The Carpentry Show with Robin Clevitt, powered by Festal's new innovative eighteen volt cordless
range from drills to sours, including dust extraction, all powered by eighteen volt
batteries. Discover the more at festal dot co dot UK. Welcome to The
Carpentry Show with Festal on fixed Radio. I'm Robin Clevitt with you for the
next hour. Something I get all the time from listeners, from followers of
mine on social media and YouTube is how do I know I'm charging enough?
And yes, it is the million dollar question to excuse the financial pun.
Okay, so it's not just newcomers to the trade that asked me this.
And with inflation and the cost of living crisis the way it is, we're
just having to adjust our prices more than ever. Now we're lucky we can
do that because we're self employed. In most cases, if you are employed,
your looks looking at the radio thinking I cannot do that. So on
today's show, I've got two guests with a wealth of experience to help give
some advice and I'll share some of my own thoughts on this too. So
the last week I have you know, as a carpenter as a creative.
It could be any kind of craftsperson. You make something, you stand back,
and even after thirty sort of seven years of practicing my craft, I
still get that buzz standing back and looking. I've been making this slatted wall
screen out of ply. Would believe it or not, it's a birch ply
alternative. I've mentioned it before a couple of times in the show. It's
called street tech, so it looks a little bit like birch PLI, especially
when you look at the cut edges. It's got loads of plies, very
few defects and corvoids, which means there's holes in between the plies. And
we've built a decorative slatted wall screen in my garden room with curved walls and
hidden doors, and it has just come out absolutely brilliantly. And I just
think that we should always remember why we came into this trade, even though
sometimes the money causes us headaches, which we are going to discuss. Sometimes
you need to step back and realize that we blessed with the ability to think
about something, make something fit something, creates something. And I think that
as much as we need money to survive, sometimes being mindful in the moment
and doing something like that is super important. I want to also want to
shout out at as well, because he's coming on so well, he's you
know, he I called him my apprentice. He's been with me two years
now, so he's kind of in his own writer carpenter. I'll give him
that, but he's also you know, doing some of the stuff I let
him do. I wouldn't let myself do that when I was his sort of
age. Anyway, I'll be joined by my first guest very soon. Fix
radio time to crack on. You're listening to the Carpentry Show with Festal.
I'm Robin Clevitt and joining me now is John Argyle, a carpenter with a
wealth of experience that operates in the West Midlands as m field refurbishments. What
would you say the day rate for a carpenter right now is okay? So
how much money is a carpenter worth? And is that in line with the
based expectations in the industry? Okay? So I would say yes if you
have experience, know if you don't, because you can start it as you
know, a really low rate. But I would have said I would have
said between two hundred and two hundred and fifty pounds the going rate now for
somebody with a round about ten to fifteen years worth of experience. I think
younger people all always want to earn more money, but certainly between two fifty
and three hundred would be if you're supplying a service. But I think a
chippy between two hundred and two fifty at the moment as I know it in
the Birmingham area. Yeah, and that's that's really interesting actually, because I
was sort of you know, if I had to write down a figure,
I would have been smack banging in the middle of that. I was expecting
you to say, I think, yeah, I think that's absolutely industry standard.
Actually, so I mean, and you're dead right though. What you've
just said then is the most important thing. If you're a time served tradesman
or your own tools and transport, and you can deliver the product or the
project or whatever, then yes, you're worth it. If you're come into
the industry, you've done a two year course. No offense to anyone who's
just coming and done a two year course, agree, but you need to
get the experience, and you need to get the speed up, and you
need to really sort of you know get on basically, but yeah, okay,
So talking about costs, how do you typically figure out your costs and
what you need to earn when you're pricing a job. So I've got a
couple of different systems I use. Some people wants to charge them per day.
Some people want us to charge them per job. So if I was
typically looking at doing a job that I knew would take me about three or
four days, I would price it on a week's worth of wages for me
and for my colleague. Now, she earns obviously less than me because she's
only been doing it for about five years, but because of what she brings
to the party as well, I charge that little bit more for her because
I think she's more capable although she's only been doing it for four or five
years. With me, I would charge a little bit more for her to
cover some other costs of transport. But and equally, I'll say it,
rob, if I'm doing a price job, then I would almost put another
hundred quid on top of my day rate. Then, because it's a job
that I've got to think about what happens if I'm a day over. Yeah,
if we get to the end of the job, and we can't complete
it because our xy is at or multiple contractors. You waited on that last
day to get it done. You should be done on the thursday, the
spark you should have turned up to up. You put the chaundelier up in
the conservatory or wherever it was, and he couldn't come into the Friday.
So then you've got to come back and the customers say, we were already
going to be here. It's that I call it the test goes too for
one effect, where they realize they think all of a sudden, oh,
he's going to be here anyway, whilst it's here, we can get him
to do some extra work for free. Yeah, I know. It's it's
an absolute classic that John. You've been in this game long enough to know
that that happens a hell of a lot, doesn't it. You know so,
And you're dead right though about you know, if it's three days work,
well actually it's the best part of a week. You know what you're
going to do, what you're going to do in that other time. It's
no good saying I just have two days off, because no, we can't
do that. We need to still earn money in a week. I know,
it wouldn't it wouldn't it be lovely? I mean, okay, let's
talk about how organized things are then, So how organized are you with like
the financial and running costs of your day to day work and how do you
do that? Okay, so I've got I've got a little bit of input
from my wife. She's very good. That's sort of saying to me,
do you think you've charged enough for that? Do you think that's worth?
And we've gone through a little system this year of looking at where we are
with materials and costs and labor and fuel and adding that little bit more percentage.
But if you was to say to a customer, by the way,
I'm now charging you three hundred pounds a day, you probably find you had
less work than you did if they think they're paying you two hundred pounds a
day. And this is where as you said, pricing, the job will
be is making sure that you are low for those extra materials there extra day.
So what I tend to do is look at it, sit down,
work it out, and then I used to have a system called double that.
So once you put your vat from your teals and stuff on, then
twenty percent then is your profit on top of that again, so it's almost
like a we call it double that if not, but it's that system of
no exactly where you need that extra money because if you get to the end
of the week and you think, well I got a minute by the time
I worked that out, it was actually on less than one hundred and fifty
pounds day. Price in a job is much more lucrative. But I think
sometimes that big figure scares people. But if they think they've got you for
two hundred pounds a day plus materials, yeah, if they don't, it's
not being deceitful. But you've got to cover your costs somewhere of it with
everything being more expensive, and that's extra day that other trade. So you
know, I look at it. I've got a little spreadsheet for it.
But I've been doing it long enough. Very rarely do I lose out on
a job. I actually end up with more work rub which is then a
knock on effect of the next job because I'm not running a big team anymore.
Yeah, any three of us. Yeah, and I think that's a
sweet spot as well. I mean, I'm I'm a tiny spot. I
know you're a bit like me. You'd bring in subcontractors. If you need
a plaster, you'll bring a plaster in. You'll get a price off them,
you might put a margin on it, and that's it. You haven't
got to worry about it anymore over you, you know. And what you're
saying there about the clients, they think, oh, yeah, I can
afford two hundred pound a day because they don't know how long it's going to
take. But what happens then is then they're sort of like clock watching you,
standing over you saying, oh, I thought you left at four thirty.
You know, well, I need to leave it forward to go to
the supplier on your behalf to pick up your material in my time. And
it's all of those awkward conversations that you end up on daywork. That's like,
that's why I only ever do anything on a price. And you know
what else I do as well. I actually say here's my costs and here's
my profit And they say, oh, I said, well, I'm a
business. I need to earn a profit. Are you going to deprive me
of my profit? And do you know it's it's incredible because a lot of
the people I work for a professionals and they totally get it. They totally
accept it, you know, correct, Yeah, I mean so the cost
of living, go for it. No, sorry, I've got my little
niche of custom now is about a dozen and they rotate every sort of five
to ten years. They come back to me, leave years, do whatever,
and they'll say to me at the end of it, are you happy
with that? John? Are you making enough money? And I will tell
them straight yes or no. It's got I've got to have the state now,
Rob, where I will only work for people that are recommended by the
people I work for. I don't call call, I don't advertise, I
don't do any of that good and haven't done. And I think that that's
the beauty of being as established as you are, doing the quality of work
that you're doing, and having that knowledge that you've got. I mean,
you don't need to ask anyone anything because you've been there and seen it and
done it. That's why you're worth what you're worth. Okay. And still
we still learn every day, Rob, don't from the things that we find.
Yeah, you take more to the game. My major was used to
say to me, it's not what you can do, John, it's what
you bring to the game. As in every part of your knowledge, your
tools, your experience, your contacts, your suppliers, your subbays. You
are. You are the package that people want because they want you to deal
with everything. They don't want to go somewhere else to get somebody else to
do something else. John, can you sort it? Is afraid? He'd
I hear so often though. Yeah, I think you're dead right. And
I was going to mention sort of about have you adjusted you I know,
I'll take everything use as a head in consideration. You're established client base,
the fact that they're you know, they're very respectful of you, and they
want you to make money. But have you adjusted your prices based on the
cost of living crisis that aspiring here? I know that petrol's coming down and
materials are coming down, but all the other things, I mean, what
are your thoughts on that? No, this is weird. I went to
the last job that we just did. It is a customer I've known for
twenty years, surgeon and his wife, and they live in a really nice
area of Edge question, and they told me how much money they were prepared
to spend on this project. That's a first for me, Not John,
how much blah blah, blah. The time scale was unreal. I was
never going to finish it on time. However, the cost they get evening,
I just sat there and I kept myself because I thought, you know
what, if they're prepared to pay this now, then next time we don't
have the conversation. And it was very much inflated on what I would have
charged them. Yeah, well this is lovely, isn't it very inflated?
Yeah, yeah, it's rare, but it's becoming better now because people don't
want anybody else. They want they want their job done by the person.
Yet that has a value in itself. Don't know that has absolute value.
Okay, a couple of things here, Any tips for carpenters who think they're
just not charging enough money? Taking everything into consideration about you know, are
they established and all the rest of it. Yeah, I think you see,
I've I've watched some of my I've got several apprentices, as you know,
who are in their twenties and thirties and forties, and quite regularly we
talk about this, are we charging enough? What would you charge? What
do you think? And we have this conversation every week in our little group
on what's up? What do you reckon for this, John, And I
now go back to them, say what do you think I should be charged
in for this? And I tell them they go genera, you could charge
a bit more than that. And then I come back to somebody who charged
one of my lads who charged way over the odds to cut a letter plate
in an expensive door, and the customer is more than happy to pay him,
but then wasn't happy to pay the cost for the complete reguttering of the
front of his house. So you look at it, you think what was
one person prepared to pay more than another? And it's not the cars on
the drive rob or what they do for a living. It's the service that
you can provide to them. Do they feel comfortable paying you one they've paid
you? Is the job going to be what you want? And I think
that's the hardest part of your client base, because everybody will pay somebody per
day to do a job. People are some people are more productive than others.
I know guys that run sites that have got subbays that they wouldn't pay
their lads in rusty washers and the other lads they want they're not allowed to
have becaust Apparently they charge ten pound more a day. Yeah, it's ridiculous.
It's a gray area. Yeah, it's a gray area. Ridiculous.
Well, I'll tell you what, mate, you are certainly a wealth of
knowledge, and I will definitely if you'll allow me to invite you back when
I need you, that would be fantastic. You're brilliant. Absolutely, We've
got so much to discuss here in this industry. We certainly do. Anyway.
Sean Matthews, a former Screwfix, top tradesperson and show regular, will
join us to give his thoughts. After some more music, Here's Queen Don't
stop Me now on fixed radio Fixed Radio. I'm Robin Clevitt, and today
on the Carpentry Show, I've been asking whether you're charging enough for your services
as a tradesperson. Joining me now is friend of the show and top tradesperson
Sean Matthews. What would you say the day ray is for a carpenter right
now? And is that in line with the industry sort of expectations in our
area the moment, Robin, we're paying anything between one hundred and forty no
end about two twenty a day for a subcontract carpenter um in other areas said
obviously, I think that they're going a lot more um and that's sort of
the average cost. I would say between for somebody half tidy, you're going
to be playing at least two hundred pounds a day. Yeah, and I
think that concurs with quite a lot of the rest of the country, to
be honest, and when when you reference tidy, explain to the listener what
you mean by tidy. Somebody's confidence in your work's got to be able.
I would expect somebody with a van with tools, you know, ask as
many questions as you want. That's never a problem. You need to be
confident. You need to be once everything's explained and you know what's going on,
to be able to do the task. And then that warrants that you
know obviously that hourly rates or that daily rate. Yeah, that's so true,
isn't it. And I think that I often reference the fact that if
you have got your own transport, your own tools, your time served,
your reliable, punctual hank, and hold a decent conversation and do the work
let's beyond list then yes, you probably can command the top money in the
area at the time if you like. Okay, and I know that for
years. All trades people just chase the day work, you know, they
chase the money. My late father in law was a bricklayer and he would
dump. He would jump from one site to another one the next day if
they were paying five pound more a day. You know, it's it's on
one hand, there's no loyalty. On the other hand, that's just the
way the industry is, isn't it. Yeah, it is. I try
to steal away from being from from the hourly you know, a day work
rate. I like I said, I try to avoid the we priced ourselves
competitively or also, I'm running a business and any you know, any other
sub sub contractors out there. You're running your own small little entity, your
business. You need to actually equate into the you know, into the equation
an element of profit, whether a customer or a contractor degrees. There needs
to be, you know, that element of I'm running my own ship here,
like I said, you're liable, you're competential, go your van.
You've got to pay all these expenses in the background when you do warrant you
know, a decent day rate. But I try and avoid it. I
try and base a lot of our work obviously on price work. Obviously in
the back of your mind. You've got to keep in your mind these day
work sort of rates to to work the figures out. You certainly do.
And you're exactly like me. You're exactly like John Argyle, who is my
previous contributor to this topic. And I'd like to ask you also, how
do you typically figure out your costs? Okay, not not pouncing Pence,
don't don't tell me exactly, but what you know, how do you figure
out what you need to earn on a job? So let's say, how
do you get how did you come to a price? I've taken the time
to break down some of the obviously the business outgoing for a small business,
so I've broken down some of the outgoing there as in the van lease,
insurances, some of the tool depreciation, buying your tools. There's going to
be an element to sort of be a business element in your cost I've included
some of my personal outco into the moment because the cost of living is just
insane, so you want to make sure they've you've sort of covered covered your
ass. Really, yeah, they're working. So I've kind of in my
own how I price it? I know where I need to earn a minimum
per day. Then I'll know from my studies or the people I bring in
what they need to be paid, or I'll give their ideas or canius this
much for this room, or they'll give me ideas of costs. So if
I'm just put based on my own personal just me doing a job, then
it would be I'd work out how many hours I think it's going to take.
I tend to add a couple more because obviously you know it would all
you know, many variable everything. Yeah, somebody delivers to the wrong address
and refuses to give you the delivery because I've had a million different scenarios,
but delivered old candrels to the house next door and they've they've been taken to
another depot and they won't give them too. Because cover a long story short,
I'd work on my basic hourly rate, how many hours I think that
job is going to take. I usually add a couple because you've got to
run around from all the rest of it. Yeah, but now I do
add an element of profit. There's a percentage of profit that I add to
that job anyway, and it's a it's a decent profit because invariably stuff goes
wrong costs long. But I don't want to be Penny Pinchion and come back
to a customer every two minutes saying, or we put an extra three screws
in there, and yeah, so I kind of cover the rather have it
as they think it's a three week but it's not. You absorb a little
bit, don't you. Yeah, exactly, Yeah, yeah, it's not
priced to the to the bare minimum. I need a bit of fat on
it and then that bad gets reduced. Yeah. No, I think I
think anyone listening to this who's also doing the same sort of work that we're
doing, you know, mainly the domestic market where you're having to cover off
loads of variables. There's so many variables. It could be the weather,
it could be that handra that turns up the wrong place you can't get hold
of it, holding you up. And it could be, as you say,
having to put more scursy. And we do have to absorb some of
that, but experience tells you to factor that in. You mentioned the cost
of living crisis. It is absolutely spirring. We've got interest rates if you're
coming off, if you're lucky enough to have a mortgage in the property and
you're coming off a fix. For example, they're doubling and tripling. The
interest is doubling and trippling in some cases, and I know that the banks
are trying to sort some sort of help out here and there, but take
that. I know, fuels going down and materials are easing, but there's
lots of other pressures. You know, there's food inflation and that is having
a knocking effect. And how did you adjust or have you adjusted your prices
currently and what are your thoughts on it? In all honesty, I with
all this going on, when we're feeling the pence as well. You know,
we work Spoke area and we're lucky with that. We work with some
really wealthy clients which they're not sort of penny pension, but from my everyday
sort of the price and I've had to up our rates, the carpets of
the works and here's rates. Our subcontractors have become more expensive. So all
these it's all to be factored in. At first, when it all started
happening, I didn't I priced a load of work and I thought, no,
I'll honor the price, and I ended up losing thousand, which is
ridiculous. I know it was still because I didn't want to go back and
say I'm really sorry, you know, missus Jones, or this is going
to cost exam out more. Yeah, she wasn't really missus Jones, or
she probably it was probably Welsh exactly. No, But I mean that that's
the thing, and I think that it's happened to all of us where you
have actually looked at the end of the job and realized, well, that
price just wasn't enough because it took way longer, had loads of aggravation from
the client, and it's and I think when you actually have to produce something
and get to it across the finish line, it's even more painful, isn't
it. Yeah, We've recently did a beautiful oak and glass staircase transformation and
a job just took concident, just took much longer that we come across.
Lots a little snares, little things, everything, just every single aspect seemed
to take longer and be awkward. But when you're doing a server, you're
kind of looking thro well, this looks normal and that piece everything took long.
We've finished up with an amazing result and the customers are over the moon.
But I was kind of inside thinking I've done all this, it looks
absolutely beautiful, and I've just all covered my ass. I know, I
know, I know, I know exactly what I mean. You know,
no matter how experienced, how good you are, especially if you're you know,
your standard is incredible. John's standards is incredible. I like to think
mine is as well. And the problem there is we have such a conscience
that we want everything to be as close to perfect as possible, even at
our expense. You know what I mean exactly. Yeah, it's just I
would rather not so much. I don't want to lose one in every job.
But if it comes now and again where where you just don't make any
and you know, the misses. His moment's saying, oh my god,
you're still on that job. You know, I would rather be right than
compromise the quality and walk away. It's just a shame that the every expense
by facing it's just ridiculous. I know, I know. So finishing up
any tips for carpenters who think they're not currently charging enough money, and you've
got to look at you know how you are my life, haven't you?
If you're paying the bills and you're keeping your head above water. But also
if you're also doing a really good job. It's no good being slap dash
and cutting corners and putting out rough work and people constantly complain, and then
you know you're going to you're gonna feel the pinch. But if you're one
of the trades and out there to do care, you do take a lot
of pride in your work. If you're still feeling that I'm not even you
know, barely keeping your head above water, you need to put your prices
up and you'll be surprised that the customers you will gay will swallow it.
Yeah, we've got a lot of people who will wait for us, and
we'll pay you know, good money for work that we're doing. But you've
just got to be confident in yourself and confidence in your price. And and
if I've always found in the past, you know, as one door closed
as another one does open, oh god, I don't don't go in too
low and don't compromise. Yeah, you will find something else. I think
that's fabulous advice. It's remaining strong, okay, and also justifying why you're
charging a little bit more. The Carpentry Show on fixed radio. This is
the Carpentry show with Festal. I'm Robin Clevitt, and as I said at
the start of the show, I'm always been asked by carpenters, how do
I know I'm charging enough? Well, I mean it is boiling back to
what both of my guests have said is it depends on your abilities. It
depends how far you'll travel, It depends how much time you've got to devote
to the job, whether it's how many hours in the day, or you
know you need to set your stall out. You need to say I've got
my own tools, I've got my own transport. I am confident and competent
about reading a drawing, setting a job out, actually cutting it and fixing
it. If you know that you're at that point where you can you know
you can do all those things, then I think that you should be pitching
at the rate. So we've talked today about the rates, you know,
sort of two hundred up to two hundred and fifty pounds a day, and
I think that they're sort of bang on what the industry is sort of dictating
at the moment. And I know that there are some chippies on more money
than that. All they are is the fact that they've actually managed to get
just beyond the point where we're talking about now, and they've now built themselves
an area, a list of clients, like John sort of ten clients that
he rotates around over the years, or Sean saying, you know, he's
got some established clients that he works with, and that's when you can start
factoring a little bit more money because they're buying your sort of skills, your
knowledge, your contacts, your sort of experience effectively. So anyway, so
yes, we're saying, yeah, the cost of living, Christ is this
up your money? What if other carpenters are charging less and you're being undercut,
because that will happen, of course, because let's be honest, we're
all, you know, at different stages in our lives. If I was
asked to price the job, and you're asked to price the same job,
and you're in the job, you're into the trade for five years. I've
been in it thirty six years, we might be both ability wise still on
part because you can learn a lot in five years and become absolutely brilliant.
Just as I've met a lot of carpenters who are only five years in and
they're absolutely awesome, but in life terms, I probably am a little bit
more sort of relaxed, because I'm lucky enough to have managed to have bought
a house in my life. And you know, as you get older,
your costs do start to decrease, but in fact they're meant to. Okay,
they don't often, but they're meant to. I think you just lived
to your means, or you stretch your means, or your means get a
bit more extravagant. Okay. But so what I'm saying is, yes,
different people at different times in their lives will have different needs. You might
be at the point where you're thinking of getting married. You've just saved for
a deposit for a house, and your partner now fiance, is saying,
oh, we're going to get married next year, and you're thinking, hold
on a minute, we've only just bought the house. We've got to do
the house up. Now we're talking about getting married. In the end,
you put yourself under pressure. That's when you start thinking, I need to
charge more money. So, yes, it is so difficult and there's so
many variables, and if someone is undercutting you, try to move away from
that type of work, if you like, try to sort of find that
niche find that client that is absolutely perfect for you, or that sort of
sector that you can earn a little bit more money in. Okay, and
with inflation, for example, the cost of something in a supermarket could increase
free times over the course of a year. So how often should we be
putting up our prices? Again, that boils down to personal situation at the
time. Yes, we've got a benchmark in the industry. We've talked around
two two hundred and fifty. Maybe if you're you can get three hundred a
day, providing you're doing enough work for it, because people just won't pay
if we're not delivering enough work. How often, Well, I think that
we should just make sure we watch our bottom lines. We make sure that
our own sort of prices aren't running away with us. We're not paying too
much for our materials. Or if you're pricing a job and it's a four
month job, just sort of hedge against the materials, maybe say to decline,
this is the labor and I'm prepared to stand by this. This is
an estimate for the materials. Here's the list, here's what I'm paying from
now. But in four months, when they get to the end of the
job. If the doors have gone up by double, I need to pass
that onto you. And I think that most clients absolutely respect and understand that.
They might say, is it likely you say, by the doors now
at this price you store them and look after them. There's a way around
that. So yeah, there's so many things about it. I do think
that this topic. Thanks for asking, by the way, if it has
been across the socials or indeed sending your text messages into Fix here. It
is a topic that we are always talking about. It's why we go to
work. Ultimately, it's what we need to do to survive and have a
reasonably normal existence. The Carpentry Show Fixed Radio. So that's it for today's
Carpentry Show, where I've talked about how you can ensure you're kind of charging
enough for what you do. Okay, And yes, I will say,
there's so many variables. And if you're employed, yes, it doesn't probably
apply to you unless you know you've got a review coming up with your sort
of employer and they say, you know how you're feeling, say, well,
it's getting a bit tight. They'd know that anyway, they'd know if
money is getting tight, because sometimes our headsdrop sometimes we just feel down because
we're just not making enough to cover our bills. Maybe we're covering our bills,
but we're not having any fun. We're not going out for restaurant meals
and all the sort of things. Especially if you're young, you do want
to have a bit of a life. I know that you career is important,
but yeah, it's easy, come, easy go. I mean,
what kind of money should you be making five years in, ten years,
in fifteen years, twenty years in. I mean it's a really difficult one
that let's take the scenario I mentioned this. I'm fifty three. I've been
in it a long time. So I also have got, like John,
a core clientele that I know are going to call me. They're going to
call me this year, maybe next year as well. And I sort of
have this comfort that I haven't got the insecurity of having to chase the work.
Okay, I have had I've had some really hard times during my career
where I've had a job and all of a sudden, the firm I was
working for has gone under. Not only did they go under, they didn't
pay my last three weeks money, and that puts you behind and straight away
you're trying to find work, you have an overdraft, you've got to pay
your bills, you don't know what to do, and then you get under
a lot of pressure. So even whether you are established, you're in my
position, those things and still catch you out. I think the golden rule
is make sure you know who's paying you. I always say this, who's
paying you and when they're going to pay you. Don't work for some person
who's going to go, Oh, by the way, finish your job,
sending your invoice and we'll sort out the payment. You need to know who
is paying you for that, who is where that money is going from,
and that you're going to get it when you need it. Okay. Anyway,
that's that's about it for today's Carpentry Show. You can hear it again
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