1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:07,200 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,719 --> 00:00:12,039 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,000 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,239 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,640 murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together 6 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:28,440 with Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a 7 00:00:28,519 --> 00:00:32,439 researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social 8 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:37,759 media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 9 00:00:37,799 --> 00:00:47,759 in crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to mind Over Murder. I'm Kristin Dilley 10 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:51,920 and I'm Bill Thomas, and we are recording right before we get to go 11 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:56,280 to Savannah Crime Expo. And we are psyched, aren't we, Bill Thomas, 12 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,439 we are. I'm hard pressed to figure out how that all happened so 13 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:03,040 quickly, but here it is September and Savannah climax Bow is upon us. 14 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,719 We are really looking forward to this opportunity to hang out with some of the 15 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:14,000 top forensic minds. Doctor Henry Lee is going to be there. You've met 16 00:01:14,079 --> 00:01:15,959 him, though, I think I have. I have. I've even had 17 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:19,920 my picture taken with him, and he's a lovely guy. Yeah, I 18 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:22,640 have not had a chance to meet him. I am looking forward to it. 19 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:26,120 So there's going to be all sorts of excellent forensic guests there and a 20 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:30,799 lot of our fellow colleagues in true crime podcasting. So I think it's going 21 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:34,599 to be a great time. And I get to see Savannah for the first 22 00:01:34,599 --> 00:01:38,040 time, which I have never seen. I have been to Savannah once and 23 00:01:38,079 --> 00:01:42,719 it is quite beautiful. Hopefully we'll have a little downtime, so tell the 24 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:49,000 folks about Savannah, Climax Bow. So Savannah Crime Expo is in Savannah, 25 00:01:49,079 --> 00:01:52,799 and it is going to be an absolutely wonderful time. It is a one 26 00:01:52,879 --> 00:01:56,680 day expo, so this is not like Crime Con unfortunately, but it is 27 00:01:56,799 --> 00:02:02,680 one full day of different panels about the forensic aspects of true crime specifically, 28 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:08,919 So it is going to be one excellent event after another during the day. 29 00:02:09,199 --> 00:02:14,599 And as soon as we heard about Savannah Crimeax bo, I know, I 30 00:02:14,599 --> 00:02:16,879 immediately jumped on you and was like we gotta go. Yes, what we 31 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:23,800 do, and all of this is happening Saturday, September twenty fifth in Savannah, 32 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:27,439 Georgia, and it's going to be fantastic. So if you're in the 33 00:02:27,479 --> 00:02:30,919 area or in the region, hit there now. Yes, definitely, check 34 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:35,319 Savannah Crimexpo dot com to see if there are still tickets available. We're going 35 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:37,960 to be there. Our good friend Mac is going to be there. Doctor 36 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:40,800 Henry Lee is going to be there. It's gonna be great fun, Doctor 37 00:02:40,879 --> 00:02:46,280 Laura Pettler, Cheryl McCollum, and many other podcasters who are going to be 38 00:02:46,319 --> 00:02:51,919 there as well. So it's a very interesting group of investigators, scientists, 39 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,000 forensic experts. It's going to be pretty cool. Yeah, it's gonna be 40 00:02:55,080 --> 00:03:00,800 great. We're looking forward to that. And so the week that this airs, 41 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:05,800 we will be headed to Savannah. On Friday, I'm taking two days 42 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:08,199 off school so that I can drive down on one and drive back up the 43 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:13,599 other and spend some time in Savannah with my partner in true crime. That's 44 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:16,840 true. Savannah Crime Expo, Saturday, September twenty fifth, Be there or 45 00:03:16,879 --> 00:03:20,159 be squared And if you are there, to take a look for us. 46 00:03:20,159 --> 00:03:23,000 We do have a booth. We're going to have merch and a great big 47 00:03:23,039 --> 00:03:27,159 banner and all sorts of wonderful stuff, so you'll be able to find us. 48 00:03:27,159 --> 00:03:30,280 Just look for us. Absolutely, and we've gotten some nice notes from 49 00:03:30,439 --> 00:03:35,240 other true crime podcasters and other folks saying, oh, I'm so looking forward 50 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:38,120 to meeting you guys and that kind of thing, which is really nice. 51 00:03:38,319 --> 00:03:42,560 We look forward to hopefully seeing some of you as well. Yeah, absolutely, 52 00:03:42,639 --> 00:03:46,000 So come have a selfie or something with us. I hate selfiees, 53 00:03:46,039 --> 00:03:47,800 but I'll do it for my fans. My fans ask for it, and 54 00:03:47,879 --> 00:03:53,199 I will do it. Why not? Why not? We do want to 55 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:57,759 continue to give a shout out to our friends at T Public who continue to 56 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:01,400 have sales on a fairly regular basis, so that all of you find people 57 00:04:01,439 --> 00:04:04,759 who have not yet bought your Mind Over Murder merchandise, you can buy it 58 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:09,159 and at a discounted price. Yeah, it seems to happen pretty regularly, 59 00:04:09,199 --> 00:04:14,120 and we love that about T Public. So T shirts, mugs, stickers, 60 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:18,480 hoodies, bags, onesies for the little kids and really little kids, 61 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:26,399 phone protector holder thingies, poncases. Yeah, they've got all kinds of stuff. 62 00:04:26,399 --> 00:04:30,519 They've got notebooks, you name it. They've got it with the mind 63 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:35,279 over Murder logo, and we have two different ways for you to have these 64 00:04:35,319 --> 00:04:39,800 items imprinted. Of course, you get to pick the color and the size 65 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:45,000 and the style. They have styles for women, men, soft cotton, 66 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:51,199 stiff cotton, lightweight, heavyweight, Like I like a heavyweight T shirt. 67 00:04:51,399 --> 00:04:56,759 Pamela, my partner, she likes the lightweight T shirts. It's all about 68 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:00,000 your personal preference, so you can spec your items your way, and then 69 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,839 you have two different logos to choose from. One says mind over Murder with 70 00:05:03,879 --> 00:05:08,560 our thumb logo, and then the other one says mind over Murder. And 71 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:13,079 then at the top and the bottom we added true crime podcast so that way 72 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:16,079 you don't have to answer that question, what's mind over Murder all about? 73 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:20,079 Then it gets started with, oh, I see it's a true crime podcast. 74 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:25,120 Tell me more. And then you can tell your friends or whoever staring 75 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:30,160 at you at the grocery store, what exactly is going on with your hoodie, 76 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:35,079 sweatshirt, T shirt? What have you? It sounds really excellent and 77 00:05:35,399 --> 00:05:39,720 you can get any type of T shirt you want. I just ordered one 78 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:46,720 that is red with our cool yeah, old fashioned choice. Yeah, I 79 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:49,040 have one in light blue, and I have one in black, and so 80 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:53,959 now I figured let's just go ahead and try bright red. Wow, you're 81 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:58,160 much more fashion forward than I am. I have I don't know about that 82 00:05:58,399 --> 00:06:03,040 white and light gray jim shirt. Yeah, like gray. I will say 83 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:09,399 this and everyone remember this. Be you single or coupled up, Wearing mind 84 00:06:09,399 --> 00:06:13,519 Over Murder merchandise is a great way to meet interesting people in the produce section 85 00:06:13,959 --> 00:06:16,879 at the grocery store. That is probably true. And if you happen to 86 00:06:16,879 --> 00:06:20,959 be in a committed relationship like I am, you can smile and chat with 87 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:25,000 them. They might even be able to tell your smiling even through your mask. 88 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:28,839 And by the way, we do have mind Over Murder mask. Yes, 89 00:06:29,759 --> 00:06:31,839 I don't have one of those yet. No, I don't have one 90 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:34,839 either, but I think I'm going to order one more, probably not to 91 00:06:34,879 --> 00:06:38,279 wear one I'm at school, because I don't want people to be like, 92 00:06:38,399 --> 00:06:42,839 why are you chewing podcast merchandise in school? Why are you promoting your podcast 93 00:06:42,879 --> 00:06:49,120 while teaching America's youth. Yeah, I think I might want to get a 94 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:51,720 mind Over Murder mask. You know, Yeah, me too. We'll see 95 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:56,800 if we can get it here in time for Savannah cromex Bow. Why not. 96 00:06:57,079 --> 00:07:00,759 Thank you all very much for your ongoing support, and perhaps we should 97 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:05,480 get into our discussion a continued discussion from last week. We are picking up 98 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:12,800 with our discussion about Patricia Cornwell's novel All That Remains, which does seem to 99 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:17,120 be based on the Colonial Parkway murders. We started last week doing a comparative 100 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:21,720 analysis. My AP students would know that it is called a rhetorical analysis if 101 00:07:21,759 --> 00:07:26,279 they're listening and they're understanding what I'm saying, and I don't know that's the 102 00:07:26,279 --> 00:07:30,480 truth. Is this the part when I go harump and say, seems to 103 00:07:30,519 --> 00:07:35,639 be based on the Colonial Parkway murders. I'm judistick with seems to be based 104 00:07:35,639 --> 00:07:43,120 on the Colonial Parkway murders. Thank you counselor for keeping us out of jail 105 00:07:43,199 --> 00:07:46,120 or something. Yeah, you guys will note that we are trying very hard 106 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:48,759 not to incur the wrath of anybody with way more money than we have. 107 00:07:49,199 --> 00:07:56,079 So everything is seems to be or could be, or is possibly based on 108 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:59,800 but we're not sure, okay, so tell us more. Kristin Delhi, 109 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,639 we had left off and we both rolled our eyes at each other and says, 110 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:07,000 oh my gosh, we're only on chapter five when there's fourteen chapters. 111 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:11,360 It did stuff, though, so stay with us. I think it is. 112 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:13,319 Last time. When we left off, we did talk about the first 113 00:08:13,319 --> 00:08:22,480 four chapters of the novel and the striking resemblances between the fictional murders of Deborah 114 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:26,560 Harvey and Fred Cheney and the actual murders of Anna, Maria Phelps and Daniel 115 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:31,439 Lauer. Chapter five, I think is one of the more interesting ones in 116 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:35,200 the book because it does go into a I'm not going to say alarming amount 117 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:41,279 of detail, but a lot of detail that is very reminiscent of photos from 118 00:08:41,399 --> 00:08:45,600 the Phelps Lower crime scene that both of us have seen. Yeah, I 119 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:50,159 would say that's quite true. So for chapter five, Kay and Pete Marino 120 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:54,919 do get called into the woods to respond to the call to recover the bodies 121 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:58,600 of Deborah Harvey and Fred Cheney, and I think some of her best narrative 122 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:03,039 power here are on display because she goes into quite a lot of detail about 123 00:09:03,039 --> 00:09:07,799 this particular crime scene. It matches up as I said earlier, I think 124 00:09:07,879 --> 00:09:13,840 pretty well with the photos that we have seen from the Phelps Lower crime scene, 125 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:20,559 even right down to the descriptions of investigators in foul weather gear and wearing 126 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:24,480 boots, trumping the woods in the middle of a rainy afternoon. And I 127 00:09:24,519 --> 00:09:28,279 know most folks have not seen the crime scene photos thankfully, although yeah, 128 00:09:28,639 --> 00:09:33,559 some of the crime scene photos actually have appeared in public. Kristen, you 129 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,879 actually put up a photograph from the crime scene which shows them the real life 130 00:09:37,919 --> 00:09:45,080 investigators and Marcella Fierro, the chief medical Examiner for the Commonwealth of Virginia, 131 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:50,360 upon whom the case Scarpetta character is based. They show them really out in 132 00:09:50,399 --> 00:09:54,120 the woods wearing their foul weather gear, and so the descriptions from the book 133 00:09:54,240 --> 00:10:00,679 are extremely close to reality. We have the bodies relying to each other, 134 00:10:00,759 --> 00:10:03,120 face down, in a small clearing about a quarter of a mile from the 135 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:07,799 muddy logging road where we left our cars. They were so badly decomposed they 136 00:10:07,799 --> 00:10:13,080 were partially skeletonized. The long bones of arms and legs protruded like dirty gray 137 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:18,879 sticks from rotted clothing scattered with leaves. Skulls were detached and had been nudged 138 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:22,600 or rolled, probably by small predators of foot or two away. It is 139 00:10:22,639 --> 00:10:26,440 easy to read that description and imagine corresponding crime scene photos if you have seen 140 00:10:26,519 --> 00:10:31,799 them, or if you have watched episode four of The Lovers Lane Murders, 141 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:37,480 which does cover the phelpslowercase and which does unfortunately include some of those crime scene 142 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:41,600 photos. She does include some details that are true only to the murders in 143 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:45,840 the book, not to actual real life. She describes both bodies as having 144 00:10:45,919 --> 00:10:48,519 neither shoes nor socks on. That is not true to the best of our 145 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:54,240 knowledge, and Deborah Harvey is shown having a purse with her at the scene. 146 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:56,360 Again to the best of our knowledge, that is not true of the 147 00:10:56,360 --> 00:11:03,000 Phelpslower crime scene. Anna Maria did have two purses with her, and neither 148 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:07,799 of them were found with her remains or were recovered with her body. Scarpetta 149 00:11:07,879 --> 00:11:11,399 does go into cause of death, at least as far as she is able 150 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:13,960 to. She says, as for what happened to the couple, I could 151 00:11:15,039 --> 00:11:18,879 not tell. There were no ligatures indicating strangulation. I saw no obvious fractures 152 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:22,720 or holes that might have meant blows or bullets. Male and female were quietly 153 00:11:22,799 --> 00:11:26,159 together in death. The bones of her left arm slipped under his right, 154 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:30,360 as she had been holding on to him at the end. Empty eye sockets 155 00:11:30,399 --> 00:11:35,039 gaping as rain moved over their skulls. I mean, very evocative photo there, 156 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:37,159 you can picture it. I can almost match it up with some of 157 00:11:37,159 --> 00:11:43,279 the crime scene photos. We never do have a conclusive cause of death for 158 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:48,480 Daniel and Anna Maria. It was determined that Anna Maria was stabbed because there 159 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:54,519 was a slice mark on the bone in her hand, and they do go 160 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:58,639 a little bit more into depth on that later in the book when Scarpetta has 161 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:01,720 to take the bones from Deborah r to the Smithsonian Institute. But we do 162 00:12:01,799 --> 00:12:05,159 not have an actual cause of death for either Anna Maria or Daniel. It 163 00:12:05,279 --> 00:12:09,759 is just listed as homicide. The Smithsonian detail, though, is exactly what 164 00:12:09,919 --> 00:12:15,399 happened in real life. So here again we have this very strong parallel between 165 00:12:15,399 --> 00:12:18,559 what it's supposed to be a work of fiction and what we know to be 166 00:12:18,639 --> 00:12:22,759 the real story of Anna Maria Phelps and Daniel Lower's death. We don't know 167 00:12:22,919 --> 00:12:28,159 everything, but for instance, it's very striking that the Smithsonian is utilized to 168 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:33,840 analyze the bones and that a nick mark is found on the fictional character Deborah 169 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:39,960 Harvey's left index finger, which lines up pretty closely with our real life experience 170 00:12:39,039 --> 00:12:43,759 in the Phelps lower murder. Absolutely, and we did find out through some 171 00:12:43,039 --> 00:12:50,279 reporting that the doctor at the Smithsonian who did examine Anna Maria Phelps's fingerbone was 172 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:54,039 a gentleman by the name of doctor Douglas Uba Laker, and he did determine 173 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:58,519 that there was a knife slice to her finger. Through chapter six, there 174 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:05,240 is more about that Smithsonian detail, and you get a sense of where the 175 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:11,840 story is going to go in terms of resolution when they start delving into potential 176 00:13:11,879 --> 00:13:16,600 theories. Last episode we covered some of the different theories that have come up 177 00:13:16,639 --> 00:13:20,200 about this case, some of which are true only to the world of the 178 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:24,360 book, and some of which are true in real life. Cornwell does create 179 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:31,600 a detail that exists only in fiction. We have absolutely no indication that this 180 00:13:31,639 --> 00:13:35,320 particular detail that we're about to talk about exists in real life. But she 181 00:13:35,399 --> 00:13:39,559 does create a calling card that is left by the killer at each of the 182 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:43,879 couple's crime scenes. That is, a Jack of Heart's playing card left on 183 00:13:43,919 --> 00:13:48,080 each of the bodies at each of the crime scenes. To the best of 184 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:50,720 our knowledge, and Bill, please correct me if I'm wrong, there is 185 00:13:50,879 --> 00:13:54,879 nothing even remotely similar to that in real life. Correct. No, I 186 00:13:54,879 --> 00:13:58,240 don't think so, certainly, never heard about it. So you do get 187 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:05,360 some political conspiracy type storylines in chapter six that deals with potential political motives for 188 00:14:05,519 --> 00:14:11,320 murdering Deborah Harvey as a retaliation for the work that her mother is doing as 189 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:16,559 the drugs are But there was a line that I particularly connected with in chapter 190 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:22,320 six. It's just a feeling that I sometimes get when I'm feeling paranoid about 191 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:26,080 this case and its chances of being solved, and it is a line that 192 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:28,720 comes from Abbey Turnbull, and I'll be interested to know if you ever feel 193 00:14:28,759 --> 00:14:33,799 this way about it. Bill. Abbey's line is I swear to God case 194 00:14:33,879 --> 00:14:37,480 something is being covered up, something the FBI, the government doesn't want the 195 00:14:37,519 --> 00:14:41,200 public to ever find out, you mark my words. Even if these killing 196 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:46,519 stop, these cases will never be solved if the FBI has their way about 197 00:14:46,519 --> 00:14:50,919 it. It's an interesting observation. On my darkest days, I can understand 198 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:58,159 what this fictional character Abbey is talking about. I had some conversations with a 199 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:03,639 well informed Holli who has been working with us on the Colonial Parkway murders for 200 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:09,799 decades recently, and I asked her if the FBI would ever fail to solve 201 00:15:09,799 --> 00:15:16,200 the Colonial Parkway murders because of their embarrassment about the Colonial Parkway murders, and 202 00:15:16,639 --> 00:15:20,440 sadly she said yes, and where the two of us were going in this 203 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:26,519 conversation was the following. Any fair tell of the Colonial Parkway murders story to 204 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:31,799 date results in a significant amount of embarrassment to the FBN. FBI has not 205 00:15:31,919 --> 00:15:37,279 solved this case, which will now stretch into thirty five years. This October 206 00:15:37,399 --> 00:15:43,159 that will be the thirty fifth anniversary of the first murder in the Colonial Parkway 207 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,519 murders, that of Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Doowski. And then further, they 208 00:15:46,559 --> 00:15:54,600 seem to have dropped the ball investigatively any number of times, well as failing 209 00:15:54,639 --> 00:16:00,960 to follow up on leads. Right now we are waiting for test results from 210 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:07,879 forensic evidence that was sent to the Quantico Lab one year ago. That's how 211 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:14,080 slow and what a low priority the Colonial Parkway murders in real life are turning 212 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:18,360 into. Further, there's no way around this. There are all of these 213 00:16:18,519 --> 00:16:23,919 problems clear problems in the Colonial Parkway murders. The lack of coordination with local 214 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:32,000 law enforcement, the obvious friction between departments, the way that other investigative agencies 215 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,799 have told us on and off the record that they were frozen out of the 216 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:40,279 Colonial Parkway murders. The FBI took the attitude where the FBI, you guys, 217 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:44,399 butt out, and so agencies that could have been helpful to the FBI 218 00:16:44,679 --> 00:16:49,519 were pushed aside by investigators from the bureau. And then we have the situation 219 00:16:49,639 --> 00:16:55,039 with the leaked crime scene photos. In two thousand and nine, that story 220 00:16:55,120 --> 00:17:00,200 broke about the FBI losing control of seventy eight hoglygraphic crime scene photos and failing 221 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:06,000 to follow up and collect those crime scene photos. Those photos are out in 222 00:17:06,039 --> 00:17:10,319 the public now. Obviously not every person that listens to this podcast around the 223 00:17:10,319 --> 00:17:14,599 world can see those photographs, but they're out there. Some of them are 224 00:17:14,599 --> 00:17:18,119 on the Worldwide Web, and some of them, if you know where to 225 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:22,160 look, are to be found. And it's very disturbing to me, as 226 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:26,400 the brother of a murder victim, that this has happened. As we talked 227 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:30,759 about a couple of weeks ago, we also have the embarrassment of Kathy and 228 00:17:30,839 --> 00:17:36,039 Becky's rape kits being thrown away and burned as medical waste eight years after the 229 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:41,119 fact, and Marcella Fierro again the real life case Scarpetta, the Chief Medical 230 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:44,799 Examiner for the Commonwealth of Virginia, said to me, mister Thomas, you 231 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:49,640 never throw away evidence in an unsolved murder case. The FBI had Kathy Thomas 232 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:56,319 and Rebecca Doowski's rape kits burned as medical waste eight years after their murders. 233 00:17:56,359 --> 00:18:02,920 This is unacceptable. So what you can see is problem after problem in the 234 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:08,279 Colonial Parkway murders investigation. What I find very painful and I struggle with this 235 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:15,279 is would the FBI fail to put resources into the Colonial Parkway murders investigation at 236 00:18:15,279 --> 00:18:21,640 this point because it's politically embarrassing to the FBI. I want to be proven 237 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:26,079 wrong, But the only way I'm going to be proven wrong is if the 238 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:30,279 FBI continues to put resources into this case. And let me tell you something. 239 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:37,160 Waiting a year, literally a year for forensic results, and now the 240 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:41,400 FBI has sent in additional evidence for testing, is that going to take a 241 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:47,039 year as well? They are moving at glacial speed in terms of this investigation. 242 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:52,559 And it really upset me several months ago for this long time colleague to 243 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:57,279 tell me that she's concerned that the FBI might not solve the Colonial Parkway murders 244 00:18:57,279 --> 00:19:03,720 because the Colonial Parkway murders are embarrassing for the Bureau. That is unacceptable to 245 00:19:03,799 --> 00:19:08,680 me. I agreed. When I read that quote from the Abbe Turnbull character, 246 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:12,559 I definitely marked it in my copy of the book, and I made 247 00:19:12,559 --> 00:19:17,640 sure to send it to you because there are times when I who am I'm 248 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:19,799 not a family member, but I have worked on this case for a while 249 00:19:19,799 --> 00:19:23,880 an hour seven years. I think if I feel this way at times, 250 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:29,440 I can't imagine what you all go through on a daily basis dealing with for 251 00:19:29,559 --> 00:19:32,640 your family and Beckys, it is thirty five years this year. I can't 252 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:34,079 even imagine it. As soon as I saw that, I was like, 253 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:37,559 yeah, let me let me send that to build and super bill things. 254 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:42,000 I talked at length with another family member from one of the other Colonial Parkway 255 00:19:42,079 --> 00:19:48,279 murders earlier today, and without getting into specifics, we talked twice at length 256 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:52,720 today and I'm not speaking for her, but I think she feels the same 257 00:19:52,759 --> 00:19:57,519 way. She is fed up and disgusted with the foot dragging and the endless 258 00:19:57,599 --> 00:20:03,960 excuses and the fact there's always a new case which we understand to be handed 259 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:10,960 thirty five years worth of excuses as to why our case is always the lowest 260 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:15,559 possible priority at the FBI. It's infuriating, it's insulting, it's unacceptable, 261 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:19,839 and the delays in the forensics lab are ridiculous too, especially when you consider 262 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:25,200 that the FBI has long said that Quantico is the top state of the art 263 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:29,680 forensics lab. Are you sure? Why do you need a year to test 264 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:33,400 a piece of evidence? Then? I will maintain that the quantical lab, 265 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:38,680 in my opinion, is grossly overwork and understaffed. Probably yeah, if something, 266 00:20:38,839 --> 00:20:44,319 I understand that an urgent case where lives are at stake is going to 267 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:48,480 take precedence over the Colonial Parkway murders. Our case is thirty one to thirty 268 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:52,160 four years old. I get it. I haven't lost my perspective completely. 269 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:59,720 But the idea that a low priority case like ours would take a year to 270 00:21:00,039 --> 00:21:03,359 at test results, I'm sorry, that's insane. I could see a month 271 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:07,319 or two, maybe three, or with everything else that's going on, I 272 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:14,160 understand that. I'm not expecting that a thirty plus year old murder case, 273 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:18,960 however heinous, is going to be the top priority for FBI Quantico. But 274 00:21:18,319 --> 00:21:23,960 a year, and every single time before that it was always at least six 275 00:21:25,039 --> 00:21:27,599 months, if not long. And I've been reminded so many times I can't 276 00:21:27,599 --> 00:21:33,000 even count anymore by FBI agents saying this is a cold case. And it's 277 00:21:33,039 --> 00:21:33,960 like, yeah, I know, I know, it's a cold case. 278 00:21:34,039 --> 00:21:37,440 You don't need to remind me every single time. How does a case grow 279 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:42,680 cold? It grows cold because it's not being given any kind of priority treatment. 280 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:48,079 You're listening to Mind over Murder. Will be right back after this word 281 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:55,640 from our sponsors. We're back here at Mind Over Murder. One of the 282 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:57,960 things that I like most about the next chapter of the book is that it 283 00:21:59,039 --> 00:22:02,920 does give us an opportunity to talk about something that you and I have had 284 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:07,039 a number of questions about prior to this, but that we haven't really gone 285 00:22:07,079 --> 00:22:11,359 into detail about, and that is the use of psychics in the Colonial Parkway 286 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:15,839 investigation. And we have had people both ask if that has been done, 287 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:22,680 and we have within recent memory head people offer to provide their services in this 288 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:26,599 way. So in chapter seven of All That Remains, you do have Scarpetta 289 00:22:26,599 --> 00:22:32,039 and Marino visiting a woman named Hilda Osomac, described as a psychic who has 290 00:22:32,079 --> 00:22:36,599 worked with the FBI before and who lives in South Carolina. As soon as 291 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,200 I read that name, I thought, I wonder if they mean Dorothy Allison. 292 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:45,480 Because Dorothy Allison was a New Jersey psychic. She was a housewife who 293 00:22:45,559 --> 00:22:51,039 just happened to have this particular rare gift, who did help law enforcement on 294 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:55,759 kidnapping and missing persons cases. In fact, she was consulted on some of 295 00:22:55,759 --> 00:23:00,400 the really big cases. She was consulted on Patty Hurst on Atlanta child murders. 296 00:23:00,799 --> 00:23:06,160 I know I'm missing a couple of big ones that Dorothy Allison. She 297 00:23:06,319 --> 00:23:11,400 was actually a psychic that the FBI was willing to approach and to take her 298 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:15,079 help. And so I thought it was very interesting that when she mentioned the 299 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:19,039 Hilda Alsame character, I immediately went to issus Dorothy Allison. Dorothy Allison in 300 00:23:19,079 --> 00:23:23,559 real life was not without controversy. Some people were very critical of her. 301 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:29,839 They felt that she tended to focus on the highest profile cases and really put 302 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,839 herself out there in a way as to increase her visibility. Interestingly, for 303 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,839 the most part, except for paying her expenses, which were pretty limited, 304 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:42,920 he watched the budget very carefully. She didn't accept fees for her work. 305 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:48,200 She did ask that they cover her travel expenses. She did do work on 306 00:23:48,319 --> 00:23:55,920 some very prominent cases, and I know that York Pacosa County now Major Ron 307 00:23:55,960 --> 00:24:02,000 Montgomery worked with Dorothy Allison, and she did consult on the Colonial Parkway murders. 308 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:07,720 I don't know a lot about what she said to the law enforcement investigators 309 00:24:07,759 --> 00:24:11,319 who worked this case. But we're actually going to try to circle back. 310 00:24:11,519 --> 00:24:15,640 Dorothy herself has passed away. Some of the family members and some of the 311 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:19,319 longtime investigators remember when she consulted on the case. We're going to try to 312 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:25,160 see if we can find out more about this. But the Hilda Osomac character 313 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:30,079 in all that remains appears to be based on the real life Dorothy Allison, 314 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,839 who did actually consult on the Colonial Parkway murders. And I did do some 315 00:24:34,079 --> 00:24:40,039 digging for I don't know if I've mentioned it before what my casebook actually looks 316 00:24:40,079 --> 00:24:45,200 like, but I do have a pretty large book of articles and reporting on 317 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,480 this case that I keep in chronological order in my room. And as soon 318 00:24:48,519 --> 00:24:51,039 as I heard Dorothy Allison, I was like, I think I have an 319 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,279 article about her. Let me check with digging through my file, and you 320 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:57,160 did, and I did. There is some reporting from the Daily Press from 321 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:03,079 June of nineteen eighty eight, and Ron Montgomery is quoted as saying that he 322 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:07,759 said, there are very few leads in this case. I don't think I 323 00:25:07,759 --> 00:25:11,240 will ever reveal what Dorothy has told me, which of course made me immediately 324 00:25:11,279 --> 00:25:15,279 go, oh, what does she tell you? Whid she tell you? 325 00:25:15,759 --> 00:25:18,640 Major Montgomery? Would you tell you? He may or may not tell us. 326 00:25:18,039 --> 00:25:22,559 We are in touch Major Montgomery, and we can ask the question. 327 00:25:22,599 --> 00:25:26,039 He doesn't have to answer it. He did say that he is impressed with 328 00:25:26,039 --> 00:25:30,079 her abilities and is willing to accept help from any place it comes from. 329 00:25:30,319 --> 00:25:33,680 So people have asked us before, have you considered a psychic? So yes, 330 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:38,119 a psychic has been considered and consulted. As to more than that, 331 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,920 Have we had more than one psychic on the case. I believe so. 332 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:47,200 Actually, there was a television series and again we are going back, but 333 00:25:47,279 --> 00:25:51,079 there is a television serials Sensing Murder, and I think that may have been 334 00:25:51,079 --> 00:25:55,000 Dorothy Allisons. I'm not sure. And there was another psychic who was also 335 00:25:55,119 --> 00:26:00,759 consultant. I think it maybe Dorothy Allison and another woman. I think both 336 00:26:00,759 --> 00:26:03,759 of them were consulted on the case. It's been a long time since that 337 00:26:03,839 --> 00:26:08,920 television show aired, and of course some of these independent television shows are hard 338 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:15,480 to find, and I'm not certain I've laid eyes on that Sensing Murder episode 339 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,079 since it ran many years ago. Now. I'm hoping though, that someone 340 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:23,200 who's listening can dig that up somehow or another. Maybe somebody recorded it, 341 00:26:23,279 --> 00:26:27,279 probably on VHS or Beta. Yeah, I think there's another one. Real 342 00:26:27,319 --> 00:26:32,279 Stories of the Highway Patrol did a piece on the Klio Parkway murders and I 343 00:26:32,279 --> 00:26:34,440 haven't been able to lay my eyes on that one either. Anybody happens to 344 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:37,920 have that one. I saw it when it aired and I don't think i've 345 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:42,839 seen it since. Oh. Speaking of television, the Lovers Lane Murders television 346 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:48,440 series is now appearing in more territories around the world. And we've got a 347 00:26:48,559 --> 00:26:52,480 very nice email which we haven't even had time to respond to yet from a 348 00:26:52,559 --> 00:26:57,000 listener to this podcast who is in Australia who's now just seen the television series, 349 00:26:57,079 --> 00:27:00,359 and that precipitated a bunch of questions, really good question, which is 350 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:04,319 why we haven't answered your email yet, and we do apologize, but for 351 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:11,680 our international listeners check now, because sometimes television series that appears in one territory 352 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,240 some six seven months later, and then we're right about at that time. 353 00:27:15,279 --> 00:27:19,880 Now we'll start to appear in other territories. There was an Australian series that 354 00:27:21,039 --> 00:27:25,880 some friends of mine consulted on about the Ivan Malat case, which is a 355 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:30,359 series of unsolved homicides down in Australia. And interestingly that series has just shown 356 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,640 up on A and E here in the United States, so I'll be making 357 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,039 some time to watch this Ivan Milat. It's like a three or four part 358 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:42,240 series on this unsolved Australian case. And now our Australian and New Zealand fans 359 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:48,799 can see the lovers Lane Murders television series on the Colonial Parkway murders. Hence 360 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:52,680 our inquiries from our friends down Under, and by the way, for people 361 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:56,759 who are seeing this for the first time, please do send us in your 362 00:27:56,839 --> 00:28:00,759 questions. Just because we've talked about the lovers Lane murders before, we are 363 00:28:00,759 --> 00:28:03,359 still happy to talk about it again and again. And people always have great 364 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:07,279 questions and their perspective is obviously going to be very fresh and they would have 365 00:28:07,319 --> 00:28:12,359 just seen the series, and we promise will be good about answering in replying 366 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:17,319 to questions for the next couple chapters. Of all that remains, you get 367 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:22,079 a lot more of the political conspiracy government sponsored murder subplot, a lot of 368 00:28:22,079 --> 00:28:26,920 the subpositions there continue to move forward through chapters eight and nine, and nothing 369 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:32,559 closely resembles real life or the case itself happens through those chapters. What is 370 00:28:32,599 --> 00:28:37,440 of note is chapter ten, where you get a return to the theory about 371 00:28:37,519 --> 00:28:42,720 the rogue CIA agent from Camp Perry that's stocking and murdering people. I will 372 00:28:42,759 --> 00:28:48,960 add something here though, but Richard Cornwall does a lot of research for her 373 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:56,240 books, and she's got fantastic real world connections to government agencies. For example, 374 00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:02,640 it's often mentioned that she has access at the highest level in various aspects 375 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,799 of the government, and so, for example, things that the average person 376 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:12,599 wouldn't have access to, like special training at FBI Quantico and direct access to 377 00:29:12,839 --> 00:29:19,279 key players within government agencies. There is something interesting that she outlines here, 378 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:26,240 which are the maneuvers and what would you call them, like exercises training? 379 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:33,240 Yeah, tell us about what Cornwell puts out here about the agents in training 380 00:29:33,519 --> 00:29:38,880 at CIA Camp Perry leaving and practicing some of the skills in public. What 381 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:41,680 is it? She says, they do? She says, I'm sure it 382 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:45,640 comes as no surprise that the CIA is privy to most of what goes on 383 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:49,759 around their training facility. They know a lot more than anyone might imagine, 384 00:29:49,839 --> 00:29:56,920 And in fact, local settings and citizens are routinely incorporated into maneuvers surveillance. 385 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:02,519 For example, officers in training at Camp Perry some practice surveillance using local citizens 386 00:30:02,519 --> 00:30:06,839 as guinea pigs for lack of a better term. Officers set up surveillance operations 387 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:11,759 in public places restaurants, bars, shopping centers. They tell people in cars 388 00:30:11,799 --> 00:30:15,160 on foot, take photographs, and so on. No one is ever aware 389 00:30:15,279 --> 00:30:17,960 this is going on, of course, and there's no harm done it except 390 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:21,839 the local citizens wouldn't be keen unknowing they're being tailed, watched, were captured 391 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:26,160 on film. And as someone who lives near Camp Perry, yikes. And 392 00:30:26,359 --> 00:30:30,680 for those of you who don't live nearby, Camp Perry is right there on 393 00:30:30,759 --> 00:30:36,599 the Colonial Parkway, a couple of miles away from the location where we believe 394 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,920 some of the Colonial Parkway murders took place. Growing up in this area, 395 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:45,039 Camp Perry has always been like the worst kept secret, because anybody who lives 396 00:30:45,079 --> 00:30:48,839 here and who works in the military or just has lived here long enough, 397 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,559 we know about Camp Perry. We know it's there. They're not trying to 398 00:30:52,599 --> 00:30:55,880 hide it. They're not saying don't look over here, and you won't see 399 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:59,599 a secret government military base. But it is. And it's not a secret 400 00:30:59,599 --> 00:31:03,440 that it's CIA's main training facility either, but it is very much like a 401 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:07,799 place that is shrouded in mystery. You can drive along on my thirty five 402 00:31:07,839 --> 00:31:11,559 minute commute home from my job. When I don't take the Parkway, I 403 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:17,119 do take Interstate sixty four, and that runs along the border of Camp Perry, 404 00:31:17,279 --> 00:31:21,640 and you can see the chain length fence separating sixty four from Camp Perry. 405 00:31:21,759 --> 00:31:25,880 You can see all of the patrol cars, the jeeps that Perry uses 406 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:30,880 that say Base Police or base patrol on them. It's pretty common over in 407 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,400 my neck of the woods, and I think in a lot of other people's 408 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,000 too, especially those along the Parkway, to hear when they're doing heavy ordinance 409 00:31:37,039 --> 00:31:40,640 practice. You can be sitting outside on the porch on a Saturday, it's 410 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:42,559 nice and sunny, you're reading the book, and you're hearing explosions, and 411 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,559 so that's Camp Perry. They're Camp Perry. They're just doing stuff over there. 412 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,519 I don't know what they're doing. They're blowing a lot of stuff up. 413 00:31:48,519 --> 00:31:52,680 I'm hoping they're practicing for World War three or something like that over there. 414 00:31:53,079 --> 00:31:56,279 It's not a secret, but it's a little alarming to hear that they 415 00:31:56,319 --> 00:32:00,440 may actually be out doing maneuvers. I don't like that. And helicopters fly 416 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:06,920 in and out of Camp Perry regularly. They also have a full size airport, 417 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:12,279 so heavy aircraft can fly in and out of Camp Perry undetected and often 418 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:16,240 do. The comings and goings and the activity behind the fence at Camp Perry 419 00:32:16,519 --> 00:32:21,559 are off limits to the public. There have been rumors for years. We're 420 00:32:21,599 --> 00:32:27,960 not buying into the rogue CIA theory, and I actually think that District Cornwell 421 00:32:28,039 --> 00:32:34,519 may be responsible for the promotion of that theory, that somehow this CIA agent 422 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:39,240 is responsible for the Colonial Parkway murders. This idea that agents and training leave 423 00:32:39,359 --> 00:32:46,400 the base and go out and practice some of the techniques, following people surreptitiously 424 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:50,599 taking pictures and that sort of thing. Over the years, I've heard that 425 00:32:50,799 --> 00:32:58,240 they would go to shopping centers and malls and they would go to colonial Williamsburg 426 00:32:58,279 --> 00:33:02,680 and downtown Williamsburg places like that and try these techniques out. They don't harm 427 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,519 the public or interact with the public really in any kind of direct way. 428 00:33:07,559 --> 00:33:13,480 As far as we know, they are supposedly out trying out their techniques. 429 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,359 And if that is the case, which we have no reason to doubt, 430 00:33:16,599 --> 00:33:22,359 it is really just only one step beyond that to this terrifying idea that what 431 00:33:22,519 --> 00:33:27,319 if somebody's out there practicing killing people? That's a place you don't want your 432 00:33:27,359 --> 00:33:30,559 mind to go. But I would say that any person in Williamsburg who has 433 00:33:30,599 --> 00:33:35,799 ever thought or expounded upon the theory what if it's a road camp Perry Agent, 434 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:38,440 I think it's pretty safe to say they probably got that idea from this 435 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:43,440 book, I would agree. And it is a really compelling story. It 436 00:33:43,519 --> 00:33:46,640 truly is. I hope that it is not true. I one percent hope 437 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:52,640 that it is not true. So how else does the book parallel? Really? 438 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:57,440 In chapter eleven, we do end up meeting a set of characters who 439 00:33:57,839 --> 00:34:04,160 are pretty similar to Thomas and Rebecca Dowski. In chapter eleven, is Scarpetta 440 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:08,280 and Marino are following this trail of hydroshock bullets that were pulled out of Daborah 441 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:14,039 Harvey. They find out that there was a couple named Jill Harrington and Elizabeth 442 00:34:14,119 --> 00:34:19,000 Mott who were murdered in Williamsburg eight years prior to the events of the book, 443 00:34:19,199 --> 00:34:23,320 in a manner that makes case Scarpetta very suspicious. The characters of Jill 444 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:30,480 Harrington and Elizabeth Mott are again they are similar enough to make you go but 445 00:34:30,519 --> 00:34:37,119 they are also they're not carbon copies. Their crime scene is very different from 446 00:34:37,199 --> 00:34:40,679 Kathy and Becky's crime scene. They're found shot to death in a cemetery on 447 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:45,280 a Friday night in September, as opposed to the circumstances of Kathy and Becky's 448 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:50,079 death, which was being found in the trunk of Kathy's car on the Parkway 449 00:34:50,079 --> 00:34:53,199 in October. But there are some similarities in terms of cause of death. 450 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:59,719 Both had knife injuries, they were both found at the wrists, and they 451 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:04,960 both disappeared after being seen at a bar called the Anchor Bar and Grill in 452 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:09,360 Williamsburg, which sounds pretty similar to me to the Yorktown Pub, which is 453 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:15,320 where there were unconfirmed reports putting Kathy and Becky before their murder. You also 454 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:19,880 have the description of both women as being fit and athletic, which we know 455 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,639 does apply both to Kathy and Becky. There is only one odd clue that 456 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:29,960 appears just in the book as opposed to anything that parallels real life. That 457 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:34,239 is that at the crime scene there is a copious amount of blood in the 458 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,519 backseat of the victim's car, and while there was blood in Kathy's car, 459 00:35:37,679 --> 00:35:42,599 it was not enough blood to indicate that either woman was killed in the car 460 00:35:43,079 --> 00:35:46,199 or that their assailant had injured themselves in the commission of the crime. The 461 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:52,639 characters of Jill Harrington and Elizabeth Mutt are definitely enough to give you pause. 462 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:57,280 Bills, since you are Kathy's brother, what were your thoughts when you first 463 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:02,800 read about this lesbian couple. There are some additional striking similarities. The Jill 464 00:36:04,159 --> 00:36:09,159 Harrington character is described as having defensive cuts to both far arms and hands, 465 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:15,039 contusions and lacerations on her face. Apparently she had put up one held the 466 00:36:15,159 --> 00:36:19,199 struggle, ending up with her being stabbed eleven times. Quoting from the book, 467 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:22,719 page two forty. The stabbed eleven times part is not accurate, but 468 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:29,840 those other descriptors are very close to how Kat was found. It does appear 469 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:36,119 that Kathy Thomas struggled with their attacker and ended up with a significant amount of 470 00:36:36,159 --> 00:36:39,360 violence aimed at her, perhaps as a result of her standing up for them. 471 00:36:39,639 --> 00:36:45,360 Although Becky in real life did not suffer as many wounds that would probably 472 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:52,400 originate from a struggle or a fight, this description of the Jill and Elizabeth 473 00:36:52,599 --> 00:36:59,719 characters does sound like Kathy and Becky's autopsies and descriptions of how they were found. 474 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:04,079 In the amount of violence directed at Kathy in particular, it really does 475 00:37:04,199 --> 00:37:07,039 sound similar, and in the next chapter we do get some more details about 476 00:37:07,079 --> 00:37:12,199 the women, and again they do not track one hundred percent with Kathy and 477 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,400 Becky, but they do have some similarity. Elizabeth was working in sales for 478 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:20,840 a local computer company and doing extremely well. Jill had just finished law school 479 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:23,000 at William and Mary and had gone to work for a small firm in Williamsburg. 480 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:27,719 Again, there's some pretty strong parallels. You know, Kathy was working, 481 00:37:28,079 --> 00:37:30,880 she had left the Navy a few months prior. She was working as 482 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:37,920 a stockbroker for a stock broke rage in Virginia Beach. And Becky in real 483 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,679 life was just wrapping up her senior year at William and Mary. So there's 484 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:46,199 some still some very strong parallels here. It almost reads like this is the 485 00:37:46,199 --> 00:37:52,480 Colonial Parkway Murders, with a few tweaks to the details just enough to shift 486 00:37:52,559 --> 00:37:58,760 it from the realm of nonfiction to fiction. There was a speech that Abbey 487 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:05,199 Turnbull, the character, has dealt with the loss of her sister to murder 488 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:09,159 several years previous, and so she makes this speech about living with the murder 489 00:38:09,199 --> 00:38:14,800 of her sister, which I think is designed to give the perspective of families 490 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:17,440 of murder victims. And of course when I read something like that, my 491 00:38:17,519 --> 00:38:22,840 first immediate thought is whether or not that does ring true? Are you and 492 00:38:22,079 --> 00:38:27,239 the other families? So she says, when you're going through something like this, 493 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,079 you don't know what you're doing, even if you think you do, 494 00:38:30,639 --> 00:38:34,800 and no one can really understand what it's like unless they've suffered the same thing. 495 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,320 You feel isolated. You go places and people avoid you, are afraid 496 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:42,360 to meet your eyes and make conversation because they don't know what to say. 497 00:38:42,639 --> 00:38:45,679 You feel as if you're living inside a cave. You're afraid to be alone, 498 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:47,719 afraid to be with others, afraid to be awake, afraid to go 499 00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:51,840 to sleep because of how awful it feels. When morning comes, you run 500 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:53,559 like hell and you wear yourself out. As I look back, I can 501 00:38:53,559 --> 00:38:58,559 see that everything since Hennah did was half crazy. Do you feel like she's 502 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:02,159 hit the nail on the head there or only some of it? I do. 503 00:39:02,639 --> 00:39:09,599 For years, I divided the world up into two categories, those that 504 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:16,440 knew Kathy and knew about our loss and everyone else. So that first group, 505 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:21,639 the people that knew Kathy and knew my family and therefore had known that 506 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,679 Kathey and Becky had been murdered, That became a finite group of people, 507 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:30,360 and then there was everyone else. For most of that time, I did 508 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:36,119 not talk about Kathy's murder, and that may be hard to believe now because 509 00:39:36,159 --> 00:39:39,800 I talked about it a lot. But for years, the whole topic of 510 00:39:40,039 --> 00:39:46,400 Kathy and Becky's murder felt like the ultimate conversation stopper fit came up in conversation 511 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:52,119 with people that didn't know Kathy and didn't know my family and didn't know the 512 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:59,800 story, it always felt like it brought the conversation to a screeching halt, 513 00:40:00,159 --> 00:40:05,000 and then people would ask questions they weren't being insensitive. I don't think they 514 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:09,519 were being rude, but it was really difficult then to move on from that 515 00:40:09,599 --> 00:40:15,199 subject. So picture yourself at a dinner party, and this was me. 516 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:17,960 Now, I'd be at a dinner party or a gathering or whatever, and 517 00:40:19,119 --> 00:40:23,679 if it came up, I'd WinCE inside because I would know that the next 518 00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:29,199 fifteen minutes if we were lucky, or three hours if we weren't, was 519 00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:36,639 going to end up being consumed by this conversay just seemed to bring everything to 520 00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:42,079 a screeching halt while we talked about this horrible thing that had happened. So 521 00:40:42,519 --> 00:40:45,760 a lot of times I would deflect. If it came up how many kids 522 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:50,599 were in my family, I would say three, which is not true. 523 00:40:50,639 --> 00:40:54,880 It's four. Kathy is the August of four, or I wasn't completely comfortable 524 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:59,800 with that. I would say four. But then if people said, oh, 525 00:41:00,079 --> 00:41:01,559 I know your brother, I know you both your brothers. Do you 526 00:41:01,559 --> 00:41:05,039 have another brother? Do you have another sister? I didn't want to deny 527 00:41:05,119 --> 00:41:08,760 her existence, but sometimes I would say I would often say she died in 528 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:14,480 an accident, or that's a conversation for another And most people are smart enough 529 00:41:14,519 --> 00:41:16,599 to figure out that you really don't want to talk about it sure, or 530 00:41:16,639 --> 00:41:20,360 sometimes I just smile and say I don't really want to talk about it, 531 00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,679 And again, most people are sensitive enough to realize I'm a grown man, 532 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:30,679 but I clearly don't want to talk about this right now, because it seemed 533 00:41:30,679 --> 00:41:36,079 to completely suck the oxygen out of the room every single time it came up, 534 00:41:36,159 --> 00:41:42,000 so until I got heavily involved in the case in two thousand and nine, 535 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:46,719 So for twenty three years, I didn't really talk about it except with 536 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:52,039 someone that knew Kathy from before. They might say, how you're doing, 537 00:41:52,199 --> 00:41:54,000 how are your parents? That kind of thing, how are your brother's doing? 538 00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:59,039 And they didn't just mean how's their health? They meant how are they 539 00:41:59,079 --> 00:42:04,280 coping? And then a lot of friends of mine who worked with me over 540 00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:07,320 the years in the music business and the entertainment business that knew me during those 541 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:13,480 twenty three years after Kathy died, but before I got more heavily involved in 542 00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:15,440 the case in two thousand and nine. I can't count how many people, 543 00:42:15,519 --> 00:42:19,920 hundreds of people have said to me I never knew this because I never talked 544 00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:23,760 about it. So I get what the fictional character of Abby is talking about. 545 00:42:24,159 --> 00:42:28,199 They're afraid to meet your eyes and make conversation because they don't know what 546 00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:31,719 to say. And I didn't want to be the person that people avoided. 547 00:42:32,199 --> 00:42:37,039 I have had some friends though, over the years that just could not deal, 548 00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:40,239 which made me very said one of my college roommates. I remember a 549 00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:44,880 few years after Kathy, we hadn't talked in a while, and he called 550 00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,559 to check in, and he knew my family and everything, and he didn't 551 00:42:47,559 --> 00:42:52,840 know about Kathy's death, and we were talking and I got to Kathy and 552 00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:57,800 I told him what had happened, and he just couldn't deal. And that's 553 00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:00,679 actually the last time I ever spoke to him. And I really like this 554 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:04,400 guy. I'd love to reconnect with him someday. I don't know. He 555 00:43:04,639 --> 00:43:07,480 clearly felt terrible and he felt awkward. I think it was over the phone, 556 00:43:07,599 --> 00:43:10,639 but we never spoke again, and all the years later, I've still 557 00:43:10,679 --> 00:43:14,960 never spoken to him. And I'm not mad at him or anything like that. 558 00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:16,360 As a matter of fact, I still consider him a good friend and 559 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:21,320 we were roommates senior year in college, and he's a fantastic person. I 560 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:23,920 would love to reconnect with him. But it ended on that really awkward note, 561 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:30,159 So that feeling like you can't bring this subject up without it sucking all 562 00:43:30,159 --> 00:43:35,679 the oxygen out of the room. I totally get where Abby is coming from. 563 00:43:36,119 --> 00:43:40,800 My guess is, by the way, this iswell's probably very well researched 564 00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:46,360 conversation. This feels like she's talking to someone that's really suffered this kind of 565 00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:52,199 loss. Yeah, and this rings very true for me, especially the first 566 00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:55,840 year after Cathy died. I barely remember while went on. A lot of 567 00:43:55,880 --> 00:44:02,440 what this Abbey character says fields pretty spot on for me. When you come 568 00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:07,679 in from someone who did have a friend who was murdered, it is weird 569 00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:13,039 trying to talk to the family of someone who has been murdered because you don't 570 00:44:13,079 --> 00:44:16,199 know what to say, right, You're trying to tread on eggshells. What 571 00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:21,639 is okay for me to say? Can I memorialize this person by talking about 572 00:44:21,679 --> 00:44:23,960 them or is it better not to? Can I mention the good, funny, 573 00:44:24,119 --> 00:44:28,320 interesting stories that I remember? Can I share photos? Or is it 574 00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:30,840 just better to tuck it away and not talk about it. It is really 575 00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:35,519 hard to know how to approach. The only suggestion I would make is to 576 00:44:35,559 --> 00:44:39,000 ask your friend and say, how do they feel about this sort of thing? 577 00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:44,840 If it makes it worse for them. Then perhaps you keep your conversation 578 00:44:45,039 --> 00:44:49,960 short. When people say there are no words, I think all you really 579 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:54,320 have to say if someone hits you with something like this is I'm so sorry. 580 00:44:54,519 --> 00:44:59,880 Yeah. I don't think it's necessary to draw a parallel between the law 581 00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:02,960 is in your life and these kind of profound losses, particularly, I think 582 00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:07,679 for parents who've lost loved ones, which is my mother said at the time, 583 00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:10,400 is out of the natural order of things. Funny, I was just 584 00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:16,280 reading over the weekend about siblings losing siblings like we've done, and the fact 585 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:23,239 that seems to be an underacknowledged profound loss. We're going to continue our analysis 586 00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:28,920 of Patricia Cornwell's All that Remains in our next episode. Thank you so much 587 00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:40,440 for listening to mind Over Murder, and we'll see you next time. Mind 588 00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:46,559 Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive 589 00:45:46,559 --> 00:45:52,880 producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 590 00:45:52,519 --> 00:45:57,960 Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. Mind Over Murder is distributed in 591 00:45:58,039 --> 00:46:01,960 partnership with Coral Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, 592 00:46:02,159 --> 00:46:07,519 or Instagram. You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway murders on 593 00:46:07,519 --> 00:46:12,199 Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas. 594 00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:15,519 Five six. Thank you for listening to Mind Over Murder.