WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:09.480
This is not an update episode of
Frozen Truth. This is a thought experiment

2
00:00:10.279 --> 00:00:15.080
I guess dealing with our season four
case, the nineteen ninety six disappearance of

3
00:00:15.119 --> 00:00:19.839
Sandra and John Jacobson from Bismarck,
North Dakota. That's coming up next.

4
00:00:22.920 --> 00:00:27.199
I want to go over something that
bothers me a lot about the Sandra and

5
00:00:27.320 --> 00:00:31.879
John Jacobson disappearance. This is our
season four case of Frozen Truth. This

6
00:00:31.960 --> 00:00:36.640
week we passed the anniversary day to
the commemoration date of Sandra and John's disappearance

7
00:00:36.719 --> 00:00:42.359
November the sixteenth. The year was
nineteen ninety six, and we've covered the

8
00:00:42.399 --> 00:00:45.719
basics of the case so far earlier
in the year earlier in the season of

9
00:00:45.840 --> 00:00:50.679
season four Frozen Truth. Just for
a brief rereecap because it has been a

10
00:00:50.679 --> 00:00:55.600
while since we've released an episode.
Sandra and John lived in Center, North

11
00:00:55.679 --> 00:00:59.960
Dakota. Sandra was thirty six at
this time. John was five years old.

12
00:01:00.719 --> 00:01:03.599
That night before Sandra took John to
her parents' house, Sandra, as

13
00:01:03.640 --> 00:01:10.120
we've discussed earlier, had a history
of mental illness, and when she arrived

14
00:01:10.159 --> 00:01:14.200
at the house, her parents recognized
in her some of those symptoms, and

15
00:01:14.239 --> 00:01:19.280
so her parents who have since both
passed away, implored her to go to

16
00:01:19.319 --> 00:01:25.280
a hospital and they would watch John, and Sandra agreed, but she first

17
00:01:25.560 --> 00:01:29.560
insisted on going to get gas.
In some kind of a compromise. I

18
00:01:29.599 --> 00:01:32.480
guess her parents were thinking. They
allowed her to go get gas, not

19
00:01:32.560 --> 00:01:36.840
just her, but she took John
with her to go get gas. We've

20
00:01:36.840 --> 00:01:40.599
talked to the first investigator on this
case, Tim Turnbull of Bismarck Pete.

21
00:01:41.159 --> 00:01:44.599
He says they do ever a seat
of her going to a gas station to

22
00:01:44.599 --> 00:01:48.760
get gas. But then Sandra didn't
come home to the parents' house and so

23
00:01:49.079 --> 00:01:53.760
at about ten pm that night they
called police. This is fortuitous from the

24
00:01:53.760 --> 00:01:59.799
standpoint of most missing persons cases because
Sandra and John were both reported missing farce

25
00:02:00.239 --> 00:02:05.280
er than in your typical missing person's
case ten o'clock that same night, so

26
00:02:05.359 --> 00:02:09.080
police were aware that she was missing
along with a young child. Her car

27
00:02:09.280 --> 00:02:13.960
was not found until the next morning. It was found on the banks of

28
00:02:13.960 --> 00:02:16.639
the Missouri River, kind of a
boat launch area. It's not very far

29
00:02:16.680 --> 00:02:21.479
off a highway. It's visible to
some homes in the area. And when

30
00:02:21.479 --> 00:02:24.199
the car was found, Sandra and
John are nowhere to be seen. They

31
00:02:24.240 --> 00:02:30.240
search the river. Eventually they find
a shoe that they believe belonged to John,

32
00:02:30.560 --> 00:02:34.439
so a child size shoe, and
when they go about searching the car,

33
00:02:34.520 --> 00:02:39.400
they find some of Sandra's belongings on
the passenger side seat. You can

34
00:02:39.439 --> 00:02:44.439
go back and listen to Detective Turnbull's
description of the car when he went through

35
00:02:44.479 --> 00:02:49.280
it on that day in ninety six. I'll tell you what bothers me most

36
00:02:49.319 --> 00:02:55.879
about this case so far. They
found the driver's side door open, not

37
00:02:57.039 --> 00:03:01.120
open as in unlocked. It was
left, and that's always bothered me from

38
00:03:01.120 --> 00:03:05.680
the moment I read that detail about
this case before we even talked to Tim

39
00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:09.000
Turnbull, Because first of all,
that car was sitting there, presumably all

40
00:03:09.080 --> 00:03:13.080
night, and it was dark after
she left. It would have been dark

41
00:03:13.080 --> 00:03:15.080
in November, but there are roadways
and there are homes, and nobody called

42
00:03:15.080 --> 00:03:21.120
that car in. The police actually
stumbled upon it the next day. But

43
00:03:21.159 --> 00:03:24.240
the more I think about the door, the more bothered I become, because

44
00:03:24.319 --> 00:03:30.360
I can't make the door make sense. There are only three basic scenarios of

45
00:03:30.479 --> 00:03:32.840
what could have happened to Sandra and
John based on where the car was.

46
00:03:34.439 --> 00:03:38.560
Scenario one is Sandra put the car
there. Detective Turnbull's theory of basically murder

47
00:03:38.639 --> 00:03:44.599
suicide, that Sandra killed her son
and herself via drowning in the Missouri River

48
00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:47.560
and that explained to the car being
there. Scenario two would be Sandra put

49
00:03:47.560 --> 00:03:51.439
the car where it was found,
but there's a third party involved at that

50
00:03:51.560 --> 00:03:55.360
spot. Scenario three would be something
happened to Sandra and John elsewhere and a

51
00:03:55.479 --> 00:04:00.000
third party put the car where it
was found. It's the only three possibility

52
00:04:00.240 --> 00:04:02.000
for generally how the car could have
been found there. A big problem with

53
00:04:02.039 --> 00:04:05.319
this case, especially so many years
later, is there is no evidence of

54
00:04:05.319 --> 00:04:10.000
a crime having occurred, minus the
shoe that was found. So just the

55
00:04:10.039 --> 00:04:14.159
abnormality of the shoe if it was
John's being found, and also the car

56
00:04:14.199 --> 00:04:17.319
being there and her stuff being there
and both of them not being there.

57
00:04:17.839 --> 00:04:21.959
But very importantly, there's no blood. There is no indication of a struggle,

58
00:04:23.000 --> 00:04:28.000
there's no indication that anything happened exactly. And so then you apply Ockham's

59
00:04:28.079 --> 00:04:30.399
razoring. You say, all right, here's Sandra's car, John's missing,

60
00:04:30.480 --> 00:04:35.240
Sandra's missing. There's a raging Missouri
river right here where the car was parked.

61
00:04:35.480 --> 00:04:39.839
Sandra parked the car here, walked
into the river and drowned John.

62
00:04:40.360 --> 00:04:44.560
And that assumption is bolstered a little
bit when they find John's shoe what they

63
00:04:44.560 --> 00:04:47.319
believe is John shoe and the river
on the search the next day. I'm

64
00:04:47.360 --> 00:04:50.839
not certainly going to argue with that
that's the supposition of Tim Turnbull, the

65
00:04:50.920 --> 00:04:57.920
detective on the case. But I'm
also not going to inherently assume it necessarily

66
00:04:58.480 --> 00:05:01.040
because we'reth this crossroads, you know, and it's fine to go down any

67
00:05:01.079 --> 00:05:04.000
of the three trails that you want
to explore as long as you can find

68
00:05:04.040 --> 00:05:08.319
your way back if you don't find
any evidence. So we're standing at this

69
00:05:08.439 --> 00:05:13.160
crossroads and I'm looking and metaphorically and
what I'm looking at as a sign as

70
00:05:13.160 --> 00:05:16.480
a guidepost for our three trails is
the thing that bothers me most about this

71
00:05:16.519 --> 00:05:21.519
case. Actually, earlier this week, I couldn't sleep because of this detail.

72
00:05:21.800 --> 00:05:26.360
That is the door of the car, the driver's side door is found

73
00:05:26.480 --> 00:05:31.600
open. Now, really really think
about that. I've said before, the

74
00:05:31.639 --> 00:05:35.240
detective Turnbull may well be right about
what he assumes to have been the outcome

75
00:05:35.279 --> 00:05:39.279
of this case. And he does
an outright say this is what happened.

76
00:05:39.360 --> 00:05:44.319
It's just his assumption so many years
later in absence of anything else. But

77
00:05:44.399 --> 00:05:47.839
let's go with that trail for a
moment. Sandra parked the car, got

78
00:05:47.920 --> 00:05:53.040
John out of the car, drown
him. Essentially, what is the scene

79
00:05:53.120 --> 00:05:57.639
saying in reference to the outcome?
How can you look at the scene and

80
00:05:57.720 --> 00:06:00.879
explain using what you can see,
maybe what you can see, how a

81
00:06:01.040 --> 00:06:05.199
hypothesis would have happened. Now,
let me just say this thought experiment takes

82
00:06:05.240 --> 00:06:09.519
you to a very very dark place, and if you don't want to participate,

83
00:06:09.560 --> 00:06:14.959
that's totally understandable. In the process
of trying to figure out seen from

84
00:06:14.959 --> 00:06:18.720
any of our cases, what might
have happened or what might else have happened

85
00:06:18.720 --> 00:06:24.160
that we haven't thought about and could
explore more. Theory A that Sandra and

86
00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:28.519
John entered the river because of Sandra, and that is how they died.

87
00:06:29.560 --> 00:06:32.399
First back up, too, we
know they got gas. So at what

88
00:06:32.519 --> 00:06:39.079
point along the way would this intent
have been formed in Sandra's mind? It

89
00:06:39.079 --> 00:06:43.399
would seem strange to me that if
that was your intent at your parents' house

90
00:06:43.480 --> 00:06:46.439
or before that, you would go
get gas, even if in her mind

91
00:06:46.519 --> 00:06:51.680
she is protecting her son, which
is the only way that this scenario makes

92
00:06:51.680 --> 00:06:57.120
sense. That Sandra was actually protecting
John from something, because remember the very

93
00:06:57.160 --> 00:07:01.360
bizarre twist in this case. Before
Sandra Jacobson arrived at her parents' house,

94
00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:06.439
she had called police in Bismarck to
report a cult activity in Center, North

95
00:07:06.519 --> 00:07:11.759
Dakota, presumably not being able to
trust the police in Center because they're involved

96
00:07:11.759 --> 00:07:15.959
in whatever this occultish conspiracy would have
been. She might be then attempting to

97
00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:21.079
protect John from the impending danger of
the cult. This is in Sandra's mind.

98
00:07:21.519 --> 00:07:27.959
But if that was the case at
any time before leaving her parents' house

99
00:07:27.959 --> 00:07:30.199
to go get gas, why would
you go get gas? It's not required

100
00:07:30.240 --> 00:07:34.399
for the protection of John in Sandra's
mind, In fact, you want to

101
00:07:34.399 --> 00:07:39.839
waste no time. The priority of
your child's safety would be first and foremost,

102
00:07:39.879 --> 00:07:44.360
even if it's just the perceived safety
of your child. And if you're

103
00:07:44.399 --> 00:07:47.439
taking some kind of evasive action on
a mission, as it were, to

104
00:07:47.600 --> 00:07:53.199
save your son, even if it
is by drowning him hypothetically, then why

105
00:07:53.240 --> 00:07:57.600
would you stop for gas? My
assumption then would be again, under this

106
00:07:57.639 --> 00:08:01.519
scenario, this is all just thought
experiment, It is all hypothetical. But

107
00:08:01.720 --> 00:08:05.800
under the assumption that Sandra did drown
herself and John. That intent would have

108
00:08:05.800 --> 00:08:09.639
been arrived at I think after she
got gas, which is kind of fascinating

109
00:08:09.639 --> 00:08:15.519
by itself. Something happened that she
saw outside the car, something happened inside

110
00:08:15.560 --> 00:08:20.279
her brain that she felt she had
to take that drastic action. It would

111
00:08:20.319 --> 00:08:24.000
seem to me that that intent would
have been arrived at before she parked the

112
00:08:24.040 --> 00:08:28.920
car, though, because otherwise,
why is she parked there? She is

113
00:08:28.920 --> 00:08:33.240
not acting as a person in danger
necessarily until she gets gas. What is

114
00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:37.840
her frame of mind after she fills
up the car with gas? Is she

115
00:08:37.960 --> 00:08:43.120
looking for this spot for whatever her
motivations are to save her son maybe in

116
00:08:43.200 --> 00:08:48.320
her mind? Or is it a
place that she sees opportunistically and decides this

117
00:08:48.399 --> 00:08:50.799
is the spot, this is where
I'll go. I don't see another reason

118
00:08:50.879 --> 00:08:56.159
for her to have pulled the car
to where it was found. So,

119
00:08:56.200 --> 00:09:00.720
if we do assume that this intent
of Sandra Jacobsen's under this scenario formed after

120
00:09:00.720 --> 00:09:05.720
the gas, it must have been
formed before she parked the car. If

121
00:09:05.720 --> 00:09:09.679
it is formed before she parked the
car, then she parked the car there

122
00:09:09.679 --> 00:09:13.720
with the purpose of doing what she
hypothetically would have done, then this is

123
00:09:13.720 --> 00:09:20.039
why the door bothers me so much. In actually every scenario, but especially

124
00:09:20.039 --> 00:09:24.080
this scenario, Sandra Jacobson is driving
the car, we can assume, but

125
00:09:24.159 --> 00:09:28.279
we also know where John is.
He's not in the front based on her

126
00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:31.799
items being found in the front.
That's where a purse was, That's where

127
00:09:31.799 --> 00:09:35.120
the receipt was. John's in one
of the two back seats. How does

128
00:09:35.120 --> 00:09:39.919
Sandra Jacobson remove herself from the car
removed John from the car with the driver's

129
00:09:39.919 --> 00:09:45.240
side door being left open. One
of the things we instinctually do all of

130
00:09:45.320 --> 00:09:50.759
us is closed car doors, because
we have done it ten twenty thousand times.

131
00:09:50.679 --> 00:09:58.120
The only exception of this would be
an extreme urgency, something that requires

132
00:09:58.759 --> 00:10:03.399
so much urgency that don't have time
to close the door as you otherwise would.

133
00:10:03.200 --> 00:10:07.720
Then, under this scenario where Sandra
Jacobson is intending to harm or in

134
00:10:07.799 --> 00:10:11.159
her mind maybe save John who is
in the back seat, you have to

135
00:10:11.159 --> 00:10:16.720
get him out of the car.
This could be accomplished in basically two ways.

136
00:10:16.320 --> 00:10:20.200
He can get himself out or you
can get him out. So does

137
00:10:20.279 --> 00:10:24.120
he open the door, get out
himself and close his door? And if

138
00:10:24.120 --> 00:10:30.200
so, why has not Sandra closed
her door? If he was apprehensive and

139
00:10:30.320 --> 00:10:33.120
reluctant to get out, and for
whatever reason Sandra had to forcibly get him

140
00:10:33.159 --> 00:10:39.240
out. That is the door that
should be open, or both of them

141
00:10:39.440 --> 00:10:43.240
should be open. In other words, Sandra parks the car, opens her

142
00:10:43.279 --> 00:10:46.919
door, leaves her door open,
opens his door to extract John from the

143
00:10:46.919 --> 00:10:50.320
back seat. He's struggling. That's
going to take up both of your hands.

144
00:10:50.840 --> 00:10:54.240
You would at least find his door
open because of the habitual closing the

145
00:10:54.279 --> 00:10:58.080
door. He could even see a
scenario where Sandra parks the car sort of

146
00:10:58.080 --> 00:11:01.960
in a rush, alarming John in
the back seat. She opens her door,

147
00:11:03.159 --> 00:11:07.720
slams up behind her, opens his, and then her energy is focused

148
00:11:07.720 --> 00:11:13.240
on extracting John from the car.
So the wrong door is open. The

149
00:11:13.320 --> 00:11:16.399
only other way around that is that
John was in the front seat, but

150
00:11:16.519 --> 00:11:20.159
her stuff is in the front seat, So why is he in the front

151
00:11:20.159 --> 00:11:22.159
seat as well? He's five,
He shouldn't have been running in the front

152
00:11:22.159 --> 00:11:26.519
seat anyway, of course he could
have been, but her stuff is in

153
00:11:26.600 --> 00:11:30.600
the front seat. Maybe she said
along the way, come up, sit

154
00:11:30.679 --> 00:11:33.799
by mom, because this intent had
been formed after the gas station, and

155
00:11:33.879 --> 00:11:39.720
she's concerned and wants to keep him
even closer maybe, And there are even

156
00:11:39.759 --> 00:11:46.000
worse scenarios that I've imagined that might
explain why only one door was opened.

157
00:11:46.039 --> 00:11:52.000
For example, both doors were initially
closed. Sandra's intents toward John becomes apparent

158
00:11:52.039 --> 00:11:56.879
to John and it scares him,
and he outruns her and tries to get

159
00:11:56.919 --> 00:12:01.360
back into the car using whatever doors
closest, which might be the driver's side

160
00:12:01.360 --> 00:12:03.600
door. He opens it, she's
able to get him away from the car.

161
00:12:05.399 --> 00:12:13.240
Possibly, This to me, is
the biggest lever of doubt in the

162
00:12:13.360 --> 00:12:16.600
sand Ran John Jacobson case. In
our season four case, that car door

163
00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:26.720
being opened opens up other possibilities.
That driver's side door being found open,

164
00:12:26.200 --> 00:12:31.759
I think is more easily explainable with
a third party being involved. Trouble is,

165
00:12:31.799 --> 00:12:35.039
there's no evidence of a third party
otherwise, and the door itself is

166
00:12:35.080 --> 00:12:39.559
not necessarily evidence of a third party. But then you keep going, and

167
00:12:39.720 --> 00:12:45.000
a third party being involved would also
explain why their bodies haven't been found in

168
00:12:45.039 --> 00:12:48.399
the Missouri River. One of the
things we have not done yet is a

169
00:12:48.480 --> 00:12:52.840
database of how many remains south downstream
of that point in the Missouri have been

170
00:12:52.840 --> 00:12:56.879
found, and try to see how
many of those have been identified and that's

171
00:12:56.879 --> 00:13:01.879
going to be over the course of
basically from then until now. Obviously something

172
00:13:01.919 --> 00:13:07.080
you hope police would have checked on. So there is no doubt that what

173
00:13:07.840 --> 00:13:15.159
Detective Turnbull has hypothesized happened could have
happened. That door bothers me a lot.

174
00:13:15.799 --> 00:13:18.240
I would love your thoughts and theories
on this. I'll put the email

175
00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:20.919
address in these show notes for this
episode. I'll put the email address in

176
00:13:20.960 --> 00:13:24.519
the show notes too for anybody who
might have information about this case or knows

177
00:13:24.519 --> 00:13:28.759
somebody who knows somebody about this case. I want to make sure that my

178
00:13:28.840 --> 00:13:31.759
contact info is available to anybody that
can use it. So thank you for

179
00:13:31.840 --> 00:13:33.960
listening, and we will talk again
soon