30.000 --> 01:24:34.920 up degenerating into a low IQ discourse. Like like one of the arguments that 1146 01:24:34.960 --> 01:24:40.279 people still point out, it's like, how was how did Christ? How 1147 01:24:40.359 --> 01:24:43.840 was Christ born of the Virgin Mary? Event? And how did Christ do 1148 01:24:44.119 --> 01:24:48.079 natural defecation? And stuff that doesn't make any sense to me kind of arguments. 1149 01:24:48.119 --> 01:24:53.000 Then just one look at the whole theology of original sin Orthodox It can't 1150 01:24:53.000 --> 01:24:55.840 have answers as a questions. Already Christ did not have original sins, so 1151 01:24:55.960 --> 01:25:00.239 all of these things you're talking about that he didn't have those things, right, 1152 01:25:00.880 --> 01:25:05.119 you know. So that's basically how I will look at it. Max 1153 01:25:05.159 --> 01:25:09.640 the Confessor of five Dollars super chat appreciate it. He says, why there's 1154 01:25:09.640 --> 01:25:14.319 so many triteist in the Storian and monozzolat tendencies in Protestantism. They try to 1155 01:25:14.359 --> 01:25:18.119 explain everything from Villa. I kind of don't answer yet that last point, 1156 01:25:18.159 --> 01:25:29.800 but pology answered this question good. Yeah. I think that the Protestant tendencies 1157 01:25:30.119 --> 01:25:34.640 are what they are because they don't really have a coherent theology of the Trinity 1158 01:25:34.720 --> 01:25:41.560 or Christology, so they just kind of go with, you know, cliches 1159 01:25:41.680 --> 01:25:45.359 or things that they think sound good, or things that they think the Bible's 1160 01:25:45.399 --> 01:25:48.279 teaching, and a lot of times they don't know, you know, what 1161 01:25:48.439 --> 01:25:54.520 mistakes they're making. But it's just basically that, you know, Protestantism comes 1162 01:25:54.520 --> 01:26:00.239 out of a you know, it's it's basically Augustinian Roman Catholicism that's kind of 1163 01:26:00.319 --> 01:26:08.520 purified of Roman Catholic trappings. So it's going to fall into the dialectical tendencies 1164 01:26:08.640 --> 01:26:18.239 that a strict Augustinian theology contained. Yeah, I think it is as you 1165 01:26:18.279 --> 01:26:24.520 said. I think one thing I noticed when I first became Orthodox was that 1166 01:26:24.600 --> 01:26:31.479 there was a very heavy emphasis on correct Trinitarian and Christological theology. Right, 1167 01:26:31.520 --> 01:26:36.039 there's a very very heavy emphasis on that. And I don't have experience in 1168 01:26:36.079 --> 01:26:39.640 protestantstems, so I don't know how it is there. But in Nortstocks, 1169 01:26:39.680 --> 01:26:43.239 even I listened to the liturgy, when I listened to certain specific terms, 1170 01:26:43.279 --> 01:26:45.600 like you know, the hymn of Saint Justinian, only begone son in the 1171 01:26:45.600 --> 01:26:47.760 world of God, I kind of just thought of it as well, why 1172 01:26:47.760 --> 01:26:50.119 are they, like, what's the point of saying this? This is kind 1173 01:26:50.159 --> 01:26:54.840 of just I guess, I guess it's cool or whatever, But you realize 1174 01:26:54.880 --> 01:27:00.279 that actually there's there are very good reasons why these concepts in terms of using 1175 01:27:00.319 --> 01:27:03.520 the liturgy over and over again so that people can know about um these basic 1176 01:27:03.600 --> 01:27:09.079 fundamental things. Right. So, one thing I noticed, especially in Calvinism, 1177 01:27:09.279 --> 01:27:13.479 is that their monergism, which is the which is basically the idea that 1178 01:27:13.560 --> 01:27:16.800 salvation is affected is effective only by the divine will. Right, it doesn't. 1179 01:27:16.800 --> 01:27:19.319 It's not a synergy, but it's just only the divine wills. Only 1180 01:27:19.319 --> 01:27:23.960 God saves. And it's it's this choice and the choice of man doesn't matter 1181 01:27:24.760 --> 01:27:29.600 that really affects the christology because then well, the whole incarnation and the work 1182 01:27:29.640 --> 01:27:32.680 of the incarnation that Christ did, that is a part of the solveific work. 1183 01:27:32.760 --> 01:27:36.119 Now you can't say then that there are two bills in Christ one divine, 1184 01:27:36.159 --> 01:27:39.960 one human, because if you said such a thing, then you will 1185 01:27:40.000 --> 01:27:45.159 be attributing attributing humanity a part of the work of salvation that is exclusive to 1186 01:27:45.199 --> 01:27:48.800 God alone in the Calvinist system, right, So there's I think there's in 1187 01:27:49.159 --> 01:27:54.159 orthodoxy, you start with the trinitarian theology, right, you start with God 1188 01:27:54.560 --> 01:27:58.399 and that that's what where you get the outworking of the rest of the things, 1189 01:27:58.520 --> 01:28:02.640 right with sacraments toology in Protestants submits the other day around. So it's 1190 01:28:02.720 --> 01:28:06.560 it's just like specific Bible verses and it picts of theology off of that, 1191 01:28:06.680 --> 01:28:10.680 and then they do try to Tranto and theeology that kind of makes sense with 1192 01:28:10.760 --> 01:28:14.119 that in Christology and so and so forth. And this is I think the 1193 01:28:14.199 --> 01:28:18.600 source of a lot of the Nestorian when not to lie triteistic and other interpretations 1194 01:28:18.600 --> 01:28:25.279 and understandings in that exist in various forms of Protestantism. Aside from that, 1195 01:28:25.399 --> 01:28:30.479 it also I think it stems from just kind of a lack of knowledge about 1196 01:28:30.640 --> 01:28:35.119 church disputes, because that really helps you to come to understand what's the correct 1197 01:28:35.159 --> 01:28:39.319 way to look at it, and kind of just like a d emphasis on 1198 01:28:39.359 --> 01:28:42.840 the theological look on the Bible aside from oh, you know, how can 1199 01:28:42.880 --> 01:28:45.399 we prove that Jesus is God in the Bible? Right? Like there's that 1200 01:28:45.520 --> 01:28:48.479 focus, but aside from that is not that much of a much of a 1201 01:28:48.520 --> 01:28:53.560 focus on that point. It Would you agree with that or do you have 1202 01:28:53.560 --> 01:28:57.680 anything else to add in regards to that? Yeah? I think that you 1203 01:28:57.720 --> 01:29:02.880 know, Calvinism starts as theology with predestination and the divine decree, so that's 1204 01:29:03.000 --> 01:29:08.239 gonna condition the rest of the theology to be determined by will. So that's 1205 01:29:08.239 --> 01:29:13.000 probably what you're talking about here, and it doesn't give a place to secondary 1206 01:29:13.079 --> 01:29:16.720 causes, to creatures having their own will and energy. Um. Yeah, 1207 01:29:16.760 --> 01:29:25.760 that's that's that's it. Um a question someone had in the light chat. 1208 01:29:25.840 --> 01:29:28.439 I think, yeah, it's pretty much We've pretty much been true whole at 1209 01:29:28.439 --> 01:29:31.560 the superchat questions as they as they came. But one thing I did prom 1210 01:29:31.720 --> 01:29:38.439 because I did promise him, is that have you seen the um what was 1211 01:29:38.479 --> 01:29:45.399 that that the icon Zelenski gave to Pope Francis that had like instead of having 1212 01:29:45.479 --> 01:29:49.640 Christ, it had just like a blank screen like it's an unlockable character or 1213 01:29:49.680 --> 01:29:55.680 something like that. Yeah, Like, well, what was that whole whole 1214 01:29:55.720 --> 01:30:00.159 thing about well, you know, supposedly it was to symbolize the lives of 1215 01:30:00.239 --> 01:30:05.039 children that were lost. Uh, I don't know, but yeah, I 1216 01:30:05.079 --> 01:30:10.479 think that it also seemed to be maybe even on a deeper level, true 1217 01:30:10.520 --> 01:30:15.720 symbolic of the fact that you know, that regime and that that whole expression 1218 01:30:15.760 --> 01:30:20.199 has essentially lost and doesn't believe in Christ. I mean, if you watch 1219 01:30:20.239 --> 01:30:25.640 Father McHale's video last night, he talks about how they're already using the Phillyoaquay 1220 01:30:25.960 --> 01:30:30.560 right, the the so called fake Orthodox Church there's residing in Philly Oakua. 1221 01:30:30.439 --> 01:30:35.319 Uh, they are, um, you know, they're already engaged into Cumanist 1222 01:30:35.359 --> 01:30:40.920 activities. So I mean, I think that's a fitting symbol. Yeah, 1223 01:30:40.960 --> 01:30:45.439 we don't, we don't want Christ anymore. Yeah, I think that that's 1224 01:30:45.479 --> 01:30:53.119 that like my general take on this situation as well as that because I want 1225 01:30:53.159 --> 01:30:56.960 to make it clear, like it's not because I I'm afraid that I might 1226 01:30:56.960 --> 01:31:00.560 be interpreted that I generally like, I'm not like pro Russian in this whole 1227 01:31:00.760 --> 01:31:04.760 situation that's going on, because I think there's some issues that Russian needs to 1228 01:31:04.800 --> 01:31:09.359 solve, and in both in regards to this issue and both in regards to 1229 01:31:09.359 --> 01:31:13.399 the Church what it is doing, particularly in Africa, even though you know 1230 01:31:13.439 --> 01:31:15.840 there's there's no OCE debates in regards to that, but you know, I 1231 01:31:15.880 --> 01:31:19.600 still think they're wrong in that regard what Russia is doing in certain geopolitical senses. 1232 01:31:20.760 --> 01:31:24.479 It's not all of it is something that I will completely back, but 1233 01:31:24.840 --> 01:31:28.880 one thing I can definitely say without feeling any shame, is that I think 1234 01:31:29.000 --> 01:31:35.159 Ukraine as a country as it is led right now right is definitely wrong in 1235 01:31:35.359 --> 01:31:40.159 multiple levels, in geopolitical levels and religious levels, and I think there definitely 1236 01:31:40.199 --> 01:31:43.720 needs to be a change in regards to that. How that change of cures 1237 01:31:43.840 --> 01:31:46.399 I don't know, but there definitely needs to be something that needs to happen 1238 01:31:46.880 --> 01:31:51.199 that that fixes that basically the problem that they have, because I mean, 1239 01:31:51.520 --> 01:31:55.920 it's, as I said, like it's it's it looks like an iconon it's 1240 01:31:56.000 --> 01:31:58.720 literally a corruption, right, it's like a demand of corruption. It looks 1241 01:31:58.760 --> 01:32:02.920 like an iconography. It's opposed to be an icon but it inserts earthly teams 1242 01:32:02.960 --> 01:32:05.560 into it, which I guess you can kind of it can be cute about 1243 01:32:05.560 --> 01:32:11.840 it, but it does so at the expense of Christ. It takes the 1244 01:32:11.880 --> 01:32:16.399 focus away from Christ and it puts it into something else, and that whole, 1245 01:32:16.840 --> 01:32:21.359 that whole thing, that whole idea itself is I will say, fundamentally 1246 01:32:23.279 --> 01:32:29.319 fundamentally demonic. And I think you know that there are certain activities, spiritual 1247 01:32:29.359 --> 01:32:36.560 activities that are certainly helping or guiding the leadership of Ukraine. I will definitely 1248 01:32:36.600 --> 01:32:40.399 say, especially with what happened with the whole Key of Love or situation, 1249 01:32:40.439 --> 01:32:45.760 it's absolutely absolutely disgusting, especially in light of the fact that the Ukraine or 1250 01:32:45.880 --> 01:32:49.359 the Orthodox Church in Ukraine, led by Metropolunifrid, everything they can to distance 1251 01:32:49.399 --> 01:32:53.800 themselves from Russia, from the Russian Church, and it still happens. So 1252 01:32:53.840 --> 01:32:57.199 it goes to show that what their real intention is, and it is to 1253 01:32:57.399 --> 01:33:04.720 destroy godleness and order. Basically, Joshua asked to tell a super chat appreciate. 1254 01:33:04.800 --> 01:33:09.560 He asked, why don't you like ancient Fate radio. It's because they 1255 01:33:09.640 --> 01:33:16.479 had They promote certain completely heterodox things, and they don't do anything about anything 1256 01:33:16.479 --> 01:33:21.359 to fix They are too lukewarm. That's the basics that I will say, 1257 01:33:21.399 --> 01:33:26.399 is that they're basically way to lukewarm. There's some good content there and then 1258 01:33:26.439 --> 01:33:30.039 there's some absolutely horrendous content that no one should look at. And I think 1259 01:33:30.279 --> 01:33:33.760 they really try to appeal to They really try to make orthodoxy like appeal to 1260 01:33:33.840 --> 01:33:39.279 normalis, which in a sense, okay, that's cool if you can do 1261 01:33:39.319 --> 01:33:43.800 it in terms of packaging. But they when they mix certain doctrines into that 1262 01:33:43.920 --> 01:33:45.680 normal packaging, I think that's the big problem. And then they have a 1263 01:33:45.760 --> 01:33:49.359 huge tendency to do something like that. So those are my basic reasons, 1264 01:33:49.600 --> 01:33:55.039 right. Yeah, they've been pushing for a long time all kinds of water 1265 01:33:55.159 --> 01:33:59.760 down heterodox ideas, you know, promoting authors that are pushing for women pre 1266 01:34:00.279 --> 01:34:09.319 I mean promoting authors that you know, attend a Roshan events, Skittles events. 1267 01:34:09.359 --> 01:34:15.119 I mean that just should be obvious too if you're familiar with what they 1268 01:34:15.319 --> 01:34:17.560 what they push. I mean they've been doing it for like twenty years. 1269 01:34:17.560 --> 01:34:24.680 So yeah, we already have videos and streams talking about this, specifically Marked 1270 01:34:24.680 --> 01:34:27.920 with the twenty big twenty dollars super chat. Appreciate it, Mark, He 1271 01:34:27.960 --> 01:34:30.239 says, love both of your works. Will love to see you both in 1272 01:34:30.319 --> 01:34:33.479 tract more of these Protestant pop apologists, But Sally, I don't think they're 1273 01:34:33.560 --> 01:34:36.520 very interested, will be and you will be in over their heads. I 1274 01:34:36.600 --> 01:34:44.439 mean, I have people so Transhorn made the tweet saying that they should do 1275 01:34:44.479 --> 01:34:48.279 a round table between an Orthodox and Roman Catholic and a Protestant icon veneration, 1276 01:34:48.319 --> 01:34:53.520 and I'm the icon veneration guy. He suggests to create truly, which I 1277 01:34:53.520 --> 01:34:56.359 guess you can do that too, But to my knowledge, that didn't happen. 1278 01:34:56.479 --> 01:35:00.479 And the suggestion of having me appear since at that time it recently made 1279 01:35:00.520 --> 01:35:03.920 the video and icon veneration, right, it was all it was fresh, 1280 01:35:03.960 --> 01:35:08.199 and you know, the whole thing on this, the whole debate start because 1281 01:35:08.359 --> 01:35:12.119 of Ortland's video and icon veneration and so and so forth. A lot of 1282 01:35:12.119 --> 01:35:15.079 people actually suggested, I think it's even ratio the Transforms post. A lot 1283 01:35:15.119 --> 01:35:18.119 of people suggested that I shall appear and this shall happen and I shall be 1284 01:35:18.199 --> 01:35:21.520 on that, you know, And I didn't get any return from Trent. 1285 01:35:21.560 --> 01:35:26.680 I didn't get any return from Ortland, and I didn't think that round table 1286 01:35:26.680 --> 01:35:30.039 will happen even with Craig. I think not even with Craig. They're trying 1287 01:35:30.079 --> 01:35:32.199 to do this, So I think I think that goes to show. I 1288 01:35:32.199 --> 01:35:36.720 mean, I'm well, it's well for according to a lot of people. 1289 01:35:38.239 --> 01:35:41.159 I am a very bad person too, even though I don't think I've done 1290 01:35:41.159 --> 01:35:45.680 anything to justify it. And it works because with like normy people, that 1291 01:35:45.840 --> 01:35:49.119 kind of pushes them away from like looking at the material that I present. 1292 01:35:49.520 --> 01:35:56.760 Basically, So I think that is definitely cut part of smear campaign that is 1293 01:35:56.760 --> 01:35:59.439 an actual to YouTube people do it all the time, like the whole smearing 1294 01:35:59.439 --> 01:36:03.319 stuff to avoid people from engaging specific groups of people. I understand that. 1295 01:36:03.439 --> 01:36:06.520 So I don't think that's really going to happen anytime soon, not just with 1296 01:36:06.760 --> 01:36:11.960 icon veneration, but with basically anything, because frankly speaking, I think a 1297 01:36:11.960 --> 01:36:16.000 lot of Protestants are afraid of actual proper dialogue and they want dialogue in their 1298 01:36:16.159 --> 01:36:19.960 dialogue in their own terms. But once you enforce your own terms to other 1299 01:36:20.000 --> 01:36:25.359 people, that's not a dialogue. That's a monologue with h with just a 1300 01:36:25.399 --> 01:36:29.359 monologue or allowing the other person to speak at times they want him to speak 1301 01:36:29.359 --> 01:36:31.640 in certain ways that they want him to speak. So that's that's my generale 1302 01:36:31.720 --> 01:36:35.960 take on a lot of these Protestants, even Roman Catholic people, even some 1303 01:36:36.079 --> 01:36:40.760 Orthodox people. To be honest, right, it's I think the preferred method, 1304 01:36:41.199 --> 01:36:44.960 especially with people like us with you and I j is smear and then 1305 01:36:45.000 --> 01:36:47.039 push them away. These people are crazy, they don't they won't let you 1306 01:36:47.079 --> 01:36:51.079 speak. They're they're horrible people. Let them, you know, stay in 1307 01:36:51.119 --> 01:36:55.880 their echo chamber, which is ironic because we're the ones that want to talk, 1308 01:36:56.000 --> 01:36:58.119 right, we don't want to stay in. But yeah, it's just 1309 01:36:58.159 --> 01:37:00.079 an excuse. It's obvious that it's an ex use. I mean, there 1310 01:37:00.119 --> 01:37:06.880 was going to be a roundtable that Trent suggested a year ago on apologetic methodology, 1311 01:37:08.199 --> 01:37:11.920 and nobody wanted to do that. So I mean I did, and 1312 01:37:12.199 --> 01:37:15.880 like David saying he did, and uh, yeah, nobody. Nobody wants 1313 01:37:15.920 --> 01:37:19.840 to do that because they you know, it's just you know, I think 1314 01:37:19.880 --> 01:37:25.159 if if you're confident in your position, like you're not worried about having these 1315 01:37:25.239 --> 01:37:29.720 kinds of discussions, you're not worried about new information, you know, shaking 1316 01:37:29.720 --> 01:37:32.760 your paradigm or something like that. But I think that people that are not 1317 01:37:32.920 --> 01:37:38.760 confident in their positions or they're they're wavering, they're they're scared, they're afraid 1318 01:37:38.840 --> 01:37:42.720 that they'll end up looking bad or something like that, and so you know, 1319 01:37:42.760 --> 01:37:45.680 they consistently use the excuse of well they're mean. Well, the only 1320 01:37:45.720 --> 01:37:49.039 times that we've been quote mean is when you know, we have to deal 1321 01:37:49.119 --> 01:37:55.000 with actual, uh you know, subversive and ridiculous people who are malicious. 1322 01:37:55.439 --> 01:37:59.680 And so the fact that we deal with those people in a firm and also 1323 01:38:00.439 --> 01:38:04.520 satirical way is I think the proper way to handle these people. Now, 1324 01:38:04.640 --> 01:38:10.399 there have been past instances where on blood sports which were not formal debates, 1325 01:38:10.960 --> 01:38:14.279 it's just you know, people acting ridiculous on the internet. Yeah, so 1326 01:38:14.359 --> 01:38:16.640 what if I, you know, made fun of somebody in a in a 1327 01:38:16.720 --> 01:38:20.079 non formal debate, and then they take those examples and say, look, 1328 01:38:20.119 --> 01:38:23.680 all he does is yell at people, and that's not true. There's like 1329 01:38:24.119 --> 01:38:29.479 twenty debates where nobody's yelling at anybody. Everything's perfectly civil. But it should 1330 01:38:29.560 --> 01:38:32.199 be transparent that these are just excuses because they don't want to deal with the 1331 01:38:32.239 --> 01:38:38.039 people that would probably present the best case and so you know they're gonna they 1332 01:38:38.119 --> 01:38:43.680 want to stay in a little bubble of people like Cameron from cuting Christianity or 1333 01:38:43.720 --> 01:38:47.680 whatever. Yeah. One thing I want to adv it like this is this 1334 01:38:47.760 --> 01:38:53.199 is a general principle that I just generally apply to things like interactions online and 1335 01:38:53.560 --> 01:38:56.880 things and it's kind of like a it's based on my experience, and it's 1336 01:38:56.880 --> 01:39:00.159 a self it's a respecting self. Respect and respect about this kind of thing. 1337 01:39:00.039 --> 01:39:03.479 I typically, even if they want to debate me, I don't engage 1338 01:39:03.520 --> 01:39:08.479 with people who unjustifiably smear me and attack me, because why would I want 1339 01:39:08.479 --> 01:39:11.319 to give these people platform? Why would I want to legitimize If you're going 1340 01:39:11.359 --> 01:39:14.159 to do something like that and you want to have me all, you better 1341 01:39:14.319 --> 01:39:16.880 make it work for me. So maybe if you have a decent audience and 1342 01:39:17.119 --> 01:39:21.520 allow me to speak to a lot of people, maybe okay, I'll let 1343 01:39:21.560 --> 01:39:26.279 that slide. But that's kind of the way I look at things because I 1344 01:39:26.319 --> 01:39:28.920 think it's just a smart way to look at it, because at the end 1345 01:39:28.920 --> 01:39:32.920 of the day, I don't want to legitimize people attacking my personal life or 1346 01:39:32.960 --> 01:39:38.720 attacking me as a person, or making up lies about me. It's just 1347 01:39:39.159 --> 01:39:41.840 I don't want to legitimize such a thing. And I think that's just a 1348 01:39:42.119 --> 01:39:45.239 natural thing to do. But and I understand why, Like you know, 1349 01:39:45.359 --> 01:39:47.359 people like Ubara, they might not they might want to stay away from me 1350 01:39:47.399 --> 01:39:53.039 for the same reason. That's fair enough, right, But you know, 1351 01:39:53.199 --> 01:39:55.640 that's that's just kind of like a principal thing, at least for me. 1352 01:39:55.680 --> 01:39:59.840 So I want to note that before I move on to the five Dollars to 1353 01:40:00.039 --> 01:40:02.560 chat from Max and By Jay has a different style, He has different you 1354 01:40:02.600 --> 01:40:06.119 know, he views these things differently because we're different people in regards to kind 1355 01:40:06.119 --> 01:40:10.319 of like have you look at debate challenges and stuff like that as well? 1356 01:40:10.520 --> 01:40:15.239 So, um, that's something that I will, I guess we'll like to 1357 01:40:15.279 --> 01:40:18.039 note as well. Max the Confessor five dollars super chat um, he has 1358 01:40:18.079 --> 01:40:23.800 been reading Bootius beautiful poems. Any good Orthodox commentaries on him? I don't 1359 01:40:23.840 --> 01:40:28.840 think there are any, Um, I mean I have one of his books. 1360 01:40:28.840 --> 01:40:31.640 I don't know about commentaries. Yeah, I think I think with boti 1361 01:40:31.760 --> 01:40:35.720 Is it's like I mean, isn't he's the one. It will be kind 1362 01:40:35.760 --> 01:40:39.560 of like a commentary of a commentary. But I guess if you're asking kind 1363 01:40:39.600 --> 01:40:45.880 of like the Orthodox take on Bois, I always confuse Boots Saints Bede, 1364 01:40:46.159 --> 01:40:51.960 I always confuse them. But he wrote consolations of philosophy, and so he's 1365 01:40:53.000 --> 01:41:00.239 you know, basically an attempting and sent this between Augustinian theology and other you 1366 01:41:00.279 --> 01:41:04.319 know, Aristotle, other theological or philosophical traditions, and so I mean he 1367 01:41:04.680 --> 01:41:08.800 is I think a saying in the Orthodox Church. But yeah, I think, 1368 01:41:09.000 --> 01:41:15.760 I mean he's I don't know about commentaries. Yeah, uh yeah he 1369 01:41:15.880 --> 01:41:18.279 is. He's he is a saint in the Orthodox Church, right, that 1370 01:41:18.399 --> 01:41:23.239 is true? So yeah, I'm I'm afraid of You're not going to be 1371 01:41:23.239 --> 01:41:26.880 able to help you on that front, uh, Max, But appreciate the 1372 01:41:27.039 --> 01:41:32.760 five dollars super chat um. Let's see what other people are saying. Well, 1373 01:41:32.760 --> 01:41:36.359 I guess I could kind of. I mean, this was I didn't 1374 01:41:36.399 --> 01:41:40.239 I did not expect a lot of people to kind of support So I'm kind 1375 01:41:40.239 --> 01:41:42.560 of like, I'm kind of shocked. But at the end of the day, 1376 01:41:42.600 --> 01:41:46.359 I mean, it's it's it's very cool to see this. One thing 1377 01:41:46.399 --> 01:41:51.119 I kind of wants to ask you, Jay, and and I could answer 1378 01:41:51.119 --> 01:41:54.840 this question before you answer, It's like, what was it saying that made 1379 01:41:54.920 --> 01:41:59.000 you like not a not something in Orthodoxy that made you say, oh, 1380 01:41:59.039 --> 01:42:01.119 I think this is wrong because of a rational reason. But what made you 1381 01:42:01.159 --> 01:42:05.159 like ikey? Because from me, and this might sound really strange because I'm 1382 01:42:05.199 --> 01:42:09.800 like, I'm the icon veneration guy at these these days from the Orthodox camp. 1383 01:42:10.600 --> 01:42:15.800 But icon veneration was kind of strange to me when I first became ortodox. 1384 01:42:15.880 --> 01:42:18.520 I kind of looked at it and it's like, how is this not 1385 01:42:18.640 --> 01:42:21.560 like this kind of this kind of looks suspicious, but I guess I'll do 1386 01:42:21.600 --> 01:42:25.359 it kind of a thing. But like stuff like that, right, like 1387 01:42:25.439 --> 01:42:29.359 not something that's like rational like ration, like you're opposed because of some rational 1388 01:42:29.399 --> 01:42:31.560 reason. But right is something that you that it took some time for you 1389 01:42:31.640 --> 01:42:33.760 to get used to, because I think a lot of people have that, 1390 01:42:33.840 --> 01:42:38.319 and it's very normal because a lot of people are not used to ortodox Christianity. 1391 01:42:42.560 --> 01:42:49.960 Um, you know, my path to Orthodoxy was different, so it 1392 01:42:50.119 --> 01:42:55.960 wasn't It wasn't really like that where I had to adjust to things that were 1393 01:42:55.960 --> 01:43:00.199 really odd. I think because I came from the world of Roman Catholicism, 1394 01:43:00.199 --> 01:43:08.239 it was different. So most things in Orthodoxy weren't that odd to me. 1395 01:43:08.359 --> 01:43:11.800 I'll say two things. So my when I was Protestant, the first time 1396 01:43:11.840 --> 01:43:15.319 I saw a relic, it was weird because in the Protestant world, you're 1397 01:43:15.359 --> 01:43:17.560 not used to that, and you kind of it kind of seems odd to 1398 01:43:17.640 --> 01:43:21.399 you. And the first Roman Calory church that I went to had a relic 1399 01:43:21.439 --> 01:43:26.760 of Saint Jerome, and I remember, you know, I was curious, 1400 01:43:26.800 --> 01:43:29.800 but I was also weirded out the first time I saw it. So that 1401 01:43:29.880 --> 01:43:32.319 was the thing that it will always stick in my mind. And then when 1402 01:43:32.319 --> 01:43:40.720 I became Orthodox, one thing that was unique that stuck out was getting used 1403 01:43:40.760 --> 01:43:46.159 to standing up in the services, and you know Russian Orthodox services, you're 1404 01:43:46.159 --> 01:43:51.039 going to be standing for two or three hours. So that was odd, 1405 01:43:51.079 --> 01:43:56.039 I mean, just because the last time that I'd gone to I mean, I