You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas.
I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now
trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other
victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway
murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with
Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher,
a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media
manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in
crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and
I'm Bill Thomas. We're back continuing our coverage of crime con with our after
Action Report, and we certainly hope you enjoyed our first episode in which we
talked about just about anything and everything related to crime. God, We're going
to try to be a little more focused by the judging by the number of
people who came and said hello to us, who said that they listened to
the podcast. I think there's probably people out there who do enjoy our chaos.
I don't think of as as chaotic. That is true about just the
wonderful mix of thoughtful true crime conversation. Here we go, thoughtful true crime
conversation. Indeed, I really was just and I don't think that we said
it enough last episode, or at least I didn't say it well enough last
episode. Thank you to everybody who showed up and who talked to us,
who listens to us already and wanted to get selfies or wanted to just say
hello. It means so much, And it's still a little surreal to me
the people actually recogniz It's a little weird that having people recognize me or know
my voice or both. And they wanted your autograph, which I know is
something you were a little blown away by. That's still a little weird to
me. Yeah. I remember at one point I was over at the is
at one of the water filling stations. It was getting a cup of water.
Someone I thought maybe it was someone I knew, but I guess it
wasn't. It was just a random fan. They came up. They were
like, don't you hate it when you can't even go get a sip of
water without a fan bothering you. And it was somebody I had never met
before. But it's weird because I'm sitting here going Most of the people who
see me on a day to day basis, I e. My students find
me vastly underwhelming and just can't wait to get away from me. I find
it a little weird that there were people who actually want to, like,
say hello, get a selfie, get an autograph. It's all overwhelming.
Why not? Absolutely, I think it's good for you, And definitely Bill.
In the times that you were not at the booth because you were off
zipping or doing what else, doing whatever else it was for doing, they
sent me a schedule and they said you have to be here and here,
so I did. The number of times that people came up to the booth
and were very, very concerned that you were not there. It was like
there were two women who came up and I'm sure that they I'm sure that
they just really wanted their picture with you, but they were like, when
is Bill going to be back? And I said pretty soon. They were
like, we really want to see Bill, And I was like, well
you, and I think I must have looked a little taken aback because they
were like, we really want our pictures with Bill, and I was like,
we'll be back, and one of them was like, we'd love to
meet you too, but is Bill going to be back? Yes, okay,
yes, Bill will be back, I promise, oh man. Saturday
really ends up being the biggest day at Crime Con, and I'd say that
it was the biggest in terms of attendance. It was the only day where
I'd felt crowded. It was pretty packed both with events and fantastic discussion and
a ton of people. There were a lot of people there. My big
thing for Saturday was definitely Doctor Burgess's panel. Like I mentioned last episode of
Salty, last episode about Paul Hols, I'm gonna be Salty, this episode
about what happened with doctor Burgess's book signing. Do you remember, oh I
did? Please tell the story though I brought from Virginia because I am a
total nerd. The very large and Heavy crime classification manual that doctor Burgess wrote
with John Douglas. It's a tome, as they would say it is.
She wrote it with John Douglas and several other of the good folks at the
profiling Unit in Quantaco, and I brought it with me because I really wanted
her to sign it. And so after her panel, I popped back to
the booth, grabbed the crime classification manual, and Hippie hopped my way over
to her book signing and I got in right at the end of the line,
and I was like, okay, Like I wasn't at the front of
the line, I wasn't in the middle, but at least I'm here.
And a couple of minutes later, after another say, ten to fifteen people
showed up, they shut the line right behind those fifteen people. I was
like, Okay, this is going to take a while, but good,
I'm here. And it did take a while to go through. And it's
mainly because instead of just having people sign the books, it's signed the book.
Okay, post for selfie and I'll post for another one. Yeah,
And I feel like that is a problem if you want to get a number
of people through the line. I waited impatiently, but I waited, and
so I was in line for an hour, and right around the hour mark,
those of us who are at the back of the line are chatting with
each other and talking about various other things, and right around the hour mark,
someone came out and said, we're sorry, doctor Burgess has to be
somewhere else, like she had an interview that she got double booked for,
and they were like, so we can only let this first row of people
go in, and we were like four rows of people away from doctor Burgess
and so they were like, we're sorry, but that's it. She looked
really taken aback by it, and she was like, noah, I'll wait.
She was like, I want to sign everybody's book, like they're all
waiting for me, standing in line to pay their work and ask for your
autograph. Yeah, and she was like no, I want to do it.
And then she was like is there and they were like, no,
you have to be at this other interview. You're already scheduled. And yeah.
She said, is there another way? Is there another time when I
can come back and do this, because I really want they're waiting for me,
and they were like, sorry, that's just not possible. So I
was really pretty ticked off about it. And if I had been thinking properly,
I probably could have flashed my podcast or badge and given her the stack
of podcast swag from us that I had for her. If I'd been thinking
about it, I would have done it. I was so ticked off that
they shut the line and I had to go all the way back to Virginia
with my very heavy copy of crime Classification Manual that I did not get signed
by doctor Burgess, but not in her because she couldn't help it. And
I can also think there have to be ways to speed up those lines.
For example, if hundreds of people are going to wait in line, then
they need to have people hand like in this example, hand and Burgess the
book, book or whatever they want to have her sign, and they need
to hand their phone to somebody else who would click a selfie for them.
You could cut the time required for each interaction in half. And clearly wants
to say hello to her fans. She wants to greet as many people as
possible, sign books or whatever it is that she's being asked to sign and
take pictures. But you've got to figure out a way to build it enough
time so that everyone in the room who's there, we're not talking about late
comers here, they have the ability to go up, say hi, and
spend a moment or two with her and get their picture taken and get their
autograph or whatever it is they're seeking. There's got to be a way to
do it faster. And like a lot of things, I actually find myself
studying different aspects of life and thinking, is there the way we could do
this better, faster, more efficiently. And I think for some cases like
this, when you've got hundreds of people waiting, it may have to be
I'm sorry, you can't do a selfie, right, you can do a
signature or hand you can, yeah, signature or selfie, but not both.
You can hand her something or whatever. But it really would have helped
because the line was moving so slowly because of here's a book, she's signing
it, talking to people. Okay, now come around the table, do
your photo. Oh that photo didn't work, Let's do another one. Okay,
move on, you know, I just sign it. I think we
could combine those two things. While she's signing the book, she can look
up and the person sneaks around behind her. They both look up a smile,
and you do both things at the same time. Yeah, just an
idea. So that was I'd say probably my greatest disappointment of Crime Con was
that I did not get a chance to see doctor Ann and let her know
thank you for being on the podcast. We appreciate it, and can you
please sign this book. I was really upset about it, I know.
And then you didn't see her at any other point over the weekend. No,
unfortunate. Like I was talking to I was talking to one of our
fans, I think it was Rachelle. Came up to the table later and
she said she'd stopped by earlier and she hadn't seen me, And I said,
I was in doctor Burgess's line. And then I was like, but
I got cut and I'm a little upset about that, and she goes,
oh, I just saw her checking out at the checkout desk. I bet
if you hurry you could probably get her. And I was like, oh,
no, I'm not going to be able to And I wasn't. I
was not going to dash off and away from one of our fans to go
chase after doctor Anne. That would not have been cool. Although at a
different point you did chase after a well known television personality, am I correct?
Yes, And that was not on my own behalf. That was on
behalf of a friend of mine. So one of my very good friends who
was not able to make it to Crime Con is a real life friend of
Josh Mankowitz, and she had said to me, I can't make it,
but I would I love it if you could shoot a little short video for
Josh where I don't know, maybe you guys say hi from crime Con or
professor undying love for me or something like that. Can you do that?
And because she has had such a spectacularly awful couple of weeks, right,
I was like, I absolutely want to make sure that I do this,
and so all day long I was looking for Josh Mankowitz. And you can
tell where Josh Mekowitz and Paul Holes and Keith Morrison are at any given point
during crime Con because they have a line of women following them. I played
a small part here because you did. Yes, don't look now, but
I think your man, Josh Mankowitz from Dateline NBC just went that away and
you were like, I'll be right back. Yes, it was well spotted
on your part because I wasn't paying close enough attention, and I pelted it
out after him and I yelped very unprofessionally Josh, and he turned around and
you could tell this is the face of a man who had been pursued by
women wanting selfies all day long. Yeah, he was sick of it.
He was sick of it. Yes, So I said, I'm and I
named my friend. I'm not going to name her here, but I named
her and I said I'm her friend. And he goes, oh, we
have to do the video. He was like, okay, cool, like
he knows he understands the assignment. But I'm telling you. As soon as
I said, probably too loudly, hey gosh, there were five or six
imcinity who turned around and they were making a beeline for Josh. At the
same time I was I'm like, crap, I have thirty seconds to do
this, and so I just real quick, I'd like tamp down all my
nerves. I flipped the camera on. I was like, hey, it's
Kristen from Crime con look who I found. Turned it to Josh and he
waved and said hello, and then I turned the camera back to me and
I said, love you so much, see you soon. And not even
five seconds after I closed that up, a woman shoved her camera at me
and she goes take a picture of me with Josh, and I was like,
excuse you, I'm not even done talking to him yet. What is
your damage? But as I recall, your mutual friend had some rough moments
recently and you were wanting to both of you were wanting to send her some
good wishes and that you were thinking of her. Because Josh seemed completely okay
with saying hi to your mutual friend, and he even said, oh,
the video, Yeah, let's do the video, and it was a really
sweet thing to do. He even has a nickname at Crime Con. They
call him the Mayor of Crime Town because everybody knows the folks from Daylight NBC.
They do so much true crime coverage. When someone like Josh makes their
way through, everybody's head turns because he's a very well known figure, especially
in the true crime space. On Sunday morning, when you were getting prepared
for your panel and I was hanging out with Mike Morpford and Jess Beton Corn
were getting ready to open our respective booze, we were about ten minutes out
from the doors being open, and we started hearing all of this giggling and
carrying on, and then the doors fulling open and this whole gaggle of people
get a running start and they're racing for the Dateline booth in the back of
the podcast row Oh only thing I could think of. Jess and Mike and
I are like watching this, We're like, is Josh Makowitz actually back there
right now? And it was like, no, I think it was just
that people with there were bingo cards. There were those Mayor of Crime con
buttons that I managed to score for my friend, but I had to beg
for it because they were technically out of buttons, but I had to beg
for it first, and I had to flash the podcaster badge. And then
there was a full size Josh Macowood stand up back there that people were taking
photos with. I think people were headed for the Dateline booth, but there
was an actual run on the doors, and Mike, Jess and I were
looking going, what in that? Wow? Really? Oh my god?
Run amok? It really like the fandom. The amount of fandom around certain
people really is crazy, which is why, like I said, Paul Holes
allegedly apparently has to stay off property because otherwise people are going to book rap
out of them. It is crazy. So yeah, Josh, I think
this is totally my idea. Kevin can take it if he wants to if
you're listening, Kevin, you can definitely take this idea. I think that
next year there should be a runoff election for mayor of Crime Con. Is
it going to be Josh Mankowitz, Keith Morrison, Nancy Grace or Paul Holes.
There needs to be a runoff election and a voting system and then not
a coronation. What do you call it an inauguration? You never know.
Hey, if you've got Kevin's details, let me know. I will send
that to him. Think it's a great idea. It's a good idea.
All this is going on while I'm in hair and makeup before my panel.
Wait, did they actually put you in hair and makeup for real? No?
They they took care of the women. They looked at us guys,
and went kept right on going. They don't know that much to worked with
hair and makeup time for me. Oh my gosh. Yeah that so that?
Yeah, that run on the doors was right before you went on.
But before Sunday morning, we got to attend a really cool I was gonna
say it was an exclusive gala, but there were about a thousand other people
in the room, so maybe not that exclusive. Which one are you referring
to the Clue Aboards. Yeah, you got all dressed up, though,
and you looked fairs I did. I don't normally get dressed up. But
as soon as you asked me earlier in the year, do you want to
be my plus one for the Clue Awards? I missed it last year in
Vegas because I was exhausted and over stimulated and I didn't want to bother.
Yeah, So this year I was like, yes, absolutely, and I
figured it's a good excuse to buy a dress. I do not get dressed
up often because I don't like making a fuss over myself that way. Like
that was fine when I was in my twenties, but I'm forty two now
and I don't feel like I need or want to do that. But I
made a point of going out to buy a nice dress. I bought a
pair of heels that I don't think I will ever be able to walk in
again satisfactorily, but they will. It was great. It was it was
fun. Now full disclosure, I'm a judge for Crime Con. They asked
me a couple of years ago would I evaluate podcasts, So they send me
a dozen different podcasts. It can't be anything that we're affiliated with and obviously
you wouldn't judge your own work or anything like that, but they send you
a dozen different podcasts and you have to listen to them and you have to
evaluate what you think of the content, and they give you specific criteria and
one of the things they're looking for is does this podcast treat victims and survivors
of serious crime respectfully? That's one of the criteria. And they ask about
production values and the content itself, so you're evaluating them on a scale,
and then you also offer your thoughts about what you think of the podcast.
They're all very good there. There was nothing that was bad and a lot
of them are actually well known podcasts, but there were new day there were
new ones too. Yeah, and it's it's a lot of work, but
it's something I like to do because I like to help crime con in any
way that I can as a result of being a judge. We were invited
to the Clue Awards and it was a lot of It was a lot of
fun. We ended up waiting in line to get into the Clue Awards with
Kathy Kleiner and her husband Scott, and they were absolutely magnificent, wonderful,
sweet people, and so we got a blast just sitting there and talking with
them and hanging out. And the two of the bolt extremely funny, and
Scott's got this very dry sense of humor, and of course he's always joking
about he's Kathy's plus one because a look a lot of people, especially at
that place like crime Con, they know Kathy Kleiner Rubin from her story of
surviving Ted Bundy, and she had a brand new book that had just come
out, Kathy Kleiner A Light in the Dark Surviving More Than Ted Bundy,
which just was coming out at Crime Con. Yeah, and so they were
really fun to hang out with. But then when it got time to be
seated, we were seated elsewhere. We got up near the front because we're
VIPs. You're a VIP and I'm your ZIP plus one. And then something
else happened, which really threw me off. They had reached out to me
a week or so before Crime Con and said that our friend Catherine Miles' book
Trailed, which is about the Shenandoah murders of Julie Williamson. Lolly Wyan's,
was up for Best Book of the Year. Now, Kate's book is amazing
and we strongly recommend it. We've had her on the podcast twice. I
think yes. But the other books were fantastic too, American Autopsy by doctor
Michael Boden, The Murders of Moissville by Javier Sinay, The Science of Murder,
The Forensics of Agatha Christie, Oh Yeah, great, Carla Valentine,
and Unmasked My Life Solving America's Cold Cases, written by Paul Holes. I
don't know about you, but I thought Paul Holes is going to win because
he's so beloved by the crime con community. The question they asked me a
week or so before crime Con was Catherine Miles can't be there, She's committed
to being elsewhere. Would you cover for her in case she wins m and
I said yes, of course. I think Kate's book is wonderful and she's
a good friend and I'm happy to cover for her. So I was going
to accept on her behalf if she won. But in my little mind,
I'm thinking Paul Hols's book is going to win, so this is a no
brainer. So we get to the Clue Awards themselves and someone else comes up
to us. One of the producers for Dateline NBC said to me she was
seated at our table. She said, Hey, they were looking for you
backstage, and I was like why. And apparently, by the evening of
the event, they actually know who's going to win. Now they couldn't say
that, but they said, oh, they're looking for you backstage, and
I'm like why. I don't know anything about this, and apparently I was
supposed to be backstage. So it gets to the place where the Book of
the Year is going to be announced. They're announcing television series and podcasts and
documentary and all the different categories and it's very exciting. Fantastic productions and content
are winning. We'll get to the best book, and it's Catherine Miles trailed
that wins. And I'm like, holy blank, now what do I do.
I'm not backstage where I'm supposed to be. And now I'm realizing why
they wanted me to be backstage, and I didn't track that. Anyone had
asked you, why aren't you backstage? Why? That didn't track for me.
No, no, And it didn't really track for me either. So
then they announced Catherine Miles and I feel like the original deer in the headlights
and I'm like, I guess a better goal there are except the award on
her behalf. But there was like what felt like an eternal pause on my
part when I'm like, I guess I better get up there. Jumped up
on stage, not seeing that there were stairs over to the side. So
I jumped up, and these two guys that were handing out the awards sort
of looked at me, like, who's this guy in y is he bum
rushing stage? Because he sure doesn't look like Catherine Miles and I said.
I looked at them and they were a little alarmed, and I said,
no, this is real. And then I turned to the microphone and they
had told me to please introduce myself and thank everyone on Kate's behalf, and
I think I made a reasonably coherent comment or too. And then the idea
was that I was supposed to throw it to a video because Kate and a
few other winners that couldn't be there had recorded videos in case they won.
Yeah, and in this case Kate had a very nice video. She thanked
everybody, and then we texted her, I think afterwards, and said see
And while you were up there, I was busily texting Kate, going,
oh my god, you won. You wan? Oh my god, Kate,
you won. She didn't get back to me on Messenger. No,
I think she was out that evening. She must have been because and I
posted photos of me and you with the Clue Awards, along with a couple
of other selfies that we got, and I tagged her and I said congratulations
to Kate Miles and Jessica Nol on their wins, and she wrote one comment,
she wrote, wait, I won, what girl? Yes, you
really did win. I think you won. Check your messages. And I
didn't hear from her until the morning, because she wrote to me and said,
oh, this was the nicest thing to wake up to. And this
would have been Sunday morning, but we were sending her messages Saturday night.
Oh my god. Yeah. Admittedly on the late side, and maybe she
was in bed by then. I don't know. It was very funny,
but it was really it was really cool. Now. I know, because
you're mister mister fancy Hollywood. Due to the stars, I know that you've
been to bigger award shows than the Clue Award. You've been to the Academy
Awards, right, I've been to the Academy Awards several times. I've been
to the god So, I've been to the Oscars. I've been to the
Grammys numerous times. I've never been to the Golden Globes, which everybody says
is really fun because apparently people have a lot to drink at the Golden Globes.
It's not taken quite as seriously as the Oscars are. But yes,
I think you've been to the big stuff. Yeah, I've been to the
big stuff. You've been to the big stuff. So like for me where
I was like, oh, this is really fancy and cool, I'm sure
you were like, yo, whatever, I've been to the Academy Awards and
look, it's all good. And remember this is only I think the second
year for the Clue Awards. Yeah. And last year I said this after
the Crime Con in Las Vegas, I was incredibly impressed with how professional the
presentation the Clue Awards was. It was like a very well run award show
with video clips and professional and now ulcers and a host, and it was
extremely well done. I thought it was going to be two hundred people in
one of the smaller breakout rooms, and it was a thousand people in a
gigantic ballroom in a very slick, and I mean that in a positive way
presentation. It looked really cool. It did. And also dessert was top
notch. I love it. If you're going to fall off the wagon,
have it be really good. Yeah, the salad was okay. The main
course was pretty decent, but like the dessert, y'all, the dessert was
amazing and I enjoyed the hell out of it. That was great. But
our moms would be proud of us for eating our salads too. Yes,
we did. We ate everything on my plate and then it was like we
were all, like everybody at the table, we were like, but when
can we have the dessert because it was their first course. Yeah, Like
it was sitting out there along with the water glasses and everything. So yeah,
that was a lot of fun. You're listening to Mine over Murder.
We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at
mindover Murder. Of course, we stayed out way too late with the Middleman's.
Yeah, when you have a chance to hang out with the Othram people
and they're so smart and they're so much fun. And I'm talking about David
and Kristian Middleman and a good portion of their team, all of whom were
incredibly nice, and I had a chance to meet some of the people that
do the actual forensic genetic genealogy and yeah with Charisma, Yeah, And when
I met Charisma and others, I was like, we are not worthy,
We are not worthy, and they were laughing, but I said, look,
this is really important work. Yeah, we have a lot of respect
for the folks that are solving cold cases across the country. And it was
really fun to meet them. And of course we stayed out way too late
Saturday night, like one morning. By the time I'm pretty sure, I
like, right around one thirty, when you're our age, even if you
haven't been drinking, everything feels hysterical. Well, and I had been slightly
buzzy. We had Yeah, we hadn't had. No, I don't drink,
Bill rarely drank, rarely drink. But even if I was going to
have a drink, I knew I had to be up early the next morning
and I was supposed to be in hair and makeup at a thirty in the
morning, and I felt pretty hungover. And this is for a guy that
didn't have anything to drink. I really like, I have not had a
single thing to drink. But I'd also been sitting there with Charisma and we
were fangirling over Paul Has there we go. You were ever having conversations with
other people, but Charisma and I were sitting there looking at pictures of Paul
Holes. And I feel ashamed for saying that, But at the same time
as Paul Holes. Would this be a bad time for me to mention that
I had sat with Paul Holes at the cluel Wards last year? I remember
that you did. Yes, I remember that you did, but you remember
very much. So you told me you sat with that you sat with Paul
Holes, And I could have that could have been me if I had been
your plus one, but I was exhausted and hungover from vegas over stimulation.
Really, the Paul Halls opportunity was there, I know, I am.
I'm just gonna have to wait for fortunity to knock again and again. I
think it's going to be my lot to keep going to crime Con until you
meet not meeting Paul Holes. I will make it my goal to make sure
that you meet Paul Holes if I can facilitate such a meeting. I'm saying
because otherwise I'm going to have to wear a shirt to crime Con that said,
this is my fourth crime Con and I have yet to meet Paul Holes.
And I will call out Mac, and I will call out the Middlemans,
and I will call out you have not yet met Poules, And I
am salty about it. Everybody who purports to know this man, who's fair
in you? And it's I literally, legitimately just we know. Jim Clemente
is my great, big FBI crush. Yes, I do not have.
I just think Paul is an amazing investigator, and I would just like to
be able to tell him honestly and legitimately in person, your work is amazing,
your book was fantastic. You are just an amazing, stellar human being.
Thank you for being that. Does it hurt that he's cute? No?
But what I I just want to tell him in person. I think
he's absolutely amazing and all of that. I do not, like so many
other women at crime Con, I want to tear his shirt off or anything
like that. I'm sorry that that reaches a point of objectification that I'm like,
I don't, let's not. I just want to tell him I think
he's cool. This is it is, it is. But that was something
though, that we talked about after Crime con Vegas, Yes, which was
that there is a scary amount of male objectification that people are okay with,
whereas we would not be cool if it was a group of guys doing it
to women. No, And I actually think that's fair because I think men
do that a lot. And I'm not saying I've never done it either,
just because the roles are reversed and it's the women objectifying a man. You're
absolutely right. If the guys were doing it to a woman, I think
a lot of women would say, oh, really, come on, dial
it down here. Yeah. Yeah, And there was an awful lot of
that at the Vegas Crime cont a year ago. Yeah, definitely, after
an evening at the Clue Awards in which we got back way too late.
You had to go get ready for your panel on Sunday morning, and so
tell our amazing listeners who may not have been able to get to your panel
what you were speaking about. Oh, thank you. We were on Sunday
morning at nine o'clock, just early, and this was put on by the
National Center for the Victims of Crime, and we had an absolutely terrific panel
and a great discussion, and we'll link to it in the show notes.
Nay Williams, who is the executive director of the National Center, was our
moderator. We had a terrific panel, I thought. Kathy Kleiner Rubin spoke
and offered her perspective as a survivor of Ted Bundy, and Brian Anton spoke
as a journalist. He covered a tremendous amount of true crime stories, especially
in the last year. Brian Anton from News Nation spoke and he talked about
the balance he looks for in true crime stories, and he's expected to go
out there and aggressively report on these stories, but he also understands that we're
talking about there are victims here, there are survivors. These are people that
are going through what is likely going to be the worst day of their lives,
and certainly he wants to be as considerate as possible. And I spoke
as a survivor whose sister has been murdered in a still unsolved murder case.
I also offered some challenges to the people in the room. I said Jordan,
it was that everyone there go to the Virgin Booth, for example,
and make sure that if they were comfortable with this, that their DNA was
available on the searchable DNA websites. We had a great discussion. I think
the four of us really had had a good time. Renee had put together
eight simple rules for being an ethical true crime fanatic. It's a great catchy
concept. Yeah. I'll even read them and we'll put them up in our
show notes as well. Number one, there is no victimless true crime.
We have to remember this isn't a fictional story. This isn't us just watching
a movie and the whole thing is made up. Number two, there's no
timeline for trauma. Number three, investigate, Investigate, investigate. Number four
I like this one a lot. Require the presence of victims voices. Yes,
so that you're not just telling someone else's story. You're letting victims and
survivors tell their own story. Do no harm. This is something that Brian
Nitton talked about. He's always trying to make sure he's going to go out
and aggressively get the story, but not harm the victims or survivors respect boundaries.
Was number six, don't fall victim to true crime. That all of
us need to be aware of our surroundings and we don't want to be the
next story that's told on true crime television, podcasts, books. Yeah,
and then finally number eight, turn your interest into impact, try to turn
things around in a positive way. I thought it was a great structure,
as you said, Kristen, and a great way to jump off into a
good discussion. Rend did a fantastic job as moderator. It was a real
honor to be asked to be included in the panel. Yeah, it was
fantastic. And could you see where I was? Did you see me in
the for row? It's real hard. A number of people mentioned this,
and of course I presented it crime Con several times. Now you're in these
big ballrooms and it's dark in the ballroom and very intensely litt on stage so
they can see and that they've got TV cameras in the back so you can't
really see the audience very well. I was curious because you did manage to
point right at me like you must have either you must have seen me or
heard me or something, But you knew where I was. You can see
the first row or two of people. After that, once you get past
about two rows, it gets real dark and you can't see. So I
had an idea where you were. But yeah, because I was over.
I was over in like the media section on one side, and I was
I was doing the best job that I could try to get some decent photos,
which I thought you did. I thought your photography was great as usual.
That was a really well done presentation. It was great where it was
on the glass Bock stage. But I do think that when we're talking about
these sort of overarching themes of how to be an ethical true crime consumer,
I feel like that actually could have benefited more people on a bigger stage.
I really think like more people should have heard it. Maybe Sunday morning at
nine o'clock is not an ideal time, it's that ideal time. Now,
there were panels, as you mentioned earlier, that there were two thousand people
in some of those gigantic ballrooms, But those are topics that are really hot
and ocurant. You're not going to have a panel that it doesn't cover the
Idaho four case, or the Delphi case or some of these other really big,
super high profile cases that Gaby Petito murder. Things like that, and
lots of other topics I'm probably not even thinking of that are going to bring
out thousands of people into a ballroom. I don't know about eight simple rules
for being an ethical true crime fanatic. I do think the more people that
see a presentation like that. We tried to make it so that we were
having a great discussion without feeling like we were waving our finger in anyone's face,
and it turned out very well, like it was pitch perfect. And
I do remember at one point you had made not off color comment, but
like an off the cuff comment, and you said, Okay, I'll get
down from my soapbox now, and somebody in the audience yelled, no,
stay up on your soapbox. Oh yeah. I was like, all right,
yeah, good, that's right. Everybody seemed very receptive to it,
and there was nobody like, oh so, fussn't it me? Like it
really did seem to go over very well. There's been a lot of discussion
in the last couple of years, and Julie Murray and Sarah Turney and Kelsey
Jerman did an outstanding panel along these lines. Yeah, last year at crime
Con. I think actually Renee Williams may have moderated that one as well.
I think it's healthy to have that kind of discussion at crime Con. As
we talked about in the last episode. There's a strong entertainment component to all
of this stuff. I get that, and look, I watch true crime
and consume true crime podcast and books and articles and you name it. There's
lots of other cases that we are following, and I get the fact that
people are interested in true crime because of the mystery of it and trying to
understand how these things can happen, hopefully learning something and building our own awareness.
So, like we talked about don't fall victim to true crime, including
a conversation like this about being an ethical true crime fan is important, even
if it doesn't necessarily mean that two thousand people are going to pack a ballroom
now. I'll bet if we had Paul Holes on our panel gotten even more
people. I think the conversation is a healthy one, and we had discussed
it with the four of us in advance. We did a conference call together,
a zoom call, and we agreed we didn't want it to feel like
a lecture. We wanted it to be fun. And I said I was
going to say some things that were challenging, and Renee Williams said, go
right ahead. Because one of the things I wanted to do was urge people
for example, just a simple step you can all take is to make your
DNA available to the searchable DNA databases jedmatch and family Tree DNA. And not
everybody realizes that. They might think their participation in ancestry or twenty three in
me or my heritage is enough, when the truth is you need to take
that profile and put it over on the jed match database so that law enforcement
can legally use your DNA to help solve cases. I think when you're talking
to a room full of people that are true crime fans that actually do want
to help law enforcement solve cases, there's a simple step that we can all
take. Those are the reason why I jumped up on the soapbox a few
times. Yeah, very much worth thinking about. And Renee made the point
that I think certainly the general public doesn't think about this, maybe more so
people who do watch true crime. She was mentioning the Dahmer TV series,
of course, and the fact that when stuff like that gets made, the
families aren't always informed. There are choices that are made for ratings rather than
for sensitivity toward family and victims. I think it's important that people think about
that. I remember last year with my group of AP students. When Dahmer
came out, A couple of my kids had asked me, are you watching
and I said, no, I'm not going to watch that. And when
they asked why, and I told them family members were not consulted this,
that, and the other thing. I explained some of these issues, every
single one of them looked a little gobsmacked, and they all said I hadn't
thought about that. They were like, that never would have crossed my mind.
And I think it's good to bring that to light. And I also
like the fact that when Renee talked about making sure you don't fall victim to
true crime, I like that she meant in the sense of being situationally aware.
But she also was pointing out too that this is something that like,
if you spend too much time in it, and you and I both know
this, it becomes depressing, It can become triggering. Brian Aton was talking
about the th a lot of times people who report on a case for a
really long time can get secondary PTSD as a result of the things that you're
watching and being exposed to and reporting on. I think it's important for people
to realize that no matter how often you may want to go home on a
Saturday night or Friday night and do murder shows and comfy clothes. That's maybe
not the most healthy approach when you're giving a daily dose of major true crime
all the time. And I like that she mentioned that as well. I
think it's important because there are plenty of times. Did I come home with
four new books from Crime Con? Absolutely? Am I going to sit there
and read them one after the other. I can't. It will hurt me.
It's not good for anybody's mental wellness to continually overdose on that stuff.
So I like the fact that she mentioned that as well. You guys did
a wonderful job on that panel. I really enjoyed it. Well, thank
you, and I think it was a great discussion to have. And as
I said, I was very pleased to be asked to participate. If that
helps change the conversation or get people thinking about how to approach true crime in
a thoughtful way, I think that's I think that's great. So we had
an amazing time at Crime Con, except for one of us left Orlando a
little worse for the wearer than the other of us. Oh yes, that's
right, there's that thing. There's that awful little coda to everything that happened,
and it was we had wrapped up over at crime con. Bill wanted
to stay a little bit longer to talk to some people, which is fine.
I wanted to go back to the hotel and get in some time at
the pools. Went in, got some pool time. Bill called me and
said, hey, let's go grab some dinner. And there wasn't a whole
ton of choices nearby, so we went with the olive garden because I figured
that's probably pretty safe. The olive garden is not safe if you get seafood
at this particular location, prepared by this particular group of people. I have
no steak. I'm not trying to be rude about this, but I got
food poisoning from the olive garden. Oh boy, got food poisoning from the
olive garden. I'm not going into detail or anything about it, but I
will say that I was very concerned at one point that I wasn't going to
be able to get on the plane to travel the next morning. I felt
awful and I was really worried I wasn't going to be able to get to
the airport and get my baggage over to where it needed to go, and
I was worried I wasn't going to be able to walk through the terminal.
Even though poor Bill had been up for days and days straight, had nearly
enough sleep, was probably exhausted. At six o'clock in the morning on Monday
morning, when I'm sure he definitely would have wanted to sleep later, I
called him and very pitifully said, I have food poisoning. Can you please
just drive with me to the airport. And this very sweet man did exactly
that. He didn't even question me. He just said, let me put
on some clothes, I will be right there. And so my very kind
and wonderful podcast partner went with me to the airport in an uber and made
sure that I got there safely and made sure that my luggage got loaded and
I got checked in and everything. And then I hope you've got some sleep.
Were you able to go get some more sleeper? Did I wake you?
For the whole rest of the day, there was no point, That's
okay. It was the worst. I'm so sorry. I was worried about
you, and I was on a little bit later flight. Kristen's flying back
to Virginia. I'm flying back to Connecticut, so we're not on the same
plane, and we were a couple of hours apart in terms of our departure.
By the time you got to the airport, not that you were feeling
a lot better, but you said you were strong enough. And then I
had a suggestion. You had a great suggestion, don't tell them you're sick,
because they won't let you get on the airplane. We were pretty certain
it wasn't COVID, it was food poisoning. I wasn't sick, but we
had lightly different dinners. I had said, tell them you twisted your ankle,
because that way they're not going to be thinking she's contagious, she's got
COVID or whatever. You're runner, and you have twisted your ankle at different
points in your running career, and so it wasn't that much of a stretch.
Yeah, And it's I didn't think I was going to be able.
I didn't think my legs were going to hold me, and so I knew
that I was going to probably need somebody to help me with a wheelchair get
me across the Orlando airport, which is new and also massive, but it's
gigantic. It's crazy. But as Bill did rightfully point out, if they
know you're sick, they're not going to let you on the airplane. So
I did have my ankle brace with me. I put my ankle brace on,
and I say, and it's right, it's not a lie. I
do have a bad ankle. It wasn't bothering me that day. No.
I expediently exaggerated a little bit. And they were so nice, Like there
was the sweetest lady who helped me. She put me in a wheelchair.
And I was so embarrassed to have to need a wheelchair that I was crying
like I was. I was sobbing. I was so upset. And the
sweet lady she was like, it's okay, mommy, I'm gonna get you
on the plane. And she like she was so helpful. She helped get
my bag through. That's what you needed because I wasn't going to be able
to go through security with you. Now, you weren't going to be able
to And I just it was my legs were just I was not strong enough
to have gotten myself across that much of the terminal. It was just there
is so much room in the new terminal. I couldn't have made it good
alternative story to get you through and get you safely on the airplane. But
it did ultimately, Thank goodness. I had a direct flight, so once
I was at the gate, all I had to do was get onto the
plane. I had paid extra in advance so that I could have front seat,
and so I was able to get there. And then by the time
I got home to Williamsburg, after I got back to Richmond, rather I
had ginger all on the plane, I'd been able to have a cracker or
two and that was enough to get me to the point where I could get
my luggage, take the long walk to my car, and then and only
then once I was back home, did I collapse into utter insensibility and sleep
for like hours and hours. But it was not a great way to end
crime Con. Everything that led up to it was good, so I can
I'll just chalk that one up too, Oh man, I'll chalk that one
up to a minor inconvenience and just hope it works out better for Nashville.
I'm sure it will. I hope our report on crime Con hasn't sounded like
a commercial for crime Con, but it is an amazing experience, and if
it's something you've ever thought about doing. It's definitely worth checking out. Absolutely
and again, we cannot thank enough our fans, our supporters, everybody who
showed up, and we're just like, hey, thank you so much for
the work that you're doing. We really appreciate it. We love being able
to provide this to you, so thank you very much. All of your
support and your well wishes means a lot to us. We couldn't do this
without you. That is going to do it for this episode of mind Never
Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time.
Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers
are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.
Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership
with crawl Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or
Instagram. You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook,
and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five
six. Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.