1 00:00:01,919 --> 00:00:05,559 All right, we're live. Greetings everyone, This is David R. Hunt 2 00:00:05,599 --> 00:00:10,439 today. I have a very great guests with me today. A good friend 3 00:00:10,439 --> 00:00:13,439 of mine. I don't think he needs any introduction in my channel, but 4 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:17,280 Jay Dyer is with me, the soy Master, the soy face Master. 5 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:21,600 Hello, Jay, thank you for thank you for joining me in this stream. 6 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:23,480 And I was basically just thinking, you know, we can kind of 7 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:26,640 just talk about pretty much anything. So if you have people in the live 8 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:30,039 chat, if you have any questions, anything that you want us to talk 9 00:00:30,079 --> 00:00:34,320 about, make sure to write stuff, make sure to share the stream. 10 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:38,399 And before we get into the stream, is there anything you want to kind 11 00:00:38,399 --> 00:00:43,479 of mention before we start. Yeah, thanks for having glad to be back. 12 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:47,240 We haven't had a We had a chat about drama, you know, 13 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:51,240 a couple months ago, so it's nice to be back and chatting about you 14 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:56,679 know, normal dude things. So things coming out. We've got the Orthodox 15 00:00:56,759 --> 00:01:00,240 Italy pilgrimage. If you go to my channel, you'll see there's a a 16 00:01:00,359 --> 00:01:06,120 one minute video up about that. There's links that take you to the website 17 00:01:06,159 --> 00:01:08,439 for my priest. You can reach out to Father Vladimir if anybody's interested. 18 00:01:08,519 --> 00:01:14,400 So it's like a couple of week ten days. I think in November you 19 00:01:14,439 --> 00:01:17,760 can get all the information there if you guys want to go. I recommend 20 00:01:17,799 --> 00:01:19,480 that it's going to be a lot of fun. It's not I mean, 21 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:23,799 it's gonna be high quality, you know, saying in nice places. We're 22 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:29,400 not slumming it. We're gonna be seeing a lot of really good Orthodox sites. 23 00:01:30,519 --> 00:01:33,400 Love it. So why why are you doing Italy? Isn't it Roman 24 00:01:33,439 --> 00:01:38,280 Catholic? Yeah? I know that, But so my priest has a connection 25 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:46,719 to the Florence Florentine Academy of Arts there and they teach the Renaissance style of 26 00:01:47,239 --> 00:01:52,079 art, and he's worked with that school for a long time. Andre Tarkovsky 27 00:01:52,519 --> 00:01:55,239 it teaches there as well. I think he has a connection to that school 28 00:01:55,239 --> 00:01:57,439 too. So he spent a lot of time in Florence, and so he 29 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:00,359 knows a lot of people in Italy. And there's actually, you know, 30 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:06,040 several Orthodox churches and sites in Italy. People won't know that, but in 31 00:02:06,079 --> 00:02:09,879 fact there's a giant Russian Orthodox cathedral there were that will be at But also, 32 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:15,800 I mean Italy has you know, a thousand years of Christianity where it 33 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:20,680 was Orthodox, you know, going back to when Paul writes the Letter to 34 00:02:20,719 --> 00:02:24,360 the Romans. So there's a long history of Orthodox Italy and a lot of 35 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:28,840 those sites that we're going to will be that. Obviously, some of the 36 00:02:28,879 --> 00:02:32,039 sites are now Roman Catholic, but they're still relevant to us as Orthodox because 37 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:38,599 they have, you know, relics of Orthodox saints. So it's going to 38 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:42,319 be a great time. And if anybody's interested, it's getting down now, 39 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:46,599 down to the deadline. So you need to go ahead and sign up if 40 00:02:46,599 --> 00:02:51,680 you do think you want to. If you want to go, yeah, 41 00:02:51,719 --> 00:02:53,759 and you know I might. I might also peer there. Who knows, 42 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:59,759 that's a that's a possibility as well. I also have something to announce this 43 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:05,759 specially fans of Phish Tank, fans of Sam Hyde might know this guest. 44 00:03:06,199 --> 00:03:12,840 I have an interview at a podcast episode scheduled with John from Phish Tank. 45 00:03:13,319 --> 00:03:16,759 I kind of he basically was kind of my favorite character pretty much. I 46 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:21,639 really enjoyed just like looking at the antics that he did and stuff like that. 47 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:25,719 And the show recently ended, right, so we're gonna do the well. 48 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:30,000 We initially we agreed on June eight, but he wanted to reschedule to 49 00:03:30,199 --> 00:03:37,240 June fourteenth. So we're gonna do a so we're gonna have a conversation one 50 00:03:37,319 --> 00:03:42,479 pm Est June fourteenth with John from Phish Tanks. I definitely don't miss out 51 00:03:42,599 --> 00:03:46,960 on that as well. And that's pretty much yeah, that's pretty much what 52 00:03:47,039 --> 00:03:51,360 I had in mind. And thank you too. Sis Pilgrim from the twenty 53 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:57,000 dollars were already kind of starting strong. I was thinking of kind of just 54 00:03:57,039 --> 00:04:00,240 starting this with a with a question that I kind of prepare before the stream. 55 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:02,879 But we've got a ten dollars super chat, and I kind of think 56 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:06,159 actually kind of have to, like, you know, since he super chat, 57 00:04:06,319 --> 00:04:09,919 I think it's it will be good to kind of like start with this 58 00:04:11,319 --> 00:04:15,439 and butch paradise ten dollars, he asked. I often hear that Calvin made 59 00:04:15,439 --> 00:04:19,000 the penal substitution, but Saint John that Damascus Act Exposition book three, chapter 60 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:23,120 twenty seven seems to say the same thing. So I think Jay, you 61 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:27,800 will especially kind of know I have I have a chapter twenty seven, Book 62 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:30,439 three like pulled up, so I can read that part if you want me 63 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:33,519 to. But seems like from from like a very basic perspeadive, seems like 64 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:38,720 kind of like a mistake on the words and confusion of the words and concepts. 65 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:44,800 But you want to get into that, Jay, Yeah, so sometimes 66 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:46,360 the set like you said, yeah, the same words are used, but 67 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:50,720 they don't mean or signify the same thing. So I know that section of 68 00:04:50,759 --> 00:04:56,800 the exposition very well. And he does talk about there being a sense in 69 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:00,839 which the punishment, which is the debts. You could say, you can 70 00:05:00,959 --> 00:05:05,120 use this language, there's no problem with that. But the idea between Calvin's 71 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:10,000 notion of the punishment and what John Damascus calls the punishment is totally different. 72 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:13,920 For example, John Damascus makes it clear that the punishment has nothing to do 73 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,639 with a spiritual death. It's nothing to do with damnation. The sun is 74 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:21,199 not cut off from the Father. It's the severing of the human soul from 75 00:05:21,199 --> 00:05:26,519 the human body. And that's what he undergoes at the cross, and he 76 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:31,560 does that to enter into the Kingdom of Hades. In the soul that he 77 00:05:31,639 --> 00:05:36,079 has, the divine person has the human soul. He enters into that kingdom. 78 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,800 And by the way, I just did a long two hour talk. 79 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:43,920 I was invited to Antiochian Men's event. I did a two hour talk on 80 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:46,000 the descent into Hades, and this very point in this very chapter. So 81 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:48,800 it's still freshened my mind. If anybody wants, you can go to my 82 00:05:48,879 --> 00:05:53,000 rock fan and you can listen to that whole two hour talk we did. 83 00:05:53,519 --> 00:05:59,079 But yeah, so that's totally different than what the notion of the penal substitution 84 00:05:59,199 --> 00:06:02,920 is in John Calvin, because Calvin does have the view that the eternal debt 85 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:09,759 of damnation and spiritual death is something that the son is taking upon himself for 86 00:06:09,879 --> 00:06:15,120 us as a divine person. I don't know that Calvin that really clarifies that 87 00:06:15,199 --> 00:06:18,639 it doesn't really make any sense. But this goes back to Anselm's idea. 88 00:06:18,759 --> 00:06:25,959 So even though Anselm didn't have the full on developed reformed in Lutheran theology of 89 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:30,360 penal substitution, Anselm is the birthplace of this idea for the West, and 90 00:06:30,399 --> 00:06:34,879 it has to do with the infinite debt infinite payment model. So we offended 91 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:40,360 an infinite God with our sin. It needs there needs to be a divine 92 00:06:40,439 --> 00:06:44,199 infinite payment from the son to pay the Father. First of all, that's 93 00:06:44,199 --> 00:06:49,519 not trinitarian. And there's an eleventh century Byzantine Synod that deals with this error 94 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:54,800 that the offering is not from the son to the Father. The son is 95 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:58,240 offering his human nature to the whole triad. That's the only way to have 96 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:02,959 this transactional offering model in the Eucharist, or just go in the liturgy, 97 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:08,639 make any sense, So that alone refutes the reform view of it. But 98 00:07:09,319 --> 00:07:12,279 just to make it really clear, as we've always pointed out, you cannot 99 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:16,680 say that the Sun undergoes any kind of damnation or rejection of the Father because 100 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:20,920 for many reasons, but one would be the Santi Trinitarian right, So the 101 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:27,439 son can't lose the indwelling of the Father or the Holy Spirit. He's a 102 00:07:27,519 --> 00:07:30,720 divine person, and so it would split the Trinity, it would destroy the 103 00:07:30,759 --> 00:07:32,879 whole you know, triad if you did this. So no, it is 104 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:36,240 not John. And if you if you read the rest of book three, 105 00:07:36,519 --> 00:07:42,519 you will notice that when he talks about the descent into Hades, there's nothing 106 00:07:42,519 --> 00:07:46,800 to do with John Calvin. John Calvin does not believe that Jesus as the 107 00:07:46,839 --> 00:07:50,000 divine person to the human soul which has been suffered from the body, that 108 00:07:50,079 --> 00:07:55,399 he descends into a realm of Hades, preaches the Gospel to the dead and 109 00:07:55,439 --> 00:07:58,720 then harrows the hero wing of Hades. John Calvin does not believe that, 110 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:03,040 so totally different. Yeah, And I want to add a quote from Saint 111 00:08:03,079 --> 00:08:05,480 John Damascus, because I remember reading this from book four, So this is 112 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:11,480 from book four, chapter eighteen, and this definitely shows you that Saint John's 113 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:16,000 views very different from the reform. He says, for neither for neither as 114 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:20,279 God nor as man, was he ever forsaken by the Father? Nor did 115 00:08:20,279 --> 00:08:24,639 he become sin or a curse appropriating then or person and ranking himself with us. 116 00:08:24,639 --> 00:08:28,439 He used these words. So the basic idea is that these are terms 117 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:33,559 used for Christ by appropriation. Yes, right, but he did not become 118 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:37,200 curse, He did not become damn. He Saint John explicitly says, very 119 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:41,159 clear says he was never forsaken by the Father. Whereas you know, this 120 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:46,559 idea of the father damning the son is very much in you know, Reformed 121 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:48,480 theology. So I will I will kind of add that as an answer. 122 00:08:48,519 --> 00:08:54,720 It's very clearly shows that this is not a concept or a belief in the 123 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:56,960 early Church fathers. And as you said, it's quite anti trinitarian. I 124 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:01,440 mean, it will also mean that the Sun damns undammed himself as well, 125 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:05,159 which again, is this kind of weird metaphysic behind it doesn't that separates the 126 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:13,240 trinity and ends up having a triteistic view where the father acts against the son 127 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:16,840 as if the son is a foreigner to the father, as if the son 128 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:22,799 is opposed to the father. This is as as you said. The other 129 00:09:22,799 --> 00:09:24,639 options would be to say, oh, well, I guess Jesus was just 130 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:30,759 a human being who was punished in this way, But that would be Aryan 131 00:09:30,919 --> 00:09:37,159 or Nestorian to have a split between between the subjects in Christ. So either 132 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:43,120 way you cut it, it's it's anti trinitarian or it's Christological nonsense. Yeah, 133 00:09:43,159 --> 00:09:48,120 pretty much. So I think that sufficiently answers the question regarding this. 134 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:52,759 And as I said, people in the live chat, you can kind of 135 00:09:52,039 --> 00:09:54,879 if you want us to talk about a specific topic, a specific question, 136 00:09:54,919 --> 00:09:58,399 you can you can drop this. But if you want your question to be 137 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:03,080 definitely answered, and yes it's super chat, will be will guarantee that for 138 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:07,120 sure. A question that I kind of want to start with in this stream, 139 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:11,279 kind of like a more basic question, is well, I kind of 140 00:10:11,399 --> 00:10:13,600 was thinking about maybe we can talk a little bit about just why people should 141 00:10:13,639 --> 00:10:18,519 be Orthodox and also what are the issues that just people in general are facing, 142 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:22,720 specifically men are facing today. So the first question I had in mind 143 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:24,559 that we can kind of talk about because I kind of have my own thoughts 144 00:10:24,919 --> 00:10:28,679 regarding this. But aside from the fact that it is true, because a 145 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:31,799 lot of people, especially when they get into ortodox, they don't really think 146 00:10:31,799 --> 00:10:35,240 this way or any religion. They kind of they don't really think, oh, 147 00:10:35,279 --> 00:10:37,039 it's true. They think of it as like, oh, how useful 148 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:41,120 it is or how based it is. Right, aside from the fact that 149 00:10:41,159 --> 00:10:48,000 it is true, why should one become orthodox? And what does it do 150 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:52,240 to help you with the problems and the issues that we face in the world, 151 00:10:52,399 --> 00:10:58,360 Like what what is your take on this? Yeah, I think for 152 00:10:58,519 --> 00:11:03,240 guys like us, we're mainly concerned with, you know, this or that 153 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:05,440 issue. Is it true? Is it false? You know? If you 154 00:11:05,519 --> 00:11:07,960 if you're really interested in what's true, then these kinds of things will definitely 155 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,480 resonate with you. But there's all these other things that go along with it, 156 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:15,639 right, I mean, it's not just a matter of objective truth and 157 00:11:15,759 --> 00:11:20,320 a propositional knowledge. It's a question of really a renovation of your whole life. 158 00:11:20,399 --> 00:11:28,879 And so in my experience, is something that is constantly sort of invading 159 00:11:28,879 --> 00:11:33,600 and hammering at me when I am always wanting to go off in my own 160 00:11:33,639 --> 00:11:37,360 direction and be kind of you know, sinful, be self absorbed, to 161 00:11:37,399 --> 00:11:41,600 be you know, concerned with what I want. Like something will happen to 162 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:46,000 kind of constantly sort of break you out of that and bring you back to 163 00:11:46,159 --> 00:11:50,919 confession, bring you back to communion. And a lot of that's providence. 164 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:54,000 A lot of it is you know, spiritual warfare. All that stuff's going 165 00:11:54,039 --> 00:11:58,360 on. So I think that it's what am I trying to say, it's 166 00:11:58,399 --> 00:12:05,720 like the true version of a twelve step self improvement program. Like it's not 167 00:12:05,879 --> 00:12:09,279 I mean, I'm not trying to reduce it to the it's not just the 168 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:13,360 moral thing that makes you a better person or whatever. But like all the 169 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:16,080 red pill dudes, and when I see you know, the manosphere and the 170 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:20,159 Tate sphere and the you know, the people that hate them, and it's 171 00:12:20,159 --> 00:12:22,759 like all the things that these people are grasping for that like they'll get a 172 00:12:22,759 --> 00:12:26,159 little piece of the truth and then it's like that's it, right. So 173 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:30,919 I think that really what we have is is that the totality picture of what 174 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:35,000 all of these different spheres are looking for and grasping for. We have that, 175 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:39,320 and so why is it? Why would I be orthodox? Because I 176 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:48,879 mean beyond it being true, Like I can't see any other narrative or mythos 177 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:54,799 or story that actually makes sense of the past, my life, the future, 178 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:58,320 your life, right, what's going on in the world, your politics, 179 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,759 Like it really has the big picture explanation for everything. Um, it's 180 00:13:01,799 --> 00:13:09,320 a like I said, it's going to force you to constantly work to improve 181 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:16,000 yourself in the most literal sense of the word. Um, it forces you 182 00:13:16,039 --> 00:13:22,879 to reorganize your relationships, like how you deal with people. I don't mean 183 00:13:22,919 --> 00:13:26,759 in the sense of like are you mean or are you nice? That's not 184 00:13:26,759 --> 00:13:28,440 what I'm talking about. But I'm talking about dealing with people in the in 185 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:33,559 like in a just way. Are you being just to people? Are you 186 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:37,120 being loving in the true sense? Are you being humble in the true sense? 187 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:41,600 Because I think you know you and I have a conception of what it 188 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:46,240 is to be humble, what it is to be fair to people that's very 189 00:13:46,279 --> 00:13:48,240 different than a lot of other people. And I think that they don't. 190 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:54,879 They see us as mean or as very matter of fact or whatever. But 191 00:13:54,399 --> 00:13:58,639 for us like, that's that's how we should treat people, right, we 192 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:05,399 should treat people in a way that's loving but firm. Right. So I 193 00:14:05,399 --> 00:14:09,919 think that a lot of people have different, just way off conceptions about how 194 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:15,000 we ought to operate with people, how we should treat people. And Orthodox 195 00:14:15,039 --> 00:14:18,360 he really does reirient you to treat people in a different way. But that 196 00:14:18,399 --> 00:14:22,279 doesn't mean that, oh that just you're not nice, like you're going to 197 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:24,759 be super nice. Now you're gonna be super this and you're gonna talk like 198 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:28,519 this to people. That's that's not what humility is. That's not what spirituality 199 00:14:28,639 --> 00:14:35,120 is. That's a false affectation that people have to give the appearance of being 200 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:39,120 pious and humble, piety signaling and all this kind of stuff. And you 201 00:14:39,159 --> 00:14:41,879 know, if you look in scripture, there's one text that I always come 202 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:45,080 to mind when I think about this. I think it's in Luke. It's 203 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:50,960 where Jesus says that the Pharisees they judge people on these kind of externals, 204 00:14:52,879 --> 00:14:58,600 and he says that the things that are highly esteemed amongst men, he says, 205 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:01,519 are abominable to God. So what are the things that are highly esteemed 206 00:15:01,519 --> 00:15:05,480 amongst men going along, to getting along, to get along, being nice, 207 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:11,200 right, this kind of stuff, And that's what Jesus says is you 208 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:16,639 know, God doesn't care for that. So I think what I'm getting at 209 00:15:16,759 --> 00:15:20,080 is that in the long run, orthodoxy is it's going to constantly force you 210 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:26,159 to reorient yourself and everything in your life, Like the way that you relate 211 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:28,279 to people, the way you relate to God, the way that you look 212 00:15:28,279 --> 00:15:31,399 at the world, your world or your paradigm, how you are trying to 213 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:37,759 better yourself. All those things come into play. And my life has definitely 214 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:41,240 been better. I mean, the struggles and the problems don't go away. 215 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:45,279 You get different problems. And you know, you and I did a stream 216 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:48,559 a long time ago that a lot of people really could have benefited from if 217 00:15:48,559 --> 00:15:50,480 they had paid attention to it. We were talking about traps along the way, 218 00:15:50,919 --> 00:15:54,720 because when you become Orthodox, it's not like, oh, Okay, 219 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:58,879 I'm Orthodox and everything's good. Now. There's a whole new set of traps 220 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:04,159 and temptations that you have that a lot of us have seen, a lot 221 00:16:04,159 --> 00:16:07,919 of us have seen people go down. You know, Oh I'm gonna be 222 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:11,960 this radical, true Orthodox person. Oh I'm gonna go into Roman edies to 223 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:17,080 the extreme. Well I'm into David Billy Harden universalism or I'm into whatever else. 224 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:23,200 Right, there's all these different like pathways that will lead you off of 225 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:26,759 the correct path, and so many people get caught up in that, even 226 00:16:26,799 --> 00:16:30,600 when you warn them about it like that, they go down these roads anyway, 227 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:34,919 that's not German really to your question, Um, I feel like I'm 228 00:16:36,039 --> 00:16:38,360 rambling, but you know that that's that's the thoughts I have on the spot, 229 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,759 like what is it? Why? Why would I do it? Well, 230 00:16:41,799 --> 00:16:47,080 beyond it being true, it's it's really like the healing of your your 231 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:51,399 whole being ultimately, but it's not something that happens right away. You know, 232 00:16:51,519 --> 00:16:53,279 somebody was saying to me the other day, you were mean in a 233 00:16:53,399 --> 00:16:59,360 comment to somebody on you on Twitter. So orthodox you hasn't changed you at 234 00:16:59,399 --> 00:17:03,000 all in four or five or six years. And I'm like, so, 235 00:17:03,639 --> 00:17:06,440 so if I make one mistake in a Twitter, which by the way, 236 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:07,799 I don't even think what I said was that mean, But let's say I 237 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:14,400 was being mean on a tweet, does that invalidate all of like, you 238 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,799 know what I mean, all of one's spiritual journey for five or six years. 239 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:21,160 That's crazy. Yeah, you're going to be battling the passions your whole 240 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:23,480 life. I mean there's monastics who said that, you know, they were 241 00:17:23,799 --> 00:17:29,519 still struggling with lust to their death. Been m Yeah. A couple of 242 00:17:29,519 --> 00:17:34,200 things I'd also like to add in regards to this is that for the last 243 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:38,319 couple like veeks, maybe even months, I've kind of been reading some like 244 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:42,599 texts and articles on virtuetix, and I think it's kind of is relevant on 245 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,759 this topic because a lot of people think when it comes to ethics and morality 246 00:17:45,799 --> 00:17:48,680 and being a good person, they think, if you do X y Z 247 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:57,359 all actions, Oh can you hear me? Oh kay? Yeah, can 248 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:06,039 you meet your mike because I can hear it from the all right, So 249 00:18:06,039 --> 00:18:10,359 I was got a call from an important thing and then this microphone has a 250 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:12,440 short in it. Go ahead, Sorry, okay, okay, Yeah. 251 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,680 I was just saying that it's a lot of people think that doing good things 252 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:19,839 is like a checklist X y Z checklist and all of that, But it's 253 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:25,400 about the character and disposition that you're that the things that you do reflects and 254 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:29,440 harmonizes fit. Right, So they think a lot of people just assume that 255 00:18:29,519 --> 00:18:33,440 one action you do kind of just defines your whole character, right, whereas 256 00:18:33,559 --> 00:18:36,960 really it's your character that defines your actions in the first place. It's the 257 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:41,759 other way around. And with Orthodoxy, it is that character, that disposition. 258 00:18:41,319 --> 00:18:47,519 You're trying to restore that disposition to the virtues that God himself naturally has 259 00:18:47,559 --> 00:18:49,319 that are communicated to you. And that's what repentance is. And this is 260 00:18:49,319 --> 00:18:52,759 why people will be making mistakes, but they will also be trying to attain 261 00:18:52,799 --> 00:18:59,000 the likeness of God through asceticism to uh, you know, fighting against the 262 00:18:59,039 --> 00:19:03,559 passions and so and so forth. So there's this very wrong conception that even 263 00:19:03,559 --> 00:19:06,960 a lot of ortodox people have regarding this. Another thing that I'd like to 264 00:19:07,079 --> 00:19:10,200 know is that when it comes to what is a true religion what is not, 265 00:19:10,519 --> 00:19:12,240 A lot of people look at it by oh, how base it is. 266 00:19:12,279 --> 00:19:15,759 And in that sense, you know, Orthodoxy is good on that front. 267 00:19:15,319 --> 00:19:19,640 But the issue is a lot of people they try to they try to 268 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:22,599 look at what the true religion is by looking at like the evil and the 269 00:19:22,599 --> 00:19:26,480 demonic stuff in this world, and then they say to themselves, Okay, 270 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:30,319 which religion combats against this stuff the best? That's not the most correct way 271 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:33,680 to look at it. You'd rather want to look at it in this way. 272 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:34,759 You want to look at it in the way. Okay, what religion 273 00:19:34,799 --> 00:19:38,680 allows me to engage me to combat against it in the best possible way. 274 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:41,240 Because a lot of people, for example, they look at the evil things 275 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:45,599 in the world, and then they become convinced that there's there's a there's a 276 00:19:45,599 --> 00:19:51,400 god like Entertained for example, Right, but then he becomes Muslim because in 277 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:56,319 his opinion, the most sensible religion when it comes to morality and stuff like 278 00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:00,279 that is isla. Well, one might, for example, a lot of 279 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,720 whatever choice he makes, right, whatever choice anyone makes, they might be 280 00:20:03,799 --> 00:20:07,759 deceived by these demonic beings that they're trying to get away from. Right, 281 00:20:07,759 --> 00:20:11,039 I mean, demonic stuff isn't just like in the movies where like you get 282 00:20:11,079 --> 00:20:14,920 possessed or you know, even just jumps into your face and scares you and 283 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:18,559 does a little cool jump scared. That's not really, that's not really how 284 00:20:18,599 --> 00:20:22,640 it works. It's deception, right, And so people can be deceived if 285 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:26,720 they act on their own accord instead of protecting themselves against these influences. And 286 00:20:26,759 --> 00:20:30,599 so this I think is something that a lot of people miss out on then 287 00:20:30,759 --> 00:20:33,440 comes to looking at, Okay, what's the true fate? Why should I 288 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,319 be in this revision? And so I will say, and I will definitely 289 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:40,000 agree with you, and I will kind of add that the reason why one 290 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:44,799 should be Orthodox is because Orthodox he really gears you against the demonic forces, 291 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,960 demonic delusions, and aside from being the truth, it is the one religion 292 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,519 that allows you to do this and allows you to develop and even claims to 293 00:20:52,559 --> 00:20:57,839 develop you into having the same virtues and character that God himself has, which 294 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:02,000 is very radical to to say, but this is just an affirmation of man 295 00:21:02,039 --> 00:21:03,680 being made not only in the image but also in the likeness of God, 296 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:08,400 and at the end of the life of man is to be deified by the 297 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:14,079 grace of God. Right, so that Orthodox is really even the only religion 298 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:17,839 that even claims to do something like this. And this is how I think 299 00:21:17,839 --> 00:21:22,920 people should kind of look at it what it can really do for them in 300 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,039 the in the sense that it really matters, not in the sense of, 301 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:26,039 oh, this religion is going to make me a lot of money. Well, 302 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:30,559 this religion is going to really develop your soul in the property because your 303 00:21:30,759 --> 00:21:33,920 body is going to die your earthly you know, the money you have on 304 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,880 the earth is going to go away, but your soul is going to you 305 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:40,640 know, still going to continue living. And the kind of the treasures that 306 00:21:40,799 --> 00:21:42,480 you have in your soul, that's what's going to matter for it turn too, 307 00:21:44,279 --> 00:21:48,920 really and that's going to define the kind of character you have both bodily 308 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:52,680 and spiritually. Is kind of how I will how I will see this. 309 00:21:53,279 --> 00:21:56,880 Yeah, I think the you know, Islam is a good example of a 310 00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:00,400 situation where I was thinking about this the other day, Like, it doesn't 311 00:22:02,279 --> 00:22:06,720 it doesn't heal you in any way internally. There's no notion of like the 312 00:22:06,839 --> 00:22:12,599 interior man being cleansed and the interior man, you know, ridding himself of 313 00:22:12,759 --> 00:22:18,400 vice and attaining virtues. But you know, one thing that Jesus is always 314 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,759 concerned with, like I was saying in that text and loop, is the 315 00:22:21,799 --> 00:22:26,319 internal state. Like you can fool everybody with doing a bunch of externals. 316 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:30,480 Right. You can externally appear to be pious, and you can externally tweet 317 00:22:30,519 --> 00:22:33,920 about your prayers and how much you pray, and you can tweet your public 318 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:36,519 prayers all day long. And even though Jesus says, don't do this. 319 00:22:36,599 --> 00:22:41,000 He says, to go and pray in your inner room or in your heart, 320 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:47,119 right in your news. Then how how is that religion going to do 321 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:52,240 anything other than make me into some kind of weird hypocrite right where I'm just 322 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:57,000 doing my religious actions for worldly status because I think it'll make me cooler, 323 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:02,240 get me, you know, four wives. Whatever Islam thinks right that Allah 324 00:23:02,279 --> 00:23:03,599 will bless me and I'll have a lot of money, or I don't know 325 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:07,119 what, I'm a shake with a bunch of oil platforms. I don't know. 326 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:14,400 But none of that really changes or effects or helps you in an interior 327 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:17,960 way. So it's not that those things are wrong, right, there's nothing 328 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,519 wrong with exterior blessings or the world or anything like that. That would be 329 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:25,440 nastic than going in a different direction. And a lot of Protestants get into 330 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:29,240 this really superpietistic mode where it's all about you know, they're just sitting around 331 00:23:29,279 --> 00:23:33,680 obsessing all day along about their inner devotion and you know, their inner state. 332 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,240 And to me, that's also kind of a weird opposite extreme. So 333 00:23:37,279 --> 00:23:45,319 I think that the classical practice of Orthodoxy gives you a notion of the body 334 00:23:45,519 --> 00:23:48,599 is good but it has a place in a hierarchy. The soul is more 335 00:23:48,599 --> 00:23:52,359 important than the body, and the soul should steer the body. But that 336 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:56,559 doesn't make the body bad, right, But in Islam, there's not really 337 00:23:56,599 --> 00:24:00,039 any notion of this healing of the interior man and it of the vices and 338 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:04,200 attaining the virtues. So it's just odd to me that you have the whole 339 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,839 religion based around this this idea, and to me it would just it just 340 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:14,400 kind of it's sort of like the you know, other quote monotheistic religions. 341 00:24:15,319 --> 00:24:22,000 They just create people who are externally doing things and they never internally heal. 342 00:24:23,319 --> 00:24:26,920 Yeah, I definitely agree with that. If you got a new super check 343 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:32,440 question by Joshua is Sonza five dollars think you, josh He asked, I 344 00:24:32,519 --> 00:24:34,720 recently heard of oc A pre say the current cannon was not affirmed by Nicki 345 00:24:34,759 --> 00:24:38,839 Michical Council and certain Russian Orthodox churches have a different cannon. Is this true? 346 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,559 I think that you are definitely the expert on church of cannons on that 347 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:45,640 front, but it was them on the canon of scripture, as you talking 348 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:51,480 about scripture. Canon of Scripture, I definitely, yeah, I mean there's 349 00:24:52,319 --> 00:24:55,839 in the Orthodox view, there's a little more flexibility on this. So like 350 00:24:56,119 --> 00:25:00,000 the some of the Russian Bibles have i think one of the extra books of 351 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:04,519 Esdras, so like they have like third Asras or something. So, but 352 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,839 it's not that big of a deal because I mean the Orthodox Church that doesn't 353 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,519 happen, don't have a Protestant view of the canon, where like there has 354 00:25:11,559 --> 00:25:15,079 to be this one statement of a canon from a list of books from the 355 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:19,359 council, and then everything else, everything you know, hinges on that. 356 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:23,160 Because for one, if you think about it, if the cannon is somewhat 357 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:29,759 flexible for the first six centuries, and then then obviously we're we believe that 358 00:25:29,839 --> 00:25:33,440 people can be you know, saved even if they have you know, one 359 00:25:33,559 --> 00:25:37,480 extraitutor canonical book, or they don't even believe the durecanonical books. It's not 360 00:25:37,799 --> 00:25:40,440 you know, Saint Jerome didn't think they were canonical, but he's still a 361 00:25:40,519 --> 00:25:44,640 saint. So I'm not saying that today you're free to do whatever you want 362 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:48,799 with the canon. But if the Russian Orthodox Church, if Russian Bibles have 363 00:25:48,839 --> 00:25:52,480 an extra Duto canonical text, I don't see why that that's any any any 364 00:25:52,519 --> 00:25:56,920 different. So but beyond that, I'm not sure exactly what he means by 365 00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:03,720 that the current canon is not the current cannon is affirmed by North by the 366 00:26:03,799 --> 00:26:07,839 echemenical councils. So that's not true. It's the sixth Council. I think 367 00:26:07,839 --> 00:26:11,480 it's the Trollo Council lists and then it's appended to the sixth Council and then 368 00:26:11,559 --> 00:26:15,000 restated in the seventh. So there is a list of canon that the Orthodox 369 00:26:15,079 --> 00:26:21,200 Church accepts. But if there's some tradition, you know where the Russians, 370 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:23,680 for example, have this extra Book of Estros, it's not that big of 371 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:27,880 a deal. Yeah, And I will also well, one thing I will 372 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,960 kind of add is that at the end of the day, the kind of 373 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:36,799 the doctrine that is manifested and exponses it is to the Church, because the 374 00:26:36,839 --> 00:26:40,039 Church is the pilled in ground of truth. So this this explains the distinction 375 00:26:40,759 --> 00:26:45,920 in the understanding that we have from the various different other Protestant sex on the 376 00:26:47,039 --> 00:26:51,920 cannon and h right now, just another five dollars, super Church nates tender 377 00:26:52,079 --> 00:26:57,119 asks Christ has ascended, truly He has ascended? Are there dogmatic prohibitions on 378 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,680 icons of the Father? The Moscow Sennot of sixteen sixty six just is this 379 00:27:00,839 --> 00:27:04,599 but some stay was valid invalid. The main argument I will kind of say 380 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,400 is that, well, sat John Damascus says, we will sin if you 381 00:27:07,519 --> 00:27:14,440 made depictions of the Father in his person. The Moscow Synad does address this, 382 00:27:14,599 --> 00:27:19,519 but at the same time believe that synod also was against the Old Right 383 00:27:19,599 --> 00:27:22,519 like completely, and we can kind of see that's not the case because we 384 00:27:22,559 --> 00:27:26,480 have canonical old Right. But how will you answer this question? I have 385 00:27:26,559 --> 00:27:30,759 I have a stream on this with Snick, But yeah, I think so 386 00:27:30,799 --> 00:27:36,039 it's true that the Moscow Synod is not an acumenical Council, but the theology 387 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:42,559 that it exposits in its doctrines of the icons is correct because it just reflects 388 00:27:42,559 --> 00:27:45,839 what's in the Seventh Documenical Council. And the book to read on this is 389 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:51,519 the Ospensky Losky Book, Volume two. There's multiple chapters in that that are 390 00:27:51,559 --> 00:27:55,880 really good. So yeah, this question gets asked a lot, and I 391 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,480 think I can shed some light on this to help out. So basically, 392 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:06,519 the teaching of the Seventh Council, reflecting what John Damascus says, is that 393 00:28:06,559 --> 00:28:10,680 you cannot make images of the hypostasis of the Father. So that's correct, 394 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:12,519 we don't do that. We can't do that because Jesus says no man has 395 00:28:12,559 --> 00:28:17,160 seen the Father at any time, so we can't do that. So, 396 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:21,519 in other words, this is very important against Roman Catholic theology because a lot 397 00:28:21,559 --> 00:28:26,480 of Roman Catholic icons, especially ones that were intended to teach the philioque by 398 00:28:26,559 --> 00:28:30,400 they were promoted by Jesuits and they were pushed into Orthodox lands. This is 399 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,799 actually part of the reason the Moscow icon sent had happened, is that Jesuits 400 00:28:33,839 --> 00:28:38,720 were pushing these weird icons of like old man the Father and then Jesus and 401 00:28:38,759 --> 00:28:42,039 then the Holy Spirit, like being sent by both of them. Right, 402 00:28:44,079 --> 00:28:48,480 Well, first of all, the Father didn't become incarnate, and so it 403 00:28:48,519 --> 00:28:52,160 doesn't make any sense to picture him as an old man because he's not incarnate, 404 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,319 And to picture him as an old man would be to suggest that he 405 00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:00,880 was incarnate, but he wasn't. So nobody sees the Father at any time. 406 00:29:00,039 --> 00:29:04,000 The only legitimate icon of the Father is the Son, and Jesus says 407 00:29:04,039 --> 00:29:07,759 that anyone who seeing me as seeing the Father Hebrew says, he is the 408 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:12,079 icon of the Father. So how does this make sense. Well, the 409 00:29:12,119 --> 00:29:17,160 only legitimate portrayal that we can do of the Father is not just the Son, 410 00:29:17,319 --> 00:29:21,799 but the energetic manifestations that are proper either to the Father or to the 411 00:29:21,799 --> 00:29:25,680 Holy Spirit. Because the Moscow Icon Sentoate says the exact same thing about the 412 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:30,200 Holy Spirit as it says about the Father. The hypostasis of the Holy Spirit 413 00:29:30,359 --> 00:29:33,920 is never incarnate. But what we do see in scripture are the energetic manifestations 414 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:38,119 proper to the Spirit, namely tongues of fire and the presence as a dove. 415 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,599 So sometimes you'll notice that we could speak of the voice that appears at 416 00:29:42,599 --> 00:29:45,640 the baptism of Christ, or that they hear the voice of the Father, 417 00:29:47,079 --> 00:29:52,000 because that's an energetic manifestation proper to the Father. And so we can talk 418 00:29:52,039 --> 00:29:55,119 about the voice, we can talk about the dove, we can talk about 419 00:29:55,119 --> 00:30:00,480 the tongues of fire, but none of those are the representation of the person 420 00:30:00,559 --> 00:30:03,720 of the Father or the Holy Spirit. The only person that can be represented 421 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:08,640 is the Son because he became incarnate. So the icons of the Son, 422 00:30:08,759 --> 00:30:12,920 according to Saint Theodor the Studite and the Seventh Council, they do pick out 423 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:19,799 the hypostasis of the Son, but the Ancient of Days is a unique case 424 00:30:19,839 --> 00:30:23,519 too, where it's not the it is the person of the father. The 425 00:30:23,599 --> 00:30:27,799 father will notice, it's the per ass the son. So that's why we 426 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:33,680 can do the representation of the person of the Father through the son. In 427 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,880 the Ancient of Days, it's not it's not an old man, it's a 428 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:41,480 Christ's image that we see in Ezekiel and in Revelation one, right, Christ 429 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:45,880 appears to John and John doesn't really recognize him because it says, you know, 430 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,640 he was like a he has this angelic look where he has white hair 431 00:30:48,759 --> 00:30:55,240 and you know, he looks like this kind of like the way Ezekiel describes 432 00:30:55,319 --> 00:30:57,640 the one like a son a band that's writing the chariot. That's Christ in 433 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:06,480 his full glory and divinity being being manifested. And so it's okay to portray 434 00:31:06,599 --> 00:31:10,319 Christ in that way in the Ancient of Days as the image of the Father. 435 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:15,319 So there's some people have pointed out that sometimes icons can portray the idea 436 00:31:15,359 --> 00:31:18,519 of a thing and not the person itself. And so that's another way that 437 00:31:18,519 --> 00:31:19,880 we can speak of, like, for example, the words of Scripture. 438 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:25,880 Fah er, right, that's not an incur that's not an image of the 439 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:30,160 person. It's just a word that depicts or picks out the idea of the 440 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:36,599 father, and that's very important to our iconographic theology. So I think the 441 00:31:36,599 --> 00:31:42,119 theological reasoning of the Moscow icons Ino is absolutely correct. And when you look 442 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:47,880 at that book by Lasky Alspensky, you you'll see why they did this council 443 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:53,559 because in that chapter there's a whole bunch of heterodox icons that they give examples 444 00:31:53,599 --> 00:31:57,720 of. There's like five of them, and they were getting really popular in 445 00:31:59,279 --> 00:32:04,680 Orthodox and ends at the prompting of Jesuits. Jesuits knew what they were doing 446 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:09,160 when they were trying to get Orthodox lands to accept the Philioque by these ridiculous 447 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:14,880 just they're just creepy, weird icons and and you can tell they're heterodox icons 448 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:19,960 because they don't make any sense. It's like an old man holding Jesus holding 449 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:25,160 the Holy Spirit. It's like, that's that's not the Trinity. Yeah. 450 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:30,079 I think the point about ancient of these is especially important because I think one 451 00:32:30,119 --> 00:32:35,680 mistake that people do is that they kind of confuse the symbolic manifestation that icons 452 00:32:35,759 --> 00:32:39,160 depict and the person that is being depicted in the icons well, and the 453 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:43,079 point is very important because this relates to the sacred heart stuff as well, 454 00:32:43,359 --> 00:32:47,079 right there, ven Weed, you know there The reason why, right, 455 00:32:47,119 --> 00:32:51,759 the reason why Christ can be depicted is because he's circumscribed in this humanity. 456 00:32:52,119 --> 00:32:54,880 But what is being depicted is not a generic human nature with a couple of 457 00:32:54,920 --> 00:33:00,279 accidental properties added on top of it. It is the person Jesus Christ. 458 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:01,880 Right. In the same wave, when we depict, for example, Saint 459 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:07,039 Paul, it doesn't have to necessarily look like Saint Paul has to pick out 460 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,279 hypostatic properties of Saint Paul, for example, that he's the author of the 461 00:33:09,319 --> 00:33:13,519 fourteen Epistles, right, and so there will be some icons that will have 462 00:33:13,559 --> 00:33:15,920 like fourteen Epistles that Saint Paul is holding to point out that you know, 463 00:33:16,039 --> 00:33:20,920 this is indeed Saint Paul, and in things of this nature. And so 464 00:33:21,039 --> 00:33:23,920 it depends on the distinction between nature and person also energies, right, and 465 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:29,920 so the Ancient of days and the Father is speaking, the Holy Spirit descending 466 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,839 as a dove, the tongues of fire. All of these will be examples 467 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:39,200 of the manifestation of God in the proper mode, in accordance with the person 468 00:33:39,279 --> 00:33:44,880 that is being manifested within the energies right, So with the Holy Spirit, 469 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:49,359 right, he is being manifested in the form of a dove right in baptism, 470 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:54,680 to signify that the Holy Spirit descends to deify the baptismal waters, that 471 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:59,559 we will be part of right as we die in Christ. So I think 472 00:33:59,599 --> 00:34:01,200 again, as he pointed out, I think a lot of people kind of 473 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:06,160 confuse these categories. I would be very interested though, to see I don't 474 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:07,559 think it will be possible in this treae, but I it will be pretty 475 00:34:07,559 --> 00:34:10,800 interesting to see the examples of the heretical icons. I'm actually like to grab 476 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:14,719 it because there's a couple that are really illustrative the books right over there. 477 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,039 But yeah, to make your point, right, So if you look at 478 00:34:17,119 --> 00:34:22,480 Saint Theodore's book on the Holy Icons, you know when he when he argues 479 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:24,920 that theology that gets accepted at the Seventh Council, he points out what you 480 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:30,920 said, which is that the uncircumscribable right would be, for example, the 481 00:34:30,159 --> 00:34:36,079 divine essence right, the mind essence is uncircumscribable. He also says the Father 482 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:42,360 is uncircumscribable. But what happened in the in the and ultimately in themselves. 483 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:46,280 The persons would be circumscribable as well, except that the Sun willed to become 484 00:34:46,519 --> 00:34:52,119 circumscribable, and he willed to do that via taking on human nature. So 485 00:34:52,159 --> 00:34:57,639 the divine person of the Sun assumes a circumscribable nature which is unique to him, 486 00:34:57,679 --> 00:35:00,880 which has its own unique idiomata, which is, you know, Jesus 487 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:02,920 had this kind of a nose, and he had this kind of a beard, 488 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,760 and you know, and you look, when you look at Orthodox iconography, 489 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:08,920 he typically kind of looks the same. And I tend to think that 490 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:15,199 that's because Orthodox iconography really is depicting what Jesus look like, and that we 491 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:20,400 have maintained that tradition going back to the early days. So my view, 492 00:35:21,079 --> 00:35:24,599 as I understand what the icon Council is saying, is that they really are 493 00:35:24,679 --> 00:35:32,159 balancing the Seventh Council. They're really balancing out Trinitarian and Christological theology with iconography. 494 00:35:32,199 --> 00:35:36,679 And as you pointed out, it rests on the essence energy distinction. 495 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:38,880 I mean, it rests on other things too, like there's things between between 496 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:42,639 nature and person. But when you read Saint Theodore's TRiDaS, it's like it's 497 00:35:42,639 --> 00:35:45,000 all the stuff that you and I are always talking about. It's the stinction 498 00:35:45,039 --> 00:35:47,559 between nature and person. It's the essencenergy distinction. It's God has one will 499 00:35:47,599 --> 00:35:50,880 because he has one nature. And say, all of that is in that 500 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:54,880 book. It's also in John Damascus Is on the Divine Images too, except 501 00:35:54,960 --> 00:36:00,559 that John Damascus is is he's more interested in type prototype relations and it's a 502 00:36:00,559 --> 00:36:04,639 little more philosophical, whereas Saint Theodore's book is more like, well, here's 503 00:36:04,639 --> 00:36:08,360 our tradition, here's the crystological theology, here's the trinitarian theology. Uh, 504 00:36:08,559 --> 00:36:15,119 this is what it means to say that the human nature is circumscribable. But 505 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:21,760 in a sense you could say that energetic manifestations are also in a sense circumscribable, 506 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:24,880 because energetic manifestation is just what we're talking about when we talk about these 507 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:30,800 theophan needs. Right, that theophanies are the energetic manifestations of the person of 508 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:32,480 the son in the Old Testament, right, the Angel of the Lord is 509 00:36:34,039 --> 00:36:39,760 present in a preincarnate, energetic way such that it can be in a sense 510 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:44,679 circumscribed. And so you know, we see we think of the cloud and 511 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,880 the sea, the cloud and the pillar, the pillar and the cloud of 512 00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:52,920 the fire. We think of you know, the glory cloud that comes down 513 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:59,679 in the temple. I mean, these are theophanic energetic manifestations, and they're 514 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:04,320 not the essence of God. They're not the divine person, it's himself, 515 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:07,360 but they're manifestations of the vine person. Right now, I'm some of the 516 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,440 cloud in the case of the Angel, the Lord, that is the second 517 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:15,960 Person himself present in an energetic way. So again, remember that that's none 518 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:22,559 of that stuff is divorced from the iconographic theology. That's that's being argued at 519 00:37:22,599 --> 00:37:28,320 the Seventh Council and at the Moscow icon Sentods and when we understand the essencenery 520 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:30,039 distinction and all that. Right, just think of this basic point everybody always 521 00:37:30,039 --> 00:37:35,599 makes about like in Roman Catholic imagery, the halo is above the head, 522 00:37:36,199 --> 00:37:43,199 right, it's not touching the head because that's the supernatural, beatific vision grace 523 00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:46,280 of the next life, right, because in this life you just get a 524 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:51,559 supernatural created grace. In the Roman Catholic system, in the Orthodox view, 525 00:37:51,639 --> 00:37:55,159 the icon is behind the head because they're actually participating in the uncreated energies. 526 00:37:55,199 --> 00:38:01,280 That's the whole point of the halo. It's not above the heads completely ridiculous. 527 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:06,559 Right, So let me show you a couple of these heterodox icons that 528 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,880 the Moscow Sonata was trying to come back. Yeah. While you do that, 529 00:38:10,079 --> 00:38:15,840 I'll just feat some of the other super chats as well. Rachel Wilson, 530 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:17,599 thank you for the five dollars super chat. Thank you both for these 531 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:22,440 valuable videos that help people understand propertyology, or for both your videos to people 532 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,039 all the time. Yeah, I see that. I appreciate it, Rachel, 533 00:38:25,079 --> 00:38:29,800 thank you for the support. Frankie D ten dollars super chat. Jay, 534 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:31,639 my apologies for not being able to send super chats for a while. 535 00:38:31,679 --> 00:38:35,440 I might have to set up stream labs on desktop to get it to work, 536 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:37,840 because on mobile mobile it has really been a pain. God bless well 537 00:38:39,159 --> 00:38:45,880 that, um is you want to see one? Yeah, sure, I 538 00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,800 appreciate that. Frankie D. Yeah, I don't know. I never tried 539 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:52,840 stream labs on mobile. It seems to work pretty good for me though, 540 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:57,639 um on the computer. See. So here's this one as famous. It's 541 00:38:57,639 --> 00:39:02,360 called the paternity and and uh, this is an icon that was being pushed 542 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:07,679 in Orthodox lands and you can I mean, I think if you're Orthodox you'll 543 00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:12,000 immediately see the problem with this icon and you can look these up. I 544 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,920 mean they're pretty famous. This was called the Paternity. Yeah, and this 545 00:39:15,079 --> 00:39:21,159 is the problem because number one, uh, the that's a baby Jesus. 546 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:28,079 Okay, Now the Father shouldn't be holding a baby Jesus, right, I 547 00:39:28,119 --> 00:39:31,480 mean it's number one. It's like didd was was baby Jesus? Uh? 548 00:39:31,559 --> 00:39:36,119 Did he incarnate from the Father? No, he's from the Virgin Mary, 549 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:39,519 right, So that's weird first of all. Secondly, again, the person 550 00:39:39,519 --> 00:39:44,280 of the Father is not an old man. He's not incarnate, right. 551 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:51,360 And in the Ancient of Day's icon, you'll you'll recall that it's not the 552 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:55,119 the It is depicting the idea of the Father, but it's not an old 553 00:39:55,159 --> 00:40:00,400 man. It's Christ. The Ancient of Days is Christ. Because Christ is 554 00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:02,320 the image of the Father. That's very important. Okay. So then the 555 00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:07,440 other thing that this icon has, which is problematic obviously is the philioque. 556 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:13,840 Right. The Father is sending the Holy Spirit together with the Son, and 557 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:20,320 so it's intended to convey the double hyposthetic procession. So that's one icon that 558 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:23,400 you can see is obviously a problem. And remember an orthodox theology, it's 559 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:30,400 these are not just pretty pictures. They're not just paintings, they're theology texts. 560 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:35,159 They're teaching us theology. Right, So let's see there's another. They've 561 00:40:35,159 --> 00:40:37,199 got several in here. Let me sit, let me find another good one. 562 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:43,119 Yeah, well, well yeah, all right. So this one, 563 00:40:43,159 --> 00:40:45,679 as you can see, is a problem too, because this one is called 564 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:52,639 the New Testament trinity. And this is a lot of these are either uniate 565 00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:57,559 or just Jesuit right, creation icons. So here the Father and the Son 566 00:40:57,639 --> 00:41:04,159 together are like equals, and then who's in the middle, the Holy Spirit. 567 00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:10,320 Yeah. So again it's just basically double hypostidic procession trying to be taught 568 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:16,840 there. Um, so you get the idea, Yeah, and I can 569 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:21,239 I mention one more thing? Sure, sure, go ahead. Here's one 570 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:28,559 called Coronation of the Virgin, which is also you'll notice Roman Catholic theology, 571 00:41:28,639 --> 00:41:31,440 where the Father and the Son together again, the Holy Spirit is coming as 572 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:36,960 a result of the Father and the Son together upon Mary. Just really weird, 573 00:41:37,039 --> 00:41:39,480 bizarre looking theology. But you got to have the old Man and you 574 00:41:39,519 --> 00:41:44,320 gotta have Jesus. Right. We don't do that. We don't have old 575 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:46,320 Man and then Jesus. Right, the Father and the Son It's not like 576 00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:53,400 that the ancient of Day's icon is the son with an older look, because 577 00:41:53,440 --> 00:42:00,960 that's what John sees in John one, and in John is referring back to 578 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:06,519 what's in Ezekiel one, Ezekiel nine, and ten. Does that make sense 579 00:42:06,519 --> 00:42:10,360 what I'm saying? Like John is seeing the sun in his glorified state, 580 00:42:12,639 --> 00:42:16,079 and he has an appearance of the ancient of days? Right, he looks 581 00:42:16,159 --> 00:42:20,679 like the Father, but it's the son bearing the image of the father. 582 00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:28,159 Does that make sense? Yeah? Definitely, And I guess I kind of 583 00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:30,599 said might be. I think you pretty much covered the entirety of the stuffy. 584 00:42:30,639 --> 00:42:34,119 I mean, you might as well just clip this section and just posted 585 00:42:34,199 --> 00:42:36,719 on YouTube. Was that perfect? Well? You know what we should because 586 00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:39,559 this every like every time there's a discussion that comes up, right, like, 587 00:42:39,599 --> 00:42:43,760 what's the ancient of days? Can we depict the Father? I mean 588 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:47,559 yeah, this comes up all the time. I'm trying to find an ancient 589 00:42:47,639 --> 00:42:53,159 of Day's icon that is Orthodox, and you can see how. I think 590 00:42:53,199 --> 00:43:00,000 there is one on Mount at Us that people will usually refer to. Are 591 00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:02,599 you thinking about that one? There is a there is one. I mean, 592 00:43:02,679 --> 00:43:07,880 there is an Orthodox Ancient of Day's icon um saying I want to say 593 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:12,480 somebody like, uh, there's also the talks about it being fine and he 594 00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:15,840 says it is the Father. And there's also the Chris cru icon that people 595 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:22,960 refer to because it's a miracle working right, same principle there. And there's 596 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:27,559 another fine one that's not Roman Catholic on here. Yeah, and there are 597 00:43:27,599 --> 00:43:31,360 also other this one would be Orthodox right like so here, I don't know 598 00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:36,480 who this is or where it's from, but it it's basically making the point 599 00:43:36,559 --> 00:43:44,840 that, uh, you'll notice that that's Christ. Right, it's a reference 600 00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:49,199 to the Father, but it's Christ as the person of the Father, right, 601 00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,400 mean, Christ himself is the icon of the person of the Father. 602 00:43:54,960 --> 00:44:00,159 It is not the hypostasis of the Father that's depicted in the icon Jesus the 603 00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:06,440 way that Ezekiel and John C. Jesus warrified one. It's it's the idea 604 00:44:06,559 --> 00:44:08,800 of the Father conveyed by the person of the Son. Thank you well, 605 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:14,679 perfect, I think that's the that's available. Good and tug Nazi. I 606 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,920 will definitely get to your question. I just your super chat. It is 607 00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:21,480 just that I want to kind of get to the super chat for other people 608 00:44:21,559 --> 00:44:25,239 PBF five gods subject, thank you, thanks for the great trap brothers appreciate 609 00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:31,119 it. And before all right, So I'll first get to Tuck Nasty's question. 610 00:44:31,599 --> 00:44:36,119 He asked current thoughts on farther Stephen Freeman, So who those who don't 611 00:44:36,119 --> 00:44:39,079 know. I guess there's a history between you two because father to Stephen Freeman 612 00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:42,800 used to well, I don't know if he still promotes, but he used 613 00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,920 to promote this idea that the Old Testament isn't really talking about real events that 614 00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:51,519 actually happened. Rather a lot of it was just merely allegory and not real 615 00:44:51,639 --> 00:44:54,559 history, whereas the Fathers treat the Old Testament as a history text even though 616 00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:59,840 it has allegory symbolical events. We don't deny this, but it also this 617 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:05,039 scraps real events that happened in history. So I guess you know what are 618 00:45:05,039 --> 00:45:08,519 your current taughts? And fought to Stephen Freeman. Well, I've never had 619 00:45:08,519 --> 00:45:12,800 a dispute with him, but Jay is the one that had so years ago. 620 00:45:13,159 --> 00:45:16,280 This was resulted from actually a priest was telling me that I should respond 621 00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:20,000 to as so people think I just go around trying to pick fights or something. 622 00:45:20,159 --> 00:45:22,880 Actually there was another priest who was messaging me saying, hey, would 623 00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:27,840 you reply to him on his blog on ancient faith because he was I mean 624 00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:30,960 it got pretty extreme at one point. I mean this is like six years 625 00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:32,480 ago, so I don't remember all the details of what his post was, 626 00:45:32,519 --> 00:45:38,360 but it was something like a lot of these Old Testament story It was basically 627 00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:45,199 a kind of a loose originism. I don't mean that he affirms origins universalism, 628 00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:49,320 but that many of the events accounted recounting in the Old Testament are not 629 00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:52,199 historical. And so the discussion got into things like, well, do you 630 00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:55,880 think Adam and Eve were historical? Do you think this or that? The 631 00:45:55,920 --> 00:46:00,320 problem with this is that you know, the New Testament in many many places 632 00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:07,119 speaks and presupposes that these people were actual historical people. The iconography teaches that 633 00:46:07,159 --> 00:46:10,199 they were actual historical people. I am in need, right, David Solomon, 634 00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:15,519 Right. So, like the problem is that you open the floodgates when 635 00:46:15,559 --> 00:46:19,239 you start saying that, oh, well, we don't have to believe that 636 00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:22,360 these are historical events, right, we do. In fact, there's a 637 00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:27,239 great quote always read from Saint Cyril of Alexandria. It's actually it's in the 638 00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:31,039 Genesis Creation Early man text by feather stuff from Rose. Here it is. 639 00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:37,920 Here's what Saint Cyril says on this. He says, questions in Joshua or 640 00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:42,639 now excuse me, that's a previous comment. Saint Cyril wrote that you cannot 641 00:46:42,679 --> 00:46:49,519 apprehend the scriptures correctly if one attempts to contemplate the spiritual meaning without respecting the 642 00:46:49,519 --> 00:46:54,840 actual historical meaning. Quote those who reject the historical meaning of the God inspired 643 00:46:54,880 --> 00:47:00,840 scriptures as something obsolete or avoiding the avoiding the ability to comprehend it rightly according 644 00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:06,639 to the proper manner the things written in them. For indeed, spiritual contemplation 645 00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:10,199 is good and is profitable, and it enlightens the eyes of reasoning, especially 646 00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:15,000 well it reveals the wisest of things. But whenever some historical events are presented 647 00:47:15,079 --> 00:47:20,360 us by holy scripture, in that instance, a useful search into the historical 648 00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:23,440 meaning is appropriate in order that the God inspire scriptures might be revealed to be 649 00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:28,719 selvific and beneficial to us in every way. That's commentary on Isaiah. So 650 00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:31,480 he's specifically talking about the events in Isaiah right Old Testament texts, and he's 651 00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:37,400 saying that you can't deny the historical reality upon which the allegory or upon which 652 00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:42,159 the spiritual meaning is predicated. And by the way, he's not the only 653 00:47:42,159 --> 00:47:46,079 one that says that. So, this idea that you could sacrifice the historical 654 00:47:46,159 --> 00:47:53,280 meaning to save a deeper allegorical spiritual meaning right at the cost of getting rid 655 00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:57,199 of the historical, is actually what's denied. And by the way, Saint 656 00:47:57,199 --> 00:48:01,039 Maximust Confessor says the exact same thing too. You have the Atholassium volume. 657 00:48:01,079 --> 00:48:06,079 There's an introductory essay written by Father Cosmos, and at the end of that 658 00:48:06,119 --> 00:48:10,599 introductory essay he says that same Maximus, never sacrifice the historical reality for the 659 00:48:10,639 --> 00:48:15,159 allegorical or the spiritual. And that's a mistake to do so. In fact, 660 00:48:15,159 --> 00:48:19,679 if you look in Galatians, for Paul makes his allegory on the basis 661 00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:23,119 of Abraham, Hagar, and Sarah having been actual people. The allegory would 662 00:48:23,119 --> 00:48:28,840 make no sense if they weren't historical people. And so this is the quadriga. 663 00:48:29,039 --> 00:48:31,639 This is the four senses of scripture. The four senses of scripture are 664 00:48:31,679 --> 00:48:37,360 never intended to deny the first sense. In fact, the other three senses 665 00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:42,639 are built on the first sense of scripture, the grammatical historical. That's the 666 00:48:42,639 --> 00:48:47,880 basis for the allegorical, the tropological, the anagogical. So it's really odd 667 00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:53,360 to me that anybody who you know, thinking about the historical, because these 668 00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:57,639 people always say, well, you don't know the church fathers. The church 669 00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:01,800 Fathers use symbolism and allegory. Well, they don't even realize that the four 670 00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:08,159 senses of scripture that they are using presuppose the first sense being the literal historical. 671 00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:13,079 And that's just standard scholarship on anybody that would talk about the four senses 672 00:49:13,119 --> 00:49:15,920 of scripture that comes out of the Early and Middle Ages, and it's it's 673 00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:19,960 codified in the Middle Ages, in the East end the West, by the 674 00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:22,920 way I mean, it's it's pretty universally used by the by the Middle Ages, 675 00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:25,360 by the East end the West, to speak of the four senses of 676 00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:30,239 scripture. Another point too, is that you know, he was for the 677 00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:35,519 Freeman in that those actually had written many articles. It wasn't just one. 678 00:49:35,599 --> 00:49:39,519 He had written many articles about well, the Old Testament isn't historical, and 679 00:49:39,599 --> 00:49:45,039 it was even verging on sort of quasi Marcianite statements about how you, well, 680 00:49:45,079 --> 00:49:46,440 this God, the Old Testament he's kind of mean, and you know, 681 00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:51,039 this doesn't make sense that he would operate this way and telling, you 682 00:49:51,079 --> 00:49:54,519 know, the Angel of the Lord going before the armies of Israel to destroy 683 00:49:54,599 --> 00:49:59,119 and cleanse the Promised Land. Jesus would never do that, you see. 684 00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:04,280 So you see the re well, that's Marcian. And so when I read 685 00:50:04,679 --> 00:50:07,400 Urinais against heresies, the funny thing is that when I responded, I did 686 00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:14,400 two videos responding to him back six years ago. Urinais uses the very examples 687 00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:20,400 that he was giving and says that these are historical events and if you deny 688 00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:25,400 these, you would be following Marcion. So I'm not people gotten mad at 689 00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:29,000 me, like, oh, you're so mean, who were you to do? 690 00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:34,280 I'm only disagreeing with what he's saying in these essays that I don't see 691 00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:37,559 any church fathers teaching this. The only church father I see teaching this is 692 00:50:37,599 --> 00:50:44,159 Origin, and Origin's view of sacrifice in the historical reality for the allegory is 693 00:50:44,199 --> 00:50:51,320 condemned in the confession of Saint Sophronius at the sixth Council explicitly. M Yeah. 694 00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:53,880 And one thing I'd like to add about seeing clearly is that it's not 695 00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:58,000 just comment here on Isaiah. He says this in the introduction to the Glyphia 696 00:50:58,039 --> 00:51:04,559 and the Pentitic that the historical sense is what gives foundation to the spiritual sense. 697 00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:07,239 So with without the historical sense, you don't have a spiritual sense. 698 00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:13,800 That that's as strong as an endorsement to an in vindication of the Old Testament 699 00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:16,719 being a history book, a history book that actually writes about real events that 700 00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:21,480 did happen. Um. Now one can argue abill some of the events that 701 00:51:21,639 --> 00:51:22,719 happened, you know, the whole. If you you know, some people 702 00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:25,719 are interesting the whole, like Nephilim discourse and Old Diver. They might say, 703 00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:29,079 oh, well, it's not just real people that you know are being 704 00:51:29,159 --> 00:51:32,519 bored against. These are actually like you know, demi human. You know, 705 00:51:32,639 --> 00:51:36,480 there's there's that interpretation, right, So like you can make that kind 706 00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:38,039 of an argument, But what you can't make as an argument is that, 707 00:51:38,039 --> 00:51:42,119 oh, well, this doesn't happened. This was just kind of like it. 708 00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:45,239 It's just it's just supposed to tell us a story, right, and 709 00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:50,679 to his credit, right, And obviously you're not like fans of like super 710 00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:52,360 big fans of Ancient Fate radio and all of that, But to his credit, 711 00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:58,280 um far as Stephen de Young does actually defend the history of the Old 712 00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:01,199 Testament, right, So, uh, to some people that might be interested 713 00:52:01,199 --> 00:52:05,079 in that, they might kind of like be encouraged at the very least to 714 00:52:05,119 --> 00:52:12,360 see that there's still some people that have a sensible view of scriptures. Yeah. 715 00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:14,559 I mean. It's the other thing too, is that you know, 716 00:52:14,599 --> 00:52:17,559 I've read enough of the Church Fathers over the years to know very well that 717 00:52:17,599 --> 00:52:22,639 there are countless quotes I'm not just quote mining, but I mean with with 718 00:52:22,679 --> 00:52:29,320 the proper context where the Church Fathers do talk about the inspiration and inerrancy of 719 00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:32,760 the scriptures. Uh, you know, even even Saint Jerome, but he's 720 00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:37,079 frequently speaks this way. And so you know, again, I want to 721 00:52:37,079 --> 00:52:43,000 remind people that if you have the the the Fathers of the Church at the 722 00:52:43,079 --> 00:52:45,960 Lastum, if you go to pages forty five, forty six, forty seven 723 00:52:46,159 --> 00:52:52,079 in Father Cosmos, the famous Maximus Scholar, he will sit here and give 724 00:52:52,119 --> 00:52:55,440 you an explanation of the four senses of scripture, and he will talk about 725 00:52:55,440 --> 00:53:00,679 how the purpose of this is to get you, too, area to contemplation 726 00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:05,760 of the scriptures and their true meaning. According to Saint Maximus, which is 727 00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:08,559 ultimately to contemplate the logi of Scripture, which is to point you to Christ. 728 00:53:09,519 --> 00:53:15,920 But in this four or five page section he explains very clearly that Maximus's 729 00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:22,679 notion of moving up, you could say in the contemplation from the literal historical 730 00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:27,679 right. It's grounded on the literal historical right. And so there's there's other 731 00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:35,239 mistakes going on too in this where they will call fundamentalism believing in the grammatical 732 00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:38,639 historical sense of the text, that's not what fundamentalism is. Fundamentalism is a 733 00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:45,360 movement of Protestant evangelicals in the twenty early twentieth century who hammered out five basics 734 00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:51,480 or fundamentals that they believed in that they wouldn't compromise on. So that's the 735 00:53:51,519 --> 00:53:54,760 actual origin of the term fundamentalism. And by the way, the five fundamentals 736 00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:59,239 are pretty much things that we would agree like the Trinity, the virgin birth, 737 00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:04,679 the deed of Christ. Those are the fundamentals that Protestant fundamentalists stated they 738 00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:09,400 believed in when the Protestant churches and Evangelical churches were being heavily liberalized in the 739 00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:14,920 nineteen twenties, thirties, and forties. So that's what fundamentalism is. That 740 00:54:15,079 --> 00:54:22,280 is a question of lack of faith in the Bible and in revelation. That 741 00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:29,679 is different from Hermanutics, which recognizes the four senses of Scripture in terms of 742 00:54:29,679 --> 00:54:35,360 exegesis. Two totally different questions. But the people who want to make you 743 00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:40,840 know the religion more palatable to atheists and two evolutionary proponents like they're always interested 744 00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:47,039 in conflating these things and acting like fundamentalism has something to do with hermonutics. 745 00:54:47,039 --> 00:54:52,760 Now it could, because you could have fundamentalists who do stupid exegesis. But 746 00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:58,719 those are two different questions. I mean, it's it's just a fundamental level 747 00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:02,480 confusion. And as I understand it, the reason that father Freeman kind of 748 00:55:02,519 --> 00:55:06,079 had a lot of these assumptions. I don't know him, so I've only 749 00:55:06,119 --> 00:55:08,079 interacted with him seven years ago on that blog, and I'm not trying to 750 00:55:08,119 --> 00:55:12,920 be mean to him or rude to him. I'm not saying anything bad about 751 00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:16,159 him personally. I don't know him. But the my understanding was that he 752 00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:20,159 had come I think from an Anglican background, and a lot of people who 753 00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:25,639 come out of Anglicanism or Episcopelianism into Orthodoxy. They're trained in you know, 754 00:55:25,719 --> 00:55:30,079 liberal institutions, and then they just come into Orthodoxy thinking, oh orthodox, 755 00:55:30,119 --> 00:55:35,360 He's like this more mystical version of an older mystical version of Episcopelianism, and 756 00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:38,880 I can keep all of my textual liberalism. And it's just it's not that's 757 00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:43,880 not honest with what the church fathers teach about the texts. You can you 758 00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:49,800 will not find church fathers saying that the texts are not historical. I mean 759 00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:55,079 that's severely in the minority. Okay, you might find Nissa, Saint Gregonissa 760 00:55:55,239 --> 00:56:00,159 agreeing in a few places with origin, but other than Saint Gregonissa, no, 761 00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:01,840 In fact, a lot of these people lie too. They'll take Saint 762 00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:08,079 Gregor Palamas, where he talks about places in Genesis, in Genesis one, 763 00:56:08,119 --> 00:56:13,440 they'll say when he's talking about the creation of the angelic aon, they'll take 764 00:56:13,519 --> 00:56:17,280 that and lie and say that he's saying that Genesis isn't historical. Total nonsense. 765 00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:22,519 He's talking about the creation of the angelic realm not being in history because 766 00:56:22,559 --> 00:56:28,199 they're created in the spiritual realm angels, right, they're not created in time. 767 00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:31,440 And so you see how people are are crafty and they lie and they 768 00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:37,199 say, Aha, see Saint Gregor Palamas is denying sixth day creation and then 769 00:56:37,199 --> 00:56:39,599 he turns around it teaches sixth day creation. It's just total dishonesty about these 770 00:56:39,639 --> 00:56:49,039 people. Yeah, definitely on I think I think the main problem with this 771 00:56:49,199 --> 00:56:52,840 kind of like allegorization because a lot of people think but like they kind of 772 00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:55,800 have this dialectical view of like, Okay, if you're not a fun you 773 00:56:55,840 --> 00:57:00,920 know, if you're not having the symbolic logical view that you're supposed to have, 774 00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:06,079 then the opposite is you just take everything at face value and you'd end 775 00:57:06,159 --> 00:57:08,960 up defending indefensible things and that this is kind of just you know, it's 776 00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:14,639 you don't believe in bory or the spiritual sense and you think that everything is 777 00:57:14,719 --> 00:57:17,400 literal. There's a thousand year premillennial kingdom and you're a dispensationalist. This is 778 00:57:17,639 --> 00:57:22,239 totally silly, right, It's just unnecessary, right it you know, both 779 00:57:22,239 --> 00:57:25,679 approaches can be wrong, and it doesn't mean that just one extreme being rejected, 780 00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:29,679 it doesn't mean that the other extreme must be endorsed. Right. It's 781 00:57:29,679 --> 00:57:37,639 not like I have to choose between documentary hypothesis higher critical liberalism, Jesus quest 782 00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:40,079 on the one hand, and then over here I have to be John Hagey 783 00:57:40,159 --> 00:57:44,920 dispensationalist. You know, thousand year kingdom, dragons flying around in space, 784 00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:47,559 seven day avenues. Literally, they act like that's the two choices you have, 785 00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:51,719 no, Yeah, and it's it's similar to kind of like the temptation 786 00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:53,559 that people had in the fifty sixth centuries. But like on the one hand, 787 00:57:53,599 --> 00:57:57,639 they saw the an off site extreme and then they thought, Okay, 788 00:57:57,639 --> 00:58:00,320 if you're not gonna be an officide, you're gonna be nestorian then. But 789 00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:04,960 orthodoxy just tells you, actually, both of these extremes are wrong. There 790 00:58:05,079 --> 00:58:08,880 is a proper royal path in this and that's what got bad news for the 791 00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:14,920 allegorizers to the extreme. And by the way, allegory is a valid fourth 792 00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:17,920 sense of scripture, right or second sense. However you list them, it 793 00:58:17,920 --> 00:58:23,159 doesn't really matter. If you read the Aspensky Lasky book on icons, the 794 00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:35,480 chapter on Hassikia and icon and particularly the chapter dealing with the energy's doctrine and 795 00:58:35,679 --> 00:58:42,239 icons. Okay, this whole chapter where Saint Gregory Palamas is discussed in how 796 00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:45,639 iconography is tied into the US and synergy distinction. I got bad news for 797 00:58:45,679 --> 00:58:53,719 those people because Palamos argues that icons are not symbols. Icons are conveying realities, 798 00:58:53,960 --> 00:58:59,880 and he argues that everything that you see in an icon is a historical 799 00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:08,519 reality. That's his theological argumentation. So unless you want to deny icons, 800 00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:14,119 which is ultimately what the originist view does. People don't even remember if you 801 00:59:14,119 --> 00:59:21,119 read the Mayador text on business he theology, the chapter on monks and humanists, 802 00:59:21,159 --> 00:59:29,480 he says that the motivation behind iconoclasm is platonism and originism. Why would 803 00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:35,400 platonism and originism be the motivation behind the attack on icons? Very simple, 804 00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:42,440 because origins presuppositions are the denigration of history and of time. That's why he 805 00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:47,280 has a problem with the body. Okay, how could the body be resurrected 806 00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:51,320 as the body? It's not good. It's bad. History is bad. 807 00:59:51,480 --> 00:59:54,800 We got a flight flee from history and from time. Those are prisons platos. 808 00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:59,360 So the body is a tomb, Time is a prison. Because that's 809 00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:02,679 gnostick, that's Platonic doctrine. That's not our doctrine. Because Jesus stepped into 810 01:00:02,719 --> 01:00:07,000 time and he assumed and deified actual human nature, the same body that we 811 01:00:07,079 --> 01:00:15,880 have, the same nature that we have. So iconography is an affirmation of 812 01:00:15,199 --> 01:00:22,280 the grammatical historical events. Palamas says, they are real historical events in icons 813 01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:25,119 and if you say that they're not, you're a neo platonist and you're actually 814 01:00:25,119 --> 01:00:32,920 condemned by the Seven Council. Yep, and let me let's see, all 815 01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:37,320 right, another super chat. Think you jacked, meister shul I mean, 816 01:00:37,440 --> 01:00:40,199 it's going to be kind of difficult to go through all of this kind of 817 01:00:40,199 --> 01:00:44,760 stuff, but really appreciate you. All of you guys were supporting the stream. 818 01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:47,559 He sends five dollars. And I guess I suppose this is a question 819 01:00:47,599 --> 01:00:51,199 for me, because he says Christ is ascended, truly, he has ascended 820 01:00:51,199 --> 01:00:54,000 out of curiosity. Do you think he will ever do an updated refutation of 821 01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:59,159 the fake Orthodox? Right? So the first thing I will say is, 822 01:00:59,199 --> 01:01:01,480 I think what I already did is already sufficient, and it's only kind of 823 01:01:01,480 --> 01:01:05,880 gets into the key things. And I don't think if I updated it, 824 01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:07,760 I will kind of just say the same thing in a refined language, so 825 01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:13,039 to speak. But I also I could kind of just get into the basics 826 01:01:13,159 --> 01:01:16,199 of it right now and kind of just explain why it is a nonsense cool 827 01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:21,159 position. And so for those who don't know, we're referring to the old 828 01:01:21,199 --> 01:01:24,079 calendar. Is they called themselves genuine Orthodox, they called themselves true Orthodox, 829 01:01:24,159 --> 01:01:27,960 right, So they have these various different names. They tend to not be 830 01:01:28,039 --> 01:01:30,039 in community each other. So these are just different splinter groups. And the 831 01:01:30,079 --> 01:01:36,519 basis for their separation is initially the adoption of the new calendar. They claimed 832 01:01:36,559 --> 01:01:39,519 this was uncanonical. The evidence that they use was the Cigilion of sixteen eighty 833 01:01:39,519 --> 01:01:44,840 three. It turns out that was not actually the Canada they're talking about. 834 01:01:44,880 --> 01:01:49,119 What doesn't actually exist. What is condemned is using the new calendar, Pascal 835 01:01:49,360 --> 01:01:52,400 calendar. But the new calendar that we use in the Orthodox Church uses the 836 01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:57,119 old calendar, Pascal calendar, right, which is why we have not only 837 01:01:57,159 --> 01:02:01,000 a different Easter to the Roman Catholics, you know, unless you have times 838 01:02:01,239 --> 01:02:05,599 in twenty twenty five or they happen to coincide. This is also why we 839 01:02:05,639 --> 01:02:08,480 have different days on Ascension and Pentecost, right, This is because we use 840 01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:13,000 a different Pascal calendar. So you're not condemned by the council. We don't 841 01:02:13,079 --> 01:02:16,360 do that. We don't do that right at the very least, not now 842 01:02:16,480 --> 01:02:19,599 or anything like that. I don't think it's going to happen in the future. 843 01:02:19,639 --> 01:02:22,480 So that's the first thing I will will note is that there's no canonical 844 01:02:22,519 --> 01:02:27,760 basis for the initial separation. But then the reason became all because you're ecumenist 845 01:02:27,960 --> 01:02:34,400 and your bishops preach heresy bear headed, right, And they use the first 846 01:02:34,400 --> 01:02:40,559 second Council that Saint photis presided Canon fifteen about how it is valid to separate 847 01:02:40,639 --> 01:02:45,280 from communion from bishops that teach heresy bear headed, and they make it seem 848 01:02:45,320 --> 01:02:51,800 as if you're obligated to do that, and there's this kind of mechanic behind 849 01:02:51,800 --> 01:02:55,079 it they have in their mind where if you have a bishop that is preaching 850 01:02:55,079 --> 01:03:00,679 heresy bear headed, then he basically poisons the communion that of the other bishops 851 01:03:00,719 --> 01:03:02,480 that he's a part of. Right, So it's not just Patriarch Bartolomy that 852 01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:06,000 they will say is a problem. Well, the other bishops are in community 853 01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:07,800 with Bartolomy, is what they will argue, So you shouldn't be in communit 854 01:03:07,800 --> 01:03:10,079 with any of these churches. So there's two extreme positions. One of them 855 01:03:10,079 --> 01:03:14,559 say, well, the ortolac Shi still has grace, so they will recognize 856 01:03:14,559 --> 01:03:16,440 that we have grace, they will just say we shouldn't. We are not 857 01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:21,239 the true churcher, we should not be you know they you know, they 858 01:03:21,239 --> 01:03:23,480 should basically fix. So that's kind of just in more of a mogic position. 859 01:03:23,519 --> 01:03:25,719 Then there's the extreme position that just says, Okay, the Ortolast Church 860 01:03:25,760 --> 01:03:29,960 doesn't even have grace, they don't have any any kind of grace. They 861 01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:34,599 don't have any baptism and a Eucharius anything of that sort. So the problem 862 01:03:34,639 --> 01:03:38,800 with this communal view is that it is ahistorical. Right, There's many instances 863 01:03:38,800 --> 01:03:43,599 of bishops preaching heresy bearheaded where the other bishops who are completely a verefit and 864 01:03:43,599 --> 01:03:45,400 they still remain in community with them. The source is an example of this. 865 01:03:45,679 --> 01:03:49,199 Another example i'd like to use, and this is an example I didn't 866 01:03:49,280 --> 01:03:51,320 use in this video, but I can. I can use it in this 867 01:03:51,440 --> 01:03:57,880 stream is actually ten fifty four because until the thirteenth or fourteenth century, Alexandria 868 01:03:57,960 --> 01:04:00,920 was in community with the Roman Catholic Church. Now we will say the Roman 869 01:04:00,960 --> 01:04:04,840 Catholic Church were heretics even you know after that time, would you say that 870 01:04:04,880 --> 01:04:09,079 the patriarch of Alexandra was Roman Catholic or would you say they were Orthodox? 871 01:04:09,159 --> 01:04:11,599 Right? I mean, that's that's a question mark. We will as Orthodist 872 01:04:11,679 --> 01:04:15,880 Christians say that they were Orthodox Christians that were still in you know, still 873 01:04:15,880 --> 01:04:18,199 trying to hold onto the unity of the Church, and until you know, 874 01:04:18,239 --> 01:04:21,119 read the Council of Forlorence, that kind of just went to vent. Right. 875 01:04:21,639 --> 01:04:26,320 But that's that's a historical fact, and and it's it's a historical fact 876 01:04:26,360 --> 01:04:31,440 that challenges the ecclesiology of the so called true Orthodox position. So the true 877 01:04:31,719 --> 01:04:35,800 and the problem with again with Cam fifteen of the first Second Council is that 878 01:04:35,880 --> 01:04:41,559 all it tells you is that if if a bishop is preaching heresy bareheaded, 879 01:04:41,639 --> 01:04:46,320 you can separate community with that bishop from that bishop and you don't get condemned 880 01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:49,800 as a result of it. But it doesn't say you have to do this 881 01:04:49,920 --> 01:04:55,280 right. So the monks that Constantinople separated from community the stories, they didn't 882 01:04:55,280 --> 01:04:58,800 recognize him as a bishop, but there were many bishops in other parts of 883 01:04:58,880 --> 01:05:00,880 Christian or they were fully are of what the stories were saying. Antioch strad 884 01:05:00,960 --> 01:05:05,639 Up defended these stories for until for thirty three. Patriarch of Antioch Stride up 885 01:05:05,639 --> 01:05:11,760 defending their stories. Everyone was in community Antioch two, and even they defended 886 01:05:11,840 --> 01:05:15,880 him even after the Atturnycommendical Council, right even after the eclesial condemnation, they 887 01:05:15,880 --> 01:05:19,920 still defended him. And the churches were still in community with Antioch. So 888 01:05:20,039 --> 01:05:25,679 what does that mean. It just means that they were still part of the 889 01:05:25,840 --> 01:05:29,280 Orthodox show there, the sacraments were still being recognized, they were still in 890 01:05:29,320 --> 01:05:31,480 community the rest of Orthodox churches. They were still part of the Orthodox Church. 891 01:05:31,559 --> 01:05:35,079 There was not a full blown schism. And so the importance of maintained 892 01:05:35,119 --> 01:05:39,800 communion in spite of these wrong things that happened, and a lot of people 893 01:05:39,800 --> 01:05:42,679 talk about this is to preserve the unity of the church, right, This 894 01:05:42,760 --> 01:05:45,440 is what's important. So if you talk about like Moscow Constantinople, one thing 895 01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:49,360 that we can talk about, although there's an egoistic separation, there's a recognition 896 01:05:49,360 --> 01:05:53,719 of sacraments from both sides, right, and this kind of preserves the unity 897 01:05:53,760 --> 01:05:56,280 of the church in that regard as well. So a lot of people had 898 01:05:56,360 --> 01:05:59,400 this Roman Catholic understanding of schism or like you're thrown out of the church and 899 01:05:59,440 --> 01:06:01,519 that's so it's over. You know, you're gone you're out, like completely, 900 01:06:01,599 --> 01:06:05,559 you're completely gone out veryas in your talk Church. It's it's in degrees, 901 01:06:05,800 --> 01:06:10,119 right, and it's it moves over time, right, it progresses over 902 01:06:10,199 --> 01:06:13,920 time. So that's a vast difference between the two positions, and from my 903 01:06:14,079 --> 01:06:18,079 observation, the so called Shortsdox position is trying to maintain Orthodox ecclesiology with Roman 904 01:06:18,119 --> 01:06:21,920 Catholic pizzub positions. I'm not saying they're Roman, obviously they're not trying to 905 01:06:21,920 --> 01:06:26,320 be Roman Catholic, but I do think they that they want to or not 906 01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:30,840 have Roman Catholic presuppositions in their ecclesialogy. Ing you want to add to Jay 907 01:06:30,920 --> 01:06:32,400 before we move on to the next but no, I mean I think you 908 01:06:32,880 --> 01:06:36,920 nailed it there. I mean it's this attitude of like, uh, everything 909 01:06:38,039 --> 01:06:41,079 is sort of like a light switch, like it just flips, or like 910 01:06:41,079 --> 01:06:45,719 as soon as somebody says something heretical, the light swift slitch switches flip and 911 01:06:45,760 --> 01:06:48,239 then everything is just the grace is shut off like some kind of machinery, 912 01:06:48,320 --> 01:06:51,960 you know, like the electricity is no longer there, and it's just kind 913 01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:58,840 of it's completely a historical and unrealistic when it comes to how the church operates 914 01:06:58,840 --> 01:07:02,960 in history, there's a nautical procedure that occur, like phases that occur for 915 01:07:03,199 --> 01:07:08,239 things like the excommunication of patriarchs and bishopers and so forth. It's not this 916 01:07:08,519 --> 01:07:12,719 overnight thing. It's it's true that people have in I mean, it's a 917 01:07:12,719 --> 01:07:15,760 case by case basis what I'm trying to say. You can't like apply this 918 01:07:15,800 --> 01:07:20,519 one size fits all to where the light switch goes out and then everybody's lost 919 01:07:20,519 --> 01:07:24,880 grace. It just doesn't make sense. It's in it. What it does 920 01:07:24,960 --> 01:07:30,039 is that it's realizing real problems but then having a bad solution to real problems. 921 01:07:30,039 --> 01:07:35,920 And we don't see in church history saints setting up parallel ecclesiological uh you 922 01:07:35,920 --> 01:07:45,079 know structures. Parallel ecclesiological structures is what schism is. So yeah, precisely, 923 01:07:45,159 --> 01:07:49,360 so I can be, you know, I'm sympathetic at the very least 924 01:07:49,440 --> 01:07:54,800 to the teo positions that still actually say, you know, you guys are 925 01:07:54,880 --> 01:07:57,159 still part of the true Church. It's just that this needs to be. 926 01:07:57,239 --> 01:08:00,719 But there's very few of them that actually genuinely holds that view, and the 927 01:08:00,800 --> 01:08:03,599 ones that do end up becoming orthodox anyway. That's kind of my observation both 928 01:08:03,639 --> 01:08:06,159 from the history of the church. Right, we have a lot of saints 929 01:08:06,199 --> 01:08:11,119 that used to be Old calendaris and they became Orthodox because they saw pretty much 930 01:08:11,360 --> 01:08:15,760 very similar things about the same things about the ecclesiological problems of this kind of 931 01:08:15,800 --> 01:08:17,640 position, how it's really a dead end position at the end of the day. 932 01:08:18,239 --> 01:08:25,039 Another question from Ilius is he asked, is architecture as important as iconography 933 01:08:25,039 --> 01:08:27,960 in the Orthodox Church? I'm aware of the vision for Agia Sophia and the 934 01:08:27,960 --> 01:08:32,800 Easter pate pointing altars any more points. So the first the main survival kind 935 01:08:32,800 --> 01:08:34,560 of give is that, well, there's a lot of precedents from the Old 936 01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:40,560 Testament liturgical structure itself, right, whether the user of iconography themselves, the 937 01:08:40,720 --> 01:08:46,079 nave, the altar, the kind of purpose of the structure, the architecture, 938 01:08:46,880 --> 01:08:51,359 all of that has precedents in the Old Testament and liturgical structure. But 939 01:08:53,039 --> 01:08:56,319 this is something that is also up your speeches. So what would you also 940 01:08:56,359 --> 01:09:00,000 add, like to the importance of the architecture. Why do Orthodox churches look 941 01:09:00,079 --> 01:09:06,239 the specific way they do? Right? I did a talk on a book 942 01:09:06,239 --> 01:09:13,119 called uh Mystagogy of the Church, and that's a little work by Saint Maximus, 943 01:09:13,359 --> 01:09:17,520 and he talks about the structure and symbolism of the church. Um, 944 01:09:17,720 --> 01:09:23,680 so it does have an important role. And there are you know, strictures 945 01:09:23,720 --> 01:09:28,000 and limitations on how the church can be built. So it is important. 946 01:09:28,800 --> 01:09:33,399 Um, I don't think it's as important as iconographic theology because it's you know, 947 01:09:33,399 --> 01:09:40,039 the iconography is more is more of a direct presentation of the theology. 948 01:09:40,079 --> 01:09:44,159 And sometimes the church, you know, sometimes people have to rent another person's 949 01:09:44,199 --> 01:09:47,279 building, you know, to do to do services. So but it does 950 01:09:47,399 --> 01:09:51,560 matter, and eventually it does the theology seeps into the architecture. Sure, 951 01:09:55,880 --> 01:10:00,199 yeah, I think I definitely agree on I think, like, h the 952 01:10:00,319 --> 01:10:05,039 architecture, like it's more like a well, the way to describe is, 953 01:10:05,199 --> 01:10:11,840 especially in the early Christian persecutions, is that the basis for what we do 954 01:10:11,960 --> 01:10:15,720 or worship is fundamentally internal, right, That's like the most crucial thing. 955 01:10:15,159 --> 01:10:19,960 And so when we talk about externals like architecture, even iconography, even though 956 01:10:20,000 --> 01:10:25,079 that's part of the internal right worship service. Due to the theology of iconography, 957 01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:27,279 with the sun being the icon of the Father and all of that, 958 01:10:28,159 --> 01:10:31,880 all of that kind of becomes more manifested over time. And the possibilities emerge 959 01:10:31,920 --> 01:10:34,119 as well. Right, So this is why you will see, well, 960 01:10:34,359 --> 01:10:40,359 this is why obviously there's a vast difference in architecture within the early Church pre 961 01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:44,359 Saint Constantine and Postine Constans, because well, there wasn't really even a possibility 962 01:10:44,439 --> 01:10:49,079 to kind of showcase the manifestation of Christian worship and architecture. And even still 963 01:10:49,199 --> 01:10:53,680 some places today, right, Like there's apartment churches, there's places that people 964 01:10:53,760 --> 01:10:59,159 rent, like they are used as Roman Catholic churches or Anglican churches, and 965 01:10:59,199 --> 01:11:02,479 they used they are used, you know, by renting as Orthodox churches to 966 01:11:02,600 --> 01:11:04,720 conduct service. Right, So it's not, as you said, it's not 967 01:11:04,800 --> 01:11:09,600 as a it's not like it's a thing that you necessarily have to have in 968 01:11:09,680 --> 01:11:12,600 order to have correct service, but it is something that is an outworking of 969 01:11:12,760 --> 01:11:17,079 the liturgy itself, and the possibility does does emerge. Right, So that's 970 01:11:17,119 --> 01:11:21,159 I will definitely agree with that point. Training Melissa with the five dollars great 971 01:11:21,159 --> 01:11:26,239 stuff, thinks David and Jay appreciate the five dollars super chat think hum Melissa, 972 01:11:27,479 --> 01:11:30,880 Ryan asks five dollars thank you for the super chat. Keep up the 973 01:11:30,920 --> 01:11:33,840 awesome work, guys, y'all are bringing tons of people to arthodoxy. My 974 01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:40,239 question is is there any hope for the for the Greek Orthodox archdiocracy and the 975 01:11:40,279 --> 01:11:45,000 Acoumenical Patriarchate God bless Well. I am part of the Acumenical patriarch it directly. 976 01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:49,319 I do think there's hope, but obviously there's a lot of difficulties regarding 977 01:11:49,319 --> 01:11:55,479 the geopolitical situation and some of the policies of the EP itself. As someone 978 01:11:55,680 --> 01:11:59,880 on the ground himself, I will my main thing is, you know the 979 01:12:00,079 --> 01:12:02,920 bit. One of the reasons why the EP does a lot of things that 980 01:12:03,119 --> 01:12:08,439 kind of bogs people's mind is because of the geopolitical situation of the Chomedical Patriarch 981 01:12:08,439 --> 01:12:14,600 and being in the constats Noble Patriarch. Bartone definitely definitely thinks whether that is 982 01:12:14,600 --> 01:12:17,000 actually true or not, that's a different question, but he definitely does believe 983 01:12:17,079 --> 01:12:25,199 that any wrong move he might make is going to make the Turkish government angry, 984 01:12:25,319 --> 01:12:28,600 and that's one of the reasons why he is very much aligning himself to 985 01:12:28,640 --> 01:12:31,680 the US government. For the same reason why the Chemical Patriarch allied with the 986 01:12:31,680 --> 01:12:38,439 British government right during the during the conflicts during the First World War and m 987 01:12:38,479 --> 01:12:42,399 the aftermath off it, which which is why, right the initial Turkish policy 988 01:12:42,439 --> 01:12:45,560 of skepticism towards their chemical patriarch it ended up being in the case is because 989 01:12:45,800 --> 01:12:48,359 while you guys sided with the British and now we've got the country back, 990 01:12:48,439 --> 01:12:50,880 so what are you guys going to do about it? Right? And this 991 01:12:50,960 --> 01:12:55,000 is why there's the whole Turkish patriarch a story and all of that. I 992 01:12:55,039 --> 01:12:57,520 guess that's a different story. But I mean, I have I have hope. 993 01:12:57,520 --> 01:13:00,000 I think there's certain things they do properly that you can look at at 994 01:13:00,119 --> 01:13:03,159 the jurisdictions that they don't properly do. There's also a lot of problems that 995 01:13:03,239 --> 01:13:06,000 needs to be sold. But I think I think the source of a lot 996 01:13:06,000 --> 01:13:10,960 of the issues that people have, probably with regards to Ukraine, which I 997 01:13:11,000 --> 01:13:14,439 can say very clearly that I definitely think the Comical Patriarch is wrong on the 998 01:13:14,479 --> 01:13:21,239 Ukraine situation. A lot of it is because of geopolitical situation and EPs alliance, 999 01:13:21,479 --> 01:13:25,880 whether they want to or not, EPs alliance with the United States government 1000 01:13:25,920 --> 01:13:28,680 and the aftermath of it. I don't think they should be allied with the 1001 01:13:28,720 --> 01:13:30,920 United States, but you know, you can't really say they should be allied 1002 01:13:30,960 --> 01:13:35,279 with Russiated because Russia has a history of kind of just using different nations and 1003 01:13:35,279 --> 01:13:38,680 groups and kind of just say okay, I used you and I'll get away, 1004 01:13:38,800 --> 01:13:41,239 right, So Russia does have a history of doing that, which is 1005 01:13:41,239 --> 01:13:43,800 why it's it's not as simple as it looks like. That's kind of my 1006 01:13:44,000 --> 01:13:49,199 take on the ecumenical patriarch it as as someone who lives in is stumbled right, 1007 01:13:49,239 --> 01:13:54,279 So what would you say, jay As, Like, what was your 1008 01:13:54,319 --> 01:14:00,960 take on the Greek church in mostly you know abroad, I understand what you're 1009 01:14:01,000 --> 01:14:04,199 saying. You know, it gets complex in other countries. I mean in 1010 01:14:04,239 --> 01:14:10,800 the United States, it's it's pretty cut and dry typically when it comes to 1011 01:14:10,880 --> 01:14:15,840 what you can and should and shouldn't support. And so you know, a 1012 01:14:15,840 --> 01:14:19,920 lot of the the GOA is pretty bad news in the US, and so 1013 01:14:20,119 --> 01:14:24,560 I would just say, like Father McHale did a video last night that was 1014 01:14:24,600 --> 01:14:28,479 really good where he was talking about how you know, you know, don't 1015 01:14:28,520 --> 01:14:30,000 you don't need to be giving these people your money. So it's time to 1016 01:14:30,079 --> 01:14:33,960 move on to in my view, churches that are are more faithful. So 1017 01:14:34,039 --> 01:14:38,560 try to find one that's more faithful, because if in the United States. 1018 01:14:38,680 --> 01:14:42,520 Unfortunately, a lot of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese is basically just an adjunct of 1019 01:14:42,520 --> 01:14:45,640 the Democratic Party openly. So, I mean, the Democratic Party is crazy, 1020 01:14:45,720 --> 01:14:50,720 So why are you supporting these people? It's just nuts, I mean, 1021 01:14:50,840 --> 01:14:53,880 and they make it very easy for you to figure out, like you 1022 01:14:53,880 --> 01:14:56,159 have to go get some PhD to figure out, you know, what these 1023 01:14:56,159 --> 01:15:00,279 people are supporting. It's all public, so I would, yeah, I 1024 01:15:00,279 --> 01:15:04,159 don't support these people. Vote with your dollars. Mm, yeah, I 1025 01:15:04,239 --> 01:15:09,439 think that's uh yeah, I And like in in here there's kind of like, 1026 01:15:10,600 --> 01:15:13,159 I guess I actually, never mind, I'm not going to talk about 1027 01:15:13,199 --> 01:15:15,760 them because they don't they don't deserve publicity, so I'll maybe I'll save it 1028 01:15:15,800 --> 01:15:23,119 for another day. But um, so it seems like there's someone mad in 1029 01:15:23,199 --> 01:15:30,520 the light chat. Well what about yeah, uh, they're they're a Monophysite 1030 01:15:30,640 --> 01:15:33,279 who calls us, Oh yeah, he says you that story. Heretics believe 1031 01:15:33,319 --> 01:15:39,079 a christis two nature's tubls, two energies, two minds, which is yes, 1032 01:15:39,199 --> 01:15:44,079 we do believe that. Um, because he's human and divine being human 1033 01:15:44,119 --> 01:15:46,760 means you have a human vill So he has a human vill in divine ville. 1034 01:15:47,159 --> 01:15:50,680 Being human means he has human activities, which means he has two energies. 1035 01:15:50,720 --> 01:15:56,239 Being human means he has a human mind. So there's no shame in 1036 01:15:56,239 --> 01:16:00,880 admitting that. What is shameful is actually thinking that or position is shameful. 1037 01:16:00,880 --> 01:16:06,079 In his position, it leads to try teasm because by that logic mind energy 1038 01:16:06,119 --> 01:16:10,119 will all of these will be proper to the person, proper to hyper stasis. 1039 01:16:10,159 --> 01:16:12,439 There are three hype statis in the trinity, therefore there will be three 1040 01:16:12,520 --> 01:16:15,720 vols. Well, rich church father believes that none of them, not a 1041 01:16:15,800 --> 01:16:20,600 single one of them. They condemned this as heresy. So yeah, that's 1042 01:16:20,600 --> 01:16:25,279 all I will say to that, to that nonsense. So I appreciate a 1043 01:16:25,279 --> 01:16:28,199 two dollars super chat or to Eric, But I guess that's that's basically how 1044 01:16:28,239 --> 01:16:30,479 I will will kind of do, and I will already have a massive playlist 1045 01:16:30,520 --> 01:16:33,359 on this issue. A lot of these people, just a lot of these 1046 01:16:33,359 --> 01:16:36,239 people just cope, and a lot of these people don't even listen, they 1047 01:16:36,239 --> 01:16:41,079 don't even read. They just make these propaganda lines and they try to agitate. 1048 01:16:41,479 --> 01:16:45,000 But what I see is that I see a lot of people Ethiopians, 1049 01:16:45,119 --> 01:16:48,319 Syriacs, cops that actually look at the material you present, look at the 1050 01:16:48,399 --> 01:16:51,119 arguments we present, and actually do become orthodox. I've heard I've seen a 1051 01:16:51,119 --> 01:16:55,800 lot of people, particularly Ethiopians, some of them marine even in the chat 1052 01:16:55,880 --> 01:17:00,600 here, that actually became orthodox because they saw the same thing that I am 1053 01:17:00,640 --> 01:17:04,640 talking about right now, right that the monoposie position on Christ is heretical because 1054 01:17:04,640 --> 01:17:11,479 it leads to various different heresies of triteism to even the Storianism. As a 1055 01:17:11,520 --> 01:17:14,640 matter of fact, it is just a different side of the coin. But 1056 01:17:14,960 --> 01:17:17,399 it still used the same piece of theological piece of positions that the story has 1057 01:17:17,479 --> 01:17:23,279 had. So I think people are interesting. Chick can check that playlist. 1058 01:17:23,359 --> 01:17:30,720 But one okay, Frankie d another ten dollars super chat. I appreciate it, 1059 01:17:30,760 --> 01:17:33,680 He asked, Jay. Are there icons that explained the theological reality but 1060 01:17:33,840 --> 01:17:39,520 not the historical reality, such as the icon of Ascension and Pentecost which shows 1061 01:17:39,520 --> 01:17:45,000 Paul present with the apostles, but he wasn't there. Yeah, but if 1062 01:17:45,039 --> 01:17:48,640 you look at the argumentation as to that that actually comes up in the iconography 1063 01:17:49,760 --> 01:17:58,239 chapter in this and the dispute is over. Even though Paul wasn't there in 1064 01:17:58,319 --> 01:18:01,840 terms of time and space, he is there in terms of the theology. 1065 01:18:02,000 --> 01:18:09,920 So the point is not that every icon is only depicting historical events. The 1066 01:18:10,279 --> 01:18:15,199 icons are depicting historical and eternal realities at once. Both. It's a both 1067 01:18:15,359 --> 01:18:20,600 end. So you misunderstood my comment, my clarification as if I was saying 1068 01:18:20,640 --> 01:18:27,920 that icons are only depicting historical realities. They're depicting historical realities and eternal realities 1069 01:18:28,000 --> 01:18:34,640 at the same time. And sometimes those theological realities surpass and transcend historical realities. 1070 01:18:34,680 --> 01:18:39,119 But that's not a denial of the historical reality. Because there's a debate. 1071 01:18:39,119 --> 01:18:44,079 There's a discussion over whether Paul is present there because he's one of the 1072 01:18:44,119 --> 01:18:53,640 apostles, even though he wasn't literally standing there at at Pentecost. Yeah, 1073 01:18:53,680 --> 01:19:02,039 and another question that someone had is from Lewis. I think that's tense Fis 1074 01:19:02,039 --> 01:19:09,000 Franks think you appreciate the super chat. He asked, if the Bible forbids 1075 01:19:09,079 --> 01:19:11,760 drinking blood, why do we drink Jesus blood and the eu Chris The short 1076 01:19:11,760 --> 01:19:15,840 answer I will give is that the blood is the life, and so the 1077 01:19:15,920 --> 01:19:21,640 life of animals are sacrificed to God. Basically, that's very basically putting it. 1078 01:19:21,680 --> 01:19:25,960 And we partake of the life of Christ himself. That's why we take 1079 01:19:25,960 --> 01:19:29,720 to Eu Chris and because that life that Christ himself has is shared to us 1080 01:19:29,720 --> 01:19:33,119 for our salvation. So that's the basic take that I will have. So, 1081 01:19:33,279 --> 01:19:38,359 Jay, I mean the Old Testament, the forbidding of blood is has 1082 01:19:38,399 --> 01:19:43,760 to do with death and coming in contact with death. And so you're not 1083 01:19:43,800 --> 01:19:46,000 supposed to eat if you're going to eat an animal in the Old Testament, 1084 01:19:46,000 --> 01:19:48,359 it has to have you know, Nope, you have to have the blood 1085 01:19:48,439 --> 01:19:55,520 drained. Right. This is the whole basis behind how Jews you know, 1086 01:19:55,640 --> 01:19:59,880 do kosher meats and all that stuff. So, but the point is that 1087 01:20:00,800 --> 01:20:05,000 it's not blood itself that is bad. It's that you can't be in contact 1088 01:20:05,000 --> 01:20:09,760 with death in the Old Testament because it makes you unclean. That's symbolic for 1089 01:20:10,840 --> 01:20:16,119 moral death and spiritual death. And so Christ in the Eucharist is giving us 1090 01:20:16,159 --> 01:20:18,760 his blood. That is not the blood of a dead man. It's not 1091 01:20:18,800 --> 01:20:24,279 a human sacrifice. It is the deifying energies of the god Man. And 1092 01:20:24,319 --> 01:20:32,640 that's why the liturgy calls it the bloodless noetic sacrifice. Yeah, let's see, 1093 01:20:32,720 --> 01:20:40,600 all right. Next question is from Axios five pounds appreciate the support he 1094 01:20:40,680 --> 01:20:44,479 has. How will we best explain the Orthodox position on statues? You CBS 1095 01:20:44,479 --> 01:20:47,760 and Ecclesiastical History book A chapter eighteen makes reference to an ancient statue of Christ. 1096 01:20:48,079 --> 01:20:50,520 The basic answer I will say is that, well, that statue is 1097 01:20:50,560 --> 01:20:54,479 out in public, right, so it's a it's a statue that's for decorative 1098 01:20:54,520 --> 01:20:58,680 purposes, So it's not a statue that is in the church. If we 1099 01:20:58,760 --> 01:21:01,560 don't have statues in churches ninety nine point nine percent of the time, because 1100 01:21:01,560 --> 01:21:06,520 statues are part of secular artistry. Iconography is the religious art of the church, 1101 01:21:06,520 --> 01:21:11,600 and that's that's why it's in churches. However, statues in public, 1102 01:21:12,680 --> 01:21:16,000 and as Eusebious is describing, my personal take on it is that I don't 1103 01:21:16,039 --> 01:21:20,520 see it as a problem. I think it's just a showcasing of Christian artistry 1104 01:21:20,520 --> 01:21:26,000 in public, but it is not like it's an icon That's basically what I 1105 01:21:26,039 --> 01:21:30,239 will say, though I will still I guess I will venerate, but there's 1106 01:21:30,279 --> 01:21:34,600 I think we still need to distinguish between religious art that is iconography that the 1107 01:21:34,680 --> 01:21:41,199 church possesses and kind of the secular modes of art that people use in order 1108 01:21:41,239 --> 01:21:50,279 to make images and pictures of Christ within that context. Anything you'd like to 1109 01:21:50,319 --> 01:21:54,039 add on, No, I mean I think that's you stated it really well. 1110 01:21:54,119 --> 01:22:00,920 Yeah, I mean icons are liturgical, so they teach theology and have 1111 01:22:00,920 --> 01:22:02,920 a place within the liturgy and the Seventh Council, and you know, the 1112 01:22:03,199 --> 01:22:10,520 icon councils distinguished that from like David said, you know, secular art. 1113 01:22:10,640 --> 01:22:14,439 So you know, if you think about like Renaissance art styles and all that. 1114 01:22:14,760 --> 01:22:17,319 Now, I don't really have a problem with all that stuff. It's 1115 01:22:17,359 --> 01:22:21,920 just that that's different than what's in the liturgy, and that's the big that's 1116 01:22:21,920 --> 01:22:25,520 the big issue here. So people want to make statues. I don't think 1117 01:22:25,560 --> 01:22:30,479 there's anything wrong with that. Constant four. Thank you for the five pound 1118 01:22:30,680 --> 01:22:34,039 super chat, he says, Jay must of the friend watched your Rashid debate, 1119 01:22:34,199 --> 01:22:39,479 found you compelling and a fallacious, amazing work. He's more receptive towards 1120 01:22:39,479 --> 01:22:43,880 the docent trinity, now, right, that's that was definitely one of the 1121 01:22:44,000 --> 01:22:48,000 that's great. Thank you. Yeah, I never know how people are receiving 1122 01:22:48,000 --> 01:22:51,840 those debates, because that one got really kind of high level, you know, 1123 01:22:51,920 --> 01:22:57,359 metaphysics, So I don't I don't know, I never know how how 1124 01:22:57,399 --> 01:23:00,680 well that is translating to the audience. But I'm glad to hear that. 1125 01:23:01,800 --> 01:23:05,279 Yeah, and I and I will definitely say right. Like those kinds of 1126 01:23:05,319 --> 01:23:09,319 debates, I think they definitely. One of the things that I notice in 1127 01:23:09,359 --> 01:23:12,239 the aftermath of that debate is that a lot of people are starting the question 1128 01:23:12,319 --> 01:23:15,239 specifics in Islamic Theolgravitch. No one did it before, right. So one 1129 01:23:15,279 --> 01:23:17,640 of the things that recently occurred, not recently, but a year ago, 1130 01:23:18,279 --> 01:23:23,039 was about, well, what is the relationship between Allah and his properties? 1131 01:23:23,119 --> 01:23:26,880 Right? Because the whole argument against the trinity that a lot of Muslims use 1132 01:23:27,399 --> 01:23:32,560 is predicated on on the idea that there's just God and you can't have anything 1133 01:23:32,640 --> 01:23:36,840 coeternal ven Him. And you know, if you do that, then you 1134 01:23:36,960 --> 01:23:41,600 just do simple counting, simple mathematics. And that's the argument that they use. 1135 01:23:41,720 --> 01:23:45,880 But the you know, the the names of Allah that refer to properties, 1136 01:23:46,079 --> 01:23:50,479 are they distinct or they not distinct? Now, most Sunni Muslim sects, 1137 01:23:50,720 --> 01:23:56,800 and that is Akida's creeds. Rather they will say actually, yes, 1138 01:23:56,840 --> 01:24:01,159 they're distinct. But then that completely undermines their whole argument against the trinity, 1139 01:24:01,159 --> 01:24:06,239 because they themselves admit that there are distinct things from God that are divine, 1140 01:24:06,399 --> 01:24:10,479 that are coeternal with him, that exists with him, and are distinct with 1141 01:24:10,600 --> 01:24:14,479 him, so usually count those two. So there's basically a hundred all loss 1142 01:24:14,880 --> 01:24:18,239 by that logic. Right. So a lot of their arguments are based on 1143 01:24:19,239 --> 01:24:26,079 like very simplistic understandings of theology, and once you think about it a little 1144 01:24:26,119 --> 01:24:29,960 bit, it starts to it all starts to crumble, and it all ends 1145 01:24:30,000 --> 01:24:34,920 up degenerating into a low IQ discourse. Like like one of the arguments that 1146 01:24:34,960 --> 01:24:40,279 people still point out, it's like, how was how did Christ? How 1147 01:24:40,359 --> 01:24:43,840 was Christ born of the Virgin Mary? Event? And how did Christ do 1148 01:24:44,119 --> 01:24:48,079 natural defecation? And stuff that doesn't make any sense to me kind of arguments. 1149 01:24:48,119 --> 01:24:53,000 Then just one look at the whole theology of original sin Orthodox It can't 1150 01:24:53,000 --> 01:24:55,840 have answers as a questions. Already Christ did not have original sins, so 1151 01:24:55,960 --> 01:25:00,239 all of these things you're talking about that he didn't have those things, right, 1152 01:25:00,880 --> 01:25:05,119 you know. So that's basically how I will look at it. Max 1153 01:25:05,159 --> 01:25:09,640 the Confessor of five Dollars super chat appreciate it. He says, why there's 1154 01:25:09,640 --> 01:25:14,319 so many triteist in the Storian and monozzolat tendencies in Protestantism. They try to 1155 01:25:14,359 --> 01:25:18,119 explain everything from Villa. I kind of don't answer yet that last point, 1156 01:25:18,159 --> 01:25:29,800 but pology answered this question good. Yeah. I think that the Protestant tendencies 1157 01:25:30,119 --> 01:25:34,640 are what they are because they don't really have a coherent theology of the Trinity 1158 01:25:34,720 --> 01:25:41,560 or Christology, so they just kind of go with, you know, cliches 1159 01:25:41,680 --> 01:25:45,359 or things that they think sound good, or things that they think the Bible's 1160 01:25:45,399 --> 01:25:48,279 teaching, and a lot of times they don't know, you know, what 1161 01:25:48,439 --> 01:25:54,520 mistakes they're making. But it's just basically that, you know, Protestantism comes 1162 01:25:54,520 --> 01:26:00,239 out of a you know, it's it's basically Augustinian Roman Catholicism that's kind of 1163 01:26:00,319 --> 01:26:08,520 purified of Roman Catholic trappings. So it's going to fall into the dialectical tendencies 1164 01:26:08,640 --> 01:26:18,239 that a strict Augustinian theology contained. Yeah, I think it is as you 1165 01:26:18,279 --> 01:26:24,520 said. I think one thing I noticed when I first became Orthodox was that 1166 01:26:24,600 --> 01:26:31,479 there was a very heavy emphasis on correct Trinitarian and Christological theology. Right, 1167 01:26:31,520 --> 01:26:36,039 there's a very very heavy emphasis on that. And I don't have experience in 1168 01:26:36,079 --> 01:26:39,640 protestantstems, so I don't know how it is there. But in Nortstocks, 1169 01:26:39,680 --> 01:26:43,239 even I listened to the liturgy, when I listened to certain specific terms, 1170 01:26:43,279 --> 01:26:45,600 like you know, the hymn of Saint Justinian, only begone son in the 1171 01:26:45,600 --> 01:26:47,760 world of God, I kind of just thought of it as well, why 1172 01:26:47,760 --> 01:26:50,119 are they, like, what's the point of saying this? This is kind 1173 01:26:50,159 --> 01:26:54,840 of just I guess, I guess it's cool or whatever, But you realize 1174 01:26:54,880 --> 01:27:00,279 that actually there's there are very good reasons why these concepts in terms of using 1175 01:27:00,319 --> 01:27:03,520 the liturgy over and over again so that people can know about um these basic 1176 01:27:03,600 --> 01:27:09,079 fundamental things. Right. So, one thing I noticed, especially in Calvinism, 1177 01:27:09,279 --> 01:27:13,479 is that their monergism, which is the which is basically the idea that 1178 01:27:13,560 --> 01:27:16,800 salvation is affected is effective only by the divine will. Right, it doesn't. 1179 01:27:16,800 --> 01:27:19,319 It's not a synergy, but it's just only the divine wills. Only 1180 01:27:19,319 --> 01:27:23,960 God saves. And it's it's this choice and the choice of man doesn't matter 1181 01:27:24,760 --> 01:27:29,600 that really affects the christology because then well, the whole incarnation and the work 1182 01:27:29,640 --> 01:27:32,680 of the incarnation that Christ did, that is a part of the solveific work. 1183 01:27:32,760 --> 01:27:36,119 Now you can't say then that there are two bills in Christ one divine, 1184 01:27:36,159 --> 01:27:39,960 one human, because if you said such a thing, then you will 1185 01:27:40,000 --> 01:27:45,159 be attributing attributing humanity a part of the work of salvation that is exclusive to 1186 01:27:45,199 --> 01:27:48,800 God alone in the Calvinist system, right, So there's I think there's in 1187 01:27:49,159 --> 01:27:54,159 orthodoxy, you start with the trinitarian theology, right, you start with God 1188 01:27:54,560 --> 01:27:58,399 and that that's what where you get the outworking of the rest of the things, 1189 01:27:58,520 --> 01:28:02,640 right with sacraments toology in Protestants submits the other day around. So it's 1190 01:28:02,720 --> 01:28:06,560 it's just like specific Bible verses and it picts of theology off of that, 1191 01:28:06,680 --> 01:28:10,680 and then they do try to Tranto and theeology that kind of makes sense with 1192 01:28:10,760 --> 01:28:14,119 that in Christology and so and so forth. And this is I think the 1193 01:28:14,199 --> 01:28:18,600 source of a lot of the Nestorian when not to lie triteistic and other interpretations 1194 01:28:18,600 --> 01:28:25,279 and understandings in that exist in various forms of Protestantism. Aside from that, 1195 01:28:25,399 --> 01:28:30,479 it also I think it stems from just kind of a lack of knowledge about 1196 01:28:30,640 --> 01:28:35,119 church disputes, because that really helps you to come to understand what's the correct 1197 01:28:35,159 --> 01:28:39,319 way to look at it, and kind of just like a d emphasis on 1198 01:28:39,359 --> 01:28:42,840 the theological look on the Bible aside from oh, you know, how can 1199 01:28:42,880 --> 01:28:45,399 we prove that Jesus is God in the Bible? Right? Like there's that 1200 01:28:45,520 --> 01:28:48,479 focus, but aside from that is not that much of a much of a 1201 01:28:48,520 --> 01:28:53,560 focus on that point. It Would you agree with that or do you have 1202 01:28:53,560 --> 01:28:57,680 anything else to add in regards to that? Yeah? I think that you 1203 01:28:57,720 --> 01:29:02,880 know, Calvinism starts as theology with predestination and the divine decree, so that's 1204 01:29:03,000 --> 01:29:08,239 gonna condition the rest of the theology to be determined by will. So that's 1205 01:29:08,239 --> 01:29:13,000 probably what you're talking about here, and it doesn't give a place to secondary 1206 01:29:13,079 --> 01:29:16,720 causes, to creatures having their own will and energy. Um. Yeah, 1207 01:29:16,760 --> 01:29:25,760 that's that's that's it. Um a question someone had in the light chat. 1208 01:29:25,840 --> 01:29:28,439 I think, yeah, it's pretty much We've pretty much been true whole at 1209 01:29:28,439 --> 01:29:31,560 the superchat questions as they as they came. But one thing I did prom 1210 01:29:31,720 --> 01:29:38,439 because I did promise him, is that have you seen the um what was 1211 01:29:38,479 --> 01:29:45,399 that that the icon Zelenski gave to Pope Francis that had like instead of having 1212 01:29:45,479 --> 01:29:49,640 Christ, it had just like a blank screen like it's an unlockable character or 1213 01:29:49,680 --> 01:29:55,680 something like that. Yeah, Like, well, what was that whole whole 1214 01:29:55,720 --> 01:30:00,159 thing about well, you know, supposedly it was to symbolize the lives of 1215 01:30:00,239 --> 01:30:05,039 children that were lost. Uh, I don't know, but yeah, I 1216 01:30:05,079 --> 01:30:10,479 think that it also seemed to be maybe even on a deeper level, true 1217 01:30:10,520 --> 01:30:15,720 symbolic of the fact that you know, that regime and that that whole expression 1218 01:30:15,760 --> 01:30:20,199 has essentially lost and doesn't believe in Christ. I mean, if you watch 1219 01:30:20,239 --> 01:30:25,640 Father McHale's video last night, he talks about how they're already using the Phillyoaquay 1220 01:30:25,960 --> 01:30:30,560 right, the the so called fake Orthodox Church there's residing in Philly Oakua. 1221 01:30:30,439 --> 01:30:35,319 Uh, they are, um, you know, they're already engaged into Cumanist 1222 01:30:35,359 --> 01:30:40,920 activities. So I mean, I think that's a fitting symbol. Yeah, 1223 01:30:40,960 --> 01:30:45,439 we don't, we don't want Christ anymore. Yeah, I think that that's 1224 01:30:45,479 --> 01:30:53,119 that like my general take on this situation as well as that because I want 1225 01:30:53,159 --> 01:30:56,960 to make it clear, like it's not because I I'm afraid that I might 1226 01:30:56,960 --> 01:31:00,560 be interpreted that I generally like, I'm not like pro Russian in this whole 1227 01:31:00,760 --> 01:31:04,760 situation that's going on, because I think there's some issues that Russian needs to 1228 01:31:04,800 --> 01:31:09,359 solve, and in both in regards to this issue and both in regards to 1229 01:31:09,359 --> 01:31:13,399 the Church what it is doing, particularly in Africa, even though you know 1230 01:31:13,439 --> 01:31:15,840 there's there's no OCE debates in regards to that, but you know, I 1231 01:31:15,880 --> 01:31:19,600 still think they're wrong in that regard what Russia is doing in certain geopolitical senses. 1232 01:31:20,760 --> 01:31:24,479 It's not all of it is something that I will completely back, but 1233 01:31:24,840 --> 01:31:28,880 one thing I can definitely say without feeling any shame, is that I think 1234 01:31:29,000 --> 01:31:35,159 Ukraine as a country as it is led right now right is definitely wrong in 1235 01:31:35,359 --> 01:31:40,159 multiple levels, in geopolitical levels and religious levels, and I think there definitely 1236 01:31:40,199 --> 01:31:43,720 needs to be a change in regards to that. How that change of cures 1237 01:31:43,840 --> 01:31:46,399 I don't know, but there definitely needs to be something that needs to happen 1238 01:31:46,880 --> 01:31:51,199 that that fixes that basically the problem that they have, because I mean, 1239 01:31:51,520 --> 01:31:55,920 it's, as I said, like it's it's it looks like an iconon it's 1240 01:31:56,000 --> 01:31:58,720 literally a corruption, right, it's like a demand of corruption. It looks 1241 01:31:58,760 --> 01:32:02,920 like an iconography. It's opposed to be an icon but it inserts earthly teams 1242 01:32:02,960 --> 01:32:05,560 into it, which I guess you can kind of it can be cute about 1243 01:32:05,560 --> 01:32:11,840 it, but it does so at the expense of Christ. It takes the 1244 01:32:11,880 --> 01:32:16,399 focus away from Christ and it puts it into something else, and that whole, 1245 01:32:16,840 --> 01:32:21,359 that whole thing, that whole idea itself is I will say, fundamentally 1246 01:32:23,279 --> 01:32:29,319 fundamentally demonic. And I think you know that there are certain activities, spiritual 1247 01:32:29,359 --> 01:32:36,560 activities that are certainly helping or guiding the leadership of Ukraine. I will definitely 1248 01:32:36,600 --> 01:32:40,399 say, especially with what happened with the whole Key of Love or situation, 1249 01:32:40,439 --> 01:32:45,760 it's absolutely absolutely disgusting, especially in light of the fact that the Ukraine or 1250 01:32:45,880 --> 01:32:49,359 the Orthodox Church in Ukraine, led by Metropolunifrid, everything they can to distance 1251 01:32:49,399 --> 01:32:53,800 themselves from Russia, from the Russian Church, and it still happens. So 1252 01:32:53,840 --> 01:32:57,199 it goes to show that what their real intention is, and it is to 1253 01:32:57,399 --> 01:33:04,720 destroy godleness and order. Basically, Joshua asked to tell a super chat appreciate. 1254 01:33:04,800 --> 01:33:09,560 He asked, why don't you like ancient Fate radio. It's because they 1255 01:33:09,640 --> 01:33:16,479 had They promote certain completely heterodox things, and they don't do anything about anything 1256 01:33:16,479 --> 01:33:21,359 to fix They are too lukewarm. That's the basics that I will say, 1257 01:33:21,399 --> 01:33:26,399 is that they're basically way to lukewarm. There's some good content there and then 1258 01:33:26,439 --> 01:33:30,039 there's some absolutely horrendous content that no one should look at. And I think 1259 01:33:30,279 --> 01:33:33,760 they really try to appeal to They really try to make orthodoxy like appeal to 1260 01:33:33,840 --> 01:33:39,279 normalis, which in a sense, okay, that's cool if you can do 1261 01:33:39,319 --> 01:33:43,800 it in terms of packaging. But they when they mix certain doctrines into that 1262 01:33:43,920 --> 01:33:45,680 normal packaging, I think that's the big problem. And then they have a 1263 01:33:45,760 --> 01:33:49,359 huge tendency to do something like that. So those are my basic reasons, 1264 01:33:49,600 --> 01:33:55,039 right. Yeah, they've been pushing for a long time all kinds of water 1265 01:33:55,159 --> 01:33:59,760 down heterodox ideas, you know, promoting authors that are pushing for women pre 1266 01:34:00,279 --> 01:34:09,319 I mean promoting authors that you know, attend a Roshan events, Skittles events. 1267 01:34:09,359 --> 01:34:15,119 I mean that just should be obvious too if you're familiar with what they 1268 01:34:15,319 --> 01:34:17,560 what they push. I mean they've been doing it for like twenty years. 1269 01:34:17,560 --> 01:34:24,680 So yeah, we already have videos and streams talking about this, specifically Marked 1270 01:34:24,680 --> 01:34:27,920 with the twenty big twenty dollars super chat. Appreciate it, Mark, He 1271 01:34:27,960 --> 01:34:30,239 says, love both of your works. Will love to see you both in 1272 01:34:30,319 --> 01:34:33,479 tract more of these Protestant pop apologists, But Sally, I don't think they're 1273 01:34:33,560 --> 01:34:36,520 very interested, will be and you will be in over their heads. I 1274 01:34:36,600 --> 01:34:44,439 mean, I have people so Transhorn made the tweet saying that they should do 1275 01:34:44,479 --> 01:34:48,279 a round table between an Orthodox and Roman Catholic and a Protestant icon veneration, 1276 01:34:48,319 --> 01:34:53,520 and I'm the icon veneration guy. He suggests to create truly, which I 1277 01:34:53,520 --> 01:34:56,359 guess you can do that too, But to my knowledge, that didn't happen. 1278 01:34:56,479 --> 01:35:00,479 And the suggestion of having me appear since at that time it recently made 1279 01:35:00,520 --> 01:35:03,920 the video and icon veneration, right, it was all it was fresh, 1280 01:35:03,960 --> 01:35:08,199 and you know, the whole thing on this, the whole debate start because 1281 01:35:08,359 --> 01:35:12,119 of Ortland's video and icon veneration and so and so forth. A lot of 1282 01:35:12,119 --> 01:35:15,079 people actually suggested, I think it's even ratio the Transforms post. A lot 1283 01:35:15,119 --> 01:35:18,119 of people suggested that I shall appear and this shall happen and I shall be 1284 01:35:18,199 --> 01:35:21,520 on that, you know, And I didn't get any return from Trent. 1285 01:35:21,560 --> 01:35:26,680 I didn't get any return from Ortland, and I didn't think that round table 1286 01:35:26,680 --> 01:35:30,039 will happen even with Craig. I think not even with Craig. They're trying 1287 01:35:30,079 --> 01:35:32,199 to do this, So I think I think that goes to show. I 1288 01:35:32,199 --> 01:35:36,720 mean, I'm well, it's well for according to a lot of people. 1289 01:35:38,239 --> 01:35:41,159 I am a very bad person too, even though I don't think I've done 1290 01:35:41,159 --> 01:35:45,680 anything to justify it. And it works because with like normy people, that 1291 01:35:45,840 --> 01:35:49,119 kind of pushes them away from like looking at the material that I present. 1292 01:35:49,520 --> 01:35:56,760 Basically, So I think that is definitely cut part of smear campaign that is 1293 01:35:56,760 --> 01:35:59,439 an actual to YouTube people do it all the time, like the whole smearing 1294 01:35:59,439 --> 01:36:03,319 stuff to avoid people from engaging specific groups of people. I understand that. 1295 01:36:03,439 --> 01:36:06,520 So I don't think that's really going to happen anytime soon, not just with 1296 01:36:06,760 --> 01:36:11,960 icon veneration, but with basically anything, because frankly speaking, I think a 1297 01:36:11,960 --> 01:36:16,000 lot of Protestants are afraid of actual proper dialogue and they want dialogue in their 1298 01:36:16,159 --> 01:36:19,960 dialogue in their own terms. But once you enforce your own terms to other 1299 01:36:20,000 --> 01:36:25,359 people, that's not a dialogue. That's a monologue with h with just a 1300 01:36:25,399 --> 01:36:29,359 monologue or allowing the other person to speak at times they want him to speak 1301 01:36:29,359 --> 01:36:31,640 in certain ways that they want him to speak. So that's that's my generale 1302 01:36:31,720 --> 01:36:35,960 take on a lot of these Protestants, even Roman Catholic people, even some 1303 01:36:36,079 --> 01:36:40,760 Orthodox people. To be honest, right, it's I think the preferred method, 1304 01:36:41,199 --> 01:36:44,960 especially with people like us with you and I j is smear and then 1305 01:36:45,000 --> 01:36:47,039 push them away. These people are crazy, they don't they won't let you 1306 01:36:47,079 --> 01:36:51,079 speak. They're they're horrible people. Let them, you know, stay in 1307 01:36:51,119 --> 01:36:55,880 their echo chamber, which is ironic because we're the ones that want to talk, 1308 01:36:56,000 --> 01:36:58,119 right, we don't want to stay in. But yeah, it's just 1309 01:36:58,159 --> 01:37:00,079 an excuse. It's obvious that it's an ex use. I mean, there 1310 01:37:00,119 --> 01:37:06,880 was going to be a roundtable that Trent suggested a year ago on apologetic methodology, 1311 01:37:08,199 --> 01:37:11,920 and nobody wanted to do that. So I mean I did, and 1312 01:37:12,199 --> 01:37:15,880 like David saying he did, and uh, yeah, nobody. Nobody wants 1313 01:37:15,920 --> 01:37:19,840 to do that because they you know, it's just you know, I think 1314 01:37:19,880 --> 01:37:25,159 if if you're confident in your position, like you're not worried about having these 1315 01:37:25,239 --> 01:37:29,720 kinds of discussions, you're not worried about new information, you know, shaking 1316 01:37:29,720 --> 01:37:32,760 your paradigm or something like that. But I think that people that are not 1317 01:37:32,920 --> 01:37:38,760 confident in their positions or they're they're wavering, they're they're scared, they're afraid 1318 01:37:38,840 --> 01:37:42,720 that they'll end up looking bad or something like that, and so you know, 1319 01:37:42,760 --> 01:37:45,680 they consistently use the excuse of well they're mean. Well, the only 1320 01:37:45,720 --> 01:37:49,039 times that we've been quote mean is when you know, we have to deal 1321 01:37:49,119 --> 01:37:55,000 with actual, uh you know, subversive and ridiculous people who are malicious. 1322 01:37:55,439 --> 01:37:59,680 And so the fact that we deal with those people in a firm and also 1323 01:38:00,439 --> 01:38:04,520 satirical way is I think the proper way to handle these people. Now, 1324 01:38:04,640 --> 01:38:10,399 there have been past instances where on blood sports which were not formal debates, 1325 01:38:10,960 --> 01:38:14,279 it's just you know, people acting ridiculous on the internet. Yeah, so 1326 01:38:14,359 --> 01:38:16,640 what if I, you know, made fun of somebody in a in a 1327 01:38:16,720 --> 01:38:20,079 non formal debate, and then they take those examples and say, look, 1328 01:38:20,119 --> 01:38:23,680 all he does is yell at people, and that's not true. There's like 1329 01:38:24,119 --> 01:38:29,479 twenty debates where nobody's yelling at anybody. Everything's perfectly civil. But it should 1330 01:38:29,560 --> 01:38:32,199 be transparent that these are just excuses because they don't want to deal with the 1331 01:38:32,239 --> 01:38:38,039 people that would probably present the best case and so you know they're gonna they 1332 01:38:38,119 --> 01:38:43,680 want to stay in a little bubble of people like Cameron from cuting Christianity or 1333 01:38:43,720 --> 01:38:47,680 whatever. Yeah. One thing I want to adv it like this is this 1334 01:38:47,760 --> 01:38:53,199 is a general principle that I just generally apply to things like interactions online and 1335 01:38:53,560 --> 01:38:56,880 things and it's kind of like a it's based on my experience, and it's 1336 01:38:56,880 --> 01:39:00,159 a self it's a respecting self. Respect and respect about this kind of thing. 1337 01:39:00,039 --> 01:39:03,479 I typically, even if they want to debate me, I don't engage 1338 01:39:03,520 --> 01:39:08,479 with people who unjustifiably smear me and attack me, because why would I want 1339 01:39:08,479 --> 01:39:11,319 to give these people platform? Why would I want to legitimize If you're going 1340 01:39:11,359 --> 01:39:14,159 to do something like that and you want to have me all, you better 1341 01:39:14,319 --> 01:39:16,880 make it work for me. So maybe if you have a decent audience and 1342 01:39:17,119 --> 01:39:21,520 allow me to speak to a lot of people, maybe okay, I'll let 1343 01:39:21,560 --> 01:39:26,279 that slide. But that's kind of the way I look at things because I 1344 01:39:26,319 --> 01:39:28,920 think it's just a smart way to look at it, because at the end 1345 01:39:28,920 --> 01:39:32,920 of the day, I don't want to legitimize people attacking my personal life or 1346 01:39:32,960 --> 01:39:38,720 attacking me as a person, or making up lies about me. It's just 1347 01:39:39,159 --> 01:39:41,840 I don't want to legitimize such a thing. And I think that's just a 1348 01:39:42,119 --> 01:39:45,239 natural thing to do. But and I understand why, Like you know, 1349 01:39:45,359 --> 01:39:47,359 people like Ubara, they might not they might want to stay away from me 1350 01:39:47,399 --> 01:39:53,039 for the same reason. That's fair enough, right, But you know, 1351 01:39:53,199 --> 01:39:55,640 that's that's just kind of like a principal thing, at least for me. 1352 01:39:55,680 --> 01:39:59,840 So I want to note that before I move on to the five Dollars to 1353 01:40:00,039 --> 01:40:02,560 chat from Max and By Jay has a different style, He has different you 1354 01:40:02,600 --> 01:40:06,119 know, he views these things differently because we're different people in regards to kind 1355 01:40:06,119 --> 01:40:10,319 of like have you look at debate challenges and stuff like that as well? 1356 01:40:10,520 --> 01:40:15,239 So, um, that's something that I will, I guess we'll like to 1357 01:40:15,279 --> 01:40:18,039 note as well. Max the Confessor five dollars super chat um, he has 1358 01:40:18,079 --> 01:40:23,800 been reading Bootius beautiful poems. Any good Orthodox commentaries on him? I don't 1359 01:40:23,840 --> 01:40:28,840 think there are any, Um, I mean I have one of his books. 1360 01:40:28,840 --> 01:40:31,640 I don't know about commentaries. Yeah, I think I think with boti 1361 01:40:31,760 --> 01:40:35,720 Is it's like I mean, isn't he's the one. It will be kind 1362 01:40:35,760 --> 01:40:39,560 of like a commentary of a commentary. But I guess if you're asking kind 1363 01:40:39,600 --> 01:40:45,880 of like the Orthodox take on Bois, I always confuse Boots Saints Bede, 1364 01:40:46,159 --> 01:40:51,960 I always confuse them. But he wrote consolations of philosophy, and so he's 1365 01:40:53,000 --> 01:41:00,239 you know, basically an attempting and sent this between Augustinian theology and other you 1366 01:41:00,279 --> 01:41:04,319 know, Aristotle, other theological or philosophical traditions, and so I mean he 1367 01:41:04,680 --> 01:41:08,800 is I think a saying in the Orthodox Church. But yeah, I think, 1368 01:41:09,000 --> 01:41:15,760 I mean he's I don't know about commentaries. Yeah, uh yeah he 1369 01:41:15,880 --> 01:41:18,279 is. He's he is a saint in the Orthodox Church, right, that 1370 01:41:18,399 --> 01:41:23,239 is true? So yeah, I'm I'm afraid of You're not going to be 1371 01:41:23,239 --> 01:41:26,880 able to help you on that front, uh, Max, But appreciate the 1372 01:41:27,039 --> 01:41:32,760 five dollars super chat um. Let's see what other people are saying. Well, 1373 01:41:32,760 --> 01:41:36,359 I guess I could kind of. I mean, this was I didn't 1374 01:41:36,399 --> 01:41:40,239 I did not expect a lot of people to kind of support So I'm kind 1375 01:41:40,239 --> 01:41:42,560 of like, I'm kind of shocked. But at the end of the day, 1376 01:41:42,600 --> 01:41:46,359 I mean, it's it's it's very cool to see this. One thing 1377 01:41:46,399 --> 01:41:51,119 I kind of wants to ask you, Jay, and and I could answer 1378 01:41:51,119 --> 01:41:54,840 this question before you answer, It's like, what was it saying that made 1379 01:41:54,920 --> 01:41:59,000 you like not a not something in Orthodoxy that made you say, oh, 1380 01:41:59,039 --> 01:42:01,119 I think this is wrong because of a rational reason. But what made you 1381 01:42:01,159 --> 01:42:05,159 like ikey? Because from me, and this might sound really strange because I'm 1382 01:42:05,199 --> 01:42:09,800 like, I'm the icon veneration guy at these these days from the Orthodox camp. 1383 01:42:10,600 --> 01:42:15,800 But icon veneration was kind of strange to me when I first became ortodox. 1384 01:42:15,880 --> 01:42:18,520 I kind of looked at it and it's like, how is this not 1385 01:42:18,640 --> 01:42:21,560 like this kind of this kind of looks suspicious, but I guess I'll do 1386 01:42:21,600 --> 01:42:25,359 it kind of a thing. But like stuff like that, right, like 1387 01:42:25,439 --> 01:42:29,359 not something that's like rational like ration, like you're opposed because of some rational 1388 01:42:29,399 --> 01:42:31,560 reason. But right is something that you that it took some time for you 1389 01:42:31,640 --> 01:42:33,760 to get used to, because I think a lot of people have that, 1390 01:42:33,840 --> 01:42:38,319 and it's very normal because a lot of people are not used to ortodox Christianity. 1391 01:42:42,560 --> 01:42:49,960 Um, you know, my path to Orthodoxy was different, so it 1392 01:42:50,119 --> 01:42:55,960 wasn't It wasn't really like that where I had to adjust to things that were 1393 01:42:55,960 --> 01:43:00,199 really odd. I think because I came from the world of Roman Catholicism, 1394 01:43:00,199 --> 01:43:08,239 it was different. So most things in Orthodoxy weren't that odd to me. 1395 01:43:08,359 --> 01:43:11,800 I'll say two things. So my when I was Protestant, the first time 1396 01:43:11,840 --> 01:43:15,319 I saw a relic, it was weird because in the Protestant world, you're 1397 01:43:15,359 --> 01:43:17,560 not used to that, and you kind of it kind of seems odd to 1398 01:43:17,640 --> 01:43:21,399 you. And the first Roman Calory church that I went to had a relic 1399 01:43:21,439 --> 01:43:26,760 of Saint Jerome, and I remember, you know, I was curious, 1400 01:43:26,800 --> 01:43:29,800 but I was also weirded out the first time I saw it. So that 1401 01:43:29,880 --> 01:43:32,319 was the thing that it will always stick in my mind. And then when 1402 01:43:32,319 --> 01:43:40,720 I became Orthodox, one thing that was unique that stuck out was getting used 1403 01:43:40,760 --> 01:43:46,159 to standing up in the services, and you know Russian Orthodox services, you're 1404 01:43:46,159 --> 01:43:51,039 going to be standing for two or three hours. So that was odd, 1405 01:43:51,079 --> 01:43:56,039 I mean, just because the last time that I'd gone to I mean, I