1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,760 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:29,120 Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,840 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:49,759 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and 10 00:00:49,799 --> 00:00:55,280 I'm Bill Thomas. We're back continuing our coverage of crime con with our after 11 00:00:55,399 --> 00:00:59,799 Action Report, and we certainly hope you enjoyed our first episode in which we 12 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:03,079 talked about just about anything and everything related to crime. God, We're going 13 00:01:03,119 --> 00:01:06,519 to try to be a little more focused by the judging by the number of 14 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:08,840 people who came and said hello to us, who said that they listened to 15 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:12,680 the podcast. I think there's probably people out there who do enjoy our chaos. 16 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:17,439 I don't think of as as chaotic. That is true about just the 17 00:01:17,719 --> 00:01:23,840 wonderful mix of thoughtful true crime conversation. Here we go, thoughtful true crime 18 00:01:23,879 --> 00:01:27,920 conversation. Indeed, I really was just and I don't think that we said 19 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:30,680 it enough last episode, or at least I didn't say it well enough last 20 00:01:30,719 --> 00:01:34,560 episode. Thank you to everybody who showed up and who talked to us, 21 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:40,640 who listens to us already and wanted to get selfies or wanted to just say 22 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:45,400 hello. It means so much, And it's still a little surreal to me 23 00:01:47,159 --> 00:01:51,799 the people actually recogniz It's a little weird that having people recognize me or know 24 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,840 my voice or both. And they wanted your autograph, which I know is 25 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:59,239 something you were a little blown away by. That's still a little weird to 26 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:01,760 me. Yeah. I remember at one point I was over at the is 27 00:02:01,799 --> 00:02:05,560 at one of the water filling stations. It was getting a cup of water. 28 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:09,199 Someone I thought maybe it was someone I knew, but I guess it 29 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:13,039 wasn't. It was just a random fan. They came up. They were 30 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:15,199 like, don't you hate it when you can't even go get a sip of 31 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:19,360 water without a fan bothering you. And it was somebody I had never met 32 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:23,479 before. But it's weird because I'm sitting here going Most of the people who 33 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:25,960 see me on a day to day basis, I e. My students find 34 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:31,199 me vastly underwhelming and just can't wait to get away from me. I find 35 00:02:31,199 --> 00:02:34,759 it a little weird that there were people who actually want to, like, 36 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,319 say hello, get a selfie, get an autograph. It's all overwhelming. 37 00:02:38,439 --> 00:02:43,520 Why not? Absolutely, I think it's good for you, And definitely Bill. 38 00:02:43,599 --> 00:02:46,199 In the times that you were not at the booth because you were off 39 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:52,719 zipping or doing what else, doing whatever else it was for doing, they 40 00:02:52,759 --> 00:02:54,319 sent me a schedule and they said you have to be here and here, 41 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:59,159 so I did. The number of times that people came up to the booth 42 00:02:59,199 --> 00:03:02,199 and were very, very concerned that you were not there. It was like 43 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:07,439 there were two women who came up and I'm sure that they I'm sure that 44 00:03:07,479 --> 00:03:09,800 they just really wanted their picture with you, but they were like, when 45 00:03:09,879 --> 00:03:13,000 is Bill going to be back? And I said pretty soon. They were 46 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:15,319 like, we really want to see Bill, And I was like, well 47 00:03:16,319 --> 00:03:21,159 you, and I think I must have looked a little taken aback because they 48 00:03:21,159 --> 00:03:23,439 were like, we really want our pictures with Bill, and I was like, 49 00:03:23,719 --> 00:03:25,479 we'll be back, and one of them was like, we'd love to 50 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:30,400 meet you too, but is Bill going to be back? Yes, okay, 51 00:03:30,479 --> 00:03:36,520 yes, Bill will be back, I promise, oh man. Saturday 52 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:38,560 really ends up being the biggest day at Crime Con, and I'd say that 53 00:03:38,599 --> 00:03:43,400 it was the biggest in terms of attendance. It was the only day where 54 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:51,199 I'd felt crowded. It was pretty packed both with events and fantastic discussion and 55 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:53,919 a ton of people. There were a lot of people there. My big 56 00:03:53,960 --> 00:04:00,599 thing for Saturday was definitely Doctor Burgess's panel. Like I mentioned last episode of 57 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:03,080 Salty, last episode about Paul Hols, I'm gonna be Salty, this episode 58 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:09,520 about what happened with doctor Burgess's book signing. Do you remember, oh I 59 00:04:09,599 --> 00:04:14,759 did? Please tell the story though I brought from Virginia because I am a 60 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:20,600 total nerd. The very large and Heavy crime classification manual that doctor Burgess wrote 61 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:25,879 with John Douglas. It's a tome, as they would say it is. 62 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:29,879 She wrote it with John Douglas and several other of the good folks at the 63 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:34,199 profiling Unit in Quantaco, and I brought it with me because I really wanted 64 00:04:34,199 --> 00:04:39,279 her to sign it. And so after her panel, I popped back to 65 00:04:39,319 --> 00:04:43,360 the booth, grabbed the crime classification manual, and Hippie hopped my way over 66 00:04:43,399 --> 00:04:46,959 to her book signing and I got in right at the end of the line, 67 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:48,759 and I was like, okay, Like I wasn't at the front of 68 00:04:48,759 --> 00:04:51,120 the line, I wasn't in the middle, but at least I'm here. 69 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:55,759 And a couple of minutes later, after another say, ten to fifteen people 70 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:58,560 showed up, they shut the line right behind those fifteen people. I was 71 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:00,759 like, Okay, this is going to take a while, but good, 72 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:03,639 I'm here. And it did take a while to go through. And it's 73 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:10,040 mainly because instead of just having people sign the books, it's signed the book. 74 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:13,480 Okay, post for selfie and I'll post for another one. Yeah, 75 00:05:13,519 --> 00:05:15,560 And I feel like that is a problem if you want to get a number 76 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:20,639 of people through the line. I waited impatiently, but I waited, and 77 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:25,519 so I was in line for an hour, and right around the hour mark, 78 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:27,920 those of us who are at the back of the line are chatting with 79 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:30,519 each other and talking about various other things, and right around the hour mark, 80 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:34,720 someone came out and said, we're sorry, doctor Burgess has to be 81 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:38,920 somewhere else, like she had an interview that she got double booked for, 82 00:05:39,319 --> 00:05:42,079 and they were like, so we can only let this first row of people 83 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:46,480 go in, and we were like four rows of people away from doctor Burgess 84 00:05:46,519 --> 00:05:49,439 and so they were like, we're sorry, but that's it. She looked 85 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:53,959 really taken aback by it, and she was like, noah, I'll wait. 86 00:05:54,319 --> 00:05:57,120 She was like, I want to sign everybody's book, like they're all 87 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:00,120 waiting for me, standing in line to pay their work and ask for your 88 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,279 autograph. Yeah, and she was like no, I want to do it. 89 00:06:03,319 --> 00:06:05,319 And then she was like is there and they were like, no, 90 00:06:05,399 --> 00:06:09,279 you have to be at this other interview. You're already scheduled. And yeah. 91 00:06:09,319 --> 00:06:12,199 She said, is there another way? Is there another time when I 92 00:06:12,199 --> 00:06:15,360 can come back and do this, because I really want they're waiting for me, 93 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:18,079 and they were like, sorry, that's just not possible. So I 94 00:06:18,199 --> 00:06:21,439 was really pretty ticked off about it. And if I had been thinking properly, 95 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:27,279 I probably could have flashed my podcast or badge and given her the stack 96 00:06:27,319 --> 00:06:30,680 of podcast swag from us that I had for her. If I'd been thinking 97 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:32,079 about it, I would have done it. I was so ticked off that 98 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:35,360 they shut the line and I had to go all the way back to Virginia 99 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:41,759 with my very heavy copy of crime Classification Manual that I did not get signed 100 00:06:41,759 --> 00:06:45,680 by doctor Burgess, but not in her because she couldn't help it. And 101 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:49,079 I can also think there have to be ways to speed up those lines. 102 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:54,560 For example, if hundreds of people are going to wait in line, then 103 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:59,759 they need to have people hand like in this example, hand and Burgess the 104 00:06:59,759 --> 00:07:02,040 book, book or whatever they want to have her sign, and they need 105 00:07:02,079 --> 00:07:08,360 to hand their phone to somebody else who would click a selfie for them. 106 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:14,519 You could cut the time required for each interaction in half. And clearly wants 107 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:17,680 to say hello to her fans. She wants to greet as many people as 108 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:23,399 possible, sign books or whatever it is that she's being asked to sign and 109 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:27,199 take pictures. But you've got to figure out a way to build it enough 110 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:30,959 time so that everyone in the room who's there, we're not talking about late 111 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:35,040 comers here, they have the ability to go up, say hi, and 112 00:07:35,079 --> 00:07:39,160 spend a moment or two with her and get their picture taken and get their 113 00:07:39,199 --> 00:07:42,879 autograph or whatever it is they're seeking. There's got to be a way to 114 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,720 do it faster. And like a lot of things, I actually find myself 115 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:51,720 studying different aspects of life and thinking, is there the way we could do 116 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:58,199 this better, faster, more efficiently. And I think for some cases like 117 00:07:58,279 --> 00:08:01,720 this, when you've got hundreds of people waiting, it may have to be 118 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:05,160 I'm sorry, you can't do a selfie, right, you can do a 119 00:08:05,199 --> 00:08:09,160 signature or hand you can, yeah, signature or selfie, but not both. 120 00:08:09,279 --> 00:08:13,920 You can hand her something or whatever. But it really would have helped 121 00:08:13,079 --> 00:08:18,800 because the line was moving so slowly because of here's a book, she's signing 122 00:08:18,839 --> 00:08:20,240 it, talking to people. Okay, now come around the table, do 123 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:24,040 your photo. Oh that photo didn't work, Let's do another one. Okay, 124 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:26,759 move on, you know, I just sign it. I think we 125 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:30,439 could combine those two things. While she's signing the book, she can look 126 00:08:30,519 --> 00:08:33,399 up and the person sneaks around behind her. They both look up a smile, 127 00:08:33,639 --> 00:08:37,279 and you do both things at the same time. Yeah, just an 128 00:08:37,279 --> 00:08:41,559 idea. So that was I'd say probably my greatest disappointment of Crime Con was 129 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:46,519 that I did not get a chance to see doctor Ann and let her know 130 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:50,600 thank you for being on the podcast. We appreciate it, and can you 131 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:54,120 please sign this book. I was really upset about it, I know. 132 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:58,159 And then you didn't see her at any other point over the weekend. No, 133 00:08:58,519 --> 00:09:03,559 unfortunate. Like I was talking to I was talking to one of our 134 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:07,279 fans, I think it was Rachelle. Came up to the table later and 135 00:09:07,919 --> 00:09:11,039 she said she'd stopped by earlier and she hadn't seen me, And I said, 136 00:09:11,039 --> 00:09:13,360 I was in doctor Burgess's line. And then I was like, but 137 00:09:13,399 --> 00:09:16,120 I got cut and I'm a little upset about that, and she goes, 138 00:09:16,279 --> 00:09:18,039 oh, I just saw her checking out at the checkout desk. I bet 139 00:09:18,039 --> 00:09:20,480 if you hurry you could probably get her. And I was like, oh, 140 00:09:20,519 --> 00:09:24,039 no, I'm not going to be able to And I wasn't. I 141 00:09:24,159 --> 00:09:28,480 was not going to dash off and away from one of our fans to go 142 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:33,799 chase after doctor Anne. That would not have been cool. Although at a 143 00:09:33,879 --> 00:09:43,080 different point you did chase after a well known television personality, am I correct? 144 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,799 Yes, And that was not on my own behalf. That was on 145 00:09:46,879 --> 00:09:50,159 behalf of a friend of mine. So one of my very good friends who 146 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:54,840 was not able to make it to Crime Con is a real life friend of 147 00:09:54,919 --> 00:09:58,919 Josh Mankowitz, and she had said to me, I can't make it, 148 00:09:58,399 --> 00:10:03,360 but I would I love it if you could shoot a little short video for 149 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:07,399 Josh where I don't know, maybe you guys say hi from crime Con or 150 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:11,519 professor undying love for me or something like that. Can you do that? 151 00:10:11,639 --> 00:10:16,480 And because she has had such a spectacularly awful couple of weeks, right, 152 00:10:16,759 --> 00:10:20,279 I was like, I absolutely want to make sure that I do this, 153 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:24,000 and so all day long I was looking for Josh Mankowitz. And you can 154 00:10:24,039 --> 00:10:28,759 tell where Josh Mekowitz and Paul Holes and Keith Morrison are at any given point 155 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:35,639 during crime Con because they have a line of women following them. I played 156 00:10:35,639 --> 00:10:39,080 a small part here because you did. Yes, don't look now, but 157 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:43,879 I think your man, Josh Mankowitz from Dateline NBC just went that away and 158 00:10:43,919 --> 00:10:48,360 you were like, I'll be right back. Yes, it was well spotted 159 00:10:48,399 --> 00:10:52,279 on your part because I wasn't paying close enough attention, and I pelted it 160 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:58,399 out after him and I yelped very unprofessionally Josh, and he turned around and 161 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:03,000 you could tell this is the face of a man who had been pursued by 162 00:11:03,039 --> 00:11:05,559 women wanting selfies all day long. Yeah, he was sick of it. 163 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:11,480 He was sick of it. Yes, So I said, I'm and I 164 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:13,879 named my friend. I'm not going to name her here, but I named 165 00:11:13,879 --> 00:11:16,600 her and I said I'm her friend. And he goes, oh, we 166 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:20,559 have to do the video. He was like, okay, cool, like 167 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:24,360 he knows he understands the assignment. But I'm telling you. As soon as 168 00:11:24,399 --> 00:11:28,440 I said, probably too loudly, hey gosh, there were five or six 169 00:11:28,919 --> 00:11:31,919 imcinity who turned around and they were making a beeline for Josh. At the 170 00:11:31,919 --> 00:11:35,919 same time I was I'm like, crap, I have thirty seconds to do 171 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:39,320 this, and so I just real quick, I'd like tamp down all my 172 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:43,240 nerves. I flipped the camera on. I was like, hey, it's 173 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:48,399 Kristen from Crime con look who I found. Turned it to Josh and he 174 00:11:48,519 --> 00:11:50,519 waved and said hello, and then I turned the camera back to me and 175 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:54,679 I said, love you so much, see you soon. And not even 176 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:58,240 five seconds after I closed that up, a woman shoved her camera at me 177 00:11:58,279 --> 00:12:00,919 and she goes take a picture of me with Josh, and I was like, 178 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:05,240 excuse you, I'm not even done talking to him yet. What is 179 00:12:05,279 --> 00:12:11,080 your damage? But as I recall, your mutual friend had some rough moments 180 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:16,480 recently and you were wanting to both of you were wanting to send her some 181 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:22,840 good wishes and that you were thinking of her. Because Josh seemed completely okay 182 00:12:22,919 --> 00:12:26,039 with saying hi to your mutual friend, and he even said, oh, 183 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:30,159 the video, Yeah, let's do the video, and it was a really 184 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:33,840 sweet thing to do. He even has a nickname at Crime Con. They 185 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:39,879 call him the Mayor of Crime Town because everybody knows the folks from Daylight NBC. 186 00:12:41,039 --> 00:12:45,159 They do so much true crime coverage. When someone like Josh makes their 187 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:50,600 way through, everybody's head turns because he's a very well known figure, especially 188 00:12:50,799 --> 00:12:54,240 in the true crime space. On Sunday morning, when you were getting prepared 189 00:12:54,279 --> 00:12:58,720 for your panel and I was hanging out with Mike Morpford and Jess Beton Corn 190 00:12:58,759 --> 00:13:03,919 were getting ready to open our respective booze, we were about ten minutes out 191 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:07,960 from the doors being open, and we started hearing all of this giggling and 192 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:15,159 carrying on, and then the doors fulling open and this whole gaggle of people 193 00:13:15,639 --> 00:13:20,919 get a running start and they're racing for the Dateline booth in the back of 194 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:24,399 the podcast row Oh only thing I could think of. Jess and Mike and 195 00:13:24,399 --> 00:13:28,919 I are like watching this, We're like, is Josh Makowitz actually back there 196 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:33,200 right now? And it was like, no, I think it was just 197 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:37,159 that people with there were bingo cards. There were those Mayor of Crime con 198 00:13:37,279 --> 00:13:39,639 buttons that I managed to score for my friend, but I had to beg 199 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:43,519 for it because they were technically out of buttons, but I had to beg 200 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:46,480 for it first, and I had to flash the podcaster badge. And then 201 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:50,679 there was a full size Josh Macowood stand up back there that people were taking 202 00:13:50,759 --> 00:13:54,559 photos with. I think people were headed for the Dateline booth, but there 203 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:56,799 was an actual run on the doors, and Mike, Jess and I were 204 00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:03,519 looking going, what in that? Wow? Really? Oh my god? 205 00:14:03,399 --> 00:14:09,440 Run amok? It really like the fandom. The amount of fandom around certain 206 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:13,919 people really is crazy, which is why, like I said, Paul Holes 207 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:18,320 allegedly apparently has to stay off property because otherwise people are going to book rap 208 00:14:18,399 --> 00:14:22,240 out of them. It is crazy. So yeah, Josh, I think 209 00:14:24,399 --> 00:14:26,960 this is totally my idea. Kevin can take it if he wants to if 210 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,480 you're listening, Kevin, you can definitely take this idea. I think that 211 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:35,000 next year there should be a runoff election for mayor of Crime Con. Is 212 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:39,799 it going to be Josh Mankowitz, Keith Morrison, Nancy Grace or Paul Holes. 213 00:14:39,879 --> 00:14:45,320 There needs to be a runoff election and a voting system and then not 214 00:14:45,399 --> 00:14:48,279 a coronation. What do you call it an inauguration? You never know. 215 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:52,879 Hey, if you've got Kevin's details, let me know. I will send 216 00:14:52,879 --> 00:14:58,080 that to him. Think it's a great idea. It's a good idea. 217 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:03,320 All this is going on while I'm in hair and makeup before my panel. 218 00:15:03,679 --> 00:15:07,120 Wait, did they actually put you in hair and makeup for real? No? 219 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:11,039 They they took care of the women. They looked at us guys, 220 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:16,960 and went kept right on going. They don't know that much to worked with 221 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:22,279 hair and makeup time for me. Oh my gosh. Yeah that so that? 222 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:24,000 Yeah, that run on the doors was right before you went on. 223 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:28,559 But before Sunday morning, we got to attend a really cool I was gonna 224 00:15:28,559 --> 00:15:31,960 say it was an exclusive gala, but there were about a thousand other people 225 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:37,120 in the room, so maybe not that exclusive. Which one are you referring 226 00:15:37,159 --> 00:15:41,679 to the Clue Aboards. Yeah, you got all dressed up, though, 227 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:46,679 and you looked fairs I did. I don't normally get dressed up. But 228 00:15:46,919 --> 00:15:50,639 as soon as you asked me earlier in the year, do you want to 229 00:15:50,639 --> 00:15:54,519 be my plus one for the Clue Awards? I missed it last year in 230 00:15:54,639 --> 00:15:58,320 Vegas because I was exhausted and over stimulated and I didn't want to bother. 231 00:15:58,639 --> 00:16:02,639 Yeah, So this year I was like, yes, absolutely, and I 232 00:16:02,679 --> 00:16:04,879 figured it's a good excuse to buy a dress. I do not get dressed 233 00:16:04,919 --> 00:16:11,440 up often because I don't like making a fuss over myself that way. Like 234 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:14,879 that was fine when I was in my twenties, but I'm forty two now 235 00:16:14,919 --> 00:16:18,879 and I don't feel like I need or want to do that. But I 236 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:22,240 made a point of going out to buy a nice dress. I bought a 237 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:25,279 pair of heels that I don't think I will ever be able to walk in 238 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:30,759 again satisfactorily, but they will. It was great. It was it was 239 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:34,799 fun. Now full disclosure, I'm a judge for Crime Con. They asked 240 00:16:34,799 --> 00:16:40,639 me a couple of years ago would I evaluate podcasts, So they send me 241 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:45,639 a dozen different podcasts. It can't be anything that we're affiliated with and obviously 242 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:51,039 you wouldn't judge your own work or anything like that, but they send you 243 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:55,000 a dozen different podcasts and you have to listen to them and you have to 244 00:16:55,480 --> 00:17:00,279 evaluate what you think of the content, and they give you specific criteria and 245 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:04,799 one of the things they're looking for is does this podcast treat victims and survivors 246 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:11,200 of serious crime respectfully? That's one of the criteria. And they ask about 247 00:17:11,519 --> 00:17:17,599 production values and the content itself, so you're evaluating them on a scale, 248 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:22,039 and then you also offer your thoughts about what you think of the podcast. 249 00:17:22,319 --> 00:17:26,160 They're all very good there. There was nothing that was bad and a lot 250 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:30,759 of them are actually well known podcasts, but there were new day there were 251 00:17:30,799 --> 00:17:33,000 new ones too. Yeah, and it's it's a lot of work, but 252 00:17:33,039 --> 00:17:37,960 it's something I like to do because I like to help crime con in any 253 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:41,720 way that I can as a result of being a judge. We were invited 254 00:17:41,759 --> 00:17:45,559 to the Clue Awards and it was a lot of It was a lot of 255 00:17:45,559 --> 00:17:49,519 fun. We ended up waiting in line to get into the Clue Awards with 256 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:56,000 Kathy Kleiner and her husband Scott, and they were absolutely magnificent, wonderful, 257 00:17:56,079 --> 00:18:00,039 sweet people, and so we got a blast just sitting there and talking with 258 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,279 them and hanging out. And the two of the bolt extremely funny, and 259 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:07,680 Scott's got this very dry sense of humor, and of course he's always joking 260 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:11,880 about he's Kathy's plus one because a look a lot of people, especially at 261 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:17,880 that place like crime Con, they know Kathy Kleiner Rubin from her story of 262 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:19,640 surviving Ted Bundy, and she had a brand new book that had just come 263 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:23,640 out, Kathy Kleiner A Light in the Dark Surviving More Than Ted Bundy, 264 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:27,880 which just was coming out at Crime Con. Yeah, and so they were 265 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:32,240 really fun to hang out with. But then when it got time to be 266 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:37,319 seated, we were seated elsewhere. We got up near the front because we're 267 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:41,839 VIPs. You're a VIP and I'm your ZIP plus one. And then something 268 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:45,519 else happened, which really threw me off. They had reached out to me 269 00:18:47,079 --> 00:18:52,880 a week or so before Crime Con and said that our friend Catherine Miles' book 270 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:57,079 Trailed, which is about the Shenandoah murders of Julie Williamson. Lolly Wyan's, 271 00:18:57,599 --> 00:19:03,319 was up for Best Book of the Year. Now, Kate's book is amazing 272 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,839 and we strongly recommend it. We've had her on the podcast twice. I 273 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:11,400 think yes. But the other books were fantastic too, American Autopsy by doctor 274 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:18,400 Michael Boden, The Murders of Moissville by Javier Sinay, The Science of Murder, 275 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:23,400 The Forensics of Agatha Christie, Oh Yeah, great, Carla Valentine, 276 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:30,559 and Unmasked My Life Solving America's Cold Cases, written by Paul Holes. I 277 00:19:30,599 --> 00:19:33,160 don't know about you, but I thought Paul Holes is going to win because 278 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:40,079 he's so beloved by the crime con community. The question they asked me a 279 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:45,319 week or so before crime Con was Catherine Miles can't be there, She's committed 280 00:19:45,319 --> 00:19:52,200 to being elsewhere. Would you cover for her in case she wins m and 281 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:56,279 I said yes, of course. I think Kate's book is wonderful and she's 282 00:19:56,319 --> 00:20:00,599 a good friend and I'm happy to cover for her. So I was going 283 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:04,480 to accept on her behalf if she won. But in my little mind, 284 00:20:04,559 --> 00:20:08,480 I'm thinking Paul Hols's book is going to win, so this is a no 285 00:20:08,599 --> 00:20:18,200 brainer. So we get to the Clue Awards themselves and someone else comes up 286 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:23,000 to us. One of the producers for Dateline NBC said to me she was 287 00:20:23,039 --> 00:20:26,440 seated at our table. She said, Hey, they were looking for you 288 00:20:26,519 --> 00:20:33,440 backstage, and I was like why. And apparently, by the evening of 289 00:20:33,519 --> 00:20:38,000 the event, they actually know who's going to win. Now they couldn't say 290 00:20:38,039 --> 00:20:42,240 that, but they said, oh, they're looking for you backstage, and 291 00:20:42,279 --> 00:20:48,079 I'm like why. I don't know anything about this, and apparently I was 292 00:20:48,079 --> 00:20:52,000 supposed to be backstage. So it gets to the place where the Book of 293 00:20:52,079 --> 00:20:57,960 the Year is going to be announced. They're announcing television series and podcasts and 294 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:04,119 documentary and all the different categories and it's very exciting. Fantastic productions and content 295 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:11,039 are winning. We'll get to the best book, and it's Catherine Miles trailed 296 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:18,440 that wins. And I'm like, holy blank, now what do I do. 297 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:23,279 I'm not backstage where I'm supposed to be. And now I'm realizing why 298 00:21:23,319 --> 00:21:27,279 they wanted me to be backstage, and I didn't track that. Anyone had 299 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:30,680 asked you, why aren't you backstage? Why? That didn't track for me. 300 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:37,440 No, no, And it didn't really track for me either. So 301 00:21:37,559 --> 00:21:42,680 then they announced Catherine Miles and I feel like the original deer in the headlights 302 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:47,720 and I'm like, I guess a better goal there are except the award on 303 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:53,000 her behalf. But there was like what felt like an eternal pause on my 304 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:59,480 part when I'm like, I guess I better get up there. Jumped up 305 00:21:59,519 --> 00:22:03,000 on stage, not seeing that there were stairs over to the side. So 306 00:22:03,079 --> 00:22:07,319 I jumped up, and these two guys that were handing out the awards sort 307 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:08,960 of looked at me, like, who's this guy in y is he bum 308 00:22:10,079 --> 00:22:15,480 rushing stage? Because he sure doesn't look like Catherine Miles and I said. 309 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,559 I looked at them and they were a little alarmed, and I said, 310 00:22:18,839 --> 00:22:22,880 no, this is real. And then I turned to the microphone and they 311 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:30,400 had told me to please introduce myself and thank everyone on Kate's behalf, and 312 00:22:30,559 --> 00:22:34,079 I think I made a reasonably coherent comment or too. And then the idea 313 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,400 was that I was supposed to throw it to a video because Kate and a 314 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:42,559 few other winners that couldn't be there had recorded videos in case they won. 315 00:22:44,279 --> 00:22:48,200 Yeah, and in this case Kate had a very nice video. She thanked 316 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:52,680 everybody, and then we texted her, I think afterwards, and said see 317 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,079 And while you were up there, I was busily texting Kate, going, 318 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:57,119 oh my god, you won. You wan? Oh my god, Kate, 319 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:03,079 you won. She didn't get back to me on Messenger. No, 320 00:23:03,319 --> 00:23:07,000 I think she was out that evening. She must have been because and I 321 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:11,519 posted photos of me and you with the Clue Awards, along with a couple 322 00:23:11,559 --> 00:23:15,200 of other selfies that we got, and I tagged her and I said congratulations 323 00:23:15,519 --> 00:23:18,839 to Kate Miles and Jessica Nol on their wins, and she wrote one comment, 324 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:23,240 she wrote, wait, I won, what girl? Yes, you 325 00:23:23,319 --> 00:23:27,599 really did win. I think you won. Check your messages. And I 326 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:32,920 didn't hear from her until the morning, because she wrote to me and said, 327 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,440 oh, this was the nicest thing to wake up to. And this 328 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:40,920 would have been Sunday morning, but we were sending her messages Saturday night. 329 00:23:41,039 --> 00:23:44,400 Oh my god. Yeah. Admittedly on the late side, and maybe she 330 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:48,000 was in bed by then. I don't know. It was very funny, 331 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,079 but it was really it was really cool. Now. I know, because 332 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:55,000 you're mister mister fancy Hollywood. Due to the stars, I know that you've 333 00:23:55,039 --> 00:23:59,160 been to bigger award shows than the Clue Award. You've been to the Academy 334 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,319 Awards, right, I've been to the Academy Awards several times. I've been 335 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,759 to the god So, I've been to the Oscars. I've been to the 336 00:24:06,799 --> 00:24:11,799 Grammys numerous times. I've never been to the Golden Globes, which everybody says 337 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:15,559 is really fun because apparently people have a lot to drink at the Golden Globes. 338 00:24:15,599 --> 00:24:22,319 It's not taken quite as seriously as the Oscars are. But yes, 339 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:23,960 I think you've been to the big stuff. Yeah, I've been to the 340 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:27,119 big stuff. You've been to the big stuff. So like for me where 341 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:30,640 I was like, oh, this is really fancy and cool, I'm sure 342 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,599 you were like, yo, whatever, I've been to the Academy Awards and 343 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:37,440 look, it's all good. And remember this is only I think the second 344 00:24:37,519 --> 00:24:41,079 year for the Clue Awards. Yeah. And last year I said this after 345 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:48,759 the Crime Con in Las Vegas, I was incredibly impressed with how professional the 346 00:24:48,839 --> 00:24:56,519 presentation the Clue Awards was. It was like a very well run award show 347 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:02,720 with video clips and professional and now ulcers and a host, and it was 348 00:25:03,039 --> 00:25:06,599 extremely well done. I thought it was going to be two hundred people in 349 00:25:06,599 --> 00:25:10,759 one of the smaller breakout rooms, and it was a thousand people in a 350 00:25:10,799 --> 00:25:15,200 gigantic ballroom in a very slick, and I mean that in a positive way 351 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:19,920 presentation. It looked really cool. It did. And also dessert was top 352 00:25:21,039 --> 00:25:25,359 notch. I love it. If you're going to fall off the wagon, 353 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:30,559 have it be really good. Yeah, the salad was okay. The main 354 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:36,200 course was pretty decent, but like the dessert, y'all, the dessert was 355 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:40,000 amazing and I enjoyed the hell out of it. That was great. But 356 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,079 our moms would be proud of us for eating our salads too. Yes, 357 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,759 we did. We ate everything on my plate and then it was like we 358 00:25:45,759 --> 00:25:48,680 were all, like everybody at the table, we were like, but when 359 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,640 can we have the dessert because it was their first course. Yeah, Like 360 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,440 it was sitting out there along with the water glasses and everything. So yeah, 361 00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:00,720 that was a lot of fun. You're listening to Mine over Murder. 362 00:26:00,759 --> 00:26:07,680 We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 363 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:11,559 mindover Murder. Of course, we stayed out way too late with the Middleman's. 364 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,759 Yeah, when you have a chance to hang out with the Othram people 365 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:22,279 and they're so smart and they're so much fun. And I'm talking about David 366 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:26,119 and Kristian Middleman and a good portion of their team, all of whom were 367 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,319 incredibly nice, and I had a chance to meet some of the people that 368 00:26:30,599 --> 00:26:37,200 do the actual forensic genetic genealogy and yeah with Charisma, Yeah, And when 369 00:26:37,319 --> 00:26:40,200 I met Charisma and others, I was like, we are not worthy, 370 00:26:40,319 --> 00:26:42,160 We are not worthy, and they were laughing, but I said, look, 371 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:48,279 this is really important work. Yeah, we have a lot of respect 372 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:52,319 for the folks that are solving cold cases across the country. And it was 373 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,119 really fun to meet them. And of course we stayed out way too late 374 00:26:56,279 --> 00:27:03,119 Saturday night, like one morning. By the time I'm pretty sure, I 375 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:07,279 like, right around one thirty, when you're our age, even if you 376 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:11,559 haven't been drinking, everything feels hysterical. Well, and I had been slightly 377 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:15,720 buzzy. We had Yeah, we hadn't had. No, I don't drink, 378 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:21,160 Bill rarely drank, rarely drink. But even if I was going to 379 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,519 have a drink, I knew I had to be up early the next morning 380 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,039 and I was supposed to be in hair and makeup at a thirty in the 381 00:27:26,039 --> 00:27:30,559 morning, and I felt pretty hungover. And this is for a guy that 382 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:34,680 didn't have anything to drink. I really like, I have not had a 383 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,640 single thing to drink. But I'd also been sitting there with Charisma and we 384 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:45,119 were fangirling over Paul Has there we go. You were ever having conversations with 385 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,759 other people, but Charisma and I were sitting there looking at pictures of Paul 386 00:27:48,799 --> 00:27:52,920 Holes. And I feel ashamed for saying that, But at the same time 387 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:56,279 as Paul Holes. Would this be a bad time for me to mention that 388 00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:00,519 I had sat with Paul Holes at the cluel Wards last year? I remember 389 00:28:00,559 --> 00:28:04,319 that you did. Yes, I remember that you did, but you remember 390 00:28:04,599 --> 00:28:08,759 very much. So you told me you sat with that you sat with Paul 391 00:28:08,799 --> 00:28:11,920 Holes, And I could have that could have been me if I had been 392 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,119 your plus one, but I was exhausted and hungover from vegas over stimulation. 393 00:28:15,519 --> 00:28:22,000 Really, the Paul Halls opportunity was there, I know, I am. 394 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,559 I'm just gonna have to wait for fortunity to knock again and again. I 395 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:30,720 think it's going to be my lot to keep going to crime Con until you 396 00:28:30,839 --> 00:28:36,480 meet not meeting Paul Holes. I will make it my goal to make sure 397 00:28:36,519 --> 00:28:41,480 that you meet Paul Holes if I can facilitate such a meeting. I'm saying 398 00:28:41,599 --> 00:28:45,240 because otherwise I'm going to have to wear a shirt to crime Con that said, 399 00:28:45,319 --> 00:28:48,680 this is my fourth crime Con and I have yet to meet Paul Holes. 400 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,559 And I will call out Mac, and I will call out the Middlemans, 401 00:28:52,559 --> 00:28:56,640 and I will call out you have not yet met Poules, And I 402 00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:00,920 am salty about it. Everybody who purports to know this man, who's fair 403 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:07,279 in you? And it's I literally, legitimately just we know. Jim Clemente 404 00:29:07,319 --> 00:29:10,640 is my great, big FBI crush. Yes, I do not have. 405 00:29:10,839 --> 00:29:14,799 I just think Paul is an amazing investigator, and I would just like to 406 00:29:14,799 --> 00:29:18,559 be able to tell him honestly and legitimately in person, your work is amazing, 407 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:23,039 your book was fantastic. You are just an amazing, stellar human being. 408 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,599 Thank you for being that. Does it hurt that he's cute? No? 409 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:30,000 But what I I just want to tell him in person. I think 410 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:34,039 he's absolutely amazing and all of that. I do not, like so many 411 00:29:34,119 --> 00:29:37,799 other women at crime Con, I want to tear his shirt off or anything 412 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:41,359 like that. I'm sorry that that reaches a point of objectification that I'm like, 413 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:45,519 I don't, let's not. I just want to tell him I think 414 00:29:45,559 --> 00:29:49,319 he's cool. This is it is, it is. But that was something 415 00:29:49,359 --> 00:29:52,759 though, that we talked about after Crime con Vegas, Yes, which was 416 00:29:52,799 --> 00:29:57,519 that there is a scary amount of male objectification that people are okay with, 417 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:02,160 whereas we would not be cool if it was a group of guys doing it 418 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:07,880 to women. No, And I actually think that's fair because I think men 419 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,599 do that a lot. And I'm not saying I've never done it either, 420 00:30:11,319 --> 00:30:15,799 just because the roles are reversed and it's the women objectifying a man. You're 421 00:30:15,839 --> 00:30:18,599 absolutely right. If the guys were doing it to a woman, I think 422 00:30:18,599 --> 00:30:22,359 a lot of women would say, oh, really, come on, dial 423 00:30:22,359 --> 00:30:25,880 it down here. Yeah. Yeah, And there was an awful lot of 424 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:30,880 that at the Vegas Crime cont a year ago. Yeah, definitely, after 425 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,240 an evening at the Clue Awards in which we got back way too late. 426 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:38,319 You had to go get ready for your panel on Sunday morning, and so 427 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:42,720 tell our amazing listeners who may not have been able to get to your panel 428 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,960 what you were speaking about. Oh, thank you. We were on Sunday 429 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,480 morning at nine o'clock, just early, and this was put on by the 430 00:30:51,599 --> 00:30:56,240 National Center for the Victims of Crime, and we had an absolutely terrific panel 431 00:30:56,279 --> 00:30:59,400 and a great discussion, and we'll link to it in the show notes. 432 00:31:00,119 --> 00:31:03,960 Nay Williams, who is the executive director of the National Center, was our 433 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:07,839 moderator. We had a terrific panel, I thought. Kathy Kleiner Rubin spoke 434 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:14,200 and offered her perspective as a survivor of Ted Bundy, and Brian Anton spoke 435 00:31:14,359 --> 00:31:19,400 as a journalist. He covered a tremendous amount of true crime stories, especially 436 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:23,440 in the last year. Brian Anton from News Nation spoke and he talked about 437 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:29,680 the balance he looks for in true crime stories, and he's expected to go 438 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:33,880 out there and aggressively report on these stories, but he also understands that we're 439 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:38,160 talking about there are victims here, there are survivors. These are people that 440 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,559 are going through what is likely going to be the worst day of their lives, 441 00:31:41,759 --> 00:31:47,359 and certainly he wants to be as considerate as possible. And I spoke 442 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:52,279 as a survivor whose sister has been murdered in a still unsolved murder case. 443 00:31:52,599 --> 00:31:57,200 I also offered some challenges to the people in the room. I said Jordan, 444 00:31:57,279 --> 00:32:02,119 it was that everyone there go to the Virgin Booth, for example, 445 00:32:02,279 --> 00:32:07,400 and make sure that if they were comfortable with this, that their DNA was 446 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:14,440 available on the searchable DNA websites. We had a great discussion. I think 447 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,400 the four of us really had had a good time. Renee had put together 448 00:32:17,599 --> 00:32:24,319 eight simple rules for being an ethical true crime fanatic. It's a great catchy 449 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:29,559 concept. Yeah. I'll even read them and we'll put them up in our 450 00:32:29,599 --> 00:32:32,640 show notes as well. Number one, there is no victimless true crime. 451 00:32:34,279 --> 00:32:37,160 We have to remember this isn't a fictional story. This isn't us just watching 452 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,359 a movie and the whole thing is made up. Number two, there's no 453 00:32:40,559 --> 00:32:49,400 timeline for trauma. Number three, investigate, Investigate, investigate. Number four 454 00:32:49,759 --> 00:32:53,799 I like this one a lot. Require the presence of victims voices. Yes, 455 00:32:54,119 --> 00:32:58,960 so that you're not just telling someone else's story. You're letting victims and 456 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:04,559 survivors tell their own story. Do no harm. This is something that Brian 457 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,960 Nitton talked about. He's always trying to make sure he's going to go out 458 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:13,039 and aggressively get the story, but not harm the victims or survivors respect boundaries. 459 00:33:13,079 --> 00:33:16,920 Was number six, don't fall victim to true crime. That all of 460 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:22,640 us need to be aware of our surroundings and we don't want to be the 461 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:29,319 next story that's told on true crime television, podcasts, books. Yeah, 462 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:35,960 and then finally number eight, turn your interest into impact, try to turn 463 00:33:36,039 --> 00:33:39,079 things around in a positive way. I thought it was a great structure, 464 00:33:39,119 --> 00:33:43,079 as you said, Kristen, and a great way to jump off into a 465 00:33:43,119 --> 00:33:46,759 good discussion. Rend did a fantastic job as moderator. It was a real 466 00:33:46,839 --> 00:33:51,359 honor to be asked to be included in the panel. Yeah, it was 467 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:53,880 fantastic. And could you see where I was? Did you see me in 468 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:58,839 the for row? It's real hard. A number of people mentioned this, 469 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,160 and of course I presented it crime Con several times. Now you're in these 470 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:07,720 big ballrooms and it's dark in the ballroom and very intensely litt on stage so 471 00:34:07,839 --> 00:34:10,159 they can see and that they've got TV cameras in the back so you can't 472 00:34:10,199 --> 00:34:15,000 really see the audience very well. I was curious because you did manage to 473 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,360 point right at me like you must have either you must have seen me or 474 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:21,159 heard me or something, But you knew where I was. You can see 475 00:34:21,199 --> 00:34:24,719 the first row or two of people. After that, once you get past 476 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:30,159 about two rows, it gets real dark and you can't see. So I 477 00:34:30,199 --> 00:34:34,039 had an idea where you were. But yeah, because I was over. 478 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,880 I was over in like the media section on one side, and I was 479 00:34:37,159 --> 00:34:39,840 I was doing the best job that I could try to get some decent photos, 480 00:34:40,599 --> 00:34:44,599 which I thought you did. I thought your photography was great as usual. 481 00:34:45,119 --> 00:34:49,320 That was a really well done presentation. It was great where it was 482 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,840 on the glass Bock stage. But I do think that when we're talking about 483 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:59,079 these sort of overarching themes of how to be an ethical true crime consumer, 484 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,000 I feel like that actually could have benefited more people on a bigger stage. 485 00:35:02,199 --> 00:35:06,760 I really think like more people should have heard it. Maybe Sunday morning at 486 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,480 nine o'clock is not an ideal time, it's that ideal time. Now, 487 00:35:09,639 --> 00:35:14,920 there were panels, as you mentioned earlier, that there were two thousand people 488 00:35:15,159 --> 00:35:20,639 in some of those gigantic ballrooms, But those are topics that are really hot 489 00:35:20,679 --> 00:35:24,360 and ocurant. You're not going to have a panel that it doesn't cover the 490 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:30,639 Idaho four case, or the Delphi case or some of these other really big, 491 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:37,000 super high profile cases that Gaby Petito murder. Things like that, and 492 00:35:37,159 --> 00:35:39,599 lots of other topics I'm probably not even thinking of that are going to bring 493 00:35:39,639 --> 00:35:45,840 out thousands of people into a ballroom. I don't know about eight simple rules 494 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,800 for being an ethical true crime fanatic. I do think the more people that 495 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,760 see a presentation like that. We tried to make it so that we were 496 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:59,199 having a great discussion without feeling like we were waving our finger in anyone's face, 497 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,079 and it turned out very well, like it was pitch perfect. And 498 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:07,119 I do remember at one point you had made not off color comment, but 499 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:09,360 like an off the cuff comment, and you said, Okay, I'll get 500 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:13,119 down from my soapbox now, and somebody in the audience yelled, no, 501 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:15,519 stay up on your soapbox. Oh yeah. I was like, all right, 502 00:36:15,599 --> 00:36:21,599 yeah, good, that's right. Everybody seemed very receptive to it, 503 00:36:21,679 --> 00:36:24,119 and there was nobody like, oh so, fussn't it me? Like it 504 00:36:24,159 --> 00:36:28,800 really did seem to go over very well. There's been a lot of discussion 505 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:34,519 in the last couple of years, and Julie Murray and Sarah Turney and Kelsey 506 00:36:34,599 --> 00:36:39,639 Jerman did an outstanding panel along these lines. Yeah, last year at crime 507 00:36:39,679 --> 00:36:44,880 Con. I think actually Renee Williams may have moderated that one as well. 508 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:49,360 I think it's healthy to have that kind of discussion at crime Con. As 509 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,800 we talked about in the last episode. There's a strong entertainment component to all 510 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:58,000 of this stuff. I get that, and look, I watch true crime 511 00:36:58,199 --> 00:37:02,119 and consume true crime podcast and books and articles and you name it. There's 512 00:37:02,159 --> 00:37:07,320 lots of other cases that we are following, and I get the fact that 513 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,559 people are interested in true crime because of the mystery of it and trying to 514 00:37:10,639 --> 00:37:16,119 understand how these things can happen, hopefully learning something and building our own awareness. 515 00:37:16,159 --> 00:37:21,639 So, like we talked about don't fall victim to true crime, including 516 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:28,239 a conversation like this about being an ethical true crime fan is important, even 517 00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:31,119 if it doesn't necessarily mean that two thousand people are going to pack a ballroom 518 00:37:31,559 --> 00:37:37,559 now. I'll bet if we had Paul Holes on our panel gotten even more 519 00:37:37,639 --> 00:37:44,280 people. I think the conversation is a healthy one, and we had discussed 520 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,719 it with the four of us in advance. We did a conference call together, 521 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:51,039 a zoom call, and we agreed we didn't want it to feel like 522 00:37:51,119 --> 00:37:53,360 a lecture. We wanted it to be fun. And I said I was 523 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:57,679 going to say some things that were challenging, and Renee Williams said, go 524 00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:00,719 right ahead. Because one of the things I wanted to do was urge people 525 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:06,360 for example, just a simple step you can all take is to make your 526 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:12,599 DNA available to the searchable DNA databases jedmatch and family Tree DNA. And not 527 00:38:12,679 --> 00:38:17,199 everybody realizes that. They might think their participation in ancestry or twenty three in 528 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:21,960 me or my heritage is enough, when the truth is you need to take 529 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,440 that profile and put it over on the jed match database so that law enforcement 530 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:30,679 can legally use your DNA to help solve cases. I think when you're talking 531 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:35,000 to a room full of people that are true crime fans that actually do want 532 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,400 to help law enforcement solve cases, there's a simple step that we can all 533 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:42,760 take. Those are the reason why I jumped up on the soapbox a few 534 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,800 times. Yeah, very much worth thinking about. And Renee made the point 535 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:51,119 that I think certainly the general public doesn't think about this, maybe more so 536 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:55,000 people who do watch true crime. She was mentioning the Dahmer TV series, 537 00:38:55,400 --> 00:39:00,199 of course, and the fact that when stuff like that gets made, the 538 00:39:00,199 --> 00:39:05,320 families aren't always informed. There are choices that are made for ratings rather than 539 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:10,199 for sensitivity toward family and victims. I think it's important that people think about 540 00:39:10,199 --> 00:39:15,519 that. I remember last year with my group of AP students. When Dahmer 541 00:39:15,599 --> 00:39:17,880 came out, A couple of my kids had asked me, are you watching 542 00:39:19,079 --> 00:39:21,719 and I said, no, I'm not going to watch that. And when 543 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:25,079 they asked why, and I told them family members were not consulted this, 544 00:39:25,159 --> 00:39:28,960 that, and the other thing. I explained some of these issues, every 545 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:32,880 single one of them looked a little gobsmacked, and they all said I hadn't 546 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:37,119 thought about that. They were like, that never would have crossed my mind. 547 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:39,840 And I think it's good to bring that to light. And I also 548 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:44,519 like the fact that when Renee talked about making sure you don't fall victim to 549 00:39:44,559 --> 00:39:47,000 true crime, I like that she meant in the sense of being situationally aware. 550 00:39:47,039 --> 00:39:51,320 But she also was pointing out too that this is something that like, 551 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:52,840 if you spend too much time in it, and you and I both know 552 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:59,440 this, it becomes depressing, It can become triggering. Brian Aton was talking 553 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:01,519 about the th a lot of times people who report on a case for a 554 00:40:01,519 --> 00:40:07,679 really long time can get secondary PTSD as a result of the things that you're 555 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:12,280 watching and being exposed to and reporting on. I think it's important for people 556 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:15,559 to realize that no matter how often you may want to go home on a 557 00:40:15,599 --> 00:40:19,440 Saturday night or Friday night and do murder shows and comfy clothes. That's maybe 558 00:40:19,519 --> 00:40:24,519 not the most healthy approach when you're giving a daily dose of major true crime 559 00:40:24,599 --> 00:40:28,840 all the time. And I like that she mentioned that as well. I 560 00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:30,880 think it's important because there are plenty of times. Did I come home with 561 00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:35,840 four new books from Crime Con? Absolutely? Am I going to sit there 562 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,159 and read them one after the other. I can't. It will hurt me. 563 00:40:38,559 --> 00:40:44,360 It's not good for anybody's mental wellness to continually overdose on that stuff. 564 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:46,800 So I like the fact that she mentioned that as well. You guys did 565 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,599 a wonderful job on that panel. I really enjoyed it. Well, thank 566 00:40:50,639 --> 00:40:52,599 you, and I think it was a great discussion to have. And as 567 00:40:52,639 --> 00:40:57,400 I said, I was very pleased to be asked to participate. If that 568 00:40:57,559 --> 00:41:02,280 helps change the conversation or get people thinking about how to approach true crime in 569 00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:06,599 a thoughtful way, I think that's I think that's great. So we had 570 00:41:06,639 --> 00:41:12,039 an amazing time at Crime Con, except for one of us left Orlando a 571 00:41:12,079 --> 00:41:15,840 little worse for the wearer than the other of us. Oh yes, that's 572 00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:22,679 right, there's that thing. There's that awful little coda to everything that happened, 573 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:24,719 and it was we had wrapped up over at crime con. Bill wanted 574 00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:28,800 to stay a little bit longer to talk to some people, which is fine. 575 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:30,480 I wanted to go back to the hotel and get in some time at 576 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:35,480 the pools. Went in, got some pool time. Bill called me and 577 00:41:35,519 --> 00:41:37,360 said, hey, let's go grab some dinner. And there wasn't a whole 578 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:43,400 ton of choices nearby, so we went with the olive garden because I figured 579 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:47,480 that's probably pretty safe. The olive garden is not safe if you get seafood 580 00:41:47,559 --> 00:41:52,719 at this particular location, prepared by this particular group of people. I have 581 00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:54,760 no steak. I'm not trying to be rude about this, but I got 582 00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:59,239 food poisoning from the olive garden. Oh boy, got food poisoning from the 583 00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:01,719 olive garden. I'm not going into detail or anything about it, but I 584 00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:05,679 will say that I was very concerned at one point that I wasn't going to 585 00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:08,119 be able to get on the plane to travel the next morning. I felt 586 00:42:08,159 --> 00:42:13,480 awful and I was really worried I wasn't going to be able to get to 587 00:42:13,519 --> 00:42:17,079 the airport and get my baggage over to where it needed to go, and 588 00:42:17,079 --> 00:42:20,360 I was worried I wasn't going to be able to walk through the terminal. 589 00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:24,519 Even though poor Bill had been up for days and days straight, had nearly 590 00:42:24,639 --> 00:42:30,480 enough sleep, was probably exhausted. At six o'clock in the morning on Monday 591 00:42:30,519 --> 00:42:32,639 morning, when I'm sure he definitely would have wanted to sleep later, I 592 00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:37,719 called him and very pitifully said, I have food poisoning. Can you please 593 00:42:37,199 --> 00:42:43,480 just drive with me to the airport. And this very sweet man did exactly 594 00:42:43,519 --> 00:42:45,920 that. He didn't even question me. He just said, let me put 595 00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:49,360 on some clothes, I will be right there. And so my very kind 596 00:42:49,559 --> 00:42:53,039 and wonderful podcast partner went with me to the airport in an uber and made 597 00:42:53,079 --> 00:42:57,519 sure that I got there safely and made sure that my luggage got loaded and 598 00:42:57,559 --> 00:43:00,159 I got checked in and everything. And then I hope you've got some sleep. 599 00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:04,119 Were you able to go get some more sleeper? Did I wake you? 600 00:43:04,159 --> 00:43:07,480 For the whole rest of the day, there was no point, That's 601 00:43:07,519 --> 00:43:12,960 okay. It was the worst. I'm so sorry. I was worried about 602 00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:15,280 you, and I was on a little bit later flight. Kristen's flying back 603 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:19,599 to Virginia. I'm flying back to Connecticut, so we're not on the same 604 00:43:19,599 --> 00:43:22,440 plane, and we were a couple of hours apart in terms of our departure. 605 00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:25,599 By the time you got to the airport, not that you were feeling 606 00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:30,079 a lot better, but you said you were strong enough. And then I 607 00:43:30,199 --> 00:43:35,960 had a suggestion. You had a great suggestion, don't tell them you're sick, 608 00:43:36,119 --> 00:43:38,639 because they won't let you get on the airplane. We were pretty certain 609 00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:43,239 it wasn't COVID, it was food poisoning. I wasn't sick, but we 610 00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:46,760 had lightly different dinners. I had said, tell them you twisted your ankle, 611 00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:51,960 because that way they're not going to be thinking she's contagious, she's got 612 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:55,519 COVID or whatever. You're runner, and you have twisted your ankle at different 613 00:43:55,559 --> 00:44:00,880 points in your running career, and so it wasn't that much of a stretch. 614 00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:04,800 Yeah, And it's I didn't think I was going to be able. 615 00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:07,920 I didn't think my legs were going to hold me, and so I knew 616 00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:10,800 that I was going to probably need somebody to help me with a wheelchair get 617 00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:16,239 me across the Orlando airport, which is new and also massive, but it's 618 00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:20,880 gigantic. It's crazy. But as Bill did rightfully point out, if they 619 00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:22,519 know you're sick, they're not going to let you on the airplane. So 620 00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:25,880 I did have my ankle brace with me. I put my ankle brace on, 621 00:44:27,159 --> 00:44:29,440 and I say, and it's right, it's not a lie. I 622 00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:31,960 do have a bad ankle. It wasn't bothering me that day. No. 623 00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:37,000 I expediently exaggerated a little bit. And they were so nice, Like there 624 00:44:37,079 --> 00:44:40,960 was the sweetest lady who helped me. She put me in a wheelchair. 625 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:45,760 And I was so embarrassed to have to need a wheelchair that I was crying 626 00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:49,400 like I was. I was sobbing. I was so upset. And the 627 00:44:49,519 --> 00:44:52,320 sweet lady she was like, it's okay, mommy, I'm gonna get you 628 00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:55,840 on the plane. And she like she was so helpful. She helped get 629 00:44:55,880 --> 00:45:00,079 my bag through. That's what you needed because I wasn't going to be able 630 00:45:00,079 --> 00:45:04,480 to go through security with you. Now, you weren't going to be able 631 00:45:04,519 --> 00:45:07,639 to And I just it was my legs were just I was not strong enough 632 00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:12,679 to have gotten myself across that much of the terminal. It was just there 633 00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:15,719 is so much room in the new terminal. I couldn't have made it good 634 00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:22,199 alternative story to get you through and get you safely on the airplane. But 635 00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:24,679 it did ultimately, Thank goodness. I had a direct flight, so once 636 00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:28,199 I was at the gate, all I had to do was get onto the 637 00:45:28,199 --> 00:45:31,960 plane. I had paid extra in advance so that I could have front seat, 638 00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,239 and so I was able to get there. And then by the time 639 00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:38,599 I got home to Williamsburg, after I got back to Richmond, rather I 640 00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:42,519 had ginger all on the plane, I'd been able to have a cracker or 641 00:45:42,519 --> 00:45:45,840 two and that was enough to get me to the point where I could get 642 00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:50,440 my luggage, take the long walk to my car, and then and only 643 00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:54,400 then once I was back home, did I collapse into utter insensibility and sleep 644 00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:58,440 for like hours and hours. But it was not a great way to end 645 00:45:58,519 --> 00:46:02,159 crime Con. Everything that led up to it was good, so I can 646 00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:06,880 I'll just chalk that one up too, Oh man, I'll chalk that one 647 00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:10,079 up to a minor inconvenience and just hope it works out better for Nashville. 648 00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:15,320 I'm sure it will. I hope our report on crime Con hasn't sounded like 649 00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:20,159 a commercial for crime Con, but it is an amazing experience, and if 650 00:46:20,159 --> 00:46:23,719 it's something you've ever thought about doing. It's definitely worth checking out. Absolutely 651 00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:29,559 and again, we cannot thank enough our fans, our supporters, everybody who 652 00:46:29,679 --> 00:46:31,039 showed up, and we're just like, hey, thank you so much for 653 00:46:31,079 --> 00:46:35,599 the work that you're doing. We really appreciate it. We love being able 654 00:46:35,639 --> 00:46:37,920 to provide this to you, so thank you very much. All of your 655 00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:42,960 support and your well wishes means a lot to us. We couldn't do this 656 00:46:43,079 --> 00:46:45,280 without you. That is going to do it for this episode of mind Never 657 00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:50,199 Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time. 658 00:47:00,119 --> 00:47:06,400 Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers 659 00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:10,320 are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 660 00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:16,000 Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership 661 00:47:16,039 --> 00:47:21,559 with crawl Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or 662 00:47:21,639 --> 00:47:25,400 Instagram. You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, 663 00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:30,960 and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five 664 00:47:30,119 --> 00:47:35,000 six. Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.