WEBVTT

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Hello, and welcome to DJs and
Dorks. I am the DJ to Kyle's

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Jork. We are bringing you the
best in role playing design, go a

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game design. As always, it's
led by you. I don't know why.

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I don't know what that means,
but you better, you better tell

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us how to do it. How's
it going today, Kyle? It's so

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amazing. UM. So hopefully if
this is your first time to to get,

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you'll realize that that this is Graham
Gens. This is the lovely Graham

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Gains is not rally Parks. Graham
is stepping in as interim co host for

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the next couple months, which is
really exciting for us over here at Desks

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Dorks. He's also one who suggested
that beautiful theme song, which I absolutely

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love. We listened to it before
we hit record. Just I'm just I'm

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so hyped about it. I'm doing
great, Graham. Today's gonna be a

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great episode. This is another an
iteration on one of your ideas. And

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if you're okay, I want to
tell the people, like what this is?

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You cool? That absolutely top five
reasons we love after the Rain,

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Yeah, it's a start A number
five. We're tired of things being before

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the rain, and finally this game
does it that it's after the rain?

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What's your top five? My number
five reason after the rain is the best.

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I really like water great, that's
a solid one. Dry. So

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if you have not listened to last
week's episode, it's like one of the

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ones that I've really really enjoyed the
most. It is five games that we

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hate, despise feel very negatively about. But we worked really hard to find

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things that we loved about those particular
titles, and so I suggested to Graham

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after last week's episode that we do
the reverse of that. And so today

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here are going to be some games
that we absolutely love. It a door

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and they are things that we hate. We hate about those games. Um,

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that's pretty much it is the reverse, the inverse of that episode,

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if you will, So, Graham, I want to talk a little about

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my methodology because you kind of came
in strong with methodology last time. I

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specific em for games that I went
that I rated nine or ten or higher

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on my list. So these are
like in many cases, all five of

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the games that I picked are in
my top twenty games of all time.

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There are there is one that is
in my top five games of all time,

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and then one that is a top
ten game of mine but might be

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in the top five at some other
point. The more that I play it,

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the more I enjoy it. Um
So these are all like bangers in

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my mind. These are all games
that, like, I will drop everything

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and play. If someone's like,
hey, do you want to play any

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of these five? Unless I am
jonesing to play something else, I will

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be playing one of these. So
all right, so we already did an

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episode about that our top five favorite
board games? Are you pulling from that?

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I pulled one. I pulled one. I pulled one from my top

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five? Which one we're going to
talk about? Then I pulled one from

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my top five? Why why don't
you give me your your your first game?

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You want to talk about that?
All right? What game do you

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love that you are now going to
rip apart? So I I love me

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a good SIV builder. There are
two SIV builders on this list that play

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in wildly drastically different ways. Some
people remember that I used to work for

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Yellow USA back when that was still
a company, and right around the time

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that they acted their American department,
they released their best game like Ever,

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and I will I will stand on
This Hill, which is Hora spelled k

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O r A. It was part
of this like new Yellow Expert series that

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I think they killed like immediately after
they released Horra, which sucks because this

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game is a deeply, deeply strategic
civilization style builder that uses dice rolls and

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dice manipulation to determine the actions that
you can make. Everybody has the exact

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same action cards, but the way
that you take those actions, the order

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in which you take those actions,
and the way that you interact with other

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people matters a ton. It is
one of my favorite games. I love

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Hora. It's it's it's just great. It takes away the map aspect of

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SIV building, but it continues to
have like culture, politics, military,

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and economy all be viable means with
which your civilization wins the game. Now

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it translates those as victory points.
But again, if you're like a SID

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builder family I am, I love
having multiple avenues of victory that all tie

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into the business of building a civilization. The art and the production value or

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really stellar and what I love about
it. I love asymmetric character powers and

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you're playing as Greek city states and
at asymmetry is really strong throughout horror.

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But the one thing that I hate
about this is their playtuncharacteristically positive it does,

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and I are about to know why
because I'm leading into it. Those

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asymmetries are actually the biggest achilles heel
of the game, because in playtesting they

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missed that one of the characters,
one of the city states, civilizations,

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whatever you want to call it,
is wildly overpowered, to the point that

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if you are playing and even a
group of equivalent skill levels, or even

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somebody who is not of an equivalent
skill level as the rest of the table,

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if they have the sieve, they
will win the game. And it's

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not like it's like, oh,
they have a chance to where it's a

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greater chance, like if they play
with even minor competence, they'll crush and

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it's not close like like when we
have played with this, I've played Kora

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probably I want to say twenty twenty
five times we have house ruled this civilization

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out. It is so powerful and
to the tune of like thirty forty points

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beating your opponents, which in a
game where you score maybe one hundred to

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two hundred points, that's a lot
of points to lose. By like the

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gap between first and second is that
high, which, as Molitis who knew

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that, you know, giving someone
a basically infinite money to work with would

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would translate to it a broken advantage. And in a game that is that

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strategically tight, it sucks. Suck
suck suck suck sucks that they playtesting missed

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that because it's by, it's brutal, it's a slog. So that's my,

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that's my, that's my number five, we're number four. It sounds

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like a very easy solution to your
problem is not don't play that one?

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Uh? You know, Um,
when I did programming in schools, so

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I had my bag full of cards
and board games in the back of my

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car that I would take from school
to school. One of the ones that

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was provided for me, UM had
one character that was like, So the

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game was made by clearly European country, and so the like the character who

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was uh not white, was very
characcatured, uh and like really uncomfortable.

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And so I just threw out that
card and never thought about it again.

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Um, what am I allowed to
ask to these kinds of problems? What

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game was this? Am I allowed
to ask? I have to go back

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and look, okay, okay,
I was gonna say, because now I'm

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curious because we we were into it, and I like, yes, it

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is an easy solution, right,
you can get rid of this character.

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But it sucks because part of the
fun of this game is the different civilizations,

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and I hate just eliminating how many
are left, Like how do they

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come into the base box. Let's
see there's like, well, I'm gonna

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have to go through it. So
there's Corinth, Olympia, athens Arghosts,

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Sparta, I think Malita's. I
think that's I think there's six, so

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you still have plenty of options.
But again, and it's two to four.

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I assume it plays two to four. Yeah, it's two to four,

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which, again, like there's still
plenty of options there. It just

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stinks that, like we're losing what
is what could have been a really interesting

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economics based civilization because that's like their
whole big stick is like economics. And

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it's weird because so each of the
six sieves has two or are focused on

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like one of those three paths between
warfare, politics, and economics. Right,

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so there are two economic focus city
states, two warfare focused city states,

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and two politics focus city states,
and so you kind of lose out

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on that aspect of the SIV builder
by eliminating it. So yeah, it's

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an easy solution in terms of I
can play it and it's good still,

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but it does kind of make me
a little sad about what I've lost or

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what could have been lost potentially,
so and who knows, maybe one of

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these days I'll go back through a
house rule it and make some changes and

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stuff. But yeah, yeah,
the other takeaway I have from that is

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so you saw one glaring issue,
and when you have a modular game,

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it's very easy to pull things out
for people who aren't designers. But going

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a step further, if anything in
any game you're playing, take it out,

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move it, change it, house
rule it, Like this is the

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power that you have. One are
the reasons I love board games more often

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than video games is the how easy
are to mess with. Yeah, if

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you were to go out to say
a thrift store and buy some weird civil

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war game, you could pull it
apart in glue pleases on it and make

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an entirely new game. Nobody's gonna
stop you. You know, there's lots

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of jokes about the board game police, but like in philadesty, they're not

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a thing unless, um, you
know, you accidentally get a bunch of

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cards too early, then they're definitely
real. Um So putting putting the power

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in you. If you see something
in a game you don't like, Oh

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I love this game, but it's
so easy to mess with it. I

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think that's a wonderful thing. That
could be a fun episode. Two for

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us to play around with is like
how to mess with games, like a

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whole thing of like house ruling,
uh, you know, game breaking,

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game Frankensteining like that, because that
stuff that that's the that's like the best

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part about being a designer. Sometimes
it's like I like two things, let's

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put them together. So what is
your what is your fuh Kyle Otter sidebar

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um. One of my favorite,
like after hours convention games, when you're

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sitting around with a bunch of people
you don't really normally see in person or

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their designers in creative minds is to
do kind of a Dogma ninety five thing

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with components, Dogma ninety five being
a movement and indie film basically where you're

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very very strict rules about what you're
allowed to do and make the film so

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basically like I throw you components and
then we all go around in a circle

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and we quote unquote design a game
and then we teach it to people.

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Somebody had a popcorn game. It
was like it came in a tannin had

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like popcorn dice, and so that
we all took about five to ten minutes,

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looked at the components, designed a
game, and then taught it to

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everybody in around. It was fabulous. And that's like very game jam ish

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two. Yeah, which is cool. So all right, I'm sorry,

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I got really excited because I want
to know what your first name. I

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know, it's exciting. It's an
exciting time here on DJs and dorks.

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So I'm gonna use your game and
jump off to to choose one on my

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list. So we're talking about asymmetric
powers. So I'm gonna go right out

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of the gate and talk about what
I have decided is my favorite board game

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of all time, which is Cosmic
Encounter. Cosmic Encounter was made in nineteen

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hundred and seventy seven, so it's
decades before even the glint of what became

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the the board game revolution that we
all know, like post ninety and European

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designers being like us, we want
no conflict, you know, and like

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really really making that this driving idea
of design, and even Richard Goerfield was

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inspired by the individual asymmetrical powers.
In Cosmic Encounter, you have one alien

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and then that is what informs your
very very simple game that you're playing,

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your very variusable word game. So
what if that was the entire game and

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that's you know, your police,
don't get me hands up Pattins. So

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Cosmic has so you said, looks
like six six six. In the base

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game of Cosmic there are fifty.
There are fifty of these aliens. It's

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amazing, and every expansion you get
about fifty more. I remember when the

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Twilight four came out, Twilight and
Period four and there's like fifteen or twenty,

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which is absurd. It was much
bigger than other editions. But in

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base you get like, you get
fifty of these alien races. And the

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idea of this oh no, you're
overpowered issue of something like your CIV Builders

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is not a problem because the game
leans into it. So far, I've

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been really really positive about Cosmic,
but here's the thing. Here's here's what

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I find difficult about Cosmic is it
does go a little bit despite the fact

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that the game itself the whisper of
a strategy game, which is what I

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think it's one of its boons is
that implies a certain level of ability and

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comfort level to play. You don't
even decide who you attack. You draw

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a card up top of the deck. It acides who you're going to attack,

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So you don't even have any of
those hurt feelings that often occur unless

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you you know you're worth a comfortable
group or you know, dudes on a

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map. Games where it's aggressive,
you're taking something away from somebody that feels

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bad. A lot of the time, depending on one of three difficulties of

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what you get in your alien race, there is a lot of oh god,

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what does this mean? Translation?
It could be very very gamy,

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And my favorite way to play is
getting to looking at them, choosing one

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and going it away and it stays
face down until you activate and use your

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power. That drama is exceptional,
it's not. It's like an optional rule

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and absolutely should be played. But
unless you have people who are kind of

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playing and familiar and able to use
that terminology, it's really hard. The

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game itself is very easy to play, but the excitement comes into only when

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you can like shake out some of
the weirder and more abstract powers. The

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other thing that I find difficult about
Cosmic is that I've played at a number

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of times and I still don't fully
have to. I have to look up

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the phases every single time. It's
a little hard for me to teach.

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There's a sequence of micro turns and
order of things. Okay, now it's

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this phase. Okay, now we're
going to go around. And I'm fairly

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certain I have it down, but
I have a cheat sheet. I look

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at it every time. It always
slows me down a little bit. So

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even though it's my favorite game,
I'm always a little hesitant to pull it

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out because being a evangelist for games
and experiences, I want people to be

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excited and interested. So the idea
is that I need a couple of feet

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in the door before I can pull
this one out and talk about it.

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The buy in is there and meeting
people to be part of it. Despite

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the fact that it's like deceptively simple
as it is, there are a number

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of extra pieces which come together,
meaning that whatever it's quote unquote weight is

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isn't always the most accurate way to
describe the game, and it's difficulty to

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teach. Yeah, that's true.
That was the one thing. Having played

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Cosmic Encounter, I finally played it
two years ago, three years ago.

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It was my first time I ever
playing it, and I was struck simultaneous

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about how easy it was to get
some of the mechanisms and how fiddly some

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of the other stuff was. It
was a weird It was a weird mismatch

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because I thought it was going to
be the different alien powers that we're going

215
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to do it for me in terms
of like if something is gonna sink me,

216
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it's gonna be those. But it
was, like you said, it

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was the phases. I was like, all right, what phase are we

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in? What about how to do
it? So? Yeah, I think

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that's I think that's right on the
money. Although Cousby Encounter is still just

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a last phenomenal game, it's exceptional. It does way more right than you

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expected to do, and it's messy
in the right ways. A lot of

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games of the past ten years,
fifteen years that are messy usually I don't

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find them to be messy in the
right way. Ye, your your favorite

224
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game of all time. I have
plenty and plenty of issues because I find

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00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:37.960
it to be way way, way, way, way way way too fiddly.

226
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Yeah, it feels like a Kickstarter
game, and I feel like a

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lot of kickstartery games like I just
want them to be an app. I

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want them to be a solo video
game so that I can sit there and

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play my you know, six for
one hundred hours or whatever and not have

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to worry about that stuff. But
when there's a lack of what seems like

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a testing, I'm like, oh, after you just all myself or I

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sit there, I I'll, i'll, i'll, I'll do a bigger veil.

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It's Spirit Island. Ah ah,
there's always it's always the person at

234
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the table when I play Spirit Island
who owns it and loves it, And

235
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it's mine nubbing to me because at
the end of every phase, I then

236
00:16:17.240 --> 00:16:19.399
sit there and then they whip their
hands around and do all the ad men

237
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because it's so automatic, and all
I can think of is like, I

238
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just wish a computer was doing that
for you, bud and see. I

239
00:16:26.679 --> 00:16:30.679
get it. But also I hate
app driven games and I love Spirit Island,

240
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so like it's it's like that driven
game I want the app version of

241
00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:37.559
it. I want a video game
version of the video game. There is

242
00:16:37.679 --> 00:16:40.080
I believe there is a video game
version of it. If if i'm or

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maybe this is the BGM version,
I imagine that's exactly what I want.

244
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Yeah, and they it might be. But it's like a hello officer,

245
00:16:47.000 --> 00:16:48.039
I'm in this picture and I don't
like it. High it's me. I'm

246
00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:52.919
the one when it comes to Spirit
Island. Um. That one didn't make

247
00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:56.840
my list though, of games that
I love that I don't like something about

248
00:16:56.919 --> 00:17:02.039
criticize you know, it's perfect as
all things that I like are no.

249
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But I did try to organize my
list in terms of, like the things

250
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that I thought were from like more
to less game breaking for me? So

251
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like yes, so having my leadist
in Horrabi one of the things that you

252
00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:18.279
can get rid of. There's a
reason it was the first one I wanted

253
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to talk about. The second one
is another SIV builder. I wanted to

254
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get both my SIV builders out of
the way and then we can move on

255
00:17:23.599 --> 00:17:26.559
to the engine builders, right,
And who are the engine builders in the

256
00:17:26.599 --> 00:17:32.559
drafting game? Is Golden Age,
which was an old Stronghold Games title that

257
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is staggering to me in terms of
like how much I liked it as a

258
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game itself. I actually got turned
onto this game because of somebody else that

259
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was on like our Instagram feed was
continually talking about it, and they would

260
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not shut up about this SIV builder, And I'm like, this game looks

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atrocious. I encourage you all right
now if you have not to look up

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00:17:56.839 --> 00:18:02.599
the Golden Ages game. Shout out
to Riley for harassing him on the Instagram,

263
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like, I mean, yes,
I wish it was Riley. I

264
00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:08.000
need to convince Riley to play a
game. First. I love the man

265
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dearly, but like after after T
Dragons, right after TE Dragons Society absolutely,

266
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um. And that is my biggest
thing is that the presentation of this

267
00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:23.359
game is god awful. Um.
The art is bad, The graphic design

268
00:18:23.640 --> 00:18:32.000
is sloppy. It is like do
you remember Graham when like like Ishtari and

269
00:18:32.200 --> 00:18:38.079
like Rio Grand would like pump out
these really pixily looking horrible games like this

270
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back like the early two thousands.
I have like two or three of them

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like on my shelf right now,
because they were like three dollars digital art.

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00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:48.880
No, like they just had real
art that they tried to upload and

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they just didn't do it in photoshop, right, So it's you know what

274
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I'm talking about. It's that like
Golden Ages is that it was and I

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which sucks because every time, without
fail, I bust this game out onto

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the tabletop, people immediately go uh
uh like like I have had people be

277
00:19:11.240 --> 00:19:14.880
like, no, I'm good,
I don't actually want to try this game

278
00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:18.920
because of how horrendous it looks.
There's a good friend of our channel's Day's

279
00:19:18.920 --> 00:19:22.240
Matt ag. Shout out to Matt
him Matt. He was one of the

280
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playtesters on After the Rain, and
I love Matt because Matt will try any

281
00:19:25.440 --> 00:19:27.720
game once. And after we played
Golden Ages, I think I don't know

282
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if he beat me or if he
got second in the first game of it

283
00:19:30.680 --> 00:19:34.079
he played. He goes, I
thought that was going to be atrocious,

284
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and that was amazing. And that's
my biggest scripe with Golden Ages is they

285
00:19:40.279 --> 00:19:45.880
put one of the best what's up
that it looks bad? It It doesn't

286
00:19:45.920 --> 00:19:48.839
just look bad, it looks so
bad that people don't play it like and

287
00:19:49.039 --> 00:19:52.319
the and I'll be honest too.
In addition to the art, the graphic

288
00:19:52.359 --> 00:19:57.200
design is not great, like good
graphics and good graphic design I think can

289
00:19:57.279 --> 00:20:03.119
elevate a game from being really difficult
to play to being much easier to play.

290
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And suit builders, especially because of
the complexity of them, I think

291
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a strong graphic design and strong graphic
directions essential. And I don't know if

292
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you have some examples, Graham,
I'm sure you could probably think of games

293
00:20:15.039 --> 00:20:18.359
you're like, oh, God,
like, if your graphic designer done another

294
00:20:18.400 --> 00:20:22.960
pass on these icons, this could
have been way better. What it does

295
00:20:22.039 --> 00:20:27.079
break up for me is the idea
of how important that is in general.

296
00:20:27.480 --> 00:20:32.079
But also this is a thought experiment
that we've come through, which is the

297
00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:36.319
idea of, Okay, we love
this game, but what we find in

298
00:20:36.440 --> 00:20:38.720
it, well, and that's the
opposite. It's it's how you process it

299
00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:41.519
first, right, the idea like
burst of your eyes, I know,

300
00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:45.759
the playing of a of a dish. And so everybody here saw this game

301
00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:48.920
and thought, in fact the opposite, This is an interesting thing to consider,

302
00:20:49.079 --> 00:20:52.480
this is going to be bad,
and then once they've played it,

303
00:20:52.599 --> 00:20:56.759
it's actually quite enjoyable, which is
not at all what we've been talking about

304
00:20:56.839 --> 00:21:00.279
here. But here's the thing about
in terms of a designer, here's the

305
00:21:00.359 --> 00:21:03.960
other thing too. My issue is
the graphic design makes it harder to play,

306
00:21:03.079 --> 00:21:08.440
Like the icons that they chose make
it harder to play. And that's

307
00:21:08.720 --> 00:21:11.359
right. So so not only do
you have like it literally is like we

308
00:21:11.480 --> 00:21:15.160
put all of our money into how
the game plays and none of our money

309
00:21:15.200 --> 00:21:18.640
into how the game is presented.
So you're hit at first with this odious

310
00:21:18.759 --> 00:21:22.119
art, and then you are left
with this graphic design that frankly speaking,

311
00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:27.440
is a little mismatched, feels sloppy, and because it is sloppy, it

312
00:21:27.640 --> 00:21:30.720
makes the game harder to play.
Like some of the icons, I'm like

313
00:21:30.839 --> 00:21:36.839
you, this does not inform what
I'm doing at all. Like um,

314
00:21:37.160 --> 00:21:41.039
Gloomhaven, for all of its many
foibles, and there are some foibles in

315
00:21:41.160 --> 00:21:44.079
that game, I think did a
great job of having really crisp graphics,

316
00:21:44.440 --> 00:21:48.200
graphics that sort of lend itself to
ease of play. At least when I've

317
00:21:48.200 --> 00:21:51.000
taught myself how to play it,
I remember being like, Wow, this

318
00:21:51.119 --> 00:21:53.279
is really helpful. It is the
opposite experience of the Golden Ages, where

319
00:21:53.319 --> 00:21:57.400
I'm like, I am coming back
to the rule book constantly for these and

320
00:21:57.559 --> 00:22:00.880
I have played it many many times, and I'm like and I want to

321
00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:03.039
try to teach new people. They're
like, can you just leave the rule

322
00:22:03.079 --> 00:22:04.519
book with us while we're playing so
the we can come back and look at

323
00:22:04.559 --> 00:22:08.880
it like it. So it's the
one two punch of the presentation, I

324
00:22:08.960 --> 00:22:15.079
think at least for me. Yeah, I'm a sucker for clean iconography,

325
00:22:15.960 --> 00:22:18.839
particularly because I always come at it
from a how am I going to teach

326
00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:23.960
this to people who don't understand thing? And as you move up your your

327
00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:30.240
line graph of complexity, complexity and
depth, you you're looking to really kind

328
00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:33.720
of challenge people of certain groups.
So when plenty of games are like,

329
00:22:33.799 --> 00:22:36.759
oh, well, we have all
these mechanics, how do we do them?

330
00:22:36.799 --> 00:22:38.920
We have all these symbols for it, the ones where they have great

331
00:22:40.079 --> 00:22:44.839
symbols like resarcana, I think really
come out like really really speak of themselves.

332
00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:47.680
Like I'm like, oh, no, you know, casual gamer.

333
00:22:47.720 --> 00:22:48.799
There are a lot of symbols,
but I promise you they're all going to

334
00:22:48.880 --> 00:22:52.000
make sense, and after a quick
demo they do, And so that does

335
00:22:52.240 --> 00:22:56.119
a huge amount of work for you. Yes, iconography is the word I

336
00:22:56.200 --> 00:23:00.440
could not think of to save my
soul. I keep saying symbols and graphics

337
00:23:00.759 --> 00:23:03.440
like iconography is the word I couldn't
think of, and Rescan is a great

338
00:23:03.440 --> 00:23:11.039
example. Yes, pretty picture cave
brain, Oh I do, it's my

339
00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:15.759
goblin brain. No, but Resurcan
is a great example of that. Graham

340
00:23:15.799 --> 00:23:19.279
Where Likes has a lot of complicated
bits, but the graphics are so intuitive

341
00:23:19.519 --> 00:23:22.279
it makes the game easier to play. I just want you to think of

342
00:23:22.319 --> 00:23:26.480
the reverse of that, like sure, no, I mean that's easy to

343
00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:32.519
do. I mean even games that
I think are complex and do a good

344
00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:37.400
job of communicating, like Race for
the Galaxy. Uh, you get slammed

345
00:23:37.559 --> 00:23:41.559
with pictures and uh halos or the
right color and the right size and the

346
00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:48.240
right shape or um scenario Confluence is
one of my favorite giant, chaotic like

347
00:23:49.359 --> 00:23:55.279
games of many many players. Um, but nobody ever refers to the things

348
00:23:55.359 --> 00:23:56.559
of the colors of what they are. It's always I'm going to trade you

349
00:23:56.640 --> 00:24:00.519
a brown for an orange for a
green, right, Um, it's all

350
00:24:00.599 --> 00:24:02.759
nonsense. But you're like, oh
god, what is my little thing?

351
00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:07.839
So as you climb up this line
graph of complexity, it becomes vital because

352
00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:11.240
the smallest, the smallest little thing
can really really screw you up. This

353
00:24:11.319 --> 00:24:15.160
is a hammer, Okay, doesn't
that mean Bill, Does it mean destroy?

354
00:24:15.400 --> 00:24:18.559
I don't know, Like this is
you really need to play test specifically

355
00:24:18.640 --> 00:24:25.559
this stuff. It's super important.
Yeah, yep, all right, Oh

356
00:24:25.599 --> 00:24:27.480
it's too excellent. So I'm going
to jump off another thing, which I

357
00:24:27.519 --> 00:24:33.039
think relates to what you're talking about
about, a total lack of chronography and

358
00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:37.440
a game where the components are very
simple and that I love and it's kind

359
00:24:37.480 --> 00:24:41.640
of the opposite of your my my
cosmic things. So all the way at

360
00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:44.640
the bottom of that scale, a
game that I love to use and pull

361
00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:49.519
people in and have a wide variety
of both exciting moments, but it's not

362
00:24:49.680 --> 00:24:53.559
very complex, and it's also you
know, sold it insane a number of

363
00:24:53.640 --> 00:25:00.200
copies. And that's Code Names.
I think Code Names is phenomenal. It's

364
00:25:00.240 --> 00:25:06.119
so easy. Uh, it's it's
it's really fun. You have moments to

365
00:25:06.200 --> 00:25:10.920
feel clever, which I think is
part of that. The idea of this

366
00:25:11.119 --> 00:25:12.640
line graph that I bring up,
I'm going to slow down to talk about

367
00:25:12.640 --> 00:25:17.440
it a little bit. It's the
idea that as complexity in greases on your

368
00:25:17.599 --> 00:25:21.960
X axis, depth will proportionally increase
on the Y axis. This is not

369
00:25:22.039 --> 00:25:26.920
always the case. The idea is
that I'm looking for games that are deeper

370
00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:30.960
than they are complex. And a
lot of games have the idea that there's

371
00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:33.599
tons of rules, but how much
does it actually added in terms of your

372
00:25:33.640 --> 00:25:37.279
experience? And Code Names I think
is a phenomenal example of that because it's

373
00:25:37.400 --> 00:25:41.200
very few rules, but if all
these opportunities to be interesting and clever and

374
00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:48.279
social. Here's the thing with code
Names, it's it's such a simple game

375
00:25:48.359 --> 00:25:52.119
to play, but I struggle through
a gento every time because it's in this

376
00:25:53.400 --> 00:26:00.640
rickety tower of yes and if butts
over and over and over and in where

377
00:26:00.680 --> 00:26:04.680
people keep come in and asking questions. The best way to learn code names

378
00:26:06.119 --> 00:26:08.279
is to have a group already playing
it, and you walk up and watch

379
00:26:08.440 --> 00:26:12.799
people play it, because they say
three three, and then somebody clicks cards

380
00:26:12.839 --> 00:26:17.000
and then they explode and everyone goes
yes, no, no. The idea

381
00:26:17.119 --> 00:26:21.400
of me trying to describe at first
what the mine field looks like, and

382
00:26:21.480 --> 00:26:22.759
only one person says it, and
then you have to give a clue,

383
00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:27.559
but which words that you associated It's
a lot of individual things. The game

384
00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:32.680
is so simple, but I should
be able to have a sixty seconmsplanation and

385
00:26:32.799 --> 00:26:37.640
walk away. But you can't code
names, despite how wonderful it is,

386
00:26:37.359 --> 00:26:41.319
is so hard to teach. But
the moment you get it, you get

387
00:26:41.319 --> 00:26:44.319
it, it's like, oh,
of course. And then even still there's

388
00:26:44.519 --> 00:26:49.319
yes and butts, like you can
actually click on cards from previous rounds that

389
00:26:49.359 --> 00:26:55.960
it's not actually negative. There's all
these little tiny things that make it very,

390
00:26:56.039 --> 00:27:00.519
very very hard to teach, despite
us simple. It is like staring

391
00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:02.640
up the scene because I'm thinking myself, I'm like, when did I learn

392
00:27:02.680 --> 00:27:04.680
how to play codenames? And I
learned how to play codenames the exact way

393
00:27:04.680 --> 00:27:08.759
you described, where a bunch of
people at a party were already playing codenames,

394
00:27:10.039 --> 00:27:11.200
and because I was like, well, the I learned code names really

395
00:27:11.200 --> 00:27:14.400
easily, and I was like,
oh my god, I learned it that

396
00:27:14.599 --> 00:27:18.079
way. Yep. I've never thought
about it. Yeah, but it is

397
00:27:18.119 --> 00:27:22.240
a Russian nesting doll of ifans,
statements, ifans, and butts if if

398
00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:29.200
as a as a thought experiment,
I try to verbally teach codenames to people

399
00:27:29.319 --> 00:27:32.240
sometimes, and you will discover it's
one of the hardest teachers you have.

400
00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:34.839
It's it's wild. Yeah, no, you're not wrong, because I try

401
00:27:34.839 --> 00:27:37.880
to teach you to a couple of
friends a few years back at a party

402
00:27:37.880 --> 00:27:40.079
and they're like, well, how
does this work? And then how does

403
00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:41.960
that change this? And then where
does that go there? And I was

404
00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:47.000
like, oh my god, it's
so finicky and weirdly weird. Ways.

405
00:27:47.880 --> 00:27:49.480
Yeah, I'm sending a theme with
yours, Graham, like this is like

406
00:27:49.640 --> 00:27:56.680
if things are hard to teach,
here's here's my weirdly finicky I want to

407
00:27:56.720 --> 00:27:59.880
just come up strong in my favorite
game. And then I was like,

408
00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:03.200
well, what is light? What
do I like to bust out? And

409
00:28:03.319 --> 00:28:06.920
I've thought about the difficulty of the
teach of code names for ages because I

410
00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:11.440
love it. And games with large
player counts are also very useful to me

411
00:28:11.559 --> 00:28:15.880
because they're malleable. But also like
you have your two to four games,

412
00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:18.680
you know player counts, which is
very intimate, you know, and if

413
00:28:18.759 --> 00:28:22.279
you have a large board game night, then maybe you split into other tables

414
00:28:22.759 --> 00:28:26.680
or you don't want to do that. So okay, what large player count

415
00:28:26.720 --> 00:28:29.720
games do we have? Codenames is
one that has done a lot of work

416
00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:32.640
for me in those settings, So
I've thought about it a lot over the

417
00:28:32.759 --> 00:28:36.119
years. And then see and I
went almost for the opposite in the speciroom

418
00:28:36.119 --> 00:28:37.480
where I just considered games that I
really loved. But I think if I

419
00:28:37.559 --> 00:28:42.799
went back and thought about like convention
games that I have taught before or like

420
00:28:42.920 --> 00:28:45.440
have demoed a lot, Like King
of Tokyo is one that I demo to

421
00:28:45.519 --> 00:28:51.079
metric of and I always don't I
don't love King of Tokyo, but like,

422
00:28:51.279 --> 00:28:53.480
but just thinking about, like what's
the weird finicky bit that always derails

423
00:28:53.559 --> 00:28:57.160
the demo, And it's always the
powers, like the power deck and like

424
00:28:57.240 --> 00:29:00.640
buying things to lead bullows. Everyone
gets the this is this is Giant Monster

425
00:29:00.759 --> 00:29:04.119
combat yatzi up until you start buying
powers and then they're like, oh I

426
00:29:04.160 --> 00:29:07.480
don't, I don't care anymore.
They're like their eyes glaze over um,

427
00:29:08.440 --> 00:29:11.359
which is which is weird to teach
that because I'm like I almost always would

428
00:29:11.400 --> 00:29:14.440
start them with a round and then
I'd be like, all right, cool,

429
00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:15.720
we've all done one role, let's
do powers now. But just like

430
00:29:17.079 --> 00:29:18.680
now I'm thinking about like all of
the big games that I've taught, and

431
00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:22.240
I'm like, man, there's a
lot of like weirdly finicky bits that make

432
00:29:22.279 --> 00:29:26.039
it a hard teach. Huh.
Well, I love code names you're I'm

433
00:29:26.079 --> 00:29:30.480
not bringing it up because of the
teaching element. I it's it's at the

434
00:29:30.559 --> 00:29:33.119
beginning to the top. You were
like, okay, so in eight nine

435
00:29:33.279 --> 00:29:36.200
ten. These are games that if
you're in the room or you're an ear

436
00:29:36.319 --> 00:29:38.640
shot and somebody says I'm playing,
who wants to play? You go running

437
00:29:38.799 --> 00:29:44.160
right Like that's that's kind of the
emotional qualifier. I love Code Enames.

438
00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:45.279
I would play. No, I
do love Code Dames too. That's I

439
00:29:45.400 --> 00:29:48.319
was just thinking because you were talking
about the teaching and I was like,

440
00:29:48.359 --> 00:29:49.319
man, there's a lot of teachable
stuff. No, I got you.

441
00:29:49.400 --> 00:29:53.480
I got you a through line.
Man, we love we love a good

442
00:29:53.519 --> 00:29:56.079
through line, and if you're a
reporter, we know that you love a

443
00:29:56.160 --> 00:30:00.079
good buye line. Um. On
that note, it was a terrible dad

444
00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:03.680
joke. I'm so sorry everyone who's
listening. No, I'm not after the

445
00:30:03.759 --> 00:30:10.279
rain. You haven't copped picked up
a copy yet. He has half a

446
00:30:10.319 --> 00:30:15.039
favorite Rage Shadow Legends. Rage Shadow
Legends is my number. Actually, rag

447
00:30:15.079 --> 00:30:18.480
Shadow Legend is both of my entries
on the list at this pan. I

448
00:30:18.519 --> 00:30:21.000
mean, there's so much to talk
about. You got so much talk about

449
00:30:21.079 --> 00:30:22.839
Race Shadow Legends. If you use
Courton Code Dorkey. Right now you can

450
00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:27.720
get thirty three re rules and fifty
premium currency silver. I probably should play

451
00:30:27.799 --> 00:30:30.440
Rage Shadow Legends once if I'm gonna
make these jokes stick a little bit,

452
00:30:32.359 --> 00:30:36.680
refuse on principle, every time a
YouTube video I'm watching gets interrupted by Rage

453
00:30:36.680 --> 00:30:38.519
Shadow Legends, I'm like, I'm
never gonna play you for as long as

454
00:30:38.559 --> 00:30:44.240
I live. The one, the
one good brand integration of that that I've

455
00:30:44.279 --> 00:30:48.039
seen was there's a guy named Internet
Historian who got to the sponsorship by Rage

456
00:30:48.039 --> 00:30:52.079
Shadow Legends, and he did like
a full, like five ten minutes skit

457
00:30:52.880 --> 00:30:57.359
about rage Shadow Legends that felt so
unhinged and so avantcard that I was like,

458
00:30:57.480 --> 00:31:02.319
if there was ever gonna be an
ad that makes me play rate Shadow

459
00:31:02.400 --> 00:31:07.039
Legends, it's gonna be this one. Like it involves someone giving birth,

460
00:31:07.119 --> 00:31:10.640
Like I was like, what is
happening right now? Anyway? Um,

461
00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:12.920
My next one on this list is
one that I like a lot, but

462
00:31:14.160 --> 00:31:18.319
it is one that I think is
a victim of its own marketing. Um,

463
00:31:18.400 --> 00:31:22.640
and that's Viscounts of the West Kingdom, which is a shem Phillips title.

464
00:31:22.839 --> 00:31:25.400
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course, yep. Um

465
00:31:25.759 --> 00:31:30.559
people love those games. They I
mean, they're very popular among a certain

466
00:31:30.599 --> 00:31:37.359
segment of gamers, and I am
one of those games. Like I'm not

467
00:31:37.400 --> 00:31:40.160
gonna let you get away with it. No, that's okay. I think

468
00:31:40.200 --> 00:31:42.200
there are some people that like like
the historical time period that it is said

469
00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:47.720
in UM that like really early pre
Norman conquest UM. Like I know personally

470
00:31:47.759 --> 00:31:49.000
a couple of people who are like
big history buffs like me who love that

471
00:31:49.119 --> 00:31:52.519
time period. And I think there
are some people that also really love Renegade

472
00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:56.000
games because that's who distributes the Garfield
Games product here in the US. And

473
00:31:56.079 --> 00:32:00.400
there are some people that just like
deck builders. Which is my biggest gripe

474
00:32:00.440 --> 00:32:04.640
with this game is it market itself
as a deck builder. And I don't

475
00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:06.519
know if this is a gripe for
you, Graham or not, but for

476
00:32:06.680 --> 00:32:08.480
me, if a game is going
to market itself as something, I would

477
00:32:08.559 --> 00:32:13.519
like that element of the game to
feel like it matters. This is the

478
00:32:13.599 --> 00:32:15.039
one game where I'm like, the
deck building doesn't matter at all, at

479
00:32:15.119 --> 00:32:17.319
least I don't feel like it has. I have felt like it has had

480
00:32:17.400 --> 00:32:22.359
zero impact on gameplay. So like
the first couple times that I played this

481
00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:24.680
because it's marketed as a deck builder
in addition to some other things. I'm

482
00:32:24.759 --> 00:32:28.720
playing it like a deck builder.
I'm trying to add new heroes to my

483
00:32:28.799 --> 00:32:30.559
Dack. I'm trying to add new
powers to my dad. I'm like,

484
00:32:30.599 --> 00:32:35.160
oh, this is gonna be and
I'm getting blown out of the water every

485
00:32:35.200 --> 00:32:38.000
time. And it's it's less like
because in a good deck builder, you

486
00:32:38.079 --> 00:32:42.599
are trying to establish some nuance and
some strategy that you can continually play through,

487
00:32:42.880 --> 00:32:44.960
whereas with this one, I felt
like, I'm like, I need

488
00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:49.960
to lean into a strategy and then
beat that strategy to death at the expense

489
00:32:50.039 --> 00:32:53.319
of everything else. It's a game
that I feel like, you can't you

490
00:32:53.440 --> 00:32:58.039
can't try to do multiple things.
Okay, you have to do one thing

491
00:32:58.119 --> 00:33:02.200
really well. Um, and that
that is ah sure, It's it's the

492
00:33:02.559 --> 00:33:08.400
uh oh god, um, the
caverna versus a gricola thing. It's the

493
00:33:08.480 --> 00:33:13.319
idea of like, can you can
you be uh do you do your point

494
00:33:13.400 --> 00:33:17.720
salad or do you have to master
a single thing? And unfortunately for designs

495
00:33:17.799 --> 00:33:22.799
that have the master single thing,
you need to know that go it in

496
00:33:22.920 --> 00:33:25.400
because you don't, you get you
get smushed. And that's crazy. It

497
00:33:25.640 --> 00:33:29.599
is like when I when I was
first taught this game, I didn't know

498
00:33:29.680 --> 00:33:30.920
that that was the thing, and
I got absolutely crushed and I was like,

499
00:33:30.960 --> 00:33:35.319
all right, cool, I'm going
to try to relearn this. And

500
00:33:35.720 --> 00:33:38.480
when I taught it to other players, um, I vividly remember teaching this

501
00:33:38.559 --> 00:33:43.599
live brother and being like, listen, Colin, go for X strategy.

502
00:33:44.200 --> 00:33:47.319
It's the easiest one to get if
you're new, and it's like it's sort

503
00:33:47.319 --> 00:33:51.799
of the the manuscript strategy, which
sort of feeds itself pretty naturally. It's

504
00:33:51.799 --> 00:33:53.440
simple for like, if you're new
to the game to get and he blew

505
00:33:53.519 --> 00:33:58.759
everyone out of the water in his
first game by like since like an order

506
00:33:58.799 --> 00:34:02.839
of magnitude that is huge, And
so one's the being fed one thing and

507
00:34:02.920 --> 00:34:07.639
then being given another and then the
other one is I think this game suffers

508
00:34:07.719 --> 00:34:13.639
from. It presents a lot of
tactical nuance and strategic decisions, and what

509
00:34:13.760 --> 00:34:19.079
it really boils down to is how
well can you execute one thing at the

510
00:34:19.159 --> 00:34:25.000
expense of everything else? And that
sucks, like as as a when you

511
00:34:25.079 --> 00:34:28.639
think you're going to be going into
something that's a little more adaptable, a

512
00:34:28.719 --> 00:34:31.000
little more open, a little more
free form, and you have to try

513
00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:34.800
to adapt your strategies on the fly. No, not really. You can

514
00:34:34.840 --> 00:34:37.559
occasionally counter some people, but like, as long as you're doing your one

515
00:34:37.639 --> 00:34:40.400
thing better than everybody else, you're
going to crush. And I still love

516
00:34:40.519 --> 00:34:43.840
Viscounts. It's still a game that
I will play a lot. It's still

517
00:34:43.880 --> 00:34:46.519
a game that I think is brilliantly
designed. But I think it is pretending

518
00:34:46.559 --> 00:34:49.679
to be something that it is not. This is not a game with a

519
00:34:49.719 --> 00:34:52.519
lot of nuance. This is not
a game that has a lot of different

520
00:34:52.559 --> 00:34:55.519
open decision making. This is a
game where if you can execute your one

521
00:34:55.639 --> 00:35:00.800
game plan better than another person can
execute their one game plan, you're gonna

522
00:35:00.840 --> 00:35:06.760
you're gonna crush. So that's whenever
smells a lot like your Tea Dragons criticism.

523
00:35:06.920 --> 00:35:09.599
This marketing thing is marketing itself in
a certain way. You're to my

524
00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:15.199
how hard it is to teach,
and for what reasons? Maybe the marketing

525
00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:19.880
of it is one thing, but
just I think my biggest gripe if it

526
00:35:20.119 --> 00:35:22.360
is like you're talking about presentation,
right, yeah, the game and what

527
00:35:22.480 --> 00:35:27.599
it is, you know, I
think wasted potential might be my biggest gripe

528
00:35:27.639 --> 00:35:30.320
with my accounts because I think it
presents itself as having a lot of different

529
00:35:30.360 --> 00:35:35.119
avenues and then you really only get
to do one well if you want to

530
00:35:35.239 --> 00:35:37.599
have a chance of winning the game, and so you lose a lot of

531
00:35:37.719 --> 00:35:40.119
nuance and you lose a lot of
the strategy, which is why I play

532
00:35:40.199 --> 00:35:44.239
crunchy games like that in the first
place. If that makes sense, that's

533
00:35:44.239 --> 00:35:45.440
probably a better way of That's probably
a better way of me to put it.

534
00:35:45.480 --> 00:35:49.119
But yeah, no, partially,
Yeah, the marketing is also kind

535
00:35:49.119 --> 00:35:53.480
of a personal I also also there's
this thing of like they're like, you've

536
00:35:53.559 --> 00:35:57.960
you've said you're a thing and you've
you've lied to me, Kyle On,

537
00:35:58.199 --> 00:36:00.800
You've lied to me? How dare
you deceive me by accounts of the West

538
00:36:00.840 --> 00:36:06.239
game? It does sound like Skeletor
or something. So you have deceived me

539
00:36:06.360 --> 00:36:09.960
for the last time by accounts of
the West Kingdom? Man you like satisfied?

540
00:36:12.199 --> 00:36:15.719
Just again? I'll buy this game
as well, Godfield Games. If

541
00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:22.960
you weren't based on the Kiwi,
I'd be curious. I kind of want

542
00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:25.920
to do a game review as Skeletor
now sure, I mean bonus content.

543
00:36:27.039 --> 00:36:30.480
We gotta fill those YouTube somehow.
Oh you know what, I'm not designing

544
00:36:30.519 --> 00:36:34.480
a game that there's people for cannons, but I think I think that's my

545
00:36:34.519 --> 00:36:37.159
biggest scripe is like if a game
offers and do once and then it turns

546
00:36:37.159 --> 00:36:42.719
out as a lie, is a
huge scripe of mine. Um. I

547
00:36:42.960 --> 00:36:49.400
find that to be most negative game
experiences I have is that unless it's a

548
00:36:49.519 --> 00:36:53.639
party game, uh, it's it's
it presented itself as a quote unquote strategy

549
00:36:53.719 --> 00:36:58.159
game, right, the most generic
room you have available. The idea is

550
00:36:58.280 --> 00:37:00.000
you will be able to make these
decisions. And so often than not,

551
00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:04.960
you play those games and you realize
there's a lot less to it than there

552
00:37:04.960 --> 00:37:08.320
actually is, and that yeah,
and that's it's an issue, especially also

553
00:37:08.440 --> 00:37:12.039
on the issue of party games.
Do you find yourself This is not even

554
00:37:12.840 --> 00:37:15.000
related to this episode, but if
I don't ask you no, I will

555
00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:19.239
forget. Do you find yourself like
hating a lot of cards against humanity clones?

556
00:37:19.559 --> 00:37:28.239
Because I find myself I don't company. I mean, I'm not an

557
00:37:28.280 --> 00:37:31.199
opportunity to play a lot of them, But like your playtester or body,

558
00:37:31.239 --> 00:37:35.760
I will play just about anything.
Once I will be pretty weary, I'll

559
00:37:35.800 --> 00:37:37.800
have one foot out the door.
If I look at a presentation of something

560
00:37:37.840 --> 00:37:42.320
and I'm like, you know,
X for bad people, Like it's pretty

561
00:37:42.320 --> 00:37:46.679
clear when something is trying to go
for that same off color, simple giggling

562
00:37:46.840 --> 00:37:51.400
kind of experience. Right. Um. I don't play a lot of them,

563
00:37:51.719 --> 00:37:54.480
you know, I walk past them
in board game miles when I'm looking

564
00:37:54.480 --> 00:37:59.840
at like, oh, what Target
exclusives around these days? Or they get

565
00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:02.039
sold to me on Amazon and I'm
like, Amazon, you don't know me

566
00:38:02.119 --> 00:38:05.800
at all. You need to steal
my data a little harder. Um.

567
00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:10.280
Uh. The last one I think
I've played and I legitimately enjoyed was the

568
00:38:10.400 --> 00:38:14.039
Meme one. It's like, what
do you mean? Oh yeah, that

569
00:38:14.199 --> 00:38:19.320
was pretty good again at like very
very low level, just because like you

570
00:38:19.480 --> 00:38:23.519
got the first laugh looking at the
image which everybody is known. And then

571
00:38:24.039 --> 00:38:30.360
my favorite part of these games,
uh is the user created content so people

572
00:38:30.360 --> 00:38:34.840
are come up with their own punchlines. So I'll play that kind of party

573
00:38:34.880 --> 00:38:38.079
game forever because it's I could play
with Grandma and you play differently, you

574
00:38:38.199 --> 00:38:40.760
play with kids, you play differently, you play with your friends, and

575
00:38:40.920 --> 00:38:45.920
you can make all the off color
jokes you what, because it's it's valuable.

576
00:38:45.039 --> 00:38:49.440
It's not the card itself, which
you know, Cars against Humanity.

577
00:38:49.840 --> 00:38:52.480
I hate that game. Ever I've
ever talked about how much I hate that

578
00:38:52.519 --> 00:38:54.400
game. I think we've alluded to
it. We should do an episode of

579
00:38:54.480 --> 00:38:58.039
Like, we should just do an
episode of episode that we hate, like

580
00:38:58.119 --> 00:39:00.920
these games we despise. Um because
I was thinking about this because the last

581
00:39:00.960 --> 00:39:05.960
one that I really truly enjoyed was
Charity Party. Um, what's Chartie Party?

582
00:39:06.199 --> 00:39:09.360
It's it's like CARGI Humanity, except
instead of a prompt, you have

583
00:39:09.480 --> 00:39:14.239
a graph with an X and Y
axis, and so you are actually whatever

584
00:39:14.280 --> 00:39:16.199
you're playing. I'm already on board. I'm already excited. Goes on that

585
00:39:16.360 --> 00:39:21.320
one. And then because of that
you wind up with less off color jokes

586
00:39:21.360 --> 00:39:25.039
sometimes and more stuff that feels true
to life. Um, like, so

587
00:39:25.159 --> 00:39:28.519
how do you use the graph?
So like, all right, I'm gonna

588
00:39:28.559 --> 00:39:30.519
drab visual aid because I have a
visual aid. So like if it's like,

589
00:39:31.320 --> 00:39:35.800
what is it? Um? So
like like X will be blank,

590
00:39:36.079 --> 00:39:38.079
so like whatever this is will be
blank. I'll be like, um,

591
00:39:38.360 --> 00:39:44.559
both of you listening on not YouTube, Kyle is drawing an X Y graph,

592
00:39:44.679 --> 00:39:52.440
So please thank you in your minds
imagine fantasy ste bezos um and his

593
00:39:52.639 --> 00:39:57.559
face is a graph. It's all
right, so like this one like so

594
00:39:57.639 --> 00:40:00.199
for example theodograph, it was like
x's blank and it says age and the

595
00:40:00.320 --> 00:40:02.840
age goes up and then this is
the line. You have to tell me

596
00:40:02.920 --> 00:40:07.280
what would go up with age.
The only reason I remember this is because

597
00:40:07.320 --> 00:40:12.360
I won this round and my card
was the likelihood of buying a value pack

598
00:40:12.440 --> 00:40:15.639
of Werther's Originals. It just goes
up with age and like it's funny,

599
00:40:15.639 --> 00:40:19.119
like and people are like, oh
man, that's totally at works, Like

600
00:40:19.519 --> 00:40:27.199
oh my god. So the cards
are always yeah, y axis the it's

601
00:40:27.400 --> 00:40:30.440
x or y, so the card
is different there, the prompts vary,

602
00:40:30.639 --> 00:40:32.760
the axis is very and then occasionally
there will be ones where you have to

603
00:40:32.840 --> 00:40:37.840
make both the X and the y
axis um, which are its? O.

604
00:40:37.119 --> 00:40:39.920
I would try it, I would, I would worry there would be

605
00:40:40.000 --> 00:40:45.800
a lot of rounds that would fall
flat because you just put in a card

606
00:40:45.880 --> 00:40:50.039
and then your brain tries to work
to understand a line graph and you're like,

607
00:40:50.159 --> 00:40:52.960
I guess that's a joke, right, you know what? And I

608
00:40:53.079 --> 00:40:57.760
had the same thought process when I
tried it. But then, like every

609
00:40:57.800 --> 00:40:59.800
so often someone would be like,
yeah, I'm just chucking in a dead

610
00:40:59.840 --> 00:41:05.559
car because I have a dead card. But it didn't fall flat way more

611
00:41:05.639 --> 00:41:08.400
often than I thought it would,
like like the game rose to the occasion

612
00:41:08.519 --> 00:41:13.159
way more than it had any business
doing, which is cool. I and

613
00:41:13.280 --> 00:41:16.599
it was. It's up one of
the few cards ish cards adjacent games that

614
00:41:16.639 --> 00:41:22.239
I've kept because it still holds up, which is crazy. So there are

615
00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:25.880
games in this in this realm that
are you know that I do see a

616
00:41:25.960 --> 00:41:30.920
lot of because they keep showing up
on shelves or they've sold, um a

617
00:41:31.159 --> 00:41:37.079
factor more than than other things,
things like super Fight that's been everywhere for

618
00:41:37.159 --> 00:41:42.400
a long, long long time.
And the way you save games like this

619
00:41:42.639 --> 00:41:46.400
is by making them more creative.
The way I play super Fight particularly it

620
00:41:46.719 --> 00:41:50.519
like again, I'm thinking about when
I when I play with like middle schoolers

621
00:41:50.639 --> 00:41:52.960
or whatever. It's not who would
win? You have to start a round

622
00:41:53.000 --> 00:41:55.960
and then you say what the round
is? Who who would be the best

623
00:41:57.039 --> 00:42:02.519
spy? Yeah? Who would you
know? Um, have the best solo

624
00:42:02.599 --> 00:42:07.239
in a rock concert? Um,
you know who who had the best chance

625
00:42:07.320 --> 00:42:09.400
of like meeting the president? Yeah, that's how you do it is you

626
00:42:09.559 --> 00:42:15.960
have to add again this like layer
because who who wins and fights? It's

627
00:42:15.239 --> 00:42:17.480
it's boring, you know, Like
I guess I have rockets, like I

628
00:42:17.559 --> 00:42:21.159
said, PiZZ of yours, but
if it's like who is the best spy?

629
00:42:21.280 --> 00:42:23.239
All of a sudden, like everything
gets recontextualized and then you get to

630
00:42:23.320 --> 00:42:27.559
use the cards in a new way. So I would play. That's how

631
00:42:28.119 --> 00:42:30.840
these party games could see it for
me, and that sounds like something that

632
00:42:30.920 --> 00:42:34.639
we should do for the How do
you hack into a game episode and how

633
00:42:34.679 --> 00:42:36.840
do you make the game your own? Because that's a pretty good hack for

634
00:42:36.880 --> 00:42:38.559
party games. I'm not gonna liegram. I don't like that one. I'm

635
00:42:38.599 --> 00:42:42.039
sorry. So what is your what
is your next one? My next my

636
00:42:42.159 --> 00:42:45.679
next game? Yeah? So um
now I have one right in the middle.

637
00:42:45.719 --> 00:42:50.360
I have my game that's like the
kind of like first real hot taste

638
00:42:50.400 --> 00:42:52.599
of something when it's that I love, and then code names, which is

639
00:42:52.639 --> 00:42:57.800
something I pullout in the middle.
Uh, the next game I'm talking about.

640
00:42:57.920 --> 00:43:00.519
I love because I can teach it
to people who don't know anything about

641
00:43:00.559 --> 00:43:06.360
games, and I feel like it's
still exciting and interesting to veterans. I

642
00:43:06.559 --> 00:43:12.159
love Mysterium. M Yeah, I
think Mysterium is a really interesting game because

643
00:43:12.159 --> 00:43:15.039
I also love Dixit. It's funny
we were talking about party games. I

644
00:43:15.079 --> 00:43:17.239
don't know what you think of Dixit. Why do you think of Dixon?

645
00:43:17.320 --> 00:43:22.360
I like dix Dixit is one of
the few games that I I recognize how

646
00:43:22.440 --> 00:43:24.760
good it is. But I have
gotten rid of every copy of Dixit that

647
00:43:24.840 --> 00:43:30.400
I've ever owned because it doesn't hit
the table enough for my particular group.

648
00:43:31.079 --> 00:43:35.440
But I do like when I played
it, I was like, this game

649
00:43:35.519 --> 00:43:37.960
is really well designed, and it
was one that like I find myself coming

650
00:43:38.000 --> 00:43:39.840
back to over and over, being
like, you know, that was a

651
00:43:39.920 --> 00:43:44.000
really great way of presenting a game. Mysterium. I love, by the

652
00:43:44.079 --> 00:43:49.639
way like game, and I've seen
the big Dixit cards were used in a

653
00:43:49.679 --> 00:43:53.360
couple other contexts. It's party games, so it's you know, it's demagnosticum

654
00:43:53.599 --> 00:44:00.800
and the different versions of Dixit are
wildly variable based on the quality and complexity

655
00:44:00.840 --> 00:44:05.000
of the art um the basics it
on things very good. Dixit Journey,

656
00:44:05.679 --> 00:44:08.199
I think it's by far the best. Uh it's at a print um,

657
00:44:08.280 --> 00:44:12.360
but I love the art on that
one specifically, and most of my other

658
00:44:12.679 --> 00:44:16.920
favorite editions have the same artist on
things, um. And so Mysterium understands

659
00:44:17.000 --> 00:44:21.639
this. It has the same sized
cards because again the component is really really

660
00:44:21.679 --> 00:44:24.639
important. But all those cards are
really complex, they're they're deep. Um.

661
00:44:24.920 --> 00:44:28.159
There's a lot of details that is
spread into it. Those are the

662
00:44:28.199 --> 00:44:31.360
best dixit cards. Um. And
it has a theme which is fabulous,

663
00:44:31.880 --> 00:44:37.079
and it's a theme that immediately everybody
understands. Clue um. You know,

664
00:44:37.719 --> 00:44:43.679
we wish it was the the murder
mystery logic puzzle that it's trying to be,

665
00:44:43.880 --> 00:44:45.599
but there's a lot of parts about
it that just like don't work at

666
00:44:45.639 --> 00:44:49.760
all. But it's a it's an
old assign. But you come in with

667
00:44:49.880 --> 00:44:53.559
Mysterium and you're like, oh uh
we need suspect, location, and weapon.

668
00:44:53.679 --> 00:44:58.840
People get it immediately, that's right, right. And then I love

669
00:44:59.039 --> 00:45:04.039
asymmetric um gameplay, and I also
love a rule which tie everything together.

670
00:45:04.199 --> 00:45:06.639
So explain that that one person is
going to be a ghost that's going to

671
00:45:06.679 --> 00:45:09.119
be given these uh these dreams,
and everyone's like, great, let's play.

672
00:45:09.119 --> 00:45:14.239
And then you go, h the
ghost can never talk and people are

673
00:45:14.280 --> 00:45:19.599
like what. So the dramatic nature
of the knock games that people who are

674
00:45:19.679 --> 00:45:22.599
your big you know, crunchy I
want to go play, you know,

675
00:45:22.679 --> 00:45:28.159
Terraforming Martyrs for four hours. I
can get them excited about a Mysterium game.

676
00:45:28.320 --> 00:45:31.320
Yeah. So I've explained everything so
far that I like about the game.

677
00:45:31.400 --> 00:45:36.440
That's the good parts, and there's
a lot more to the game.

678
00:45:37.400 --> 00:45:40.440
Uh that every time I pulled it
out, I liked a little less at

679
00:45:40.480 --> 00:45:43.639
a little last, a little less, a little less, a little less,

680
00:45:43.760 --> 00:45:45.440
to the point where now where I'm
like, oh man, how do

681
00:45:45.519 --> 00:45:49.920
I just hack this thing to bits? This thing is just two or three

682
00:45:50.079 --> 00:45:53.239
levels more than dixit, which is
perfect, but then there's an extra thirty

683
00:45:53.280 --> 00:45:57.159
percent of aside on top of it. So it's cooperative. I'm like,

684
00:45:57.400 --> 00:46:01.519
dixit. Dixit as competitive, and
in the cooperative nature of Mysterium, you

685
00:46:01.639 --> 00:46:06.719
are guessing which card you think is
applied to your clue, and people can

686
00:46:06.760 --> 00:46:08.920
say yes or no, and they
get little points in their little pools,

687
00:46:09.159 --> 00:46:13.320
and you go through three rounds,
and the end, based on however one

688
00:46:13.480 --> 00:46:16.159
did, is how many cards you
get and how many you flip over at

689
00:46:16.199 --> 00:46:22.239
the same time, and you're going
up these multiple tracks, setting it up

690
00:46:22.280 --> 00:46:25.639
as a pain, breaking it down
as a pain that the whole thing I

691
00:46:25.840 --> 00:46:29.440
want there to be something, because
I don't want it to just be and

692
00:46:29.679 --> 00:46:34.159
we've all solved it, because I
love games with an arc. It has

693
00:46:34.199 --> 00:46:38.079
an arc, but it's arc is
bad. It's just more little bits that

694
00:46:38.199 --> 00:46:43.920
you have on it. People get
it immediately, and then at the end

695
00:46:43.960 --> 00:46:46.519
you're like, Okay, I'm going
to teach it a completely different game,

696
00:46:46.960 --> 00:46:51.440
and people go what And then you
sit down and you explain the final round.

697
00:46:52.039 --> 00:46:54.559
It's not fun to do. It's
tense, and it does its job,

698
00:46:55.119 --> 00:47:00.360
but I really don't like it.
I want there to be a way

699
00:47:00.920 --> 00:47:05.960
to just end off with a flourish
where everyone high fives, because those are

700
00:47:05.960 --> 00:47:09.440
the best cooperative games. Yeah,
and and Mysterium does have those moments of

701
00:47:09.679 --> 00:47:12.960
like the first time I played it, we got it by the skin of

702
00:47:13.039 --> 00:47:16.239
its teeth and it was I mean
the energy in the room was electric,

703
00:47:16.559 --> 00:47:22.960
like what everyone freaking out high five
and like you describe, jumping up and

704
00:47:22.039 --> 00:47:24.480
down, thrilled. And then the
next time we failed and it was like

705
00:47:25.800 --> 00:47:29.920
all of the life had been just
sucked out. So yeah, that's I

706
00:47:29.960 --> 00:47:32.840
think that's a great Yeah, that's
a that's a great root. No no

707
00:47:32.960 --> 00:47:37.960
notes time out of ten, no
notes. I've tried to play the other

708
00:47:37.280 --> 00:47:43.760
versions. I got it for like
ten ten bucks something whatever it's called Mysterium

709
00:47:44.719 --> 00:47:50.320
Circus or whatever whatever it's all.
Um. Uh didn't like it, yea,

710
00:47:52.440 --> 00:47:55.480
whatever whatever it's called. Um.
I wanted to be like, oh

711
00:47:55.599 --> 00:47:59.679
man, it's everything that I liked
about Mysterium. They hacked out the other

712
00:47:59.760 --> 00:48:02.440
bits, but it sucks too much
life, yeah out of it? Yeah,

713
00:48:02.480 --> 00:48:06.360
I agree. I tried it at
a party with some friends of mine

714
00:48:06.360 --> 00:48:08.119
who have played lots of games of
and I was struck by how little I

715
00:48:08.239 --> 00:48:13.239
cared about Misterium Zergus. I was
like, this game sucks, this awful,

716
00:48:13.440 --> 00:48:15.000
like I don't know, I don't
even remember what it was about it,

717
00:48:15.719 --> 00:48:17.800
yeah, like Misterium Circums. Like
I was like, this is a

718
00:48:19.320 --> 00:48:23.119
like just a just a cold slap
in the face. Like I just I

719
00:48:23.199 --> 00:48:27.440
did not enjoy this as all lucky. We've only ever played at once and

720
00:48:27.519 --> 00:48:30.360
I will never play it again.
But and I didn't buy it either,

721
00:48:30.440 --> 00:48:31.840
so not even out any money.
My friend bought it. Inter was like

722
00:48:31.880 --> 00:48:35.360
I love mister Human. I was
like I do too. Probably be good

723
00:48:37.760 --> 00:48:44.559
mission. Oh okay, for those
of you're listening on your favorite podcast app

724
00:48:45.079 --> 00:48:52.039
uh Kyle is mouthing words because he
doesn't know how audio works. Ah well,

725
00:48:52.079 --> 00:48:54.039
also too, Yeah, we gotta
kid the people guessing, all right.

726
00:48:54.480 --> 00:48:58.360
Last one. I think it's super
funny, by the way, the

727
00:48:58.400 --> 00:49:01.800
way that you structured your first two, because your core argument for your first

728
00:49:01.840 --> 00:49:07.320
two is my core argument for my
number one, which is of my top

729
00:49:07.360 --> 00:49:10.480
five Adams of all time. I
saved it for last. I love blood

730
00:49:10.559 --> 00:49:14.400
Rage. It is one of my
favorite games of all time. I do

731
00:49:14.719 --> 00:49:16.840
and for As and of course Graham. It is a drafting It is a

732
00:49:16.960 --> 00:49:22.719
drafting game because yeah, I'm at
the very least consistent. There's a lot

733
00:49:22.800 --> 00:49:24.599
that I love about Blood Rage.
I love the theme of blood Rage.

734
00:49:24.599 --> 00:49:28.480
I'm a big fan of north Smith
and mythology, so the idea of playing

735
00:49:28.519 --> 00:49:31.360
through Ragged Brock has always appealed to
me. Say what you want about you

736
00:49:31.400 --> 00:49:35.639
know Simon and Asma Day in general, but their production value on this one

737
00:49:35.960 --> 00:49:39.000
is insane. I love the art, I love the miniatures. I think

738
00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:45.199
it's a wonderful presentation. I enjoy
that although the some of its parts is

739
00:49:45.280 --> 00:49:49.760
rather complex, the individual elements of
Blood Rage are relatively easy to teach.

740
00:49:49.800 --> 00:49:52.360
Everyone has played a drafting game.
Everyone has played a dude in the map

741
00:49:52.440 --> 00:49:55.599
game. The player aids are pretty
clear. There's some strong iconography. Thanks

742
00:49:55.639 --> 00:49:59.280
Graham for ruining me that word exists
because I use it all the time and

743
00:49:59.320 --> 00:50:01.320
I don't know why for got it
for this episode. So there's a lot

744
00:50:01.400 --> 00:50:06.760
of good stuff about blood Rage,
and it remains in my top five games

745
00:50:06.800 --> 00:50:12.159
for a reason. My biggest issue
with blood Rage comes into the teach of

746
00:50:12.280 --> 00:50:15.480
blood Rage. Blood Rage is a
deeply competitive game, and it is a

747
00:50:15.559 --> 00:50:22.039
deeply competitive game that rewards repeat plays
an understanding of its core tenants and its

748
00:50:22.119 --> 00:50:27.599
core strategies, and even when you
pull your punches on a a demo of

749
00:50:27.719 --> 00:50:34.039
it, learning to play this game
for the first time can be a backbreaking

750
00:50:34.119 --> 00:50:37.280
experience, and it is my biggest
gripe with this is with the first time

751
00:50:37.320 --> 00:50:42.800
that people play this. Generally speaking, they don't just lose, they get

752
00:50:42.920 --> 00:50:46.639
spiked into the center of the earth
and it sucks. And I even tell

753
00:50:46.760 --> 00:50:51.239
people that I go, Hey,
if this is your first time playing blood

754
00:50:51.280 --> 00:50:53.400
Rage, there's a lot of things
that you're not gonna fully get yet,

755
00:50:54.199 --> 00:50:58.880
and a lot of the systems that
I find really intriguing because of the way

756
00:50:58.920 --> 00:51:02.239
they interact with one another are not
necessarily able to be fully understood on a

757
00:51:02.320 --> 00:51:07.679
first playthrough, and as such,
I'm like, you're probably gonna this the

758
00:51:07.760 --> 00:51:09.559
first play is probably gonna is probably
gonna be hard for you. And I

759
00:51:10.000 --> 00:51:13.599
tell that to people that I'm demoing
this game with, and that friends that

760
00:51:13.639 --> 00:51:19.960
I've taught this game too, and
it almost invariably is correct, And that

761
00:51:20.079 --> 00:51:22.960
sucks because you and I, Graham, I think, are people who like

762
00:51:23.119 --> 00:51:25.360
love a good game, and even
if we don't win, Like the first

763
00:51:25.400 --> 00:51:29.119
time I tried blood Rage, I
got spiked into the center of the Earth.

764
00:51:29.440 --> 00:51:31.320
I remember, I got beaten so
badly. I wasn't it wasn't even

765
00:51:31.440 --> 00:51:35.400
close. And I'm sitting there with
a big grin on my face because my

766
00:51:35.480 --> 00:51:37.039
designer brain was ticking. I could
see all the wheels and I was like,

767
00:51:37.719 --> 00:51:39.840
this is so cool. I can't
wait to try this again and put

768
00:51:39.840 --> 00:51:44.159
all the wheels together and even losing, I had a great time. And

769
00:51:44.239 --> 00:51:46.039
my friend like Isaac, tried this
and Isaac got spiked into the center of

770
00:51:46.039 --> 00:51:47.480
the earth. Then he goes,
oh, man, I can't wait to

771
00:51:47.519 --> 00:51:51.480
try this again because he could see
how it all comes together and wants to

772
00:51:51.519 --> 00:51:54.760
try it again. But man,
it takes a certain type of person to

773
00:51:55.599 --> 00:51:59.440
internalize that experience, like there's something
really cool here. I want to try

774
00:51:59.480 --> 00:52:01.960
this a second time, and that
first teach with this game is really really

775
00:52:02.039 --> 00:52:08.880
hard. So so I want to
ask you a question beyond so could disclosure.

776
00:52:09.480 --> 00:52:13.239
Uh, blood Rage is one of
my white whales. I've never played

777
00:52:13.639 --> 00:52:16.880
Blood Rage because right when it came
out and it took the board game world

778
00:52:16.960 --> 00:52:22.800
by storm, I was in between
positions at places, and I did not

779
00:52:22.960 --> 00:52:29.199
have a consistent gaming group at the
time, and it it took the nerd

780
00:52:29.519 --> 00:52:32.519
zone by storm. Everyone's playing it
was everywhere. It was the top of

781
00:52:32.599 --> 00:52:38.039
everybody's best of the year's list.
Um. And it it single handedly launched

782
00:52:38.239 --> 00:52:44.199
Eric Lange from being a great designer
into like a like a household hold name

783
00:52:44.360 --> 00:52:46.480
yeah. Um, and he proceeded
to make a couple of their games,

784
00:52:46.559 --> 00:52:53.440
which nobody really liked. Um uh. But um, So I've never played

785
00:52:53.480 --> 00:52:57.039
Blood Rage, but I understand,
you know, I've seen pictures of it

786
00:52:57.199 --> 00:52:59.800
a thousand times. I understand the
draft date, and you know kind of

787
00:52:59.800 --> 00:53:05.800
the mechanics and stuff. So my
question to you is, why do you

788
00:53:05.920 --> 00:53:09.639
think it's hard to teach beyond just
the complexity. There's plenty of games that

789
00:53:09.719 --> 00:53:14.840
are very complex and you need to
kind of string along kind of betterstand the

790
00:53:14.880 --> 00:53:20.960
systems and how and how you understand
them, because then how are you going

791
00:53:21.000 --> 00:53:22.920
to play the game at all.
That's pretty common. I find that when

792
00:53:22.960 --> 00:53:28.519
teaching the complex games, you need
sample turns, You need to prep people

793
00:53:28.559 --> 00:53:30.239
to say that you need to crash
away through it. If you're playing a

794
00:53:31.159 --> 00:53:36.960
four hour euro there are moments two
and three hours in where multiple people are

795
00:53:36.960 --> 00:53:38.400
going to say, oh, now
I get it. And that's part of

796
00:53:38.480 --> 00:53:43.320
it. So what makes blood Rage
different from that? So it's not the

797
00:53:43.400 --> 00:53:46.000
complexity of it that I think is
the main issue. There's two things that

798
00:53:46.039 --> 00:53:49.559
I think are then issue. So
the complexity of it actually think is a

799
00:53:52.320 --> 00:53:55.199
facet of its success. Because the
individual steps of blood Rage, I think

800
00:53:55.239 --> 00:53:59.199
are quite easy to learn. Right. I can teach you how to draft

801
00:53:59.199 --> 00:54:00.239
the cards, I can teach you
how to move around the map, I

802
00:54:00.320 --> 00:54:07.920
can teach you of the scoring words. But because what you have realistically with

803
00:54:07.960 --> 00:54:10.400
blood Rage, right, you have
three games that are all really strong in

804
00:54:10.519 --> 00:54:15.119
quality that are kind of stapled together. It is the interplay between those different

805
00:54:15.159 --> 00:54:20.400
steps that I give the most hard
bit for players to understand, right,

806
00:54:20.800 --> 00:54:23.400
it is learning to be like looking
at your position on the board and looking

807
00:54:23.440 --> 00:54:25.679
at the cards that you have drafted, like let's say in age two,

808
00:54:25.960 --> 00:54:30.360
and being like, I can't just
take really good cards. I have to

809
00:54:30.440 --> 00:54:34.519
take cards that help my position here
on the board versus what my other players

810
00:54:34.559 --> 00:54:38.000
are doing. Right, So it's
not even necessarily an issue of complexity.

811
00:54:38.039 --> 00:54:43.960
It's an issue of experience, like
take Like doing those things takes time,

812
00:54:44.480 --> 00:54:45.599
but they just do. Like there
are some games where you just kind of

813
00:54:45.639 --> 00:54:50.480
have to put the reps in in
order to like fully understand how those systems

814
00:54:50.519 --> 00:54:52.920
and the interplay between those systems works. And that's really what it is.

815
00:54:53.400 --> 00:54:57.480
Like I will pull my punches in
the game of blood Rage if I'm teaching

816
00:54:57.519 --> 00:55:01.440
it for the first time, and
even doing that, it's still I try

817
00:55:01.519 --> 00:55:05.519
because like I don't want people to
get like it's killed by this because like

818
00:55:05.800 --> 00:55:09.239
but again and again, I have
board game experience and had board game experience.

819
00:55:09.239 --> 00:55:12.320
When I played it for the first
time, I got I mean,

820
00:55:12.519 --> 00:55:16.079
I mean I got obliterated, like
objectively Jess Crush, because there were things

821
00:55:16.199 --> 00:55:21.440
and systems that I wasn't predicting ways
of the evaluating the board that I didn't

822
00:55:21.480 --> 00:55:24.440
evaluate, parts that I probably should
have taken for why position that I should

823
00:55:24.480 --> 00:55:29.679
have. Um, it still sounds
like complexity. It sounds like than the

824
00:55:29.800 --> 00:55:35.800
sheer number of systems and how they
Yeah, and maybe experience, it's that'sy

825
00:55:36.440 --> 00:55:39.079
systems mastery. Yeah, systems mastery
is probably the best way to put And

826
00:55:39.119 --> 00:55:44.079
you're right, it's it's the complexity
of the teach versus the complexity of the

827
00:55:44.119 --> 00:55:46.199
experience. They're all complexity. So
yeah, I guess it's that too.

828
00:55:46.599 --> 00:55:50.719
I will say if you are teaching
this the second point that I will make,

829
00:55:50.760 --> 00:55:53.800
and this is mitigated if you are
upfront about this during the teach.

830
00:55:54.360 --> 00:56:00.320
But when I was first taught blood
rage the importance of rage as a source

831
00:56:00.519 --> 00:56:04.480
in the game. Blood though,
about blood though? What about the blood

832
00:56:04.519 --> 00:56:10.239
though? What about blood though?
Dj andrks t shirt and it's gonna say

833
00:56:10.280 --> 00:56:14.719
what about about the blood though?
Right? Well, so, for those

834
00:56:14.719 --> 00:56:16.440
of you who have ever played Aboard, rage is your action points. The

835
00:56:16.519 --> 00:56:20.679
more rage you have, the more
stuff you get to do an individual round.

836
00:56:21.079 --> 00:56:24.079
And the one thing I tried to
tell everybody is rage is the most

837
00:56:24.119 --> 00:56:28.239
important resource in the game. You
need to try to get rage early and

838
00:56:28.360 --> 00:56:30.840
often. Rage is the most important
resource in the game. If you remember

839
00:56:30.960 --> 00:56:35.920
one thing from this teach before you
start playing, rage is the most important

840
00:56:35.920 --> 00:56:38.039
thing in the game. Angry and
legitimately, I'm like, this is the

841
00:56:38.119 --> 00:56:43.639
most important thing. And even tell
like even telling people that some of them

842
00:56:43.679 --> 00:56:45.079
still don't get it, and they're
like, oh, man, no,

843
00:56:45.199 --> 00:56:47.559
I get it now, like after
the second round when they're passed and everyone

844
00:56:47.599 --> 00:56:51.360
else still has like three or four
more turns because they don't have enough rage,

845
00:56:51.519 --> 00:56:53.480
Like, oh, calm the whole
time. Yeah it was man,

846
00:56:53.559 --> 00:57:00.199
this is this isn't the Zen Buddhist
Apocalypse. Okay, so you know,

847
00:57:00.559 --> 00:57:02.559
hacking games will be one episode.
The other one will be poor game mashups,

848
00:57:02.599 --> 00:57:07.280
and so to Kaido blood rage mashup. Taking a casual, fun walk

849
00:57:07.440 --> 00:57:13.679
through rag Rock that, honestly,
I think I'll just stop and do a

850
00:57:13.800 --> 00:57:19.000
watercolor painting of the earth splitting open
and hell fire bursting out. Let me

851
00:57:19.079 --> 00:57:23.239
just get one gold coin. Let
me just luxuriate in the hot springs while

852
00:57:23.280 --> 00:57:28.519
the Horde of animated elemental wolves tear
a village asunder. This is great,

853
00:57:30.280 --> 00:57:34.719
Honestly, I want to I want
that so bad. Now give me blood

854
00:57:34.800 --> 00:57:39.719
Kido whole rage. Blood Kido is
so stupid that I love it. She

855
00:57:39.840 --> 00:57:43.920
had right, it's really make any
sense. It doesn't make any sense.

856
00:57:44.000 --> 00:57:49.599
It's really dumb. Oh helly,
anybody welcome back to or play through a

857
00:57:49.679 --> 00:57:52.719
blood Kido? Like, yeah,
it just sounds like a Dark Souls rip

858
00:57:52.760 --> 00:57:58.440
off, like one of those like
setire like blood blood Kido. No,

859
00:57:58.760 --> 00:58:01.960
you you're you're a You're an ninja
and your wife has been fridged and you

860
00:58:02.079 --> 00:58:06.400
need to go to hell. But
occasionally you also do watercolor painting. It

861
00:58:07.280 --> 00:58:10.079
does, so it does sound like
a bad It sounds like Sechiro but like

862
00:58:10.280 --> 00:58:16.119
not good. Just mhmm. Yeah, all right, so blood kind of

863
00:58:16.239 --> 00:58:20.119
That's how I'm ending my episode.
That's that's how I've been my portion of

864
00:58:20.159 --> 00:58:22.239
this. Yeah, the teach is
really easy though. So I'm gonna talk

865
00:58:22.239 --> 00:58:29.199
about my last game. Um uh
so I'm gonna talk about my favorite game

866
00:58:29.239 --> 00:58:34.039
of all time. That's not Cosmic
Together. It's not a board game.

867
00:58:34.360 --> 00:58:39.199
Oh, it's not a video game. It's without qualification. This is my

868
00:58:39.639 --> 00:58:46.360
favorite game of all time. Okay, regardless of quality. It's a role

869
00:58:46.519 --> 00:58:52.400
playing game. It's a indie role
playing game. Is a vampire huh is

870
00:58:52.440 --> 00:58:58.239
a vampire the mess right? Oh
you know it's funny. I almost talked

871
00:58:58.280 --> 00:59:05.320
about vampire uh specifically, But I
have beautiful college memories of playing and running

872
00:59:05.360 --> 00:59:08.119
lots and lots and lots of Vampire
because when I stopped playing D twenty for

873
00:59:08.199 --> 00:59:13.119
a while, I was floating around
in other systems. Shocker that I became

874
00:59:13.119 --> 00:59:15.639
a designer because I was. I
was driven by curiosity. So I was

875
00:59:15.679 --> 00:59:19.239
playing call Cthulhu and being like,
oh, d persentile, your HP never

876
00:59:19.320 --> 00:59:22.920
goes up. That's I want to
write a whole thing about that, specifically

877
00:59:22.960 --> 00:59:25.360
about these things I learned along the
way. But there was a single watership

878
00:59:25.480 --> 00:59:30.280
moment in my role play career as
a designers, as a runner of things,

879
00:59:30.719 --> 00:59:35.320
where the skui's split open and it's
before and after, and that's Fiasco.

880
00:59:35.559 --> 00:59:39.639
Fiasco is my favorite game all time, of any kind. I thought

881
00:59:39.639 --> 00:59:44.880
about putting video games on this list. We haven't talked about video games yet,

882
00:59:44.920 --> 00:59:47.039
so I decided to like Sneak Up
because I am a board game designer,

883
00:59:47.440 --> 00:59:52.920
but I am an absolute passionate designer
of role playing games. It's my

884
00:59:52.039 --> 00:59:55.480
favorite thing in the world because it
combines so many of my favorite elements of

885
00:59:55.679 --> 01:00:01.880
storytelling, of immersion, of emotional
connection with character. It's the reason why

886
01:00:01.880 --> 01:00:07.280
I'm a writer. It's the reason
why I took and then taught screenwriting for

887
01:00:07.440 --> 01:00:12.880
three years. The writer's room is
a is a space that I love because

888
01:00:13.000 --> 01:00:16.079
of how open it is and how
aggressively creative it is, and how um

889
01:00:16.599 --> 01:00:21.760
you're you're you're you're killing your babies, you're striking things down, you're being

890
01:00:21.760 --> 01:00:27.079
a craftsman of story. And I'm
obsessed with this idea. And Fiasco took

891
01:00:27.079 --> 01:00:30.559
all these things that I was already
thinking about and doing unintentionally, and then

892
01:00:30.679 --> 01:00:34.559
said, Okay, you know how
you've complained that ninety five percent of most

893
01:00:34.679 --> 01:00:38.159
role playing games like you don't need
them. You're right, here's the five

894
01:00:38.239 --> 01:00:42.400
that is. And then it had
systems and then reworked it in a way

895
01:00:42.519 --> 01:00:45.000
that I was like, Wow,
this is better than seventy percent of the

896
01:00:45.079 --> 01:00:50.079
writing courses I've taken in my in
my um in my education, in my

897
01:00:50.159 --> 01:00:54.199
higher education. For those of you
who haven't played Fiasco, essentially it is

898
01:00:54.280 --> 01:01:00.079
a one shot creator of a Coen
Brothers movie. So you've seen Big Lebowski,

899
01:01:00.159 --> 01:01:07.519
if you've seen Fargo. They are
stupid if not ambitious. People being

900
01:01:07.599 --> 01:01:10.079
driven together, and imagine a bunch
of rubber bands being twisted in the middle,

901
01:01:10.360 --> 01:01:14.039
and then you let them go,
and let's act one and act two.

902
01:01:14.559 --> 01:01:20.840
That everything goes and people are either
very successful or absolute failures. They're

903
01:01:20.880 --> 01:01:22.719
in jail or in they're a run, or they're dead. And things happen

904
01:01:22.840 --> 01:01:28.559
as a result of your choices.
And because you have these cards, that's

905
01:01:28.599 --> 01:01:31.480
it. You write down cards,
and they're they're narratively charged. Okay,

906
01:01:31.760 --> 01:01:36.280
two people share the same business.
We both work in same gas station.

907
01:01:36.400 --> 01:01:38.800
But over here, I know where
my uncle keeps his gun. Okay,

908
01:01:38.880 --> 01:01:42.960
and then what is your need?
Oh you're your ex girlfriend who thinks you're

909
01:01:43.000 --> 01:01:47.480
a loser. For me. The
reason why fiasco is so good and why

910
01:01:47.639 --> 01:01:52.599
it produces incredible experiences as the table, it's because I'm already falling over myself

911
01:01:52.760 --> 01:01:57.079
trying to explain how these things connect
to how to complicate them. And it

912
01:01:57.199 --> 01:02:00.679
says there is no gm, nobody
is more important of their play, and

913
01:02:00.800 --> 01:02:05.119
so everyone is donated in the middle. I'm big, I'm loud, I'm

914
01:02:05.199 --> 01:02:10.079
curious. So this is an environment
made for me. However, the first

915
01:02:10.119 --> 01:02:14.920
time this is I'm excited for this
because Fiasco is in my top five games

916
01:02:14.960 --> 01:02:16.840
of all time, like gorpgs and
Yeah yeah, yeah, so it's my

917
01:02:17.079 --> 01:02:22.559
criticisms of it are are for basically
the times in which the other people who

918
01:02:22.639 --> 01:02:27.679
play it, when people like me
or not in the room, if you

919
01:02:27.719 --> 01:02:30.320
pick up the game by yourself and
you try and play it. I was

920
01:02:30.360 --> 01:02:35.119
at the first Shut Up and Sit
Down convention where I was helping run the

921
01:02:35.159 --> 01:02:37.440
mega games, and I ran into
the shut Up and Set Sit Down Guys

922
01:02:37.760 --> 01:02:44.519
with Quinn and U and Matt,
and it was in the opening kind of

923
01:02:44.599 --> 01:02:46.800
volunteer get to know you mixer,
and I was talking about my favorite games

924
01:02:46.800 --> 01:02:52.760
and I brought Fiasco and I said
it is impossible to not have a good

925
01:02:52.840 --> 01:02:55.719
time playing Fiasco, and I meant
it, and literally everyone that around the

926
01:02:55.760 --> 01:02:59.480
table said, I've had a bad
experience playing Fiasco. I've had an experience

927
01:02:59.480 --> 01:03:02.760
Fiasco, and both Jennif of Sound
guys that I've had lots of experiences.

928
01:03:02.800 --> 01:03:07.280
I'm like wow, And that opened
the mind and I realized, Okay,

929
01:03:07.480 --> 01:03:10.840
so if there's not somebody who's big
and loud, who's taken three years of

930
01:03:10.920 --> 01:03:15.480
kreen writing, who's been obsessed with
stories his entire life. If you just

931
01:03:15.559 --> 01:03:17.599
sit there and look at cards,
the book itself doesn't do a great job

932
01:03:17.639 --> 01:03:22.840
of teaching you how to play.
It says, create a scene, Well

933
01:03:22.880 --> 01:03:25.239
what is that? Well, I'm
comfortable in that environment. I say,

934
01:03:25.280 --> 01:03:30.000
okay, well we need sensory detail, we need establish why we're here,

935
01:03:30.119 --> 01:03:32.000
we need to paint a picture with
our words. But if you don't know

936
01:03:32.039 --> 01:03:37.199
how to do that, if you've
either only played Dungeon, Fungeon, oh

937
01:03:37.400 --> 01:03:45.239
almost said it, Fungen Magons or
other things fungon Magons, or never played

938
01:03:45.280 --> 01:03:51.519
a role playing game before, the
idea of creating the snowball effect, which

939
01:03:51.599 --> 01:03:57.159
to me is implied, is not
an implication for many people. You then,

940
01:03:57.519 --> 01:04:00.840
or it's just these weak, disconnected
scenes all play where you're like,

941
01:04:00.840 --> 01:04:02.880
I'll have to pretend to be a
person now. People aren't thinking about what

942
01:04:02.960 --> 01:04:08.440
they want, they're not thinking what
they drive there. Fiasco is this this

943
01:04:08.800 --> 01:04:15.800
absolute magnificent swipe of design, but
you have to put yourself into it.

944
01:04:15.920 --> 01:04:18.559
It doesn't actually teach you how to
play. And this is what's driven a

945
01:04:18.639 --> 01:04:23.320
lot of my current thoughts about Okay, how am I going to design my

946
01:04:23.440 --> 01:04:26.480
RPGs? They need to teach you
how to play. I need to be

947
01:04:26.519 --> 01:04:28.360
able to hand this off. I
need to be able to walk out of

948
01:04:28.360 --> 01:04:31.519
the room and understand that I've done
a job communicating my idea as well.

949
01:04:33.000 --> 01:04:36.400
And it's interesting you say that.
So when we made After the Rain,

950
01:04:38.000 --> 01:04:43.440
one of the reasons there is chapters
right and perhaps where to acquire it,

951
01:04:43.800 --> 01:04:46.119
so you could acquire it over an
I'm indie press revolution made by a good

952
01:04:46.159 --> 01:04:49.239
pause over a testentury. But no, seriously so because Fiasco was one of

953
01:04:49.280 --> 01:04:56.440
the games that inspired that inspired that
system, and I think it I'm not

954
01:04:56.480 --> 01:04:59.159
going to tell you or I'll tell
our audience. I'll tell you a later,

955
01:04:59.320 --> 01:05:01.760
Graham. But there's there's a reference
to I figure ie if I put

956
01:05:01.760 --> 01:05:05.400
a reference to Jason morning Star,
or if a reference to one of the

957
01:05:05.519 --> 01:05:11.800
characters in Will Wheaton's tabletop run of
Fiasco into the game as a sort of

958
01:05:11.920 --> 01:05:15.039
nod, a very subtle homage to
the game that had inspired that system.

959
01:05:15.400 --> 01:05:19.079
But there's a reason that if you
read the rules set for After the Range,

960
01:05:19.119 --> 01:05:23.440
there are much clearer rules on how
to establish and run a scene and

961
01:05:23.599 --> 01:05:28.039
what that looks like and how a
campaign could be structured. Because I missed

962
01:05:28.079 --> 01:05:31.920
that in Fiasco, I had the
same thing. I had the same I

963
01:05:31.960 --> 01:05:34.840
don't I had the same issue.
Or it's like, this is tough to

964
01:05:35.000 --> 01:05:39.840
play with people who don't fully know, or fully appreciate, or fully understand.

965
01:05:41.000 --> 01:05:45.159
I think it's an interesting counterpoint to
this blood rage point, right.

966
01:05:45.360 --> 01:05:48.519
I think it's very similar. For
those of you on YouTube, perhaps you've

967
01:05:48.599 --> 01:05:53.960
noticed that there is a bug sushi
chef behind me, which I made for

968
01:05:54.079 --> 01:05:57.599
our good friend Ryan Cohn. Shout
out. He is designed a game called

969
01:05:57.880 --> 01:06:01.920
The Dish where you play as bugs
who are in a cookie competition. It's

970
01:06:01.920 --> 01:06:06.239
amazing. Um. I hope to
play task it again soon. His story

971
01:06:06.360 --> 01:06:11.840
of playing Fiasco is that they played
it, muddled through it, and then

972
01:06:11.880 --> 01:06:17.480
immediately played it again, which is
not uncommon in like board games if you

973
01:06:17.599 --> 01:06:20.320
have like a really dedicated group,
or if the game is short enough,

974
01:06:20.400 --> 01:06:25.400
you know you're like okay, back
to back, but role playing games,

975
01:06:25.440 --> 01:06:30.280
particularly like one shot whatever's like the
process of playing it. All of a

976
01:06:30.280 --> 01:06:31.960
sudden they realized it, and for
them it was a lightning bault in the

977
01:06:32.000 --> 01:06:34.800
brain moment. And then the immediate
played it again, which I don't think

978
01:06:35.239 --> 01:06:41.400
they'd ever done before. Or since, and so the idea of creating that

979
01:06:41.480 --> 01:06:44.320
space that teaches you how to play, that's your blood rage, that's your

980
01:06:44.639 --> 01:06:46.840
You're gonna have a bad time and
you're gonna get spiked into the center of

981
01:06:46.880 --> 01:06:54.880
the earth, but in an unsatisfying
narrative way, not mechanically. M's it's

982
01:06:54.920 --> 01:06:59.480
pretty interesting. Yeah, you know, I think we should talk I mean,

983
01:06:59.519 --> 01:07:04.000
we should truly talk about like our
full the full list of the RPGs

984
01:07:04.079 --> 01:07:06.960
and the systems that we like and
don't like, about a bunch of our

985
01:07:06.960 --> 01:07:10.760
favorite RPGs. I think that should
be an episode in and of itself,

986
01:07:11.000 --> 01:07:14.400
because now I'm thinking, man,
there's some cool some cool things that I

987
01:07:14.480 --> 01:07:15.679
like and some cool things that I
really want to talk about. I think

988
01:07:15.719 --> 01:07:18.719
that's a great that's a great note
to end on, and also shout out

989
01:07:18.719 --> 01:07:23.480
to Ryan, because Ryan Dawson,
I love that, dude. I have

990
01:07:23.519 --> 01:07:26.199
a weird question for you, though, Graham, before we end the show

991
01:07:26.239 --> 01:07:28.920
today, I also have a weird
question. But you know what you give

992
01:07:28.960 --> 01:07:30.800
me your give your a weird question. I like. I like this.

993
01:07:30.920 --> 01:07:32.840
This is usually because I'm the one
the weird questions. But when we do

994
01:07:32.960 --> 01:07:35.079
that, guys, please make sure
if you haven't yet, like, share,

995
01:07:35.119 --> 01:07:38.360
comment, subscribe to all the fun
stuff if you're on YouTube or any

996
01:07:38.360 --> 01:07:41.159
of those other social media platforms.
If you enjoyed this, you can of

997
01:07:41.239 --> 01:07:44.760
course subscribe to any of our podcasts
where an Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Pandora.

998
01:07:44.840 --> 01:07:47.119
We are also on Geo Chevan,
which I'm contractually obligated to let you

999
01:07:47.159 --> 01:07:50.440
know, otherwise Briley will feel the
disturbance in the force. That's his favorite.

1000
01:07:50.480 --> 01:07:54.519
I don't know why he loves Joe
Chevan so much and he's just like

1001
01:07:54.599 --> 01:07:56.719
he plugs it all the time.
I don't know why, but it's just

1002
01:07:56.960 --> 01:08:02.519
it's become of the world famous fashion
line right apparently also a prevadorive podcast again,

1003
01:08:02.760 --> 01:08:04.800
Graham already alluded to it. But
if you haven't gotten yourself a copy

1004
01:08:04.840 --> 01:08:08.480
back for The Rain are good friends
over and you Press Revolution have those.

1005
01:08:09.280 --> 01:08:13.599
A huge shout out thank you to
everybody who backed a Fear Within. We

1006
01:08:13.719 --> 01:08:17.840
are actually nearing print, which is
really cool. Editing is done. Layout

1007
01:08:17.960 --> 01:08:21.399
is done, which means that if
you back to sun Kickstarter you will be

1008
01:08:21.479 --> 01:08:26.119
getting your physical copies soon and then
after that you can of course get a

1009
01:08:26.159 --> 01:08:30.239
physical copy of it over at Destined
Doors dot org so and everyone who backed

1010
01:08:30.239 --> 01:08:32.640
to Electronic we already got their copies. So shout out to you guys.

1011
01:08:32.720 --> 01:08:35.479
We love you all. Thanks everybody
that worked on the production team for that.

1012
01:08:35.880 --> 01:08:41.199
And all right, Graham gread question
so on the subject of RPGs,

1013
01:08:41.319 --> 01:08:45.039
And of course it's summer. That's
it's the summer is coming luxuriating some of

1014
01:08:45.159 --> 01:08:48.920
us. The sun is out and
some of us have our guns out.

1015
01:08:49.000 --> 01:08:55.159
It's true. I'm wearing my jaw's
tank top. So I'm gonna ask you,

1016
01:08:56.000 --> 01:08:58.439
Kyle out yeah, and you need
to answer, and you need to

1017
01:08:58.439 --> 01:09:02.600
answer seriously. Okay, you're gonna
gonna pull in tune. When are we

1018
01:09:02.680 --> 01:09:06.119
gonna play Oberon? What are we
gonna play Oberon? What are we gonna

1019
01:09:06.159 --> 01:09:11.159
play? When are we gonna play
Oberon? I will get is your favorite

1020
01:09:11.199 --> 01:09:14.560
setting of all time? When are
we gonna play? Over? Ebron is

1021
01:09:14.560 --> 01:09:16.159
my favorite setting? Well time.
Obron's my favorite fairy king of all time.

1022
01:09:16.159 --> 01:09:18.439
Now I'm kidding, um, where
are we gonna w When are we

1023
01:09:18.520 --> 01:09:23.479
gonna have a midsummer Night's dream?
Kyle? Oh, midsummer Night's dreaming Ebron

1024
01:09:23.520 --> 01:09:26.840
with war Forbes sounds amazing. Um, My guess is it's gonna be when

1025
01:09:26.920 --> 01:09:29.600
we link up over the summer.
Um. I know we had talked about

1026
01:09:29.680 --> 01:09:32.880
doing a game get together with all
of us, the boys, the squad

1027
01:09:33.479 --> 01:09:36.920
um and and Riley and Isaac and
Jeremy and the you know, the people

1028
01:09:36.960 --> 01:09:41.039
that we love. But it's gonna
be then. That's that's my plan.

1029
01:09:41.199 --> 01:09:45.000
I have my This is gonna be
the summer of going and doing cool things.

1030
01:09:45.520 --> 01:09:47.640
Um. It's been a really stressful
year for a lot of us over

1031
01:09:47.720 --> 01:09:54.119
here destin Dorks, myself included in
that number, and I have decided unilaterally

1032
01:09:54.640 --> 01:09:57.520
that this is going to be.
But I have decided to do no matter

1033
01:09:57.560 --> 01:09:59.399
what happens, the summer is gonna
be the summer of just going and doing

1034
01:09:59.399 --> 01:10:01.159
the cool stuff I want to do. And so we're gonna We're gonna play

1035
01:10:01.159 --> 01:10:05.560
some Ebron. I'm gonna bring some
Vampire books because I've never played the Vampire

1036
01:10:05.640 --> 01:10:12.760
games and I'm looking forward to run
I play. I ran it last year

1037
01:10:13.439 --> 01:10:18.720
for cast gamers at the good old
fashioned Save against Fear Fabulous because we more

1038
01:10:18.800 --> 01:10:24.520
or less found ourselves in the top
level suite. So I ran a six

1039
01:10:24.600 --> 01:10:30.279
player game of Vampire the Masquerade at
where it was like huge fireplace and chandelier

1040
01:10:30.479 --> 01:10:34.159
and last everyone everyone felt like they
were aristocratic immortals on top of the world.

1041
01:10:34.399 --> 01:10:40.159
It was fabulous. But that is
not my weird question. My weird

1042
01:10:40.239 --> 01:10:45.279
question is, Kyle, since we
are now DJs and dorks, we are

1043
01:10:45.479 --> 01:10:50.159
upping our production values. We have
both an intro hand an outro. Very

1044
01:10:50.199 --> 01:10:55.840
exciting for you to hear the soulful
as as you consider all the wonderful things

1045
01:10:55.880 --> 01:10:58.680
we said. You can just like
listen to that fade out of the outro.

1046
01:10:59.319 --> 01:11:03.640
The other thing we need in order
to increase our production values is an

1047
01:11:03.800 --> 01:11:11.560
absolutely meaningless catch phrase, Kyle,
what do you think the worst the worst

1048
01:11:11.720 --> 01:11:15.720
possible catch phrase you can come up
with is because we're gonna use it and

1049
01:11:15.840 --> 01:11:18.439
we're gonna do it as our sign
off. So what do we already have

1050
01:11:18.560 --> 01:11:23.319
a meaning full catch phrase and that
we're shaped by you? Um? Because

1051
01:11:23.840 --> 01:11:27.239
dusty Door start off as a mark
madness bracket. That's pretty meaningless. Ah,

1052
01:11:29.319 --> 01:11:34.359
Just that's the sound of the um. That's the most of it.

1053
01:11:34.800 --> 01:11:39.279
All I could think about is like
dear of those old like nineteen thirties radio

1054
01:11:39.319 --> 01:11:43.920
shows like Wabbabooie or something like dumb. I'm talking about. Yeah, that's

1055
01:11:43.920 --> 01:11:45.960
it's a dumb moody too, sort
of like Zippity zips out or something like

1056
01:11:46.079 --> 01:11:53.720
that. So what do you stick
it with? Zip zip out? Yeah,

1057
01:11:53.720 --> 01:11:58.640
that's it my meaningless hope. Zipity
zapps out day. It's fine,

1058
01:11:58.840 --> 01:12:02.800
okay, as if zapp sat day
a Zippity's app saut day. Everybody great,

1059
01:12:02.840 --> 01:12:05.840
We're gonna We're gonna, We're gonna
finish. We're gonna finish it after

1060
01:12:06.000 --> 01:12:10.760
your weird question. We're gonna fish
with our catch phrases. I think the

1061
01:12:10.880 --> 01:12:14.680
worst catch phrase of all time might
be stay Boggy my Friends. But well,

1062
01:12:14.720 --> 01:12:16.079
no, that's so much better.
Can we do that one? I

1063
01:12:16.159 --> 01:12:19.079
thought that was I don't even want
to do my weird question, bar,

1064
01:12:19.119 --> 01:12:23.640
I was gonna end episode like stay
Boggy my Friends. It's like the best

1065
01:12:23.680 --> 01:12:26.239
eyes man, but he's like covered
in vines. It's a small thing.

1066
01:12:27.159 --> 01:12:30.720
Oh that's pretty good. That's pretty
good. That's pretty good. Um uh

1067
01:12:30.960 --> 01:12:33.039
no, you know, I'm gonna
say my weird question for next time.

1068
01:12:33.439 --> 01:12:36.279
Um. I think I think we
end with stay Boggy my Friends. I

1069
01:12:36.359 --> 01:12:41.920
think I think you got you're gonna
say years. I think thank you everybody,

1070
01:12:42.239 --> 01:12:44.439
Thank you, everybody so much for
listening to desk works. You guys

1071
01:12:44.439 --> 01:12:45.479
have all been awesome. I've been
Kyle a lot, joined of course,

1072
01:12:45.560 --> 01:12:56.760
by the inimitable Ramgans and Stay Boggy
my friends, Z out, Dad, everybody,