WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.000 --> 00:00:04.759 How'd you like to listen to dot net rocks with no ads? Easy? 2 00:00:05.320 --> 00:00:09.880 Become a patron For just five dollars a month you get access to a private 3 00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:14.359 RSS feed where all the shows have no ADS. Twenty dollars a month will 4 00:00:14.400 --> 00:00:18.800 get you that and a special dot net Rocks patron mug. Sign up now 5 00:00:18.839 --> 00:00:23.760 at Patreon dot dot net rocks dot com. Hey Carlin, Richard Here, 6 00:00:24.079 --> 00:00:29.280 as you may have heard, NDC is back offering their incredible in person conferences 7 00:00:29.320 --> 00:00:33.240 around the world, and we'd like to tell you about them. NDC Oslow 8 00:00:33.240 --> 00:00:37.039 will be made twenty first through the twenty fifth. Go to NDC Oslo dot 9 00:00:37.119 --> 00:00:42.759 com to register. NDC Copenhagen is happening August twenty seventh through the thirty first. 10 00:00:43.320 --> 00:00:48.960 Go to NDC Copenhagen dot com for more information. NDC Porto is happening 11 00:00:49.000 --> 00:00:53.280 October sixteenth through the twentieth. The early bird discount for DC Porto ends July 12 00:00:53.560 --> 00:00:58.280 twenty first. Go to Eddcporto dot com to register and check out the full 13 00:00:58.320 --> 00:01:15.120 lineup of conferences at DC conferences dot com. Hey, welcome back to dot 14 00:01:15.200 --> 00:01:19.599 net and Rocks. This is Carl Franklin and this is Richard camp in our 15 00:01:19.640 --> 00:01:25.079 respective hiding holes for the moment, at least, trying to bear this crazy 16 00:01:25.159 --> 00:01:27.120 winter that finally showed up. Would you get a cold one too, dude? 17 00:01:27.159 --> 00:01:30.920 Oh yeah, we had a We had a cold snap hair nice and 18 00:01:30.040 --> 00:01:34.159 it's just coming out of it now. We got a foot and a half 19 00:01:34.159 --> 00:01:37.159 of snow overnight. You're crazy. I know, what do you guys do 20 00:01:37.239 --> 00:01:41.280 in snow? You don't have snow. We don't have snow. No, 21 00:01:41.799 --> 00:01:44.280 No, you have rain. You know. We got out there, We 22 00:01:44.319 --> 00:01:47.120 got out there and shoveled. Yeah, that would have been a perfectly fine 23 00:01:47.239 --> 00:01:49.439 evening rainfall, but nope, it turned into white stuff and stuck. So 24 00:01:49.519 --> 00:01:53.680 you actually have snow shovels. They sell them. Oh yeah, are their 25 00:01:53.799 --> 00:01:57.359 plows? Yeah, not very many. No, it took it took twenty 26 00:01:57.359 --> 00:02:00.319 four hours for the cold decide to get blowed. It's funny. The West 27 00:02:00.359 --> 00:02:05.640 coast and the south typically of you know, of North America don't typically get 28 00:02:05.680 --> 00:02:08.520 snow, and they're they're like, what is this. I was in Pasadena 29 00:02:08.560 --> 00:02:13.000 when it held on them earlier this week and everyone was just in shocky. 30 00:02:13.439 --> 00:02:16.960 Whoa what was that sound? Oh that was Brian Foster. I'm sorry. 31 00:02:17.000 --> 00:02:20.639 Go ahead, Richard, But even if it rains in Los Angeles. The 32 00:02:20.759 --> 00:02:23.879 responses, as near as I can tell, when you see rain, get 33 00:02:23.879 --> 00:02:27.639 in your car, taking the highway and park it. Yeah yeah, all 34 00:02:27.759 --> 00:02:30.680 right, enough of this small talk. Let's get right into it with better 35 00:02:30.719 --> 00:02:39.919 know framework. Awesome. Alright, man, what do you got? Well, 36 00:02:39.960 --> 00:02:46.120 it's a new story no longer the new ie apples Safari sixteen point four 37 00:02:46.199 --> 00:02:51.400 to bring a hundred and thirty five new features. What the I know? 38 00:02:51.879 --> 00:02:54.039 Well, I just loved that somebody else is using my line. Yeah, 39 00:02:54.120 --> 00:02:58.479 well, I think some they must listen to this show, The New I 40 00:02:58.719 --> 00:03:04.639 E. Because not only did they say all of this stuff, but they 41 00:03:04.680 --> 00:03:10.000 said the likely reason for Apple's hesitancy over implementing web technology is that it helps 42 00:03:10.000 --> 00:03:14.599 to ensure that apps for iOS are delivered by the App Store, a major 43 00:03:14.680 --> 00:03:20.159 profit center for the company. See somebody else gets it too. But some 44 00:03:20.199 --> 00:03:24.840 of these I'll just tell you what the features are Web push notifications. That's 45 00:03:24.879 --> 00:03:30.080 big. So for progressive web apps, we can have notifications even on the 46 00:03:30.120 --> 00:03:34.639 Apple Watch. How about that. Wow, that is a big deal. 47 00:03:34.719 --> 00:03:38.360 That's a huge deal. That means that progressive web applications are actually viable again, 48 00:03:38.439 --> 00:03:45.240 remember I was just lamenting that a while ago, just broken shadow doom 49 00:03:45.520 --> 00:03:52.639 meaning scope CSS, nice support for lazy loading I frames, new jobscript features 50 00:03:52.680 --> 00:03:59.319 like import maps, web assembly, SIMD support, and numerous web animation features 51 00:03:59.319 --> 00:04:03.680 and fixes. And they go into detail in this article about each one of 52 00:04:03.680 --> 00:04:06.560 those things. So it sounds like a big catch up about freaking time. 53 00:04:06.919 --> 00:04:12.080 Yeah, big gold catch up. Yeah. And they also say that the 54 00:04:12.520 --> 00:04:17.519 shift may have to do with the new legislation that the EU Digital Markets Act 55 00:04:18.199 --> 00:04:26.040 potentially impacts Apple policies. But even so, I think I hope the non 56 00:04:26.040 --> 00:04:29.519 cynical knee hopes that they just came to their senses and said, you know, 57 00:04:29.560 --> 00:04:31.560 we don't want to be the new ie. So maybe they were listening 58 00:04:31.639 --> 00:04:36.920 to you, Richard and me and got a hint. Yeah, maybe I 59 00:04:38.040 --> 00:04:40.759 got the hint. But you know, somebody finally said we should just keep 60 00:04:40.800 --> 00:04:44.399 up with standards like it's not helping anybody in the end, right at best, 61 00:04:44.800 --> 00:04:47.839 you know, Apple's already got their walled garden effect where each other's their 62 00:04:47.879 --> 00:04:51.160 products work really well with each other more so than anything else. Right, 63 00:04:51.240 --> 00:04:56.439 you don't have to be more difficult than that, right, please please? 64 00:04:56.439 --> 00:05:00.040 So anyway, I'm really happy about this news and you learn it, love 65 00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:02.120 it. Who's talking to us, Richard? Yeah, grabbed a comments off 66 00:05:02.160 --> 00:05:05.839 a show seventeen nine, which you did back in April twenty two with our 67 00:05:05.839 --> 00:05:09.959 friend Chris Kluge. Yeah, we were talking when he was comparing all the 68 00:05:09.959 --> 00:05:14.399 different infrastructure as code strategies, and that of course naturally led into a DevOps 69 00:05:14.399 --> 00:05:17.720 and a pipeline sort of conversation with the tooling, and I thought it would 70 00:05:17.720 --> 00:05:20.879 tie in nicely with our conversation today. But this comment comes from Devin Gobel. 71 00:05:21.319 --> 00:05:25.399 It's just back in May of twenty two. He made his comment where 72 00:05:25.399 --> 00:05:28.680 he said, my hot take on DevOps is that too many practitioners start off 73 00:05:28.680 --> 00:05:31.839 with rigid, preconceived notions of what they want to do. This is normal. 74 00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:35.360 Our decision making is always going to be shaped by our scars, remember 75 00:05:35.399 --> 00:05:40.720 that. Yeah. Yeah. However, it helps to approach DAVOPS technology as 76 00:05:40.759 --> 00:05:44.439 any technology was an open mind. Start by looking for whether or not the 77 00:05:44.480 --> 00:05:48.079 out of box functionality is sufficient, and if not, why, Here's my 78 00:05:48.120 --> 00:05:54.560 favorite line, are the scars running the show? He'll love? That is 79 00:05:54.600 --> 00:05:59.160 all pain holding you back? Yeah, it's all pain dictating the plan. 80 00:06:00.160 --> 00:06:02.240 Right, There's always going to be some amount of custom work that needs to 81 00:06:02.240 --> 00:06:05.120 be done. But if our first step is always to start by figuring out 82 00:06:05.199 --> 00:06:10.000 how to get the pipeline to run a cosh some Bash or PowerShell script, 83 00:06:10.319 --> 00:06:15.879 you're probably doing it wrong. Yeah, you aren't that special, Yeah right. 84 00:06:15.839 --> 00:06:19.240 If the can features can get you most, if not all the way 85 00:06:19.279 --> 00:06:24.639 there, start with those. They are almost always going to provide decent airror 86 00:06:24.639 --> 00:06:28.639 handling, logging, and parameter checking, especially if their first party offerings. 87 00:06:28.800 --> 00:06:30.920 Keep in mind that there's going to be some differences between greenfield projects to lift 88 00:06:30.959 --> 00:06:34.920 and shift that might still require some extra work. I like to think about 89 00:06:34.959 --> 00:06:39.240 it. For most any cloud project, if step one is to create an 90 00:06:39.240 --> 00:06:42.879 Azure VM and it's all sequel server, you're going down the wrong path, 91 00:06:43.199 --> 00:06:47.040 right, fair enough, Devin. I appreciate you thinking, and I think 92 00:06:47.040 --> 00:06:53.160 we're all in violent agreement with you. Actually absolutely. You know you don't 93 00:06:53.160 --> 00:06:56.399 want one hundred percent. One hundred percent is unlikely, but eighty percent is 94 00:06:56.399 --> 00:07:00.360 a given right, and so you know, find the eighty percent and then 95 00:07:00.360 --> 00:07:01.839 at least see that there's enough for room to do the customizations you need to 96 00:07:01.879 --> 00:07:04.639 do, and that the customizations aren't going to punish you for the rest of 97 00:07:04.639 --> 00:07:08.680 your life in the process. So thanks so much for your commented. A 98 00:07:08.720 --> 00:07:10.639 copy of music go by, it's on its way to you. And if 99 00:07:10.639 --> 00:07:13.040 you'd like a copy of music, go buy, write a comment on the 100 00:07:13.079 --> 00:07:15.399 website at dot at Rocks dot com or on the facebooks. We publish every 101 00:07:15.399 --> 00:07:17.439 show there and if you comment there and I read it on the show, 102 00:07:17.439 --> 00:07:20.000 we'll send you a copy. Mused to go buy. Yeah, the facebooks, 103 00:07:20.160 --> 00:07:24.360 like like you get that at Walmart's. Yes, it's like mom speak 104 00:07:24.439 --> 00:07:28.720 by going through the internet tubes, the internets. Yes. Yeah. So 105 00:07:28.800 --> 00:07:35.959 by the way, Mastodon is where somebody tuted me about this new stuff in 106 00:07:36.399 --> 00:07:40.839 coming in Safari. You got tuted? How about that? I got tuted? 107 00:07:40.959 --> 00:07:45.519 Man? So yeah, I'm enjoying my tutors, the my followers on 108 00:07:45.639 --> 00:07:48.639 Mastodon a lot. There's a lot more engagement down on Twitter. So you 109 00:07:48.680 --> 00:07:54.720 should follow us on Mastodon. I'm at Carl Franklin at tech hub dot social 110 00:07:55.040 --> 00:07:58.920 and I'm Rich Campbell at mastodon dot social and send us it too, because 111 00:07:59.040 --> 00:08:01.519 you know, sometimes that's how we learn things that we talk about on the 112 00:08:01.560 --> 00:08:05.959 show. All right, you heard him before, chime in there, but 113 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:11.319 let me formally introduce Brian. Brian Foster currently works at Microsoft as a senior 114 00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:16.680 Cloud solutions architect and a mentor for the Microsoft Founders Hub, which we definitely 115 00:08:16.680 --> 00:08:20.439 have to talk about. His career started as a full stack dot NEM engineer 116 00:08:20.439 --> 00:08:24.959 and grew too various leadership roles from team lead to CTO. Brian found a 117 00:08:24.959 --> 00:08:31.519 passion for building teams and cultures that focus on cultivating developer velocity. He loves 118 00:08:31.519 --> 00:08:35.799 the development community and appreciates how it has helped his career over the years, 119 00:08:35.320 --> 00:08:39.480 so he decided to give back by co founding the Salt Lake Azure Group in 120 00:08:39.559 --> 00:08:43.279 twenty eighteen. When Brian's not coding, you can find him either in his 121 00:08:43.320 --> 00:08:48.279 wood shop or in the mountains trying to hide from the cell service. Oh 122 00:08:48.279 --> 00:08:52.919 don't we all need that once in a while. Sometimes it's some long hikes. 123 00:08:52.600 --> 00:08:56.279 Yeah, well, welcome to the show, Brian, Thank you, 124 00:08:56.320 --> 00:08:58.879 thank you for having me. You bet. Yeah. What is this micro 125 00:09:00.080 --> 00:09:03.480 Soft Founders Hub. That's an intriguing name. Yeah, it's a program Microsoft 126 00:09:03.519 --> 00:09:09.759 started to kind of just help startups embrace technology and to give them the advantage 127 00:09:09.759 --> 00:09:13.200 to start and not to be held back from technology because it can be a 128 00:09:13.519 --> 00:09:16.440 kind of daunting experience, daunting the learning curve to get into, especially if 129 00:09:16.440 --> 00:09:24.000 you're non technical startup and so us as employees and Microsoft, we've been given 130 00:09:24.039 --> 00:09:28.279 the opportunity to volunteer and kind of ment toward those and it really comes down 131 00:09:28.360 --> 00:09:31.919 some awesome conversations. Rarely are technology driven in that sense, but more just 132 00:09:31.960 --> 00:09:37.000 how do we how do you swim through this lane of technology? Yeah? 133 00:09:37.000 --> 00:09:39.519 I could. That's good. So, yeah, I appreciate that, especially 134 00:09:39.559 --> 00:09:46.120 for non techie people who are starting companies. That's a that's a great service. 135 00:09:46.679 --> 00:09:50.559 It's kind of fun to talk to those clients and kind of foreshadow what's 136 00:09:50.559 --> 00:09:52.519 happening, what's coming down the road. You know. We had some big 137 00:09:52.559 --> 00:09:54.519 things coming with chat GPT recently. I don't know if you guys have heard 138 00:09:54.559 --> 00:09:58.360 of that. Yeah, maybe you've heard of it. Yeah, I'm probably 139 00:09:58.360 --> 00:10:01.360 honestly the only human being in the world that hasn't actually used it yet. 140 00:10:01.799 --> 00:10:07.279 I was using yesterday. Yeah, it didn't help, but it tried really 141 00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:11.679 hard, but it's information was too old. Yeah, And so it gives 142 00:10:11.720 --> 00:10:16.039 those people understanding what to take the proper steps moving forward, what's the next 143 00:10:16.080 --> 00:10:18.840 best step it's going to outlast for a while and I have to come back. 144 00:10:18.919 --> 00:10:22.120 You know, we talked about those scars in that comment, and you 145 00:10:22.120 --> 00:10:24.919 know that I always relate to the pain driven development. Yeah, and you 146 00:10:24.960 --> 00:10:28.960 know why why self inflicts some of those pains and those scars if you don't 147 00:10:28.960 --> 00:10:33.600 have to. But so they give you resources from Azure, They give you 148 00:10:33.639 --> 00:10:37.399 Azure credits along as referent with these knowledge experts. They give you credits through 149 00:10:37.440 --> 00:10:43.240 GitHub and partnerships we have with Microsoft as well. So utilizing some of those 150 00:10:43.279 --> 00:10:46.600 SaaS offerings to just give you that edge that normally you probably wouldn't think of 151 00:10:46.639 --> 00:10:50.120 as a startup, but to then take advantage of that and go, hey, 152 00:10:50.159 --> 00:10:54.279 here's some new possibilities. Wasn't there a program called biz Spark that was 153 00:10:54.360 --> 00:10:56.120 like this Yeah yeah, yeah, that was kind of like the start of 154 00:10:56.480 --> 00:11:01.200 where this is at. So it's like the great grandfather of this program. 155 00:11:01.480 --> 00:11:03.919 Okay, yeah, this park was the old way and now there's a new 156 00:11:03.960 --> 00:11:07.120 way. Yeah. And they have it in like a tiered setup. So 157 00:11:07.159 --> 00:11:11.480 if you're just kind of like an ideation of a startup, you can apply 158 00:11:11.600 --> 00:11:15.440 up to almost going to production so to speak, and you know, right 159 00:11:15.440 --> 00:11:18.200 before you get your funding or going public. So you have these different tiers, 160 00:11:18.200 --> 00:11:24.000 and each tier correlates with the larger cost for Azure credits, the larger 161 00:11:24.120 --> 00:11:28.120 headcount for geth hub dynamics through sixty five, and there's CRM services and so 162 00:11:28.519 --> 00:11:31.519 you really we it's that journey. I think a lot of people, you 163 00:11:31.559 --> 00:11:35.240 know, as you get into cloud, it's a learning journey. And we 164 00:11:35.440 --> 00:11:39.279 hold that startup and help those startup founders go through that whole process from just 165 00:11:39.399 --> 00:11:43.919 ideas and where you go to actually implementing those ideas into the cloud and what 166 00:11:43.080 --> 00:11:48.480 technologies to use and how to best you know, solution their products. So 167 00:11:48.519 --> 00:11:50.519 you're not even necessarily looking for technology people at all. Just if you want 168 00:11:50.559 --> 00:11:54.360 to start a business, they could be talking about Yeah, yeah, I 169 00:11:54.919 --> 00:11:58.080 worked with a company in Atlanta startup and really what they did is help people 170 00:11:58.440 --> 00:12:01.240 consume remote work. Since covid started, you know, you have a lot 171 00:12:01.279 --> 00:12:03.639 of people that don't even know where to start, right, and so they 172 00:12:03.639 --> 00:12:07.639 came up with packages and kind of tutorials how do you even get going, 173 00:12:07.720 --> 00:12:11.879 how to set up microphones, what quality of microphones and web cameras and laptops 174 00:12:11.879 --> 00:12:16.039 and certain programs and where they sit and a lot of that conversations we had 175 00:12:16.039 --> 00:12:20.080 with them is how to scale out, how to handle scale because they can't 176 00:12:20.080 --> 00:12:22.639 do it by myself. And so you talked about a little bit of technology 177 00:12:22.639 --> 00:12:26.720 how we could scale out and their offerings digitally and things like that. So 178 00:12:28.039 --> 00:12:31.799 I enjoy because it's the human aspect of technology or I think it really brings 179 00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:35.840 that spice of life to our field. Yeah, and then innovation aspect. 180 00:12:35.240 --> 00:12:39.720 So you mentioned in your bio the word velocity. What does that actually mean 181 00:12:39.759 --> 00:12:45.440 to you? Well, for one, it does not mean judging developers work 182 00:12:45.519 --> 00:12:50.879 during their sprint. K lox is not a good measure of develop Yeah, 183 00:12:50.919 --> 00:12:54.120 you know that was one thing when everyone's like we're gonna make sure everyone's programming 184 00:12:54.159 --> 00:12:56.960 fast and they're they're hitting X, y Z, and I'm like it that 185 00:12:58.960 --> 00:13:01.559 you can't do that. It's hard, you know, humans hearts. Sometimes 186 00:13:01.559 --> 00:13:05.480 you're working on harder projects than easier projects and you make more progress. To 187 00:13:05.559 --> 00:13:09.799 me a developer, velocity is how to get you how do you get your 188 00:13:09.799 --> 00:13:13.480 ideations into the cloud faster or into for wuistion, And what I mean by 189 00:13:13.480 --> 00:13:16.240 that is, you know you always have those like kind of water cooler talks 190 00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:18.759 and those that have been in departments for a while, I'm like, Oh, 191 00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:24.240 it'd be really cool to do idea X, y Z, but how 192 00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:26.759 do we get started? And there's certain roadblocks built into the corporation or just 193 00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:33.320 through the history of how we handle it infrastructure and development, to where you 194 00:13:33.360 --> 00:13:37.559 know, maybe you can't get to those resources allocated quick enough, and that 195 00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:41.519 kind of idea and then inspiration kind of passes by because life moves on, 196 00:13:41.639 --> 00:13:45.159 work comes, more paying drim developments coming, and you lose that party. 197 00:13:45.279 --> 00:13:48.960 So I look at it, how do I get a developer from whether it 198 00:13:48.080 --> 00:13:54.039 be new or into the company to produce code and be productible member of society. 199 00:13:54.039 --> 00:13:56.960 In our department, just getting someone set up that's new to the team 200 00:13:58.000 --> 00:14:01.159 to a point where they can check a bit of code in and it actually 201 00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:05.200 shows up in the system often is not a trivial problem, like no, 202 00:14:05.879 --> 00:14:09.159 unless you've really worked on it. Like I've seen organizations get to a point 203 00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:11.519 where it's like, in a matter of hours, we can build out a 204 00:14:11.559 --> 00:14:15.320 dev box and have you able to check code in. But you have to 205 00:14:15.519 --> 00:14:18.879 have spent time building that to make that that quick. And I've spent a 206 00:14:18.879 --> 00:14:22.120 lot of time doing that myself as well where that's what's kind of spiked these 207 00:14:22.159 --> 00:14:26.600 interests like how can I simplify this, make it faster but yet flexible, 208 00:14:26.919 --> 00:14:30.720 you know, I think that's a key. Two's a lot of these earlier 209 00:14:30.840 --> 00:14:35.159 day situations are very confined and how we do it like this is your image, 210 00:14:35.200 --> 00:14:37.679 this is how you program good luck. But we know as software is 211 00:14:37.720 --> 00:14:41.879 coming out every week and new releases, we have to kind of stay updated 212 00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:46.120 with that too, So you have to have that flexibility of keeping that environment 213 00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:54.919 moving forward with progression. You do, have you noticed intimidation or imposter syndrome 214 00:14:54.960 --> 00:14:58.679 those kinds of psychological things holding people back when you know they can if they 215 00:14:58.759 --> 00:15:03.559 just relaxed and you know, head down, figure some things out, and 216 00:15:03.919 --> 00:15:07.639 and everything will be okay. I think one hundred percent. I think honestly, 217 00:15:07.679 --> 00:15:11.399 we all face I've faced it myself with almost every new position I've gotten, 218 00:15:11.919 --> 00:15:15.360 because as humans, you don't want to fail. You know, we 219 00:15:15.639 --> 00:15:18.919 seem to look down at that in a negative sense. You know, we 220 00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:22.200 come with compensation from our employment and you're like, man, if I, 221 00:15:22.279 --> 00:15:26.120 you know, don't succeed here, do I can I really justify that compensation? 222 00:15:26.360 --> 00:15:31.480 Like it almost is outside of the development realm, and so I think 223 00:15:31.480 --> 00:15:33.840 it's you know, to set up a safe area for developers. It's it's 224 00:15:33.919 --> 00:15:37.120 key in leadership to be able to say, hey, look we have this 225 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:41.879 built in a way where you can go and make mistakes and we're not going 226 00:15:41.919 --> 00:15:46.720 to be mad about it. We also set up where we're not going to 227 00:15:46.759 --> 00:15:50.080 be hard about it. Yeah, that's pretty hard to fail and learn from 228 00:15:50.080 --> 00:15:52.240 it. Yeah, you have to, yeah, you know. And there's 229 00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:56.879 that statement quick to fill. I like to kind of modify and say quick 230 00:15:56.879 --> 00:15:58.720 to fill smartly, like, let's assess what we're going into, let's as 231 00:15:58.759 --> 00:16:02.960 set uh you know, where our code is, how we're going to deploy, 232 00:16:03.039 --> 00:16:06.960 if we're going to deploy, and be prepared for any of the negative 233 00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:11.799 outcomes. Quick to recover from failure. Yeah yeah, yeah. In fact 234 00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:15.240 that I think it's a better policy because when when the cost of failure is 235 00:16:15.279 --> 00:16:21.279 really low, you'll be more experimental, Like you'll move faster because the breaking 236 00:16:21.320 --> 00:16:23.360 things part's not that big of a deal, right yeah. Yeah. And 237 00:16:23.480 --> 00:16:26.840 you know modern data velment too, a lot of it is focused in the 238 00:16:26.840 --> 00:16:30.360 cloud, you know, whatever cloud provider you're using, and so a lot 239 00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:33.200 of us uh, you know, you come into cloud your first From my 240 00:16:33.279 --> 00:16:36.120 experience and from what I've seen from a lot of engineers, their first experience 241 00:16:36.159 --> 00:16:38.799 getting in the cloud is through the portal, like through the web UI and 242 00:16:38.840 --> 00:16:42.159 you're clicking on things and dragon and they do like as you're specifically, does 243 00:16:42.159 --> 00:16:47.519 a fantastic job of building a UX where it's even if you're not an infrastructure 244 00:16:47.559 --> 00:16:52.399 knowledgeable person, you can build out app services or as your functions decently quick 245 00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:56.559 and kind of know what's going on. They have a great breadcrumbing through menu 246 00:16:56.799 --> 00:17:00.440 you to go through and to build that out. But it's same time, 247 00:17:00.519 --> 00:17:03.799 it's human interaction and what are one thing that humans are really good at? 248 00:17:03.919 --> 00:17:07.319 Or just making mistakes because it happens, you know. I always love how 249 00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:11.440 Microsoft's like oh were the elasticity in the cloud of being able to scale up 250 00:17:11.480 --> 00:17:15.000 and scale down and set those scales is so easy. Like it is, 251 00:17:15.079 --> 00:17:17.960 but it's also really easy to scale all the way up to the highest level 252 00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:21.559 price skew and forget about it through the week and let it run through the 253 00:17:21.599 --> 00:17:23.279 weekend and go don't worry, I'll find out. You'll find out at about 254 00:17:23.319 --> 00:17:26.799 it soon. And I know a little about that. Yeah, thirty days 255 00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:29.839 later, they're like, hey, what's you know, a company comes to 256 00:17:29.839 --> 00:17:30.799 you and goes, what's this bill, and you're like, I have no 257 00:17:30.920 --> 00:17:34.640 idea. Let me go find out. Why do I owe twenty thousand dollars 258 00:17:34.680 --> 00:17:40.519 this month? Yeah? Yeah, that's my backdoor cryptomoney. Yeah, but 259 00:17:41.240 --> 00:17:42.720 you know, and that could be scary for our new employees, right if 260 00:17:42.759 --> 00:17:45.839 you're new to the company, say six months, and you do something like 261 00:17:45.880 --> 00:17:48.119 that, and they're coming back like, hey, here's this cost, it's 262 00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:52.559 just scary. A lot of those new newcomers are young in the field as 263 00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:56.519 well, and so they don't even necessarily have that experience of making those mistakes. 264 00:17:56.519 --> 00:18:00.880 And I think that's even a steeper threshold of right, so you spend 265 00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:04.720 a bit of time teaching cloud governance ide that. Yeah, yeah, I 266 00:18:04.759 --> 00:18:10.160 think that cloud governance too expands more just from the developer. I mean, 267 00:18:10.480 --> 00:18:12.880 Richard, I know, with your background and managing hardware and IT, you 268 00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:18.079 know, in enterprise levels, that's kind of a fight against developers and IT 269 00:18:18.359 --> 00:18:22.279 management. Sometimes. I've seen some companies where I stick with that mindset. 270 00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:25.400 I mean, I'd never blame a developer for the fact that they were able 271 00:18:25.440 --> 00:18:27.839 to leave a bunch of infrastructure on that they didn't need. That's on it, 272 00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:36.319 you know, infrastructure versus possible Yeah, right, they that should have 273 00:18:36.319 --> 00:18:40.200 been caught and cleaned up. Yeah, and it. But that's also I 274 00:18:40.200 --> 00:18:41.599 don't want them to be afraid, Like I want them to have the confidence 275 00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:45.759 of go ahead, fire up as much stuff as you want, you know, 276 00:18:45.960 --> 00:18:48.640 but you're gonna have to fight hard to keep it alive more than the 277 00:18:48.759 --> 00:18:51.960 end of today. Yeah, Like that should be the hard part is leaving 278 00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:55.319 stuff on, not leaving stuff off. Yeah, And I think that's the 279 00:18:55.400 --> 00:19:00.599 natural evolution to of like infrastructure's code as that started to come out. You 280 00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:03.000 know, back to the comments about all the different offerings. You know, 281 00:19:03.319 --> 00:19:08.440 we even as those that manage the cloud, they don't want to manually bring 282 00:19:08.519 --> 00:19:15.559 up storage accounts and vms and virtual networks for every request. I've seen that 283 00:19:15.640 --> 00:19:19.440 where we've had enterprise companies, large companies where you talk to the developers about 284 00:19:19.480 --> 00:19:23.119 building out this idea of this project, this innovation, my air quotes here, 285 00:19:23.160 --> 00:19:26.480 this application innovation, and they're like, well that's great, but I 286 00:19:26.519 --> 00:19:33.160 need to throw a note over to it to build out this infrastructure. And 287 00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:36.519 that's a two week turnaround and then we'll have access to it. You're like, 288 00:19:36.519 --> 00:19:38.559 oh man, well, because it used to be a nine month turnaround, 289 00:19:38.599 --> 00:19:41.400 like it is, feeling pretty good about me deliver that in two weeks 290 00:19:41.720 --> 00:19:45.240 when? And the reality is it should be a minute. Yeah, right, 291 00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:48.039 there has to be self service. Well, you think of the price. 292 00:19:48.079 --> 00:19:51.960 If you've heard de priatories your daily work tasks and what you want to 293 00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:56.640 do doing up resources in the cloud for people's requests, I'm sure probably bottom 294 00:19:56.680 --> 00:19:59.640 on your list of doing that day in and day out. And if you 295 00:19:59.640 --> 00:20:03.720 could take that ten percent of repetitiveness and automate that, you can now stack 296 00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:07.519 that free ten percent on top of your priority list and start working on things 297 00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:12.480 that will drive business value for your department or for your role or responsibilities. 298 00:20:12.880 --> 00:20:18.000 Is they're tooling around that whole self service idea. There's some tooling. We 299 00:20:18.039 --> 00:20:22.839 are starting to formalize some of those toolings. You know, you talk about 300 00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:26.960 infrastructure's code and run it through saying like an as your CLI or starting to 301 00:20:26.039 --> 00:20:30.240 run it in cic D. But it's still kind of fragmented amongst the teams, 302 00:20:30.680 --> 00:20:33.960 right, it's you know, someone always seems to control it and because 303 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:37.359 they know it. I think that's one thing that's kind of key in this 304 00:20:37.480 --> 00:20:41.160 devop side is you get certain people to kind of overlap responsibilities because they're like, 305 00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:44.720 I need to know a little bit about cic D for my development, 306 00:20:44.759 --> 00:20:48.519 so I'm going to learn infrastructure's code. Infrastructure code starts to dip into knowing 307 00:20:48.559 --> 00:20:51.519 infrastructure, which now I need to bring in my people. Right, So 308 00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:55.519 there's a little bit of fragmentation there. But Microsoft is done really well and 309 00:20:55.519 --> 00:21:00.799 they've actually recently released a new resource, a new concept in the cloud called 310 00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:07.000 as Your Deployment Environments And this kind of encapsulates all those theories, methodologies, 311 00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:12.720 and process and tooling to automate these processes and to actually join those developers, 312 00:21:12.799 --> 00:21:18.400 developer manager and the IT management teams together, because I think that's huge in 313 00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:23.160 the culture as well of even DevOps being successful and development teams being Succesful's communication. 314 00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:26.079 Let us all know, we're all on the same team here, So 315 00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:30.440 how do we work together, how do we evolve together and bring that business 316 00:21:30.599 --> 00:21:34.160 value? And so you know, and as your Deployment Environments is fantastic. 317 00:21:34.200 --> 00:21:40.039 It's it's a concept the specific resources that come into the cloud. It's called 318 00:21:40.079 --> 00:21:42.359 the dev center, and that dev center is where you can come in and 319 00:21:42.400 --> 00:21:48.359 you can kind of manage the infrastructure's code what we call catalogs, and that 320 00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:52.799 contains all the infrastructure's code for these specific projects. And then on top of 321 00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:57.720 that, you can manage that certain environments as they're going to because on top 322 00:21:57.759 --> 00:22:02.960 of me and making sure you're in the proper virtual networks, you need to 323 00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:06.079 worry about that the people that are in them are authorized to use those resources. 324 00:22:06.359 --> 00:22:11.880 Right. You know, from your various environments of development to QA to 325 00:22:11.079 --> 00:22:15.599 staging, you're going to have various roles that are going to need different permissions, 326 00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:19.359 and potentially you don't want the developer into the QA environment or don't want 327 00:22:19.359 --> 00:22:22.519 anyone in the staging environment because you want to keep that, you know, 328 00:22:22.640 --> 00:22:26.440 its own thing. Make sure what's going out in production is what's going on. 329 00:22:26.559 --> 00:22:30.440 Protections. I'm modified from the single source of truth of the you know 330 00:22:30.559 --> 00:22:34.720 CICD, those pipelines being built, and so in dev Center you can set 331 00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:38.920 up those environments and then you can set those r back permissions and who has 332 00:22:38.920 --> 00:22:45.680 availability for those and so then what you can do from a dev manager perspective 333 00:22:45.759 --> 00:22:53.759 is you can execute these environments to build out the sandbox environments automatically. One 334 00:22:53.920 --> 00:23:00.519 thing we see in deployment procedures is you branch from features of your projects, 335 00:23:02.279 --> 00:23:06.839 so you could have multiply dozens of projects going on at once for that same 336 00:23:06.920 --> 00:23:10.759 core application, you know, different features or wims. When that bug, 337 00:23:10.839 --> 00:23:14.920 you know bug and production hits it Tuesday at two o'clock in the afternoon, 338 00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:18.599 it needs to be fixed asap, we halt all work, right and they're 339 00:23:18.599 --> 00:23:19.720 like, okay, let's focus on this bug fix. Let's get it back 340 00:23:19.759 --> 00:23:23.880 into production. The dev center gives you that ability to scaffo out a whole 341 00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:29.160 environment for that bug fix, fix it deploy you know, down near your 342 00:23:29.160 --> 00:23:33.400 cic D is staging, as well as bringing that bugfix down in the code 343 00:23:33.400 --> 00:23:36.799 repositories for your say, your dev environments, because it's going to need that 344 00:23:36.839 --> 00:23:40.559 updated code, and so you have a lot of agility there in those environments. 345 00:23:40.640 --> 00:23:44.119 You're not sitting there personally building out as your infrastructure, you know, 346 00:23:44.359 --> 00:23:48.279 by hand, you're setting up resources and functions and app services and whatnot. 347 00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:52.440 So we have that automated process. Sounds just like the natural evolution of source 348 00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:56.119 control to me. Yeah, yeah, And it's more onlike the infrastructure side 349 00:23:56.119 --> 00:24:00.200 of the infrastructure side. Yeah, now, and you would be feeding these 350 00:24:00.200 --> 00:24:06.559 deployment environments from get hub actions. Yes, you can get hub actions there. 351 00:24:06.559 --> 00:24:11.160 These infrastructure's code files are stored in a code repository, whether it be 352 00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:15.240 gethhub or as your DevOps, and we have a manifest file inside the structure 353 00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:18.680 that kind of points out what files belong and kind of gives it some order. 354 00:24:19.359 --> 00:24:23.359 And that's how the dev center is, you know, recognizing these files 355 00:24:23.400 --> 00:24:27.000 and that structure. But you know, behind an azure and that control plane, 356 00:24:27.319 --> 00:24:30.279 as we know, everything is spoken to that ARM level at as your 357 00:24:30.279 --> 00:24:36.440 resource manager level in those files, and so whether you're running it from the 358 00:24:36.440 --> 00:24:38.880 cic D process or as your CLI, it's always going to go through that 359 00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:44.400 layer. And you know, currently we only support ARMED templates. But this 360 00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:48.440 is a public preview resource that just came out in October. But we're we're 361 00:24:48.480 --> 00:24:51.880 looking at aiming at terraform of being kind of a first class citizen as well. 362 00:24:52.160 --> 00:24:56.359 Okay, great, So it's kind of exciting, and we're encompassing all 363 00:24:56.440 --> 00:25:00.759 flavors of infrastructure's code, you know those popular flavors. Pullum me too, 364 00:25:00.799 --> 00:25:03.680 I guess is on that list. Yeah, bring everyone in too, you 365 00:25:03.680 --> 00:25:06.759 know, welcome to the cloud. I guess to say, you know, 366 00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:11.240 yeah, we're not the Microsoft of old. Yes, that's true. Yeah. 367 00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:14.400 And when I when I hear azure ARM, I think BICEP. These 368 00:25:14.519 --> 00:25:18.599 days, I as well, I rarely type in Jason Arm, you know 369 00:25:18.799 --> 00:25:22.480 what we had back in the day, usually SPICEP, which I feel like 370 00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:26.519 is a good middle person between ARM and Terraform. I stick to bicep, 371 00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:30.119 man because all of my work is in Azure and so that's just a personal 372 00:25:30.119 --> 00:25:34.640 decision of mine. But yeah, Terraform will still quickly become a first classes 373 00:25:34.799 --> 00:25:40.799 one's gas later this year. Yeah, I think a BICEP, mostly because 374 00:25:40.799 --> 00:25:48.680 I know the listeners are programmers and BICEP is more programmy and less um yamily. 375 00:25:48.200 --> 00:25:56.079 Shall we say? Yeah, no one liked the amial said no one 376 00:25:56.079 --> 00:26:02.599 ever? I like you almost said no one, right, there's your quote, 377 00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:07.680 But yeah, Biseet, Like when Infrastructure's code started years ago, as 378 00:26:07.720 --> 00:26:11.079 a developer, you quickly kind of get into that object oriented mindset of like, 379 00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:14.359 oh, I want to build out a lot of functions. How do 380 00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:17.759 I build out multiple functions? You know, before there was looping and those 381 00:26:17.759 --> 00:26:18.519 type of things. You're like, well, you have to have a separate 382 00:26:18.519 --> 00:26:22.519 function file. You recall the file multiple times, so you always had to 383 00:26:22.559 --> 00:26:26.960 kind of introduce scripting into that sense as well. But now you know breaking 384 00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:32.200 out your modules. We kind of call it like a bifurcated infrastructure repository, 385 00:26:32.960 --> 00:26:37.000 where in a sense, before deav center, you could have a repository that 386 00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:44.200 stored your infrastructure i AC files for networking, for VMS and kind of bring 387 00:26:44.200 --> 00:26:48.519 out to that sandbox guardrails and then you know, maybe a generic app service. 388 00:26:48.759 --> 00:26:52.839 But then a project itself, as a developer is working on it may 389 00:26:52.880 --> 00:26:59.079 have infrastructures code files for their particular function or app service and the details that 390 00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:03.240 go into that. Maybe it's a certain tails setting, custom domains, type 391 00:27:03.240 --> 00:27:07.599 configuration, auto scale rules you know, we'll have you know, autoscale rules 392 00:27:07.599 --> 00:27:11.039 specifically could be different for every app service, right, so why would you 393 00:27:11.039 --> 00:27:14.279 want to maintain that from like a core spot where it's the same across the 394 00:27:14.319 --> 00:27:18.359 board. You want that flexibility, and so you can have those inside each 395 00:27:18.440 --> 00:27:22.400 project's repository. And then when your cic D starts to execute and you're starting 396 00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:29.640 to release this code, you bring in the big building blocks from your management 397 00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:33.200 I REPO, and you bring in the building blocks from the project I see, 398 00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:37.519 and combine those two together to then build out to that infrastructure if necessary. 399 00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:41.119 So you have both plane at hand, right, You have your infrastructure 400 00:27:41.119 --> 00:27:45.480 management plane at hand as well as the developer's agility plane at hand. Here 401 00:27:45.519 --> 00:27:51.599 for that success. Because even I, as a developer, I get over 402 00:27:51.640 --> 00:27:53.920 my skis really quick when it comes to infrastructure and making sure everything is secure 403 00:27:53.920 --> 00:27:56.799 and where we need to go. You know, I really want to focus 404 00:27:56.839 --> 00:28:00.480 on the code and on the application at the same time. We can't just 405 00:28:00.519 --> 00:28:03.039 have our blinders on and just say I'm coding, I'm deploying. It works 406 00:28:03.039 --> 00:28:06.079 on my machine, let me continue going, right. That's the statement of 407 00:28:06.119 --> 00:28:10.000 two thousand and two. It works on my machine, right and before that. 408 00:28:10.079 --> 00:28:14.480 Yeah, But it feels to me like most evs would be able to 409 00:28:14.480 --> 00:28:18.240 take a branch, do some modify, do their work, get it running 410 00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:22.599 on their machine, merge to the branch, somebody else picks up the PR 411 00:28:22.039 --> 00:28:26.000 as soon as that PR happens to get hub action kicks off, and now 412 00:28:26.079 --> 00:28:32.480 it's up in the pipeline, sitting in the deployment environment waiting for the next 413 00:28:32.519 --> 00:28:36.680 step. Essentially pretty much qa's now going to take it out for a spin, 414 00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:38.279 maybe do their own set of tests so far, or it's ready to 415 00:28:38.279 --> 00:28:42.319 go to staging and then and somebody else is going to push it into production. 416 00:28:42.599 --> 00:28:45.599 Yeah. And that's the thing is like, once your build the code 417 00:28:45.640 --> 00:28:48.599 and ready to deploy, the question is where are you deploying it? Where 418 00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:49.720 is it going to sit in the cloud? Are we going to manly build 419 00:28:49.720 --> 00:28:53.799 out those infrastrues you know those environments for QUA good deesos. You wouldn't want 420 00:28:53.799 --> 00:28:56.799 to get hob action just pushes to the production app service. I mean, 421 00:28:56.839 --> 00:29:02.039 who would do that? Nobody does that? Did you skip the whole pull 422 00:29:02.079 --> 00:29:03.920 request part? You just simply pushed a master? Is that what you did? 423 00:29:04.279 --> 00:29:07.559 Okay? I just opened a visual students said right click deploy. So 424 00:29:10.519 --> 00:29:14.960 I worked on a project where it was a requirement to have a pull request 425 00:29:15.400 --> 00:29:18.640 that had to be approved by a guy who only worked on the project three 426 00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:22.839 days a week. Oh boy, And they wondered why I was going so 427 00:29:22.839 --> 00:29:26.079 slow? Yeah, yeah, yeah, especially if he's on vacation or you 428 00:29:26.079 --> 00:29:29.200 know, it gets hit by a bus. You're in a hard, tough 429 00:29:29.240 --> 00:29:33.960 situation. Yeah, it was tough. And then they finally said no, 430 00:29:33.079 --> 00:29:37.839 just go ahead and just forget that. We're going to remove that request to 431 00:29:37.880 --> 00:29:41.319 remove that block. Well, and to me, it's not even that, 432 00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:45.039 it's that you didn't get the code out there like gaff. Now you're gonna 433 00:29:45.039 --> 00:29:48.880 work on several other things before any of that stuff gets checked in. It 434 00:29:48.039 --> 00:29:52.480 just makes merge merging terrible. Merging gets terrible, and if there is a 435 00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:56.079 problem, it's out of your head. Yeah, right, like you got 436 00:29:56.079 --> 00:30:00.480 to start over basically, Yeah, it wasn't fun. And folks, before 437 00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:08.200 we continue, I've got some very important messages to share. And we're back. 438 00:30:08.200 --> 00:30:11.920 It's Don and Rocks. I'm Richard Canaball. That's Carl Franklin Woo too. 439 00:30:12.119 --> 00:30:18.240 Talking to our friend Brian Foster a bit about this idea of development velocity 440 00:30:18.400 --> 00:30:22.359 as a as a metric around DevOps like keeping folks that aerating fast. I 441 00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:26.319 mentioned just before the break there, this whole idea of like, I want 442 00:30:26.359 --> 00:30:30.160 that code you just worked on still in your head, so as soon as 443 00:30:30.160 --> 00:30:33.400 I can get problems back to you the quicker, they're going to be able 444 00:30:33.400 --> 00:30:37.400 to fix them. Yeah. Yeah, I think that that agility is key, 445 00:30:37.480 --> 00:30:40.359 right, That's where the innovation comes from, is that being able to 446 00:30:40.359 --> 00:30:44.759 to be nimble and to test these type of concepts too. I know you 447 00:30:44.799 --> 00:30:52.160 had a previous guest on Tom Kirkhov who talked about API M and part of 448 00:30:52.200 --> 00:30:55.119 his conversation talked about how you're LOWD testing and this is kind of a scenic 449 00:30:55.160 --> 00:30:57.839 tour, but as you're load testing, is a fantastic resources come out to 450 00:30:57.960 --> 00:31:03.519 start doing that edge testing quicker at load right, Right's nothing like building something. 451 00:31:03.559 --> 00:31:07.359 I've been there, you know, you follow say Anity frameworks, Hello 452 00:31:07.519 --> 00:31:11.039 World tutorials and you kind of start building that out and you're interacting with your 453 00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:12.960 data and it works, and when you go into production, all of a 454 00:31:12.960 --> 00:31:17.279 sudden, at volume, it just kind of blows up on you. And 455 00:31:17.359 --> 00:31:22.480 there's no way to mimic production environments on a local machine, let alone in 456 00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:27.240 like a dev environment. And with resource like as you're load testing, you 457 00:31:27.279 --> 00:31:32.200 can throw all kinds of instance engines at it and get to that production level 458 00:31:32.319 --> 00:31:36.680 volume coming through. Yeah, so those slight cynic route it's still kind of 459 00:31:36.680 --> 00:31:41.119 allow lines with that velocity right to get that feedback and that data back to 460 00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:44.200 understand, hey, are we ready to go to production? Did we handle 461 00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:47.880 this properly? Sure? It's kind of key there, I mean, and 462 00:31:47.960 --> 00:31:52.480 there's load test of failure, but there's also load tests to performance or load 463 00:31:52.480 --> 00:31:56.400 test of requirements. You know. For me, again wearing my IT hat, 464 00:31:56.480 --> 00:31:59.599 it's like, I don't care that the apps now slower. I care 465 00:31:59.680 --> 00:32:02.720 that I've provision enough for Saturday, and so running it through the load tester 466 00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:07.039 to compare last week's version of this week's version at least tells me I need 467 00:32:07.039 --> 00:32:13.359 a provision ten percent more to get the same overall support for the previous week. 468 00:32:13.880 --> 00:32:16.640 And you don't want to find that out in production either, the site 469 00:32:16.680 --> 00:32:21.799 stepping over because we didn't provisions sufficiently. Yeah, what's always Dave, the 470 00:32:21.839 --> 00:32:29.680 coder's fault. When that happens everything you do. That's become the running joke 471 00:32:29.720 --> 00:32:32.119 in my house anytime technology doesn't work, My wife and I say, I 472 00:32:32.200 --> 00:32:37.079 blame the programmers. Yeah, yeah, we call them George George, George 473 00:32:37.079 --> 00:32:43.559 the developer. But I think another flexibility perspective too of asure deployment environments in 474 00:32:43.559 --> 00:32:51.319 this dev center is handling the various environments of a development department within a company. 475 00:32:51.759 --> 00:32:53.680 Right, whether you are a small company it was say a solo dev 476 00:32:53.759 --> 00:32:58.160 or a small team of devs that are ready just to build on their laptops 477 00:32:58.160 --> 00:33:02.240 and kind of work from their machines and program to remote workers. Because then 478 00:33:02.279 --> 00:33:07.799 you bring in another security aspect there is you have people off premise connecting into 479 00:33:07.839 --> 00:33:12.079 your infrastructure, connecting into your codebase that are working on these things, which 480 00:33:12.119 --> 00:33:15.839 I'm sure set off some red flags and red alarts for people. And then 481 00:33:15.880 --> 00:33:19.960 you have you know, offshore development, contract development, where how do you 482 00:33:19.960 --> 00:33:23.680 know on board these people for these various projects quickly so they can start working 483 00:33:23.720 --> 00:33:27.279 towards it. And then what happens when they leave? You know, you 484 00:33:27.279 --> 00:33:30.279 don't want to necessary that code running on their machine and they go, Hi, 485 00:33:30.480 --> 00:33:31.839 see you later, Richard. I quit on a Tuesday, and I 486 00:33:31.920 --> 00:33:37.240 just started all your proprietary knowledge there right and that code and so dev Center, 487 00:33:37.359 --> 00:33:42.839 with the combination of another attribute called a resource called as your dev box, 488 00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:45.079 plays a big part in this velocity. It's kind of just another brick 489 00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:50.640 on the stack here to increase the velocity. Dev Box is something as well 490 00:33:50.640 --> 00:33:54.359 has come out recently over the last year and is in still public preview, 491 00:33:54.440 --> 00:34:00.720 but is an environment for a virtual environment for developers focused on the developer long 492 00:34:00.799 --> 00:34:04.720 lasting state in sense of working on that project. You know, you can 493 00:34:04.759 --> 00:34:10.280 customize that image for your development environment. So whether you're using visual Studio or 494 00:34:10.360 --> 00:34:15.320 using some jet Brains products certain lines. I think that's key. When when 495 00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:17.599 we talk about, you know, worked on my machine, it usually comes 496 00:34:17.639 --> 00:34:22.960 down to, you know, different MPM versions or different framework versions, right, 497 00:34:23.079 --> 00:34:27.599 and someone's machine just randomly updates because you're like, oh, yeah, 498 00:34:27.639 --> 00:34:30.039 accept all updates and make my machine the best it can be. And then 499 00:34:30.079 --> 00:34:32.519 all of sudden, all the projects break because now you have, you know, 500 00:34:32.559 --> 00:34:37.280 newer versions of these libraries, and so now you can have like that 501 00:34:37.360 --> 00:34:43.360 consistent developer environment across the board for specific features. You know, maybe you 502 00:34:43.480 --> 00:34:45.800 have a project you're working on where you're starting to update these libraries, but 503 00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:49.480 again that bug scenario comes in and you're like, oh, I need to 504 00:34:49.519 --> 00:34:52.079 work on this bug. What are the current steps? Now current it's like, 505 00:34:52.119 --> 00:34:57.039 well, let me re license knocked down the versions of these frameworks, 506 00:34:57.119 --> 00:35:00.639 or let me pull out a whole nother repository and kind of retweet my machine. 507 00:35:01.519 --> 00:35:05.119 Now we don't have to necessarily do that because we have these dev boxes 508 00:35:05.639 --> 00:35:07.840 and in the middle ground between that it's been containers. I mean, I 509 00:35:07.880 --> 00:35:13.000 would be a fool not to bring in containers. You know, every project 510 00:35:13.039 --> 00:35:16.000 should be in a container in my opinion, Yeah, because it helps alleviate 511 00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:21.480 this scenario we're talking about, right, how onboard a new dev how to 512 00:35:21.639 --> 00:35:25.880 get various developers machines running this project. You know you use a container, 513 00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:30.280 but that's at the project level, and so how do we expand that? 514 00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:32.239 So you're talking about a container for the dev environment, Well, not necessari 515 00:35:32.280 --> 00:35:36.559 for the dev environment, but for their codebase. Sorry, so for container 516 00:35:36.559 --> 00:35:38.840 on the project. Yeah, you know, before containers, we had those 517 00:35:38.880 --> 00:35:43.280 visioning issues all the time, and I think it ran on my machine was 518 00:35:43.320 --> 00:35:47.000 more of a bold statement and very common. Then we bring in containers to 519 00:35:47.079 --> 00:35:52.599 the project to kind of alleviate that issue right to where I can run on 520 00:35:52.599 --> 00:35:54.400 my Mac, you could run on your Windows machine and we can build the 521 00:35:54.400 --> 00:35:58.320 same project because it's based out of that container. To me, the container 522 00:35:58.320 --> 00:36:05.840 has really brought the manifest mindset. It catalyzed as opposed to petized the workloads 523 00:36:05.920 --> 00:36:08.679 right that we're used to just generating the workload from scratch. Again, remake 524 00:36:08.719 --> 00:36:16.079 this machine not CATALYZEDATA, but cattle at Las, cattle not pets. Yeah, 525 00:36:16.119 --> 00:36:19.639 we said at all time Yeah, treats your infrastructure like cattle, not 526 00:36:19.719 --> 00:36:22.559 pets. No, no pretty naming, yeah, kill it well, kill 527 00:36:22.599 --> 00:36:27.039 it and recreated on demand, right, so that you know that the infrastructure 528 00:36:27.119 --> 00:36:30.719 is code. The manifest of the container is the source of truth because there's 529 00:36:30.760 --> 00:36:34.360 nothing you in there anymore when you restarted. But I think it's very different 530 00:36:34.360 --> 00:36:38.519 from like if I wrong. Dev box is virtual desktop configured for developers. 531 00:36:38.840 --> 00:36:42.760 No, you're you're kind of spot on there. It's a slight evolution of 532 00:36:42.760 --> 00:36:45.960 it. But yeah, and we create these deav pools that work for these 533 00:36:45.960 --> 00:36:49.440 specific projects that you've built in your deav center, right, and your project 534 00:36:49.480 --> 00:36:53.440 is associated to a specific infrastructure's code catalog that's going to build out that environment. 535 00:36:53.559 --> 00:36:58.599 So again, feature X on project A, Yeah, and you can 536 00:36:58.639 --> 00:37:01.199 have multiple people working on feature X, and then while you're working on feature 537 00:37:01.360 --> 00:37:04.639 X, you know, bug A comes in and you got to work on 538 00:37:04.639 --> 00:37:09.679 that. So you have multiple dev boxes running for each specific situation. Sure, 539 00:37:09.800 --> 00:37:14.719 and so you have these dev pools coming around, and but it's managed 540 00:37:14.840 --> 00:37:20.199 from you know, those that are responsible for managing infrastructure and kind of what 541 00:37:20.280 --> 00:37:23.320 those images should be. But just like an AVD, you're generating a compute 542 00:37:23.880 --> 00:37:27.679 you go in the compute gallery. You know you're building a custom image or 543 00:37:27.679 --> 00:37:30.840 a golden image for these deav boxes, right, and then you're assigning these 544 00:37:30.880 --> 00:37:36.400 specific images to these projects. So even you think on companies that have a 545 00:37:36.519 --> 00:37:39.840 various need of projects, you know, going from mobile to web applications to 546 00:37:39.880 --> 00:37:45.239 back ends, you know you may need different under running OS systems or you 547 00:37:45.280 --> 00:37:49.920 know needs to run that project, and so you can get that specific environment 548 00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:52.719 for your developers. Well rather than having to buy a PC and a Mac 549 00:37:52.800 --> 00:37:55.639 for your devs because they need to develop the sub development on a Mac, 550 00:37:55.760 --> 00:38:01.400 sub development on a PC. Just having dev boxes and really almost nothing installed 551 00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:06.400 on the local workstation, then like yeah, arguably you have more compute available 552 00:38:06.400 --> 00:38:08.400 in the cloud than you have on the desktop. And just to be clear, 553 00:38:08.440 --> 00:38:12.400 a dev box. We're talking to VM in the clouds somewhere that you 554 00:38:12.480 --> 00:38:15.440 use for development. Well, you said AVD, you mean as your virtual 555 00:38:15.480 --> 00:38:20.400 desktop. So rather than you owning the VM, this is a service that 556 00:38:20.440 --> 00:38:23.519 does the virtual desktop stuff. Okay, yep, and so does this does 557 00:38:23.519 --> 00:38:29.159 this work differently if you're a remote or offshore developer on a team as if 558 00:38:29.199 --> 00:38:32.599 you're in house, I mean, is there are there any other considerations there 559 00:38:32.639 --> 00:38:37.760 for ADE. Well, that's the glorious part of it is is no is 560 00:38:37.800 --> 00:38:39.480 you can come up with a solution that works for all those scenarios. And 561 00:38:39.559 --> 00:38:44.159 so we talk about that velocity of coming in from a business standpoint as well 562 00:38:44.159 --> 00:38:46.119 as you have a way to build an environment for all those scenarios, you 563 00:38:46.159 --> 00:38:50.159 know, and COVID kind of threw that all outgoing remote kind. I mean 564 00:38:50.239 --> 00:38:52.679 that all first class, like oh we need to make sure remanage this and 565 00:38:52.719 --> 00:38:57.480 so no, like I mentioned, you know, if you are a startup 566 00:38:57.519 --> 00:39:00.239 engineer and you're the solo engineer, you can set up dead box so you 567 00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:04.159 can you got to think ahead and scale because eventually as you bring more people 568 00:39:04.199 --> 00:39:07.320 in, this scenario will work for them, you know, handling from a 569 00:39:07.480 --> 00:39:12.840 dead box perspective. Bring in in remote developers, same thing, they have 570 00:39:12.880 --> 00:39:15.480 their access that's set from dev center, they log in, it's in that 571 00:39:15.559 --> 00:39:20.159 Azure dev box where they can then access the code repositories where you can have 572 00:39:20.199 --> 00:39:22.639 that kind of lock down, that security so they can't just take it and 573 00:39:22.679 --> 00:39:25.400 walk away. Yeah, as well as consultants. One feature I'm waiting for 574 00:39:25.519 --> 00:39:30.199 us for Microsoft to change laws of physics so everybody's in the same time zone. 575 00:39:30.199 --> 00:39:35.119 Can you guys do that? Coming from an experience of corporate for an 576 00:39:35.159 --> 00:39:38.880 exchange around the world, I can understand the pain of time management lining Matt 577 00:39:39.239 --> 00:39:46.360 Well. And presumably you can run Microsoft dev box on in any Azure data 578 00:39:46.400 --> 00:39:51.000 center, so if you do have offshore devs, they don't have to run 579 00:39:51.000 --> 00:39:52.760 in the as your data center as close as you. They run in the 580 00:39:52.039 --> 00:39:55.199 data set as closer to them. Yep, yep, brings out you know, 581 00:39:55.199 --> 00:40:00.719 lowers that latency and brings that developer bospia. Yeah. Nice. Well, 582 00:40:00.719 --> 00:40:04.239 at the same time, you do have control and you're also maintaining standards 583 00:40:04.280 --> 00:40:08.400 on configuration and like there's a bunch of advantages to doing that way and he's 584 00:40:08.400 --> 00:40:12.079 strange for you kind of figure out how to sell us stuff up and you're 585 00:40:12.079 --> 00:40:15.800 paying by the hour, yes, and that's a key to that consumption based 586 00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:17.800 Like we can have scale down to idle or scale down to zero for these 587 00:40:17.840 --> 00:40:22.480 deav boxes too, so you're not paying for that usage over the weekend or 588 00:40:22.519 --> 00:40:24.880 whenever. These developers may not be working, and that's kind of a cost 589 00:40:24.880 --> 00:40:29.039 satience perspective two of that. So you know when you go on vacation for 590 00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:30.000 two weeks. We don't have to pay for your machine for two weeks, 591 00:40:30.199 --> 00:40:34.840 so to speak. How do dev boxes work with mobile development? Are we 592 00:40:34.880 --> 00:40:37.880 forced to use emulators or can we use local devices? You know? To 593 00:40:37.880 --> 00:40:39.400 be honest, I don't know at the moment. I know what Dot and 594 00:40:39.559 --> 00:40:44.840 MAUI come out with a lot of new technologies and that kind of hyperphone development. 595 00:40:45.719 --> 00:40:49.559 I would assume looking down to being native devices is key, you know, 596 00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:52.719 for that kind of testing, production based application. I mean a minimum, 597 00:40:52.800 --> 00:40:57.000 you could go through the Hockey app pipeline and push it onto a device. 598 00:40:57.920 --> 00:41:02.559 I don't know how fast that is. I have used a USB over 599 00:41:02.679 --> 00:41:08.199 network tool too that I installed on my VM and my local machine that sort 600 00:41:08.199 --> 00:41:14.440 of passed through over USB access to my phone, my local phone. It 601 00:41:14.480 --> 00:41:17.760 only worked on Android apples. A little more persnicity about stuff like that, 602 00:41:20.079 --> 00:41:23.599 and it's also just takes more time, right yeah, yeah, But anyway, 603 00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:28.360 I think that you may have to push through the build pipeline to get 604 00:41:28.400 --> 00:41:30.960 auto device. Yeah, when it's a remote instance like that, now, 605 00:41:31.000 --> 00:41:34.920 I mean there's an upside to that, which is it's the same build process 606 00:41:34.920 --> 00:41:37.320 that you would do to go push to the store and so so it's kind 607 00:41:37.320 --> 00:41:39.559 of legit. It's just a question of how long it takes. Like you 608 00:41:39.639 --> 00:41:45.559 can't beat USB cable plugged into phones sitting in front of you on your desktop 609 00:41:45.679 --> 00:41:51.880 when we're alrighty struggling for you know, development velocity for mobile. Yeah, 610 00:41:52.519 --> 00:41:55.119 I would assume the evolution goes that route, right. The hybrid phone development 611 00:41:55.239 --> 00:41:59.840 is has been growing over the years, you know, MAUI has made that 612 00:42:00.039 --> 00:42:04.000 first class citizen, you know, with the point too where you don't necessarily 613 00:42:04.119 --> 00:42:08.239 to build these out in native languages. But yeah, I could see that 614 00:42:08.280 --> 00:42:13.679 going heavily into the future because I was always laughing my friends talking about dead 615 00:42:13.719 --> 00:42:15.559 boxes, like you can now kind of change the world from your grandma's penny 616 00:42:15.599 --> 00:42:19.119 and two machine if you have a modern browser on it, right, right, 617 00:42:19.159 --> 00:42:22.360 because you don't need that type of compute. Yeah, and so it 618 00:42:22.400 --> 00:42:25.119 opens up all kinds of possibilities, you know when you think about that. 619 00:42:25.400 --> 00:42:29.400 And I mean, I use the term hockey app, but that's not even 620 00:42:29.400 --> 00:42:32.119 a thing anymore. I think it's just called mobile apps now. As a 621 00:42:32.159 --> 00:42:37.440 service inside of Azure, that's supposed to be all of those you know, 622 00:42:37.639 --> 00:42:42.880 sign on integration push services that kind of thing. Yeah, it's been a 623 00:42:42.880 --> 00:42:45.239 bit since I've been in it. I know, I used Cordova and phone 624 00:42:45.239 --> 00:42:47.920 gap back the day when I was doing some of my hybrid development, and 625 00:42:49.360 --> 00:42:53.119 I just remember old school, but I remember having multiple laptops and iPads and 626 00:42:53.239 --> 00:42:58.760 tablets. Yeah, and you had to like link them remotely and that connection 627 00:42:58.800 --> 00:43:01.400 would always break and wondering why you're not getting the latest bits on the device, 628 00:43:01.559 --> 00:43:06.880 and you know, it's it's been exciting to see from my perspective, 629 00:43:06.960 --> 00:43:10.480 like dot net MAUI coming in and that evolution of that stack. And when 630 00:43:10.519 --> 00:43:14.119 I think, you know, if I'm not doing anything that I need a 631 00:43:14.280 --> 00:43:19.840 native access to the phone. Hybrid phone application is where I first would look. 632 00:43:20.639 --> 00:43:24.239 Yeah, talking about you know, being able to use your C sharp 633 00:43:24.320 --> 00:43:30.119 skill set and I'm a C sharp developer and just being able to open up 634 00:43:30.119 --> 00:43:34.199 the project and get going quickly. And then they're hybrid integration with Blazer and 635 00:43:34.280 --> 00:43:38.719 bringing that into from that web tech. It's talk about agility. That's it's 636 00:43:38.760 --> 00:43:44.119 it's been fantastic and it just keeps getting better. Yeah, I'm just not 637 00:43:44.320 --> 00:43:46.880 though that we're all the way there yet. No, No, I mean 638 00:43:46.960 --> 00:43:52.440 recently they just release the media elements to the dot neet mallue where you can 639 00:43:52.440 --> 00:43:55.239 actually stream video files. And so I think that's a big heavy, you 640 00:43:55.280 --> 00:43:59.119 know, blocker for a while because there's a lot of applications to utilize that 641 00:43:59.239 --> 00:44:01.079 medium. Yea, but yeah, yeah, there's a lot of heat growing 642 00:44:01.119 --> 00:44:04.599 behind it, a lot of momentum too, So it's exciting to see. 643 00:44:05.400 --> 00:44:09.119 Well and you know, my better no framework about Apple Safari is encouraging too, 644 00:44:10.239 --> 00:44:20.639 and a lot more helpful than people realize for allowing allowing people to go 645 00:44:20.719 --> 00:44:25.480 down that path of progressive web applications without restrictions which we've been having to put 646 00:44:25.559 --> 00:44:30.760 up with to this point. Love it kind of cock back about this velocito 647 00:44:30.280 --> 00:44:34.719 for a developer, you know, with modern day clouds, it's it's coming 648 00:44:34.719 --> 00:44:37.400 in a point too where you are involved in infrastructure, whether you like it 649 00:44:37.480 --> 00:44:40.760 or not, the cloud and who manages that from a think of it from 650 00:44:40.760 --> 00:44:45.599 a company perspective, who's managing the cloud and those costs and in the worries 651 00:44:45.639 --> 00:44:49.400 they may have. I've never met any CFOs like I don't care where our 652 00:44:49.400 --> 00:44:51.800 spend goes. Just do what you need to do. We want to build 653 00:44:51.800 --> 00:44:54.320 a product. Yeah, you know, they always have some sort of handholds 654 00:44:54.360 --> 00:44:58.920 on it. And so there are various steps we can take to this cloud 655 00:44:58.960 --> 00:45:02.639 governance perspective of four developers that may not directly relate, you know, something 656 00:45:02.639 --> 00:45:07.480 as simple as like as your policies and being able to put in policies so 657 00:45:07.480 --> 00:45:13.559 we're not deploying in random, unapproved regions, or we have certain skews allowable. 658 00:45:14.039 --> 00:45:15.840 So I think you could code to that manually. I'm sorry, did 659 00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:22.039 you say as your policy was simple? Yeah? What's you know? You 660 00:45:22.199 --> 00:45:27.840 learn the learning curve relatively, you know, like it's easy once I know 661 00:45:27.920 --> 00:45:30.079 it. Yeah, but it's kind of one of those layers, right, 662 00:45:30.079 --> 00:45:35.360 you have that as your policy built in to help guard rail. I always 663 00:45:35.400 --> 00:45:37.719 think of it as the bumper lanes on like if you're ever going bowling, 664 00:45:37.800 --> 00:45:39.719 you ever popped up those bumper lanes to make sure you don't gut or ball 665 00:45:40.119 --> 00:45:43.760 you're you know, on your role, And that's kind of the same things 666 00:45:43.760 --> 00:45:46.920 we're doing here in the cloud for the developer, and it prevents, you 667 00:45:46.920 --> 00:45:52.079 know, helps the business. Like said, it prevents offset costs as you're 668 00:45:52.119 --> 00:45:55.280 tagging. Is another thing on top of as your policy where we can monitor 669 00:45:55.280 --> 00:46:00.840 and maintain what resources actually being built out in the cloud. And so if 670 00:46:00.840 --> 00:46:06.559 you have a certain scenario in your business about you know cash, but you 671 00:46:06.599 --> 00:46:12.000 know chargebacks for infrastructure and you manage you offer subscriptions your clients, you can 672 00:46:12.039 --> 00:46:15.719 now manage that and you know what's going on there. And that brings a 673 00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:17.679 developer of loss, you know, knowing what people or your developers are building 674 00:46:17.679 --> 00:46:22.880 out and then tagging that and knowing where it's sitting. Right again, another 675 00:46:22.880 --> 00:46:25.559 thing it's automated through that devth center too, of building out these environments through 676 00:46:25.559 --> 00:46:30.320 that infrastructure's code and set all those up and so you can pop up for 677 00:46:30.400 --> 00:46:35.840 one developer fourteen sandbox environments and everyone's comfortable where they're at because we have the 678 00:46:35.840 --> 00:46:38.880 security around it, we have the networking around we have the r back permissions 679 00:46:38.920 --> 00:46:45.280 around it for a user and those interacting with it. Access control, Yes, 680 00:46:45.400 --> 00:46:47.719 the role bays as control for users whether you know there need to read 681 00:46:47.760 --> 00:46:52.079 those resources or actually contribute to them and interact with them, deploy to them. 682 00:46:52.880 --> 00:46:57.519 So I mean part of those policies would be this stuff turns off after 683 00:46:57.559 --> 00:47:00.960 work is over, Like how do we think I'm looping us back to the 684 00:47:00.960 --> 00:47:02.360 beginning there where it's like, hey, don't leave all these things on. 685 00:47:02.480 --> 00:47:07.119 We now have the dev center. We have a center, Like we have 686 00:47:07.159 --> 00:47:09.280 all these great tools, but they're also going to help us clean up, 687 00:47:09.400 --> 00:47:13.880 right yeah, yeah, and we can set those One of those features too, 688 00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:16.199 is from these projects when they're completed, you know, we've built them 689 00:47:16.239 --> 00:47:20.719 out, they're running. That project's done, we commit the code to that 690 00:47:21.239 --> 00:47:23.360 the main branch. Do you go to production when that project is done, 691 00:47:23.400 --> 00:47:28.119 we end it. It'll remove that infrastructure too, so you don't have those 692 00:47:28.280 --> 00:47:31.760 orphaned resources yeah, just sitting there, you know, with cost or potentially 693 00:47:31.800 --> 00:47:37.000 just I see a tactic a lot of people say, well fixed scales down 694 00:47:37.039 --> 00:47:38.719 to zero, we just leave it because it doesn't charge us money. But 695 00:47:38.800 --> 00:47:42.960 then you just you have a mess though you have a huge cattle. Heard 696 00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:45.480 of cattle sitting around not being used, you know. So well, I 697 00:47:45.519 --> 00:47:49.880 like the idea of using tagging to say this is actually a dev resource, 698 00:47:50.719 --> 00:47:53.000 so it's like if no dev is currently going on, this probably shouldn't be 699 00:47:53.039 --> 00:47:57.480 here anymore. Yeah. Well, and even when we build out those resources 700 00:47:57.519 --> 00:48:00.239 from devs the dev center, it builds it out in a resource group too, 701 00:48:00.280 --> 00:48:04.039 so it kind of already groups them together as well, so it's just 702 00:48:04.079 --> 00:48:07.320 easy to organize and maintain, especially if you're working through the portal. One 703 00:48:07.360 --> 00:48:09.800 of the hardest things that I've had to do in the portal is go through 704 00:48:10.039 --> 00:48:15.320 some old resources and wonder, is anybody else besides me using this? This 705 00:48:15.440 --> 00:48:19.280 was like something I can't remember what this was, and you're afraid to delete 706 00:48:19.320 --> 00:48:22.840 the resource because yeah, yeah, what was that hasn't been used in two 707 00:48:22.920 --> 00:48:27.960 years? Is it? Delete it? And then production goes down. Yeah. 708 00:48:28.199 --> 00:48:31.480 Easiest way to get a phone call when you're feeling lonely just delete a 709 00:48:31.519 --> 00:48:37.760 couple of resources and wait, look they let me again. Job security. 710 00:48:38.239 --> 00:48:44.000 You missed me, didn't you. Yeah, just for one little right click 711 00:48:44.159 --> 00:48:50.360 stop, there we are, Here comes the love. Yeah. But it 712 00:48:50.440 --> 00:48:52.760 was as funny as that joke is. It's true, though, how easy 713 00:48:52.800 --> 00:48:55.639 it is to build out and how easy it is to ruin something that's you 714 00:48:55.639 --> 00:48:59.800 know, stub your toe. Well, yeah, and that's I think one 715 00:48:59.800 --> 00:49:02.519 thing too with his automation, that it's not only to have that velocity move 716 00:49:02.599 --> 00:49:06.159 forward, but also to make sure you don't hurt yourself or your team as 717 00:49:06.159 --> 00:49:09.360 you're moving forward, which is going to increase that velocity as well. Yeah, 718 00:49:09.400 --> 00:49:15.599 Brian, can you share any training or documentation or video resources that we 719 00:49:15.639 --> 00:49:17.400 can point our listeners too if they want to learn more about this? Yeah, 720 00:49:17.519 --> 00:49:21.519 yeah, I'll send you some links. I know John Saville, he's 721 00:49:21.559 --> 00:49:25.599 a cloud sosition architect as well. He has a fantastic YouTube series really breaks 722 00:49:25.639 --> 00:49:29.400 down in the details a lot of what goes on in Azure, but he 723 00:49:29.440 --> 00:49:35.960 addresses kind of the infrastructure's code and DevOps perspective specifically. He's a fantastic resource 724 00:49:36.199 --> 00:49:38.719 for those great cool I know who Johnny is, the big guns guy. 725 00:49:39.239 --> 00:49:43.400 And what's next for you, Brian? What's in your inbox? You know? 726 00:49:43.519 --> 00:49:49.280 For me, I've always been struggled to kind of keep on a blog 727 00:49:49.400 --> 00:49:53.199 and you know, podcasts always like the ideas and so the consistency has been 728 00:49:53.199 --> 00:49:57.199 hard to keep up. So I'm kind of aiming for starting to write a 729 00:49:57.199 --> 00:50:00.480 book on leadership and debt do it? Yeah? Sorry, it's a little 730 00:50:00.480 --> 00:50:04.000 book, a little book, right, let's just say that out loud, 731 00:50:04.079 --> 00:50:08.559 Richard. Yeah, sorry. You know. Wherever my my journey leads me 732 00:50:08.599 --> 00:50:13.000 to help continue on working with the development community, I really enjoy I love 733 00:50:13.039 --> 00:50:16.280 watching young developers, new people in the field, and just have that lightbulb 734 00:50:16.320 --> 00:50:20.440 goal off like, oh, look at the potential, you know, and 735 00:50:21.199 --> 00:50:24.960 so whatever means, whether it's conferences or more podcast like this, I would 736 00:50:24.960 --> 00:50:28.760 love to be a part of the help great, awesome. Hey, thanks 737 00:50:28.760 --> 00:50:31.440 for spending this time with us. It sounds sounds like really good stuff. 738 00:50:31.519 --> 00:50:35.519 Thank you, Thank you. Looking forward to checking it out and we'll talk 739 00:50:35.559 --> 00:51:00.519 to you next time on dot net rocks dot net rock. This is brought 740 00:51:00.519 --> 00:51:05.639 to you by Franklin's Net and produced by Pop Studios, a full service audio, 741 00:51:05.760 --> 00:51:09.480 video and post production facility located physically in New London, Connecticut, and 742 00:51:09.639 --> 00:51:15.480 of course in the cloud online at pwop dot com. Visit our website at 743 00:51:15.519 --> 00:51:22.679 dt n et r ocks dot com for RSS feeds, downloads, mobile apps, 744 00:51:22.840 --> 00:51:25.800 comments, and access to the full archives going back to show number one, 745 00:51:27.360 --> 00:51:30.039 recorded in September two thousand and two. And make sure you check out 746 00:51:30.079 --> 00:51:34.760 our sponsors. They keep us in business. Now go write some code, 747 00:51:35.320 --> 00:51:37.440 see you next time. We got van